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1 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 9:09:22pm

In the case of Russia, this is far more a terminal condition than the US.

The US is, simply put, not a nation in the traditional sense, because of the Immigration factor, it changes, regenerates, and is in constant flux.

Russia’s combination of expansion while doing Ethnic Cleansing (see the Adyghe people), and subsequently marginalizing them into dead end positions in terms of advancement, and just the nastiness of the racism and prejudice against these minorities means that Russia will likely lose most of the Caucasus by the end of the Century.

And as an end-note, the Eastern Orthodox Church is like going to have the same issue. While the Catholic Church has issues out the yazoo with racism and corruption, they are nowhere near the levels of the Orthodox Church. Most blaring example being the Serbian Orthodox Churches support for the crimes in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo in the 90’s.

Shockingly, this led to a backlash. One I have taken to heart.

2 Destro  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 9:26:29pm

re: #1 ProBosniaLiberal

Your history is kind of bullshit. The Russians preserved more of the native people they encountered as they expanded more than the Americans did the Indian nations they encountered.

The USA expanded around the same time the Russian empire expanded - the USA wiped out the natives and the Russians for the most part left them alone, your example notwithstanding.

If the Russians were expanding into the American West, the native American nations would for the most part still be on their native lands. For example The Republic of Kalmykia is the only native Buddhist land in Europe because they were given autonomy under the Russian empire. The Americans massacred the Lakota people who practiced their Ghost Dance religion and forced Native people to go to missionary Christian schools.

3 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 9:32:49pm

re: #2 Destro

Really might want to tell the Adyghe that.

Or the Chechnyans, Dagestanis, we can keep going at this. If you accept the Orthodox Church you are okay. Otherwise, persecution is all you have to look forward to.

Again, proving my point about you being some Orthodox-Influenced Slavic Hyper-Nationalist.

And yes, we did fuck up with the Native Americans. We realize this, and I remember being taught it in schools. Russia cannot apologize for things that happened in real recent memory. Let’s add a few more to the list. Like the treatment of the Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians. Or the seizure the Russification of Poland.

I get the feeling you are whitewashing much of Russia’s history, but I will admit an unfamiliarity with the history of Siberia and the rest of the Russian East.

4 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 9:36:57pm

Or, I can point out that Zhirinovsky still get 12.5% of the vote in Russia.

Outright fascism doesn’t get 12.5% percent of the vote in the United States. I may despise the Republicans in their current form, but fascists they are not.

But I guess you are a big fan of that nut, from your opinions.

5 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 9:43:18pm

Of course, to you Destro, all Americans are evil, and any efforts to make things right are some sort of conspiracy.

Well, watch as the Russian Bigotry against the Muslims in the Caucasus region loses them all of it. Perhaps they will learn a lesson.

6 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 9:46:47pm

And on Kalmykia, your story is flat out bullshit. The settlers took much of the land, and the Russian Orthodox Church tried to force Orthodox Christianity on them.

Strange, how the Orthodox Church is smaller than either the Protestants or the Catholics.

7 Destro  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 9:47:41pm

re: #3 ProBosniaLiberal

The Buddhist Republic of Kalmykia is next door to Stavropol in the Caucuses. I don’t think it would have survived as a Buddhist nation if the Ottoman Empire ruled them.

Why the fuck do you keep defending ex-Nazi allies like the Croatians, Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians is fucking beyond me.

And it was the Russians who wanted to grant freedom to the Poles who were being ruled by the Germans.

The Poles and Baltic people were pagans who the Catholic pope declared a crusade against and created the Teutonic knights to do the job. The Poles converted to the Catholic faith to end those raids and live in peace.

The Poles were treated better under the Russians than they were under the Germans who ruled them and as a non-Slav I don’t get why the fixation is on how the Russians treated the Poles.

It was the Russians who fought for the establishment of some sort of Polish state after the Napoleonic wars. The The Kingdom of Poland largely re-emerged as a result of the efforts of Adam Jerzy Czartoryski, a Pole who aimed to resurrect the Polish state in alliance with Russia. The Kingdom of Poland was one of the few contemporary constitutional monarchies in Europe, with the Emperor of Russia serving as the Polish King. en.wikipedia.org

8 Destro  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 9:52:46pm

re: #6 ProBosniaLiberal

And on Kalmykia, your story is flat out bullshit. The settlers took much of the land, and the Russian Orthodox Church tried to force Orthodox Christianity on them.

Strange, how the Orthodox Church is smaller than either the Protestants or the Catholics.

The Kalmykia Buddhists are still there in their own autonomous republic in the Caucuses. That is more than can be said for the Lakota people or other nations the Protestant USA or the Catholic Spanish genocided.

I think there are about the same or more Orthodox than there are Protestants (if you count Copts and Ethiopians in the Orthodox pool) and if the Orthodox genocided the native peoples of the Americas we would have Orthodox populations roughly the same size as there are now Catholics and Protestants in America.

Also, the Muslims kind of genocided the native Orthodox populations in Asia Minor, the Middle East and North Africa.

This should piss you off because of your hatred of the Serb:

en.wikipedia.org

After the October Revolution in 1917, many Don Kalmyks joined the White Russian army and fought under the command of Generals Denikin and Wrangel during the Russian Civil War. Before the Red Army broke through to the Crimean Peninsula towards the end of 1920, a large group of Kalmyks fled from Russia with the remnants of defeated White Army to the Black Sea ports of Turkey.

The majority of the refugees chose to resettle in Belgrade, Serbia. Other, much smaller, groups chose Sofia (Bulgaria), Prague (Czechoslovakia) and Paris and Lyon (France). The Kalmyk refugees in Belgrade built a Buddhist temple there in 1929.

9 Destro  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 10:04:42pm

PS: The Cossacks are post Middle Ages, The formed around the 1500s and were not like middle ages Europe in that they were not serfs, etc.

So saying Cossacks are a throwback to the middle ages is kind of wrong. Yes, they are a throwback but not to the middle ages. The Cossacks have no analogy in the west and most closely resemble the Comanche system and their Comancheria in what is now Texas.

10 Destro  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 10:08:12pm

re: #3 ProBosniaLiberal

Again, proving my point about you being some Orthodox-Influenced Slavic Hyper-Nationalist.

I will repeat again. I am not Slav. I am not married to a Slav and I have no connection to Slavs in any way shape or form. I am not a Serbian nor do I believe in any god or practice any religion.

I don’t have a racist hatred of Slavs that many Western Europeans (like the German Nazis) and Americans have (thanks to the Cold War and right wing paranoia).

Regarding the Muslim people you mentioned from the Caucuses that were pushed out in the 19th century - it was not the norm for how the Russians treated native peoples they conquered and for the most part the native peoples of the Caucuses are still there on their ancestral lands unlike the native American populations the American conquered in the 19th century.

And this treatment of native conquered people is a good comparison between the Russian (Orthodox) and the American (mostly Protestant) nations because they happened at the same time in history.

11 SpaceJesus  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 11:08:46pm

Why don’t they bring back the Oprichniki while they’re at it

12 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 7:00:07am

re: #7 Destro

The Buddhist Republic of Kalmykia is next door to Stavropol in the Caucuses. I don’t think it would have survived as a Buddhist nation if the Ottoman Empire ruled them.

Why the fuck do you keep defending ex-Nazi allies like the Croatians, Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians is fucking beyond me.

And it was the Russians who wanted to grant freedom to the Poles who were being ruled by the Germans.

The Poles and Baltic people were pagans who the Catholic pope declared a crusade against and created the Teutonic knights to do the job. The Poles converted to the Catholic faith to end those raids and live in peace.

The Poles were treated better under the Russians than they were under the Germans who ruled them and as a non-Slav I don’t get why the fixation is on how the Russians treated the Poles.

1. PLL has dealt with Croatian actions in the 1990’s, not the 1940s. It is not appropriate to link the two without making case for the linkage.

2. To use the “Nazi ally” line without discussion or context is a Godwin’s Law violation.

3. And as for the Russians wanting “to grant freedom to the Poles”, that is absolute horseshit. Russia was brutal and despotic in its treatment of the Poles and Poland and constantly tried to impose its own values on that smaller nation. From 1939 onwards the Soviet Union did permit the celebration of some aspects of Polish culture among Poles in their employ and in areas of Poland they controlled, but they still forced their communism upon Poland and tried to do the same with their atheism.

13 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 7:07:53am

re: #8 Destro

The LAkota still have far more real rights and opportunities as America citizens than the Kalmykia people do in Russia.

You really need to hate on America a lot less and love it a little more.

14 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 8:10:53am

Oh, FFS. Here we go again.

Desrto & PBL: I’m sick of the ridiculous hyperbole & melodrama that occurs every time you two are in the same thread. If this is going to turn into yet another extended pissing match instead of discussion about the actual topic of the post, then I’m going to shut it down.

15 bratwurst  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 8:39:17am

re: #14 CuriousLurker

Oh, FFS. Here we go again.

Desrto & PBL: I’m sick of the ridiculous hyperbole & melodrama that occurs every time you two are in the same thread. If this is going to turn into yet another extended pissing match instead of discussion about the actual topic of the post, then I’m going to shut it down.

The only thing I would add to this excellent post is that BOTH of these page warriors have been acting like children.

16 Destro  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 8:41:08am

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

The LAkota still have far more real rights and opportunities as America citizens than the Kalmykia people do in Russia.

You really need to hate on America a lot less and love it a little more.

I am sure the Lakota feel freer than ever in their ghetto camps aka their reservations.

The Russians - as “evil” as they are preserved the native peoples that came into their empire more so than the Americans did in the 19th century which is when the American Indian and the Russian Caucuses and Siberian expansions happened. They are contemporary and happened at the same time in history.

As brutal as the Russians were they were better than the Germans who ruled a partitioned Poland and it was Czarist Russians who wanted to restore Poland to nationhood after the Napoleonic wars. And as bad as the USSR was, Poles were worse off under the Germans.

Regarding the Baltics, what happened to them after WW2 was more than well deserved. Their alliance with the Nazis showed they did not deserve nationhood. I can’t feel sympathy for 3 nations full of enthusiastic Nazi collaborates.

17 Destro  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 8:43:16am

re: #15 bratwurst

I won’t let racist/bigoted comments go unchallenged to serve someone’s bullshit anti Orthodox Christian religious agenda (when his religion is just as guilty as are all religions).

18 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 8:48:32am

re: #16 Destro

Regarding the Baltics, what happened to them after WW2 was more than well deserved. Their alliance with the Nazis showed they did not deserve nationhood. I can’t feel sympathy for 3 nations full of enthusiastic Nazi collaborates.

So the fact that Russia took them over in 1939 creates no sympathy from you, huh? Or that the NKVD ground those nations down in 1939-1941, seizing property, disbanding civic organizations, and sending anyone they didn’t like to the gulag?

With those facts in mind, its easy to see why parts of the populations of the Baltic States sided with Germany. They hoped to gain a better position as German collaborators than as conquered Russian serfs. In all three nations, who collaborated and why is a complex issue, one best not reduced to one-sentence vitriol.

19 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 8:56:26am

re: #17 Destro

I won’t let racist/bigoted comments go unchallenged to serve someone’s bullshit anti Orthodox Christian religious agenda (when his religion is just as guilty as are all religions).

LOL, says the guy who incessantly spouts anti-American bigotry. What a freaking clown.

20 Destro  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:16:25am

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

So the fact that Russia took them over in 1939 creates no sympathy from you, huh? Or that the NKVD ground those nations down in 1939-1941, seizing property, disbanding civic organizations, and sending anyone they didn’t like to the gulag?

With those facts in mind, its easy to see why parts of the populations of the Baltic States sided with Germany. They hoped to gain a better position as German collaborators than as conquered Russian serfs. In all three nations, who collaborated and why is a complex issue, one best not reduced to one-sentence vitriol.

No it does not because local Baltic communists took over and entered into the USSR. It was not a Russian invasion. I can see why the Balts sided with the Germans but I can’t see why they liked killing the Jews with such enthusiasm and I don’t see how that would allow them to be independent after 1945?

21 Destro  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:17:37am

re: #19 CuriousLurker

LOL, says the guy who incessantly spouts anti-American bigotry. What a freaking clown.

It’s anti American foreign policy not Anti-America per say. Now go back and worship your imaginary baby killing sky god.

22 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:27:47am

re: #21 Destro

It’s anti American foreign policy not Anti-America per say. Now go back and worship your imaginary baby killing sky god.

Don’t go there fucknut.

23 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:28:04am

re: #20 Destro

No it does not because local Baltic communists took over and entered into the USSR. It was not a Russian invasion.

The Soviet troops marched in and then the USSR held a fraudulent ‘election’ to give themselves legal cover. The sham featured citizens being told to report to the polling places, and once there being often given a pre-marked ballot in a sealed envelope. If they were allowed to make their own mark, they did so under the eyes of Soviet officials (and this was after deportations had already started). That constitutes an invasion in my eyes.

24 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:31:29am

re: #21 Destro

It’s anti American foreign policy not Anti-America per say.

LOL, there you go making a clown of yourself again—it’s per se.

Now go back and worship your imaginary baby killing sky god.

Oops, your bigotry is showing again! #FAIL

25 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:38:17am

re: #21 Destro

Unquotable garbage

That’s really low even by your angry standards.

26 dragonath  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:39:17am

re: #16 Destro

Wow, this is straight up revisionism. Someone should ask the Circassians how good they had it in the 19th Century. Poland was subject to Russification and in those regions, did not abolish serfdom until 1861. And I’m not even going to go into the validity of the partitions.

In 1864, the Polish and Belarusian languages were banned in public places; in the 1880s, Polish was banned in schools and on school grounds and offices of Congress Poland. Research and teaching of the Polish language, history or of Catholicism were forbidden. Illiteracy rose as Poles refused to learn Russian. Students were beaten for resisting Russification.[6]

27 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:40:34am

re: #14 CuriousLurker

Oh, FFS. Here we go again.

Desrto & PBL: I’m sick of the ridiculous hyperbole & melodrama that occurs every time you two are in the same thread. If this is going to turn into yet another extended pissing match instead of discussion about the actual topic of the post, then I’m going to shut it down.

I have done that once. It sucks to have to hide a page but when it gets sufficiently ugly it’s better off gone. Just my $.02

28 kirkspencer  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:43:02am

Destro, are you aware that in 1943 the Soviet Union deported and dispersed the population of Kalmykia?

Seriously, have you actually read the history of that nation? Or is the fact that Buddhism is allowed to exist in the modern version, and in fact was allowed restoration (subject to a number of strictures) after the 1970s, blinding you to what happened? They were not allowed “autonomy”. Really.

Bluntly, the Kalmykians and Lakotas actually have a lot in common. What’s in place now is more or less an echo of what was.

29 Interesting Times  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:43:26am

re: #27 Political Atheist

I have done that once. It sucks to have to hide a page but when it gets sufficiently ugly it’s better off gone.

Yet another reason to give Page authors the ability to delete or at least disemvowel comments (perhaps with an automatic notification to Charles and the monitors to verify the action is warranted)

30 dragonath  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:43:55am

re: #21 Destro

What a stupid, insensitive thing to say. I’m so tired of these personal insults.

31 blueraven  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:46:12am

re: #21 Destro

Destro M.O.
When losing an argument resort to Ad Hominem attack. Deflect.

32 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:46:20am

re: #25 Political Atheist

That’s really low even by your angry standards.

I’ll just repeat what I said upstairs:

…no amount of down-dinging is going to change his behavior. He lacks the intellectual honesty & social skills necessary to engage in rational, adult conversation, so he hurls insults when challenged.

re: #27 Political Atheist

I have done that once. It sucks to have to hide a page but when it gets sufficiently ugly it’s better off gone. Just my $.02

Yeah, it’s a matter of weighing what’s more important: hiding the ugliness or leaving it exposed so people can witness someone repeatedly debasing & beclowning himself with dishonesty & personal insults.

33 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 9:52:53am

I say leave it exposed so the world can know what a wretched thing Destro really is as well as reporting him to Charles every time he crosses the line like he has here. Stinky will deal with him soon enough.

34 Varek Raith  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 10:26:16am

re: #21 Destro

Wanker.

35 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 10:36:06am

I wish Sergey was here for this subject. I miss him. *sigh*

36 AlexRogan  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 11:10:25am

re: #21 Destro

You don’t have to agree with everyone, even some of the time, but that doesn’t give you license to be an asshole.

Get fucked.

37 AlexRogan  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 11:17:08am

re: #17 Destro

I won’t let racist/bigoted comments go unchallenged to serve someone’s bullshit anti Orthodox Christian religious agenda (when his religion is just as guilty as are all religions).

Says the person who just loooves beasts like Karadzic and Milosevic.

RAH RAH TEAM, right?

38 AlexRogan  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 11:17:55am

re: #35 CuriousLurker

I wish Sergey was here for this subject. I miss him. *sigh*

Lizards I miss: Sergey and SFZ.

I hope both are alright.

39 dragonath  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 11:23:41am

re: #37 AlexRogan

Says the person who just loooves beasts like Karadzic and Milosevic.

RAH RAH TEAM, right?

My favorite one was when he called someone racist for criticizing Mugabe’s regime.

40 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 11:25:29am

re: #16 Destro

Regarding the Baltics, what happened to them after WW2 was more than well deserved. Their alliance with the Nazis showed they did not deserve nationhood. I can’t feel sympathy for 3 nations full of enthusiastic Nazi collaborates.

Oh, awesome, now you’re into moronic group blame bullshit too!

41 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 12:56:52pm

re: #40 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Oh, awesome, now you’re into moronic group blame bullshit too!

That’s Destro: The only consistent points are that whatever the US did or is doing is evil and that anyone who calls him out for his errors is a bad person.


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