Wikileaks Reveals Politics, Iranian Style

World • Views: 21,720

Here’s an amusing and interesting Wikileaks revelation; it shows who is really the boss in Iran, and it’s not Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: Iran President Ahmadinejad slapped by head of Revolutionary Guard.

The February 2010 cable, classified secret and puckishly headlined, “He Who Got Slapped,” quotes an intelligence source recounting a contentious meeting of Iran’s Supreme National Security Council. The Iranian bigs were trying to figure out what to do in the wake of Tehran’s explosive pro-democracy street protests of 2009.

“Ahmadinejad claimed that ‘people feel suffocated,’ and mused that to defuse the situation it may be necessary to allow more personal and social freedoms, including more freedom of the press,” the cable says.

It continues, “Ahmadinejad’s statements infuriated Revolutionary Guard Chief of Staff Mohammed Ali Jafari, who exclaimed ‘You are wrong! [In fact] it is YOU who created this mess! And now you say give more freedom to the press?!’

“Source said that Jafari then slapped Ahmadinejad in the face, causing an uproar,” the cable says.

As with almost all the Wikileaks cables, this doesn’t really show us anything we didn’t already suspect, but it does confirm that Ahmadinejad is essentially a puppet leader, a front for the mullahs and their Revolutionary Guard enforcement arm.

Jump to bottom

305 comments
1 [deleted]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:24:52am
2 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:37:23am

re: #1 MikeySDCA

How is it good that when he suggested more freedom, they slapped him?

3 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:38:08am

Or it didn’t happen…

“Iran denies the slap happened. A Revolutionary Guard spokesman told the Fars News Agency that WikiLeaks’ publishers “invent false stories.”

4 rwdflynavy  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:38:49am

re: #3 Walter L. Newton

Or it didn’t happen…

“Iran denies the slap happened. A Revolutionary Guard spokesman told the Fars News Agency that WikiLeaks’ publishers “invent false stories.”

Why didn’t we think of that!!!???
//

5 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:38:54am

re: #3 Walter L. Newton

Or it didn’t happen…

“Iran denies the slap happened. A Revolutionary Guard spokesman told the Fars News Agency that WikiLeaks’ publishers “invent false stories.”

Actually, in this one, I’ll take wikileaks.

I just wish they would learn responsibility.

6 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:39:21am

re: #3 Walter L. Newton

Or it didn’t happen…

“Iran denies the slap happened. A Revolutionary Guard spokesman told the Fars News Agency that WikiLeaks’ publishers “invent false stories.”

Actually, I’d take the word of a wikileaks doc over a “RG spokesman” any day.

7 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:40:26am

re: #4 rwdflynavy

re: #5 EmmmieG

Considering this information some how originated out of Iran, I would not trust either side of the story without absolute proof.

But then… that’s just me.

8 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:40:43am

Also in Iran, snitches get stitches,

Iranian nuclear scientist ‘tortured on suspicion of revealing state secrets’

Iranbriefing.net - run by a US-based group which normally reports on political prisoners and the activities of Iran’s revolutionary guard - said the scientist, Shahram Amiri, had been interrogated intensively for three months in Tehran and then spent two months in solitary confinement, where his treatment had left him hospitalised for a week.

The Tehran authorities would not confirm or deny the account.

Amiri has not been seen in public in the six months since his much-publicised homecoming from America, where he claimed to have been held against his will. State media portrayed him at the time as a daring patriot who had escaped from his alleged CIA captors with critical information about US covert operations against Iran.

US officials, surprised by Amiri’s unexpected return to Iran, insisted he had gone to the US willingly. There was concern in US intelligence circles however that his original “defection” in Saudi Arabia in 2009 could have been a trap to embarrass the CIA and trick its officials into revealing how much the US knows about the Iranian nuclear programme.

9 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:41:01am

Now that we have that covered….

Does the R.G. have more power than than the Mullahs?

10 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:42:06am

re: #9 marjoriemoon

Now that we have that covered…

Does the R.G. have more power than than the Mullahs?

Er… maybe… they have the weapons?

11 rwdflynavy  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:42:42am

re: #10 Walter L. Newton

Er… maybe… they have the weapons?

and they lack the US military’s observance of civilian control of the military…

12 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:43:06am

The mullahs - specifically Khameni are the true power brokers in Iran. They have their factions, and Ahmadinejad is still ascendant among the top leaders even as the IRGC still throws its weight around.

For their part, the Iranians deny that the incident ever took place.

Still, if this particular incident was true, it could potentially lead to uncovering a highly placed US intel asset with access to the Iranian Supreme National Security Council even though the name of the source was redacted (thankfully).

Der Spiegel had more on this last month.

13 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:43:57am

re: #10 Walter L. Newton

Er… maybe… they have the weapons?

I guess I figured the mullahs always ran the show, but I really did think Achmedinejad had more power than just a puppet. You suppose he’ll be calling for Assange’s head now?

14 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:45:28am

Bad Intelligence… bad…

AFP - France is the top offender when it comes to industrial espionage, and is even worse than China and Russia, the head of a German company was quoted as saying in a leaked US diplomatic cable made public Tuesday.

“France is the evil empire (in) stealing technology, and Germany knows this,” Berry Smutny, the head of German satellite company OHB Technology, was quoted as saying in the diplomatic note obtained by WikiLeaks and released by the Norwegian daily Aftenposten.

france24.com

15 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:47:09am

re: #13 marjoriemoon

I guess I figured the mullahs always ran the show, but I really did think Achmedinejad had more power than just a puppet. You suppose he’ll be calling for Assange’s head now?

He’s probably going to have to wait to get on the list.

16 FQ Kafir  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:47:26am

I wonder if the slap happened before or after this.

17 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:47:39am

So…Iran is a thugocracy.

I do wish there were fewer thugocracies.

18 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:50:46am

Iran, Pakistan, Burma, Most of Africa, China, NK, and apparently Delaware.

19 beartiger  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:52:16am
but it does confirm that Ahmadinejad is essentially a puppet leader, a front for the mullahs and their Revolutionary Guard enforcement arm.

No, actually, it doesn’t. Both puppets and supreme leaders, not to mention everyone in between, can be slapped.

20 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:53:17am

re: #19 beartiger

No, actually, it doesn’t. Both puppets and supreme leaders, not to mention everyone in between, can be slapped.

Do you really think anyone could slap Kim Il Jong and have their hand remain attached to their arm all day?

21 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:53:30am

This could all be solved very easily by blaming the Jews, you know!

22 rwdflynavy  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:54:41am

re: #21 marjoriemoon

This could all be solved very easily by blaming the Jews, you know!

You know they are to blame somehow!!!
//

23 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:56:34am

re: #20 EmmmieG

Do you really think anyone could slap Kim Il Jong and have their hand remain attached to their arm all day?

Translator: He asks what part of the deal you did not understand. He says perhaps his translator did not make it clear to you. He says he should fire his translator?

24 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:57:05am

re: #18 EmmmieG

Iran, Pakistan, Burma, Most of Africa, China, NK, and apparently Delaware.

Huh?? Because of all the Dems they vote into office!?!?

elections.delaware.gov

???

25 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:58:35am

Also, consider the following.

If you believe that Ahmadinejad got slapped, it was because he was pushing for liberalizing of rules contra the IRGC. That would seemingly put him much closer to Mousavi than you’d think - because the two men who ran in the disputed election were pretty much carbon copies of each other on everything from nuclear policy to getting the mullahs’ rubber stamp of approval to even run in the election.

If you don’t think the incident went down, it would suggest that the source was wrong or was misdirecting or misleading US officials (which can and does happen all the time). I’m leaning towards the latter.

The totality of the circumstances of the Iranian unrest following the elections would discount the possibility of the slap (or if it really did happen, it had its intended effect of snapping Ahmadinejad out of a ill-conceived position relative to the IRGC and the mullahs - aka Cher-like slap in Moonstruck - SNAP OUT OF IT), especially since the Basiji, who backed Ahmadinejad were among the forefront of those who were busy clubbing and killing opposition protesters.

26 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:58:46am

re: #18 EmmmieG

Iran, Pakistan, Burma, Most of Africa, China, NK, and apparently Delaware.


re: #24 sattv4u2

Huh?? Because of all the Dems they vote into office!?!?

[Link: elections.delaware.gov…]

???


heh ,, just came across this one!

THE BLUE ENIGMA PARTY
JEFFREY BROWN 947 14 961 0 . 4 %

27 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:59:16am

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Translator: He asks what part of the deal you did not understand. He says perhaps his translator did not make it clear to you. He says he should fire his translator?

Tat reminds me of that part in Arrested Development with the guy serving as a surrogate for a guy who is under house arrest…

“I want you to look yourself in a mirror and tell yourself something very important… YOU’RE FIRED! OH COME ON PLEASE BOSS I CAN CHANGE!”

28 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:00:16pm

re: #24 sattv4u2

Huh?? Because of all the Dems they vote into office!?!?

[Link: elections.delaware.gov…]

???

I’m quoting Christine O’Donnell.

29 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:00:34pm

re: #26 sattv4u2

re: #24 sattv4u2


heh ,, just came across this one!

THE BLUE ENIGMA PARTY
JEFFREY BROWN 947 14 961 0 . 4 %

The numbers are

Machine Votes,, 974
Absentee Votes,, 14
Total Votes ,,,,,, 961

Percent of Votes ,, 0.4%

30 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:01:14pm

re: #28 EmmmieG

I’m quoting Christine O’Donnell.

I.N.T.E.L.L.I.G.E.N.C.E. is down! I repeat, we have no I.N.T.E.L.L.I.G.E.N.C.E.!

31 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:06:26pm

re: #29 sattv4u2

The numbers are

Machine Votes,, 974
Absentee Votes,, 14
Total Votes ,,, 961

Percent of Votes ,, 0.4%

heh,,
Not much info at all

en.wikipedia.org

ourcampaigns.com

32 darthstar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:10:23pm

OT: for the “build bigger fences” people. Two girls undermine US Border Security in under 18 seconds:

Youtube Video
33 Charleston Chew  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:15:45pm

re: #7 Walter L. Newton

re: #5 EmmmieG

Considering this information some how originated out of Iran, I would not trust either side of the story without absolute proof.

But then… that’s just me.

Absolut proof is about 80.

34 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:17:06pm

Here we go again… Colorado east of the divide has not been getting as much snow as normal, but now we are into a pattern of arctic cold fronts, keeping things in the single digits or below zero… go one coming up at the beginning of next week…

Last several runs of the long range models are in agreement that the global upper air pattern will change beginning Sunday. An upper trough from the Gulf of Alaska will move across CO on Sunday and bring an arctic front down from the north. This combination will bring upslope flow and snow to the Plains and Foothills beginning Sunday morning and should persist into Monday morning. Typically, there is a brief period of moderate to heavy snow just after the arctic front passes, and then the snow becomes quite light in the cold arctic air, so right now I would expect 1-2 inches of snow on the Plains, and 2-4 inches in the foothills from this system. Since there is some upper level support with the upper trough, we could see more snow, but will need to wait for higher resolution models to chime in later this week.

The global upper level pattern then puts a high amplitude upper ridge over the eastern Pacific and up into Alaska, which brings very cold air from the Yukon pouring southward into the Intermountain West. This flow will keep the very cold arctic air in place through much of next week. In addition, weak disturbances in the upper flow will produce periods of light snow towards the middle and end of next week. Snow amounts are expected to be light in the cold arctic air, but there will be little melting during the day of any snow on the ground. Temps from Sunday through at least next Saturday will be similar to over New Years, with high temps in the single digits to teens, and low temps near or below zero. This looks to be an extended period in arctic air, so take any necessary precautions to keep pipes from freezing and for pets normally left outside. Wind chills could be well below zero most of next week.

I’ve been following the Paris weather in advance of my visit on the 14th, and have been noticing that many of their nights have been in the 20’s (f), which is not as normal as the 30’s that they usually get.

Maybe temps in the 20’s will be welcome, versus the below zero that we have been having here?

35 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:17:12pm

re: #32 darthstar
You’ll notice they didn’t go “Over” the fence….It would be against the
law??
NO!! That’s Fuc%^$& Mexico man…no one sneaks INTO Mexico!
Cute girls too….Just sayin!

36 darthstar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:18:12pm

re: #35 reloadingisnotahobby

You’ll notice they didn’t go “Over” the fence…It would be against the
law??
NO!! That’s Fuc%^$& Mexico man…no one sneaks INTO Mexico!
Cute girls too…Just sayin!

How do we keep our young blonds from escaping into Mexico?

37 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:19:26pm

re: #36 darthstar

How do we keep our young blonds from escaping into Mexico?

Take away the keys to their vets?

38 darthstar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:20:07pm

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

Take away the keys to their vets?

That’s one solution…and probably the most realistic.

39 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:20:16pm

re: #32 darthstar

OT: for the “build bigger fences” people. Two girls undermine US Border Security in under 18 seconds:


[Video]

Wow… they certainly know how to hug a pole.

40 Stanley Sea  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:20:23pm

OT breaking news


BreakingNews

Younger son of the Shah of Iran, Prince Alireza Pahlavi, kills himself in Boston after a battle with depression, his brother says - NBC

41 darthstar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:20:54pm

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

Wow… they certainly know how to hug a pole.

Well, those kind of skills will help pay for college.

42 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:24:01pm

re: #41 darthstar
You have no daughters …eh?
LOL

43 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:24:06pm

re: #41 darthstar

Well, those kind of skills will help pay for college.

Why would they want to buy a college?

44 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:25:06pm

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

Why would they want to buy a college?

Glenn Beck University doesn’t pay for itself.

45 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:25:11pm

re: #36 darthstar

Mexico … needs…. women?

Doesn’t quite have the ring of Mars… but close enough.

46 leftynyc  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:25:52pm

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

Just came back from Paris last week. It is a bit cold at night but if you’re used to sub-zero you will welcome it. If you’re into Monet, there’s a barn-burner of an exhibit at the Grand Palace - over 200 paintings from all over the world - it was awesome.

47 darthstar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:26:33pm

re: #42 reloadingisnotahobby

You have no daughters …eh?
LOL

Sorry…wasn’t thinking like a Republican…of course, girls don’t need to go to college! How silly of me to think so!

//

48 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:28:19pm

re: #47 darthstar

Sorry…wasn’t thinking like a Republican…of course, girls don’t need to go to college! How silly of me to think so!

//

They just need to make sure they go to the right college

Youtube Video
49 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:28:34pm

re: #46 leftynyc

Just came back from Paris last week. It is a bit cold at night but if you’re used to sub-zero you will welcome it. If you’re into Monet, there’s a barn-burner of an exhibit at the Grand Palace - over 200 paintings from all over the world - it was awesome.

Yes… I read about that exhibit… it isn’t the only Monet in town, but it’s more Monet in one spot… that’s what’s nice about it.

I always do Paris in the winter, so the cold is not much of an issue, and I live in Colorado… but those 20’s must be bothering the French a bit.

50 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:31:08pm

I’ve completed my experiment “Beck,FM..AM or Two Cans and a String”!
Formost conclusion: He’s Coo Koo in Mono,Stereo
and ..ah..ah…Tomato Paste!
…Had to look at the can……..

51 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:31:08pm

re: #46 leftynyc

Just came back from Paris last week. It is a bit cold at night but if you’re used to sub-zero you will welcome it. If you’re into Monet, there’s a barn-burner of an exhibit at the Grand Palace - over 200 paintings from all over the world - it was awesome.

Just rechecked the website… now I know why I didn’t put it on my list… the rest of the run is sold out. No billets available… si triste.

52 [deleted]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:32:21pm
53 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:32:30pm

re: #50 reloadingisnotahobby

I’ve completed my experiment “Beck,FM..AM or Two Cans and a String”!
Formost conclusion: He’s Coo Koo in Mono,Stereo
and ..ah..ah…Tomato Paste!
…Had to look at the can…

I always pictured Beck as more of a Cream of Mushroom man.

54 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:34:34pm

re: #52 MikeySDCA

On general principles A-jad deserves to be slapped. Anyone who does it, on whatever pretext, is on the side of the angels.

No, the fanatic, fascist Republican Guard of Iran are not on the side of the angels.

I think you’re missing the point of the article. Ahmadinnerjacket is a dick. But he’s a puppet. The real nastiness comes from the Mullahs and the Guard.

55 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:35:23pm

re: #53 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Speaking of Mushrooms I…. ah…ah…

Forgot what I was going to say…..

56 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:36:56pm

re: #54 Obdicut

Dude …your code is so easy to break…..
…He’s a Dildo!
Took me …like 3 seconds!
/

57 leftynyc  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:38:30pm

re: #49 Walter L. Newton

I FINALLY got to see L’Orangie - it was under renovations my other two trips to Paris so this trip was an OD on Monet - they moved most of the Monet’s from D’Orsay (also under some renovation) for the Grand Palace exhibit. I enjoyed being there for Christmas (although not Christian) - the city all lit up, we went to Notre Dame for Christmas Eve - it was lovely.

58 leftynyc  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:41:27pm

re: #51 Walter L. Newton


I’m really sorry about that. But L’Orangie should take care of any Monet yearnings. My very favorite museum there remains Rodin. Never really gave scupture a second thought until I saw that museum - what an amazing talent he was.

59 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:42:40pm

re: #57 leftynyc

I FINALLY got to see L’Orangie - it was under renovations my other two trips to Paris so this trip was an OD on Monet - they moved most of the Monet’s from D’Orsay (also under some renovation) for the Grand Palace exhibit. I enjoyed being there for Christmas (although not Christian) - the city all lit up, we went to Notre Dame for Christmas Eve - it was lovely.

The city of lights is even more wonderful around the winter holidays, more lights, less tourists, crispness in the air is much more enjoyable than the sweltering summers, all in all, I recommend Europe in the winter.

60 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:43:53pm

re: #58 leftynyc

I’m really sorry about that. But L’Orangie should take care of any Monet yearnings. My very favorite museum there remains Rodin. Never really gave scupture a second thought until I saw that museum - what an amazing talent he was.

I still have a soft spot for Orsay, mainly because I can see a little Serat there. Not much Serat in Paris… he’s sort of spread all over the world.

61 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:44:10pm

re: #59 Walter L. Newton

The city of lights is even more wonderful around the winter holidays, more lights, less tourists, crispness in the air is much more enjoyable than the sweltering summers, all in all, I recommend Europe in the winter.

Paris in the Winter, Moscow in the Spring!

62 BongCrodny  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:44:48pm

re: #33 Charleston Chew

Absolut proof is about 80.


If it truly was Absolut, it would be 200 proof.

63 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:45:02pm

re: #52 MikeySDCA

On general principles A-jad deserves to be slapped. Anyone who does it, on whatever pretext, is on the side of the angels.

Sounds too close to “the enemy of my enemy ,,,” for me to be cozy with it!

I would be happy of A-(hole)Jad AND the Guard were be “slapped”

64 darthstar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:45:40pm

re: #61 Alouette

Paris in the Winter, Moscow in the Spring!

Paris Au Printemps is one of my favorite PIL albums.

amazon.com

65 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:46:38pm

re: #61 Alouette

Paris in the Winter, Moscow in the Spring!

Sturgis in August!
sturgis.com

66 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:47:28pm

re: #32 darthstar

OT: for the “build bigger fences” people. Two girls undermine US Border Security in under 18 seconds:

[Video]

They didn’t undermine border security. The fence got them way up in the air where border patrol officers could see them, if they hadn’t already seen them cross that nice, wide clearing next to the fence. Also, that fence stops vehicles, which the string of barbed wire that was there before would not.

And I think that fence is big enough, so I guess I’m not a “build bigger fences” person, right?

67 darthstar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:47:57pm

re: #65 sattv4u2

Sturgis in August!
[Link: www.sturgis.com…]

I wonder if John McCain will auction off Cindy again.

68 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:48:25pm

re: #58 leftynyc

The Rodin museum is exquisite with the surroundings of the mansion and sculpture gardens. It was also quite interesting to see the different renderings of various sculptures in different mediums. One of my favorites in Paris. If you can’t get to Paris, Philly surprisingly has a good Rodin museum collection.

69 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:48:25pm

So after years of scandals where businesses cripple the economy due to breaking regulations, what does the GOP decide to do?

Darrell Issa Asks Businesses Which Regulations Should be Killed

“The Committee on Oversight and Government Reform is examining existing and proposed regulations that negatively impact the economy and jobs,” the letter opens. Issa goes on to ask recipients “for your assistance in identifying existing and proposed regulations that have negatively impacted job growth in your members’ industry.”


Politico, which first reported on the appeal, said that Duke Energy, the Association of American Railroads, FMC Corp., Toyota and Bayer are among the groups who were sent the letter on Dec. 13th. The American Petroleum Institute, National Association of Manufacturers, the National Petrochemical & Refiners Association and representatives of the health care and telecommunications industries were also reportedly contacted by Issa.

70 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:49:41pm

re: #68 lawhawk

re: #61 Alouette

re: #58 leftynyc

Here is one of my favorite pictures… I took this inside the Orsay, through one of their street facing clocks… in Jan. 2007…

Image: DSC00270.JPG

71 darthstar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:49:54pm

re: #66 wrenchwench

But what happens when immigrants disguise themselves as young coeds just having fun climbing a fence…Border Security would ignore such activity as harmless…then we’d get more leprosy and beheadings in the country!11ty!

//

72 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:53:08pm

re: #69 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

remember, they think everything was fine.

73 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:53:51pm

OT: update on this story….
War of stones – the settlers’ version

(Video) After claiming Sunday’s violent clash with Palestinians was tendentiously edited in B’Tselem video, Itzhar settlers present their own footage showing Palestinian cameraman hurling stones – while filming event

74 leftynyc  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:54:32pm

re: #68 lawhawk

Thank you so much for that link - I never knew about that museum. After seeing the Waterlily panels at L’Orangie, we watched a 40 minute film on the collection and found out the first place considered for the site of the panels was the grounds of Rodin.

75 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:56:01pm

OT: Just heard Baker Street musician Gerry Rafferty has died.
RIP.

76 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:56:13pm

Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real

As for the 3 percent of scientists who remain unconvinced, the study found their average expertise is far below that of their colleagues, as measured by publication and citation rates.


lol

77 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:56:14pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

OT: update on this story…
War of stones – the settlers’ version

Obviously, an Israeli agitator dressed AS a Palestinian cameraman throwing stones while filming the event of ACTUAL Palestinians NOT throwing stones!!!

(oh great,,, now my head hurts!!)

78 leftynyc  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:56:58pm

re: #70 Walter L. Newton

Wow - that’s amazing. I’m ashamed to admit that although I’m pretty sure my camera does some great stuff, I put it on automatic (read idiot) setting most of the time unless I’m looking for black and white.

79 albusteve  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:58:58pm

re: #70 Walter L. Newton

re: #61 Alouette

re: #58 leftynyc

Here is one of my favorite pictures… I took this inside the Orsay, through one of their street facing clocks… in Jan. 2007…

Image: DSC00270.JPG

cool picture…I like it

80 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 12:59:23pm

re: #78 leftynyc

Wow - that’s amazing. I’m ashamed to admit that although I’m pretty sure my camera does some great stuff, I put it on automatic (read idiot) setting most of the time unless I’m looking for black and white.

What does race have to do wif it!?!?

/

81 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:00:13pm

re: #78 leftynyc

re: #79 albusteve

Thanks… you’re all lucky that you are so far away from me… I have about a thousand shots from that trip… I could make your eyes glaze over.

82 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:01:06pm

re: #71 darthstar

Sorry, I have completely lost my sense of humor on the subject. I’ll try to get it back, because I’m going to need it.

83 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:01:08pm

re: #70 Walter L. Newton

re: #79 albusteve

cool picture…I like it

That was taken just seconds before the Big Ape came across the clock holding Faye Raye!

84 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:02:40pm

re: #81 Walter L. Newton

re: #79 albusteve

Thanks… you’re all lucky that you are so far away from me… I have about a thousand shots from that trip… I could make your eyes glaze over.

If you eliminate all the ones of Hot French Chicks you took you’re down to a dozen!

85 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:05:18pm

Got to get ready for work… bb in a bit…

86 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:09:17pm

re: #78 leftynyc

If you’re able to switch camera modes, P or T are preferable - you get a whole lot more freedom to compose and adjust the exposures… but idiot mode lets you focus on the scene unfolding before you. I will usually shoot on P, A or T (program (auto-lite), aperture priority or shutter priority) , depending on the situation and will sometimes experiment with full manual.

For me, the joy of photography is the composition of the image, and if the technical details work out, so much the better.

87 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:11:13pm

re: #81 Walter L. Newton

Heh… I have close to 2k images from a week out at Yellowstone/Grand Teton. And 1k images from 10 days in Paris. Digital makes those kinds of numbers real easy - because you can experiment with different angles, settings, and layouts to get the compositions you want and you are limited only by the amount of memory cards (and spare batteries) you carry.

88 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:11:16pm

re: #66 wrenchwench

They didn’t undermine border security. The fence got them way up in the air where border patrol officers could see them, if they hadn’t already seen them cross that nice, wide clearing next to the fence. Also, that fence stops vehicles, which the string of barbed wire that was there before would not.

And I think that fence is big enough, so I guess I’m not a “build bigger fences” person, right?

Maybe the point of the video is we should have no fence at all, because it can be climbed. After all only perfect fences are acceptable.
Huh?

89 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:16:37pm

re: #88 Rightwingconspirator

Maybe the point of the video is we should have no fence at all, because it can be climbed. After all only perfect fences are acceptable.
Huh?

Video stated 4 million dollars spent for every 1 mile of fence built

Wonder how much per mile to electrify it if we were to use Green Energy (solar would seem feasible!)

That way, BOTH the “Build A Better Fence” AND the “Green” crowd would be happy ,, no !?!?!?!

90 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:17:06pm

BBIAB

91 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:17:32pm

Closing in on leaders and organizers of leaderless non-organization…
FBI Steps Up WikiLeaks-Linked Probe With Texas, Germany Raids

Jose Quinones, a Tailor Made Servers employee, said by e- mail that the authorities asked him not to speak to the press about the raid. Special Agent Mark White, a spokesman for the FBI field office in Dallas, confirmed the raid but said he couldn’t provide details other than those in the affidavit.

Cyber security experts said the servers may contain detailed log information, including data that could lead investigators back to individual computers and their users.

“Those servers are likely to have logs showing certain events — people setting up the server,” said Jose Nazario, a cyber security expert with Arbor Networks, based in Chelmsford, Massachusetts. “It gives you an indication of who the ring- leaders were.”
…
While it’s difficult for investigators to find the culprits behind so-called denial of service attacks, security experts say the assault by Anonymous could be an exception. To enlist thousands of volunteers to lend their personal computers to the attack, nicknamed “Operation Payback,” organizers were forced to discuss logistics and plans in open web forums.
…
Security experts who have tracked Anonymous and its roots say the group spans the U.S., Western Europe and Japan and is generally made up of middle and upper-class teenagers, most of them male.

The leaders number fewer than two dozen, according to one security expert, who has studied its members closely and asked for anonymity because he said the group is known to retaliate against critics or perceived enemies.

92 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:17:56pm

re: #89 sattv4u2

Just grease the poles. Cheap, renewable and the next video will be funny as hell.

93 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:19:50pm

re: #91 Killgore Trout

Closing in on leaders and organizers of leaderless non-organization…
FBI Steps Up WikiLeaks-Linked Probe With Texas, Germany Raids

“PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE NERD BEHIND THE CURTAIN! WE ARE THE GREAT AND POWERFUL ANON!”

“Reggie, there are some men here to see you about that computer thingy.”

“MOM!”

94 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:20:49pm

re: #88 Rightwingconspirator

Maybe the point of the video is we should have no fence at all, because it can be climbed. After all only perfect fences are acceptable.
Huh?

Maybe so. Fences bring out a lot of emotions, in many contexts. The one in the video screams “Fail!” if compared to a “perfect fence”. But it says success to me, because I saw parts of the border a few years ago that had NO fence. Nothing. Bill Richardson had most of a town in Mexico bulldozed, because it was a “wait for dark to make a dash” point just on the other side. I don’t know how he arranged it or got away with it. Most of the town was abandoned, but not all of it.

95 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:21:32pm

White nose syndrome threatens bat species

More than one million bats from at least seven species are estimated to have died from a disease called white nose syndrome for the way it covers their snouts like baby powder. This year, as white nose sweeps west from Northeast states such as Virginia and Pennsylvania to Oklahoma, scientists are bracing for the worst.

“The worry is great, tremendous,” said Greg Turner, an specialist in endangered mammals who works for the Pennsylvania Game Commission. Although white nose syndrome has been spotted in numerous Virginia caves, it hasn’t yet had a profound impact on the beloved Virginia big-eared bat.

But the most common resident of this region, the little brown bat, is barely hanging on. And two other species - the tri-colored bat and the northern long-eared bat - are expected to become extinct.

“I’m seeing 100 percent mortality of those two species,” Turner said. “We will have a 99 percent reduction of the little brown bat.”

Last winter, two-thirds of Pennsylvania’s more than 2,000 caves and 4,000 abandoned mines were affected by white nose syndrome, Turner said. This winter, game officials expect that “all the sites we know of will have white nose,” Turner said.

Although most people might not mourn the demise of bats, perhaps because of the creatures’ unearned reputation as a nocturnal bloodsucker, a major decrease in their numbers could pose a substantial ecological risk.

96 jaunte  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:21:34pm

re: #91 Killgore Trout

The leaders number fewer than two dozen, according to one security expert


One more episode of “24”

97 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:23:43pm

re: #89 sattv4u2

Well Caltrans spends 3.7 million per mile of sound wall, to protect residences from the freeway noise and pollution. What’s the big deal anyway?

98 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:24:38pm

re: #87 lawhawk

Heh… I have close to 2k images from a week out at Yellowstone/Grand Teton. And 1k images from 10 days in Paris. Digital makes those kinds of numbers real easy - because you can experiment with different angles, settings, and layouts to get the compositions you want and you are limited only by the amount of memory cards (and spare batteries) you carry.

I don’t do anything fancy with the setting… auto mode most of the time, and that picture was taken with one of those standard 10 mp blister packed camera’s.

I just purchased a new bargain basement 14 mp camera for this upcoming trip… already experimented with it… it should take the kind of pics I like.

Like you siad above… composition is more important to me than anything… but I rarely change any of the settings.

I’ve been told I have a good eye…

99 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:24:43pm

re: #94 wrenchwench
Good fences make for good neighbors.

100 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:27:11pm

Wikileaks can be fun!

101 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:27:46pm

re: #9 marjoriemoon

Now that we have that covered…

Does the R.G. have more power than than the Mullahs?

Yes, according to Bruce Bueno di Mosquito. This oddly named scholar has a computerized system for evaluating power games, and he’s been right when everybody else was wrong. He’s been wrong occasionally too; once, his prediction flopped when the key player on the side he said would win dropped dead.

Mosquito wrote about just this in his book The Predictioneer’s Game. He claimed, years in advance of this revelation, that the Revolutionary Guard held the real power, and would only be consolidating it over the next few years.

With computerized ratings, a la football rating schemes, everything known is taken into account. These ratings do a somewhat better job of predicting football games than do conventional assessments such as asking coaches, or looking at who beat whom and assuming the relation to be transitive.

Mosquito’s system works somewhat the same way; all the key players that can be identified have estimated intelligence, ruthlessness, and charisma ratings, and interests, that is, groups they want to help or goals they want to achieve. Then the game of power is played on the machine, repeatedly with variations to the ratings estimates so one gets a range of reasonably likely results.

The Revolutionary Guards have an economic base as well as military assets. They own some of the oil fields of Iran and own concessions or monopoly grants here and there. Shell corporations launder money.

For an analogy, imagine that the SS and the Gestapo had been [uncleverly] merged into one organization by Hitler, and had then staged a covert putsch, keeping him as figurehead only. Behind the scenes, Himmler, Heydrich, and Eichmann are running the show. And they’re feverishly working to build nukes.

It’s not a pretty picture.

102 theheat  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:29:10pm

re: #95 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I read that in Nat Geo the other day, and saw a map of several southern and eastern states affected.

I like bats. They’re very interesting creatures. They eat bugs and ‘skeeters, and with Wet Nile virus spreading, people might be a little more hospitable to them. We’re putting up some bat houses around our pond this year so they can take a bite out of the mosquito population.

103 leftynyc  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:29:16pm

re: #86 lawhawk

I only understand about half of what you wrote. If my hand is not shaking and the picture comes out in focus - I consider it a success.

104 Slap  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:31:54pm

re: #45 lawhawk

I have no audio or video on this (not that I haven’t tried….), but if any rockin’ Lizards ever happen across a copy of an EP by Tonio K called “La Bomba”, buy it. It’s a wonderful cold-war send-up of La Bamba (“For los gringos, la bomba - for los russos, la bomba….).

But is has a GREAT tune on the B side called Mars Needs Women (see, BARELY on topic….), well worth a listen and a laugh.

Tonio K is a great undiscovered treasure, BTW…..

105 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:31:58pm

re: #94 wrenchwench

Maybe so. Fences bring out a lot of emotions, in many contexts. The one in the video screams “Fail!” if compared to a “perfect fence”. But it says success to me, because I saw parts of the border a few years ago that had NO fence. Nothing. Bill Richardson had most of a town in Mexico bulldozed, because it was a “wait for dark to make a dash” point just on the other side. I don’t know how he arranged it or got away with it. Most of the town was abandoned, but not all of it.

I don’t know about the whole fence deal but I think creating a barrier to narcotics and arms smuggling traffic seems like a good idea to me. They don’t have to be in every part of the border since a vehicle can’t very well traverse roadless mountain areas. This barrier serves to thwart inbound and outbound smuggling.

106 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:32:21pm

re: #102 theheat

I read that in Nat Geo the other day, and saw a map of several southern and eastern states affected.

I like bats. They’re very interesting creatures. They eat bugs and ‘skeeters, and with Wet Nile virus spreading, people might be a little more hospitable to them. We’re putting up some bat houses around our pond this year so they can take a bite out of the mosquito population.

They say scientists are very excited because they’ve found some old bunkers the bats are using as nests which apparently have no trace of the fungus. They’re studying them now to see what the difference is and whether they can use that to save the species.

107 Sionainn  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:32:29pm

re: #95 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

White nose syndrome threatens bat species

You might find this interesting as well.

108 Sionainn  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:33:57pm

re: #106 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They say scientists are very excited because they’ve found some old bunkers the bats are using as nests which apparently have no trace of the fungus. They’re studying them now to see what the difference is and whether they can use that to save the species.

That’s great. Hope they can discover the cause and a possible cure for this.

109 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:34:56pm

re: #103 leftynyc

I only understand about half of what you wrote. If my hand is not shaking and the picture comes out in focus - I consider it a success.

Like I mentioned to Lawhawk… I don’t do anything special with the camera, as far as settings are concerned… the last camera I took to Paris was a 10 megapixel “blister packed” camera (I forgot what the make and model was), paid under 200 for it, and never did any more special than turn it off and on… but I got pictures like this…

Image: DSC00214.JPG

(Rue de Nevers)

110 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:35:41pm

re: #75 Taqyia2Me

OT: Just heard Baker Street musician Gerry Rafferty has died.
RIP.

Baker Street.

Youtube Video
111 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:35:49pm

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

Like I mentioned to Lawhawk… I don’t do anything special with the camera, as far as settings are concerned… the last camera I took to Paris was a 10 megapixel “blister packed” camera (I forgot what the make and model was), paid under 200 for it, and never did any more special than turn it off and on… but I got pictures like this…

Image: DSC00214.JPG

(Rue de Nevers)

Beautiful shot.

112 garhighway  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:37:29pm

Walter, if you have the time and haven’t been there yet, the day trip to Reims is worth the trouble. The cathedral is amazing, and the tours of the champagne cellars are fun. On the bullet train, it’s a 45 minute ride. That sucker is FAST.

113 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:38:09pm

re: #103 leftynyc

My sister in law and her husband have tens of thousands of pictures of their kids. We have a hundred (or so) of ours.

Funny how that works.

Oh, and I should mention, our children are much better looking.

I’m just saying.

114 justaminute  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:38:31pm

Things are really heating up for the Iranian government right now and Wiki just adds a little more fuel to the fire. Removal of subsidizes from gas and food has started to really rile up the people. No one likes walking in the winter, but no can afford to drive. The RG is one guard for rioting just like during the elections. It’s going to get really interesting there.

115 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:40:26pm

re: #112 garhighway

I did a champagne tour and Reims using the Grey Line tours. Next time, I’d probably take the train instead. The cathedral is notable for the Chagall stained glass (and its survival of both world wars).

116 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:41:12pm

Soils test for a shed the size of room? Fecking Boulder. I guess only rich people can put up a new shed there. )(@*$%(*!

117 garhighway  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:41:32pm

re: #115 lawhawk

I did a champagne tour and Reims using the Grey Line tours. Next time, I’d probably take the train instead. The cathedral is notable for the Chagall stained glass (and its survival of both world wars).

There’s been a lot of artillery fire in that part of Europe. It’s amazing anything is left.

118 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:42:03pm

re: #111 researchok

Beautiful shot.

My new camera, just bought it the other day (the last one I took to Paris disappeared with an old girlfriend) is a Kodak C195, 14 megapixel, takes AA batteries (I prefer replaceable batteries, makes it much easier than trying to recharge built in batteries in Europe), I use Eveready lithium’s… seems to do good in low light, and is capable of taking up to a 4 gig video file in a single shot.

I’ve tested it in low light, bright light, close up and general lighting, I’m pleased, for 99 dollars it will work fine for me.

119 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:43:00pm

re: #105 Gus 802

I don’t know about the whole fence deal but I think creating a barrier to narcotics and arms smuggling traffic seems like a good idea to me. They don’t have to be in every part of the border since a vehicle can’t very well traverse roadless mountain areas. This barrier serves to thwart inbound and outbound smuggling.

This reminds me of the whole Oregon Spotted Owl debacle.

An entire industry was virtually shut down, tens of thousands of jobs were lost and tens of millions of tax revenue was abandoned.

And despite it all, the Spotted Owl population is lower than ever.

We won’y have a fence/barrier, more drugs will cross the border and tragedy, violence and mayhem will increase.

But that’s OK, because we didn’t build a fence and that’s what really matters.

120 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:43:14pm

re: #112 garhighway

Walter, if you have the time and haven’t been there yet, the day trip to Reims is worth the trouble. The cathedral is amazing, and the tours of the champagne cellars are fun. On the bullet train, it’s a 45 minute ride. That sucker is FAST.

I’ll consider it. We have a few “open” days (one, maybe two) where we haven’t pre-planned anything. I’ve taken the TGV before, out to Burgundy, remarkable vehicle.

121 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:43:39pm

re: #116 Gus 802

Soils test for a shed the size of room? Fecking Boulder. I guess only rich people can put up a new shed there. )(@*$%(*!

LOL…..Soils test…. LOL
..Sorry …I was laughing WITH you…not at you!
..LOL

122 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:44:38pm

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

My new camera, just bought it the other day (the last one I took to Paris disappeared with an old girlfriend) is a Kodak C195, 14 megapixel, takes AA batteries (I prefer replaceable batteries, makes it much easier than trying to recharge built in batteries in Europe), I use Eveready lithium’s… seems to do good in low light, and is capable of taking up to a 4 gig video file in a single shot.

I’ve tested it in low light, bright light, close up and general lighting, I’m pleased, for 99 dollars it will work fine for me.

The art is in the eye, not the camera lens.

123 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:44:49pm

re: #119 researchok

Violence and mayhem have been declining, though, on our side of the border.

We already have a lot of fence. We can build more, I guess, but fences really aren’t magical. And they do actually cost money.

124 garhighway  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:45:53pm

re: #120 Walter L. Newton

Some of the tours require advance reservations, but some don’t. We did Pommery and Cliquot. Pommery was particularly fun, because you can choose up front to drink more bubbly at the end and they served a nice variety.

But it’s an easy day trip.

125 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:46:11pm

re: #105 Gus 802

I don’t know about the whole fence deal but I think creating a barrier to narcotics and arms smuggling traffic seems like a good idea to me. They don’t have to be in every part of the border since a vehicle can’t very well traverse roadless mountain areas. This barrier serves to thwart inbound and outbound smuggling.

Yeah, there may be downsides to the fence, like wildlife problems, but I hope there aren’t really people who think we should have NO barrier.

And speaking of outbound smuggling, I can’t believe they only started searching outbound travelers this year. The money they confiscate could pay for the fence!

126 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:46:17pm

re: #121 reloadingisnotahobby

LOL…Soils test… LOL
..Sorry …I was laughing WITH you…not at you!
..LOL

Yeah. Could have been a small job but you know the whiny bureaucrats. Denver’s much better. They have “use by right” and you can just assume a soil bearing pressure. That might mean a slight over-design but then you don’t have to fork out 2 grand for a soils test. It’s rather pathetic but that’s Boulder for ya’. I imagine they probably wanted “shadow studies” to go with that too.

127 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:46:52pm

re: #116 Gus 802
Soil Test?
…How long have you been ..ah…feeling…dirty?
We had a basket ball court three years before the neighbor said”So when can we shoot some hoops”?
Is the cement cured?

128 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:47:47pm

re: #123 Obdicut

Violence and mayhem have been declining, though, on our side of the border.

We already have a lot of fence. We can build more, I guess, but fences really aren’t magical. And they do actually cost money.

No passive security system is 100% effective. Against a dedicated attacker, the best you’ll get is a slight delay and warning if its monitored properly.

129 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:48:30pm

re: #128 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And many of our ‘illegal immigrants’ didn’t enter illegally. They just stayed illegally.

130 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:48:32pm

re: #123 Obdicut

Violence and mayhem have been declining, though, on our side of the border.

We already have a lot of fence. We can build more, I guess, but fences really aren’t magical. And they do actually cost money.

Declining in some areas, increasing in others.

No, fences aren’t magical- and neither is the Coast Guard.

However, they do slow things down and make a dent.

131 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:49:21pm

re: #119 researchok

Actually, we have built a lot of fence.

And I have always been of the opinion that it’s the unspotted owl we should be concerned about—-we don’t have a complete inventory of what we lose in a clearcut, especially if it’s old growth.

132 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:49:28pm

re: #127 reloadingisnotahobby

Soil Test?
…How long have you been ..ah…feeling…dirty?
We had a basket ball court three years before the neighbor said”So when can we shoot some hoops”?
Is the cement cured?

Then people wonder why they typically build new manufacturing facilities in certain geographic regions of this country. Planners typically think that developers, home owners, etc., have an unlimited supply of money. They don’t care if they kill a project.

133 darthstar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:49:50pm

Fuck… Rest in peace Gerry…

134 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:50:12pm

re: #125 wrenchwench

Yeah, there may be downsides to the fence, like wildlife problems, but I hope there aren’t really people who think we should have NO barrier.

And speaking of outbound smuggling, I can’t believe they only started searching outbound travelers this year. The money they confiscate could pay for the fence!

I can see it now. The Customs and Immigration at every Swissair boarding gate.

135 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:50:32pm

re: #129 Obdicut

And many of our ‘illegal immigrants’ didn’t enter illegally. They just stayed illegally.

I think we’ld be better off in the long run documenting and getting those in people in the system than wasting money on a fence in the middle of nowhere.

136 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:51:51pm

re: #130 researchok

Declining in some areas, increasing in others.

Where is it increasing? All of the scare statistics I saw about increasing crime turned out to be bogus.


No, fences aren’t magical- and neither is the Coast Guard.

However, they do slow things down and make a dent.

Okay. So how many do we need? We’ve got a bunch. Fences that aren’t manned are pretty much useless.

It’s not a binary fence/no fence decision.

137 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:52:11pm

re: #131 wrenchwench

Actually, we have built a lot of fence.

And I have always been of the opinion that it’s the unspotted owl we should be concerned about—-we don’t have a complete inventory of what we lose in a clearcut, especially if it’s old growth.

Clear cutting wasn’t the issue in Oregon. Never was. Oregon environmental laws pertaining to logging were very, very strict.

They wanted to kill the logging industry altogether- and they did.

138 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:53:12pm

re: #134 researchok

I can see it now. The Customs and Immigration at every Swissair boarding gate.

Mexico could help out a lot more in the effort to stop guns from crossing from here to there. Most times when you want to walk or drive into Mexico (especially walking) you don’t even have to talk to anyone. They may be watching, if they aren’t out to lunch.

139 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:53:20pm

re: #136 Obdicut

Where is it increasing? All of the scare statistics I saw about increasing crime turned out to be bogus.

Okay. So how many do we need? We’ve got a bunch. Fences that aren’t manned are pretty much useless.

It’s not a binary fence/no fence decision.

Where is it increasing?

Ask the folks at Nueva Laredo and Juarez how much better their life has gotten.

140 darthstar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:53:21pm

Ooh, foxy…a friend’s golden treed this one.

141 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:53:43pm

re: #137 researchok

Clear cutting wasn’t the issue in Oregon. Never was. Oregon environmental laws pertaining to logging were very, very strict.

They wanted to kill the logging industry altogether- and they did.

Cutting old growth was an issue, was it not?

142 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:54:38pm

re: #139 researchok

Where is it increasing?

Ask the folks at Nueva Laredo and Juarez how much better their life has gotten.

He specifically said “our side”.

143 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:54:49pm

re: #139 researchok

Where is it increasing?

Ask the folks at Nueva Laredo and Juarez how much better their life has gotten.

Um, those locations are in Mexico.

144 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:56:42pm

re: #137 researchok

Clear cutting wasn’t the issue in Oregon. Never was. Oregon environmental laws pertaining to logging were very, very strict.

They wanted to kill the logging industry altogether- and they did.

Yeah. But all of those loggers and lumbermen can just go back to school and get a new job in the service or healthcare industry. I’m sure their livelihoods and careers were taken into consideration and they were well taken care of by “the system”.

//

145 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:57:30pm

re: #137 researchok

Clear cutting wasn’t the issue in Oregon. Never was. Oregon environmental laws pertaining to logging were very, very strict.

They wanted to kill the logging industry altogether- and they did.

Not dead yet.

Image: regionalharvest.gif

146 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:57:35pm

re: #141 wrenchwench

Cutting old growth was an issue, was it not?

As I recall, there was a lottery for very selective old growth cutting. What ever they cut had to be replaced (2-1, I think).

Also, a lot of the land was owned by those companies. That was circumvented by the Spotted Owl rulings.

I don’t recall all the details but there was a whole lot of controversy at the time.

147 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:58:44pm

re: #143 Obdicut

Um, those locations are in Mexico.

The impact would then be arms smuggling into Mexico.

148 garhighway  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 1:58:49pm

re: #69 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So after years of scandals where businesses cripple the economy due to breaking regulations, what does the GOP decide to do?

Darrell Issa Asks Businesses Which Regulations Should be Killed

Here’s a quick guess: Toyota will want to gut NHTSA’s regulatory authority.

Or should I say, put the brakes on it.

149 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:00:05pm

re: #136 Obdicut

Of course all and any contraband enters illegally. As do the carriers or the contraband. The fact that fences are not “magical”, not perfect in application is a poor argument against them. Fences are just one facet of what should be a well monitored and enforced border.

150 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:00:09pm

I sense comedy beginning…

Congress Rediscovers the Constitution

The House Republican majority has said it will require members to cite the specific authority for any bill they introduce

Require bills to include a clause citing its authority in the Constitution

151 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:00:36pm

re: #147 Gus 802

I really don’t think that sort of smuggling is being done by people crossing the desert on foot, though.

Border security is an issue. It’s mainly an issue of people, not of fences. Fence vs. human = human wins. We’re cool like that. The Berlin wall didn’t stop people by being a wall. It stopped them by having guards that would shoot people manning that wall.

152 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:00:40pm

re: #143 Obdicut

Um, those locations are in Mexico.

Um, yes. Border locations.

And American citizens have been killed at border locations. And American law enforcement have been killed and threatened.

But a fence is a bad idea? Even though the Feds have yet to come through in a meaningful way in securing those borders?

154 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:01:45pm

re: #151 Obdicut

I really don’t think that sort of smuggling is being done by people crossing the desert on foot, though.

Border security is an issue. It’s mainly an issue of people, not of fences. Fence vs. human = human wins. We’re cool like that. The Berlin wall didn’t stop people by being a wall. It stopped them by having guards that would shoot people manning that wall.

And huge amounts of drugs coming in across the border is a small matter.

155 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:01:48pm

re: #151 Obdicut

I really don’t think that sort of smuggling is being done by people crossing the desert on foot, though.

Border security is an issue. It’s mainly an issue of people, not of fences. Fence vs. human = human wins. We’re cool like that. The Berlin wall didn’t stop people by being a wall. It stopped them by having guards that would shoot people manning that wall.

Right. Which is why I mentioned a barrier before. A vehicle barrier as opposed to a fence will work.

157 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:02:48pm

re: #149 Rightwingconspirator

Of course all and any contraband enters illegally. As do the carriers or the contraband. The fact that fences are not “magical”, not perfect in application is a poor argument against them. Fences are just one facet of what should be a well monitored and enforced border.

But how many fences? How much? That’s what I’m asking. We already have fences. How much more fencing do we need, and what will the actual, measurable benefit be?

158 ContinentalOp  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:04:41pm

As with all Wikileaks, remember that this is raw data. A source told someone this story and he/she — as he/she is supposed to — passed it on unconfirmed.

159 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:04:41pm

See you all later… 6 hour shift coming up, then off until Sat. midnight… see you later this evening or in the AM.

160 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:06:01pm

re: #157 Obdicut

But how many fences? How much? That’s what I’m asking. We already have fences. How much more fencing do we need, and what will the actual, measurable benefit be?

Why are measurable criteria an issue?

We don’t make that a criteria for funding the Coast Guard.

The more resources we commit to border security, the fewer drugs will come through. Does that make for a bad investment?

So much for ‘measurable criteria’.

161 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:06:03pm

re: #158 ContinentalOp

As with all Wikileaks, remember that this is raw data. A source told someone this story and he/she — as he/she is supposed to — passed it on unconfirmed.

Welcome, hatchling.

162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:06:14pm

re: #153 Gus 802

Dang.

163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:07:05pm

re: #158 ContinentalOp

If it is true, that strikes me as a gigantic insult in that part of the world.

I hope it’s true.

164 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:07:40pm

re: #152 researchok

Um, yes. Border locations.

And American citizens have been killed at border locations. And American law enforcement have been killed and threatened./blockquote>

Where has there been an increase in crime?


But a fence is a bad idea? Even though the Feds have yet to come through in a meaningful way in securing those borders?

Okay, what do you mean by ‘a fence’? Can you describe what this fence will be, and how it will be different from the current fences, and how it will work?

And huge amounts of drugs coming in across the border is a small matter.

You can’t stop the flow of drugs by trying to constrict the flow. You’ll just raise the price.

165 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:08:45pm

re: #160 researchok

Why are measurable criteria an issue?

We don’t make that a criteria for funding the Coast Guard.

The more resources we commit to border security, the fewer drugs will come through. Does that make for a bad investment?

So much for ‘measurable criteria’.

Drugs will always find a way in. ALWAYS. The “war on drugs” is state sponsored market protection for the racketeers who move drugs around. It’s stupid, venal, and profitable for governments as well as criminals. I hate it.

166 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:08:54pm

Find the middle ground. It’s not about all or nothing solutions. Can’t build a fence/barrier everywhere however we still need a fence/barrier in many places.

167 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:08:57pm

re: #160 researchok

Why are measurable criteria an issue?
.

Because I’m a fiscal conservative.


We don’t make that a criteria for funding the Coast Guard.

Yes, we do. That’s why we don’t spend an infinite amount of money on it.

The more resources we commit to border security, the fewer drugs will come through. Does that make for a bad investment?

Eventually, yes, it does. We don’t have infinite resources.

So much for ‘measurable criteria’

I’m really not understanding why you’re treating a ‘does this approach actually make sense from an effectiveness and financial sense’ with absolute contempt.

169 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:09:38pm

re: #162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dang.

That expresses my feelings as well.

170 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:10:21pm

re: #166 Gus 802

Find the middle ground. It’s not about all or nothing solutions. Can’t build a fence/barrier everywhere however we still need a fence/barrier in many places.

Sure. That I’m fine with. When people say ‘a fence’, however, it seems like magical thinking to me. Hell, in some places, we probably could do with four or five.

But we’ll never stop the flow of drugs. We also won’t really stop the flow of illegal immigrants. From a humanitarian perspective, we will be able to save more lives if we constrict the number of places they cross the border, so that’s one reason that everyone should be for constricting the border in some ways.

171 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:11:56pm

re: #153 Gus 802

I was in the Phillipines once when a local militia just took over the bar I was in. Lots of hypermacho dudes prodding people’s chests with M-16s. Not very comfy.

172 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:14:46pm

re: #164 Obdicut

Okay, what do you mean by ‘a fence’? Can you describe what this fence will be, and how it will be different from the current fences, and how it will work?

You can’t stop the flow of drugs by trying to constrict the flow. You’ll just raise the price.

Of course the majority of the southern border is ‘safe’. It is an unpopulated area.

The problem is increased crime in the populated areas.

In Mexico’s Ciudad Juárez, murder is a way of life

Crime on the Rise in One El Paso Area

The same applies to Tijuana and other areas. Along some places on the border(American side) people are warned to stay away.

Where there is a sizable population, there is increasing crime.

173 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:15:17pm

re: #172 researchok

I don’t know how else I can make it clear that I’m asking for increasing crime on the American side of the border.

174 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:15:52pm

re: #170 Obdicut

Sure. That I’m fine with. When people say ‘a fence’, however, it seems like magical thinking to me. Hell, in some places, we probably could do with four or five.

But we’ll never stop the flow of drugs. We also won’t really stop the flow of illegal immigrants. From a humanitarian perspective, we will be able to save more lives if we constrict the number of places they cross the border, so that’s one reason that everyone should be for constricting the border in some ways.

From a humanitarian perspective the responsibility lies within Mexico and the rest of Central America. Currently, Felipe Calderón has lost all control of Mexico and seems intent on blaming all of Mexico’s centuries old problems on North America.

175 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:16:27pm

re: #165 wrenchwench

Drugs will always find a way in. ALWAYS. The “war on drugs” is state sponsored market protection for the racketeers who move drugs around. It’s stupid, venal, and profitable for governments as well as criminals. I hate it.

I don’y disagree one bit.

My argument is that the more we do to interdict drugs the better off we will all be.

176 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:17:07pm

re: #168 reine.de.tout

Wow.
How creepy is that?

Extra creepy?

177 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:18:39pm

re: #172 researchok

From your second link:

Pebble Hills has seen a 3% increase in crime since this time last year. It’s the only region that’s seen an increase. Maloney says assaults and robberies are driving their crime numbers.

“We have more nightclubs that have opened up, more bars, and that generates more assaults,”

You cannot make a case that El Paso has increasing crime.

You could make a case that crime is being dragged across the border, and people who live in El Paso are taken to Juarez to be killed. But El Paso is the first or second safest city of its size in the USA.

178 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:18:58pm

re: #173 Obdicut

I don’t know how else I can make it clear that I’m asking for increasing crime on the American side of the border.

Yeah, what would the authorities in El Paso know.

179 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:19:28pm

re: #175 researchok

I don’y disagree one bit.

My argument is that the more we do to interdict drugs the better off we will all be.

And my argument is in direct contradiction to that.

180 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:20:25pm

Maybe we can stop the childish hyperbole about this guy being hitler and the most powerful evil force in the entire universe IF HE’S NOT EVEN IN CHARGE OF HIS OWN COUNTRY

181 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:20:59pm

I can see no way anything could possibly go wrong in this scenario.

Navy’s New Warship: Bargain, Death Trap or Both?

“We have a warship design that is not expected to fight and survive in the very environment in which it was produced to do so,” one critic at the U.S. Naval Institute blog claims, describing the LCS as “poorly armed” and “poorly protected” for dangerous, crowded coastal waters.

When the LCS deals were announced last week, Navy Secretary Ray Mabus crowed that they would “provide needed ships to our fleet in a timely and extraordinarily cost-effective manner.” Instead of picking one shipbuilder, the Navy tapped rival firms Austal and Lockheed Martin to build 10 LCS apiece through 2015, each using its own distinct design.

The cost per ship? Just $450 million, at least $200 million below the cost of each of the four prototypes.

But to get those low, low prices, the ships will be built to commercial, rather than military, structural standards — meaning they’re lighter and less blast- and fire-resistant. Indeed, the Navy does not plan to subject the LCS to traditional blast-testing, “due to the damage that would be sustained by the ship,” the Congressional Research Service points out.

The LCS also optimizes speed over weaponry. Lockheed’s version has what Operations Officer Tony Hyde, from USS Freedom (the first Lockheed prototype), described as “the largest marine gas turbines in the world — essentially the engines of a 777 jetliner.”

The turbines’ 100,000 horsepower can propel the LCS at up to 50 knots, compared to 30 for most warships. But that high speed “will eat through a fuel supply in half a day,” the USNI critic scoffs.

182 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:21:09pm

re: #178 researchok

Yeah, what would the authorities in El Paso know.

Did you read that article, dude?

Pebble Hills has seen a 3% increase in crime since this time last year. It’s the only region that’s seen an increase. Maloney says assaults and robberies are driving their crime numbers.

“We have more nightclubs that have opened up, more bars, and that generates more assaults,” Maloney said. He also said the population in the region has gone up by about 25% in the last 10 years. They also have the highest volume of calls. So if you’re calling about something minor, like a loud party, it may be a while until a unit can come out.

“Sometimes we can’t make it to those calls for 4, 5, or 6 hours,” Maloney said.

We checked the police-to-person ratio here in El Paso versus other cities. El Paso has a rate of 1.4 officers per 1,000 people. In comparison, Austin has 2 per 1,000. In order to achieve Austin’s ratio, we’d need about 120 more officers.

There is nothing in that article that in any way cites the border as a cause for these problems. instead, it points to the population growth, new nightclubs, and a low ratio of police officers.

183 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:21:25pm

re: #178 researchok

Yeah, what would the authorities in El Paso know.

See #177. That’s what they know.

184 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:22:25pm

re: #52 MikeySDCA

On general principles A-jad deserves to be slapped. Anyone who does it, on whatever pretext, is on the side of the angels.

Wow, you’re a moron!

185 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:22:35pm

The DEA estimates they interdict about 5-10% of the drugs entering the US. That number has never really varied that much in the entirety of the ‘drug war’, because when you exert pressure, you increase the profits of the gangs moving the product. It’s economics.

Interdiction will never remove drugs from our streets. Ever.

186 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:22:56pm

re: #177 wrenchwench

From your second link:

You cannot make a case that El Paso has increasing crime.

You could make a case that crime is being dragged across the border, and people who live in El Paso are taken to Juarez to be killed. But El Paso is the first or second safest city of its size in the USA.

Statistics.

It all depends on how you wring out the laundry.

187 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:23:25pm

re: #185 Obdicut

The DEA estimates they interdict about 5-10% of the drugs entering the US. That number has never really varied that much in the entirety of the ‘drug war’, because when you exert pressure, you increase the profits of the gangs moving the product. It’s economics.

Interdiction will never remove drugs from our streets. Ever.

more magical thinking

188 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:24:30pm

re: #180 WindUpBird

Maybe we can stop the childish hyperbole about this guy being hitler and the most powerful evil force in the entire universe IF HE’S NOT EVEN IN CHARGE OF HIS OWN COUNTRY

When did we start talking about Obama?
///

189 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:24:39pm

re: #180 WindUpBird

Maybe we can stop the childish hyperbole about this guy being hitler and the most powerful evil force in the entire universe IF HE’S NOT EVEN IN CHARGE OF HIS OWN COUNTRY

I’ve always leaned more toward the idea that Ahmedinejad is a puppet—but that gets less comforting when you see the people he’s a puppet OF.

190 garhighway  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:25:11pm

re: #172 researchok

Of course the majority of the southern border is ‘safe’. It is an unpopulated area.

The problem is increased crime in the populated areas.

In Mexico’s Ciudad Juárez, murder is a way of life

Crime on the Rise in One El Paso Area

The same applies to Tijuana and other areas. Along some places on the border(American side) people are warned to stay away.

Where there is a sizable population, there is increasing crime.

It seems to me that you are making the argument for legalizing drugs, not for a border fence. After all, the crime in Cuidad Juarez and Nueva Laredo probably won’t change one tiny little bit based on the kind of fence we have there: that’s Mexican-on-Mexican drug violence. There’s no doubt that our drug habits are a root cause of that violence, but it ain’t about a fence or lack thereof.

I agree with you that the prevention of crime on our side of the border is a good reason for an effective fence. That means some places ought to get one and others maybe not. Hypothetically, would you build a super-expensive fence to protect a stretch of desert where we have only one inhabited dwelling within 20 miles of the border? Or would you think about spending those dollars elsewhere?

191 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:25:27pm

re: #177 wrenchwench

From your second link:

You cannot make a case that El Paso has increasing crime.

You could make a case that crime is being dragged across the border, and people who live in El Paso are taken to Juarez to be killed. But El Paso is the first or second safest city of its size in the USA.

If crime is ‘being dragged across the border’ does that make it less of a crime?

Further, isn’t the increase in drug smuggling a crime?

192 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:25:58pm

re: #186 researchok

Statistics.

It all depends on how you wring out the laundry.

Would fuck you be too strong?

I’m going to take a break.

193 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:26:40pm

re: #157 Obdicut

That is easily defined. Not easily done. But, national responsibilities are often difficult or expensive.

You do exactly as much as you need to monitor and properly enforce the border. Fences where fences work, foot patrols where they work best, etc.

194 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:27:10pm

re: #190 garhighway

It seems to me that you are making the argument for legalizing drugs, not for a border fence. After all, the crime in Cuidad Juarez and Nueva Laredo probably won’t change one tiny little bit based on the kind of fence we have there: that’s Mexican-on-Mexican drug violence. There’s no doubt that our drug habits are a root cause of that violence, but it ain’t about a fence or lack thereof.

I agree with you that the prevention of crime on our side of the border is a good reason for an effective fence. That means some places ought to get one and others maybe not. Hypothetically, would you build a super-expensive fence to protect a stretch of desert where we have only one inhabited dwelling within 20 miles of the border? Or would you think about spending those dollars elsewhere?

I don’t know.

That said, the Governors of some of those border states would be better qualified to answer those questions. And they have been asking for help for a long time.

195 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:31:20pm

Mexican Drug Trafficking

196 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:32:33pm

Well. There is this.

El Paso Has Lowest Murder Rate in 46 Years

But that’s a record low for a reason. Not because we did nothing.

While we’re at it there’s also this:

El Paso strip club murder suspect extradited from Reynosa

Member of the Barrio Azteca gang.

Drug smuggling into the USA from Mexico finances the drug cartels and the drug wars there. Right now the War on Drugs continues and it is also being supported and prosecuted by the Obama administration. Everytime people buy drugs in the USA from Mexico they are helping to finance the drugs wars and murders in Central America.

197 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:33:06pm

re: #192 wrenchwench

Would fuck you be too strong?

I’m going to take a break.

Yes, FU is too strong.

By far.

198 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:33:16pm

re: #195 researchok

Which will not be stopped or significantly hindered by a fence. Or much of anything. The harder we fight the ‘drug war’, the more we raise the incentive for the gangs and smugglers. It causes more death, and costs more money. That’s all. The amount of drugs on the street does not change.

199 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:35:49pm

re: #198 Obdicut

Which will not be stopped or significantly hindered by a fence. Or much of anything. The harder we fight the ‘drug war’, the more we raise the incentive for the gangs and smugglers. It causes more death, and costs more money. That’s all. The amount of drugs on the street does not change.

But if we legalize drugs in the USA that won’t change things for Mexico. They’ll continue to smuggle drugs in the USA. That exchange will also continue to finance the drug cartels and murders in Central America. Right now, both President Obama and President Calderone are oppose to any legalization. California couldn’t even pass a law legalizing pot.

200 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:35:51pm

re: #196 Gus 802

Well. There is this.

El Paso Has Lowest Murder Rate in 46 Years

But that’s a record low for a reason. Not because we did nothing.

While we’re at it there’s also this:

El Paso strip club murder suspect extradited from Reynosa

Member of the Barrio Azteca gang.

Drug smuggling into the USA from Mexico finances the drug cartels and the drug wars there. Right now the War on Drugs continues and it is also being supported and prosecuted by the Obama administration. Everytime people buy drugs in the USA from Mexico they are helping to finance the drugs wars and murders in Central America.

Considering drug smuggling and the crime that comes with it as crimes really upends the meme.

201 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:37:18pm

re: #199 Gus 802

But if we legalize drugs in the USA that won’t change things for Mexico. They’ll continue to smuggle drugs in the USA

Well, as far as the prices change in the US, that will make the drugs coming from Mexico less of a viable way to make money.

Prohibition has already served as a model for this.

. That exchange will also continue to finance the drug cartels and murders in Central America. Right now, both President Obama and President Calderone are oppose to any legalization. California couldn’t even pass a law legalizing pot.

Yep. This is one thing that Obama is dead wrong on. And Biden is even worse.

202 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:38:00pm

re: #200 researchok

Considering drug smuggling and the crime that comes with it as crimes really upends the meme.

Like I said. American drug users are financing the drug cartels. Even if we legalized drugs in the USA that would not stop drug smuggling.

203 garhighway  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:38:18pm

re: #194 researchok

I don’t know.

That said, the Governors of some of those border states would be better qualified to answer those questions. And they have been asking for help for a long time.

I’m sure they are asking for it: they are getting a lot of constituent pressure. How they would spend those dollars if it were their call is something we’ll never know. My bet would be that if a big sack of cash were dropped on them, and they were told they could spend all or some of it on a fence, a lot of that money would end up elsewhere in the state budget. Because when they had to make some real decisions, they would have to leave the world of posturing and enter the world of governing, where nuance matters and shades of gray prevail.

204 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:38:21pm

re: #200 researchok

You’re not going to get decreased drug smuggling by building fences, though.

The smuggling happens in accordance with the laws of supply and demand.

205 garhighway  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:40:11pm

re: #202 Gus 802

Like I said. American drug users are financing the drug cartels. Even if we legalized drugs in the USA that would not stop drug smuggling.

When the Jaurez cartel has to compete with RJ Reynolds, you will see prices drop and cartel profits diminish drastically.

It might not stop smuggling, but it would reduce it a whole bunch.

206 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:40:36pm

re: #198 Obdicut

Which will not be stopped or significantly hindered by a fence. Or much of anything. The harder we fight the ‘drug war’, the more we raise the incentive for the gangs and smugglers. It causes more death, and costs more money. That’s all. The amount of drugs on the street does not change.

How do you know what will be stopped or hindered?

Funny thing about that- the more we spend on the Coast Guard and air interdiction the more it seems to work.

Also, the Governors of some of these states seem to think spending the money is a good idea.

207 Kid A  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:40:37pm

Mama Grizzly has come out from her recent Twiteer hibernation, all ready for some good ‘ol fashioned gay bashin’.
Your text to link…

208 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:42:32pm

re: #204 Obdicut

You’re not going to get decreased drug smuggling by building fences, though.

The smuggling happens in accordance with the laws of supply and demand.

The idea is to slow them them down, make it harder.

Giving up because of supply and demand is not an option.

209 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:42:37pm

re: #206 researchok

Funny thing about that- the more we spend on the Coast Guard and air interdiction the more it seems to work.
/blockquote>

This isn’t actually true, though. I’m not sure why you think it is. Can you explain?

If you ask the DEA, they will say that their rate of interdiction is about 10%. Which is the same as it always has been.

If we spend more money on interdiction, we interdict more. Which raises the price. Which gives more incentive to send more drugs. So more are sent.

210 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:42:46pm

re: #207 Kid A

Mama Grizzly has come out from her recent Twiteer hibernation, all ready for some good ‘ol fashioned gay bashin’.
Your text to link…

I’m not even sure what that means. Is she for or against repealing DADT?

211 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:43:00pm

re: #209 Obdicut

BRB- client on tel

212 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:43:16pm

re: #209 Obdicut

Screwed up my formatting. Sorry.

213 researchok  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:43:28pm

re: #211 researchok

PAYING client!

214 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:43:45pm

re: #205 garhighway

When the Jaurez cartel has to compete with RJ Reynolds, you will see prices drop and cartel profits diminish drastically.

It might not stop smuggling, but it would reduce it a whole bunch.

For marijuana crops. But that wouldn’t impact cocaine, heroin, etc. The only way it could work is if they also legalized marijuana crops in Mexico.

But then we might face another problem. Much like we currently have with alcohol abuse I have no doubt we would be seeing the negative impact of marijuana abuse in the general population. Widespread and long term use would also see an increase in lung cancer, and other diseases.

215 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:45:45pm

The argument that the border is too big to enforce is a cop out. So is the argument that anything short of perfection makes it inadequate. With your nation comes responsibility. Like prperly managing your border, for all the right reasons. immigration, smuggling, security just for a couple.

For a simple analogy take a look at the I-5, or I-40 interstate highways. Thousands of linear miles through various terrains. Various climates. Goes through a number of states like the border runs along a few states. There are hundreds of laws to enforce from speeding to DUI, and truck weight.

Yet despite all the challenges named, the various highway patrols do a pretty good job of enforcing the laws of the road. Not perfect of course, but without that enforcement it would be mayhem out there.

Just like the border.

216 Kid A  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:48:14pm

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist

I made a mistake. This was re-Tweet from Tammy Bruce, who’s (for those that don’t know) a lesbian talk-show host out of L.A. I’m not going to speak for Palin, because she has never (to my knowledge) said anything about DADT, whether for or against. I have my doubts that she was pro-repeal because that would’ve deep-sixed her, but until this is clarified, I stand corrected for not reading this post at Powerline more closely.

217 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:48:32pm

re: #215 Rightwingconspirator

The argument that the border is too big to enforce is a cop out. So is the argument that anything short of perfection makes it inadequate. With your nation comes responsibility. Like prperly managing your border, for all the right reasons. immigration, smuggling, security just for a couple.

For a simple analogy take a look at the I-5, or I-40 interstate highways. Thousands of linear miles through various terrains. Various climates. Goes through a number of states like the border runs along a few states. There are hundreds of laws to enforce from speeding to DUI, and truck weight.

Yet despite all the challenges named, the various highway patrols do a pretty good job of enforcing the laws of the road. Not perfect of course, but without that enforcement it would be mayhem out there.

Just like the border.

That works.

218 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:51:32pm

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

I’ve always leaned more toward the idea that Ahmedinejad is a puppet—but that gets less comforting when you see the people he’s a puppet OF.

Oh yeah! I just reject the whole goofy talk-radio-right-wing-schlock meme of making it all about Ahmadenajad, like he’s some mighty fascist from the dark future. It’s so much more complicated and scary than that *_*

219 blueraven  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:51:41pm

re: #216 Kid A

I made a mistake. This was re-Tweet from Tammy Bruce, who’s (for those that don’t know) a [very conservative] lesbian talk-show host out of L.A. I’m not going to speak for Palin, because she has never (to my knowledge) said anything about DADT, whether for or against. I have my doubts that she was pro-repeal because that would’ve deep-sixed her, but until this is clarified, I stand corrected for not reading this post at Powerline more closely.

FIFY

220 Soap_Man  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:52:21pm

Afternoon everyone?

221 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:52:28pm

re: #216 Kid A

I made a mistake. This was re-Tweet from Tammy Bruce, who’s (for those that don’t know) a lesbian talk-show host out of L.A. I’m not going to speak for Palin, because she has never (to my knowledge) said anything about DADT, whether for or against. I have my doubts that she was pro-repeal because that would’ve deep-sixed her, but until this is clarified, I stand corrected for not reading this post at Powerline more closely.

UGGGGH TAMMY BRUCE, TERRIBLE SHOW, just so pandering and ick

222 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:52:30pm

re: #112 garhighway

Walter, if you have the time and haven’t been there yet, the day trip to Reims is worth the trouble. The cathedral is amazing, and the tours of the champagne cellars are fun. On the bullet train, it’s a 45 minute ride. That sucker is FAST.

Amiens is great too. The cathedral there is pretty much the whole show, but it’s arguably the most impressive cathedral ever built. From the outside, it’s an impressive piece of work. Every little thing has been decorated, so that the design gives the impression of infinite complexity. It’s a Mandelbrot set, before its time.

From the inside, the sheer scale of the arches and vaults is breathtaking. One gets inside, and looks up,

and up

and up. And then one walks around a bit, and the jaw drops: that up up up was the view from the peripheral arches. In the center, it goes up all the way to infinity. Or as near as human skill with stone can achieve. The theological message is unmistakable.

But it’s not just size and complexity at work. The design has the kind of visible perfection of a bridge, the logical perfection to which Edna St. Vincent Millay was referring with her famous poem “Euclid Alone…”. And then there’s the stained glass windows.

There’s a little display off in an odd nook showing how the thing was made. No steel, no modern cranes, no engines. No calculus and vector stress diagrams to make sure the stresses all balance out. Somehow they did it. Just as a show of fine workmanship its breathtaking.

223 Soap_Man  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:53:10pm

re: #220 Soap_Man

Afternoon everyone?

Wow, I just pulled a Ron Burgendy there.

224 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:53:24pm

re: #214 Gus 802

We already have widespread use of marijuana in the population. Almost nobody who wants it is going without it— like during Prohibition.

Use would rise. But legalizing it might actually help safer forms— edible, vapor, etc.— get used.

I’m not actually for full legalization of all drugs. Some are too inherently dangerous, like PCP. Others should only ever be given under the aegis of a doctor or other medical professional, with an aim on reduction.

But marijuana is such a dumb thing to be fighting tooth and nail.

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:53:29pm

re: #218 WindUpBird

Oh yeah! I just reject the whole goofy talk-radio-right-wing-schlock meme of making it all about Ahmadenajad, like he’s some mighty fascist from the dark future. It’s so much more complicated and scary than that *_*

He’s visible. Which is, of course, his job.

226 garhighway  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:53:48pm

re: #215 Rightwingconspirator

The argument that the border is too big to enforce is a cop out. So is the argument that anything short of perfection makes it inadequate. With your nation comes responsibility. Like prperly managing your border, for all the right reasons. immigration, smuggling, security just for a couple.

For a simple analogy take a look at the I-5, or I-40 interstate highways. Thousands of linear miles through various terrains. Various climates. Goes through a number of states like the border runs along a few states. There are hundreds of laws to enforce from speeding to DUI, and truck weight.

Yet despite all the challenges named, the various highway patrols do a pretty good job of enforcing the laws of the road. Not perfect of course, but without that enforcement it would be mayhem out there.

Just like the border.

And therefore what, exactly? Because a border exists, we MUST build a big bad fence there?

Or is there just a little more nuance to that decision?

If border=fence, then we have a shitload of fence building to do up north, don’t we? We generally don’t go crazy building fences across our northern border because we have determined we don’t need to. Might that analysis also apply to SOME of the southern border?

For me, the right call is to build a fence where it makes sense and to not build one where it doesn’t. That calls for the exercise of judgment and discretion, which is hard. But such is governing in a world of finite resources.

227 sizzleRI  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:54:40pm

re: #214 Gus 802

For marijuana crops. But that wouldn’t impact cocaine, heroin, etc. The only way it could work is if they also legalized marijuana crops in Mexico.

But then we might face another problem. Much like we currently have with alcohol abuse I have no doubt we would be seeing the negative impact of marijuana abuse in the general population. Widespread and long term use would also see an increase in lung cancer, and other diseases.

I don’t see that. Marijuana in the United States is ubiquitous. It is not difficult to obtain. At all. It was easier to obtain before I turned 21 than buying alcohol.That to me really says everything.

I have friends who smoke and friends who do not. The ones who choose not to do not do so because it is illegal. They don’t smoke because they don’t like it. Like cigarettes or alcohol.

228 garhighway  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:55:31pm

re: #222 lostlakehiker

Closer to home, the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in NYC is the largest gothic cathedral in the world. It is worth a look if you are ever in town. They have climbing tours on the weekends.

229 Kid A  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:56:04pm

re: #221 WindUpBird

I agree. Sometimes, her shtick makes the Harpy look tame by comparison. But this re-Tweet business has the freak show over at Hot Air all up in arms! Read on…
Your text to link…

230 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:57:00pm

re: #227 sizzleRI

I don’t see that. Marijuana in the United States is ubiquitous. It is not difficult to obtain. At all. It was easier to obtain before I turned 21 than buying alcohol.That to me really says everything.

I have friends who smoke and friends who do not. The ones who choose not to do not do so because it is illegal. They don’t smoke because they don’t like it. Like cigarettes or alcohol.

It’s so easy to obtain in Portland dealers complain about how difficult it is to make money, hahah

I don’t know a SINGLE person who ever chose not to smoke weed because it was illegal. Some elected not to because they worked for the government and knew they’d be pee-tested. And of course, they did other stuff that the pee-test didn’t catch.

231 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:57:26pm

re: #226 garhighway

I had said in a previous post above that where fences work use fences. Where foot patrols are best use those. But in no case does it make sense to fail to properly monitor and enforce your border.

232 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:58:07pm

re: #229 Kid A

I agree. Sometimes, her shtick makes the Harpy look tame by comparison. But this re-Tweet business has the freak show over at Hot Air all up in arms! Read on…
Your text to link…

I have a perverse fascination for bad radio, because I’m a fan of really good talk radio and the good hosts are constantly exposing the biz and talking about how bad hosts get shows and support despite being skill-free fools who would be better off selling shoes

233 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:58:22pm

re: #209 Obdicut

Geez Louise. Classical economics indicates that when the price rises, (and interdiction efforts drive up the price), demand falls. So LESS is consumed.

More may be put into the pipeline, but less reaches the other end.

In Singapore, their interdiction efforts are very successful and consumption is very low. Efforts to supply the Singapore market are sporadic, because everyone caught bringing in merchant-scale batches of hard drugs is executed.

China was right to rise up in rebellion against the British forcing China to legalize the sale and consumption of opium. The scale of drug use that naturally results from legalization is very damaging to society. The Chinese were right to view the evils of war as the lesser evil.

234 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 2:58:23pm

re: #224 Obdicut

We already have widespread use of marijuana in the population. Almost nobody who wants it is going without it— like during Prohibition.

Use would rise. But legalizing it might actually help safer forms— edible, vapor, etc.— get used.

I’m not actually for full legalization of all drugs. Some are too inherently dangerous, like PCP. Others should only ever be given under the aegis of a doctor or other medical professional, with an aim on reduction.

But marijuana is such a dumb thing to be fighting tooth and nail.

Right now legal marijuana being sold as “medicinal marijuana” is a rather hit and miss proposition being somewhat controlled by a few states. National legalization would mean that marijuana would have to pass the scrutiny of the FDA and I seriously doubt it would be seen as passive as many paint it to be. Especially when you consider that the current reports are saying that even on single tobacco cigarette is harmful — and I do see tobacco as being on day illegal in this country at the rate we’re going. The only alternative would be a synthetic form that has zero impact on the human body.

235 sizzleRI  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:00:23pm

re: #230 WindUpBird

It’s so easy to obtain in Portland dealers complain about how difficult it is to make money, hahah

That remind me of the Chris Rock joke that drug dealers don’t sell drugs, drugs sell themselves. Very few dealers have to put their stash on special because they can’t move it.

236 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:03:01pm

re: #235 sizzleRI

It’s so easy to obtain in Portland dealers complain about how difficult it is to make money, hahah

That remind me of the Chris Rock joke that drug dealers don’t sell drugs, drugs sell themselves. Very few dealers have to put their stash on special because they can’t move it.

I’ll never get tired of watching people try to deny the base nature of people to change their consciousness. It’s like a big lie that everyone has agreed to just parrot, a stunt fueled by the fears of suburban parents that their poor poor children will be ruined by drugs (protip: parent your kids, everyone I knew in high school who did a bunch of drugs were not from good homes)

237 Soap_Man  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:03:09pm

re: #227 sizzleRI

I don’t see that. Marijuana in the United States is ubiquitous. It is not difficult to obtain. At all. It was easier to obtain before I turned 21 than buying alcohol.That to me really says everything.

I have friends who smoke and friends who do not. The ones who choose not to do not do so because it is illegal. They don’t smoke because they don’t like it. Like cigarettes or alcohol.

Hypothetically, you could grab 50 high school kids at random, all social classes and types (rich, poor, academics, athletes, goths, punks, etc.), and give them each $25. Then tell them they have a few hours to get $25 in alcohol or $25 in pot, either one, and they win some kind of prize or something. If they fail, they lose.

I can promise at least 40, if not 45 or more, would come back with the pot.

238 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:04:04pm

re: #230 WindUpBird

You are young enough to not have experience where pot is (was) a serious felony. Lots of people declined. Just as I never, ever did certain drugs out of the fear of the punishment.

239 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:04:52pm

re: #233 lostlakehiker

Geez Louise. Classical economics indicates that when the price rises, (and interdiction efforts drive up the price), demand falls. So LESS is consumed.

It actually depends on the elasticity of the market. And remember that the drug trade has a long chain, from the original farmer to the street dealer. The price might rice for the dealer to buy from his supplier, without him raising it for the people on the street.

More may be put into the pipeline, but less reaches the other end.

No, this is historically not true, according to the DEA. They have never claimed that increased interdiction has actually led to less drugs getting through, to my knowledge.


In Singapore, their interdiction efforts are very successful and consumption is very low. Efforts to supply the Singapore market are sporadic, because everyone caught bringing in merchant-scale batches of hard drugs is executed.

Singapore is a city, on an island. And yeah, the death penalty for it changes things— but that’s moot, since we’re not going to enact the death penalty.


China was right to rise up in rebellion against the British forcing China to legalize the sale and consumption of opium. The scale of drug use that naturally results from legalization is very damaging to society. The Chinese were right to view the evils of war as the lesser evil.

Care to support your argument?

240 Semper Fi  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:05:54pm

re: #97 Rightwingconspirator

Well Caltrans spends 3.7 million per mile of sound wall, to protect residences from the freeway noise and pollution. What’s the big deal anyway?

Hi lizards.
RWC, I heard what you said and when I saw the two girls get to the top of the wall so easily I just sighed and shook my head. The people who designed and approved the wall were fully aware of its purpose yet this obviously half-hearted effort was approved and built. Regardless of which camp anyone is in (yes or no to the wall) it sure seems we should have gotten more for our money. Bottom line: Caltrans builds better walls.

241 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:06:35pm

re: #234 Gus 802

Eh, if you bake it into stuff or use a vaporizer, marijuana really is literally harmless. There are even strains that actually improve memory. Smoking anything is bad, because you’re inhaling smoke.

242 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:06:51pm

re: #237 Soap_Man

What cracks me up (pun intended) is how cocaine of course has to be smuggled. No way to make it here. But pot is a freaking weed. Grow houses are all over the place.

Yet it’s worth risking life and limb to smuggle it?! Not too bright are they?

243 Soap_Man  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:10:20pm

re: #242 Rightwingconspirator

What cracks me up (pun intended) is how cocaine of course has to be smuggled. No way to make it here. But pot is a freaking weed. Grow houses are all over the place.

Yet it’s worth risking life and limb to smuggle it?! Not too bright are they?

It might be easier to smuggle, actually. You need a lot of land to grow enough to get a good enough crop to make that kind of money. Seems like it would be much easier to be caught growing in large fields here in the states.

244 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:11:11pm

re: #243 Soap_Man

It might be easier to smuggle, actually. You need a lot of land to grow enough to get a good enough crop to make that kind of money. Seems like it would be much easier to be caught growing in large fields here in the states.

People often use public land. Now and then, they get caught doing so.

245 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:12:09pm

Erik Erikson has plans for the Tea Party to take over the GOP:

redstate.com

246 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:14:16pm

re: #241 Obdicut

Eh, if you bake it into stuff or use a vaporizer, marijuana really is literally harmless. There are even strains that actually improve memory. Smoking anything is bad, because you’re inhaling smoke.

I smoke cigarettes and drink the booze. Used to smoke pot occasionally. Frankly they’re all harmful and the ideal state is to not smoke tobacco or pot nor drink. I support full legalization of pot but I don’t buy into the notion that it is completely harmless nor do I think it’s a good idea to treat marijuana use as an activity not worthy of criticism. Frankly, I think it’s way overrated.

247 Kragar  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:14:20pm

re: #245 Obdicut

Erik Erikson has plans for the Tea Party to take over the GOP:

[Link: www.redstate.com…]

What a dipshit.

248 Mardukhai  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:14:26pm

Welcome back, Charles…

249 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:15:07pm

Oh brother.

250 sizzleRI  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:16:57pm

re: #236 WindUpBird

I’ll never get tired of watching people try to deny the base nature of people to change their consciousness. It’s like a big lie that everyone has agreed to just parrot, a stunt fueled by the fears of suburban parents that their poor poor children will be ruined by drugs (protip: parent your kids, everyone I knew in high school who did a bunch of drugs were not from good homes)

Heh. My mom always says prohibitionists miss the point. People use drugs because they like how it feels. Period. Sometimes they are self medicating, but it is still to feel something, better.

I’ll be honest, this debate is so funny to me because my dad has smoked pot more recently than I have. And he is not some aging hippy, just an attorney who volunteered to help some co-workers move and they pulled out a joint to thank him. He would have preferred beer but hey, why not. I indulge occasionally, but prefer beer. Sometimes pot makes me too anxious or I have the chance to smoke at like 3 in the afternoon and pass because I would like to actually accomplish something before 10pm. Quite honestly my life would not be radically altered if it disappeared.

My personal relationship with the plant aside, it is entrenched. It is mildly fun and mildly harmful in moderation. I cannot believe it is still a drug people get excited about either way.

251 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:17:46pm

re: #246 Gus 802

I don’t spend any time criticizing the behavior of others that doesn’t affect me. Marijuana use is one of those. So is alcohol, as long as the person isn’t driving.

Marijuana is actively medicinal and beneficial for quite a wide variety of people. From those with glaucoma to some classes of migraine sufferers to a lot of people with nausea disorders (mostly from drugs/chemo), it’s really very very good.

If we’re talking about ‘harmful’ substances, then Killgore is right; the processed crap most people eat is harmful to them. So is living in cities where you breathe polluted air.

In the end, these fleshy bodies are vulnerable. There’s no way to make this world totally safe for them. I don’t care if people want to get drunk, high, and fat along the way. It’s a cultural problem to me if we have too much of that behavior, not a legal one.

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:17:56pm

OK, this intrigues me. Reading the responses at Hot Air, about Sarah and the DADT retweet, I find:

What’s Huckabee’s military expertise?
alwaysfiredup on January 4, 2011 at 5:15 PM

He used to be close, personal friends with Col. Sanders; that is, before throwing him under the giant nanny-stater bus.
steebo77 on January 4, 2011 at 5:23 PM

Am I to understand that steebo77 thinks that GOING ON A DIET is the action of a ‘nanny-stater’? Or is there some other evil lurking in Huckabee’s past I don’t know about?

253 Soap_Man  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:20:17pm

re: #250 sizzleRI

Heh. My mom always says prohibitionists miss the point. People use drugs because they like how it feels. Period. Sometimes they are self medicating, but it is still to feel something, better.

I’ll be honest, this debate is so funny to me because my dad has smoked pot more recently than I have. And he is not some aging hippy, just an attorney who volunteered to help some co-workers move and they pulled out a joint to thank him. He would have preferred beer but hey, why not. I indulge occasionally, but prefer beer. Sometimes pot makes me too anxious or I have the chance to smoke at like 3 in the afternoon and pass because I would like to actually accomplish something before 10pm. Quite honestly my life would not be radically altered if it disappeared.

My personal relationship with the plant aside, it is entrenched. It is mildly fun and mildly harmful in moderation. I cannot believe it is still a drug people get excited about either way.

I think South Park nailed it on the head. The biggest danger from pot is that it makes you comfortable being bored.

I smoked in high school and beyond. No motivation to do anything, study, learn a new skill, etc. Went to community college part time after HS, mostly because of the lack of motivation to go a university.

Then I turned 19. Then 20. Then 21. Then 22. And then I work up one morning and realized I hadn’t accomplished anything in at least four years.

254 blueraven  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:21:09pm

re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, this intrigues me. Reading the responses at Hot Air, about Sarah and the DADT retweet, I find:

What’s Huckabee’s military expertise?
alwaysfiredup on January 4, 2011 at 5:15 PM

He used to be close, personal friends with Col. Sanders; that is, before throwing him under the giant nanny-stater bus.
steebo77 on January 4, 2011 at 5:23 PM

Am I to understand that steebo77 thinks that GOING ON A DIET is the action of a ‘nanny-stater’? Or is there some other evil lurking in Huckabee’s past I don’t know about?

I think they are pissed because Huckabee defended Michelle Obama’s school lunch proposal.

255 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:21:23pm

re: #253 Soap_Man

I think South Park nailed it on the head. The biggest danger from pot is that it makes you comfortable being bored.

I smoked in high school and beyond. No motivation to do anything, study, learn a new skill, etc. Went to community college part time after HS, mostly because of the lack of motivation to go a university.

Then I turned 19. Then 20. Then 21. Then 22. And then I work up one morning and realized I hadn’t accomplished anything in at least four years.

Funny, it’s PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE FOR ME

I didn’t start until my 30’s, and it’s sort of become a thing that helps the art productivity groove quite nicely

256 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:21:30pm

re: #254 blueraven

I think they are pissed because Huckabee defended Michelle Obama’s school lunch proposal.

Ah. That might explain it.

257 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:21:52pm

re: #253 Soap_Man

Heh. It has the opposite effect for me. I’m really, really productive when high.

I haven’t been in quite awhile, but it made these fourteen-hour working days flow a lot better.

Brain chemistry: it’s a crapshoot.

258 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:23:09pm

re: #257 Obdicut

Heh. It has the opposite effect for me. I’m really, really productive when high.

I haven’t been in quite awhile, but it made these fourteen-hour working days flow a lot better.

Brain chemistry: it’s a crapshoot.

I know these terrifying code wizards who only code stoned. WILD

259 Soap_Man  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:23:15pm

re: #255 WindUpBird

Funny, it’s PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE FOR ME

I didn’t start until my 30’s, and it’s sort of become a thing that helps the art productivity groove quite nicely

If I started smoking again now (in my late 20s) it probably wouldn’t be an issue. I’m a college grad, settled into a career, and just generally more responsible.

But the late-teen/early-20s version of me didn’t handle it so well.

260 Interesting Times  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:23:15pm

re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist

Am I to understand that steebo77 thinks that GOING ON A DIET is the action of a ‘nanny-stater’?

Diet? Pffft. Real AmericansTM eat these slathered in a thick creamy coat of this.

261 Kid A  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:23:46pm

re: #247 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yeah, I posted that link on a couple other threads. Let’s just say that I think the GOP is going to be in for a BIG surprise this year. As usual, the incoming party in power will overestimate their newfound agenda, go through uncontrollable bouts of premature ejaculation, then wonder WTF when Obama’s approval ratings hit 50%+ at the end of the year, and then Obama goes Reagan v Mondale 1984 in 2012, and kicks his opponent’s (Palin, pretty please???!!!) ass.

Have fun Baggers! You have no idea what you tools are in for.

262 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:23:54pm

re: #257 Obdicut

Heh. It has the opposite effect for me. I’m really, really productive when high.

I haven’t been in quite awhile, but it made these fourteen-hour working days flow a lot better.

.

Also, you too, huh? *_* I think I going to marry this studio chair, I’m always sitting in it

263 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:24:13pm

re: #257 Obdicut

Heh. It has the opposite effect for me. I’m really, really productive when high.

I haven’t been in quite awhile, but it made these fourteen-hour working days flow a lot better.

Brain chemistry: it’s a crapshoot.

I used to like it for playing guitar (jamming out that is) and sometimes I’d look back at some art/graphics works I’ve done and think “wow that’s really cool man, I did that?” I know that probably sounds kind of funny.

264 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:24:32pm

re: #185 Obdicut

The DEA estimates they interdict about 5-10% of the drugs entering the US. That number has never really varied that much in the entirety of the ‘drug war’, because when you exert pressure, you increase the profits of the gangs moving the product. It’s economics.

Interdiction will never remove drugs from our streets. Ever.

Interdiction reduces consumption. It’s elementary economics. Interdiction also cuts into the profits from the drug trade. How that shakes out between the smugglers and the growers is not our problem, but somebody loses revenue. That, too, is elementary economics.

It’s the same logic as with tariffs. Tariffs reduce consumption of the taxed items, and raise prices at the consumer end while cutting into the price the seller receives for the item.

Think of interdiction as a heavy tariff. You’re on record in this blog as claiming that tariffs dramatically drive up prices of the goods they’re levied on.

Our tariffs on French chocolates don’t zero out consumption of French chocolate. Some gets through anyhow. Perfection is not the goal. Reduction is the goal. Like a blockade, interdiction can make a difference even if it’s leaky.

265 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:25:01pm

But I hate it for operating machinery and going to the mall.

//

266 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:25:04pm

re: #258 WindUpBird

I know these terrifying code wizards who only code stoned. WILD

The spice must flow.

267 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:25:11pm

re: #259 Soap_Man

If I started smoking again now (in my late 20s) it probably wouldn’t be an issue. I’m a college grad, settled into a career, and just generally more responsible.

But the late-teen/early-20s version of me didn’t handle it so well.

To be sure, I probably would have rejected it entirely as a kid, because I was a very anxious teenager :P I can totally see why teens shouldn’t smoke.

268 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:25:29pm

re: #263 Gus 802

I used to like it for playing guitar (jamming out that is) and sometimes I’d look back at some art/graphics works I’ve done and think “wow that’s really cool man, I did that?” I know that probably sounds kind of funny.

This entirely :D

269 sizzleRI  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:25:57pm

re: #255 WindUpBird

Funny, it’s PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE FOR ME

I didn’t start until my 30’s, and it’s sort of become a thing that helps the art productivity groove quite nicely

And you Sir are the pot smoker I am most in awe of. I know a few like you, who can actually like do things while high. Mostly artist and musician folk. My best friend’s boyfriend gets high and follows his stock holdings.

I watch horrible TV and appreciate movies that suck when I’m not high. Sometimes I read and then have to reread it all in the morning. I do that drunk sometimes too. Odd habit.

270 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:26:05pm

re: #262 WindUpBird

Well, I don’t control the schedules for the things I work on— or rather, I do my best to accommodate my client(s). And since I have one major client, their schedules tend to align because of bottlenecks on their end. So I’ll have a month of very light work followed by a month of long, long days. It’s not bad. I’m a workaholic, so I enjoy the heavy work and just find something else to hyperwork on (like minecraft) when work is light.

And I just got a couple new contracts. Being a small business owner = highly nerve-wracking, but so far it’s working out.

271 Soap_Man  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:27:32pm

re: #267 WindUpBird

To be sure, I probably would have rejected it entirely as a kid, because I was a very anxious teenager :P I can totally see why teens shouldn’t smoke.

Hence, why I support legalization. Makes it harder for teens to get (who shouldn’t be smoking) and easier for adults (who should be able to if they want)

272 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:27:39pm

re: #263 Gus 802

I used to like it for playing guitar (jamming out that is) and sometimes I’d look back at some art/graphics works I’ve done and think “wow that’s really cool man, I did that?” I know that probably sounds kind of funny.

it tends to narrow visual focus for me when i work? Hard to describe, but it makes me much better at hyperfocusing on details, slowing down lines so I don’t rush, and losing a bit of that “inner voice” that shoots down some of my flights of fancy. And then the art becomes better, or at least stranger and more colorful and more distinctive.

273 sizzleRI  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:27:39pm

re: #264 lostlakehiker

But it hasn’t happened. Adjusted for inflation the average price of cocaine has remained constant since the drug war began.

274 sizzleRI  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:28:09pm

re: #257 Obdicut

Heh. It has the opposite effect for me. I’m really, really productive when high.

I haven’t been in quite awhile, but it made these fourteen-hour working days flow a lot better.

Brain chemistry: it’s a crapshoot.

Freaks. All of you.

275 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:28:35pm

re: #269 sizzleRI

And you Sir are the pot smoker I am most in awe of. I know a few like you, who can actually like do things while high. Mostly artist and musician folk. My best friend’s boyfriend gets high and follows his stock holdings.

I watch horrible TV and appreciate movies that suck when I’m not high. Sometimes I read and then have to reread it all in the morning. I do that drunk sometimes too. Odd habit.

The careful thing is, i can’t be TOO high. A little goes a long way. *_* Too much and I just start listening to psychedelic metal and then I get nothing done :D

276 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:28:57pm

re: #274 sizzleRI

Freaks. All of you.

‘Ere!

277 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:29:10pm

re: #271 Soap_Man

Hence, why I support legalization. Makes it harder for teens to get (who shouldn’t be smoking) and easier for adults (who should be able to if they want)

I agree

I always believe that teens should have to really WORK to get away with stuff :D

278 sizzleRI  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:29:44pm

re: #271 Soap_Man

Hence, why I support legalization. Makes it harder for teens to get (who shouldn’t be smoking) and easier for adults (who should be able to if they want)

And half the fun as a teen was that it was wrong. We smoked the shwaggiest stuff and thought we were just the coolest.

279 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:30:33pm

re: #270 Obdicut

Well, I don’t control the schedules for the things I work on— or rather, I do my best to accommodate my client(s). And since I have one major client, their schedules tend to align because of bottlenecks on their end. So I’ll have a month of very light work followed by a month of long, long days. It’s not bad. I’m a workaholic, so I enjoy the heavy work and just find something else to hyperwork on (like minecraft) when work is light.

And I just got a couple new contracts. Being a small business owner = highly nerve-wracking, but so far it’s working out.

When I do game gigs, I would have this, but sorta more staccato. A weak of waiting, a week of constant work, a week of waiting :P

And yeha, doing it all yourself and being your own boss is WEIRD. I have to remind myself to get up and make sense, go outside, etc.

280 BishopX  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:30:35pm

re: #264 lostlakehiker

Most drug demand is price insensitive, especially when your dealing with highly addictive substances (like cocaine and heroin). If you need a fix, you’re willing to pay out the nose for it.

281 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:31:10pm

re: #273 sizzleRI

But it hasn’t happened. Adjusted for inflation the average price of cocaine has remained constant since the drug war began.

It’s an arms race between interdiction and the technology of production and smuggling. Interdiction makes the price higher than it would otherwise be, all else held equal.

In practice, if the French can make chocolates cheaper and better, tariffs notwithstanding, consumption of French chocolate might also rise.

In Singapore, the price of cocaine is your life, which is high enough to dramatically cut consumption. It’s not like impossible to affect consumption through government action.

282 sizzleRI  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:32:09pm

re: #281 lostlakehiker

It’s an arms race between interdiction and the technology of production and smuggling. Interdiction makes the price higher than it would otherwise be, all else held equal.

In practice, if the French can make chocolates cheaper and better, tariffs notwithstanding, consumption of French chocolate might also rise.

In Singapore, the price of cocaine is your life, which is high enough to dramatically cut consumption. It’s not like impossible to affect consumption through government action.

Not impossible, no. Thats why totalitarian states have low crime rates. But at what price? I think Singapore’s is too high. Do you?

283 blueraven  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:34:41pm

re: #263 Gus 802

I used to like it for playing guitar (jamming out that is) and sometimes I’d look back at some art/graphics works I’ve done and think “wow that’s really cool man, I did that?” I know that probably sounds kind of funny.

Not at all…same here. Especially playing guitar.
Also got my housework done with much more ease and fun!

284 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:34:58pm

re: #280 BishopX

Most drug demand is price insensitive, especially when your dealing with highly addictive substances (like cocaine and heroin). If you need a fix, you’re willing to pay out the nose for it.

Willing is one thing. Able is another. Cocaine and heroin are so destructive that it is essential it not be cheap and widely available. They must be illegal, and enforcement must be strict.

285 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:35:06pm

Huh what moment…

@HeyTammyBruce Tammy Bruce

by SarahPalinUSA
But this hypocrisy is just truly too much. Enuf already—the more someone complains about the homos the more we should look under their bed
4 hours ago via web Favorite Retweet Reply
Retweeted by SarahPalinUSA and 100 others
286 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:35:35pm

re: #264 lostlakehiker

Interdiction reduces consumption. It’s elementary economics.

Not really, as I previously explained. Let me go into more detail so you can get it.

Interdiction might cause the following effects:

1. More drugs are put into the pipeline to replace those that are interdicted. Prices don’t change— profit margins are already sky-high. Some people lose all profit, of course, since they’re busted.

2. More drugs are put into the pipeline to replace those that are interdicted. Prices go up between the initial supplier and the in-country distributor.

3. More drugs are put into the pipeline to replace those that are interdicted. Prices go up between the initial supplier and the in-country distributor. The in-country distributor raises prices for the street dealers.

4. More drugs are put into the pipeline to replace those that are interdicted. Prices go up all along the chain, including for the customer. A small decrease in the consumption of drugs occurs, perhaps— if the elasticity of the market has truly already been reached.


If you think that drugs aren’t put back into the pipeline to meet the need, you’ll have to explain why you think so. Markets in need of supply tend to get supplied.

How that shakes out between the smugglers and the growers is not our problem, but somebody loses revenue. That, too, is elementary economics.

It is our problem, actually. It is unlikely we’ll actually damage the revenue of the supplier, who is the Big Bad who is a causative agent.

Think of interdiction as a heavy tariff. You’re on record in this blog as claiming that tariffs dramatically drive up prices of the goods they’re levied on.

No I’m not. I think you’re misremembering the conversation where you tried to claim that there weren’t tariffs on things that poor people bought, and I showed you were mistaken. I’m generally the guy pointing out that the price of a good is set by what the market will bear, and not by the production costs.

Our tariffs on French chocolates don’t zero out consumption of French chocolate. Some gets through anyhow. Perfection is not the goal. Reduction is the goal. Like a blockade, interdiction can make a difference even if it’s leaky.

Interdiction makes a tiny, tiny difference on consumption. Even full prohibition of alcohol made only a 10-20% change in consumption.

economics.harvard.edu

And there is a lot of reason to believe that was cultural, and not due to actual prohibition.

287 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:36:45pm

re: #282 sizzleRI

Not impossible, no. Thats why totalitarian states have low crime rates. But at what price? I think Singapore’s is too high. Do you?

For cocaine, the price is too high by me. We do need to have it be illegal, and penalties have to be serious, but the death penalty is overdoing it.

For heroin, it’s just right. Singapore is not a totalitarian state. The people have a say in their government. If they want to say that heroin is illegal, and mean it, good for them.

288 Gus  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:37:16pm

re: #285 Gus 802

Huh what moment…

@HeyTammyBruce Tammy Bruce

Bryan Fischer must have a very huge bed.

//

289 Soap_Man  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:39:17pm

re: #287 lostlakehiker

For cocaine, the price is too high by me. We do need to have it be illegal, and penalties have to be serious, but the death penalty is overdoing it.

For heroin, it’s just right. Singapore is not a totalitarian state. The people have a say in their government. If they want to say that heroin is illegal, and mean it, good for them.

There’s an old saying, “The only people addicted to cocaine are those who can afford to be addicted to cocaine.” Not completely true, but most often is the case…

290 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:41:08pm

re: #282 sizzleRI

Not impossible, no. Thats why totalitarian states have low crime rates. But at what price? I think Singapore’s is too high. Do you?

Yeah, preventing drugs from getting into this crazy-ass country, it’s like trying to give CPR to a corpse :D America’s problems are far far larger than drugs, drug use is a symptom and it won’t go away

291 sizzleRI  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:42:47pm

re: #287 lostlakehiker

For cocaine, the price is too high by me. We do need to have it be illegal, and penalties have to be serious, but the death penalty is overdoing it.

For heroin, it’s just right. Singapore is not a totalitarian state. The people have a say in their government. If they want to say that heroin is illegal, and mean it, good for them.

Ok, thats where you stand. I am pretty far from that view but if I squint I can almost make it out.

292 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:43:18pm

re: #286 Obdicut

Not really, as I previously explained. Let me go into more detail so you can get it.

Interdiction might cause the following effects:

1. More drugs are put into the pipeline to replace those that are interdicted. Prices don’t change— profit margins are already sky-high. Some people lose all profit, of course, since they’re busted.

2. More drugs are put into the pipeline to replace those that are interdicted. Prices go up between the initial supplier and the in-country distributor.

3. More drugs are put into the pipeline to replace those that are interdicted. Prices go up between the initial supplier and the in-country distributor. The in-country distributor raises prices for the street dealers.

4. More drugs are put into the pipeline to replace those that are interdicted. Prices go up all along the chain, including for the customer. A small decrease in the consumption of drugs occurs, perhaps— if the elasticity of the market has truly already been reached.

If you think that drugs aren’t put back into the pipeline to meet the need, you’ll have to explain why you think so. Markets in need of supply tend to get supplied.

It is our problem, actually. It is unlikely we’ll actually damage the revenue of the supplier, who is the Big Bad who is a causative agent.

No I’m not. I think you’re misremembering the conversation where you tried to claim that there weren’t tariffs on things that poor people bought, and I showed you were mistaken. I’m generally the guy pointing out that the price of a good is set by what the market will bear, and not by the production costs.

Interdiction makes a tiny, tiny difference on consumption. Even full prohibition of alcohol made only a 10-20% change in consumption.

[Link: www.economics.harvard.edu…]

And there is a lot of reason to believe that was cultural, and not due to actual prohibition.

You’re wrong about the price of a good being set by what the market will bear, and not by production costs. Whatever the production cost, there will be a market price. The higher the production cost, the higher the market clearing price at which demand curve crosses supply curve.

Production cost, you must bear in mind, is not a fixed number. It’s cheaper per bushel to raise N bushels of corn on an acre than to raise 2N. “Production cost” is a curve describing the amount that the producer must spend to produce thus and so amount. Here, it’s not “produced” until it reaches its market. The cost of delivery to the consumer is part of the production cost.

If your costs go up, and everybody else also sees the same increase in costs, you and your compeers will raise your prices, produce* less, sell less, make less, and everybody’s worse off. This works the same whatever the commodity. Even illegal drugs.

*keeping in mind that it’s not “produced” until it changes hands at the corner. Production in Colombia is just one leg of “production”.

293 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:45:05pm

re: #292 lostlakehiker

You’re wrong about the price of a good being set by what the market will bear, and not by production costs. Whatever the production cost, there will be a market price. The higher the production cost, the higher the market clearing price at which demand curve crosses supply curve.

Production cost, you must bear in mind, is not a fixed number. It’s cheaper per bushel to raise N bushels of corn on an acre than to raise 2N. “Production cost” is a curve describing the amount that the producer must spend to produce thus and so amount. Here, it’s not “produced” until it reaches its market. The cost of delivery to the consumer is part of the production cost.

If your costs go up, and everybody else also sees the same increase in costs, you and your compeers will raise your prices, produce* less, sell less, make less, and everybody’s worse off. This works the same whatever the commodity. Even illegal drugs.

*keeping in mind that it’s not “produced” until it changes hands at the corner. Production in Colombia is just one leg of “production”.

Artist here! My production costs are negligible. My prices are set by the market. And my prices keep going up, because the market lets me charge more ;-)

294 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:46:10pm

re: #289 Soap_Man

There’s an old saying, “The only people addicted to cocaine are those who can afford to be addicted to cocaine.” Not completely true, but most often is the case…

yeah, let’s just say I’m not worried about the scourge of cocaine. I’m also not afraid of a traffic jam of Bentleys in front of me LOL.

295 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:50:10pm

re: #292 lostlakehiker

You’re wrong about the price of a good being set by what the market will bear, and not by production costs.

It depends, as I said, on the elasticity of the market. But in general, yes, it’s what the market will bear. Why do you believe otherwise?

The higher the production cost, the higher the market clearing price at which demand curve crosses supply curve.

There isn’t a single demand curve. There are multiple curves depending on the price. The optimal curve describes the price that leads to the highest combination of units sold and profit per unit. That’s what the market will bear.

If your costs go up, and everybody else also sees the same increase in costs, you and your compeers will raise your prices, produce* less, sell less, make less, and everybody’s worse off. This works the same whatever the commodity. Even illegal drugs.

I’m sorry, but you’re again ignoring that this is a chain of sales. Even if price were increased at one point, that doesn’t inevitably lead to increases elsewhere. In addition, you haven’t provided a reason yet why you believe that drugs won’t be put into the stream to replace those interdicted. Are you planning on giving that reason at any point?


*keeping in mind that it’s not “produced” until it changes hands at the corner. Production in Colombia is just one leg of “production”.

Yeah, that’s actually what I was reminding you of, when I cited the various scenarios where ‘price’ could get raised along the chain but never raise it for the end consumer. I’m not sure if you just missed that, or didn’t understand it, or what.

296 BishopX  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:52:40pm

re: #292 lostlakehiker

Most drugs have something like a 90% profit margin in a vertically integrated supply chain. Production costs really don’t change much. Also, keep in mind that there really isn’t much competition when it comes to drugs, most areas have a semi-monopoly, which prevents people from shopping around too much.

297 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:54:32pm

re: #296 BishopX

I really would like to find the guy who started the myth that every change in production cost affected the market price and whack him. It’s a really pernicious fallacy that effects thinking about markets and capitalism all over the place.

298 compound idaho  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 4:05:12pm

re: #293 WindUpBird

Artist here! My production costs are negligible. My prices are set by the market. And my prices keep going up, because the market lets me charge more ;-)

I usually (quietly) disagree with your comments, but on this one you are right on. The price is set by what the market will bear. If you can produce at a cost less than that, you have a business. You go! Get what you can for your talents. I also think oil companies should be able to charge what the market will bear for gasoline.

PS Too bad artists can command a higher price when they are dead :(

299 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 4:06:36pm

BTW, WUB, do you watch the new Dr. Who? And if so, have you seen the episodes with Van Gogh? I really liked those.

300 beartiger  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 4:35:50pm

re: #20 EmmmieG

I didn’t say anything about the consequences of slapping. I said that slapping someone doesn’t prove they’re not in charge, and I’m correct in that.

301 _remembertonyc  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 8:29:10pm

this gives new meaning to the term “spanking the monkey.”

302 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 4, 2011 11:40:31pm

re: #295 Obdicut

It depends, as I said, on the elasticity of the market. But in general, yes, it’s what the market will bear. Why do you believe otherwise?

There isn’t a single demand curve. There are multiple curves depending on the price. The optimal curve describes the price that leads to the highest combination of units sold and profit per unit. That’s what the market will bear.

I’m sorry, but you’re again ignoring that this is a chain of sales. Even if price were increased at one point, that doesn’t inevitably lead to increases elsewhere. In addition, you haven’t provided a reason yet why you believe that drugs won’t be put into the stream to replace those interdicted. Are you planning on giving that reason at any point?

Yeah, that’s actually what I was reminding you of, when I cited the various scenarios where ‘price’ could get raised along the chain but never raise it for the end consumer. I’m not sure if you just missed that, or didn’t understand it, or what.

You’ve had the reason again and again. You blithely ignore it, and ask for it as if it’d not been given.

Interdiction, like any difficulty in the chain of production, increases the cost of that chain. Somewhere, somehow, somebody has to work harder to create and deliver the product.

That extra work has to be paid for. The cost must increase for the buyer. When there is a freeze in Florida, the price of orange juice goes up. It’s altogether elementary, my dear Watson.

It is entirely legitimate to treat the whole chain of production as a black box. You put money in, and out comes product. If the black box requires more money to break even on the product, the price must go up.

In terms of supply curves and demand curves, the demand curve describes how much WOULD be bought at a given price if that price were offered. It’s a decreasing function of the price.

The supply curve describes how much WOULD be offered for sale at a given market price, if that was the price the market offered. It’s an increasing function. When the cost to the producer goes up, that curve is depressed. The intersection of the new, lower supply curve, with the original demand curve, moves to the right, toward a higher price at which demand and supply match.

303 leftynyc  Wed, Jan 5, 2011 4:39:30am

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

Walter - you have a real talent there. I’m actually sorry you’re not closer because I would love to see all your pictures of Paris. Bored of Paris? Never. I wish a splendid trip for you.

304 leftynyc  Wed, Jan 5, 2011 4:43:14am

re: #115 lawhawk

Now I have the start of my list for my next trip!! I do loving seeing Chagall and have only seen his stained glass windows at the Hadassah hospital in Israel (with the bullet holes). I will be seeing the giant murals at the Opera House on Friday for the new La Traviata.

305 beartiger  Wed, Jan 5, 2011 8:21:26am
That extra work has to be paid for. The cost must increase for the buyer.

This is manifestly false. When there is a cost, the price does not inevitably rise. There are several things that can obviate raising the price. A businessman who simply raised his prices every time he had a new and unexpected cost would quickly go out of business, and he would deserve to.

This does not mean, incidentally, that prices never rise in response to a businesses costs, but it’s an incredibly common myth that they must rise, especially incredible since it takes only a few seconds thought to imagine alternatives (which is why I haven’t bothered telling you what they are. You need to calm down and think about it) and no thought at all if you’ve ever had any experience in business.


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