Pages

Jump to bottom

10 comments

1 shutdown  Tue, Aug 23, 2011 2:00:03pm

As is the case with any large bureaucracy, UNWRA exists primarily to perpetuate itself. Just because Kafka is dead, does not mean he was wrong...

2 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 23, 2011 2:02:26pm

re: #1 imp_62

As is the case with any large bureaucracy, UNWRA exists primarily to perpetuate itself. Just because Kafka is dead, does not mean he was wrong...

Imp, you hit the nail right ont he head. That is why, 100 years from now, there will still be Palestinian "refugees" who need tending.

3 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 23, 2011 2:06:32pm

re: #1 imp_62

The most complex issue is that a lot of money acquired for terror ends up going to Israel in the form on consumer transactions. Israel is not interested in destroying the Gazan economy, and by the same token, how much do people really want to destroy the place that is providing them with food and income?

So, Israel keeps track of the leaders of the terrorists, and hits them first when ever they attack Israel. I don't know that there is much more to do. The economy has to grow, and with it, interdependence.

4 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 23, 2011 2:07:21pm

whenever

5 shutdown  Tue, Aug 23, 2011 2:14:37pm

re: #3 Bob Levin

There are untold layers of complexity which go unreported by the standard media outlets, as the assumption is that the "consumer" of news is interested in blood and guts, a morality play with a villain and a hero, and generally is equipped with a very short attention span. The conditions Israel must create, or allow to develop, in Gaza and the WB are those that enable capital and investment to be attracted by non-terror projects. That's why hotels and malls are good, and the IDF will do whatever they can to avoid damaging non-terror infrastructure. It is never about "collective punishment", as much as that is a leftist trope, because collectively, Gazans import escalators and chickens. Individually, Hamas terrorists are part of the old "bad" capital structure which lives off terror investments. It's that simple, and that boring. Israel does not actually care if Hamas runs Gaza, as long as Gaza is being geared towards attracting non-terror investment. The House of Saud, the Turks, the Egyptians - all anti-Semitic regimes. But Israel doesn't care, because of the above.

6 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 23, 2011 2:21:18pm

re: #5 imp_62

That's true, absolutely true. And it is an area of very raw capitalism, for thousands of years it's been an area of raw capitalism, without the aid of the technology that can only come from the presence of water and minerals.

7 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 23, 2011 2:57:14pm

re: #5 imp_62

There are untold layers of complexity which go unreported by the standard media outlets, as the assumption is that the "consumer" of news is interested in blood and guts, a morality play with a villain and a hero, and generally is equipped with a very short attention span. The conditions Israel must create, or allow to develop, in Gaza and the WB are those that enable capital and investment to be attracted by non-terror projects. That's why hotels and malls are good, and the IDF will do whatever they can to avoid damaging non-terror infrastructure. It is never about "collective punishment", as much as that is a leftist trope, because collectively, Gazans import escalators and chickens. Individually, Hamas terrorists are part of the old "bad" capital structure which lives off terror investments. It's that simple, and that boring. Israel does not actually care if Hamas runs Gaza, as long as Gaza is being geared towards attracting non-terror investment. The House of Saud, the Turks, the Egyptians - all anti-Semitic regimes. But Israel doesn't care, because of the above.

The highlighted language is where the problem exists. If only Hamas was interested in running Gaza in order to build a local economy and society, Israel would not only "not care", it would happily assist. Unfortunately, to Hamas, there is no such thing as non-terror investment. To Hamas, all investments, including general business investments, are merely a means to raising the funds and creating the resources needed in pursuit of its neo-genocidal aim of destroying the Jewish state and killing as many Jews as it can in the process.

8 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 23, 2011 7:57:50pm

re: #7 sliv_the_eli

We know who Hamas is and what they want. But, there is the billionaire from the West Bank who just built the shopping mall in the middle of the room. There is a rising middle class among the populace.

And that means that Hamas is backed into a corner. They can only recruit from poor, abusive families. Those kids are the ones who will launch rockets, build bombs, basically become the terrorist ground troops. The more prosperous Gaza becomes, the more the evaporation of the terrorist pool.

So, let's recap the last few days. Iran gives Hamas the order to begin an attack in order to prop up Assad and Hezbollah. The attack is started. About the time Israel begins to retaliate, Hamas gets a call from the billionaire, they get calls from the growing number of people, high up in Hamas, who now have something to lose. The attacks stop like they usually stop. Hamas declares a cease fire, another handful of rockets are launched to make it seem like Israel didn't scare them, and there is relative quiet. And Iran is so pissed that they cut off funding for Hamas. Meaning that Hamas has to call the billionaire and ask for a loan to pay the salaries.

Hamas is in a tenuous position, and the question is, what is the most effective way to get rid of Hamas? I think the recent events of the Arab world give us the answer. They will fall through the weight of their own recalcitrance. And before they fall they will kill thousands of their own citizens.

9 sliv_the_eli  Tue, Aug 23, 2011 9:02:33pm

re: #8 Bob Levin

I am not so sanguine in my view of the subject. The notion that only the poor and downtrodden produce Hamas-supporting fanatics and terrorists is a uniquely Western, and largely inaccurate, viewpoint. The reality is that a significant number of Islamists, their footsoldiers and their supporters are from solidly mddle and upper middle class famillies, and include among their ranks numerous doctors, lawyers and engineers. For those who believe in the Islamist worldview that is represented by Hamas, material wealth is not the end-all and be-all of existence.
Additionally, I do not agree that Hamas is in a tenuous position. To their southwest, Egypt is on the verge of having a government that is dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood, who are Hamas' true patrons. Hamas may not need Iranian financial support, because they will be in a position to receive succor from their Islamist mentors in Egypt.

10 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 24, 2011 3:43:55am

re: #9 sliv_the_eli

I like to think of myself as realistic, not sanguine. I didn't say that only the poor produce Hamas fanatics. I said that those recruited to do the dirty work are poor and abused. Bin Laden wasn't about to strap on an explosive vest. He was more than happy to order others to commit murder and suicide for his cause.

Oddly, Israel targets those doctors, lawyers, and engineers--those who plan the attacks. Because, oddly, they don't want to be on the front lines. Israel's idea to move the back lines to the front lines has been effective.

For those who believe in the Islamist worldview that is represented by Hamas, material wealth is not the end-all and be-all of existence.

I wouldn't give them credit for being ideologically purer than the rest of us. It looks like good old fashioned anomie to me, always has.

Additionally, I do not agree that Hamas is in a tenuous position. To their southwest, Egypt is on the verge of having a government that is dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood, who are Hamas' true patrons. Hamas may not need Iranian financial support, because they will be in a position to receive succor from their Islamist mentors in Egypt.

I agree with the principle of following the money. I do not think the trail leads where you think it does. Let's watch for this. I think Hamas gets its main money from Iran. Egypt is still in disarray, big time disarray, so much so that the military--which will eventually stabilize the situation, is spinning dishes. Many pundits have been chomping at the bit trying to guess where Egypt is going. I still think it's too soon to tell.

Even if we disagree about everything above, we still agree on the fundamental question--what is the best way to rid Gaza of Hamas, what is the best way to rid the West Bank of Fatah? That's where the discussion needs to go.

Luckily, the Torah has quite a bit on military strategy, but you have to mine for it. Sun Tzu also has a good, more accessible summary of the same principles, but without as much detail or scope.


This page has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
6 days ago
Views: 167 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 330 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1