Bill Lee, police chief of Sanford, Florida, where 17-year old Trayvon Martin was gunned down by vigilante George Zimmerman, is “temporarily” stepping down.
Zimmerman, meanwhile, has still not been arrested.
1 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:06:02pm |
If I were the sort of person who wagered on others’ misfortunes, I would bet money that Zimmerman walks. At most a suspended sentence or probation.
| 2 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:08:03pm |
re: #1 Second Amendment Renegation
If I were the sort of person who wagered on others’ misfortunes, I would bet money that Zimmerman walks. At most a suspended sentence or probation.
There’s little point in really trying to bring a case against him. Any evidence that might have gotten him convicted on manslaughter at a minimum has now been tainted by the cover-up or simply lost due said cover-up. And even if enough could be scraped together to get him charged, those charges would just be thrown out under the very law that allowed him to gun down Martin.
No, George Zimmerman’s never going to see the inside of a jail cell for this. But there a lot of people in the Sanford Police Department who should.
| 3 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:08:37pm |
re: #1 Second Amendment Renegation
As long as he claims he was attacked and there’s no disproof of that, the law as it stands will protect him.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
Unless the ‘reasonably’ there gets interpreted very differently than it did in other similar cases, and as long as his pursuit isn’t judged to be illegal, though I have no clue why it would be.
| 4 |
Mattand Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:12:37pm |
I was going to say the stepping down was a step in the right direction. On further reflection, it doesn’t mean jack shit. Trayvon Martin is dead because he was buying Skittles while black and had the misfortunate to be near a trigger -happy racist moron who was enabled by a FL law that basically legalizes murder.
| 5 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:12:51pm |
Raimondo was the patrol sergeant in charge on the night Collison, who is white, was first detained. Raimondo made the decision not to press charges against Collison, which a former Sanford elected official told theGrio was at the behest of his superiors.
Video evidence of Collison punching Ware from behind and driving his face into a pole was posted on YouTube. Despite Sanford police being in possession of this video, no charges were filed against Collison until local news outlets exposed the cover-up.
One month later, mounting pressure over this oversight led to Collison’s arrest. He was subsequently charged with felony battery and disorderly conduct, and paid restitution to Ware for medical bills and personal damages. Collison also made donations to area non-profits at Ware’s request, as part of his compensation.
These events sparked an investigation by the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office into the conduct of the nine officers who were on duty the night Collison was wrongfully released without being charged. Ultimately, the scandal led to the retirement of former Sanford Police Chief Brian Tooley, who announced his retirement the day after Sanford police authorities met with the local NAACP over the incident.
Some perceived this case as part of a pattern of law enforcement abuses that have taken place in central Florida since early 2010, due to a lack of police oversight.
| 6 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:16:28pm |
re: #5 Kragar
America is as post-racial as it is post-capitalist.
| 7 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:17:24pm |
My personal, pessimistic worst-case scenario:
Zimmerman walks (fairly inevitable at this point)
Somebody decides that will just not do and takes out some vigilante justice on Mr. Z, turning him into a hero and martyr to the SYG-supporter crowd, and ensuring that the law is not changed, except to strengthen it…
I hope I am wrong on this one.
| 8 |
S'latch Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:17:47pm |
I don’t understand why Zimmerman isn’t arrested and charged. Even if the law in Florida provides a defense, Zimmerman should have to assert it in court.
| 9 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:20:10pm |
re: #3 Obdicut
as long as his pursuit isn’t judged to be illegal, though I have no clue why it would be.
There’s a (somewhat thin) possibility that Zimmerman could be charged with kidnapping under color of authority / false arrest. Basically nobody has the right to stop another person and restrict their movement. There are only very limited exceptions to this, such as shopkeeper’s privilege.
| 10 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:20:45pm |
re: #8 Lawrence Schmerel
I don’t understand why Zimmerman isn’t arrested and charged. Even if the law in Florida provides a defense, Zimmerman should have to assert it in court.
This article doesn’t say it, but the one over at the Washington Post does:
SANFORD, Fla. — The police chief at the center of a fatal neighborhood watch shooting says he is stepping down temporarily because he has become a distraction.
Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee made the announcement at a news conference Thursday. Lee has been criticized after police did not arrest George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who shot an unarmed black teen to death on Feb. 26.
The police chief has said authorities were prohibited from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time of the shooting.
Zimmerman claims the shooting was self-defense. He told police 17-year-old Trayvon Martin attacked him after he had given up on chasing the teenager and was returning to his sport utility vehicle.
It’s like I’ve been saying, this “Stand Your Ground” law means the cops can’t arrest you, or convict you if they do, for murder if the only other witness to the crime is dead. Under this law, the moment Martin so much as took a swing at Zimmerman, he was legally able to empty the entire magazine into Martin and the cops couldn’t touch him.
| 11 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:20:52pm |
From the link:
Zimmerman, whose family says is Hispanic but whom police have described as white, was not arrested.
People are so ignorant.
| 12 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:21:08pm |
re: #7 Second Amendment Renegation
That’s possible. He is probably going to have to go into a relocation program if he does go free. I also think the racial angle has been overplayed. This is often from people who mean well but does not help race relations. There’s always the possibility of revenge attacks and unrest in cases like this.
| 13 |
Mattand Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:25:04pm |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
That’s possible. He is probably going to have to go into a relocation program if he does go free. I also think the racial angle has been overplayed. This is often from people who mean well but does not help race relations. There’s always the possibility of revenge attacks and unrest in cases like this.
(bolding is mine)
I think you’re being way too generous/naive regarding the bolded statement.
| 14 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:25:22pm |
Leave it to Tom Petty, a native Floridian, to provide the soundtrack to this discussion:
| 15 |
S'latch Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:25:59pm |
re: #10 Targetpractice
That does not make sense to me. Martin is dead. Zimmerman shot him. So what if he has a legal defense. I don’t see why he shouldn’t have to assert it in court.
| 16 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:26:52pm |
re: #9 goddamnedfrank
Yeah, but it’s unclear that that happened. He may have just followed Trayvon until Trayvon, freaked out by it, doubled back on him and confronted him.
| 17 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:27:24pm |
The amazing part is that nobody, not even Zimmerman’s defenders, have said that Martin was actually doing anything actually illegal.
| 18 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:27:33pm |
re: #15 Lawrence Schmerel
That does not make sense to me. Martin is dead. Zimmerman shot him. So what if he has a legal defense. I don’t see why he shouldn’t have to assert it in court.
Not being familiar with department policy, my guess is that the tripling of the “justifiable homicide” rate since the law passed has seen a change in policy that says if the shooter can claim that he engaged in “self-defense” and no evidence at the scene says otherwise, then they’re to treat it as such.
| 19 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:27:38pm |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
The racial angle gets confused. I don’t have any evidence Zimmerman was racist. There is plenty of evidence that the US legal and justice system is institutionally racist.
| 20 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:27:43pm |
re: #15 Lawrence Schmerel
That does not make sense to me. Martin is dead. Zimmerman shot him. So what if he has a legal defense. I don’t see why he shouldn’t have to assert it in court.
SYG says he doesn’t have to - that’s the point.
| 21 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:29:10pm |
re: #7 Second Amendment Renegation
My personal, pessimistic worst-case scenario:
Zimmerman walks (fairly inevitable at this point)
Somebody decides that will just not do and takes out some vigilante justice on Mr. Z, turning him into a hero and martyr to the SYG-supporter crowd, and ensuring that the law is not changed, except to strengthen it…
I hope I am wrong on this one.
Bad scenario, but unlikely. All of the racist killings I can remember in my lifetime where the law went awry, I don’t ever recall a vigilante justice response.
I’m sure it’s happened, and there’s always a first time, but it doesn’t seem likely.
| 22 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:29:37pm |
| 23 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:29:56pm |
re: #17 To hold my temper, most of the time.
The amazing part is that nobody, not even Zimmerman’s defenders, have said that Martin was actually doing anything actually illegal.
The dumbasses over at The Blaze tried to play up his suspension, wondering aloud if it was due to something like assault. Others have just shrugged their shoulders and blamed Martin for having his hoodie up, as it made him look “suspicious.”
| 24 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:31:04pm |
re: #23 Targetpractice
I think it came out that it was a high number of tardies that got him suspended.
Very dangerous, people who are late to things.
| 25 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:31:35pm |
re: #23 Targetpractice
The dumbasses over at The Blaze tried to play up his suspension, wondering aloud if it was due to something like assault. Others have just shrugged their shoulders and blamed Martin for having his hoodie up, as it made him look “suspicious.”
I had my hood up the other day.
It was cold and raining.
My son put his up the other day to protest that I was nagging him about something.
| 26 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:32:21pm |
re: #19 Obdicut
I don’t have any evidence Zimmerman was racist.
We have equivocal evidence, it may not be ironclad but it exists to be interpreted. Either he said fucking coons, which is what I hear, or fucking cones, which is what you hear. If he’s out of the car at the point he says it, which is supported by the increased ambient wind noise then cones is less likely. Similarly if it can be established that there were no traffic cones deployed on any of the roads or walkways in the community, cones becomes extremely unlikely.
| 27 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:32:25pm |
re: #24 Obdicut
I think it came out that it was a high number of tardies that got him suspended.
Very dangerous, people who are late to things.
Oh dear.
Mormons should be jailed en masse.
The only thing that starts on time in the LDS church is our actual services. Everything less formal than that starts twenty minutes late.
| 28 |
Gus Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:32:48pm |
re: #22 wrenchwench
I disagree. Strongly.
Is this the video?
Cops Son Caught On Camera Punching Homeless Man
Unbelievable! Sanford Cop’s Son Arrested In 2007 Shooting (Justin Collison)
| 29 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:32:52pm |
re: #19 Obdicut
The racial angle gets confused. I don’t have any evidence Zimmerman was racist. There is plenty of evidence that the US legal and justice system is institutionally racist.
Number of white kids Zimmerman walked up to and shot in the head: 0
Number of black kids Zimmerman walked up to and shot in the head: 1
| 30 |
Lidane Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:33:56pm |
re: #17 To hold my temper, most of the time.
The amazing part is that nobody, not even Zimmerman’s defenders, have said that Martin was actually doing anything actually illegal.
He was walking while black. Clearly, this was a crime that required being followed by a crazed Dirty Harry wannabe, first from a car then on foot. Then he should have been confronted, attacked, and murdered.
| 31 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:34:55pm |
re: #26 goddamnedfrank
We have equivocal evidence, it may not be ironclad but it exists to be interpreted. Either he said fucking coons, which is what I hear, or fucking cones, which is what you hear.
Or something else. It’s a muttered phrase that’s hard to hear.
If someone is a racist, there’s usually more evidence than a single muttered statement. It’ll come out.
| 32 |
Lidane Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:35:54pm |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
I also think the racial angle has been overplayed.
You’re pathetically naive.
Reverse all of the circumstances in this case, with Zimmerman being followed and killed by Martin. Martin would be in jail right now awaiting trial for murder.
| 33 |
Gus Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:36:47pm |
re: #31 Obdicut
Or something else. It’s a muttered phrase that’s hard to hear.
If someone is a racist, there’s usually more evidence than a single muttered statement. It’ll come out.
At first I thought I heard a “c” but I’ve since been hearing “p”. I’ll leave it to the experts.
| 34 |
The Ghost of a Flea Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:37:06pm |
re: #23 Targetpractice
The dumbasses over at The Blaze tried to play up his suspension, wondering aloud if it was due to something like assault. Others have just shrugged their shoulders and blamed Martin for having his hoodie up, as it made him look “suspicious.”
And they’ll ignore that in his phone conversation with his girlfriend, he mentions being nervous about the guy following him and puts his hood up.
And I’ll just go there and say that Zimmerman entire reasoning on why he needed to watch, follow, and call the police on Martin is hard to explain without at least one racist assumption being worked in.
| 35 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:37:09pm |
re: #32 Lidane
You’re pathetically naive.
Reverse all of the circumstances in this case, with Zimmerman being followed and killed by Martin. Martin would be in jail right now awaiting trial for murder.
Can you imagine? Black man walks up to white middle class kid returning home from library, shoots kid in head.
Not arrested.
“Racial angle overplayed” my fucking arse.
| 36 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:37:12pm |
re: #29 iossarian
Number of white kids Zimmerman walked up to and shot in the head: 0
Number of black kids Zimmerman walked up to and shot in the head: 1
Timely new thread!
p.s. I don’t know if Trayvon was shot in the head, were you just using poetic license or have those details been released?
| 37 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:37:57pm |
re: #32 Lidane
You’re pathetically naive.
Reverse all of the circumstances in this case, with Zimmerman being followed and killed by Martin. Martin would be in jail right now awaiting trial for murder.
At the very least, his ass would have been hauled in for questioning, drug tests, and GSR testing. The crime scene would have also been gone over with a fine-toothed comb, and there would be no coaching of witnesses as to who was calling for help.
| 38 |
abolitionist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:39:27pm |
re: #31 Obdicut
Or something else. It’s a muttered phrase that’s hard to hear.
If someone is a racist, there’s usually more evidence than a single muttered statement. It’ll come out.
I’d assume the Sanford PD still has the many other recordings. If he said it once, it’s likely that’s not the only instance.
| 39 |
Gus Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:39:30pm |
re: #36 Obdicut
Timely new thread!
p.s. I don’t know if Trayvon was shot in the head, were you just using poetic license or have those details been released?
I can see that thread degrading into a “punks” versus “c**ns” squabble pretty quickly. Maybe not.
| 40 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:39:40pm |
re: #36 Obdicut
Timely new thread!
p.s. I don’t know if Trayvon was shot in the head, were you just using poetic license or have those details been released?
Poetic license. Pretty angry about the whole thing obviously.
BTW I know what you mean re. “we don’t know if Zimmerman is racist” but to be honest, given that he’s still on the loose and that I imagine white parents are not keeping their 17-year-old boys indoors, I think the small sample size still yields a certain amount of significance.
| 41 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:39:46pm |
re: #34 The Ghost of a Flea
And they’ll ignore that in his phone conversation with his girlfriend, he mentions being nervous about the guy following him and puts his hood up.
And I’ll just go there and say that Zimmerman entire reasoning on why he needed to watch, follow, and call the police on Martin is hard to explain without at least one racist assumption being worked in.
Oh, I’ve been told by Zimmerman defenders that the girlfriend’s testimony is suspect, if not outright falsified. How do they know? Because she hasn’t talked to the police, which is supposed to be “proof” of her deception.
| 42 |
Lidane Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:40:10pm |
re: #35 iossarian
Can you imagine? Black man walks up to white middle class kid returning home from library, shoots kid in head.
Not arrested.
Not arrested. Not charged with murder. Not tested for drugs or alcohol. Not questioned by the police, or even investigated.
In this country? Bitch please. If all the circumstances in this case were reversed, we wouldn’t be talking about this story. Martin would be in jail awaiting trial for murder. Simple as that.
“Racial angle overplayed” my fucking arse.
Seriously. It hasn’t been overplayed at all.
| 43 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:40:58pm |
re: #40 iossarian
I’m perfectly happy to talk at length about the racism in our justice and legal system, but I’m not willing to hoist a particular dude as a racist until there’s compelling evidence for it. But I also think being a racist is a less serious problem than being a vigilante murdering fuckhead.
| 44 |
Lidane Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:42:13pm |
re: #43 Obdicut
I’m not willing to hoist a particular dude as a racist until there’s compelling evidence for it.
I would think that following a black kid in your car, then on foot against police instruction, then confronting, attacking, and killing him would be compelling evidence.
| 45 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:42:49pm |
re: #15 Lawrence Schmerel
That does not make sense to me. Martin is dead. Zimmerman shot him. So what if he has a legal defense. I don’t see why he shouldn’t have to assert it in court.
What ever happened to ‘rather be judged by twelve than carried by six’? The whole concept behind this law seems to have vaulted past ‘stand your ground’ and into ‘God forbid you should demonstrate that you had need to shoot after blowing someone away on the street’.
| 46 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:43:01pm |
re: #43 Obdicut
I’m perfectly happy to talk at length about the racism in our justice and legal system, but I’m not willing to hoist a particular dude as a racist until there’s compelling evidence for it. But I also think being a racist is a less serious problem than being a vigilante murdering fuckhead.
This is true. Maybe he is just a violent asshole. Still I can’t imagine that there hadn’t been white kids wandering around his neighborhood in the past, and for some reason he didn’t get around to confronting them in this way.
| 47 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:43:50pm |
re: #44 Lidane
I would think that following a black kid in your car, then on foot against police instruction, then confronting, attacking, and killing him would be compelling evidence.
Why? Zimmerman might have done the same thing to a white kid he didn’t know. We don’t know.
| 48 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:44:20pm |
re: #18 Targetpractice
Not being familiar with department policy, my guess is that the tripling of the “justifiable homicide” rate since the law passed has seen a change in policy that says if the shooter can claim that he engaged in “self-defense” and no evidence at the scene says otherwise, then they’re to treat it as such.
Goddamn, that must make domestic homicides easy. “She was screaming at me. I shot her. It was self-defense.”
“OK, dude.”
| 49 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:44:48pm |
re: #26 goddamnedfrank
Either he said fucking coons, which is what I hear, or fucking cones, which is what you hear
Or something entirely else, which is what other people hear.
| 50 |
Lidane Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:44:51pm |
re: #48 SanFranciscoZionist
Goddamn, that must make domestic homicides easy. “She was screaming at me. I shot her. It was self-defense.”
“OK, dude.”
Legalized murder. It’s insane.
| 51 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:45:06pm |
re: #46 iossarian
This is true. Maybe he is just a violent asshole. Still I can’t imagine that there hadn’t been white kids wandering around his neighborhood in the past, and for some reason he didn’t get around to confronting them in this way.
He is a violent asshole. The SPD had to arrest him one for assaulting a police officer who was arresting a friend, but succeeded in pleading the charges off his record.
| 52 |
Mattand Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:45:31pm |
re: #47 Obdicut
Why? Zimmerman might have done the same thing to a white kid he didn’t know. We don’t know.
Come on; really?
| 53 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:45:35pm |
re: #19 Obdicut
The racial angle gets confused. I don’t have any evidence Zimmerman was racist. There is plenty of evidence that the US legal and justice system is institutionally racist.
I have some reason to think that Zimmerman wouldn’t have shot a white kid in a similar situation.
I have A LOT of reason to think that if he had, he would be in jail.
| 54 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:45:35pm |
re: #46 iossarian
Well, sure, but that’s a long distance from being actually murderous against someone from another race. Like I said, I think most people are racist in that way of being more suspicious of an unknown black person in their neighborhood.
| 55 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:46:07pm |
re: #47 Obdicut
Why? Zimmerman might have done the same thing to a white kid he didn’t know. We don’t know.
Except that very plausibly he would have had that opportunity in the past and did not take it. Again, sample size is small but not necessarily insignificant.
Anyway, I’m going to drop this now because I’m not in the mood for constructive argument. I’ve said my bit.
| 56 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:46:10pm |
re: #48 SanFranciscoZionist
Goddamn, that must make domestic homicides easy. “She was screaming at me. I shot her. It was self-defense.”
“OK, dude.”
Pretty much. All you have to say is that you “reasonably believed” that your life was in danger, and the cops can’t touch you. Certainly not when the only other witness to the crime is assuming room temperature.
| 57 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:46:25pm |
re: #23 Targetpractice
The dumbasses over at The Blaze tried to play up his suspension, wondering aloud if it was due to something like assault. Others have just shrugged their shoulders and blamed Martin for having his hoodie up, as it made him look “suspicious.”
It was fucking raining.
It rains hard in Florida.
| 58 |
Lidane Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:46:42pm |
re: #47 Obdicut
Why? Zimmerman might have done the same thing to a white kid he didn’t know. We don’t know.
Yeah. Because he would have looked at a white kid walking through a gated community at night and thought he was suspicious enough to follow in his car, then chase on foot.
Really?
| 59 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:47:24pm |
re: #55 iossarian
Except that very plausibly he would have had that opportunity in the past and did not take it. Again, sample size is small but not necessarily insignificant.
But that’s complete conjecture on your part. And he apparently called in about other suspicious black kids (which is proof of the latent, simple kind of racism, in my opinion) without following them.
| 60 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:47:30pm |
re: #25 To hold my temper, most of the time.
I had my hood up the other day.
It was cold and raining.
My son put his up the other day to protest that I was nagging him about something.
Kids like to go into them. It provides a little distance from the world.
| 61 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:47:59pm |
re: #54 Obdicut
Well, sure, but that’s a long distance from being actually murderous against someone from another race. Like I said, I think most people are racist in that way of being more suspicious of an unknown black person in their neighborhood.
Which is what makes that law so stupid, as pointed out by its opponents in the legislature.
If lots of people are suspicious of black youths, that’s one thing.
If lots of people are suspicious of black youths and can legally execute them on the basis of that suspicion, it becomes a problem.
| 62 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:49:20pm |
re: #59 Obdicut
But that’s complete conjecture on your part. And he apparently called in about other suspicious black kids (which is proof of the latent, simple kind of racism, in my opinion) without following them.
I would conjecture that Zimmerman’s long list of calls to 911 to report “suspicious persons,” with a low return rate, was what motivated him to take matters into his own hands. That he felt if he could physically catch one in the act and hold him until the cops arrived, he could attain some measure of “hero” status for himself.
| 63 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:49:36pm |
re: #58 Lidane
Yes really, he might have done that. I’m not sure why it’s so unbelievable that maybe this guy is ‘just’ a vigilante murdering fuckhead asshole who think he has the right to play rambo-cop and gun down teenagers, and why he also must obviously be murderously racist, as well.
I’m pretty sure he was more suspicious of black people than he would be of a white person, if that’s what you’re asking. That doesn’t mean he wouldn’t also follow some sketchy white kid. We don’t know. And I really don’t think it’s as important as A) the institutional racism displayed by the police department and B) the terrible fucking law that may protect him from this act of murder.
| 64 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:50:51pm |
re: #31 Obdicut
Or something else. It’s a muttered phrase that’s hard to hear.
If someone is a racist, there’s usually more evidence than a single muttered statement. It’ll come out.
The neighborhood people say that he was preoccupied with the danger of young black men walking in their community, IIRC. He may not have been ‘a racist’, whatever that term requires, but he was clearly someone who thought that young black men were likely to be dangerous, which undoubtedly prejudiced his thoughts about what Trayvon was doing.
Not unique to him, alas. They’ve done studies where you show people pictures of white men and boys running, and black men and boys likewise. Same picture, same setting, expression, just changing the skin color and features.
Let’s just say that ‘he might be catching a bus’ comes up more often with the white pictures.
| 65 |
Mattand Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:51:08pm |
re: #62 Targetpractice
I would conjecture that Zimmerman’s long list of calls to 911 to report “suspicious persons,” with a low return rate, was what motivated him to take matters into his own hands. That he felt if he could physically catch one in the act and hold him until the cops arrived, he could attain some measure of “hero” status for himself.
Otherwise known as Bernhard Goetz Syndrome.
| 66 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:52:19pm |
re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist
Yes, I can completely believe he was the racist of the Harvard Implicit Association test type.
I think maybe the problem here is that I assume 90% of people are racists in that definition. I think I’ve been that sort of racist before, for example.
Someone being a racist and having that be part of the motive for murder is an entirely different thing.
| 67 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:53:02pm |
re: #46 iossarian
This is true. Maybe he is just a violent asshole. Still I can’t imagine that there hadn’t been white kids wandering around his neighborhood in the past, and for some reason he didn’t get around to confronting them in this way.
Trayvon was a stranger.
That said, I am morally certain that Zimmerman would not have shot a fresh-faced white kid who looked like Trayvon in all points except race.
| 68 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:53:21pm |
re: #65 mattand
Otherwise known as Bernhard Goetz Syndrome.
If Trayvon had had any violent convictions and a rap sheet, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
Edit: Noticed I wrote ‘on his rap sheet’, indicating he had one. He didn’t. My apologies.
| 69 |
Political Atheist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:53:45pm |
re: #7 Second Amendment Renegation
My personal, pessimistic worst-case scenario:
Zimmerman walks (fairly inevitable at this point)
Somebody decides that will just not do and takes out some vigilante justice on Mr. Z, turning him into a hero and martyr to the SYG-supporter crowd, and ensuring that the law is not changed, except to strengthen it…
I hope I am wrong on this one.
Keep this in mind-The feds at The Justice Dept are not encumbered with the state statute.
| 70 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:55:03pm |
re: #69 Daniel Ballard
Keep this in mind-The feds at The Justice Dept are not encumbered with the state statute.
But they are encumbered by the results of the statute, namely the piss-poor police work of a department with a history of questionable conduct where minorities are involved.
| 71 |
Political Atheist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:55:44pm |
re: #68 Obdicut
I think in the Getz case there was a credible threat from multiple attackers. That puts it “bad analogy” land.
| 72 |
Mattand Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:56:11pm |
re: #68 Obdicut
If Trayvon had had any violent convictions on his rap sheet, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
If he had any sort of violent conviction, we’d be having this discussion. Many more people would just be more content in thinking the kid had it coming, regardless of what a stupid idea vigilantism is.
| 73 |
Political Atheist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:56:42pm |
re: #70 Targetpractice
They can charge and convict him with Federal statutes. I hope that happens. I really do.
| 74 |
ReamWorks SKG Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:56:57pm |
If the law really is so vague as to allow someone to chase and provoke someone until he “attacks” and then to shoot that person, then there may be no cause to prosecute him under Florida law.
But this idiotic law should be suspended immediately.
I hope there’s some Federal charge they can use, and there will still be a civil suit, perhaps against the gated community itself. Houses in Florida are judgement-proof (that’s why OJ had a house there, etc) so don’t expect the entire community to be forced to sell their homes….
| 75 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:57:55pm |
re: #66 Obdicut
Yes, I can completely believe he was the racist of the Harvard Implicit Association test.
I think maybe the problem here is that I assume 90% of people are racists in that definition. I think I’ve been that sort of racist before, for example.
Someone being a racist and having that be part of the motive for murder is an entirely different thing.
Yes and no. I cannot believe that Zimmerman’s beliefs about black men didn’t feed into this.
Do I believe he went out thinking “If I see a black guy, I will shoot him and claim self-defense?” No. That’s a fairly extreme level of sociopathy to assume of someone with no particular proof.
But he does go beyond you and I (who also have the racist script jangling in our heads to some degree) in that he felt comfortable sharing his at some length with others, and warning them about the black men. To the point that apparently at least one black neighbor had felt uncomfortable about the “Neighborhood Watch” e-mails he was getting.
| 76 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 22, 2012 1:58:22pm |
re: #73 Daniel Ballard
They can charge and convict him with Federal statutes. I hope that happens. I really do.
And again, without any solid evidence, which the work of this police department has denied them, it’s likely they won’t even have enough to charge him.
| 77 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:00:04pm |
[Police Chief Bill] Lee was on the job for just 10 months. He joined the department after a 27-year career at the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office with a mission to clean up a department marked by internal turmoil and race-related scandals.
| 78 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:01:27pm |
re: #72 mattand
If he had any sort of violent conviction, we’d be having this discussion. Many more people would just be more content in thinking the kid had it coming, regardless of what a stupid idea vigilantism is.
I hope so. I have a feeling there are probably quite a few cases like this we haven’t heard about, because the kids didn’t have family to stick up for them.
| 79 |
Mattand Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:02:28pm |
re: #71 Daniel Ballard
I thin k in the Getz case there was a credible threat. That puts it “bad analogy” land.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
Maybe you’re right.
I guess part of my issue with this whole case is that I’m related to people who would be more than happy to exercise their “rights” towards minorities under this FL law.
I’ve seen this kind of “what are those people doing here” thinking up close for over 40 years. It’s not much of a stretch to see them acting on it.
| 80 |
Ming Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:19:24pm |
With the Trayvon Martin tragedy, this week has been the first time I’ve ever felt so shaky about the men and women in our police departments. Before this week, I’d always assumed that in every jurisdiction in America, the overwhelming majority of police officers, and their superior officers, are dedicated to serve and protect the public. To enforce THE LAW, meaning the secular law in their jurisdictions, not some notion of their own about what’s right and wrong (biblically, racially, or otherwise). I simply assumed, with total confidence, that in a situation like this tragedy, George Zimmerman would have been arrested, and the Sanford Police would have thoroughly investigated the matter.
One of the witnesses, whom I saw last night on Anderson Cooper’s CNN show, said that the Sanford Police lied about the witness statement that she gave them. You could have knocked me over with a feather, but after the news this week, I believe her. This reminds me of a long time ago, when Alan Dershowitz used the phrase “testilying” about what police sometimes do in drug cases. I was inclined to believe that “testilying” happens sometimes, especially no doubt in drug cases, but I assumed at the time that it couldn’t be very widespread.
The way things stand now, thanks to this heartbreaking tragedy, millions of Americans have been put on notice that their confidence in their own police forces may not be justified. It’s not a good feeling.
| 81 |
Political Atheist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:24:19pm |
Yet another indication the law was not the heart of the problem, the law got abused. By Zimmerman and the police.
| 82 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:26:25pm |
re: #81 Daniel Ballard
Yet another indication the law was not the heart of the problem, the law got abused. By Zimmerman and the police.
Nope. It’s just an indication that the cops fucked up the investigation, and they know it. It sheds no light on the fitness of the law.
| 83 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:28:01pm |
re: #80 Ming
With the Trayvon Martin tragedy, this week has been the first time I’ve ever felt so shaky about the men and women in our police departments. Before this week, I’d always assumed that in every jurisdiction in America, the overwhelming majority of police officers, and their superior officers, are dedicated to serve and protect the public. To enforce THE LAW, meaning the secular law in their jurisdictions, not some notion of their own about what’s right and wrong (biblically, racially, or otherwise). I simply assumed, with total confidence, that in a situation like this tragedy, George Zimmerman would have been arrested, and the Sanford Police would have thoroughly investigated the matter.
One of the witnesses, whom I saw last night on Anderson Cooper’s CNN show, said that the Sanford Police lied about the witness statement that she gave them. You could have knocked me over with a feather, but after the news this week, I believe her. This reminds me of a long time ago, when Alan Dershowitz used the phrase “testilying” about what police sometimes do in drug cases. I was inclined to believe that “testilying” happens sometimes, especially no doubt in drug cases, but I assumed at the time that it couldn’t be very widespread.
The way things stand now, thanks to this heartbreaking tragedy, millions of Americans have been put on notice that their confidence in their own police forces may not be justified. It’s not a good feeling.
Are you very, very, young? I mean “Not Around for the Civil Rights Movement and Anti-Viet Nam Young’?
Cops, for all the effort to professionalize them, are still a very mixed bag—just like real people. There has been some obvious improvement in my lifetime, especially in removing most Southern local forces from collusion with the Klan and their cohorts. That’s why I feel safe keeping my guns and ammo stored away under separate lock and key. Efforts like the Oathkeepers, designed to restore the old system, are a real threat.
| 84 |
Mattand Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:28:17pm |
re: #81 Daniel Ballard
Yet another indication the law was not the heart of the problem, the law got abused. By Zimmerman and the police.
IMO, the law is at the heart of problem, as it is so fucking vague it allows for this kind of tragedy.
| 85 |
Mattand Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:33:13pm |
#80 Ming
#83 Decatur Deb
I try very hard to remind myself that many people in law enforcement, particularly officers in the field and on the beat, work in a job where there’s a real possibility they might get killed by the end of their shift.
It’s a tough job and I couldn’t do it.
This unfortunately is coupled with the behavior of some of the LEOs I’ve known over the years; local, state, and fed. For every one who tried the damnedest to do the right thing was one who shouldn’t be allowed near a slingshot, let alone a live firearm.
| 86 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:36:02pm |
re: #85 mattand
#80 Ming
#83 Decatur Deb
I try very hard to remind myself that many people in law enforcement, particularly officers in the field and on the beat, work in a job where there’s a real possibility they might get killed by the end of their shift.
It’s a tough job and I couldn’t do it.
This unfortunately is coupled with the behavior of some of the LEOs I’ve known over the years; local, state, and fed. For every one who tried the damnedest to do the right thing was one who shouldn’t be allowed near a slingshot, let alone a live firearm.
Pretty much the truth. The good news is that in most locations it’s now a matter of individual pathology, rather than a consciously directed system to terrorize a large part of the populace.
| 87 |
Mattand Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:40:28pm |
re: #86 Decatur Deb
Pretty much the truth. The good news is that in most locations it’s now a matter of individual pathology, rather than a consciously directed system to terrorize a large part of the populace.
I don’t know about that. There’s a small town right next to Philly called Darby where a few years back, the entire police force was pretty much driven out by the FBI for massive corruption. And of course, there’s Philly itself.
I hope you’re right though. A late, dearly missed friend of mine made a comment similar to the one you made to Ming. She basically said that unless you were there, one has no concept about how bad racism was in the country prior to the Civil Rights Act and the attendant protests.
| 88 |
Political Atheist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:42:25pm |
re: #82 Obdicut
Nope. It’s just an indication that the cops fucked up the investigation, and they know it. It sheds no light on the fitness of the law.
You are heavily invested in the law being the core of the problem. I on the other hand am still finding out.
| 89 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:45:25pm |
re: #88 Daniel Ballard
You are heavily invested in the law being the core of the problem. I on the other hand am still finding out.
No, you’ve repeatedly asserted that the law is not the problem.
| 90 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Mar 22, 2012 2:51:20pm |
re: #87 mattand
I don’t know about that. There’s a small town right next to Philly called Darby where a few years back, the entire police force was pretty much driven out by the FBI for massive corruption. And of course, there’s Philly itself.
I hope you’re right though. A late, dearly missed friend of mine made a comment similar to the one you made to Ming. She basically said that unless you were there, one has no concept about how bad racism was in the country prior to the Civil Rights Act and the attendant protests.
Sure, there are some forces that are systemically criminally corrupt and others that are still part of a feudal social control apparatus. (The suburban dolts who fired on the New Orleans evacuees come to mind, letting Sheriff Joe out of it for a while.) I do believe it’s getting a lot better, or maybe I’ve just seen too many over-polite polic-emans on Cops.
| 91 |
Political Atheist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:36:40pm |
re: #89 Obdicut
No, you’ve repeatedly asserted that the law is not the problem.
Yes but that is simply because in my read it should not even apply, as he stepped out of it’s coverage. it’s consistent with my point, but remember I also admitted my lack of legal training and undertook to fill in that blank. A work in progress.
| 92 |
Political Atheist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:38:29pm |
re: #89 Obdicut
No, you’ve repeatedly asserted that the law is not the problem.
What if the police are misapplying the law and get retrained into an interpretation like mine and my sources of data so far? What would that do to your opinion in this particular case?
| 93 |
Political Atheist Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:44:32pm |
Obdicut I am enjoying our discussion, I really am. I think we can both learn a thing or two here and better yet get some good info out there via our conversation. Alas, I have a meeting to go to. I think i have gone as far as I can before tomorrows meeting with my attorney and another defensive trainer.
I plan to really diss your reading of the law to any gun student or owner who asks. (the students will have to pass my written test) I”ll insist they not do any of the wrong things Zimmerman did, and insist they assume the burden of proof is on them if they use force. Like that threat better be apparent and physical not just a feeling. I hope you appreciate why I will do that. I want to quash any notion of wide leeway in self defense.
Your name stays out of it of course!
| 94 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Thu, Mar 22, 2012 4:47:09pm |
re: #92 Daniel Ballard
What if the police are misapplying the law and get retrained into an interpretation like mine and my sources of data so far? What would that do to your opinion in this particular case?
It’s entirely possible the police are misapplying the law, as are all the courts that have previously ruled on this subject. Retraining the cops would not fix the precedent set in the courts, unfortunately, and I have no idea what basis you’d retrain them on when the precedent set in court says otherwise.
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