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1 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Jan 26, 2014 5:24:35am

What to you propose should be done to Orthodox Jews (and Muslims) who will continue to circumcise their sons, in spite of new laws? Fine them? Imprison them? Expel them from Denmark? Put them to death?

Orthodox Jews are not going to give up Brit Milah and what will be achieved by enforcing this law is the expulsion of Jews from Denmark.

But it’s not “Anti-Semitic”
//

2 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 26, 2014 7:07:21am

I can’t put things better than Alouette, but I can note that while most Europeans may be religiously tolerant, some are still clearly affected by anti-Semitism. Moreover, anti-circumcision legislation is often pushed by editorials and ads that show no understanding of the importance of the practice for Muslims and Jews.

3 ThatPirateGuy  Sun, Jan 26, 2014 10:24:53am

re: #1 Pie-onist Overlord

What to you propose should be done to Orthodox Jews (and Muslims) who will continue to circumcise their sons, in spite of new laws? Fine them? Imprison them? Expel them from Denmark? Put them to death?

Orthodox Jews are not going to give up Brit Milah and what will be achieved by enforcing this law is the expulsion of Jews from Denmark.

But it’s not “Anti-Semitic”
//

That is brilliant.

4 palomino  Sun, Jan 26, 2014 10:27:21am

re: #1 Pie-onist Overlord

What to you propose should be done to Orthodox Jews (and Muslims) who will continue to circumcise their sons, in spite of new laws? Fine them? Imprison them? Expel them from Denmark? Put them to death?

Orthodox Jews are not going to give up Brit Milah and what will be achieved by enforcing this law is the expulsion of Jews from Denmark.

But it’s not “Anti-Semitic”
//

Who on earth said anything about putting Orthodox Jews to death for circumcising their kids? None of the countries in question even have the death penalty; they all banned it decades ago.

One can oppose an ancient religious practice without being anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, anti-Hindu, etc. Much of the developed world’s attitude towards circumcision has changed somewhat as secular notions of bodily integrity have changed and progressed. You’re oversimplifying a very complex issue if you reduce it to bigotry against minority religions.

5 ThatPirateGuy  Sun, Jan 26, 2014 11:05:43am

re: #4 palomino

One can oppose an ancient religious practice without being anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, anti-Hindu, etc. Much of the developed world’s attitude towards circumcision has changed somewhat as secular notions of bodily integrity have changed and progressed. You’re oversimplifying a very complex issue if you reduce it to bigotry against minority religions.

There has to be an effective deterrent for breaking this law and a means to enforce it. From my limited understanding of Judaism, it is eight days after birth, so the unintended consequences would be Orthodox Jews do it secretly or leave the country . Implicitly this law is anti-semtic. Reminds me of Broken Window theory oddly enough.

6 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jan 26, 2014 11:14:36am

Tip #1: If you’d prefer that people be gentle, it’s best not to grab hold of a third rail topic for your first Page.

San Francisco attempted to get an Anti-Circumcision Initiative on the ballot a few years back and there was a really ugly comic book associated with it. It’s hard not to assume some level of anti-Semitism when stuff like that accompanies something. For more info see this Page, and this one and and this one.

Google results for circumcision jewish site:littlegreenfootballs.com

Google Images results for foreskin man, the comic book mentioned above. Many of the images are pretty overtly anti-Semitic, IMO.

There’s also a long history of anti-Semitism in Europe, so if I were Jewish I’d be plenty leery too, especially with the recent rise of the far-right and keeping in mind that the concentration camps & death marches of Holocaust ended less than 60 years ago.

To you & me maybe it’s just history, but for many Jews it was real in that it affected them & their families directly. I’ve met people who survived the Holocaust, but if I knew that my grandmother or aunt or whatever had died in a Nazi oven, you can be damned sure I’d have some pretty strong feelings about any law that seemed like it was aimed squarely at Jews.

Does that mean the laws DO have a purposely anti-Semitic intent? No, not necessarily, but like I said, it’s really grabbing a third rail to bring it up.

7 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Jan 26, 2014 11:34:14am

re: #4 palomino

Who on earth said anything about putting Orthodox Jews to death for circumcising their kids? None of the countries in question even have the death penalty; they all banned it decades ago.

So explain how they are going to enforce this law against Orthodox Jews? I’ll tell you what’s going to happen: pregnant women will just go “on vacation” and give birth somewhere else, then return when the newborn son is already circumcised.

The most recent countries who banned circumcision for Jews (Nazi Germany & USSR) did have the death penalty and long imprisonment, did they stamp out Brit Milah? No.

8 ThatPirateGuy  Sun, Jan 26, 2014 11:51:04am

re: #6 CuriousLurker

>Tip #1: If you’d prefer that people be gentle, it’s best not to grab hold of a third rail topic for your first Page.

As a Muslim, this topic means a lot to me. Allow me to clarify the gentle remark. I meant the posting rules I might inadvertently break. On topics though, I would not want you and other Lizards to change in anyway. I really appreciate your links and input.

9 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jan 26, 2014 1:56:19pm

re: #6 CuriousLurker

Late correction. Ugh.

There’s also a long history of anti-Semitism in Europe, so if I were Jewish I’d be plenty leery too, especially with the recent rise of the far-right and keeping in mind that the concentration camps & death marches of Holocaust ended less than 60 70 years ago.

10 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jan 26, 2014 1:59:05pm

re: #8 ThatPirateGuy

As a Muslim, this topic means a lot to me.

Ah, okay. That puts things in a different light.

Allow me to clarify the gentle remark. I meant the posting rules I might inadvertently break. On topics though, I would not want you and other Lizards to change in anyway. I really appreciate your links and input.

;o) *thumbs up*

11 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 26, 2014 5:42:57pm

re: #10 CuriousLurker

Ah, okay. That puts things in a different light.

;o) *thumbs up*

And to me as well. This issue comes up from time-to-time and its best we keep an eye on it when it does.


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