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1 zora  Tue, Dec 28, 2010 1:12:23pm

enlightening read.

2 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Dec 28, 2010 1:37:40pm

True Story:
When I was 13 or 14 - 1973 / 74 or so, my brother and I were given great tickets to see the NY Rangers by a friend of my fathers. We took our seats and settled in when an entourage of 7 people or so, making quite a commotion, was coming down the aisle. After a few minutes and about 6 rows in front of us, Henry K, his security and people were taking their seats. There was a slight hush as Henry was the last to sit when someone yelled from behind us "Fuck you murderer". Henry looked up, smiled at know one in particular and held up his middle finger, then sat down.

" Mr. Kissinger, Have You No Shame?"

Nope, no fucking shame at all.

3 researchok  Tue, Dec 28, 2010 4:20:40pm

I read the article a couple of hours ago.

I do believe Hitchens makes some legitimate points. On the other hand, I don't believe Kissinger's legacy can be easily reduced to a page and a half. Also, his 'armchair analysis' of Kissinger is not necessarily the final word.

For example, Hitchen's antithesis to religion has often been been claimed to have originated with the death of his mother. While there may be some truth to the event as being influential, it would be wrong to claim that is the singular- and one dimensional- explanation for his positions.

Kissinger lived in another time and another place with very different political realities and very different political pressures. To reduce his all his actions to a one size fits all world view is a mistake, in my opinion.

4 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 28, 2010 7:29:04pm

re: #3 researchok

How on earth did that article reduce anything to a one-size-fits-all worldview?

5 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 12:07:38am

re: #4 Obdicut

How on earth did that article reduce anything to a one-size-fits-all worldview?

You're right, of course.

As usual.

None of Kissinger's actions can be defended- he was all in all pure evil. He did help to open up China, hailed at the time as a great coup for the US.

Pity the bastard helped end the war in Vietnam.

6 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 12:11:27am

re: #4 Obdicut

How on earth did that article reduce anything to a one-size-fits-all worldview?

Further, 'this disgusting individual' had the temerity to resupply Israel during the Six Day War.

Yeah, Kissinger remains a real comic book bad guy character.

7 Bob Levin  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 12:37:07am

re: #6 researchok


So you meant 'black and white' or 'two-dimensional' instead of 'one-size-fits-all'? Never was a problem in meaning.

Hitchens is just a wealth of information--but he does smush that information into some pretty narrow paradigms.

Kissinger is part of a larger picture within the State Department, and it didn't begin with Henry Kissinger. It's the conflict between the US playing either a moral or a Machiavellian role in world politics, supporting unstable democracies or stable dictators. I would argue that our history of stable/Machiavellian choices has not been in our best interests. The US is at its best when taking a moral position, and this usually entails supporting democracies. This latter position is how the US emerged from WWII, and it allowed us to garner great diplomatic clout since.

The former position squandered a significant amount of this diplomatic clout and created a generation of narrow-minded radicals in the US. (This is opposed to open-minded radicals who provided some excellent scholarship and insight during this same time.)

8 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 1:53:41am

re: #7 Bob Levin

So you meant 'black and white' or 'two-dimensional' instead of 'one-size-fits-all'? Never was a problem in meaning.

Hitchens is just a wealth of information--but he does smush that information into some pretty narrow paradigms.

Kissinger is part of a larger picture within the State Department, and it didn't begin with Henry Kissinger. It's the conflict between the US playing either a moral or a Machiavellian role in world politics, supporting unstable democracies or stable dictators. I would argue that our history of stable/Machiavellian choices has not been in our best interests. The US is at its best when taking a moral position, and this usually entails supporting democracies. This latter position is how the US emerged from WWII, and it allowed us to garner great diplomatic clout since.

The former position squandered a significant amount of this diplomatic clout and created a generation of narrow-minded radicals in the US. (This is opposed to open-minded radicals who provided some excellent scholarship and insight during this same time.)

Yes, I meant one size fits all (as in Hitchens descriptor of an always evil Kissinger) as well as the caricature of a one or two dimensional individual.

Now, as to moral/Machiavellian role- isn't that the position of all democratic foreign policies? We strive to be moral, yet we have to protect out own citizens and interests first. And, we want to quietly support those who would fight tyranny.

Further, the argument Hitchens makes is somewhat simplistic.

Were communist tyrannies more 'enlightened' than right wing tyrannies? Were there less deaths under Communist regimes than there were under right wing regimes?

Why is Kissinger excoriated for opening up relations with China when other administrations expanded those relations a hundred fold?

I'm a big Hitchens fan but I do believe on this he's missed the mark.

9 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 9:14:49am

re: #5 researchok

You're right, of course.

As usual.

None of Kissinger's actions can be defended- he was all in all pure evil. He did help to open up China, hailed at the time as a great coup for the US.

Pity the bastard helped end the war in Vietnam.

If you're just going to beat up strawmen while accusing Hitchens of beating up strawmen, there's little point in talking to you.

10 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 9:18:41am

re: #8 researchok

Is pretty much everyone unaware that Machiavelli was a huge pro-Democracy dude who wrote The Prince as, basically, satire? If you read all of his other political writings, they're in absolute and diametric opposition to The Prince.

11 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 10:42:13am

re: #9 Obdicut

If you're just going to beat up strawmen while accusing Hitchens of beating up strawmen, there's little point in talking to you.

Yes, you are right, of course.
/

The fact is when it comes to Kissinger there has always been a 'one size fits all' mentality. He was evil, whatever he did was evil and defending him was always evil.

Now, as to your Machiavelli remarks, please explain.

Were my remarks in err?

12 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 10:44:26am

re: #11 researchok

The fact is when it comes to Kissinger there has always been a 'one size fits all' mentality. He was evil, whatever he did was evil and defending him was always evil.

That is a strawman.

Kissinger has done a hell of a lot of evil shit in his life. A hell of a lot. That doesn't mean whatever he did was evil.


Now, as to your Machiavelli remarks, please explain.

I just hate the usage of the word 'Machiavellian' in that sense. Not your fault. But it's a vast misuse of a great man's works, a man who inspired most of our founding fathers to seek the idea of a just Republic.

13 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 1:03:26pm

re: #12 Obdicut

That is a strawman.

Kissinger has done a hell of a lot of evil shit in his life. A hell of a lot. That doesn't mean whatever he did was evil.

I just hate the usage of the word 'Machiavellian' in that sense. Not your fault. But it's a vast misuse of a great man's works, a man who inspired most of our founding fathers to seek the idea of a just Republic.

Now, it is not a straw man argument.

It is is the entire premise of Hitchens article. Read the beginning of the posted excerpt.

As for Machiavelli, you are right to note he has been misunderstood.

A lot of that has to do with deliberate obfuscation of his work.

Selective editing mostly, by people with varying agendas.

14 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 1:16:57pm

re: #13 researchok

It is is the entire premise of Hitchens article. Read the beginning of the posted excerpt.

I did. It's a straw man argument. And dealing with the very real evils done by Kissinger is very, very important.

If you seen an inaccuracy in Hitchen's criticism, point it out.

15 Michael Orion Powell  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:07:20pm

Truthdig had an article up on their Twitter feed quoting from Hitchens and ThinkProgress. Needless to say, it's good to see Hitchens and the Left back in synergy.

16 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 8:35:10pm

re: #15 OrionXP

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he should be sent to Chile, which wants to speak to him so much.


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