Tacit Consent From Breitbart.com Encourages Riehl To Make Sexist Attacks On Conservative Women

When sexism on the Right isn’t condemned, it flourishes.
Wingnuts • Views: 51,770

Adam Serwer, writing about Huslter Magazine’s despicable portrayal of conservative S.E. Cupp, made a great observation:

Where conservatives look at the Hustler “parody” as indicative of liberal contempt for conservative women, feminists see a larger problem about how women are treated that affects everything from health insurance to how much you take home on your paycheck. To have condemned Limbaugh for his sexism in the same unconditional manner would have been a distraction, because the real problem isn’t sexism, it’s liberals. For feminists, sexism is the problem, period.

David Waldman put it like this:

Another way of putting it is that once again, liberals think we’re all in this together, but conservatives say its all about me

The problem with this outlook among certain conservatives, aside from the fact that it’s despicable hypocrisy, is that cheering or allowing sexism against progressive women is bound to encourage sexism against everyone, including conservative women. The kind of guys who lash out with sexist attacks against women for having liberal views are the kind of guys who will lash out with sexist attacks against conservative women for other reasons.

As an example, consider Dan Riehl’s sexist attack on Joan Walsh, where he said:

I don’t mind Joan Walsh getting low, but if she’s going to open her mouth, wish she’d do something I might actually enjoy for once!

Riehl later justified his view by saying Joan Walsh deserves to have creepy sexual things said about her because she says stuff that Riehl disagrees with:

Joan Walsh owes an apology, she isn’t entitled to one. And she owes too many more than this one for me to care. Don’t like it? ‪#SuckIt‬

This, of course, is the “logic” of sexism. Or maybe worse, as Tommy Christopher points out:

…I would also add that there is an extra dimension to attacks like Riehl’s, and Flynt’s attack on S.E. Cupp, and the attacks by Playboy Magazine on conservative women that landed me on this site in the first place. The combination of a sexual ‘fantasy’ with unmasked hostility carries with it an inherent lack of consent that carries these attacks beyond objectification, beyond dehumanization, and into violation.

Tommy Christopher reached out to breitbart.com to comment on the despicable behavior of their blogger. The site, however, like typical conservative tribalists who don’t care about women if those women commit the “sin” of being liberal, refused to respond. In fact, aside from a condemnation from Larry O’Connor and mild encouragement to “just stop” from Mike Flynn, the site’s editors refused to say anything remotely critical of Riehl’s comments.

And guess what? Encouraged by the silence of breitbart.com, Riehl went on to make a sexist comment to a conservative woman who criticized him for his comments! Who would have thought that just because he makes sexist comments to women for being liberal, he’d also make sexist comments to other women for having the audacity to criticize him? Oh, that’s right, everybody. Here’s what he said:

So there you have it. breitbart.com encourages sexist attacks via tacit consent, and this leads to sexist attacks against fellow conservatives. Even according to their own warped tribalistic code of ethics, they fail at life.

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230 comments
1 gummitch  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:37:50am

You have a pronoun problem: "Riehl later justified her view "

Was there any follow-up from April Gregory?

2 Kronocide  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:09:15am
To have condemned Limbaugh for his sexism in the same unconditional manner would have been a distraction, because the real problem isn’t sexism, it’s liberals.

And the ends justify the means, therefore, saying nasty crap about women is OK as long as it helps win the war against liberalism.

Riehl is a nasty thug, the first to don a brown shirt and jackboot when the time for accepting that comes.

3 God of Binders with Women  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:12:20am

Riehl is not only a total dick, he has to be the creepiest looking RWNJ of them all. It would not surprise me at all if this loser gets caught flashing children in the park one day.

4 Kronocide  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:22:35am

This really is indefensible after the faux outrage over SECupp's photoshop which was in bad taste.

Riehl's comment, not in bad taste. Sickenly misogynist and offensive.

Minor differences

5 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:28:41am

"Huslter" -> "Hustler"

6 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:37:47am

I think that for many conservatives racism, sexism and homophobia don't really exist in any meaningful way. They don't believe that discrimination still exist in ways that cause significant harm to those who experience it. They think these are words thrown around by the left as political weapons to extort and cower political opponents into submission, not out of genuine concern for societies well being. This allows you to do two things: you ignore any charges of racism, sexism and homophobia when they are thrown at you and you can use it as a weapon whenever you feel like it because it's all a game of name calling and being offensive just to piss liberals off. Calling someone a racist, sexist or homophobe means little more then being called a dick. It bounces off of you and then you proceed to be a dick. It's all a game.

7 RadicalModerate  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:38:15am

re: #4 Kronocide

This really is indefensible after the faux outrage over SECupp's photoshop which was in bad taste.

Riehl's comment, not in bad taste. Sickenly misogynist and offensive.

Minor differences

There's one other major difference between Flynt/Hustler magazine's "parodies" and Riehl.
Flynt's been doing this sort of thing for at least 30 years, and there is no ideological bent to his targets- he's gone after EVERYBODY from all parts of the political/social spectrum with equal levels of distasteful vigor - and has never crossed the line to advocate violence against any of them, as evidenced by the famous Hustler v Fallwell US Supreme Court case - which Flynt won on an 8-0 vote.

The same cannot be said about Riehl, on any of these points.

8 researchok  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:45:13am

Remember Playboy's Ten Conservative Women They'd Like To Hate F**k by Guy Cimbalo?

Notwithstanding those Neanderthals who defended the piece or found it amusing rather than offensive, a vast majority of influential liberal bloggers were outraged at Cimbalo and Playboy. As a result, Playboy removed the piece.

Jezebel was unequivocal in condemnation as were a slew of others. The left rejected Cimbalo and Playboy out of hand.

Just once, I'd like to see a cohesive response and see conservatives respond in the same way and reject stupidity.

The GOP have buried themselves- and it is the hard right who are now dancing on the grave.

9 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:46:54am

re: #6 moderatelyradicalliberal

I think that for many conservatives racism, sexism and homophobia don't really exist in any meaningful way. They don't believe that discrimination still exist in ways that cause significant harm to those who experience it. They think these are words thrown around by the left as political weapons to extort and cower political opponents into submission, not out of genuine concern for societies well being. This allows you to do two things: you ignore any charges of racism, sexism and homophobia when they are thrown at you and you can use it as a weapon whenever you feel like it because it's all a game of name calling and being offensive just to piss liberals off. Calling someone a racist, sexist or homophobe means little more then being called a dick. It bounces off of you and then you proceed to be a dick. It's all a game.

This is also my observation.

10 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:49:28am

re: #8 researchok

Remember Playboy's Ten Conservative Women They'd Like To Hate F**k ? by Guy Cimbalo?

Notwithstanding those Neanderthals who defended the piece or found it amusing rather than offensive, a vast majority of influential liberal bloggers were as outraged at Cimbalo and Playboy. As a result, Playboy removed the piece.

Jezebel was unequivocal in condemnation as were a slew of others. The left rejected Cimbalo and Playboy out of hand.

Just once, I'd like to see a cohesive response and see conservatives respond in the same way and reject stupidity.

The GOP have buried themselves- and it is the hard right who are now dancing on their grave.

It's hard to condemn something when you have invested yourself in believing it doesn't exist. Sexism, racism, homophobia, these things do not exist in modern conservative orthodoxy. Those problems have been fixed and anybody who says they are still problems are either suffering from white (or male or hetero) guilt or trying to extort something by using guilt.

11 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:52:33am

re: #7 RadicalModerate

Also, it's the matter of context. Basically, Hustler is where one can expect to see such a sort of thing. It's not a political tribune.

12 Interesting Times  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:55:51am

re: #11 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Also, it's the matter of context. Basically, Hustler is where one can expect to see such a sort of thing. It's not a political tribune.

13 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:55:54am

re: #10 moderatelyradicalliberal

It's hard to condemn something when you have invested yourself in believing it doesn't exist. Sexism, racism, homophobia, these things do not exist in modern conservative orthodoxy. Those problems have been fixed and anybody who says they are still problems are either suffering from white (or male or hetero) guilt or trying to extort something by using guilt.

Everything you've written these last two comments could have been pulled out of my head verbatim. I listen to a lot of right wing radio (more than I should) and they really do believe it has all been fixed, or didn't exist in the first place and the real bigots believe it's deserved.

14 Aye Pod  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:57:36am

They're all hooked up with the stalkers, whose daily existence is constituted of sick misogynistic attacks on female liberal posters so go figure.

15 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:01:20am

re: #14 Aye Pod

They're all hooked up with the stalkers, whose daily existence is constituted of sick misogynistic attacks on female liberal posters so go figure.

Yeah, Breitbartian shitstains who pal around with the blog full of neo-fascists and misogynists should STFU about their imaginary persecution.

16 Aye Pod  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:05:07am

re: #15 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Yeah, Breitbartian shitstains who pal around with the blog full of neo-fascists and misogynists should STFU about their imaginary persecution.

These wankers really need to be made to feel the pain of their association with these sad little freaks because it completely and utterly obliterates any possible defence on their part when it comes to denials of misogyny and bigotry of virtually any flavour.

17 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:09:08am

re: #13 Ghost of Insanity

Everything you've written these last two comments could have been pulled out of my head verbatim. I listen to a lot of right wing radio (more than I should) and they really do believe it has all been fixed, or didn't exist in the first place and the real bigots believe it's deserved.

It might also come down to the conservative belief that only bad things come from government. Government discrimination is more obvious in it's practice and effect. Personal bigotry on the other hand is not seen as having as much power. They don't seem to make the connection between a critical mass of personal bigotry in a majority can lead to systematic and institutional bigotry that leads to huge problems for a minority. That's why Barry Goldwater was against the public accommodations portion of the CRA. He thought only governments should be stopped from discriminating. He couldn't wrap his mind around the damage that personal bigotry does and felt the right to freedom of association trumped all. Ron Paul and his son believe the same thing. It's crazy because legal discrimination is just the personal bigotry of the masses encoded into laws.

18 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:09:25am

re: #14 Aye Pod

They're all hooked up with the stalkers, whose daily existence is constituted of sick misogynistic attacks on female liberal posters so go figure.

Toxic people.

19 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:14:06am

Conservatives have created a tidy little world where the problems of our society are things like high crime rate caused by soft laws, cushy jails, offender's rights groups and disregard for victims, high unemployment rates caused by women working, uncontrolled union demands, repressive unneeded regulations and socialism/communism, and they've identified the reason behind these faulty policies as liberal beliefs.

20 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:25:30am

re: #17 moderatelyradicalliberal

It might also come down to the conservative belief that only bad things come from government. Government discrimination is more obvious in it's practice and effect. Personal bigotry on the other hand is not seen as having as much power. They don't seem to make the connection between a critical mass of personal bigotry in a majority can lead to systematic and institutional bigotry that leads to huge problems for a minority. That's why Barry Goldwater was against the public accommodations portion of the CRA. He thought only governments should be stopped from discriminating. He couldn't wrap his mind around the damage that personal bigotry does and felt the right to freedom of association trumped all. Ron Paul and his son believe the same thing. It's crazy because legal discrimination is just the personal bigotry of the masses encoded into laws.

They either ignore or disbelieve that our language not only reflects bigotry but has a role in perpetuating the underlying belief system.

Conservatives do have a better intuitive grasp of how to affect belief systems than liberals. Everything they do is based on emotional narratives, something salespeople are taught to do.

21 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:31:18am
22 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:34:13am

Just a heads up for those who track the Martin/Zimmerman case - I've just found that Jeralyn at TalkLeft (she's a lawyer IIRC) posts interesting analyses of the evidence.

[Link: www.talkleft.com...]

23 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:35:40am

re: #7 RadicalModerate

There's one other major difference between Flynt/Hustler magazine's "parodies" and Riehl.
Flynt's been doing this sort of thing for at least 30 years, and there is no ideological bent to his targets- he's gone after EVERYBODY from all parts of the political/social spectrum with equal levels of distasteful vigor - and has never crossed the line to advocate violence against any of them, as evidenced by the famous Hustler v Fallwell US Supreme Court case - which Flynt won on an 8-0 vote.

The same cannot be said about Riehl, on any of these points.

Yes, Flynt is an equal opportunity opportunist.

24 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:37:30am

Ron Finley: Food Forest

25 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:39:20am

While I do think testosterone has a lot to do with it, the concept of responsibility that is taught in the bible (man is the steward of the earth) plays into alot of power fantasies in the sub-conscious minds of men.

To be responsible automatically puts everything/one else subordinate. Those who are subordinate must obey.

26 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:48:25am

re: #22 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Her reconstruction of the events:

[Link: www.talkleft.com...]

27 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:50:08am

re: #25 ggt

While I do think testosterone has a lot to do with it, the concept of responsibility that is taught in the bible (man is the steward of the earth) plays into alot of power fantasies in the sub-conscious minds of men.

To be responsible automatically puts everything/one else subordinate. Those who are subordinate must obey.

I actually logged in just to say this. The Biblical patriarchal culture dominates the conservative sphere. Conservatives aren't just sexist against progressive women; they're just more vocal about it because they feel they can get away with it under the umbrella of "political differences".

28 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:56:03am

Beryl is now fully Tropical. Not only that, but it seems to have developed an eye, and now has Sustained Winds of 65 mph.

Can it get that last 10 mph before landfall? It only has 5-7 hours.

29 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:00:16pm

re: #28 ProGunLiberal

Beryl is now fully Tropical. Not only that, but it seems to have developed an eye, and now has Sustained Winds of 65 mph.

Can it get that last 10 mph before landfall? It only has 5-7 hours.

Just looked at the current prediction track at NOAA. And, to my utter non-surprise, the track has my area in the probability area for Wednesday & Thursday...which is just about when I planned to leave town. Wonderful.

30 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:01:01pm

re: #22 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Just a heads up for those who track the Martin/Zimmerman case - I've just found that Jeralyn at TalkLeft (she's a lawyer IIRC) posts interesting analyses of the evidence.

[Link: www.talkleft.com...]

Thanks for the link!

31 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:03:08pm

re: #29 Targetpractice

Beryl is a beautiful storm right now. It looks like a Hurricane.

32 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:06:00pm

re: #31 ProGunLiberal

Beryl is a beautiful storm right now. It looks like a Hurricane.

Seems the season's started off early and with a roar. That's two storms that have formed up just off the US coastline. Virtually no warning whatsoever.

Think I'm gonna have to start buying supplies either before or after I come back from vacation. People 'round these parts are like vultures when it comes to hurricane preparedness, they'll grab anything that looks like it would be the least bit useful in the event of a sustained loss of utilities, even if they're still overstocked from the last no-show.

33 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:07:29pm

re: #30 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Her conclusions are not positive for the state's case and not very palatable to the "liberal side". However keep in mind that she's both staunchly liberal (her companion blogger Armando is, in fact, a DailyKos frontpage contributor) and a professional crime defense attorney.

34 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:12:01pm

re: #32 Targetpractice

Tropical Cyclones make me go all Doctor Who-ish. You know, when he gets all manic and fascinated?

35 jaunte  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:16:11pm

"Show me a guy who won’t compromise and I’ll show you a guy with rock for brains.”

Alan Simpson: “For heaven’s sake, you have Grover Norquist wandering the earth in his white robes saying that if you raise taxes one penny, he’ll defeat you,” Simpson said on Fareed Zakaria GPS. “He can’t murder you. He can’t burn your house. The only thing he can do to you, as an elected official, is defeat you for reelection. And if that means more to you than your country when we need patriots to come out in a situation when we’re in extremity, you shouldn’t even be in Congress.”

36 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:18:28pm

Ok peeps, tomorrow is BBQ day. Today is bowling! See ya later!

37 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:19:07pm

re: #34 ProGunLiberal

Tropical Cyclones make me go all Doctor Who-ish. You know, when he gets all manic and fascinated?

Haven't found myself declaring "Fantastic!" or "Geronimo!" recently, but there's still time.

38 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:20:30pm

re: #33 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Her conclusions are not positive for the state's case and not very palatable to the "liberal side". However keep in mind that she's both staunchly liberal (her companion blogger Armando is, in fact, a DailyKos frontpage contributor) and a professional crime defense attorney.

The conclusions are about what I expected, namely that the state's case is a wash. The only thing that's gonna save it at pre-trial is a judge deciding that they don't want to be the one who gets burned in effigy for "letting Zimmerman off."

39 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:20:40pm

re: #37 Targetpractice

Beryl looks fantastic!

40 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:21:22pm

The Hurricane Recon flight takes off in 25 minutes.

41 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:24:23pm

re: #38 Targetpractice

The conclusions are about what I expected, namely that the state's case is a wash. The only thing that's gonna save it at pre-trial is a judge deciding that they don't want to be the one who gets burned in effigy for "letting Zimmerman off."

It's starting to look unlikely that the case will make it to trial. This may end with a wrongful prosecution settlement.

42 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:25:04pm

Sato spins, Franchitti comes in first, Dixon second and Kanaan comes in third. I was hoping Kanaan would finish first.

Franchitti has won Indy 500 three times now.

I notice that the top three finishers are all ex-Champ drivers.

43 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:26:36pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

It's starting to look unlikely that the case will make it to trial. This may end with a wrongful prosecution settlement.

Were I GZ, right now I'd be asking my lawyer if there's any precedent for taking ABC behind the woodshed for being at the head front of the lynch mob.

44 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:26:57pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

This may end with a wrongful prosecution settlement.

May I remind you that you were for the indictment regardless? ;)

45 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:28:26pm

re: #43 Targetpractice

Were I GZ, right now I'd be asking my lawyer if there's any precedent for taking ABC behind the woodshed for being at the head front of the lynch mob.

There might be. I think the guy that was suspected of the Olympic Park bombing got a settlement from some media outlets.

46 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:29:39pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

There might be. I think the guy that was suspected of the Olympic Park bombing got a settlement from some media outlets.

True.

47 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:29:47pm

re: #44 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

May I remind you that you were for the indictment regardless? ;)

An innocent kid is dead, and a cop wanna-be will likely walk. The law that helped create the situation should be going to jail and the fools who pressed for it should hang their heads in shame.

48 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:30:44pm

re: #47 Ghost of Insanity

An innocent kid is dead, and a cop wanna-be will likely walk. The law that helped create the situation should be going to jail and the fools who pressed for it should hang their heads in shame.

Note that Jeralyn argues that SYG is pretty much irrelevant.

49 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:30:54pm

re: #44 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

May I remind you that you were for the indictment regardless? ;)

Sad but true. As shitty as this is (if it does indeed end up being a false prosecution) the settlement will be cheaper than the potential damage and loss of life from riots. If this is the case then Zimmerman is entitled to whatever the court awards him.

50 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:33:06pm

re: #47 Ghost of Insanity

An innocent kid is dead, and a cop wanna-be will likely walk. The law that helped create the situation should be going to jail and the fools who pressed for it should hang their heads in shame.

I'd really advise checking the link Sergey posted, particularly this, because it really lays out the case for dismissing the charges. Nothing that can be proven shows Zimmerman did anything illegal that night.

51 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:33:45pm

re: #49 Killgore Trout

Sad but true. As shitty as this is (if it does indeed end up being a false prosecution) the settlement will be cheaper than the potential damage and loss of life from riots. If this is the case then Zimmerman is entitled to whatever the court awards him.

I think Zim should have been arrested immediately (even with all we know I think there are very good grounds for that). The slowness with the arrest is what caused the initial scandal. If the state decided not to charge him afterwards, there still might have been trouble, but not as big as after weeks of waiting, when the appearance of racial injustice was created.

52 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:34:12pm

re: #50 Targetpractice

Unless there is new stuff in the next discovery batch (May 31)...

53 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:36:06pm

re: #50 Targetpractice

I'd really advise checking the link Sergey posted, particularly this, because it really lays out the case for dismissing the charges. Nothing that can be proven shows Zimmerman did anything illegal that night.

I did.
My comment said nothing about legal guilt.

54 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:36:38pm

re: #52 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Unless there is new stuff in the next discovery batch (May 31)...

Plausible, but unlikely. Even if there was something there, the preponderance of evidence seems to weigh in GZ's favor. He's gonna walk, the state is gonna look like fools for indicting on (of all things) Murder 2 charges, and the media's gonna spend days making money off "exclusives."

55 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:38:03pm

re: #51 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I think Zim should have been arrested immediately (even with all we know I think there are very good grounds for that). The slowness with the arrest is what caused the initial scandal. If the state decided not to charge him afterwards, there still might have been trouble, but not as big as after weeks of waiting, when the appearance of racial injustice was created.

They sent proposed charges to the attorney general and they were rejected. There was no way to predict that the media and activists would create such a mess over this. The arrest and charges for Zimmerman looks like a response to the media circus.

56 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:39:52pm

re: #53 Ghost of Insanity

I did.
My comment said nothing about legal guilt.

+1

57 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:40:56pm

re: #51 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I think Zim should have been arrested immediately (even with all we know I think there are very good grounds for that). The slowness with the arrest is what caused the initial scandal. If the state decided not to charge him afterwards, there still might have been trouble, but not as big as after weeks of waiting, when the appearance of racial injustice was created.

That's one of my hopes, that along with the media, the state and local authorities who so badly botched this case get their asses handed to them. An arrest within hours of the shooting would have prevented this media circus, one that no doubt will weigh on the Martin family for years to come.

58 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:41:54pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

They sent proposed charges to the attorney general and they were rejected.

I know. I think this was a mistake even with all we know now.

There was no way to predict that the media and activists would create such a mess over this.

I agree and disagree re: mess. There has, indeed, been lots and lots of biased and inaccurate reporting.

On the other hand I don't think it's a normal situation when a guy who shot another guy under unclear circumstances just walks free, and the authorities do not give a cogent and detailed explanation of why.

The outcry was justified. Inaccurate reporting, not so much.

59 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:43:25pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

There's still plenty of stuff to be concerned about in the way that the police acted; there's still, obviously, the moral guilt of Zimmerman acting like a vigilante and following around a guy. It may not be illegal-- and I think that she might be wrong about SYG not applying, since one of the things SYG did was to remove the need to meet force with proportionate force-- but it's still obviously wrong to try to be a vigilante in the way that Zimmerman did. There was no reason for him to profile Trayvon as a suspected criminal, and his doing so led to the encounter.

60 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:45:19pm

re: #59 Obdicut

I stand by my assertion that Zimmerman's negligent actions should be punished by law. I just don't know whether they are.

61 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:47:16pm

re: #60 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

= punishable.

62 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:47:29pm

re: #60 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I stand by my assertion that Zimmerman's negligent actions should be punished by law. I just don't know whether they are.

I'm fairly sure there's no law that punishes vigilantism of the type he did. It's hard to see how a law could be crafted that'd actually differentiate between someone who was just following someone for no legitimate reason; discerning what 'legitimate is' is hard.

Our society has a large tolerance for vigilantism, and it's unlikely to change anytime soon.

63 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:48:01pm

re: #59 Obdicut

There's still plenty of stuff to be concerned about in the way that the police acted; there's still, obviously, the moral guilt of Zimmerman acting like a vigilante and following around a guy. It may not be illegal-- and I think that she might be wrong about SYG not applying, since one of the things SYG did was to remove the need to meet force with proportionate force-- but it's still obviously wrong to try to be a vigilante in the way that Zimmerman did. There was no reason for him to profile Trayvon as a suspected criminal, and his doing so led to the encounter.

We have a series of burglaries in the local neighborhood, which had been serious enough that a watch was created that had the approval and support of the SPD. The members of it had been advised to report suspicious activity, which from all appearances GZ thought he was doing. It could be argued, I'd have to agree, that he was overzealous in his actions. But I'm not going to argue that I know what the man was thinking that night.

64 kirkspencer  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:50:30pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

They sent proposed charges to the attorney general and they were rejected. There was no way to predict that the media and activists would create such a mess over this. The arrest and charges for Zimmerman looks like a response to the media circus.

Not quite. They didn't have time to send the proposed charges. Instead, an assistant attorney general came to the station in the dark hours of that morning, and the charges were rejected at that point.

That was one of several things that had everyone ratcheted up about this. It gave a whiff of something malodorous.

65 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:51:16pm

re: #63 Targetpractice

It shows a lack of wisdom on the part of the cops letting someone like Zimmerman be a 'neighborhood watch' guy, definitely. But I don't think that absolves him of responsibility of his behavior, as well. If you get out of your car with a gun to follow someone, you're automatically bringing up the possibility of an armed conflict-- especially if the standard is now that if you're getting beaten up you can kill the other person.

66 kirkspencer  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:51:38pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

They sent proposed charges to the attorney general and they were rejected. There was no way to predict that the media and activists would create such a mess over this. The arrest and charges for Zimmerman looks like a response to the media circus.

Not quite. They didn't have time to send the proposed charges. Instead, an assistant attorney general came to the station in the dark hours of that morning, and the charges were rejected at that point.

That was one of several things that had everyone ratcheted up about this. It gave a whiff of something malodorous.

67 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:53:00pm

re: #54 Targetpractice

Plausible, but unlikely. Even if there was something there, the preponderance of evidence seems to weigh in GZ's favor. He's gonna walk, the state is gonna look like fools for indicting on (of all things) Murder 2 charges, and the media's gonna spend days making money off "exclusives."

The more this drags on, the more I see parallels with the OJ cases. In both cases, police and prosecutorial fuckups (along with, in this case, FL's insane SYG law) are going to wind up setting a killer free; at this point, the DoJ investigation is still just a red herring. The only real legal remedy and relief that I can see happening in this case is a civil trial, just like with OJ; hopefully, this is a option that the Martin family can use to make GZ a pauper for the rest of his natural life.

If that bastard Zimmerman can't have his freedom taken away for what I consider to be a wrongful death, let him lose every penny he's ever going to make for the rest of his life.

68 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:53:37pm

re: #65 Obdicut

It shows a lack of wisdom on the part of the cops letting someone like Zimmerman be a 'neighborhood watch' guy, definitely. But I don't think that absolves him of responsibility of his behavior, as well. If you get out of your car with a gun to follow someone, you're automatically bringing up the possibility of an armed conflict-- especially if the standard is now that if you're getting beaten up you can kill the other person.

I remain convinced that getting out of his car was a bad call on his part, one that was in violation of the teachings of most neighborhood watches (namely: Do Not Pursue). Like I said, I admit his actions were overzealous and show a man with an impulse control problem.

69 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:54:51pm

re: #64 kirkspencer

Not quite. They didn't have time to send the proposed charges. Instead, an assistant attorney general came to the station in the dark hours of that morning, and the charges were rejected at that point.

Ah, thanks for refreshing my memory. That sounds right. As I recall the charges were rejected for lack of evidence. It's entirely possible the asst. AG made the correct decision.

That was one of several things that had everyone ratcheted up about this. It gave a whiff of something malodorous.

I'm not so sure that can be blamed on the police or the AG who may have made the correct decision. Perhaps the blame belongs with the people who ratcheted up the rhetoric and smelled things that weren't there.

70 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:55:16pm

re: #67 Gitarzan

The more this drags on, the more I see parallels with the OJ cases. In both cases, police and prosecutorial fuckups (along with, in this case, FL's insane SYG law) are going to wind up setting a killer free; at this point, the DoJ investigation is still just a red herring. The only real legal remedy and relief that I can see happening in this case is a civil trial, just like with OJ; hopefully, this is a option that the Martin family can use to make GZ a pauper for the rest of his natural life.

If that bastard Zimmerman can't have his freedom taken away for what I consider to be a wrongful death, let him lose every penny he's ever going to make for the rest of his life.

IIRC, SYG prevents civil charges in the event that a case is ruled to have been self-defense at pre-trial. If the judge rules as such, then the Martins can't even sue him for wrongful death in a civil case.

71 gwangung  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:56:45pm

re: #70 Targetpractice

IIRC, SYG prevents civil charges in the event that a case is ruled to have been self-defense at pre-trial. If the judge rules as such, then the Martins can't even sue him for wrongful death in a civil case.

I really object to this.

72 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:57:02pm

re: #51 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I think Zim should have been arrested immediately (even with all we know I think there are very good grounds for that). The slowness with the arrest is what caused the initial scandal. If the state decided not to charge him afterwards, there still might have been trouble, but not as big as after weeks of waiting, when the appearance reality of racial injustice was createdwas shown.

Fixed that for you. The local yokels did their job and left the state without evidence so a murderer will walk.

73 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:57:10pm

re: #71 gwangung

I really object to this.

As do I, which is why I continue to maintain that the whole SYG law needs to go.

74 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:57:57pm

re: #69 Killgore Trout

I'm not so sure that can be blamed on the police or the AG who may have made the correct decision. Perhaps the blame belongs with the people who ratcheted up the rhetoric and smelled things that weren't there.

Even assuming most of your premises, the simple fact is that the police was not open enough about whatever evidence they had and the mechanics of the decisions they made. So before you blame those who smelled things that weren't there, blame the police for shitty informing of the general population about a very explosive case.

75 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:58:08pm

re: #70 Targetpractice

IIRC, SYG prevents civil charges in the event that a case is ruled to have been self-defense at pre-trial. If the judge rules as such, then the Martins can't even sue him for wrongful death in a civil case.

Also, I think that unless there's some evidence that Zimmerman initiated the the physical confrontation (attacking Trayvon) there's no chance of wining a civil or criminal trial. So far the evidence seems to indicate Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. It was self defense.

76 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 12:59:14pm

re: #72 William Barnett-Lewis

Fixed that for you. The local yokels did their job and left the state without evidence so a murder will walk.

There's plenty of evidence.

77 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:00:12pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

Also, I think that unless there's some evidence that Zimmerman initiated the the physical confrontation (attacking Trayvon) there's no chance of wining a civil or criminal trial. So far the evidence seems to indicate Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. It was self defense.

Which is, in large part, why she wonders aloud if defense will actually try to get this case tossed at pre-trial or decide to argue it before a jury. Go for pre-trial, it's a gamble on whether the judge will agree to toss, but it also avoids future civil problems for Zimmerman. Go before a jury, it's almost a slam-dunk acquittal, but also means Zimmerman will face civil charges.

78 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:00:20pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

Also, I think that unless there's some evidence that Zimmerman initiated the the physical confrontation (attacking Trayvon) there's no chance of wining a civil or criminal trial. So far the evidence seems to indicate Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. It was self defense.

Why? Someone with a gun is chasing you down and his self defense is legal but your unarmed defense isn't? Oh, I get it, his is legal cause you're dead and can't contradict his story.

79 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:00:52pm

re: #76 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

There's plenty of evidence.

All tainted by the actions of that narcotics detective.

80 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:01:25pm

re: #78 William Barnett-Lewis

Why? Someone with a gun is chasing you down and his self defense is legal but your unarmed defense isn't? Oh, I get it, his is legal cause you're dead and can't contradict his story.

You know for a fact that Zimmerman threw the first punch, or that Trayvon did but only did so because he felt his life was in danger?

81 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:01:45pm

re: #79 William Barnett-Lewis

All tainted by the actions of that narcotics detective.

Does anybody in the case allege tainting of evidence?

82 researchok  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:04:42pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

The reality remains that Obdi's point is well taken- there is a culture of vigilantism and as such, there will always be an 'us v them' mindset.

When things go very wrong as they did here, there will always be those who will condone or accept the notion of 'legal vigilantism' (Make My Day or Stand Your Ground') laws which are really cultural responses to crime or the fear of crime.

Laws cannot legislate culture or attitudes.

83 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:04:45pm

re: #81 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Does anybody in the case allege tainting of evidence?

Some witnesses claimed that their statements weren't fully taken or that they were 'corrected'. It may be, from the thing you linked, they were also the least reliable, but if that's true it's not good, no matter what the facts of the case are.

84 kirkspencer  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:07:09pm

re: #69 Killgore Trout

Ah, thanks for refreshing my memory. That sounds right. As I recall the charges were rejected for lack of evidence. It's entirely possible the asst. AG made the correct decision.

It's possible. On the other hand not all the evidence was yet in AND the lead investigator was recommending charges.

I'm not so sure that can be blamed on the police or the AG who may have made the correct decision. Perhaps the blame belongs with the people who ratcheted up the rhetoric and smelled things that weren't there.

Full disagreement here. The AAG acted atypically. He came to the station instead of waiting for the case to come to his office, and he did so pre-dawn. Add that to the fact that the decision was made before evidence collection was completed and it becomes reason to believe something was done incorrectly.

85 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:07:54pm

re: #83 Obdicut

Some witnesses claimed that their statements weren't fully taken or that they were 'corrected'. It may be, from the thing you linked, they were also the least reliable, but if that's true it's not good, no matter what the facts of the case are.

Granted. That's still not "all evidence". Not even close.

86 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:08:36pm

re: #83 Obdicut

Some witnesses claimed that their statements weren't fully taken or that they were 'corrected'. It may be, from the thing you linked, they were also the least reliable, but if that's true it's not good, no matter what the facts of the case are.

I'd say that the SPD's actions in this case should be put under local or state review, with those found negligent in their actions punished as appropriate. I find it likely that how the case would shake out in light of SYG was probably a motivating factor in how it was handled, but absent an unbiased review, that's not conclusive.

87 kirkspencer  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:10:09pm

Technical aside. Charles, #66 kirkspencer is a double-post. My system is being wonky and locked up after the first (64), so I sent the second. Feel free to delete on as well as this. Thanks.

88 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:12:53pm

An interesting observation from another posting:

[Link: www.talkleft.com...]

There is abundant case law in Florida that an impulsive overreaction to an attack or injury is insufficient to prove ill will, hatred, spite, or evil intent. Even extremely reckless behavior, by itself, is insufficient from which to infer any malice.

And, while exceptions exist, second-degree murder usually applies when the defendant and victim knew each other prior to the killing, allowing time for enmity to develop. As many Florida decisions have held, "Hatred, spite, evil intent, or ill will usually require more than an instant to develop."

89 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:17:48pm

And while I had a positive impression of Angela Corey at first, it seems she's not all that "good":

Cristian Fernandez case
In 2011 Corey's office oversaw a case in which 12-year-old Cristian Fernandez was accused of killing his two-year-old brother. Corey sought and received a grand jury indictment of Fernandez on charges of homicide and aggravated child abuse, and decided to try him as an adult.[14] This move, which made Fernandez the youngest person ever to face a murder charge in Jacksonville's history, drew criticism and protests to send the case to juvenile court instead,[15] but Corey held that the juvenile system was inadequate to handle a crime of this magnitude.[16] However, Corey stated she did not intend for Fernandez to stand trial or serve a life sentence, but would rather accept a plea deal.[17] As of February 1, 2012 the defense and prosecution had not agreed to a plea deal, but were still in discussion. A trial was scheduled for February 27, 2012, but was postponed until September 10, 2012.[18][19]

[...]

Marissa Alexander case
In May 2012, Angela Corey prosecuted 31-year-old Marissa Alexander and obtained a mandatory minimum sentence of 20 years in prison after Alexander fired a gun in the direction of her abusive husband, a man who admitted to past incidents of domestic violence, including a 2009 incident that put Alexander in the hospital.[27] Alexander had no prior criminal record and possessed a court-issued protective order against her husband at the time of the attack. She was first offered a plea bargain of a 3 year sentence. Upon turning it down, she was prosecuted by Corey resulting in a conviction and sentence that has been called harsh.[28] Critics of the prosecution include U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown who accused Corey of being overzealous,[29] and labeled the case “institutional racism.”

90 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:19:43pm

I know there's still a lot of emotion wrapped up in this case, and I think what it comes down to is we can't let go of that initial impression we built of Trayvon in our minds. The first couple weeks of media coverage made us all picture this good student and athlete who'd run afoul at school and was on suspension for something that was perfectly understandable. It was why many of us (myself included) wanted to ignore things like the jewelry, the screwdriver, and the reports of an empty baggie.

In light of that, I think we all have to stop and admit to ourselves that the media misled us about who Trayvon really was, gave us this fictional character in our minds that we played through a scenario that "seemed right." We don't want to let that character go because we've got so much emotion invested in him, a need to believe that he's real and that he's the victim. Don't want to admit that he might not have been a model student, might have been running with the wrong crowd, might have been actually been the kind of kid who'd punch a perfect stranger in order to gain street cred.

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:21:30pm

re: #90 Targetpractice

I can't let go of the fact that Florida is a scary place full of backwards laws


glad I don't live there!

92 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:22:27pm

re: #91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

Yes, all the human fuckups are not helped by the numerous lawmakers' fuckups and the screwed justice system.

93 Interesting Times  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:24:37pm

re: #91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

I can't let go of the fact that Florida is a scary place full of backwards laws

And shitbag governors who happily steal voting rights from lawful citizens:

In short, an excess of 20 percent of the voters flagged as “non-citizens” in Miami-Dade are, in fact, citizens. And the actual number may be much higher.

An analysis of the state-wide list by the Miami Herald found that “Hispanic, Democratic and independent-minded voters are the most likely to be targeted” as ineligible by the list. Conversely, “whites and Republicans are disproportionately the least-likely to face the threat of removal.”

#historyRhymes

94 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:25:25pm

For some reason after return from vacation some pages just stop loading before they're complete. Not only LGF, but LGF specifically. This fucks up javascript. I'm trying to do something with Chrome "inspect element" tools but no luck so far. No idea whether my internet connection has been partially fucked up or whether my system is fucked up. Anybody had that problem?

95 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:27:37pm

re: #91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

I can't let go of the fact that Florida is a scary place full of backwards laws

glad I don't live there!

Florida's the kinda fucked-up state that people in the other 49 look at and go "Thank God that's not us!" Half the state still hums the Battle Hymn of the Republic, while the other half competes for the title of "Northern Cuba" or "Southern New York."

96 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:27:53pm

re: #93 Interesting Times

Florida would be the state I would be the least surprised to learn was housing internment camps

97 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:28:06pm

I'm disgusted by the existence of a law that encourages disproportionate responses and even more disgusted by the groups responsible for creating the illusory perception that such a law is needed to reduce an equally illusory perception of violent crime.

98 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:28:59pm

re: #97 Ghost of Insanity

I'm disgusted by the existence of a law that encourages disproportionate responses and even more disgusted by the groups responsible for creating the illusory perception that such a law is needed to reduce an equally illusory perception of violent crime.

Ah, the NRA. "We promise we're not white supremacists, but we sure will take their money!"

99 dragonfire1981  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:29:38pm

re: #93 Interesting Times

And shitbag governors who happily steal voting rights from lawful citizens:

#historyRhymes

Now let's imagine it was a Democratic governor doing the same thing with Republican leaning voters and think about what the reaction would be.

Once again: Remember kids, it's only bad if a Liberal does it.

100 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:29:44pm
101 dragonfire1981  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:30:35pm

I just got a phone call and the ID read REPUB NAT COM.

I was really tempted to answer it and pretend to be an answering machine for a gay bar.

102 Interesting Times  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:32:21pm

The argument:

The evidence:

QED.

103 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:32:31pm

re: #94 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I've had flash corrupt chrome because of multiple flash installs? No idea, I just remember having to reinstall both flash and chrome, what a pain

104 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:32:45pm

re: #93 Interesting Times

And shitbag governors who happily steal voting rights from lawful citizens:

#historyRhymes

Yeah, I remember a few wingnuts pointing to the reports of "thousands of undead voters" on Florida's rolls as being proof that Voter ID laws are desperately needed.

Funny how they're now silent as more and more perfectly legal voters accuse the state of stripping away their voting rights.

105 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:34:18pm

re: #103 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

Other browsers also refuse to behave, I'm suspecting a corrupt dll somewhere, I'm just wondering if there are any tools to diagnose this.

106 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:35:56pm

Oh, Beryl is going to be so close to Hurricane Strength.

If it can manage that last little 10mph, it will be the first US Hurricane Landfall since 2008 (Hurricane Ike was the last), the first Hurricane Landfall for Florida since 2005 (Hurricane Wilma), the first Hurricane since 1964 to make landfall in NE Florida (Hurricane Dora), and the first landfalling May Hurricane since 1908 (Hurricane #2)

And, of course, the first May Hurricane since 1970. (Hurricane Alma)

107 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:36:08pm

re: #100 Ghost of Insanity

I blame Horatio Caine.

re: #101 dragonfire1981

I just got a phone call and the ID read REPUB NAT COM.

I was really tempted to answer it and pretend to be an answering machine for a gay bar.

The Blue Oyster Bar? That would be funny, especially if you had the music playing in the background...


///
108 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:36:50pm

re: #99 dragonfire1981

Now let's imagine it was a Democratic governor doing the same thing with Republican leaning voters and think about what the reaction would be.

Once again: Remember kids, it's only bad if a Liberal does it.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

109 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:47:41pm
110 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:52:00pm

Game called on account of buddy having car troubles. Man, I was all set to kick his ass.

111 researchok  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:52:19pm

Two brothers sentenced to death in separate states

Rodney Berget lives in a single cell on South Dakota's death row, rarely leaving the tiny room where he awaits execution for bludgeoning a prison guard to death with a pipe during an attempted escape.

For Berget's immediate family, his fate is somewhat familiar. He is the second member of the clan to be sentenced to death. His older brother was convicted in 1987 of killing a man for his car. Roger Berget spent 13 years on Oklahoma's death row until his execution in 2000 at age 39.

112 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:53:11pm

Speaking of Memorial Day, I thought this blog article by Charlie Pierce was great:

Loving the Warrior, Hating the Wars: Our Memorial Daze

It's way too long to accurately quote, and a summation wouldn't do it justice. So I just ask folks to have a look for themselves, because I think it best portrays my views on Memorial Day, vets both present and past, and how we'll look at things going forward.

113 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:55:44pm

My Grandparents live in Deltona, Florida.

They are going to have a fun night.

114 researchok  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:55:51pm

re: #112 Targetpractice

Great piece.

You ought to page that.

115 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 1:56:47pm

re: #105 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Other browsers also refuse to behave, I'm suspecting a corrupt dll somewhere, I'm just wondering if there are any tools to diagnose this.

If it's in Windows, sfc.exe will check all your system files but only system files.

116 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 2:08:43pm

Sergey, if it's Windows, check the HDD for errors and then defrag it. Sometimes the move from a semi-bad cluster to a good cluster is enough to correct errors.

117 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 2:09:56pm

re: #116 Ghost of Insanity

Thanks for all the advice. Running sfc now.

118 abolitionist  Sun, May 27, 2012 2:11:07pm

re: #105 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Other browsers also refuse to behave, I'm suspecting a corrupt dll somewhere, I'm just wondering if there are any tools to diagnose this.

Assuming Vista or Win7, you may possibly get some clues via the Event Viewer. Click Start, type "event" (without quotes) in the search bar, and then click on "Event Viewer". You'll need admin privilege, I think.

119 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 2:22:26pm

Surface winds of 62 knots have been found in Beryl by the Hurricane Hunters.

120 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, May 27, 2012 2:23:04pm

I broke 100 bowling. This is a BIG THING for me. Forward!

121 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 2:24:02pm

re: #120 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

I broke 100 bowling. This is a BIG THING for me. Forward!

I assume there are now only 99 bottles of beer on the wall.

122 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, May 27, 2012 2:29:20pm

re: #121 Ghost of Insanity

I assume there are now only 99 bottles of beer on the wall.

Let's just say I'm taking a break. Next hr begins in 10.

123 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 2:30:58pm

OK, so sfc found some damaged files and says I should look for the results in a log file. The log file is 22 megabytes. What am I supposed to look for? There doesn't seem to be a handy summary at the end of the file.

124 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 2:36:42pm

re: #123 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

OK, so sfc found some damaged files and says I should look for the results in a log file. The log file is 22 megabytes. What am I supposed to look for? There doesn't seem to be a handy summary at the end of the file.

sfc should have replaced the damaged files so looking in the log file is a waste of time.

125 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 2:37:37pm

re: #124 Ghost of Insanity

Well it says it can't replace some and points to the file.

126 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 2:39:35pm

re: #125 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Well it says it can't replace some and points to the file.

Did it ask for the install disk?

Do a search on 'fail' inside the file.

127 b_sharp  Sun, May 27, 2012 2:43:42pm

Oh, shit;

Sergey, did the system reboot before it ran sfc?

If not, you'll have to run sfc in administrator mode.

128 compound_Idaho  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:07:05pm

re: #104 Targetpractice

Yeah, I remember a few wingnuts pointing to the reports of "thousands of undead voters" on Florida's rolls as being proof that Voter ID laws are desperately needed.

Funny how they're now silent as more and more perfectly legal voters accuse the state of stripping away their voting rights.

A good voter ID system would protect those voters and improve confidence in the overall system. The system we have now is pretty weak on both.

129 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:08:39pm

Maybe Riehl is just cleverly picking up where Limbaugh left off. Limbaugh had to back off due to advertiser defections. But Riehl doesn't have such worries, and he realizes that Limbaugh's comments were very popular with his conservative audience, so why not pick up the same line of rhetoric and run with it?

Riehl is a bottom feeding lying extremist ideologue, and a racist too, certainly no better than Breitbart, Malkin, et al. He's clearly got problems with women and blacks, both of whom make him exhibit defensive, paranoid and violent fantasies. He's not the future, he's the past.

130 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:16:30pm

re: #128 compound_Idaho

A good voter ID system would protect those voters and improve confidence in the overall system. The system we have now is pretty weak on both.

Current Voter ID efforts are a "solution" to a problem that, from all appearances, doesn't exist. Or at least doesn't exist in such quantity that the proposed "solutions" are justified. There's cases aplenty in states that have passed such laws of lawful US citizens being stripped of their voting rights due to inability to meet new requirements, inability to afford the IDs, or lack of access because the places issuing them are few and far between.

131 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:18:19pm

re: #63 Targetpractice

We have a series of burglaries in the local neighborhood, which had been serious enough that a watch was created that had the approval and support of the SPD. The members of it had been advised to report suspicious activity, which from all appearances GZ thought he was doing. It could be argued, I'd have to agree, that he was overzealous in his actions. But I'm not going to argue that I know what the man was thinking that night.

Funny how so many are concerned with what GZ was thinking that night. Does anyone care what TM was thinking that night...such as, why am I being followed at night by someone I don't know when I've committed no crime?

132 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:21:46pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

There might be. I think the guy that was suspected of the Olympic Park bombing got a settlement from some media outlets.

Terrible comparison. That guy had nothing to do with the bombing and the death that resulted. I think even the Zim defenders have to admit that his actions had an effect on Trayvon getting killed that night. Vigilantism isn't a game; it may work well in the movies, but not in real life.

133 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:22:00pm

re: #131 palomino

Funny how so many are concerned with what GZ was thinking that night. Does anyone care what TM was thinking that night...such as, why am I being followed at night by someone I don't know when I've committed no crime?

If he truly felt threatened so much, why not just continue home after Zimmerman stopped following him? Why did he feel the need to confront? And why, after he had Zimmerman on the ground, broken nose and bloody head, continue to beat Zimmerman black and blue after an onlooker had called on him to stop?

134 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:23:39pm

re: #11 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Also, it's the matter of context. Basically, Hustler is where one can expect to see such a sort of thing. It's not a political tribune.

Well, it's entirely fine to cal Hustler nasty and Larry Flynt an ass for publishing that fake pic (Flynt escapes the being labeled 'rotten' because the fake had a clear disclaimer on the same page). But if you're going to do that you have to be consistent and honest: What Flynt did was ugly, but Dan Reihl's actions were and are worse; For Reihl acts with malice only once shown by Flynt (Flynt's going after George W. Bush's daughter Jenna was Flynt's one time sinking to Reihl's level).

135 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:29:55pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

My point is, nobody looks up to Hustler for political commentary, and nobody expects such ugliness from a political commentator (well, we do, but we shouldn't). What Hustler does is bad, but unless Riehl agrees that he should be judged by Hustler's low standards, it's neither here, nor there.

136 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:30:04pm

re: #133 Targetpractice

If he truly felt threatened so much, why not just continue home after Zimmerman stopped following him? Why did he feel the need to confront? And why, after he had Zimmerman on the ground, broken nose and bloody head, continue to beat Zimmerman black and blue after an onlooker had called on him to stop?

Does TM have no right to stand his ground?

Maybe he responded in such a way because he saw a stranger following him at night for no reason and was justifiably concerned about his own safety. And maybe he was afraid the pursuer had a gun, or even saw that gun.

I simply don't understand the fervent defenses of Zim. Rational, sane, law abiding people don't follow people and pursue them with firearms when they haven't even seen the person commit a crime. Real simple: if Zim stays in car, as any responsible person would have done, none of this happens.

137 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:30:51pm

re: #132 palomino

Terrible comparison. That guy had nothing to do with the bombing and the death that resulted. I think even the Zim defenders have to admit that his actions had an effect on Trayvon getting killed that night. Vigilantism isn't a game; it may work well in the movies, but not in real life.

Actually, Richard Jewell did have something to do with it: He saw the IED and got a number of people away from it before it detonated. Without Jewell's prompt 'left-of-BOOM' (to use JIEDDO's term) actions, the death toll would have been a good deal worse.

George Zimmerman, by contrast, shot and killed an unarmed teenager on his way home from buying a snack. His actions were not at all praiseworthy, and it seems clear to me that Zimmerman himself knows it.

138 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:33:53pm

re: #136 palomino

Does TM have no right to stand his ground?

If he had no need to confront, why did he?

Maybe he responded in such a way because he saw a stranger following him at night for no reason and was justifiably concerned about his own safety. And maybe he was afraid the pursuer had a gun, or even saw that gun.

A rational, sane, law-abiding person (your standard) would knowingly confront a person they don't know, believe/know to be armed, instead of continuing to flee?

I simply don't understand the fervent defenses of Zim. Rational, sane, law abiding people don't follow people and pursue them with firearms when they haven't even seen the person commit a crime. Real simple: if Zim stays in car, as any responsible person would have done, none of this happens.

And if Martin had continued on to his house after Zimmerman had ceased pursuing him, he'd still be alive.

There were two sides to this altercation. Zimmerman's bad choices do not nullify Martin's.

139 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:36:36pm

re: #136 palomino

Does TM have no right to stand his ground?

Maybe he responded in such a way because he saw a stranger following him at night for no reason and was justifiably concerned about his own safety. And maybe he was afraid the pursuer had a gun, or even saw that gun.

I simply don't understand the fervent defenses of Zim. Rational, sane, law abiding people don't follow people and pursue them with firearms when they haven't even seen the person commit a crime. Real simple: if Zim stays in car, as any responsible person would have done, none of this happens.

That's the hell of the thing: As SYG had been written, if Trayvon had snapped Zimmerman's neck, he would have been legally able to invoke SYG himself. That's why the law needs to be amended: It potentially shields either party to a fight in the dark like that, provided that one party dies, that is. (If both parties survive, then matters shift sharply towards the more credible party.)

140 blueraven  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:37:51pm

re: #138 Targetpractice

If he had no need to confront, why did he?

A rational, sane, law-abiding person (your standard) would knowingly confront a person they don't know, believe/know to be armed, instead of continuing to flee?

And if Martin had continued on to his house after Zimmerman had ceased pursuing him, he'd still be alive.

There were two sides to this altercation. Zimmerman's bad choices do not nullify Martin's.

How do you know that Zimmerman "ceased pursuing him"?
Has that been established as fact?

141 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:40:18pm

re: #138 Targetpractice

If he had no need to confront, why did he?

A rational, sane, law-abiding person (your standard) would knowingly confront a person they don't know, believe/know to be armed, instead of continuing to flee?

And if Martin had continued on to his house after Zimmerman had ceased pursuing him, he'd still be alive.

There were two sides to this altercation. Zimmerman's bad choices do not nullify Martin's.

Are you sure that it went down just as you describe? Aren't there conflicting witness accounts as well as evidence not released thus far?

What's your standard for a sane person who exits his vehicle with a gun in order to pursue, in wannabe cop fashion, someone he has seen commit nothing criminal?

Yes, there were two sides to the altercation. But Zimmerman set the whole thing in motion by trying to play police officer.

142 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:42:17pm

re: #140 blueraven

How do you know that Zimmerman "ceased pursuing him"?
Has that been established as fact?

No evidence that contradicts Zimmerman's statement that he was returning to his vehicle when he was confronted. Even the girlfriend, DeeDee, says that it was Trayvon who initiated the confrontation.

143 researchok  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:43:35pm
144 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:47:18pm

re: #141 palomino

Are you sure that it went down just as you describe? Aren't there conflicting witness accounts as well as evidence not released thus far?

You can check the blog Sergey linked to above, the witnesses who "contradict" are at best second-hand and at worst unreliable. The Teacher who claims the cops "corrected" her, is shown in the evidence as being unreliable.

What's your standard for a sane person who exits his vehicle with a gun in order to pursue, in wannabe cop fashion, someone he has seen commit nothing criminal?

That it was stupid but otherwise not illegal.

Yes, there were two sides to the altercation. But Zimmerman set the whole thing in motion by trying to play police officer.

So you admit there's two sides, two sets of decisions, in this case...but then choose to ignore one half to focus on the other. I'll be honest, that's emotional, not rational.

145 blueraven  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:48:21pm

re: #142 Targetpractice

No evidence that contradicts Zimmerman's statement that he was returning to his vehicle when he was confronted. Even the girlfriend, DeeDee, says that it was Trayvon who initiated the confrontation.

You do not know all the evidence.
Where does DeeDee say Trayvon initiated the confrontation?

146 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:50:43pm

re: #145 blueraven

You do not know all the evidence.

True, another round of evidence from discovery is supposed to be released on Thursday, but the state's filed to have it sealed.

Where does Dee Dee say Trayvon initiated the confrontation?

In her own testimony, which was released with the last round of discovery.

147 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:51:56pm

re: #144 Targetpractice

You can check the blog Sergey linked to above, the witnesses who "contradict" are at best second-hand and at worst unreliable. The Teacher who claims the cops "corrected" her, is shown in the evidence as being unreliable.

That it was stupid but otherwise not illegal.

So you admit there's two sides, two sets of decisions, in this case...but then choose to ignore one half to focus on the other. I'll be honest, that's emotional, not rational.

It's not rational to put the onus on someone who pursues a kid for no reason, and then exits his car with a loaded gun because he wants to play cop?

I'd suggest that your response is emotional as well. You haven't seen all the evidence but have decided that it was really TM who instigated this, and you seem to be unwilling to look at it from his perspective, only from Zimmerman's. Does it not trouble you that Zim is now a right wing hero, getting donations for his legal defense fund because so many people identify with him?

148 blueraven  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:52:54pm

re: #144 Targetpractice

You can check the blog Sergey linked to above, the witnesses who "contradict" are at best second-hand and at worst unreliable. The Teacher who claims the cops "corrected" her, is shown in the evidence as being unreliable.

That it was stupid but otherwise not illegal.

So you admit there's two sides, two sets of decisions, in this case...but then choose to ignore one half to focus on the other. I'll be honest, that's emotional, not rational.

Two sides, sure. Like any tale. But unfortunately Travyon's story cant be told due to the actions of Zimmerman.
You should stop trying to tell Trayvon's side and let all the evidence play out.

149 blueraven  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:54:43pm

re: #146 Targetpractice

True, another round of evidence from discovery is supposed to be released on Thursday, but the state's filed to have it sealed.

In her own testimony, which was released with the last round of discovery.

You must of heard something different than I did. I heard no such thing in her statement.

150 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:55:23pm

re: #146 Targetpractice

True, another round of evidence from discovery is supposed to be released on Thursday, but the state's filed to have it sealed.

In her own testimony, which was released with the last round of discovery.

Perhaps for the best: This case has emotions running hot, and I can see ways that some evidence, presented out-of-context, could well ignite a conflagration. Trayvon Martin was not, we should remember, from Sanford; He was from Miami, which has seen race riots in the not-too-distant past, a fact that I'm sure the prosecutor and the governor do think about (as well they should).

151 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:56:30pm

re: #149 blueraven

You must of heard something different than I did. I heard no such thing in her statement.

People hear what they want to. Once you've decided to defend Zimmerman, you have to filter a lot out.

152 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:56:57pm

re: #138 Targetpractice

If he had no need to confront, why did he?

A rational, sane, law-abiding person (your standard) would knowingly confront a person they don't know, believe/know to be armed, instead of continuing to flee?

And if Martin had continued on to his house after Zimmerman had ceased pursuing him, he'd still be alive.

There were two sides to this altercation. Zimmerman's bad choices do not nullify Martin's.

There seems to be something left out of most everyone's analysis of what happened between GZ and TM that fateful night and, IMO, it's something that very important when attempting to assign responsibility for what actions occurred.

Trayvon Martin was and is forever a 17-year-old kid, a freaking kid; kids don't always make the best decisions under the best of situations, never mind the situation that TM found himself thrown into with GZ stalking him down in his own neighborhood.

George Zimmerman is a grown-ass man, an adult, someone was old enough have known better, but with his history and his tendencies, it was only a matter of time before he took his violence to the next level IMO.

Even if Trayvon did throw the first punch, I can't fault him much for that, given how GZ was stalking him in his own neighborhood; unfortunately, he brought fists to a gunfight and GZ held the winning hand.

It's long been said that history is written by the victor; without TM being alive to tell his side of the story, it's up to whatever evidence was left to tell it for him (that wasn't botched by the Sanford PD, that is).

153 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:01:05pm

re: #147 palomino

It's not rational to put the onus on someone who pursues a kid for no reason, and then exits his car with a loaded gun because he wants to play cop?

Not to the point of disregarding the other side's actions. If Zimmerman had ceased pursuit, had begun to return to his vehicle, Martin had no reason to confront him. At least no rational ones.

I'd suggest that your response is emotional as well. You haven't seen all the evidence but have decided that it was really TM who instigated this, and you seem to be unwilling to look at it from his perspective, only from Zimmerman's. Does it not trouble you that Zim is now a right wing hero, getting donations for his legal defense fund because so many people identify with him?

No, it doesn't, because that's not legally relevant. What's legally relevant is that no evidence released so far (and yes, more is coming if the state doesn't have it sealed) contradicts Zimmerman's version of events prior to the scuffle beginning.

154 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:01:36pm

re: #152 Gitarzan

Well said. The gun guy beat the Skittles guy, and yet so many people (especially those who erroneously see an epidemic of black-on-white hate crimes) defend Zimmerman to the point of making him a hero.

I don't see any heroes here. I see a kid who may have felt scared, and may have made a dumb decision. I also see an armed adult who we know made dumb decisions before Trayvon did anything illegal.

155 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:03:04pm

re: #148 blueraven

Two sides, sure. Like any tale. But unfortunately Travyon's story cant be told due to the actions of Zimmerman.
You should stop trying to tell Trayvon's side and let all the evidence play out.

Is the lack of all the evidence stopping calls for Zimmerman's head for the high crime of leaving his car?

156 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:07:13pm

re: #155 Targetpractice

Is the lack of all the evidence stopping calls for Zimmerman's head for the high crime of leaving his car?

Getting out of his car to pursue Martin didn't nullify 'Stand Your Ground', but it should have, and the law should be amended to that effect. Heading into danger like that is only justified if the life of another person is at risk.

157 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:07:43pm

re: #149 blueraven

You must of heard something different than I did. I heard no such thing in her statement.

In her testimony, Martin told her he was close to home, even as she was calling on him to keep running. Then gets unclear as to what he was doing just before he starts questioning Zimmerman.

158 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:09:28pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

SYG seems irrelevant at this stage. Yes, GZ can invoke it, but if it doesn't pass, he will simply plead self-defense.

159 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:09:33pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

Getting out of his car to pursue Martin didn't nullify 'Stand Your Ground', but it should have, and the law should be amended to that effect. Heading into danger like that is only justified if the life of another person is at risk.

If Zimmerman had ceased pursuit and was confronted returning to his vehicle, then was he still "heading into danger"?

160 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:10:08pm

re: #153 Targetpractice

Not to the point of disregarding the other side's actions. If Zimmerman had ceased pursuit, had begun to return to his vehicle, Martin had no reason to confront him. At least no rational ones.

No, it doesn't, because that's not legally relevant. What's legally relevant is that no evidence released so far (and yes, more is coming if the state doesn't have it sealed) contradicts Zimmerman's version of events prior to the scuffle beginning.

We're not talking in purely legal terms here. There's a moral dimension that dominates these conversation, whether people want to admit it or not. You may be right that under the law he will walk. But we don't know all the evidence, and the FL law is murky and bizarre on this issue.

But there's also a question of responsible, moral, intelligent behavior. Zim flunks on all three counts. That's why it's impossible for me to see Zim as hero or victim. He instigated it, he was packing heat, following a kid for no reason except that in his mind he imagined something suspicious. We know he was wrong, since the kid was walking home with stuff from 7-11. We don't need vigilantes, and we sure as hell don't need to glorify them, as much of the right is currently doing.

161 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:11:57pm

re: #160 palomino

We're not talking in purely legal terms here. There's a moral dimension that dominates these conversation, whether people want to admit it or not. You may be right that under the law he will walk. But we don't know all the evidence, and the FL law is murky and bizarre on this issue.

But there's also a question of responsible, moral, intelligent behavior. Zim flunks on all three counts. That's why it's impossible for me to see Zim as hero or victim. He instigated it, he was packing heat, following a kid for no reason except that in his mind he imagined something suspicious. We know he was wrong, since the kid was walking home with stuff from 7-11. We don't need vigilantes, and we sure as hell don't need to glorify them, as much of the right is currently doing.

And you believe that's what I'm doing, glorifying him?

162 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:15:06pm

re: #159 Targetpractice

If Zimmerman had ceased pursuit and was confronted returning to his vehicle, then was he still "heading into danger"?

That's a grey area: I honestly do not know what the law says about that sort of situation. At a guess, I'd say the fact that he had been gone 'looking for trouble' would nullify self-defense, even if that trouble found him after he had stopped looking, but before he'd left the area.

163 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:17:15pm

re: #161 Targetpractice

And you believe that's what I'm doing, glorifying him?

No, not at all, but a cursory look around the internet shows that much of the right is glorifying him, and for all the wrong reasons. They see him as a courageous guy protecting good hard working white people from a nonexistent epidemic of black on white crime. That reaction, not yours, is paranoid, misinformed and morally repugnant.

164 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:17:47pm

re: #162 Dark_Falcon

That's a grey area: I honestly do not know what the law says about that sort of situation. At a guess, I'd say the fact that he had been gone 'looking for trouble' would nullify self-defense, even if that trouble found him after he had stopped looking, but before he'd left the area.

Take a look at the TalkLeft articles I linked to above. They're written by a liberal criminal defense lawyer who has not stake for GZ or against TM. Her analysis seems persuasive enough that it doesn't matter whether GZ stupidly pursued TM, etc. - in this case it only matters who initiated the physical confrontation.

It's not gospel, but it's certainly an opinion that is more competent than ours.

165 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:23:21pm

re: #163 palomino

No, not at all, but a cursory look around the internet shows that much of the right is glorifying him, and for all the wrong reasons. They see him as a courageous guy protecting good hard working white people from a nonexistent epidemic of black on white crime. That reaction, not yours, is paranoid, misinformed and morally repugnant.

And it's one I don't agree with in the least, I feel your analysis spot on. But I can't, by contrast, assume the worst of the man or his actions that evening because the wingnuts want to beautify him. He's a dumbass, a wannabe cop, what have you. But I also have to take into consideration what Martin was, unflattering it may be. And what he is, based upon the evidence so far, was not the angelic child that the media led me to believe he was in the beginning.

166 blueraven  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:24:42pm

re: #157 Targetpractice

In her testimony, Martin told her he was close to home, even as she was calling on him to keep running. Then gets unclear as to what he was doing just before he starts questioning Zimmerman.

I can not see how you can interpret that as DeeDee saying that Martin started the confrontation.

167 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:26:21pm

re: #166 blueraven

I can not see how you can interpret that as DeeDee saying that Martin started the confrontation.

What she didn't state was that Zimmerman started it, which is something I doubt she'd have held back on in light of her deciding for herself that it was Zimmerman who threw the first punch.

168 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:28:22pm

Coulda been worse.

/

169 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:29:40pm

Oops, disregard ;)

170 blueraven  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:37:01pm

re: #167 Targetpractice

What she didn't state was that Zimmerman started it, which is something I doubt she'd have held back on in light of her deciding for herself that it was Zimmerman who threw the first punch.

That is a far cry from what you said.

You said that even DeeDee admitted Trayvon initiated the confrontation.
That is false.
She probably doesn't know who started it.

171 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:41:45pm

re: #170 blueraven

That is a far cry from what you said.

You said that even DeeDee admitted Trayvon initiated the confrontation.
That is false.
She probably doesn't know who started it.

Her dissembling on the subject is as good as an admission, especially in light of how convinced she is that it was Zimmerman who threw the first punch. The only other conclusion is that she doesn't know who confronted who, which means that Zimmerman's recounting of events is all we have to go on.

172 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:47:01pm

re: #165 Targetpractice

And it's one I don't agree with in the least, I feel your analysis spot on. But I can't, by contrast, assume the worst of the man or his actions that evening because the wingnuts want to beautify him. He's a dumbass, a wannabe cop, what have you. But I also have to take into consideration what Martin one, unflattering it may be. And what he is, based upon the evidence so far, was not the angelic child that the media led me to believe he was in the beginning.

As I said above, TM was and is forever a 17-year-old kid and kids sometimes do stupid shit; unfortunately, TM's last act of questionable juvenile judgment may have cost him his life, if he did indeed get tired of GZ stalking him and confronted him. My point is that while TM was a damn kid, GZ is a grown man and should have been aware of the consequences of his actions, especially when packing heat.

Sad part of it is that, because of the FL SYG law and the question of who threw the first punch (disregarding entirely the fact that GZ was tailing TM for no good reason), GZ will likely walk on this, unless the Feds come up with a Hail Mary.

173 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:53:20pm

re: #172 Gitarzan

As I said above, TM was and is forever a 17-year-old kid and kids sometimes do stupid shit; unfortunately, TM's last act of questionable juvenile judgment may have cost him his life, if he did indeed get tired of GZ stalking him and confronted him. My point is that while TM was a damn kid, GZ is a grown man and should have been aware of the consequences of his actions.

Sad part of it is that, because of the FL SYG law and the question of who threw the first punch (disregarding entirely the fact that GZ was tailing TM for no good reason), GZ will likely walk on this, unless the Feds come up with a Hail Mary.

Unless the state's sitting on bombshell evidence that it was Zimmerman who threw the first punch, then he'd walk on even classical self-defense, let alone SYG. Witnesses state that Zimmerman tried and failed to get Martin off of him, that he was getting his face pounded, and that calls on Martin to cease punching had failed. Unless there's evidence in the next round of discovery that demonstrates otherwise, Zimmerman had reason to believe he was in danger of serious bodily harm.

174 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:54:41pm

re: #165 Targetpractice

And it's one I don't agree with in the least, I feel your analysis spot on. But I can't, by contrast, assume the worst of the man or his actions that evening because the wingnuts want to beautify him. He's a dumbass, a wannabe cop, what have you. But I also have to take into consideration what Martin was, unflattering it may be. And what he is, based upon the evidence so far, was not the angelic child that the media led me to believe he was in the beginning.

Fair enough, I don't see you using this in any way to push the right's agenda that the only racism is black on white or that Zim should be praised as heroic. You seem to be dispassionately trying to analyze this from a legal standpoint, which is ultimately what matters most.

But I tend to give Trayvon a little more benefit of the doubt because 5 minutes before he was dead, he clearly wasn't looking for trouble...he was just another kid walking home from 7-11 and minding his own business. Zim, on the other hand, was looking for trouble (and not just by doing his neighborhood watch responsibly); furthermore, Zim overreacted to the situation by leaving his car, had a history of excessive 911 calls, and was clearly trying to emulate law enforcement officers, except he didn't have their badge or training, just a gun.

175 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:01:30pm

re: #174 palomino

Fair enough, I don't see you using this in any way to push the right's agenda that the only racism is black on white or that Zim should be praised as heroic. You seem to be dispassionately trying to analyze this from a legal standpoint, which is ultimately what matters most.

But I tend to give Trayvon a little more benefit of the doubt because 5 minutes before he was dead, he clearly wasn't looking for trouble...he was just another kid walking home from 7-11 and minding his own business. Zim, on the other hand, was looking for trouble (and not just by doing his neighborhood watch responsibly); furthermore, Zim overreacted to the situation by leaving his car, had a history of excessive 911 calls, and was clearly trying to emulate law enforcement officers, except he didn't have their badge or training, just a gun.

What about 4 minutes?

And if Zimmerman's history prior to the shooting is game, why not Martin's? The empty baggie? The jewelry and screwdriver? The THC in his blood? I'll stop at the last and note that I've never met an angry pothead, but I've also never seen somebody coming off a high who was making all the right decisions. I'd consider it plausible that Martin was not high at the time, but had been earlier that day, and still had enough THC in his blood that he thought confronting Zimmerman was a good idea.

176 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:08:02pm

re: #175 Targetpractice

What about 4 minutes?

And if Zimmerman's history prior to the shooting is game, why not Martin's? The empty baggie? The jewelry and screwdriver? The THC in his blood? I'll stop at the last and note that I've never met an angry pothead, but I've also never seen somebody coming off a high who was making all the right decisions. I'd consider it plausible that Martin was not high at the time, but had been earlier that day, and still had enough THC in his blood that he thought confronting Zimmerman was a good idea.

Hasn't it been proven that THC sticks in your blood for like a month after you get high?

177 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:10:02pm

re: #175 Targetpractice

What about 4 minutes?

And if Zimmerman's history prior to the shooting is game, why not Martin's? The empty baggie? The jewelry and screwdriver? The THC in his blood? I'll stop at the last and note that I've never met an angry pothead, but I've also never seen somebody coming off a high who was making all the right decisions. I'd consider it plausible that Martin was not high at the time, but had been earlier that day, and still had enough THC in his blood that he thought confronting Zimmerman was a good idea.

THC stays in the bloodstream for about a month. Maybe he was high that day, the day before, or weeks before. As you said, potheads don't get angry.

The reason I see Trayvon's history as less relevant is that none of it suggested that he was the kind of person who sought out violent confrontations. Zim's history not only involved charges of past assault, but an overzealous attitude about his own crime fighting abilities, when the fact is that he was an irresponsible amateur.

You can argue that the bottom line is Trayvon would be alive if he had just run home. My bottom line is what happened FIRST: Zim following him and getting out of his car armed for no reason whatsoever. People die when amateurs play cop; when kids walk home with skittles...well, there's not exactly a long history of death resulting from that.

178 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:11:35pm

re: #176 jamesfirecat

Hasn't it been proven that THC sticks in your blood for like a month after you get high? Also have you EVER met someone who is made more aggressive by smoking marijuana?

THC in the blood is from 12-24 hours for a single use to 2-7 days for a regular user.

179 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:13:54pm

re: #176 jamesfirecat

Hasn't it been proven that THC sticks in your blood for like a month after you get high?

Yes, of course, but many of the Zim defenders don't care...it's just a piece of "evidence" that Trayvon was the party at fault and Zim is clean as a whistle. Wait, didn't Zim have Rx drugs in his system? The type prescribed for mental disorders? The sort that wouldn't stay in your system for a month.

180 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:15:11pm

re: #178 Targetpractice

THC in the blood is from 12-24 hours for a single use to 2-7 days for a regular user.

If you've smoked pot, you know it's not LSD--it doesn't keep you high for very long. And, as you said, rarely makes people violent. It ain't alcohol.

181 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:15:32pm

re: #177 palomino

THC stays in the bloodstream for about a month. Maybe he was high that day, the day before, or weeks before. As you said, potheads don't get angry.

The reason I see Trayvon's history as less relevant is that none of it suggested that he was the kind of person who sought out violent confrontations. Zim's history not only involved charges of past assault, but an overzealous attitude about his own crime fighting abilities, when the fact is that he was an irresponsible amateur.

You can argue that the bottom line is Trayvon would be alive if he had just run home. My bottom line is what happened FIRST: Zim following him and getting out of his car armedfor no reason whatsoever. People die when amateurs play cop; when kids walk home with skittles...well, there's not exactly a long history of death resulting from that.

Yes, when they walk home. When they decide to confront the vigilante, things go from bad to worse real quickly.

182 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:16:10pm

re: #178 Targetpractice

THC in the blood is from 12-24 hours for a single use to 2-7 days for a regular user.

Given that Trayvon got kicked out of school temporarily on a marijuana related charge, I think it's safe to say that it is entirely plausible to believe that he could have the THC in his blood without getting high that day.

183 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:16:18pm

re: #180 palomino

If you've smoked pot, you know it's not LSD--it doesn't keep you high for very long. And, as you said, rarely makes people violent. It ain't alcohol.

Doesn't make you violent, but can make you stupid. Like stupid enough to think "I can beat this guy in a fight!"

184 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:17:56pm

re: #181 Targetpractice

Yes, when they walk home. When they decide to confront the vigilante, things go from bad to worse real quickly.

If Zimmerman had not disobeyed the 911 operators instructions, Trayvon's behavior would never have mattered.

185 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:19:04pm

re: #182 jamesfirecat

Given that Trayvon got kicked out of school temporarily on a marijuana related charge, I think it's safe to say that it is entirely plausible to believe that he could have the THC in his blood without getting high that day.

Either scenario is plausible, which is the best the State's gonna be able to argue. That he could have smoked it a week prior and still had THC in his system. The Defense will, if it goes to trial, put an expert on the stand who will testify that a person doesn't have to be high to be impaired, and that THC present in Martin's blood means he could have been impaired at the time.

186 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:19:56pm

re: #181 Targetpractice

Yes, when they walk home. When they decide to confront the vigilante, things go from bad to worse real quickly.

Vigilante followed for no reason, then "suspect" confronted him. I tend to go with the temporal aspect of the case when determining the level of responsibility, ie, vigilante acted first.

Maybe Trayvon was trying to kill Zim and deserved to get shot. None of us know. What we do know is that Zim instigated this by following and then leaving vehicle with gun.

Are you saying that someone who's being wrongfully followed has no right to confront the vigilante/stalker/whatever?

187 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:20:23pm

re: #184 jamesfirecat

If Zimmerman had not disobeyed the 911 callers knowledge then Trayvon's behavior would not have come into it.

But he didn't, so Trayvon's behavior does. Time certainly did not stop the moment Zimmerman exited his vehicle.

188 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:20:59pm

re: #185 Targetpractice

Either scenario is plausible, which is the best the State's gonna be able to argue. That he could have smoked it a week prior and still had THC in his system. The Defense will, if it goes to trial, put an expert on the stand who will testify that a person doesn't have to be high to be impaired, and that THC present in Martin's blood means he could have been impaired at the time.

If he was high how the hell was GZ loosing the fight? Marijuana does horrible things to your reflexes doesn't it?

189 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:21:37pm

re: #186 palomino

Vigilante followed for no reason, then "suspect" confronted him. I tend to go with the temporal aspect of the case when determining the level of responsibility, ie, vigilante acted first.

Maybe Trayvon was trying to kill Zim and deserved to get shot. None of us know. What we do know is that Zim instigated this by following and then leaving vehicle with gun.

Are you saying that someone who's being wrongfully followed has no right to confront the vigilante/stalker/whatever?

Certainly they have a right, but it makes self-defense hard to argue when you knowingly head towards danger, doesn't it?

190 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:22:44pm

re: #186 palomino

Morally, you are correct. As I wrote above, I don't know if there is a law that would punish Z, but there should be. Legally, unless the prosecution has a giant ace up their sleeve, it would seem that it would be hard to prove even manslaughter, much less murder 2. Dura lex, sed lex.

191 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:22:55pm

re: #188 jamesfirecat

If he was high how the hell was GZ loosing the fight? Marijuana does horrible things to your reflexes doesn't it?

Again, you don't have to be high to have your judgement impaired.

192 blueraven  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:23:25pm

re: #189 Targetpractice

Certainly they have a right, but it makes self-defense hard to argue when you knowingly head towards danger, doesn't it?

Agreed...and that is exactly what Zimmerman did.

193 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:23:35pm

re: #183 Targetpractice

Doesn't make you violent, but can make you stupid. Like stupid enough to think "I can beat this guy in a fight!"

But that's not necessarily stupid; maybe Trayvon could have beat him in a FAIR fight. And if someone is following you at night, it's not unreasonable to want to find out what the hell is going on and confront your follower. Because in most cases where someone is being followed at night, there's a reason to be scared and the follower's motives--in the mind of a law abiding pedestrian, eg, Trayvon--are certainly suspect.

194 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:23:55pm

re: #192 blueraven

Agreed...and that is exactly what Zimmerman did.

So both parties headed towards danger. Neither party is absolved.

195 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:25:11pm

re: #193 palomino

But that's not necessarily stupid; maybe Trayvon could have beat him in a FAIR fight. And if someone is following you at night, it's not unreasonable to want to find out what the hell is going on and confront your follower. Because in most cases where someone is being followed at night, there's a reason to be scared and the follower's motives--in the mind of a law abiding pedestrian, eg, Trayvon--are certainly suspect.

You're alone at night, guy is following you. You run, he loses sight of you, and begins walking away. You decide that the best course of action is to get in his face and demand to know why he's following you? Especially if you believe he's armed?

196 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:25:51pm

re: #191 Targetpractice

Again, you don't have to be high to have your judgement impaired.

re: #194 Targetpractice

So both parties headed towards danger. Neither party is absolved.

Except that Z started all this shit in the first place, nobody can doubt that.

And by this shit I mean the entire situation not the confrontation, Z was looking for criminals and end up chasing down an innocent person and perusing them past the extent to which any reasonable person woulda have.

197 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:26:11pm

re: #196 jamesfirecat

re: #194 Targetpractice

Except that Z started all this shit in the first place, nobody can doubt that.

And Martin escalated it.

198 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:26:13pm

re: #187 Targetpractice

But he didn't, so Trayvon's behavior does. Time certainly did not stop the moment Zimmerman exited his vehicle.

Concur.

I also do need to point that there's another point in Trayvon's past to consider, though not one that reflects badly on him as a person: Trayvon Martin was a football player. The great majority of football players are trained in how to tackle someone and bring them to the ground. If Martin did indeed charge Zimmerman and knock Zimmerman down, then Zimmerman has a good claim for self-defense (assuming that is not ruled out by Zimmerman leaving his car). Once Zimmerman was on the ground, he could not have escaped and thus would be allowed in any state to use whatever force was needed to stop Martin's attack.

199 blueraven  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:26:34pm

re: #194 Targetpractice

So both parties headed towards danger. Neither party is absolved.

And we are exactly where we started before all the assumptions made here that:
A. Zimmerman did not pursue Martin
B. Martin initiated the confrontation

200 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:26:37pm

re: #189 Targetpractice

Certainly they have a right, but it makes self-defense hard to argue when you knowingly head towards danger, doesn't it?

Who created that "danger"? Zimmerman.

Asking someone who's following you why they're doing it is hardly as unreasonable as getting out of one's car with a loaded gun after following someone you haven't even seen commit a crime.

201 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:28:02pm

re: #200 palomino

Who created that "danger"? Zimmerman.

Asking someone who's following you why they're doing it is hardly as unreasonable as getting out of one's car with a loaded gun after following someone you haven't even seen commit a crime.

Why do you keep bringing up the loaded gun? Do you know that he was brandishing it or had it visible? Because has a license for it, and I've not seen any evidence that he doesn't have it on him at all times.

202 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:30:06pm

re: #201 Targetpractice

Why do you keep bringing up the loaded gun? Do you know that he was brandishing it or had it visible? Because has a license for it, and I've not seen any evidence that he doesn't have it on him at all times.

Any competent neighborhood watch group makes it clear not to bring guns on patrol. Z never should have brought it with him.

203 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:30:28pm

re: #195 Targetpractice

You're alone at night, guy is following you. You run, he loses sight of you, and begins walking away. You decide that the best course of action is to get in his face and demand to know why he's following you? Especially if you believe he's armed?

Again, I think you're assuming facts not in evidence. We don't know that it went down exactly as you describe.

Is there any evidence that Trayvon thought Zim was armed before he got close to him?

You're doing the same thing over and over: focusing on the possible SECOND mistake made that night (Trayvon doubling back to talk to Zim), a mistake that never would have occurred but for the FIRST mistake, Zim playing vigilante, which the evidence shows pretty clearly.

204 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:30:55pm

re: #201 Targetpractice

Why do you keep bringing up the loaded gun? Do you know that he was brandishing it or had it visible? Because has a license for it, and I've not seen any evidence that he doesn't have it on him at all times.

It adds to the responsibility.

205 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:31:37pm

re: #202 jamesfirecat

Any competent neighborhood watch group makes it clear not to bring guns on patrol. Z never should have brought it with him.

I've not seen the rules for this one, as it was created only recently. But the man has a license for concealed carry, which means he may have just had it on him as a matter of daily affairs.

206 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:32:51pm

re: #205 Targetpractice

I've not seen the rules for this one, as it was created only recently. But the man has a license for concealed carry, which means he may have just had it on him as a matter of daily affairs.

What do you mean by"this one"?

207 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:33:01pm

re: #201 Targetpractice

Why do you keep bringing up the loaded gun? Do you know that he was brandishing it or had it visible? Because has a license for it, and I've not seen any evidence that he doesn't have it on him at all times.

Uhh, because it fired the bullets that killed Trayvon.

I'm sorry if you disagree, but sane civilians don't exit their vehicles at night with loaded guns while tracking people they haven't seen commit crimes.

208 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:33:02pm

re: #203 palomino

Again, I think you're assuming facts not in evidence. We don't know that it went down exactly as you describe.

Is there any evidence that Trayvon thought Zim was armed before he got close to him?

You're doing the same thing over and over: focusing on the possible SECOND mistake made that night (Trayvon doubling back to talk to Zim), a mistake that never would have occurred but for the FIRST mistake, Zim playing vigilante, which the evidence shows pretty clearly.

I keep focusing on it because without it, Zimmerman would have returned to his car, gone on home, and probably answered a visit from the cops later to follow up on the call. Or he may have drove around awhile fruitlessly before going home.

209 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:33:15pm

re: #205 Targetpractice

A man with a gun should be especially wary of provoking situations where he may have to use it.

210 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:34:05pm

re: #206 jamesfirecat

What do you mean by"this one"?

The neighborhood watch that he belongs to was created in the months prior to the shooting because of a rash of burglaries in the area. It's not affiliated with the National Neighborhood Watch, so I'm unclear as to whether or not its rules mirror theirs.

211 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:34:54pm

re: #207 palomino

Uhh, because it fired the bullets that killed Trayvon.

I'm sorry if you disagree, but sane civilians don't exit their vehicles at night with loaded guns while tracking people they haven't seen commit crimes.

Do you know that he stopped to think "Perhaps I should leave the gun in the car before I chase this kid down"?

212 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:35:47pm

re: #209 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

A man with a gun should be especially wary of provoking situations where he may have to use it.

Like I said above, he's a dumbass, but that's not criminal (else I'd be occupying a cell).

213 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:37:26pm

re: #212 Targetpractice

Like I said above, he's a dumbass, but that's not criminal (else I'd be occupying a cell).

Well, yes, but that's relevant to why people bring up the loaded gun. It's certainly morally relevant, and it may theoretically be legally relevant, although I'm not sure of that.

214 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:37:40pm

I'd have to say there's still too much about this case we don't know to draw any definitive conclusions.

215 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:38:33pm

re: #213 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Well, yes, but that's relevant to why people bring up the loaded gun. It's certainly morally relevant, and it may theoretically be legally relevant, although I'm not sure of that.

Morally relevant, sure. But legally, unless it can be shown he intended to use it, then defense will likely argue that he had it on him as a part of his daily activity (going to the store) and didn't think to leave it in the vehicle when he got out on foot.

216 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:38:39pm

re: #211 Targetpractice

Do you know that he stopped to think "Perhaps I should leave the gun in the car before I chase this kid down"?

If a civilian carries a piece all the time and doesn't think before getting out of his car to pursue a total non-suspect, then he's both dangerous and irrational.

The problem is that he decided to chase this kid down in the first place with no reason whatsoever.

217 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:39:47pm

re: #216 palomino

If a civilian carries a piece all the time and doesn't think before getting out of his car to pursue a total non-suspect, then he's both dangerous and irrational.

The problem is that he decided to chase this kid down in the first place with no reason whatsoever.

And I'm not disputing he was stupid for getting out on foot to go after Martin. What I am disputing is that the act of doing so means Martin can't be held accountable for mistakes he made as a result.

218 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:41:41pm

re: #209 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

A man with a gun should be especially wary of provoking situations where he may have to use it.

Sadly that's the rest of the developed world's point of view, but not America's so much. Millions of people in this country actually think the 2nd Amendment is the most important of the Bill of Rights. Americans have a bizarre fetish for firearms that most of our counterparts outgrew a few decades back.

219 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:43:41pm

re: #217 Targetpractice

And I'm not disputing he was stupid for getting out on foot to go after Martin. What I am disputing is that the act of doing so means Martin can't be held accountable for mistakes he made as a result.

Of course Martin can be held responsible for his mistakes...well, except that he's dead due to the night's first mistake: Zimmerman's insane decision to follow a non-suspect and then get out of his car to investigate a non-suspect.

220 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:47:00pm

re: #219 palomino

Of course Martin can be held responsible for his mistakes...well, except that he's dead due to the night's first mistake: Zimmerman's insane decision to follow a non-suspect and then get out of his car to investigate a non-suspect.

You say he can be held responsible, yet you keep arguing that it's understandable. So, do you believe that confronting Zimmerman was a mistake or not?

221 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:14:37pm

re: #220 Targetpractice

You say he can be held responsible, yet you keep arguing that it's understandable. So, do you believe that confronting Zimmerman was a mistake or not?

I don't know the exact circumstances under which he confronted Zim. Neither does anyone except Zim.

But I certainly don't think it's unreasonable to try and ascertain why someone is following you, especially when they do it wrongfully (because you're only a suspect in their imagination) and you're doing nothing illegal.

222 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:21:22pm

re: #221 palomino

I don't know the exact circumstances under which he confronted Zim. Neither does anyone except Zim.

But I certainly don't think it's unreasonable to try and ascertain why someone is following you, especially when they do it wrongfully (because you're only a suspect in their imagination) and you're doing nothing illegal.

You'd confronted someone you know is armed, at night, by yourself? Just to question them as to why they're following you?

223 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:22:34pm

re: #222 Targetpractice

You'd confronted someone you know is armed, at night, by yourself? Just to question them as to why they're following you?

Why are you so sure that Trayvon knew Zim was armed before he got near him? How could he have known?

224 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:25:14pm

re: #223 palomino

Why are you so sure that Trayvon knew Zim was armed before he got near him? How could he have known?

Indeed, which is part of why I wondered why you keep bringing up the loaded gun. Other than in the fact that he was morally irresponsible in having it on him while engaging in pursuit, it's not really relevant to the narrative.

225 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:29:24pm

re: #224 Targetpractice

Indeed, which is part of why I wondered why you keep bringing up the loaded gun. Other than in the fact that he was morally irresponsible in having it on him while engaging in pursuit, it's not really relevant to the narrative.

The weapon used in the homicide is irrelevant? Maybe to the narrative some want to construct, but it's certainly relevant regarding the current health status of Trayvon, as well as the intent and mental state of Zimmerman.

226 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:32:27pm

re: #225 palomino

The weapon used in the homicide is irrelevant? Maybe to the narrative some want to construct, but it's certainly relevant regarding the current health status of Trayvon, as well as the intent and mental state of Zimmerman.

You're right, but in the decision-making process in evidence, there's nothing that says that Zimmerman purposefully armed himself before giving chase. Instead, he was already armed when he first noticed Martin and gave the gun no time for thought during his running narrative to 911, or when he climbed out of his car.

227 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:37:04pm

re: #226 Targetpractice

You're right, but in the decision-making process in evidence, there's nothing that says that Zimmerman purposefully armed himself before giving chase. Instead, he was already armed when he first noticed Martin and gave the gun no time for thought during his running narrative to 911, or when he climbed out of his car.

Which may be why a charge like reckless endangerment or negligent homicide would make more sense. But I'm not really fond of vigilantes, and a guy who engages in pursuit of non-suspects with a loaded gun is a vigilante.

228 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:38:47pm

re: #227 palomino

Which may be why a charge like reckless endangerment or negligent homicide would make more sense. But I'm not really fond of vigilantes, and a guy who engages in pursuit of non-suspects with a loaded gun is a vigilante.

Both charges I could see and probably would agree with. But tell me, with as emotionally charged as this case has become, how do you think the public would have reacted had Corey stood at the podium and declared "We're charging him with negligent homicide"?

229 palomino  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:53:55pm

re: #228 Targetpractice

Both charges I could see and probably would agree with. But tell me, with as emotionally charged as this case has become, how do you think the public would have reacted had Corey stood at the podium and declared "We're charging him with negligent homicide"?

Well, Trayvon's supporters would have been pissed, and Zim's supporters would have felt let down, but less angry than they are now. Maybe NH or RE should have been included as a lesser charge. I agree that the charges were likely politically motivated. (But not, as some of Zim's supporters claim, because whites are now held hostage by blacks who are on the verge of riots or killing sprees against whites.)

Fact is, we don't really know how the altercation went down, and probably never fully will unless new evidence is unearthed. On one hand, maybe Trayvon got pissed and decided to beat the shit out of Zimmerman unprovoked and Zim was truly in fear for his life, maybe TM was even motivated by hatred for whites. On the other extreme, maybe Zim profiled Trayvon, then said or did something to initiate the physical altercation, and when Zim realized he was losing the fight, he decided, "Fuck it, I'm gonna just kill this kid." Truth is probably somewhere in between, but like I said, we'll probably never know.

It's an interesting conversation, even if we are sort of going around in circles. And it's a conversation the nation needs to have--on self-defense laws, on crime and race, etc.--but seems incapable of doing with any civility.

I'm certainly open to being convinced otherwise, and maybe the evidence will ultimately lead me to another conclusion. But at this point I have more sympathy for the no-gun dead guy than the overzealous gun guy who's alive. Call me a bleeding heart, but in a homicide I usually come down on the side of the guy with skittles, not the guy with the gun. But, yes, I realize it's more complex than that. Anyway, have a good Memorial Day...and conversation to be continued later maybe, as my wife is now screaming at me to come watch Mad Men and Game of Thrones.

230 simoom  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:03:00pm

Went to bat for S.E. Cupp from the start of the Hustler controversy:


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