Chaos and Murder in Libya

Gaddafi has ‘declared war on the Libyan people’

WorldFebruary 2011 • Views: 21,325

Amid reports that Libyan security forces are using fighter jets and live ammunition on protesters marching on Gaddafi’s compound in Tripoli, Libya’s deputy ambassador to the United Nations told reporters today that Muammar Gaddafi has declared war on the Libyan people and is committing genocide.

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144 comments

Kragar Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:50:40am

Fucking jets on civilians? Holy shit.

albusteve Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:50:44am

"to the last bullet"
looks like that might come true for the Gaddafi boys

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:52:52am

Breaking stories:
2 Libyan fighter jets land in Malta
This would credence to the report of attack aircraft being used against the demonstrators, with these two pilots choosing to defect rather than participate.

Gaddafi Flees Tripoli
This has been updated during the last hour.

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:53:00am

I just saw something about 2 Air Force Colonels defecting from Libya to Malta. Any confirmation?

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:53:25am

re: #3 Shiplord Kirel

Guess that answers it.

Kragar Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:53:29am

Libyan jets, believed to be defecting, land in Malta

albusteve Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:53:34am

there will be weeks of retribution if the govt falls....look for some nasty stuff to go down

RogueOne Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:54:55am

More of that "realist" foreign policy.

British government approved sale of crowd control equipment to Libya
Foreign Office figures show export licences were valued at more than £200m over the first nine months of last year

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:55:41am

"to the last bullet"

I believe Ceausescu and the Hussein boys, Uday and Qusay, also said something like this.

shreck Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:56:53am

What a mess. I've read some army units are defecting as well.
The makings of a blood bath.

tigger2005 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:58:53am

If the opposition appeals to the U.N. for assistance and can provide evidence of genocide, I wonder if there's an obligation to step in...even though the regime may fall without outside help.

albusteve Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:59:00am

re: #9 Shiplord Kirel

"to the last bullet"

I believe Ceausescu and the Hussein boys, Uday and Qusay, also said something like this.

I'll say this for the Hussein boys...they did go down the hardest way, the allure of eternal raisins will do that

tigger2005 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:00:17am

re: #12 albusteve

I'll say this for the Hussein boys...they did go down the hardest way, the allure of eternal raisins will do that

I doubt they were true believers. They were just thugs trying to hold on to their lost power. It was all they knew.

Kragar Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:00:18am

re: #12 albusteve

I'll say this for the Hussein boys...they did go down the hardest way, the allure of eternal raisins will do that

Also, the whole fear of "If they do to us even a fraction of what we did to them" angle probably had something to do with it.

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:00:25am

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The jets seem to be Dassault Mirages, one of 12 fighters in flying condition in that country. They were first flown in the late 60's as prototypes, but weren't used in service until the 70's and 80's. They will be in use in France until 2014.

Kragar Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:01:23am

'Libyan soldiers defect to protesters’ side in Benghazi'

Habib al-Obaidi, who heads the intensive care unit at the city’s main Al-Jalae Hospital, and lawyer Muhammad al- Mana told Reuters that members of the “Thunderbolt” squad had arrived at the hospital with soldiers wounded in clashes with Gaddafi’s personal guard.

“They are now saying that they have overpowered the Praetorian Guard and that they have joined the people’s revolt,” Mana said by telephone.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:01:28am

re: #12 albusteve

I'll say this for the Hussein boys...they did go down the hardest way, the allure of eternal raisins will do that

I imagine any motivation of the "Q" family is totally political and financial, they are not looking to Allah for any advice.

Winny Spencer Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:02:10am

The ousting of Gadaffi/Khadaffi/Qadhafi is long overdue.

Fart Knocker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:02:15am

We are watching the world change at breakneck speeds. I hope there isn't more bloodshed, but fear we haven't seen the worst of it yet.

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:04:46am

Some people on Twitter are saying that Italian planes are doing action in Tripoli right now. Any truth to the rumours?

Obama needs to do something. This monster must be stopped.

Linden Arden Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:04:57am

BP is suspending oil production activity in Libya and leaving the country after all that wrangling and negotiation for those exploration rights.

Times are tough when a mafia-like Big Oil company can't get a break.

albusteve Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:05:52am

re: #20 ProLifeLiberal

Some people on Twitter are saying that Italian planes are doing action in Tripoli right now. Any truth to the rumours?

Obama needs to do something. This monster must be stopped.

Obama needs to do nothing....events are passing him by too

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:07:11am

re: #22 albusteve

Not in this case. Gaddafi must be stopped from bombing his own people. Couldn't we use the Air Force to prevent the bombing of civilians?

Walter L. Newton Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:07:26am

re: #19 rwdflynavy

We are watching the world change at breakneck speeds. I hope there isn't more bloodshed, but fear we haven't seen the worst of it yet.

And here is the reason for all of this...

“President Obama's brilliant speech in Cairo, CAUSED the uprising in Iran. Caused the uprising in Indonesia. I Was in Egypt while the President gave his speech in Cairo. You could feel the energy..of proud people once again. Compare Bush and his clumsy, insensitiv e words about Muslims, and President Obama's who KNOWS, the people have to be brave and make change. Without hesitation , President Obama's speech in Cairo, will go down as one of the most important speeches of all time. THAT FOLKS, is why he won the Noble Peace Prize...to change the "republica n/Bush/eve ry Muslim is a terr--or-- its" perception . Expect another uprising in Iran soon...all because of our Presidents brilliant speech in Cairo.”

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Fart Knocker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:08:18am

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

And here is the reason for all of this...

“President Obama's brilliant speech in Cairo, CAUSED the uprising in Iran. Caused the uprising in Indonesia. I Was in Egypt while the President gave his speech in Cairo. You could feel the energy..of proud people once again. Compare Bush and his clumsy, insensitiv e words about Muslims, and President Obama's who KNOWS, the people have to be brave and make change. Without hesitation , President Obama's speech in Cairo, will go down as one of the most important speeches of all time. THAT FOLKS, is why he won the Noble Peace Prize...to change the "republica n/Bush/eve ry Muslim is a terr--or-- its" perception . Expect another uprising in Iran soon...all because of our Presidents brilliant speech in Cairo.”

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

*snort*

RogueOne Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:08:37am

re: #22 albusteve

Obama needs to do nothing...events are passing him by too

It's a little late to do anything now. Unless we're willing to send in troops, which we aren't, the best the people of Libya can hope for is that we find some way to buy gaddafi out. Rumor has it he's bailed to Venezuela anyway.

Talking Point Detective Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:08:58am

re: #8 RogueOne

More of that "realist" foreign policy.

British government approved sale of crowd control equipment to Libya
Foreign Office figures show export licences were valued at more than £200m over the first nine months of last year

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

I'm waiting for the idea that arming and supporting fascistic dictators is a good thing to run its course.

Unfortunately, there's still a long list: Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Equatorial New Guinea.

Winny Spencer Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:09:12am

Santelli compares budget crisis to Sept. 11

Stanghazi Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:09:14am

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

And here is the reason for all of this...

“President Obama's brilliant speech in Cairo, CAUSED the uprising in Iran. Caused the uprising in Indonesia. I Was in Egypt while the President gave his speech in Cairo. You could feel the energy..of proud people once again. Compare Bush and his clumsy, insensitiv e words about Muslims, and President Obama's who KNOWS, the people have to be brave and make change. Without hesitation , President Obama's speech in Cairo, will go down as one of the most important speeches of all time. THAT FOLKS, is why he won the Noble Peace Prize...to change the "republica n/Bush/eve ry Muslim is a terr--or-- its" perception . Expect another uprising in Iran soon...all because of our Presidents brilliant speech in Cairo.”

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Comment mining from the Huff Po, from 2 weeks ago! Concern!

albusteve Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:09:27am

re: #23 ProLifeLiberal

Not in this case. Gaddafi must be stopped from bombing his own people. Couldn't we use the Air Force to prevent the bombing of civilians?

would you have said the same about Hussein in Iraq?...seems to me, the Libyans have to take care of their own affairs

RogueOne Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:10:02am

re: #27 Talking Point Detective

I'm waiting for the idea that arming and supporting fascistic dictators is a good thing to run its course.

Unfortunately, there's still a long list: Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Equatorial New Guinea.

The only thing that happens when you roll around with a turd is you get shit all over you.

Fart Knocker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:10:06am

re: #23 ProLifeLiberal

Not in this case. Gaddafi must be stopped from bombing his own people. Couldn't we use the Air Force to prevent the bombing of civilians?

That would be an act of war. Hard to get Libyan planes to stop dropping bombs without shooting them down. Sounds like the pilots are starting to defect to Malta. That's a good sign.

BishopX Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:10:08am

re: #22 albusteve

I'm not so sure. Publicly suspending arms sales (like Britain did) would be a good start (if we haven't done so already). A combined EU US blockade of Libyan oil exports would also be nail in the coffin of the regime. Gaddafi's government gets 95% of their revenue from oil. They are using the money to pay for mercenaries...stopping the oil would stop the mercenaries.

The first world just needs to be willing to live with the temporary price increase.

Tigger2005 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:10:36am

re: #19 rwdflynavy

We are watching the world change at breakneck speeds. I hope there isn't more bloodshed, but fear we haven't seen the worst of it yet.

Having already watched the Soviet Union collapse practically overnight after 80 years and a couple dozen James Bond movies, I can deal.

I think we have to focus on the positive. These revolutions seem to be mostly secular rather than Islamic. It's true extremists could try to take advantage of the disorder. That's where we have to concentrate our efforts...doing whatever we can to support the establishment of strong democratic institutions, and helping to foster economic growth.

Not that we're as great an example of democracy in action right now as we used to be...

Walter L. Newton Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:11:00am

re: #29 Stanley Sea

Comment mining from the Huff Po, from 2 weeks ago! Concern!

Yawn.

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:11:01am

There is the 48th Fighter Wing at RAF Lakenheath in Britain, which consists of F-15 Eagles, F-15 Strike Eagles, and Pavehawk Helicopters. Aviano Air Base in Italy is home to the 31st Fighter Wing, consisting of F-16s.

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:11:05am

re: #20 ProLifeLiberal

Some people on Twitter are saying that Italian planes are doing action in Tripoli right now. Any truth to the rumours?

Obama needs to do something. This monster must be stopped.

This may refer to the Libyan Arab Air Forces Aerimacchi SF-260s. This is a piston engine trainer but it exists in an armed version that has been widely used on counter-insurgency operations. A sizable number of these were sold to the Libyan regime in the 70s and early 80s and there was even a failed attempt to set up a production line for them in Libya.

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:11:36am

re: #30 albusteve

Yes, and we had the no fly zones.

Fart Knocker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:11:43am

re: #36 ProLifeLiberal

There is the 48th Fighter Wing at RAF Lakenheath in Britain, which consists of F-15 Eagles, F-15 Strike Eagles, and Pavehawk Helicopters. Aviano Air Base in Italy is home to the 31st Fighter Wing, consisting of F-16s.

But will France let us overfly?//

albusteve Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:12:50am

re: #34 Tigger2005

Having already watched the Soviet Union collapse practically overnight after 80 years and a couple dozen James Bond movies, I can deal.

I think we have to focus on the positive. These revolutions seem to be mostly secular rather than Islamic. It's true extremists could try to take advantage of the disorder. That's where we have to concentrate our efforts...doing whatever we can to support the establishment of strong democratic institutions, and helping to foster economic growth.

Not that we're as great an example of democracy in action right now as we used to be...

BO is on it....he'll be a multiple Nobel winner before he's through

Sinistershade Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:12:55am

re: #11 tigger2005

If the opposition appeals to the U.N. for assistance and can provide evidence of genocide, I wonder if there's an obligation to step in...even though the regime may fall without outside help.

I think genocide would be a tough standard to meet. Simply slaughtering people isn't genocide. Though definitions vary (Genocide definitions), there usually has to be an element of trying to wipe out (physically or culturally) a particular ethnic group or culture.

Legal obligations or not, the UN and the Western Powers historically have been unwilling to act to prevent genocide. If it's a topic you're interested in, look at Samantha Powers' "A Problem From Hell: America and the Age of Genocide." A great, if depressing, book.

RogueOne Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:14:06am

re: #39 rwdflynavy

But will France let us overfly?//

My brother has a story about a french mirage locking onto his 53 during the first gulf war. He said he had never seen that alarm go off before and for awhile no one knew wtf it meant.

albusteve Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:14:35am

re: #38 ProLifeLiberal

Yes, and we had the no fly zones.

what you are suggesting is simply not practical....nobody wants US warplanes buzzing Libya looking for trouble

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:16:06am

re: #38 ProLifeLiberal

Yes, and we had the no fly zones.

sanctioned by the UN iirc

Where are they in all of this, btw

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:16:11am

re: #30 albusteve

would you have said the same about Hussein in Iraq?...seems to me, the Libyans have to take care of their own affairs

When Hussein was committing genocide of Kurds he should have been bombed. Why wasn't he bombed back then?

While Kaddafi is not committing genocide of course (genocide is not synonymous with mass murder), if the number of victims is large, there is a case for intervention, like with the case of former Yugoslavia.

Jadespring Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:16:20am

re: #39 rwdflynavy

But will France let us overfly?//

I think there is a carrier group in the area. Medi Sea. They were there a week or so ago at least. There were also one or two ships off of Alexandria during the height of the Egypt protest.

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:16:31am

re: #43 albusteve

I wish that our country could do something. Dammit. I wouldn't be opposed to using our Air Force to stop bombing of Libyan civilians, even if it meant war.

albusteve Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:18:08am

re: #45 Sergey Romanov

When Hussein was committing genocide of Kurds he should have been bombed. Why wasn't he bombed back then?

While Kaddafi is not committing genocide of course (genocide is not synonymous with mass murder), if the number of victims is large, there is a case for intervention, like with the case of former Yugoslavia.

so just how would you effectively intervene?

Fart Knocker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:18:17am

re: #46 Jadespring

I think there is a carrier group in the area. Medi Sea. They were there a week or so ago at least. There were also one or two ships off of Alexandria during the height of the Egypt protest.

Looks like Vinson is in the Gulf of Aden, a couple days away.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:19:34am

re: #48 albusteve

so just how would you effectively intervene?

When you start paying me as much as NATO chief gets, maybe I'll tell you.

Jadespring Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:20:24am

re: #49 rwdflynavy

Looks like Vinson is in the Gulf of Aden, a couple days away.

At the beginning of the Egypt protest the Enterprise was near Gibraltar. The stuff I read was that they were originally planning to head through the Suez but stopped that plan for what I expect for obvious reasons. I can't see them going that far away from the area with everything that's been happening since then.

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:20:55am

If there is any intervention against Gaddafi's bedraggled air force, it should come from Egypt. The Egyptians have a large number of F-16s, thanks to US aid.
It is a long way from Egyptian territory to Tripoli but the F-16s can probably manage it with reduced payloads if they cruise at high altitude over the Med. The wiki article doesn't list any tankers in the EAF but I would be surprised if they don't have any.

jhrhv Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:22:50am

Amidst the horror going on in the Libya today the UN security and human rights counsels have decided to condemn Israel for building a house in a Jerusalem.

/SARC

Jadespring Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:23:03am

re: #51 Jadespring

At the beginning of the Egypt protest the Enterprise was near Gibraltar. The stuff I read was that they were originally planning to head through the Suez but stopped that plan for what I expect for obvious reasons. I can't see them going that far away from the area with everything that's been happening since then.

Well what I mean is it would surprise me if they did. Though it's not like I'm an expert or anything. :)

Simply Sarah Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:23:14am

re: #23 ProLifeLiberal

Not in this case. Gaddafi must be stopped from bombing his own people. Couldn't we use the Air Force to prevent the bombing of civilians?

While I do have some sympathy for this kind of idea, I also think that, in reality, it's not really something that is on the table at this point. While these actions are abominable, a direct military intervention would be an act of aggression against what is, at least technically, still the "legitimate" Libyan government. We also don't seem to have a great grasp of the actual situation on the ground, which is always dangerous when considering military action.

All that being said, I think that, should things continue to escalate and should it become clear that outside force is needed to prevent a complete massacre, it's something that should be brought up at the UN (Yes, I know, but we really can't afford to start acting unilaterally on this).

albusteve Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:23:14am

re: #52 Shiplord Kirel

If there is any intervention against Gaddafi's bedraggled air force, it should come from Egypt. The Egyptians have a large number of F-16s, thanks to US aid.
It is a long way from Egyptian territory to Tripoli but the F-16s can probably manage it with reduced payloads if they cruise at high altitude over the Med. The wiki article doesn't list any tankers in the EAF but I would be surprised if they don't have any.

a couple of boxes of Stingers would probably solve any airborne problems....cheap too

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:23:45am

re: #52 Shiplord Kirel

If there is any intervention against Gaddafi's bedraggled air force, it should come from Egypt. The Egyptians have a large number of F-16s, thanks to US aid.
It is a long way from Egyptian territory to Tripoli but the F-16s can probably manage it with reduced payloads if they cruise at high altitude over the Med. The wiki article doesn't list any tankers in the EAF but I would be surprised if they don't have any.

Why would the Egyptian military want to get involved with Libya when it's trying to make sure it's own citizens aren't rioting

RogueOne Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:24:58am

It's nice to live in places where even in the midst of the most cantankerous debates we don't have to worry about being bombed by our own air force.

/keep your eyes on flynavy though, he looks suspicious.

Kragar Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:25:16am

www.google.com...]>

MANAMA, Bahrain — As tanks moved into Bahrain's capital, top envoys from across the Gulf gathered inside a seaside palace and emerged with a message: They were united behind the nation's monarch and his ruling system.

But the show of solidarity last week among the Gulf Arab fraternity — including heavyweight Saudi Arabia — was more than just outreach in a time of crisis. It also sent an implicit warning to Bahrain's leaders not to allow more spillover from pro-democracy unrest within the club of sheiks and kings who hold sway from Kuwait to Oman.

"In other words, they are thinking, 'We need to keep a lid on this,'" said Shadi Hamid, director of research at The Brookings Doha Center in Qatar.

So even as Bahrain's rulers offer talks with the opposition to ease a week-old uprising in their island kingdom, their negotiating options appear limited by worries from Gulf allies, experts say.

Powerful neighbour Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf states are likely to apply serious pressure on Bahrain's royal house to avoid deep concessions that could embolden other mutinies against the near-absolute control of the region's leaders.

laZardo Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:25:29am

Meanwhile, in Iraq(i Kurdistan)...

RogueOne Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:25:39am

Enjoy the rest of presidents day people.

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:26:02am

re: #58 RogueOne

It's nice to live in places where even in the midst of the most cantankerous debates we don't have to worry about being bombed by our own air force.

/keep your eyes on flynavy though, he looks suspicious.

hey ,, YOU'RE the ROGUE one!!

Kragar Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:26:27am

re: #56 albusteve

a couple of boxes of Stingers would probably solve any airborne problems...cheap too

I can see no way that could possibbly backfire on us.

cough..muhadhjideen...cough

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:26:27am

re: #57 sattv4u2

Why would the Egyptian military want to get involved with Libya when it's trying to make sure it's own citizens aren't rioting

The Egyptian air force isn't needed for riot control, especially not the F-16s. It would also be a convincing display of solidarity for the new post-Mubarak regime.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:27:00am

re: #62 sattv4u2

hey ,, YOU'RE the ROGUE one!!

Sure, but wassup with that satellite dish? Spying?

JAFO Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:27:18am

re: #28 Winny Spencer

OT

Santelli compares budget crisis to Sept. 11

It's funny that he doesn't see when he and his cohorts destroyed the economy in the same light.

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:27:26am

re: #61 RogueOne

Enjoy the rest of presidents day people.

geee,, thansk,, Only 8 1/2 hours to go at here work!! (already been here 3 1/2)

Joy!

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:30:53am

re: #64 Shiplord Kirel

The Egyptian air force isn't needed for riot control, especially not the F-16s. It would also be a convincing display of solidarity for the new post-Mubarak regime.

wait , WHAT???

What new Libyian "post Mubarak regime"?

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:31:28am

re: #65 Sergey Romanov

Sure, but wassup with that satellite dish? Spying?

I SEE you !!!!

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:33:24am

re: #69 sattv4u2

Uh, where's my pants!!!

BBL. Must katch mooz and skvirrel.

BishopX Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:34:21am

re: #47 ProLifeLiberal

There really isn't a good way of stopping this kind of stuff from afar. The only sure-fire way of doing it is to invade. Any sort of air power solution is gong to be messy. We have no way of telling who's who on the ground and our primary weapons to stop this would be missiles. Which have a tendency to inflict collateral damage. The last thing the US or the EU needs is video of a mis-targeted missile showing up on youtube. There are already enough conspiracy theories floating around that part of the world. Any ground invasion would play right into Gaddafi's hands. His frame of reference is still all about colonialism. Armed US or European troops in Libyan soil would only prove that he was right and that the protesters were wrong.

Gaddafi has some support still...even if it's the minority. Confirming his crazy theories will only make him stronger.

AG in Houston Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:35:37am

Let's make sure we get those UN Security resolutions passed against Israel ASAP!

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:36:11am

re: #71 BishopX

Gaddafi has some support still...even if it's the ~~minority~~ MILITARY. Confirming his crazy theories will only make him stronger

ftfy

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:36:28am

re: #71 BishopX

re: #73 sattv4u2

Gaddafi has some support still...even if it's the ~~minority~~ MILITARY. Confirming his crazy theories will only make him stronger

ftfy

and updinged, btw

PhillyPretzel Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:38:14am

Here is one article from The Wall Street Journal: [Link: online.wsj.com...]

Kragar Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:38:48am

re: #72 AG in Houston

Let's make sure we get those UN Security resolutions passed against Israel ASAP!

Lets see, we have Libya bombing its own people, Bahrain sending tanks to break up protestors, and Jews building apartments. What do we discuss first?

Saudi Arabia chides U.S. for vetoing UN resolution on Israeli settlements

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:40:08am

re: #76 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And then they all had lunch at Tavern On The Green!

PhillyPretzel Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:40:13am

re: #76 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Good point.

Velvet Elvis Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:41:39am

The gf was reading me something a little while ago saying Gaddafi locked soldiers in their Barracks and burned them alive after they refused to march against their own countrymen. I can't find where she got it right now.

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:41:56am

re: #68 sattv4u2

wait , WHAT???

What new Libyian "post Mubarak regime"?

Hmmpph. At the risk of belaboring the obvious (something I'm good at it, since I used to be an instructor at Texas Tech), the post-Mubarak regime in Egypt could show solidarity with the Libyan revolutionaries by using its considerable airpower to stop any further massacres by Gaddafi's air force.

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:46:37am

re: #80 Shiplord Kirel

Hmmpph. At the risk of belaboring the obvious (something I'm good at it, since I used to be an instructor at Texas Tech), the post-Mubarak regime in Egypt could show solidarity with the Libyan revolutionaries by using its considerable air power to stop any further massacres by Gaddafi's air force.

K,, but again,,I don't see the Egyptian air force/ military / post Mubarak regime wanting to get involved with another (especially) Arab countries affairs while in the midst of figuring out the who/what/where of it's own hierarchy!

Jadespring Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:48:18am

re: #79 Conservative Moonbat

The gf was reading me something a little while ago saying Gaddafi locked soldiers in their Barracks and burned them alive after they refused to march against their own countrymen. I can't find where she got it right now.

Here's one place. [Link: wlcentral.org...]

8:00 PM WL Central has received a video said to be of the remains of soldiers burned alive for refusing to kill protesters.

iossarian Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:50:18am

re: #80 Shiplord Kirel

snip/At the risk of belaboring the obvious (something I'm good at it, since I used to be an instructor at Texas Tech)/snip

Wow.

Are you implying that there's some slow-on-the-uptakeness going on in Lubbock?

PhillyPretzel Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:50:49am

Jets landing in Malta. JPost.com confirms [Link: www.jpost.com...]

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:51:18am

re: #76 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Lets see, we have Libya bombing its own people, Bahrain sending tanks to break up protestors, and Jews building apartments. What do we discuss first?

Saudi Arabia chides U.S. for vetoing UN resolution on Israeli settlements

Libya murdering hundreds in the streets: Not a War Crime.

Israel building a house for Jews in Jerusalem: A War Crime.

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:51:26am

What a cowardly bastard Gaddafi is. I watched his son Saif—Saif al-Islam to be exact, which means "sword of Islam" (yeah, right *gag*)—on AJ yesterday. Another self-important tool and dictator in training. They're freaking disgusting.

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:51:35am

re: #83 iossarian

Joke at OU is that the Interstate only goes out of Lubbock, not in.

Jadespring Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:52:19am

Lots of reports appearing now about mercenaries being used. Things like this...

I’m calling from Canda and I have family in Tripoli who just gave me information that there are jets bringing missionaries (means mercenaries) to Tripoli. There are Soug El Juma which is a little area in Tripoli was under control of the people last night and they were planning to all gather in green square but an hour ago the mercenaries were seen leaving towards Soug El Juma to take the people under control, so there are more jets bringing in mercenaries (missionaries) to Libya. thank you.

English:

It’s a massacre, it’s a massacre, the Libyan regime got crazy. he started killing the protesters who went out in peace to protest to say get rid of this regime and they are tired of injustice. So the regime sent troops of militants and army whose killing the protesters in the street by (incomprehensible), it is a massacre in Benghazi and Tripoli and all the cities, all the cities said no to Gaddafi and he doesn’t want to listen. There is a militia from african soldiers brought to Tripoli and they are taking people like Gorillas, yo know, by my eyes i seen protesters walking in the street saying they don’t want this regime and suddenly a car full of African soldiers came and tried to shot the protesters on the head, basically on the head, so it is a massacre, really it is a massacre.

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:53:04am

Death toll in Libya (Probably conservative count) is 519 dead according to Wikipedia. At least 4,000 injured.

iossarian Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:53:26am

re: #87 ProLifeLiberal

Joke at OU is that the Interstate only goes out of Lubbock, not in.

Incidentally, why does the Tech homepage have a picture of someone snowboarding through a Soviet classified research city?

[Link: www.ttu.edu...]

albusteve Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:55:45am

re: #85 Alouette

Libya murdering hundreds in the streets: Not a War Crime.

Israel building a house for Jews in Jerusalem: A War Crime.

I hate the UN with as much passion as they hate Israel....absolutely corrupt pigs

BishopX Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:56:07am

re: #89 ProLifeLiberal

The Egyptian protests turned out to have a death toll of at least 300 and possibly 900. Given the differences in the levels of force used. I'd say the Libyan death tolls are probably 10-20% of what they really are.

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 10:56:36am

re: #91 albusteve

I hate the UN with as much passion as they hate Israel...absolutely corrupt pigs

Thats an insult to corrupt pigs!

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:02:37am

re: #92 BishopX

There was a report from someone on Twitter that 250 were killed in a bombing run. That puts the death toll at around 800, minimum. People are calling this Genocide there.

By your calculation, that would mean it is entirely possible that 2,500 to 5,000 have been killed.

General Nimrod Bodfish Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:04:02am

The Western world can not get involved in Libya with any kind of force. Remember that Bahrain, Yemen, Libya, and the former Mubarak and Ben Ali regimes blamed "outsiders" for the unrest, and the last thing Libya/Bahrain/Yemen/etc need is for the dictators to say "See, see, we told you the foreigners are causing this!"

At the most, the Western world will force sanctions on Libya to try to cut off any military supplies (ammo, fuel, etc). But to go into Libya, even to stop the massacres, will just hand more ammo to the propagandists in the totalitarian regimes in the ME and else where, and that will make everything there for the pro-freedom people worse.

We'll just have to tough this out and keep at the diplomatic route, as much as we are disgusted by the brutality of this whole mess.

PhillyPretzel Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:05:22am

I got to go to see my accountant. I will be back later.

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:07:14am

Wait a minute, Egypt is on one side of Libya, while Tunisia is one the other. I just had an idea.

BishopX Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:07:37am

re: #94 ProLifeLiberal

I don't trust twitter sources for casualty counts...most people tend to overestimate things like this. I'm going to wait for the hospital reports and HRW compilation figures to come out.

ProMayaLiberal Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:10:07am

re: #98 BishopX

Good idea. Still horrific what is going on. There has been a war between Egypt and Libya before, by the way.

Libyan-Egyptian War

100

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:10:41am

re: #97 ProLifeLiberal

Wait a minute, Egypt is on one side of Libya, while Tunisia is one the other. I just had an idea.

Send in Bob Hope and Bing Crosby!?!?!

(it helps if you're kinda old like me to get the reference)

101

mh Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:11:07am

The big question of course, is, where is Qaddafi's all-girl bodyguard in all of this?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

102

Jadespring Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:15:23am

@fkauder @zeinobia Companies flying their workers out on anything that flies. They aren't even allowed to pack. #Italy protecting airspace.

egyptian army sets refugee camps on the border with libya and 2 field hospitals

103

Decatur Deb Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:19:40am

re: #58 RogueOne

It's nice to live in places where even in the midst of the most cantankerous debates we don't have to worry about being bombed by our own air force.

/keep your eyes on flynavy though, he looks suspicious.

It's been done.

104

Jadespring Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:23:14am

Tripolitanian Libyan
No really, we don't mind if a country sends its military to #Libya to stop the massacre, its gone too far I think.

105

efuseakay Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:25:59am

We need to stay out of this and just watch from the sidelines. Whenever we intervene, we always end up making things worse. It pains me to see the Libyan people getting killed off like this, but it's their revolution.

106

sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:33:15am

re: #105 efuseakay

We need to stay out of this and just watch from the sidelines. Whenever we intervene, we always end up making things worse. It pains me to see the Libyan people getting killed off like this, but it's their revolution.

Good thing there was no intervention when we (the soon to be USA) revolted against the King!

Wait ,, HUH !?!?!

107

General Nimrod Bodfish Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:34:24am

From BBC:

#
1928: This just in from Tunisia, which has formally asked Saudi Arabia to extradite Leila Trabelsi, the wife of ousted strongman Zine El Abidine Ben Ali, TAP news agency reports, citing a foreign ministry official.

108

General Nimrod Bodfish Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:35:29am

More on topic, again from BBC's news site:

#
1933: More details on the call by Libya's diplomats at the United Nations for international intervention to end the crisis. The deputy ambassador, Ibrahim Omar Al Dabashi, told BBC World that Col Gaddafi's government was carrying out a genocide. "It is a real genocide whether it is in the eastern cities of Libya or whether what is going now in Tripoli," he said. "The information that we are receiving from the people in Tripoli is the regime is killing whoever goes out to the streets... He has his mercenaries everywhere in the streets and whenever any demonstrator appears they just kill them. At least they shoot them, whether they kill them or not, but they are shooting them."

109

Simply Sarah Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:41:42am

I wonder what the leaders of the other countries in the region are thinking right now. Tunisia and Egypt largely let the peaceful protesters be and they just gained strength. Libya tries a quicker, more violent crackdown and that just seems to have boosted support to the protesters at an even more rapid pace. Granted, the situations were and are different in each of these places, but, regardless, they don't exactly give a clear template to follow for riding out the protests.

Of course, that fact is one of the more concerning aspects of all of this for me. It seems that many of the regimes are becoming increasingly erratic as they attempt to find something...ANYTHING, that works to get the people to stop. Failing that, I'm worried some of them will decide that if they're going down, they're taking the population with them.

This seems like it may be what Gaddafi is up to right now. The protesters aren't going home, he must know that. They can't. If they did, they know they'd face a crackdown potentially worse than what they're seeing already.

110

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:53:56am

Have you guys already seen this? (Very graphic, if you're squeamish, don't watch).

Video of Libyan soldiers shot & burned by Qaddafi forces for refusing to obey orders.

The people in the crowd are screaming & crying "Ya kalb, ya kalb!" ("Oh [you] dog!")

Gaddafi is 1000x worse than a rabid dog. Your people won't forget this, you rotten prick. If you escape alive, anyone who gives you sanctuary in is a filthy dirtbag.

111

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:05:53pm

re: #110 CuriousLurker

And BTW, Gaddafi, those soldiers you had killed for refusing to obey orders? They are true martyrs because they chose their own deaths over the killing of innocents.

112

General Nimrod Bodfish Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:07:11pm

BBC News:

#
2001: Ominous news from our colleagues over at BBC Monitoring: "'Libyan military source confirms orders were issued for the aerial bombardment of Benghazi within two hours,'" reported Al-Arabiya TV in an urgent screen caption at 1947 GMT."

113

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:13:12pm

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

And here is the reason for all of this...

“President Obama's brilliant speech in Cairo, CAUSED the uprising in Iran. Caused the uprising in Indonesia. I Was in Egypt while the President gave his speech in Cairo. You could feel the energy..of proud people once again. Compare Bush and his clumsy, insensitiv e words about Muslims, and President Obama's who KNOWS, the people have to be brave and make change. Without hesitation , President Obama's speech in Cairo, will go down as one of the most important speeches of all time. THAT FOLKS, is why he won the Noble Peace Prize...to change the "republica n/Bush/eve ry Muslim is a terr--or-- its" perception . Expect another uprising in Iran soon...all because of our Presidents brilliant speech in Cairo.”

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

This gentleman seems more excited than clued in, bless him.

114

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:13:53pm

re: #112 commadore183

BBC News:

#
2001: Ominous news from our colleagues over at BBC Monitoring: "'Libyan military source confirms orders were issued for the aerial bombardment of Benghazi within two hours,'" reported Al-Arabiya TV in an urgent screen caption at 1947 GMT."

Ya kalb, ya kalb—keep paving your road to hell with more bullets & blood.

115

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:15:06pm

re: #53 jhrhv

Amidst the horror going on in the Libya today the UN security and human rights counsels have decided to condemn Israel for building a house in a Jerusalem.

/SARC

I think it's a comfort thing. They're confused, so they fall back on what they know.

116

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:19:35pm

re: #115 SanFranciscoZionist

I think it's a comfort thing. They're confused, so they fall back on what they know.

//

Heh.
Oh hey, I forgot to mention that I was attacked by a can of Israeli pickles. They come in these really strong tins that I like to keep for pencils & paintbrushes, so I was washed on and was drying it without paying attention to the sharp edge. I'm quite sure the whole thing was a Zionist plot—no doubt the cans were trained by the Mossad.

117

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:21:23pm

re: #116 CuriousLurker

Gah, word salad. Excuse the errors.

118

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:21:58pm

re: #116 CuriousLurker

Heh.
Oh hey, I forgot to mention that I was attacked by a can of Israeli pickles. They come in these really strong tins that I like to keep for pencils & paintbrushes, so I was washed on and was drying it without paying attention to the sharp edge. I'm quite sure the whole thing was a Zionist plot—no doubt the cans were trained by the Mossad.

Yikes. You OK? Jagged metal is not fun.

119

Jadespring Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:23:30pm

Okay looks like thingss are brewing a bit more now.

bilalr Bilal - Al Jazeera
#AlJazeera: NATO 'requests' from Libyan regime to immediately stop attacking civilians #Libya

Also read the Mr. B of Italy is calling on the EU to stop what's going on.

120

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:24:06pm

re: #118 SanFranciscoZionist

Yikes. You OK? Jagged metal is not fun.

Eh, yeah, I was fine once I realized that when a flap of skin has been separated from your knuckle it's best to keep it covered with a Band-aid lest you keep ripping it back open (which I did twice). Duh.

121

Jadespring Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:25:38pm

Also Aljazerra is giving permission for any tv station to run their footage because of all the attempts to scramble their signal.

122

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:26:32pm

re: #121 Jadespring

Also Aljazerra is giving permission for any tv station to run their footage because of all the attempts to scramble their signal.

Man, this is turning into a serious nail-biter.

123

General Nimrod Bodfish Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:45:22pm

BBC News:

#
2040: It's well into the hours of darkness now in Libya, and the situation is reported to be extemely tense. From Tripoli, one eyewitness told the BBC that people there are expecting a major event tonight - "a final battle" were the words used.

Question is: whose final battle will it be, the Gaddafi regime or the protesters. Hope that 1) there is no "final battle", and 2) if there is a final battle, it will be the end of Gaddafi.

124

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:57:34pm

Reposted form upstairs:

According to Twitter, al-Qaradawi is now trying to insert himself into the Libyan situation, calling on Egyptians & Tunisians to denounce Gaddafi and save the Libyans. Oh, crap, now they're saying he issued a fatwa to kill Gaddafi.

Libyan deputy ambassador to UN is calling for Gaddafi to step down on AJ.

What a mess.

125

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:05:54pm

re: #124 CuriousLurker

According to AJ:

Libyan diplomats resigning all over the place. Arab League, EU, UN calling for cessation of violence against protesters.

Twitter:

@SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
"Al Qaradawi: O lord save the Libyans from this pharaoh." Al Jazeera anchor said 'Amen' when he finished.

This is spiraling out of control, becoming religious.

126

Wozza Matter? Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:06:36pm

re: #124 CuriousLurker

Libyan Embassy staff in london have walked out and joined the protestors - rumours are that a pre-Gaddafi flag is flying there now.

(i'm not in the centre of town, but the reports been widely run)

127

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:07:57pm

re: #125 CuriousLurker

AJ: Pictures of Gaddafi labeled with "the tyrant", "the infidel", "enemy of God".

128

Jadespring Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:09:02pm

Reading info that the mercenaries being used are from Chad and Darfur (unconfirmed)

BBC reports that Libyan diplomats at the UN asking for Libyan airspace be closed so no can't bring more in,

129

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:10:32pm

re: #126 wozzablog

Libyan Embassy staff in london have walked out and joined the protestors - rumours are that a pre-Gaddafi flag is flying there now.

(i'm not in the centre of town, but the reports been widely run)

AJ just said they put the old flag back (for now). Gah.

Methinks Gaddafi is toast. I pray he is.

130

Wozza Matter? Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:11:18pm

re: #127 CuriousLurker

There are few civil institutions in Libya that are worth a damn - weak unions etc, but there doesn't seem to be an appetite for theocracy to fill the void.

131

Wozza Matter? Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:12:29pm

re: #128 Jadespring

the national Libyan army is a joke apparently - a fellow was on the BBC earlier saying soldiers had 5 bullets each.

All the power is with the private foreign armies of the sons.

132

Simply Sarah Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:14:38pm

re: #129 CuriousLurker

AJ just said they put the old flag back (for now). Gah.

Methinks Gaddafi is toast. I pray he is.

It seems almost certain that he's finished. What isn't clear, though, is how much damage he'll end up doing to the people of Libya on his way. I truly hope the worst is over, but I fear what may still be to come.

133

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:18:21pm

re: #130 wozzablog

There are few civil institutions in Libya that are worth a damn - weak unions etc, but there doesn't seem to be an appetite for theocracy to fill the void.

You're probably right. A lot of the people are most likely couching things in religious terms because, well, they're Muslim and they're in a dire situation so they'd naturally turn to their faith for hope/strength (doesn't mean they want a theocracy). I guess I just get a little nervous in not wanting the Islamists being the loudest voices.

134

Wozza Matter? Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:20:30pm

re: #133 CuriousLurker

You're probably right. A lot of the people are most likely couching things in religious terms because, well, they're Muslim and they're in a dire situation so they'd naturally turn to their faith for hope/strength (doesn't mean they want a theocracy). I guess I just get a little nervous in not wanting the Islamists being the loudest voices.

It's a very secular society if memory serves from what i've read about it - all i've heard on the BBC radio all afternoon is professors and others from Libya breaking down and screaming - literally - "save our souls".
They are desperate and desperate people often go to God for a frame of reference.

135

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:22:16pm

re: #132 Simply Sarah

It seems almost certain that he's finished. What isn't clear, though, is how much damage he'll end up doing to the people of Libya on his way. I truly hope the worst is over, but I fear what may still be to come.

I hope so too. The photos they're showing on AJ of the people who've been killed are horrible.

AJ: Ongoing random "drive-by" shootings by Qaddafi loyalists.

@SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Al Jazeera: The Egyptian army says that the Libyan border control has withdrawn from the Libyan borders with Egypt

@SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
France 24 Arabic: A Libyan official appeared on State TV & confirmed that Gaddafi is still in #Libya

136

General Nimrod Bodfish Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:23:21pm

BBC News:

#
2120: AFP is now reporting Austrian defence ministry officials as saying airspace over Tripoli is closed - and will remain so "until further notice".

137

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:23:32pm

re: #134 wozzablog

It's a very secular society if memory serves from what i've read about it - all i've heard on the BBC radio all afternoon is professors and others from Libya breaking down and screaming - literally - "save our souls".
They are desperate and desperate people often go to God for a frame of reference.

Exactly.

138

Wozza Matter? Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:25:42pm

re: #137 CuriousLurker

Exactly.

Not always to religion. But to God.

139

Simply Sarah Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:27:44pm

re: #135 CuriousLurker

The photos and reports make be ill. This isn't how a "leader" acts.

I really wish we had a better idea of how much of the military still supported him, since that seems like it's going to be what determines how bloody this ends up being in the end. The only hope is most either already have turn on him or do so soon. Anything else and...well, I'd rather not think about it.

140

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:27:47pm

I have to take a break. I'm getting wayyyy stressed out over this.

BBL

141

CuriousLurker Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:28:52pm

re: #139 Simply Sarah

The photos and reports make be ill. This isn't how a "leader" acts.

I really wish we had a better idea of how much of the military still supported him, since that seems like it's going to be what determines how bloody this ends up being in the end. The only hope is most either already have turn on him or do so soon. Anything else and...well, I'd rather not think about it.

Same here. *shudder*

142

Wozza Matter? Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:29:21pm

re: #139 Simply Sarah

The photos and reports make be ill. This isn't how a "leader" acts.

I really wish we had a better idea of how much of the military still supported him, since that seems like it's going to be what determines how bloody this ends up being in the end. The only hope is most either already have turn on him or do so soon. Anything else and...well, I'd rather not think about it.

Aspects of the national army has already defected in Benghazi. He kept them emaciated. They have virtually no power base.
The fire power resides with his private militias.

143

General Nimrod Bodfish Mon, Feb 21, 2011 1:45:11pm

BBC News: