re: #731 Obdicut

His argument isn’t weak

You say it isn’t, I say it is. Meh.

I think it’s a fine argument for convincing the already-convinced. But I don’t think it’s very good for “demolishing” the pro-life side. I suspect many pro-lifers would say exactly what I did: I don’t think you should pull the plug on the guy. Then they’d wonder why you were still talking about it.

are you willing to give up your liver

Ineligible, due to a genetic condition. But I do give blood, which comes with some risk. And I think our society is kind of retarded about organ donation; once a person is really-for-sure-dead, their organs should be up for grabs.

To bring it back to the previous point: risk does matter. The risk of pregnancy matters; the risk of organ donation matters… but that’s a separate argument. The violinist argument isn’t about risk, it’s about property rights to your organs, and I find that argument lacking.

re: #732 jamesfirecat

Am I murder for killing the violinist if I wake up in that position? … there are times when it is sociatelly acceptable to kill someone …

“Murder” is (a)unlawful (b)killing of (c)a human being (d)with intent.

I think we’ve got b, c, and d — he’s human, and you did intentionally act with the knowledge that the man would die as a direct result of your actions. I don’t know the applicable laws for a. So it may or may not qualify as murder, and I don’t know if society would consider it acceptable.

When it comes to abortion, we’ve got b and d for sure. We as a society disagree on the details of c. And the supreme court has given us plenty of rulings on a. Whether or not it’s murder depends on who’s “right” about c and whether there’s a “higher law” to overrule SCOTUS on a.

If you want to convince people abortion is “not murder”, you’ve got to address either c or a. The violinist argument is sort of a stab in the general direction of a — should there be a law, or is there a higher law, regarding whether or not you can kill someone who is using your organs without your permission, and does it matter how/why they ended up using your organs?

I think it’s fair to say the whole violinist argument comes down to that (multi-part) question.