Alleged WH Shooter Oscar Ortega Inspired by Alex Jones

The deranged far right inspires another violent nut
US News • Views: 27,425

Imagine my surprise to discover that accused White House shooter Oscar Ramiro Ortega-Hernandez drew some of the inspiration for his crazed conspiracy theories from Alex Jones.

Jake Chapman is also scheduled to make the trip to Washington. The AK-47 that Mr. Ortega is accused of using to fire on the White House was registered to Mr. Chapman, who said in an interview that he is known to friends as “the gun guy.” He said that he sold the gun to Mr. Ortega in March for $550 and that he believed it was the first gun Mr. Ortega owned.

Mr. Chapman, 21, said he had not heard Mr. Ortega talk of taking violent action. But more than a year ago, he recalled, Mr. Ortega and others watched an antigovernment film on the Internet called “The Obama Deception,” which was written, directed and produced by Alex Jones, a Texas-based conservative talk show host who has espoused a number of conspiracy theories involving the federal government.

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410 comments
1 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:42:08pm

Not shocked.

2 freetoken  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:44:10pm

You mean the same Alex Jones that hosts GOP politicians like Ron Paul, who was given a prominent stage on Saturday night?

Say it isn't so!

3 Lidane  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:44:40pm

Cue the wingnuts disowning Alex Jones as a lefist in 3...2...1...

4 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:45:11pm

This deserves a

5 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:47:48pm

Btw, I miss you all, but I just can't escape...

6 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:48:50pm

re: #3 Lidane

[Video]Cue the wingnuts disowning Alex Jones as a lefist in 3...2...1...

Drudge has been linking to Infowars for the past couple years and none of the wingnuts objected. I haven't been checking but where is Alex on OWS? He's flip flopped a couple times, not sure where he's going to land.

7 Lidane  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:53:41pm

re: #5 JasonA

Btw, I miss you all, but I just can't escape...

[Video]

That's okay. In about a month, this will be me:

8 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:54:31pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

Drudge has been linking to Infowars for the past couple years and none of the wingnuts objected. I haven't been checking but where is Alex on OWS? He's flip flopped a couple times, not sure where he's going to land.

Can't say I've ever seen him flip-flop. Tends to be against the federal government pretty consistently. Seems like each side tends to own him a bit more when they're out of power tho.

9 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:54:44pm

re: #7 Lidane

That's okay. In about a month, this will be me:

[Video]

Oh I could damn well be getting into that, too. Almost impossible for me to turn down a Bioware game. I think I may have played them all, going back to Baldur's Gate...

10 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:57:16pm

Google gives 'about 515,000 results' for the search "Obama is the AntiChrist." From Newsweek:

According to a 2006 study by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, a third of white evangelicals believe the world will end in their lifetimes. These mostly conservative Christians believe a great battle is imminent. After years of tribulation—natural disasters, other cataclysms (such as the collapse of financial markets)—God's armies will vanquish armies led by the Antichrist himself. He will be a sweet-talking world leader who gathers governments and economies under his command to further his own evil agenda. In this world view, "the spread of secular progressive ideas is a prelude to the enslavement of mankind," explains Richard Landes, former director of the Center for Millennial Studies at Boston University.

No wonder, then, that Obama triggers such fear in the hearts of America's millennialist Christians. Mat Staver, dean of Liberty University's law school, says he does not believe Obama is the Antichrist, but he can see how others might. Obama's own use of religious rhetoric belies his liberal positions on abortion and traditional marriage, Staver says, positions that "religious conservatives believe will threaten their freedom." The people who believe Obama is the Antichrist are perhaps jumping to conclusions, but they're not nuts: "They are expressing a concern and a fear that is widely shared," Staver says.
[Link: www.thedailybeast.com...]

Idiots like Staver and Jones are encouraging some unstable people to act on their fantasies.

11 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:57:40pm

re: #8 McSpiff

Can't say I've ever seen him flip-flop. Tends to be against the federal government pretty consistently. Seems like each side tends to own him a bit more when they're out of power tho.

Nah, he's never been a guy of the left. Does he share some principles with an extreme part of the left, sure but Jones is and always has been a paleocon type. Like Pat Buchanan if Pat Buchanan were more batshit insane and filled with conspiracy theories.

12 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 7:59:53pm

I haven't been following Alex Jones for a while. Here's his latest on the American police state, Illuminati, globalist bankers, Mossad plots, black preachers, NeoCon War mongers etc from his pal David Icke....
David Icke - Thoughts From New York On 'John Wayne America'

13 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:00:41pm

I think that President Obama being away at the NBA game that weekend, courtesy of our military, was on purpose. They knew this guy was coming. One of the camera shots showed a very intimate moment between the Obamas. She had worked so hard to organize this event, and a psycho was on his way to the White House with what, a AK-47? They knew.

14 Lidane  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:01:36pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

I haven't been checking but where is Alex on OWS? He's flip flopped a couple times, not sure where he's going to land.

It's all a conspiracy from the globalist bankers, don'tcha know:

15 Idle Drifter  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:02:49pm

I'd call Alex Jones a political opportunist, a nut, and a firebrand. 9/11 Truther to round out the portfolio. He was attacking the Bush Administration until the 2008 elections and switched over to attack the Obama Administration. So I was never sure what he referred to himself as I couldn't bring myself to listen to his show or read his crap on Info Wars.

16 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:03:09pm

re: #14 Lidane

It's all a conspiracy from the globalist bankers, don'tcha know:

[Video]

This is the ideological grandchild of the people who claimed Jews were behind capitalism and communist revolutions everywhere.

17 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:04:33pm

re: #15 Idle Drifter

I'd call Alex Jones a political opportunist, a nut, and a firebrand. 9/11 Truther to round out the portfolio. He was attacking the Bush Administration until the 2008 elections and switched over to attack the Obama Administration. So I was never sure what he referred to himself as I couldn't bring myself to listen to his show or read his crap on Info Wars.

I wouldn't call him an opportunist. He'd be saying the same shit if McCain had been elected. He's plain old crazy and it doesn't matter who's in the WH. If his buddy Ron Paul ever got elected, he'd turn on him too since Paul obviously wouldn't do everything Alex wants and would thus become complicit in the great conspiracy.

18 Lidane  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:06:11pm

re: #16 HappyWarrior

This is the ideological grandchild of the people who claimed Jews were behind capitalism and communist revolutions everywhere.

I'm 7 minutes into this bullshit video and he's already naming Soros and the White House. Alex Jones outright says that the whole OWS movement is a fake, astroturfed movement created by Soros, the banks, the White House and the globalists to give themselves cover. For what, I'm not sure, but that's his take on it.

19 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:06:58pm

re: #18 Lidane

I'm 7 minutes into this bullshit video and he's already naming Soros and the White House. Alex Jones outright says that the whole OWS movement is a fake, astroturfed movement created by Soros, the banks, the White House and the globalists to give themselves cover. For what, I'm not sure, but that's his take on it.

Does he mention all the rapes and stabbings?

20 Idle Drifter  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:07:07pm

re: #17 HappyWarrior

I wouldn't call him an opportunist. He'd be saying the same shit if McCain had been elected. He's plain old crazy and it doesn't matter who's in the WH. If his buddy Ron Paul ever got elected, he'd turn on him too since Paul obviously wouldn't do everything Alex wants and would thus become complicit in the great conspiracy.

Yeah, opportunist is the wrong word. I'll just stick to calling Alex Jones an Asshole. Major Asshole.

21 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:07:52pm

re: #18 Lidane

I'm 7 minutes into this bullshit video and he's already naming Soros and the White House. Alex Jones outright says that the whole OWS movement is a fake, astroturfed movement created by Soros, the banks, the White House and the globalists to give themselves cover. For what, I'm not sure, but that's his take on it.

A wise philosopher once said cocaine is a helluva drug.

22 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:08:01pm

re: #20 Idle Drifter

Yeah, opportunist is the wrong word. I'll just stick to calling Alex Jones an Asshole. Major Asshole.

Paranoid asshole.

23 dell*nix  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:09:02pm

re: #13 prairiefire

Obviously missing a sarc tag.

24 Lidane  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:09:13pm

re: #19 JasonA

Does he mention all the rapes and stabbings?

I have no idea. I looked again and that's the first in a 5-part rant about OWS and how it's a globalist conspiracy by Soros and Obama and the banks to keep the man down.

I can't listen to that much Alex Jones. I had to turn off the videos and plug my headphones into my iPod instead.

25 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:10:14pm

re: #24 Lidane

I have no idea. I looked again and that's the first in a 5-part rant about OWS and how it's a globalist conspiracy by Soros and Obama and the banks to keep the man down.

I can't listen to that much Alex Jones. I had to turn off the videos and plug my headphones into my iPod instead.

Ah. Still a part of the Apple conspiracy, then.

26 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:10:47pm

re: #20 Idle Drifter

Yeah, opportunist is the wrong word. I'll just stick to calling Alex Jones an Asshole. Major Asshole.

Yeah, was just saying. It doesn't matter who's president with this guy. I wish I could see what it would be like if Ron Paul ever was president because either two things would happen)
1. Paul would disappoint his deluded fanbase and I'd love to see their excuses for their hero when he can't do everything they want him to do.
2. How they would respond to less than savory things done by a Paul administration. I think Ron Paul fans despite their "love" of liberty and freedom are some of the most authoritarian people I know given their lack of accepting other perspectives.

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:11:30pm

re: #10 jaunte

Google gives 'about 515,000 results' for the search "Obama is the AntiChrist." From Newsweek:

Idiots like Staver and Jones are encouraging some unstable people to act on their fantasies.

To be entirely fair, Google gives 393,000 results for "Bush is the Anti-Christ".

And 70,700 for "Clinton is the Anti-Christ".

There's always someone who thinks the President is the antichrist.

Either the idea is growing in popularity, or more nuts are finding the Interwebs.

28 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:11:37pm

re: #14 Lidane

It's all a conspiracy from the globalist bankers, don'tcha know:

[Video]

What a fruit loop.

29 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:13:11pm

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

To be entirely fair, Google gives 393,000 results for "Bush is the Anti-Christ".

And 70,700 for "Clinton is the Anti-Christ".

There's always someone who thinks the President is the antichrist.

Either the idea is growing in popularity, or more nuts are finding the Interwebs.

Well the correlation seems to be the more recent the president the more he's the antichrist. I'm eagerly hoping someone finds a 1851 pamphlet to emerge and confirmi what we all know to be the real antichrist. That's right, folks. Millard Fillmore is the real antichrist.

30 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:13:23pm

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

56,100 for "Google is the antichrist."
!

31 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:15:15pm

The first gun this guy owned is an AK-47?

Well, nothing like learning on a Daisy Red Rider for this guy.

32 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:15:29pm

google now knows I know....

33 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:16:18pm

Seems its a month for lone gunmen.

What will the Conspiracy Theorists make of that?

34 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:16:35pm

re: #30 jaunte

56,100 for "Google is the antichrist."
!

5,250,000 for "satan is the antichrist"
Winnar!

35 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:17:09pm

re: #34 Killgore Trout

False flag!

36 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:17:11pm

re: #31 ggt

The first gun this guy owned is an AK-47?

Well, nothing like learning on a Daisy Red Rider for this guy.

He would have put his eye out.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:17:24pm

re: #29 HappyWarrior

Well the correlation seems to be the more recent the president the more he's the antichrist. I'm eagerly hoping someone finds a 1851 pamphlet to emerge and confirmi what we all know to be the real antichrist. That's right, folks. Millard Fillmore is the real antichrist.

I've seen a number of these patterns, and it always increases sharply between Clinton and Bush, I believe because of the rise of the Internet as a media form. Then, Obama is higher than Bush, but not as sharply higher.

I think that one difference between the Bush and Obama situations, as opposed to figures, though, is the rise of crazy people bashing the President on other forms of media--the birthers making it onto mainstream news stations and having influence on actual people in Congress and such.

38 Idle Drifter  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:18:15pm

re: #34 Killgore Trout

5,250,000 for "satan is the antichrist"
Winnar!

Here's a surprise. Ben Franklin is the antichrist = 2,080,000 hits

39 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:18:32pm
40 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:18:55pm

re: #36 Killgore Trout

He would have put his eye out.

Sounds like he couldn't have hit the side of a barn with it either.

But the Fox News Chickas will be talking about nothing other than the other Whacko Lone Gunman. You know, the one that has the wrong religion.

41 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:19:15pm

Told you so.
Damn didn't work but that proves that Fillmore is the real antichrist. I meah he was the 13th president and I swear I didn't think of that when I made this gag up.

42 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:19:41pm

re: #23 dell*nix

Obviously missing a sarc tag.

Do you think I was being sarcastic? I wasn't.

43 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:20:00pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

FAQ: Will the Antichrist know he is the Antichrist?

You mean, it could be any of us?????

44 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:20:43pm

re: #38 Idle Drifter

Here's a surprise. Ben Franklin is the antichrist = 2,080,000 hits

Bifocals are the work of the devil!

45 jaunte  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:20:53pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

It is interesting that some prophecy scholars have proposed that Satan has had a man prepared in every generation of mankind's history for the purpose of fulfilling the role of Antichrist.

Here it comes... no? ....Wait for it......

46 Idle Drifter  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:21:06pm

re: #43 ggt

You mean, it could be any of us???

I always knew I was special and destine for greatness.

47 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:21:18pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Bifocals are the work of the devil!

They are called progressive lenses, now.

48 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:21:28pm

re: #46 Idle Drifter

I always knew I was special and destine for greatness.

Meds are a wonderful thing . . .

49 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:22:00pm

re: #43 ggt

You mean, it could be any of us???

Your confusion leads me to suspect you.

50 EdDantes  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:22:21pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Bifocals are the work of the devil!

And pot bellied stoves.

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:22:32pm

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

I've seen a number of these patterns, and it always increases sharply between Clinton and Bush, I believe because of the rise of the Internet as a media form. Then, Obama is higher than Bush, but not as sharply higher.

I think that one difference between the Bush and Obama situations, as opposed to figures, though, is the rise of crazy people bashing the President on other forms of media--the birthers making it onto mainstream news stations and having influence on actual people in Congress and such.

Clinton's multiple murders were something you could only learn about on special-order videotape.

The Internet changed EVERYTHING.

52 Idle Drifter  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:22:32pm

re: #48 ggt

Meds are a wonderful thing . . .

OOOOO, the colors....

53 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:22:56pm

re: #49 Killgore Trout

Your confusion leads me to suspect you.

I doubt it, my back hurts and I need glasses.

54 EdDantes  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:23:28pm

re: #48 ggt

Meds are a wonderful thing . . .

Zoloft is my friend.

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:23:50pm

re: #53 ggt

I doubt it, my back hurts and I need glasses.

WHere is it written that the Antichrist won't need glasses?

56 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:24:32pm

Go Cruz, Go! Go Giants!

57 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:24:33pm

re: #55 SanFranciscoZionist

WHere is it written that the Antichrist won't need glasses?

I don't know, I just think that to do the dirty work that would be necessary, one would have to have a body that works well. A mind that works well . . . .

58 dell*nix  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:25:16pm

re: #42 prairiefire

Hell yes. Either that or you have beliefs that would qualify you for a conspiracy nut.

59 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:25:30pm

and that fumble will do it. The Eagles recover the ball and will now run the clock down.

60 Kragar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:25:37pm

NYC mayor: Man arrested in bomb plot

An "al-Qaida sympathizer" accused of plotting to bomb police and post offices in New York City as well as U.S. troops returning home has been arrested on numerous terrorism-related charges.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg announced at a news conference Sunday the arrest of Jose Pimentel of Manhattan, "a 27-year-old al-Qaida sympathizer" who the mayor said was motivated by terrorist propaganda and resentment of U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said police had to move quickly to arrest Pimentel on Saturday because he was ready to carry out his plan.

61 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:25:53pm

re: #54 EdDantes

Zoloft is my friend.

Delusions of greatness are an indication of something in need of a diagnosis, IMHO.

:0

62 Idle Drifter  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:27:10pm
63 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:27:38pm

re: #58 dell*nix

Hell yes. Either that or you have beliefs that would qualify you for a conspiracy nut.

Between the CIA and the Secret Service, the government knows when each of us takes a trip to the bathroom. They KNOW EVERYTHING. So, of course, they know about every possible plot to hurt the POTUS. The rest is just how they spin it for the MSM.

I thought you would know that.

////

64 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:27:58pm

re: #62 Idle Drifter

Ben Franklin has some swag.

The original Dude right there.

65 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:28:19pm

re: #62 Idle Drifter

Ben Franklin has some swag.

Yeah, but he earned it. He was no poser.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:29:52pm

re: #57 ggt

I don't know, I just think that to do the dirty work that would be necessary, one would have to have a body that works well. A mind that works well . . .

Dunno about that. I've been reading Slacktivist's takedown of "Left Behind", and it seems like it's totally easy being the anti-Christ. But you have to memorize all the countries in the UN in alphabetical order. That's the hard part.

67 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:29:54pm

re: #62 Idle Drifter

Ben Franklin has some swag.

His city's team just put the stop on Eli Manning and the Giants. Vince Young stepped up and delivered when it matter.

68 dell*nix  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:29:55pm

re: #63 ggt

I am not now, nor have I ever been an employee of the CIA.

But I did know one or two who were. Trust me, they ain't that good:)

69 Idle Drifter  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:30:17pm

re: #64 HappyWarrior

re: #65 EmmmieG

Lesser men burst into flames in his presence.

70 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:30:30pm

I like the blue diamond gusset jeans commercial on his show.

71 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:31:09pm

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

Dunno about that. I've been reading Slacktivist's takedown of "Left Behind", and it seems like it's totally easy being the anti-Christ. But you have to memorize all the countries in the UN in alphabetical order. That's the hard part.

I think I may have to start wearing a gold-plated tin foil hat.

/

72 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:31:19pm

re: #50 EdDantes

And pot bellied stoves.

Kerosene lanterns.

73 Idle Drifter  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:32:26pm

re: #72 prairiefire

Kerosene lanterns.

Lightning rods. Basically giving Zeus a big middle finger.

74 dell*nix  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:32:28pm

re: #71 ggt

You may want the improved faraday cage version:)

75 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:32:49pm

re: #71 ggt

I think I may have to start wearing a gold-plated tin foil hat.

/

Nope, you are supposed to use actual gold foil. That way you can be a follower of Alex Jones and Glenn Beck at the same time.

76 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:32:58pm

re: #68 dell*nix

I am not now, nor have I ever been an employee of the CIA.

But I did know one or two who did. Trust me, they ain't that good:)

Are you calling our Secret Service lame?

77 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:33:09pm

re: #74 dell*nix

You may want the improved faraday cage version:)

oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Should had a visor as well --no?

/

78 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:33:23pm

re: #70 Amory Blaine

I like the blue diamond gusset jeans commercial on his show.

79 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:33:47pm

re: #69 Idle Drifter

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like assigning a score to women.

80 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:33:52pm

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

Nope, you are supposed to use actual gold foil. That way you can be a follower of Alex Jones and Glenn Beck at the same time.

Nah, I'm only concerned about the anti-christ zombie rays.

/

81 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:35:27pm

Between the Franklin stove and the lightning rod, BF has saved thousands of lives. Maybe more than that.

82 Idle Drifter  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:35:36pm

re: #79 ProLifeLiberal

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like assigning a score to women.

I edited the last part off. It was in bad taste.

83 dell*nix  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:35:46pm

re: #77 ggt

Well, the visor only helps with the micro-mini drones with the infrared beams for accessing the eyes.

/

84 EdDantes  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:39:17pm

I'm invoking the Iron Fist rule. Good evening, everyone!

85 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:41:48pm

re: #83 dell*nix

Well, the visor only helps with the micro-mini drones with the infrared beams for accessing the eyes.

/

sounds like I might still want one.

/

86 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:41:57pm

re: #84 EdDantes

I'm invoking the Iron Fist rule. Good evening, everyone!

Sleep well then, and thank you.

87 dell*nix  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:43:24pm

re: #76 prairiefire

Intell is never as good as people claim it to be.

88 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:45:41pm

re: #87 dell*nix

Intell is never as good as people claim it to be.

I think things have changed in the last ten years. I guess we will have to wait for the memoirs.

89 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:56:17pm

How did this get through the censors?

91 dell*nix  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:01:16pm

re: #89 ProLifeLiberal

May have to start watching cartoons again. After all, I am heading for my second childhood:)

92 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:01:55pm

re: #89 ProLifeLiberal

How did this get through the censors?

[Video]

I don't even want where Gotham City's skyline is on this one! ;)

93 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:03:42pm

Sheesh. Alex lives about four miles south of me.

I'm shocked, shocked that his blather inspired this.

94 austin_blue  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:06:46pm

re: #43 ggt

You mean, it could be any of us???

Read Good Omens. Hilarious.

95 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:08:13pm

re: #94 austin_blue

Read Good Omens. Hilarious.

In my queue.

96 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:09:29pm

re: #93 austin_blue

Sheesh. Alex lives about four miles south of me.

I'm shocked, shocked that his blather inspired this.

Your winnings, Captain. (hands over stack of currency)

97 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:10:17pm

re: #92 Dark_Falcon

I don't even want to know where Gotham City's skyline is on this one! ;)

PIMF

98 sagehen  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:14:32pm

re: #43 ggt

You mean, it could be any of us???

It can't be me, I'm a cylon.

99 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:20:58pm

I just found this on TVTropes. My opinion of Vaclav Havel just went up more.

Vaclav Havel, Czech President, famously prescribed his way of dealing with living under the insanity and irrationality of communist oppression in the '70s and '80s: he said that regardless of what the communists attempted to impose on him, he lived his life as if he were truly free.

100 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:26:16pm

re: #98 sagehen

It can't be me, I'm a cylon.

but, is that a good thing?

101 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:27:05pm
102 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:28:05pm

re: #98 sagehen

It can't be me, I'm a cylon.

Would you pleas send a tack force over to the Battletech universe, then?! Those Damn Colonials smoked another battlegroup I was a part of yesterday!

/Gamer Geek

103 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:28:38pm
104 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:29:15pm

re: #101 BigPapa

We wish you a Merry Christmas... ditto.

Ha! I would be the "ditto" house.

105 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:32:42pm

re: #101 BigPapa

We wish you a Merry Christmas... ditto.

OMG! I LOVE IT!

106 Kragar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:41:08pm

re: #102 Dark_Falcon

Would you pleas send a tack force over to the Battletech universe, then?! Those Damn Colonials smoked another battlegroup I was a part of yesterday!

/Gamer Geek

Virus bomb, then have the Adeptus Mechanicus send in a colony fleet after 100 years.

107 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:42:11pm

re: #98 sagehen

It can't be me, I'm a cylon.

Is there anything in the Bible that says that a Cylon can't be the Antichrist? Because there's nothing in the Constitution that says that a Cylon can't be President.

108 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:47:26pm

re: #107 SanFranciscoZionist

Is there anything in the Bible that says that a Cylon can't be the Antichrist? Because there's nothing in the Constitution that says that a Cylon can't be President.

I really need to rent the last couple of seasons and watch them.

109 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:48:35pm

Just so you know, the young people are txting Happy Birthday as "hbd".

Must keep up.

:0

110 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:50:35pm

Calling Hillary. Wheeee !

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

111 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:52:18pm

re: #110 Ojoe

Calling Hillary. Wheee !

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

I've often thought that might be the plan.

Not so sure, but I wouldn't mind.

112 Kragar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:53:04pm

re: #108 ggt

I really need to rent the last couple of seasons and watch them.

Netflix has the whole series online.

113 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:53:26pm

re: #112 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Netflix has the whole series.

I know. It's just taking the time to watch.

114 makeitstop  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:57:04pm

re: #110 Ojoe

Calling Hillary. Wheee !

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Caddell is a freakin' loser, and he's dreaming if he thinks Obama is going to step aside.

115 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 10:06:52pm

re: #106 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Virus bomb, then have the Adeptus Mechanicus send in a colony fleet after 100 years.

Go away, you crazy Blakist!

(Seriously, some the Empire's for fanatical defenders would find themselves right at home in the Word of Blake. Their religious fervor and focus on obedience and technology would make them kindred spirits to the Servants of Blake's Will.)

/Extreme Gamer Geeking in progress

116 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 10:10:18pm

I'm out for the night, I hope.

Have a great morning/evening all!

117 Kragar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 10:13:24pm

re: #115 Dark_Falcon

Go away, you crazy Blakist!

(Seriously, some the Empire's for fanatical defenders would find themselves right at home in the Word of Blake. Their religious fervor and focus on obedience and technology would make them kindred spirits to the Servants of Blake's Will.)

/Extreme Gamer Geeking in progress

See, first you get your Emperor to set up a secular regime, then you enshrine him and get your religious fundamentalists.

118 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 10:16:44pm

re: #117 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

See, first you get your Emperor to set up a secular regime, then you enshrine him and get your religious fundamentalists.

Yep, its exactly the same thing. and in both cases it results in fanatics who are quite willing to unleash super germs against those deemed 'infidels'. The key difference is that the Word of Blake is eventually overthrown and replaced by a less repressive organization.

119 darthstar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 10:19:52pm
120 Kragar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 10:20:40pm

re: #118 Dark_Falcon

Yep, its exactly the same thing. and in both cases it results in fanatics who are quite willing to unleash super germs against those deemed 'infidels'. The key difference is that the Word of Blake is eventually overthrown and replaced by a less repressive organization.

Obviously their faith was lacking.

121 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 10:21:20pm

re: #119 darthstar

Occupy Wall Street - no cops, no pepper spray.

Well you could drive by and pepper-spray the fellow to make him feel "part of the movement".

/kidding

122 Kragar  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 10:47:50pm

Occupy vs Tea Party: what their Twitter networks reveal

According to some political commentators, Occupy Wall Street is the left's answer to the Tea Party - driven by a similar anger towards elites. But the social networks of people tweeting about the two movements suggest that they have rather different dynamics.

Those tweeting about the Tea Party emerge as a tight-knit "in crowd", following one another's tweets. By contrast, the network of people tweeting about Occupy consists of a looser series of clusters, in which the output of a few key people is being vigorously retweeted.

The Occupy network also has many casual unconnected tweeters, shown to the bottom right of the diagram below. Whether Occupy takes off as a coherent movement may depend on its success in bringing these potential recruits into the fold.

123 sagehen  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 11:07:23pm
124 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 11:15:14pm

re: #8 McSpiff

Can't say I've ever seen him flip-flop. Tends to be against the federal government pretty consistently. Seems like each side tends to own him a bit more when they're out of power tho.

Bullshit. None of Jones' positions are particularly leftist (except perhaps the usual pro-legalizing-pot/anti-war sentiment):

Abortion - Murder, eugenicist plot.

Economy - Free market

Global Warming - Fake, a plot by Al Gore and others to move commerce away and destroy the middle class. Caused by the sun.

Gun Control - Everyone must have guns to resist a tyrannical government, guns reduce crime rates. Gun grabbers want you dead.

Health Care - Private, wants doctors to do charity medical care for free but the culture has dehumanized the patients.

Security at airports - remove groping and scanners, racially profile.

Immigration - Deport everyone who comes illegally, put the troops on the border.

Social Security - designed to make people passive and to bankrupt the nation.

Taxes - Lowering taxes leads to prosperity always.

United Nations - Globalist controllers, evil eugenicist.

[Link: forums.randi.org...]

125 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 11:22:11pm

re: #18 Lidane

I'm 7 minutes into this bullshit video and he's already naming Soros and the White House. Alex Jones outright says that the whole OWS movement is a fake, astroturfed movement created by Soros, the banks, the White House and the globalists to give themselves cover. For what, I'm not sure, but that's his take on it.

Lots of people took his lead. *ahem*

126 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 11:35:48pm

re: #33 ggt

Seems its a month for lone gunmen.

What will the Conspiracy Theorists make of that?

See for yourself:

[Link: www.infowars.com...]
[Link: forum.prisonplanet.com...]
[Link: forum.prisonplanet.com...]

127 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 20, 2011 11:40:23pm

re: #99 ProLifeLiberal

I just found this on TVTropes. My opinion of Vaclav Havel just went up more.

That statement makes his snitching on behalf of the Commies look even worse.

128 freetoken  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 12:22:22am
129 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 12:55:23am

I see Spain has moved heavily towards the Right after yesterday's election.

130 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:22:58am

Spain moved away from any party that proposes the necessary and inevitable budget cuts. They are never popular.

131 researchok  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:37:19am

Morning, all

132 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:38:31am

Norway massacre: Breivik 'planned to kill politicians'

The man who confessed to killing 77 people in Norway in July planned to kill three leaders of the ruling Labour Party, a newspaper reports.

[…]

Anders Behring Breivik told police he had memorised a speech to be read and recorded before executing them, according to Norwegian tabloid VG.

None of the three - Gro Harlem Brundtland, Jonas Gahr Stoere and Eskil Pedersen - was hurt in the attacks.

[…]

According to transcripts VG said it had obtained, Breivik had wanted to abduct Ms Brundtland, a former prime minister, as well as Mr Gahr Stoere, the foreign minister, and Mr Pedersen, head of the party's youth wing.

Ms Brundtland and Mr Gahr Stoere visited Utoeya just before the attacks, and Mr Pedersen was on the island when they happened.

Breivik reportedly told interrogators he had planned to film the executions, in which he would have used a bayonet or knife, and send video to the media through the internet.

However, he changed his mind because of the time it would have taken to upload the clips, the VG report says.

VG executives would not say how the paper had obtained the interrogation details.

[…]

Breivik's defence lawyer, Geir Lippestad, told VG his client had launched his attack on the island as a result of the failure of his bomb to demolish the prime minister's offices in Oslo.

The date of Breivik's trial has been set for 16 April, pending psychiatric tests.

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

133 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:42:44am

I would not make too much of Ortega-Hernandez' political associations. He is obviously nuts, and I suspect that his political views are influenced by whichever ideological arguments he is exposed to.

My concern is for the ones who are stone-cold sane and still think (and act) along similar lines...

134 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:43:53am

re: #132 000G

* Gro Harlem Brundtland, former PM of Norway and former Director General of the World Health Organization, current Special Envoy on Climate Change for the United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon.
* Jonas Gahr Støre, current Norwegian Minister of Foreign Affairs.
* Eskil Pedersen, current leader of the Workers' Youth League, the youth organisation associated with Norway's leading Labour Party.
* Jens Stoltenberg, current PM of Norway.

135 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:45:11am

re: #133 ralphieboy

Some ideologies are more nuts than others.

136 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:47:50am

re: #135 000G

Some ideologies are more nuts than others.

Most ideologies have at least a grain of truth or sanity at their core: it depends heavily on the people who interpret and implement them.

137 freetoken  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 1:58:17am
138 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 2:23:15am

re: #136 ralphieboy

Most ideologies have at least a grain of truth or sanity at their core: it depends heavily on the people who interpret and implement them.

Of course the actual content and impact of ideologies depends on people: People made up ideologies to begin with. That doesn't mean, however, that all ideologies are equally sane/nuts and that people attracted to them and acting on their behalf can only be identified as being privately nuts, with their individual nuttiness having no causal relation to the particular ideology in question.

My original statement stands unmodified: Some ideologies are more nuts than others.

MBF only holds true when some ideologies are demonstrably equally nuts or nuts to a similar degree.

139 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 2:40:39am

There is no objective scale of nuttiness when it comes to comparing ideologies. I just wanted to point out that O-H is f*cking insane and his political associations play only a peripheral role.

Any attempt to brand him a reperesentative of right or left thinking is simply demagoguery.

140 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 2:43:48am

re: #139 ralphieboy

There is no objective scale of nuttiness when it comes to comparing ideologies.

Well, I assert that deeming all judgements of nuttiness to be purely subjective is nutty itself.

Any attempt to brand him a reperesentative of right or left thinking is simply demagoguery.

I disagree.

141 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 2:46:05am

re: #140 000G

Well, I assert that deeming all judgements of nuttiness to be purely subjective is nutty itself.

Not "purely" subjective, just not objectively quantifiable.

142 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 2:49:57am

re: #141 ralphieboy

Not "purely" subjective, just not objectively quantifiable.

Well, even that is not true. It's quite easy to demonstrate that Charles Manson's or Jim Jones' ideologies were nuttier than your average ho-hum liberal ideology, and do so "objectively" (notwithstanding the fact that objective/subjective distinctions are ideological themselves).

143 tnguitarist  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 2:53:50am

Why do I get the feeling that Rush Limbaugh will be a huge nascar fan today?

144 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 2:59:36am

re: #142 000G

Well, even that is not true. It's quite easy to demonstrate that Charles Manson's or Jim Jones' ideologies were nuttier than your average ho-hum liberal ideology, and do so "objectively" (notwithstanding the fact that objective/subjective distinctions are ideological themselves).

When it comes to political ideologies, I agree (subjectively) that Pol Pot was "nuttier" than Ron Paul, and that Joseph Stalin was "crazier" than Ayn Rand.

But what would the criteria be? Absolute number of victims? Number of victims a a percentage of population? That is what I mean by "not objectively quantifiable."

In any case, I think it will be demonstrated in court that O-H is mentally incompetent to stand trial, thus "insane" in the legal sense. At which point I would find his political associations to be of only secondary importance.

145 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:04:12am

re: #144 ralphieboy

But what would the criteria be? Absolute number of victims? Number of victims a a percentage of population? That is what I mean by "not objectively quantifiable."

I don't see what you mean. There is a variety of applicable criteria. These may differ between people. That doesn't make them subjective, though. Models with which to quantify events and compare them differ even in physics.

146 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:35:47am

Shit is getting seriously weird in Egypt again.

147 Flounder  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:38:39am

Good morning everyone.
Saturday was opening day in the southern tier of New York for deer season. [Link: www.timesunion.com...]
Thats when the locals paint "HORSE" in bright green fluorescent paint on their farm animals so the yahoos from NYC and NJ don't shoot them. Imagine my surprise this morning, while rocking out to Selena Gomez, a big-ass 6 point buck survived the weekend and decided to stand in the middle of the road, with me hurtling toward it. Missed the effer, barely. Don't need coffee now, I'm wide awake.

148 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:42:45am

re: #147 Shropshire_Slasher

A friend of mine drove into a moose. Totaled his car, broke his collarbone, and the moose looked slightly annoyed, too.

149 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:44:18am

Minor story, relative to the chaos going on right now, but still worth relaying:

Egypt's naked blogger is a bomb aimed at the patriarchs in our minds

She might have been born 10 years into Hosni Mubarak's rule, but Mahdy understands the way personal freedoms have steadily shrunk in Egypt. The double whammy of military rule – in place since 1952 – along with the growing influence of Islamism, ensured that. Mubarak would fill jails with Islamists, but would fight their ideas not by giving civil and personal liberties room to express themselves, but through conservative clerics employed by the state. When the only two sides fighting are conservative – even if one of them is just conservative in appearance – then everyone loses. And women don't just lose; they're also used as cheap ammunition.

Witness the ultra-conservative Salafi party's use of female candidates on their list: it looks good when you have female candidates; you can tell the feminists who decry your misogynistic ideology to shut up. But the said candidates have no face, and no voice. On election pamphlets, a rose represented one Salafi female candidate – and soon after, the rose was replaced by a picture of the candidate's husband. There are reports that if Salafi women win parliamentary seats, their husbands or a male guardians will speak on their behalf because Salafis consider a woman's voice to be sinful.

While Mahdy's act has been hashtagged (#NudePhotoRevolutionary) and her name tweeted and Facebooked endlessly, others did not receive such attention. Samira Ibrahim, the only one of the women subjected to "virginity tests" who is taking the military to court for sexual assault, has neither a dedicated hashtag nor notoriety. Another woman, Salwa el-Husseini, was the first to reveal what the military did to them, but news reports have said she can't raise a lawsuit because she doesn't have identification papers.

Not only did el-Husseini speak out, she courageously agreed to be filmed at a session of testimonies on military abuses. Again, hardly anyone knows her name, her recorded testimony isn't racking up page views, and she was called a liar and vilified for speaking out. Both women have vehemently maintained they were virgins.

If "good girls" in headscarves who kept their legs together only to be violated by the military speak out and no one listens, what's the message being sent? When the military justified its violations by saying "those girls aren't like your daughter or mine. These were girls who had camped out in tents with male protesters in Tahrir Square", what's the message?

Some in the liberal camp have accused Mahdy of "harming" the revolution by allegedly confirming the stereotypes of revolutionaries that its opponents hold. Shame on them! Why allow those opponents to set the agenda for "good" and "bad". Since when do revolutions allow their conservative opponents to set the agenda?

150 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:44:36am

re: #146 000G

Shit is getting seriously weird in Egypt again.

It wants to revert to a military state, with no civilian control over the military budget. Sounds like the standard Middle Eastern conflict of interest: do we support a secular military dictatorship or an Islamist democracy?

151 Flounder  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:46:56am

I'm sure CCA covered this but I couldn't resist.
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]
Talk about junk in the trunk!

152 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:47:15am

re: #150 ralphieboy

It wants to

I dunno. Sounds to me like the fight over what "Egypt wants" is on again. And no, I do not agree that "do we support a secular military dictatorship or an Islamist democracy" is a correct dichotomy.

153 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:51:27am
The number of people wounded in two days of clashes in Egypt has reached 1,700, a health ministry spokesman said Monday.

In addition, 20 people have died, including 10 on Sunday in confrontations between protesters and security forces in Cairo.

Doctors at Cairo's Tahrir Square said injuries include gunshot wounds, excessive tear gas inhalations and beatings to the head.

[Link: edition.cnn.com...]

154 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:51:45am

Not an absolute dichotomy, but a tendency. Look at the current situation in Turkey. And look at The Shah of Iran, Mubarak, Saddam and Qaddafi, who were, for all their other excesses, nonetheless secularists.

155 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:52:25am

re: #153 000G

Egypt's parliamentary elections are set to take place November 28. But demonstrators are upset about a proposed constitutional principle that would shield the military's budget from scrutiny by civilian powers. They worry that the military would be shaped as a state within a state.

156 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:56:34am

Morning Honcos.

157 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:57:11am

re: #151 Shropshire_Slasher

I'm sure CCA covered this but I couldn't resist.
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]
Talk about junk in the trunk!

I did see that. Heh.

158 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:58:04am

re: #154 ralphieboy

Not an absolute dichotomy, but a tendency. Look at the current situation in Turkey. And look at The Shah of Iran, Mubarak, Saddam and Qaddafi, who were, for all their other excesses, nonetheless secularists.

You really want to call Qaddafi a "secularist"? And Egypt under Mubarak is supposed to have been "secular"? Really?

159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 3:58:10am

re: #147 Shropshire_Slasher

Deer me.

160 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:02:03am

Good Morning Honcos!

161 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:06:23am

re: #158 000G

You really want to call Qaddafi a "secularist"? And Egypt under Mubarak is supposed to have been "secular"? Really?

"Secularist" is the wrong word, "non-fundamentalist" is what I was after. Remember that Mubarak suppressed the Islamic Brotherhood, and Qadaffi allowed women's rights to an extent unknown in many other Muslim nations.

162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:08:18am

re: #158 000G

I'm opining here on that which I don't know much about. So, if I'm not understanding you properly? Please enlighten me.

I don't think the country's constitutions relate in any way to whether the men were secularist or not. Daffy, for example.

While he was a professed Muslim; he was a sadistic, murdering fuck, who used Islam as a hammer as it was necessary. He died a very, very rich man by stealing from the people of Libya. I doubt there is an honest Muslim Cleric who would agree that Daffy is in the arms of Allah.

He may not be the definition of Secularist; but he sure wasn't a Muslim either.

163 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:10:30am

re: #162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

While he was a professed Muslim; he was a sadistic, murdering fuck, who used Islam as a hammer as it was necessary. He died a very, very rich man by stealing from the people of Libya. I doubt there is an honest Muslim Cleric who would agree that Daffy is in the arms of Allah.

He may not be the definition of Secularist; but he sure wasn't a Muslim either.

If Islamists are Muslims, so was Qadaffi. This does not touch the question of whether he was a good Muslim or a bad one. I am not interested in "No True Scotsman" arguments.

164 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:11:15am

re: #161 ralphieboy

Remember that Mubarak suppressed the Islamic Brotherhood,

Only to install his own clerics for political gain.

and Qadaffi allowed women's rights to an extent unknown in many other Muslim nations.

Does that include his rape room?

165 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:13:40am

re: #161 ralphieboy

re: #162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

000G is always right. Assimilate now.

166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:16:26am

re: #163 000G

Excuse me very much. I wasn't trying to be argumentative.

I forget that you just like to argue for the hell of it.

167 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:18:15am

re: #164 000G

Only to install his own clerics for political gain.

Does that include his rape room?

None of this is clear-cut. Of course Saddam prayed in Mosques and Mubarak used clerics to promote his political agenda.

But there seem to be two competing tendencies in the Islamic World, especially after the Arab Spring: a true "representative" democracy often includes fundamentalist Islamists.

The forces that mitigate Islamism and fundamentalism tend to be the military hierarchies, which often rely on foreign aid for their continued existence and do not watn to put off their sponsors by appearing too Islamist.

168 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:18:30am

re: #162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don't think the country's constitutions relate in any way to whether the men were secularist or not.

That's not really the point I was trying to make.

Tyranny is always tyranny, whether it be Shah or Mullah.

Democracy may turn into tyranny, but while it is democracy, it is not tyranny.

Opining about whether democracy will turn into islamist tyranny through "one man, one vote, one time" is idle. Foregone conclusions are at best deciding that there is no difference between democracy and tyranny in islamic countries (which is wrong) and at worst helping to develop a self-fulfilling prophecy that actively discourages people from helping democratic efforts.

169 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:20:27am

re: #166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Excuse me very much. I wasn't trying to be argumentative.

Having an argument does not neccessarily mean to be argumentative or to have a "fight". How else would you like to come to productive results from differing opinions though if not through having an argument. Nothing bad about having an argument, per se.

I forget that you just like to argue for the hell of it.

I don't.

170 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:20:45am

"One man one vote" or "one person one vote"?. That is a key issue.

171 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:21:36am

"I came here for an argument!"

"Sorry, this is abuse. You want two doors down!"

172 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:22:51am

re: #166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Excuse me very much. I wasn't trying to be argumentative.

I forget that you just like to argue for the hell of it.

You know, I really like potatoes.

173 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:23:52am

re: #172 rwdflynavy
I'll be in Big Lick Wed-Sat. Probably not enough time to get together, but give me a shout if you are interested.

174 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:24:13am

re: #172 rwdflynavy

You know, I really like potatoes.

No you don't.

175 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:24:45am

re: #167 ralphieboy

But there seem to be two competing tendencies in the Islamic World, especially after the Arab Spring: a true "representative" democracy often includes fundamentalist Islamists.

Do you think the election system in the US and the UK that effectively exclude minor parties unfairly marginalizes radicals and extremists? Do you think that Germany heavily curtailing extremist parties (left and right) makes them significantly less representative? I don't ask these questions just rhetorically.

I think radicals can be included while structuring the democratic system in a way that they do not become a power easily tearing down the system, and I believe you can do so without making the system undemocratic or unrepresentative in a meaningful sense.

The forces that mitigate Islamism and fundamentalism tend to be the military hierarchies, which often rely on foreign aid for their continued existence and do not watn to put off their sponsors by appearing too Islamist.

I agree that it is a tightrope walk rank of hypocrisy. And ripe for exploitation from all players.

176 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:25:01am

re: #174 Obdicut

No you don't.

Dammit! You're right, I totally like rice instead. Damn Starches!!

177 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:27:10am

re: #172 rwdflynavy

You know, I really like potatoes.

I LIKE 'EM FRIED! I LIKE 'EM MASHED!

POTATOES!

178 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:27:52am

bbl

179 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:34:23am

re: #178 000G

bbl

nyw (no you won't)

180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:35:06am

I wonder.

Does Democracy descend into Tyranny with a Proclamation?

"I henceforth am not President FBV, but am FBV the Tyrannical."

181 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:37:05am

Fat-Bastard-For-Life

182 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:38:20am

re: #181 ralphieboy

Fat-Bastard-For-Life

With 99% of the vote.

183 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:44:12am

re: #180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I wonder.

Does Democracy descend into Tyranny with a Proclamation?

"I henceforth am not President FBV, but am FBV the Tyrannical."

Nice try, but your spouse still gets 51% of the vote, just like in my house.

184 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:57:36am

re: #182 Decatur Deb

With 99% of the vote.

101.5% of the vote, people would be crossing the border from Canada to vote for you...

185 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:09:05am

Morning all!

What's it like by you?

186 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:10:12am

Off to class. Stay scaly lizards.

187 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:26:00am

Morning Lizardim from the cold and snowy wild north country. We did indeed finally get our first snow on Saturday, and my dad and I both took our new (to us) cars out to test the handling in the adverse weather conditions. Once again, the idiot brigade was out in force, with a total of 5 cars counted off the highway in a span of roughly 10 miles. Today dawns with a round of icy fog that will certainly light up the landscape if the sun ever comes out. What is new out there in the land of the odd?

188 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:26:47am

Has this come thru our email yet?

Best Bar in England.

[Link: file.qip.ru...]

189 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:26:56am

re: #172 rwdflynavy

You know, I really like potatoes.

What's taters, precious?

190 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:28:28am

I have a sick teenager and a sick dog.

191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:28:35am

re: #187 thedopefishlives

A bit damp this morning... missed the garbage truck, had to run outside and move the can across the street for the back-around.

Ran out barefooted, ready for the cold shock to hit? 70 degrees.

That's nice.

192 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:28:46am

re: #187 thedopefishlives

read about a massive pile-up on the autobahn caused by the sun suddenly appearing from behind the clouds at a low angle, blinding a driver and causing him to plow into the end of a row of already backed-up cars.

proveconfirmed my notion that people will drive like idiots, come rain, fog, snow or sunshine...

193 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:30:02am

re: #192 ralphieboy

read about a massive pile-up on the autobahn caused by the sun suddenly appearing from behind the clouds at a low angle, blinding a driver and causing him to plow into the end of a row of already backed-up cars.

proveconfirmed my notion that people will drive like idiots, come rain, fog, snow or sunshine...

humans!

194 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:30:31am

re: #192 ralphieboy

read about a massive pile-up on the autobahn caused by the sun suddenly appearing from behind the clouds at a low angle, blinding a driver and causing him to plow into the end of a row of already backed-up cars.

proveconfirmed my notion that people will drive like idiots, come rain, fog, snow or sunshine...

See, here in Minnesota, we don't even need the sun as an excuse. We have idiots that get into wrecks for no discernible reason other than "because I can, dammit".

195 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:32:18am

re: #194 thedopefishlives

See, here in Minnesota, we don't even need the sun as an excuse. We have idiots that get into wrecks for no discernible reason other than "because I can, dammit".

What I don't understand is the people who end-up in a ditch by just driving on the road.

I mean, there are a lot of good reasons to end-up in the ditch during bad weather, but just driving in a straight line isn't one of them.

196 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:33:15am

re: #195 ggt

What I don't understand is the people who end-up in a ditch by just driving on the road.

I mean, there are a lot of good reasons to end-up in the ditch during bad weather, but just driving in a straight line isn't one of them.

One of the guys that was in the ditch actually buried the front end of his car. His two rear wheels were literally off the ground by about a foot. I was like, seriously, how in the heck do you do that?

197 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:34:35am

re: #196 thedopefishlives

One of the guys that was in the ditch actually buried the front end of his car. His two rear wheels were literally off the ground by about a foot. I was like, seriously, how in the heck do you do that?

No clue.

Driving too fast, hit from the rear?

198 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:35:23am

Dow futures looking down but not catastrophic.

199 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:35:39am

re: #197 ggt

No clue.

Driving too fast, hit from the rear?

No rear-end damage. Probably a combination of driving too fast and then stomping on his brakes to slow down behind a more prudent driver. At which point he would've slid, panicked, and then it's all downhill from there.

200 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:37:18am

re: #196 thedopefishlives

One of the guys that was in the ditch actually buried the front end of his car. His two rear wheels were literally off the ground by about a foot. I was like, seriously, how in the heck do you do that?

Pretty easy. Think that you can do this...

11. You taught me "When the going gets tough, the tough get going," teaching me to plod forward in the face of certain doom.

Garrison Keillor, From his "95 Theses", Lake Wobegon Days

201 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:37:19am

re: #199 thedopefishlives

Actually, it's a good thing he ditched where he did. About half a mile up, the road becomes a sort of land-bridge across the southern tip of a lake. If he'd gone off that side of the road at that point, he'd be in the water.

202 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:40:16am

re: #201 thedopefishlives

Actually, it's a good thing he ditched where he did. About half a mile up, the road becomes a sort of land-bridge across the southern tip of a lake. If he'd gone off that side of the road at that point, he'd be in the water.

**shiver**

203 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:42:22am

re: #202 ggt

**shiver**

Yeah. At least the water there isn't terribly deep - more like a swamp. But still. Not a fun place to be off the road. You'd think that would make people be more cautious, but then again, some of these idiots are the guys that drive their snowmobiles across open water. *shrug*

204 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:46:21am

More info on yesterday's terrorist arrest: NYC police arrest 'lone wolf' in terror bomb plot

``We think an event that really set him off was the elimination of Anwar al-Awlaki,'' Kelly said. ``His actions became a lot more intense after Sept. 30.''

A U.S. drone strike killed Awlaki, a U.S. citizen, in Yemen in late September, ending a two-year hunt. U.S. intelligence called him the ``chief of external operations'' for al Qaeda's Yemen branch and a Internet-savvy propagandist.

Kelly said Pimentel ``talked about changing his name to Osama Hussein to celebrate his heroes Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.''

205 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:48:42am

re: #204 Killgore Trout

More info on yesterday's terrorist arrest: NYC police arrest 'lone wolf' in terror bomb plot

Lone Gunman

206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:49:08am

re: #204 Killgore Trout

Dude looks crazy as a loon, if you ask me.

207 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:49:43am

re: #206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dude looks crazy as a loon, if you ask me.

Why are loons crazy?

208 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:50:08am

re: #207 ggt

Why are loons crazy?

You would be too if you laid eggs.

209 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:50:45am

re: #208 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You would be too if you laid eggs.

So, any creature that lays eggs is crazy?

210 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:51:29am

re: #209 ggt

So, any creature that lays eggs is crazy?

"No true Scotsman" argument. Don't be an ass.
/

211 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:51:38am

re: #207 ggt

Why are loons crazy?

Their cries sound kind of plaintive and insane.

212 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:52:06am

re: #206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dude looks crazy as a loon, if you ask me.

Hey, that's our state bird, I'll have you know. You calling us crazy?
/Well, if Michelle Bachmann is anything to go by, I suppose

213 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:53:38am

re: #211 Obdicut

Their cries sound kind of plaintive and insane.

[Video]

That is actually beautiful.

214 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:56:24am

re: #211 Obdicut

Come here, Norman. Hurry up. The loons! The loons! They're welcoming us back.
-On Golden Pond

And also from On Golden Pond

Billy Ray: So, I heard you turned 80 today.
Norman: Is that what you heard?
Billy Ray: Yeah. Man, that's really old.
Norman: You should meet my father.
Billy Ray: Your father's still alive?
Norman: No, but you should meet him.

215 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:56:41am

re: #206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dude looks crazy as a loon, if you ask me.

'Al-Qaida sympathizer' accused of NYC bomb plots; defense says he's no conspirator
Crazy or stupid. It looks like he was pretty open about his plans.

At Pimentel's arraignment, his lawyer Joseph Zablocki said his client's behavior leading up to the arrest was not that of a conspirator trying to conceal some violent scheme. Zablocki said Pimentel was public about his activities and was not trying to hide anything.

"I don't believe that this case is nearly as strong as the people believe," Zablocki said. "He (Pimentel) has this very public online profile. ... This is not the way you go about committing a terrorist attack."
....
Kelly said a confidential informant had numerous conversations with Pimentel on Sept. 7 in which he expressed interest in building small bombs and targeting banks, government and police buildings.

Pimentel also posted on his website trueislam1.com and on blogs his support of al-Qaida and belief in jihad, and promoted an online magazine article that described in detail how to make a bomb, Kelly said.

216 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 5:57:51am

I'm off, have a great day all!

217 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:14:10am

re: #215 Killgore Trout

I guess any super-religious "kill those who don't agree with me!" fervor has an element of crazypants to it.

218 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:21:12am

re: #217 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I guess any super-religious "kill those who don't agree with me!" fervor has an element of crazypants to it.

The website he was posting on looks like an FBI operation. Under "Informative books for Muslims" they list The Davinci Code and Islam and the West by Bernard Lewis. It looks like the Feds sent an informant to help him along.Expect the usual cries about entrapment.

219 prairiefire  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:22:24am

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A bit damp this morning... missed the garbage truck, had to run outside and move the can across the street for the back-around.

Ran out barefooted, ready for the cold shock to hit? 70 degrees.

That's nice.

Now that's good planning,

220 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:23:52am

re: #218 Killgore Trout

They also list "ISRAEL LOBBY AND US FOREIGN POLICY BY JOHN J. MEIRSHAMER & STEPHEN M. WALT". Also used by OWS LA to deflect allegations of antisemitism as a plot by the Jewish lobby.

221 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:26:38am
[I]t is the richest who have the most interest in political stability, which depends upon broad societal agreement that the existing distribution of rewards is fair and reasonable. If the social order comes to seem unjust to large numbers of people, what happens next will make Occupy Wall Street look like a street fair.

-- David Frum, Commie

222 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:28:08am

Okay this is about as pissed as I ever get at DC policy stuff. But Politico needs to buy the FAIL blog right away...

The deficit super committee is about to announce,,,, Nothing. They have no deal, no solutions.

223 darthstar  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:28:19am

Mornin' everyone! Good news...the "Super-committee" is ready to admit they failed!...that means there will be 1.2 trillion in austerity measures the government will have to weasel out of making (don't worry, the pentagon will get a waiver from any cuts - Congress only wants to fuck over the old and poor). Better yet, it means 1.7 trillion dollars gets put back into the kitty at the end of next year, since the Bush tax cuts will expire.

For once, doing nothing was the right thing to do. I just don't understand why Congress makes it look so hard to accomplish.

224 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:31:50am

re: #223 darthstar

Mornin' everyone! Good news...the "Super-committee" is ready to admit they failed!...that means there will be 1.2 trillion in austerity measures the government will have to weasel out of making (don't worry, the pentagon will get a waiver from any cuts - Congress only wants to fuck over the old and poor). Better yet, it means 1.7 trillion dollars gets put back into the kitty at the end of next year, since the Bush tax cuts will expire.

For once, doing nothing was the right thing to do. I just don't understand why Congress makes it look so hard to accomplish.

The problem with the Bush tax cuts expiring like this is they raise taxes for everybody, not just the wealthy. In today's shitty economy I don't think that's a good thing. The Dems might try to re-introduce the cuts for lower income brackets but I guess the Republicans will insist on cuts for the wealthy too.

225 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:33:49am

re: #224 Killgore Trout

I hold the GOP 80% responsible for the fail. The Norquist oath is just killing all reason.

226 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:35:20am

re: #224 Killgore Trout

The problem with the Bush tax cuts expiring like this is they raise taxes for everybody, not just the wealthy. In today's shitty economy I don't think that's a good thing. The Dems might try to re-introduce the cuts for lower income brackets but I guess the Republicans will insist on cuts for the wealthy too.

This right here. My taxes going up is the absolute last thing I need and would certainly drive my spending (and thus my contribution to economic growth) down. I know the government needs money, but there are people and corporations (but those are the same thing, amirite?) out there making a hell of a lot more money than I am and paying even less in taxes. Make them pay their fair share first, then if you're still short on funds, I might be persuaded to cough up a little more.

227 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:35:32am

re: #225 Rightwingconspirator

Why just 80%?

228 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:39:00am

re: #225 Rightwingconspirator

I hold the GOP 80% responsible for the fail. The Norquist oath is just killing all reason.

I gave up years ago...show me one smart, bipartisan economic measure to come down from the feds in ten tears....they have been punking us forever...anyone that expects results is a fool....and we still have Obamacare steaming down the pike, out of control...what a disaster these fools are leading into

229 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:39:22am

re: #227 000G

The GOP has 100% of the obstructionism, but I do have serious reservations about policies on the economy early in the Obama admin.

230 darthstar  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:39:32am

re: #224 Killgore Trout

The problem with the Bush tax cuts expiring like this is they raise taxes for everybody, not just the wealthy. In today's shitty economy I don't think that's a good thing. The Dems might try to re-introduce the cuts for lower income brackets but I guess the Republicans will insist on cuts for the wealthy too.

The tax cuts for the middle class aren't that big...for a family making 75K, the difference was about 1300 dollars (about 100 bucks a month). Cumulatively, they're huge, and make up the bulk of revenue. So to people complaining about paying their taxes, I simply have to say "Shut the fuck up and pay." Taking care of my parents' medical, having good roads and bridges, and employing police and fire is worth it.

231 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:41:56am

re: #230 darthstar

The tax cuts for the middle class aren't that big...for a family making 75K, the difference was about 1300 dollars (about 100 bucks a month). Cumulatively, they're huge, and make up the bulk of revenue. So to people complaining about paying their taxes, I simply have to say "Shut the fuck up and pay." Taking care of my parents' medical, having good roads and bridges, and employing police and fire is worth it.

100 bucks a month is a lot when you just bought your first house, had your first baby, and are looking to buy your first car. Some of us don't have the luxury of having buckets of leftover income to throw around. If you do, that's great, you're welcome to pay more.

232 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:42:07am

re: #229 Rightwingconspirator

The GOP has 100% of the obstructionism, but I do have serious reservations about policies on the economy early in the Obama admin.

they have no clue either....just shoot from the hip, hit or miss....3 years and they still have no plan, they just roll over

233 darthstar  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:47:03am

re: #231 thedopefishlives

100 bucks a month is a lot when you just bought your first house, had your first baby, and are looking to buy your first car. Some of us don't have the luxury of having buckets of leftover income to throw around. If you do, that's great, you're welcome to pay more.

Just bought my first house this year. Money's tight. It will be tight after the tax cuts end. I'll adjust.

234 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:49:26am

re: #231 thedopefishlives

The whole "If you have more, you're welcome to pay more" thing is very silly. Government funded by voluntary subscription isn't going to work, that's the realm of the most Ron Paul of the Ron Paulians.

I do agree that with larger and larger amounts of wealth accruing to the top percentile of wealth-holders in the US, that the taxes should be focused on those who can afford to pay. Sadly, the GOP doesn't. They're really staking everything on protecting tax cuts for the highest income earners.

I think people are starting to get a little sick of that intractability.

235 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:50:57am

Ojoe?

Snowy sunrise at Mt Wilson, just beautiful.

Image: towercam.jpg

236 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:51:00am

re: #233 darthstar

Just bought my first house this year. Money's tight. It will be tight after the tax cuts end. I'll adjust.

I didn't say I couldn't pay it; I certainly could. But by taking that money out of my pocket, you're delaying the economic recovery because now I'm delaying - or even flat-out canceling - a bunch of big-ticket spending in order to meet the increased tax burden.

re: #234 Obdicut

Yeah, I think I just said that line mostly as a reaction to the "suck it up and pay" mentality. It's not really a workable solution. I agree, and stated above, that taxes should be targeted at people who can afford to pay more.

237 darthstar  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:52:35am

re: #234 Obdicut

The whole "If you have more, you're welcome to pay more" thing is very silly.

It's not even worth addressing seriously.

238 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:53:27am

re: #234 Obdicut

The whole "If you have more, you're welcome to pay more" thing is very silly. Government funded by voluntary subscription isn't going to work, that's the realm of the most Ron Paul of the Ron Paulians.

That's why I thought that this Daily Caller "scoop" was incredibly lame: Wow, you exposed millionaires who demand higher taxes on millionaires as being unwilling to just make voluntary donations instead.

Oh the hypocrisy!


//9_9

239 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:55:57am

re: #236 thedopefishlives

I agree there'd be more utility in getting that tax revenue from people more able to afford it, but government spending does not get dumped into a black hole and vanish from the economy. Most US government spending goes right back into the economy. So while it's not as good for the economy as deficit spending or tax money sourced from those with lots of disposable income, it's important to remember that government spending is domestic spending.

That's why austerity measures are so fucking idiotic, and the attempt to slash the budget in the middle of a recession is, and always has been, absolutely counter to all common sense and uncommon sense.

241 darthstar  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:57:59am

re: #236 thedopefishlives

Big ticket spending isn't what keeps the economy going...sure, it helps when someone buys a Ferrari (especially for Italy)...but it helps more when people go to their local supermarket to buy groceries, or a department store for shoes for their kid.*


*Note: If you shop at Wal-Mart you're helping fuck the local economy, but that is a discussion for another time.

242 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 6:59:59am

re: #241 darthstar

Big ticket spending isn't what keeps the economy going...sure, it helps when someone buys a Ferrari (especially for Italy)...but it helps more when people go to their local supermarket to buy groceries, or a department store for shoes for their kid.*

*Note: If you shop at Wal-Mart you're helping fuck the local economy, but that is a discussion for another time.

Sure, but you get the idea. It is going to hurt consumer spending a bit if you increase taxes on people who don't have more disposable income than they know what to do with. Actually, Obdicut raises a good argument that the tax revenue is going to help the economy anyway because it goes into government spending.

243 recusancy  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:01:21am

OWS sign [Link: www.facebook.com...]

244 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:02:33am

Not all government spending helps "the economy". See Jefferson County, Alabama.

245 darthstar  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:03:21am

re: #235 Rightwingconspirator

Ojoe?

Snowy sunrise at Mt Wilson, just beautiful.

Image: towercam.jpg

I noticed you've picked up the Mt Wilson torch for Ojoe recently...thanks.

246 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:03:32am

re: #244 000G

Did anyone claim that all government spending helps the economy?

247 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:03:34am

Concrete guys showing up today to start digging the foundation for the greenhouse. I'm exited and nervous about the whole project. It's starting to run overbudget, I hope I can come up with all the cash when the bills start coming in.
The cats are coping with workmen in the house a lot better than anticipated. They don't like being locked away all day but at least they aren't in a panic like they have been in the past.

248 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:04:27am

re: #246 Obdicut

Did anyone claim that all government spending helps the economy?

No, but that was one black hole, right there.

249 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:05:26am

re: #247 Killgore Trout

It's starting to run overbudget, I hope I can come up with all the cash when the bills start coming in.

I am sure there's nice banks out there who will help you refinance.

250 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:06:27am

American spies outed, CIA suffers in Lebanon

The CIA's operations in Lebanon have been badly damaged after Hezbollah identified and captured a number of U.S. spies recently, current and former U.S. officials told The Associated Press. The intelligence debacle is particularly troubling because the CIA saw it coming.

251 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:07:35am

re: #248 000G

No, but that was one black hole, right there.

Well, no, it wasn't. Some of the money went to an over elaborate construction project; those wages aren't a black hole. The bulk of the problem was how it was financed, with tons of money being funneled to the banks giving them the CDO-style loans. So again, the money didn't disappear into a black hole, it went to those banks. That's not a very good place for money to go, and it's not very helpful for the economy in the current way the banks operate, but it's still not money simply vanishing.

252 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:09:16am

re: #249 000G

I am sure there's nice banks out there who will help you refinance.

Fat chance. I payed off my mortgage last year (about 18 years early) to avoid giving the banks the satisfaction of collecting interest. The last thing I want is to go into debt again. If anything I might have to get a line of credit and pay it off in 2-3 months.

253 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:09:27am

re: #247 Killgore Trout

You know you have a problem when you're over-budget by the time the guys are digging the footers.

254 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:11:02am

re: #250 Killgore Trout

I think this bit is very true, and very telling.

The Lebanon crisis is the latest mishap involving CIA counterintelligence, the undermining or manipulating of the enemy's ability to gather information. Former CIA officials have said that once-essential skill has been eroded as the agency shifted from outmaneuvering rival spy agencies to fighting terrorists. In the rush for immediate results, former officers say, tradecraft has suffered.

The wild-eyed Jihadists are probably pretty easy for the CIA to get info on. But Hezbollah and the other cagier, here-for-the-duration terrorist groups aren't just a bunch of yahoos with RPGs. And they're the bigger threat over the long run.

255 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:11:37am

re: #253 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You know you have a problem when you're over-budget by the time the guys are digging the footers.

These things always run over budget so I planned ahead for it. I'm so busy trying to juggle the logistics of the project I haven't had time to tally up the overrun in costs. Hopefully I'll be able to sit down and do some math later this week.

256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:13:21am
"Errors aren’t intentional, they don’t improve through punishment and they’re hard to predict. Usually they come about through a fault of the system. If somebody else could make the same mistake, it’s a systems error.

How we respond to errors is vitally important. The tendency can often be to place blame on the person involved. However the danger in this approach is that it discourages people from reporting errors or communicating openly for fear they will be blamed and punished. Even if individuals are identified and removed, the cause of the error usually remains unidentified and the risk that the error will happen again remains.

What we need to do if something goes wrong is pull back from the instinct to place blame and instead think more deeply about the contributing factors. We need to think about how the system got us to where we are and where the faults in it lie."

I just saw that quote. Thought it was worth posting. Unrelated to any discussions at hand.

257 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:13:34am

Yesterday there was a fight between Emelyanenko and Monson in Moscow. Putin personally came on stage to congratulate the winner (Em.). He got booed and whistled at.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

258 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:15:06am

re: #251 Obdicut

Well, no, it wasn't. Some of the money went to an over elaborate construction project; those wages aren't a black hole. The bulk of the problem was how it was financed, with tons of money being funneled to the banks giving them the CDO-style loans. So again, the money didn't disappear into a black hole, it went to those banks. That's not a very good place for money to go, and it's not very helpful for the economy in the current way the banks operate, but it's still not money simply vanishing.

Well, yes it was. There is still a ton of money due that never went to the banks and likely never will. Contracts left unfulfillable: That's the reason the county went bankrupt and now will have to see how to get its taxpayers out of that mess. An explosion of debt without any benefit whatsoever to "the economy".

If shit like that goes down on the State or Federal level, it will get unreal. The day that the Fed will not be able to pay its bills anymore is going to be interesting.

259 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:15:38am

re: #252 Killgore Trout

Fat chance. I payed off my mortgage last year (about 18 years early) to avoid giving the banks the satisfaction of collecting interest. The last thing I want is to go into debt again. If anything I might have to get a line of credit and pay it off in 2-3 months.

I was just teasing you. Well done, sir.

260 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:19:08am

Heh. The banks are on the other side of the event horizon here.

261 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:24:18am

“Once I saw the makeup of the supercommittee, I had serious doubts. ... I want to be very clear — we have the worst political class in America’s history, and they’re doing a terrible job of discharging their basic responsibility of passing a budget and spending money responsibly.”

[Link: bostonherald.com...]

262 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:24:35am

re: #260 000G

Heh. The banks are on the other side of the event horizon here.

Probably not, I don't think anything is going to change because people aren't going to change. They want easy credit so they can buy crap from big companies that they don't need. Even if the government enacts some sort of fix to people still want to over-consume. Banks and large corporations are more than happy to help us do that.

263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:27:51am

re: #262 Killgore Trout

Probably not, I don't think anything is going to change because people aren't going to change. They want easy credit so they can buy crap from big companies that they don't need. Even if the government enacts some sort of fix to people still want to over-consume. Banks and large corporations are more than happy to help us do that.

Imagine the economy if people decided to live simply.

Talk about an Armageddon.

264 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:28:44am

re: #258 000G

Well, yes it was. There is still a ton of money due that never went to the banks and likely never will.

But that money, then, didn't go anywhere; it never existed.

An explosion of debt without any benefit whatsoever to "the economy".

What are you talking about? There was actual construction, salaries did actually get paid. Are you just talking about the debt from the CDO stuff itself? The financing of the debt?

265 Gus  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:29:25am

Yep. Blame the consumer. Blame the ease of credit. Blame the poor.

Republicanism 101

Fascinating.

266 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:29:57am

re: #263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Imagine the economy if people decided to live simply.

Talk about an Armageddon.

I live very simply and I don't mind it a bit...I've had all the toys and all the stuff and don't need much...I travel, therefore I am

267 Interesting Times  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:30:30am

re: #263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Imagine the economy if people decided to live simply.

Talk about an Armageddon.

...which proves there's something fundamentally wrong and destructive about how the economy is set up. Infinite growth is not possible. When it does happen in nature, it's known as a) cancer cells, and b) parasites that kill their hosts.

[pipe dream]I'd like to see a fundamental re-working of the economy into a self-sustaining "steady state" instead[/pipe dream]

268 makeitstop  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:32:52am

re: #263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Imagine the economy if people decided to live simply.

Talk about an Armageddon.

We buy a lot of stuff, but we buy with cash/debit.

Credit cards are for emergencies.

269 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:35:22am

re: #265 Gus 802

Yep. Blame the consumer. Blame the ease of credit. Blame the poor.

Republicanism 101

Fascinating.

While I'm not one to absolve the banking industry of any responsibility for the current state of affairs, there is something to be said for the proliferation of the entitlement mentality among the middle class. Everyone seems to think they have earned the right to this, that, or the other thing. Combined with a complete lack of understanding of how credit works, it makes for an unstable spending pattern, propped up by the banks' bad behavior. This was a tangible part of the predatory lending scam - people trying to buy houses way beyond their means, which the banks were only too willing to sell on very disadvantageous terms.

270 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:35:22am

Throughout his term, President Obama has avoided leading on the issue of fiscal responsibility. He walked away from his own commission, the one led by former Sen. Alan Simpson (R-Wyo.) and former White House Chief of Staff Erskine Bowles, when he found its report filled with inconvenient choices.
Now in a week when leadership is needed to push this critical committee to do something big and bring the nation’s fiscal house back into order, the president once again disappears. It causes one to wonder, why?

[Link: thehill.com...]

271 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:36:11am

re: #267 publicityStunted

If everyone decided to rock it out "Little House on the Prairie" style? We'd be screwed beyond measure.

I design kitchens for a living. About 5% of the kitchens need to be remodeled.

The 95% of those who order, even though they don't need it, support thousands of jobs.

272 Gus  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:37:43am

Welcome to the Rush Limbaugh radio show.

273 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:38:24am

re: #269 thedopefishlives

While I'm not one to absolve the banking industry of any responsibility for the current state of affairs, there is something to be said for the proliferation of the entitlement mentality among the middle class. Everyone seems to think they have earned the right to this, that, or the other thing. Combined with a complete lack of understanding of how credit works, it makes for an unstable spending pattern, propped up by the banks' bad behavior. This was a tangible part of the predatory lending scam - people trying to buy houses way beyond their means, which the banks were only too willing to sell on very disadvantageous terms.

the middle class sees massive govt entitlements beneath them and massive accumulation of wealth above them...mostly at their expense....one of these days they're gonna blow

274 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:38:29am

re: #215 Killgore Trout

Wait. This is his defense?

At Pimentel's arraignment, his lawyer Joseph Zablocki said his client's behavior leading up to the arrest was not that of a conspirator trying to conceal some violent scheme. Zablocki said Pimentel was public about his activities and was not trying to hide anything.

So planning to become a terrorist bomber is OK as long as you don't hide it?

I must need coffee.

275 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:39:01am

re: #263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Imagine the economy if people decided to live simply.

Talk about an Armageddon.

Agreed. Although I live my life as a non-consumer I don't really advocate that everybody do it. The economic repercussions would be huge.

276 Gus  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:39:45am

re: #263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Imagine the economy if people decided to live simply.

Talk about an Armageddon.

Yeah. Like without air conditioning, cell phones and refrigerators.

//

277 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:40:53am

re: #276 Gus 802

What in the hell are you talking about?

278 allegro  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:43:11am

re: #277 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What in the hell are you talking about?

You haven't been paying attention? According to our buddies on the right, there are no really poor people in the U.S. Proof is that so many of them have air conditioning, refrigerators, and cell phones.

279 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:43:20am

re: #272 Gus 802

Welcome to the Rush Limbaugh radio show.

Actually, read this article from March's Rolling Stone. Jones apparently believes Limbaugh is part of the Borg State or whatever. The guy is truly unhinged. I've never listened to him or gone to his website, because that level of toxic crazy is bad for one's health, IMHO. It's why I've also never perused Stormfront or any other nazi sites. Just don't wanna roll in sewage.

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

I'm no fan of Rush Limbaugh or any of the rest of them...just sayin.

280 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:43:48am

Well I just found out that I'm getting the week between Christmas and New Years' off.

The bad news: unpaid leave.

Maybe I'll go visit my mom in LA, if she'll pay for my ticket.

281 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:44:37am

re: #278 allegro

You haven't been paying attention? According to our buddies on the right, there are no really poor people in the U.S. Proof is that so many of them have air conditioning, refrigerators, and cell phones.

Huh. I had no idea. See, I don't roll in sewage.

282 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:44:48am

re: #274 funky chicken

That's almost as odd a defense strategy as the lawyer for Sandusky allowing his client to go on Costas.

283 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:45:45am

re: #282 lawhawk

That's almost as odd a defense strategy as the lawyer for Sandusky allowing his client to go on Costas.

I'm almost expecting them to trot out the tired old "sovereign citizen" favorite legal argument: "Your courtroom flag has tassels on it, therefore, you have no jurisdiction."

284 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:45:52am

re: #271 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Which is why the weak housing market is dragging everything else down to its level.

285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:46:57am

re: #278 allegro

You haven't been paying attention? According to our buddies on the right, there are no really poor people in the U.S. Proof is that so many of them have air conditioning, refrigerators, and cell phones.

Oh. I hear that too. You forgot "flat screens".

I don't get too huffy about those assertions. It's a crass way of saying that while being poor in America sucks, it is remarkably better than being poor in Bangladesh.

286 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:47:18am

re: #281 funky chicken

Huh. I had no idea. See, I don't roll in sewage.

just another meme to cram down someone's throat

287 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:47:40am

re: #280 Alouette

Maybe I'll go visit my mom in LA, if she'll pay for my ticket.

That L.A. or LA?

288 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:48:02am

People listen to this?

Jones doesn't stop there. The Gates Foundation? "Obviously a eugenics operation." The latest WikiLeaks dump? "All the hallmarks of an intelligence disinfo campaign." While urging his audience to wake up and smell the police state, Jones can sound thoughtful and intellectual, quick to quote Nietzsche, Plato, de Tocqueville, Gibbon and Huxley. Mostly, though, he defaults into machine-gun bursts of rage that crescendo with an adolescent snarl — Holden Caulfield playing Paul Revere.

"Government-lab-produced airborne Ebola?" Jones thunders. "It's comin' your way! Enjoy it, yuppies!"

Read more: [Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Gates Foundation provides vaccinations and malaria treatment in Africa and South America. Eugenics? Keeping brown kids alive?

OK, off for coffee.

289 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:48:31am

re: #287 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That L.A. or LA?

Los Angeles, California.

290 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:49:14am

re: #110 Ojoe

Calling Hillary. Wheee !

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Wishful thinking. Won't happen, unless you want Whitewater, Monica, and Paula Jones in the news again.

291 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:49:48am

re: #289 Alouette

Stupid Louisiana. Always confusing me.

292 darthstar  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:49:56am

re: #283 thedopefishlives

Is that what those tassels mean? Damn! I wish I'd known that 37 months ago.../

293 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:50:09am

re: #288 funky chicken

People listen to this?

Read more: [Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Yeah, people listen to this, and more to the point, they believe it. Alex Jones is a hero to 9/11 Twoofy Twoof. He's probably one of the leading proponents of 9/11 conspiracy theory (and that should tell you plenty about just how prominent it is, namely, not at all).

294 darthstar  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:50:59am

re: #286 albusteve

just another meme to cram down someone's throat

Oral fixations! How do they work?

295 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:51:13am

re: #239 Obdicut

I agree there'd be more utility in getting that tax revenue from people more able to afford it, but government spending does not get dumped into a black hole and vanish from the economy. Most US government spending goes right back into the economy. So while it's not as good for the economy as deficit spending or tax money sourced from those with lots of disposable income, it's important to remember that government spending is domestic spending.

That's why austerity measures are so fucking idiotic, and the attempt to slash the budget in the middle of a recession is, and always has been, absolutely counter to all common sense and uncommon sense.

quoted for truth

one of the biggest problems we have with public policy these days is the necessity of reiterating statements of fact like the above in a constant rearguard action against the campaign of lies, for example the notion that government spending disappears into someplace else other than mostly into the pockets of other americans, and that we can cut our way back to prosperity

296 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:52:10am

re: #294 darthstar

Oral fixations! How do they work?

you open your mouth and the bullshit just flies out, effortlessly

297 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:53:18am

re: #290 Lidane

Wishful thinking. Won't happen, unless you want Whitewater, Monica, and Paula Jones in the news again.

then who's gonna replace BO when he walks off?

298 iossarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:56:18am

re: #290 Lidane

Wishful thinking. Won't happen, unless you want Whitewater, Monica, and Paula Jones in the news again.

That is pure desperation from the WSJ.

I reckon Obama beats Romney (albeit narrowly), mainly due to the Republican screw-up in Ohio.

He annihilates any of the other jokers currently participating in GOP debates.

299 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:56:34am

re: #288 funky chicken

People listen to this?

Two words: Loose Change.

Alex Jones was an executive producer on that.

300 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:56:36am

Depleted Texas lakes expose ghost towns, graves

getting thirsty yet?

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

301 darthstar  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:56:42am

Just following orders...

Posted by one of my wingnut friends on fb...of course, she thought this was just awesome!

302 Interesting Times  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:56:54am

re: #271 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

If everyone decided to rock it out "Little House on the Prairie" style? We'd be screwed beyond measure.

We already are.

Note: I'm not actually advocating a return to 19th-century lifestyles. I'm advocating an end to this idiotic setup where crap we don't need is manufactured by near-slave-labor in conditions that bugger up the very air we breathe.

Whoever said that the Western world merely "outsourced" its pollution is right. But the outsourced consequences won't stay that way for long.

303 iossarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:57:27am

re: #300 albusteve

Depleted Texas lakes expose ghost towns, graves

getting thirsty yet?

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Global warming is not real. GLOBAL WARMING IS NOT REAL!

*fingers in ears*

304 darthstar  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:57:50am

re: #300 albusteve

Depleted Texas lakes expose ghost towns, graves

getting thirsty yet?

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I don't think you're really praying for rain. It doesn't work if everyone doesn't do it.

305 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:58:27am

re: #297 albusteve

Why would he walk off? He's not LBJ facing certain doom because of Vietnam, for fuck's sake.

306 iossarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 7:59:46am

re: #305 Lidane

Why would he walk off? He's not LBJ facing certain doom because of Vietnam, for fuck's sake.

Don't disrupt the right-wing unreality field.

307 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:00:08am

re: #305 Lidane

Why would he walk off? He's not LBJ facing certain doom because of Vietnam, for fuck's sake.

maybe he doesn't like us anymore...but then the travel perks are awsome

308 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:00:46am

re: #306 iossarian

Don't disrupt the right-wing unreality field.

I'm wingless

309 iossarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:01:40am

re: #308 albusteve

I'm wingless

Haha, I know, I wasn't referring to you specifically, more the WSJ nonsense.

310 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:01:46am

re: #298 iossarian

That is pure desperation from the WSJ.

And from editorial writers desperate for relevance again. A pollster for Carter and one for Clinton? Try finding pollsters who've run a campaign in the internet age, thanks.

I reckon Obama beats Romney (albeit narrowly), mainly due to the Republican screw-up in Ohio.

I could see that. At this point, I think it's the most likely outcome.

He annihilates any of the other jokers currently participating in GOP debates.

But of course he's doomed and Hillary now has to take over. ROFL.

311 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:02:00am

re: #305 Lidane

Why would he walk off? He's not LBJ facing certain doom because of Vietnam, for fuck's sake.

Wingnut fantasy land.

312 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:03:08am

re: #309 iossarian

Haha, I know, I wasn't referring to you specifically, more the WSJ nonsense.

check out the Chris Mathews gig regarding BO up on Drudge...not nice

313 darthstar  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:03:16am

re: #297 albusteve

then who's gonna replace BO when he walks off?

in 2017...probably Elizabeth Warren.

314 iossarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:06:16am

re: #312 albusteve

check out the Chris Mathews gig regarding BO up on Drudge...not nice

I'll take your word for it - I'm too hungover for shitty web design this morning.

315 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:07:08am

Gingrich Declares Man Made 9% Employment A Myth

orders OWS protesters to take a bath, get a job, repeal gravity, and pay off his account at Tiffany's

316 makeitstop  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:08:07am

re: #310 Lidane

And from editorial writers desperate for relevance again. A pollster for Carter and one for Clinton? Try finding pollsters who've run a campaign in the internet age, thanks.

I could see that. At this point, I think it's the most likely outcome.

But of course he's doomed and Hillary now has to take over. ROFL.

Pollster concern trolling. Gotta love it.

(Actually, you don't. Schoen and Caddell are about as irrelevant as you can get, but they haven't gotten the memo.)

317 Flounder  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:09:04am

Snow is coming I can't wait!
[Link: www.timesunion.com...]

318 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:09:12am

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand’s move to end insider trading by members of Congress is so full of loopholes it would do almost nothing to end the lucrative practice among lawmakers and their families, experts say.
It might not even deter Gillibrand’s husband, Jonathan, who regularly trades stocks and whose risky trades seem to have benefited from the downturn in the housing market.
Gillibrand’s proposed STOCK Act does not specifically bar lawmakers and their employees from sharing information with their spouses and family members — meaning Gillibrand could pass on tips that her husband could use in trades.

congress....best job in the world

Read more: [Link: www.nypost.com...]

Read more: [Link: www.nypost.com...]

319 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:10:18am

re: #298 iossarian

That is pure desperation from the WSJ.

I reckon Obama beats Romney (albeit narrowly), mainly due to the Republican screw-up in Ohio.

He annihilates any of the other jokers currently participating in GOP debates.

i think obama is not gonna run against romney. he's gonna run against a congress that refuses to raise income taxes on millionaires and hang them around romney's neck

320 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:11:26am

re: #315 engineer dog

Gingrich Declares Man Made 9% Employment A Myth

orders OWS protesters to take a bath, get a job, repeal gravity, and pay off his account at Tiffany's

I may not agree with him often, but George Will has Newt pegged:

George Will: Newt Gingrich a 'rental politician ... not a historian'

321 makeitstop  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:12:42am

re: #319 engineer dog

i think obama is not gonna run against romney. he's gonna run against a congress that refuses to raise income taxes on millionaires and hang them around romney's neck

That'll work, too.

322 iossarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:14:00am

re: #319 engineer dog

i think obama is not gonna run against romney. he's gonna run against a congress that refuses to raise income taxes on millionaires and hang them around romney's neck

I think he can make hay out of Romney's past unreliability (if he wins the nomination, he'll presumably try to move back to the middle, but he'll be double-reversing himself at that point).

But yes, I think there's even more to be made out of the GOP's general know-and-do-nothingness, along with the massively unpopular anti-union moves in the Midwest.

323 Gus  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:14:38am

Yes. That's right Democrats and liberal-independents. Listen to Chris Matthews. The original war mongering cruise missile "liberal" that used to pee in his pants over his support of George W. Bush and the Iraq War. Before he decided to switch markets. Listen to him and abandon Obama. Things will be so much better for advancing anything remotely similar to a progressive agenda under a Republican president.

324 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:14:40am

re: #319 engineer dog

i think obama is not gonna run against romney. he's gonna run against a congress that refuses to raise income taxes on millionaires and hang them around romney's neck

That and he's going to repeatedly point out the similarities between his health care law and Romney's, which will irk the GOP base.

325 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:16:02am

re: #312 albusteve

It's Tweety being Tweety. Whatever crawled up his ass and died this week, he'll get over it.

326 Targetpractice  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:16:51am

re: #319 engineer dog

i think obama is not gonna run against romney. he's gonna run against a congress that refuses to raise income taxes on millionaires and hang them around romney's neck

Really, all Obama has to do in order to run against Romney is just sit back and watch Romney-12 run against Romney-08, tossing a few "inconvenient facts" into the mix whenever things die down.

327 Gus  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:17:24am

Ugh.

328 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:19:31am

re: #325 Lidane

It's Tweety being Tweety. Whatever crawled up his ass and died this week, he'll get over it.

just food for thought...I don't give a rats ass if BO wins another term

329 Targetpractice  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:27:15am

I'm beginning to wonder if the GOP leadership has already resigned themselves to losing the presidency and are instead looking to focus on the Congressional runs in the hope of taking the Senate and further increasing their hold over the House.

330 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:29:19am

re: #312 albusteve

check out the Chris Mathews gig regarding BO up on Drudge...not nice

331 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:29:27am

re: #328 albusteve

just food for thought...I don't give a rats ass if BO wins another term

OK, I'll put that down for a 'yes' vote. Who do you want for VP?

332 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:30:18am

re: #229 Rightwingconspirator

The GOP has 100% of the obstructionism, but I do have serious reservations about policies on the economy early in the Obama admin.

Such as the far too small stimulus package?

333 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:30:31am

re: #329 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I'm beginning to wonder if the GOP leadership has already resigned themselves to losing the presidency and are instead looking to focus on the Congressional runs in the hope of taking the Senate and further increasing their hold over the House.

Given the absolutely shitty slate of candidates they've got running for the nomination, that would be a wise move. When the best they've got is Mitt Romney, there's not much hope on the presidential front.

334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:31:13am

re: #323 Gus 802

Thanks for reminding me. I have seen this rolling around the internets for a few days but haven't been able to listen to the audio.

There was a time when a child would look at a parent and say "When I grow up, I want to be President" and the parent would look on with love and hope and admiration for the child.

Now? If my kid said that? I'd wash his mouth out with soap, send him to bed without any supper, and make him write on a chalkboard "Being the President would suck; I would never want that job" a thousand times.

335 BishopX  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:31:37am

re: #333 Lidane


I don't think you can make big gains in a presidential election cycle without a strong presidential candidate. The coat-tail effect is too strong.

336 Targetpractice  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:32:32am

re: #333 Lidane

Given the absolutely shitty slate of candidates they've got running for the nomination, that would be a wise move. When the best they've got is Mitt Romney, there's not much hope on the presidential front.

Problem is that, unless they convince themselves to run anybody but Romney, they run the risk of pissing off the base enough that they stay home, which will hurt them across the board.

337 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:33:21am

re: #331 Decatur Deb

OK, I'll put that down for a 'yes' vote. Who do you want for VP?

I'd like to give it a try, but my calls are unreturned

338 erik_t  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:33:37am

re: #336 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

There isn't a candidate left to the GOP that won't alienate a large portion of their usual voters.

339 iossarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:33:53am

re: #329 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I'm beginning to wonder if the GOP leadership has already resigned themselves to losing the presidency and are instead looking to focus on the Congressional runs in the hope of taking the Senate and further increasing their hold over the House.

I think that's what's giving the presidential nomination race its craptastic field, for sure.

Not so clear whether there's a connection to a congressional strategy. I think the GOP is starting to lose its cohesiveness a bit, although maybe that's wishful thinking on my part. I do think they need to find a way out of the "zero taxes today tomorrow and forever" nuttiness by the time the elections roll around.

340 Gus  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:36:31am

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks for reminding me. I have seen this rolling around the internets for a few days but haven't been able to listen to the audio.

There was a time when a child would look at a parent and say "When I grow up, I want to be President" and the parent would look on with love and hope and admiration for the child.

Now? If my kid said that? I'd wash his mouth out with soap, send him to bed without any supper, and make him write on a chalkboard "Being the President would suck; I would never want that job" a thousand times.

Momma don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys presidents...

//

341 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:36:43am

St Paul's protest: 'Defecation and drugs' at Occupy camp

Local business takings had fallen by up to 35%, the documents claimed.
...
Police received complaints from the cathedral about "members of the camp continually urinating through the fence of the Chapter House and the Cathedral itself", Mr Zuber said.

On one occasion "a member of the camp had urinated through the window of the Crypt Restaurant".

342 Gus  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:36:59am

Drink!

343 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:38:01am

re: #338 erik_t

There isn't a candidate left to the GOP that won't alienate a large portion of their usual voters.

The GOP does have one advantage. A giant motivation to get rid of the other guy. That, IMO, is more important than one candidate alienating a voter.

344 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:38:20am

If someone describes themselves as an 'herbsman', what do you figure the chances are that they grow dill and rosemary, and what are the chances that they grow weed?

345 erik_t  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:39:18am

re: #343 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sure, but let's be serious. Americans don't vote en masse, and national elections are won and lost on the margins. If you have a candidate that alienates (seriously alienates) 5% more of your usual bloc than usual, that is a massive disadvantage.

346 iossarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:40:50am

re: #344 Obdicut

If someone describes themselves as an 'herbsman', what do you figure the chances are that they grow dill and rosemary, and what are the chances that they grow weed?

Catnip.

347 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:42:31am

How Egypt Justifies Its Brutal Crackdown: Occupy Wall Street

Two people were killed in Cairo and Alexandria this weekend as Egyptian activists took the streets to protest the military's attempts to maintain its grip on power. And guess how the state is justifying its deadly crackdown.

"We saw the firm stance the US took against OWS people & the German govt against green protesters to secure the state," an Egyptian state television anchor said yesterday (as translated by the indispensable Sultan Sooud al Qassemi; bold ours).

348 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:43:22am

So, the supercommittee is ready to implode, setting up a situation where so-called automatic cuts are to take effect.

Yet, you've got folks like McCain and Graham ready to introduce legislation that would restore the military cuts. The debt reduction package was supposed to impose across the board cuts, including to the military if the supercommittee fails to take action exceeding the $1+ trillion in cuts in the automatic plan.

Once again, we've got a high profile way that Congress has completely abdicated on fiscal responsibility - they can simply attempt to legislate away whatever fiscal responsibility package previously enacted.

So much for austerity when you start carving out exemption after exemption from the very cuts that you previously agreed upon. And now everyone will play politics with different introduced legislation that exempts this or that program from the mandatory cuts (and some of those cuts are likely to be restored down the road) but even if they aren't restored, they're pandering to their pet audiences.

It's so maddening and infuriating to see that no one in DC - but especially the GOP - gets fiscal responsibility 101.

The GOP is wholly in the thrall of Norquist, and no one seems capable of standing up to him to say that some tax hikes are critical to restoring fiscal responsibility. But from a purely political tactic, the temporary cuts were a tremendous boost to the GOP - they put any consideration of a restoration of the former rates as a hike and it's their wedge to force still lower spending on programs they deem unfit for federal funding, even though their utility is well known or essential.

349 Targetpractice  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:43:47am

re: #343 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The GOP does have one advantage. A giant motivation to get rid of the other guy. That, IMO, is more important than one candidate alienating a voter.

Not really, see also: '96, '04. When your message is simply one of being against the incumbent, rather than for your own candidate, then voters tend to tune out. Worse, the base views Romney and Obama as having little difference between them, so running him as the nominee will either require him to keep running far to the right or see mass defections by the base.

350 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:44:09am

re: #345 erik_t

I was being serious. I think the motivation to vote against someone is generally stronger than the motivation to vote for someone.

I think the President has a problem, but he and his team are world class campaigners.

351 Targetpractice  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:45:12am

re: #347 Lidane

How Egypt Justifies Its Brutal Crackdown: Occupy Wall Street

It's standard procedure!

///

352 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:46:07am

re: #347 Lidane

There's using an apple to compare to napalm.

353 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:46:20am

re: #348 lawhawk

So, the supercommittee is ready to implode, setting up a situation where so-called automatic cuts are to take effect.

Yet, you've got folks like McCain and Graham ready to introduce legislation that would restore the military cuts. The debt reduction package was supposed to impose across the board cuts, including to the military if the supercommittee fails to take action exceeding the $1+ trillion in cuts in the automatic plan.

And Mitt Romney is already out there bleating about those automatic cuts:

Romney Calls On Obama To Undo Triggered Military Cuts, Reduce Funding To Medicaid

354 Gus  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:46:48am

@BloombergNews Bloomberg News
U.S. stocks tumble amid supercommittee likely failure | [Link: t.co...]

We should thank the two-party system at play here. The Republican Party and the Tea Party.

355 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:47:09am

re: #348 lawhawk

I really don't get how Norquist even became powerful. He's a boring dude who mouths pablum of the same sort that every other Randian economic type does. He lies a lot. How on earth did he get this much power?

The GOP is basically suspended between Norquist, Limbaugh, and the various nutjob Religious Right leaders.

356 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:47:41am

re: #352 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm not the one making the comparison. Egyptian state TV offered it as a justification of the latest crackdowns in Tahrir Square.

357 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:48:02am

re: #299 Lidane

Two words: Loose Change.

Alex Jones was an executive producer on that.

Yeah, I'd heard of that. I'm just shocked by the apparent perennial appeal of that kind of crap. Eventually it becomes a self-refuting argument, doesn't it?

358 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:48:49am

Congress May Try Blocking Cuts if Debt Panel FailsNo cuts, no deficit reduction, no raised revenue, no fixes, no improvements. It was all just a giant waste of time.

359 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:49:14am

re: #356 Lidane

Oh, I was referring to them, not you.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

360 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:49:26am

re: #357 funky chicken

Yeah, I'd heard of that. I'm just shocked by the apparent perennial appeal of that kind of crap. Eventually it becomes a self-refuting argument, doesn't it?

You would think so, but the fact that Alex Jones still has a career suggests otherwise.

361 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:49:38am

Dow --321 -2.72%

362 Targetpractice  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:50:40am

re: #348 lawhawk

The supercommittee was a joke from the moment it was announced, and only became more of one when members like Kyl and outsiders like Boehner were openly declaring what would and wouldn't be acceptable in the final draft. And even last week, when we got the dueling proposals, McCain was heard to be talking about ways to get around the automatic cuts to the military.

So yeah, stocks are gonna fall immediately, followed by an even sharper fall when we get downgraded again due to an inability by the GOP to take our debt seriously, and the recovery is likely to stall or even crash entirely. The question remaining is how the GOP expects to profit from all this.

363 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:51:00am

re: #355 Obdicut

Million dollar question. He put forth a policy perspective that GOPers picked up on - and it resonates with voters. After all, who likes to pay taxes? So any policy that pushes taxes to lower levels has a built in constituency. It's far harder to defend programs, which is the position Democrats find themselves in.

Something like the NOAA shouldn't be fighting for its life when its mission includes weather forecasting - technologies that can save lives, protect billions upon billions in crops and property annually. A meager investment goes a long way (3 billion for a new satellite for example could save thousands of lives by giving scientists the tools/measurements necessary to predict the path of a hurricane thereby saving thousands of lives and reducing property damage by billions). And that's just one example. There are plenty of others out there.

364 iossarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:51:12am

Same old GOP - back out of any deal you ever make.

Fundamentally untrustworthy.

365 Lidane  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:51:37am

re: #362 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

The question remaining is how the GOP expects to profit from all this.

The answer to that is obvious. They expect Obama to lose in 2012 because of their obstructionism.

366 Gus  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:52:02am

Fox News!

Drink!

367 albusteve  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:52:14am

re: #358 Killgore Trout

Congress May Try Blocking Cuts if Debt Panel FailsNo cuts, no deficit reduction, no raised revenue, no fixes, no improvements. It was all just a giant waste of time.

yup....more to follow, stay tuned

368 Targetpractice  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:52:18am

re: #358 Killgore Trout

Congress May Try Blocking Cuts if Debt Panel FailsNo cuts, no deficit reduction, no raised revenue, no fixes, no improvements. It was all just a giant waste of time.

"May Try," which is basically saying that the GOP now holds control over which automatic cuts will go through and which won't. Cue the hostage negotiations yet again.

369 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:52:32am

re: #358 Killgore Trout

Which is why the markets are in free fall again, and further credit drops are possible.

No one in Congress gets it - especially among the GOP set. They think that this is all to their benefit in future elections, but I think they've found themselves a rabbit hole and can't see all the negative consequences that are just around the corner.

370 iossarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:53:33am

re: #369 lawhawk

No one in Congress gets it - especially among the GOP set.

I think the Democrats understand the situation very well, actually.

They signed on to a deal, which the GOP is now backing out of.

You can hang this one entirely on the Republicans.

371 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 8:53:41am

re: #369 lawhawk

Which is why the markets are in free fall again, and further credit drops are possible.

No one in Congress gets it - especially among the GOP set. They think that this is all to their benefit in future elections, but I think they've found themselves a rabbit hole and can't see all the negative consequences that are just around the corner.

Agreed.

372 Targetpractice  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:05:44am

The thread has expired. Note the time in the log.

373 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:07:45am

re: #372 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

The thread has expired. Note the time in the log.

The thread is wearing a red shirt.

374 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:08:11am

re: #363 lawhawk

Million dollar question. He put forth a policy perspective that GOPers picked up on - and it resonates with voters.

But it doesn't, really. Voters overwhelmingly support higher taxes on the wealthy.

After all, who likes to pay taxes? So any policy that pushes taxes to lower levels has a built in constituency. It's far harder to defend programs, which is the position Democrats find themselves in.

That part is true. Most people can't do the calculation of the benefit they get from those government programs very easily.

Something like the NOAA shouldn't be fighting for its life when its mission includes weather forecasting - technologies that can save lives, protect billions upon billions in crops and property annually. A meager investment goes a long way (3 billion for a new satellite for example could save thousands of lives by giving scientists the tools/measurements necessary to predict the path of a hurricane thereby saving thousands of lives and reducing property damage by billions). And that's just one example. There are plenty of others out there.

Yep. But there's an unending stream of propaganda from FOX and the American Enterprise Institute and the Wall Street Journal and all the other wingnut publications convincing people government spending is just burning money in an open pit while getting nothing from it. Maybe there's nothing special about Norquist, he just happens to be saying what the propagandists are.

375 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:13:47am

Is there a transcript available from the November 19th GOP Presidential candidate "Thanksgiving Family Forum"? I couldn't possibly watch the whole thing, but some excerpts would be priceless.

376 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:21:47am

re: #375 wrenchwench

I can't find one, which is odd.

377 allegro  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:23:39am

re: #376 Obdicut

I can't find one, which is odd.

Apparently no one had the fortitude to sit through it to transcribe it.

378 Targetpractice  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:24:42am

re: #377 allegro

Apparently no one had the fortitude to sit through it to transcribe it.

5 minutes is enough to induce projectile vomiting.

379 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:24:58am

Headline of the day: Have they gone nuts in Washington?

380 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:26:44am
Who can tell how a volatile mixture of political failure in Europe and in the U.S. will play out in coming weeks? The truth is nobody knows for sure.

That's why this failure of the super committee represents a reckless, irresponsible gamble by our "leaders" in Washington. It's difficult to remember a Congress that has put the nation so much at risk in the service of ideology and to hold onto office. Partisans on both sides are grievously failing the country.

381 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:31:33am

re: #376 Obdicut

I can't find one, which is odd.

re: #377 allegro

Apparently no one had the fortitude to sit through it to transcribe it.

It would be a service to humanity were someone to undertake that task.

382 makeitstop  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:31:44am

re: #380 Killgore Trout

Partisans on both sides are grievously failing the country.

This is why David Gergen is less than worthless.

Tomorrow's headline: 'Magical Balance Fairy Dies Of Exhaustion'

383 erik_t  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:31:55am

re: #380 Killgore Trout

CNN used Magical Balance Fairy!

It's not very effective.

384 Targetpractice  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:37:22am

re: #380 Killgore Trout

"Partisans on both sides"? Is Pelosi quoted somewhere stating that the committee shouldn't consider tax cuts, like there was from Boehner about tax increases? Or Dem committee members stating that if cuts to Medicare or Social Security were in the final proposal, they'd resign from the committee?

385 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 9:38:14am

re: #381 wrenchwench

It would be a service to humanity were someone to undertake that task.

I think someone from Romney's campaign should do it. He has the most to gain from it.

386 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:07:35am

re: #264 Obdicut

But that money, then, didn't go anywhere; it never existed.

Er... twofold: Yes, some money did exist and went to the banks for essentially nothing. But that money was generated through the county issuing bonds, i.e. going into debt. To finance going further into debt. To pay off more and more debt. Until the bills couldn't get paid anymore. Now Jefferson County is in credit freeze.

Now, the horrible thing is that we cannot be sure whether the creditor, JP Morgan, is expecting the revenue from the bills or will get by with just a haircut through bankruptcy proceedings. If these municipalities defaulting will lead to the banks needing more bailouts, it will be deep trouble.

387 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:08:39am

re: #264 Obdicut

What are you talking about? There was actual construction, salaries did actually get paid. Are you just talking about the debt from the CDO stuff itself? The financing of the debt?

Yeah, the bogus financing. The stuff the banks knew was just kicking the can down the road, growing debt for the sake of their profit and the county could never realistically pay back.

Wall Street was happy to help. First, it employed the same trick it used to fuel the housing crisis: It switched the county from a fixed rate on the bonds it had issued to finance the sewer deal to an adjustable rate. The refinancing meant lower interest payments for a couple of years — followed by the risk of even larger payments down the road. The move enabled county commissioners to postpone the problem for an election season or two, kicking it to a group of future commissioners who would inevitably have to pay the real freight.

But then Wall Street got really creative. Having switched the county to a variable interest rate, it offered commissioners a crazy deal: For an extra fee, the banks said, we'll allow you to keep paying a fixed rate on your debt to us. In return, we'll give you a variable amount each month that you can use to pay off all that variable-rate interest you owe to bondholders.

In financial terms, this is known as a synthetic rate swap — the spidery creature you might have read about playing a role in bringing down places like Greece and Milan. On paper, it made sense: The county got the stability of a fixed rate, while paying Wall Street to assume the risk of the variable rates on its bonds. That's the synthetic part. The trouble lies in the rate swap. The deal only works if the two variable rates — the one you get from the bank, and the one you owe to bondholders — actually match. It's like gambling on the weather. If your bondholders are expecting you to pay an interest rate based on the average temperature in Alabama, you don't do a rate swap with a bank that gives you back a rate pegged to the temperature in Nome, Alaska.

Not unless you're a fucking moron. Or your banker is JP Morgan.

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

388 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:09:17am

re: #387 000G

For Jefferson County, the deal blew up in early 2008, when a dizzying array of penalties and other fine-print poison worked into the swap contracts started to kick in. The trouble began with the housing crash, which took down the insurance companies that had underwritten the county's bonds. That rendered the county's insurance worthless, triggering clauses in its swap contracts that required it to pay off more than $800 million of its debt in only four years, rather than 40. That, in turn, scared off private lenders, who were no longer ­interested in bidding on the county's bonds. The banks were forced to make up the difference — a service for which they charged enormous penalties. It was as if the county had missed a payment on its credit card and woke up the next morning to find its annual percentage rate jacked up to a million percent. Between 2008 and 2009, the annual payment on Jefferson County's debt jumped from $53 million to a whopping $636 million.

It gets worse. Remember the swap deal that Jefferson County did with JP Morgan, how the variable rates it got from the bank were supposed to match those it owed its bondholders? Well, they didn't. Most of the payments the county was receiving from JP Morgan were based on one set of interest rates (the London Interbank Exchange Rate), while the payments it owed to its bondholders followed a different set of rates (a municipal-bond index). Jefferson County was suddenly getting far less from JP Morgan, and owing tons more to bondholders. In other words, the bank and Bill Blount made tens of millions of dollars selling deals to local politicians that were not only completely defective, but blew the entire county to smithereens.

And here's the kicker. Last year, when Jefferson County, staggered by the weight of its penalties, was unable to make its swap payments to JP Morgan, the bank canceled the deal. That triggered one-time "termination fees" of — yes, you read this right — $647 million. That was money the county would owe no matter what happened with the rest of its debt, even if bondholders decided to forgive and forget every dime the county had borrowed. It was like the herpes simplex of loans — debt that does not go away, ever, for as long as you live. On a sewer project that was originally supposed to cost $250 million, the county now owed a total of $1.28 billion just in interest and fees on the debt. Imagine paying $250,000 a year on a car you purchased for $50,000, and that's roughly where Jefferson County stood at the end of last year.

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

389 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:14:29am

re: #386 000G

Er... twofold: Yes, some money did exist and went to the banks for essentially nothing. But that money was generated through the county issuing bonds, i.e. going into debt. To finance going further into debt. To pay off more and more debt. Until the bills couldn't get paid anymore. Now Jefferson County is in credit freeze.

Right. Some money did exist and went to banks-- it didn't go into a black hole.

390 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:16:27am

re: #387 000G

Yeah, the bogus financing. The stuff the banks knew was just kicking the can down the road, growing debt for the sake of their profit and the county could never realistically pay back.

Thanks, I'm perfectly aware of the story. I have no idea why you find it necessary to link to it.

My point is that government spending doesn't vanish into thin air. You're making the point that government can fuck up and acquire debt-- they can, sure. That has nothing to do with my point. Any spending that occurs still actually happens, the money actually still goes places. It doesn't just get burned.

Do you understand?

391 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:17:50am

re: #262 Killgore Trout

Probably not, I don't think anything is going to change because people aren't going to change. They want easy credit so they can buy crap from big companies that they don't need. Even if the government enacts some sort of fix to people still want to over-consume. Banks and large corporations are more than happy to help us do that.

I don't think it's a consumption problem. At least not one of private consumers who more and more slide into debt and out of the middle class into poverty. The other side of the coin is much more important, because all the more powerful:

With the top 10 U.S. banks holding 77 percent of the industry’s domestic assets, compared with 55 percent in 2002, too-big-to-fail is an even bigger worry today.

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

392 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:18:34am

re: #389 Obdicut

Right. Some money did exist and went to banks-- it didn't go into a black hole.

The incredible amount of debt that was created to create the money is the black hole.
Do you understand?

393 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:21:26am

re: #390 Obdicut

Thanks, I'm perfectly aware of the story. I have no idea why you find it necessary to link to it.

My point is that government spending doesn't vanish into thin air. You're making the point that government can fuck up and acquire debt-- they can, sure. That has nothing to do with my point. Any spending that occurs still actually happens, the money actually still goes places. It doesn't just get burned.

The point is not so much government debt but debt to the point of sovereign default. Which is indeed "spending into thin air", once the debt restructuring happens and everybody's savings suddenly take hair cuts.

Do you understand?

394 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:24:36am

re: #392 000G

The incredible amount of debt that was created to create the money is the black hole.
Do you understand?

Sure. But that has nothing to do with what I was talking about, so why are you talking about it?

I was talking about government spending. You're talk about debt.

395 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:25:29am

re: #393 000G

Um, so you really are saying government spending can be spending into a black hole because government can 'spend' (actually, borrow) so much money they might default and then everything goes south?

Is that your actual point?

396 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:26:00am

re: #394 Obdicut

I was talking about government spending. You're talk about debt.

How do you think government pays for spending above and beyond revenue generated through taxes?

397 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:27:39am

re: #396 000G

How do you think government pays for spending above and beyond revenue generated through taxes?

Through selling bonds.

Dude. You're being very, very weird. My point is that when the government spends money, the money doesn't vanish. That money simply vanishes when spent is something that's propagandized a lot by those on the right wing.

You, apparently, want to talk about something entirely different. And that's cool. But it doesn't have anything to do with what I was talking about.

398 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:29:07am

re: #397 Obdicut

Through selling bonds.

Do you think that there is a link between sovereign debt and inflation or not?

399 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:33:37am

re: #398 000G

Do you think that there is a link between sovereign debt and inflation or not?

You really, really appear to want to have an entirely different conversation. Again, that's fine, but why are you simply bypassing the point that I'm making?

There's a complex relationship between sovereign debt and inflation, mainly because sovereign debt tends to mean that money is getting spent, which tends to kick up inflation.

And how does this relate to government spending not simply meaning that dollars are atomized? Are you trying to say that spending (or, rather, borrowing) devalues money through inflation and therefore it really is atomizing the money, or something?

Would it be problematic for you to just actually make your argument instead of me having to guess at it through a series of posts?

400 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:34:02am

re: #395 Obdicut

Um, so you really are saying government spending can be spending into a black hole because government can 'spend' (actually, borrow) so much money they might default and then everything goes south?

Is that your actual point?

If government spends insane amounts of money that require insane amounts of debt to finance the deficit, and when taking on these insane amounts of debt are made possible, then yes, it's just a matter of time until the black hole opens up, the accounting tricks get exposed and property overall takes giant hits.

401 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:35:11am

re: #400 000G

But that is a specialized situation, and not one that relates to the simple statement:

Government spending does not leave the economy.

It is fine if you want to make a larger point, but it in no way invalidates my point, nor does it really have anything to do with my point.

402 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:37:21am

re: #399 Obdicut

There's a complex relationship between sovereign debt and inflation, mainly because sovereign debt tends to mean that money is getting spent, which tends to kick up inflation.

Why do you think it "kicks up" inflation?

And how does this relate to government spending not simply meaning that dollars are atomized? Are you trying to say that spending (or, rather, borrowing) devalues money through inflation and therefore it really is atomizing the money, or something?

I have no idea what you mean by atomizing. But yeah, the more money you will be required to borrow to finance your spending, the more creative accountants will become with finding tricks to go around property-debt relation rules in the credit market until all property-debt relations are undermined. We saw this live in Greece just recently.

403 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:39:28am

re: #402 000G

he more money you will be required to borrow to finance your spending, the more creative accountants will become with finding tricks to go around property-debt relation rules in the credit market until all property-debt relations are undermined. We saw this live in Greece just recently.

Which will, btw, lead to the two-tiered assets and the "emergency" rules for the NCBs within the Eurozone eventually being exposed.

404 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:39:52am

re: #402 000G

Why do you think it "kicks up" inflation?

Do you realize how annoying you're being by continually asking questions like that? If you don't think it does, or if there's a larger point you want to make, make it.

But yeah, the more money you will be required to borrow to finance your spending, the more creative accountants will become with finding tricks to go around property-debt relation rules in the credit market until all property-debt relations are undermined. We saw this live in Greece just recently.

Which is a perfectly good point that has nothing to do with the point I was making.


If you eat nothing but rabbit, you'll starve to death, because it's too lean. That doesn't mean that eating rabbit makes you starve to death.

405 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:46:25am

You stated that all government spending stays in the economy, as if "the economy" was some sort of closed energy system and the conservation of money being spent was like the conservation of work in the first law of thermodynamics.

My point was that it is not, that property actually gets devalued through crisis events (like hyper-inflation, deflation, debt restructuring, currency reform, etc.), and that crisis events can very well get triggered by excessive spending through excessive spending requiring excessive debt for deficit financing purposes.

406 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:52:19am

re: #405 000G

You stated that all government spending stays in the economy, as if "the economy

Actually, I didn't.

was some sort of closed energy system and the conservation of money being spent was like the conservation of work in the first law of thermodynamics.

Nope. Nothing so grand. I was pointing out that right-wing propaganda pretends that all government spending vanishes, when it doesn't. I wasn't making any point like "So we can spend as much as we like with no consequences". You just inferred all that, for some reason.

My point was that it is not, that property actually gets devalued through crisis events (like hyper-inflation, deflation, debt restructuring, currency reform, etc.), and that crisis events can very well get triggered by excessive spending through excessive spending requiring excessive debt for deficit financing purposes.

Yep. If you spend so much you need to borrow so much that it turns into a crisis, then there are going to be huge problems. Perfectly okay point. Had nothing to do with what I was talking about.

407 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:53:45am

re: #406 Obdicut

Actually, I didn't.

Well, then I misinterpreted this sentence:

government spending does not get dumped into a black hole and vanish from the economy

My bad.

408 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:55:47am

re: #407 000G

That sentence meant that government spending doesn't get dumped into a black hole and vanish from the economy.

Not sure why you interpreted that to mean "Borrowing huge amounts of money to finance debt will never cause any sort of crisis."

409 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:00:11am

re: #408 Obdicut

Well, some government spending does get dumped into a black hole and vanish from the economy in a crisis event. So I read your sentence as saying "no government spending gets ever dumped into a black hole", which read wrong to me.

But yeah, not all government spending gets dumped into a black hole, not by a long shot.

410 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 21, 2011 11:14:32am
So I read your sentence as saying "no government spending gets ever dumped into a black hole", which read wrong to me.

I have no idea why you read it that way, but oh well.

There was plenty of context there.


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One to Watch: JASMINEGOLD Return With Scintillating Debut Album Serpent JASMINEGOLD have returned with their incredible debut album, Serpent. The alternative hip-hop duo from North Florida (formed by David Nights and KJ) only burst on the scene last year but have been gaining traction quickly with over 200,000 views ...
Pips
2 weeks, 6 days ago
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One to Watch: Rising Artist Zenya Ray Makes a Huge Impression With Emotive Track “Even the Angels” Zenya Ray is a composer, with a rapidly growing and loyal following, based in Sacramento, California, and originally from Japan. Despite only making his music debut in 2022, he’s managed to get off to a flying start, with his ...
Pips
2 weeks, 6 days ago
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