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22 comments

1 Bulworth  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 12:15:15pm

Persecution! War on Religion! /

2 Destro  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 12:30:44pm

The reason the Christian right is doing this lately is they had no defense against the claim the founding fathers were for separation of church and state. If you follow the debates on right wing forms amongst conservatives from the religious base vs libertarians who tend to be more secular you would see the libertarian side bring up the separation of church and state in context of Jefferson's letter where he used that phrase to explain his position.

There has been a an effort by the religious right of late to either make up (lie) new facts or distort facts / taking word snippets out of context etc so that there can be a source religious right wing people can reference to when they are making their arguments. This is sort of the thing the Bush admin did with Judith Miller. Give her made up facts (lies) about Iraq's WMD, have Judith Miller write that up in the NYT and then have the Bush spokesmen then cite Judith Miller as an independent source to back up what they were saying. This is what is happening here only with theology and history.

3 Kragar  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 12:37:19pm

Ten Demonstrably False Claims Made by David Barton

Keep in mind, there are not simply crazy things that he has said - like life begins before conception or that Jesus opposed the Minimum Wage or that the government should regulate gay sex - but rather verifiably false claims that can be easily refuted with a basic Google search.

The Southern Poverty Law Center called him a "domestic terrorist." Nope.

There are no grocery stores within the city of Detroit. Wrong.

An elementary school student was yelled at for praying before lunch. Didn't happen.

Mentions of Jesus were banned at military funerals. Not quite.

Hate Crimes legislation was designed to imprison pastors. Please.

Abstinence will make you richer. Guess again.

God created our system of elected government. Nice try.

The Constitution quotes the Bible "verbatim." Huh?

Again claiming the Constitution quotes the Bible "verbatim." Still not true.

Many of the clauses in the Constitution are "direct quotations out of the Bible." Are you seeing a pattern here?

Those are just ten examples we pulled together from recent months, though there are several others we could have also included.

4 Bulworth  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 12:41:21pm

re: #3 Kragar

Ten Demonstrably False Claims Made by David Barton

He said these things in the Jefferson book?

5 Kragar  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 12:42:28pm

re: #4 Bulworth

He said these things in the Jefferson book?

No, those were just other highlights from his career as a fake historian,

6 Kragar  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 12:47:59pm

Here is more on the Jefferson book itself. One of Barton's usual tactics is to say anyone who disagrees with his work are attacking him because he is a Christian. This has caused a growing number of real historians, including Evangelical Christians, to call him out on his lies.

Christian critics challenge WallBuilders president on America’s founders

David Barton, president of the WallBuilders organization and a frequent guest on Glenn Beck’s broadcasts, is one of America’s most popular Christian history writers. Liberal critics have long accused Barton of misinterpretations and errors, and readers of the History News Network recently voted a new Barton book, The Jefferson Lies, as the “Least Credible History Book in Print.” But now some conservative Christian scholars are publicly questioning Barton’s work, too.

Jay W. Richards, senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, and author with James Robison of Indivisible: Restoring Faith, Family, and Freedom Before It’s Too Late, spoke alongside Barton at Christian conferences as recently as last month. Richards says in recent months he has grown increasingly troubled about Barton’s writings, so he asked 10 conservative Christian professors to assess Barton’s work.

Their response was negative. Some examples: Glenn Moots of Northwood University wrote that Barton in The Jefferson Lies is so eager to portray Jefferson as sympathetic to Christianity that he misses or omits obvious signs that Jefferson stood outside “orthodox, creedal, confessional Christianity.” A second professor, Glenn Sunshine of Central Connecticut State University, said that Barton’s characterization of Jefferson’s religious views is “unsupportable.” A third, Gregg Frazer of The Master’s College, evaluated Barton’s video America’s Godly Heritage and found many of its factual claims dubious, such as a statement that “52 of the 55 delegates at the Constitutional Convention were ‘orthodox, evangelical Christians.’” Barton told me he found that number in M.E. Bradford’s A Worthy Company.

Barton has received support from Mike Huckabee, Newt Gingrich, Michele Bachmann, and other political leaders. He questions how many of his new critics have actually read his work, especially The Jefferson Lies. Barton concedes that Jefferson doubted some traditional Christian doctrines, but argues that these doubts did not emerge until the last couple of decades of his life. He says that all of his books, including his latest, are fully documented with footnotes, and that critics who look at the original sources he is using often change their minds.

A full-scale, newly published critique of Barton is coming from Professors Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter of Grove City College, a largely conservative Christian school in Pennsylvania. Their book Getting Jefferson Right: Fact Checking Claims about Our Third President (Salem Grove Press), argues that Barton “is guilty of taking statements and actions out of context and simplifying historical circumstances.” For example, they charge that Barton, in explaining why Jefferson did not free his slaves, “seriously misrepresents or misunderstands (or both) the legal environment related to slavery.”

7 Destro  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 12:54:29pm

re: #3 Kragar

The Constitution quotes the Bible "verbatim." Huh?

Again claiming the Constitution quotes the Bible "verbatim." Still not true.

Before this joker Barton showed up the best that the religious right could do in linking the constitution to the bible or religion is that the constitution acknowledges Sunday as a day off. It has been a while since I was involved in the right wing religious circles but that was always trotted out. It was a leap but now they just make shit up rather than make wild leaps.

8 Destro  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 12:57:32pm

re: #6 Kragar

Barton concedes that Jefferson doubted some traditional Christian doctrines, but argues that these doubts did not emerge until the last couple of decades of his life.

Yea, let's only accept Jefferson's earlier views and not his later more mature ones?

So that is like someone only accepting my views from my younger years based on my letters to Santa Claus and ignoring the mature years of my life where I earned college degrees.

9 Kragar  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 1:00:01pm

re: #8 Destro

Yea, let's only accept Jefferson's earlier views and not his later more mature ones?

So that is like someone only accepting my views from my younger years based on my letters to Santa Claus and ignoring the mature years of my life where I earned college degrees.

How important are the last few DECADES in a person life really?

10 Destro  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 1:06:11pm

re: #9 Kragar

How important are the last few DECADES in a person life really?

That's how the right wing kooks twist reality - that is how they get good at changing the way the political argument is framed.

They maybe failing here because academia - unlike say talk radio and news and CNN operate - actually has rules about what is said as facts or not. Academia will challenge Barton but who challenges Barton on Sean Hannity's show?

11 Destro  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 1:07:27pm

re: #9 Kragar

How important are the last few DECADES in a person life really?

PS: Jefferson's early views were not that much different from his 'last couple of decades' of life. Jefferson in maturity was able to just flesh out his beliefs more as he gained insight.

12 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 1:40:18pm
The Thomas Nelson publishing company has decided to cease publication and distribution of David Barton’s controversial book, The Jefferson Lies: Exposing the Myths You’ve Always Believed about Thomas Jefferson, saying it has ‘lost confidence in the book’s details.’

Wingnuts doing the 1st amendment shuffle in 3...2...1...

13 dragonath  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 1:46:28pm

Dpn't worry folks, Regnery Publishing will pick this right up!

14 nines09  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 2:43:59pm

Freedom means you can lie and change historical facts and rewrite biblical statements to save us all from....just a minute.....(voice in background) "Who is it this week?"....

15 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 3:17:17pm

re: #14 nines09

Freedom means you can lie and change historical facts and rewrite biblical statements to save us all from....just a minute.....(voice in background) "Who is it this week?"....

Sure, but you may have to go through a wingnut publisher. Or put it out yourself. Self-publishing is easy these days.

I'm deeply curious though. What DID Barton want us all to know about Thomas Jefferson? That he was a devout and orthodox Christian?

16 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 3:46:52pm

re: #15 SanFranciscoZionist

That and that Jefferson never had sex with slaves.

17 Kragar  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 4:02:13pm

posted to the wrong thread, nothing to see here.

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 4:10:33pm

re: #16 wheatdogg

That and that Jefferson never had sex with slaves.

Sure. Those genes just sort of got picked up by osmosis.

(Or is he one of those people who think "His NEPHEWS were sleeping with his slaves!" somehow makes Jefferson look better?)

19 John Vreeland  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 4:34:52pm

Cincinatti-area pastors deny David Barton his right to free speech. Thomas Nelson Publishing caves in to oppressive demand for fact-based history.

20 Destro  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 6:26:04pm

re: #15 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure, but you may have to go through a wingnut publisher. Or put it out yourself. Self-publishing is easy these days.

I'm deeply curious though. What DID Barton want us all to know about Thomas Jefferson? That he was a devout and orthodox Christian?

I used to be involved with right wing religionists of the Dominionist strain so you have to understand them and what their agenda is and why framing Jefferson is important to them.

A) They want to eliminate the "seperation of church and state" thesis.

B) They want and need to show the founding fathers like Jefferson accepted some sort of theology in public policy even if not orthodox so that can allow Dominionists to also do the same.

21 Destro  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 6:35:23pm

re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure. Those genes just sort of got picked up by osmosis.

(Or is he one of those people who think "His NEPHEWS were sleeping with his slaves!" somehow makes Jefferson look better?)

They right wing that is upset by this places blame on Jefferson's genes on Jefferson's relatives.

The Jefferson family descendants (the majority anyway) still refuse to acknowledge the descendants of Sally Hemings as party of the family. That is more of a class thing than a racist thing with those blue bloods.

The far right wing that blames a randy Jefferson relative for the Sally Hemings line being a descendant of Jefferson does so to avoid the charge that Jefferson 'raped' his slaves that many on the left throw out to knock down the Founding Fathers from their saint status.

In defense of Thomas Jefferson sleeping with Sally Hemings, Hemings was in all probability the half sister of his dead wife whom Jefferson deeply loved. So here was a young woman who looked like his ex wife and lived in his house and they were in Paris. Nature takes over.

22 Ben G. Hazi  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 7:40:56pm

re: #19 John Vreeland

Cincinatti-area pastors deny David Barton his right to free speech. Thomas Nelson Publishing caves in to oppressive demand for fact-based history.

Living here in Nashville, Thomas Nelson is the big dog of Christian publishing here in the buckle of the Bible Belt and worldwide (with the UMPH/Cokesbury and Lifeway right behind), but they don't just do Bibles and liturgical stuff. Among other pursuits, Nelson was partners with Joseph Farah in WND's first go-around with a book label and the company was recently purchased by HarperCollins, itself owned by News Corp.

Funny how the world turns...


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