ADL Director Foxman: Anti-Mosque Rally on 9/11 is ‘Un-American’

US News • Views: 4,515

Adam Serwer talked to Anti-Defamation League director Abe Foxman about the planned September 11 protest against the Park51 Islamic community center in lower Manhattan; we criticized Foxman for his earlier statements, but on the issue of Pamela Geller and her allies (such as Dutch demagogue Geert Wilders) he seems to have regained his balance: ADL’S Abe Foxman denounces anti-mosque rally as ‘un-American’.

On the rally:

I would agree with [Where to Turn], this is not a place for political demonstrations, for advocacy, especially on 9/11. This is a place for memory, for families to be together, to memorialize their loved ones, [to have] a moment of reflection and introspection. For people with political agendas to use the place and the moment for their own interests and their own platforms is desecrating the memory and very sad. Especially if some of the families of the victims are asking, their view should be taken seriously and respected.

Foxman had some harsh words regarding the presence of Wilders, as well as for conservative blogger Pamela Geller and her group Stop Islamization of America, which is organizing the protest:

[Wilders] is a bigot, he’s an anti-Muslim bigot, and one of the demonstrations being called for is being headed by someone who has an anti-Muslim agenda, often under the guise of fighting ‘radical Islam.’ The group vilifies Islamic faith and is engaged in [claiming] there’s a conspiracy to destroy American values, which is nonsense. The organizer in fact has stated that part of her agenda is to help garner support for Wilders, who is a bigot, who has a long record of anti-Muslim bigotry.

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208 comments
1 Kragar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:02:00pm

I predict a suspect incident at the rally

2 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:02:03pm

I am very glad that the ADL got on the right side of this issue.

3 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:03:19pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

I am very glad that the ADL got on the right side of this issue.

after a rocky start…

4 bratwurst  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:03:27pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

I am very glad that the ADL got on the right side of this issue.

I would be happier if they had done so immediately, but better late than never for sure.

5 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:03:39pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

I am very glad that the ADL got on the right side of this issue.

I’m not so sure about that. I still don’t care for Foxman’s original statement on the need to move the mosque. I suspect he’s just pissed because he has some really ugly bedfellows.

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:04:36pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I’m not so sure about that. I still don’t care for Foxman’s original statement on the need to move the mosque. I suspect he’s just pissed because he has some really ugly bedfellows.

At least he’s noticed that.

Thank the Lord for small mercies.

7 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:05:29pm

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

At least he’s noticed that.

Thank the Lord for small mercies.

Whenever taking a stand, make sure to examine who you’re standing alongside…

8 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:05:42pm

Re #2

Finally, got on the right side of this.

Despite Foxman’s earlier gaff, most Jews in America got the idea that you support the basic rights and freedoms of Americans.

The less high minded ones like Foxman, at the very least, have the clue that if they can come for someone else’s religion, they can come for your own.

9 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:06:28pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

re: #4 bratwurst

re: #3 darthstar

See my 8.

I am right with you.

10 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:06:58pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I’m not so sure about that. I still don’t care for Foxman’s original statement on the need to move the mosque. I suspect he’s just pissed because he has some really ugly bedfellows.

I don’t disagree, but sometimes a glance at one’s new comrades can shake one out of an emotional decision into something more reasonable…

Although someone at this level shouldn’t be making that mistake in the first place.

11 Kragar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:07:01pm

re: #7 jamesfirecat

Whenever taking a stand, make sure to examine who you’re standing alongside…

The enemy of my enemy can be complete fuckwits as well.

12 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:07:52pm

re: #8 LudwigVanQuixote

Re #2

Finally, got on the right side of this.

Despite Foxman’s earlier gaff, most Jews in America got the idea that you support the basic rights and freedoms of Americans.

The less high minded ones like Foxman, at the very least, have the clue that if they can come for someone else’s religion, they can come for your own.

Especially if you’re not a joiner.

13 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:09:44pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I’m not so sure about that. I still don’t care for Foxman’s original statement on the need to move the mosque. I suspect he’s just pissed because he has some really ugly bedfellows.

I’m on your side on this. He sounds like he’s trying to moderate, pander, for those who need to hear it… but his original statements don’t speak well for the ADL in general.

14 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:12:12pm

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Truer words were never spoken.

15 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:13:50pm

Islam in America is a modified form anyway

16 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:16:04pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Agreed. This isn’t a “change of heart” it’s more like CYA. It’s basically saying he agrees with the anti-mosque crowd (first statement) but doesn’t like the followers (second statement) still have to give credit for standing up to the bigots.

17 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:17:25pm

Time for a root beer float.

18 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:17:31pm

re: #15 Ojoe

Islam in America is a modified form anyway

Isn’t Islam anywhere a “modified form”? The religion was created over a thousand years ago after all…

19 Kragar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:18:12pm

re: #15 Ojoe

One could make the same arguement of any imported religion.

20 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:18:21pm

I don’t get what this part means:

For people with political agendas to use the place and the moment for their own interests and their own platforms is desecrating the memory and very sad. Especially if some of the families of the victims are asking, their view should be taken seriously and respected.

Their view should be respected in what regard?

21 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:18:42pm

re: #15 Ojoe

Islam in America is a modified form anyway

They’re all modified forms.

22 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:19:19pm

re: #18 jamesfirecat

Sure, but as there are regular old laws here in the USA against blowing things up, etc etc etc, which apply equally to say, Anglicans as well, we just have to live by the rules here, arrest the occasional miscreant, and all will be copacetic.

23 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:20:15pm

re: #19 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

In a way you could say that the good influence of his country does wear off their sharp edges.

24 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:20:23pm

re: #21 elbruce

They’re all modified forms.

Except Pastafarians. Modified starches are treif.

25 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:21:23pm

re: #23 Ojoe

“Of THIS country”

PIMF Sheesh.

26 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:21:40pm

re: #22 Ojoe

Sure, but as there are regular old laws here in the USA against blowing things up, etc etc etc, which apply equally to say, Anglicans as well, we just have to live by the rules here, arrest the occasional miscreant, and all will be copacetic.

Fair enough, I’m just saying your statements seemed odd.

How would you feel said “Christianity in America is a modified form anyway”?

27 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:21:44pm

re: #24 Decatur Deb

Except Pastafarians. Modified starches are treif.

Totally. That, and a high-carb diet is not exactly a road to fitness/

28 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:22:34pm

Pamella Geller tells a joke -

[q] why did the chicken cross the road?
[a] he was beheaded by a Muslim!

Jan Brewer tells a joke -

[q] why did the chicken cross the road?
[a] he was beheaded by a Mexican!

Karmic Inquisitor tells a joke -

[q] why did the chicken cross the road?
[a] to get away from Pam and Jan, because even a pea brained chicken knows that Pamella Geller and Jan Brewer are batshit crazee.

29 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:22:43pm

re: #26 jamesfirecat

Well, modified as compared to the splodeydope version.

Which is what people are worried about.

30 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:23:11pm

re: #19 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

One could make the same arguement of any imported religion.

Nope. The cultists that worship me are still true to original form. But I was here first, so maybe I have an unfair advantage.

31 MJ  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:24:26pm

New Yorkers Want Islamic Center Moved, Poll Finds

Two-thirds of New York City residents want a planned Muslim community center and mosque to be relocated to a less controversial site farther away from ground zero in Lower Manhattan, including many who say they favor the project, according to a New York Times poll.

[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

Here’s the poll:
[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

32 Kragar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:24:31pm

re: #30 Slumbering Behemoth

Nope. The cultists that worship me are still true to original form. But I was here first, so maybe I have an unfair advantage.

I did say imported. The Old Ones exist before and after time.

33 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:24:35pm

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The enemy of my enemy can be complete fuckwits as well.

Yes, but for the most part, American Muslims are not the enemy.

Most Muslims in the US came here to get away from the craziness of their home nations. That is not to say, there is not an odious radical element amongst them, but that is the minority.

We are not talking about people who think the way they do things in Saudi Arabia is great in general.

This is the biggest place where the distinction needs to be made and all of this flap is a massive double edged sword.

On the one hand, you have innocent American Muslims being unfairly lumped in with the dregs of the Middle East. On the other hand, because of the completely correct backlash against the drooling anti-American hordes in the tea-party, talking about the very real threats that still remain in the Middle Est becomes difficult in polite society.

Hamasnicks just proudly gunned down a whole family, including a pregnant woman.

They are proud of it. They call such things a “battle” and a “victory.” They always are the first to do such things whenever there is a hint at a peace talk.

This is as if, those talks will produce any damn thing other than another recitation of untenable demands made by the PLO - sorry Fatah, these are now the “nice” terrorists- and Israel saying no to demands that would be national suicide. America will put on a shit eating grin while it pressures Israel disproportionately to make peace with an interlocutor that does not want peace, and frankly could not deliver it, if they wanted it.

Then many Europeans will blame Israel for being “a bully and” not being good Jews and just dying already - something many in Europe have always wanted anyway.

Even that is too much for the Hamasnicks.

There is really only one way that there will be peace in the middle east.

It is simple. It is truly the only way.

1. The influence and power plays of Saudi Arabia and Iran need to be taken out of the picture. The best way to do that is energy independence.

2. Hamasnicks and the Hezzies and the like need to be hunted down and killed. There is no negotiating with them. They make their views on peace abundantly clear whenever they gun down pregnant women, in order to prevent peace talks.

3. With the trouble makers eliminated or their power reduced, a domestic economy needs to be built for the Palestinians and they need about a generation of education that is not produced by psychotic Islamists.

If we do those three things, there can be peace.

Without them, there will never be peace.

34 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:25:33pm

re: #26 jamesfirecat

How would you feel said “Christianity in America is a modified form anyway”?

I’d have to first ask if you were talking about Catholics, Baptists, Episcopalians, Methodists, Greek Orthodox, Lutherans, Mormons, Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, Quakers, Shakers, Jehovah’s Witnesses, “nondenominationals,” or some other group.

35 Kragar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:26:25pm

re: #33 LudwigVanQuixote

Radical Islamic Extremists were the enemy. Pam and her ilk have shortened that to Islam. Complete fuckwits.

36 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:26:38pm

re: #29 Ojoe

Well, modified as compared to the splodeydope version.

Which is what people are worried about.

I just think it’d be presumptuous to argue that the splodeydope version of Islam is any more what “unmodified” or “true” Islam looks like.

37 Stan the Demanded Plan  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:26:57pm

Charles - check this, I think it was Adam Serwer not Sargent.

Adam Serwer of the American Prospect is guest blogging on The Plum Line this week.

38 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:28:55pm

re: #35 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Radical Islamic Extremists were the enemy. Pam and her ilk have shortened that to Islam. Complete fuckwits.

Radical exttremists are the enemy, that includes Pam and her ilk.

Yes, I’ll keep saying it.

39 Kragar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:29:38pm

re: #38 windsagio

Radical exttremists are the enemy, that includes Pam and her ilk.

Yes, I’ll keep saying it.

I can agree with that statement.

40 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:29:41pm

re: #37 Stanley Sea

Charles - check this, I think it was Adam Serwer not Sargent.

Thanks - I corrected it.

41 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:30:07pm

re: #35 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Radical Islamic Extremists were the enemy. Pam and her ilk have shortened that to Islam. Complete fuckwits.

Exactly.

Radical Islamist Extremists, who are a hell of a lot more common in the M.E .than they are here, are still the enemy.

Unfortunately, the odious actions of fuckwits like Geller and Beck and Fox and the Teabaggs, make saying that simple truth difficult in polite society, lest one get lumped in with them.

The backlash to Geller and Beck is to push yet more failed “talks” that will only put eggs on everyone’s faces.

42 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:30:09pm

re: #33 LudwigVanQuixote

Two out of three ain’t bad.

43 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:32:29pm

re: #38 windsagio

Radical exttremists are the enemy, that includes Pam and her ilk.

Yes, I’ll keep saying it.

You get no debate on people like Pam and Beck and Fox being a very real enemy to America. Further, as far as Americanism and American values are concerned, they are a much bigger threat. They are, after all, here, growing in popularity, have millions of drolling followers and are fixing to take down the very cornerstones of this nation.

But don’t muddle the issue with some clap trap that the Hezzies or Hamas are somehow nice guys, or that there is some moral equivalence to be made. If you do, I will eat you.

44 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:32:38pm

This statement from Foxman may just make Pam’s head explode. Wouldn’t that be nice?

45 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:33:13pm

re: #42 Decatur Deb

Two out of three ain’t bad.

Which two? We have none of them.

46 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:33:42pm

re: #31 MJ

I don’t want any churches built near my house either, but it’s not like I get to vote on that kind of thing. That’s up to zoning officials and regulatory committees.

47 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:35:33pm

re: #45 LudwigVanQuixote

Which two? We have none of them.

I only think we need 1 and 3. Even murderous terrorists get old and tired. Some even get smart. If killing is the answer, better the PA should do it.

48 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:35:36pm

re: #43 LudwigVanQuixote

Did I say I thought anyone was a nice guy? :p

If anything its the opposite!

Just think its harmful and foolish to focus on the Islam aspect of it. Makes you miss your target.

To be perfectly frank, I think the situation in the ME would be almost exactly the same if Mohummed had never lived. Just different symbols on the flags.

49 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:36:18pm

re: #31 MJ

New Yorkers Want Islamic Center Moved, Poll Finds

[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

Here’s the poll:
[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

And that’s the reason we do things in this country according to laws… not American Idol polling standards.

50 Amory Blaine  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:36:28pm

It is interesting how the teabaggers and anti-Muslim crowd are prohibiting signs. Marching throngs of people normally are associated with peace and civil rights movements. It’s as if they are trying to “hide” their message to the general public.

51 Kragar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:36:30pm

re: #45 LudwigVanQuixote

Which two? We have none of them.

According to some posters, any use of force dooms us to an endless cycle of violence, dontcha know?

52 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:37:14pm

re: #46 Slumbering Behemoth

I don’t want any churches built near my house either, but it’s not like I get to vote on that kind of thing. That’s up to zoning officials and regulatory committees.

I walked my wife to her car this morning. She said, “You’re not wearing any clothes.” I said, “Nope. But one neighbor’s already gone to work and the other’s house is mostly blocked by trees, so the chances someone will see me are pretty slim.”

Suffice it to say, I don’t want to live next to a church, either.

53 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:39:11pm

re: #52 darthstar

I walked my wife to her car this morning. She said, “You’re not wearing any clothes.” I said, “Nope. But one neighbor’s already gone to work and the other’s house is mostly blocked by trees, so the chances someone will see me are pretty slim.”

Suffice it to say, I don’t want to live next to a church, either.

i’m sure that the church would consider the feeling mutual//

54 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:39:13pm

re: #47 Decatur Deb

I only think we need 1 and 3. Even murderous terrorists get old and tired. Some even get smart. If killing is the answer, better the PA should do it.

I hear you. But so long as the murderous terrorists are there to destroy any school you build or tear down any public works you create and otherwise keep their own people miserable - so that ironically those people turn to the terrorists - they will prevent 3.

55 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:39:30pm

re: #50 Amory Blaine

It is interesting how the teabaggers and anti-Muslim crowd are prohibiting signs. Marching throngs of people normally are associated with peace and civil rights movements. It’s as if they are trying to “hide” their message to the general public.

Er… I think you are totally missing the point about not bringing signs to the rally.These people feel that they are being “infiltrated” by “agents provocateurs” who are bringing and holding up signs that makes the organizing group look more foolish or racist than they are… the same reason Beck requested his attendees not carry signs… easier to spot the supposed agitators.

That is the reasoning.

56 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:40:04pm

re: #51 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

According to some posters, any use of force dooms us to an endless cycle of violence, dontcha know?

Nobody wants that.

57 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:40:18pm

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Heh. I think that is the phony reasoning. The real reasoning is that they know they have a lot of insane supporters who wave around signs that no one in their right mind fights acceptable.

58 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:40:26pm

re: #51 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

According to some posters, any use of force dooms us to an endless cycle of violence, dontcha know?

If that’s what you want, settle in for a long wait. My people have been at it for 400 years in Ireland, and the Troubles aren’t over.

59 Amory Blaine  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:40:55pm

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Er… I think you are totally missing the point about not bringing signs to the rally.These people feel that they are being “infiltrated” by “agents provocateurs” who are bringing and holding up signs that makes the organizing group look more foolish or racist than they are… the same reason Beck requested his attendees not carry signs… easier to spot the supposed agitators.

That is the reasoning.

Good thing I’ve seen the teabagger interviews and know the truth then.

60 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:41:56pm

re: #57 Obdicut

Heh. I think that is the phony reasoning. The real reasoning is that they know they have a lot of insane supporters who wave around signs that no one in their right mind fights acceptable.

That wasn’t my reasoning, that was the reasoning I heard a radio talk show host relate… I should have said that was one of the reason I had heard.

I wasn’t trying to claim it was accurate or not, just passing on what I heard. I should have made that clearer in my comment.

61 Kragar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:42:01pm

re: #58 Decatur Deb

If that’s what you want, settle in for a long wait. My people have been at it for 400 years in Ireland, and the Troubles aren’t over.

And yet in the mean times, hundreds, if not thousands, of other conflicts have been settled using military solutions along with other diplomatic actions.

62 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:42:05pm

re: #52 darthstar

It’s all about liquor and pr0n for me. The more churches there are in my neighborhood, the further I have to walk to get what I want. Same goes for those damned schools.

63 deranged cat  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:42:39pm

well, this is interesting…

What: It’s time to Restore Truthiness to America!
When: TBA (Ask Stephen Colbert)
Where: TBA
Why: America, we are at a crossroad. Truthiness in this nation is at an all-time low since the inception of the concept was founded by the great American, Stephen Colbert. In its rich history over the past five years, Truthiness has become synonymous with American values such as freedom, honor, and Taco Bell. Recently our nation has suffered a truthiness drain. In fact, untruthiness is as common as measles vaccinations that cause cancer. We as a nation have stopped relying on our emotions and gut. We need to get back to what makes this nation great. Act on impulse not fact. Stop wasting time analyzing and just take what people say on face value. Why think when someone else can think for you. It’s superficial. It’s quick. It’s American. Restore Truthiness now!
How can you help? Spread the word. Tweet, Facebook Like, Join the Facebook Group, Share, Upvote, Do whatever you have to do. Make this be tomorrow’s news!

[Link: www.colbertrally.com…]

64 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:42:43pm

re: #61 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

That would imply that military solutions haven’t been tried in Ireland at various times :p

65 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:42:46pm

If any actual Islamic terrorists have evaded the national security dragnet well enough to be running around loose in this country, they are probably staying awake nights concocting ways to exploit Pam’s crazy-fest. The NY authorities need to put on an extra special security effort, and I have no doubt they will.

66 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:43:30pm

re: #60 Walter L. Newton

Yep.

That’s the propaganda. Not the reasoning.

67 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:44:01pm

re: #62 Slumbering Behemoth

It’s all about liquor and pr0n for me. The more churches there are in my neighborhood, the further I have to walk to get what I want. Same goes for those damned schools.

Remember when Touchdown Jesus/Big Butter Jesus/Drowning Jesus was struck by lightning and burned this summer? Across the street, apparently, is an adult book/video store…didn’t get touched by lightning. Love that story.

68 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:44:04pm

re: #59 Amory Blaine

Good thing I’ve seen the teabagger interviews and know the truth then.

Are you saying tea party members have claimed the request to leave sign at home were in effort to hide their message? It’s possible… (stupid) but possible. I heard it was to isolate the agitators. Again possible…

69 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:44:56pm

re: #66 Obdicut

Yep.

That’s the propaganda. Not the reasoning.

I corrected myself… what would you have me do now? Fast for seven days?

70 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:45:20pm

re: #61 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And yet in the mean times, hundreds, if not thousands, of other conflicts have been settled using military solutions along with other diplomatic actions.

“Settled” usually means “postponed” when you’re talking about the 3 Rs—Real Estate, Religion, and Revenge.

71 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:45:44pm

re: #68 Walter L. Newton

Are you saying tea party members have claimed the request to leave sign at home were in effort to hide their message? It’s possible… (stupid) but possible. I heard it was to isolate the agitators. Again possible…

Watch the interviews…they’re all over the place. The people there not holding signs were filled with the same Obama-is-Hitler rhetoric that they used to have on their signs.

Oh, that’s right…you have a shitty connection, so you don’t watch videos.

72 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:45:59pm

re: #67 darthstar

Remember when Touchdown Jesus/Big Butter Jesus/Drowning Jesus was struck by lightning and burned this summer? Across the street, apparently, is an adult book/video store…didn’t get touched by lightning. Love that story.

And what do you think was the reason behind that?

73 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:46:01pm

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Er… I think you are totally missing the point about not bringing signs to the rally.These people feel that they are being “infiltrated” by “agents provocateurs” who are bringing and holding up signs that makes the organizing group look more foolish or racist than they are… the same reason Beck requested his attendees not carry signs… easier to spot the supposed agitators.

That is the reasoning.

Meh, supposed agitators could just wear crazy T-shirts instead…

74 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:46:22pm

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

And what do you think was the reason behind that?

God loves porn.

75 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:46:26pm

re: #61 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And yet in the mean times, hundreds, if not thousands, of other conflicts have been settled using military solutions along with other diplomatic actions.

“Violence never solved anything? World War I, World War II, “Star Wars,” every Super Bowl…Who says violence never solved anything?”

76 Kragar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:46:35pm

Its almost like different disputes in different parts of world have different outcomes based on regional history, ethnic and religious backgrounds and economic considerations.

Seems like trying to come up with a blanket statement saying what would or wouldn’t work, or what actions should be taken off the table, would ultimately prove to be a collossal waste of time for all parties involved.

77 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:46:42pm

re: #58 Decatur Deb

If that’s what you want, settle in for a long wait. My people have been at it for 400 years in Ireland, and the Troubles aren’t over.

Look I hear what you are saying. But I think you are making a very false parallel if you think about this in terms of Ireland. The tensions and the history involved are entirely different, and so are the cultures.

One real big difference is that goons from the IRA did not believe they get 72 virgins to boff in Heaven if they die while murdering people. The typical Irish person does not embrace his own death.

Another big difference is that the typical Irish person finally got really tired of the destructive cycle and wanted to join the first world. There is an educational and cultural standard there that does not obtain in any nation in the M.E. other than Israel.

Yet another big difference is that frankly, Irish people are vastly more civilized than most cultures in the M.E. You simply can not look at a culture that thinks that honor killings are just fine, or that public decapitation is a family event to take a picnic to, through Western eyes and think that such people will be just like Westerners.

78 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:46:45pm

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

I corrected myself… what would you have me do now? Fast for seven days?

What are you talking about? I didn’t ask you to do anything.

79 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:47:27pm

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

And what do you think was the reason behind that?

80 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:48:04pm

re: #71 darthstar

Watch the interviews…they’re all over the place. The people there not holding signs were filled with the same Obama-is-Hitler rhetoric that they used to have on their signs.

Oh, that’s right…you have a shitty connection, so you don’t watch videos.

Hey cake-brain… what the fuck is your problem? All I did was relate something I heard… all someone else did was relate what they heard, and I listened. I’m not trumpeting either point as fact or fiction. So, back off.

81 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:48:07pm

re: #74 darthstar

God loves porn.

And hates dairy based idolatry.

82 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:48:24pm

re: #77 LudwigVanQuixote

Well that’s pretty unbecoming.

Your prejudice is showing, pretty badly too.

I understand why you hate them, but think!

83 Amory Blaine  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:48:28pm

re: #68 Walter L. Newton

Are you saying tea party members have claimed the request to leave sign at home were in effort to hide their message? It’s possible… (stupid) but possible. I heard it was to isolate the agitators. Again possible…

I’m saying it’s possibly an attempt to hide their straight up bigotry from the squishy middle. When they take a glancing look through their paper and see a generic group of peopl it won’t look as intimidating as some of the signs I’ve seen.

84 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:48:50pm

re: #79 windsagio

85 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:49:02pm

And Windy, what is your problem with my 77? What in that was untrue? I know it disrupts your narrative, but what was untrue?

86 darthstar  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:49:56pm

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

Hey cake-brain… what the fuck is your problem? All I did was relate something I heard... all someone else did was relate what they heard, and I listened. I’m not trumpeting either point as fact or fiction. So, back off.

Okay, so you’re a gossip. I can live with that.

87 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:50:13pm

re: #85 LudwigVanQuixote

It’s hard to describe emotional opinions as true or untrue.

88 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:50:31pm

more coming this computer sucks and ate half my post

89 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:51:09pm

re: #83 Amory Blaine

I’m saying it’s possibly an attempt to hide their straight up bigotry from the squishy middle. When they take a glancing look through their paper and see a generic group of peopl it won’t look as intimidating as some of the signs I’ve seen.

I’m not reading you clearly. I said I heard on a talk show the reason was to prevent agitators from infiltrating the rally with their own troublemaking signs… you said “Good thing I’ve seen the teabagger interviews and know the truth then.” What interview did you see that said the reason for that they asked for no signage was to hide their actual posititons?

90 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:51:49pm

re: #87 windsagio

It is however exceptionally broad-brushed. You’re taking a number of cultural stereotypes and applying them willy-nilly. The best one probably being the ‘more civilized’ one.

You really do think of them as an inferior people, don’t you?

91 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:52:00pm

re: #82 windsagio

Well that’s pretty unbecoming.

Your prejudice is showing, pretty badly too.

I understand why you hate them, but think!

Rather than whining about what I do and do not hate, address the factual content of the post.

Do Islamists believe they get 72 virgins to boff in heaven?

Either they do or they do not.

Are honor killings and public executions common there?

Either they are or they are not?

Does the prevalence of such things -coupled with the enforced degradation of women and a host of other barbaric practices that bring those cultures down obtain or not?


Address the facts before bleating like a moonbat.

92 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:52:01pm

re: #77 LudwigVanQuixote

Look I hear what you are saying. But I think you are making a very false parallel if you think about this in terms of Ireland. The tensions and the history involved are entirely different, and so are the cultures.

One real big difference is that goons from the IRA did not believe they get 72 virgins to boff in Heaven if they die while murdering people. The typical Irish person does not embrace his own death.

Another big difference is that the typical Irish person finally got really tired of the destructive cycle and wanted to join the first world. There is an educational and cultural standard there that does not obtain in any nation in the M.E. other than Israel.

Yet another big difference is that frankly, Irish people are vastly more civilized than most cultures in the M.E. You simply can not look at a culture that thinks that honor killings are just fine, or that public decapitation is a family event to take a picnic to, through Western eyes and think that such people will be just like Westerners.

You do us too much credit—a few generations ago the British kulturkampf had reduced us to bog-dwelling peasants without a working language. You’re right though—conditions in the ME suggest a longer, nastier siege with no guarantee of any good outcome.

93 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:52:44pm

re: #77 LudwigVanQuixote

Look I hear what you are saying. But I think you are making a very false parallel if you think about this in terms of Ireland. The tensions and the history involved are entirely different, and so are the cultures.

One real big difference is that goons from the IRA did not believe they get 72 virgins to boff in Heaven if they die while murdering people. The typical Irish person does not embrace his own death.

Another big difference is that the typical Irish person finally got really tired of the destructive cycle and wanted to join the first world. There is an educational and cultural standard there that does not obtain in any nation in the M.E. other than Israel.

Yet another big difference is that frankly, Irish people are vastly more civilized than most cultures in the M.E. You simply can not look at a culture that thinks that honor killings are just fine, or that public decapitation is a family event to take a picnic to, through Western eyes and think that such people will be just like Westerners.

Maybe those cultures in the M.E. should have some sort of knowledge tests before they go voting in groups like Hamas.

94 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:53:11pm

re: #92 Decatur Deb

In a strange, terrible way, it is probably easier for the Troubles to resolve because Irish culture was so dispersed and attenuated.

I know that’s a terrible thing to say, I hope you understand my meaning.

95 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:53:13pm

re: #85 LudwigVanQuixote

And Windy, what is your problem with my 77? What in that was untrue? I know it disrupts your narrative, but what was untrue?

This part really did it for me…

“Yet another big difference is that frankly, Irish people are vastly more civilized than most cultures in the M.E.”

You’re going out on a ledge there and it leads to some dangerous presumptions if you ask me….

96 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:53:15pm

re: #87 windsagio

It’s hard to describe emotional opinions as true or untrue.

Those are factual statements, calling them names, simply because the truth of them disrupts your moonbat delusions, does nothing to alter their veracity.

Disprove them if you can. If you can not, open your eyes and learn to think.

97 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:53:54pm

re: #93 Walter L. Newton

Maybe those cultures in the M.E. should have some sort of knowledge tests before they go voting in groups like Hamas.

If they did, Hamas would not have been elected, true.

I think we’d find all kinds of support for voting tests for Palestinians, here.

98 Amory Blaine  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:54:21pm

re: #89 Walter L. Newton

I’m not reading you clearly. I said I heard on a talk show the reason was to prevent agitators from infiltrating the rally with their own troublemaking signs… you said “Good thing I’ve seen the teabagger interviews and know the truth then.” What interview did you see that said the reason for that they asked for no signage was to hide their actual posititons?

What I mean by that is:

A. I’m not buying their “infiltrator” reason.

B. I’ve seen many interviews of Teabaggers at their rallies to know that the signs they are trying to hide would not come from infiltrators but in fact from the general body.

99 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:55:51pm

re: #96 LudwigVanQuixote


read further man, that post was accidentally ccut short due to the misplaced mousepad on this crappy laptop.

100 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:56:22pm

re: #99 windsagio

read further man, that post was accidentally ccut short due to the misplaced mousepad on this crappy laptop.

Still dissing WuB’s stuff?
:P

101 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:56:24pm

re: #98 Amory Blaine

What I mean by that is:

A. I’m not buying their “infiltrator” reason.

B. I’ve seen many interviews of Teabaggers at their rallies to know that the signs they are trying to hide would not come from infiltrators but in fact from the general body.

Ok.. I see. I misread you. I was talking about getting my information from an interview I heard, I thought you were countering with something you heard in a interview too.

102 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:56:39pm

re: #94 Obdicut

In a strange, terrible way, it is probably easier for the Troubles to resolve because Irish culture was so dispersed and attenuated.

I know that’s a terrible thing to say, I hope you understand my meaning.

No problem. The Irish who threw off the British were, perversely, anglicized. They also got a good bit of support from the diaspora.

103 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:57:14pm

re: #100 Varek Raith

Still dissing WuB’s stuff?
:P

he’s a cheap bastard!

His tablet screen is awesome tho, its like 24’, amazing resolution, and you can totally draw on it like an easel!

The cats are cute, also.

104 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:57:24pm

re: #93 Walter L. Newton

Maybe those cultures in the M.E. should have some sort of knowledge tests before they go voting in groups like Hamas.

I realize that you think you are being clever, but that is actually a major and recent historical point that supports my argument about a democracy only being as good as its electorate.

Did you really think the brainwashed masses in the Gaza,, where any sane voice was brutally gunned down, and opposition silenced by sending body parts in buckets to families, could possibly have produced any other result in an election?

Thank you for making one of my earlier points for me.

And just to continue the point - the issue with the tea-bags is that they are very much an uneducated hate filled and propaganda driven mass much like the Gazans who supported Hamas.

Thank you very much for finally supporting a correct argument! I didn’t think you had that sort of clear intelligence in you!

105 Amory Blaine  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:57:42pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

Sometimes my desire to be short gets in the way of clarity.

106 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:58:21pm

re: #105 Amory Blaine

You want to be short?!!

(lame I know :p)

107 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:58:33pm

re: #102 Decatur Deb

No problem. The Irish who threw off the British were, perversely, anglicized. They also got a good bit of support from the diaspora.

Indeed. It is difficult to know what would have happened without the support from the US. It is something for us to remember when dealing with Britain, that we really did harbor large funders for terrorist organizations that attacked them.

What a mess is man.

108 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:59:12pm

re: #36 jamesfirecat

Who cares what is official or true, just look at what is, there is plenty to see all around.

109 Amory Blaine  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 3:59:48pm

Cool! Cheech is on Jeopardy.

110 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:00:21pm

re: #95 jamesfirecat

This part really did it for me…

“Yet another big difference is that frankly, Irish people are vastly more civilized than most cultures in the M.E.”

You’re going out on a ledge there and it leads to some dangerous presumptions if you ask me…

Why? Do Irish people murder their daughters if they talk to the wrong boy?

Do Irish people publicly execute people for being gay?

Can most Irish people read?

Is Ireland under the sway of brutal theocrats?

Where is this ledge?

Or is it simply that you think that honor killings, brutal public executions, the belief that murdering people gets you virgins in heaven, and rampant illiteracy are the marks of a civilized society?

Do civilized people cheer and pass out sweets after they gun down pregnant women?

111 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:01:19pm

re: #109 Amory Blaine

Cool! Cheech is on Jeopardy.

Dammit!
No tv at the moment.
:(

112 Amory Blaine  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:02:06pm

re: #111 Varek Raith

Pat Sajak was on yesterday and he just embarassed the other two stars.

113 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:02:20pm

Alrighty, boys and girls. CFB is about to begin and i’m all aflutter. I’m out like disco.

114 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:02:58pm

re: #110 LudwigVanQuixote

They used to be able to make really good-sounding arguments as to why blacks were inferior needed to remain as slaves too.’

115 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:03:19pm

re: #110 LudwigVanQuixote

Why? Do Irish people murder their daughters if they talk to the wrong boy?

Do Irish people publicly execute people for being gay?

Can most Irish people read?

Is Ireland under the sway of brutal theocrats?

Where is this ledge?

Or is it simply that you think that honor killings, brutal public executions, the belief that murdering people gets you virgins in heaven, and rampant illiteracy are the marks of a civilized society?

Do civilized people cheer and pass out sweets after they gun down pregnant women?

I don’t consider myself knowledgeable enough about Ireland or the M.E. to take part part in such an argument.

All I can say for sure is that your argument rubbed me the wrong way.

116 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:04:11pm

re: #90 windsagio

It is however exceptionally broad-brushed. You’re taking a number of cultural stereotypes and applying them willy-nilly. The best one probably being the ‘more civilized’ one.

You really do think of them as an inferior people, don’t you?

Ahh, yet another dodge away from the facts.

I hate anyone who guns down pregnant women and calls it a victory. Yes, indeed such people are animals.

Now that you are done refusing to see the truth,
are honor killings and brutal public executions a reality there or not?

You are not looking at facts. You can call them stereotypes or you can look at photos from the chop chop square in Saudi.

It isn’t a stereotype if it is actually widespread and really happening.

So how how about you take your head out of your ass?

117 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:04:13pm

The IRA civilized???
WTF

118 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:05:28pm

re: #117 Varek Raith

They were decorously placed bombs, and they nearly always phoned ahead of times. When they killed pregnant women, there was no dancing, but the funding of them continued unabated, and those responsible were not turned into the police.

Forgive me if I don’t see that as ‘civilized’ behavior.

119 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:05:31pm

re: #116 LudwigVanQuixote

The facts are that such things happen, and they certainly do. You’re the one who is going along with ‘they’re all like that and they’re inferior!’

Its racist. And ugly.

120 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:06:20pm

re: #114 windsagio

They used to be able to make really good-sounding arguments as to why blacks were inferior needed to remain as slaves too.’

Now you are being an utter asshole.

First off, no one is enslaving the Palestinians or the broader peoples of the ME except for the Mullahs and the brutal dictators that rule there.

Second off, why not look at the facts?

All you have done is send out buzzword after buzzword - and faultily applied in a stupid manner at that, when the reality of the chopped heads, murdered girls, terrorist acts, religious fundamentalism, and general illiterate barbarity remains.

121 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:06:44pm

re: #118 Obdicut

They were decorously placed bombs, and they nearly always phoned ahead of times. When they killed pregnant women, there was no dancing, but the funding of them continued unabated, and those responsible were not turned into the police.

Forgive me if I don’t see that as ‘civilized’ behavior.

Seriously.
I’m flabbergasted.

122 Stan the Demanded Plan  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:07:11pm

re: #120 LudwigVanQuixote

And you LVQ are itching to fight. Clear as day.

123 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:08:25pm

re: #112 Amory Blaine

Pat Sajak was on yesterday and he just embarassed the other two stars.

Have you ever seen Andy Richter’s massive pwnage of Wolf Blitzer? (Dana Delany muddled through in the middle) It was just pathetic. They had to reset Wolf to $1000 from negative just so he could play in Final Jeopardy. It was just so ugly, I kept waiting for a towel to fly across the stage.

124 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:08:27pm

re: #119 windsagio

It’s not racist. It’s culturalist. And it’s partly true, just the way it would have been true to say that blacks, in slavery, were illiterate, superstitious, and uneducated. Because they were.

That doesn’t excuse any sort of treatment of them in any way. They’re still human. However, it is still true that the average Palestinian— really, the average one, not the wild-eyed extremist— believes a large number of slanders about Jews and Israel that are not true.

Look, if we can decry the Republicans for the bullshit they feed their adherents, and we can bemoan the fact that more than fifty percent of GOP members think that Obama wants to promote shariah law, then surely we can also bemoan the fact that Palestinians support Hamas and do not even endorse the legitimacy of Israel as a nation?

125 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:08:38pm

re: #119 windsagio

The facts are that such things happen, and they certainly do. You’re the one who is going along with ‘they’re all like that and they’re inferior!’

Its racist. And ugly.

NO, I hardly said that. The problem with partisans, on the left (like you) and the the right is a deep difficulty in reading comprehension.

I think I was very clear that many Muslims came to America to get away from such things.

So clearly, I don’t think they are all like that.

So once again, how wide-spread are the things I am talking about? The answer is, in the Mid East, quite widespread.

That is just a fact. And yes, people who behave in such manners are barbarians. They are just as despicable as Nazis or Klansmen.

126 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:08:40pm

re: #122 Stanley Sea

He’s been wanting to have it out with me for a while, but the timing has never been right :p

127 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:08:40pm

re: #122 Stanley Sea

And you LVQ are itching to fight. Clear as day.

And on that note, I shall head upstream.

128 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:10:02pm

re: #124 Obdicut

It’s not racist. It’s culturalist. And it’s partly true, just the way it would have been true to say that blacks, in slavery, were illiterate, superstitious, and uneducated. Because they were.

That doesn’t excuse any sort of treatment of them in any way. They’re still human. However, it is still true that the average Palestinian— really, the average one, not the wild-eyed extremist— believes a large number of slanders about Jews and Israel that are not true.

Look, if we can decry the Republicans for the bullshit they feed their adherents, and we can bemoan the fact that more than fifty percent of GOP members think that Obama wants to promote shariah law, then surely we can also bemoan the fact that Palestinians support Hamas and do not even endorse the legitimacy of Israel as a nation?

Quoted for being absolutely true. Any statements like that I have absolutely no objection to.

That, however, is not what others are saying.

129 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:10:03pm

re: #124 Obdicut

It’s not racist. It’s culturalist. And it’s partly true, just the way it would have been true to say that blacks, in slavery, were illiterate, superstitious, and uneducated. Because they were.

That doesn’t excuse any sort of treatment of them in any way. They’re still human. However, it is still true that the average Palestinian— really, the average one, not the wild-eyed extremist— believes a large number of slanders about Jews and Israel that are not true.

Look, if we can decry the Republicans for the bullshit they feed their adherents, and we can bemoan the fact that more than fifty percent of GOP members think that Obama wants to promote shariah law, then surely we can also bemoan the fact that Palestinians support Hamas and do not even endorse the legitimacy of Israel as a nation?

Damn.

Are we beginning to agree on stuff?

//

Well said.

130 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:10:16pm

re: #120 LudwigVanQuixote

Ludwig, your argument that the Irish are more ‘civilized’ is not a good one, at all. To the extent that the Palestinians are less ‘civilized’, it is a problem that they suffer for as much, or more, than anyone else. I know you know that, but it is not coming across at all in what you’re saying; what you’re saying sounds like you’re saying the Palestianians are uncivilizable, rather than uncivilized.


In addition, the IRA’s bombs were just as bad, dancing or no dancing.

131 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:11:50pm

re: #130 Obdicut

And that’s largely what I’m responding to, if I’m honest. The unpleasant emotional force in the comments above.

That and the ‘they should all be hunted down and killled’, didn’t like that either.

132 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:11:56pm

re: #122 Stanley Sea

And you LVQ are itching to fight. Clear as day.

No not really, I am interested in not letting facts get wiped away by moonbats.

I do not discriminate my disdain for stupidity and willful blindness, be it from the left or the right.

It is pretty simple, If he wants to debate, he can bring facts. All he has brought so far are smears about how the facts I bring make him feel - and some belief that I am a racist for not whitewashing reality.

Now do understand, his views mean supporting those who would murder my friends and family.

As far as insults go, you should be sensitive to that if you are feeling all touchy feely.

133 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:12:53pm

re: #131 windsagio

And I hope that I’m not seeming to piggyback or twist your comments for ‘points’, either. That’s dirty pool :p

134 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:13:27pm

re: #130 Obdicut

Ludwig, your argument that the Irish are more ‘civilized’ is not a good one, at all. To the extent that the Palestinians are less ‘civilized’, it is a problem that they suffer for as much, or more, than anyone else. I know you know that, but it is not coming across at all in what you’re saying; what you’re saying sounds like you’re saying the Palestianians are uncivilizable, rather than uncivilized.

In addition, the IRA’s bombs were just as bad, dancing or no dancing.

Touche.

I happen to agree with LVQ more often that not on the subject at hand.

My only critique is that all too often he writes as if every reader understands hi unwritten and nuanced point. They do not. At times he assumes his readers are more versed than they are.

135 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:13:44pm

re: #77 LudwigVanQuixote

Yet another big difference is that frankly, Irish people are vastly more civilized than most cultures in the M.E. You simply can not look at a culture that thinks that honor killings are just fine, or that public decapitation is a family event to take a picnic to, through Western eyes and think that such people will be just like Westerners.


When somebody decides to murder innocent civilians for political reasons, I don’t care what else they do or don’t do that you like or don’t like. Terrorists are terrorists. Murderers are murderers. IMO, honor killings should be treated as hate crimes. When you start saying one culture is better than another based not on how the best of them behave but rather on how the worst of them behave, that’s just cherry-picking your way towards racism.

And yeah, people in the West have taken family picnics to beheadings. Ever hear of the French Revolution? The century after that it was witches (again), and in the last century it was black people swinging from trees. But that’s better because it uses a rope instead of a blade, I suppose?

136 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:13:56pm

re: #126 windsagio

He’s been wanting to have it out with me for a while, but the timing has never been right :p

Actually this isn’t about you per-se.

As far as what the facts are, just address the facts.

Let us just pick one…

Honor killings. How often do you think those happen? Do you think I am making that up?

If I am not making that up, what kind of people do such things?

137 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:14:14pm

re: #132 LudwigVanQuixote

Read obdi’s response up above. As is often the case, he’s better at staying calm and responding in a non-confrontational way.

Nobody’s denying that bad stuff happens out thre man, the region’s a mess.

138 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:14:21pm

re: #125 LudwigVanQuixote

So once again, how wide-spread are the things I am talking about? The answer is, in the Mid East, quite widespread.


I’d still need to see the statistics before making such a call.

139 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:16:17pm

re: #134 researchok

The problem is that he writes as one (understandably note) that has a huge personal, cultural, and religious stake in the issue.

And an extremely combative stance to people who disagree with him.

The two don’t go together well.

140 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:16:32pm

re: #135 elbruce

When somebody decides to murder innocent civilians for political reasons, I don’t care what else they do or don’t do that you like or don’t like. Terrorists are terrorists. Murderers are murderers. IMO, honor killings should be treated as hate crimes. When you start saying one culture is better than another based not on how the best of them behave but rather on how the worst of them behave, that’s just cherry-picking your way towards racism.

And yeah, people in the West have taken family picnics to beheadings. Ever hear of the French Revolution? The century after that it was witches (again), and in the last century it was black people swinging from trees. But that’s better because it uses a rope instead of a blade, I suppose?

There are things I am in agreement with LVQ and things I think he is bat shit crazy. No doubt he says the same about me.

The only thing I can assure you if is that he no racist in word, deed or thought and never will be.

You owe him an apology.

Argue your point- but don’t label him a racist. That is bad, bad crazy.

141 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:16:49pm

re: #128 windsagio

What I am saying is very, very close to what Ludwig is saying, he’s just saying it with typical Ludwig heat.

You have to remember, you really have to remember that there was a time period where Israel might have been destroyed. It was attacked from all directions. They really did try to wipe them out. I know this was long ago, and I don’t think you were born (I forget how old you are) but the memory of that haunts Israel.

The Palestinians have a more corrupt government, a less egalitarian society, a more theocratic society, a more ignorant society, and in every way a less Enlightenment-values society than Israel does. It’s simply true. It is a pain and a burden for the Palestinian people that this is so, just like it is for the Saudi Arabian citizens, the Iranian citizens, etc. etc. But it also means that they have much less legitimacy as a state, that their leaders have less legitimacy, and that their promises are generally without merit, because their society is so very, very screwed up.

I have no solution for this. But neither does Israel. There is nothing Israel can do that will fix Palestinian society. I do feel that a less hard-line stance might help. It might. But it also might get more Israelis killed.

And we sit here in the US, allies of Saudi Arabia, as they pump out the propaganda that keeps the Palestinians misinformed. That rankles me.

142 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:16:50pm

re: #137 windsagio

Read obdi’s response up above. As is often the case, he’s better at staying calm and responding in a non-confrontational way.

Nobody’s denying that bad stuff happens out thre man, the region’s a mess.

Really I am calm.

There have been no outbursts, except for your constant dancing around facts and refusal to discuss anything except the points that have been brought. You can have a pity party for yourself later. Right now, tell me:

Do civilized people commit honor killings against young women?

Is honor killing civilized?

Yes or no?

143 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:18:54pm

re: #139 windsagio

The problem is that he writes as one (understandably note) that has a huge personal, cultural, and religious stake in the issue.

And an extremely combative stance to people who disagree with him.

The two don’t go together well.

So he is passionate. So what? So am I.

I look at the quality/merits of his argument. Style doesn’t impact me.

For all I know, he likes yogurt- plain yogurt. Who cares?

144 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:19:02pm

Need to use the last of daylight. BBL. Don’t solve this without me.

145 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:19:21pm

re: #144 Decatur Deb

Sigh. No worries.

146 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:19:36pm

re: #141 Obdicut

What I am saying is very, very close to what Ludwig is saying, he’s just saying it with typical Ludwig heat.

You have to remember, you really have to remember that there was a time period where Israel might have been destroyed. It was attacked from all directions. They really did try to wipe them out. I know this was long ago, and I don’t think you were born (I forget how old you are) but the memory of that haunts Israel.

The Palestinians have a more corrupt government, a less egalitarian society, a more theocratic society, a more ignorant society, and in every way a less Enlightenment-values society than Israel does. It’s simply true. It is a pain and a burden for the Palestinian people that this is so, just like it is for the Saudi Arabian citizens, the Iranian citizens, etc. etc. But it also means that they have much less legitimacy as a state, that their leaders have less legitimacy, and that their promises are generally without merit, because their society is so very, very screwed up.

I have no solution for this. But neither does Israel. There is nothing Israel can do that will fix Palestinian society. I do feel that a less hard-line stance might help. It might. But it also might get more Israelis killed.

And we sit here in the US, allies of Saudi Arabia, as they pump out the propaganda that keeps the Palestinians misinformed. That rankles me.

Perfect.

You have any sisters?

147 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:20:21pm

re: #144 Decatur Deb

Need to use the last of daylight. BBL. Don’t solve this without me.

LOL

OK, I’ll hold back till your return.

148 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:20:36pm

re: #135 elbruce

But of course there is more to it than that and you know it. The French Revolution did not have the religious imperative that the Islamists do.

Further, one could pretty easily argue that the Parisian masses who went into a fenzy of blood rage were about as literate as the current populace of the Middle East and given to many of the same extremes due to lack of social mobility, frustration and general oppression. This made them easy to manipulate - and look how well that turned out.

The only big difference is that the Palis and the Islamists blame Israel as the oppressor, when in reality, they do it to themselves.

149 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:21:36pm

re: #146 researchok

Perfect.

You have any sisters?

Two brothers. I do know a very nice girl in her mid-thirties who I’m trying to fix up with a nice guy. She’s secular Jewish lives up in New York, liberal as hell and does documentary filmmaking.

She was a few years older than me when we were growing up— our parents are friends— and was always supernice to me. I think she’s great.

150 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:22:09pm

re: #141 Obdicut

To my view you’re saying something entirely different.

the “Typical ludwig heat’ is exactly the thing I’m objecting to.

151 elbruce  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:22:38pm

re: #140 researchok

The only thing I can assure you if is that he no racist in word, deed or thought and never will be.

You owe him an apology.

Argue your point- but don’t label him a racist. That is bad, bad crazy.

Kindly re-parse the phrase “that’s just cherry-picking your way towards racism.” Consider all of the other words in in addition to the last one (hint: the 2nd-to-last word is important too).

152 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:22:44pm

re: #143 researchok

So he is passionate. So what? So am I.

I look at the quality/merits of his argument. Style doesn’t impact me.

For all I know, he likes yogurt- plain yogurt. Who cares?

Well bitching that my argument wasn’t phrased in a way that he likes, allows him to still, after several dozen posts avoid discussing the points in it.

I know big bad Ludwig, oppressing little poeple with his passionate and unreasonable use of facts and logic…

It is pretty laughable.

Windy if you have a leg to stand on, try debating the points. Otherwise, and I truly hope you do this, grow from the fact, that this was not a bunch of hateful screeds, but rather, a recitation of data that you have no answer for.

153 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:23:25pm

re: #143 researchok

The problem is that his passion clouds his judgement, and even more crosses over into hate.

Again, I can understand some of the reasons. That doesn’t make him right.

And it doesn’t make his position helpful… not for Israel, not for the Palestinians, not for anyone.

154 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:23:30pm

re: #148 LudwigVanQuixote

He has a very, very good point that people in this country did take children and families to watch lynchings.

We should not forget what we have done while being very ‘civilized’.

155 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:24:00pm

re: #150 windsagio

To my view you’re saying something entirely different.

the “Typical ludwig heat’ is exactly the thing I’m objecting to.

And I am objecting for a self pity party that fails to address the points.

This is not abut me, no matter how hard you try to make it so. I do hope that you can grow from the realization, that you are way off on your views and that the evidence of reality does not support your nonsense.

156 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:25:03pm

re: #149 Obdicut

Two brothers. I do know a very nice girl in her mid-thirties who I’m trying to fix up with a nice guy. She’s secular Jewish lives up in New York, liberal as hell and does documentary filmmaking.

She was a few years older than me when we were growing up— our parents are friends— and was always supernice to me. I think she’s great.

‘Liberal as hell’.

Just shoot me.

As an aside, see my blog sidebar. There is a group of posts labeled Middle East. They are redacted work product. I think you might like them- although obviously, they are written within a psychological framework.

157 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:26:30pm

re: #154 Obdicut

He has a very, very good point that people in this country did take children and families to watch lynchings.

We should not forget what we have done while being very ‘civilized’.

I did write in this very thread that the people who support Hamas are just as uncivilized as Nazis and Klansmen.

My point is that he can correctly excoriate Klansmen for their atrocities, but give Palestinian terrorists and those that support them a pass.

I suppose murdered blacks upset him, but murdered Jews don’t. That rather makes him an asshole.

158 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:27:31pm

re: #154 Obdicut

He has a very, very good point that people in this country did take children and families to watch lynchings.

We should not forget what we have done while being very ‘civilized’.

In fact that is sort of the crux of my argument. Those who went to lynchings were utter barbarians. Scum.

Why does that standard not apply consistently to say an honor killing or a stoning?

159 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:27:41pm

re: #155 LudwigVanQuixote

I’ve addressed your points, as far as I am able :p

(Unless I typed it and deleted it for some reason)

But just let me be clear: Yes those things you listed happen. Yes they’re terrible.

No they’re not fair to apply to 100% of Arab culture or whatever the preferred term is now. No they’re not inherently uncivilized.

There are positive forces and negative forces in Palestine, just like there are in Israel. The negative forces are worse, absolutely. Shooting rockets into another country is terrible. But to make the general judgements you throw out so casually strikes me as self-satisfied and wrong.

160 webevintage  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:27:53pm

Do we not have laws to keep undesirable people such as Wilders out of the US?

161 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:27:59pm

re: #157 LudwigVanQuixote

That’s completely unfair. He doesn’t give Palestinian terrorists a pass, at all. He never has, in any way. What he is objecting to is categorizations of the Palestinian people as a whole— even though, as I said, I think that categorization is in many ways accurate.

But it isn’t right to accuse him of giving Hamas a pass.

162 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:29:59pm

re: #158 LudwigVanQuixote

It does. But it undercuts the part of your argument about relative ‘civilization’. Many of the metrics you used would have declared the American South to be very ‘civilized’, and would have declared the white population to be more ‘civilized’ than the black population. So being ‘civilized’ does not actually seem a good metric for judging acceptance of terrible, terrible things.

163 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:30:21pm

re: #153 windsagio

The problem is that his passion clouds his judgement, and even more crosses over into hate.

Again, I can understand some of the reasons. That doesn’t make him right.

And it doesn’t make his position helpful… not for Israel, not for the Palestinians, not for anyone.

Well,. I disagree.

I don’t see hate- I see a reality mirror, that rare and mysterious object that reflects clarity.

If you saw what he sees (and I see) you’d be outraged as hell.

I have been to the region many times- Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, etc. A child in those countries, unless he or she is privileged, has no shot in hell of having a real shot at a good life.

I can assure you that is the source of much of LVQ’s anger. They are generations lost because of corrupt and dysfunctional, bigoted and racist regimes.

That stuff is taught and learned- and in the end, that is what kills.

You ought to be angry as hell, too.

164 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:30:39pm

re: #159 windsagio

You know what? No matter how I feel, I do owe you an apology Ludwig.

The way you treat this subject drives me crazy, and puts me into ‘internet-fight’ mode.

That being said, I had no right to call you racist, or anything of the sort. As such, I apologize.

165 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:30:48pm

re: #161 Obdicut

ANd, finally, Windy, it’s unfair to call Ludwig a racist. He is not. I know you feel that he is, but believe me, if he met a Palestinian, he would have no animus for him as a Palestinian. He would only care about his views. That is not racist. That is the opposite of racist.

166 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:31:12pm

re: #164 windsagio

Heh! You got it in just before my admonishment. Good going.

167 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:32:43pm

re: #130 Obdicut

How could you get any of that from what I have written?

If I thought they were uncivilzable, I would not be so keen to point out the many innocent Muslims in the world, and I would not talk about setting up an education system that prevented Islamist brainwashing.

I get really tired of the way that hyper sensitive people refuse to reason with words written in plain English.

168 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:33:25pm

re: #163 researchok

I’ve seen a cop beat up a 12 year old for no discernable reason. I’ve also spent 3 hours locked up for no good reason in teh back of a patrol car, and eventually had to spend $1000 to avoid being railroaded for a crime I didn’t commit.

Nevertheless, I do my damndest to resist saying ‘all cops are violent scum that ignore the truth and are more interested in asserting their authority than justice.’ I’m often tempted, because I have an emotional stake, but I do my best to resist :p

169 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:34:03pm

re: #167 LudwigVanQuixote

I didn’t get that from what you wrote. I said that what you were saying was coming across that way— I didn’t get that, because I knew what you meant.

I’m trying to be the balancer and translator. I’m sorry if I’m doing it awkwardly, but it’s an awkward position.

170 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:34:21pm

re: #162 Obdicut

It does. But it undercuts the part of your argument about relative ‘civilization’. Many of the metrics you used would have declared the American South to be very ‘civilized’, and would have declared the white population to be more ‘civilized’ than the black population. So being ‘civilized’ does not actually seem a good metric for judging acceptance of terrible, terrible things.

No not at all. I consider evil, common, casual racist brutality uncivilized.

How are you possibly projecting that onto my words?

That is offensive.

171 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:34:44pm

re: #166 Obdicut

I’m sure you’ve seen my arc in these things :D

it goes like this:

Respond>get angry>attack>go over the line>fight>realize ‘oops’>apologize (last one is only sometimes :p)

Just get into the think of the fighting and go overboard >>

172 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:36:35pm

re: #169 Obdicut

I didn’t get that from what you wrote. I said that what you were saying was coming across that way— I didn’t get that, because I knew what you meant.

I’m trying to be the balancer and translator. I’m sorry if I’m doing it awkwardly, but it’s an awkward position.

No! I also wrote those points clearly. To even remotely get what windy is falsely and stupidly implying, from what I was saying, by anyone is complete breakdown of logic.

And people wonder why I am so fed up with stupidity.

173 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:38:11pm

re: #168 windsagio

I’ve seen a cop beat up a 12 year old for no discernable reason. I’ve also spent 3 hours locked up for no good reason in teh back of a patrol car, and eventually had to spend $1000 to avoid being railroaded for a crime I didn’t commit.

Nevertheless, I do my damndest to resist saying ‘all cops are violent scum that ignore the truth and are more interested in asserting their authority than justice.’ I’m often tempted, because I have an emotional stake, but I do my best to resist :p

Of course there are outliers.

But the fact remains that a culture that worships heroes because they save lives is very different than a culture that takes lives.

In their world, heroes kill. In ours, heroes save lives.

In their world, heroes are mass murderers… In our world, heroes come to liberate and give life.

What shame there must be in the Arab world…

The contrast in how heroes are defined cannot be more clear or crisp. That contrast also helps to defines the the chasm of differences between cultures.

174 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:38:45pm

re: #169 Obdicut

I didn’t get that from what you wrote. I said that what you were saying was coming across that way— I didn’t get that, because I knew what you meant.

I’m trying to be the balancer and translator. I’m sorry if I’m doing it awkwardly, but it’s an awkward position.

I understand that, and I do appreciate it. I am just tired of the need for it. People should be able to reason like adults and read words for what they are.

Research was correct. My biggest flaw is that I expect people to be able to think much more often then they are clearly capable of.

175 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:38:51pm

re: #172 LudwigVanQuixote

See heres the thing. I think I put across my points pretty well too (except when I slip into insult, which is a bad habit).

I also don’t think you’re stupid for disagreeing with me. We disagree, we have our reasons for our positions, but neither of us is dumb.

176 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:39:35pm

re: #172 LudwigVanQuixote

And people wonder why I am so fed up with stupidity.

Yeah, but you put up with me….

Hey, I’m just trying to lighten things up…

177 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:39:49pm

re: #173 researchok

Of course there are outliers.

But the fact remains that a culture that worships heroes because they save lives is very different than a culture that takes lives.

In their world, heroes kill. In ours, heroes save lives.

In their world, heroes are mass murderers… In our world, heroes come to liberate and give life.

What shame there must be in the Arab world…

The contrast in how heroes are defined cannot be more clear or crisp. That contrast also helps to defines the the chasm of differences between cultures.

Thank you!

All the willful blindness and utter stupidity just gets to me. Our species, as a whole, is likely too dumb to save.

178 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:40:15pm

re: #170 LudwigVanQuixote

My wife just got home, so I have to go. I meant no offense, but using the word ‘civilized’ just brings in a whole other sphere of subjective meaning, and is probably best avoided. It clouds the issue.

179 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:41:03pm

re: #173 researchok

That kind of wasnt’ my point :p My point was that bad experiences don’t justify generalizations like that.

Him saying ‘arab cculture is uncivilized’ is the same as me saying ‘cop culture is brutal and abusive’.

We both have reasons for coming to those conclusions, but none of those reasons are fair to the cops (or arabs, or egyptians, or iranians) that live/work in those cultures but aren’t part of that problem.

180 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:41:39pm

re: #177 LudwigVanQuixote

‘willful blindness?’

To what end? What’s the gain?

181 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:42:08pm

re: #176 researchok

Yeah, but you put up with me…

Hey, I’m just trying to lighten things up…

We have our disputes, but you are OK. I don’t demand hat everyone agree with me. In fact, I learn from a good debate. More than once, I have been swayed by others here. What I don’t like one bit, is making an obviously true statement - like honor killing is uncivilized - and a fact of life in the ME, and then having it challenged. You can’t even get to a real discussion or analysis, if you still have to bring up willfully blind twits to speed on the basics and they refuse to see them.

182 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:42:15pm

re: #177 LudwigVanQuixote

Thank you!

All the willful blindness and utter stupidity just gets to me. Our species, as a whole, is likely too dumb to save.

Well, you and I can head for the hill in our survivalist camp and kill each other arguing about the Roosevelts.

//

Admit it- you laughed.

183 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:42:59pm

re: #182 researchok

Well, you and I can head for the hill in our survivalist camp and kill each other arguing about the Roosevelts.

//

Admit it- you laughed.

I did :)

184 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:43:16pm

re: #181 LudwigVanQuixote

We have our disputes, but you are OK. I don’t demand hat everyone agree with me. In fact, I learn from a good debate. More than once, I have been swayed by others here. What I don’t like one bit, is making an obviously true statement - like honor killing is uncivilized - and a fact of life in the ME, and then having it challenged. You can’t even get to a real discussion or analysis, if you still have to bring up willfully blind twits to speed on the basics and they refuse to see them.

No argument here.

185 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:46:12pm

re: #179 windsagio

That kind of wasnt’ my point :p My point was that bad experiences don’t justify generalizations like that.

Him saying ‘arab cculture is uncivilized’ is the same as me saying ‘cop culture is brutal and abusive’.

We both have reasons for coming to those conclusions, but none of those reasons are fair to the cops (or arabs, or egyptians, or iranians) that live/work in those cultures but aren’t part of that problem.

There is a difference from saying that the cultural norms that prevail are uncivilized and saying that every memeber of that group agrees with them. Why si such a simple logical distinction impossile for you to make? Clearly I don’t think that all agree with them./ However, it is stupid to deny what the norm is.

Take the American South in the 1920’s for example. Are you going to say that it was not, in general, racist?

Did that mean that all Southerners were like that?

Does the fact that some Southerners went against the norm, make the reality of the norm less real?

Why is basic logic so difficult for you?

186 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:48:05pm

The reason the ME is so sensitive is because we want things to be equal. We also want the underdog to be just.

Well, that isn’t in the cards. Prior to the ‘Palestinians’ israels’ enemies were nations with armies, huge armies. Israel was the David fighting the Goliath.

Shrewd Palestinians made themselves the victims and overnight, they became the David versus the Israeli Goliath.

The difference is that Israel is moral, even as an occupier and the Palestinian ‘David’ is not moral.

It really is that simple- it’s just that no one wants to admit the victim here isn’t virtuous.

187 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:50:01pm

re: #185 LudwigVanQuixote

Well you heaping on abuse and accusations of stupidity might be part of the problem :p

more to the point, I’m coming from the problem that you aren’t making the distinction you’re talking about there, or rather weren’t. I’d like to think that with consideration you’ve (consciously or not) adjusted your position to a more reasonable one. I’m not the only one who thought you were going overboard on this, you might note.

Are we all stupid and incapable of differentiating?

You can’t just back off of the extreme position and then say “NONE OF YOU GUYS UNDERSTOOD ME!”

188 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:50:23pm

re: #185 LudwigVanQuixote

Too many people believe that moral equivalence is the only basis for agreement to be had.

It is not.

Ethics 101

189 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:52:40pm

re: #186 researchok

The reason the ME is so sensitive is because we want things to be equal. We also want the underdog to be just.

Well, that isn’t in the cards. Prior to the ‘Palestinians’ israels’ enemies were nations with armies, huge armies. Israel was the David fighting the Goliath.

Shrewd Palestinians made themselves the victims and overnight, they became the David versus the Israeli Goliath.

The difference is that Israel is moral, even as an occupier and the Palestinian ‘David’ is not moral.

It really is that simple- it’s just that no one wants to admit the victim here isn’t virtuous.

That and it also makes the issue of what the hell we’re suppose to do with an occupied place full of unjust people who aren’t exactly a state/nation… and whose attempts at democracy have disappointing results…

190 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:54:15pm

re: #188 researchok

I’m constantly complaining about moral equivalence, so I hope that’s not directed at me, that’s not my position at all. I just think that people take an emotional position on something like this, not a rational one. And that’s destructive. You can be ‘worse’ but not ‘all bad’.

191 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:54:55pm

re: #189 jamesfirecat

That and it also makes the issue of what the hell we’re suppose to do with an occupied place full of unjust people who aren’t exactly a state/nation… and whose attempts at democracy have disappointing results…

Yes- and I have deliberately not referred to the racist and bigoted elements that have poisoned every level of their society.

The Palestinians are an ongoing tragedy- and failure.

192 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:56:20pm

re: #191 researchok

Yes- and I have deliberately not referred to the racist and bigoted elements that have poisoned every level of their society.

The Palestinians are an ongoing tragedy- and failure.

I might add that it’s all of our failure.

Certainly that of their people and the surrounding governments, but also of Israel, the US, Europe, Russia, you name it. We’ve all fucked up on various levels and at various times to me it what it is today.

PS: I’m going down to the convenience store, you guys will have to carry on without me for a little bit :D

193 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:56:31pm

re: #190 windsagio

I’m constantly complaining about moral equivalence, so I hope that’s not directed at me, that’s not my position at all. I just think that people take an emotional position on something like this, not a rational one. And that’s destructive. You can be ‘worse’ but not ‘all bad’.

fair enough.

Still, we are trying to equate what is a dysfunctional and broken society to a functional and successful society.

It just won’t work- it can’t.

194 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:57:33pm

BBIAB

195 windsagio  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 4:57:57pm

re: #193 researchok

said I was leaving but one more :p

We dont’ have to equate them at all.

We also can’t throw the Palestinians out as being without worth. That will only worsen the situation.

196 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 5:05:23pm

re: #187 windsagio

Well you heaping on abuse and accusations of stupidity might be part of the problem :p

Well stop saying stupid things and address the clear facts as presented. Something you have yet to do.

more to the point, I’m coming from the problem that you aren’t making the distinction you’re talking about there, or rather weren’t.

Bullshit. I very carefully mad the distinction in my very first post, which even you up dinged.

I’d like to think that with consideration you’ve (consciously or not) adjusted your position to a more reasonable one.

No my position has remained completely consistent throughout. To insult me by saying such bullshit is deeply offensive. In fact it causes me to want to throttle you for being such a condescending twit.

I’m not the only one who thought you were going overboard on this, you might note.

And the popularity of what I say influences me how?

Are we all stupid and incapable of differentiating?

You can’t just back off of the extreme position and then say “NONE OF YOU GUYS UNDERSTOOD ME!”

But, I didn’t back off from any position, and many here got what I said. The only one flopping around is you. You have yet to address a fact. You have yet to address the implications of those facts. You have yet, for instance to discuss the state of Hamas run education in Gaza and the effect of it. You have yet to discuss a culture that thinks honor killings are just fine. You have yet to address the influence of other backwards tugocracies in the region. You have yet to discuss the culture of death that obtains. You have yet to discuss the brutalization of women and the effects of such on a society.

All you have done is try to shift the discussion of what was said, to a discussion of how what was said makes you feel, appeals to popularity, and other slimy, ill-though, childish and insulting refusals to look at any truth that does not fit your obscene and stupid narrative. It is insulting and proof that moonbats are just as deluded and anti-intellectual as wingnuts.

Both groups of you are snide morons.

197 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 5:06:02pm

re: #195 windsagio

said I was leaving but one more :p

We dont’ have to equate them at all.

We also can’t throw the Palestinians out as being without worth. That will only worsen the situation.

Which I did not do. How about you adress what was actually said. I know straw men are easier to beat, but it really gets old and obnoxious.

198 researchok  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 5:47:40pm

re: #195 windsagio

said I was leaving but one more :p

We dont’ have to equate them at all.

We also can’t throw the Palestinians out as being without worth. That will only worsen the situation.

This is not a question of worthy, per se.

It is a question of worthiness. The Palestinians have to prove they are worthy of a seat at the grown ups table. They have to renounce terror and religious incitement- no ifs, ands buts.

199 mfeil  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 6:19:22pm

I do not think Foxman changed his mind. I also believe that the mosque should not be built near ground zero. They have a right to build there, but it is not the right thing to do.
I find this entirely consistent with my life-long opposition to bigotry. Just because a bigot wants the same thing that I want, does not make me a bigot. I do not want to hurt people, drive them out of the country or damage their property.
Ground Zero is a very special place. I think it would be much better if the Mosque/Community Center was built in another, nice, part of Manhattan.

200 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 6:23:41pm

re: #199 mfeil

What is your non-bigoted reason for a community center not to be built near the strip club there?

201 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 6:27:34pm

Here we go again.

202 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 6:29:13pm

Registered, dumped this comment, and immediately logged out.

203 sffilk  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 8:08:57pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I’m not so sure about that. I still don’t care for Foxman’s original statement on the need to move the mosque. I suspect he’s just pissed because he has some really ugly bedfellows.

At least he was willing to admit to a mistake by correcting it, don’t you think?

204 sffilk  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 8:14:33pm

re: #73 jamesfirecat

Meh, supposed agitators could just wear crazy T-shirts instead…

They did.

205 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 2, 2010 8:41:13pm

re: #82 windsagio

Sorry for coming late to the party. It’s not prejudice that you saw in that post. I’ve been saying for a while that we in the west are mostly unaware of the profound effect the industrial revolution has had on our common sense, on a simple train of thought.

So people mistake our historical thought process for an innate intelligence, and it happens all of the time. They use the word ‘civilized’ or ‘uncivilized’.

The industrial revolution was a geographical phenomenon, coming about because of the vast mineral deposits in Europe, coupled with water power. If you take those two factors and put them in the Middle East and dry up Europe, then everything is reversed.

The Islamic country that did have water power and and mineral wealth was Spain, and just compare Spain at 1000 C.E. with Europe.

It’s just one of those phrases that people use, we know something isn’t quite right, but it’s not prejudice. And remember, you were replying to the fastest typist in the world.

Getting to the topic of the ADL.

Foxman is a follower in the job of a leader. His first statement tested the waters, his followers spoke, and like a good leader, he adjusted to his followers. So he is still leading.

206 jordash1212  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 8:47:06am

Took them long enough.

207 Bob Levin  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:37:28pm

re: #206 jordash1212

Takes a long time to count 50,000 emails.

208 ClaudeMonet  Fri, Sep 3, 2010 11:13:13pm

re: #67 darthstar

Remember when Touchdown Jesus/Big Butter Jesus/Drowning Jesus was struck by lightning and burned this summer? Across the street, apparently, is an adult book/video store…didn’t get touched by lightning. Love that story.

It’s about 25 miles away from my place, at Exit 29 on I-75. The church is north of the northeast corner of the intersection, Hustler Hollywood at the southwest, about a mile between the two. The church is also less than 10 miles from John Boehner’s house.

I figure God was aiming at one of the three, don’t know which.

BTW, with all the good the money could do in social action, Solid Rock Church is collecting donations and planning to build a Bigger! Better! Fireproof! Jesus.


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