re: #290 Fozzie Bear

Since when was desiring “a chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life” a characteristic of “thinking like a westerner”? WTF?

For thousands of years, there has been a tension between these goods, and others, less certain but with their own allure.

Religious extremists, and in some societies they can be so many as to be the drivers of history, make decisions on other grounds. The book “Empires of Trust”, by Thomas Madden, is instructive. Along about AD 64, a pro-Roman Jewish big shot of the day, Agrippa II, argued in Jerusalem against war with Rome. His argument was that the odds were hopeless, on the one hand, and that their grievances could more readily be addressed through channels, on the other. The audience answered him with stones. In AD 66, the Roman garrison of the Jaffa gate, finding itself besieged by Zealots, accepted a deal in which it laid down its arms and walked away. But the forces of a certain Eleazar, on his orders, simply cut them down instead.

There were then pogroms across the region, some against Jews by gentiles, others the other way around. Several legions were sent to Judea under the command of Vespasian. Jerusalem was racked by civil war, and Rome also fell into disorder for a time when Nero was killed.

But in truth the odds were indeed impossible. Vespasian succeeded to the post of emperor, and a massive force under Titus converged on Jerusalem. Terms were offered, but the insurgents were fighting a Holy War and those aren’t decided by weighing the odds. The fight for Jerusalem became a preview of the battle of Stalingrad, with the difference that the defenders lost.

If the history of Judaism includes such contempt for the prospects of “a chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life”, then one can only conclude that any people can fall under the sway of messianic promises of victory in the here and now, never mind the odds.

Westerners, having learned through two world wars just recently, as well as other lessons, that this is madness, don’t pay as much heed to such siren calls as they did a century ago. This new found preference for “a chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life” isn’t anything fixed and permanent in western thinking. But today’s westerners differ from the general run of humanity across history, their own ancestors included, in that they set virtually no store by promises of glory, mighty victories, and the like.

It cannot be taken as given that those who will shape the future of Egypt see things the same way a post-WW2 German or Dane sees things. Perhaps the call of peace and prosperity will win out. But perhaps not.

So to summarize, to your question “since when”, the answer would be, since fairly recently, and then, only partially and temporarily.