Republicans Eager to Embarrass Obama End Up Compromising US Security

National security, GOP style
Politics • Views: 34,372

In the partisan rush to attack President Obama over the violence in Libya, House Republicans didn’t care if they revealed CIA secrets.

When House Republicans called a hearing in the middle of their long recess, you knew it would be something big, and indeed it was: They accidentally blew the CIA’s cover.

The purpose of Wednesday’s hearing of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee was to examine security lapses that led to the killing in Benghazi last month of the U.S. ambassador to Libya and three others. But in doing so, the lawmakers reminded us why “congressional intelligence” is an oxymoron.

Through their outbursts, cryptic language and boneheaded questioning of State Department officials, the committee members left little doubt that one of the two compounds at which the Americans were killed, described by the administration as a “consulate” and a nearby “annex,” was a CIA base. They did this, helpfully, in a televised public hearing.

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627 comments
1 Gus  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:45:31pm

Any comment yet from the Republican leadership? This was the same stuff that the Bush WH warned of. They went against their own standard.

2 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:47:55pm

Repeat of what I just said downstairs...

Well that was pretty stupid, obvious lack of forethought and common sense.

I'll add...
What a bunch of hacks, too busy setting up their partisan bloviating party to think about national security ahead of time.

3 sauceruney  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:49:17pm

But they never take responsibility for their own security lapses. They're only a tool to be used against the opposition.

4 gwangung  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:51:25pm

Party of Personal Responsibility.

RIght.

5 jaunte  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:51:35pm
In the partisan rush to attack President Obama over the violence in Libya, House Republicans didn’t care if they revealed CIA secrets.

Their priority is huffing and puffing about which party is stronger on foreign policy, and not "leading from behind." Those people in the field are just going to have to see the bigger picture.

6 Lidane  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:52:00pm

Everyone knows that Dems and libruls are the only ones that compromise national security. This is all Obama's fault!

I'd add sarc tags to that, but we all know that somewhere out there, some RWNJ blogger has said exactly this.

7 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:52:47pm

ot but I wanted to share a couple of witticisms
Mitt Romney: more positions than the Kama Sutra, all at once.
Mitt Romney: Schroedingers Candidate. can't know his actual position until you elect him

8 gwangung  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:55:32pm

re: #6 Lidane

I'd add sarc tags to that, but we all know that somewhere out there, some RWNJ blogger has said exactly this.

You know, Republicans have this habit of blowing CIA cover stories....

9 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:57:16pm

re: #8 gwangung

You know, Republicans have this habit of blowing CIA cover stories....

given the number of closeted GOP polls, that's not the only thing...

10 Gus  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:57:21pm

Shorter GOP: they are willing to divulge state secrets for political advantage.

11 bluecheese  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:57:21pm

fishing expedition.

Issa don't know if his bobber in the ocean, or a little creek.

12 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:58:30pm

re: #10 Gus

Shorter GOP: they are willing to divulge state secrets for political advantage.

Shorter DNC: Ditto.

13 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:59:10pm

re: #11 bluecheese

fishing expedition.
Issa don't know if his bobber in the ocean, or a little creek.

he's compensating for having a small dinghy

14 gwangung  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:59:25pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

Shorter DNC: Ditto.

Don't be stupid.

15 Gus  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 7:59:57pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

Shorter DNC: Ditto.

Youtube Video
16 Mocking Jay  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:01:19pm

re: #15 Gus

I suddenly feel like I'm back in a bar in the late 90's...

17 Gus  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:01:37pm

re: #16 Mocking Jay

I suddenly feel like I'm back in a bar in the late 90's...

That was the plan. ;)

18 b_sharp  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:02:02pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

Shorter DNC: Ditto.

Example?

19 jaunte  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:03:24pm

Turns out, 'security' costs something.

House Republicans cut the administration's request for embassy security funding by $128 million in fiscal 2011 and $331 million in fiscal 2012. (Negotiations with the Democrat-controlled Senate restored about $88 million of the administration's request.) Last year, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned that Republicans' proposed cuts to her department would be "detrimental to America's national security" -- a charge Republicans rejected.
[Link: www.drudge.com...]

20 Mocking Jay  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:04:29pm

re: #19 jaunte

Turns out, 'security' costs something.

Doesn't matter. Still the donks' fault.

21 Gus  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:05:26pm

re: #20 Mocking Jay

Doesn't matter. Still the donks' fault.

Skip Nixon. It's all Carter's fault.

22 jaunte  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:06:08pm

Dana Milbank continues:

Ryan, Issa and other House Republicans voted for an amendment in 2009 to cut $1.2 billion from State operations, including funds for 300 more diplomatic security positions. Under Ryan’s budget, non-defense discretionary spending, which includes State Department funding, would be slashed nearly 20 percent in 2014, which would translate to more than $400 million in additional cuts to embassy security.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

23 gwangung  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:07:38pm

re: #22 jaunte

Dana Milbank continues:
Ryan, Issa and other House Republicans voted for an amendment in 2009 to cut $1.2 billion from State operations, including funds for 300 more diplomatic security positions. Under Ryan’s budget, non-defense discretionary spending, which includes State Department funding, would be slashed nearly 20 percent in 2014, which would translate to more than $400 million in additional cuts to embassy security.

Boy. That sounds like this would embolden terrorists.

24 R.M, Ramallo  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:07:49pm

Looks like they also exposed what a bunch of bumbling idiots they are.
I mean we kind of knew already, but this is just confirmation.

25 makeitstop  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:08:10pm

Now can we demand simple IQ tests for Congressional candidates running as Republicans?

These chumps are making the stump out in my yard look like a MENSA candidate.

26 jaunte  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:08:26pm

re: #23 gwangung

We'll cruise around offshore with a carrier group. That'll show 'em.

27 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:08:38pm

re: #22 jaunte

Dana Milbank continues:

That's right - the same people who are trying to gut the funding for embassy security are attacking Obama for not doing enough to protect US embassies.

The hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

28 R.M, Ramallo  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:09:23pm

re: #26 jaunte

We'll cruise around offshore with a carrier group. That'll show 'em.

They gonna put up a map first?
//

29 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:12:10pm

So now we know that the consulate "annex" was (is?) actually a remote CIA station, that "a dozen" of the people evacuated from Benghazi came from it, that some of them were "contractors," and that it had a seven member "rapid response" team for security.

Well done gentlemen, well done...

“I totally object to the use of that photo,” Chaffetz continued. He went on to say that “I was told specifically while I was in Libya I could not and should not ever talk about what you’re showing here today.”

I mean just how frigging clueless is that? After that I'm just surprised he didn't get up and point out the annex building on the photo while he was saying it.

30 gwangung  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:14:45pm

re: #26 jaunte

We'll cruise around offshore with a carrier group. That'll show 'em.

The idiots think the only way to conduct foreign policy is to swing their dicks around.

31 Lidane  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:14:54pm

re: #19 jaunte

Turns out, 'security' costs something.

It's all Obama's fault!

Also, it's not the late 90's without this:

Youtube Video

Heh.

32 Gus  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:15:15pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

That's right - the same people who are trying to gut the funding for embassy security are attacking Obama for not doing enough to protect US embassies.

The hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

Dick Cheney wouldn't have allowed this.

33 jaunte  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:16:20pm

re: #29 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

Here's how reason.com described that:

Utah Republican Jason Chaffetz, who went on the trip to Libya, implored committee members not to disclose sensitive information at the hearing, saying "it's been to hard to get basic information" as it is.
[Link: reason.com...]

"Geeze, guys, you just can't stand up here with a camera on and reveal that the annex was a CIA facility!"

34 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:16:58pm

re: #15 Gus

[Embedded content]

Youtube Video
35 makeitstop  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:18:19pm

No examples of Dems outing CIA facilities?

Thought not.

36 Gus  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:18:42pm

I would have had America's back regardless of party from the Benghazi attack. We are all Americans.

37 gwangung  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:20:07pm

re: #36 Gus

I would have had America's back regardless of party from the Benghazi attack. We are all Americans.

Well, at least we act like Americans.

38 b_sharp  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:22:11pm

re: #36 Gus

I would have had America's back regardless of party from the Benghazi attack. We are all Americans.


Homo

Homo sapiens

39 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:22:34pm

One thing that the Republican hawks pushing for an attack on Iran never calculate is the fact that the radiological disaster that bombing fueled facilities would precipitate will cause every US embassy in the Middle East to become a smoking crater. That's the best case scenario.

40 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:24:07pm

re: #39 goddamnedfrank

One thing that the Republican hawks pushing for an attack on Iran never calculate is the fact that the radiological disaster that bombing fueled facilities would precipitate will cause every US embassy in the Middle East to become a smoking crater. That's the best case scenario.

Hyperbole much? That's a gross exaggeration.

41 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:24:10pm

re: #36 Gus

I would have had America's back regardless of party from the Benghazi attack. We are all Americans.

Myself as well. Sadly the criticism and defense is politically motivated.I seriously doubt Issa is actually concerned with diplomatic security and the OGA reveal in the hearings probably wasn't much of a secret. It's all partisan noise.

42 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:27:33pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

Hyperbole much? That's a gross exaggeration.

No it isn't. Imagine if a foreign power irradiated half the Midwest with an attack on America, how would their embassies and consulates fare? The idea that the US can just ride through the blowback caused by such an incident without disastrous consequences is unbelievably naive.

43 Bob Dillon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:27:43pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

Amen!

44 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:29:04pm

OGA

OGA is an abbreviation used in the United States to signify Other Government Agency. mb,mbn/m,n.,mn.,[clarification needed] In government and military parlance it is often used to speak euphemistically of the Central Intelligence Agency, particularly when its operations in a particular area are an open secret.

CIA ops aren't really James Bond top secret types. Even as a kid at foreign embassies 1,000's of miles away from an ocean men would show up sometimes in navy whites. OGA's, everybody knew, not secret.

45 R.M, Ramallo  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:29:34pm

I am just absolutely dumbfounded.
Strike that...Darrell Issa was involved.

Should't he be out stealing cars or something?

46 Gus  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:30:36pm

It's a dangerous world.

47 b_sharp  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:31:57pm

re: #43 Bob Dillon

Amen!

Gesundheit.

48 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:33:18pm

OGA's will tell some great stories around the diner table too. Misplacing their passport and forgetting their alias, etc. Wandering across a border crossing in the fog and can't return without a visa stamp. paid for prostitutes with marked bills. Nice folks.

49 Bob Dillon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:35:05pm

re: #47 reflections of a raging redneck

Gesundheit.

Spasibo.

50 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:35:33pm

re: #42 goddamnedfrank

No it isn't. Imagine if a foreign power irradiated half the Midwest with an attack on American, how would their embassies and consulates fare? The idea that the US can just ride through the blowback caused by such an incident without disastrous consequences is unbelievably naive.

They'll greet us as liberators and love us for bringing them freedom and democracy. Shut up, Commie!///

(I have no idea how to do the wingnut purple text.)

51 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:35:57pm

re: #46 Gus

It's a dangerous world.

Lest one forgets, the incident that precipitated the Benghazi embassy attack was a low budget film on Youtube disrespecting the prophet Mohammed. So imagine how the citizens of the Middle East will react when they can blame us for something tangible like an environmental catastrophe?

52 Gus  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:36:10pm
53 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:37:28pm

re: #42 goddamnedfrank

No it isn't. Imagine if a foreign power irradiated half the Midwest with an attack on America, how would their embassies and consulates fare? The idea that the US can just ride through the blowback caused by such an incident without disastrous consequences is unbelievably naive.

Half the middle east. pshaw! And I'd more think our ruthlessness would cut back in such incidents. They would, but greater still would be their fear.

54 dragonfire1981  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:37:41pm

re: #50 Ghost of Tom Joad

They'll greet us as liberators and love us for bringing them freedom and democracy. Shut up, Commie!///

(I have no idea how to do the wingnut purple text.)

Square brackets. Like this:

[ wingnut ] [ / wingnut ] (minus the added spaces of course)

55 Bob Dillon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:37:51pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

OGA

CIA ops aren't really James Bond top secret types. Even as a kid at foreign embassies 1,000's of miles away from an ocean men would show up sometimes in navy whites. OGA's, everybody knew, not secret.

And some in civvies. A good number are just language translators.

56 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:38:06pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

Myself as well. Sadly the criticism and defense is politically motivated.I seriously doubt Issa is actually concerned with diplomatic security and the OGA reveal in the hearings probably wasn't much of a secret. It's all partisan noise.

I think it's become obvious Issa cares about 2 things. His career and fighting political grudges (not that I think #2 is helping #1, but I don't think he's that bright anyway).

57 R.M, Ramallo  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:38:44pm

I thought Benghazi was a planned attack.

58 Bob Dillon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:39:56pm

re: #57 Reverend Mother Ramallo

Your thinking is correct according to the reports.

59 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:40:06pm

re: #54 dragonfire1981

Thanks.

60 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:40:53pm

re: #48 Killgore Trout

Good, you're here. I found this an hour ago and I've been waiting for you to get here to post it:

No Longer Joseph Pulitzer’s School

According to the most recent Gallup poll, distrust of the mainstream media is at an all-time high, “with 60% saying they have little or no trust in the mass media to report the news fully, accurately, and fairly.” Anyone still wondering why might look into a symposium held last week at Columbia University’s Graduate School of Journalism, long the nation’s most prestigious media training ground. Titled “Covering Occupy and the Tea Party,” the panel was organized and moderated by Todd Gitlin, a full professor at Columbia and chair of its Ph.D. program who also happens to be a veteran activist on the left, going back to his days as a founder and early president of Students for a Democratic Society.

To be sure, the media’s handling, or mishandling, of the Occupy phenomenon and the Tea Party is a legitimate subject for academic inquiry. Media coverage of these movements—both at the heart of the nation’s ideological divide—has unquestionably shaped public perceptions, and participants in both movements have complained about unfair press treatment. Yet the media have hardly approached the two stories with equal skepticism. Occupy veterans now insist that it was largely the media’s shift in focus from the protest against income inequality to the behavior of the movement’s more disruptive elements that undermined public support; but it was also the media’s enthusiasm for Occupy that put the movement on the map in the first place. By contrast, the media derided the spontaneous demonstrations across America in 2009 that kicked off the Tea Party movement as “Astroturf”—that is, a phony grass-roots movement. As the movement showed its muscle, leading to smashing electoral triumphs in 2010, the media regularly characterized its adherents as mean-spirited, xenophobic, and racist—on precious little evidence.

So media self-scrutiny is very much in order, and the nation’s premier journalism school would seem to be the place to begin. But of course that’s not what the symposium delivered last week. The deck was stacked from the start by Gitlin’s choice of participants. They included:

61 b_sharp  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:41:42pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Half the middle east. pshaw! And I'd more think our ruthlessness would cut back in such incidents. They would, but greater still would be their fear.

That may work for some people, but there are quite a few out there who become more resolute when attacked. Add to that a reward after death for martyrdom and your idea doesn't hold up.

62 R.M, Ramallo  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:42:24pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Half the middle east. pshaw! And I'd more think our ruthlessness would cut back in such incidents. They would, but greater still would be their fear.

No. It would piss them off.
That is very naive.

63 b_sharp  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:44:30pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Good, you're here. I found this an hour ago and I've been waiting for you to get here to post it:

No Longer Joseph Pulitzer’s School

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

64 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:44:30pm

re: #62 Reverend Mother Ramallo

No. It would piss them off.
That is very naive.

The commies were really scared by our "ruthlessness" when we dropped the nukes on Japan. Which is why they backed down so easily in the Cold War, and didn't seek to spread their philosophy around the globe./

65 jaunte  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:45:09pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

As the movement showed its muscle, leading to smashing electoral triumphs in 2010, the media regularly characterized its adherents as mean-spirited, xenophobic, and racist; on precious little evidence.

Really?

66 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:46:30pm

re: #61 reflections of a raging redneck

That may work for some people, but there are quite a few out there who become more resolute when attacked. Add to that a reward after death for martyrdom and your idea doesn't hold up.

Then it doesn't. We can't allow Iran to hold much of the world hostage with nukes. If stopping that means we're hated, then we must accept being hated.

What I still don't think likely is that a facility under a mountain is going to generate a large fallout pattern.

67 b_sharp  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:46:30pm

re: #65 jaunte

I thought I saw a fair bit of evidence.

The idea the media isn't trusted is more extreme right propaganda.

68 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:48:15pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

the media regularly characterized its adherents as mean-spirited, xenophobic, and racist—on precious little evidence.

....Like, 30 seconds with Google images of tea party is a good start.

69 alpuz  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:48:32pm
By contrast, the media derided the spontaneous demonstrations across America in 2009 that kicked off the Tea Party movement as “Astroturf”—that is, a phony grass-roots movement. As the movement showed its muscle, leading to smashing electoral triumphs in 2010, the media regularly characterized its adherents as mean-spirited, xenophobic, and racist—on precious little evidence.

Really? They did? I must have been watching a whole different reality here in my house. Spontaneous? I must not understand the meaning of that word. The 'Fire Pelosi' buses that cruised through my neighborhood looked incredibly familiar to the 'Stand for Walker' buses that showed up later. Only the paint job had changed.

AFP is anything but 'grassroots'.

70 dragonfire1981  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:48:49pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

According to the most recent Gallup poll, distrust of the mainstream media is at an all-time high, “with 60% saying they have little or no trust in the mass media to report the news fully, accurately, and fairly.

Hate to break it to you but I'm pretty with regards to this study, Fox News is considered "mainstream media". Don't act like this is a one sided problem.

71 Interesting Times  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:49:17pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

LOL libertarian rag city journal. At least it isn't quite as bad as national review 9_9

72 alpuz  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:50:15pm

You fuckin' troll. I'd rather watch the remake of The thing.

73 dragonfire1981  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:50:31pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

Then it doesn't. We can't allow Iran to hold much of the world hostage with nukes. If stopping that means we're hated, then we must accept being hated.

What I still don't think likely is that a facility under a mountain is going to generate a large fallout pattern.

I could be wrong but I do not believe we have the military capacity in place to stage a full war against Iran right now. And even if we did, the LAST thing we need is yet another war with more bottomless defense spending spiking the deficit up even higher.

74 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:50:46pm

re: #71 Interesting Times

LOL libertarian rag city journal. At least it isn't quite as bad as national review 9_9


Not really libertarian any more. I don't think that's a libertarian article there.

75 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:51:39pm

re: #73 dragonfire1981

I could be wrong but I do not believe we have the military capacity in place to stage a full war against Iran right now. And even if we did, the LAST thing we need is yet another war with more bottomless defense spending spiking the deficit up even higher.

We have enough air power to disable critical nuclear facilities. That is all we need to do. No ground troops will be used.

76 R.M, Ramallo  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:54:14pm

Frankly, I'm more worried about Pakistan, cause, you know, they already have nukes.
Bombing the hell out of the ME though, I'm sure they'll all be fine with that.

77 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:54:43pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Good, you're here. I found this an hour ago and I've been waiting for you to get here to post it:

No Longer Joseph Pulitzer’s School

Good one. I saw a passing mention of that conference a few days ago but there wasn't much detail. From your link...

Yet what would strike many outsiders as stunning is what Gitlin, his panelists, and most everyone in the audience—composed largely of journalism students—seemingly take for granted: that the Occupy movement, its occasional excesses and counterproductive tactics aside, is at its core good, decent, and noble; while the Tea Party, for all its successes, is fundamentally malign. In the real world, such assumptions are, to put it mildly, matters of fierce contention, with millions of thoughtful Americans holding exactly the contrary view—that Occupy is anarchic and deeply destructive, and that the Tea Party is part of a long tradition of democratic engagement. Throughout the two-hour session, this inconvenient fact received not so much as a passing nod.

It is interesting that Time named "the protester" (using the image of an OWS idiot) as their Person of the Year award. A movement that only lasted a few months, accomplished nothing but tighter local laws about camping in parks , resulted in several terrorism cases and quickly gained a lower popularity rating that the Tea Party. It was largely a media driven/manufactured event.

78 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:56:12pm

Deflection.

79 Interesting Times  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:57:58pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

Not really libertarian any more. I don't think that's a libertarian article there.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research (renamed in 1981 from the International Center for Economic Policy Studies) is an American conservative,[1][2] market-oriented[3] think tank...Its message is communicated through books, articles, interviews, speeches, op-eds, and through the institute's quarterly publication City Journal, targeted at policymakers, politicians, scholars, and journalists.
...
The Manhattan Institute received $19,470,416 in grants from 1985–2005, from foundations such as the Koch Family Foundations, the John M. Olin Foundation, Inc., the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, the Scaife Foundations, and the Smith Richardson Foundation.[5] The Manhattan Institute does not disclose its corporate funding, but the Capital Research Center listed its contributors as Bristol-Myers Squibb, Exxon Mobil, Chase Manhattan, CIGNA, Sprint, Reliant Energy, Lincoln Financial Group Foundation, and Merrill Lynch.[6]

AGW deniers are their biggest contributors. Tells me all I need to know about their credibility or lack thereof.

80 gwangung  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:58:08pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Good one. I saw a passing mention of that conference a few days ago but there wasn't much detail. From your link...

It is interesting that Time named "the protester" (using the image of an OWS idiot) as their Person of the Year award. A movement that only lasted a few months, accomplished nothing but tighter local laws about camping in parks , resulted in several terrorism cases and quickly gained a lower popularity rating that the Tea Party. It was largely a media driven/manufactured event.

Now that's just silly. Getting masses of people to do something like that for any time over a week is HARD. You don't impose that motivation from above or from a small group; it's from something internal that resonates with masses of people. As such, it's far from being media driven or manufactured (which, by definition is the result of actions of a small number of people).

81 Lidane  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:58:14pm

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

We have enough air power to disable critical nuclear facilities. That is all we need to do. No ground troops will be used.

Because there wouldn't be any consequences anywhere for the US attacking Iran. Heck, I bet the Iranians would even greet us as liberators, showering us with flowers and love and sunshine and sharing their oil profits with us.

82 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:59:28pm

re: #76 Reverend Mother Ramallo

Frankly, I'm more worried about Pakistan, cause, you know, they already have nukes.
Bombing the hell out of the ME though, I'm sure they'll all be fine with that.

There is a glimmer of hope that maybe the reaction to the 14 year old girl the Taliban shot may cause some backlash. Ban Ki Moon and Obama made some supportive statements today but I'm not hopeful. Like Kony 2012, it'll probably be forgotten by next week.

83 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:59:32pm

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

We have enough air power to disable critical nuclear facilities. That all we need to do. No ground troops will be used.

Until they retaliate and attack Israel, drawing us into war. But yeah, other than that, no ground troops will be needed.

84 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:01:14pm

By this point at LGF, I've seen pretty much every possible tactic people use to deflect attention away from a topic they don't like.

85 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:03:43pm

Apparently Iran's going to be totally cool with us bombing them preemptively. Definitely no retaliation for that, because they'll be too scared.

Brilliant.

86 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:03:44pm

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

We have enough air power to disable critical nuclear facilities. That all we need to do. No ground troops will be used.

I'm kind of done taking geopolitical advice from someone who refuses to even think a single step ahead. How do you neutralize the thousands of surface to surface missile sites dug into the mountains above the Persian Gulf?

87 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:04:40pm

re: #86 goddamnedfrank

I'm kind of done taking geopolitical advice from someone who refuses to even think a single step ahead. How do you neutralize the thousands of surface to surface missile sites dug into the mountains above the Persian Gulf?

FEAR!

Haven't you been paying attention? :-

88 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:04:47pm

re: #86 goddamnedfrank

I'm kind of done taking geopolitical advice from someone who refuses to even think a single step ahead. How do you neutralize the thousands of surface to surface missile sites dug into the mountains above the Persian Gulf?

They don't have thousands, Frank. Where'd you even get that number?

89 makeitstop  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:06:30pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

They don't have thousands, Frank. Where'd you even get that number?

And you know this.... how?

90 engineer cat  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:07:16pm

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

We have enough air power to disable critical nuclear facilities. That is all we need to do. No ground troops will be used.

famous last words

91 darthstar  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:07:17pm

re: #89 makeitstop

And you know this.... how?

The Iranians wouldn't dream of building more than a few weapons.

92 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:07:34pm

re: #79 Interesting Times

You said 'libertarian'. I was replying that their focus over the last few years is not libertarian, instead admitting a far greater role for the state than libertarians would allow.

93 jaunte  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:07:35pm

“In this hearing room, we’re not going to point out details of what may still in fact be a facility of the United States government or more facilities.”

94 jaunte  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:08:30pm

“We’re getting into classified issues that deal with sources and methods that would be totally inappropriate in an open forum such as this.”

95 Mattand  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:08:52pm

re: #81 Lidane

Because there wouldn't be any consequences anywhere for the US attacking Iran. Heck, I bet the Iranians would even greet us as liberators, showering us with flowers and love and sunshine and sharing their oil profits with us.

It's absolutely staggering that after watching the quagmire that was Iraq, that anyone with even the tinniest connection to reality thinks an attack on Iran would be a simple one-and-done.

96 darthstar  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:09:01pm

DF is an expert on military strategy going back generations...one of his ancestors told Custer, "North Dakota? The Indians up there are pussies!"

97 jaunte  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:09:02pm

“I was told specifically while I was in Libya I could not and should not ever talk about what you’re showing here today.”

98 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:09:09pm

"We'll just bomb the shit out of Iran, and leave. World's safe, nothing bad will happen now!"

You honestly do sound like the Bush administration's "They'll treat us as liberators!" talk. Absolutely no clue on the consequences of your actions. No foresight at all.

99 nines09  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:09:34pm

GOP Uber Alles.

100 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:09:39pm

re: #70 dragonfire1981

According to the most recent Gallup poll, distrust of the mainstream media is at an all-time high, “with 60% saying they have little or no trust in the mass media to report the news fully, accurately, and fairly.

Hate to break it to you but I'm pretty with regards to this study, Fox News is considered "mainstream media". Don't act like this is a one sided problem.

When the pollster asks, "Do you trust the mass media to report the news fully, accurately, and fairly?"

Many on the Right think of MSNBC and say no.
Many on the left think of Fox and say no.

There you go, 60% of people do not trust "mass media," but that does not mean that they distrust all media.

101 jaunte  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:09:54pm

“I believe that the markings on that map were terribly inappropriate."

102 darthstar  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:09:56pm

re: #98 JamesWI

Bomb 'em with bibles.

103 Bob Dillon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:10:22pm

re: #84 Charles Johnson

By this point at LGF, I've seen pretty much every possible tactic people use to deflect attention away from a topic they don't like.

Politicians have big mouths because they can get away with it. From the top to the bottom on all sides and the media stokes the coals. Yep, the R's took a shot at the President and made public information that should have been closely held.

104 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:10:39pm

re: #89 makeitstop

And you know this.... how?

Last numbers I read were less than 300 anti-ship missiles and not all of them ready to fire. Iran has less than 40 missile silos.

105 darthstar  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:11:17pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

Last numbers I read were less than 300 anti-ship missiles and not all of them ready to fire. Iran has less than 40 missile silos.

And we're worried about them getting nukes?

106 Amory Blaine  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:11:46pm

re: #16 Mocking Jay

I suddenly feel like I'm back in a bar in the late 90's...

If I hear Red Red Wine one more time I'm sticking an icepick in my eye.

107 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:11:52pm

PANIC! Obama might not have 320 electoral votes now!

108 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:13:01pm

re: #105 darthstar

And we're worried about them getting nukes?

They're just the new boogeyman of the decade that requires some form of military action and lots of "defense" spending.

109 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:13:02pm

re: #98 JamesWI

"We'll just bomb the shit out of Iran, and leave. World's safe, nothing bad will happen now!"

You honestly do sound like the Bush administration's "They'll treat us as liberators!" talk. Absolutely no clue on the consequences of your actions. No foresight at all.

the proposed targets were facilities enriching uranium to weapons grade. Just those facilities, I'm not talking about strikes on civilian infrastructure.

110 engineer cat  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:13:25pm

with 60% saying they have little or no trust in the

... and in other news, a majority of republicans now think that the polls accurately reflect the state of the presidential race

111 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:15:20pm

I'm too tired to keep posting. good Night, all.

112 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:15:31pm

re: #109 Dark_Falcon

the proposed targets were facilities enriching uranium to weapons grade. Just those facilities, I'm not talking about strikes on civilian infrastructure.

Oh, I'm sure Iran won't care then!

Jesus......

113 Lidane  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:17:35pm

re: #95 Mattand

It's absolutely staggering that after watching the quagmire that was Iraq, that anyone with even the tiniest connection to reality thinks an attack on Iran would be a simple one-and-done.

I think all the saber rattling is both hilariously ignorant and incredibly dangerous and stupid.

Iran is almost four times the size of Iraq, with more than double the population, and it borders both Iraq AND Afghanistan. What could possibly go wrong if we decide to attack them?

114 R.M, Ramallo  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:19:02pm

We'll fight 'em over there, so we don't have to fight 'em over here...
Giggity.

115 Mattand  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:20:41pm

re: #113 Lidane

I think all the saber rattling is both hilariously ignorant and incredibly dangerous and stupid.

Iran is almost four times the size of Iraq, with more than double the population, and it borders both Iraq AND Afghanistan. What could possibly go wrong if we decide to attack them?

I think it's the almost lackadaisical, non-chalant approach to possibly igniting World War 3 that's so jaw-dropping.

116 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:21:41pm

re: #113 Lidane

I think all the saber rattling is both hilariously ignorant and incredibly dangerous and stupid.

Iran is almost four times the size of Iraq, with more than double the population, and it borders both Iraq AND Afghanistan. What could possibly go wrong if we decide to attack them?

I long ago came to the conclusion that being a true conservative means supporting something so fervently that it requires a complete shutting out of any outside ideas, facts, or discussion. There's plenty of other issues that idea applies to as well. Hate to insult anybody, but I call them as I see them.

117 Lidane  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:22:09pm

re: #109 Dark_Falcon

the proposed targets were facilities enriching uranium to weapons grade. Just those facilities, I'm not talking about strikes on civilian infrastructure.

Because Tehran and its allies will be completely copacetic with that. Really.

118 darthstar  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:22:56pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

I'm too tired to keep posting. good Night, all.

You debate like a jihadi. Sleep well.

119 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:23:45pm

The Japanese only attacked Pearl Harbor, a military base. No civilian infrastructure. No reason for the U.S. to do anything in retaliation.

Derp.

120 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:24:10pm

re: #117 Lidane

Because Tehran and its allies will be completely copacetic with that. Really.

Countries should have no problems with strikes on their military targets. I'm still confused as to why the U.S. got so worked up about that Pearl Harbor thing.

121 R.M, Ramallo  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:24:34pm

Because when I see a hornet's nest, the first thing I do is yell and beat it with a stick.
//
smh

122 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:24:55pm

re: #119 JamesWI

The Japanese only attacked Pearl Harbor, a military base. No civilian infrastructure. No reason for the U.S. to do anything.

Derp.

What number am I thinking of?

123 darthstar  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:25:47pm

re: #122 Ghost of Tom Joad

What number am I thinking of?

42

124 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:25:51pm

re: #122 Ghost of Tom Joad

What number am I thinking of?

42

125 Mattand  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:27:50pm

Slightly OT: my karma count for comment 95 just read "NaN", instead of a number. Clicking on it changed it back to "0".

Gah?

126 R.M, Ramallo  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:29:21pm

Early start. Off to bed.
Have Fun !

127 engineer cat  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:33:08pm

re: #125 Mattand

Slightly OT: my karma count for comment 95 just read "NaN", instead of a number. Clicking on it changed it back to "0".

Gah?

i thought NaN only existed in C#

128 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:37:05pm

re: #125 Mattand

Slightly OT: my karma count for comment 95 just read "NaN", instead of a number. Clicking on it changed it back to "0".

Gah?

NaN means "Not a Number." It's a Javascript error - we're still having connectivity problems tonight, apparently.

129 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:38:20pm
130 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:40:07pm

It is a problem if intelligence was leaked out in this hearing, but we also have to hold the administration accountable. It really looks like the administration intentionally misled both the public and the Congress for political purposes when they advanced the narrative that a terrorist attack on our embassy was due to some stupid video.

131 Lidane  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:41:32pm

re: #128 Charles Johnson

When the hamsters were having a collective seizure the other day I was getting method error messages. I'd never seen that before.

132 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:52:52pm

re: #130 BryanS

It is a problem if intelligence was leaked out in this hearing, but we also have to hold the administration accountable. It really looks like the administration intentionally misled both the public and the Congress for political purposes when they advanced the narrative that a terrorist attack on our embassy was due to some stupid video.

Or maybe they wanted to get all on the intelligence first and not let the terrorist know they were on to them.

Discretion. How does that work? I suppose you think they should've made a public announcement about finding Osama in Pakistan first?

133 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:55:38pm

On an off-topic note, has their been any lefty notice of/debunking/defense against something Thomas Sowell recently wrote up?

[Link: townhall.com...]

Innumerable facts, however, show that it is our Commander in Chief who is Phony in Chief. A classic example was his speech to a predominantly black audience at Hampton University on June 5, 2007. That date is important, as we shall see.

...

Departing from his prepared remarks, he mentioned the Stafford Act, which requires communities receiving federal disaster relief to contribute 10 percent as much as the federal government does.

Senator Obama, as he was then, pointed out that this requirement was waived in the case of New York and Florida because the people there were considered to be "part of the American family." But the people in New Orleans -- predominantly black -- "they don't care about as much," according to Barack Obama.

...

Unlike Jeremiah Wright's church, the U.S. Senate keeps a record of who was there on a given day. The Congressional Record for May 24, 2007 shows Senator Barack Obama present that day and voting on the bill that waived the Stafford Act requirement. Moreover, he was one of just 14 Senators who voted against -- repeat, AGAINST -- the legislation which included the waiver.

I didn't think the release of that video was too big of a deal--didn't like the demagoguery over the hurricane issue, but otherwise it wasn't a huge thing. This bit of information though seems to show Obama was knowingly lying to his audience with the intent of whipping up resentment. Can anyone here show Obama wasn't doing this?

134 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:57:20pm

re: #130 BryanS

It is a problem if intelligence was leaked out in this hearing, but we also have to hold the administration accountable. It really looks like the administration intentionally misled both the public and the Congress for political purposes when they advanced the narrative that a terrorist attack on our embassy was due to some stupid video.

Or maybe they just weren't getting good info right after the attack.

I also love that you think it's outlandish and unbelievable that the administration could have possibly thought this had anything to do with the video. It's not like any other embassies came under fire because of the video.... Completely unbelievable.

135 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:59:00pm

re: #133 BryanS

On an off-topic note, has their been any lefty notice of/debunking/defense against something Thomas Sowell recently wrote up?

[Link: townhall.com...]

I didn't think the release of that video was too big of a deal--didn't like the demagoguery over the hurricane issue, but otherwise it wasn't a huge thing. This bit of information though seems to show Obama was knowingly lying to his audience with the intent of whipping up resentment. Can anyone here show Obama wasn't doing this?

"Can anyone here show Obama wasn't doing this?"

Troll attempt: unsuccessful.

136 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 9:59:42pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

They don't have thousands, Frank. Where'd you even get that number?

Here's the publicly available version:

Iran possesses a build up of anti-ship weapons called Sunburn missiles, which it has procured from Russia and China over the last decade. These are top-notch weapons developed by the Russians as a low-cost challenge to the expensive, tech-heavy weaponry of the U.S., and specifically the aircraft carrier task force. A conflict, which I now assign a high probability to [see Scenario for an Israel Attack on Iran], is going to be a huge test of a global-naval doctrine that Russia and China will watch with tremendous interest. That’s why I think they have armed Iran to the teeth. The big question: How many of these weapons does Iran have? I would suggest thousands, and that this is the real show.

That's just one missile model, the threat is dug in, varied, and geared toward saturation.

The Sunburn is versatile, and can be fired from practically any platform, including just a flat bed truck. It has a 90-mile range, which is all that is necessary in the small Persian Gulf and 40-mile-wide Strait of Hormuz. Fired from shore a missile could hit a ship in the Strait in less than a minute. It presents a real threat to the U.S. Navy. Tests using the Aegean and RAM ship defense technology stops the Sunburn 95% of the time, but such testing was done in open seas, not a bathtub. The payload hit with a 750-pound conventional warhead can be witnessed at 1:53-1:57 in this video. Not enough to sink a carrier, but it could take down smaller capital ships and crew.

You don’t have to be Hannibal preparing for the Battle of Cannae to see that the Strait is a potential shooting gallery. Without a doubt, Iran has plotted and mapped every firing angle and location along the Gulf, their home-court coastline. This is going to put enormous interdiction pressure on U.S. warplanes to spot and destroy platforms, which may be as simple as a flat-bed truck. In reality, Iran has dug in from Jask in the east to Bandar in the west and can easily cover any ship, commercial or military, traversing the narrow Strait.

Equally disturbing is Iran’s missile range for the entire Persian Gulf. Bahrain itself could be hit by the longer-range version of the Sunburn, the Onyx. Is the U.S. (which has three aircraft carrier groups in play currently) going to stick around or clear out to the Oman Sea, leaving control of the oil lanes to Iran? Or will they stay and slug it out with the Iranians? If so, at what cost? Iran’s strategic advantage may mean some losses for the 5th Fleet, if this gets played out on Iran’s home court.

137 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:00:17pm

re: #132 moderatelyradicalliberal

Or maybe they wanted to get all on the intelligence first and not let the terrorist know they were on to them.

Discretion. How does that work? I suppose you think they should've made a public announcement about finding Osama in Pakistan first?

That is a pretty lame reason. The facts were reported in the press before Susan Rice went around the Sunday talk shows and spread the narrative. The president of Libya for goodness sake was on one of those same Sunday shows disputing Susan Rice's account and describing it as a terrorist attack.

Numerous people in congress complained that their classified briefing from the State dept was less informative than they got from journalists' accounts in the papers.

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:02:13pm

re: #73 dragonfire1981

I could be wrong but I do not believe we have the military capacity in place to stage a full war against Iran right now.

It would be miserable and messy, to put it mildly.

139 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:03:18pm

re: #76 Reverend Mother Ramallo

Frankly, I'm more worried about Pakistan, cause, you know, they already have nukes.
Bombing the hell out of the ME though, I'm sure they'll all be fine with that.

We know who Pakistan wants to nuke. They also have nukes. If you can have a Mexican standoff in South Asia, they've got one there.

This is not to say it couldn't all go kablooey in some awful way, but it's a rather stable situation so far, mostly.

140 HappyWarrior  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:04:39pm

Agh like I need another reason and this is a more important reason to be upset tonight.

141 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:05:04pm

re: #135 JamesWI

"Can anyone here show Obama wasn't doing this?"

Troll attempt: unsuccessful.

"Troll attempt: unsuccessful."

Logic attempt: unsuccessful.


You are just ignoring the entirety of that post. Obama made a speech in the days leading up to his upcoming campaign that accused the Bush admin of not exempting New Orleans from the Stafford Act when that exemption passed congress two weeks before his speech and Obama voted against it.

I guess the facts are too damning for you to mount a coherent argument? I asked a serious question--I've not seen any lefties mention this story. I'm just asking for the other side. If you don't know the argument defending against or debunking these accusations, maybe someone else does.

142 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:05:31pm

re: #102 darthstar

Bomb 'em with bibles.

Chicken. There's a chicken shortage. Drop Foster Farms from the skies, and we'll be golden.

143 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:05:51pm

re: #105 darthstar

And we're worried about them getting nukes?

Well, yes.

144 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:06:59pm

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

It would be miserable and messy, to put it mildly.

The sanctions thing seems to finally be having an effect. More of that may be in order. Enough of the world is scared to death of Iran getting a nuke that there is potential for this to work--if the Iranians have any rational sense of self preservation, that is. If they don't, then war really is the only option left.

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:12:03pm

re: #144 BryanS

The sanctions thing seems to finally be having an effect. More of that may be in order. Enough of the world is scared to death of Iran getting a nuke that there is potential for this to work--if the Iranians have any rational sense of self preservation, that is. If they don't, then war really is the only option left.

My problem with all of this is that I really can't get a good gauge, no matter how I try, of how genuinely batshit insane, as opposed to crazy like a fox, those who call the shots inside Iran really are.

I can neither fully accept nor fully discount the idea that Twelfther ideology has persuaded them that Armageddon is a worthwhile goal. My own personal hunch is to bet against it, but I'm not, thank God, the one to make that call, and my information is limited.

146 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:12:55pm

re: #105 darthstar

And we're worried about them getting nukes?

Yes. Nuclear warheads don't need a surface-to-surface delivery system.

147 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:13:24pm

re: #139 SanFranciscoZionist

We know who Pakistan wants to nuke. They also have nukes. If you have have a Mexican standoff in South Asia, they've got one there.

This is not to say it couldn't all go kablooey in some awful way, but it's a rather stable situation so far, mostly.

Pakistan/India is the traditional mutually assured destruction/stability scenario. Iran's leaders have publicly discussed how they could annihilate Israel with a nuke, and though they would suffer losses in retaliation, some Muslims would survive, so that might be worth pursuing. Pakistan is scary enough, but an arms race with nukes among the middle east countries seems pretty unstable and nightmarish to me.

148 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:14:15pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

Last numbers I read were less than 300 anti-ship missiles and not all of them ready to fire. Iran has less than 40 missile silos.

You're probably limiting your estimate to Exocet class, just one of many that Iran possesses, and not even the nastiest. Your silo estimate is irrelevant since none of the anti-ship missiles fire from silos. They're all truck mountable or hard sited.

Try and imagine it if you can: barrage after barrage of Exocet-class missiles, which the Iranians are known to possess in the hundreds, as well as the unstoppable Sunburn and Yakhonts missiles. The questions that our purblind government leaders should be asking themselves, today, if they value what historians will one day write about them, are two: how many of the Russian anti-ship missiles has Putin already supplied to Iran? And: How many more are currently in the pipeline?

...

The US Navy will come under fire even if the US does not participate in the first so-called surgical raids on Iran’s nuclear sites, that is, even if Israel goes it alone. Israel’s brand-new fleet of 25 F-15s (paid for by American taxpayers) has sufficient range to target Iran, but the Israelis cannot mount an attack without crossing US-occupied Iraqi air space. It will hardly matter if Washington gives the green light, or is dragged into the conflict by a recalcitrant Israel. Either way, the result will be the same. The Iranians will interpret US acquiescence as complicity, and, in any event, they will understand that the real fight is with the Americans.

The Iranians will be entirely within their rights to counter-attack in self-defense. Most of the world will see it this way, and will support them, not America. The US and Israel will be viewed as the aggressors, even as the unfortunate US sailors in harm’s way become cannon fodder. In the Gulf’s shallow and confined waters evasive maneuvers will be difficult, at best, and escape impossible. Even if US planes control of the skies over the battlefield, the sailors caught in the net below will be hard-pressed to survive. The Gulf will run red with American blood.

From here, it only gets worse. Armed with their Russian-supplied cruise missiles, the Iranians will close the lake’s only outlet, the strategic Strait of Hormuz, cutting off the trapped and dying Americans from help and rescue. The US fleet massing in the Indian Ocean will stand by helplessly, unable to enter the Gulf to assist the survivors or bring logistical support to the other US forces on duty in Iraq. Couple this with a major new ground offensive by the Iraqi insurgents, and, quite suddenly, the tables could turn against the Americans in Baghdad. As supplies and ammunition begin to run out, the status of US forces in the region will become precarious. The occupiers will become the besieged.

149 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:15:15pm

Cake walk!

150 blueraven  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:16:19pm

re: #129 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

BTW, my son thanks you too. He came over tonight to show me his new guitar. I played the video for him and he was very much inspired by Jamal.

151 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:16:41pm

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

My problem with all of this is that I really can't get a good gauge, no matter how I try, of how genuinely batshit insane, as opposed to crazy like a fox, those who call the shots inside Iran really are.

I can neither fully accept nor fully discount the idea that Twelfther ideology has persuaded them that Armageddon is a worthwhile goal. My own personal hunch is to bet against it, but I'm not, thank God, the one to make that call, and my information is limited.

True, the messianic end of world BS could just be an attempt to scare everyone. I admit it's working on me. I tend to err on the side of caution and believe someone means it who says they intend to kill or destroy another person or race/culture/religion.

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:19:31pm

re: #151 BryanS

True, the messianic end of world BS could just be an attempt to scare everyone. I admit it's working on me. I tend to err on the side of caution and believe someone means it who says they intend to kill or destroy another person or race/culture/religion.

Maybe not even that cynical. There are a shitload of politicians in the US who believe in the Protestant version of Armageddon, but in real life they get up in the morning and campaign for tax breaks as though Jesus weren't coming back any time soon.

It's possible to truly believe some real messianic apocalyptic stuff and not act on it violently.

153 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:20:21pm

1. Attacking Iran will not be easy or quick. If you think so, you are delusional.

2. We will only delay the nuclear program. Unless you see regime change as the goal of the attack.

3. We will need a ground invasion for 2.

4. ?

5. Cake walk and being treated as liberators blah blah blah.

154 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:22:24pm

re: #152 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe not even that cynical. There are a shitload of politicians in the US who believe in the Protestant version of Armageddon, but in real life they get up in the morning and campaign for tax breaks as though Jesus weren't coming back any time soon.

It's possible to truly believe some real messianic apocalyptic stuff and not act on it violently.

But I agree...it's a hell of a risk to live with, especially given Iran's very blunt threats. Not to mention the fact that you don't actually need to plan on Armageddon to deploy a nuke.

155 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:23:33pm

I'm just sick of the GOP and its allies completely and stupidly underestimating Iranian conventional capabilities.

156 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:23:37pm

re: #153 Varek Raith

1. Attacking Iran will not be easy or quick. If you think so, you are delusional.

2. We will only delay the nuclear program. Unless you see regime change as the goal of the attack.

3. We will need a ground invasion for 2.

4. ?

5. Cake walk and being treated as liberators blah blah blah.

Even if all this turns out to be true, isn't letting Iran point a nuclear weapon at Tel Aviv worse?

That said, 2 isn't proven. Look at Iraq...their nuclear program was destroyed by Israel in 1981 and it never recovered. With Iran already running out of money, they might face a similar situation.

157 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:24:48pm

If the goal was to disrupt the Iranian economy, the sanctions are working. And if Iran ever gets a bomb it will be one they bought from North Korea.

158 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:25:48pm

re: #152 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe not even that cynical. There are a shitload of politicians in the US who believe in the Protestant version of Armageddon, but in real life they get up in the morning and campaign for tax breaks as though Jesus weren't coming back any time soon.

It's possible to truly believe some real messianic apocalyptic stuff and not act on it violently.

The evangelical types do enough damage politically. There are some of them that enable Israel to build settlements by their Biblical understanding of divine right for the Jews to occupy that land. And they hope this development portends the end of the world which can't come soon enough.

So they don't directly threaten to kill everyone, but they are happy to see something like armageddon possibly happen. There are levels of dangerous wackiness--I don't let off the evangelicals, but they aren't the ones that are going to do all the killing directly.

159 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:26:18pm

re: #157 Mich-again

If the goal was to disrupt the Iranian economy, the sanctions are working. And if Iran ever gets a bomb it will be one they bought from North Korea.

Perhaps, but I think they're well on their way to building their own. North Korea is, at least to some small degree, constrained by China. China acts in its own interests to be sure, but they've shown little enthusiasm for allowing more members into the nuclear arms club.

160 blueraven  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:26:30pm

re: #141 BryanS

"Troll attempt: unsuccessful."

Logic attempt: unsuccessful.

You are just ignoring the entirety of that post. Obama made a speech in the days leading up to his upcoming campaign that accused the Bush admin of not exempting New Orleans from the Stafford Act when that exemption passed congress two weeks before his speech and Obama voted against it.

I guess the facts are too damning for you to mount a coherent argument? I asked a serious question--I've not seen any lefties mention this story. I'm just asking for the other side. If you don't know the argument defending against or debunking these accusations, maybe someone else does.

Link to the vote?

161 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:28:52pm

re: #156 The Mongoose

Even if all this turns out to be true, isn't letting Iran point a nuclear weapon at Tel Aviv worse?

That said, 2 isn't proven. Look at Iraq...their nuclear program was destroyed by Israel in 1981 and it never recovered. With Iran already running out of money, they might face a similar situation.

That still leaves us with the GOP and its allies completely underestimating Iran.
You all seem to think this will quick and easy with no region wide consequences.
I see no planning for or talk of said consequences.
It's lunacy.

162 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:29:21pm

re: #160 blueraven

Link to the vote?

The author point out where to look:
[Link: townhall.com...]

If you know any true believers in Obama, show them the transcript of his June 5, 2007 speech at Hampton University (available from the Federal News Service) and then show them page S6823 of the Congressional Record for May 24, 2007, which lists which Senators voted which way on the waiver of the Stafford Act requirement for New Orleans.

I don't know where to find the Congressional record to look up his reference. Thomas Sowell is a conservative, for sure, but I don't think he is so hack-ish that he would cite so specific of a reference that doesn't support his claim. That's one of the reasons I posted and asked the question if any lefties looked into his accusations.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:29:38pm

re: #156 The Mongoose

Even if all this turns out to be true, isn't letting Iran point a nuclear weapon at Tel Aviv worse?

That said, 2 isn't proven. Look at Iraq...their nuclear program was destroyed by Israel in 1981 and it never recovered. With Iran already running out of money, they might face a similar situation.

The argument is that this thing is dug in in a way Osirak was not.

But even delaying the program may eventually seem to Israel like the best bet, if they figure they can get away with it without triggering all hell.

164 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:30:20pm

re: #156 The Mongoose

That said, 2 isn't proven. Look at Iraq...their nuclear program was destroyed by Israel in 1981 and it never recovered.

Osirak was a single un fueled reactor facility, there was never a risk of a widespread radiological disaster in 1981. In comparison Iran has a large, developed program strategically spread out with key facilities hardened and hidden under mountains. You have to identify them all and even then you're virtually guaranteed to poison the entire region both literally in terms of radiological fallout and figuratively against us. The United States would become a worldwide pariah state in perpetuity.

165 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:30:21pm

re: #162 BryanS

Townhall is a wingnut site.
Why should I take them seriously?

166 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:30:55pm

re: #164 goddamnedfrank

Natanz was a single un fueled reactor facility, there was never a risk of a widespread radiological disaster in 1981. In comparison Iran has a large, developed program strategically spread out with key facilities hardened and hidden under mountains. You have to identify them all and even then you're virtually guaranteed to poison the entire region both literally in terms of radiological fallout and figuratively against us. The United States would become a worldwide pariah state in perpetuity.

Cake walk!

167 blueraven  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:31:53pm

re: #162 BryanS

The author point out where to look:
[Link: townhall.com...]

I don't know where to find the Congressional record to look up his reference. Thomas Sowell is a conservative, for sure, but I don't think he is so hack-ish that he would cite so specific of a reference that doesn't support his claim. That's one of the reasons I posted and asked the question if any lefties looked into his accusations.

Well I think he is definitely that hack-ish. This is now all over RW blogs with not one link.

168 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:32:04pm

Osirak was also out in the open.
Can the same be said of Iran's program?
Hint: No.

169 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:32:24pm

re: #165 Varek Raith

Townhall is a wingnut site.
Why should I take them seriously?

[Link: www.gpo.gov...]

This is the vote being mentioned. I'm still sorting it out but it appears to have been a troop funding bill...the Stafford waiver may have been attached.

170 freetoken  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:33:04pm

re: #162 BryanS

Thomas Sowell is a conservative, for sure, but I don't think he is so hack-ish that he would cite so specific of a reference that doesn't support his claim.

That's quite generous of you.

AFAIC, Sowell has taken a deep dive into the ODS pond, driven on I suspect by the deep religious/worldview conflict that runs in the "conservative" circles.

Put bluntly, any and every politician has but one over-riding responsibility - to represent the people in their district/state. And that means sometimes a politician might speak his mind on an issue, but later vote a different way (because he knows that is what a majority of his constituents would want.)

171 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:33:22pm

re: #165 Varek Raith

Townhall is a wingnut site.
Why should I take them seriously?

Because the author is citing a very specific set of facts that should be easily debunked.

And the wiki article description gives some background on Thomas Sowell, who is not known for hackery and is otherwise known as a serious conservative scholar:

Thomas Sowell (born June 30, 1930) is an American economist, social theorist, political philosopher, and author. A National Humanities Medal winner, he advocates laissez-faire economics and writes from a conservative and libertarian perspective. He is currently the Rose and Milton Friedman Senior Fellow on Public Policy at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University.

172 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:33:45pm

re: #168 Varek Raith

Natanz was also out in the open.
Can the same be said of Iran's program?
Hint: No.

I confused Osirak with Natanz, fixed now. SFZ was right. Natanz in the Iranian site.

173 Targetpractice  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:36:04pm

re: #164 goddamnedfrank

Osirak was a single un fueled reactor facility, there was never a risk of a widespread radiological disaster in 1981. In comparison Iran has a large, developed program strategically spread out with key facilities hardened and hidden under mountains. You have to identify them all and even then you're virtually guaranteed to poison the entire region both literally in terms of radiological fallout and figuratively against us. The United States would become a worldwide pariah state in perpetuity.

Between the "preemptive" strikes and the resulting radiological disaster, we should pretty much be prepared to write off the Middle East for a good long while. I mean, if we're gonna go ahead and attack Iran, we might as well go the whole nine and invade. Because any hope we had of a popular uprising that would throw the mullahs out will be blown to smithereens.

174 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:36:24pm

re: #169 The Mongoose

[Link: www.gpo.gov...]

This is the vote being mentioned. I'm still sorting it out but it appears to have been a troop funding bill...the Stafford waiver may have been attached.

That could explain Obama voting against it. If it was a rider to a bill, he may not have liked the other parts. He was one of only 14 voting against it according to the information I referred to. That wouldn't explain him claiming there was no waiver to his audience. I'm guessing with 80+ votes in the Senate, the waiver became law.

175 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:36:33pm

re: #167 blueraven

Well I think he is definitely that hack-ish. This is now all over RW blogs with not one link.

Turns out it was the "U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans' Care, Katrina Recovery, and Iraq Accountability Appropriations Act, 2007".

Link here: [Link: www.senate.gov...]

Then-Senator Obama was one of 14 nays.

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:36:35pm

re: #158 BryanS

The evangelical types do enough damage politically. There are some of them that enable Israel to build settlements by their Biblical understanding of divine right for the Jews to occupy that land. And they hope this development portends the end of the world which can't come soon enough.

So they don't directly threaten to kill everyone, but they are happy to see something like armageddon possibly happen. There are levels of dangerous wackiness--I don't let off the evangelicals, but they aren't the ones that are going to do all the killing directly.

I don't think there's actually a direct link between evangelical ideology and the settlements. Because they like the concept does not mean that they are setting U.S. policy in any way, let along Israeli policy.

But that aside...there's a difference between looking hopefully for signs the world will end, and actually pushing the big red button to get it going. I hope, although I genuinely don't know, that the mullahs are on the sane side of that fence.

177 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:37:14pm

re: #172 goddamnedfrank

I confused Osirak with Natanz, fixed now. SFZ was right. Natanz in the Iranian site.

Edited for correction.
Thanks GDF and SFZ.

178 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:38:21pm

Oy.
I need coffee.

179 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:38:37pm

re: #175 The Mongoose

Turns out it was the "U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans' Care, Katrina Recovery, and Iraq Accountability Appropriations Act, 2007".

Link here: [Link: www.senate.gov...]

Then-Senator Obama was one of 14 nays.

Ahh, Congress. Because, you know, all the things covered in that bill just seemed so logical to group together :)

180 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:39:36pm

re: #171 BryanS

Because the author is citing a very specific set of facts that should be easily debunked.

And the wiki article description gives some background on Thomas Sowell, who is not known for hackery and is otherwise known as a serious conservative scholar:

Then why link to a wingnut site in the first place?
Link to the facts, not to an author with ODS.
:)

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:39:56pm

re: #177 Varek Raith

Edited for correction.
Thanks GDF and SFZ.

Don't thank me, I'm so tired I'm practically hallucinating. Need to get off and go to bed. I just remember the name because the French series or model or whatever it was was called 'Osiris'--if a thesis hasn't been written on what we name nuclear things, it should be--and then they added 'Irak'.

182 Targetpractice  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:39:59pm

re: #179 BryanS

Ahh, Congress. Because, you know, all the things covered in that bill just seemed so logical to group together :)

It's called a "must-pass" bill. As in "Let's lump all this shit together so that anybody who votes against it will be putting his own balls in a vice."

183 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:41:23pm

re: #180 Varek Raith

Then why link to a wingnut site in the first place?
Link to the facts, not to an author with ODS.
:)

In fairness, the author had it right. Still, tracking it down in the senate record was a bit obnoxious but nothing they couldn't have linked to.

184 blueraven  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:41:24pm

re: #175 The Mongoose

Turns out it was the "U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans' Care, Katrina Recovery, and Iraq Accountability Appropriations Act, 2007".

Link here: [Link: www.senate.gov...]

Then-Senator Obama was one of 14 nays.

Yes, well I see no mention of the stafford act waiver. Where is that coming from?

185 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:41:27pm

Class, class. It was an Osiris-class nuclear reactor.

186 freetoken  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:41:55pm

re: #182 Targetpractice

Politics makes for strange bedfellows.

187 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:42:02pm

I'm going to bed now.

188 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:42:30pm

re: #184 blueraven

Yes, well I see no mention of the stafford act waiver. Where is that coming from?

It's in the Katrina Recovery portion. The site is all links within links, deeply irritating but it's there. I am too tired to go grab the specific page, but feel free, you'll find it.

189 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:43:03pm

And with that, good evening at 1:42 AM EST.

190 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:44:09pm

re: #180 Varek Raith

Then why link to a wingnut site in the first place?
Link to the facts, not to an author with ODS.
:)

Well, as I said, didn't know where to look for the voting record. Now that we all can agree on the facts, doesn't it look like Obama was being dishonest when two weeks after that vote he claimed the Bush admin was not willing to exempt New Orleans from the Stafford Act, when he voted against the bill that passed to enable that exemption?

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:44:30pm

re: #187 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going to bed now.

Seriously, weapon names are surreal. India has a whole set of ballistic missile models called "Agni", after the the god of fire.

192 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:46:32pm

Kent Brockman: With our utter annihilation imminent, our federal government has snapped into action. We go live now via satellite to the floor of the United States Congress.

Speaker: Then it is unanimous, we are going to approve the bill to evacuate the town of Springfield in the great state of --

Congressman: Wait a minute, I want to tack on a rider to that bill: $30 million of taxpayer money to support the perverted arts.

Speaker: All in favor of the amended Springfield-slash-pervert bill?

Everyone: BOOOO!

Speaker: Bill defeated.

Kent: I've said it before and I'll say it again: Democracy simply doesn't work.

193 freetoken  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:46:45pm

re: #190 BryanS

Now that we all can agree on the facts, doesn't it look like Obama was being dishonest when two weeks after that vote he claimed the Bush admin was not willing to exempt New Orleans from the Stafford Act, when he voted against the bill that passed to enable that exemption?

No.

Likely Obama voted against it for some other reason.

194 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:47:39pm

re: #184 blueraven

Yes, well I see no mention of the stafford act waiver. Where is that coming from?

From the link posted showing the vote record, you can get to the final passed language:

[Link: www.gpo.gov...]

SEC. 4501. (a) IN GENERAL.—Notwithstanding any other provi- sion of law, including any agreement, the Federal share of assist- ance, including direct Federal assistance, provided for the States of Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, and Texas in connection with Hurricanes Katrina, Wilma, Dennis, and Rita under sections 403, 406, 407, and 408 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5170b, 5172, 5173, and 5174) shall be 100 percent of the eligible costs under such sections.

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:47:52pm

The Iranians give their stuff less weird names, but they apparently held something called the "Holy Prophet Wargames" back in 2006.

I prefer "roses of the Prophet Mohammed pastries", which is apparently what danish were called when the Iranians were mad at the Danes about the Mohammed cartoons.

People are insane.

The US, meanwhile, obsessively names military stuff for Native American tribes, which a psychiatrist could have a field day with.

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:49:18pm

OK, really, bed now.

197 blueraven  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:49:40pm

re: #183 The Mongoose

In fairness, the author had it right. Still, tracking it down in the senate record was a bit obnoxious but nothing they couldn't have linked to.

what did he have right?
I dont see a stafford act vote

re: #190 BryanS

Well, as I said, didn't know where to look for the voting record. Now that we all can agree on the facts, doesn't it look like Obama was being dishonest when two weeks after that vote he claimed the Bush admin was not willing to exempt New Orleans from the Stafford Act, when he voted against the bill that passed to enable that exemption?

No. When you or one of your wingnut friends can link to a specific vote against waving the stafford act, then we can discuss it.

198 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:50:31pm

re: #193 freetoken

No.

Likely Obama voted against it for some other reason.

His dishonesty was in claiming that the Bush admin did not do something that they did in fact do. And he had to know what he was saying was wrong because he voted on the issue two weeks before his speech. And in not so subtle ways, he suggested this was the result of discrimination against the residents of New Orleans. That seems exceedingly dishonest to me.

199 Targetpractice  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:50:33pm

Think I'll also head off for the evening.

Hold my calls.

200 blueraven  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:51:56pm

re: #198 BryanS

His dishonesty was in claiming that the Bush admin did not do something that they did in fact do. And he had to know what he was saying was wrong because he voted on the issue two weeks before his speech. And in not so subtle ways, he suggested this was the result of discrimination against the residents of New Orleans. That seems exceedingly dishonest to me.

You are dishonest, you have no facts, only some bullshit article

201 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:51:59pm

The bad guys had unfettered looks at all the documents left at the consulate. This may well have been known to them already.

202 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:52:13pm

re: #197 blueraven

what did he have right? I dont see a stafford act votere: #190 BryanS

No. When you or one of your wingnut friends can link to a specific vote against waving the stafford act, then we can discuss it.

Logic fail. The Mongoose linked to the vote record:
[Link: www.senate.gov...]

Following those links, you can find the text of the law which I linked to
[Link: www.gpo.gov...]

203 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:52:41pm

re: #201 lostlakehiker

The bad guys had unfettered looks at all the documents left at the consulate. This may well have been known to them already.

Nice try.

204 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:53:16pm

re: #200 blueraven

You are dishonest, you have no facts, only some bullshit article

More logic fail. It is so obvious by this point, that I know I have won when you deny the facts laying right in front of your face.

205 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:53:37pm

re: #193 freetoken

You can't in fairness call someone else racist for voting the same way you did.

206 freetoken  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:54:41pm

You ask for it, you get it - well, you didn't really ask for it but you're going to get it anyway - tonight's longhair musical break.

Earlier I mentioned Saint-Saens' (opus 4) Mass, to bookend last night's Gounod's Mass, but instead I'm going to go with Saint-Saens' much later work, Requiem. I've been listening to it tonight and find it to be a really attractive combination of choral and instrumental sounds (and not so heavy on the organ, unlike his Mass.) The last section, "Agnus" (starts around 27:00 in this recording) is popular enough to be found individually in plenty of releases.

MP3 Audio
207 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:54:57pm

Not surprised our resident Republicans don't want to talk about their party compromising national security to stick it to Obama.

209 blueraven  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:57:07pm

re: #204 BryanS

More logic fail. It is so obvious by this point, that I know I have won when you deny the facts laying right in front of your face.

Troll

This is all bullshit.

210 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:57:30pm

re: #202 BryanS

Logic fail. The Mongoose linked to the vote record:
[Link: www.senate.gov...]

Following those links, you can find the text of the law which I linked to
[Link: www.gpo.gov...]

There's nothing about a Stafford Act waiver in that legislation.

Nothing.

211 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:57:34pm

re: #207 Varek Raith

Not surprised our resident Republicans don't want to talk about their party compromising national security to stick it to Obama.

Meh...I did acknowledge in my first post that it is bad for them to disclose intelligence in a public hearing. They needed to have this hearing to hold the administration accountable, and they should have done more to protect the intelligence. There really is no defending allowing intelligence out like this--whichever side does it.

212 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:57:59pm

re: #195 SanFranciscoZionist

We admire the plains tribes for their martial virtues. They did, after all, bring off some pretty amazing feats of arms against good soldiers who had vastly superior technology and the advantage of many more centuries of military experience to draw upon.

We admire the Cherokee for their prescient adaption of reading and writing.

We admire other tribes for a host of other reasons.

Not much there for the psychiatrist. If he knows that history, he probably admires them too.

213 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:59:35pm

re: #211 BryanS

Meh...I did acknowledge in my first post that it is bad for them to disclose intelligence in a public hearing. They needed to have this hearing to hold the administration accountable, and they should have done more to protect the intelligence. There really is no defending allowing intelligence out like this--whichever side does it.

But the GOP clearly didn't care.
It's all about destroying Obama at any cost.

214 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 10:59:48pm

re: #210 goddamnedfrank

There's nothing about a Stafford Act waiver in that legislation.

Nothing.

Wow, the denial is think. I even quoted the relevant text for you upthread. I'll quote it again:

SEC. 4501. (a) IN GENERAL.—Notwithstanding any other provi- sion of law, including any agreement, the Federal share of assist- ance, including direct Federal assistance, provided for the States of Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, and Texas in connection with Hurricanes Katrina, Wilma, Dennis, and Rita under sections 403, 406, 407, and 408 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5170b, 5172, 5173, and 5174) shall be 100 percent of the eligible costs under such sections.

Obama claimed in his speech that was two weeks after this bill that he voted against that it was unfair New Orleans was not exempted from the 10% funding requirement under the Stafford Act. The legislation clearly spells out funding levels to be 100% for New Orleans.

215 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:00:14pm

re: #208 Big Joe

Color me shocked.

But Bolling's attack is way off base. Then-Senator Obama did vote to waive the Stafford Act for Katrina relief. In fact, he was one of the Senate's major proponents for waiving the Stafford Act.

In 2007, two similar supplemental spending bills contained funding for Katrina relief that was not subject to Stafford Act restriction. At the time Obama opposed one version of the bill because it did not contain a timeline for U.S. withdrawal from Iraq. In a May 24, 2007, statement explaining his vote against the U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans' Care, Katrina Recovery, and Iraq Accountability Appropriations Act, Obama said: "With my vote today, I am saying to the President that enough is enough. We must negotiate a better plan that funds our troops, signals to the Iraqis that it is time for them to act and that begins to bring our brave servicemen and women home safely and responsibly."

While Obama voted against the 2007 supplemental spending bill Eric Bolling is referring to, he voted for the other version of the supplemental bill that included both a timetable for U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq and a waiver for the Stafford Act that would provide relief to New Orleans.

In fact, Obama was a strong, consistent proponent of waiving the Stafford Act for Katrina recovery. According to the New Orleans Times-Picayune (accessed via Nexis), Obama had called for unrestricted relief funding in January of 2007:

216 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:01:57pm

re: #213 Varek Raith

But the GOP clearly didn't care.
It's all about destroying Obama at any cost.

That's part of it--they are politicians and that inclination runs deep in elected officials. They should know better. But a hearing was necessary and in order considering the appearance of the admin appearing to mislead the public. Maybe there is a good explanation for their apparent misleading, but we haven't really heard a good one yet.

217 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:02:22pm

re: #214 BryanS

Your entire argument is based on a misrepresentation of what happened.
Just thought you should know.
;)

218 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:03:26pm

re: #216 BryanS

That's part of it--they are politicians and that inclination runs deep in elected officials. They should know better. But a hearing was necessary and in order considering the appearance of the admin appearing to mislead the public. Maybe there is a good explanation for their apparent misleading, but we haven't really heard a good one yet.

You keep telling yourself that.

219 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:03:29pm

re: #217 Varek Raith

Your entire argument is based on a misrepresentation of what happened.
Just thought you should know.
;)

What was the misrepresentation?

220 efuseakay  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:03:40pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Half the middle east. pshaw! And I'd more think our ruthlessness would cut back in such incidents. They would, but greater still would be their fear.

Yeah. Shock and Awe works so well as a deterrent.

221 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:08:01pm

Ah, here we go:

In 2007, two similar supplemental spending bills contained funding for Katrina relief that was not subject to Stafford Act restriction. At the time Obama opposed one version of the bill because it did not contain a timeline for U.S. withdrawal from Iraq. In a May 24, 2007, statement explaining his vote against the U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans' Care, Katrina Recovery, and Iraq Accountability Appropriations Act, Obama said: "With my vote today, I am saying to the President that enough is enough. We must negotiate a better plan that funds our troops, signals to the Iraqis that it is time for them to act and that begins to bring our brave servicemen and women home safely and responsibly."

While Obama voted against the 2007 supplemental spending bill Eric Bolling is referring to, he voted for the other version of the supplemental bill that included both a timetable for U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq and a waiver for the Stafford Act that would provide relief to New Orleans.

In fact, Obama was a strong, consistent proponent of waiving the Stafford Act for Katrina recovery. According to the New Orleans Times-Picayune (accessed via Nexis), Obama had called for unrestricted relief funding in January of 2007:

Lieberman and Landrieu were joined by Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., a presidential hopeful who made the most of the opportunity offered by a swarming international media to say he was "embarrassed" by the White House's handling of Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath.

[...]

At the hearing Monday, Obama seemed unsatisfied with many of the answers Powell gave. Asked why the federal government had not waived the requirement of a 10 percent matching payment from local governments for cleanup and public buildings, as it had for Hurricane Andrew in 1992 and the 2001 terrorist attacks on New York, Powell said it didn't need to because the state could pay the match using federal money.

It should be noted that this wasn't a waiver on all of the Katrina Aid, it was just one specific amount of additional aid not subject to the limit. The original aid still required the matching payment.

222 efuseakay  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:08:30pm

Where were Republicans demanding accountability when our Marine barracks was bombed in Beirut? My, how times have changed.

223 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:10:12pm

re: #219 BryanS

What was the misrepresentation?

See #221.

224 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:14:18pm

re: #221 goddamnedfrank

Ah, here we go:

It should be noted that this wasn't a waiver on all of the Katrina Aid, it was just one specific amount of additional aid not subject to the limit. The original aid still required the matching payment.

The article I linked to, the argument I and the author was making, was not that Obama was a hypocrite. I even acknowledged the sausage like process of legislation and noted that he may have voted against the bill if the issue was a rider to other legislation he disagreed with.

However, Obama was lying when he said that that funding at 100% was not offered. I will include the next lines in the text of the legislation which makes it even more clear:

SEC. 4501. (a) IN GENERAL.—Notwithstanding any other provi- sion of law, including any agreement, the Federal share of assist- ance, including direct Federal assistance, provided for the States of Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, and Texas in connection with Hurricanes Katrina, Wilma, Dennis, and Rita under sections 403, 406, 407, and 408 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5170b, 5172, 5173, and 5174) shall be 100 percent of the eligible costs under such sections.
(b) APPLICABILITY.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—The Federal share provided by subsection
(a) shall apply to disaster assistance applied for before the date of enactment of this Act.

The clear meaning of the text of this bill was to include prior spending in this relief. I still don't see how Obama's claim that 100% funding was not available to New Orleans after this legislation passed.

225 BryanS  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:16:06pm

I do have to head in. Thanx goddamnedfrank for actually responding with real criticism rather than just accusing me of trolling. I still think I'm right, but maybe overnight you will prove me wrong :)

226 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:29:35pm

re: #224 BryanS

The clear meaning of the text of this bill was to include prior spending in this relief. I still don't see how Obama's claim that 100% funding was not available to New Orleans after this legislation passed.

You clearly don't get the Stafford Act's matching fund requirement. All the section you quoted says is that the federal share of funds in that legislation will be made available for applications for relief submitted prior to the Act's passage. It in no way retroactively waives the matching fund requirement for earlier aid packages. The key word here is "Federal share," distinguishing it from the State's matching fund share.

227 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:29:43pm

re: #225 BryanS

I do have to head in. Thanx goddamnedfrank for actually responding with real criticism rather than just accusing me of trolling. I still think I'm right, but maybe overnight you will prove me wrong :)

You were trolling. You came into a thread talking about this instance of idiocy by the House Republicans, and immediately tried to change the subject to "Hey guys, Obama is so dishonest!!! Can you prove to me he isn't???"

You were more successful trolling some of the others into taking you seriously. Fortunately, I had to take my computer apart so I wasn't around for most of it.

228 SteveMcG  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:37:07pm

If you get a chance, and you can listen online (xpn.org), WXPN in Philadelphia is doing an 885 best rock song countdown. Ho-hum, you say? 'xpn is a member funded college radio station that plays a lot of stuff that's just not my taste, but I still tap it when I go around the dial on the off chance they're playing something special. On the cliche' rock stations, if they do a countdown, you can't even tell because it's the same stuff they're always wearing out. This countdown is different. The songs were picked by nerds and geeks and all kinds of weirdos, so it's really fascinating. Sure, there are some regular songs, but when's the last time "Loan me a Dime" got played on the radio? Neat thing is they stop the countdown overnight so you don't miss most of it.
Side effect of this is that going through the list, I am finding all kinds of songs I had forgotten about or never even heard of. Any other countdown is usually just a ho-hum affair, but on this one, they played "Supper's Ready" and "Echoes". A lot of the songs they are playing are alternate takes or live recordings. All in all, a very cool thing for them to do.

229 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:41:30pm

Newest Quinnipiac/CBS/NYT poll was apparently leaked early:

Scribd Document

Obama actually gained a point in Virginia, leading 51-46. He's down 3 points in Wisconsin, still winning 50-47 (1 point better than pre-convention poll), and he's losing in Colorado 47-48 (last poll was 48-47 Obama).

Overwhelming majority said Romney won the debate (duh), but most of those people said it had no effect on their voting.

PANIC

230 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:45:05pm

re: #217 Varek Raith

Your entire argument is based on a misrepresentation of what happened absolute, unvarnished bullshit.
Just thought you should know.
;)

FTFY...for Bryan's sake.

The MBF union must be having open membership or something...

231 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:45:13pm

re: #229 JamesWI

I'd also like to remind everyone that the Suffolk University pollster said there was no absolutely no chance Obama could win Virginia, so it's not even worth polling there any more. lulz

232 HappyWarrior  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:48:43pm

re: #229 JamesWI

Newest Quinnipiac/CBS/NYT poll was apparently leaked early:

[Embedded content]

Obama actually gained a point in Virginia, leading 51-46. He's down 3 points in Wisconsin, still winning 50-47 (1 point better than pre-convention poll), and he's losing in Colorado 47-48 (last poll was 48-47 Obama).

Overwhelming majority said Romney won the debate (duh), but most of those people said it had no effect on their voting.

PANIC

Interesting stuff.

233 HappyWarrior  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:49:30pm

re: #231 JamesWI

I'd also like to remind everyone that the Suffolk University pollster said there was no absolutely no chance Obama could win Virginia, so it's not even worth polling there any more. lulz

Yeah, I wouldn't listen to any pollster that says that either. Wouldn't listen to any pollster who said the same about Romney either for that matter.

234 engineer cat  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:52:23pm

the data points are fewer, but in 2004 the bounce that kerry got from the first debate was at its highest 11 days after the first debate, and was way gone by 17 days after, on oct 16th - although there are no data points between these days. the veep debate was 6 days after and the 2nd presidential debate 9 days after the first

it is now 7 days after the first debate this year. the veep debate will be 8 days and the 2nd debate 13 days after the first on the 16th. 11 days after the first debate this year will of course be the 14th, 17 days will be the 20th, and 9 days after the 2nd debate will be oct 25th

so lets give it 10 or 15 days to settle out

235 engineer cat  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:56:45pm

re: #229 JamesWI

imho the best thing the obama campaign did was to focus on its advantage in ohio

236 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:59:24pm

That poll also shows most people in those three states think Biden is going to lose tomorrow's debate (though not as bad as people thought Romney would lose), so he's got the low expectations going for him again.

Other interesting points:

- Obama has big advantages in who people think is trustworthy and honest, as well as people thinking he actually cares about the issues affecting the voters.

- Over 60% of voters in all three states don't think Romney has "clearly explained" his plans, so it looks like people aren't buying his bullshit. (Obama's numbers there are still below 50%, but just barely)

-Obama's favorables are clearly higher than Romney's in Virginia and Wisconsin, only 1 point more favorable in Colorado.

- Over 2/3s of likely voters in all three states don't think they're being taxed too much, and a majority think upper-income people don't pay enough.

237 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 10, 2012 11:59:57pm

Mitt Romney tries to dry hump dead SEAL for political gain, fails:

Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney will no longer bring up Glen Doherty, a former Navy SEAL killed in the Sept. 11 attack on the U.S. consulate in Libya, the campaign said Wednesday in response to a complaint from Doherty's mother.

...

Boston's WHDH later reached out to Doherty's mother, Barbara, to get her reaction to Romney's campaign trail anecdote.

"I don't trust Romney. He shouldn't make my son's death part of his political agenda," she told WHDH. "It's wrong to use these brave young men, who wanted freedom for all, to degrade Obama.”

...

"Mitt Romney approached him ultimately four times, using this private gathering as a political venture to further his image," Ellefsen told KIRO. "He kept introducing himself as Mitt Romney, a political figure. The same introduction, the same opening line ... [Doherty] said it was pathetic and comical to have the same person come up to you within only a half hour, have this person reintroduce himself to you, having absolutely no idea whatsoever that he just did this 20 minutes ago, and did not even recognize Glen's face."

238 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:05:03am

re: #236 JamesWI

That poll also shows most people in those three states think Biden is going to lose tomorrow's debate (though not as bad as people thought Romney would lose), so he's got the low expectations going for him again.

Other interesting points:

- Obama has big advantages in who people think is trustworthy and honest, as well as people thinking he actually cares about the issues affecting the voters.

- Over 60% of voters in all three states don't think Romney has "clearly explained" his plans, so it looks like people aren't buying his bullshit. (Obama's numbers there are still below 50%, but just barely)

-Obama's favorables are clearly higher than Romney's in Virginia and Wisconsin, only 1 point more favorable in Colorado.

- Over 2/3s of likely voters in all three states don't think they're being taxed too much, and a majority think upper-income people don't pay enough.

Good let them underestimate Biden because I think Biden is going to do pretty good tomorrow and I think he's going to expose Ryan for the fake budget hawk he is.

239 JamesWI  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:08:04am

re: #238 HappyWarrior

Good let them underestimate Biden because I think Biden is going to do pretty good tomorrow and I think he's going to expose Ryan for the fake budget hawk he is.

Also, apparently the moderator knows her stuff on foreign policy, so if the questions start going there, you've gotta think Ryan is screwed. Zero foreign policy experience, and the guy at the top of the ticket has no real plan to fall back on.

240 JamesWI  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:08:33am

Edit: The moderator knows HER stuff

241 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:10:36am

re: #236 JamesWI

- Over 2/3s of likely voters in all three states don't think they're being taxed too much, and a majority think upper-income people don't pay enough.

somehow the overwhelming support we see in so many polls for democratic policies doesn't translate into votes. i don't get it, really

242 JamesWI  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:12:43am

re: #241 engineer cat

somehow the overwhelming support we see in so many polls for democratic policies doesn't translate into votes. i don't get it, really

But in this election, it has a chance to, since the "fairness" of taxing the richest has become one of the biggest points of the election...and Romney's on the wrong end of it.

243 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:13:37am

re: #241 engineer cat

somehow the overwhelming support we see in so many polls for democratic policies doesn't translate into votes. i don't get it, really

Obama's black and average American intelligence is appallingly low.

244 JamesWI  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:14:18am

Every time Romney opens his mouth about how the rich can't take paying a cent more, over half the people in the swing states are rolling their eyes. That's gotta count for some extra votes.

245 engineer cat  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:15:10am

re: #242 JamesWI

But in this election, it has a chance to, since the "fairness" of taxing the richest has become on of the biggest points of the election...and Romney's on the wrong end of it.

yeah, definitely - after 30 years republicans have finally found themselves on the wrong side on tax issues

246 JamesWI  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:22:38am

Interesting story on Martha Raddatz, the moderator tomorrow. Apparently she likes to "mix it up" with her interview subjects and press them for real answers. I could see that working to get under Ryan's skin more than Biden (see that video from the other day of Ryan acting like a jerk because a reporter asked him a question he didn't like) when he tries to weasel out of giving specifics.

She's also never moderated a debate before, so she's probably going to revert back to her reporter instincts more than a few times. Bad news for Ryan if he wants to lie as much as Romney. He'll have a moderator that might actually call him out for it.

247 freetoken  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:31:35am

re: #246 JamesWI

The Debate commission though has probably tied her hands.

I expect only a marginally more engaging interaction than the previous "debate".

248 JamesWI  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:33:20am

re: #247 freetoken

The Debate commission though has probably tied her hands.

I expect only a marginally more engaging interaction than the previous "debate".

The comments section of that page is already filled with wingnuts whining about hows she's obviously going to be in the tank for Obama/Biden. lulz

249 freetoken  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:34:29am

re: #248 JamesWI

But wasn't Jim Lehrer supposed to be some far left radical? He has worked for PBS most of his career, after all.

250 JamesWI  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:35:31am

re: #249 freetoken

But wasn't Jim Lehrer supposed to be some far left radical? He has worked for PBS most of his career, after all.

"But Obama was at her wedding 20+ years ago!!!! She can't be fair! She's already probably given Biden all the questions" - The wingnuts in the comments

251 JamesWI  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:36:34am

Basically, any moderator who isn't from Fox News will immediately be seen as in the tank for Obama.

252 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:37:43am

re: #251 JamesWI

Basically, any moderator who isn't from Fox News will immediately be seen as in the tank for Obama.

Damn took the words out of my mouth and even then if that person isn't Hannity or Bolling, that still may be the case. There are a lot of right wing nuts who don't like Shep Smith because he calls out right wing bullshit from time to time for what it is.

253 freetoken  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:38:41am

re: #251 JamesWI

During the GOP Primary debates, a couple of the Fox-ites did a decent job. Heck, Wallace probably would have been much better than Lehrer.

254 JamesWI  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:42:16am

re: #253 freetoken

During the GOP Primary debates, a couple of the Fox-ites did a decent job. Heck, Wallace probably would have been much better than Lehrer.

Key word being GOP. No way would I trust Wallace to be fair when there's a Democrat involved.

255 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:42:55am

I was actually pretty disappointed in Lehrer. I think he could have asked more social issue questions which I think is perfectly reasonable given the actions of the GOP controlled House and GOP controlled legislatures around the country. Not that I don't find the deficit important, I do, but there were other topics that I think he avoided which was unfortunate as this was the only domestic issues only debate/

256 freetoken  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:46:09am

I see that the racist right currently have their collective undies in a knot over the disparaging obits the recently deceased J. Philippe Rushton has received. Rushton was one of their heroes.

Rushton was quite the work, and one can see by the edits on his Wiki page that there is no end of his supporters out to portray him as a hero against what they term a "new dark age", this one brought on supposedly by "political correctness".

Rushton was one of the so called race-realists who loved to interpret data selectively, and his supporters show their cards all too easily when his blatantly racist statements are dismissed by them out of hand.

257 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 12:47:58am

re: #256 freetoken

I see that the racist right currently have their collective undies in a knot over the disparaging obits the recently deceased J. Philippe Rushton has received. Rushton was one of their heroes.

Rushton was quite the work, and one can see by the edits on his Wiki page that there is no end of his supporters out to portray him as a hero against what they term a "new dark age", this one brought on supposedly by "political correctness".

Rushton was one of the so called race-realists who loved to interpret data selectively, and his supporters show their cards all too easily when his blatantly racist statements are dismissed by them out of hand.

The wingers always bitch about what they call political correctness but they flip out if anyone makes even a joke about their religion.

258 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 1:01:42am

re: #236 JamesWI

- Over 2/3s of likely voters in all three states don't think they're being taxed too much, and a majority think upper-income people don't pay enough.

Remember that Romney wound up paying more taxes in 2011 than he had to - a tacit admission on his part that he does not pay enough in taxes (although in this case it was simply a matter of political expediency - he can recoup the money on his 2012 returns)

259 freetoken  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 1:02:52am

Let me take this opportunity to draw attention to my earlier posting of a link to Saint-Saen's Requiem, which I offered as a follow-up to last night's posting of Gounod's Messe solenelle a Sainte-Cecile.

Not only are these big and beautiful works, but I think they can be used as a spring board for the following. If you're a fan of LOTR you probably have the soundtracks, but not too long ago H.S. reworked the scores into one integrated symphony, of Wagnerian proportions, and re-recorded it (as well as conducting it live in limited locales.) To my ear, H.S. and many other cinema composers have been mostly reworking musical ideas from the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Now, that kind of thing is true in all of art - artists always borrow from others. In this case, on top of the big luscious sounds of a massive orchestra with all the bells (literally) and whistles (sometimes literally), and adding in big choirs (a la the Mass) as needed, cinema scores tend strongly to romantic melodies. It's rare to find cinema music (for popular films) that use lots of atonal music or other experimental forms.

Anyway, this is your lucky night - here is the Shore super-symphony:

MP3 Audio
260 researchok  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 1:13:56am

Morning, all

261 JamesWI  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 1:19:03am
262 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 1:41:55am

Can't stop for long -- just read through the thread and think it's hilarious that the right wing is coming up with some incredibly convoluted argument that Obama may once have voted for a law that technically reduced the federal share of funding for something, while maintaining the state level of funding that previously obtained, except that in fact later on in the bill the federal level of funding was also maintained at the same previous level...

While on the other channel, you've got Romney saying, in the space of 10 seconds, that he wants to increase the number of teachers in America and cut the number of teachers in America.

Desperate times call for desperate measures I suppose.

263 researchok  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 1:51:07am

re: #259 freetoken


Download keeps crapping out!

ARGGH!!

The piece is lush, for sure.

I'll try later today.

264 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 2:16:37am

re: #261 JamesWI

"How do I shame someone who publicly admits he thinks Ayn Rand is a good writer?" -- Joe Biden, hitting the debate prep wall

Tricky; Ryan could simply claim that she is not a great writer, he just admires the strength of her ideas...

265 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 3:30:52am

Ayn Rand killed the thread, I see...later

266 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 4:14:26am

Oh hai Lizardim.

The garage door is busted, my car is stuck inside. So I took Zedushka's car, which I had to totally adjust the seat and mirrors. I don't like his car much, I have an SUV, but it's newer than mine and got me to work OK.

267 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 4:15:24am

Horses got out, better close them barn doors...

268 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 4:45:02am

re: #148 goddamnedfrank

You're probably limiting your estimate to Exocet class, just one of many that Iran possesses, and not even the nastiest. Your silo estimate is irrelevant since none of the anti-ship missiles fire from silos. They're all truck mountable or hard sited.

Did you even read the top of the article you cited?

The rush to war against the peaceful and innocent nation of Iran is proceeding at almost breakneck speed now. Israel is looking for anything to try to force their puppets in the US Government into either supporting their planned strike on Iran, or for the US to launch the war against Iran themselves. There still is the fear that the insane Israeli leadership will launch a new false flag against an American target, and have it conveniently blamed on Iran as their sick method for getting the US directly involved, and to get their war off and running...

I have read many reports over the last few years about how this war against Iran, if and when it gets off and running, would be fought and the type of weaponry used by both sides in the fight. There has been one weapon that the Iranians possess in their large arsenal of missiles that many in the US military have great concern about, and it could definitely decide the outcome of an actual shooting war very quickly... That weapon is the Russian developed and built SS-N-22 "Sunburn" supersonic missile.

I came across the following report from the website: From The Trenches World Report, at [Link: www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com,...] entitled: "The Sunburn Missile: The Weapon That Could Defeat The US In The Gulf", and I want to share it right here with my own readers. It gives a very alarming view of this weapon that could easily defeat the US naval forces assembled in the region for the upcoming strike on Iran. I have my own thoughts and views to follow:

Such a biased source is hardly likely to be reliable. Moreover, it discounts the anti-missile stopping power of the USN AEGIS system. Our ability to track and engage hostile missiles is without peer save only Japan and South Korea, who also use AEGIS. The USN has been planning for large scale missile battles for decades, and Iran hasn't.

269 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 4:49:13am

re: #268 Dark_Falcon

Did you even read the top of the article you cited?

Such a biased source is hardly likely to be reliable. Moreover, it discounts the anti-missile stopping power of the USN AEGIS system. Our ability to track and engage hostile missiles is without peer save only Japan and South Korea, who also use AEGIS. The USN has been planning for large scale missile battles for decades, and Iran hasn't.

So what you're saying is, the boys will be home by Christmas?

Sounds great. Where do I sign up?

First World War Poetry

270 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 4:53:39am

re: #269 iossarian

No, I'm saying that Goddamnedfrank used a bad source. I'm also saying that if Iran decides to fire missiles at the US Navy Iran is going to get worsted in the exchange. Will they do some damage? Yes. But they'll get pulverized in so doing.

271 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 4:55:48am

re: #270 Dark_Falcon

No, I'm saying that Goddamnedfrank used a bad source. I'm also saying that if Iran decides to fire missiles at the US Navy Iran is going to get worsted in the exchange. Will they do some damage? Yes. But they'll get pulverized in so doing.

You appear to be implying that, should we decide to attack Iran, it will be a straightforward business with no long-term problems arising. But if that's not your implication and you accept that attacking Iran would in all likelihood lead to far greater problems than those we have faced over the past decade in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm happy to let it drop.

272 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:00:30am

I just don't believe that Israel is able to manipulate the U.S. into attacking Iran on its behalf. That just won't happen.

273 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:00:35am

re: #270 Dark_Falcon

No, I'm saying that Goddamnedfrank used a bad source. I'm also saying that if Iran decides to fire missiles at the US Navy Iran is going to get worsted in the exchange. Will they do some damage? Yes. But they'll get pulverized in so doing.

In part this is because of our advanced anti-radar capability, gained in great measure thanks to our new EA-18G Growler Electronic Warfare aircraft. The Growler can find anti-ship missile batteries radar systems with its sophisticated radar detection suite and then destroy them with the very latest in anti-radiation missiles, the AGM-88E ALARM.

274 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:03:09am

re: #271 iossarian

You appear to be implying that, should we decide to attack Iran, it will be a straightforward business with no long-term problems arising.

I do indeed believe that, or at least that any long term problems will be no worse than the problems Iran gives us already.

275 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:05:10am

re: #273 Dark_Falcon

In part this is because of our advanced anti-radar capability, gained in great measure thanks to our new EA-18G Growler Electronic Warfare aircraft. The Growler can find anti-ship missile batteries radar systems with its sophisticated radar detection suite and then destroy them with the very latest in anti-radiation missiles, the AGM-88E ALARM.

Not really interested in the specifics. If you're claiming that attacking Iran won't lead to trouble on a similar, if not greater, scale to that faced in Iraq and Afghanistan, well, I don't really know what else to say to you, other than that historically, your optimism seems misplaced.

276 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:07:34am

re: #272 Sheila Broflovski

I just don't believe that Israel is able to manipulate the U.S. into attacking Iran on its behalf. That just won't happen.

I don't think that Israel could directly "manipulate" the U.S., but I do believe there are plenty of people on the right who are stupid enough to think that starting a fight with Iran is the smart thing to do, and that they would happily use Israel as a pretext to do just that.

The military industry has a huge incentive to push a military solution. To adapt the old saying, when your job is selling hammers, every person's problem looks like a nail.

277 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:08:35am

re: #272 Sheila Broflovski

I just don't believe that Israel is able to manipulate the U.S. into attacking Iran on its behalf. That just won't happen.

Unless Romney wins. Seriously, the guy has no concern for military members--cold as ice when he talks about anything having to do with the military. The wingnuts are in full "domino theory" panic mode too, so I could see a Romney administration being easily coaxed into attacking Iran.

278 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:11:07am

re: #274 Dark_Falcon

I do indeed believe that, or at least that any long term problems will be no worse than the problems Iran gives us already.

I don't know how you can possibly come up with a calculation of the human and financial cost, over the past 10 years, of "dealing with Iran", that would come anywhere close to the cost of initiating war with them.

279 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:12:42am

re: #276 iossarian

My husband's in the Air Force, and they want nothing to do with Iran. Just sayin'

280 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:13:36am

Again, the best thing to do regarding Iran is to lay out a clear 'red line', and I think the best one is the further enrichment of uranium from mid-grade to high-grade (weapons-grade) enrichment. As long as Iran refrains from enriching uranium such as to be suitable for a nuclear weapon, military measures will not be used. But if they cross that line, then they will have clearly decided to build a nuclear bomb. In that case, we would destroy the enrichment facilities to prevent that outcome.

281 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:16:25am

re: #279 funky chicken

My husband's in the Air Force, and they want nothing to do with Iran. Just sayin'

I think the problem is more with the CEOs of bomb-making companies. I don't always agree with military leaders or indeed the rank-and-file, but equally I don't always disagree with them either, and they have the advantage of having a relatively firm grasp of the facts on the ground, and a good understanding of the human cost involved.

282 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:16:40am

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Again, the best thing to do regarding Iran is to lay out a clear 'red line', and I think the best one is the further enrichment of uranium from mid-grade to high-grade (weapons-grade) enrichment. As long as Iran refrains from enriching uranium such as to be suitable for a nuclear weapon, military measures will not be used. But if they cross that line, then they will have clearly decided to build a nuclear bomb. In that case, we would destroy the enrichment facilities to prevent that outcome.

Maybe there will be some tubes or something laying around we will see that will provide a good excuse to attack. Stick with what has worked in the past.

283 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:17:20am

re: #279 funky chicken

My husband's in the Air Force, and they want nothing to do with Iran. Just sayin'

We need a long expensive period of rebuild before we're ready to attack Lichtenstein. Our soldiers are committing suicide at about twice the rate they were at the beginning of the current wars. When last I was able to see into Anniston Army Depot's and Lima's numbers we had a backlog of a couple of years of armor rebuilds on the lots.

284 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:17:44am

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Again, the best thing to do regarding Iran is to lay out a clear 'red line', and I think the best one is the further enrichment of uranium from mid-grade to high-grade (weapons-grade) enrichment. As long as Iran refrains from enriching uranium such as to be suitable for a nuclear weapon, military measures will not be used. But if they cross that line, then they will have clearly decided to build a nuclear bomb. In that case, we would destroy the enrichment facilities to prevent that outcome.

OK, now let's have the fiscally responsible part of the kitchen-table budget discussion (to use a couple of words conservatives like).

- How much will a war with Iran cost?
- How are we going to pay for it?

285 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:18:49am

re: #284 iossarian

OK, now let's have the fiscally responsible part of the kitchen-table budget discussion (to use a couple of words conservatives like).

- How much will a war with Iran cost?
- How are we going to pay for it?

The GOP are all whining about a "16 Trillion deficit" and they think the best way to reduce that is by cutting off funding to PBS.

286 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:19:31am

re: #284 iossarian

OK, now let's have the fiscally responsible part of the kitchen-table budget discussion (to use a couple of words conservatives like).

- How much will a war with Iran cost?
- How are we going to pay for it?

Tax the unemployed.

287 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:19:34am

re: #284 iossarian

OK, now let's have the fiscally responsible part of the kitchen-table budget discussion (to use a couple of words conservatives like).

- How much will a war with Iran cost?
- How are we going to pay for it?

1. It will pay for itself.
2. It will pay for itself.

My question is: How will China and Russia react?

288 Coracle  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:19:42am

re: #274 Dark_Falcon

I do indeed believe that, or at least that any long term problems will be no worse than the problems Iran gives us already.

Jesus Christ, you live in a goddamn fantasy world.

289 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:23:07am

re: #282 Eventual Carrion

Maybe there will be some tubes or something laying around we will see that will provide a good excuse to attack. Stick with what has worked in the past.

No pretexts are to be used. The establishment of a red line is not to be used as an excuse. If Iran doesn't cross the line, then they will not be attacked. Period. And we would not consider them to have done so without clear and convincing evidence.

I'm not a fan of deceit, folks. You already know that, remember it.

290 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:23:56am

re: #289 Dark_Falcon

No pretexts are to be used. The establishment of a red line is not to be used as an excuse. If Iran doesn't cross the line, then they will not be attacked. Period. And we would not consider them to have done so without clear and convincing evidence.

I'm not a fan of deceit, folks. You already know that, remember it.

You will not be making the decision.

291 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:24:36am

re: #289 Dark_Falcon

I'm not a fan of deceit, folks. You already know that, remember it.

You must be thrilled at the prospect of voting for Mitt Romney, who says he both wants to increase the number of teachers in America, and to cut the number of teachers in America, depending on who he's talking to at the time.

292 Coracle  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:25:12am

re: #289 Dark_Falcon

I'm not a fan of deceit, folks. You already know that, remember it.

Perhaps not, but your penchant for self delusion is manifold evident.

293 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:26:18am

re: #290 Eventual Carrion

You will not be making the decision.

Frighteningly, he will be making about 1/80,000,000th of the decision.

294 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:29:03am

re: #293 Decatur Deb

Frighteningly, he will be making about 1/80,000,000th of the decision.

So will you.

295 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:29:40am

Still waiting to hear how much a war with Iran will cost us, and how we can pay for it so as not to increase the [...scary music...] deficit.

296 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:30:00am

re: #294 Dark_Falcon

So will you.

Wife, I, and the people we've registered to vote will make quite a bit more.

297 Lidane  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:30:07am

re: #156 The Mongoose

Even if all this turns out to be true, isn't letting Iran point a nuclear weapon at Tel Aviv worse?

Israel has their own nukes. You think they're not pointed at Tehran or any of these other countries that keep threatening to destroy them?

298 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:32:27am

re: #296 Decatur Deb

Wife, I, and the people I've registered to vote will make quite a bit more.

As will my extended family and my friends. I'm not a crazy, Deb, and I don't want a war. But I am also of the opinion that Iran cannot be allowed to build nuclear weapons and that is in my mind a threat that is worth taking grave risks to counter.

299 Coracle  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:33:57am

re: #274 Dark_Falcon

I do indeed believe that, or at least that any long term problems will be no worse than the problems Iran gives us already.

Truth hurts, doesn't it, Dark. For someone with as much military knowledge as you, the assumption that a hot war with Iran won't worsen the global security picture for the US (at the very least) is pure and irresponsible fantasy.

300 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:34:50am

re: #298 Dark_Falcon

As will my extended family and my friends. I'm not a crazy, Deb, and I don't want a war. But I am also of the opinion that Iran cannot be allowed to build nuclear weapons and that is in my mind a threat that is worth taking grave risks to counter.

That genie is out of the bottle. There are already a bunch of nukes with questionable surety programs in storage. Any nation with a lot of oil money and the determination will get any weapons it wants.

301 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:37:03am

re: #300 Decatur Deb

That genie is out of the bottle. There are already a bunch of nukes with questionable surety programs in storage. Any nation with a lot of oil money and the determination will get any weapons it wants.

The easiest way to undermine Iran would be to develop alternative energy sources and encourage other nations, China especially, to adopt them.

But Republican backers have got weapons to sell, so unsurprisingly that approach isn't quite so obvious to them.

Still waiting for the cost analysis and payment options BTW. Not very responsive with the old fiscal conservatism here this morning.

302 A Mom Anon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:37:41am

Oh lordy,here we go...yet again.
Deflection. GOP idiots,so eager to make the Obama administration look like crap that they go on live TV and run off at the mouth. No big deal.

Obama votes on a bill when he was a senator that was full of unrelated elements(a thing I think needs fixing,what's in a bill should be about one topic,period. No hiding things within things,it's a bullshit practice)and we're all supposed to gnash our teeth and call him a hypocrite.

I'd be more impressed with people on the right wing side of the aisle if they'd start criticizing their side instead of playing MBF every.fucking.time the GOP does something stupid or rotten. If I hear"Chicago Style Thuggery"or "this is what a Democrat did"coming from a right winger in response to anything the GOP is actively doing,right now,it only proves to me that they're freaking babies who need to grow up. I'm not asking anyone to love liberals like me(though,for the record,I'm actually very adorable and charming,and I make a mean lasagna),but at least freaking admit the GOP has lost it's way. It has. Clean up your own backyard first,use that anti Obama energy someplace useful. Take your party back and make it sane again. Hell,do that and I might even vote for a Republican sometimes.

303 Lidane  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:38:59am

re: #295 iossarian

Still waiting to hear how much a war with Iran will cost us, and how we can pay for it so as not to increase the [...scary music...] deficit.

Who cares what it will cost? Once we bomb Iran to hell and back, the Iranian people will love us and greet us as liberators. They'll also help us pay for the war costs by sharing their oil revenue with us, no questions asked.

///

304 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:41:36am

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Estimated cost of wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan: between 3.2 and 4 trillion dollars.

Come on DF, how much will Iran add to that, and how are we going to pay for it?

305 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:42:20am

re: #303 Lidane

Who cares what it will cost? Once we bomb Iran to hell and back, the Iranian people will love us and greet us as liberators. They'll also help us pay for the war costs by sharing their oil revenue with us, no questions asked.

///

Why do people keep fixating on "BOMB THEM TO HELL!!1"? I haven't said anything like that.

306 A Mom Anon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:44:54am

re: #305 Dark_Falcon

You're still advocating for war. Ok,PAY FOR IT FIRST.

307 Lidane  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:46:36am

re: #305 Dark_Falcon

Why do people keep fixating on "BOMB THEM TO HELL!!1"? I haven't said anything like that.

Because really, where's the harm in bombing military and/or nuclear targets? It's not like the Iranians would get up in arms at all if we bomb those and ignored civilians. They'll be completely understanding, love us, and greet us as liberators. And they'll share their money with us to reimburse us for bombing them.

308 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:47:33am

Also, what about the radiological release?
How will we deal with that cleanup?

309 The Left  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:47:44am

re: #303 Lidane

Who cares what it will cost? Once we bomb Iran to hell and back, the Iranian people will love us and greet us as liberators. They'll also help us pay for the war costs by sharing their oil revenue with us, no questions asked.

///

We'll be greeted as liberators! DEMOCRACY WHISKY SEXY!

310 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:47:53am

BTW did anyone watch that Jon Stewart segment where Romney complains about the 16 Trillion deficit but has NO CLUE how to reduce it, in fact whatever he proposes will just INCREASE THE DEFICIT. Oh yeah, "cut PBS" that should take care of about 0.0000012% of the deficit.

311 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:48:42am

re: #33 jaunte

Here's how reason.com described that:

"Geeze, guys, you just can't stand up here with a camera on and reveal that the annex was a CIA facility!"

Reply, with a blank look: Why not?

312 Coracle  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:49:08am

re: #305 Dark_Falcon

Why do people keep fixating on "BOMB THEM TO HELL!!1"? I haven't said anything like that.

Dark, attacking _anything_ in Iran starts a hot war. To ignore that is irresponsible and dangerous.

313 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:49:34am

re: #310 Sheila Broflovski

BTW did anyone watch that Jon Stewart segment where Romney complains about the 16 Trillion deficit but has NO CLUE how to reduce it, in fact whatever he proposes will just INCREASE THE DEFICIT. Oh yeah, "cut PBS" that should take care of about 0.0000012% of the deficit.

Always the same from those guys. Lots of noise about Democrats to compensate for the fact that they're the irresponsible spenders, and they know it.

Observe DF here this morning and his refusal to approach the topic of how much a war with Iran would cost, and how to pay for it.

314 Lidane  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:49:48am

re: #308 Varek Raith

Also, what about the radiological release?
How will we deal with that cleanup?

Simple. The Iranians will do it for us as a way to say thank you for bombing them.

315 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:50:08am

re: #310 Sheila Broflovski

BTW did anyone watch that Jon Stewart segment where Romney complains about the 16 Trillion deficit but has NO CLUE how to reduce it, in fact whatever he proposes will just INCREASE THE DEFICIT. Oh yeah, "cut PBS" that should take care of about 0.0000012% of the deficit.

Except as a weapon to bash 'libruls' with, I've found few conservatives who actually give a shit about the deficit or debt.

316 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:50:11am

re: #314 Lidane

Simple. The Iranians will do it for us as a way to say thank you for bombing them.

Sweet.

317 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:50:13am

re: #305 Dark_Falcon

Why do people keep fixating on "BOMB THEM TO HELL!!1"? I haven't said anything like that.

No ground troops needed. All can be done from the air. Sounds like bombing to me. Or are we going to fly overhead blaring Van Halen's "Panama" until they all surrender from lack of sleep and quiet?

318 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:50:18am

re: #312 Coracle

Dark, attacking _anything_ in Iran starts a hot war. To ignore that is irresponsible and dangerous.

And they are within marching distance of our reduced forces and seriously weakened proxies in Iraq. They have old scores to settle there.

319 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:51:30am

re: #314 Lidane

Simple. The Iranians will do it for us as a way to say thank you for bombing them.

I haven't ever been bombed by the US military and I'm beginning to feel a little left out!

If I tie a couple of smoke detectors to a bike wheel and make my own homebrew centrifuge, do you think I might get a Tomahawk missile sent my way?

320 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:51:44am

Image: COMPLETELY-WRONG.jpg

321 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:55:39am
322 Lidane  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:58:43am

re: #318 Decatur Deb

And they are within marching distance of our reduced forces and seriously weakened proxies in Iraq. They have old scores to settle there.

Iran borders both Iraq AND Afghanistan. What could possibly go wrong?

323 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 5:59:54am

re: #322 Lidane

Iran borders both Iraq AND Afghanistan. What could possibly go wrong?

And the unstable Kurdish part of Turkey, a NATO ally.

324 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:00:10am

Going to a job fair. Back Later.

325 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:00:33am

re: #324 Dark_Falcon

Going to a job fair. Later.

Good luck.

326 Lidane  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:02:27am

re: #323 Decatur Deb

And the unstable Kurdish part of Turkey, a NATO ally.

It's also nearly four times the size of Iraq with more than double the population.

Total cake walk. No problems at all. We can send in surgical strikes from the air at their military and/or nuclear targets and there won't be any consequences at all. We can do it first thing in the morning and be back in time for lunch.

327 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:03:24am

re: #326 Lidane

It's also nearly four times the size of Iraq with more than double the population.

Total cake walk. No problems at all. We can send in surgical strikes from the air at their military and/or nuclear targets and there won't be any consequences at all. We can do it first thing in the morning and be back in time for lunch.

We'll have to send in ground forces to accept the bouquets.

328 Lidane  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:07:17am

re: #327 Decatur Deb

We'll have to send in ground forces to accept the bouquets.

Pfft. The Iranians will do it for us, just like paying for the bombs with their oil revenue and cleaning up any fallout for us.

It's all part of the Bombed Country Valet Service that the GOP has been promising us for the last decade or so.

329 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:09:23am

Magic hour between too dark and too hot--off to walk the dog.

330 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:39:17am

Good morning
I'm laughing my butt off this morning, just got my vote by mail ballot. Roseann Barr and Cindy Sheehan are on the ballot for President and VP. Celebrity silly season on my ballot.

BTW question for California lizards- Do you like any of the props? I'm thinking no across the board.

331 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:44:02am

Wow, what a surprise.
CEO who threatened employees if Obama wins is a SCAMMER.

332 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:44:58am

re: #130 BryanS

It is a problem if intelligence was leaked out in this hearing, but we also have to hold the administration accountable. It really looks like the administration intentionally misled both the public and the Congress for political purposes when they advanced the narrative that a terrorist attack on our embassy was due to some stupid video.

Of course it was motivated by other factors beyond "some stupid video." Just as much as 9/11 was motivated beyond their "hating are freedoms" as Bush used to frequently pronounce. Then again those reasons are part of "that which will not be spoken of" by most conservatives save being black-listed, fired, and harassed by the usual suspects.

333 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:48:34am

re: #285 Sheila Broflovski

The GOP are all whining about a "16 Trillion deficit" and they think the best way to reduce that is by cutting off funding to PBS.

Big Bird's feathers are $100 bills that are dyed yellow obviously. And he molts, so there is a constant replacement cost.
///

334 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:49:48am

re: #332 Gus

The administration gave the opposition a gift that keeps on giving with that mis-step. I never thought the video was relevant to the attack in Libya. It sucks that we got a better briefing from their President rather than our own.

Susan Rice should stay off the airwaves the rest of her term.

335 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:50:37am

re: #291 iossarian

You must be thrilled at the prospect of voting for Mitt Romney, who says he both wants to increase the number of teachers in America, and to cut the number of teachers in America, depending on who he's talking to at the time.

I'm sure if you asked him he has a plan for further qualification of teachers into "good" ones (to be kept/hired) and "bad" ones (to be fired). Though I expect your standards for defining good/bad will be different than his. And that his plan will not be available to be read until Jan 20, 2013.

336 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:50:46am

Why do they hate us?

337 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:53:40am

re: #334 Daniel Ballard

The administration gave the opposition a gift that keeps on giving with that mis-step. I never thought the video was relevant to the attack in Libya. It sucks that we got a better briefing from their President rather than our own.

Susan Rice should stay off the airwaves the rest of her term.

Right. Obama owns this but Bush never owned Abu Ghraib, etc. That was just the fault of some private.

338 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:53:44am

re: #304 iossarian

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Estimated cost of wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan: between 3.2 and 4 trillion dollars.

Come on DF, how much will Iran add to that, and how are we going to pay for it?

Maybe we should buy Iran rather than bomb it. Would probably be cheaper in the long run.

339 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:56:20am

re: #337 Gus

I did not say that. Please don't put that attitude on me, I'm not some neocon wonk.

340 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:56:47am

re: #337 Gus

Right. Obama owns this but Bush never owned Abu Ghraib, etc. That was just the fault of some private.

Oh c'mon Gus, it was more than that. I think they actually convicted a Sgt of something.
///

341 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:01:43am

Good morning lizards!

342 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:02:03am

re: #339 Daniel Ballard

I did not say that. Please don't put that attitude on me, I not some neocon wonk.

Bottom line is that this hearing or witch hunt, is the usual right-wing, Republican, steaming pile of 10 foot stacked horse manure filled with double standards as far as the eye can see.

343 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:03:45am

The drones are busy, it's usually a sign that we're on to someone big. There might be an advancement opportunity soon for a new Al Qaeda #2.
US drone strike kills 11 in NWA

The compound was located in the Baland Khel area on the border between Orakzai and North Waziristan, a Pakistani intelligence official told AFP on condition of anonymity.

Militants had sealed off the flattened building and were recovering bodies, he said. The building belonged to Maulvi Shakirullah, a commander in the forces of Pakistani warlord Hafiz Gul Bahadur.

Bahadur is an ally of the Al-Qaeda-linked Haqqani network blamed by the Americans for a string of high-profile attacks in Afghanistan.

On Wednesday a US drone strike targeting another compound in North Waziristan killed five fighters, according to Pakistani officials.

344 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:07:27am

re: #343 Killgore Trout

The drones are busy, it's usually a sign that we're on to someone big. There might be an advancement opportunity soon for a new Al Qaeda #2.
US drone strike kills 11 in NWA

The moonbats of Code Pink are weeping.

345 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:12:15am

re: #344 NJDhockeyfan

The moonbats of Code Pink are weeping.

I think the Taliban assassination attempt of the title girl in Pakistan took the wind out of their sails. What a bunch of dummies.

346 efuseakay  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:15:26am

re: #270 Dark_Falcon

No, I'm saying that Goddamnedfrank used a bad source. I'm also saying that if Iran decides to fire missiles at the US Navy Iran is going to get worsted in the exchange. Will they do some damage? Yes. But they'll get pulverized in so doing.

Shock and Awe!

347 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:16:26am

So congress skips out until after the election yet find time to put together a drum roll hearing purely for cynical political gain for the Republican Party. This isn't being done in the national interest. This is being done for their own selfish gains.

348 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:18:37am

re: #347 Gus


Jobs Blow Away as Congress Fails to Act on Wind Energy

Laser-like focus on jobs.

349 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:19:05am

re: #347 Gus

So congress skips out until after the election yet find time to put together a drum roll hearing purely for cynical political gain for the Republican Party. This isn't being done in the national interest. This is being done for their own selfish gains.

And what was the original "it's the video's fault" purpose?

350 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:20:05am

re: #348 Obdicut

Jobs Blow Away as Congress Fails to Act on Wind Energy

Laser-like focus on jobs profits for their energy company campaign contributors.

FTFY.

351 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:21:22am

re: #345 Killgore Trout

I think the Taliban assassination attempt of the title girl in Pakistan took the wind out of their sails. What a bunch of dummies.

The chances them protest that shooting are slim and none.

352 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:22:26am

Yemeni security official at US Embassy in Sanaa shot dead, local officials tell AP

A masked gunman assassinated a Yemeni security official who worked for the U.S. Embassy in a drive-by shooting near his home in the capital Sanaa on Thursday, officials told The Associated Press.

Yemeni officials told the AP the killing bore the hallmarks of an attack by the al-Qaida offshoot in Yemen, but it was too early to determine whether the group was behind it.

353 Lidane  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:23:32am

re: #351 NJDhockeyfan

And the chances that most people either notice or care about a Code Pink protest are even lower than that.

354 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:24:48am

re: #349 sattv4u2

And what was the original "it's the video's fault" purpose?

It was the reason trumped up to get the masses fired up to hide the real purpose. Diversion is the support of insurrection. Hide in plain sight. IT was what the masses were pissed about, others just used that. Think Tea Party.

355 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:26:21am

re: #354 Eventual Carrion

It was the reason trumped up to get the masses fired up to hide the real purpose. Diversion is the support of insurrection. Hide in plain sight. IT was what the masses were pissed about, others just used that. Think Tea Party.

I'm not talking about the protesters using it

I'm talking about the administration

356 BongCrodny  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:26:29am

re: #351 NJDhockeyfan

The chances them protest that shooting are slim and none.

Codepink delegation in Pakistan condemns attack on 14-year-old Pakistani girl

“We came to Pakistan to protest American drone attacks that have killed hundreds of innocent people,” said Medea Benjamin, a founder of Codepink and leader of the 31-member delegation that participated in a historic convoy to Waziristan Oct. 6 to visit with the people most affected by the drone strikes. “But we stand in solidarity with Pakistanis, especially the women, as they fight all of the forces that are working against human rights in their country. We are praying for Malala’s quick recovery and return to school.”

Not a fan of Code Pink, but fair is fair.

357 darthstar  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:28:59am

Mornin' everyone...does all this talk of bombing the living shit out of Iran make my cock look huge or what! Whoo-ee! I'm magnificent!

358 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:30:32am

re: #356 BongCrodny

Codepink delegation in Pakistan condemns attack on 14-year-old Pakistani girl

Not a fan of Code Pink, but fair is fair.

No, no, Code Pink are inhuman monsters who only care about destroying America, and will side with terrorists to do so.

That's why, even if you're a classical liberal, it's OK to TEAR GAS THEM IN THE FACE.

359 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:31:08am

re: #357 darthstar

Mornin' everyone...does all this talk of bombing the living shit out of Iran make my cock look huge or what! Whoo-ee! I'm magnificent!

Those binoculars ... you're holding them the wrong way round.

360 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:31:38am

re: #357 darthstar

Mornin' everyone...does all this talk of bombing the living shit out of Iran make my cock look huge or what! Whoo-ee! I'm magnificent!

Not me

I've been in the pool!

(George Costanza)

361 BongCrodny  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:31:58am

re: #357 darthstar

Mornin' everyone...does all this talk of bombing the living shit out of Iran make my cock look huge or what! Whoo-ee! I'm magnificent!

Psst....if we bomb China, it might look even bigger.

362 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:32:13am

re: #355 sattv4u2

I'm not talking about the protesters using it

I'm talking about the administration

What was the reason for the other protests that didn't kill anybody?

363 Kronocide  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:32:41am

I think somebody has a Code Pink fetish.

364 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:34:41am

re: #356 BongCrodny

Codepink delegation in Pakistan condemns attack on 14-year-old Pakistani girl

Not a fan of Code Pink, but fair is fair.

WOW..that was unexpected. They should be careful over there saying stuff like that in that particular area.

365 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:34:48am

It is a little more complicated than just bombing Natanz, Iran has scattered it's nuclear sites all over the map to purposefully make it harder to strike them.

Please Note: The Map below does not even show the newest uranium enrichment facility at Fordow near Qom. The one the Iranians finally admitted they were building in 2009 after they knew that we already knew about it.


Iran Nuclear Map

Fordow is under 300 feet of dirt and rock, nothing in our arsenal short of a nuke can penetrate it. We can cut the external power and collapse the entrances and ventilation openings, but we can't hit the centrifuges.

Fordow Sat Image

366 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:35:02am

re: #358 iossarian

No, no, Code Pink are inhuman monsters who only care about destroying America, and will side with terrorists to do so.

That's why, even if you're a classical liberal, it's OK to TEAR GAS THEM IN THE FACE.

Coke Pink was tear gassed? When?

367 The Left  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:36:16am

Gus! I emailed you-- get on gchat!

368 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:36:34am

I think it's bizarre that people hate the idea of Code Pink going to Pakistan and actually, you know, meeting some of the people that are getting bombs dropped on them by us.

I don't see what there is to get upset about - really I don't. It would be different if those doing the criticizing were themselves making some attempt to get over there and find out for themselves what's going on. As it is, it just seems like pointless negativity to me.

369 The Left  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:36:42am

Oh and hello LGF. :)

370 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:36:57am

re: #365 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

It is a little more complicated than just bombing Natanz, Iran has scattered it's nuclear sites all over the map to purposefully make it harder to strike them.

Please Note: The Map below does not even show the newest uranium enrichment facility at Fordow near Qom. The one the Iranians finally admitted they were building in 2009 after they knew that we already knew about it.

Iran Nuclear Map

Fordow is under 300 feet of dirt and rock, nothing in our arsenal short of a nuke can penetrate it. We can cut the external power and collapse the entrances and ventilation openings, but we can't hit the centrifuges.

Fordow Sat Image

The biggest problem is the size of Iran. I believe it's as big as Europe.

371 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:37:41am

re: #366 NJDhockeyfan

Coke Pink was tear gassed? When?

As unarmed liberal protesters, I include Code Pink in the general category of people who it's apparently OK to tear-gas without cause, in the name of protecting America.

372 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:38:02am

re: #369 The Left

Oh and hello LGF. :)

If you're "The Left", what does that make me?

373 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:38:52am

re: #370 NJDhockeyfan

The biggest problem is the size of Iran. I believe it's as big as Europe.

Hardly

3,931,000 sq miles (10,180,000 km²)
Europe, Area

636,300 sq miles (1,648,000 km²)
Iran, Area

374 The Left  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:38:53am

re: #372 iossarian

If you're "The Left", what does that make me?

Part of the left. :)

375 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:39:20am

re: #372 iossarian

If you're "The Left", what does that make me?

Either "Leftier" or "Rightier" duhh. ;)

376 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:39:23am

re: #374 The Left

Part of the left. :)

Which part, your arm?

377 BongCrodny  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:40:00am

re: #372 iossarian

If you're "The Left", what does that make me?

Leftovers?

378 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:40:09am

re: #367 The Left

Gus! I emailed you-- get on gchat!

I'm there.

379 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:40:48am

re: #378 Gus

I'm there.

How can you be "there" when you're "here"?
What wizardry is this

380 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:41:26am

re: #364 NJDhockeyfan

WOW..that was unexpected. They should be careful over there saying stuff like that in that particular area.

I think this comment, unfortunately, is part of the larger problem, which is that the US prefers to deal with this stuff by dropping bombs, rather than taking the harder, and admittedly riskier, route of actually trying to work with people on the ground.

There are still a lot of people who are trying to improve Pakistan (and other places, but Pakistan is the prime example) by working with people for genuine, positive change. Aid agencies still operate there. But this whole attitude of: "it's dangerous - better to fly unmanned planes over them and drop ordinance" is not exactly helping.

381 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:43:05am

re: #380 iossarian

I think this comment, unfortunately, is part of the larger problem, which is that the US prefers to deal with this stuff by dropping bombs, rather than taking the harder, and admittedly riskier, route of actually trying to work with people on the ground.

There are still a lot of people who are trying to improve Pakistan (and other places, but Pakistan is the prime example) by working with people for genuine, positive change. Aid agencies still operate there. But this whole attitude of: "it's dangerous - better to fly unmanned planes over them and drop ordinance" is not exactly helping.

Next you'll be telling me that banging on the side of my 'puter doesn't help it go faster. I refuse to hear this blasphemy.

382 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:43:44am

re: #380 iossarian

I think this comment, unfortunately, is part of the larger problem, which is that the US prefers to deal with this stuff by dropping bombs, rather than taking the harder, and admittedly riskier, route of actually trying to work with people on the ground.

There are still a lot of people who are trying to improve Pakistan (and other places, but Pakistan is the prime example) by working with people for genuine, positive change. Aid agencies still operate there. But this whole attitude of: "it's dangerous - better to fly unmanned planes over them and drop ordinance" is not exactly helping.

But haven't "we" tried that many Many times before, with less than stellar results. Going in is often a no win situation. On the one hand we're called meddlers (or even worse, occupiers) while on the other we're told that we should have done more

383 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:43:58am

re: #338 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Maybe we should buy Iran rather than bomb it. Would probably be cheaper in the long run.

It's an ancient meme, and the numbers would be hard to recreate, but it was once published that dividing the cost of the Vietnam War by the number of VC/NVA killed showed it cost 250,000 1970's dollars to kill each of them. Most might have taken half of that and retired to quiet fishing (except for the self-determination part).

384 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:44:39am

re: #365 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

It is a little more complicated than just bombing Natanz, Iran has scattered it's nuclear sites all over the map to purposefully make it harder to strike them.

Please Note: The Map below does not even show the newest uranium enrichment facility at Fordow near Qom. The one the Iranians finally admitted they were building in 2009 after they knew that we already knew about it.

Iran Nuclear Map

Fordow is under 300 feet of dirt and rock, nothing in our arsenal short of a nuke can penetrate it. We can cut the external power and collapse the entrances and ventilation openings, but we can't hit the centrifuges.

Fordow Sat Image

I was just reading this....

Pentagon planners: Israel’s three options for an Iranian strike

According to several high-level U.S. military and civilian intelligence sources, one of the three scenarios for taking out Iran's nuclear facilities is an "Iranian Entebbe," named for Israel's rescue of hostages in Uganda in 1976, in which Israeli commandos would storm Iran's Fordow nuclear facility and remove as much enriched uranium as they could, according to Perry. They would then plant explosives to destroy the facility as they left.
...
Some experts believe it is very doable, while others think that Entebbe was one thing but that Iran is another, demonstrating Israel's desperation for a military solution that could work.

"The operation's success would depend on speed, secrecy, simplicity and the credibility of Israeli intelligence," Perry writes. "According to the Pentagon war planner, Israel's access to intelligence on Iranian military and policy planning is unprecedented, as is their willingness to share it with U.S. intelligence officials." [Link: bit.ly...]

More detailed info here: The Entebbe Option
It seems a bit James Bondish to me but some people think it's doable.

385 wheat-dogg  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:45:07am

Well, I am trying to read comments, but my connection is timing out. Could be problems at my end, or maybe the little green hamsters are wearing out.

386 Kronocide  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:45:35am

re: #380 iossarian

I think this comment, unfortunately, is part of the larger problem, which is that the US prefers to deal with this stuff by dropping bombs, rather than taking the harder, and admittedly riskier, route of actually trying to work with people on the ground.

Fraternizing savages leads to catering to them which leads to supporting them. The right thing to due is blow them up, that'll teach em to screw with us.

387 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:46:15am

re: #373 sattv4u2

Hardly

3,931,000 sq miles (10,180,000 km²)
Europe, Area

636,300 sq miles (1,648,000 km²)
Iran, Area

It's still about 3x the size of Texas.

Maybe we should bomb that instead, it's closer and smaller. :p
///

388 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:46:30am

re: #380 iossarian

I think this comment, unfortunately, is part of the larger problem, which is that the US prefers to deal with this stuff by dropping bombs, rather than taking the harder, and admittedly riskier, route of actually trying to work with people on the ground.

There are still a lot of people who are trying to improve Pakistan (and other places, but Pakistan is the prime example) by working with people for genuine, positive change. Aid agencies still operate there. But this whole attitude of: "it's dangerous - better to fly unmanned planes over them and drop ordinance" is not exactly helping.

I believe we've been having secret talks with the Taliban for about 2 years but their attacks and murders of civilians and Americans haven't stopped. What do you propose we should talk about with them?

389 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:47:30am

New jobless claims drop to 4-year low. But as Obama's critics contend, the numbers are bunk (particularly because they undercut the GOP claims that Obama hasn't gotten the job done):

Analysts said the report Thursday probably overstates what appears to be a moderately improving job market. And coming just days after officials reported that the unemployment rate fell in September to a post-recession low, some critics of Obama administration policies may again see political interference in the new data.

Thursday's report showed that there were 339,000 initial claims for unemployment benefits in the week ended last Saturday. That's a whopping decline of 30,000 from the prior week.

The data are seasonally adjusted, and the claims numbers can be highly volatile from week to week, especially when there is a holiday or the weather is bad and government offices are closed. A Labor Department official economist indicated Thursday that the data could have been skewed by one large state's irregular filing.

The steep drop is likely to be met with some skepticism, as was the report last Friday when the government said the jobless rate fell to 7.8% last month, from 8.1% in August -- the lowest since January 2009 when President Obama was sworn into office. Former General Electric chief Jack Welch triggered a storm of protests after he asserted that the September jobs data were manipulated by the White House.

Never mind that the BLS puts out its figures and other entities (ADP and Gallup) put out their own workforce figures, and each is indicating generally positive workforce data.

Are the data nearly as positive/optimistic/hopeful as one would hope for if they're looking for a growing American economy? Nope, but the signs are there that the economy is growing at a low-moderate pace, which is a damned sight better than the the great recession.

390 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:48:09am

re: #387 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

It's still about 3x the size of Texas.

Maybe we should bomb that instead, it's closer and smaller. :p
///

No thanks

I'm already paying $3.75 a gallon AND when I go to Tulsa I have to do a layover in Dallas. Bad enough now,,,, would be much worse post bombing

391 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:50:39am

re: #388 NJDhockeyfan

I believe we've been having secret talks with the Taliban for about 2 years but their attacks and murders of civilians and Americans haven't stopped. What do you propose we should talk about with them?

You start with goat's-head soccer and work up from there. It ain't fast.

392 Lidane  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:50:47am

re: #385 wheatdogg

Well, I am trying to read comments, but my connection is timing out. Could be problems at my end, or maybe the little green hamsters are wearing out.

After this week's collective seizure, I think the LGF hamsters might be getting ready to Occupy the nearest recliners, little fruity drinks with umbrellas in them and all. Or at least figure out some sort of collective bargaining agreement where they get rotating shifts.

393 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:52:01am

re: #392 Lidane

After this week's collective seizure, I think the LGF hamsters might be getting ready to Occupy the nearest recliners, little fruity drinks with umbrellas in them and all. Or at least figure out some sort of collective bargaining agreement where they get rotating shifts.

Run for the hills, the rodents are unionizing.

394 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:52:03am

re: #392 Lidane

After this week's collective seizure, I think the LGF hamsters might be getting ready to Occupy the nearest recliners, little fruity drinks with umbrellas in them and all. Or at least figure out some sort of collective bargaining agreement where they get rotating shifts.

Hamster Thugs.

395 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:52:40am

re: #390 sattv4u2

No thanks

I'm already paying $3.75 a gallon AND when I go to Tulsa I have to do a layover in Dallas. Bad enough now,,,, would be much worse post bombing

Hmm, for a size comparison Alaska is actually fairly close.
636,300 sq miles (1,648,000 km²)
vs
663,268 sq miles (1,717,854 sq km)

396 efuseakay  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:53:00am

re: #384 Killgore Trout

I was just reading this....

Pentagon planners: Israel’s three options for an Iranian strike

More detailed info here: The Entebbe Option
It seems a bit James Bondish to me but some people think it's doable.

It's not doable. No way that would work. Real-life isn't Jack Bauer. Imagine a few IDF taken hostage.

397 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:53:34am

re: #394 Decatur Deb

Hamster Thugs.

Then they start Occupy: Internet and get all stabby on things, n'at.

398 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:53:56am

re: #392 Lidane

After this week's collective seizure, I think the LGF hamsters might be getting ready to Occupy the nearest recliners, little fruity drinks with umbrellas in them and all. Or at least figure out some sort of collective bargaining agreement where they get rotating shifts.

Just cop some crystal meth for the lil' critters. LGF will be faster than ever...for a while.

399 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:55:34am

Heh.

Hezbollah Official Flees to Israel with Embezzled Millions

Last month, Yoni Alpert’s Terror Watch reported that Iranian Revolutionary Guards along with Hezbollah’s security apparatus arrested Hussein Fahs, who is considered Hezbollah’s CFO and head of the organization’s operational communications network. Fahs was arrested at Beirut’s Hariri Airport, on his way to an unknown destination. He and four other Hezbollah members were interrogated on suspicion of embezzling the organization’s funds and of collaborating with Israeli Intelligence. At the time it was suspected that they stole at least $5 million in Iranian aid funds.

Now it turns out, according to TW, citing Lebanese sources, that Fahs, a 29-year-old telecommunications engineer, a native of southern Lebanon, was able to flee the country, crossing the border into Israel.

According to official Hezbollah sources, Fahs took with him maps, classified documents and a large sum of money.

400 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:56:22am

re: #396 efuseakay

It's not doable. No way that would work. Real-life isn't Jack Bauer. Imagine a few IDF taken hostage.

It took 5 years to get Gilad Shalit back and they had to release a whole bunch of Hamas killers.

BTW today is the 1st anniversary of Shalit's freedom!

401 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:56:45am

re: #396 efuseakay

Nobody talks about how Israel could easily take out those facilities without sending planes or troops. I guess that option is literally unthinkable.

But if Iran ever makes warheads, It's a distinct possibility.

402 darthstar  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:57:23am

re: #373 sattv4u2

Hardly

3,931,000 sq miles (10,180,000 km²)
Europe, Area

636,300 sq miles (1,648,000 km²)
Iran, Area

Why that's just about the size of Alaska...they've got Code Pink people living there...and baby seals. Let's bomb them!

403 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:58:11am

re: #384 Killgore Trout

The level of assumptions about the success of an on-the-ground raid rises to crazy levels.

Assume the following:
1) You know where the uranium is being made/stored;
2) you know all the security precautions being taken
3) you have an on the ground force of sufficient size to fight their way in, fight their way to their objectives, and then fight their way out.
3a) the operational force knows how to handle the radioactive materials
3b) the logistics of removing the equipment/materials is feasible - you're talking hundreds of kilos of uranium plus a similar amount of shielding - size and bulk are issue, unless you're simply going to blow everything up and allow the radioactivity thwart a cleanup
4) you have to maintain safe air corridors for your forces to get in/out
5) that Iran would not directly retaliate against Israel, let alone US or its bases/forces in the region, or shipping through the Strait of Hormuz - causing an oil price spike.
6) proxies fighting Israel on Iran's behalf - Hizbullah or Hamas resume their war against Israel.

Those are tough objectives if you've got the resources of the US, but the Israelis have even fewer resources with the means to reach the targets deep inside Iran.

That difficulty is one of the reasons that many assume the Stuxnet/Flame effort was led by Israel - to thwart/delay Iran's nuclear ambitions by throwing a monkey wrench into their enrichment program. It was a relatively low-cost and high-return on investment operation - plausible deniability and it doesn't put actual military forces at risk, while allowing the possibility to shake apart the very sensitive centrifuge systems from the inside.

404 darthstar  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 7:58:42am

re: #390 sattv4u2

No thanks

I'm already paying $3.75 a gallon AND when I go to Tulsa I have to do a layover in Dallas. Bad enough now,,,, would be much worse post bombing

Why would anyone go to Tulsa?

405 dragonfire1981  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:00:08am

re: #392 Lidane

After this week's collective seizure, I think the LGF hamsters might be getting ready to Occupy the nearest recliners, little fruity drinks with umbrellas in them and all. Or at least figure out some sort of collective bargaining agreement where they get rotating shifts.

Did we not order enough wheels for those poor guys?

406 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:00:30am

re: #404 darthstar

Why would anyone go to Tulsa?

My brother lives in Tulsa. I went there for his wedding. Not much there but cowboys and tremendously large cockroaches.

407 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:00:36am

re: #342 Gus

I don't think of Issa's craptastic showtime as the bottom line. It's theater noise and artificial fury.

To me the bottom line is the administration really did tried to convince us it was all about the video, when that was obviously wrong.

Do you recall the reason I speculated as to why our President gave us a little song and dance that week?

408 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:00:38am

re: #396 efuseakay

It's not doable. No way that would work. Real-life isn't Jack Bauer. Imagine a few IDF taken hostage.

It seems unlikely to me too but check out the details in the second link...

Colonel Gardiner believes this Entebbe-style operation is possible. "It's a non-escalatory option, it's entirely doable, and it's not as dangerous as it seems," he said. "We have to understand what Israel's goal is in any attack on Iran. The whole point for Israel is to show that they can they can project power anywhere in the region. So let's take a look at this from their perspective. There aren't three divisions near Fordow, there's one, and it's dug in. It wouldn't take the Iranians three hours to respond, it would take them three days.

I suppose it could be possible but I really have no idea.

409 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:01:26am

re: #404 darthstar

Why would anyone go to Tulsa?

The Soundpony is an awesome bar.

410 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:02:51am

re: #407 Daniel Ballard

I don't think of Issa's craptastic showtime as the bottom line. It's theater noise and artificial fury.

To me the bottom line is the administration really did tried to convince us it was all about the video, when that was obviously wrong.

Do you recall the reason I speculated as to why our President gave us a little song and dance that week?

How many protests were there all together all across the region?

411 dragonfire1981  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:03:19am

Heh...Rick Scott inadvertently gives out number to Phone Sex line

Florida’s Gov. Rick Scott inadvertently directed callers worried about the fungal meningitis outbreak to a sex phone line instead of the toll-free health hotline.

Of course, whenever anyone messes up a phone number, it’s some sort of universal rule that the wrong number has to lead to somewhere hilarious/unsavory/whathaveyou, right?

The slip-up came during a Florida Cabinet meeting, when Scott informed anyone worried about the recent outbreak that they could visit the Department of Health’s website for the state or call, and WUSF reported that same number he read off.

“You can call the Dept. of Health’s toll-free, 24 hour hotline set up in response to this,” Scott said reading off an 866 number.
WUSF then followed up by posting that same telephone number online as part of its story on the outbreak. And in the fashion of observant readers with noses for news, the online community quickly informed the site that the number went somewhere different altogether.

As WUSF so tactfully puts it:
“Hello boys, thank you for calling me on my anniversary,” is how the recording opens. A young female voice then directs “existing callers” to press one, and so on.

412 darthstar  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:04:53am

re: #409 Obdicut

The Soundpony is an awesome bar.

Nobody told me they drink alcohol in Oklahoma...shit, I gotta get down there.

413 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:06:53am

re: #411 dragonfire1981

Heh...Rick Scott inadvertently gives out number to Phone Sex line

I wonder if he had it on speed dial.
/

414 Joanne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:07:13am

re: #36 Gus

I would have had America's back regardless of party from the Benghazi attack. We are all Americans.

Gus, that's the problem. WE may see this vast land as all one America and all of us Americans. The GOP and it's proliferate stooges (Rush, et al) do everything to dehumanize evil liberals, progressives and any other non-conservative moniker you can think of. Read conservative comments on any story anywhere on the innertubes.

415 darthstar  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:09:33am

You want to know what terrorists fear? Pissing off these fuckers.

416 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:13:41am

Chaffitz and Issa are the douchey duo

417 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:13:53am

re: #382 sattv4u2

But haven't "we" tried that many Many times before, with less than stellar results. Going in is often a no win situation. On the one hand we're called meddlers (or even worse, occupiers) while on the other we're told that we should have done more

Sorry - was away for a bit. I think your comment has some truth to it. But I also think that a lot of the negative outcomes that you describe actually arise in the case of western countries that are quite obviously trying to further their own agendas in developing countries.

Agencies that genuinely work with local people towards improving the local situation are, in my (limited) experience, pretty well-received. I know several people who work in such agencies, and they generally report that the people they work with are very receptive.

418 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:14:20am

re: #403 lawhawk

I think they could probably get the comandos to the sites and intel is probably good enough to get them into to facilities and know where are the good stuff is located. I think the biggest logistical problem is getting the stuff out. I suppose they could do commando raids, and blow up the facilities from the inside. leave the uranium and enough explosives and boobytraps to make excavation difficult if not impossible. They could probably accomplish that in an afternoon.

419 Joanne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:17:45am

re: #65 jaunte

No shit, really! They must have forgotten the signs, videos, etc.

And Fox and CNN virtually doing 24/7 advertising for tea party events. Ah, how soon they forget. Oh, wait...they purposely forget.

420 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:17:52am

re: #418 Killgore Trout

I think they could probably get the comandos to the sites and intel is probably good enough to get them into to facilities and know where are the good stuff is located. I think the biggest logistical problem is getting the stuff out. I suppose they could do commando raids, and blow up the facilities from the inside. leave the uranium and enough explosives and boobytraps to make excavation difficult if not impossible. They could probably accomplish that in an afternoon.

You watch too many movies.

421 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:18:05am

re: #402 darthstar

Why that's just about the size of Alaska...they've got Code Pink people living there...and baby seals. Let's bomb them!

Don't break the seal!

Image: poster15884650.jpg

422 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:18:36am

re: #391 Decatur Deb

You start with goat's-head soccer and work up from there. It ain't fast.

See, that's what people fail to accept. It took years to get the IRA to disarm. There were a bunch of problems along the way. And of course, a lot of people (on both sides) banged the "no negotiation" drum an awful lot.

Even today, you can't say the situation is "resolved".

But I don't think that many people would dispute that the situation in Northern Ireland today is a good deal healthier than it was 20 years ago.

423 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:19:36am

re: #420 Sheila Broflovski

You watch too many movies.

Remember, you have to set the timer so that, when the hero gets stuck in the basement with the bomb, he has exactly 27 seconds to make his daring escape.

424 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:20:21am

re: #420 Sheila Broflovski

You watch too many movies.

The foreign Policy article is based on the assessments of pentagon officials not my imagination. It doesn't seem likely to me either but military professionals think it's plausible. Go figure.

425 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:21:39am

This thing on?

426 Joanne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:21:46am

re: #90 engineer cat

famous last words

The war will pay for itself.

Unknown unknowns and all.

427 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:22:09am

re: #388 NJDhockeyfan

I believe we've been having secret talks with the Taliban for about 2 years but their attacks and murders of civilians and Americans haven't stopped. What do you propose we should talk about with them?

Sorry I missed this earlier, but see #417 and #422. It's a long process, and has the disadvantage of being messy and difficult.

On the other hand it doesn't involve blowing up schoolchildren as "collateral damage". So it's got something going for it.

428 Joanne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:22:51am

re: #97 jaunte

“I was told specifically while I was in Libya I could not and should not ever talk about what you’re showing here today.”

Was that Moe, Larry or Curley?

429 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:24:55am

re: #420 Sheila Broflovski

You watch too many movies.

The closest thing would be the raid on the heavy water facility in Norway during WWII. In that case, all that was necessary was destruction of facilities, they had the aid of civilians on the ground in large numbers, and the first raid ended in failure and the torture of the commandos by the Gestapo.

I don't know of any easy way to contaminate fissile materials, that's out of my pay grade, but unless there is this sounds like one of the worst ideas ever. If anything goes wrong, you've got the possibility of uranium getting blowed up and scattering on the wind.

430 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:28:14am

Rambo!

431 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:28:54am

Diamonds are forever...

Astronomers discover gigantic diamond in space

Astronomers have discovered a planet twice the size of Earth made largely out of diamond which is orbiting a star that is visible with the naked eye.

The rocky planet, called '55 Cancri e', orbits a sun-like star 40 light years away in the constellation of Cancer and is moving so fast that a year there lasts a mere 18 hours.

Discovered by a U.S.-Franco research team, its radius is twice that of Earth's but it is much more dense with a mass eight times greater. It is also incredibly hot, with temperatures on its surface reaching 3,900 degrees Fahrenheit (1,648 Celsius).

"The surface of this planet is likely covered in graphite and diamond rather than water and granite," said Nikku Madhusudhan, the Yale researcher whose findings are due to be published in the journal Astrophysical Journal Letters.

432 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:31:07am

re: #431 NJDhockeyfan

Diamonds are forever...

Astronomers discover gigantic diamond in space

Air, food and water on that planet cost more than diamonds cost here. And probably controlled by a DeBeers-like consortium.

433 iossarian  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:33:52am

Back later. Or not. Oh the suspense!

434 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:34:37am

re: #432 Sheila Broflovski

Air, food and water on that planet cost more than diamonds cost here. And probably controlled by a DeBeers-like consortium.

Or it will be polished and used as part of a planet-destroying laser based on solar collection focused by the big diamond.

(Looks over at Varek.)

435 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:34:45am

re: #432 Sheila Broflovski

Air, food and water on that planet cost more than diamonds cost here. And probably controlled by a DeBeers-like consortium.

And air conditioners are in strong demand there.

436 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:39:53am

re: #429 Obdicut

The closest thing would be the raid on the heavy water facility in Norway during WWII. In that case, all that was necessary was destruction of facilities, they had the aid of civilians on the ground in large numbers, and teh first raid ended in failure and the torture of the commandos by the Gestapo.

I don't know of any easy way to contaminate fissile materials, that's out of my pay grade, but unless there is this sounds like one of the worst ideas ever. If anything goes wrong, you've got the possibility of uranium getting blowed up and scattering on the wind.

The real problem with a ground raid on the Iranian facilities is the wide dispersal of those facilities. It is not one facility but many, each of which would present its own unique planning and operational problems. The need to hit all of them simultaneously magnifies the problem enormously. It might be possible to find a point in the system, analogous to the heavy water plant, that is both vulnerable to attack and crucial to the program. That is not something that could be predicted, however, and the Iranians would naturally take precautions against having any one point whose destruction would derail the whole program.

437 Kronocide  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:40:16am

Really Bad Video

Youtube Video
438 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:42:04am

Netanyahu says Hezbollah sent drone downed over Israel

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Thursday a drone aircraft, which flew some 35 miles (55 km) into Israel before being shot down last weekend, was sent by Iranian-backed Lebanese group Hezbollah.

In a statement from his office, Netanyahu said during a tour of the southern frontier with Egypt that Israel would "act with determination to defend its borders", just as "we thwarted over the weekend Hezbollah's attempt" to penetrate Israeli airspace.

Meanwhile Iran says they got what they wanted...

IRGC: Drone photographed Dimona reactor

Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps is claiming that the drone that infiltrated Israeli airspace over the weekend completed its mission and photographed the Dimona reactor, Yedioth Ahronoth reported Thursday.

"The unmanned aircraft managed to photograph the Israeli atomic reactor in Dimona in its smallest details," Al-Arabiya's senior correspondent Najat Mohammed Ali said.

Considered a reliable reporter, Ali said he received information from high-ranking sources in the IRGC according to which Iran had launched the drone.

439 Kronocide  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:42:27am

Really Bad Video 2

Youtube Video
440 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:44:55am

re: #439 Kronocide

dafuq did i just watch?

441 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:45:28am

re: #438 NJDhockeyfan

Netanyahu says Hezbollah sent drone downed over Israel

Meanwhile Iran says they got what they wanted...

IRGC: Drone photographed Dimona reactor

Fucking swine, who do they think they are spying on people.

Do as we say, not as we do.

442 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:45:46am

re: #429 Obdicut

One of the reports that KT linked talked about using Jerico missiles. Those are nukes. Israel has the horrific option of a tactical nuclear first strike, but of course better not go there.

443 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:46:28am

re: #437 Kronocide

Really Bad Video

[Embedded content]

How does her accent sound like the worst of Oklahoma and New Jersey all at once?

444 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:47:20am

re: #439 Kronocide

Really Bad Video 2

[Embedded content]

I'm not watching the second one because I watched the first one so I know you mean it, and it's longer. O:

445 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:48:25am

re: #438 NJDhockeyfan

Meanwhile, Hezbollah's official TV station Al Manar announced that Hassan Nasrallah will give an address on Thursday evening and will provide details on the drone.

Sources in the Arab press said that Nasrallah may announce that Hezbollah launched the drone in cooperation with Iran.

Wow, they're really playing with fire here.

446 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:48:36am

re: #441 Eventual Carrion

Fucking swine, who do they think they are spying on people.

Do as we say, not as we do.

None of the reporting here sounds reliable. Each side will report it according to their own needs. It will probably be a long time if ever we find out what really happened.

447 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:49:12am

Morning! I was able to long-on --first try this time.

I see the hamsters are back to their normal fit and active selves.

How are you?

448 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:51:29am

WRONG

449 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:52:03am

re: #448 Sheila Broflovski

WRONG

[Embedded content]

WHAT?

THE f . . . .?

450 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:52:36am

re: #448 Sheila Broflovski

WRONG

Romney: 'We don't have people who die because they don't have insurance' thkpr.gs/Q199AT

— ThinkProgress (@thinkprogress) October 11, 2012

Rmoney must live in a wonderful America. I hope to visit some day.

451 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:53:26am

re: #442 Daniel Ballard

One of the reports that KT linked talked about using Jerico missiles. Those are nukes. Israel has the horrific option of a tactical nuclear first strike, but of course better not go there.

Yeah, I can't really imagine what using a nuke in order to prevent a theoretical nuke would do to Israel's credibility on the national stage. It'd be hard for anyone to defend them.

In addition, nuking a place with a lot of uranium is going to put a lot of it in the atmosphere, and so it'd be a pretty horrific outcome for wherever that wind blew.

It's sickly fascinating to watch people try to stuff the nuclear genie back into the bottle. It's not going to happen. If technology continues to advance, the ease of making highly destructive devices will increase.

And then there's all that ex-Soviet stock in the hands of the criminal thugs that are Putin and his cronies.

452 Kronocide  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:53:27am

re: #440 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

dafuq did i just watch?

You can't unsee that.

453 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:53:57am

re: #450 Eventual Carrion

Rmoney must live in a wonderful America. I hope to visit some day.

At the very least, Romney lives in a world without Google.

454 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:54:45am

re: #448 Sheila Broflovski

WRONG

[Embedded content]

They can just go to the emergency room, because obviously the best way to treat diabetes is through repeated emergency room visits. It's also the best approach for AIDs, hepatitis, tuberculosis, staph infections, etc.

455 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:54:52am

re: #449 ggt

WHAT?

THE f . . . .?

Doubling down on his idiotic "ER health care plan"

456 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:56:41am

re: #454 Obdicut

They can just go to the emergency room, because obviously the best way to treat diabetes is through repeated emergency room visits. It's also the best approach for AIDs, hepatitis, tuberculosis, staph infections, etc.

Also, while it is true that ER must treat (ie stabilize and discharge) indigent patients, any non-insured, non-indigent patients will be billed until they become indigent.

457 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:56:57am

re: #439 Kronocide

Really Bad Video 2

[Embedded content]

Ay yi yi.

I actually enjoyed that, in an 'enjoying a really horrid video' kind of way.

458 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:58:11am

re: #450 Eventual Carrion

Rmoney must live in a wonderful America. I hope to visit some day.

It'll cost ya.

459 Joanne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:59:21am

re: #448 Sheila Broflovski

Romney, not just out of touch, but out of his mind.

460 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:59:42am

re: #452 Kronocide

You can't unsee that.

Image: whathasbeenseen-1.jpg

461 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:00:26am

re: #431 NJDhockeyfan

Diamonds are forever...

Astronomers discover gigantic diamond in space

Can I get that stone on memo? I need to show it to a nice couple Saturday.
(Jewelry biz joke, large stones are borrowed on "memo" to show and sell or return.)

462 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:01:00am

re: #460 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

The requested content cannot be loaded.
Please try again later.

Damn slacker hamsters...

463 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:03:17am

re: #384 Killgore Trout

What a pile of dung. OK, let me start by pointing out the only named person of the "some experts" who thinks this is doable is Sam Gardiner, COL (USF, ret). Some points about COL Gardiner: in 2006 he was one of the people saying we were already in Iran and that the Bush administration had already authorized an attack to destroy the nuclear facilities of Iran. Oh, and he was a strong advocate for "Shock and Awe" back in 2003 (and earlier).

But let's look at his arguments. Let me start with the stupidest: his claim that it would take 3 days for Iran to respond to a raid on the facility. Actually, that should be the only point necessary for realizing his analysis is worthless. Iran's got aircraft and SAMs. It's got airborne and air assault forces, some of whom are kept on an alert sequence. And in fact they are known to have been training to respond to an infiltration attack on nuclear facilities - see this CNN article from February just for an example.

If everything goes right I can see the commando forces getting everything on the ground done in three hours. Everything going right means nobody kicks up an alarm and all the security doors are either open or easily opened and the defensive forces are caught not only with their pants down but look on the keystone kops as elite professionals. It means none of Iran's aircraft or anti-aircraft systems work, or if they do they're as bad if not worse than what Iraq had. It means, in short, that it's a cake-walk training excercise.

Me, I spent time in not just the military but in the real world. I keep telling people that Iran trains, and that its equipment is a solid second tier. Training is, in this case, the most important thing to notice. See, for example, the previously referenced CNN report. In February, Iran's IRGC did an airborne training exercise. Objective? Respond to multiple airborne raids on its nuclear facilities -- in other words, respond to this proposed Entebbe scenario.

No. Just no.

464 Mocking Jay  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:05:07am

Comic Con starts today. Your argument is invalid.

465 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:05:44am

Nate Silver breaks down the polls again, and still finds that there's little reason to believe that Romney is ahead in the polls and the EC (where it really matters). In fact, none of the major outfits are finding Obama behind in the EC. So, while Romney might be seeing an advantage in the popular vote, he's still behind in the EC. And for those needing a refresher on presidential political science - he/she who wins the EC wins the presidency.

In other words, it's shaping up to be a long night as the results come in across the country.

466 Mocking Jay  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:06:12am

re: #439 Kronocide

Really Bad Video 2

[Embedded content]

Go troll somewhere else.

/

467 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:10:22am

re: #448 Sheila Broflovski

WRONG

[Embedded content]

Romney: 'We don’t have people who die because they don’t have insurance' thkpr.gs/Q199AT

Everybody dies. Those with no health insurance tend to die early.

468 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:10:42am

re: #451 Obdicut

Yeah, I can't really imagine what using a nuke in order to prevent a theoretical nuke would do to Israel's credibility on the national stage. It'd be hard for anyone to defend them.

In addition, nuking a place with a lot of uranium is going to put a lot of it in the atmosphere, and so it'd be a pretty horrific outcome for wherever that wind blew.

It's sickly fascinating to watch people try to stuff the nuclear genie back into the bottle. It's not going to happen. If technology continues to advance, the ease of making highly destructive devices will increase.

And then there's all that ex-Soviet stock in the hands of the criminal thugs that are Putin and his cronies.

You just don't hang out with the right kind of people. Seriously, I had to spend time with people who thought it would be a good thing, and that any real angst could be sidetracked by claiming the attacks were with conventional weapons but "those darn poorly made Iranian nukes just went off in sympathetic detonation."

No, no sarc tags. I got fed that for a few hours, along with the belief that the Europeans would be too wishy washy to respond, that most nations would be too scared of Israel's nuclear might, and that the US (or at least the Real Americans) would back Israel on this, blocking Russian and Chinese responses.

Their little world has them blinded.

469 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:11:20am

I was just told I was RC in name only and a deceiver on a fb page.

Best compliment I heard in weeks.

470 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:11:35am

re: #463 kirkspencer

There have been rumblings that someone (Israel/US) have developed an EMP type device that would knock out communications and non-hardened electronics, which would give someone a distinct advantage in those scenarios, but hardening against an EMP is something that modern military forces understand. If Iran's working on a nuclear program, they're also likely working on the effects of an EMP - both as an offensive and as defensive countermeasures.

Still, the logistics of a ground type attack pushes this kind of discussion into the realm of movie fantasy.

/of course, that we're saying this gives cover to when they actually pull it off - layers inside layers... /

471 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:13:31am

re: #465 lawhawk

The cynic in me is hoping for a popular win by Romney, an EC win by Obama so I can watch the partisans that flipped out in 2000 have to go full reverse.

472 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:15:21am

re: #470 lawhawk

/of course, that we're saying this gives cover to when they actually pull it off - layers inside layers... /

Also of course, anybody who really knows what might or might not happen isn't talking to the the press about it unless there's a reason. If they do talk there's a 50-50 chance what they're saying is bullshit to keep the Iranians on their toes.

473 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:16:24am

re: #470 lawhawk

There have been rumblings that someone (Israel/US) have developed an EMP type device that would knock out communications and non-hardened electronics, which would give someone a distinct advantage in those scenarios, but hardening against an EMP is something that modern military forces understand. If Iran's working on a nuclear program, they're also likely working on the effects of an EMP - both as an offensive and as defensive countermeasures.

Still, the logistics of a ground type attack pushes this kind of discussion into the realm of movie fantasy.

/of course, that we're saying this gives cover to when they actually pull it off - layers inside layers... /

Actually, Iran worked on EMP defenses and responses a few decades ago. We did some training and help for them back when the Shah was in charge, and then there was the help they got from the Chinese and Russians.

EMP would shut down (some) civilian comms and electronics. Military? Not so much.

474 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:18:23am

re: #469 ggt

I was just told I was RC in name only and a deceiver on a fb page.

Best compliment I heard in weeks.

Does one have to be excommunicated by the Church to no longer be RC in name?

475 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:21:06am

re: #474 wrenchwench

Does one have to be excommunicated by the Church to no longer be RC in name?

According to the person I was "talking" with, he is the determiner, I guess. I told him to keep drinking the cool-aid and wished him the best. It's counter-productive to point-out that such people are ursurping their sky-god's job.

476 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:21:45am

re: #475 ggt

According to the person I was "talking" with, he is the determiner, I guess.

Tell him I'd like to be expunged from the roster, please.

477 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:22:15am
478 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:22:41am

re: #474 wrenchwench

Does one have to be excommunicated by the Church to no longer be RC in name?

No mechanism for that--you'd just be an excommunicated Catholic. Once baptized, always on the list. Takes the old 'Confession", now "Reconciliation" to get back. Don't even collect back dues.

479 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:22:54am

re: #477 Gus

[Embedded content]

Amercia!

;)

480 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:22:58am

re: #476 wrenchwench

Tell him I'd like to be expunged from the roster, please.

LOL. I know I probably have been, haven't contributed in years.

481 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:23:10am

re: #479 Varek Raith

Amercia!

;)

But Iran!

//

482 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:23:27am

re: #481 Gus

But Iran!

//

Cake walk!

483 Joanne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:23:49am

re: #477 Gus

Love this (and the others). Bravo.

484 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:24:05am

re: #478 Decatur Deb

No mechanism for that--you'd just be an excommunicated Catholic. Once baptized, always on the list. Takes the old 'Confession", now "Reconciliation to get back. Don't even collect back dues.

"You can check in any time you like, but you can never leave." --Hotel Vaticalifornia

485 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:24:29am

re: #465 lawhawk

Obama losing the popular vote but winning in the Electoral College would be a nightmare. I don't know if I can stand four years of nonstop and heightened volume "Usurper in Chief" wingnut howling. There are probably many that would would simply refuse to accept it, the consequences don't bear thinking about. :(

486 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:24:34am

re: #482 Varek Raith

Cake walk!

Piece of cake. All it should take is one nighttime commando raid.

//

487 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:25:08am

re: #486 Gus

Piece of cake. All it should take is one nighttime commando raid.

//

Man, you'd think they'd learn after Iraq...
Delusional fools.

488 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:25:45am

re: #153 Varek Raith

1. Attacking Iran will not be easy or quick. If you think so, you are delusional.

2. We will only delay the nuclear program. Unless you see regime change as the goal of the attack.

3. We will need a ground invasion for 2.

4. ?

5. Cake walk and being treated as liberators blah blah blah.

Relevant again, it would seem.
;)

489 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:25:56am

re: #484 wrenchwench

"You can check in any time you like, but you can never leave." --Hotel Vaticalifornia

Guy sounded like a convert --all evangelical and such.

490 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:29:49am

I missed most of the news because of the hamsters --silly isn't it. I come here first an If I can't get on --I skip the rest of my current events sites.

What happened the last couple of days?

491 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:30:53am

re: #485 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

Obama losing the popular vote but winning in the Electoral College would be a nightmare. I don't know if I can stand four years of nonstop and heightened volume "Usurper in Chief" wingnut howling. There are probably many that would would simply refuse to accept it, the consequences don't bear thinking about. :(

You have summed up my personal worst case scenario, the worst thing to hit this nation since 1860.

Needless to say, the 2000 elections would not receive any mention.

492 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:31:29am

re: #490 ggt

I missed most of the news because of the hamsters --silly isn't it. I come here first an If I can't get on --I skip the rest of my current events sites.

What happened the last couple of days?

Mostly big bird and honey boo boo. Romney got a modest bump in the polls.

493 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:32:26am

re: #492 Killgore Trout

Mostly big bird and honey boo boo. Romney got a modest bump in the polls.

Oh, well then, the hamsters were just spinning their wheels?

494 efuseakay  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:32:33am

re: #408 Killgore Trout

It seems unlikely to me too but check out the details in the second link...

I suppose it could be possible but I really have no idea.

Sure. They can "project power" anywhere in the region. But so can Hezbullah, and they have the luxury of using non-uniformed attackers to carry out attacks on unprotected civilian targets.

495 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:33:02am

Some bluntness, again.

1) Iran's nuclear program is not the boogeyman many want to make it out to be. Not least is the fact they've converted a lot of their enhanced uranium to "power plates", which are extremely difficult to convert to weapon systems.

2) Iran's military capabilities are good. Depending on scoring method use they're low first or high second tier. The two biggest cues: they have their own strategic logistics system, and they conduct integrated training on a regular basis. Quality of equipment is their short-fall, and I keep remembering Tigers and Panthers vs Shermans in WWII, or Shermans vs T54/55s in 1973.

3) Iran would not be alone. Whether we like it or not, China has a vested interest - just to name one nation. For that matter, India, South Korea, and Japan all get a hefty percentage of their oil from Iran.

4) Spending off that, an attack on Iran sends oil prices skyrocketing. A sustained war -- and anything that didn't force immediate surrender brings sustained war -- supports the speculative spike with actual oil production shortfalls. Whether the US could keep the passage open or not, the straits of Hormuz become a war zone for insurance purposes. Anybody who thinks the US, or any other nation, would be immune from the consequences of that oil spike is smoking their own weed.

21 days, minimum, of 10 to 30% shortfalls in global oil exports to nations that have, on average, 14 days of reserves. Do the math and you can see somebody will get shorted. The cascading effects of that are global conflict followed by a resolution that, well, is mostly unpredictable -- except the biggest surviving sticks choose the outlines.

496 Mocking Jay  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:34:05am

re: #485 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

Obama losing the popular vote but winning in the Electoral College would be a nightmare. I don't know if I can stand four years of nonstop and heightened volume "Usurper in Chief" wingnut howling. There are probably many that would would simply refuse to accept it, the consequences don't bear thinking about. :(

At least then we might be motivated to do something about the EC.

497 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:34:27am

re: #495 kirkspencer

One word: recession. Would make 1973 look like a pimple on a donkey's butt.

498 AK-47%  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:35:12am

re: #496 Mocking Jay

At least then we might be motivated to do something about the EC.

2000 did not do it. I am for keeping the EC, but only applying it only if no candidate gaines a clear majority of the popular vote.

499 Mocking Jay  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:35:57am

re: #498 AK-47%

2000 did not do it. I am for keeping the EC, but only applying it only if no candidate gaines a clear majority of the popular vote.

No, but things tend to get done when Republicans really want them...

500 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:36:05am

someone refresh my memory. Siggy Freuds's nephew who created the marketing "cold war" fear method of controlling the population. That guy, who is his heir apparent?

501 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:36:52am

re: #494 efuseakay

Sure. They can "project power" anywhere in the region. But so can Hezbullah, and they have the luxury of using non-uniformed attackers to carry out attacks on unprotected civilian targets.

Not really. Hezbollah does operate internationally but not very successfully. They are thankfully inept and most plots seem to fail or get busted but they only have to get lucky every once in a while.

502 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:38:17am

re: #493 ggt

If you're talking about problems with the site, something Destro paged got picked up on Reddit and flooded the site, causing all sorts of shenanigans that caused Charles to sprout a few gray hairs.

503 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:40:18am

re: #502 Ghost of Tom Joad

If you're talking about problems with the site, something Destro paged got picked up on Reddit and flooded the site, causing all sorts of shenanigans that caused Charles to sprout a few gray hairs.

Yeah, I know. I got that much then decided the spinning wheel of site loading was stuck and I would never get further, so I logged off. Seemed better in the middle of the night, but I had to sleep. I feel like I've been away for weeks.

LOL

504 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:40:33am

Derp.

505 Joanne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:40:44am

re: #485 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

Obama losing the popular vote but winning in the Electoral College would be a nightmare. I don't know if I can stand four years of nonstop and heightened volume "Usurper in Chief" wingnut howling. There are probably many that would would simply refuse to accept it, the consequences don't bear thinking about. :(

They're going to use that no matter what. Obama will always be illegitimate in their eyes.

506 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:41:59am

re: #504 Gus

[Embedded content]

Derp.

Did they break that poll down by who graduated college? Would probably explain a lot.

507 Mocking Jay  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:42:12am

re: #504 Gus

[Embedded content]

Derp.

Childrens do learn.

508 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:42:23am

re: #505 Joanne (JustJay)

They're going to use that no matter what. Obama will always be illegitimate in their eyes.

Very true. He might has well be Klingon. Actually, a Klingon would be more familiar to them and being a war-like, alpha male, acceptable.

509 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:42:28am

Iran caught passing around more weapons, this time in Yemen.

Yemen seizes Iranian arms

Yemen authorities have seized Iranian military equipment slated for rebels aboard a cargo ship at the port of Hodeidah, sources told Asharq al-Awsat.

Security sources in Yemen told the London Arabic daily, equipment to manufacture missiles and ammunition was found on the ship and confiscated Saturday. The sources said the equipment was headed to Shiite Huthi rebels in the Saada province mountains for an arms factory.

A source said the Huthi rebels in control of the area are "manufacturing short-range missiles to increase their [military] capabilities with the help of Hezbollah experts and technicians."

Other military and political sources in Yemen told the newspaper Hezbollah experts have trained the rebels to manufacture and assemble missiles.

The sources also pointed to Iran's growing involvement, saying Tehran has sought to stockpile missiles in Yemen to use in the event of a military strike on Iranian nuclear sites to "attack international power lines in the Red Sea and the Arabian Sea."

510 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:42:35am

re: #507 Mocking Jay

Childrens do learn.

Outrage!

511 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:42:48am

re: #507 Mocking Jay

Childrens do learn.

512 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:43:29am

re: #511 Gus

[Embedded content]

Can you do one that says: "Whacko" ?

513 darthstar  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:43:41am

re: #511 Gus

See? Now I'd be adding every one of those to a bumper sticker on cafepress.

514 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:43:58am

re: #504 Gus

[Embedded content]

Derp.

That's really horrific. What the fuck? University professors are one of the main reasons that the US has remained an economically and politically powerful nation. The wellspring of wealth and power is technology and education.

What fucking assholes.

515 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:44:29am

re: #513 darthstar

See? Now I'd be adding every one of those to a bumper sticker on cafepress.

Yeah. Thought about that. Not sure I can legally use the Romney logo however.

516 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:45:30am

re: #515 Gus

Yeah. Thought about that. Not sure I can legally use the Romney logo however.

Let darth test that one out.
;)

517 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:45:32am

re: #445 Killgore Trout

Wow, they're really playing with fire here.

American Exceptionalism - we fly our drones where ever we want and no one should complain about it, so shut up.
///

518 darthstar  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:45:41am

re: #515 Gus

Yeah. Thought about that. Not sure I can legally use the Romney logo however.

My Obama sticker got bounced this year...after a few sales. Their legal department is pretty good about flagging these things, but if you reversed the color of the red and blue you might get away with it.

519 Lidane  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:45:49am

re: #514 Obdicut

That's really horrific. What the fuck? University professors are one of the main reasons that the US has remained an economically and politically powerful nation. The wellspring of wealth and power is technology and education.

Pointy-headed Ivory Tower elitists! Librul indoctrination centers! Eleventy!

520 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:45:53am

re: #512 ggt

Can you do one that says: "Whacko" ?

There is no R in whacko, would make it kind of tough to brand it...

521 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:46:31am

re: #518 darthstar

My Obama sticker got bounced this year...after a few sales. Their legal department is pretty good about flagging these things, but if you reversed the color of the red and blue you might get away with it.

Maybe. I'd have to make a similar design but not an exact duplicate.

522 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:46:35am

re: #520 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

There is no R in whacko, would make it kind of tough to brand it...

Unless you are Scooby...

523 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:47:11am

re: #522 Varek Raith

Unless you are Scooby...

Wharcko

524 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:47:38am

Ritt Romney.

525 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:47:41am

I have a friend who is an awesome homeschooler. She has a house full of kids and animals. She just posted on fb that while doing math this morning her 6 yo told he that he just saw something fall from the sky and he had to go check-it-out. All the kids got up and followed him. It was part of a squirrel nest that had fallen from a tree and now they are on a nature hunt and research expedition.

Why couldn't I have school like that?

526 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:49:07am

re: #495 kirkspencer

Good analysis.

The US can not afford, in money or lives, any kind of war with Iran right now. We'll be repairing the damage done to the military by our Iraq & Afghanistan misadventures for a generation as it is. A war with Iran would get as a third Pyrrhic victory at best.

527 Joanne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:49:08am

re: #514 Obdicut

That's really horrific. What the fuck? University professors are one of the main reasons that the US has remained an economically and politically powerful nation. The wellspring of wealth and power is technology and education.

What fucking assholes.

If you watched the Brown/Warren debate last night, he basically blamed the cost of higher education on Warren's salary at Harvard. That had to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Because every American can attend Harvard (let's set costs aside)? Blisteringly stupid.

528 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:49:52am

re: #512 ggt

Can you do one that says: "Whacko" ?

No 'R' in whacko!

529 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:50:41am

re: #520 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

There is no R in whacko, would make it kind of tough to brand it...

There is an asian accent joke in there.

How about 'RACKED" with romney in a dog crate?

530 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:51:09am

re: #468 kirkspencer

You just don't hang out with the right kind of people. Seriously, I had to spend time with people who thought it would be a good thing, and that any real angst could be sidetracked by claiming the attacks were with conventional weapons but "those darn poorly made Iranian nukes just went off in sympathetic detonation."

No, no sarc tags. I got fed that for a few hours, along with the belief that the Europeans would be too wishy washy to respond, that most nations would be too scared of Israel's nuclear might, and that the US (or at least the Real Americans) would back Israel on this, blocking Russian and Chinese responses.

Their little world has them blinded.

That last part almost sounds like a power offering another one "carte blanche" in helping them make other powers back off while they acted. That idea worked so well for Europe in 1914.

531 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:51:17am

re: #529 ggt

There is an asian accent joke in there.

How about 'RACKED" with romney in a dog crate?

Image: vr7KUExgR8r.jpg

532 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:51:59am
533 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:52:35am

re: #530 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

That last part almost sounds like a power offering another one "carte blanche" in helping them make other powers back off while they acted. That idea worked so well for Europe in 1914.

Help me out, didn't some carving-up of colonies happen in 1889? Like a pre-cursor to the Treaty of Versailles?

534 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:53:34am

I'm Ritt Romney rand I arove ris ressage.
Rooby-Rooby-Doo!

535 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:54:34am

re: #528 makeitstop

No 'R' in whacko!

NOR an "I".

536 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:55:03am

re: #528 makeitstop

No 'R' in whacko!

WAIT A MINUTE!!!!

There is a "W" in Willard . . . . .

537 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:58:22am

To get back to the subject of ER as a health care option for a moment.

As I've indicated a few days back, I've been dealing with medical issues for family and friends that have bordered on life-threatening. That means I've become intimately aware of the medical treatments and costs associated with ER.

ER health costs are far higher than those when cases could be diverted and treated at other facilities. Hospitals have long recognized this and many have shifted those kinds of cases to clinics or acute care facilities (hospital run, but less costly than an ER). ER facilties have higher costs due to the level of care they are expected to handle. You need specific personnel, levels of care and tech, and if you flood an ER with a bunch of flu cases (or other relatively mild ailments that would normally be treated by a personal physician, you're diverting care/doctors/nurses/equipment/tests from those who actually need those items and care.

And it becomes a reimbursement issue when you have people not coming in with insurance, let alone a capacity to pay.

A basic ER visit (uncomplicated) can run a couple hundred bucks - including the cost of a doctor to review your situation, the nurses, and exclusive of any tests that might be done. That's unsustainable - and even Romney realized that when he was governor in MA, when he instituted his state's version of what later became Obamacare.

538 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:00:45am

re: #533 ggt

Help me out, didn't some carving-up of colonies happen in 1889? Like a pre-cursor to the Treaty of Versailles?

Samoa? [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

1884 Berlin Conference might be what you are looking for.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

539 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:01:19am

re: #537 lawhawk

To get back to the subject of ER as a health care option for a moment.

As I've indicated a few days back, I've been dealing with medical issues for family and friends that have bordered on life-threatening. That means I've become intimately aware of the medical treatments and costs associated with ER.

ER health costs are far higher than those when cases could be diverted and treated at other facilities. Hospitals have long recognized this and many have shifted those kinds of cases to clinics or acute care facilities (hospital run, but less costly than an ER). ER facilties have higher costs due to the level of care they are expected to handle. You need specific personnel, levels of care and tech, and if you flood an ER with a bunch of flu cases (or other relatively mild ailments that would normally be treated by a personal physician, you're diverting care/doctors/nurses/equipment/tests from those who actually need those items and care.

And it becomes a reimbursement issue when you have people not coming in with insurance, let alone a capacity to pay.

A basic ER visit (uncomplicated) can run a couple hundred bucks - including the cost of a doctor to review your situation, the nurses, and exclusive of any tests that might be done. That's unsustainable - and even Romney realized that when he was governor in MA, when he instituted his state's version of what later became Obamacare.

If everyone had their medical history on a a thumb driver --on in the Cloud, woudn't an ER or Urgent Care visit be cheaper. No unecessary tests --if an xray or blood test was run recently, the Triage doctor would have no need to retest. If there is a history of anything, it would be apparent and the Triage doctor would be able to make judgments almost like a family doctor that knows your history.

???

540 darthstar  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:02:21am

re: #523 Gus

Wharcko

WhRRRacko Shaggy!

541 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:03:07am

re: #527 Joanne (JustJay)

Blaming teachers is just the new Republican mantra. You can throw in just about every other public servant or government employee into that list. The 2 things Republicans have been most successful at (hell, possibly the only 2 things in recent history) have been, to steal a movie line, is making you afraid of it, and telling you who's to blame for it.

They've convinced their supporters that it's better to try and drag other people down than to try and make their own lives better. You don't have health care, a pension, vacation/sick days, a decent wage, or safe working conditions? Blame the unions, the teachers, the public employees! How dare they have something you don't!

Yet, at the same time, profits and executive compensation is at stratospheric levels.

542 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:03:16am

Willard "WHACKO' ROMNEY

What's rong with that just that?

543 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:03:37am

re: #515 Gus

Yeah. Thought about that. Not sure I can legally use the Romney logo however.

The Cafepress legal team regularly allows this.

544 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:05:08am

OT: I just did the NYT crossword for today. The clue for 30 down was "Dingo prey", 4 letters. Am I a bad person because my very first thought was "baby"?

545 dragonath  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:09:51am

re: #389 lawhawk

New jobless claims drop to 4-year low. But as Obama's critics contend, the numbers are bunk (particularly because they undercut the GOP claims that Obama hasn't gotten the job done):

I was curious to see when the next unemployment report comes through, and it's scheduled for November the 2nd.

The last unemployment report must have broken up the partisan narrative a bit, I saw places like Yahoo News trying to run stories about the "real" unemployment report.

547 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:12:07am

Kucinich: US 'Immeasurably' Closer to War in Syria

Ohio Democratic Rep. Dennis Kucinich believes the deployment of American troops in Jordan — which was announced Wednesday — brings the United States "immeasurably" closer to being dragged into the civil war in Syria.

"I can see in a moment how it happens: we're a few dozen miles from the Syrian border and all of a sudden we are within the reach of physical danger. All it takes is a single incident," Kucinich said in a phone interview with U.S. News.

The Ohio congressman complained that the commander-in-chief sent the troops to Jordan "without notifying Congress." Ironically, Kucinich noted, the Obama administration announced the deployment exactly ten years after the House of Representatives authorized President George W. Bush to invade Iraq.

The chance of chemical weapons getting lose into the wrong hands doesn't seem to concern him.

548 R.M, Ramallo  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:12:49am

cha'R'latan

There. I contributed.
:-)

549 dragonath  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:13:15am

Looking through this thread as it transpired last night, I can kind of expect Dark Falcon to be somewhat partisan, and Killgore to press some buttons, but when BryanS shows up, I know he's going to be completely mendacious.

550 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:13:35am

The dingo ate your baby!

551 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:14:19am

re: #547 NJDhockeyfan

Kucinich: US 'Immeasurably' Closer to War in Syria

The chance of chemical weapons getting lose into the wrong hands doesn't seem to concern him.

Peace at all costs!

552 erik_t  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:14:44am

re: #547 NJDhockeyfan

Kucinich: US 'Immeasurably' Closer to War in Syria

Kucinich is a well-meaning stale fart in a following breeze. I won't miss him.

553 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:16:46am

Darrel Issa is actually dumber than Joe McCarthy.

GOP plans investigation into Jobs Numbers Conspiracy!!1111eleven

554 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:18:02am

re: #543 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

The Cafepress legal team regularly allows this.

They nixed two of mine-- I haven't paid much attention to them since. Seems they have "god" fixation.

555 dragonath  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:18:10am

re: #548 Reverend Mother Ramallo

cha'R'latan

There. I contributed.
:-)

Ha. At first I thought you were trying to speak with a Klingon accent..

556 Mocking Jay  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:18:46am

re: #553 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Darrel Issa is actually dumber than Joe McCarthy.

GOP plans investigation into Jobs Numbers Conspiracy!!1111eleven

That's... that's not an Onion link. :(

557 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:18:47am

re: #544 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

OT: I just did the NYT crossword for today. The clue for 30 down was "Dingo prey", 4 letters. Am I a bad person because my very first thought was "baby"?

That wasn't the answer?

558 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:18:47am

In which I'll complain about people bringing up Big Bird by bringing up Big Bird.

//

559 Mocking Jay  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:20:31am

Anything that might make this president look good must be fabricated...

560 Kragar  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:20:31am

Seems like hitting the "New Comments" button means "make the page stop responding until you reload the page."

561 Mocking Jay  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:20:57am

re: #560 Kragar

Seems like hitting the "New Comments" button means "make the page stop responding until you reload the page."

Not for me.

562 The Mongoose  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:21:46am

re: #560 Kragar

Seems like hitting the "New Comments" button means "make the page stop responding until you reload the page."

Nor me.

563 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:22:11am

re: #343 Killgore Trout

The drones are busy, it's usually a sign that we're on to someone big. There might be an advancement opportunity soon for a new Al Qaeda #2.
US drone strike kills 11 in NWA

Terrorist body count is up to 16.

Suspected U.S. drone strike kills 16 in Pakistan

564 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:23:25am

re: #554 ggt

They nixed two of mine-- I haven't paid much attention to them since. Seems they have "god" fixation.

I have a lot of stuff on CP and I've only heard from the legal team when there was at least a potential for a copyright problem. I think they're a little over-cautious, maybe, but not otherwise objectionable in my experience.

565 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:23:26am

re: #539 ggt

Having those records in a cloud/thumb drive form might reduce certain kinds of costs, but increases others. It would increase costs associated with building, maintaining, and constantly upgrading those medical data files (and keeping them in a readily accessible format).

While it might reduce health care costs to some individual patients (due to not having to redo some tests or procedures), having electronic medical records at hand improves the standard of care by providing the treating doctor with a better patient history than if someone just walked in without any. That's where the real cost savings comes in - the doctor can see that based on what they previously did, plus current symptoms, can be treated in X method. It's why hospitals have invested in tech systems to help reduce doctor error, scrip errors, etc., all of which increase costs due to error. And reducing human errors also reduces societal costs resulting from malpractice (think lawsuits, insurance, etc.)

566 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:23:59am

re: #560 Kragar

Seems like hitting the "New Comments" button means "make the page stop responding until you reload the page."

It was doing that to me yesterday.

567 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:24:03am

re: #563 NJDhockeyfan

Terrorist body count is up to 16.

Suspected U.S. drone strike kills 16 in Pakistan

I think I also saw reports as high as 20-30. Hopefully a high value target.

568 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:24:48am

re: #560 Kragar

Seems like hitting the "New Comments" button means "make the page stop responding until you reload the page."

Same for me.

569 R.M, Ramallo  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:24:51am

Why am I starting to associate Darryll Issa with Don Quixote?

570 foobear2  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:24:51am

re: #103 Bob Dillon

Yep, the R's took a shot at the President and made public information that should have been closely held.

The information can't have been that closely held, since the Times reported it over two weeks ago:

Deadly Attack in Libya Was Major Blow to C.I.A. Efforts

571 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:24:56am

re: #566 Sionainn

Might be the browser involved; things are okay with FF 15.01 here.

572 Mocking Jay  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:25:20am

I'm leaving now for the comic con and you're not.

My next post shall be from Javitz. Ta ta for now!

573 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:25:53am

re: #569 Reverend Mother Ramallo

Why am I starting to associate Darryll Issa with Don Quixote?

He attacks windmills or wears bowls on his head?

574 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:26:12am
575 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:26:19am

ha ha ha

576 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:26:21am

re: #569 Reverend Mother Ramallo

They both have a thing with wind farms?

577 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:26:25am

re: #563 NJDhockeyfan

Terrorist body count is up to 16.

Suspected U.S. drone strike kills 16 in Pakistan

If Obama treats his friends like this, imagine what he would do to his enemies. No wonder the wingnuts are so scared of him. As the great Alex Jones advises, watch the skies and be afraid. Be very afraid.
//

578 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:26:44am

Fucking Republicans.

579 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:26:45am

re: #571 lawhawk

Might be the browser involved; things are okay with FF 15.01 here.

I've got FF, no idea what version, though. It's not doing it to me today.

580 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:26:46am

re: #560 Kragar

Seems like hitting the "New Comments" button means "make the page stop responding until you reload the page."

I'm getting that intermittently. I'm learning not to just sit there and look at the little spinny thing.

581 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:27:12am

re: #577 Shiplord Kirel

If Obama treats his friends like this, imagine what he would do to his enemies. No wonder the wingnuts are so scared of him. As the great Alex Jones advises, watch the skies and be afraid. Be very afraid.
//

thought I sa one of those sky blue helicopters the other day . . . .

582 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:27:18am

re: #579 Sionainn

You can find the version under Help>About Firefox

583 foobear2  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:27:18am

re: #577 Shiplord Kirel

As the great Alex Jones advises, watch the skies and be afraid. Be very afraid.

Not the dreaded chemtrails?!?

585 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:28:12am

re: #582 lawhawk

You can find the version under Help>About Firefox

Ah, it's 15.0.1.

586 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:28:36am

re: #570 foobear2

The information can't have been that closely held, since the Times reported it over two weeks ago:

Deadly Attack in Libya Was Major Blow to C.I.A. Efforts

Read the article again. It just says that among the people evacuated were CIA personnel.

587 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:28:38am

re: #557 ggt

That wasn't the answer?

Sadly, no.

[Spoiler alert]
snɯǝ
[/spoiler alert]

588 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:28:48am

re: #584 NJDhockeyfan

Obama campaign refers to liberal bloggers as “tinfoil hat crowd”

Heh.

What about the gold-plated tin-foil hat crowd?

589 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:29:09am

re: #587 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Sadly, no.

[Spoiler alert]
snɯǝ
[/spoiler alert]

NO WAY! Really?

590 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:29:14am

re: #584 NJDhockeyfan

Obama campaign refers to liberal bloggers as “tinfoil hat crowd”

Heh.

Anyone who believes stupid conspiracies is part of the "tinfoil hat crowd."

591 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:29:39am

re: #588 ggt

What about the gold-plated tin-foil hat crowd?

Those are the 1% tin-foil hat crowd.

592 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:29:47am

Top of the Dkos rec list: A Devastating Expose of Mitt Romney's Mistreatment of Mormon Women Emerges
Allegations that Mitt forced women not to get abortions or something.

593 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:30:01am

re: #570 foobear2

The information can't have been that closely held, since the Times reported it over two weeks ago:

Deadly Attack in Libya Was Major Blow to C.I.A. Efforts

Yeah, but nobody reads the NYT.
/

594 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:30:12am

re: #547 NJDhockeyfan

Kucinich: US 'Immeasurably' Closer to War in Syria

The chance of chemical weapons getting lose into the wrong hands doesn't seem to concern him.

If it bothered anyone that held any political sway, we would be talking about invading our friend Pakistan.

595 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:30:47am

re: #587 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Sadly, no.

[Spoiler alert]
snɯǝ
[/spoiler alert]

Took me a minute to get that. /smacks head

596 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:30:55am

re: #583 foobear2

Not the dreaded chemtrails?!?

Those too. The special spray interferes with AM radio reception, thereby taking down the wingnut command and control system.

re: #581 ggt

thought I sa one of those sky blue helicopters the other day . . . .

Nah, we're way past that stage now. We have drones that can swoop down and grab SUVs right off the freeway, wingnuts and all.

597 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:30:59am

re: #538 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Samoa? [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

1884 Berlin Conference might be what you are looking for.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

YOU ARE AWESOME!

598 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:31:15am

re: #579 Sionainn

I've got FF, no idea what version, though. It's not doing it to me today.

Me too, version 15.0.1. I've seen it several times over the past few days. In fact, about 5 minutes ago I tried to post a comment saying I hadn't seen it yet today, when (lo and behold) it happened to me when I clicked "Post It", and the comment was lost. So the problem is still there for me, but intermittent.

599 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:31:29am

re: #589 ggt

NO WAY! Really?

I kid you not.

600 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:32:46am

re: #584 NJDhockeyfan

Obama campaign refers to liberal bloggers as “tinfoil hat crowd”

Heh.

More like The Obama campaign referred to several major liberal bloggers as the “tinfoil hat crowd” in a statement to Fox News Wednesday. Not liberal bloggers in general.

Heck. I'd like to see Romney call out the lunatic right-wing bloggers on his side. Won't happen.

601 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:33:15am

‘Holy Jihad’ is the only way to deal with Israel, says Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood chief

Egypt’s foremost Muslim Brotherhood official called on the Arab world Thursday to replace negotiations with Israel with “holy Jihad,” claiming that if Jews are allowed to pray on the Temple Mount they will destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque and supplant it with the third temple.

Mohammed Badie, Supreme Guide of the Muslim Brotherhood, declared in a public message published by Egyptian daily Al-Ahram that “the Zionists only understand force,” and that Arabs cannot hope to achieve justice from the Jews “through the corridors of the United Nations or through negotiations.”

Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi was the Muslim Brotherhood’s presidential candidate, but he resigned all official positions in the movement upon taking office. He has said that his government would uphold the Camp David peace accords with Israel, and recently named a new ambassador to Israel.

“The time has come for the Islamic nation to unite around one man for the sake of Jerusalem and Palestine,” Badie said. “The Jews have dominated the land, spread corruption on earth, spilled the blood of believers and in their actions profaned holy places, including their own.”

Asshole.

602 DREd  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:33:19am

As usual, you are all mindlessly talking about irrelevant issues while ignoring the horrible truth staring you in the face: Obama is wearing a secret Sharia ring.

[Link: www.wnd.com...]

603 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:34:04am

re: #584 NJDhockeyfan

Obama campaign refers to liberal bloggers as “tinfoil hat crowd”

Heh.

It is a problem. Everybody falls for a bogus story or just tosses something out there for discussion but it's become a chronic problem. One fake story after another.

604 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:34:06am

re: #599 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

I kid you not.

I never would have gotten that. I would have a mental block at "baby".

:)

605 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:34:55am

re: #603 Killgore Trout

The vast, vast majority of it coming from the right.
At least Obama has the guts to call out the lefty ones.
When will Mitt do the same for his side?

606 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:35:20am

re: #602 DREd

As usual, you are all mindlessly talking about irrelevant issues while ignoring the horrible truth staring you in the face: Obama is wearing a secret Sharia ring.

[Link: www.wnd.com...]

Yeah, I saw that.

I hear there are some old master artwork of Christian saints with arabic letters that really read "Mohommad is the prophet . . ."

If people only knew history.

607 foobear2  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:35:36am

re: #586 Obdicut

Read the article again. It just says that among the people evacuated were CIA personnel.

Are you sure about that? To my reading, the article indicated that the CIA was operating out of the annex. At the very least, the Times was reporting that they were operating out of either the annex or the mission:

The attack has raised questions about the adequacy of security preparations at the two American compounds in Benghazi: the American mission, the main diplomatic facility where Mr. Stevens and another American diplomat died of smoke inhalation after an initial attack, and an annex a half-mile away that encompassed four buildings inside a low-walled compound.

From among these buildings, the C.I.A. personnel carried out their secret missions. The New York Times agreed to withhold locations and details of these operations at the request of Obama administration officials, who said that disclosing such information could jeopardize future sensitive government activities and put at risk American personnel working in dangerous settings.

Was the disclosure yesterday any more specific than this? Were there references during the hearing to some specific address or were details of intelligence operations disclosed?

608 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:35:52am

re: #603 Killgore Trout

It is a problem. Everybody falls for a bogus story or just tosses something out there for discussion but it's become a chronic problem. One fake story after another.

Yep. Everybody falls for a bogus story. Everybody.

609 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:37:03am

re: #592 Killgore Trout

Top of the Dkos rec list: A Devastating Expose of Mitt Romney's Mistreatment of Mormon Women Emerges
Allegations that Mitt forced women not to get abortions or something.

Yeah, there's a pretty well-proved history of Romney counseling women to not get abortions.

610 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:37:17am

re: #608 Gus

Yep. Everybody falls for a bogus story. Everybody.

Oh, Gus, leave him alone. He's concerned.

611 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:37:24am

re: #607 foobear2

Was the disclosure yesterday any more specific than this? Were there references during the hearing to some specific address or were details of intelligence operations disclosed?

Why don't you go find out?

612 erik_t  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:37:24am

re: #607 foobear2

Are you sure about that? To my reading, the article indicated that the CIA was operating out of the annex. At the very least, the Times was reporting that they were operating out of either the annex or the mission:

Dissemination of classified information does not remove its classification. Ask any number of federal employees who were strongly cautioned against looking at anything related to Wikileaks.

613 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:37:28am

re: #587 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Sadly, no.

[Spoiler alert]
snɯǝ
[/spoiler alert]

Obviously creatures from the Land Down Under.

614 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:37:55am

re: #608 Gus

Yep. Everybody falls for a bogus story. Everybody.

Everyone but Killgore. He's the only intelligent, independent man on the internet, and he can't get no respect.

615 darthstar  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:37:58am

re: #584 NJDhockeyfan

Obama campaign refers to liberal bloggers as “tinfoil hat crowd”

Heh.

Yeah, we've got a tinfoil hat crowd too, only as you can see, our elected representatives don't give them much attention. Republicans, however, cater to the tinfoil hat base they have (see Romney, Mitt - birther asshole) in order to win their approval.

Big difference.

616 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:38:12am

re: #609 Obdicut

Yeah, there's a pretty well-proved history of Romney counseling women to not get abortions.

Yep, sticking his nose where it doesn't belong and trying to tell women what they should do. He's a dick.

617 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:38:14am

re: #596 Shiplord Kirel

Those too. The special spray interferes with AM radio reception, thereby taking down the wingnut command and control system.

re: #581 ggt

Nah, we're way past that stage now. We have drones that can swoop down and grab SUVs right off the freeway, wingnuts and all.

Gene-engineered giant keas!

618 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:38:53am

re: #602 DREd

As usual, you are all mindlessly talking about irrelevant issues while ignoring the horrible truth staring you in the face: Obama is wearing a secret Sharia ring.

[Link: Weird Nut Drooly]

Just a hint: please try not to link directly to batshit sites, use a Google cache link if you can.

619 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:40:10am

re: #606 ggt

Yeah, I saw that.

I hear there are some old master artwork of Christian saints with arabic letters that really read "Mohommad is the prophet . . ."

If people only knew history.

If you read the Bible backwards is there a hidden subliminal message about the supremacy of Mohammed and Sharia Law there?
:p

620 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:40:21am

re: #596 Shiplord Kirel

[snip]

Nah, we're way past that stage now. We have drones that can swoop down and grab SUVs right off the freeway, wingnuts and all.

That would be so cool if they could make the drones look like Pterodactyls.

Friend to buddy, "Th' fuck ... you see that?"
Buddy, "Dude you are always freaking when you hit this bong."

621 Kragar  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:41:03am

After 35 minutes, I've accepted the fact that there is no way to get in touch with an actual person using the San Diego courts phone system.

"Please use the number on your courtesy notice..."
"I need to report I never got a courtesy notice."
"Please use the number on your courtesy notice..."
"I hate you so much."
"Please use the number on your courtesy notice..."

622 Gus  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:41:07am
623 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:41:54am

re: #622 Gus

[Embedded content]

I do believe that is a 'burn'.
;)

624 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:42:06am

Romney's personal history of, as a Mormon bishop, telling women not to get abortions even when their lives are in danger from the pregnancy is one of the reasons why I don't think his social conservatism is an act. I think his semi-moderateness in Massachusetts (only semi, given how many vetos he put out) was the pander. How he's acted in his personal life certainly points to a religious conviction that life begins at conception, and this is his reflected in his pledge that he'd be delighted to sign a bill banning all abortion.

I don't get people who've convinced themselves that he's actually a moderate on this issue. Wishful thinking.

625 DREd  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:42:42am

re: #618 Sheila Broflovski

re: #618 Sheila Broflovski

Just a hint: please try not to link directly to batshit sites, use a Google cache link if you can.

I'll learn how to do that and do it in the future. My bad.

626 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 11:04:35am

re: #570 foobear2

The information can't have been that closely held, since the Times reported it over two weeks ago:

Deadly Attack in Libya Was Major Blow to C.I.A. Efforts

That information is in the article linked at the top.

That the Benghazi compound had included a large CIA presence had been reported but not confirmed. The New York Times, for example, had reported that among those evacuated were “about a dozen CIA operatives and contractors.” The paper, like The Washington Post, withheld locations and details of the facilities at the administration’s request.

Emphasis added for the reading-impaired.

627 cinesimon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:23:47pm

re: #607 foobear2

Though it's hard to understand why anyone should need to explain this to anyone who's actually bothered to look at this issue beyond the bylines:
In layman's terms, it's known as a "map".
You'll notice that this device was up and being referred to during the public congressional investigation.
Indeed, it is the first time that the CIA buildings had been publicly identified.
The newspaper articles you seem to want to use as cover for the GOP explicitly stated they would not give addresses or locations of the buildings for security reasons.


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