We Will Set Sail for Gaza Again

World News • July 2011 • Views: 1,397

Israel’s claim - that its blockade is for security only - is utterly belied by the fact that it blocks building materials (much needed, since thousands of homes and hundreds of schools were destroyed during the Operation Cast Lead bombardment two years ago) and refuses to allow students to study abroad or people to visit families, seek medical services or export their goods outside of the zone. Plainly, this is not about security. It is the collective punishment of 1.6 million Gazans because some voted for Hamas.

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30 comments

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 1:28:12pm

The Truth-out article is BS.'

What the Gaza Strip Really Needs

An aid flotilla laden with supplies has been trying to reach the Gaza Strip for weeks. But residents can only laugh at some of the ships' contents. They have enough cement. What they need is the chance to make a living, they say.

And the ability to make a living will come when violence and terror fron Gaza end.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jul 10, 2011 1:34:21pm

re: #1 researchok

Not touching the flotilla issue, but I couldn't disagree more with "the ability to make a living will come when violence and terror fron Gaza end". The terror and violence will continue at least as long as there is an inability to make a living. It's true for any territory at any time. It doesn't mean terror and violence will stop once people will be able to make a living, it's not a straightforward correlation, as ideology will come into play (still, one would expect the terror and violence to at least abate). But one simply can't expect a people who can't make a living to behave properly, quite the opposite.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jul 10, 2011 1:40:36pm

re: #2 Sergey Romanov

(Note, this is not a criticism of a blockade as a principle.)

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 1:41:21pm

re: #2 Sergey Romanov

Not touching the flotilla issue, but I couldn't disagree more with "the ability to make a living will come when violence and terror fron Gaza end". The terror and violence will continue at least as long as there is an inability to make a living. It's true for any territory at any time. It doesn't mean terror and violence will stop once people will be able to make a living, it's not a straightforward correlation, as ideology will come into play (still, one would expect the terror and violence to at least abate). But one simply can't expect a people who can't make a living to behave properly, quite the opposite.

I have to disagree, for the most part because it highlights a very relevant behavioral question: Does behavior drive ideology or does ideology drive behavior?

As long as the ideology embraces violence and terror, that ideology will continue to drive the behavior.

On the other hand, if the Hamas ideology were to reject violence, terror and calls to genocide the behavior would eventually stop.

It is true there will always be some violence but that kind of violence would no longer be mainstream.

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 1:44:51pm

More on the 'humanitarian crisis' in Gaza, from Pakistani newspaper

What the Gaza Strip really needs

Hamas is predicated on racist, bigoted and hate filled ideologies. They did nothing to hide their beliefs prior to the election. In fact, the majority of Gazans voted for them, not as the article notes, 'some'.

There is no inherent difference between Hamas and any other racist organization. They just get to hide behind a different narrative.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jul 10, 2011 1:51:05pm

re: #4 researchok

They drive each other. E.g. a violent ideology may spring up because of some objective reasons (whether it be general poverty or something else). Even if the initial reasons dissipate, the ideology, that mental virus, may stay for a long time. Such is the nature of ideologies. So if the ideology lives on regardless of initial reasons, the external forces may cause the initial reasons to return or to worsen. This, in turn, will radicalize ideology even more. It's just an observation, there's no easy solution in such a vicious circle, I just disagree with "when..., then..." - there will be no "when" while the population can't make a living. Bad conditions cause bad ideology, which in turn causes more bad conditions.

ProMayaLiberal Sun, Jul 10, 2011 1:56:18pm

re: #6 Sergey Romanov

What is your opinion on the issue of the olive trees being cut down, and similar actions in the West Bank, where Palestinians are cooperating?

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jul 10, 2011 2:00:05pm

re: #7 ProLifeLiberal

Again, this was a general comment on a general principle. I'm not gonna engage in a futile I-P dispute (for some reason they tend to turn ugly at this blog). Obviously, I am both aware and disapprove of any extremism, be it Palestinian or Israeli settler one.

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 2:00:42pm

re: #6 Sergey Romanov

They drive each other. E.g. a violent ideology may spring up because of some objective reasons (whether it be general poverty or something else). Even if the initial reasons dissipate, the ideology, that mental virus, may stay for a long time. Such is the nature of ideologies. So if the ideology lives on regardless of initial reasons, the external forces may cause the initial reasons to return or to worsen. This, in turn, will radicalize ideology even more. It's just an observation, there's no easy solution in such a vicious circle, I just disagree with "when..., then..." - there will be no "when" while the population can't make a living. Bad conditions cause bad ideology, which in turn causes more bad conditions.

Actually, that is not the case. While it may appear to be so, nothing could be further from the truth.

The Nazis cultivated an ideology before that ideology drove behavior. Conversely, MLK's ideology of non violence set the stage for non violent protests as defining his cause.

Are there outliers? Of course there were. Nevertheless in virtually every instance of change, in virtually every case, ideology that drives behavior.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jul 10, 2011 2:03:43pm

re: #9 researchok

As you can see from my comments, I agree that ideology will drive behavior. It just seems obvious to me that environment will certainly drive behavior too. I've seen no evidence to the contrary.

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 2:05:57pm

re: #7 ProLifeLiberal

What is your opinion on the issue of the olive trees being cut down, and similar actions in the West Bank, where Palestinians are cooperating?

That is wrong, IMO, unless those groves were being used to camouflage rocket launchers.

It is interesting to note the differences over the last few years between Gaza and the West Bank.

The PA in the West Bank, under Abbas has acknowledged Israel and has engaged in talks. The West Bank is booming and is now relatively violence free, with virtually no Israeli interventions.

Gaza, under Hamas is an entirely different story. When kindergartners favorite ditty isw 'HAMAS! HAMAS! JEWS TO THE GAS!' it isn't hard to understand what happens when those kids become teenagers.

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 2:07:31pm

re: #10 Sergey Romanov

As you can see from my comments, I agree that ideology will drive behavior. It just seems obvious to me that environment will certainly drive behavior too. I've seen no evidence to the contrary.

Environment drives behavior to some extent, but nowhere near to the extent ideology does.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jul 10, 2011 2:08:53pm

re: #12 researchok

Radical ideology is all but guaranteed to spring up when people think they are in a bind. This ideology then will drive behavior.

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 2:10:54pm

re: #13 Sergey Romanov

Radical ideology is all but guaranteed to spring up when people think they are in a bind. This ideology then will drive behavior.

Not just radical ideology- political and religious ideologies as well.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jul 10, 2011 2:11:39pm

re: #13 Sergey Romanov

Radical ideology is all but guaranteed to spring up when people think they are in a bind. This ideology then will drive behavior.

Think "Versailles", which helps to explain exactly why the Nazis were able to win over so many Germans. (Which doesn't exclude other causes, like pre-existing popular antisemitism.)

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 2:12:39pm

re: #14 researchok

Further, not all 'binds' produce violent behavior.

Tibet is the classic example.

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 2:17:09pm

re: #15 Sergey Romanov

Think "Versailles", which helps to explain exactly why the Nazis were able to win over so many Germans. (Which doesn't exclude other causes, like pre-existing popular antisemitism.)

There is a difference.

Some societies rebel to throw off the yoke of real and violent oppression. Other societies express their commitment to racism, bigotry and hate and want to act on that. Far too many Palestinians make no secret of that.

In the case of Germany, Hitler cultivated a sense of oppression, victimization, scapegoating, etc.- all a part of the ideology.

ProMayaLiberal Sun, Jul 10, 2011 2:36:56pm

re: #16 researchok

Tibet will eventually snap. Same with the Uighurs. And considering the brutality and viciousness of the treatment these 2 groups got from the Chinese, I don't know if I will condemn any actions they do.

windsagio Sun, Jul 10, 2011 2:50:13pm

Skipping all the previous discussion, they'll keep trying to do these blockade flotillas (and variants) because its actually a pretty effective way to put pressure on the Israeli government.

Even if they get blocked in European ports or get boats sabotaged (didn't I read about that happening? If not sorry :p) its still works very very well as a way to draw attention where they want it.

And this is leaving right/wrong out of it too, just about what seems to work.

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 3:31:55pm

re: #18 ProLifeLiberal

Tibet will eventually snap. Same with the Uighurs. And considering the brutality and viciousness of the treatment these 2 groups got from the Chinese, I don't know if I will condemn any actions they do.

You're probably right. The Chinese are particularly brutal. They have no issue repressing their own. To expect them to treat the Tibetans and Uighurs is wishful thinking indeed.

And all this only serves to point out the Israeli 'occupation' has been the most benign military occupation in history.

windsagio Sun, Jul 10, 2011 3:32:42pm

re: #20 researchok

well not as benign as the occupations of Japan and W.Germany :p

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 3:51:25pm

re: #21 windsagio

well not as benign as the occupations of Japan and W.Germany :p

Neither the Germans or Japanese waged a significant terror war on the occupiers and on the occupiers homeland.

windsagio Sun, Jul 10, 2011 3:58:32pm

re: #22 researchok

Ask the French and British about that.

windsagio Sun, Jul 10, 2011 4:00:07pm

re: #22 researchok

Altho' I guess there's a better parallel between the PT and Tibet than there is between the PT and Japan, I'd be reluctant to make that comparison tho'

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 4:00:07pm

re: #23 windsagio

Ask the French and British about that.

Are you saying the Germans were more benign??

windsagio Sun, Jul 10, 2011 4:01:44pm

re: #25 researchok

wait what?

No, I'm saying the Germans engaged a war of terror vs the British and Occupied and Terrorized the French :p

like I said in 24 tho', you're right in the sense that the occupation lacks parallels in other ways, the post WW2 occupation was never meant ot be permanent, and the Allies never explicitly claimed right to the occupied territories.

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 4:08:28pm

re: #26 windsagio

wait what?

No, I'm saying the Germans engaged a war of terror vs the British and Occupied and Terrorized the French :p

like I said in 24 tho', you're right in the sense that the occupation lacks parallels in other ways, the post WW2 occupation was never meant ot be permanent, and the Allies never explicitly claimed right to the occupied territories.

Ah...I misunderstood- apologies.

You are right, of course. The Germans did terrorize Britain and occupied France. The Israelis have been very different in that regard.

The funny thing is, there is fair and legitimate criticism of Israel. Unfortunately, it is rarely raised. Instead what we get is this simplistic narrative that just doesn't hold water.

Israel has what to answer for. No nation is perfect. Unfortunately, that fair criticism would have to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, a nonmstarter for much of the Arab world.

windsagio Sun, Jul 10, 2011 4:11:08pm

re: #27 researchok

Extremism begets extremism.

I can't say I'd be entirely blameless if I had to deal with that kind of thing too (well presuming I was magically transformed into a whole country :p)

researchok Sun, Jul 10, 2011 4:42:30pm

I hear that.

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jul 10, 2011 9:09:16pm

re: #19 windsagio

Skipping all the previous discussion, they'll keep trying to do these blockade flotillas (and variants) because its actually a pretty effective way to put pressure on the Israeli government.

Even if they get blocked in European ports or get boats sabotaged (didn't I read about that happening? If not sorry :p) its still works very very well as a way to draw attention where they want it.

And this is leaving right/wrong out of it too, just about what seems to work.

And the Israelis will endure the pressure and press on. They know that to give in means terror and death, so they will be strong. Those in the US who know the truth must make sure to tell it, so that these "activists" may be seen for the shills for totalitarianism they really are.

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