I’d just like to say that I stand in solidarity with the workers and students of Wisconsin tonight, and against the right wing’s war on employee unions.
4 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:07:34pm |
| 5 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:07:39pm |
And I stand firmly in agreement with the governor of Wisconsin and wish him every success in his reform efforts.
/downding away
| 6 |
laZardo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:08:04pm |
Fuck conservatism. Stand up (virtually?) and show 'em what you're made of.
| 7 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:08:23pm |
re: #5 Dark_Falcon
And I stand firmly in agreement with the governor of Wisconsin and wish him every success in his reform efforts.
/downding away
so does freedom of an American end when you become part of a union?
I just want to be clear
| 8 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:08:28pm |
Clearly this place is now run by the insurgent Islamic atheist conspiracy...
| 9 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:09:32pm |
Hehe... the House tonight is sounding a bit like the UK Parliament...
| 10 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:09:51pm |
re: #5 Dark_Falcon
And I stand firmly in agreement with the governor of Wisconsin and wish him every success in his reform efforts.
/downding away
But why?
Do you still believe his claims of a deficit?
Do you still think that the unions are unwilling to meet and make consessions?
| 11 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:09:54pm |
re: #6 laZardo
Fuck conservatism. Stand up (virtually?) and show 'em what you're made of.
Imagine Americans exercising their rights to protest and to organize, in order to negotiate with their employer, would be demonized as thugs and compared to rioters
But that's the GOP these days!
| 12 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:10:24pm |
re: #9 freetoken
Hehe... the House tonight is sounding a bit like the UK Parliament...
Honestly, might as well, get the GOP know-nothing farce out into the open as opposed to hiding it
| 13 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:11:11pm |
re: #12 WindUpBird
The Committee of the Whole sure can grumble loudly...
| 14 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:11:55pm |
Thank you, Charles. As a union member, as is my wife (AFM), we appreciate the support. Unions created the middle class in this country. Now the last bastion is in public employees.
Shame.
| 15 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:12:08pm |
re: #7 WindUpBird
so does freedom of an American end when you become part of a union?
I just want to be clear
No. I've made clear on more than on occasion that I have no objection to collective bargaining by private sector unions. It is public sector unions that i object to. I believe they corrupt the political process and have dragged Wisconsin and Illinois into deep financial peril.
| 16 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:12:25pm |
Since the McIver Institute has been astroturfing during this union busting time here's some information on them and a repost of sorts:
Board Members | MacIver Institute
Board Chair Fred Luber is a Milwaukee industrialist and philanthropist who has long been involved in promoting innovative public policies.
...
Fred Luber is a former campaign staffer for Governor Scott Walker:
Doyle Extremely Vulnerable Walker Announces First Wave of Finance Committee
Fred Luber, Chairman of Super Steel Corp of Milwaukee and George Dalton, Chairman and CEO of NOVO 1 will serve as the Finance Committee Co-Chairs.
"Twenty years ago, I was honored to help elect a young, intelligent Republican by the name of Tommy Thompson," said Luber. I see a lot of Tommy in Scott Walker, and am happy to help organize support and help him get elected in 2006."
You're getting your information (i.e. news and data) from an outfit run by the former finance co-chair to the same governor in question, Scott Walker.
| 17 |
jaunte Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:12:27pm |
The Northwestern:
Truth be told, the bill is the beginning of an effort to roll back the right of workers. Its lesser-known provisions set a dangerous precedent for granting the executive branch broad emergency powers where an emergency does not exist. The speed in which the bill is heading from proposal to adoption is also of concern. It is slated for a vote Thursday, just six days after it was released to the public. The fact that a national special interest group, The Club for Growth, began broadcasting ads in support of the proposal at the same time the bill was released shows that this is not a homegrown effort to fix Wisconsin's problems, but an orchestrated, ideologically driven campaign.
[Link: www.thenorthwestern.com...]
| 18 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:12:27pm |
re: #11 WindUpBird
Imagine Americans exercising their rights to protest and to organize, in order to negotiate with their employer, would be demonized as thugs and compared to rioters
It's amazing.
These are working and middle class folks with their kids and they are called thugs.
How dare the worker stand up for their rights.
It is like we are living in the Gilded Age....
| 19 |
Four More Tears Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:12:32pm |
re: #5 Dark_Falcon
And I stand firmly in agreement with the governor of Wisconsin and wish him every success in his reform efforts.
/downding away
I still can't understand how someone who has very little trust in the government expects their employees to.
| 21 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:13:40pm |
re: #15 Dark_Falcon
No. I've made clear on more than on occasion that I have no objection to collective bargaining by private sector unions. It is public sector unions that i object to. I believe they corrupt the political process and have dragged Wisconsin and Illinois into deep financial peril.
So basically, only people who work for the government forfeit their rights?
Got it! America! Where you never know when your rights are being taken away, yee-haw GOP
| 22 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:14:21pm |
re: #15 Dark_Falcon
No. I've made clear on more than on occasion that I have no objection to collective bargaining by private sector unions. It is public sector unions that i object to. I believe they corrupt the political process and have dragged Wisconsin and Illinois into deep financial peril.
Walker is lying.
LYING.
| 23 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:14:42pm |
re: #15 Dark_Falcon
But how do they corrupt it any more than a private group does?
| 24 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:14:49pm |
re: #19 JasonA
I still can't understand how someone who has very little trust in the government expects their employees to.
hahahaha
well it's not really that, it's Republicans punishing people who work for the government. See, if you hate government and love the private sector, then the idea is to make government employment as inhospitable as possible. And thus, you get that handy starve-the-beast Grover Norquist brain-drain.
Easy!
| 25 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:15:02pm |
Collective bargaining not copacetic with public service but with private?
| 26 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:15:22pm |
The Green Bay Packers are supporting the labor unions too!
[Link: dekerivers.wordpress.com...]
Green Bay Packers Support Union Members, Oppose Governor Walker Union-Busting Bill
It is the same dedication of our public workers every day that makes Wisconsin run. They are the teachers, nurses and child care workers who take care of us and our families. But now in an unprecedented political attack, Gov. Walker is trying to take away their right to have a voice and bargain at work.
Looks like the right team won the Super Bowl and it looks like all unions, public and private, are getting pissed off. :)
| 27 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:15:35pm |
re: #15 Dark_Falcon
No. I've made clear on more than on occasion that I have no objection to collective bargaining by private sector unions. It is public sector unions that i object to. I believe they corrupt the political process and have dragged Wisconsin and Illinois into deep financial peril.
What has dragged Illinois and Wisconsin into peril is not collecting enough money to pay the debt.
Period. Full stop.
| 28 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:15:50pm |
re: #25 BigPapa
Collective bargaining not copacetic with public service but with private?
The mind reels from the tribalism, the face laughs
| 29 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:16:01pm |
I think tonight is a great night to hit the LGf donate button!
| 30 |
Stanghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:16:19pm |
re: #15 Dark_Falcon
No. I've made clear on more than on occasion that I have no objection to collective bargaining by private sector unions. It is public sector unions that i object to. I believe they corrupt the political process and have dragged Wisconsin and Illinois into deep financial peril.
You have read that this budget "crisis" was created by the new Gov?
Please D_F. Read up.
| 31 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:16:27pm |
re: #29 prairiefire
I think tonight is a great night to hit the LGf donate button!
I think you are right.
| 32 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:16:56pm |
re: #15 Dark_Falcon
No. I've made clear on more than on occasion that I have no objection to collective bargaining by private sector unions. It is public sector unions that i object to. I believe they corrupt the political process and have dragged Wisconsin and Illinois into deep financial peril.
Apparently, not enough financial peril to give rich people and corporations a tax cut. If the budget was in such terrible shape tax cuts to the wealthy shouldn't have been on the table.
| 33 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:17:09pm |
re: #26 moderatelyradicalliberal
The Green Bay Packers are supporting the labor unions too!
[Link: dekerivers.wordpress.com...]
Green Bay Packers Support Union Members, Oppose Governor Walker Union-Busting Bill
Looks like the right team won the Super Bowl and it looks like all unions, public and private, are getting pissed off. :)
Good for them!
And not surprisingly, Green Bay is the only team owned by its fans :D
The Packers are the only non-profit, community-owned major league professional sports team in the United States.
SOCIALIZZZZM
| 34 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:17:12pm |
Hehe... Franks AZ offered up an amendment to reduce ethanol subsidies... and a Republican from Iowa had to rise to argue against it.
| 35 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:17:19pm |
| 36 |
Four More Tears Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:17:22pm |
This bodes well for attracting quality employees to work in the state bureaucracy...
| 37 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:17:38pm |
re: #32 moderatelyradicalliberal
Apparently, not enough financial peril to give rich people and corporations a tax cut. If the budget was in such terrible shape tax cuts to the wealthy shouldn't have been on the table.
it's time to remove more power from teachers!
That's America!
| 38 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:17:41pm |
re: #26 moderatelyradicalliberal
The Green Bay Packers are supporting the labor unions too!
[Link: dekerivers.wordpress.com...]
Green Bay Packers Support Union Members, Oppose Governor Walker Union-Busting Bill
Looks like the right team won the Super Bowl and it looks like all unions, public and private, are getting pissed off. :)
Two updings for policy, one downding for poor choice of teams.
| 39 |
Stanghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:18:14pm |
re: #32 moderatelyradicalliberal
Apparently, not enough financial peril to give rich people and corporations a tax cut. If the budget was in such terrible shape tax cuts to the wealthy shouldn't have been on the table.
Truth.
Such a fucking disconnect.
| 40 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:18:34pm |
re: #29 prairiefire
I think tonight is a great night to hit the LGf donate button!
OK, but Charles owes us a hate-mail reading.
| 41 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:18:43pm |
re: #15 Dark_Falcon
No. I've made clear on more than on occasion that I have no objection to collective bargaining by private sector unions. It is public sector unions that i object to. I believe they corrupt the political process and have dragged Wisconsin and Illinois into deep financial peril.
No DF, we're not in peril and there is no reason to panic. Our situation is better than it was two years ago. Scooter is lying through his teeth. Please start here:
[Link: host.madison.com...]
| 42 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:19:08pm |
re: #39 Stanley Sea
Truth.
Such a fucking disconnect.
At least they're not taking the reaming lying down
| 44 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:19:57pm |
re: #36 JasonA
This bodes well for attracting quality employees to work in the state bureaucracy...
make government employment toxic to employees, they leave, the brain drain continues, easy peasy
So basically the GOP breaks stuff, then complains that it's broken, the usual schtick
| 45 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:20:06pm |
re: #32 moderatelyradicalliberal
Apparently, not enough financial peril to give rich people and corporations a tax cut. If the budget was in such terrible shape tax cuts to the wealthy shouldn't have been on the table.
Come now, you should know better than that. Republican tax cuts cost nothing, because that's letting people "keep" their money. It's only when Democrats pass tax cuts that they cost money. It's basic economics!
///
| 46 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:20:16pm |
re: #27 austin_blue
What has dragged Illinois and Wisconsin into peril is not collecting enough money to pay the debt.
Period. Full stop.
Horsecrap. After getting a tax increase in the lame duck session of the state legislature, Gov. Quinn of Illinois has now unveiled an even bigger budget for next year, full of massive borrowing. "Collecting enough money" ends up reading "Tax, Spend, Elect" to the Dems. I oppose that, intensely, as does my family.
| 48 |
blueraven Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:20:19pm |
re: #15 Dark_Falcon
No. I've made clear on more than on occasion that I have no objection to collective bargaining by private sector unions. It is public sector unions that i object to. I believe they corrupt the political process and have dragged Wisconsin and Illinois into deep financial peril.
Curious, do you support Citizens United?
| 49 |
rwmofo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:20:32pm |
Clearly the question you guys have is "What does rwmofo have to say?"
Thanks for asking.
Who's looking out for the children? Obviously not the left-wing unions who have declared war on the taxpayers of Wisconsin. This is selfishness cubed. What can I do for me? If you want something, but feel you should use the power of the government to force other people to pay for it, you're a liberal. If you care more about yourself than our children, join a union.
| 50 |
jaunte Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:20:41pm |
Bad law, rushed through. Republicans would rightfully object if a Democratic governor tried to grab power like this.
...under the new law which blazed through the Senate last Friday and was approved on an 18-14 party line vote, much of the rulemaking oversight power of the Legislature was ceded to the executive branch. Under the new law, Walker will have to sign off on a statement outlining the scope of the rule before an agency begins work. Once the draft rule is completed, it would go back to the governor for approval or rejection. Only if he approves it would the rule go on to the Legislature.Additionally, it would, for the first time, give the governor rulemaking control over agencies that he does not head — the state Justice Department and the Department of Education — both of which have independently elected agency heads, the state attorney general and the state school superintendent. The governor’s rule oversight would also be applied to the Government Accountability Board, which sometimes passes pesky rules that enforce ethics laws for officeholders, including the governor.
The ceding of power by the legislative branch of government is — in our view — a dramatic misstep.
[Link: www.journaltimes.com...]
| 51 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:20:57pm |
re: #49 rwmofo
oh look, a talking point, how nice
| 52 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:20:58pm |
re: #29 prairiefire
I think tonight is a great night to hit the LGf donate button!
I donated to ACTBLUE today. I'm not swimming in money so I gave $14 for the 14 Democratic state senators who are in IL, um shall we say..........
filibustering. ;)
| 53 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:21:10pm |
| 55 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:21:56pm |
re: #46 Dark_Falcon
Horsecrap. After getting a tax increase in the lame duck session of the state legislature, Gov. Quinn of Illinois has now unveiled an even bigger budget for next year, full of massive borrowing. "Collecting enough money" ends up reading "Tax, Spend, Elect" to the Dems. I oppose that, intensely, as does my family.
As opposed to "Cut Taxes, Run Deficits, Borrow" of the Repubs?
| 56 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:22:05pm |
re: #38 Decatur Deb
Two updings for policy, one downding for poor choice of teams.
LOL! I really didn't have a dog in the fight.
| 57 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:22:14pm |
| 58 |
Stanghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:22:29pm |
re: #49 rwmofo
Clearly the question you guys have is "What does rwmofo have to say?"
Thanks for asking.
Who's looking out for the children? Obviously not the left-wing unions who have declared war on the taxpayers of Wisconsin. This is selfishness cubed. What can I do for me? If you want something, but feel you should use the power of the government to force other people to pay for it, you're a liberal. If you care more about yourself than our children, join a union.
You are a selfish idiot.
Gah, today has really brought out the best of America eh?
| 59 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:22:34pm |
You know, any "message from the management" I have ever gotten in business is, to put it mildly "bad news". Not so on LGF. Thanks, Charles!
Keep on, Keeping on!
| 60 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:22:55pm |
re: #49 rwmofo
...If you care more about yourself than our children, join a union.
I'd love to see you say that to a union steel workers face.
Oh. BTW asshole. My mom was a member of IBEW.
| 61 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:23:04pm |
re: #46 Dark_Falcon
Why do you reference your family so often?
| 62 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:23:19pm |
re: #58 Stanley Sea
You are a selfish idiot.
Gah, today has really brought out the best of America eh?
Workers with rights make conservatives angry, I guess :D
| 63 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:23:44pm |
On topic... an amendment now being discussed is about doing away with requiring "PLA"s, essentially a union-busting move by an (R) from NH.
| 64 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:23:51pm |
You get hired into public service with a certain set of understandings. You aren't going to make as much money as people in the private are for doing the same kind of work. On the other hand, the State will pay for your retirement and healthcare when you leave.
Why stop with teachers? Why not change the rules after the fact for the military vets, hmmm? How do you think that would go over?
And really, at base, what is the difference? Is the group that teaches your kids less worthy than those that kill for you by proxy?
| 65 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:23:55pm |
re: #57 Dark_Falcon
Okay, again:
Why is a public union corruptive, but a private group, able to lobby for tax breaks, subsidies, etc, not corruptive?
| 66 |
Big Joe Ghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:23:56pm |
Firemen show solidarity in Capitol.
| 67 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:23:59pm |
re: #55 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
As opposed to "Cut Taxes, Run Deficits, Borrow" of the Repubs?
That's not the philosophy Gov. Walker ran under, nor was it the one Bill Brady ran under here. Brady did not win, but Walker did and is now putting real budget reform into practice.
| 68 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:24:30pm |
re: #49 rwmofo
Clearly the question you guys have is "What does rwmofo have to say?"
Thanks for asking.
Who's looking out for the children? Obviously not the left-wing unions who have declared war on the taxpayers of Wisconsin.
Left wing unions declared war on taxpayers of Wisconsin?
Antagonistic rhetoric hack FAIL. That's the stupidest fucking thing I've seen written on here in some time, worse than most trolls. Fucking pathetic.
| 69 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:24:34pm |
re: #67 Dark_Falcon
That's not the philosophy Gov. Walker ran under, nor was it the one Bill Brady ran under here. Brady did not win, but Walker did and is now putting real union busting
budget reforminto practice.
ftfw
| 70 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:25:08pm |
re: #68 BigPapa
Left wing unions declared war on taxpayers of Wisconsin?
Antagonistic rhetoric hack FAIL. That's the stupidest fucking thing I've seen written on here in some time, worse than most trolls. Fucking pathetic.
he always acts like this, we should all be used to it
| 71 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:25:22pm |
re: #46 Dark_Falcon
Horsecrap. After getting a tax increase in the lame duck session of the state legislature, Gov. Quinn of Illinois has now unveiled an even bigger budget for next year, full of massive borrowing. "Collecting enough money" ends up reading "Tax, Spend, Elect" to the Dems. I oppose that, intensely, as does my family.
OK, then. Don't tax, dump your obligations, and blame the poor. Well done!
| 72 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:25:39pm |
re: #61 Obdicut
Why do you reference your family so often?
Because my father and my family on his side are some of the people I go over political events and ideas with.
| 73 |
Four More Tears Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:26:22pm |
re: #72 Dark_Falcon
So shocked that you updinged rwmofo's comment...
| 74 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:26:33pm |
re: #72 Dark_Falcon
Because my father and my family on his side are some of the people I go over political events and ideas with.
Why do you feel they are authoritative? Or is it just clannishness?
I have different politics than my family. That's okay. We're different people.
| 75 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:26:36pm |
re: #65 Obdicut
Okay, again:
Why is a public union corruptive, but a private group, able to lobby for tax breaks, subsidies, etc, not corruptive?
Let me third that, I'm interested as well. Actually, this would be a fourth because I already asked.
| 76 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:26:43pm |
re: #72 Dark_Falcon
Because my father and my family on his side are some of the people I go over political events and ideas with.
Does it ever occur to you that that may be your problem right there?
I don't discuss politics with my family, no need for me to, I'm more well researched than they are
| 77 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:26:48pm |
re: #49 rwmofo
Clearly the question you guys have is "What does rwmofo have to say?"
Thanks for asking.
Who's looking out for the children? Obviously not the left-wing unions who have declared war on the taxpayers of Wisconsin. This is selfishness cubed. What can I do for me? If you want something, but feel you should use the power of the government to force other people to pay for it, you're a liberal. If you care more about yourself than our children, join a union.
sigh.
I guess teachers should be willing to just take it up the ass "for the children"?
Teach for min wage maybe.
Go without health care and retirement?
Have to worry if you have pissed the wrong parent (or board member) off and might lose your job for flunking Jimmy?
Would you be willing to get fucked by your boss "for the children"?
(I mean it is all for the children and God knows how dare the working and middle class make a living wage)
| 78 |
engineer cat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:26:54pm |
the conservative movement is well on its way to declaring every last american a socialist
| 79 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:27:16pm |
re: #65 Obdicut
Okay, again:
Why is a public union corruptive, but a private group, able to lobby for tax breaks, subsidies, etc, not corruptive?
SHUT UP! Because...THAT"S WHY!!!!!
/
| 81 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:27:51pm |
re: #78 engineer dog
the conservative movement is well on its way to declaring every last american a socialist
And then they'll start dining on each others' gamey buttocks, well fattened from years of sitting in the couch groove nodding sagely to Fox News anchors
| 82 |
laZardo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:28:02pm |
re: #78 engineer dog
I'm surprised that the rest of LGF's conservatives haven't flounced yet.
| 84 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:28:19pm |
re: #77 webevintage
Have to worry if you have pissed the wrong parent (or board member) off and might lose your job for flunking Jimmy?
This. I went to a private school for a year.
There was a guy there who had failed five classes, who was still in the school, despite a supposed policy of 'fail twice, expelled'. He was the son of a board member.
There was another brilliant dude there who had a problem with that particular guy, got into a fight with him once, and got expelled.
A teacher that stood up for him got fired.
Yay.
| 85 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:28:43pm |
re: #49 rwmofo
Clearly the question you guys have is "What does rwmofo have to say?"
Thanks for asking.
Who's looking out for the children? Obviously not the left-wing unions who have declared war on the taxpayers of Wisconsin. This is selfishness cubed. What can I do for me? If you want something, but feel you should use the power of the government to force other people to pay for it, you're a liberal. If you care more about yourself than our children, join a union.
How about this for the children? How many teachers, who are already under appreciated and underpaid, will leave Wisconsin to teach somewhere else if this crappy bill is made law? You might be able to replace the other workers with relative ease, but the teachers, not so much.
Oh, and if you want low taxes on corporations and the rich along with attacks on the social safety net, attacks on unions, attacks on minorities of all kinds, attacks on women's reproductive rights, senseless expensive wars, surpluses that become deficits, and a shitty economy after deregulating corporations, join the GOP.
| 86 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:29:08pm |
As a computer tech for a high school I'm pretty damn sure my mom is one of those Public Sector Union employees, so I'm damn glad for your sentiments Charles!
| 87 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:29:37pm |
re: #85 moderatelyradicalliberal
Arguing with rwmofo is like arguing with a plank, it's a waste of your time
| 88 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:29:49pm |
re: #76 WindUpBird
Does it ever occur to you that that may be your problem right there?
I don't discuss politics with my family, no need for me to, I'm more well researched than they are
In some areas (i.e. national politics) I'm better informed. But my father and his younger brother's are very well informed locally, as are a couple of my cousins (I have 17 first cousins on my father's side)
| 89 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:29:55pm |
re: #35 Dark_Falcon
Yes, he is. None of what Frum said in his article, not a single word of it, directly addresses the specific causes of the budget situation in WI. It's generalities, unrelated to the situation at hand.
In WI, the governor cut taxes (and therefore revenues), and now is saying he has been forced by circumstances beyond his control to cut pensions by to fix the hole in the budget that didn't exist before taxes were cut. The budget was 121 million in the black when the governor took office. It is now 137 million in the whole, entirely because of the tax cuts. The state budget office has confirmed this. This whole thing is bullshit. You have been fed lies, and you buy them, like a good Republican, every time.
There is an imbalance in the budget there, to be sure, but it wasn't caused by teachers' benefits. It was caused by republican policies.
| 90 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:30:23pm |
re: #86 jamesfirecat
As a computer tech for a high school I'm pretty damn sure my mom is one of those Public Sector Union employees, so I'm damn glad for your sentiments Charles!
All my evil liberal teachers, all members of evil unions!
BEWARE THE BLOODSUCKING TEACHERS! GET YER HANDS OFF MUH MONEY
| 91 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:30:32pm |
re: #82 laZardo
I'm surprised that the rest of LGF's conservatives haven't flounced yet.
For that, you can go soak your head.
| 92 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:31:05pm |
re: #88 Dark_Falcon
In some areas (i.e. national politics) I'm better informed. But my father and his younger brother's are very well informed locally, as are a couple of my cousins (I have 17 first cousins on my father's side)
I guess I just place a higher premium on keeping my own counsel
| 93 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:31:06pm |
re: #78 engineer dog
the conservative movement is well on its way to declaring every last american a socialist
And if they stay at it like this, they might someday be right.
| 94 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:31:07pm |
What happens when workers make less money?
They spend less money.
When they spend less money local businesses lay off workers.
Lay too many workers off who no longer have money to spend at local businesses (or wallworld) and those businesses go out of business.
But hey, that is cool as long as the wealthy and corporations get tax cuts and the guys on wall street can rape our country...we're gonna blame it all on the unions anyway when things go south.
| 95 |
laZardo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:31:12pm |
re: #91 Dark_Falcon
For that, you can go soak your head.
Well, it is almost "summer" here. See you on the stalkerblogs.
| 96 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:31:20pm |
re: #67 Dark_Falcon
That's not the philosophy Gov. Walker ran under, nor was it the one Bill Brady ran under here. Brady did not win, but Walker did and is now putting real budget reform into practice.
My ass. He comes into office and the first thing he and his buddies in the legislature do is hold a special session to pass an "economic development" fund, an HSA fund, and a "tax-shift plan," all to the tune of $140 million. The man ran on a platform of criticizing borrowing to cover budget gaps, then raids the bank the moment he's in office.
| 97 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:31:22pm |
re: #91 Dark_Falcon
I'd really like an answer to this question:
Why is a public union corruptive, but a private group, able to lobby for tax breaks, subsidies, etc, not corruptive?
| 98 |
Stanghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:31:55pm |
re: #68 BigPapa
Left wing unions declared war on taxpayers of Wisconsin?
Antagonistic rhetoric hack FAIL. That's the stupidest fucking thing I've seen written on here in some time, worse than most trolls. Fucking pathetic.
Kudos.
| 99 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:32:00pm |
re: #84 Obdicut
This. I went to a private school for a year.
There was a guy there who had failed five classes, who was still in the school, despite a supposed policy of 'fail twice, expelled'. He was the son of a board member.
There was another brilliant dude there who had a problem with that particular guy, got into a fight with him once, and got expelled.
A teacher that stood up for him got fired.
Yay.
I always thought of that kind of situation as "personal politics".
They happen & the suck, but they are real.
And YOU are better than they are, for recognizing them.
| 100 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:32:06pm |
Right wingers would rather vilify unions and the middle class before they would vilify the true creators of the financial meltdown which includes the Wall Street investment banks. And, being the suckers that they are as equally middle class and one week away from poverty, they march in lock step to their abject and mindless glorification of their plutocratic ideals.
| 101 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:32:09pm |
Why is a public union corruptive, but a private group, able to lobby for tax breaks, subsidies, etc, not corruptive?
bolded
| 102 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:32:14pm |
re: #95 laZardo
Well, it is almost "summer" here. See you on the stalkerblogs.
What the fuck, dude? DF is here, taking his lumps, making his argument, getting downdinged, and you're taunting him about it?
I disagree with DF strongly on this, I think he's massively wrong and shortsighted, but saying that he doesn't belong on LGF because of this view is fucking shitty.
| 103 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:32:19pm |
re: #49 rwmofo
Clearly the question you guys have is "What does rwmofo have to say?"
Thanks for asking.
Who's looking out for the children? Obviously not the left-wing unions who have declared war on the taxpayers of Wisconsin. This is selfishness cubed. What can I do for me? If you want something, but feel you should use the power of the government to force other people to pay for it, you're a liberal. If you care more about yourself than our children, join a union.
///And if you feel that people shouldn't have to live up on to the contracts that they sign, you're a conservative apparently....
| 104 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:32:27pm |
re: #90 WindUpBird
All my evil liberal teachers, all members of evil unions!
BEWARE THE BLOODSUCKING TEACHERS! GET YER HANDS OFF MUH MONEY
Oh, those glorious unions! Bravely protecting incompetent teachers from being fired, while foiling such dastardly right-wing plots like merit pay and accountability!
/dripping
| 105 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:32:59pm |
re: #62 WindUpBird
Workers with rights make conservatives angry, I guess :D
Of course they do. This is a part to the GOP becoming a Southern Party. Southern states are "right to work" states, because you know how great the South is about workers rights.
//
But seriously, the Neo-Confederates that took over the party have exported their "values" all over and now Northern and Midwestern states are in danger of becoming Mississippi and Alabama.
| 106 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:33:07pm |
re: #104 Dark_Falcon
Oh, those glorious unions! Bravely protecting incompetent teachers from being fired, while foiling such dastardly right-wing plots like merit pay and accountability!
/dripping
Classy. Real classy.
| 107 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:33:32pm |
re: #37 WindUpBird
it's time to remove more power from teachers!
That's America!
We are the chickenhawk Republicans. We want a smaller government that tortures people. We say we care about the troops but won't condemn others who may torture them in return! We hate the commie teachers who remind us we haven't always been this way. We jack off to military history but never, ever serve in one. We hate taxes but have no idea how they work. We worship at the altar of our fathers' hand me down mindset because we dare not form our own opinions. We are rudderless sociopaths being towed by the entrenched ignorance of previous generations.
| 108 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:33:33pm |
re: #104 Dark_Falcon
Also protecting gay teachers from being fired, or ones who teach evolution, or teachers who teach Mark Twain, or teachers who failed a popular kid, or teachers who try to make sports stars actually do their homework.
| 109 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:33:40pm |
Hehe... Hall of TX just offered an amendment to keep NOAA from starting up it's long desired National Climate Service. Hall doesn't want NOAA to do anything for "climate".
| 110 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:34:02pm |
re: #95 laZardo
Well, it is almost "summer" here. See you on the stalkerblogs.
Why do you think that?
I'm curious, and asking for your reasoning.
| 111 |
laZardo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:34:19pm |
re: #102 Obdicut
What the fuck, dude? DF is here, taking his lumps, making his argument, getting downdinged, and you're taunting him about it?
I disagree with DF strongly on this, I think he's massively wrong and shortsighted, but saying that he doesn't belong on LGF because of this view is fucking shitty.
It's only a matter of time...
| 112 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:34:20pm |
And according to these same right wing tools, read, shills, they will go on to agree with the Citizens United decision and agree that corporations, such as Koch Industries, are in fact people. So according to them, Koch Industries are more defined as a "personage" as opposed to public unions.
All hail the corporations! For if it was not for them we would have nothing. Prepare and await to hear the gospel of Free Market Jesus!
| 113 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:34:24pm |
Hall's not even asking for a reduction of funding. He just doesn't want a "National Climate Service."
| 114 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:34:33pm |
| 115 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:34:35pm |
re: #109 freetoken
Hehe... Hall of TX just offered an amendment to keep NOAA from starting up it's long desired National Climate Service. Hall doesn't want NOAA to do anything for "climate".
Ralph used to be a Dem. So did Perry.
| 116 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:34:38pm |
re: #76 WindUpBird
Does it ever occur to you that that may be your problem right there?
I don't discuss politics with my family, no need for me to, I'm more well researched than they are
Hey, I discuss political stuff with my family, they're an interesting flavor of liberalism alternative to me, since my brother feels that we need another Warren Court which won't happen till 2040 and I feel that change will come sooner than that due to the GOP's inhability to win presidential elections...
| 117 |
dragonfire1981 Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:34:43pm |
Gather round children, hear this tale we've got,o
About a state called Wisconsin and a bad guy named Scott
So we'll march day and night by the big cooling tower,
They have the plan but we have the Power.
| 118 |
Stanghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:34:44pm |
re: #89 Fozzie Bear
Yes, he is. None of what Frum said in his article, not a single word of it, directly addresses the specific causes of the budget situation in WI. It's generalities, unrelated to the situation at hand.
In WI, the governor cut taxes (and therefore revenues), and now is saying he has been forced by circumstances beyond his control to cut pensions by to fix the hole in the budget that didn't exist before taxes were cut. The budget was 121 million in the black when the governor took office. It is now 137 million in the whole, entirely because of the tax cuts. The state budget office has confirmed this. This whole thing is bullshit. You have been fed lies, and you buy them, like a good Republican, every time.
There is an imbalance in the budget there, to be sure, but it wasn't caused by teachers' benefits. It was caused by republican policies.
Just like during the Bush years, they are wearing blindfolds and blaming others.
| 119 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:34:57pm |
re: #83 freetoken
We're all
socialistsALINKSYS now.
FTFY.
The few conservatives that remain may not be conservative any more, as defined by Mainstream Nutter Conservatism.
I really don't know what I am but this aggressive move on collective bargaining is a major step backwards. I've long been riled up by unions or union members but the concept and purpose of a union is entirely valid. Some unions or members may be corrupt but unionization is not.
Throw the baby out with the bathwater.
| 120 |
rwmofo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:35:12pm |
Imagine a world in which we could have freedom of choice for where our children can go to school. But the media/Democrat Party and teachers unions are totally intolerant when this subject is brought up for discussion.
| 121 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:35:28pm |
The reality remains that war has been declared on the working class. This is not about the budget; it is only about destroying the only thing left to fight for the people, to even give a voice to the citizen, in the wake of Citizens United. It is about teaching our children that even if we do fail at stopping this theft of our freedom, we will continue to fight to make a better world for them.
We can, we must, save Wisconsin from Walker and his bosses.
That, rwmofo, is how we "think of the children".
Not by surrendering our liberty to the Billionaires Boys Club.
I have no doubt we will loose this battle ultimately. But not the war.
Once more, SOLIDARITY!
| 122 |
blueraven Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:35:30pm |
re: #57 Dark_Falcon
Yes, entirely.
So it is OK to have the political process corrupted...just a matter of who is doing it? Got it.
| 123 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:35:47pm |
re: #104 Dark_Falcon
Hang in here.
You have a right to express your opinion, and I think your opinions are adding to a lively debate.
| 124 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:36:07pm |
re: #104 Dark_Falcon
Oh, those glorious unions! Bravely protecting incompetent teachers from being fired, while foiling such dastardly right-wing plots like merit pay and accountability!
/dripping
hahaha merit pay! Yeah, that makes sense in a poor district full of latchkey kids! tell me another one there, I'll do a rimshot! you have not a clue as to what you're talking about, you are repeating talking points
I notice you never quite get this fired up about schools and the ebil unions whenever SFZ is around, could it be because she's a real life teacher who knows far more about how this works than you do?
For the record, my favorite teacher was A) liberal, B) lesbian, C) union, D) politicall active and E) smarter than just about everyone here, turned DOWN a private sector gig $200,000 a year gig coding cad software to teach high school.
That's a real liberal for you. Sorry you ain't met any of us.
| 125 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:36:23pm |
re: #120 rwmofo
Imagine a world in which we could have freedom of choice for where our children can go to school. But the media/Democrat Party and teachers unions are totally intolerant when this subject is brought up for discussion.
Umm... don't we already have that freedom?
It's called private schools....
| 126 |
Romantic Heretic Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:36:45pm |
re: #5 Dark_Falcon
And I stand firmly in agreement with the governor of Wisconsin and wish him every success in his reform efforts.
/downding away
Still against the Constitution then, eh? The right to freely assemble belongs only to those worthy of it?
| 127 |
Jadespring Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:36:51pm |
| 128 |
Ben G. Hazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:36:57pm |
re: #5 Dark_Falcon
And I stand firmly in agreement with the governor of Wisconsin and wish him every success in his reform efforts.
/downding away
I'm not going to give you the downding you asked for, Dark, but I do think you're backing the wrong horse on this one. Scott Walker is pulling some hinky shit with all of this; while I do support governors practicing fiscal responsibility, this ain't the way to go.
| 129 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:37:07pm |
re: #105 moderatelyradicalliberal
Of course they do. This is a part to the GOP becoming a Southern Party. Southern states are "right to work" states, because you know how great the South is about workers rights.
//
But seriously, the Neo-Confederates that took over the party have exported their "values" all over and now Northern and Midwestern states are in danger of becoming Mississippi and Alabama.
Two updings for historicity, one downding from Lower Alabama.
| 130 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:37:09pm |
re: #106 Fozzie Bear
Classy. Real classy.
it's all just talking points now
I'm not talking to Dark Falcon, I'm talking to a blog he read somewhere by proxy
| 131 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:37:14pm |
re: #125 jamesfirecat
Umm... don't we already have that freedom?
It's called private schools...
If you've got the money, honey.
| 132 |
Stanghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:37:23pm |
re: #102 Obdicut
What the fuck, dude? DF is here, taking his lumps, making his argument, getting downdinged, and you're taunting him about it?
I disagree with DF strongly on this, I think he's massively wrong and shortsighted, but saying that he doesn't belong on LGF because of this view is fucking shitty.
Truth. I cannot imagine being on the other side of this debate. D_F is holding his own. I want to change his mind, yes, but damn, he deserves huge props for sticking with his principals.
D_F THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS, CHANGE YOUR MIND!
| 133 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:37:40pm |
Surprise! The Koch billionaire dirt bags are behind much of the right wing moves in WI:[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
| 134 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:37:46pm |
re: #111 laZardo
It's only a matter of time...
Bullshit. I love DF. He doesn't attack either the other board members or the Host.
I just happen to disagree with him on this subject and look forward to an exchange of viewpoints. That's what this blog should be about, not your snide, acidic insinuations.
| 135 |
Querent Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:37:59pm |
LGF -- the bulwark of sanity against encroaching moral derpitude...
(and now, i've got a lot of catching up to do!)
| 136 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:38:00pm |
re: #129 Decatur Deb
Two updings for historicity, one downding from Lower Alabama.
I really wish southern Oregon was called "Lower Oregon" it sounds more like something from Lord of the Rings
even better, "UnderOregon"
| 137 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:38:05pm |
re: #131 Floral Giraffe
If you've got the money, honey.
You mean how many freedoms of choice you have in America is determined by how much material wealth you have?
I never would have guessed!
| 138 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:38:09pm |
| 139 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:38:21pm |
re: #132 Stanley Sea
No, think about what you are doing and STICK TO YOUR PRINCIPLES.
| 140 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:38:47pm |
Dark, how do you explain this?
The budget of the state of WI was 121 million in the black the day Walker took office. The budget of the state of WI is now 137 million in the red. The WI budget office has said that the entirety of the difference is due to the tax cuts signed by Walker since he took office.
These are all facts. This is a manufactured crisis.
SOLIDARITY
| 142 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:39:12pm |
re: #139 Floral Giraffe
No, think about what you are doing and STICK TO YOUR PRINCIPLES.
When you think about what you doing don't forget to think about principles and why you hold them so dear in the first place....
| 143 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:39:24pm |
re: #120 rwmofo
Imagine a world in which we could have freedom of choice for where our children can go to school. But the media/Democrat Party and teachers unions are totally intolerant when this subject is brought up for discussion.
Imagine a world where my tax dollars go to support a religious school that actually does no better then the local district. In Arkansas there is a pretty good chance that that private school actually does a worse job of turning out graduates who can't think, but they all know that the earth is 6000 years old.
| 144 |
laZardo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:39:25pm |
I'm gonna back off for the time being.
Just remember though that I'm not the one wielding the broad brush. When conservatives paint themselves so gratuitously with it like they're doing now, I don't even have to pick the damn thing up.
| 145 |
Stanghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:40:05pm |
re: #120 rwmofo
Imagine a world in which we could have freedom of choice for where our children can go to school. But the media/Democrat Party and teachers unions are totally intolerant when this subject is brought up for discussion.
you live in a different world. I bet you "have yours" right?
| 147 |
jaunte Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:40:25pm |
re: #133 prairiefire
Surprise! The Koch billionaire dirt bags are behind much of the right wing moves in WI:[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
At a time when Koch Industries owners David and Charles Koch awarded themselves an extra $11 billion of income from the company, Koch slashed jobs at their Green Bay plant:
...
Koch Industries was one of the biggest contributors to Walker’s gubernatorial campaign, funneling $43,000 over the course of last year. In return, Koch front groups are closely guiding the Walker agenda. The American Legislative Exchange Council, another Koch-funded group, advised Walker and the GOP legislature on its anti-labor legislation and its first corporate tax cuts.
Walker works pretty cheaply, considering what the Kochs are taking in.
| 148 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:40:25pm |
re: #141 Gus 802
No one likes a scab. Even a virtual scab.
Hey, if it weren't for scabs we'd all be Romanovs.... (will anyone get this "joke"?)
| 149 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:40:26pm |
re: #120 rwmofo
Imagine a world in which we could have freedom of choice for where our children can go to school. But the media/Democrat Party and teachers unions are totally intolerant when this subject is brought up for discussion.
We do. It's called going to private schools or getting rich and moving to a better zip code. Since when do rightwingers care about people who can't afford to do those things? Aren't they supposed to pull themselves up from their boot straps or something?
| 150 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:40:37pm |
re: #137 jamesfirecat
Well, to a certain extent, your education choices ARE financially determined.
You can do things like work extra jobs, to change your financial situation, or choose not to.
| 151 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:41:05pm |
re: #111 laZardo
It's only a matter of time...
If, and that's a damn big if, that were the case, I'll pray that it's only long after you.
| 152 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:41:34pm |
re: #120 rwmofo
Imagine a world in which we could have freedom of choice for where our children can go to school. But the media/Democrat Party and teachers unions are totally intolerant when this subject is brought up for discussion.
We tried 'Freedom of Choice' here, but we called it 'Separate But Equal', then.
| 153 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:41:44pm |
re: #149 moderatelyradicalliberal
We do. It's called going to private schools or getting rich and moving to a better zip code. Since when do rightwingers care about people who can't afford to do those things? Aren't they supposed to pull themselves up from their boot straps or something?
It's that invisible hand of the market...
| 154 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:41:47pm |
re: #129 Decatur Deb
Two updings for historicity, one downding from Lower Alabama.
Hey, I'm in Texas and we aren't much better. But I keep getting two outta three and that ain't bad.
| 155 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:41:49pm |
re: #150 Floral Giraffe
Well, to a certain extent, your education choices ARE financially determined.
You can do things like work extra jobs, to change your financial situation, or choose not to.
which is one of the reasons our education system blows, it's so pay to play that we're losing our standing in the sciences to better systems in the world
| 156 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:42:01pm |
| 157 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:42:12pm |
re: #95 laZardo
Come on, man.
Uncalled for.
| 158 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:42:48pm |
re: #148 jamesfirecat
Hey, if it weren't for scabs we'd all be Romanovs... (will anyone get this "joke"?)
Get it? Yes. Joke? Bloody poor one, if you ask me.
| 159 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:42:52pm |
re: #122 blueraven
So it is OK to have the political process corrupted...just a matter of who is doing it? Got it.
of course!
| 160 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:43:20pm |
You know what my FAVORITE PART OF LGF IS?
We can have these kinds of discussions, in a heated, but moderately polite fashion.
It exists NOWHERE ELSE. Certainly not in this civilized a discourse.
Kudos to Chharles, and to the Lizards.
| 161 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:43:46pm |
re: #148 jamesfirecat
Hey, if it weren't for scabs we'd all be Romanovs... (will anyone get this "joke"?)
What's that all over you little Alexei?
| 162 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:44:16pm |
re: #147 jaunte
Walker works pretty cheaply, considering what the Kochs are taking in.
Charles Dufort: “You can get a US Congressman elected for $50,000 to $100,000. But once you get them in the re-election rate is over 90%. You can get 18, maybe 20 years out of them. Buying a Congressman is the best investment you can make.
Alec Hardison: “I just threw up in my mouth a little. I am a professional criminal, and I find that disturbing.”
| 163 |
rwmofo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:44:19pm |
re: #143 webevintage
Imagine a world where my tax dollars go to support a religious school that actually does no better then the local district. In Arkansas there is a pretty good chance that that private school actually does a worse job of turning out graduates who can't think, but they all know that the earth is 6000 years old.
Thanks for making my point. Lefties against private schools and solely for government control. Goodbye freedom of choice. Thanks, but no thanks.
| 164 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:44:34pm |
re: #130 WindUpBird
it's all just talking points now
I'm not talking to Dark Falcon, I'm talking to a blog he read somewhere by proxy
With RFMofo you're talking to a second rate AM radio hack lacking in class and objectivity.
| 165 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:44:46pm |
re: #117 dragonfire1981
Gather round children, hear this tale we've got,o
About a state called Wisconsin and a bad guy named Scott
So we'll march day and night by the big cooling tower,
They have the plan but we have the Power.
I'll give an upding for the "Last Exit to Springfield" reference.
| 166 |
simoom Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:45:10pm |
Ezra Klein:
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]
"Contracts would be limited to one year and wages would be frozen until the new contract is settled. Collective bargaining units are required to take annual votes to maintain certification as a union. Employers would be prohibited from collecting union dues and members of collective bargaining units would not be required to pay dues." These rules have nothing to do with pension costs or even bargaining. They're just about weakening unions: They make it harder for unions to collect dues from members, to negotiate stable contracts or to survive a bad year.The best way to understand Walker's proposal is as a multi-part attack on the state's labor unions. In part one, their ability to bargain benefits for their members is reduced. In part two, their ability to collect dues, and thus spend money organizing members or lobbying the legislature, is undercut. And in part three, workers have to vote the union back into existence every single year. Put it all together and it looks like this: Wisconsin's unions can't deliver value to their members, they're deprived of the resources to change the rules so they can start delivering value to their members again, and because of that, their members eventually give in to employer pressure and shut the union down in one of the annual certification elections.
Also, here's a short clip of firefighters showing solidarity with the protesters yesterday:
| 167 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:45:21pm |
re: #120 rwmofo
Imagine a world in which we could have freedom of choice for where our children can go to school. But the media/Democrat Party and teachers unions are totally intolerant when this subject is brought up for discussion.
You know what?
You are not a patriot.
A true patriot believes in the social contract, the basis of the Constitution, which says that America will provide for the common good. How? By educating the ignorant, feeding the hungry, housing the poor. You are all me me me me me!!
You are a Tory, and you guys became irrelevant in the 18th century in this country.
| 168 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:45:48pm |
re: #149 moderatelyradicalliberal
We do. It's called going to private schools or getting rich and moving to a better zip code. Since when do rightwingers care about people who can't afford to do those things? Aren't they supposed to pull themselves up from their boot straps or something?
I've talked to a few rightwingers who think we should do away with public schools entirely and make them all private. One tried to convince me that it all works out, saying he'd crunched the numbers and if the government cut a check to every American for what they pay "on average" in taxes for public schooling each year, it'd be enough or close to it to enroll their kids in a private school.
I immediately laughed and told him the moment that that happens, the best private schools will double or triple their tuition.
| 169 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:46:04pm |
re: #163 rwmofo
Thanks for making my point. Lefties against private schools and solely for government control. Goodbye freedom of choice. Thanks, but no thanks.
This lefty is happy to have private schools compete with public ones.
| 170 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:46:06pm |
re: #107 goddamnedfrank
We are the chickenhawk Republicans. We want a smaller government that tortures people. We say we care about the troops but won't condemn others who may torture them in return! We hate the commie teachers who remind us we haven't always been this way. We jack off to military history but never, ever serve in one. We hate taxes but have no idea how they work. We worship at the altar of our fathers' hand me down mindset because we dare not form our own opinions. We are rudderless sociopaths being towed by the entrenched ignorance of previous generations.
what does it say about me that the idea of checking in with one's family to align one's political opinions just creeps me out big time
I can see shooting the shit about politics casually over beers, but that's it
| 171 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:46:26pm |
re: #163 rwmofo
Thanks for making my point. Lefties against private schools and solely for government control. Goodbye freedom of choice. Thanks, but no thanks.
Define:
- "lefties"
- "private schools"
- "government control"
- "freedom of choice"
(in specific terms which directly relate to and describe the situation in WI)
| 172 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:46:42pm |
re: #166 simoom
Ezra Klein:
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]Also, here's a short clip of firefighters showing solidarity with the protesters yesterday:
[Video]
Especially great since in theory they would be able to keep their union.... for now...
| 173 |
Renaissance_Man Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:47:14pm |
re: #132 Stanley Sea
Truth. I cannot imagine being on the other side of this debate. D_F is holding his own. I want to change his mind, yes, but damn, he deserves huge props for sticking with his principals.
D_F THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS, CHANGE YOUR MIND!
He's not sticking with any principles. He hasn't espoused any principles yet. All he's said is that he sticks with people he thinks are on his team. That's sort of a 'principle', I suppose, but it's just supporting a sports team regardless of facts or evidence.
For the record, making a statement like 'private unions are OK, but public unions are corrupt' and then saying that you'll come up with the reasons why you think that later, is a backwards way of reasoning. That's the very essence of pseudoscience and pseudophilosophy, and it is exactly how inane partisanship works. Having a knee-jerk reaction based on cheerleading first and then contorting yourself to try to justify it is uncritical thinking. It's what leads you to stumble into supporting rabid fascist positions out of misguided loyalty. And it is stunting your intellectual growth.
| 174 |
Ben G. Hazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:47:21pm |
re: #45 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Come now, you should know better than that. Republican tax cuts cost nothing, because that's letting people "keep" their money. It's only when Democrats pass tax cuts that they cost money. It's basic economics!
///
Isn't that "voodoo economics", writ large?
| 175 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:47:25pm |
re: #168 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I immediately laughed and told him the moment that that happens, the best private schools will double or triple their tuition.
The amount of schools that would abandon evolution and teach creationism would dwarf that number.
| 176 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:47:35pm |
re: #163 rwmofo
Thanks for making my point. Lefties against private schools and solely for government control. Goodbye freedom of choice. Thanks, but no thanks.
I'm not against private schools at all actually
We have some awesome montessori schools in Portland that are kicking mighty ass
| 177 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:47:52pm |
re: #145 Stanley Sea
you live in a different world. I bet you "have yours" right?
Or a crab in a barrel trying to keep others from getting theirs. The unions are standing up for themselves and people who can't or won't do that hate on people who can.
It's like closeted gays who work for the GOP to pass anti-gay legislation. Or GOProud members who don't like the "gay left" (most gays) who stick up for themselves all of the time and really loudly.
| 178 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:48:06pm |
re: #170 WindUpBird
what does it say about me that the idea of checking in with one's family to align one's political opinions just creeps me out big time
I can see shooting the shit about politics casually over beers, but that's it
It says that you are your own man, bird costume notwithstanding.
| 179 |
rwmofo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:48:15pm |
re: #164 BigPapa
With RFMofo you're talking to a second rate AM radio hack lacking in class and objectivity.
It's rWmofo. Is it really that hard to spell?
| 180 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:48:17pm |
re: #82 laZardo
I'm surprised that the rest of LGF's conservatives haven't flounced yet.
What? I thought this blog was supposed to be a place for folks of various ideologies to rationally discuss things.
It sounds A LOT like you (and whoever the hell updinged you) want us gone.
Be honest and just say so.
| 181 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:48:26pm |
re: #154 moderatelyradicalliberal
Hey, I'm in Texas and we aren't much better. But I keep getting two outta three and that ain't bad.
No shit, bubba.
| 182 |
Ben G. Hazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:48:46pm |
re: #49 rwmofo
No attempt for debate, just tossing bombs out on the first post...classy.
| 183 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:49:10pm |
re: #180 reine.de.tout
Hello, You! Hope you are well, in spite of tonights debate!
| 184 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:49:35pm |
This is Scott Walker's warm up act. Don't worry. Pretty soon he'll move on to embryonic stem-cell research, abortion, evolution (i.e. science), gay marriage, etc. And you know what position he'll take on those.
| 185 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:49:41pm |
re: #148 jamesfirecat
Hey, if it weren't for scabs we'd all be Romanovs... (will anyone get this "joke"?)
Hemophilia
| 186 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:50:03pm |
re: #178 goddamnedfrank
It says that you are your own man, bird costume notwithstanding.
I also put 300 miles between myself and my parents for that reason :D My brother lives within walking distance of my parents, i can't relate
| 187 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:50:05pm |
re: #172 jamesfirecat
Especially great since in theory they would be able to keep their union... for now...
Especially great because they brought the freakin' BAGPIPES!!
| 188 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:50:10pm |
| 189 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:50:11pm |
re: #95 laZardo
Well, it is almost "summer" here. See you on the stalkerblogs.
Oh, for . . .
Go ahead and enjoy yourself.
You are the mirror image of those banned for being ugly and idiotic.
Hope that makes you happy.
| 190 |
rwmofo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:50:11pm |
re: #169 jamesfirecat
This lefty is happy to have private schools compete with public ones.
Hmmm. You and I agree on something. Well, there is a full moon tonight.
| 191 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:50:20pm |
re: #168 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I've talked to a few rightwingers who think we should do away with public schools entirely and make them all private. One tried to convince me that it all works out, saying he'd crunched the numbers and if the government cut a check to every American for what they pay "on average" in taxes for public schooling each year, it'd be enough or close to it to enroll their kids in a private school.
I immediately laughed and told him the moment that that happens, the best private schools will double or triple their tuition.
Exactly. What part of paying for exclusivity don't some people get?
| 192 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:50:22pm |
re: #179 rwmofo
It's rWmofo. Is it really that hard to spell?
It's DemocratIC party. I s it really that hard to spell?
| 193 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:50:23pm |
re: #174 talon_262
Isn't that "voodoo economics", writ large?
Hey now, call it by it's proper name, Reaganomics. What are you, some kinda commie?
/
| 194 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:50:44pm |
re: #183 Floral Giraffe
Hello, You! Hope you are well, in spite of tonights debate!
What debate?
I've been busy, just check in now and again.
| 195 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:50:46pm |
40 hour work week, brought to you by unions
| 196 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:50:55pm |
re: #192 jamesfirecat
It's DemocratIC party. I s it really that hard to spell?
Lol, warped into that one...
:)
| 197 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:50:56pm |
re: #180 reine.de.tout
What? I thought this blog was supposed to be a place for folks of various ideologies to rationally discuss things.
It sounds A LOT like you (and whoever the hell updinged you) want us gone.
Be honest and just say so.
Honestly, blaming the teachers for the situation in WI really does take a serious willingness to demonize victims. The facts in this case are so incredibly clear, you have to be an asshole or an idiot to side with Walker on this.
This isn't about partisanship, it's about basic human decency. I'm sorry to say Dark_Falcon and rwmofo are severely lacking in this regard.
| 198 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:51:31pm |
re: #154 moderatelyradicalliberal
Hey, I'm in Texas and we aren't much better. But I keep getting two outta three and that ain't bad.
Oh, lord, I'll confess on Sunday, but right now I can't resist...
| 199 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:51:31pm |
re: #177 moderatelyradicalliberal
Or a crab in a barrel trying to keep others from getting theirs. The unions are standing up for themselves and people who can't or won't do that hate on people who can.
It's like closeted gays who work for the GOP to pass anti-gay legislation. Or GOProud members who don't like the "gay left" (most gays) who stick up for themselves all of the time and really loudly.
You know, I actually hadn't heard the phrase "crab barrel" / crab bucket before I read Terry Pratchett's Unseen Academicals...
| 200 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:51:36pm |
meanwhile, republican trying to ax child labor laws: [Link: www.komu.com...]
| 201 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:52:05pm |
re: #187 Decatur Deb
Especially great because they brought the freakin' BAGPIPES!!
I bet Scott will fold just to get them to stop playing.
| 202 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:52:16pm |
re: #197 Fozzie Bear
Honestly, blaming the teachers for the situation in WI really does take a serious willingness to demonize victims. The facts in this case are so incredibly clear, you have to be an asshole or an idiot to side with Walker on this.
This isn't about partisanship, it's about basic human decency. I'm sorry to say Dark_Falcon and rwmofo are severely lacking in this regard.
this
I don't think Df would be saying these things with SFZ in the room
| 203 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:52:26pm |
re: #183 Floral Giraffe
Hello, You! Hope you are well, in spite of tonights debate!
The only thing I'm upset about is Lazardo (and his updingers) making it crystal-fucking-clear he doesn't want some folks around anymore.
| 204 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:52:26pm |
re: #180 reine.de.tout
What? I thought this blog was supposed to be a place for folks of various ideologies to rationally discuss things.
It sounds A LOT like you (and whoever the hell updinged you) want us gone.
Be honest and just say so.
And, there are quite a few "conservatives' as you say, on LGF.
We're vocal, but we;re not what you think we "should" be.
At least, I am not. I avoid "group think". What is your opinion based on?
| 205 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:53:01pm |
re: #181 austin_blue
No shit, bubba.
Hey now. I'm from Dallas, home of Neiman Marcus thank you very much. And most of our Bubbas moved to the suburbs when schools desegregated.
| 206 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:53:03pm |
re: #190 rwmofo
Hmmm. You and I agree on something. Well, there is a full moon tonight.
I generally feel that there should be a government established and run cookie cutter version of every major service and a more gold platted more expensive version of it out there for those who have the money to spend on such things.
See Healthcare for example....
| 207 |
jaunte Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:53:04pm |
Interesting memo from the Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau (pdf linked below).
Walker gins up ‘crisis’ to reward cronies
In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist.
The Fiscal Bureau memo -- which readers can access at [Link: legis.wisconsin.gov...] -- makes it clear that Walker did not inherit a budget that required a repair bill.
| 208 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:53:22pm |
re: #200 WindUpBird
meanwhile, republican trying to ax child labor laws: [Link: www.komu.com...]
Dickens!
The GOP Know Nothings is are on the long march to revanchist America.
| 209 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:53:28pm |
re: #200 WindUpBird
meanwhile, republican trying to ax child labor laws: [Link: www.komu.com...]
It's not the 19th century quite yet, but you can certainly see it from here.
| 210 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:53:32pm |
re: #203 reine.de.tout
The only thing I'm upset about is Lazardo (and his updingers) making it crystal-fucking-clear he doesn't want some folks around anymore.
So who cares what he/she/it wants?
Charles's blog, and Charles's rules!
*smooch*
| 211 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:53:54pm |
re: #209 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
It's not the 19th century quite yet, but you can certainly see it from here.
Bring back company chits!
Weld the workers into their factories!
| 212 |
Stanghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:53:59pm |
Great conver. I'll catch up tomorrow.
Floral, I have my handbag. I'm out!
| 213 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:54:01pm |
re: #197 Fozzie Bear
Honestly, blaming the teachers for the situation in WI really does take a serious willingness to demonize victims. The facts in this case are so incredibly clear, you have to be an asshole or an idiot to side with Walker on this.
This isn't about partisanship, it's about basic human decency. I'm sorry to say Dark_Falcon and rwmofo are severely lacking in this regard.
No. I believe DF is wrong about this, but I deeply value his input and hope that he can change his views on the subject. rwmofo, OTOH, appears to be trying to get DF to fire up the grill.
| 214 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:54:12pm |
First they came for the unions.
Then, they came for the EPA.
Then, they came for the Civil Rights Act...
| 215 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:54:21pm |
re: #195 WindUpBird
40 hour work week, brought to you by unions
I hope everybody enjoys your weekend (brought to you by unions) followed up by many of you enjoying a federal holiday (brought to you by... can anyone tell me?)
| 216 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:54:35pm |
re: #180 reine.de.tout
What? I thought this blog was supposed to be a place for folks of various ideologies to rationally discuss things.
It sounds A LOT like you (and whoever the hell updinged you) want us gone.
Be honest and just say so.
Thank you, Reine. You are exactly correct. I like that we should sanely discuss differences and agree to agree, in the end, to disagree, if necessary. And that last sentence looks like an Escher engraving.
How are you tonight, my Queen!? Hope all is well in the City of the Red Stick.
| 217 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:54:49pm |
re: #197 Fozzie Bear
I'm sorry to say Dark_Falcon and rwmofo are severely lacking in this regard.
I reject making that comparison. DF is merely wrong: RWMofo is a wannabe Breitbart hack.
I'd rather hang with somebody I disagree with but has manners and class as opposed to somebody I agree with but has no class or acts like a child.
| 218 |
schnapp Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:54:51pm |
I don't support unions. They are cartels. They have the same goal as any other monoploy; more for their members, but at someone else's expense.
It is the teachers unions that are holding education back in developed countries. They have always been against greater parental choice and support a centralized, command and control education system because it is easier for them to bargain that way. They are doing just as much damage to education as the creationists.
There are plenty of economic reasons to not support unions, not to support workers forming monopolies to improve their pay at the expense of other workers. However, regardless of the economics, I support unions when they are bargaining over health and safety, let me make that clear.
| 219 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:54:57pm |
re: #197 Fozzie Bear
Honestly, blaming the teachers for the situation in WI really does take a serious willingness to demonize victims. The facts in this case are so incredibly clear, you have to be an asshole or an idiot to side with Walker on this.
This isn't about partisanship, it's about basic human decency. I'm sorry to say Dark_Falcon and rwmofo are severely lacking in this regard.
Well, you can think that if you want.
It is entirely possible DF and rwmofo merely see a different SOLUTION to the problem and that's what the disagreement is about, NOT whether teachers are valuable.
So YOU must demonize THEM instead.
| 220 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:55:16pm |
"Obama has a war FOR poverty in the Appalachia region..."
Yup, an (R) just said that on the floor. Why?
Because the EPA wants to institute water testing in the coal mining areas.
| 221 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:55:20pm |
re: #215 jamesfirecat
I hope everybody enjoys your weekend (brought to you by unions) followed up by many of you enjoying a federal holiday (brought to you by... can anyone tell me?)
Uhm...er...Ronald Reagan?
*BZZT!*
Damn, knew it was a trick question. It was Sarah Palin, right?
/
| 222 |
Merkin Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:55:46pm |
re: #163 rwmofo
Thanks for making my point. Lefties against private schools and solely for government control. Goodbye freedom of choice. Thanks, but no thanks.
I am left handed and sent my children to private schools, except for college, they both went to Georgia Tech.
| 223 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:56:09pm |
re: #210 Floral Giraffe
So who cares what he/she/it wants?
Charles's blog, and Charles's rules!
*smooch*
*smooch* backatcha.
I'm sending you an email, I finished my stained glass, I'll send photos.
| 224 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:56:35pm |
To recap. RWMFO said:
If you care more about yourself than our children, join a union.
| 225 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:56:36pm |
re: #199 jamesfirecat
You know, I actually hadn't heard the phrase "crab barrel" / crab bucket before I read Terry Pratchett's Unseen Academicals...
Hmmm....Discworld....
| 226 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:57:03pm |
re: #180 reine.de.tout
What? I thought this blog was supposed to be a place for folks of various ideologies to rationally discuss things.
It sounds A LOT like you (and whoever the hell updinged you) want us gone.
Be honest and just say so.
I updinged some of the things he said because I agreed with him... when he starts talking about saying DF should flounce I hit the red button and I hit it hard...
I appreciate having DF around, but dear god he's been like like a Doctor Reasonable Mr. Wingut this week when it comes to unions....
| 227 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:57:25pm |
re: #163 rwmofo
Thanks for making my point. Lefties against private schools and solely for government control. Goodbye freedom of choice. Thanks, but no thanks.
That is so much BULL SHIT.
Thanks for making my point by twisting what i said into something I did not say.
I have no problem with private schools...I have a problem with my tax dollars that we pay each year in property taxes to support our local public schools being sent to private schools.
Espically private religious schools.
| 228 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:57:35pm |
re: #220 freetoken
"Obama has a war FOR poverty in the Appalachia region..."
Yup, an (R) just said that on the floor. Why?
Because the EPA wants to institute water testing in the coal mining areas.
Drinking water should be like a gameshow, you never know what you're gonna get!
| 229 |
rwmofo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:57:37pm |
re: #192 jamesfirecat
It's DemocratIC party. I s it really that hard to spell?
Heh. ...and you stumbled over a two-letter word. I love dropping by here.
| 230 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:57:43pm |
re: #224 Gus 802
To recap. RWMFO said:
If you care more about yourself than our children, join a union.
Oops. rwmofo. Which of course is short for "Right Wing Mother Fucker". A pleasant name it is.
| 231 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:57:50pm |
re: #219 reine.de.tout
Well, you can think that if you want.
It is entirely possible DF and rwmofo merely see a different SOLUTION to the problem and that's what the disagreement is about, NOT whether teachers are valuable.
So YOU must demonize THEM instead.
I wouldn't put RWmofo on the same level as Dark falcon. Df participates for real, rwmofo doesn't. rwmofo is just copypasting the usual mindless gibberish I hear whenever i turn on an AM station in my car, he's not useful, he contributes nothing except repetition
| 232 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:57:55pm |
re: #224 Gus 802
To recap. RWMFO said:
If you care more about yourself than our children, join a union.DERP
Just a nit...
| 233 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:58:09pm |
re: #224 Gus 802
To recap. RWMFO said:
If you care more about yourself than our children, join a union.
I wonder if that qualify as demonization?
| 234 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:58:19pm |
re: #225 austin_blue
Hmmm...Discworld...
A world only mildly more more unbelievable than our own....
| 235 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:58:32pm |
re: #233 moderatelyradicalliberal
I wonder if that qualify as demonization?
Let me check.
OK, done.
YES
| 236 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:58:50pm |
re: #219 reine.de.tout
Well, you can think that if you want.
It is entirely possible DF and rwmofo merely see a different SOLUTION to the problem and that's what the disagreement is about, NOT whether teachers are valuable.
So YOU must demonize THEM instead.
I don't demonize them. I feel sorry for them, that they have such a dim view of their own species. It's a shame.
| 237 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:58:51pm |
re: #5 Dark_Falcon
And I stand firmly in agreement with the governor of Wisconsin and wish him every success in his reform efforts.
/downding away
Me too, said the -20. As our president said, elections have consequences. But he didn't mean it that way.
Wisconsin is in very deep financial trouble, and paying teachers something like 100 000 a year in wages and benefits is more than irksome to the general run of the public that makes less than half that while working just as hard and having just as good an education. It's unsustainable.
Teachers will make a middle class living in any event. But here they are, saying how hard they work and how dedicated they are, when at the very time of their speaking they're calling in "sick".
Calling in sick when you're not sick used to be thought dishonorable. A form of fraud. Now we still know, in some side corner of our conscience, that that's exactly what it is. But the left celebrates dishonorable conduct as long as it's in furtherance of its own agenda, which it wrongly equates with "the good".
| 238 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:59:01pm |
re: #226 jamesfirecat
I updinged some of the things he said because I agreed with him... when he starts talking about saying DF should flounce I hit the red button and I hit it hard...
I appreciate having DF around, but dear god he's been like like a Doctor Reasonable Mr. Wingut this week when it comes to unions...
It's the folks who updinged his "surprised" we haven't flounced post I'm talking about.
I can leave anytime. Y'all just let me know when you've decided my time is up.
| 239 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:59:08pm |
Hehe... the VA (R) just argued that mountain-top removal coal extraction is good for the environment because it increases biodiversity...
| 241 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:59:31pm |
"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"
| 242 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:59:33pm |
re: #239 freetoken
Hehe... the VA (R) just argued that mountain-top removal coal extraction is good for the environment because it increases biodiversity...
Facepalm.
| 243 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:59:35pm |
re: #224 Gus 802
To recap. RWMFO said:
If you care more about yourself than our children, join a union.
What a great talking point!
| 244 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:59:42pm |
re: #239 freetoken
Hehe... the VA (R) just argued that mountain-top removal coal extraction is good for the environment because it increases biodiversity...
No way. A Republican said that?
| 245 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:59:43pm |
| 246 |
jaunte Fri, Feb 18, 2011 7:59:57pm |
re: #237 lostlakehiker
Wisconsin is in very deep financial trouble,
What do you make of the memo I linked up at 207?
| 247 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:00:11pm |
| 248 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:00:39pm |
re: #238 reine.de.tout
It's the folks who updinged his "surprised" we haven't flounced post I'm talking about.
I can leave anytime. Y'all just let me know when you've decided my time is up.
Again, big difference between a guy like rwmofo, and people like you, ace, DF, etc
| 250 |
rwmofo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:01:08pm |
re: #206 jamesfirecat
I generally feel that there should be a government established and run cookie cutter version of every major service and a more gold platted more expensive version of it out there for those who have the money to spend on such things.
See Healthcare for example...
...and with that, we part ways. The world is back in sync.
| 251 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:01:10pm |
re: #216 austin_blue
Thank you, Reine. You are exactly correct. I like that we should sanely discuss differences and agree to agree, in the end, to disagree, if necessary. And that last sentence looks like an Escher engraving.
How are you tonight, my Queen!? Hope all is well in the City of the Red Stick.
Hey!
Yes, things are fine, other than, of course, my being an eeeeeviiil conservative.
Hope things are well with you.
| 252 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:01:11pm |
re: #237 lostlakehiker
Wisconsin is not in financial deep trouble. They only have to repeal 3 pieces of legislation, passed since January, and there is no problem.
Instead, they attack the constitutional rights of the citizens of WI. It's morally reprehensible, and deceitful.
| 254 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:01:36pm |
re: #252 Fozzie Bear
Wisconsin is not in financial deep trouble. They only have to repeal 3 pieces of legislation, passed since January, and there is no problem.
Instead, they attack the constitutional rights of the citizens of WI. It's morally reprehensible, and deceitful.
Frakin' A!
| 255 |
jaunte Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:01:41pm |
re: #251 reine.de.tout
I want to see your stained glass, too!
| 256 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:01:45pm |
re: #237 lostlakehiker
Me too, said the -20. As our president said, elections have consequences. But he didn't mean it that way.
Wisconsin is in very deep financial trouble, and paying teachers something like 100 000 a year in wages and benefits is more than irksome to the general run of the public that makes less than half that while working just as hard and having just as good an education. It's unsustainable.
Have you heard how Wisconsin's trouble was created by the newly elected Governor giving away around 140 mill in tax cuts there by creating this "deep financial trouble" that he then exploited to bash unions?
Can you prove to me that this is not true?
| 257 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:02:02pm |
re: #234 jamesfirecat
A world only mildly more more unbelievable than our own...
That's funny, because it's true. In some ways, it's *more* believable than our own.
I really want to meet Cohen the Barbarian.
| 258 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:02:02pm |
re: #237 lostlakehiker
Me too, said the -20. As our president said, elections have consequences. But he didn't mean it that way.
Wisconsin is in very deep financial trouble, and paying teachers something like 100 000 a year in wages and benefits is more than irksome to the general run of the public that makes less than half that while working just as hard and having just as good an education. It's unsustainable.
Teachers will make a middle class living in any event. But here they are, saying how hard they work and how dedicated they are, when at the very time of their speaking they're calling in "sick".
Calling in sick when you're not sick used to be thought dishonorable. A form of fraud. Now we still know, in some side corner of our conscience, that that's exactly what it is. But the left celebrates dishonorable conduct as long as it's in furtherance of its own agenda, which it wrongly equates with "the good".
Oh hay you're repeating that right wing think tank Drudge linked to again! WHY WOULD DRUDGE LIE?!?!?!?!?!
Cite your facts, please, getting tired of the lies
| 259 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:02:51pm |
re: #250 rwmofo
...and with that, we part ways. The world is back in sync.
So what you don't think there should be public schools?
| 260 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:02:51pm |
re: #252 Fozzie Bear
Wisconsin is not in financial deep trouble. They only have to repeal 3 pieces of legislation, passed since January, and there is no problem.
Instead, they attack the constitutional rights of the citizens of WI. It's morally reprehensible, and deceitful.
I love it when they just OUTRIGHT LIE
| 261 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:03:15pm |
Another anti-NOAA amendment, this time to stop "catch-share" programs, which limit the amount of fish that can be caught off of certain states.
It's a bipartisan amendment, where the reps from districts where the fishermen are located obviously for it.
Classic. Still, strange to see Barney Frank standing to support a GOP amendment.
| 262 |
Renaissance_Man Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:03:26pm |
re: #237 lostlakehiker
Wisconsin is in very deep financial trouble, and paying teachers something like 100 000 a year in wages and benefits is more than irksome to the general run of the public that makes less than half that while working just as hard and having just as good an education. It's unsustainable.
So, if I have this right, in your universe teachers are paid like kings and when AIDS first hit the scene back in the 80s, the media brainwashed homosexuals into thinking they weren't at risk out of political correctness.
What web browser do you use? Because I'm interested in making contact with your universe for scientific reasons.
| 263 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:03:40pm |
re: #237 lostlakehiker
Me too, said the -20. As our president said, elections have consequences. But he didn't mean it that way.
Wisconsin is in very deep financial trouble, and paying teachers something like 100 000 a year in wages and benefits is more than irksome to the general run of the public that makes less than half that while working just as hard and having just as good an education. It's unsustainable.
Teachers will make a middle class living in any event. But here they are, saying how hard they work and how dedicated they are, when at the very time of their speaking they're calling in "sick".
Calling in sick when you're not sick used to be thought dishonorable. A form of fraud. Now we still know, in some side corner of our conscience, that that's exactly what it is. But the left celebrates dishonorable conduct as long as it's in furtherance of its own agenda, which it wrongly equates with "the good".
Thank you for that.
BTW, I'm still here, but I'm preparing for a game that will be held tomorrow, so I've been packing some stuff.
| 264 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:04:07pm |
re: #262 Renaissance_Man
So, if I have this right, in your universe teachers are paid like kings and when AIDS first hit the scene back in the 80s, the media brainwashed homosexuals into thinking they weren't at risk out of political correctness.
What web browser do you use? Because I'm interested in making contact with your universe for scientific reasons.
Libertarians, they're sorta...different!
| 265 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:04:12pm |
re: #190 rwmofo
Hmmm. You and I agree on something. Well, there is a full moon tonight.
Please, put your pants back on. PLEASE!
| 266 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:04:19pm |
| 267 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:04:28pm |
re: #258 WindUpBird
Oh hay you're repeating that right wing think tank Drudge linked to again! WHY WOULD DRUDGE LIE?!?!?!?!?!
Cite your facts, please, getting tired of the lies
That's from the McIver Institute. To recap see: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 268 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:04:59pm |
re: #267 Gus 802
That's from the McIver Institute. To recap see: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Hah!
Figures.
| 269 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:05:04pm |
re: #260 WindUpBird
I love it when they just OUTRIGHT LIE
It can't be repeated enough that this entire situation is fabricated, and based on bullshit. I have NO respect for anyone who would side with Walker on this, if they have access to the facts. None.
It's a morally reprehensible attack on our constitutional protections. When people take positions like this, they are attacking MY rights and freedoms, and I take it personally.
| 270 |
jaunte Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:05:04pm |
re: #266 reine.de.tout
Uh oh; I'm not there... My compliments will have to be delayed.
| 271 |
HappyWarrior Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:05:04pm |
My problem with the response to the protesting is the demonization of cops, firefighters, teachers, and other public employees. I am sorry but that's horseshit. The idea that government employees don't work hard is ludicrous.
| 272 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:05:16pm |
re: #263 Dark_Falcon
Thank you for that.
BTW, I'm still here, but I'm preparing for a game that will be held tomorrow, so I've been packing some stuff.
Dark have you heard the rumors/suggestions that the reason that WI is in its current financial situation is because its newly elected Governor decided to give out HUGE tax breaks thereby plunging the budget from black to read?
Several people have posted about this but I have yet to see you comment on it...
What are your thoughts?
Would this being a self created crisis change your opinion any?
| 273 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:05:32pm |
re: #223 reine.de.tout
*smooch* backatcha.
I'm sending you an email, I finished my stained glass, I'll send photos.
WOOT!
| 274 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:05:44pm |
re: #237 lostlakehiker
Me too, said the -20. As our president said, elections have consequences. But he didn't mean it that way.
Wisconsin is in very deep financial trouble, and paying teachers something like 100 000 a year in wages and benefits is more than irksome to the general run of the public that makes less than half that while working just as hard and having just as good an education. It's unsustainable.
Teachers will make a middle class living in any event. But here they are, saying how hard they work and how dedicated they are, when at the very time of their speaking they're calling in "sick".
Calling in sick when you're not sick used to be thought dishonorable. A form of fraud. Now we still know, in some side corner of our conscience, that that's exactly what it is. But the left celebrates dishonorable conduct as long as it's in furtherance of its own agenda, which it wrongly equates with "the good".
Something tells me you also would not have the balls to stand toe to toe with SFZ on your hilarious horseshit
| 275 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:05:53pm |
re: #268 Varek Raith
Hah!
Figures.
But of course! They're also hooked up with American's for Prosperity.
Fucking right wing astroturfers.
| 276 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:05:58pm |
re: #252 Fozzie Bear
Wisconsin is not in financial deep trouble. They only have to repeal 3 pieces of legislation, passed since January, and there is no problem.
Instead, they attack the constitutional rights of the citizens of WI. It's morally reprehensible, and deceitful.
Collective bargaining is not a constitutional right. This bill does not violate the right to free association. Forbidding a union to deduct dues from a worker's paycheck does not forbid that union from operating as a free association.
| 277 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:06:02pm |
Ya gotta love the rightwing's narrative about all this. Wisconsin somehow went from being roughly $120 million in the black by year's end to $140 million in the red, and the unions are to blame. And Walker, being a saintly "fiscal conservative," is looking to fix his state's woes by "asking" those unions to agree to some simple concessions. Oh, and lopping them off at the knees, but hey, unions are bad to begin with.
How wrong we were to vote them out of office in '06 and '08.
//How I typed all that without collapsing into laughter, I'll never know.
| 278 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:06:25pm |
re: #237 lostlakehiker
Me too, said the -20. As our president said, elections have consequences. But he didn't mean it that way.
Wisconsin is in very deep financial trouble, and paying teachers something like 100 000 a year in wages and benefits is more than irksome to the general run of the public that makes less than half that while working just as hard and having just as good an education. It's unsustainable.
Teachers will make a middle class living in any event. But here they are, saying how hard they work and how dedicated they are, when at the very time of their speaking they're calling in "sick".
Calling in sick when you're not sick used to be thought dishonorable. A form of fraud. Now we still know, in some side corner of our conscience, that that's exactly what it is. But the left celebrates dishonorable conduct as long as it's in furtherance of its own agenda, which it wrongly equates with "the good".
No, I celebrate reminding people of what your absence would be like if you continue to treat them like shit. Sometimes getting up, walking away and letting people miss you is required to get some appreciation. Teachers and other public workers are taken for granted and barely treated as professionals who provide value in this country. That attitude needs to change. Sorry, if they are being nice about it. Nobody told them that rightwing protesters were the only people allowed to get mad as hell and pursue interests that concern them.
SOLIDARITY!!
| 279 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:06:28pm |
re: #229 rwmofo
Heh. ...and you stumbled over a two-letter word. I love dropping by here.
And, we're so happy to have you visit!
///dripping.
| 280 |
rwmofo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:06:29pm |
re: #222 Merkin
I am left handed and sent my children to private schools, except for college, they both went to Georgia Tech.
I've been a Braves fan since '66. I hope you like Hank Aaron. He's one of my heroes.
| 281 |
Daniel Ballard Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:06:39pm |
re: #266 reine.de.tout
Darn fine work there. I would not have suspected it was a first effort at all.
| 282 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:06:54pm |
UPDATE:
Dane Count Circuit Court refuses to issue an injunction against Madison Teachers, Inc as requested by the Madison Metropolitan School District. The executive director of the Local says teachers will be back to school on Tuesday.
[Link: host.madison.com...]
| 283 |
simoom Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:06:55pm |
It's bizarre how defensive Fox gets when people question their objectivity:
Protestors: Fox Lies! Fox Lies! Fox Lies!Defensive FBN Reporter: This is Fox Business Network, just FYI!
FNC Anchor with hurt fee-fees: Well I tell you Jeff, those folks protesting Fox, I wondering if they would prefer a State run television network providing all the coverage ...
I mean the rest of the media are used to decades of constantly being called names "liberal media", "lame stream media", etc. It's just amazing how thin Fox's skin often seems to be.
| 284 |
jaunte Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:07:32pm |
re: #277 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
but hey, unions are bad to begin with.
And not all unions, only the ones Walker can get away with hurting right now.
| 285 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:07:48pm |
Lostlakehiker sex: if teachers protest, that means they don't work hard!
| 286 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:07:53pm |
re: #238 reine.de.tout
It's the folks who updinged his "surprised" we haven't flounced post I'm talking about.
I can leave anytime. Y'all just let me know when you've decided my time is up.
It's not yet.
Don't you DARE go.
I would hunt you down.
//kinda.
I do like having you around.
Ignore the fuctards, if you can!
| 287 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:08:16pm |
Lostlakehiker sex: teachers always make a middle class living! Always!
| 288 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:08:26pm |
re: #246 jaunte
What do you make of the memo I linked up at 207?
That's one man's take. I don't live in Wisconsin but when a deep Blue state goes Red it has to have been because of a real fiscal emergency. If I could be persuaded that teachers in fact are paid a median wage, that the long term trend in pension costs is not out of line with what the private sector pays, and that Wisconsin doesn't face a deficit this year or the next or down the road, then I could change my mind about all this. But my daughter worked as a teacher and didn't get anything like the salaries and benefits that are at issue in Wisconsin.
It's one thing for unions to battle and win wages that reach parity with the non-unionized masses. But when they hit double that number and go for more, who's the elite, and who's getting ground down?
| 289 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:08:35pm |
re: #227 webevintage
That is so much BULL SHIT.
Thanks for making my point by twisting what i said into something I did not say.
I have no problem with private schools...I have a problem with my tax dollars that we pay each year in property taxes to support our local public schools being sent to private schools.
Espically private religious schools.
And just so I am clear I am not talking about Catholic schools or Lutheran schools or what have you. I am talking about evangelical schools who use Bob Jones or Abeka type curriculum. If you want your kids to think the world is 6000 years old then that is your right as a parent but do not expect me to support any movement to give public school monies to support this type of dreck.
| 290 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:08:36pm |
re: #286 Floral Giraffe
It's not yet.
Don't you DARE go.
I would hunt you down.
//kinda.
I do like having you around.
Ignore the fuctards, if you can!
You scare me.
/
:P
| 291 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:08:45pm |
Lostlakehiker says: all teachers get a hundred grand a year in pay and benefits!
| 292 |
compound idaho Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:08:50pm |
re: #258 WindUpBird
Wisconsin Association of School Boards
[Link: www.wasb.org...]
Average total compensation for teachers in WI $81,390 (2011)
| 293 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:09:00pm |
re: #286 Floral Giraffe
It's not yet.
Don't you DARE go.
I would hunt you down.
//kinda.
I do like having you around.
Ignore the fuctards, if you can!
this.
| 294 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:09:11pm |
And tomorrow their guys Scott Walker is going to get a rally headlined by Jim "Dim" Hoft and Andrew Breitbart!
lol Nice company they keep.
Birds of a feather and all that jazz.
| 295 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:09:21pm |
re: #85 moderatelyradicalliberal
How many teachers, who are already under appreciated and underpaid, will leave Wisconsin to teach somewhere else if this crappy bill is made law?
The more I think about it, the more I realize that is really part of the larger goal. The goal is to make it so that all students from families with money will go to private schools, or perhaps publicly funded for-profit schools. Traditional public schools will be left with the teachers that can't get better jobs, and with the children from poor families.
If they can do it, they'll eliminate any type of public education.
These bastards really are that sick.
| 296 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:09:23pm |
lostlakehiker sez: calling in sick is evil and fraud!
| 297 |
rwmofo Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:09:32pm |
re: #224 Gus 802
To recap. RWMFO said:
If you care more about yourself than our children, join a union.
I'll be serious for a moment, then go back to what I normally do. Is rwmofo really that hard to spell?
| 298 |
Big Joe Ghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:09:35pm |
re: #282 wlewisiii
UPDATE:
Dane Count Circuit Court refuses to issue an injunction against Madison Teachers, Inc as requested by the Madison Metropolitan School District. The executive director of the Local says teachers will be back to school on Tuesday.[Link: host.madison.com...]
Lookie there, they are planning on taking another day off at our expense. What's with those guys?
//
| 299 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:09:37pm |
| 301 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:09:40pm |
re: #284 jaunte
And not all unions, only the ones Walker can get away with hurting right now.
Yep. Like all craven cowards, Walker went after what he thought would be easy, defenseless prey. What he didn't realize is that this particular prey has teeth!
| 302 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:09:46pm |
re: #294 Gus 802
And tomorrow their guys Scott Walker is going to get a rally headlined by Jim "Dim" Hoft and Andrew Breitbart!
lol Nice company they keep.
Birds of a feather and all that jazz.
Go team psycho!
| 303 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:10:04pm |
re: #292 compound idaho
Wisconsin Association of School Boards
[Link: www.wasb.org...]
Average total compensation for teachers in WI $81,390 (2011)
Sounds ok to me... It seems quite in line with fully burdened professional salaries.
| 304 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:10:10pm |
re: #297 rwmofo
I'll be serious for a moment, then go back to what I normally do. Is rwmofo really that hard to spell?
Is the phrase "democratic party" that hard to spell?
| 305 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:10:20pm |
| 306 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:10:22pm |
re: #288 lostlakehiker
That's one man's take. I don't live in Wisconsin but when a deep Blue state goes Red it has to have been because of a real fiscal emergency.
Or it could be that too many people believe the lies they hear on FOX and mostly old folks in scooters went to the polls.
| 307 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:10:32pm |
| 308 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:10:35pm |
The problem with teachers
| 309 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:10:51pm |
re: #304 Fozzie Bear
Is the phrase "democratic party" that hard to spell?
also, who says "mofo" anymore?
| 310 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:10:53pm |
Pizza time!
Nom nom nom.
| 311 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:10:58pm |
re: #297 rwmofo
I'll be serious for a moment, then go back to what I normally do. Is rwmofo really that hard to spell?
Just a typo. Heck I'm always bunking up my typing from time to time.
| 312 |
researchok Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:11:19pm |
I supported the WI governor in forcing the unions to deal with the reality of underfunded pensions and benefits to help deal with the deficit.
When the unions told the governor they were willing to deal on benefits and pension contributions, the governor said he wasn't interested- he made it clear his primary intent was stripping the teachers union of collective bargaining rights, pension and benefits give backs be damned.
That's where he lost my vote.
That said, there are two problems here. First, there is the problem of breaking the union- not a good idea, especially if the primary reason is ideological. When the governor brushed away union concessions and stated he was only interested in breaking the collective bargaining powers, his true colors came out. The second problem is the state of the unions themselves. Teachers unions are neither pure, pious or blameless.
Teachers unions have refused competency exams, for example. They say they want to be treated as professionals but there it is almost impossible to fire a tenured teacher no matter the circumstance. Can you imagine not being allowed decertify incompetent pilots or bus drivers or lawyers or dentists? Can you imagine a pilots union insist an incompetent pilot be allowed to return to the cockpit? You can defend unions all you like but everybody understands that at some point teachers are answerable to taxpayers.
The state legislatures actions in Madison are no surprise. It wasn't as if anyone was surprised by the governor's and legislatures position. He ran on these issues and the people voted him into office knowing full well what was to come.
Nevertheless, Governor Scott Walker seems less interested in a necessary fiscal resolution of a real problem than he is in a ideological victory. That is why his credibility is undermined.
| 314 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:11:31pm |
re: #169 jamesfirecat
This lefty is happy to have private schools compete with public ones.
Are you aware that extensive research shows that on average, private schools return less on the dollar in educational value than public schools?
Do you realize that public schools in the U.S. that have a less than 20% poverty rate among students rank with the best educational systems in the world?
| 315 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:11:34pm |
re: #292 compound idaho
Wisconsin Association of School Boards
[Link: www.wasb.org...]
Average total compensation for teachers in WI $81,390 (2011)
I wonder if that includes administrators and supers?
| 316 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:11:37pm |
re: #288 lostlakehiker
That's one man's take. I don't live in Wisconsin but when a deep Blue state goes Red it has to have been because of a real fiscal emergency. If I could be persuaded that teachers in fact are paid a median wage, that the long term trend in pension costs is not out of line with what the private sector pays, and that Wisconsin doesn't face a deficit this year or the next or down the road, then I could change my mind about all this. But my daughter worked as a teacher and didn't get anything like the salaries and benefits that are at issue in Wisconsin.
It's one thing for unions to battle and win wages that reach parity with the non-unionized masses. But when they hit double that number and go for more, who's the elite, and who's getting ground down?
I could see every member of a teachers union driving a Roles Royce and not feel that those people are being paid.
They have the most important job in our nation.
We should f***ing pay them like they do....
| 317 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:11:43pm |
re: #311 Gus 802
Just a typo. Heck I'm always bunking up my typing from time to time.
I love this chickenshit about spelling everything correctly when this thread is moving fast enough for 5 new posts to appear while I'm typing one :D
| 318 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:11:53pm |
re: #316 jamesfirecat
I could see every member of a teachers union driving a Roles Royce and not feel that those people are being paid.
They have the most important job in our nation.
We should f***ing pay them like they do...
Are being paid too much... PIMF....
| 319 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:12:07pm |
re: #292 compound idaho
Wisconsin Association of School Boards
[Link: www.wasb.org...]
Average total compensation for teachers in WI $81,390 (2011)
Association of School Boards, huh? I wonder if they're including admin & district superintendant salaries in that too. Would rather skew the results...
| 320 |
schnapp Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:12:36pm |
re: #271 HappyWarrior
No one's saying they don't. I'm sure 99% of teachers are geneuinely concerned for the well being of their students, but unions exist to benefit their members and get the best deal for their members, regardless of the cost to someone else.
The teachers probably strongly believe that what is good for the unions is also good for the students. I'm not questioning their sincerity or their morals. And if you believe the same thing then you are entitled to that belief. I don't down-ding people for expressing their views.
| 321 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:12:46pm |
re: #252 Fozzie Bear
Wisconsin is not in financial deep trouble. They only have to repeal 3 pieces of legislation, passed since January, and there is no problem.
Instead, they attack the constitutional rights of the citizens of WI. It's morally reprehensible, and deceitful.
Huh? What constitutional rights are we talking about? No possible Wisconsin law can be passed and put into effect that violates either federal or Wisconsin constitution. As to your claim that repeal of this, that, or the other recent item will solve Wisconsin's fiscal problems, not just for the moment but for good, I doubt it.
It's a rare state that isn't in serious and long term fiscal trouble. Wisconsin didn't have the reputation last year of being rock ribbed conservative dime pinchers. How can they not be in fiscal trouble?
| 322 |
DaddyLawBucks Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:12:51pm |
Come on now, no one makes more than a middle class living teaching in a K-12 public school, believe me. It's the typical Republican fascist agenda to attack the unions because they are perceived as "left wing" -- and teachers unions are more prone to attack since all of us had a teacher we hated back in school somewhere. This guy is just looking to validate his run against Obama in 2012 if you ask me. And anyone who is not a union supporter has obviously never held a blue-collar job in their life. Thank God the Teamsters helped me through law school.
| 323 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:13:40pm |
re: #291 WindUpBird
Lostlakehiker says: all teachers get a hundred grand a year in pay and benefits!
100K? Capitalists! They should be worshipped with tax breaks.
$100k a year in totals for rank and file teachers? Show me the goods.
| 324 |
Jadespring Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:14:00pm |
| 325 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:14:03pm |
re: #314 Talking Point Detective
Are you aware that extensive research shows that on average, private schools return less on the dollar in educational value than public schools?
Do you realize that public schools in the U.S. that have a less than 20% poverty rate among students rank with the best educational systems in the world?
Well, I know people taking their kids to a montessori school, because their kids are too smart and too advanced for the local public system and would be bored to shit.
I went to public school, but I went to a well funded public school with a real C++ programming department. If I was going to a public school and there were no accelerated programs, my parents would have put me into private school.
| 326 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:14:04pm |
re: #312 researchok
I supported the WI governor in forcing the unions to deal with the reality of underfunded pensions and benefits to help deal with the deficit.
When the unions told the governor they were willing to deal on benefits and pension contributions, the governor said he wasn't interested- he made it clear his primary intent was stripping the teachers union of collective bargaining rights, pension and benefits give backs be damned.
That's where he lost my vote.
That said, there are two problems here. First, there is the problem of breaking the union- not a good idea, especially if the primary reason is ideological. When the governor brushed away union concessions and stated he was only interested in breaking the collective bargaining powers, his true colors came out. The second problem is the state of the unions themselves. Teachers unions are neither pure, pious or blameless.
Teachers unions have refused competency exams, for example. They say they want to be treated as professionals but there it is almost impossible to fire a tenured teacher no matter the circumstance. Can you imagine not being allowed decertify incompetent pilots or bus drivers or lawyers or dentists? Can you imagine a pilots union insist an incompetent pilot be allowed to return to the cockpit? You can defend unions all you like but everybody understands that at some point teachers are answerable to taxpayers.
The state legislatures actions in Madison are no surprise. It wasn't as if anyone was surprised by the governor's and legislatures position. He ran on these issues and the people voted him into office knowing full well what was to come.
Nevertheless, Governor Scott Walker seems less interested in a necessary fiscal resolution of a real problem than he is in a ideological victory. That is why his credibility is undermined.
Thank you for doing what no one else on this site has done yet, voicing an opinion from the conservative side of the political divide without sounding callous in the process....
| 327 |
Larry A. Herzberg Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:14:10pm |
As a Wisconsinite and a university professor with no collective bargaining rights at the moment, thanks for the support, Charles.
Last year, after 30 years of avoiding the issue, the legislature finally recognized that faculty and staff throughout the UW system have the right to vote on whether to form a union or not. What right could be more American than that? But one of the less spoken-about provisions in Walker's bill is to repeal this recognition. If it passes, we're back to square one: we can't even vote on whether to unionize or not. Such restrictions belong only in an authoritarian dictatorship.
| 328 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:14:13pm |
| 329 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:14:22pm |
re: #205 moderatelyradicalliberal
Hey now. I'm from Dallas, home of Neiman Marcus thank you very much. And most of our Bubbas moved to the suburbs when schools desegregated.
And I'm in the little Blue Pimple surrounded by a sea of red. And every two years, villages across the length and breadth of Texas send their Idiots here to function as Legislators. And we have to put up with them.
And we don't have Nieman Marcus down here, but we do have their Second Call outlet store, which lets us buy the same shit at 60% off.
Neener neener neener!
| 330 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:14:44pm |
re: #321 lostlakehiker
It's a rare state that isn't in serious and long term fiscal trouble. Wisconsin didn't have the reputation last year of being rock ribbed conservative dime pinchers. How can they not be in fiscal trouble?
Arkansas is not and neither is/was WI.
Unless the R's have their way and they get to give corporations a bunch of tax cuts and then we will have issues.
Weird how that works.
| 331 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:15:01pm |
re: #323 BigPapa
100K? Capitalists! They should be worshipped with tax breaks.
$100k a year in totals for rank and file teachers? Show me the goods.
Just go to the website run by the Scott Walker Campaign Finance Co-Chair, Fred Luber. It's all in there!
| 332 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:15:13pm |
re: #215 jamesfirecat
I hope everybody enjoys your weekend (brought to you by unions) followed up by many of you enjoying a federal holiday (brought to you by... can anyone tell me?)
Ronald Reagan?
| 333 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:15:15pm |
re: #321 lostlakehiker
Huh? What constitutional rights are we talking about? No possible Wisconsin law can be passed and put into effect that violates either federal or Wisconsin constitution. As to your claim that repeal of this, that, or the other recent item will solve Wisconsin's fiscal problems, not just for the moment but for good, I doubt it.
It's a rare state that isn't in serious and long term fiscal trouble. Wisconsin didn't have the reputation last year of being rock ribbed conservative dime pinchers. How can they not be in fiscal trouble?
The funny thing about taxing and spending... you don't go into the red so long as you make sure to do both in equal amounts.
Its works just as well pinching pennies and dimes believe it or not!
| 334 |
compound idaho Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:15:31pm |
re: #319 wlewisiii
Association of School Boards, huh? I wonder if they're including admin & district superintendant salaries in that too. Would rather skew the results...
I read it quickly, but it said it was based on FTE of teachers in each district.
| 335 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:15:43pm |
re: #291 WindUpBird
Lostlakehiker says: all teachers get a hundred grand a year in pay and benefits!
Well, this is a factual issue.
Average MPS Teacher Compensation Tops $100k/year
[Milwaukee, Wisconsin] MacIver News Service – For the first time in history, the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public School system will exceed $100,000.
That staggering figure was revealed last night at a meeting of the MPS School Board.
The average salary for an MPS teacher is $56,500. When fringe benefits are factored in, the annual compensation will be $100,005 in 2011.
Source link.
I didn't get it quite right...that's not statewide, it's just Milwaukee.
Still.
| 336 |
jaunte Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:15:53pm |
Texas is running a serious deficit and the average teacher pay there is $41,744.
Lowering teacher pay isn't going to fix the problem.
| 337 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:15:59pm |
re: #314 Talking Point Detective
I believe private schools should exist to specialize, ideally. So if you really want a MORMON EDUCATIOn, or your kid is a music prodigy and there's a private school with amazing music resources, go for it
But this zero-sum shit where the paranoids and the demonizers want to just lie and bullshit about public school teachers and strip them of their power, fuck that, it's toxic to America and it shows a contempt for education itself
| 338 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:16:20pm |
re: #312 researchok
I supported the WI governor in forcing the unions to deal with the reality of underfunded pensions and benefits to help deal with the deficit.
If you're going to talk about "the reality" you might mention that it's the State that didn't live up to it's funding obligations with regards to the pensions, not the unions who did pay in. So why should the unions be forced to help deal with a problem created by the State being demonstrably unwilling to honor contracts that the State voluntarily entered into?
| 339 |
HappyWarrior Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:16:25pm |
re: #320 schnapp
No one's saying they don't. I'm sure 99% of teachers are geneuinely concerned for the well being of their students, but unions exist to benefit their members and get the best deal for their members, regardless of the cost to someone else.
The teachers probably strongly believe that what is good for the unions is also good for the students. I'm not questioning their sincerity or their morals. And if you believe the same thing then you are entitled to that belief. I don't down-ding people for expressing their views.
I am just saying. I am sick and tired of people like Limbaugh, David Horowitz, and others who are a large part of the right wing media and who are influential badmouthing educators. And yeah the union isn't perfect but I can't blame them at all for being pissed at Walker for wanting to cut their right to collective bargain. And I am not downdinging anyone for their views either. People are free to believe what they want to believe however, I don't blame these people for responding the way they have. The people denouncing them need to put themselves in their shoes for a second.
| 340 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:16:36pm |
re: #322 daddylawbucks
Come on now, no one makes more than a middle class living teaching in a K-12 public school, believe me. It's the typical Republican fascist agenda to attack the unions because they are perceived as "left wing" -- and teachers unions are more prone to attack since all of us had a teacher we hated back in school somewhere. This guy is just looking to validate his run against Obama in 2012 if you ask me. And anyone who is not a union supporter has obviously never held a blue-collar job in their life. Thank God the Teamsters helped me through law school.
Homer: You guys work on the movie?
Teamster: You sayin' we're not working?
Homer: Oh, I always wanted to be a Teamster. So lazy and surly...
mind if I relax next to you?
| 341 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:16:53pm |
re: #327 Avram
As a Wisconsinite and a university professor with no collective bargaining rights at the moment, thanks for the support, Charles.
Last year, after 30 years of avoiding the issue, the legislature finally recognized that faculty and staff throughout the UW system have the right to vote on whether to form a union or not. What right could be more American than that? But one of the less spoken-about provisions in Walker's bill is to repeal this recognition. If it passes, we're back to square one: we can't even vote on whether to unionize or not. Such restrictions belong only in an authoritarian dictatorship.
hear this, Dark falcon? Talk to this guy
| 342 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:16:53pm |
re: #319 wlewisiii
Association of School Boards, huh? I wonder if they're including admin & district superintendant salaries in that too. Would rather skew the results...
Looked at the PDF. It gives total number of district FTE's so admin and supers are included in that total giving a major upward skew to to the average. Anyone know where to fund equivalent numbers for only the teachers?
| 343 |
researchok Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:17:03pm |
re: #326 jamesfirecat
Thank you for doing what no one else on this site has done yet, voicing an opinion from the conservative side of the political divide without sounding callous in the process...
Than you James, for that.
The fact is Walker made the matter more complicated- and ugly. He took a real problem and made it worse. The losers? I don't have to spell that out.
This whole episode really upsets me on a lot of levels.
| 344 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:17:21pm |
re: #338 goddamnedfrank
If you're going to talk about "the reality" you might mention that it's the State that didn't live up to it's funding obligations with regards to the pensions, not the unions who did pay in. So why should the unions be forced to help deal with a problem created by the State being demonstrably unwilling to honor contracts that the State voluntarily entered into?
I wish life worked that way! "It's your fault I can't pay you!"
| 345 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:17:37pm |
re: #332 austin_blue
Ronald Reagan?
Actually (and I learned this from Maddow tonight) it is because of workers in WI...some of whom died to bring us the weekend and 8 hour days.
Yeah.
People died.
| 346 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:18:00pm |
re: #320 schnapp
No one's saying they don't. I'm sure 99% of teachers are geneuinely concerned for the well being of their students, but unions exist to benefit their members and get the best deal for their members, regardless of the cost to someone else.
The teachers probably strongly believe that what is good for the unions is also good for the students. I'm not questioning their sincerity or their morals. And if you believe the same thing then you are entitled to that belief. I don't down-ding people for expressing their views.
I'd like to hear your explanation for how unions advocating that teachers get good pensions and health care is harmful to anyone else. Earlier in the day you said that unions are harmful to non-union employees in similar jobs. How does unionization of teachers hurt non-unionized teachers?
| 347 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:18:04pm |
"Questionable science" "IPCC"
CLIMATEGATE!! on the Floor!
Yes, really.
"Climate Alarmist"
The Republican even is doing the "list of scientists" spiel...
| 348 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:18:27pm |
re: #292 compound idaho
Wisconsin Association of School Boards
[Link: www.wasb.org...]
Average total compensation for teachers in WI $81,390 (2011)
This is a lie
unless you consider administrators teachers.
| 349 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:18:35pm |
re: #312 researchok
Even if this fight were solely about the concessions, not the union-busting moves, I'd find it hard to support Walker. The man and his buddies in the legislature turned a $120 million surplus into a $140 deficit in a matter of weeks. They created this "crisis," and now are trying to capitalize on it by waging an ideological fight against the union they think they have the best chance of breaking.
The fact that the union has, in light of this, still said it would agree to the health care and retirement pension concessions, tell me that the man is scum. They may have blemishes, but he is dark down his very frakin' soul.
| 350 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:18:42pm |
re: #288 lostlakehiker
That's one man's take. I don't live in Wisconsin but when a deep Blue state goes Red it has to have been because of a real fiscal emergency. If I could be persuaded that teachers in fact are paid a median wage, that the long term trend in pension costs is not out of line with what the private sector pays, and that Wisconsin doesn't face a deficit this year or the next or down the road, then I could change my mind about all this. But my daughter worked as a teacher and didn't get anything like the salaries and benefits that are at issue in Wisconsin.
It's one thing for unions to battle and win wages that reach parity with the non-unionized masses. But when they hit double that number and go for more, who's the elite, and who's getting ground down?
The unions have said they are willing to pay more and take cuts, they aren't "asking for more". This isn't about wages and benefits, this is about the governor trying to take away their collective bargaining rights and turn Wisconsin into a right to work state. Would your daughter be in favor of that? Did the governor tell you that was his plan when he was running? Did he say, "vote for me and I will turn Wisconsin into a right to work state? Did he tell the police and firefighter unions "endorse me and if I win, I will destroy the unions of your fellow public employees"? Obviously not because the firefighters are out their with the protesters.
Unless, the governor and the GOP ran and won on taking away collective bargaining rights, my guess is Wisconsin will be swinging back in the other direction come 2012. They woke up a sleeping giant that won't be going back to bed anytime soon, no matter what the outcome is. The right has never been as good at protest movements than the left.
| 351 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:18:52pm |
re: #329 austin_blue
And I'm in the little Blue Pimple surrounded by a sea of red. And every two years, villages across the length and breadth of Texas send their Idiots here to function as Legislators. And we have to put up with them.
And we don't have Nieman Marcus down here, but we do have their Second Call outlet store, which lets us buy the same shit at 60% off.
Neener neener neener!
Ancient Fort Worth joke:
Q: Where do you take a visitor from Dallas?
A: Back to Dallas
| 352 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:18:53pm |
re: #325 WindUpBird
Well, I know people taking their kids to a montessori school, because their kids are too smart and too advanced for the local public system and would be bored to shit.
I went to public school, but I went to a well funded public school with a real C++ programming department. If I was going to a public school and there were no accelerated programs, my parents would have put me into private school.
I'm not sure I get what your point is here.
| 353 |
Renaissance_Man Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:19:10pm |
re: #292 compound idaho
Wisconsin Association of School Boards
[Link: www.wasb.org...]
Average total compensation for teachers in WI $81,390 (2011)
What does 'total compensation' mean? Does it include actual compensation, such as money, and imaginary compensation such as pensions that were promised but aren't going to be delivered on?
| 354 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:20:02pm |
Big Insurance, Big Oil, Big Banks Join FOX News in Financing $2 Million in Walker Negative Attacks
Walker Support of Special Interests Over Wisconsin Families Helps Fill RGA Coffers
Madison - Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker's long career of supporting big oil, big banks and big insurance has paid off with enormous contributions for the Republican Governors Association, which has raised $27 million in 2010 alone and has already purchased $1 million in attack ads in Wisconsin. Total spending by the Republican Governors Association to support Walker's anti-middle class priorities will likely top $2 million this year.
"Scott Walker has long supported big oil, big banks and Wall Street and big insurance and they are returning the favor," said Scot Ross, One Wisconsin Now Executive Director. "Fox News is just the latest to join Scott Walker's attacks against middle class working families in Wisconsin."
According to Internal Revenue Service records, the Republican Governors Association has raised just over $27 million in 2010. Among RGA's top recent givers are oil and gas interests, health insurance and the financial industry, including $1 million from Koch Industries, the nation's largest privately-held energy company, and $500,000 from Wellpoint, whose subsidiary has proposed a 24 percent hike for Wisconsin customers this year. [IRS.gov; Center for Responsive Politics; Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 3/13/10]
The Republican Governors Association has financed nearly $1 million in Wisconsin ads and has purchased additional time that will push the spending to well beyond $2 million in television ads alone.
Walker has fought on the side of insurance, oil and banks throughout his long political career to the detriment of working Wisconsinites, including:
* Walker opposes prohibiting insurance companies from kicking people off their insurance plans when they get sick or if they have a pre-existing condition, and allowing young adults to access their parents' insurance plans until age 26.
* Walker opposes job creation through high speed rail and opposed the Clean Energy jobs plan to reduce dependence on oil.
* Walker opposes new accountability measures for the financial industries which helped drive the economic collapse and would open a corporate loophole allowing companies to hide their assets in other states - even though it would mean massive cuts to education, health care and police and fire fighters.
"Whenever he has the choice, Scott Walker puts big oil, big insurance and big banks before the people of Wisconsin," said Ross. "Now comes the payoff - $2-million in vicious, negative ads, paid for by Walker's special interest cronies."
| 355 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:20:18pm |
re: #342 wlewisiii
Looked at the PDF. It gives total number of district FTE's so admin and supers are included in that total giving a major upward skew to to the average. Anyone know where to fund equivalent numbers for only the teachers?
Whaddyou, troublemaker?
| 356 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:20:41pm |
re: #342 wlewisiii
Looked at the PDF. It gives total number of district FTE's so admin and supers are included in that total giving a major upward skew to to the average. Anyone know where to fund equivalent numbers for only the teachers?
That's what I thought.
Your average teacher without a Master's degree does not bring home oddles and oddles of cash.
They are middle class workers.
They don't get "free" health care nor do they not pay into their pensions.
(is WI one of the states where public sector workers are not allowed to contribute to medicare or SS so they only have what was promised them when they retire?)
| 357 |
Daniel Ballard Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:20:42pm |
I'm surprised that the rest of LGF's conservatives haven't flounced yet.
The hell I will. I'll not ever flounce this place. I respect the host and the folks that inhabit forum far too much. Even when I disagree. Maybe especially so. I stand with the fiscal conservative pov as and when it stands on its own bereft of partisan noise and influence.
Why argue with the heartfelt position of our host? No need, other topics await. Sometimes I'll show my respect and disagreement sometimes with silence, but never ever a flounce.
As to Wisconsin, I await the results and I'll post more about it then.
When the arguments are at their harshest-A friends lyrics seem appropriate.
| 358 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:20:46pm |
Koch Brothers Fill Up Walker's Campaign Tank
By Scot Ross on September 7, 2010 3:08 PM
We already know Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker is on the big oil bandwagon.
After all, this is the guy who taken at least $70,000 from oil, gas and pipeline companies, while being a loud voice opposing the Clean Energy Jobs Act and the high speed rail project that would reduce Wisconsin's dependence on oil.
The Clean Energy Jobs Act would have created an additional 15,000 good-paying jobs and the high speed rail project will bring 5,500 construction and engineering jobs in the next couple of year.
And now the payoff: $15,000 to Walker's campaign account from his friends at Koch Industries PAC.
Walker's just-released pre-primary campaign finance report shows a $15,000 gimme from the Koch PAC back on July 9, 2010.
Koch is the nation's second-largest privately held corporation. They have oil interests across the country, including in Wisconsin.
Koch gave the Republican Governor's Association $1 million for smear ads, and they have delivered a series of discredited attacks against Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett.
In addition, they have been the driving financial force behind the teapartiers at Americans for Prosperity.
Details of the wide-reaching tentacles of the right-wing Koch outfit was also featured in a recent New Yorker piece.
Scott Walker: Against job creation through green energy and rail, but for big money from big oil's biggest mouthpiece.
So, when it comes to putting the interests of out-of-state big oil before those of the people of Wisconsin, Scott Walker's message is "fill 'er up."
| 359 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:20:49pm |
re: #352 Talking Point Detective
I'm not sure I get what your point is here.
My point is I'm not opposed to private schools. Especially when you're talking about kids with unusual talents or special needs. basically it was a rebuke to mindless talking-point perpetual motion machine R. W. Mofo Esquire
| 360 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:20:58pm |
Off topic:
I'm digging Goldfrapp but happy I ripped all of Zeppelin at 128k tonight.
But setting up camera DVRs through VirginMobile 3G trying to use dyndns sucks mega Godzilla balls. Let me hit the 'DRINK' button before I call tech support 4 times in a row till I get somebody who can listen and communicate as opposed to regurgitate what the screen tells them.
| 361 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:21:15pm |
re: #353 Renaissance_Man
What does 'total compensation' mean? Does it include actual compensation, such as money, and imaginary compensation such as pensions that were promised but aren't going to be delivered on?
hahaha good call!
| 362 |
funky chicken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:21:46pm |
re: #34 freetoken
Hehe... Franks AZ offered up an amendment to reduce ethanol subsidies... and a Republican from Iowa had to rise to argue against it.
good grief
| 363 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:21:48pm |
re: #336 jaunte
Texas is running a serious deficit and the average teacher pay there is $41,744.
Lowering teacher pay isn't going to fix the problem.
Raising it every year like clockwork when it's already out of line is the answer, then? However deep the hole Texas is in, it would be deeper if the salaries of various governmental workers were higher. We in fact have wage freezes in place in a lot of sectors.
Public employees have secure employment, which is a big deal in today's economy. It's just not seemly to be clawing for more, when everybody else is making do with less.
| 364 |
researchok Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:22:11pm |
re: #349 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Even if this fight were solely about the concessions, not the union-busting moves, I'd find it hard to support Walker. The man and his buddies in the legislature turned a $120 million surplus into a $140 deficit in a matter of weeks. They created this "crisis," and now are trying to capitalize on it by waging an ideological fight against the union they think they have the best chance of breaking.
The fact that the union has, in light of this, still said it would agree to the health care and retirement pension concessions, tell me that the man is scum. They may have blemishes, but he is dark down his very frakin' soul.
That's what elections are all about.
The citizens of that state elected him knowing full well his agenda.
That said, I have to agree with you. When he blatantly states concessions and the unions willingness to work with the state are not as important as his busting the union, well, that tells you his real agenda.
| 365 |
DaddyLawBucks Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:22:16pm |
re: #340 jamesfirecat
Please tell me you have actually done hard work? Dug ditches? Moved pianos? Laid pipe?
| 366 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:22:17pm |
I hope this doesn't come across as "Tea Party" but, ultimately, we the taxpayers are paying for all of these services. High Speed Rail, Highways, etc. Shouldn't we have the right to at least influence how are tax dollars are spent? It's over 25 % of my pay, I'd like to at least have a voice in deciding how it's spent. Beyond voting for a politician. What say you?
| 367 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:22:21pm |
re: #326 jamesfirecat
Thank you for doing what no one else on this site has done yet, voicing an opinion from the conservative side of the political divide without sounding callous in the process...
Teachers unions have been slow to adopt to changes that will help make the system more accountable. Then again, they are constantly under attack and thus a siege mentality is somewhat understandable. For example, merit pay based on student test scores has shown to be ineffective at multiple levels - and when teachers unions raise valid complaints about such systems the are accused of protecting teachers at the expense of students.
| 368 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:22:41pm |
re: #354 Gus 802
Big Insurance, Big Oil, Big Banks Join FOX News in Financing $2 Million in Walker Negative Attacks
Walker Support of Special Interests Over Wisconsin Families Helps Fill RGA Coffers
Wait... did I read that title right?
Fox News is paying money to run adds against a Republican?
| 369 |
Lidane Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:22:51pm |
re: #336 jaunte
Texas is running a serious deficit and the average teacher pay there is $41,744.
Lowering teacher pay isn't going to fix the problem.
Neither is closing schools, but that's what's happening here in Austin.
| 370 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:22:55pm |
re: #365 daddylawbucks
Please tell me you have actually done hard work? Dug ditches? Moved pianos? Laid pipe?
I think he was making a simpsons quote thing
| 371 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:22:57pm |
Scott Walker has committed waste, fraud and abuse
By Anna Landmark on August 16, 2010 10:41 AM
Scott Walker's been on a "waste, fraud and abuse" tirade lately, conveniently omitting the fact that Milwaukee County has been swimming in waste, fraud and abuse throughout his eight years as County Executive.
Here are a few examples:
* A "glitch" in the county's pension system computer software deposited some $10 million in pension payments to the county's retirees. That was after a $10 million computer system upgrade paid for just a year earlier. [Link: www.jsonline.com...]
* And now, the pension cuts that Walker was pushing earlier this year will cost the county another $580,000 in computer upgrades, according to the pension board. [Link: www.jsonline.com...]
* A county audit found that errors and omissions resulted in estimated annualized overpayments of $328,000 in the $11.9 million Milwaukee County Rent Assistance program.
* A county audit found that Milwaukee County Program Integrity Unit needed a more comprehensive, strategic approach to detect and pursue child care fraud, and weak child care authorization and payment controls result in overpayments caused by excess authorizations.
* Another county audit found that Walker, through staffing reductions, had concentrated the county purchasing power in the hands of just two people, overseeing approximately $50 million in purchases ($19 million centralized, $31 million decentralized), a disturbing sign of inadequate management oversight and a huge opportunity for fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars.
This is just five examples of the waste, fraud and abuse perpetrated by Scott Walker as Milwaukee County Executive. You can read about more examples here.
| 372 |
researchok Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:22:57pm |
re: #366 Floral Giraffe
I hope this doesn't come across as "Tea Party" but, ultimately, we the taxpayers are paying for all of these services. High Speed Rail, Highways, etc. Shouldn't we have the right to at least influence how are tax dollars are spent? It's over 25 % of my pay, I'd like to at least have a voice in deciding how it's spent. Beyond voting for a politician. What say you?
Might I suggest a flak jacket and helmet?
/
| 373 |
Renaissance_Man Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:23:09pm |
re: #321 lostlakehiker
It's a rare state that isn't in serious and long term fiscal trouble. Wisconsin didn't have the reputation last year of being rock ribbed conservative dime pinchers. How can they not be in fiscal trouble?
Are you seriously basing your 'reasoning' on lines of thought like 'I didn't hear that Wisconsin was acting like a miser, thus they must be in fiscal trouble'?
| 374 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:23:13pm |
re: #292 compound idaho
Wisconsin Association of School Boards
[Link: www.wasb.org...]
Average total compensation for teachers in WI $81,390 (2011)
Yeesh! That's very good money.
| 375 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:24:03pm |
re: #335 lostlakehiker
Well, this is a factual issue.
Source link.
I didn't get it quite right...that's not statewide, it's just Milwaukee.Still.
NOT "still"....
That means supers and admins are added in and top salaries are paid to those with advanced degrees. What is wrong with paying people what they are worth?
| 376 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:24:09pm |
re: #367 Talking Point Detective
Teachers unions have been slow to adopt to changes that will help make the system more accountable. Then again, they are constantly under attack and thus a siege mentality is somewhat understandable. For example, merit pay based on student test scores has shown to be ineffective at multiple levels - and when teachers unions raise valid complaints about such systems the are accused of protecting teachers at the expense of students.
Merit pay is garbage because it puts teachers in poor districts under more pressure, which is exactly what they don't need.
Competentcy exams would be a thing, but it's all in how they're administered.
| 377 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:24:10pm |
re: #363 lostlakehiker
Raising it every year like clockwork when it's already out of line is the answer, then? However deep the hole Texas is in, it would be deeper if the salaries of various governmental workers were higher. We in fact have wage freezes in place in a lot of sectors.
Public employees have secure employment, which is a big deal in today's economy. It's just not seemly to be clawing for more, when everybody else is making do with less.
Yeah how Unamaerican can you be, trying to get rich in the process of doing your job!
| 378 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:24:33pm |
re: #371 Gus 802
but I thought fraud was when teachers took a day off to protest!
| 379 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:24:44pm |
re: #329 austin_blue
And I'm in the little Blue Pimple surrounded by a sea of red. And every two years, villages across the length and breadth of Texas send their Idiots here to function as Legislators. And we have to put up with them.
And we don't have Nieman Marcus down here, but we do have their Second Call outlet store, which lets us buy the same shit at 60% off.
Neener neener neener!
Yeah, Dallas is a little blue dot too. It's better than Georgia which has one blue dot, Atlanta.
| 380 |
jaunte Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:24:53pm |
re: #363 lostlakehiker
The problem with 'cutting costs'[ in education is that it leads to greater social costs in the long-term:
In Texas, nearly 25 percent of the state’s residents aged 25 and older lack a high school diploma. Each year, another 45,000 to 50,000 students drop out of Texas public schools, costing the state $11.4 billion in lost gross state product (GSP). And this process is cumulative; every additional dropout increases the long-term cost to the Texas economy. At current rates, ten years’ worth of dropouts will cost Texas $114 billion in long-term economic output, while 20 years will cost our economy $228 billion.For individuals without a high school diploma, job prospects are bleak. Dropping out costs men $365,707 in lifetime earning potential, and women $236,111. Dropouts cost the state and federal governments $1.4 billion annually in social costs, as they are six times more likely to be incarcerated and 2.7 to 3.7 times more likely to receive public assistance.[Link: www.window.state.tx.us...]
| 381 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:25:10pm |
re: #374 Dark_Falcon
Yeesh! That's very good money.
Assuming it is the fully burdened cost of the employment (including retirement and health insurance), then it is cheap.
Frankly, it wouldn't even be a wage here in San Diego with which one could afford to buy a house.
| 382 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:25:14pm |
re: #335 lostlakehiker
You're lying, a superintendent is not a teacher.
| 383 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:25:15pm |
re: #365 daddylawbucks
Please tell me you have actually done hard work? Dug ditches? Moved pianos? Laid pipe?
No I haven't, I was just busting out a Simpsons quote because it amused me at the time.
I have nothing but respect for those brave men and women who do the job that I as a computer geek never could, but I tend to tease those I love and I also really love busting out Simpsons quotes whenever I get the chance.
| 384 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:25:16pm |
re: #376 WindUpBird
Merit pay is garbage because it puts teachers in poor districts under more pressure, which is exactly what they don't need.
Competentcy exams would be a thing, but it's all in how they're administered.
We've got to try. What we are doing now, is NOT working.
| 385 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:25:30pm |
re: #374 Dark_Falcon
Yeesh! That's very good money.
It's also complete and utter bullshit, as it includes administrator salaries, along with soon to go bye bye pension plans that the State failed to pay into even though it signed contracts saying it would.
| 386 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:25:41pm |
re: #359 WindUpBird
My point is I'm not opposed to private schools. Especially when you're talking about kids with unusual talents or special needs. basically it was a rebuke to mindless talking-point perpetual motion machine R. W. Mofo Esquire
I'm not opposed to private schools either - but privatizing public schools has not shown to lead to better schools on average, and it leads to the even further deterioration of public schools.
Make no mistake about it, the goal of many, many rightwingers is the dismantlement of the entire system of public education. It seems you're creating a false dichotomy. You can have private schools and still be able to improve public schools.
| 387 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:25:47pm |
re: #374 Dark_Falcon
Yeesh! That's very good money.
That's SOP. The average compensation for all employees around the country is typically double the base salary sometimes.
That's a non starter.
| 388 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:26:15pm |
| 389 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:26:38pm |
re: #363 lostlakehiker
Public employees have secure employment, which is a big deal in today's economy. It's just not seemly to be clawing for more, when everybody else is making do with less.
Stop.
Just stop.
They are not "clawing for more" in WI, they are willing to negotiate.
Walker refuses to meet with them.
Are teachers in TX making noises like they are unwilling to negotiate and take some cuts?
| 390 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:26:41pm |
re: #346 Talking Point Detective
I'd like to hear your explanation for how unions advocating that teachers get good pensions and health care is harmful to anyone else. Earlier in the day you said that unions are harmful to non-union employees in similar jobs. How does unionization of teachers hurt non-unionized teachers?
Unionized state employees are part of a feedback loop. Union asks for higher salaries, backs the party that will grant them. Union campaigns for that party, devoting time and money to the effort. Politicians who back the union win. But costs have gone up, so they must raise taxes.
Now they're in hot water with the voters. But with the dedicated support of their public sector unions, they can win anyhow. Provided they up the pay again.
Rinse and repeat. Sooner or later, this merry-go-round breaks. In Wisconsin, it just broke.
What is it about this debate that just blithely and completely ignores the real little guy, who makes far less and has no prospect of a union and doesn't want to join anyhow, and can't get a beer or a soda without paying sales tax through the nose? And can't drive anywhere without getting hit with a revenue-raising speeding ticket? The whole tone of the talk is that the teachers are the oppressed little people. Maybe in Texas. But not in Wisconsin.
| 391 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:26:46pm |
re: #384 Floral Giraffe
We've got to try. What we are doing now, is NOT working.
Trying something, sure. But not merit pay. Merit pay is just more ways to widen the gap between haves and have-nots
| 393 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:27:12pm |
re: #374 Dark_Falcon
Yeesh! That's very good money.
You just never have any idea what you're talking about, do you
| 394 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:27:17pm |
re: #374 Dark_Falcon
Yeesh! That's very good money.
How much do Doctor's and Laywers make Dark.
Because until the people who raise the next generations of Americans are making that much... I'm a "no sell" on the concept that they're over payed.
| 395 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:27:38pm |
re: #391 WindUpBird
But, shouldn't the good teachers be paid more?
I know, how do you measure that...
| 396 |
schnapp Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:27:41pm |
re: #346 Talking Point Detective
I'd like to hear your explanation for how unions advocating that teachers get good pensions and health care is harmful to anyone else. Earlier in the day you said that unions are harmful to non-union employees in similar jobs. How does unionization of teachers hurt non-unionized teachers?
Because they want to restrict the number of people who become teachers in the first place. That's what a union does. That's how it raises the incomes of its members. And a centralised public school system is much more favourable to the unions than a system with charter schools or any form of school choice where public schools are independently managed and each have control over their own budget, their own staff etc.
And it's not only other workers who are made worse off by unions. It can also be consumers or taxpayers. In this case it's mainly the students. America's standing in education is below that of many other countries in the developed world which have parental choice.
That's my view. If you have a different one, fair enough. I can respect that. No one is going to convince the other so I'll leave it there for today. I've got to get something to eat soon anyway.
| 397 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:27:56pm |
re: #379 moderatelyradicalliberal
Yeah, Dallas is a little blue dot too. It's better than Georgia which has one blue dot, Atlanta.
Quit whining. The Obama campaign recorded 6 donations from my ZIP code. Three of the checks were written at my kitchen table.
| 398 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:28:11pm |
re: #397 Decatur Deb
Quit whining. The Obama campaign recorded 6 donations from my ZIP code. Three of the checks were written at my kitchen table.
Lol
| 399 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:28:32pm |
re: #364 researchok
That's what elections are all about.
The citizens of that state elected him knowing full well his agenda.
That said, I have to agree with you. When he blatantly states concessions and the unions willingness to work with the state are not as important as his busting the union, well, that tells you his real agenda.
The people who voted for him believed his line about being a fiscal conservative.
They did not vote for someone to break unions.
I expect he will loose at minimum the assembly in 2012 and, depending on if a handful of Republican senators grow a backbone or not, very possibly the senate as well. He will, I'll bet $100 for charity right now, be at most a one term governor.
| 400 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:28:40pm |
re: #390 lostlakehiker
Unionized state employees are part of a feedback loop.
How is it different from a 'feedback loop' of any group voting for someone who gives them subsidies, tax breaks, federal funding, etc.?
| 401 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:28:59pm |
re: #393 WindUpBird
You just never have any idea what you're talking about, do you
But, my daddy told me tax brackets worked that way!
| 402 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:29:06pm |
re: #392 daddylawbucks
Oppsie
Now you've stirred memories :D Even I, twiggy fey that I am, did a couple summers worth of hardass work, come to think of it, working in a plant nursery loading trucks and working in the greenhouse (which i think was partially responsible for a UTI I had, whee!) and cutting down blackberry bushes and digging up stumps, whee
| 403 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:29:08pm |
re: #397 Decatur Deb
Quit whining. The Obama campaign recorded 6 donations from my ZIP code. Three of the checks were written at my kitchen table.
I hope they bounced?
//Massive dripping sarc.
| 404 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:29:30pm |
The most relevant fact in all of this is that the teachers' union has been willing to negotiate for weeks, and the governor refuses to negotiate. Consider also that the deficit didn't exist before tax cuts were put in place.
It's sort of dumb to pretend that the governor is acting in good faith here. This is a naked attempt to break up the unions.
Once again, the budget could easily be trimmed by negotiating with teachers, but that isn't Walker's goal. The teacher's union has agreed to offer deep cuts. This has nothing to do with the budget.
| 405 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:29:37pm |
re: #396 schnapp
Because they want to restrict the number of people who become teachers in the first place. That's what a union does. That's how it raises the incomes of its members.
You seriously fucking think that's the only way that unions have to try to get good wages? And that all unions restrict numbers?
Think about it for a fucking second. The more teachers, the more union members. Sheesh.
| 406 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:29:41pm |
re: #384 Floral Giraffe
We've got to try. What we are doing now, is NOT working.
Extensive research has shown that merit pay doesn't work. Think about it. If you have a teacher that performs poorly, do you think that offering to pay them more is going to get them to perform better? Of course not. What will get them to perform better is offering them the training they need to get better.
Besides most merit pay systems measure teacher performance on a simplistic accounting of student test scores - a criterion fraught with problems.
| 407 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:29:46pm |
re: #399 wlewisiii
The people who voted for him believed his line about being a fiscal conservative.
They did not vote for someone to break unions.
I expect he will loose at minimum the assembly in 2012 and, depending on if a handful of Republican senators grow a backbone or not, very possibly the senate as well. He will, I'll bet $100 for charity right now, be at most a one term governor.
If the recall effort goes through, he won't even be that. He and Sarah can share a table as "Half Governors."
| 408 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:29:48pm |
| 409 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:30:01pm |
re: #395 Floral Giraffe
But, shouldn't the good teachers be paid more?
I know, how do you measure that...
Sure, but yeah, how do you
The best teacher in a hideous district might be able to get some kids to pass who wouldn't have before, but they'd be considered a failure because it'd be acres of D report cards
| 410 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:30:03pm |
re: #388 Obdicut
They don't get that money.
That includes sick days, holidays, emergency leave, jury duty, breaks, insurance payments, retirement, workers comp, unemployment insurance, etc., etc. It's TOTAL compensation.
I'm surprised anyone actually thinks that means full compensation.
| 411 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:30:05pm |
re: #400 Obdicut
How is it different from a 'feedback loop' of any group voting for someone who gives them subsidies, tax breaks, federal funding, etc.?
Corporations are people too!
Wait as sec...
Corporations are a lot like unions!
ZOMG!
| 412 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:30:08pm |
| 413 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:30:24pm |
re: #410 Gus 802
That includes sick days, holidays, emergency leave, jury duty, breaks, insurance payments, retirement, workers comp, unemployment insurance, etc., etc. It's TOTAL compensation.
I'm surprised anyone actually thinks that means full compensation.
I'm not.
| 414 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:30:26pm |
It so sucks for the local economy when there are union employees who make a living wage and can spend money in said local economy which keeps other folks employed.
/
| 415 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:30:34pm |
re: #400 Obdicut
How is it different from a 'feedback loop' of any group voting for someone who gives them subsidies, tax breaks, federal funding, etc.?
Because in this case, poor people can do it to!
| 417 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:31:16pm |
re: #390 lostlakehiker
Unionized state employees are part of a feedback loop. Union asks for higher salaries, backs the party that will grant them. Union campaigns for that party, devoting time and money to the effort. Politicians who back the union win. But costs have gone up, so they must raise taxes.
That "feedback loop" is called the democratic process. Do you have a problem with the democratic process?
| 418 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:31:28pm |
re: #395 Floral Giraffe
But, shouldn't the good teachers be paid more?
I know, how do you measure that...
Thunderdome can measure anybody's worth to society.
| 419 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:31:42pm |
re: #402 WindUpBird
Now you've stirred memories :D Even I, twiggy fey that I am, did a couple summers worth of hardass work, come to think of it, working in a plant nursery loading trucks and working in the greenhouse (which i think was partially responsible for a UTI I had, whee!) and cutting down blackberry bushes and digging up stumps, whee
Furry guns!
| 420 |
Lidane Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:31:57pm |
re: #417 Fozzie Bear
That "feedback loop" is called the democratic process. Do you have a problem with the democratic process?
Poor people and public employees can participate?
///
| 421 |
avanti Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:31:58pm |
re: #111 laZardo
It's only a matter of time...
When I was like -400, for my "leftie" opinions, Dark was there for me and I'll stick up for him if he passes that mark, so lay off your BS.
| 422 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:32:03pm |
re: #414 webevintage
It so sucks for the local economy when there are union employees who make a living wage and can spend money in said local economy which keeps other folks employed.
/
You mean to apply trickle down economics theory to union members?
Surely you jest.
| 423 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:32:07pm |
re: #417 Fozzie Bear
That "feedback loop" is called the democratic process. Do you have a problem with the democratic process?
Yeah, only corporations should be able to use money to influence elections!
/
| 424 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:32:10pm |
re: #404 Fozzie Bear
The most relevant fact in all of this is that the teachers' union has been willing to negotiate for weeks, and the governor refuses to negotiate. Consider also that the deficit didn't exist before tax cuts were put in place.
It's sort of dumb to pretend that the governor is acting in good faith here. This is a naked attempt to break up the unions.
Once again, the budget could easily be trimmed by negotiating with teachers, but that isn't Walker's goal. The teacher's union has agreed to offer deep cuts. This has nothing to do with the budget.
| 425 |
compound idaho Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:32:29pm |
re: #348 WindUpBird
This is a lie
unless you consider administrators teachers.
I didn't say the numbers were high, low, good or bad. They are the only numbers I could find.
The table is titled Total Compensation of Teachers. I don't see anything suggesting administrators were included. It appears the use of FTE is to allow an equally weighted average of all teachers across the State. You wouldn't want to simply average large and small districts.
| 426 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:32:46pm |
re: #417 Fozzie Bear
That "feedback loop" is called the democratic process. Do you have a problem with the democratic process?
Only when unions are involved.....
/
| 427 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:32:59pm |
| 428 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33:05pm |
re: #417 Fozzie Bear
That "feedback loop" is called the democratic process. Do you have a problem with the democratic process?
Teacher's unions should start an oil drilling empire like the Koch family. The tea Parties would love them!
| 429 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33:10pm |
re: #407 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
If the recall effort goes through, he won't even be that. He and Sarah can share a table as "Half Governors."
It won't. It's a 24kt bitch to do a recall in Wisconsin. He may pull a sarah and quit if he can't get his way, but I do not think he'll be recalled
| 430 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33:19pm |
re: #404 Fozzie Bear
Once again, the budget could easily be trimmed by negotiating with teachers, but that isn't Walker's goal. The teacher's union has agreed to offer deep cuts. This has nothing to do with the budget.
That's my take.
Before the election it was pretty clear from his campaign statements that Walker was on a Tea Partying ideological campaign, and from what I've seen so far on this issue (of unions) that Walker is acting on his apriori ideology and not acting on a budget emergency.
| 431 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33:24pm |
re: #425 compound idaho
I didn't say the numbers were high, low, good or bad. They are the only numbers I could find.
The table is titled Total Compensation of Teachers. I don't see anything suggesting administrators were included. It appears the use of FTE is to allow an equally weighted average of all teachers across the State. You wouldn't want to simply average large and small districts.
From Gus:
That includes sick days, holidays, emergency leave, jury duty, breaks, insurance payments, retirement, workers comp, unemployment insurance, etc., etc. It's TOTAL compensation.
I'm surprised anyone actually thinks that means full compensation.
| 432 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33:55pm |
re: #430 freetoken
That's my take.
Before the election it was pretty clear from his campaign statements that Walker was on a Tea Partying ideological campaign, and from what I've seen so far on this issue (of unions) that Walker is acting on his apriori ideology and not acting on a budget emergency.
maybe he thinks he's presidential material, that would explain some of the zany grandstanding
| 433 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:34:03pm |
re: #427 jamesfirecat
My daughter is flirting with furrydom. She bought a hat and a tail at Hot Topic.
| 434 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:34:05pm |
| 435 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:34:08pm |
re: #390 lostlakehiker
Unionized state employees are part of a feedback loop. Union asks for higher salaries, backs the party that will grant them. Union campaigns for that party, devoting time and money to the effort. Politicians who back the union win. But costs have gone up, so they must raise taxes.
Now they're in hot water with the voters. But with the dedicated support of their public sector unions, they can win anyhow. Provided they up the pay again.
Rinse and repeat. Sooner or later, this merry-go-round breaks. In Wisconsin, it just broke.
What is it about this debate that just blithely and completely ignores the real little guy, who makes far less and has no prospect of a union and doesn't want to join anyhow, and can't get a beer or a soda without paying sales tax through the nose? And can't drive anywhere without getting hit with a revenue-raising speeding ticket? The whole tone of the talk is that the teachers are the oppressed little people. Maybe in Texas. But not in Wisconsin.
Pubic sector workers making more money pay more in taxes, spend more, buy better houses, pay contractors to fix their houses up. And would you rather have poorer quality teachers teaching your kids?
If you ever spent a day in a classroom teaching, you'd understand that it is a very demanding job, and that paying teachers good salaries to teach our children should be a minimal requirement of a society that aspires to achieve.
| 436 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:34:26pm |
re: #367 Talking Point Detective
Teachers unions have been slow to adopt to changes that will help make the system more accountable. Then again, they are constantly under attack and thus a siege mentality is somewhat understandable. For example, merit pay based on student test scores has shown to be ineffective at multiple levels - and when teachers unions raise valid complaints about such systems the are accused of protecting teachers at the expense of students.
Merit pay, if it's linked to student test scores, must be linked very carefully. Give me an honors class and my students will do better than average even if I just tell them to read the book.
Give me the flip side of that and even my best efforts will be a case of plowing flinty ground. The likely prospects of the students the teacher actually has must be taken into account. And their progress, down the road, in other classes, must also be factored in. Good teaching goes beyond preparing the student for the very next test.
Teachers unions that were willing to bargain on the details of such a means of judging merit could spell the difference between a cynical and useless system that would merely reward suburban teachers and drive good inner city teachers out of the system, and an effective system that would recognize the truly good teachers and reward their efforts.
From all accounts, that's not been the attitude of this state's teachers union. But if I were governor and they offered that as a concession, I'd take them up on it. We'd have common ground: the kids come first.
| 437 |
DaddyLawBucks Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:34:26pm |
re: #390 lostlakehiker
Who exactly are these "little guys"?
Some straw man you made up? Don't all of us benefit from living with an educated workforce? And why do you believe he will get a traffic ticket? Is he a moron who can't drive or did the teachers union conspire against him? Do you think union members are exemept from sales tax? Or do you just not get it, you get what you pay for.....so unless you want to live in a third world hell hole, you gotta educate your kids, and your neighbors kids. And any fascist jackass that tries to make political hay from dismembering the education system (as in by destroying the union) deserves impeachment. Not that I have an opinion.
| 438 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:34:51pm |
| 439 |
Big Joe Ghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:34:54pm |
re: #374 Dark_Falcon
Yeesh! That's very good money.
Where do you live? That's pretty pathetic wage+benefits for somebody in CA to raise a family on. You'd surely be renting an apartment in the seedy parts of town.
| 440 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:34:56pm |
re: #430 freetoken
It really hammers home the ridiculousness of a priori ideologies. I wish more people took logic courses.
| 441 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:34:58pm |
re: #429 wlewisiii
It won't. It's a 24kt bitch to do a recall in Wisconsin. He may pull a sarah and quit if he can't get his way, but I do not think he'll be recalled
One can hope. I remember a lot of talk in the early days about how Gray Davis wouldn't get recalled, that the effort was futile.
Walker sticks to his current course, he may drive enough names to the petition.
| 442 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:35:15pm |
re: #433 prairiefire
My daughter is flirting with furrydom. She bought a hat and a tail at Hot Topic.
Hot Topic used to be where I bought metal t-shirts back in high school, ahh it's all turning anew :D
| 443 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:36:08pm |
re: #439 mracb
He's in Chicago, IIRC.
| 444 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:36:12pm |
University of Wisconsin Total Compensation Estimator
Example: 50K per year with PPO and family coverage.
Annual Cost of Benefits Estimate
Based on expected annual salary of $50,000.00
Annual Employer Cost/Annual Employee Cost
Health Insurance: $28,735.20/$5,652.00
Retirement: $5,700.00/$100.00
Social Security/Medicare: $3,825.00/$2,825.00
Total: $38,260.20/$8,577.00
Estimate of the Value of Your Total Compensation $88,260
| 445 |
Big Joe Ghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:36:13pm |
Gosh, don't run to the bathroom or you'll have to scroll 50 posts to catch back up!!
| 446 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:36:39pm |
re: #440 Fozzie Bear
Walker's actions just seem to me to be out of proportion with the conditions in WI. The budget shortfall there is small, and simple negotiations with state employees could have closed that small amount.
| 447 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:36:41pm |
re: #445 mracb
You WILL survive, BTW.
| 448 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:37:10pm |
re: #444 Gus 802
University of Wisconsin Total Compensation Estimator
Example: 50K per year with PPO and family coverage.
Annual Cost of Benefits Estimate
Based on expected annual salary of $50,000.00
Annual Employer Cost/Annual Employee Cost
Health Insurance: $28,735.20/$5,652.00
Retirement: $5,700.00/$100.00
Social Security/Medicare: $3,825.00/$2,825.00
Total: $38,260.20/$8,577.00
Estimate of the Value of Your Total Compensation $88,260
Exactly. 88k doesn't mean anyone is taking home 88k. It means it costs that much to employ a worker. NOT the same thing.
| 449 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:37:26pm |
re: #445 mracb
Gosh, don't run to the bathroom or you'll have to scroll 50 posts to catch back up!!
When the ball gets rolling around here, it becomes like the Juggernaut: Nothing stops it.
| 450 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:37:31pm |
re: #448 Fozzie Bear
Exactly. 88k doesn't mean anyone is taking home 88k. It means it costs that much to employ a worker. NOT the same thing.
Exactly.
| 451 |
compound idaho Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:37:33pm |
re: #431 WindUpBird
From Gus:
I would agree that this means total compensation. I think numbers of 2 to 2.5 times base salary are typical. I don't think these number look out of line or are a lie.
| 452 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:37:47pm |
re: #396 schnapp
Because they want to restrict the number of people who become teachers in the first place. That's what a union does. That's how it raises the incomes of its members. And a centralised public school system is much more favourable to the unions than a system with charter schools or any form of school choice where public schools are independently managed and each have control over their own budget, their own staff etc.
And it's not only other workers who are made worse off by unions. It can also be consumers or taxpayers. In this case it's mainly the students. America's standing in education is below that of many other countries in the developed world which have parental choice.
That's my view. If you have a different one, fair enough. I can respect that. No one is going to convince the other so I'll leave it there for today. I've got to get something to eat soon anyway.
You've expanded your argument from earlier today, when you said that unions penalize non-union workers.
You are seriously trying to draw a cause and effect line between the competitive weaknesses of American schools and the existence of teachers unions? Really? And you think it's because parents in other countries have more "choice" about where to send their kids to school? Lemme know when you come back, because if you really think that's a valid argument, we need to talk.
| 453 |
Lidane Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:37:52pm |
re: #448 Fozzie Bear
Exactly. 88k doesn't mean anyone is taking home 88k. It means it costs that much to employ a worker. NOT the same thing.
Exactly.
| 454 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:37:55pm |
re: #400 Obdicut
How is it different from a 'feedback loop' of any group voting for someone who gives them subsidies, tax breaks, federal funding, etc.?
Because with this feedback loop, both parties are locked into it. Also, because the loop is there to see, in its consequences, in any number of states. California, for instance.
But big government breeds other such loops. The military-industrial complex, for instance. Republicans don't have clean hands when it comes to feedback loops.
| 455 |
researchok Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:38:02pm |
re: #404 Fozzie Bear
The most relevant fact in all of this is that the teachers' union has been willing to negotiate for weeks, and the governor refuses to negotiate. Consider also that the deficit didn't exist before tax cuts were put in place.
It's sort of dumb to pretend that the governor is acting in good faith here. This is a naked attempt to break up the unions.
Once again, the budget could easily be trimmed by negotiating with teachers, but that isn't Walker's goal. The teacher's union has agreed to offer deep cuts. This has nothing to do with the budget.
That's what bothers me most.
I have no issue with the governor doing his job, being an SOB about it or waving a red pen like a machete. I don't care if me everyone happy or no one happy.
However, when you campaign (rightly so!) on getting the budget under control, slashing costs and eliminating waste and then make an ideological point a priority as opposed to getting the job done, well, to hell with him.
The problems still need to be dealt with, the teachers union won't walk away without deep concessions and the pain will still be felt, but it clear Walker isn't the guy to be at the helm right now.
| 456 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:38:13pm |
re: #397 Decatur Deb
Quit whining. The Obama campaign recorded 6 donations from my ZIP code. Three of the checks were written at my kitchen table.
LOL! OK, I'm done whining.
| 457 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:38:39pm |
re: #446 freetoken
Walker's actions just seem to me to be out of proportion with the conditions in WI. The budget shortfall there is small, and simple negotiations with state employees could have closed that small amount.
This is the GOP plan, nationwide. Cut taxes, then point out the budget shortfall, and push for cuts in services. Repeat endlessly.
It's deliberate.
| 458 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:38:52pm |
re: #446 freetoken
He apparently ran on this platform, and is determined to stick to his guns.
Whatever the cost.
Jerry Brown has eliminated all SWAG for California.
$7 million over 2 years.
[Link: blogs.sacbee.com...]
Why would the DMV give out SWAG?
| 459 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:39:22pm |
re: #451 compound idaho
I would agree that this means total compensation. I think numbers of 2 to 2.5 times base salary are typical. I don't think these number look out of line or are a lie.
2.5 times base salary means...they're making what, 35K a year?
| 461 |
Renaissance_Man Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:40:02pm |
re: #459 WindUpBird
2.5 times base salary means...they're making what, 35K a year?
Shit, hard to imagine they're not in favour of the Flat Tax.
| 462 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:40:43pm |
Hey, Dark falcon? is 35K a year "good money"?
why do I bother
| 463 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:40:47pm |
re: #448 Fozzie Bear
Exactly. 88k doesn't mean anyone is taking home 88k. It means it costs that much to employ a worker. NOT the same thing.
Oh come now, that can't be true! I just saw a teacher pull into the school parking lot yesterday in a Ford Taurus. Couldn't have been more than five years old! Wish I had that kinda money!
///
| 464 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:40:48pm |
re: #449 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
When the ball gets rolling around here, it becomes like the Juggernaut: Nothing stops it.
I'm the lizard blog bitch!
| 465 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:40:54pm |
Yet two more anti-EPA amendments from the GOP...
EPA IZ EVUL!!
| 466 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:41:35pm |
re: #463 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Oh come now, that can't be true! I just saw a teacher pull into the school parking lot yesterday in a Ford Taurus. Couldn't have been more than five years old! Wish I had that kinda money!
///
I think the nicest car a teacher of mine ever had (besides the real estate guy who taught for fun) was a Toyota MR2 :D
| 467 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:42:04pm |
re: #457 Fozzie Bear
This is the GOP plan, nationwide. Cut taxes, then point out the budget shortfall, and push for cuts in services. Repeat endlessly.
It's deliberate.
STARVE THE BEAST!!!DROWN IT IN A BATHTUBE!!!
| 468 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:42:35pm |
re: #436 lostlakehiker
Merit pay, if it's linked to student test scores, must be linked very carefully. Give me an honors class and my students will do better than average even if I just tell them to read the book.
Give me the flip side of that and even my best efforts will be a case of plowing flinty ground. The likely prospects of the students the teacher actually has must be taken into account. And their progress, down the road, in other classes, must also be factored in. Good teaching goes beyond preparing the student for the very next test.
Teachers unions that were willing to bargain on the details of such a means of judging merit could spell the difference between a cynical and useless system that would merely reward suburban teachers and drive good inner city teachers out of the system, and an effective system that would recognize the truly good teachers and reward their efforts.
From all accounts, that's not been the attitude of this state's teachers union. But if I were governor and they offered that as a concession, I'd take them up on it. We'd have common ground: the kids come first.
Teachers unions are increasingly coming on board with educational reform methods. But unfortunately, the issue is being demagogued by zealots and ideologues who have the specific intent of dismantling our public educational system.
Merit pay can work in the sense that it makes sense to pay good teachers more money - but unfortunately, that notion has been turned into a system which doesn't work, a punitive system of punishing teachers based on student test scores, under the guise of creating "accountability."
All in all, IMO, while teachers unions have not been responsive enough to good educational reform, the locus of the problem is not with the teachers unions. The locus of the problem is the clear anti-union focus and intent to dismantle public education that drives much of this debate.
| 469 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:42:39pm |
re: #467 moderatelyradicalliberal
STARVE THE BEAST!!!DROWN IT IN A BATHTUBE!!!
Pathetic beast if it can be drowned in a tub...
///
| 470 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:43:06pm |
re: #373 Renaissance_Man
Are you seriously basing your 'reasoning' on lines of thought like 'I didn't hear that Wisconsin was acting like a miser, thus they must be in fiscal trouble'?
When almost everybody is in fiscal trouble, only the more than averagely prudent escape that trouble. It's hyperbole, but you surely must take my point: spending as though there's no danger seems normal when few see the danger. Not spending freely seems miserly. If Wisconsin didn't have a reputation as miserly, in liberal circles, it must have been spending freely.
Take, for instance, people who win lotteries. All their friends and relatives want a piece of that. And the winners feel like celebrating. As a result, most are in financial trouble a few years down the line, despite having won a substantial pile of dough.
| 471 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:43:26pm |
re: #468 Talking Point Detective
basically, we need a sane GOP for a real debate to take place, and we don't have one now
| 472 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:43:27pm |
How the fuck to people at this site keep track of all the convos going on well enough to read them and respond in a coherent fashion?
| 473 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:43:31pm |
Norquist, you cad. Your dream is coming true. Now excuse me while I open a can of cat food for dinner.
| 474 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:43:36pm |
re: #462 WindUpBird
Hey, Dark falcon? is 35K a year "good money"?
why do I bother
The GOP version results in negative compensation.
| 475 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:43:59pm |
re: #457 Fozzie Bear
This is the GOP plan, nationwide. Cut taxes, then point out the budget shortfall, and push for cuts in services. Repeat endlessly.
It's deliberate.
Yep. They're out there, hard at work, sellin' the ol' GOP snake oil: "Tax Cuts = Economic Growth." Tell folks that the only way they're going to see new jobs is if the big corporations get fat tax cuts rammed through, no questions asked.
Then, when the state treasuries speak up and say that there's now a projected deficit, they run out and tell folks that "entitlement spending" and "union pensions" are to blame and that they need to cut the first and axe the second in order to make ends meet. But don't dare touch those tax cuts, because they'll lead to explosive economic growth...eventually.
| 476 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:44:03pm |
re: #472 Talking Point Detective
How the fuck to people at this site keep track of all the convos going on well enough to read them and respond in a coherent fashion?
Magic.
;)
| 477 |
Big Joe Ghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:44:06pm |
re: #467 moderatelyradicalliberal
STARVE THE BEAST!!!DROWN IT IN A BATHTUBE!!!
Yes because it really costs nothing to maintain roads, parks, prisons, teaching children...
| 478 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:44:24pm |
re: #472 Talking Point Detective
How the fuck to people at this site keep track of all the convos going on well enough to read them and respond in a coherent fashion?
I grew up playing on BBSes basically
I have other conversations on IM going as well :D Also answering emails
| 479 |
blueraven Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:44:34pm |
re: #292 compound idaho
Wisconsin Association of School Boards
[Link: www.wasb.org...]
Average total compensation for teachers in WI $81,390 (2011)
The unions already said they were willing to negotiate on salary/benefits... To take a cut. That is not the main issue for teachers. They are protesting the elimination of collective bargaining, but Walker will not compromise. Is this really about the budget?
| 480 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:45:01pm |
re: #479 blueraven
The unions already said they were willing to negotiate on salary/benefits... To take a cut. That is not the main issue for teachers. They are protesting the elimination of collective bargaining, but Walker will not compromise. Is this really about the budget?
OF COURSE NOT
| 481 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:45:10pm |
re: #473 Fozzie Bear
Norquist, you cad. Your dream is coming true. Now excuse me while I open a can of cat food for dinner.
Cat food? That's pretty fancy. When we are all serfs to the Lords of the Land we will be eating gruel and an occasional rat burger.
| 482 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:45:14pm |
re: #463 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Oh come now, that can't be true! I just saw a teacher pull into the school parking lot yesterday in a Ford Taurus. Couldn't have been more than five years old! Wish I had that kinda money!
///
Nelson: Hey, look how much Skinner makes--$25,000 a year!
(the kids sound impressed)
Bart: (typing into a calculator) Let's see, he's 40 years old, times twenty-five grand...whoa, he's a millionaire!
Children: Wow!
Principal Skinner: I wasn't a principal when I was one!
Milhouse: Plus, in the summer he paints houses.
Milhouse: He's a billionaire!
Children: Wow!
Principal Skinner: If I were a billionaire, why would I be living with my mother?
(the kids laugh)
Principal Skinner: They don't seem to listen to logic anymore.
| 483 |
Renaissance_Man Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:45:47pm |
re: #472 Talking Point Detective
How the fuck to people at this site keep track of all the convos going on well enough to read them and respond in a coherent fashion?
There isn't actually anyone at this site except for you. Most of us here are just sophisticated macros.
And then there are some that aren't so sophisticated.
| 484 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:45:54pm |
re: #462 WindUpBird
It depends on where you live.
35K might be a handsome sum in oh, shoot me, Alabama, but it'd such in California.
| 485 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:46:23pm |
re: #442 WindUpBird
Hot Topic used to be where I bought metal t-shirts back in high school, ahh it's all turning anew :D
When I was in high school, there was no such thing as Hot Topic. When we wanted black clothing with excessive chrome hardware attached to it, we had to either make it ourselves, or buy it from retailers in the UK that we learned about from adverts in the back pages of zines. We usually wore an onion on our belts, which was the style at the time.
(SO GLAD that circumstances prevented me from going to see a GG Allin concert with a lunatic friend of mine back in those days)
| 486 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:46:25pm |
re: #472 Talking Point Detective
How the fuck to people at this site keep track of all the convos going on well enough to read them and respond in a coherent fashion?
PRACTISE.
| 487 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:46:44pm |
re: #478 WindUpBird
I grew up playing on BBSes basically
I have other conversations on IM going as well :D Also answering emails
That would explain your comments on furry foreplay in #396 and #401.
| 488 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:46:45pm |
re: #457 Fozzie Bear
This is the GOP plan, nationwide. Cut taxes, then point out the budget shortfall, and push for cuts in services. Repeat endlessly.
It's deliberate.
Don't forget, part of the plan is also to cut teacher pay and educational funding, and then cut funding even more because schools aren't performing well enough.
| 489 |
Big Joe Ghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:46:48pm |
re: #483 Renaissance_Man
There isn't actually anyone at this site except for you. Most of us here are just sophisticated macros.
And then there are some that aren't so sophisticated.
I'm one of the less sophisticated macros.
| 490 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:46:54pm |
| 491 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:47:00pm |
re: #484 Floral Giraffe
It depends on where you live.
35K might be a handsome sum in oh, shoot me, Alabama, but it'd such in California.
I'm in Portland, it's nowhere near as expensive as California, but it's still not much *_* My friends who make that, they make a living, they have tiny apartments and drive cars that cost three figures ;-)
| 492 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:47:25pm |
re: #475 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yep. They're out there, hard at work, sellin' the ol' GOP snake oil: "Tax Cuts = Economic Growth." Tell folks that the only way they're going to see new jobs is if the big corporations get fat tax cuts rammed through, no questions asked.
Then, when the state treasuries speak up and say that there's now a projected deficit, they run out and tell folks that "entitlement spending" and "union pensions" are to blame and that they need to cut the first and axe the second in order to make ends meet. But don't dare touch those tax cuts, because they'll lead to explosive economic growth...eventually.
Jesus Christ, didn't we just do this shit? I really think people haven't felt enough pain to go back for more of this shit. All of these states with GOP governors and legislatures are doing what Bush and the GOP did from 2000-2006. No matter what happens at the federal level, most of these states will be fucked because of how they regressed politically.
| 493 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:47:35pm |
re: #487 Decatur Deb
That would explain your comments on furry foreplay in #396 and #401.
I'VE BEEN FOUND OUT
| 494 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:47:35pm |
re: #447 Floral Giraffe
You WILL survive, BTW.
As long as s/he knows how to love, I'm sure that s/he will stay alive.
| 495 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:47:42pm |
re: #433 prairiefire
My daughter is flirting with furrydom. She bought a hat and a tail at Hot Topic.
heh.
I bought my son a "Tim the Enchanter" hat for his birthday.
[Link: www.thinkgeek.com...]
It came in the mail today and I'm not sure I don't just want to keep it for myself.
| 496 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:47:55pm |
re: #491 WindUpBird
LOL what does a 3-figure car even look like? Does it even have an engine?
| 497 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:48:15pm |
re: #483 Renaissance_Man
There isn't actually anyone at this site except for you. Most of us here are just sophisticated macros.
And then there are some that aren't so sophisticated.
I actually have all the macro keys on my keyboard set up to argue with the push of a button
| 498 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:48:21pm |
| 499 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:48:33pm |
re: #496 Fozzie Bear
LOL what does a 3-figure car even look like? Does it even have an engine?
Maybe it's a used Yugo?
| 500 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:48:58pm |
re: #496 Fozzie Bear
LOL what does a 3-figure car even look like? Does it even have an engine?
I mean, I had a 3-figure car in the early 90's, but i'm pretty sure you couldn't get anything close to that now for that kind of money. And it wasn't exactly a great car.
| 501 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:49:07pm |
re: #499 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Maybe it's a used Yugo?
Chevy vega? The rustbox, we called it!
| 502 |
Lidane Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:49:11pm |
re: #488 Talking Point Detective
Don't forget, part of the plan is also to cut teacher pay and educational funding, and then cut funding even more because schools aren't performing well enough.
Thus creating a permanently uneducated underclass.
| 503 |
Renaissance_Man Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:49:24pm |
re: #470 lostlakehiker
When almost everybody is in fiscal trouble, only the more than averagely prudent escape that trouble. It's hyperbole, but you surely must take my point: spending as though there's no danger seems normal when few see the danger. Not spending freely seems miserly. If Wisconsin didn't have a reputation as miserly, in liberal circles, it must have been spending freely.
Take, for instance, people who win lotteries. All their friends and relatives want a piece of that. And the winners feel like celebrating. As a result, most are in financial trouble a few years down the line, despite having won a substantial pile of dough.
Run this 'logic' past any ten year old and see if they don't laugh you out of the room. I realise that in the bizarro world of the Conservative cult media, this passes for impeccable critical thinking, but seriously, come on. Have some respect for this audience.
| 504 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:49:46pm |
re: #494 negativ
As long as s/he knows how to love, I'm sure that s/he will stay alive.
And when your dead I will be still alive... still alive....
| 505 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:50:53pm |
re: #502 Lidane
Thus creating a permanently uneducated underclass.
Or, as we like to call them, "Republican voters."
| 506 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:51:02pm |
re: #502 Lidane
Thus creating a permanently uneducated underclass.
But we like to call them Morlocks to save time.
| 507 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:51:24pm |
re: #496 Fozzie Bear
LOL what does a 3-figure car even look like? Does it even have an engine?
I'll show you!
basically a 16 year old white ford escort, runs well, banged up to shit, cost my friend $900. Bought it from a punk musician/contractor who needed to put a new engine in his work truck :D
| 508 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:51:51pm |
re: #468 Talking Point Detective
Teachers unions are increasingly coming on board with educational reform methods. But unfortunately, the issue is being demagogued by zealots and ideologues who have the specific intent of dismantling our public educational system.
Merit pay can work in the sense that it makes sense to pay good teachers more money - but unfortunately, that notion has been turned into a system which doesn't work, a punitive system of punishing teachers based on student test scores, under the guise of creating "accountability."
All in all, IMO, while teachers unions have not been responsive enough to good educational reform, the locus of the problem is not with the teachers unions. The locus of the problem is the clear anti-union focus and intent to dismantle public education that drives much of this debate.
I don't equate teachers unions with public education. I don't see dismantling unions as necessary, and I emphatically don't want public education dismantled. But---take California back when they were going with "whole word" reading instruction. The upshot of that was that the kids, if they did learn to read, did so in spite of their schools, not because of them.
And look at DC, where they just fired the heroic reformer Michelle Rhee. As if DC schools were doing just fine and didn't need any fixing.
Steady as she goes is not a viable policy when it comes to public education. Or world climate, or energy supply, or medicine, or social security&medicare, and on and on. Many sectors have structural defects. We're in pay-me-now or pay-me-later territory all over the place.
| 510 |
Steve Dutch Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:52:24pm |
I don't see how Walker can fail. A handful of undisciplined, self-indulgent idiots showed up with placards comparing Walker to Hitler and one even had a crosshair on him, and that will completely demolish the credibility of all the other demonstrators (not that demonstrations in the U.S. do much more than piss people off, anyway). The Dems can hide out but when people start circulating recall petitions in their districts, some at least will have to come back. Walker is strengthening his own credibility with his base by being able to point to fulfilling a campaign promise. There's talk of a recall against Walker but his opponents didn't have the votes to keep him out of office to begin with, and his supporters are more behind him than ever. The longer State business goes undone, the more antipathy there will be toward the holdout Democrats. All Walker and his supporters have to do is avoid something spectacularly stupid.
| 511 |
DaddyLawBucks Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:52:27pm |
I hate to interrupt this serious discussion but feel compelled to share this joke with you::
Mrs. Fisher comes to visit her son Jacob for dinner. He lives with a
darling female roommate, Rachel.
During the course of the meal, his mother couldn't help but notice how pretty Jacob's roommate was. She had long suspected a more intimate relationship between the two, and now she was even more curious.
Over the course of the evening, while watching the two interact, she started to wonder if in fact there was more between Jacob and his roommate than they were admitting. Reading his mom's thoughts, Jacob volunteered, 'I know what you must be thinking, but I assure you, Rachel
and I are just roommates.'
About a week later, Rachel came to Jacob saying, 'Ever since your mother came to dinner, I've been unable to find the silver sugar bowl. You don't suppose she took it, do you?'
'Well, I doubt it, but I'll email her, just to be sure.' So he sat down
and wrote an email:
'Dear Mama,
I'm not saying that you did take the sugar bowl from my house;
I'm not saying that you did not take it.
But the fact remains that it has been missing ever since you were here for dinner.
Love, Jacob'
Several days later, Jacob received a response email from his Mama which
read:
'Dear Son,
I'm not saying that you do sleep with Rachel,
and I'm not saying that you do not sleep with her.
But the fact remains that if Rachel were sleeping in her own bed, she would have found the sugar bowl by now.
Love, Mama'
Moral: Never lie to your Mama . . . especially if she's Jewish.
| 512 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:52:27pm |
re: #499 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Maybe it's a used Yugo?
It is a 1990's escort with some cosmetic body damage and about 80K miles :D Actually does great for basic transportation, though it's a little squirrely on freeways o_o
| 513 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:52:34pm |
re: #507 WindUpBird
I'll show you!
basically a 16 year old white ford escort, runs well, banged up to shit, cost my friend $900. Bought it from a punk musician/contractor who needed to put a new engine in his work truck :D
*Squints, leans head to the right, then to the left* That's a car?
| 514 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:52:42pm |
| 515 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:52:47pm |
Wow, another anti-EPA amendment by the GOP...
This amendment is in favor of the wonderfulness of coal fly ash.
Yes, really.
COAL ASH IZ GUD 4 U!!!
| 516 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:52:50pm |
| 517 |
avanti Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:53:06pm |
OK, my take on the discussion. We need unions, but they benefit as well as harm. Having said that you don't toss the baby out with the bath water. The union already agreed to pay cuts and may negotiate for more, but eliminating their collective bargaining rights is not the right move.
When unions protect bad teachers for example, they need to be confronted. When there is not enough money in the budgets for big wages increases, they can't expect to get them. On the other hand, when the government cuts taxes just to create a budget crisis, I have a issue.
On the national level, the GOP fought tooth and nail to not increase taxes on the wealthy, now they want to cut back services to the poor and others to cut the deficit.
| 518 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:53:22pm |
The coal company lobbyist surely have been busy in DC lately...
| 519 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:53:31pm |
re: #500 Fozzie Bear
I mean, I had a 3-figure car in the early 90's, but i'm pretty sure you couldn't get anything close to that now for that kind of money. And it wasn't exactly a great car.
Some things are optional, like certain cylinders. If you live on a grade and it's a manual you can get away with a lot in the way of deferred maintenance.
| 520 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:53:37pm |
re: #499 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Maybe it's a used Yugo?
That is what happens when you mix German engineering with Soviet shittiness.
| 521 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:53:38pm |
re: #513 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
*Squints, leans head to the right, then to the left* That's a car?
In Portland, this is what we all drive :) Our town doesn't really do the new car thing so much
| 522 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:53:39pm |
War economy.
Afghanistan war costs were roughly 3.6 billion a month in 2009.
So that's roughly 4 billion to kill 12 poorly dressed hill people with AK-47s a month.
That's also more to cover the budget shortfall in Wisconsin.
| 523 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:53:39pm |
re: #510 SteveDutch
I don't see how Walker can fail. A handful of undisciplined, self-indulgent idiots showed up with placards comparing Walker to Hitler and one even had a crosshair on him, and that will completely demolish the credibility of all the other demonstrators (not that demonstrations in the U.S. do much more than piss people off, anyway). The Dems can hide out but when people start circulating recall petitions in their districts, some at least will have to come back. Walker is strengthening his own credibility with his base by being able to point to fulfilling a campaign promise. There's talk of a recall against Walker but his opponents didn't have the votes to keep him out of office to begin with, and his supporters are more behind him than ever. The longer State business goes undone, the more antipathy there will be toward the holdout Democrats. All Walker and his supporters have to do is avoid something spectacularly stupid.
That's a tall order in politics. :-)
| 524 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:53:42pm |
re: #433 prairiefire
My daughter is flirting with furrydom. She bought a hat and a tail at Hot Topic.
I am SOOOOOO grateful that my son is still only interested in Legos & Bionicles.
| 525 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:53:56pm |
re: #495 webevintage
heh.
I bought my son a "Tim the Enchanter" hat for his birthday.
[Link: www.thinkgeek.com...]
It came in the mail today and I'm not sure I don't just want to keep it for myself.
That thing is hot. "Valhalllllllla!"
| 526 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:53:59pm |
'Nite, all.
Ex-ILGWU, IUE, and a Fed union I don't count because it didn't have the right to strike.
| 527 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:54:12pm |
re: #510 SteveDutch
All Walker and his supporters have to do is avoid something spectacularly stupid.
well Andrew Breitfuck is in town....
| 528 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:54:31pm |
re: #507 WindUpBird
I'll show you!
basically a 16 year old white ford escort, runs well, banged up to shit, cost my friend $900. Bought it from a punk musician/contractor who needed to put a new engine in his work truck :D
But will it get will get three hundred hectares on a single tank of kerosene?
| 529 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:54:43pm |
| 532 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:55:17pm |
re: #520 negativ
That is what happens when you mix German engineering with Soviet shittiness.
That's not a car, that's a cardboard box with wheels.
| 533 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:55:29pm |
re: #510 SteveDutch
"All Walker and his supporters have to do is avoid something spectacularly stupid."
Too late.
| 534 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:55:45pm |
re: #421 avanti
Well, OK, but only because you ask.
Hope you are well?
How's the cars?
| 535 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:55:50pm |
This might be the most poignant trailer for a zombie movie/game I have ever seen.
| 536 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:55:50pm |
| 538 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:56:42pm |
re: #529 goddamnedfrank
As was the style at the time.
It was? What years are we talking about? Maybe I missed something.
| 539 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:56:53pm |
re: #524 wlewisiii
I am SOOO grateful that my son is still only interested in Legos & Bionicles.
Oh come on :/
Your kid could do worse than to hang out at a furry con with my drinking friends who are , in order: a guy who is a codebreaker/engineer contracting for the NSA, a veternarian, a published children's book author and illustrator, half a dozen professional artists, a chemical engineer who has his own DJ night in SF, a music promoter who engineered the sound systems for multiple bay area clubs, oh, and a guy who engineered the infrastrcture by which your 911 calls on a cell phone get to the proper dispatcher.
All of us furries :)
| 540 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:57:00pm |
Twitter:
"Remember when it was a terrible thing to pass bills "in the dead of night"? Republican House just gave Big Oil $53 billion at 9:30pm."
| 541 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:57:03pm |
re: #528 jamesfirecat
But will it get will get three hundred hectares on a single tank of kerosene?
hahahahahahah PUT HER IN H
| 542 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:57:08pm |
re: #509 prairiefire
You wore an onion on your belt??
You see, when you get to a certain age, you can't bust heads like we used to. But we have our ways. One trick is to tell stories that don't go anywhere. Like the time I caught the ferry to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe. So I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. "Gimme five bees for a quarter," you'd say. Now where was I... oh yeah. The important thing was that I had an onion tied to my belt, which was the style at the time. You couldn't get white onions, because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
| 543 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:57:25pm |
re: #274 WindUpBird
Something tells me you also would not have the balls to stand toe to toe with SFZ on your hilarious horseshit
I would take what she said seriously and think about maybe I'm wrong. But after thinking it over, if I thought she'd missed something and that my case was undented, I'd explain it again.
She's an honest debater. So, for that matter, am I. It's not horseshit. It's either a good case, or it's a mistake on my part.
| 544 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:57:25pm |
| 545 |
Lidane Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:57:33pm |
re: #540 webevintage
Twitter:
"Remember when it was a terrible thing to pass bills "in the dead of night"? Republican House just gave Big Oil $53 billion at 9:30pm."
IOKIYAR
| 546 |
researchok Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:57:34pm |
re: #528 jamesfirecat
But will it get will get three hundred hectares on a single tank of kerosene?
Check this out if you are in the market for a car
| 547 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:57:43pm |
re: #524 wlewisiii
Also, i was a lego freak when I was a kid. Nobody knows more about lego sets of the 80's than me ;-)
| 548 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:57:53pm |
re: #540 webevintage
Twitter:
"Remember when it was a terrible thing to pass bills "in the dead of night"? Republican House just gave Big Oil $53 billion at 9:30pm."
Damn, they're on a roll.
Business as usual with the GOP.
| 549 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:58:06pm |
re: #546 researchok
I remember those ads
| 550 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:58:19pm |
re: #540 webevintage
Twitter:
"Remember when it was a terrible thing to pass bills "in the dead of night"? Republican House just gave Big Oil $53 billion at 9:30pm."
Damn those Democrats and their runaway spending!
///
| 551 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:58:29pm |
re: #544 jamesfirecat
Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel...
MORGANVILLE! WHICH WAS WHAT THEY CALLED SHELBYVILLE BACK THEN
| 552 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:58:35pm |
re: #512 WindUpBird
LOL! I bet it's a rusty, but trusty!
Hope it holds up!
| 553 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:58:44pm |
re: #524 wlewisiii
I am SOOO grateful that my son is still only interested in Legos & Bionicles.
He could be out LARPing this weekend building a bridge for the big "bridge battle".
Of course mine is almost *sob* 19.....
| 554 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:58:44pm |
| 555 |
researchok Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:58:49pm |
| 556 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:58:49pm |
re: #510 SteveDutch
I don't see how Walker can fail. A handful of undisciplined, self-indulgent idiots showed up with placards comparing Walker to Hitler and one even had a crosshair on him, and that will completely demolish the credibility of all the other demonstrators (not that demonstrations in the U.S. do much more than piss people off, anyway). The Dems can hide out but when people start circulating recall petitions in their districts, some at least will have to come back. Walker is strengthening his own credibility with his base by being able to point to fulfilling a campaign promise. There's talk of a recall against Walker but his opponents didn't have the votes to keep him out of office to begin with, and his supporters are more behind him than ever. The longer State business goes undone, the more antipathy there will be toward the holdout Democrats. All Walker and his supporters have to do is avoid something spectacularly stupid.
This worked out quite well for the Tea Partiers, actually. And this came in from a local reporter on Twitter about the Wisconsin Assembly
[Link: twitter.com...]
@news3jessica Jessica Arp
Before adjourning, Republicans rescinded their vote to go to final passage, making the bill now amendable again.
Might be working for the union protesters as well. Looks like somebody is getting nervous.
| 558 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:59:15pm |
re: #520 negativ
That is what happens when you mix German engineering with Soviet shittiness.
Actually the real world equivalent of that is the Kiev camera. After WWII the russians took the Contax camera factory back to Kiev and renamed it the Kiev. Imagine a german camera made by the soviets... Until the germans who had been forced to move to Kiev died/retired, it actually worked because in their pride the had to do the best they could out of pride. But after that? Complex machines made with soviet QC? A very scary mess indeed. Almost as bad as GOP accounting...
| 559 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:59:39pm |
re: #497 WindUpBird
I actually have all the macro keys on my keyboard set up to argue with the push of a button
Was your previous post an F1A, or and F1B?
| 560 |
avanti Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:59:59pm |
re: #534 Floral Giraffe
Well, OK, but only because you ask.
Hope you are well?
How's the cars?
Just bought a trailer load of "Plain Janes":
| 561 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:00:06pm |
re: #542 negativ
You see, when you get to a certain age, you can't bust heads like we used to. But we have our ways. One trick is to tell stories that don't go anywhere. Like the time I caught the ferry to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe. So I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. "Gimme five bees for a quarter," you'd say. Now where was I... oh yeah. The important thing was that I had an onion tied to my belt, which was the style at the time. You couldn't get white onions, because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
You bastard you spoiled the entire joke! We were only halfway through that we could have been passing lines back and forth for half an hour!
| 562 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:00:10pm |
re: #552 Floral Giraffe
LOL! I bet it's a rusty, but trusty!
Hope it holds up!
it's not my car, I have a VW GTI ^^ But yeah, seems to be holding up great
| 563 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:00:30pm |
re: #559 Talking Point Detective
Was your previous post an F1A, or and F1B?
It was a G3 on my Logitech G19
| 564 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:00:35pm |
re: #521 WindUpBird
Why should ANYONE do the "new car thing", when that puppy drops 25 percent off it's value as it's being driven off the lot? Hello, lease return under warranty?
| 565 |
hexag1 Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:00:38pm |
Sorry Charles, I can't join you in your solidarity with the teacher's unions. I have no problem with unions, until they are organizing for public sector jobs. The conflict there is just too great in my opinion. Those jobs are there to serve the populace at large and not the employees. Thumbs down.
| 566 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:00:47pm |
| 567 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:01:00pm |
This must be it...
Lucrative Gulf of Mexico drilling loophole survives challenge in U.S. House
On a mostly party-line vote, The House Friday night rejected a Democratic amendment that would have corrected a 1995 mistake in drilling rules that allowed oil and gas companies to drill in portions of the Gulf of Mexico without paying royalties.
The amendment would have saved $1.5 billion in 2011, and $53 billion over the next 25 years, according to the measure's Democratic sponsors. The windfall is a result of a mistake made by the Clinton administration's oil and gas regulators in 1995, which Congress has been unwilling to change, despite several attempts over the 16 years.
But Republicans, led by Louisiana members, including Reps Steve Scalise, R-Jefferson; and Jeff Landry, R-New Iberia, said the Democratic plan would have caused more pain for an industry already suffering from what they described as the federal government's de-facto moratorium on off-shore drilling since last year's BP spill disaster.
Continues.
| 569 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:01:27pm |
More freebies for big oil.
Won't survive the Senate.
USA! USA! USA!
| 570 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:01:33pm |
re: #564 Floral Giraffe
Why should ANYONE do the "new car thing", when that puppy drops 25 percent off it's value as it's being driven off the lot? Hello, lease return under warranty?
Aforementioned veternarian friend does, but he has A) a ton of money and B) a twin turbo BMW that will be a bitch to repair off warranty
| 571 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:01:49pm |
re: #538 prairiefire
It was? What years are we talking about? Maybe I missed something.
Once upon a time, in a land far, far waway...
LOL!
| 572 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:02:12pm |
re: #565 hexag1
Sorry Charles, I can't join you in your solidarity with the teacher's unions. I have no problem with unions, until they are organizing for public sector jobs. The conflict there is just too great in my opinion. Those jobs are there to serve the populace at large and not the employees. Thumbs down.
another one!
Is this a talking point, the private sector unions versus, not public sector unions thing?
| 574 |
blueraven Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:02:54pm |
re: #508 lostlakehiker
And look at DC, where they just fired the heroic reformer Michelle Rhee. As if DC schools were doing just fine and didn't need any fixing.
Michelle Rhee resigned when Mayor Adrian Fenty lost as his re-election bid for mayor of DC. Please get your facts straight.
| 575 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:02:55pm |
re: #437 daddylawbucks
Who exactly are these "little guys"?
Some straw man you made up? Don't all of us benefit from living with an educated workforce? And why do you believe he will get a traffic ticket? Is he a moron who can't drive or did the teachers union conspire against him? Do you think union members are exemept from sales tax? Or do you just not get it, you get what you pay for...so unless you want to live in a third world hell hole, you gotta educate your kids, and your neighbors kids. And any fascist jackass that tries to make political hay from dismembering the education system (as in by destroying the union) deserves impeachment. Not that I have an opinion.
I don't WANT the public education system dismembered. But right now it's kind of dysfunctional. It needs reform, and unions are part of the problem.
| 576 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:02:57pm |
re: #565 hexag1
Sorry Charles, I can't join you in your solidarity with the teacher's unions. I have no problem with unions, until they are organizing for public sector jobs. The conflict there is just too great in my opinion. Those jobs are there to serve the populace at large and not the employees. Thumbs down.
People should work for free! Get back to your oars sluggard! Master won't take kindly to teachers who dare complain about their 120 hour work week!
| 577 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:03:14pm |
re: #560 avanti
WOOT
Look forward to seeing the finished results.
What fun!
| 578 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:03:16pm |
re: #539 WindUpBird
Oh come on :/
Your kid could do worse than to hang out at a furry con with my drinking friends who are , in order: a guy who is a codebreaker/engineer contracting for the NSA, a veternarian, a published children's book author and illustrator, half a dozen professional artists, a chemical engineer who has his own DJ night in SF, a music promoter who engineered the sound systems for multiple bay area clubs, oh, and a guy who engineered the infrastrcture by which your 911 calls on a cell phone get to the proper dispatcher.
All of us furries :)
Dude, I'm into Traveller. Seriously into it. Since before Star Wars came out. I know SF, I know Trek, I know furries. I know others that make THEM look good. The longer I can keep him away, the better for my blood pressure...
// well, only about half as he's only 9 right now.
| 579 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:03:35pm |
re: #574 blueraven
Michelle Rhee resigned when Mayor Adrian Fenty lost as his re-election bid for mayor of DC. Please get your facts straight.
I think these "facts" are coming from blogs
| 580 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:03:36pm |
re: #569 Gus 802
More freebies for big oil.
Won't survive the Senate.
USA! USA! USA!
I've never felt so happy to know that the senate was the place that bills went to die (sniff) bi-cameral legisltaion truly is a beatiful thing when its screwing over the people you don't like isn't it?
| 581 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:03:36pm |
Anti-abortion...
Big oil...
Anti-EPA...
Anti-gay...
Anti-union...
The GOP is back in town.
| 582 |
jaunte Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:04:20pm |
re: #565 hexag1
Sorry Charles, I can't join you in your solidarity with the teacher's unions. I have no problem with unions, until they are organizing for public sector jobs. The conflict there is just too great in my opinion. Those jobs are there to serve the populace at large and not the employees. Thumbs down.
Why would you exempt local police and fire departments and the Wisc. state patrol?
| 583 |
avanti Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:04:26pm |
re: #568 jaunte
That looks like a nice pickup on the back.
They are all in decent shape, the pickup will probably bring the most money. Every Studebaker owner needs a pickup.
| 584 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:04:27pm |
| 585 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:04:30pm |
re: #581 Gus 802
Anti-abortion...
Big oil...
Anti-EPA...
Anti-gay...
Anti-union...The GOP is back in town.
However did we survive without them all those...4 years?
/
| 586 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:04:38pm |
BTW it was pie night.
I made a lovely crust, cooked it, then filled it with a layer of cream cheese/cherries/sugar then topped that with a layer of choc pudding (the cooked kind, not instant) then added more cherries to the top and into the fridge it went.
I am now eating some with whip cream on top.
| 587 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:04:40pm |
re: #565 hexag1
Sorry Charles, I can't join you in your solidarity with the teacher's unions. I have no problem with unions, until they are organizing for public sector jobs. The conflict there is just too great in my opinion. Those jobs are there to serve the populace at large and not the employees. Thumbs down.
Here we have yet another victim of the "divide and conquer" strategy.
| 588 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:05:04pm |
re: #517 avanti
OK, my take on the discussion. We need unions, but they benefit as well as harm. Having said that you don't toss the baby out with the bath water. The union already agreed to pay cuts and may negotiate for more, but eliminating their collective bargaining rights is not the right move.
When unions protect bad teachers for example, they need to be confronted. When there is not enough money in the budgets for big wages increases, they can't expect to get them. On the other hand, when the government cuts taxes just to create a budget crisis, I have a issue.
On the national level, the GOP fought tooth and nail to not increase taxes on the wealthy, now they want to cut back services to the poor and others to cut the deficit.
This. And it's only the beginning. They haven't gone after Medicaid, Social Security and Medicare yet. When most Americans realize that only they are making sacrifices to balance budgets and the rich got more tax cuts, the protest from the TPers will look like, well a tea party in comparison. The GOP is going after low hanging fruit, if they win on this they will go after more.
| 589 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:05:05pm |
re: #560 avanti
Just bought a trailer load of "Plain Janes":
Fun times, dude. You are going to be busy.
| 590 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:05:13pm |
re: #482 jamesfirecat
Nelson: Hey, look how much Skinner makes--$25,000 a year!
(the kids sound impressed)
Bart: (typing into a calculator) Let's see, he's 40 years old, times twenty-five grand...whoa, he's a millionaire!
Children: Wow!
Principal Skinner: I wasn't a principal when I was one!
Nelson: Plus, in the summer he paints houses.
Milhouse: He's a billionaire!
Children: Wow!
Principal Skinner: If I were a billionaire, why would I be living with my mother?
(the kids laugh)
Principal Skinner: They don't seem to listen to logic anymore.
Slight edit for accuracy.
| 591 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:05:23pm |
re: #574 blueraven
Michelle Rhee resigned when Mayor Adrian Fenty lost as his re-election bid for mayor of DC. Please get your facts straight.
LostLakeHiker is an honest debater who just happens to get his facts wrong constantly, all in a manner supporting his political philosophy.
It's downright spooky!
Whether it's bullshitting about total compensation packages or claiming someone got fired or resigned, he just has this knack for saying the half truth, or the falsehood, that would make his point of view stronger.
I think Discovery is going to do a show about it.
| 592 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:05:37pm |
re: #586 webevintage
BTW it was pie night.
I made a lovely crust, cooked it, then filled it with a layer of cream cheese/cherries/sugar then topped that with a layer of choc pudding (the cooked kind, not instant) then added more cherries to the top and into the fridge it went.
I am now eating some with whip cream on top.
What is your recipe for cooked pudding, madame?
| 593 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:05:58pm |
| 594 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:06:04pm |
re: #578 wlewisiii
Dude, I'm into Traveller. Seriously into it. Since before Star Wars came out. I know SF, I know Trek, I know furries. I know others that make THEM look good. The longer I can keep him away, the better for my blood pressure...
// well, only about half as he's only 9 right now.
Oh Vargr! hahaha okay fair enough, I'm just saying ;-) Furry for me is a better scene than most fandoms because it's do-it-yourself, it's bottom up creativity. You make your own content, as opposed to responding to a corporation's content.
As for traveller, bet you didn't know a band did...
| 595 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:06:14pm |
re: #565 hexag1
Sorry Charles, I can't join you in your solidarity with the corporations. I have no problem with corporations, until they are organizing for political parties. The conflict there is just too great in my opinion. Those corporations are there to serve the populace at large and not the politicians. Thumbs down.
Gee.
Look what I did there.
;)
| 596 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:06:30pm |
re: #575 lostlakehiker
I don't WANT the public education system dismembered. But right now it's kind of dysfunctional. It needs reform, and unions are part of the problem.
Unions are less a part of the problem than people who demagogue the problems of our schools or those who have the specific aim of dismantling public education.
| 597 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:06:45pm |
re: #591 Obdicut
LostLakeHiker is an honest debater who just happens to get his facts wrong constantly, all in a manner supporting his political philosophy.
this
| 598 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:07:04pm |
re: #585 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
However did we survive without them all those...4 years?
/
However did anyone forget them in just....4years?
| 599 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:07:19pm |
| 600 |
Big Joe Ghazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:07:36pm |
I looked this up, it's 'Average Teachers Salaries by State'...
[Link: teacherportal.com...]
it's $46k for Wisconsin
| 601 |
Kronocide Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:07:39pm |
Hard to believe I've not seen this developing story here:
U.S. TO SELL OFF UNDERPERFORMING STATES
Yielding to economic pressure, the U.S. will sell off 11 underperforming states by the end of the year, the White House announced today.
The surprise sale is a concession to Republicans, who have long demanded the government be run more like a business. Each of the states chosen annually receive more federal money than they collect in taxes, giving them a negative return-on-investment “that no corporation would tolerate,” said White House economic advisor Austan Goolsbee.
The worst-performing 11 states include America’s largest (Alaska), its poorest (Mississippi), and its least interesting (North Dakota). The others are New Mexico, Louisiana, West Virginia, Alabama, South Dakota, Virginia, Kentucky, and Montana.
| 602 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:07:45pm |
| 603 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:07:49pm |
re: #594 WindUpBird
Oh Vargr! hahaha okay fair enough, I'm just saying ;-) Furry for me is a better scene than most fandoms because it's do-it-yourself, it's bottom up creativity. You make your own content, as opposed to responding to a corporation's content.
As for traveller, bet you didn't know a band did...
It gets quoted from time to time on TML but really it's not that highly thought of except by the serious metal heads. Still they do know their Traveller Canon.
| 604 |
avanti Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:07:51pm |
| 605 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:08:16pm |
re: #588 moderatelyradicalliberal
This. And it's only the beginning. They haven't gone after Medicaid, Social Security and Medicare yet. When most Americans realize that only they are making sacrifices to balance budgets and the rich got more tax cuts, the protest from the TPers will look like, well a tea party in comparison. The GOP is going after low hanging fruit, if they win on this they will go after more.
Nah, if there's one thing the GOP won't do, it's piss off their quickly-reaching-retirement, Boomer voter base. They won't touch Medicare or Social Security, at least not in any meaningful way. They just got back the majority, they're not going to piss it away on something stupid like actually following through on campaign promises.
| 606 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:08:30pm |
re: #604 avanti
Nope, just a bread and butter Lark 2 door sedan.
I like the pickup.
In general, how much would that go for?
| 607 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:08:47pm |
re: #585 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
However did we survive without them all those...4 years?
/
I was at least expecting more nuance from the GOP. Instead we're getting nothing but bulk bullshit reminiscent of the 1980s. They're still the party of big oil and theocons. Nothing has changed.
| 608 |
researchok Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:08:47pm |
re: #587 Fozzie Bear
Here we have yet another victim of the "divide and conquer" strategy.
Or, someone who simply doesn't understand what it is he is seeing
| 609 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:09:12pm |
| 610 |
tnguitarist Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:09:21pm |
This fight against unions goes back to the beginning of the industrial age in this country. Keep in mind why unions are formed: to protect workers. My wife is a teacher and a proud union member.
| 611 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:09:23pm |
| 612 |
avanti Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:09:32pm |
| 614 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:10:17pm |
re: #606 Varek Raith
I like the pickup.
In general, how much would that go for?
Before or after restoration?
It's a cool vehicle.
| 615 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:10:48pm |
re: #613 Gus 802
Still ticking...
[Link: costofwar.com...]
When's it going to stop?
When they run out of oil to fight over....
| 616 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:10:50pm |
re: #603 wlewisiii
It gets quoted from time to time on TML but really it's not that highly thought of except by the serious metal heads. Still they do know their Traveller Canon.
Slough Feg is an acquired taste, they sorta sound like Thin Lizzy mooshed together with Megadeth, so yeah, only metalheads will really be into it, everyone else will just be "uhh what"
I saw them in Portland with The Sword, they really are a hell of a live band, their drummer has iron feet for all those double kick patterns
| 617 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:10:50pm |
re: #608 researchok
Or, someone who simply doesn't understand what it is he is seeing
That's kind of what I meant, really. People are being sold all kinds of false divides. Public vs private sector, black vs white, Urban vs rural, etc. This is all in service of an effort to keep people from acting collectively in their own interests.
People who are busy fighting each other aren't going to be as capable of seeing who is fucking them.
| 618 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:10:56pm |
re: #605 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Nah, if there's one thing the GOP won't do, it's piss off their quickly-reaching-retirement, Boomer voter base. They won't touch Medicare or Social Security, at least not in any meaningful way. They just got back the majority, they're not going to piss it away on something stupid like actually following through on campaign promises.
Your right, I forgot they are fiscal frauds. Old white people are their base and they would never harm them in anyway. This is about fucking the Democrat's base.
| 619 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:11:04pm |
re: #610 tnguitarist
This fight against unions goes back to the beginning of the industrial age in this country. Keep in mind why unions are formed: to protect workers. My wife is a teacher and a proud union member.
yes
| 620 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:11:24pm |
re: #607 Gus 802
I was at least expecting more nuance from the GOP. Instead we're getting nothing but bulk bullshit reminiscent of the 1980s. They're still the party of big oil and theocons. Nothing has changed.
Not to mention they've all but unearthed the Gipper's corpse and put him on display, ala Lenin.
| 621 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:11:50pm |
re: #615 jamesfirecat
When they run out of oil to fight over...
Yeah but they make money out of the gadgets they sell. You know. Multi-million dollar drones to kill some guy with sandals and an AK-47.
| 622 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:12:04pm |
re: #609 prairiefire
And stir. ; 0 )
at least I used the Jello pudding that needs to be cooked...instant is just gross.
I go back and forth with "homemade" cooking.
I made the mistake a month or so ago of making my own hamburger buns (rolls eyes) and now we no longer buy buns at the store. Which is fine when I feel like baking, but the men at my house are a bit spoiled.
| 623 |
Querent Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:12:16pm |
re: #238 reine.de.tout
I think i've said before that sometimes it's amazing to me to see which Lizards who were ol' timers when i hatched have left for other swamps and which Lizards are still here.
I think i've also said before that i have been known to give out updings for comments that i might not entirely agree with.
So Reine, if you're still logged on by the time i get done reading all these comments, i'd be delighted to explain my rationale in more detail. The other two updingers are on their own.
| 624 |
Obdicut Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:12:38pm |
re: #617 Fozzie Bear
A worker is a worker.
I've worked for corporations with bureaucracies so byzantine they make the IRS and the DMV look like spas.
It's all just people and collections of people. There's nothing magically different about government.
| 625 |
avanti Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:12:59pm |
re: #614 Floral Giraffe
Before or after restoration?
It's a cool vehicle.
I won't restore that one, it's a nice driver as-is.
| 626 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:13:17pm |
re: #610 tnguitarist
This fight against unions goes back to the beginning of the industrial age in this country. Keep in mind why unions are formed: to protect workers. My wife is a teacher and a proud union member.
The TPers keep saying they want to "Take America Back." I've finally come to the conclusion that they mean "Take America Back...to the 18th Century."
| 627 |
tnguitarist Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:13:27pm |
OT: Bonnaroo lineup was announced......who needs to camp at my place?
| 628 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:13:45pm |
re: #616 WindUpBird
Slough Feg is an acquired taste, they sorta sound like Thin Lizzy mooshed together with Megadeth, so yeah, only metalheads will really be into it, everyone else will just be "uhh what"
I saw them in Portland with The Sword, they really are a hell of a live band, their drummer has iron feet for all those double kick patterns
It really wouldn't surprise me if they were much better live.
Now if Boiled In Lead would do something like that album, I'd be impressed.
| 629 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:13:58pm |
re: #624 Obdicut
A worker is a worker.
I've worked for corporations with bureaucracies so byzantine they make the IRS and the DMV look like spas.
It's all just people and collections of people. There's nothing magically different about government.
Especially, the likelihood of getting a new boss who's an asshole.
| 630 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:14:03pm |
re: #624 Obdicut
A worker is a worker.
I've worked for corporations with bureaucracies so byzantine they make the IRS and the DMV look like spas.
It's all just people and collections of people. There's nothing magically different about government.
Exactly. I'm convinced this is a deliberate strategy.
| 631 |
avanti Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:14:12pm |
| 632 |
Lidane Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:14:24pm |
re: #607 Gus 802
I was at least expecting more nuance from the GOP. Instead we're getting nothing but bulk bullshit reminiscent of the 1980s. They're still the party of big oil and theocons. Nothing has changed.
That's because they haven't had an original idea since at least the 1980's, and the people they're aiming for haven't adjusted to life after the Cold War.
| 633 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:14:42pm |
re: #620 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Not to mention they've all but unearthed the Gipper's corpse and put him on display, ala Lenin.
Zombie Reagen Eat Brains, but Zombie Reagen Can't Swallow this Injustice!
| 634 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:15:28pm |
re: #633 jamesfirecat
Zombie Reagen Eat Brains, but Zombie Reagen Can't Swallow this Injustice!
Isn't necromancy...unChristian?!?!?
| 635 |
simoom Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:15:30pm |
re: #294 Gus 802
Scott Walker is going to get a rally headlined by Jim "Dim" Hoft and Andrew Breitbart!
Well that just about guarantees a new BigGoverment scandal video by Monday morning. Any predictions on which familiar Breitbart trope will be pulled from his Drudge-bait grab-bag?
"EXCLUSIVE VIDEO: Random Union Protester Says Outrageous Thing!""Racist Union THUGS assault Tea Party Patriot!"
"Wait a second... over there... is that... could it be... [pick one: ACORN / NBP / Muslim Brotherhood]!?"
| 636 |
Firstinla Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:15:51pm |
re: #626 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Oh, I think their intention is to take us farther back than that...
| 637 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:16:05pm |
Any day now I can start getting senior discount in many places. I can also get an AARP card!
[groan]
| 638 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:16:15pm |
re: #508 lostlakehiker
I don't equate teachers unions with public education. I don't see dismantling unions as necessary, and I emphatically don't want public education dismantled. But---take California back when they were going with "whole word" reading instruction. The upshot of that was that the kids, if they did learn to read, did so in spite of their schools, not because of them.
And look at DC, where they just fired the heroic reformer Michelle Rhee. As if DC schools were doing just fine and didn't need any fixing.
Steady as she goes is not a viable policy when it comes to public education. Or world climate, or energy supply, or medicine, or social security&medicare, and on and on. Many sectors have structural defects. We're in pay-me-now or pay-me-later territory all over the place.
What, were you a "hooked on phonics" guy? Seriously, unless you've taught reading and studied the subject, you should stay out of the debate about pedagogy. If you do want to talk about methodologies for teaching reading, we can discuss why a simple phonics-based approach is not optimally effective. Your comment seems to reflect that you haven't got a clue on the subject, but I'm willing to give it a shot.
| 639 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:17:25pm |
re: #515 freetoken
Wow, another anti-EPA amendment by the GOP...
This amendment is in favor of the wonderfulness of coal fly ash.
Yes, really.
COAL ASH IZ GUD 4 U!!!
See, this is why I don't have cable. I bought a 40" Sony LCD four years ago, and if I watched this shit I would have heaved a brick through it by now.
I'm an ER coordinator, a first responder. I deal with the silliness of lax laws on polluters every fucking day. The EPA is trying desperately to maintain balance between business activities and public health. The gaspers are are all extractive industries that don't want their ox gored. Because of the Bush policies (ie: stifling EPA's request to regulate greenhouse gas output) the Obama Admin are seen as the bad guy. I see Lisa Jackson's EPA as just returning to some semblance of balance.
I mean, do you want a bunch of young earth creationists setting policy for contaminants and public health policy?
Really?
| 640 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:17:33pm |
re: #637 Gus 802
Any day now I can start getting senior discount in many places. I can also get an AARP card!
[groan]
Uh-uh, no way! Off to the tar pits with you, old-timer!
/
| 641 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:17:49pm |
re: #635 simoom
Well that just about guarantees a new BigGoverment scandal video by Monday morning. Any predictions on which familiar Breitbart trope will be pulled from his Drudge-bait grab-bag?
I'm sure the police will try and keep them well separated. I hope the pro-union crowds maintain calm because they will be trying to instigate one another.
| 642 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:17:59pm |
| 643 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:18:19pm |
re: #640 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Uh-uh, no way! Off to the tar pits with you, old-timer!
/
You are obsolete!
Obsolete!
| 644 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:18:26pm |
re: #635 simoom
Well that just about guarantees a new BigGoverment scandal video by Monday morning. Any predictions on which familiar Breitbart trope will be pulled from his Drudge-bait grab-bag?
This absolutely will happen. I guarantee there will be an attempt by Fox to demonize the protesters, if there hasn't already been. It's always in the script.
The patterns are becoming so obvious lately. With each wingnut putsch, it becomes clearer.
| 645 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:20:10pm |
Scott Walker is using Alinsky tactics!
13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.
In this case it's the usual teachers unions scapegoating.
| 646 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:20:29pm |
re: #641 Gus 802
I'm sure the police will try and keep them well separated. I hope the pro-union crowds maintain calm because they will be trying to instigate one another.
Isn't it amazing what the left had to fear that the right doesn't. Where the TPers ever worried about not instigating anybody? They showed up with visible guns for goodness sake.
| 647 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:21:05pm |
| 648 |
Varek Raith Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:21:44pm |
re: #637 Gus 802
Any day now I can start getting senior discount in many places. I can also get an AARP card!
[groan]
Farnsworth: "53 years old?! Aww, now I'll need a fake ID to rent ultra-porn."
| 649 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:21:59pm |
re: #644 Fozzie Bear
This absolutely will happen. I guarantee there will be an attempt by Fox to demonize the protesters, if there hasn't already been. It's always in the script.
The patterns are becoming so obvious lately. With each wingnut putsch, it becomes clearer.
They're already pushing photos of Walker-as-Hitler signs hard. It's going to be nasty.
| 650 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:22:06pm |
re: #645 Gus 802
Scott Walker is using Alinsky tactics!
13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.
In this case it's the usual teachers unions scapegoating.
Are we sure Alinsky was a left-winger? Because the only people who seem to have read this guys book are right-wingers, and boy do they have these rules down pat.
| 651 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:22:29pm |
Good night, all.
Be well.
Avanti, nice to have you back around,
sleep tight, those who have trouble sleeping.
Sir.
| 652 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:23:07pm |
re: #649 Talking Point Detective
They're already pushing photos of Walker-as-Hitler signs hard. It's going to be nasty.
Well it didn't turn of the so-called independent voters when the TPers did the same things. I'm just sayin'.
| 653 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:23:25pm |
re: #622 webevintage
The thing about pudding, milk is too expensive to waste and no one ever finishes the pudding. So , I don't make it any more. They have the occasional hunts snack pack.
| 654 |
simoom Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:23:58pm |
re: #644 Fozzie Bear
This absolutely will happen. I guarantee there will be an attempt by Fox to demonize the protesters, if there hasn't already been. It's always in the script.
Yup, check out the video I posted up-thread, they do seem to be laying the groundwork:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
FNC Anchor: Jeff, does it seem that the people are getting more and more aggressive, because I know we have an assembly tomorrow of supporters of Governor Walker and I fear that there might be some conflict there.
| 655 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:24:11pm |
re: #652 moderatelyradicalliberal
Well it didn't turn of the so-called independent voters when the TPers did the same things. I'm just sayin'.
I think we've seen enough Obama with a Hitler mustache to last a lifetime over the last two years.
| 656 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:24:27pm |
re: #558 wlewisiii
Actually the real world equivalent of that is the Kiev camera. After WWII the russians took the Contax camera factory back to Kiev and renamed it the Kiev. Imagine a german camera made by the soviets... Until the germans who had been forced to move to Kiev died/retired, it actually worked because in their pride the had to do the best they could out of pride. But after that? Complex machines made with soviet QC? A very scary mess indeed. Almost as bad as GOP accounting...
There are those who collect and/or appreciate Soviet cameras. Some of the Leica knock-offs are actually quite good in their own way. I have half a dozen Chinese Holga cameras, the most expensive of which was $10. The thing that makes them wonderful is that they are horribly inconsistent plastic toy cameras that use 120 film. If cameras were cars, the Holga would be a thoroughly dented and partially rusted 1976 El Camino with torn and mildewed upholstery, powered by the warp core of the USS Enterprise NCC-1701D.
Among my top 5 serious regrets is the fact that I discovered darkroom photography only about 5 years before technology made it economical infeasible. That might seem like a long time, but I am pretty sure that it requires something like 10 to 12 years of experience before you can legitimately claim to know what you're doing.
| 657 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:25:44pm |
re: #654 simoom
Yup, check out the video I posted up-thread, they do seem to be laying the groundwork:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
What a joke. Fox News (News Corpse) helped finance Walker's campaign.
| 658 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:26:30pm |
re: #646 moderatelyradicalliberal
Isn't it amazing what the left had to fear that the right doesn't. Where the TPers ever worried about not instigating anybody? They showed up with visible guns for goodness sake.
As I said yesterday, I'd do the same but it would scare the people I'm supporting even more than those like Scooter. Ah, it would be fun to go with my Marlin XS7 on one shoulder and my Nikon F2 on the other and a S&W 64 on my hip, but that's probably not too wise overall. Still ... And perhaps a sign saying:
Lincoln Brigade (Version 2.0) signup here!
| 659 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:27:29pm |
re: #656 negativ
If cameras were cars, the Holga would be a thoroughly dented and partially rusted 1976 El Camino with torn and mildewed upholstery, powered by the warp core of the USS Enterprise NCC-1701D.
That is the perfect description of most soviet technology. Amazingly well crafted technology at the core, and wrapped in cheaply-made shit.
| 660 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:27:29pm |
re: #654 simoom
Yup, check out the video I posted up-thread, they do seem to be laying the groundwork:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Anybody watching FOX news is probably already on Walker and the TPers side. They are already clutching their pearls over the unions daring the protest in the first place.
| 661 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:27:33pm |
re: #657 Gus 802
What a joke. Fox News (News Corpse) helped finance Walker's campaign.
I'm honestly beginning to think that Robin Williams' idea of having our politicians wearing their "sponsors" logos on their suits, like NASCAR drivers, isn't such a bad idea.
| 662 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:28:33pm |
re: #661 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I'm honestly beginning to think that Robin Williams' idea of having our politicians wearing their "sponsors" logos on their suits, like NASCAR drivers, isn't such a bad idea.
Good one. I'm game. For all of them in fact.
| 663 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:28:42pm |
re: #660 moderatelyradicalliberal
Anybody watching FOX news is probably already on Walker and the TPers side. They are already clutching their pearls over the unions daring the protest in the first place.
[Link: wonkette.com...]
Maybe that John Galt guy will pop out of a cake and save Scott Walker and Free Enterprise from the evil unions? (Sadly, no. John Galt is just a fictional rapist from one of Ayn Rand’s horror stories, used during the CIA’s MK-ULTRA mind experiments to give horrible nightmares to small children and woodland creatures.) Uh, how about that drunken oaf who is always touching us, “Andrew Breitbart”? Maybe he has a fake YouTube video that proves Wisconsin public school teachers are racist against white farmers? That or something equally retarded, yes!
hahahahahaha
| 664 |
palomino Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:29:01pm |
A reduction in benefits in union contracts seems perfectly acceptable IF it's done to balance the budget and similar cuts are made across the board.
But that's not what's going on here. This is part of the longtime gop animosity towards unions and the goal of eliminating unions as a political force. Unions are among the most reliable Democratic donors. Republicans generally enjoy a fundraising advantage; that advantage grows with unions out of the mix.
| 665 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:29:08pm |
re: #658 wlewisiii
As I said yesterday, I'd do the same but it would scare the people I'm supporting even more than those like Scooter. Ah, it would be fun to go with my Marlin XS7 on one shoulder and my Nikon F2 on the other and a S&W 64 on my hip, but that's probably not too wise overall. Still ... And perhaps a sign saying:
Lincoln Brigade (Version 2.0) signup here!
General Sherman Brigade (Version 2.0) Don't make me come down there, again!
| 666 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:30:34pm |
re: #663 webevintage
[Link: wonkette.com...]
hahahahahaha
LOL! If it was about who was the funniest, we would never lose elections.
| 667 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:31:21pm |
I have the worst cold ever, and just want to cuddle with my fat orange fluffball of a cat, whom I love more than most humans. I can't, however, because I can't stop sneezing, and it scares the shit out of my cat.
So, Alfie (said cat) just sits 10 feet away and meows at me like he wants to hang out, but is too scared of the noise I make.
I fucking hate colds. Everything about them sucks.
| 668 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:31:34pm |
re: #665 moderatelyradicalliberal
General Sherman Brigade (Version 2.0) Don't make me come down there, again!
Heh, Good thought but I was thinking of these guys:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
It seems, sadly, much more appropriate these days.
| 669 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:31:37pm |
Thank you Charles for the endorsement, it means alot. I hope to be there tomorrow in Madison to counter the teabagger contingent that's coming. Never before in my life did I believe I'd be contemplating leaving the country. I've got 20 good working years left in me and I don't know if I want to invest it in a country that lets its citizens go bankrupt and have their lives ruined by health care costs. That want "payback" from teachers and other government workers not to mention all the other bullshit.
| 670 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:31:43pm |
re: #664 palomino
A reduction in benefits in union contracts seems perfectly acceptable IF it's done to balance the budget and similar cuts are made across the board.
But that's not what's going on here. This is part of the longtime gop animosity towards unions and the goal of eliminating unions as a political force. Unions are among the most reliable Democratic donors. Republicans generally enjoy a fundraising advantage; that advantage grows with unions out of the mix.
This. You take out unions and all Democrats have is Hollywood for big bucks.
| 671 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:32:33pm |
re: #668 wlewisiii
Heh, Good thought but I was thinking of these guys:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
It seems, sadly, much more appropriate these days.
Oh, I learned some new history today. Thanks!
| 672 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:33:09pm |
re: #666 moderatelyradicalliberal
LOL! If it was about who was the funniest, we would never lose elections.
Yep.
Is there even such a thing as a funny conservative site?
Even though Wonkette does go after one and all when they do stupid shit.
| 673 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:33:10pm |
re: #667 Fozzie Bear
I have the worst cold ever, and just want to cuddle with my fat orange fluffball of a cat, whom I love more than most humans. I can't, however, because I can't stop sneezing, and it scares the shit out of my cat.
So, Alfie (said cat) just sits 10 feet away and meows at me like he wants to hang out, but is too scared of the noise I make.
I fucking hate colds. Everything about them sucks.
Get better soon, Fozzie. Being sick stinks.
| 674 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:33:12pm |
Good night all! Gotta get up early.
| 675 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:33:12pm |
Hey all!
I know this has probably been covered in the previous threads, BUT
Planned Parenthood synopsis of House Debate-youtube.
As I said before, Republicans might just as well save their money, they've lost any chance at POTUS in 2012.
How is everyone this evening?
| 676 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:33:32pm |
Some good news.
Birthplace of the Confederacy backs away from anniversary event
In 1961, Montgomery, Ala., went all out for the centennial of the swearing-in of Confederate President Jefferson Davis. The 150th anniversary this year is generating far less interest.
Reporting from Montgomery, Ala. —
In 1961, whites in this former Confederate capital pulled out all the stops to mark the centennial of the swearing-in of Jefferson Davis, president of the breakaway slave states.Three Southern governors attended, decked out in period costumes, along with the mayor, an outspoken segregationist. About 1,200 Montgomerians put on a secession-themed pageant every day for a week. Men around Alabama grew beards to 19th century lengths to mark the occasion.
There was a beauty contest, parades attended by thousands and a "Confederate Drummer Boy" event for kids.
On Saturday, the 150th anniversary event will bear some similarities: Hundreds of men are expected to march through the heart of Montgomery. Some will parade in Confederate gray. Some will display the controversial battle flag. On the steps of the white-domed state Capitol, an ersatz Davis will place his hand on a Bible. And a band will play "Dixie."
But so far, this year's festivities are generating scant buy-in from city and state officials, and relatively little buzz among locals.
Mayor Todd Strange said he probably won't attend. Randy George, president of the city's Chamber of Commerce, doesn't have the event on his to-do list. The office of Republican Gov. Robert Bentley — who, like Strange and George, is white — did not respond to a query on the matter.
Continues.
| 677 |
austin_blue Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:34:39pm |
Night all. Sleep well. I love this bistro of ideas and opinion. Let's not fuck it up, okay?
I want multiple points of view here.
| 678 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:34:40pm |
re: #667 Fozzie Bear
I have the worst cold ever, and just want to cuddle with my fat orange fluffball of a cat, whom I love more than most humans. I can't, however, because I can't stop sneezing, and it scares the shit out of my cat.
So, Alfie (said cat) just sits 10 feet away and meows at me like he wants to hang out, but is too scared of the noise I make.
I fucking hate colds. Everything about them sucks.
Please feel better, I feel bad for you and your Alfie.
| 679 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:34:48pm |
re: #675 ggt
How is everyone this evening?
I made pie so it helped even out the rage I've been feeling all day.
| 680 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:35:30pm |
re: #659 Fozzie Bear
That is the perfect description of most soviet technology. Amazingly well crafted technology at the core, and wrapped in cheaply-made shit.
Noteworthy commentary, with pics from Afghanistan:
[Link: arstechnica.com...]
Warning: helicopter porn at link.
| 681 |
Querent Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:35:57pm |
re: #484 Floral Giraffe
It depends on where you live.
35K might be a handsome sum in oh, shoot me, Alabama, but it'd such in California.
well lets see... i bought a condo in CA when i was making 38K. Of course it's a very small, old condo...
| 682 |
tnguitarist Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:36:02pm |
re: #667 Fozzie Bear
I would gladly trade for a cold right now. I just had 5 wisdom teeth yanked/cut out. (yep, 5)
| 683 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:36:15pm |
re: #679 webevintage
I made pie so it helped even out the rage I've been feeling all day.
Can I have some of that mellow pie?
My options are much more limited now then when I was in my 20's. By choice, sigh!
| 684 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:36:58pm |
re: #675 ggt
Hey all!
I know this has probably been covered in the previous threads, BUT
Planned Parenthood synopsis of House Debate-youtube.
As I said before, Republicans might just as well save their money, they've lost any chance at POTUS in 2012.
How is everyone this evening?
Really, there's only two ways I see the GOP having a fighting chance next year: They run a moderate candidate whose not sucking down the TP kool-aid by the tanker-load OR the economy implodes. They don't seem interested in the former, so are now gambling on managing the latter in a manner that they can blame on Obama.
| 685 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:37:34pm |
re: #678 ggt
Please feel better, I feel bad for you and your Alfie.
I'm ok. I mean, I know the drill. It'll be gone in a few days.
Alfie, on the other hand, is really upset, and I can't stop sneezing long enough to comfort him.
I bottle raised this cat, and he follows me EVERYWHERE. He thinks i'm his mom. I can go for walks with him, and he never leaves my side. He also loves to lay across my shoulders when I take walks with his feet on either side of my head. (when he gets tired of walking) I just hold his feet and wear him like a rumbly scarf, which gets me some funny looks from the neighbors. I don't care, this cat is awesome.
| 686 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:38:04pm |
re: #669 Amory Blaine
Good for you, AB. Please post about how it went when you have time.
| 687 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:38:05pm |
re: #679 webevintage
I made pie so it helped even out the rage I've been feeling all day.
Cheap whiskey & beer for me. Wisconsin to the core ///
| 688 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:39:27pm |
re: #679 webevintage
I made pie so it helped even out the rage I've been feeling all day.
I should say that while the R's have done a good job of helping piss me off today it was a troll on a local blog who inferred that I would be cool with my son (if he was younger) having sex with a teacher (statutory rape) because I said I felt bad for a high school math teacher here (single mother) who got fired because she got caught up in a sting operation working on the side as a call girl.
It was just so offensive and such a personal attack.
if we were face to face I would have slapped him it was such a nasty thing to say.
| 689 |
prairiefire Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:39:50pm |
re: #682 tnguitarist
I would gladly trade for a cold right now. I just had 5 wisdom teeth yanked/cut out. (yep, 5)
Oh, lucky you, you had one extra for luck! I had impacted ones taken out many years ago. You will feel better soon. Are you on a T3 puffy cloud?
| 690 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:40:35pm |
Yet another anti-EPA amendment...
This is supposed to be about the continuing funding bill... and the big problem, supposedly, is the massive deficit.
Yet most of these GOP amendments are ideological, to unfund what they can't outlaw.
| 691 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:42:21pm |
re: #682 tnguitarist
I would gladly trade for a cold right now. I just had 5 wisdom teeth yanked/cut out. (yep, 5)
Ugh. That's no fun. I had that done when I was younger, and it wasn't a picnic. (Well, only 4 in my case) Get well soon.
| 692 |
tnguitarist Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:42:47pm |
re: #689 prairiefire
Oh, lucky you, you had one extra for luck! I had impacted ones taken out many years ago. You will feel better soon. Are you on a T3 puffy cloud?
Demerol at the moment. Fading fast.
| 693 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:43:37pm |
Balloon Juice:
From this day forward, a breitbart is a turd in the wrong place.
As in:
“Damn, the dog just left a huge, stinking breitbart on the living room carpet! I told you not to feed him chili!”
“Who left a breitbart in your cheerios?”
“Everybody check your soles—smells like someone stepped in a breitbart.”
hahahahaha
| 695 |
Querent Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:44:24pm |
re: #586 webevintage
BTW it was pie night.
I made a lovely crust, cooked it, then filled it with a layer of cream cheese/cherries/sugar then topped that with a layer of choc pudding (the cooked kind, not instant) then added more cherries to the top and into the fridge it went.
I am now eating some with whip cream on top.
Upding if you like pie.
Upding even if you don't like pie.
| 696 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:44:43pm |
re: #685 Fozzie Bear
I'm ok. I mean, I know the drill. It'll be gone in a few days.
Alfie, on the other hand, is really upset, and I can't stop sneezing long enough to comfort him.
I bottle raised this cat, and he follows me EVERYWHERE. He thinks i'm his mom. I can go for walks with him, and he never leaves my side. He also loves to lay across my shoulders when I take walks with his feet on either side of my head. (when he gets tired of walking) I just hold his feet and wear him like a rumbly scarf, which gets me some funny looks from the neighbors. I don't care, this cat is awesome.
I had a cat I could walk once. It was very cool.
My current Cat Overlord would think such a thing was beneath him.
| 697 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:45:10pm |
re: #690 freetoken
Yet another anti-EPA amendment...
This is supposed to be about the continuing funding bill... and the big problem, supposedly, is the massive deficit.
Yet most of these GOP amendments are ideological, to unfund what they can't outlaw.
Pittsburgh afternoon...
| 698 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:45:12pm |
re: #680 negativ
Noteworthy commentary, with pics from Afghanistan:
[Link: arstechnica.com...]
Warning: helicopter porn at link.
Hinds aren't pretty but they do their job very well. The Hind is no longer in production, though. Russia is finally starting to replace it with the Mi-28 'Havoc' and the Ka-52 'Alligator'. Both are two-seaters (though the Ka-52 has a single seat Ka-50 version as well) but are faster and more maneuverable than their predecessor.
| 699 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:45:44pm |
| 700 |
Lidane Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:46:08pm |
re: #675 ggt
How is everyone this evening?
Mellow, all things considered. I made chicken & dumplings in the slow cooker today and had some Ben & Jerry's carrot cake ice cream for dessert. :D
| 702 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:47:38pm |
I'm so fucking pissed about the Title X legislation right now, I could spit.
I may actually have to join a political party and get real active over this one.
| 703 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:49:22pm |
re: #696 ggt
I had a cat I could walk once. It was very cool.
My current Cat Overlord would think such a thing was beneath him.
I think bottle-raising him from before his eyes were open is key to Alfie's personality. His mom was run over by a car when he was a week old, so he has literally never even seen his actual mom. Yes, I even had to wipe his ass with a warm washcloth as a kitten, and had to stimulate him to urinate several times a day with said washcloth.
Now, he is UP MY ASS 24/7 when I'm home. He waits in the front window of my house all day when I am at work, after spending the first hour after I leave walking around the house yowling his fuzzy head off.
And yet, I balk at the idea of having kids. LOL.
| 704 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:50:55pm |
re: #702 ggt
I'm so fucking pissed about the Title X legislation right now, I could spit.
I may actually have to join a political party and get real active over this one.
Do what you can. Tomorrow can be a brighter day.
That reminds me though, I need to pay my dues to my group - the Democratic Socialists of America. [Link: www.dsausa.org...]
| 705 |
Interesting Times Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:51:12pm |
re: #702 ggt
I'm so fucking pissed about the Title X legislation right now, I could spit.
In the meantime, as an outlet, you could downding this douchebaggery from the top of the Bottom Comments :) (seriously, I don't think I've seen one that high in ages - can it top 60? 70, even?)
| 706 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:51:37pm |
re: #703 Fozzie Bear
I think bottle-raising him from before his eyes were open is key to Alfie's personality. His mom was run over by a car when he was a week old, so he has literally never even seen his actual mom. Yes, I even had to wipe his ass with a warm washcloth as a kitten, and had to stimulate him to urinate several times a day with said washcloth.
Now, he is UP MY ASS 24/7 when I'm home. He waits in the front window of my house all day when I am at work, after spending the first hour after I leave walking around the house yowling his fuzzy head off.
And yet, I balk at the idea of having kids. LOL.
bottle feeding little critters is double-plus cool. I've gotten to do it with puppies. Done the urine stimulation thing too, not so cool, but it has to be done.
little wubbies are soooooooo special!
| 707 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:52:06pm |
re: #703 Fozzie Bear
I think bottle-raising him from before his eyes were open is key to Alfie's personality. His mom was run over by a car when he was a week old, so he has literally never even seen his actual mom. Yes, I even had to wipe his ass with a warm washcloth as a kitten, and had to stimulate him to urinate several times a day with said washcloth.
Now, he is UP MY ASS 24/7 when I'm home. He waits in the front window of my house all day when I am at work, after spending the first hour after I leave walking around the house yowling his fuzzy head off.
And yet, I balk at the idea of having kids. LOL.
You have your child. And I'll cry with you the day you outlive him, hopefully a good 20 years from now.
| 708 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:52:38pm |
re: #704 wlewisiii
Do what you can. Tomorrow can be a brighter day.
That reminds me though, I need to pay my dues to my group - the Democratic Socialists of America. [Link: www.dsausa.org...]
It's probably a good thing I wasn't around for the previous threads, I might have broken something.
| 709 |
blueraven Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:52:45pm |
re: #649 Talking Point Detective
They're already pushing photos of Walker-as-Hitler signs hard. It's going to be nasty.
My big fear about this whole thing is that it will bring out the far left loons en masse to rival the tea party crazys. What this country does not need now is a convergence of the wingnuts.
| 710 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:53:16pm |
re: #705 publicityStunted
In the meantime, as an outlet, you could downding this douchebaggery from the top of the Bottom Comments :) (seriously, I don't think I've seen one that high in ages - can it top 60? 70, even?)
done!
| 711 |
Querent Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:53:28pm |
re: #693 webevintage
i like it. it makes me grin. upding.
spread the meme...
| 712 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:54:15pm |
re: #707 wlewisiii
You have your child. And I'll cry with you the day you outlive him, hopefully a good 20 years from now.
Oh God I hope he lives a long time. The little fucker better break some longevity records.
That's the hardest part of having pets you are so close to. You always outlive them, and it's always heartbreaking.
| 714 |
Querent Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:55:22pm |
re: #709 blueraven
My big fear about this whole thing is that it will bring out the far left loons en masse to rival the tea party crazys. What this country does not need now is a convergence of the wingnuts.
UNLESS we can have them converge at Thunderdome.
And put it on pay-per-view.
| 715 |
What, me worry? Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:56:13pm |
re: #703 Fozzie Bear
I think bottle-raising him from before his eyes were open is key to Alfie's personality. His mom was run over by a car when he was a week old, so he has literally never even seen his actual mom. Yes, I even had to wipe his ass with a warm washcloth as a kitten, and had to stimulate him to urinate several times a day with said washcloth.
Now, he is UP MY ASS 24/7 when I'm home. He waits in the front window of my house all day when I am at work, after spending the first hour after I leave walking around the house yowling his fuzzy head off.
And yet, I balk at the idea of having kids. LOL.
No, what you need is another cat :)
Hope you feel better soon. I wish I had some anti-sneezing advice.
| 716 |
Querent Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:56:43pm |
woof.
finally caught up with the end of the thread.
(and most of the lizards have gone home. :: sigh ::)
| 718 |
Lidane Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:57:25pm |
re: #714 Querent
UNLESS we can have them converge at Thunderdome.
And put it on pay-per-view.
I'd totally pay for that. Hell, I'd throw a party and have folks pitch in to watch it and to bring booze and snacks.
| 719 |
Querent Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:58:43pm |
re: #718 Lidane
I'd totally pay for that. Hell, I'd throw a party and have folks pitch in to watch it and to bring booze and snacks.
i've always figured it would be a great way to raise funds to fill in those budget shortfalls. I like to call it my "Bread & Circuses Tax Scheme"...
| 720 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 9:59:01pm |
re: #712 Fozzie Bear
Oh God I hope he lives a long time. The little fucker better break some longevity records.
That's the hardest part of having pets you are so close to. You always outlive them, and it's always heartbreaking.
We lost two, one within a year of the other. Worst part is both had to be put down, which probably rates with "Having your entrails pulled out through navel" on terms of pain you can feel. Damn near broke my old man to put the first down, since she purred right up to the end. Closest I've ever come to seeing him cry.
| 721 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:00:47pm |
re: #716 Querent
woof.
finally caught up with the end of the thread.(and most of the lizards have gone home. :: sigh ::)
There are still good folks here. What's up in your neck of the woods?
| 722 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:01:42pm |
I'm tired and I'm pissed.
going to bed.
Have a great morning all!
| 723 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:01:58pm |
Feb 19, 1945. Too many young men began to die on a little shit hole named Iwo Jima.
For them.
| 724 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:02:11pm |
re: #720 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
We lost two, one within a year of the other. Worst part is both had to be put down, which probably rates with "Having your entrails pulled out through navel" on terms of pain you can feel. Damn near broke my old man to put the first down, since she purred right up to the end. Closest I've ever come to seeing him cry.
I challenge anyone who thinks cats are aloof and distant to an afternoon with Alfie. I don't even know any dogs more devoted than him.
Cats are fucking awesome pets.
| 725 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:03:04pm |
re: #724 Fozzie Bear
I challenge anyone who thinks cats are aloof and distant to an afternoon with Alfie. I don't even know any dogs more devoted than him.
Cats are fucking awesome pets.
Mine are so not aloof, they're always in my stuff, always following me around, always on my lap, always loafing on my tablet
| 726 |
What, me worry? Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:04:13pm |
re: #724 Fozzie Bear
I challenge anyone who thinks cats are aloof and distant to an afternoon with Alfie. I don't even know any dogs more devoted than him.
Cats are fucking awesome pets.
Yea, they are. Have you considered another? If you bring in a kitten, there's an adjustment period, but they usually become friends quickly.
| 727 |
Lidane Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:04:29pm |
I swear, my mother's concept of time has totally changed in the past year. It used to be that she'd watch the 10pm local news, then go to bed and wake up by 6am.
These days, she's calling me at midnight to talk about random things she sees on TV, and about whatever else comes to mind. WTF?
| 728 |
Querent Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:05:18pm |
Hey DF. Congrats for sticking with it tonight 'cause that's one of the wonderful things about LGF.
Not really sure what was up LaZardo's exit-only tonight tho' -- but i AM always amazed by who's still here through all the changing times. (Remember, i'm from the infamous class of 2004 -- and i only registered then because i finally had something to contribute to a discussion that was going on at the time! Otherwise i'd have lurked even longer.)
i certainly don't want to see any of LGF's remaining conservatives get discouraged and leave (and i'm fairly sure they won't succumb to the Stupidiosity)...
| 729 |
Lidane Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:05:24pm |
re: #724 Fozzie Bear
I challenge anyone who thinks cats are aloof and distant to an afternoon with Alfie. I don't even know any dogs more devoted than him.
Cats are fucking awesome pets.
My cats are awesome. They're interesting characters, and have very distinct quirks.
| 730 |
freetoken Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:06:19pm |
Hehe... now back to voting on the previous set of amendments.
This just all seems to be such an inefficient way to run a government.
| 731 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:06:33pm |
re: #667 Fozzie Bear
I have the worst cold ever, and just want to cuddle with my fat orange fluffball of a cat, whom I love more than most humans. I can't, however, because I can't stop sneezing, and it scares the shit out of my cat.
So, Alfie (said cat) just sits 10 feet away and meows at me like he wants to hang out, but is too scared of the noise I make.
I fucking hate colds. Everything about them sucks.
you too, huh *_*
| 732 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:06:34pm |
re: #724 Fozzie Bear
I challenge anyone who thinks cats are aloof and distant to an afternoon with Alfie. I don't even know any dogs more devoted than him.
Cats are fucking awesome pets.
We got three these days: A sleek gray female who is neurotic and would probably run from a leaf, this tiny little runt of a calico that only cuddles with you on her terms, and this big ol' gray fluff ball of a male who wants attention all the time. The last one, Smokey, has pretty much adopted me, whining at me all the time to pet him, to hold him, and to let him under the covers when I go to bed at night.
| 733 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:06:56pm |
And to stalker "Malachi Mulligan", who has a serious hater hard-on for me:
Does your butt hurt much, flouncebait? [waves at the Stalkers]
| 734 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:07:03pm |
speaking of which, devon rex #1 is STANDING ON MY MONITOR GET OFF CAT
| 737 |
What, me worry? Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:08:07pm |
re: #732 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
We got three these days: A sleek gray female who is neurotic and would probably run from a leaf, this tiny little runt of a calico that only cuddles with you on her terms, and this big ol' gray fluff ball of a male who wants attention all the time. The last one, Smokey, has pretty much adopted me, whining at me all the time to pet him, to hold him, and to let him under the covers when I go to bed at night.
Everybody, but everybody has a cat named either
Butch
Zoe
Smokey
at some point in their lives :)
| 738 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:08:07pm |
re: #736 MikeySDCA
Does this mean that Charles is going to impose yet another level of political correctness, on top of his opposition to the right and his road to Damascus conversion to AGW?
What?
| 739 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:08:54pm |
re: #728 Querent
Hey DF. Congrats for sticking with it tonight 'cause that's one of the wonderful things about LGF.
Not really sure what was up LaZardo's exit-only tonight tho' -- but i AM always amazed by who's still here through all the changing times. (Remember, i'm from the infamous class of 2004 -- and i only registered then because i finally had something to contribute to a discussion that was going on at the time! Otherwise i'd have lurked even longer.)
i certainly don't want to see any of LGF's remaining conservatives get discouraged and leave (and i'm fairly sure they won't succumb to the Stupidiosity)...
I'm never sure these days if I even qualify as a conservative, though I consider myself one. Think they revoked my VRWC card after I spoke mean things about Bush one too many times.
| 740 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:09:02pm |
Does Stinky's sledgehammer have a scary soundtrack? I think I hear something.
Disagreeing is one thing. Being rude is another.
| 741 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:09:16pm |
re: #624 Obdicut
A worker is a worker.
I've worked for corporations with bureaucracies so byzantine they make the IRS and the DMV look like spas.
It's all just people and collections of people. There's nothing magically different about government.
I worked in health care! Non-profit, not a government thing, the bureaucracy was honestly from hell itself, several smart day staff I used to work with quit in disgust over it
| 743 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:09:59pm |
re: #737 marjoriemoon
Everybody, but everybody has a cat named either
Butch
Zoe
Smokeyat some point in their lives :)
Not me!
I had a... Brandy, a Harvey, a Judge, a Domino, and currently I have a Cydonia, a Jezzy and a Sambuca :D
| 744 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:10:54pm |
re: #743 WindUpBird
oh and a Sam, Sam was awesome
| 745 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:11:06pm |
re: #740 EmmmieG
Does Stinky's sledgehammer have a scary soundtrack? I think I hear something.
Disagreeing is one thing. Being rude is another.
I think I just spotted rude.
Yes, I'm looking at you MikeySDCA.
| 746 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:11:18pm |
re: #737 marjoriemoon
Everybody, but everybody has a cat named either
(snip)
Smokeyat some point in their lives :)
Happily guilty!
| 747 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:11:23pm |
re: #717 Gus 802
Big oil welfare project wins.
Next!
lol
America! By the oil companies, for the oil companies
| 748 |
Lidane Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:11:29pm |
re: #737 marjoriemoon
Everybody, but everybody has a cat named either
Butch
Zoe
Smokeyat some point in their lives :)
If I ever have a gray cat I'll name it Smokey, but until then I've only got a Sushi and a Bruce. Before them, I had a Sam and a Boopsie. :D
| 749 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:11:52pm |
The only cat I have ever loved was named Ophelia III.
| 750 |
schnapp Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:12:13pm |
re: #728 Querent
Hey DF. Congrats for sticking with it tonight 'cause that's one of the wonderful things about LGF.
Not really sure what was up LaZardo's exit-only tonight tho' -- but i AM always amazed by who's still here through all the changing times. (Remember, i'm from the infamous class of 2004 -- and i only registered then because i finally had something to contribute to a discussion that was going on at the time! Otherwise i'd have lurked even longer.)
i certainly don't want to see any of LGF's remaining conservatives get discouraged and leave (and i'm fairly sure they won't succumb to the Stupidiosity)...
I take a generally free market view of economics. I'm sick of some people here being so aggressive and condescending, as if you don't agree with them you are a mad, evil and corrupt ignorant right winger. I will continue reading ths blog as I have done since 2007, but if I want to talk economics there are places out there to have a more civilized discussion.
| 751 |
What, me worry? Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:12:53pm |
re: #743 WindUpBird
Not me!
I had a... Brandy, a Harvey, a Judge, a Domino, and currently I have a Cydonia, a Jezzy and a Sambuca :D
You're young. There's time :p
| 752 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:12:54pm |
re: #705 publicityStunted
In the meantime, as an outlet, you could downding this douchebaggery from the top of the Bottom Comments :) (seriously, I don't think I've seen one that high in ages - can it top 60? 70, even?)
He sorta hit the hat trick of being stupid, racist and projecting all at once
| 754 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:13:40pm |
re: #737 marjoriemoon
Everybody, but everybody has a cat named either
Butch
Zoe
Smokeyat some point in their lives :)
Yeah, our three are truly imaginative names.
Missy (Grey female)
Cally (Calico female)
Smokey (Grey male)
Of course, we can't take responsibility for Missy's name, since we were pretty much given her after her owner had to be put in a nursing home. Her natural state seems to be looking at the world with eyes as wide as saucers, ready to run at the first sign of sudden movement.
| 755 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:13:54pm |
re: #736 MikeySDCA
Dude. That was uncool. You should apologize.
| 756 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:14:20pm |
re: #751 marjoriemoon
You're young. There's time :p
haha that is true, but I fear our cats names' will get stranger and stranger
One day I wish to have a cat named Iggy, but it can only be the cat who really fits the name
| 757 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:15:06pm |
re: #736 MikeySDCA
Does this mean that Charles is going to impose yet another level of political correctness, on top of his opposition to the right and his road to Damascus conversion to AGW?
Internet tough guy!
| 758 |
blueraven Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:15:28pm |
re: #736 MikeySDCA
Does this mean that Charles is going to impose yet another level of political correctness, on top of his opposition to the right and his road to Damascus conversion to AGW?
Did you forget something? / or // maybe?
| 759 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:16:00pm |
re: #755 Gus 802
Dude. That was uncool. You should apologize.
Quite Concur. Charles downdinged me tonight, but no one other than LaZardo tried to impose anything or run me off. And LZ got his own set of downdings for that.
| 760 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:16:06pm |
re: #752 WindUpBird
He sorta hit the hat trick of being stupid, racist and projecting all at once
"Arrogance and stupidity all in one package. How efficient of you."
| 761 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:16:42pm |
re: #760 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
"Arrogance and stupidity all in one package. How efficient of you."
Well, at least he went out on bottom :D
| 762 |
Daniel Ballard Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:17:23pm |
re: #102 Obdicut
Okay hundreds & hundreds of posts later... ( I was out to watch a movie) Thanks you for that post.
| 763 |
What, me worry? Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:17:48pm |
re: #748 Lidane
If I ever have a gray cat I'll name it Smokey, but until then I've only got a Sushi and a Bruce. Before them, I had a Sam and a Boopsie. :D
We have a gray cat who was the runt of his litter. The neighbor cat is "Smokey" (see what I'm saying??) so we named him PeeWee. Now he's the biggest cat we have.
And he's scary. He's a mass of muscle and glares at you through half closed eyes. He yowls when he wants to eat. But he's such a pussycat, very sweet. Even so, he freaks me and my husband out. He looks like he can rip your face off.
| 764 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:18:04pm |
re: #753 Gus 802
[Video]
I love how the cat just sort of sits there for the first 15 seconds or so with a stoic expression on its face like "enjoy it now herbivore, one day I will be large enough to snap your neck in one bite, ONE DAY!" Though the image was somewhat ruined by the prance around "now do the other side" dance it it did after that...
| 765 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:19:57pm |
re: #761 WindUpBird
Well, at least he went out on bottom :D
Well he hasn't been banned, but those who get -60 on a single comment tend to be on the crazytrain to Stalkerville.
| 766 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:20:07pm |
Ok last post in homage to Alfie.
This cat:
- brings me presents of socks and rubber bands he has "caught", daily.
- must spend at least 10 minutes every evening grooming my beard when I lie down for bed. this isn't optional. I have tried to stop him, he gets very upset.
- must sleep under the covers with me and my wife. Temperature isn't the issue, he does it on hot summer nights too. Once again, not optional. Luckily, my wife loves him as much as I do.
- LOVES chase games. The game starts when Alfie runs into the room and waps at my leg with his paw, then runs away. I chase him, and when I find his hiding spot, run away. He chases me and "catches" me. This repeats for awhile. Both of us often end up out of breath.
- collects rubber bands and my wife's hair ties. He puts them in his food dish, hides them under the throw rug in the kitchen (I once found 12 of them under that rug), or presents them to me as gifts.
- loves showers. Or at least tolerates them. Every morning when I take a shower, Alfie hops in the shower with me and just sits there, getting drenched. i have to towel both of us off after, every morning.
- loves taking shoulder rides, as previously mentioned.
- tries to make friends with EVERYTHING. He once caught a mouse and spent several minutes grooming it, before releasing it unhurt, according to my wife.
- gets into places that defy reason. He is regularly found balanced on the top edge of the door to my bedroom. There is no furniture near that door to make the jump from. It remains a mystery how the hell he gets up there. The top edge of the door is about 7 feet off the ground. HOW THE HELL DOES HE GET UP THERE?!?!?1
- loves bananas more than anything else in the world. He would eat a whole banana if I let him. I don't let him, because I am afraid of the havoc it would wreak on his carnivorous digestive system.
- knows basic commands such as "hop up" (into my lap), "get down", and "shoulder". (The last one means hop up onto my shoulders.)
- must greet anyone who enters the house by touching noses with them, or HE WON'T SHUT UP. He'll just "mrow... mrow... mrow" at them until they let him. The second he gets to sniff their faces, he is content again.
- will run up to anyone who makes eye contact with him and hop in their lap. If you lock eyes with him from across a room, he WILL be in your lap within 10 seconds.
BEST
CAT
EVER
| 767 |
What, me worry? Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:20:07pm |
re: #754 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Zoe, Peewee, Butch, Bossy, Sweetie. Yogi and BooBoo died a few years back. They were 19 and 18, respectively. Oh, and the dog Yona. And outside Kitteh, Smelly Cat and Tommy. They come and go. Everyone feeds them.
| 768 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:20:38pm |
re: #759 Dark_Falcon
Quite Concur. Charles downdinged me tonight, but no one other than LaZardo tried to impose anything or run me off. And LZ got his own set of downdings for that.
I was tempted to downding ya' but I get all weird and loyal with people sometimes after I get to know them. Even if I disagree with them highly. ;) Just don't call me fat.
| 769 |
Daniel Ballard Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:22:42pm |
re: #759 Dark_Falcon
Just back in... Dude well done.
LZ and the GOP overreached. Kudos to you and Charles in this instance. You get your pov and he marked his disagreement as we often do. A ding. Not a rant, not a banning.
So screw u to those who claim we can not disagree with CJ here.
| 770 |
webevintage Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:23:40pm |
I have 4 cats.
They hate each other.
Master Chief, Allie Cat, Nico the Bedroom Cat, and Angus He Who sprays so he sleeps under the house.
They all love me.
| 771 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:24:22pm |
re: #768 Gus 802
I was tempted to downding ya' but I get all weird and loyal with people sometimes after I get to know them. Even if I disagree with them highly. ;) Just don't call me fat.
Thank you for that.
| 772 |
What, me worry? Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:24:27pm |
| 773 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:25:01pm |
re: #736 MikeySDCA
Does this mean that Charles is going to impose yet another level of political correctness, on top of his opposition to the right and his road to Damascus conversion to AGW?
Oh bullshit. I have downdinged Charles, several times, and i'm still here.
As long as you aren't a complete asshole, all the time, you can say whatever you want. Pointless bitching about editorial policy, however, may get you banned. Just saying.
| 774 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:25:45pm |
re: #769 Rightwingconspirator
Just back in... Dude well done.
LZ and the GOP overreached. Kudos to you and Charles in this instance. You get your pov and he marked his disagreement as we often do. A ding. Not a rant, not a banning.So screw u to those who claim we can not disagree with CJ here.
Thanks. I've got some more to say about Wisconsin, but it'll keep till tomorrow. I can finally give Obdicut the answer I owe him.
| 775 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:25:57pm |
| 776 |
Targetpractice Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:26:13pm |
re: #773 Fozzie Bear
Oh bullshit. I have downdinged Charles, several times, and i'm still here.
As long as you aren't a complete asshole, all the time, you can say whatever you want. Pointless bitching about editorial policy, however, may get you banned. Just saying.
And speaking ill of bicycles.
/
| 777 |
What, me worry? Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:26:36pm |
| 778 |
Daniel Ballard Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:27:18pm |
A good night to you all. See ya next time.
| 779 |
What, me worry? Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:27:46pm |
| 780 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:28:29pm |
re: #759 Dark_Falcon
Quite Concur. Charles downdinged me tonight, but no one other than LaZardo tried to impose anything or run me off. And LZ got his own set of downdings for that.
I don't remember if I did or didn't at any point tonight, honestly. I tend to use dings in the moment and then forget them. + I agree, - I disagree, with an occasional "more than that" just to keep me from being too predictably libural ;)
That said, DF, even though we disagree more than often (you silly Bears fan, you ;) ) , I find your input extremely valuable. I looked for this place while looking for someplace to keep me honest in my arguments. Thank you for being consistently yourself.
| 781 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:29:48pm |
re: #777 marjoriemoon
Orange cats are the weirdest :p
You know, you aren't the first person to say this. I wonder if there is something riding along on the fur-color genes that makes them smarter, or more sensitive, or something. He really is unlike I ank cat I have ever known, and I grew up on a horse farm. Horse farms = lots of cats. It's like a law of nature. All the strays from within miles end up shacking up in the barn.
| 782 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:31:04pm |
| 783 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:32:16pm |
re: #30 Stanley Sea
You have read that this budget "crisis" was created by the new Gov?
Please D_F. Read up.
I love how out of staters claim this budget crisis is made up. You have no clue. The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel and Politifact:
[Link: www.jsonline.com...]
MSNBC talk show host Rachel Maddow says "Despite what you may have heard about Wisconsin's finances, the state is on track to have a budget surplus this year." We say: False.
| 784 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:33:06pm |
re: #777 marjoriemoon
Orange cats are the weirdest :p
First and only orange cat my family had was also the first and only male one we've had his name was Scattergood... still not as weird as the white crested female we have now who I believe I showed you guys she's a real smart cat...
| 785 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:34:15pm |
re: #32 moderatelyradicalliberal
Apparently, not enough financial peril to give rich people and corporations a tax cut. If the budget was in such terrible shape tax cuts to the wealthy shouldn't have been on the table.
It was a 2 year tax reprieve for any business that relocated their business to Wisconsin. Doesn't seem like a bad idea to me--and between the income generated for employees and the taxes they pay, I am sure it is paid for.
| 786 |
What, me worry? Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:34:41pm |
re: #781 Fozzie Bear
You know, you aren't the first person to say this. I wonder if there is something riding along on the fur-color genes that makes them smarter, or more sensitive, or something. He really is unlike I ank cat I have ever known, and I grew up on a horse farm. Horse farms = lots of cats. It's like a law of nature. All the strays from within miles end up shacking up in the barn.
Not a hard fast rule, but then maybe there are some orange genes in other non-orange "odd" cats.
It was observation for me, me and my friends and their orange cats! I've had 2 and my first orange, Macho, was like your Alfie. He absolutely had to clean my husband's beard. He was also the mother of all the other cats. He tended to them and reprimanded them. Very chatty too, orange cats. Always something to say.
Would definitely be an interesting study!
| 787 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:37:20pm |
re: #783 BryanS
I love how out of staters claim this budget crisis is made up. You have no clue. The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel and Politifact:
[Link: www.jsonline.com...] 63.html
Sorry dude but the Legislative Reference Bureau is hardly out of state but hey, that's ok. He's a republican and, lying? IOKIYAR.
| 788 |
What, me worry? Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:39:10pm |
re: #784 jamesfirecat
First and only orange cat my family had was also the first and only male one we've had his name was Scattergood... still not as weird as the white crested female we have now who I believe I showed you guys she's a real smart cat...
My one who lived to 19 was the smartest. He could open the door to the backroom where his litterbox was if it was closed. Stand on his hind legs and turn the knob with his front paws. Hand to God.
He also got into a bubble blowing contest with me. He was watching me chew gum and I realized he was fixated on my mouth blowing bubbles. He started to stick his tongue out everytime I did LOL
Yogi, he was all black. Not a speck of white on him, which is unusual.
| 789 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:39:13pm |
re: #785 BryanS
It was a 2 year tax reprieve for any business that relocated their business to Wisconsin. Doesn't seem like a bad idea to me--and between the income generated for employees and the taxes they pay, I am sure it is paid for.
Apparently, it isn't. There is a budget shortfall. How could it be paid for?
| 790 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:40:15pm |
re: #785 BryanS
It was a 2 year tax reprieve for any business that relocated their business to Wisconsin. Doesn't seem like a bad idea to me--and between the income generated for employees and the taxes they pay, I am sure it is paid for.
I kind of wish he hadn't done that, given that it may hit Illinois, but that's what Illinois gets for reelecting that shnook Pat Quinn. He's now released yet another bloated budget, even after he gets a tax hike he won't stop borrowing.
| 791 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:41:26pm |
re: #790 Dark_Falcon
I kind of wish he hadn't done that, given that it may hit Illinois, but that's what Illinois gets for reelecting that shnook Pat Quinn. He's now released yet another bloated budget, even after he gets a tax hike he won't stop borrowing.
I know you won't agree, but that's what you do during a recession. You spend more.
Counter-cyclical spending. It's the bedrock of sound fiscal policy.
| 792 |
What, me worry? Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:41:46pm |
re: #784 jamesfirecat
First and only orange cat my family had was also the first and only male one we've had his name was Scattergood... still not as weird as the white crested female we have now who I believe I showed you guys she's a real smart cat...
Real pretty too :)
| 793 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:43:28pm |
re: #787 wlewisiii
Sorry dude but the Legislative Reference Bureau is hardly out of state but hey, that's ok. He's a republican and, lying? IOKIYAR.
Sorry dude, but taking the facts in the Legislative Reference Bureau grossly out of context doesn't make the claim right. That was the point of the Journal-Sentinel and Politifact--a liberal, and neutral organization respectively.
The ~$150mil 'surplus' was funds on the books, but there were more expenses yet to be paid than the funds on the states books. The Legislative Reference Bureau reports information this way for a very good reason outlined in the politifact writeup debunking this really blatantly false claim that there was a surplus.
| 794 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:45:11pm |
re: #789 Fozzie Bear
Apparently, it isn't. There is a budget shortfall. How could it be paid for?
Income and property taxes paid for by the new jobs/employees offset the tax credits. Simple as that. Then after the two year reprieve, normal taxes add even more to the State's income.
| 795 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:46:03pm |
re: #791 Fozzie Bear
I know you won't agree, but that's what you do during a recession. You spend more.
Counter-cyclical spending. It's the bedrock of sound fiscal policy.
Not when you're as deep in the hole as Illinois is. Then you reign in spending instead of raising taxes. A tax hike creates a drag on a state's business climate that government spending cannot compensate for.
| 796 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:46:03pm |
re: #791 Fozzie Bear
I know you won't agree, but that's what you do during a recession. You spend more.
Counter-cyclical spending. It's the bedrock of sound fiscal policy.
unless you prefer ideology to studies, facts and results
| 797 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:46:57pm |
re: #795 Dark_Falcon
Not when you're as deep in the hole as Illinois is. Then you reign in spending instead of raising taxes. A tax hike creates a drag on a state's business climate that government spending cannot compensate for.
Please cite ANYTHING that supports this notion from a reasonably objective source, because you're not an economist
| 798 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:47:55pm |
re: #795 Dark_Falcon
Not when you're as deep in the hole as Illinois is. Then you reign in spending instead of raising taxes. A tax hike creates a drag on a state's business climate that government spending cannot compensate for.
also, how does a tax hike on private individuals with lots of discretionary income change the business climate?
| 799 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:50:20pm |
re: #798 WindUpBird
also, how does a tax hike on private individuals with lots of discretionary income change the business climate?
WUB, Quinn didn't raise taxes on just high-income people; Illinois has a flat income tax, so he raised taxes on everyone. He also raised the business income tax. Does that answer your question?
| 800 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:50:20pm |
There is a new thread, this one is dying, so before I go here's a video I love. I had a major crush on Nena when I was stationed there in 1983-84. She's still hot now.
| 801 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:52:15pm |
re: #799 Dark_Falcon
WUB, Quinn didn't raise taxes on just high-income people; Illinois has a flat income tax, so he raised taxes on everyone. He also raised the business income tax. Does that answer your question?
Didn't sales taxes also get raised?
| 802 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:53:48pm |
| 803 |
engineer cat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:55:37pm |
re: #798 WindUpBird
also, how does a tax hike on private individuals with lots of discretionary income change the business climate?
socialist germany and italy sell fewer porsches and lamborghinis
but seriously, i recall in 1993 when people still ascribed to the dogmatic belief, taxes up, economy down, taxes down, economy up. therefore, clinton raising taxes was undeniably going to lead to a deep recession
you would think that the empirical result of the 50s - 60s and 90s would make some impression on people
| 804 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:55:46pm |
re: #802 Dark_Falcon
No, the state sales tax rate was not changed.
OK...Guess I can still travel there every once in a while. You guys already have higher sales taxes than WI. Probably it was a good idea to leave that alone.
| 805 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 10:58:09pm |
The budget shortfall in question is approximately 140 million dollars. The 3.6 billion is for the 2 year budget for the years 2011-2013. The gap Walker is trying to close is for the 140 million dollars. Herein lies the problem. Walker antagonistically singled out the unions and more particularly the teachers unions without consultation or input from said same state workers. He also threatened and plans to close all future collective bargaining with these unions.
This is rightly being identified by the unions members as union busting. Instead of taking a full spectrum approach Walker decided to use this opportunity to not only dismantle a decades longs system in which many state workers rely upon for their livelihood (mortgage payments, bill, rent, child care, health, etc.) but he made it his sole and only method of publicizing his intent to close the 140 million dollar hole. This is a complete and utter public relations failure on Walkers part and indicates his amateurish leadership in his second month in office.
My suggestion to Walker would be to a) start over; b) consult with your state employees (i.e. the unions); and c) include a wide spectrum of cuts which can include state workers and must also include police and firemen. Everyone must share in the burden and no one except the elderly, infirmed, and the poor should be exempt.
| 806 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:08:00pm |
re: #799 Dark_Falcon
WUB, Quinn didn't raise taxes on just high-income people; Illinois has a flat income tax, so he raised taxes on everyone. He also raised the business income tax. Does that answer your question?
How much did he raise it and how? Business climate is a hell of a lot more than a hike in a tax they're already paying. I run a business, my taxes locally have gone up, but my "climate" is identical.
| 807 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:08:30pm |
re: #803 engineer dog
socialist germany and italy sell fewer porsches and lamborghinis
but seriously, i recall in 1993 when people still ascribed to the dogmatic belief, taxes up, economy down, taxes down, economy up. therefore, clinton raising taxes was undeniably going to lead to a deep recession
you would think that the empirical result of the 50s - 60s and 90s would make some impression on people
Ideology is a powerful drug
| 808 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:08:35pm |
re: #805 Gus 802
That ~3 billion dollar number has been in place ever since Tommy Thompson left town over a decade ago. Walker walked into office and cut taxes immediately enlarging his deficit.
| 809 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:11:23pm |
re: #799 Dark_Falcon
WUB, Quinn didn't raise taxes on just high-income people; Illinois has a flat income tax, so he raised taxes on everyone. He also raised the business income tax. Does that answer your question?
With the state budget deficit projected to hit $15 billion in 2011, and debt spiraling out of control, the Democrats who control the Legislature in early 2011 raised the personal income tax from 3% to 5%, and the corporation profits tax 4.8% to 7%. Governor Quinn's office projected the new taxes will generate $6.8 billion a year, enough to balance the annual budget and begin reducing the state's backlog of about $8.5 billion in unpaid bills.[34]
4.8% to seven percent!
HOW WILL THEY SURVIVE
| 810 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:12:01pm |
re: #805 Gus 802
I'm sure that more will be 'singled out' in Walker's upcoming biennial budget. I know you think it is a complete PR failure, but honestly he has been winning the PR battle to date. Amongst the committed left and unions, yeah. But they were never his supporters. Both sides are really digging in.
Not everyone agrees that unions for state employees are a good idea. FDR cautioned against it, and not all current left leaning people think government employee unions are a great idea.
Wisconsin: The Hemlock Revolution, Joe Klein
Public employees unions are an interesting hybrid. Industrial unions are organized against the might and greed of ownership. Public employees unions are organized against the might and greed...of the public?
| 811 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:13:11pm |
re: #810 BryanS
I'm sure that more will be 'singled out' in Walker's upcoming biennial budget. I know you think it is a complete PR failure, but honestly he has been winning the PR battle to date. Amongst the committed left and unions, yeah. But they were never his supporters. Both sides are really digging in.
Not everyone agrees that unions for state employees are a good idea. FDR cautioned against it, and not all current left leaning people think government employee unions are a great idea.
I think unions are critical to a modern society where humans are empowered, period
| 812 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:13:36pm |
re: #809 WindUpBird
4.8% to seven percent!
HOW WILL THEY SURVIVE
On profits only. So, as a matter of FACT, it can't put any business under, because any business that is on the verge won't have to pay it, because they won't have profits.
| 813 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:14:44pm |
re: #812 Fozzie Bear
On profits only. So, as a matter of FACT, it can't put any business under, because any business that is on the verge won't have to pay it, because they won't have profits.
HOW WILL THEY SURVIVE
POOR POOOR ILLINOIS, PAT QUINN IS MURDERING IT!!!
Once again, thehyperbole doesn't match the truth
| 814 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:16:35pm |
re: #810 BryanS
And public employee unions are organized against the might of politicians who manipulate the public, which is exactly what is happening now
Seems as clear as day to me. What is happening in Wisconsin is EXACTLY WHY UNIONS ARE NECESSARY IN GOVERNMENT
| 815 |
Ben G. Hazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:17:43pm |
| 816 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:18:51pm |
re: #811 WindUpBird
I think unions are critical to a modern society where humans are empowered, period
I understand your point of view, and agree unions have made significant contributions to the work place. However unions for government employees get to vote in their bosses. In the case of the government, the employer-employee relationship is not at all what it is for a private company.
These union contracts in WI were a hot potato issue. The outgoing Dem governor tried to cram the contracts in the very last week of the year after the election. Republicans and some members in his own party --including the Dem leader of the Senate-- blocked that action.
It was a cute stunt where the unions tried to block Walker from having any say on their agreements, including the stunt where Dems had to spring one of their members from jail to vote and pass the agreements in the Assembly--and leads us to where we are now in Wisconsin.
| 817 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:19:44pm |
re: #810 BryanS
I'm sure that more will be 'singled out' in Walker's upcoming biennial budget. I know you think it is a complete PR failure, but honestly he has been winning the PR battle to date. Amongst the committed left and unions, yeah. But they were never his supporters. Both sides are really digging in.
Not everyone agrees that unions for state employees are a good idea. FDR cautioned against it, and not all current left leaning people think government employee unions are a great idea.
Well. I still think as a nation we've spread ourselves way to thin. And by that I mean the empire or whatever we want to call it that we've attempted to sustain and monitor throughout the world. Yes, I realize this is taking me into Paulian territory but that's how I see it. We are paying the price in Wisconsin, California and other states in order to finance our position as "leader of the free world". And yes this includes the trillions we are spending in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are sacrificing our citizens and way of life in order to sustain this quest which cannot be sustained without major tax hikes all across the board.
| 818 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:22:10pm |
re: #814 WindUpBird
And public employee unions are organized against the might of politicians who manipulate the public, which is exactly what is happening now
Seems as clear as day to me. What is happening in Wisconsin is EXACTLY WHY UNIONS ARE NECESSARY IN GOVERNMENT
You have that wrong--they are corrupting of the political process because they have undue influence on elections. When their side 'wins', there is not an unbiased member representing the people and the government to negotiate with the unions.
I say again, the stunt to cram union contracts in at the last minute by former governor Doyle did not go over well with many in the state. The PR battle is not being won here by the unions except among their true believers.
| 819 |
engineer cat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:22:59pm |
re: #814 WindUpBird
And public employee unions are organized against the might of politicians who manipulate the public, which is exactly what is happening now
Seems as clear as day to me. What is happening in Wisconsin is EXACTLY WHY UNIONS ARE NECESSARY IN GOVERNMENT
Public employees unions are organized against the might and greed...of the public
so some conservative please tell me, if they are in serious reaction against the overwhelming and overweening power of Big Government, why wouldn't they be in favor of the poor overwhelmed american workers banding together in a union to counterbalance this daemon?
| 820 |
Ben G. Hazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:23:07pm |
re: #82 laZardo
If this is the way you're gonna act, piss off.
| 821 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:23:35pm |
re: #817 Gus 802
Well. I still think as a nation we've spread ourselves way to thin. And by that I mean the empire or whatever we want to call it that we've attempted to sustain and monitor throughout the world. Yes, I realize this is taking me into Paulian territory but that's how I see it. We are paying the price in Wisconsin, California and other states in order to finance our position as "leader of the free world". And yes this includes the trillions we are spending in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are sacrificing our citizens and way of life in order to sustain this quest which cannot be sustained without major tax hikes all across the board.
We do need to have strong defenses, but I think speak softly, carry a big stick would be a good policy to get back to.
| 822 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:24:53pm |
re: #818 BryanS
That is not the experience I'm having. I hear alot of support for the teachers.
| 823 |
sagehen Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:26:14pm |
re: #818 BryanS
You have that wrong--they are corrupting of the political process because they have undue influence on elections. When their side 'wins', there is not an unbiased member representing the people and the government to negotiate with the unions.
I say again, the stunt to cram union contracts in at the last minute by former governor Doyle did not go over well with many in the state. The PR battle is not being won here by the unions except among their true believers.
And you think people who win after unlimited corporate spending... are "unbiased"??!?!?!!!
| 824 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:26:29pm |
re: #817 Gus 802
Well. I still think as a nation we've spread ourselves way to thin. And by that I mean the empire or whatever we want to call it that we've attempted to sustain and monitor throughout the world. Yes, I realize this is taking me into Paulian territory but that's how I see it. We are paying the price in Wisconsin, California and other states in order to finance our position as "leader of the free world". And yes this includes the trillions we are spending in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are sacrificing our citizens and way of life in order to sustain this quest which cannot be sustained without major tax hikes all across the board.
THIS.
It's only Paulian territory if you then advocate gutting EVERYTHING in service to ideology. We just can't afford our empire any more. About that one issue, Paul is entirely correct. Unfortunately, he is way off the reservation in most other areas.
| 825 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:26:52pm |
re: #821 BryanS
We do need to have strong defenses, but I think speak softly, carry a big stick would be a good policy to get back to.
Defense is one thing. Being the world's keeper is another. Right now we're the latter. If this is the case then I might actually believe there should be an international tax payed to the United States. How much do the Arab states pay to USA to keep their shipping lanes open by way of the 5th Fleets? How much did we "collect" during the Cold War in protecting Europe? People like to talk about the United Nations but in fact we act as a defacto bilateral version of the UN.
| 826 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:27:42pm |
re: #818 BryanS
You have that wrong--they are corrupting of the political process because they have undue influence on elections. When their side 'wins', there is not an unbiased member representing the people and the government to negotiate with the unions.
I say again, the stunt to cram union contracts in at the last minute by former governor Doyle did not go over well with many in the state. The PR battle is not being won here by the unions except among their true believers.
Public pay is on par or less than the private industry in Wisconsin.
| 827 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:28:51pm |
How much does South Korea pay the USA for defending them from the North Koreans? How about Japan? Answer: zero dollars. Instead that burden is placed on the American citizenry.
| 828 |
Four More Tears Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:30:35pm |
re: #827 Gus 802
How much does South Korea pay the USA for defending them from the North Koreans? How about Japan? Answer: zero dollars. Instead that burden is placed on the American citizenry.
Heh. Donald Trump of all people was suggesting that we start taxing our protectorates.
| 829 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:31:15pm |
re: #823 sagehen
And you think people who win after unlimited corporate spending... are "unbiased"??!?!?!!!
No, the other side is not unbiased. However my point still stands. When politicians are elected to office with the support of unions, there is no longer an adversarial position between the employer and employee for government workers. The whole point and rationale for unions is that two opposing sides have to negotiate an agreement on compensation and terms of employment. When unions gets to vote their boss into office, that adversarial relationship breaks down.
And let's not forget the strength of the unions and Democrats in the state of Wisconsin over the past number of decades. Most would not realize that under current state law, if a teachers union demands binding arbitration, the MINIMUM raise they are entitled to under any arbitration ruling is 5%.
| 830 |
engineer cat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:31:39pm |
re: #828 JasonA
Heh. Donald Trump of all people was suggesting that we start taxing our protectorates.
donald trump is way too much of a "liberal" for the teabaggers to digest
| 831 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:32:00pm |
re: #829 BryanS
Teacher salaries have been capped for over a decade.
| 832 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:32:04pm |
Ultimately, the biggest challenge we face economically is the coming energy crisis. We are at or approaching peak oil production. Demand is rising exponentially, and output hasn't risen since 2004-2005.
We are in some serious shit right now, and most people don't even realize that it isn't because of budgets. It's more fundamental than that.
A gallon of gas contains the coloric energy of about 700 man-hours of physical labor. That means that the ceiling for the value of gas is somewhere around 700*8=5600 dollars, assuming a modest wage for labor. This is a HUGE problem, that we aren't dealing with at all, and it will absolutely destroy the global economy if we don't.
On the other hand, it'll solve the unemployment problem, lol.
| 833 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:32:35pm |
re: #828 JasonA
Heh. Donald Trump of all people was suggesting that we start taxing our protectorates.
Heard about that. It makes sense really. Not only do we pay for 100 percent of that defense through our forces but we also pay a good sum in military aid to their forces.
| 834 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:33:11pm |
re: #822 Amory Blaine
That is not the experience I'm having. I hear alot of support for the teachers.
That's because the protesters are the loudest. In part, it depends upon where you live as well.
| 836 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:35:55pm |
re: #826 Amory Blaine
Public pay is on par or less than the private industry in Wisconsin.
I don't think that's the case when benefits are included in total compensation. Retirement benefits in particular are very phat for public employees. And beyond the very low to zero dollars contributed to health care costs currently, the plans they get are very expensive plans compared to what most in the private sector get.
| 837 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:36:55pm |
re: #827 Gus 802
How much does South Korea pay the USA for defending them from the North Koreans? How about Japan? Answer: zero dollars. Instead that burden is placed on the American citizenry.
Perhaps we can wind down WWII and let Japan/Germany defend themselves?
| 838 |
Ben G. Hazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:37:51pm |
| 839 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:38:25pm |
re: #837 BryanS
Perhaps we can wind down WWII and let Japan/Germany defend themselves?
Yes. And it's long overdue. Let them pick up their own tab for once.
| 840 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:38:41pm |
re: #836 BryanS
It is the case that Wisconsin public employees make less than private workers. With the benefit put in.
| 841 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:38:52pm |
re: #837 BryanS
Perhaps we can wind down WWII and let Japan/Germany defend themselves?
It would make more sense than defunding the federal government, wouldn't it?
| 842 |
Four More Tears Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:39:04pm |
re: #833 Gus 802
Heard about that. It makes sense really. Not only do we pay for 100 percent of that defense through our forces but we also pay a good sum in military aid to their forces.
Seems like we still have a Cold War mentality. We must be the defenders of liberty and freedom against.... I dunno anymore. Yeah, South Korea's in a precarious position, but how many other countries need us there nowadays?
| 843 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:39:17pm |
re: #831 Amory Blaine
Teacher salaries have been capped for over a decade.
Wrong. Budgets have been capped. Binding arbitration rules over the past decade have guaranteed a minimum 5% raise for teachers. So, what has happened is that budgets get crunched and class sizes increased to deal with that bargaining power the unions have while having to meet budget caps.
| 844 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:40:48pm |
re: #843 BryanS
Wrong. Budgets have been capped. Binding arbitration rules over the past decade have guaranteed a minimum 5% raise for teachers. So, what has happened is that budgets get crunched and class sizes increased to deal with that bargaining power the unions have while having to meet budget caps.
You are wrong. The QEO has capped state teacher salaries since the 90s. I put in a link, did you see it?
| 845 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:42:30pm |
re: #842 JasonA
Seems like we still have a Cold War mentality. We must be the defenders of liberty and freedom against... I dunno anymore. Yeah, South Korea's in a precarious position, but how many other countries need us there nowadays?
Certainly not Germany or Japan. I'd be happy if we withdrew from nations that are doing better than us economically, and aren't in any imminent danger. Even drawing down over 5-10 years so they can build up their own defenses would be fine, imo.
| 846 |
Ben G. Hazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:42:48pm |
| 847 |
Spocomptonite Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:43:18pm |
re: #237 lostlakehiker
Wisconsin is in very deep financial trouble, and paying teachers something like 100 000 a year in wages and benefits is more than irksome to the general run of the public that makes less than half that while working just as hard and having just as good an education. It's unsustainable.
My community recently went through a debate over the bus system and it's union, and the right wing arguments against it were carbon copies of what you just said. They pointed out that bus drivers made over $70,000 in wages and benefits. Technically, they were correct, but they left out something to relate it to. I'd be surprised if anyone who has a salary and benefits knows how much, exactly, their benefits cost per year, so when people hear "$70,000 to drive a bus!" they immediately relate that to their salary, and then make up some number that grossly underestimates their benefits and then reach the conclusion bus drivers (or in your case, teachers) are overpaid.
Well, I actually did some research to be able to relate myself to any "wages plus benefits" mumbo jumbo. I found comparable benefits that my entry-level, straight-out-of-high-school job at a grocery wholesaler gave me, and they were more than what they paid me in salary. Combined, they were more than those bus drivers. And they are a lot more than teachers. Is my grocery bagging worth more to society than, say, paratransit drivers or the people shaping the minds of the next generation? Apparently yes, but I don't think it should be. They have to go through training and school, I didn't.
Besides, even though I would be totally fine with teachers getting $100k in wages and benefits that no one can relate to because they totally deserve it, I greatly dispute your numbers. And if by some weird fluke they are correct, then this is just one more reason to have some sort of national health care system: universal health care demonstrably reduces the costs of health care everywhere else on earth, and it will reduce the costs of public union benefits to taxpayers without violating their constitutional rights.
| 848 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:43:32pm |
re: #842 JasonA
Seems like we still have a Cold War mentality. We must be the defenders of liberty and freedom against... I dunno anymore. Yeah, South Korea's in a precarious position, but how many other countries need us there nowadays?
It sound good and noble in theory but we can no longer sustain these activities without placing a further undue burden on the American people. South Korea is fully capable of defending itself and if push comes to shove we can provide them aid as the need arises. There's no real need to have us there available at a moments notices to provide them a defense which is their responsibility. South Korea is a rather wealthy and industrious country that is also capable of increasing their own defense needs above where it stands now. That same talk of personal responsibility also applies to their own responsibility for their own defense.
| 849 |
Ben G. Hazi Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:45:49pm |
| 850 |
engineer cat Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:46:29pm |
re: #843 BryanS
Wrong. Budgets have been capped. Binding arbitration rules over the past decade have guaranteed a minimum 5% raise for teachers. So, what has happened is that budgets get crunched and class sizes increased to deal with that bargaining power the unions have while having to meet budget caps.
i like the amount of detail you have on this question, but in the end do you really think that teacher's salaries are high enough to attract people of the caliber that we need for the vital task of educating and socializing our young people
my opinion is that salaries and the quality of primary school teachers is inadequate in this country
| 851 |
Four More Tears Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:47:51pm |
re: #848 Gus 802
It sound good and noble in theory but we can no longer sustain these activities without placing a further undue burden on the American people. South Korea is fully capable of defending itself and if push comes to shove we can provide them aid as the need arises. There's no real need to have us there available at a moments notices to provide them a defense which is their responsibility. South Korea is a rather wealthy and industrious country that is also capable of increasing their own defense needs above where it stands now. That same talk of personal responsibility also applies to their own responsibility for their own defense.
Yeah, I'm not going to argue against that. They just seem to have a greater need, a more eminent threat, than any other nation where we have significant numbers. Our days of digging in to defend Europe from the Reds should've been done with about ten years ago, I think...
| 852 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:49:00pm |
re: #851 JasonA
Yeah, I'm not going to argue against that. They just seem to have a greater need, a more eminent threat, than any other nation where we have significant numbers. Our days of digging in to defend Europe from the Reds should've been done with about ten years ago, I think...
Our defense industry is a beast, and the beast has to be fed. Eisenhower warned us about this.
| 853 |
Four More Tears Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:49:48pm |
re: #852 Fozzie Bear
Our defense industry is a beast, and the beast has to be fed. Eisenhower warned us about this.
Damn Liberals don't take this stuff seriously enough.
/
| 854 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:49:49pm |
re: #845 Fozzie Bear
Certainly not Germany or Japan. I'd be happy if we withdrew from nations that are doing better than us economically, and aren't in any imminent danger. Even drawing down over 5-10 years so they can build up their own defenses would be fine, imo.
Japan is currently the number three economic power. Yet they're still flying aged F-4J Phantoms. Although those are outnumbered by the F-15Js. All American products of course but built under license by Mitsubishi. We're also still bound by the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan which was signed in 1960. Many of the post-WWII worries remain and many are completely outdated.
| 855 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:49:51pm |
re: #844 Amory Blaine
You are wrong. The QEO has capped state teacher salaries since the 90s. I put in a link, did you see it?
Yes, I did see it, but I think there are some important facts about the QEO you need to know. Looked up an article for you
[Link: www.jsonline.com...]
Specifically, the QEO says districts can avoid going to arbitration for teacher negotiations so long as they offer their teachers a 3.8% annual increase in pay and benefits.
The Doyle admin was able to raise that 3.8% floor to 5%.
| 856 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:51:14pm |
re: #851 JasonA
Yeah, I'm not going to argue against that. They just seem to have a greater need, a more eminent threat, than any other nation where we have significant numbers. Our days of digging in to defend Europe from the Reds should've been done with about ten years ago, I think...
I have confidence that the South Koreans can do it one their own. Not only one their own but they can exceed the capabilities of the North Koreans on their own. We'll always be there if they need us.
| 857 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:51:35pm |
re: #855 BryanS
And the teacher's union is and has been willing to negotiate for lower COLA's. The governor refused to negotiate. He's rather break up the union.
The term for that refusal is "bad faith".
| 858 |
Four More Tears Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:51:39pm |
re: #854 Gus 802
Japan is currently the number three economic power. Yet they're still flying aged F-4J Phantoms. Although those are outnumbered by the F-15Js. All American products of course but built under license by Mitsubishi. We're also still bound by the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan which was signed in 1960. Many of the post-WWII worries remain and many are completely outdated.
They should be defended by giant robots by now.
/
| 859 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:51:57pm |
re: #847 Spocomptonite
Funny thing about bus drivers--in Madison, the highest paid employees were a couple bus drivers paid more than $150k in salary and overtime--more than the mayor got paid. Union rules dictated that whoever had the most seniority had priority for any available overtime.
| 860 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:52:17pm |
re: #858 JasonA
They should be defended by giant robots by now.
/
And Godzilla or Mothra. One would think.
| 862 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:54:47pm |
re: #855 BryanS
Yes, I did see it, but I think there are some important facts about the QEO you need to know. Looked up an article for you
[Link: www.jsonline.com...]
The Doyle admin was able to raise that 3.8% floor to 5%.
So Walker is correct in removing collective bargaining rights for teachers? Teachers that have had a ~3 percent cap on their compensation for almost twenty years?
Wow a 1.2% increase is reason to declare war on the teachers. Not in my book.
| 863 |
Gus Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:55:37pm |
The Japanese government paid 217 billion Yen (US$ 2.0 billion) in 2007 as annual host-nation support called Omoiyari Yosan (思いやり予算?, sympathy budget or compassion budget).
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Gee, that was nice. But what about the other years?
I can't even paste the list of US facilities in Japan. And here's a country that is number three in world economies.
| 864 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:55:56pm |
re: #688 webevintage
I should say that while the R's have done a good job of helping piss me off today it was a troll on a local blog who inferred that I would be cool with my son (if he was younger) having sex with a teacher (statutory rape) because I said I felt bad for a high school math teacher here (single mother) who got fired because she got caught up in a sting operation working on the side as a call girl.
It was just so offensive and such a personal attack.
if we were face to face I would have slapped him it was such a nasty thing to say.
That's a lousy thing to say, and also totally beside the point. This woman wasn't committing statutory rape, she was working as a call girl. I assume her clients were grown-ups.
| 865 |
BryanS Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:56:37pm |
re: #850 engineer dog
i like the amount of detail you have on this question, but in the end do you really think that teacher's salaries are high enough to attract people of the caliber that we need for the vital task of educating and socializing our young people
my opinion is that salaries and the quality of primary school teachers is inadequate in this country
Starting teacher salaries suck balls. That is the fault --in Wisconsin that's WEAC-- of the teachers unions step pay system. Starting salaries are typically in the low $20ks in this state (plus benefits). While someone puts in their time, by 20 years or so $50-$60k is not unusual. WEAC has opposed at every turn any modification to a pay system that screws new entrants into the field. New teachers get zero job protection--in fact, worse than that. No matter their skill, whoever has the least time in is the very first let go. Literally, a teacher hired one day later than a colleague will be let go if positions are reduced nomatter the capabilities of either teacher.
| 866 |
BryanS Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:01:59am |
re: #857 Fozzie Bear
And the teacher's union is and has been willing to negotiate for lower COLA's. The governor refused to negotiate. He's rather break up the union.
The term for that refusal is "bad faith".
Bad faith is colluding with the outgoing governor to try to cram through contracts so that Walker would be hamstrung for his term to control labor costs. That's exactly what happened before Walker took office. Let's not forget some of the context of what lead to this point.
What the unions tried to pull with some Dems--not all, as I stated above even the Dem leader of the state senate voted to oppose the contracts--it was shameful. The Dems had to spring a member form jail to vote for this union snowjob to pass the assembly. When the Dem leader of the state senate voted against it, his party unceremoniously stripped him of his post and tried again to pass it. The spokesperson for the unions went out to the press and gave a one sentence statement calling the then former Dem leader a whore--refused any other comment so that press had to quote him saying only that.
That's some of the context .
| 867 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:04:41am |
re: #737 marjoriemoon
Everybody, but everybody has a cat named either
Butch
Zoe
Smokeyat some point in their lives :)
The only cat I have ever had--he was actually my parents' cat, but he let me hang around--was named Clarence.
But one of my college friend-of-friends had a cat named Zoe.
Zoe was found in an alley in Berkeley, taped into a box. Some scumbag put a tiny black kitten in a box, taped it shut and abandoned it. Thank God, a passing Mills College chick heard the box crying, and stopped.
I don't get on with this woman. There was Drama, and we Do Not Speak. But she's going to heaven because she saved Zoe. End Of Story.
| 868 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:05:26am |
re: #738 Gus 802
What?
Damascus. St. Paul was struck blind on the road to there, and then he believed in climate change.
//Didn't you ever go to Sunday School?
| 869 |
BryanS Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:05:32am |
re: #862 Amory Blaine
So Walker is correct in removing collective bargaining rights for teachers? Teachers that have had a ~3 percent cap on their compensation for almost twenty years?
Wow a 1.2% increase is reason to declare war on the teachers. Not in my book.
3.8%...and then 5%...was the MINIMUM. Unions often negotiated pay increases in excess of that when they managed to pack school boards with their supporters.
| 870 |
Amory Blaine Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:07:07am |
re: #869 BryanS
Not in my district. People cry about every penny. I know of no school board in the state throwing money at teachers.
| 871 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:07:18am |
re: #748 Lidane
If I ever have a gray cat I'll name it Smokey, but until then I've only got a Sushi and a Bruce. Before them, I had a Sam and a Boopsie. :D
Friend of mine had goldfish named Ginger and Wasabi. Wasabi died recently, so they got another one, who is called Sencha.
Interestingly, 'Sencha' was selected by said friend's four-year-old daughter, and we are not clear if she knew this was a Japanese tea variety when she picked it, since my friend did not, and thought it was just an invented word.
| 872 |
Gus Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:08:27am |
re: #868 SanFranciscoZionist
Damascus. St. Paul was struck blind on the road to there, and then he believed in climate change.
//Didn't you ever go to Sunday School?
Nope. I also never made Communion. What struck me of course was the line about imposing "yet another level of political correctness". Maybe he was being sarcastic. In any event he never responded.
| 873 |
BryanS Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:14:10am |
re: #870 Amory Blaine
Not in my district. People cry about every penny. I know of no school board in the state throwing money at teachers.
Usually it was benefits where value of increases was hidden. That is one of the reasons Walker wanted to strip the ability to negotiate benefits. It's easy to hide or disguise what kind of increase is negotiated--how do you value an option to retire earlier as a percentage increase over current compensation? Not particularly easily.
| 875 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:15:45am |
re: #763 marjoriemoon
We have a gray cat who was the runt of his litter. The neighbor cat is "Smokey" (see what I'm saying??) so we named him PeeWee. Now he's the biggest cat we have.
And he's scary. He's a mass of muscle and glares at you through half closed eyes. He yowls when he wants to eat. But he's such a pussycat, very sweet. Even so, he freaks me and my husband out. He looks like he can rip your face off.
People I know have, or have had, cats called:
Patches
Charlemagne
Nefertari
Jessie Diana
Isis
Hecate
Jerry
My college housemate had a cat we named Alexander Nevsky, and called Sasha.
It was some time before I realized that she thought that Nevsky was a ballet dancer, rather than a medieval warrior prince. I never corrected her.
There were some issues with the cat, the key one being that he'd come from an abusive home, and much preferred men to women, which made living in an apartment full of women fairly trying for him. When people's boyfriends came over, he would track them from room to room, and sit on them.
When her oldest son was born, he turned out to be allergic to the cat, which was a blessing for the cat, since he was given away to a gay male couple with a beautiful apartment, into which Sasha settled with a nearly audible sigh of relief. (Finally got away from the hippie chicks.) When my friend called a couple of weeks later to see how he was doing, assuming that he must be pining for her, his new people assured her that he didn't really seem to notice she was gone.
| 879 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:18:40am |
| 881 |
Gus Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:22:13am |
re: #880 Varek Raith
Silly nutter.
Weird no? I mean he said that and then sat there and said nothing.
| 882 |
Varek Raith Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:25:41am |
re: #881 Gus 802
Weird no? I mean he said that and then sat there and said nothing.
He seems to do that a lot.
| 883 |
Gus Sat, Feb 19, 2011 12:27:01am |
re: #882 Varek Raith
He seems to do that a lot.
Really? I noticed he never hangs out in the open threads and does mostly the links thing. VDH over and over again.
Maybe he's shy. ;) LOL
| 885 |
abolitionist Sat, Feb 19, 2011 1:17:14am |
re: #25 BigPapa
Collective bargaining not copacetic with public service but with private?
re: #15 Dark_Falcon
No. I've made clear on more than on occasion that I have no objection to collective bargaining by private sector unions. It is public sector unions that i object to. I believe they corrupt the political process and have dragged Wisconsin and Illinois into deep financial peril.
I'm inclined to agree w DF here.
When a union's interests are too seriously at odds with those of a private business or corporation, that business generally has the option of closing up shop, as a last resort. If you replace "business interest" with "public interest" that option of closing up shop doesn't exist --unless you consider a mass exodus to be a viable remedy.
| 886 |
laZardo Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:09:06am |
There was once a time when American workers didn't put up with all the bullshit their bosses put them through, and fought tooth and nail for their rights in court or on the streets. Not because they hated the country or their institutions, but because they wanted a better place to make their living. So they could go to work and come home alive and intact and knowing they were productively contributing not just to "society's greater good" but that of themselves, their families, their community. So they wouldn't have to be drawn in to the cycles of crime and violence that gripped the neighborhoods they often didn't choose to settle in.
So that they and their children could live the American Dream they had arrived by the shipload for.
We can't go back to that time, not physically. And perhaps, it can be argued that some of them have "lost their way." But we can damn well evoke its spirit when need be. And that is why this time seems so familiar.
Good evening, folks.
I regret nothing.
| 887 |
Amory Blaine Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:16:15am |
re: #873 BryanS
Usually it was benefits where value of increases was hidden. That is one of the reasons Walker wanted to strip the ability to negotiate benefits. It's easy to hide or disguise what kind of increase is negotiated--how do you value an option to retire earlier as a percentage increase over current compensation? Not particularly easily.
Can you provide a link showing where teacher compensation was hidden and where is the rule that says the teachers were entitled to retire earlier?
| 888 |
boxhead Sat, Feb 19, 2011 3:21:20am |
re: #886 laZardo
This assault on workers rights seems to have started when a certain B movie actor got elected. The noise machine picked up the cause. Now, as Americans' jobs are sent offshore, the noise machine backs the removal of any workers protections saying that corps won't hire with those protections. But as we all see.... jobs move offshore, large corps avoid taxes, and wanting to stand up for American workers is viewed as commie. Unions can be wrong, so can management. That is why we must have honest negotiations. Demonizing one or the other is dumb ass.
alas.. it is late, I am feeling very cynical, thus I am finding hard to see a path to a positive outcome.....
| 889 |
Obdicut Sat, Feb 19, 2011 4:05:46am |
re: #829 BryanS
N The whole point and rationale for unions is that two opposing sides have to negotiate an agreement on compensation and terms of employment. When unions gets to vote their boss into office, that adversarial relationship breaks down.
This is false for two reasons:
1. The whole point and rationale of unions is as a curb against management abuse, not natural antagonism with them. There are unions with good relationships with management. The relationship between labor and management can be-- should be, according to Smith-- mutually beneficial.
2. You are putting it as though unions alone get to vote their 'boss' into office. This is false. This is like saying that unions where union members own stock and so can vote on board memberships are broken as well.
| 890 |
Hengineer Sat, Feb 19, 2011 7:05:23am |
I know I'm way too late for the party.
The problem with arguments like this is you're either black or white.
I'm firmly entrenched somewhere in the gray, and that' means the white crowd is going to paint me as black and the black crowd will paint me as white.
States nationwide have budget deficits, many of them so far gone it will literally take a miracle (figuratively for the entire state to "Brown bag it") for a few years to try an come back. However doing so means many people, programs and issues will do without state funds. That means anyone who "depends" on those funds will find their money cut.
Am I for collective bargaining rights? Hell yes, I think collective bargaining in the general really does protect individual workers from abuses. Do I agree that unions as they have evolved today are the answer? Hell no, the situation isn't the same as the early 1900's when Unions were a necessity. There are laws on the books that protect workers. Most of them aggresively protect public-sector workers who literally have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone is a worthless piece of shit who never should have been hired, and it can still be thrown out by judges who will find for the "worthless piece of shit who never should've been hired", and find the company (or in this case state government) at fault, awarding all kinds of damages, ALL PAID FOR BY TAXES.
In many of today's modern unions, they have become political fodder for the Democratic Party, and are actively as corrupt and backward as the corporations they claim are so evil themselves.
Personal Example: I am a Merchant Mariner. My wages and such are protected by the Marine Engineers Beneficial Association (MEBA), a Union of Marine Engineers. However I work for Military Sealift Command, for the US Navy, and its a right-to-work condition. So I don't pay any Union dues, nore do I care to. I get FEDERAL benefits, and FEDERAL job protection. I've had many a conversation with other Mariners I work with who have sailed for the union, and they have told me many a story of corruptness. If you contribute to the Union's "Political Action Fund", then your personnel folder gets a yellow sticker, meaning you can get priority for some sailing jobs that someone without that sticker can get. If you sail for AMO (American Maritime Officers), an off-shoot of MEBA District 2 (there's some bad blood there), they work on a detailer system, and if you send the detailer some gifts then they will offer you the better ships, the better positions.
Long story short, I'm not against collective bargaining at all, yet I'm against the practices of many of today's modern unions. So while I wholeheartedly dislike the Governor of Wisconson's actions specific to collective bargaining, I'm giving him much respect for having the balls to put it out there out front and being the first Politician Nationwide to actually DO SOMETHING that will destroy him politically to balance budgets, whether I agree with it or not.
| 891 |
Obdicut Sat, Feb 19, 2011 7:08:25am |
re: #890 Hengineer
Why aren't you bothering to evaluate what he's doing in terms of, you know, actual efficacy, and what effects it'll have?
I mean, we could solve the budget crisis by seizing private property, too. That'd destroy someone politically. Would you applaud that person, too?
| 892 |
Hengineer Sat, Feb 19, 2011 7:16:58am |
re: #891 Obdicut
Why aren't you bothering to evaluate what he's doing in terms of, you know, actual efficacy, and what effects it'll have?
I mean, we could solve the budget crisis by seizing private property, too. That'd destroy someone politically. Would you applaud that person, too?
The thing is, many of the protections of why workers needed to form unions in the first place are now in place by LAW, so in my opinion removing collective bargaining isn't going back to the stone age anymore, whereas siezing private property literally is a step towards fascism.
Stop using the logical fallacy of taking my argument, blowing it out of proportion, then by making arguments against the blown out of proportion argument you successfuly defeat my argument.
Besides, I never said I agreed with removing the collective bargaining part. It takes balls mind you, but I also didn't completely condemn it because of the situation of state and federal laws protecting workers anymore.
I would like to know what is constituted a right. Are rights only enumerated in the Constitutioin, such as the bill of rights? Or are there other rights that don't exist in the Constitution as well?
| 893 |
Obdicut Sat, Feb 19, 2011 7:40:35am |
re: #892 Hengineer
The thing is, many of the protections of why workers needed to form unions in the first place are now in place by LAW, so in my opinion removing collective bargaining isn't going back to the stone age anymore, whereas siezing private property literally is a step towards fascism.
I'm sorry, but what aspect of fascism involved seizing private property?
Stop using the logical fallacy of taking my argument, blowing it out of proportion, then by making arguments against the blown out of proportion argument you successfuly defeat my argument.
I'm not doing so. If you believe I am, please demonstrate how I am doing so.
Besides, I never said I agreed with removing the collective bargaining part. It takes balls mind you, but I also didn't completely condemn it because of the situation of state and federal laws protecting workers anymore.
And I never said you agreed with it. You did, however, say you applauded him for doing something, without regards to what the actual effects will be. That, to me, is deeply foolish.
I would like to know what is constituted a right. Are rights only enumerated in the Constitutioin, such as the bill of rights? Or are there other rights that don't exist in the Constitution as well?
That's kind of out of left field. There are other rights that aren't explicitly spelled out in the Constitution, yes. Why?
| 894 |
budda10000 Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:23:18am |
re: #121 wlewisiii
A majority of public employees are compensated appropriately for the "tradeoff" mentioned earlier between private and public employees. The only good debate I have heard against public union is that unlike private unions politicians have no real incentive to act in the taxpayers interest when negotiating with unions during good times. Here in CA prior to the recession if you opposed union pay or benefit hikes you lost a large junk of votes.. conversely if you supported them you didn't loose a whole lot of votes since the public is largely braindead to such issues when they have full pockets. The results(in CA) is a huge liability for union pensions and health care that is the primary budget item causing our debt. Raising taxes in a high tax state with 9-12% unemployment is unrealistic... Also having up to a 20% of the workforce working for the government is also unrealistic but CA managed it. CA also managed to have public employees getting paid 100k a yr for doing nothing until the day they die. Not many private sector jobs pay out like that... Stay in government long enough here and that was a certainty. I have to say that watching my bank acct dip while my university tuition skyrockets and public sector pay still going up makes me skeptical of public unions being oh so innocent(in CA atleast). I am against taking away collective bargaining but some form of the taxpayers interests needs to be better represented.
| 895 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:37:15am |
re: #736 MikeySDCA
If that's how you see this blog, why bother?
| 896 |
Obdicut Sat, Feb 19, 2011 10:37:55am |
re: #895 Sergey Romanov
If that's how you see this blog, why bother?
He needs somewhere to repost every single article Victor David Hanson ever writes.
| 897 |
Eclectic Infidel Sat, Feb 19, 2011 11:26:48am |
re: #736 MikeySDCA
Does this mean that Charles is going to impose yet another level of political correctness, on top of his opposition to the right and his road to Damascus conversion to AGW?
No, it means as usual, you'll have to defend your position without playing up the butthurt. It is that simple.
| 898 |
wrenchwench Sat, Feb 19, 2011 2:31:58pm |
re: #736 MikeySDCA
Does this mean that Charles is going to impose yet another level of political correctness, on top of his opposition to the right and his road to Damascus conversion to AGW?
You: No. of Pages posted: 2,838
Have any of your Pages ever been deleted?
I have to throw the whole Thesaurus at you:
The state or quality of being impudent or arrogantly self-confident: assumption, audaciousness, audacity, boldness, brashness, brazenness, cheek, cheekiness, discourtesy, disrespect, effrontery, face, familiarity, forwardness, gall, impertinence, impudence, impudency, incivility, insolence, nerve, nerviness, overconfidence, pertness, presumptuousness, pushiness, rudeness, sassiness, sauciness. Informal brass, crust, sauce, uppishness, uppityness. See courtesy/discourtesy.
| 899 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Feb 19, 2011 4:37:11pm |
re: #736 MikeySDCA
Does this mean that Charles is going to impose yet another level of political correctness, on top of his opposition to the right and his road to Damascus conversion to AGW?
Point of order the Road to Damascus conversion you are referring to was a question of faith involving the purely spiritual.
AGW is a question of facts, science, data and provable, reality in the physical world. It is scientific fact as solid as the scientific fact that the Earth is round.
AGW deniers are the only ones who show up to the table with no facts, no data, no mathematics and endless faith based assumptions that can not be proven by physical means. If you have some facts, data and science that can contradict the reality of AGW please bring it. People who actually know science will be glad to point out what you misunderstood. Of course, you have nothing but your own incorrect, factually flawed belief systems on the topic.
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