Overnight Open Thread

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We live in a world ruled by fictions of every kind — mass merchandising, advertising, politics conducted as a branch of advertising, the instant translation of science and technology into popular imagery, the increasing blurring and intermingling of identities within the realm of consumer goods, the preempting of any free or original imaginative response to experience by the television screen. We live inside an enormous novel. For the writer in particular it is less and less necessary for him to invent the fictional content of his novel. The fiction is already there. The writer’s task is to invent the reality.

— J. G. Ballard

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415 comments
1 Just never mind.  Mon, Mar 28, 2011 10:51:12pm

Overnight posters, be well.
Thread means sleep time for me.
Do not be fooled by the ebil advertisings!

2 Ryan King  Mon, Mar 28, 2011 11:01:16pm

Any idea where to confirm how much Obama has actually spent on idiot nirther litigation? I’m beating down on some FB’ers who imply he’s spent a bunch to ‘hide the real certificate.’

To them I say ‘where’s the real amount of $ spent on defending against 60 lawsuits filed by nutters? Just show me the money!’

3 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 28, 2011 11:06:30pm

For those of you who have been following the Twitter feed of the Bronx Zoo’s Cobra, please be aware that the Bronx Zookeeper is also Twittering.

SHIT.
about 7 hours ago via web

Seriously, @BronxZoosCobra. I give you special entrance to the rodent exhibit and this is how you re-pay me? NOT COOL.
about 7 hours ago via web

Stealing a pedicab: success. Breaking my snake net while fending off tourists: TOTAL FAILURE.
about 4 hours ago via web

Modell’s in Herald Square doesn’t carry nets, WTF.
about 3 hours ago via web

4 Lidane  Mon, Mar 28, 2011 11:07:39pm

re: #2 BigPapa

Bah. I wouldn’t bother with that.

Just ask them if they think the Secret Service, NSA, CIA, and FBI can all be duped simultaneously by a newly elected Senator undergoing his background checks for his security clearances. Or if Barack Obama has a TARDIS enabling him to travel back in time and forge a birth certificate.

5 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Mon, Mar 28, 2011 11:11:22pm

We live in an age where people do not understand how science works, or the concept of critical history research.

This makes people very susceptible to the convenient distortions of actual science and history that make up popular film, TV and fiction, which make the stories more fast-paced and interesting but abandon the nuances and shadings tht make up history.

But Mitt Romney has assured us that “nuance” is a dirty word.

And why has Obama not released the figures on how much he has spent on legal fees hiding his birth certificate from the world?

6 The War TARDIS  Mon, Mar 28, 2011 11:27:36pm

It seems the road to Sirte seems to have been mined. This is one way I see of fixing this.

7 Professor Chaos  Mon, Mar 28, 2011 11:28:25pm

re: #4 Lidane

Bah. I wouldn’t bother with that.

Just ask them if they think the Secret Service, NSA, CIA, and FBI can all be duped simultaneously by a newly elected Senator undergoing his background checks for his security clearances. Or if Barack Obama has a TARDIS enabling him to travel back in time and forge a birth certificate.

All that, and how do these people think he ever get a passport?

Probably where the whole being the Antichrist part comes in.

Idiots.

8 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Mon, Mar 28, 2011 11:32:35pm

re: #4 Lidane

Those are all government agencies, and we all know that the government is in on this plot.

We cannot trust the government, which is why we are demanding that he show us this, er, um, government document…

9 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Mar 28, 2011 11:38:05pm

re: #4 Lidane

Just ask them if they think the Secret Service, NSA, CIA, and FBI can all be duped simultaneously by a newly elected Senator undergoing his background checks for his security clearances.

The answer to that is simple, Lidane. They are all in on the conspiracy to seat an ineligible leader, overthrow the gov’t, and enslave the American people for the purpose of… something.
/

Seriously, arguing with troofers of any stripe is an exercise in unparalleled frustration. ‘Tis better to point, laugh, and exclaim “You are fucking stupid”!

10 laZardo  Mon, Mar 28, 2011 11:42:00pm

re: #9 Slumbering Behemoth

The answer to that is simple, Lidane. They are all in on the conspiracy to seat an ineligible leader, overthrow the gov’t, and enslave the American people for the purpose of… something.
/

Seriously, arguing with troofers of any stripe is an exercise in unparalleled frustration. ‘Tis better to point, laugh, and exclaim “You are fucking stupid”!

“One quarter of the population of this country is essentially retarded.” - George W. Bush

/because South Park is still somehow relevant

11 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 12:03:19am

re: #5 ralphieboy

From the “Frank Says” on the side bar:

Some Scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe

12 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 12:10:05am

Frank comes up different each time it loads, I got

“Government is the Entertainment Division of the military-industrial complex.

Remember Doug Adams: “Government exists to distract people from the real sources of power”.

13 laZardo  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 12:25:32am

re: #12 ralphieboy

Frank comes up different each time it loads, I got

“Government is the Entertainment Division of the military-industrial complex.

Remember Doug Adams: “Government exists to distract people from the real sources of power”.

I got “Who are the brain police?”

14 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 1:28:17am

I’m watching Precious right now. Damn.

15 laZardo  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 1:53:45am

Anon post of the moment, from the Weapons board:

Spooky is always an AC130 Specter gunship

For awhile they were tactically naming AC130’s over Iraq after metal bands, but then they got to Slayer, and a few people thought it was in bad taste (no doubt REMF’s) so the practice stopped

How awesome would it be to hear “This is Slayer triple 6 high and tight, you boys need anything down there?”

XD

16 simoom  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:03:36am

RWW: Obama Featured on Chicago Anti-Abortion Rights Billboards

After an anti-choice organization placed, and ultimately pulled, a New York billboard with the message “The Most Dangerous Place for an African American is in The Womb,” the group is now posting similar billboards in Chicago featuring President Obama. Jill Stanek, a radical anti-choice blogger, details the group Life Always and its new billboard in Obama’s hometown that reads: “Every 21 Minutes, Our Next Possible Leader Is Aborted.” Stanek writes that “Tomorrow, March 29, over 30 pro-life billboards will be unveiled on Chicago’s south side, where residents are predominantly black.”

The billboard includes the the President’s likeness in profile (image in the linked blog post).

17 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:09:02am

re: #11 Slumbering Behemoth

From the “Frank Says” on the side bar:

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.
-Albert Einstein

18 simoom  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:14:46am

re: #2 BigPapa

Any idea where to confirm how much Obama has actually spent on idiot nirther litigation? I’m beating down on some FB’ers who imply he’s spent a bunch to ‘hide the real certificate.’

To them I say ‘where’s the real amount of $ spent on defending against 60 lawsuits filed by nutters? Just show me the money!’

Here’s a list of many of the Birther lawsuits:

One thing worth noticing is that most of the time the President isn’t the defendant, instead it’s often a Governor, Secretary of State or member of the military. I also recall reading somewhere that even when the President is the defendant he’s usually represented pro bono (I don’t have any citation at my fingertips though).

19 rwdflynavy  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:43:36am

re: #2 BigPapa

Any idea where to confirm how much Obama has actually spent on idiot nirther litigation? I’m beating down on some FB’ers who imply he’s spent a bunch to ‘hide the real certificate.’

To them I say ‘where’s the real amount of $ spent on defending against 60 lawsuits filed by nutters? Just show me the money!’

I still think this is the best beat down of the whole birther thing.

Comedy Central Video

20 EdDantes  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 2:58:24am

re: #19 rwdflynavy

Even Mark Levin does not tolerate this crap on his radio show.

21 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:17:57am

Morning, all

22 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:52:30am

Hey, folks. Check this out. Brilliant.

Youtube Video

23 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:57:00am

re: #22 Sergey Romanov

Hey, folks. Check this out. Brilliant.

[Video]

Very good.

24 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:57:15am

Morning All!

25 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:57:33am

I see there are no more night owls posting…we used to have some hellacious arguments over night, whether that’s good or not

so here’s a question….Sanders or Smith?

26 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 3:58:22am

re: #25 albusteve

I see there are no more night owls posting…we used to have some hellacious arguments over night, whether that’s good or not

so here’s a question…Sanders or Smith?

I vote for the colonel.

27 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:00:57am

when there’s no one aruond to see you post……are you still a poster?

28 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:01:21am

re: #23 researchok

Details, detail. E.g. note the next flag after Libya ;)

29 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:02:00am

re: #27 wozzablog

when there’s no one aruond to see you post…are you still a poster?

Well … at the very least a poser.

30 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:02:18am

re: #26 researchok

I vote for the colonel.

I vote for the coughdrop

31 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:03:29am

re: #29 Sergey Romanov

Well … at the very least a poser.

You’ve got the difference between a poster and a poser down to a T.

32 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:04:35am

re: #31 wozzablog

The famous bulls-eye T?

33 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:04:37am

re: #31 wozzablog

You’ve got the difference between a poster and a poser down to a T.

Red pencil guy.

COMMIE.

34 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:05:42am

re: #32 Sergey Romanov

The famous bulls-eye T?

Gus is the original owner of that, though he does let others wear it from time time.

35 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:12:33am

IND: Dem politicians return:
indystar.com

They took off for a month and what did they get?


They got the right-to-work bill, which bars companies and unions from negotiating contracts that impose fees on nonmembers, shifted to a study committee. They killed outright a bill that would let private companies take over failing public schools. And they won changes in other bills, particularly to HB 1216, the labor bill, and HB 1003, the voucher bill.

The RTW bill was gone the very first day so they wasted an entire month for minor changes on the prevailing wage law for state jobs and a 2 year limit on the number of school vouchers. They could have stayed and got those concessions. Money quote from the article:


Marisa Graham, a kindergarten teacher from Anderson, was at the Statehouse to welcome Democrats back, giving some a hug as they entered.

But, she admitted, she’d hoped for more: the derailment of the private-school voucher bill, rather than just changes that limit the number of vouchers available to 7,500 the first year and 15,000 the second.

“I’m really, really nervous about all the legislation that I’m scared is going to be pushed through as soon as they walk through the door,” Graham said. “I’m afraid we’re just going to have to live with the end result. And in a few years, people will realize that it didn’t work and we’ll have to rebuild our public education system.”

The Anderson school district is one of the very worst in the state. This teacher is trying to keep the status quo (i.e. “shitty”) rather than allowing the state to try to improve. If the people of Anderson had a choice with vouchers, she would be out of a job.

36 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:15:44am

re: #35 RogueOne

IND: Dem politicians return:
[Link: www.indystar.com…]

They took off for a month and what did they get?

The RTW bill was gone the very first day so they wasted an entire month for minor changes on the prevailing wage law for state jobs and a 2 year limit on the number of school vouchers. They could have stayed and got those concessions. Money quote from the article:

The Anderson school district is one of the very worst in the state. This teacher is trying to keep the status quo (i.e. “shitty”) rather than allowing the state to try to improve. If the people of Anderson had a choice with vouchers, she would be out of a job.

Look for more shenanigans across the board.

After all, governing might lead to accountability.

37 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:22:13am

re: #36 researchok

A few years ago the state made changes to their school district law. Instead of having to go to the school in your district you could go to any county school you wanted but you had to provide for your own transportation. Since it passed there has been a mass exodus from the Anderson schools. 10 years ago they had to close their 3rd HS and 3 years ago they spent millions upgrading the other 2 high schools. They’ve lost so many students they had to close another school this year. Anderson is dying and part of the reason is no one wants to move there and send their kids to a crappy school.

38 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:23:01am

re: #35 RogueOne

This teacher is trying to keep the status quo (i.e. “shitty”) rather than allowing the state to try to improve. If the people of Anderson had a choice with vouchers, she would be out of a job.


Being against vouchers doesn’t necessarily mean being for the status quo. I’m against them and I think we need some extreme school reform in this country.

40 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:28:55am

re: #38 prononymous

The only people left in this particular school district are parents who can’t get their kids to another school, mostly minorities. The exodus has been so massive the other county schools are maxed out, without more private schools to pick up the excess we’re stuck.

41 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:29:32am

re: #39 Varek Raith

Magnitude 6.3 - OFF THE EAST COAST OF HONSHU, JAPAN
2011 March 29 10:54:33 UTC

They just can’t catch a break.

42 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:30:17am

re: #40 RogueOne

So why not simply reform the school?

43 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:30:36am

re: #40 RogueOne

The only people left in this particular school district are parents who can’t get their kids to another school, mostly minorities. The exodus has been so massive the other county schools are maxed out, without more private schools to pick up the excess we’re stuck.

At some point, schools will have to deliver.

It is a shame the system has to implode first.

44 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:31:13am

re: #42 prononymous

So why not simply reform the school?

Entrenched bureaucratic bloat.

45 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:32:30am

re: #42 prononymous

So why not simply reform the school?

Strong teachers unions in the urban areas which are usually the worst districts in the state. One of the proposals was to let failing schools like this one to be taken over by private companies. That’s now off the table. Anderson is on the verge of being taken over by the state, I can’t see that making it much better.

46 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:32:38am

The GOP controlled Texas SBOE is doing a damn good job destroying education.
Rewriting history.
Rewriting science.
Sort that bullshit out in your party first, than I may take the GOP voucher thing a little bit more seriously.

47 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:33:13am

re: #42 prononymous

So why not simply reform the school?

fuck that…reform the students and parents….I’m sick of paying for other people’s failures

48 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:34:30am

re: #46 Varek Raith

The GOP controlled Texas SBOE is doing a damn good job destroying education.
Rewriting history.
Rewriting science.
Sort that bullshit out in your party first, than I may take the GOP voucher thing a little bit more seriously.

You have a point, but the schools haven’t been failing longt before the current GOP stupidfest you speak of.

49 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:35:13am

PIMF

You have a point, but the schools have been failing longt before the current GOP stupidfest you speak of.

50 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:36:06am

re: #48 researchok

You have a point, but the schools haven’t been failing longt before the current GOP stupidfest you speak of.

True, but the GOP has no credibility on education when they deny science and try to force religion into it. Or rewrite history to fit their fantasy view of America. They need to sort their own house before they lecture unions and such.

51 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:36:37am

re: #47 albusteve

fuck that…reform the students and parents…I’m sick of paying for other people’s failures

More realistic to change the schools.

52 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:38:09am

re: #51 researchok

More realistic to change the schools.

The schools are the way to reach the next generation of parents.

53 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:38:59am

re: #50 Varek Raith

True, but the GOP has no credibility on education when they deny science and try to force religion into it. Or rewrite history to fit their fantasy view of America. They need to sort their own house before they lecture unions and such.

NO ONE has credibility on schools (which in a way, works in our collective favor- we don’t have to be nice to anyone anymore).

Look at traditional GOP/Dem states.

AL, MI. I, MS, etc, etc. have all failed to deliver.

54 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:39:45am

re: #52 wozzablog

The schools are the way to reach the next generation of parents.

From your mouth to God’s ear, as they say.

55 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:40:31am

re: #44 researchok

Could it also be that education is treated like a political football by the school board and politicians rather than the serious issue it is? Thus no consistently applied plan and no skin deep changes?

re: #45 RogueOne

Strong teachers unions in the urban areas which are usually the worst districts in the state. One of the proposals was to let failing schools like this one to be taken over by private companies. That’s now off the table. Anderson is on the verge of being taken over by the state, I can’t see that making it much better.

How are the unions preventing reforms exactly?

re: #47 albusteve

fuck that…reform the students and parents…I’m sick of paying for other people’s failures

I would agree that parents need to stop treating school like a place to hold their children while they are at work. And the students could use some discipline.

But that’s not to say that there isn’t some things seriously wrong with our school system. Or that other countries successes shows reforms don’t necessarily have anything to do with unions, vouchers, etc.

56 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:41:13am

School failures are not about politics (much as partisans of both sides would have you believe).

School failures have become institutionalized.

57 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:41:43am

re: #55 prononymous

Could it also be that education is treated like a political football by the school board and politicians rather than the serious issue it is? Thus no consistently applied plan and no skin deep changes?

re: #45 RogueOne

How are the unions preventing reforms exactly?

re: #47 albusteve

I would agree that parents need to stop treating school like a place to hold their children while they are at work. And the students could use some discipline.

But that’s not to say that there isn’t some things seriously wrong with our school system. Or that other countries successes shows reforms don’t necessarily have anything to do with unions, vouchers, etc.

That I can agree with.

58 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:42:24am

re: #51 researchok

More realistic to change the schools.

what proof is there of that?….schools suck up money like a black hole

59 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:42:50am

re: #50 Varek Raith

True, but the GOP has no credibility on education when they deny science and try to force religion into it. Or rewrite history to fit their fantasy view of America. They need to sort their own house before they lecture unions and such.

Quite agree about stones and glass houses RE: education policy.

But - school ditsricts should be able to change the head teacher & senior management team at a “failing” school and impose best practice derived from better performing schools in similar areas. That though, I fear is not what is meant by educational reform.

60 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:43:05am

Let me say this the simple Alabama way: “Vouchers equal resegregation.” We know it, and about half of us are hungry for it.

61 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:43:21am

re: #58 albusteve

what proof is there of that?…schools suck up money like a black hole

So everyone should be homeschooled?

62 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:44:10am

re: #58 albusteve

what proof is there of that?…schools suck up money like a black hole

Schools can undergo change in a few years. Culture change can take decades.

As it is, I agree with your sentiments. I’m just taking a pragmatic position.

63 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:45:20am

re: #61 wozzablog

So everyone should be homeschooled?

I know that wasn’t going to be your point. Was just being reflexive - but schools can do nothing ut suck up money - they by definition do not create anything saleable.

64 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:45:24am

re: #49 researchok

PIMF

You have a point, but the schools have been failing longt before the current GOP stupidfest you speak of.

Depends on how you look at it:
US News ranks TX High Schools 14th:
education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com

but by SAT scores 45th:
blog.bestandworststates.com

They, at least, have an excuse Indiana doesn’t…a million immigrant kids who don’t speak English as their first language.

65 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:46:12am

re: #61 wozzablog

So everyone should be homeschooled?

pressure the parents with their children’s bad, disruptive behaviors….make them accountable by law….when a student is truant toss the parents in jail, that sort of thing…this country is too fucking soft where it really counts

66 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:47:31am

re: #65 albusteve

pressure the parents with their children’s bad, disruptive behaviors…make them accountable by law…when a student is truant toss the parents in jail, that sort of thing…this country is too fucking soft where it really counts

Parents should face sanction if their kids are not present - but after - say 14 - the parents can’t do much otehr than drive the kid to the front gate and march them in. If the kid skips after first period it’s on the kid.

67 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:47:32am

re: #50 Varek Raith

True, but the GOP has no credibility on education when they deny science and try to force religion into it. Or rewrite history to fit their fantasy view of America. They need to sort their own house before they lecture unions and such.

Can you explain how Texas deals with their school standards has any effect on the rest of the country? Using your logic Indiana shouldn’t do anything because TX is stupid.

68 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:48:32am

What galls me me most is how any political party can blame the other for school failure.

This failure has been going on for decades. Morons in Texas, morons in Michigan. moron politicians everywhere.

That’s the real pandemic.

And there are core groups on both sides who want to play politics rather than fix the problem.

69 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:48:40am

re: #60 Decatur Deb

Let me say this the simple Alabama way: “Vouchers equal resegregation.” We know it, and about half of us are hungry for it.

That’s the Jim Crow argument. As soon as you let minorities choose their schools you can’t keep them locked into districts no one else wants to be in.

70 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:49:06am

re: #67 RogueOne

Can you explain how Texas deals with their school standards has any effect on the rest of the country? Using your logic Indiana shouldn’t do anything because TX is stupid.

Texas is the largest market for textbooks.
The textbook makers tailor the books to Texas standards because it’s cheaper.
Therefore, many school districts around the country use Texas approved books.

71 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:49:10am

re: #66 wozzablog

Parents should face sanction if their kids are not present - but after - say 14 - the parents can’t do much otehr than drive the kid to the front gate and march them in. If the kid skips after first period it’s on the kid.

lock the gates….so many lame excuses for our dismal schools

72 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:49:57am

re: #64 RogueOne

Depends on how you look at it:
US News ranks TX High Schools 14th:
[Link: education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com…]

but by SAT scores 45th:
[Link: blog.bestandworststates.com…]

They, at least, have an excuse Indiana doesn’t…a million immigrant kids who don’t speak English as their first language.

What’s the excuse in Michigan?

All I know is colleges admit to dumbing down to accommodate students.

Pudding and all that.

73 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:50:41am

re: #70 Varek Raith

Texas is the largest market for textbooks.
The textbook makers tailor the books to Texas standards because it’s cheaper.
Therefore, many school districts around the country use Texas approved books.

bust up the textbook scam…somebody is being paid off

74 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:51:10am

re: #70 Varek Raith

Texas is the largest market for textbooks.
The textbook makers tailor the books to Texas standards because it’s cheaper.
Therefore, many school districts around the country use Texas approved books.

I destroyed that argument when it was going on. It’s no longer the 70’s, publishing costs are minimal compared to 20 years ago. Indiana school districts use textbooks designed by Indiana teachers and have an Indiana focus. I’d be shocked if other states didn’t do the same.

75 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:51:38am

re: #70 Varek Raith

Texas is the largest market for textbooks.
The textbook makers tailor the books to Texas standards because it’s cheaper.
Therefore, many school districts around the country use Texas approved books.

And California textbooks are weighted the other way.

76 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:51:47am

re: #72 researchok

What’s the excuse in Michigan?

All I know is colleges admit to dumbing down to accommodate students.

Pudding and all that.

same with entry exams for police and firefighters…it’s disgusting

77 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:52:11am

I went to a really really bad school in the UK - where English wasn’t the first language of a bunch of the kids - and it would have been an absolute luxury if they all spoke spanish as their main language - instead it was arabic, swahili, urdu, turkish, bengali - you get the picture.
The head mistress was incompetent, there was no senior management structure worth a damn and results were among the bottom 5% in the country.

The school was turned around - with the same pupils in it - by a new head, senior staff and governing body - with a little extra money to fund the turn around.

No vouchers, no opt-outs - nothing fancy, just good management and new best practices.

Thats all it takes. It’s not rocket science.

78 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:52:16am

re: #75 researchok

And California textbooks are weighted the other way.

Oh?
Show me where they do the kind of bullshit the Texas SBOE is doing.

79 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:52:28am

I liked this article about some of the issues in higher education. I got linked to it by researchok a while back, IIRC.

80 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:52:59am

re: #75 researchok

And California textbooks are weighted the other way.

What are you talking about?

81 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:53:00am

re: #76 albusteve

same with entry exams for police and firefighters…it’s disgusting

And it’s not about politics, per se- it is about tolerating institutionalized failure

82 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:53:08am

re: #71 albusteve

lock the gates…so many lame excuses for our dismal schools

Provide a better school maintainance budget to fix the holes in the fences - and locking the gates might work ;-)

83 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:53:48am

re: #76 albusteve

same with entry exams for police and firefighters…it’s disgusting

…because we’re become dumber and fatter with each generation!//

84 freetoken  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:54:19am

re: #64 RogueOne

Depends on how you look at it:
US News ranks TX High Schools 14th:
[Link: education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com…]


They, at least, have an excuse Indiana doesn’t…a million immigrant kids who don’t speak English as their first language.

If you look at that ranking method - what it is really ranking - and the states which rank highly, it becomes clear that the “gold” or best schools are in states where there are relatively large groups of wealthy people, who form communities with well funded super-schools.

However, several of the states that rank low on that list in reality are the most literate and numerate (from many long running tests.)

Be careful of “rankings”.

85 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:55:14am

re: #78 Varek Raith

Oh?
Show me where they do the kind of bullshit the Texas SBOE is doing.

Here’s one

In the end it doesn’t matter. It isn’t about textbooks in Michigan, for example.

They can’y get kids to come to class to have the textbooks- and Michigan in no GOP bastion.

86 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:55:35am

re: #82 wozzablog

Provide a better school maintainance budget to fix the holes in the fences - and locking the gates might work ;-)

make the parents do it for free….pay em off with some hotdogs when the job’s done

87 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:56:44am

re: #69 RogueOne

That’s the Jim Crow argument. As soon as you let minorities choose their schools you can’t keep them locked into districts no one else wants to be in.

re: #73 albusteve

bust up the textbook scam…somebody is being paid off

It’s busting itself up, with the help of technology. My daughter teaches her small, highly varied incarcerated kids English entirely from Kindles. She got the Kindles herself with two competitive grants. (PS—Amazon did not cooperate.)

88 iceweasel  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:56:55am

re: #55 prononymous

Could it also be that education is treated like a political football by the school board and politicians rather than the serious issue it is? Thus no consistently applied plan and no skin deep changes?

re: #45 RogueOne

How are the unions preventing reforms exactly?

re: #47 albusteve

I would agree that parents need to stop treating school like a place to hold their children while they are at work. And the students could use some discipline.

But that’s not to say that there isn’t some things seriously wrong with our school system. Or that other countries successes shows reforms don’t necessarily have anything to do with unions, vouchers, etc.

Everyone always mouths the pious platitudes about the children being the future, but very rarely does anyone deliver. Reminds me of this old onion article:
Children, Schmildren

ap, yap, yap. For as long as I can remember, people have been yapping about schools for the children, health-care for the children, food for the children, clothing for the children, shelter for the children. Fuck the children.

Day after day it’s shoved down our throats: We have to love the children and prepare them for tomorrow. We’re supposed to prevent them from falling down wells and out of cars, and we’re supposed to keep toxic chemicals out of their reach. We’re supposed to change the babies’ diapers and call a doctor when they stop breathing. Christ almighty, when do we get a break? Do the children ever stop taking? For just once, let’s let the children fend for themselves.

They were spouting off the same crap in the ’60s, about how we have to take care of the children because they’re our planet’s future. And you know what happened when we didn’t take care of them? Nothing! They grew up and became adults, and the planet didn’t end!

I swear, if I hear one more word about the goddamn children, I’m going to choke somebody.

89 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:57:12am

re: #84 freetoken

If you look at that ranking method - what it is really ranking - and the states which rank highly, it becomes clear that the “gold” or best schools are in states where there are relatively large groups of wealthy people, who form communities with well funded super-schools.

However, several of the states that rank low on that list in reality are the most literate and numerate (from many long running tests.)

Be careful of “rankings”.

Again, from UK experience - league tables tell you nothing.

A school with middling national score in a “good” neighbourhood” is probably failing, but one with a score only a few points lower in a “bad” neigbbourhood is probably suceeding.

90 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:57:28am

re: #77 wozzablog

In IN the worst districts are all urban schools. The county schools score considerably higher which was part of the reasoning in letting parents choose. There are a variety of reasons why the urban schools are failing and I’m not laying it all at the feet of the teachers/administrators. I don’t know the answer to the problem but I do know what’s not working. In 2 years we’ll have an additional 15k kids on vouchers and we’ll see how it goes.

91 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:58:30am

show me a problem with our schools and I’ll give you a one sentence solution….most problems are not complicated or even expensive to solve….more discipline would be the fasted and easiest way to improve learning

92 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:58:50am

re: #69 RogueOne

That’s the Jim Crow argument. As soon as you let minorities choose their schools you can’t keep them locked into districts no one else wants to be in.

Can’t tell it your idea of vouchers is like the ones I’m talking about. The locals often want vouchers for use on church-based private academies or homeschool materials.

93 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 4:59:10am

re: #84 freetoken

I noticed. That’s why they rank high on one and very low on the other. Everybody fret’s about “What’s wrong with Kansas” but kansas students lead the country in SAT scores. It would be nice if Indiana had that problem.

94 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:01:40am

re: #92 Decatur Deb

Can’t tell it your idea of vouchers is like the ones I’m talking about. The locals often want vouchers for use on church-based private academies or homeschool materials.

The new indiana law will allow kids to go to the state sanctioned school of their choice including religious schools. As long as the kids come out being able to read/write and have some proficiency in science/math I don’t really care who (or if) they pray to on a daily basis.

95 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:01:55am

re: #92 Decatur Deb

Can’t tell it your idea of vouchers is like the ones I’m talking about. The locals often want vouchers for use on church-based private academies or homeschool materials.

Voucher programs/lotteries in inner cities are popular because people jusyt want better schools.

If a Hindu Academy had a 100% Ivy League acceptance rate, people would be lining up to get in.

96 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:02:33am

re: #93 RogueOne

Most students in Kansas take the ACT. Only those who are looking to apply to really competitive schools take the SAT.

Only 6% of Kansas students took the SAT.

97 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:02:52am

re: #93 RogueOne

And yet such metrics can be just as misleading. SATs are taken by voluntary participants.

98 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:03:15am

re: #93 RogueOne

I noticed. That’s why they rank high on one and very low on the other. Everybody fret’s about “What’s wrong with Kansas” but kansas students lead the country in SAT scores. It would be nice if Indiana had that problem.

And the more we focus on numbers, the less likely we are to get good schools.

Education is not like NCAA basketball rankings.

99 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:04:39am

re: #96 Obdicut

Most students in Kansas take the ACT. Only those who are looking to apply to really competitive schools take the SAT.

Only 6% of Kansas students took the SAT.

www2.ljworld.com


The average composite score for Kansas in 2004 was 21.6, also above the national average. The average scores in English, reading, math and science for Kansas seniors also rose slightly compared to 2004.

“It’s very good news,” said Bill Wagnon, State Board of Education chairman. “The superior quality of the Kansas education system is demonstrated by these kind of figures.”

Fifteen states had higher average composite scores than Kansas, but none tested as high a percentage of graduating high school seniors.

100 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:05:54am

re: #95 researchok

Voucher programs/lotteries in inner cities are popular because people jusyt want better schools.

If a Hindu Academy had a 100% Ivy League acceptance rate, people would be lining up to get in.

This is Alabama. If a madrassa had 98% white faces and a 100% SEC football scholarship rate, people would be lining up to get in.

101 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:06:56am

re: #100 Decatur Deb

This is Alabama. If a madrassa had 98% white faces and a 100% SEC football scholarship rate, people would be lining up to get in.

Now that’s a culture problem.

102 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:08:18am

re: #100 Decatur Deb

This is Alabama. If a madrassa had 98% white faces and a 100% SEC football scholarship rate, people would be lining up to get in.

People value football over education.

No wonder politicians can get away with not fixing schools.

103 researchok  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:08:39am

BBL

104 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:09:16am

re: #102 researchok

People value football over education.

No wonder politicians can get away with not fixing schools.

bullseye

105 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:09:17am

The voucher system isn’t going to actually help the standard of education in this country unless private schools are forced to take any student regardless of behavior problems, etc., the same way public schools do.

Otherwise, we’ll get a system where the public schools have to deal with all the problem kids, and the private schools get to be state-funded while enjoying the benefits of selecting from a population— which also means that of course they’ll have better results, since they’re working from a better starting point.

106 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:09:51am

re: #102 researchok

People value football basketball over education.

No wonder politicians can get away with not fixing schools.

Indiana edit

107 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:10:10am

re: #102 researchok

People value football over education.

No wonder politicians can get away with not fixing schools.


Hey—We’re number one.

108 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:12:04am

re: #105 Obdicut

The voucher system isn’t going to actually help the standard of education in this country unless private schools are forced to take any student regardless of behavior problems, etc., the same way public schools do.

Otherwise, we’ll get a system where the public schools have to deal with all the problem kids, and the private schools get to be state-funded while enjoying the benefits of selecting from a population— which also means that of course they’ll have better results, since they’re working from a better starting point.

Ta-Da!!!

109 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:14:07am

re: #105 Obdicut

The voucher system isn’t going to actually help the standard of education in this country unless private schools are forced to take any student regardless of behavior problems, etc., the same way public schools do.

Otherwise, we’ll get a system where the public schools have to deal with all the problem kids, and the private schools get to be state-funded while enjoying the benefits of selecting from a population— which also means that of course they’ll have better results, since they’re working from a better starting point.

EXACTLY. This is the biggest reason why I don’t support vouchers.

110 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:14:15am

re: #105 Obdicut

The voucher system isn’t going to actually help the standard of education in this country unless private schools are forced to take any student regardless of behavior problems, etc., the same way public schools do.

Otherwise, we’ll get a system where the public schools have to deal with all the problem kids, and the private schools get to be state-funded while enjoying the benefits of selecting from a population— which also means that of course they’ll have better results, since they’re working from a better starting point.

And bingo was his name-o.

111 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:14:49am

re: #107 Decatur Deb

Hey—We’re number one.

No American team has yet lost in the world series of baseball…………

112 Pie-onist Overlord  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:16:09am

re: #111 wozzablog

No American team has yet lost in the world series of baseball…

For European countries, the World Cup has taken the place of war.

113 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:16:55am

re: #112 Alouette

For European countries, the World Cup has taken the place of war.

It’s an Italian plot.

114 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:17:17am

tangent…HS honors student is a mental and emotional midget….good grades obviously do not produce good people

On Thursday, March 24, 17-year-old Rachel Hachero called her mother from a car dealership and asked her to co-sign a loan for a vehicle. When Rachel’s mother Linda Hachero refused, Rachel threatened to kill her, reports said.

MSNBC Video

115 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:18:04am

re: #114 albusteve

tangent…HS honors student is a mental and emotional midget…good grades obviously do not produce good people

On Thursday, March 24, 17-year-old Rachel Hachero called her mother from a car dealership and asked her to co-sign a loan for a vehicle. When Rachel’s mother Linda Hachero refused, Rachel threatened to kill her, reports said.

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com…]

HS = highly strung?

116 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:19:09am

re: #112 Alouette

For European countries, the World Cup has taken the place of war.

I would give the Scot’s a better chance in a war than in a football tournament, mores the pity.

117 iceweasel  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:20:00am

re: #116 wozzablog

I would give the Scot’s a better chance in a war than in a football tournament, mores the pity.

The bagpipe is a terrifying instrument.

118 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:20:05am

re: #114 albusteve

tangent…HS honors student is a mental and emotional midget…good grades obviously do not produce good people

On Thursday, March 24, 17-year-old Rachel Hachero called her mother from a car dealership and asked her to co-sign a loan for a vehicle. When Rachel’s mother Linda Hachero refused, Rachel threatened to kill her, reports said.

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com…]

This girl should definitely go to an Ivy League school that permits concealed carry.

119 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:20:16am

re: #105 Obdicut

That’s a valid point. The flip-side to that argument is to ask what public schools are doing to deal with those students. It seems their answer is to expel the worst behaving and performing students. Again, it mostly affects the urban poor/minority students. Indianapolis graduates less than 59% of their black students while the state-wide average is 75%. That’s pathetic but it’s still better than 60%.

120 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:20:29am

re: #117 iceweasel

The bagpipe is a terrifying instrument.

Of torture.

121 iceweasel  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:22:31am

re: #120 wozzablog

Of torture.

Shock and awe, baby!

122 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:24:14am

re: #119 RogueOne

That’s a valid point. The flip-side to that argument is to ask what public schools are doing to deal with those students. It seems their answer is to expel the worst behaving and performing students. Again, it mostly affects the urban poor/minority students. Indianapolis graduates less than 59% of their black students while the state-wide average is 75%. That’s pathetic but it’s still better than 60%.

If scores are all that matter to obtain money - rather than pupil improvement, then obviously schools will jettison the students holding their scores back.

The system needs changing. More emphasis needs to be placed on dragging kids up from F to C than on how many A’s there are.

123 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:25:23am

re: #122 wozzablog

If scores are all that matter to obtain money - rather than pupil improvement, then obviously schools will jettison the students holding their scores back.

The system needs changing. More emphasis needs to be placed on dragging kids up from F to C than on how many A’s there are.

Turning a B to an A is the easy part, the real hard graft is the lower rungs on the ladder.

124 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:25:32am

re: #119 RogueOne

It seems their answer is to expel the worst behaving and performing students

The rates of expulsion are actually pretty low. For example, under 600 students were expelled from public schools in Chicago between 1995 and 2007. That’s out of a yearly population of 400,000. And when they’re expelled, they’re sent to another alternative high school.

So no, the answer of public schools (in most places, anyway) is not to expel the worst behaving and performing.

125 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:27:08am

re: #119 RogueOne

That’s a valid point. The flip-side to that argument is to ask what public schools are doing to deal with those students. It seems their answer is to expel the worst behaving and performing students. Again, it mostly affects the urban poor/minority students. Indianapolis graduates less than 59% of their black students while the state-wide average is 75%. That’s pathetic but it’s still better than 60%.

she should pick lettuce for two years after her trial…

126 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:28:27am

re: #119 RogueOne

More on Indy graduation rates:


At 58.3%, the Indianapolis Public Schools’ Black graduation rate was the highest it’s been since the state changed how graduation rates were calculated several years ago. And historic Crispus Attucks High School shares with Speedway High School a perfect 100% Black graduation rate for the Class of 2010.

After Attucks and Speedway, the top Black graduation rates for area high schools were: Ben Davis University (96.9%); Pike (89.0%), Mt. Vernon High (88.5%); Avon (87.8%); Ben Davis (86.3%); Carmel-Clay (86.2%); Lawrence North (85.6%); Herron Charter (85.4%); North Central (83.4%) and Charles Tindley Charter (83.3%)

Mt. Vernon is the school I attended and, even though I hated it, it’s a remarkably good school. One of the first things I noticed when I moved there was there were zero minorities in the district. I went from a 60/40 school to a 100% white district. Thanks to parents being able to choose their districts that’s changed. That district isn’t in Marion Co. so those parents are paying and driving their kids out to the middle of a cornfield to go to school.

127 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:29:07am

BO says school tests punishes students

“Too often what we have been doing is using these tests to punish students,” the president told students and parents at a town hall hosted by the Univision Spanish-language television network at Bell Multicultural High School in Washington, D.C.

news.yahoo.com

128 garhighway  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:29:21am

Morning all:

Here’s a fun piece from politico:

Trump fails to produce birth certificate

Donald Trump made headlines earlier today when he provided what he said was a copy of his birth certificate — but a quick check reveals it’s actually not an official document.

The paper that Trump released says “Jamaica Hospital” on top and lists the date and time of what he says was his birth to “Mr. and Mrs. Fred C. Trump.” The piece of paper has a seal at the bottom.

But after several New York City-based readers contacted POLITICO’s Maggie Haberman, her call to city officials revealed that an actual birth certificate, which is issued by the Department of Health, would have the agency’s seal and also a signature of the city registrar - neither of which the Trump document has. Officials said the city Health Department is the “sole issuing authority” of official birth certificates in New York, and that the document would clearly say so, and “city officials said it’s not an official document.”

It appears instead to be a hospital “certificate of birth,” meaning the piece of paper the hospital gave to his family saying he was born. Such a document typically has the signature of the hospital administrator and the attending physician.

Trump lawyer and advisor Michael Cohen didn’t respond to Haberman’s question about the document.

Trump’s mother, it should be noted, was born in Scotland, which is not part of the United States. His plane is registered in the Bahamas, also a foreign country. This fact pattern — along with the wave of new questions surrounding what he claims is a birth certificate — raises serious doubts about his eligibility to serve as President of the United States.

politico.com

129 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:30:57am

re: #124 Obdicut

The rates of expulsion are actually pretty low. For example, under 600 students were expelled from public schools in Chicago between 1995 and 2007. That’s out of a yearly population of 400,000. And when they’re expelled, they’re sent to another alternative high school.

So no, the answer of public schools (in most places, anyway) is not to expel the worst behaving and performing.

The worst-behaving in 11 counties are sent to my daughter’s ‘school’. She has a serious mace spray, a panic alarm around her neck, and BIG guards in the hall. (Her only injury to date was caused by a guard during her annual disarmed-combat training, though she has been maced a couple times.) She did worse teaching a normal county school.

130 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:31:18am

re: #128 garhighway

Morning all:

Here’s a fun piece from politico:

Trump fails to produce birth certificate

Donald Trump made headlines earlier today when he provided what he said was a copy of his birth certificate — but a quick check reveals it’s actually not an official document.

The paper that Trump released says “Jamaica Hospital” on top and lists the date and time of what he says was his birth to “Mr. and Mrs. Fred C. Trump.” The piece of paper has a seal at the bottom.

But after several New York City-based readers contacted POLITICO’s Maggie Haberman, her call to city officials revealed that an actual birth certificate, which is issued by the Department of Health, would have the agency’s seal and also a signature of the city registrar - neither of which the Trump document has. Officials said the city Health Department is the “sole issuing authority” of official birth certificates in New York, and that the document would clearly say so, and “city officials said it’s not an official document.”

It appears instead to be a hospital “certificate of birth,” meaning the piece of paper the hospital gave to his family saying he was born. Such a document typically has the signature of the hospital administrator and the attending physician.

Trump lawyer and advisor Michael Cohen didn’t respond to Haberman’s question about the document.

Trump’s mother, it should be noted, was born in Scotland, which is not part of the United States. His plane is registered in the Bahamas, also a foreign country. This fact pattern — along with the wave of new questions surrounding what he claims is a birth certificate — raises serious doubts about his eligibility to serve as President of the United States.

[Link: www.politico.com…]

Hah!

131 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:32:30am

re: #122 wozzablog

If scores are all that matter to obtain money - rather than pupil improvement, then obviously schools will jettison the students holding their scores back.

The system needs changing. More emphasis needs to be placed on dragging kids up from F to C than on how many A’s there are.

I feel that funding linked to standardized testing and graduation rates is a strong pressure towards mediocrity. Everything gets dumbed down so more pass and the students are basically taught to take tests. Real useful life skills there.

Frankly, I think that we are trying to put individuals all in the same box and they don’t all necessarily fit. Not everybody has the same dreams, intellect, patience, attention span, life goals, etc so why should we expect that one education would be appropriate for everyone?

132 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:34:20am

re: #127 albusteve

Bell Multicultural High School in Washington, D.C.

That’s a real place? Holy cow. The principal’s name is probably something like Sky Spring Wintergarden-Morningsong.

133 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:35:35am

re: #132 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That’s a real place? Holy cow. The principal’s name is probably something like Sky Spring Wintergarden-Morningsong.

The PTA pot-lucks are probably amazing.

134 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:36:26am

re: #131 prononymous

I feel that funding linked to standardized testing and graduation rates is a strong pressure towards mediocrity. Everything gets dumbed down so more pass and the students are basically taught to take tests. Real useful life skills there.

Frankly, I think that we are trying to put individuals all in the same box and they don’t all necessarily fit. Not everybody has the same dreams, intellect, patience, attention span, life goals, etc so why should we expect that one education would be appropriate for everyone?

the citizens pay for standardized education, and it’s worked fairly well before….whether it’s appropriate or not is the students/parents decision…it’s not unreasonable to expect a child to stay in school and do the best they can til they drop out

135 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:36:48am

re: #133 Decatur Deb

The PTA pot-lucks are probably amazing.

The reults may have been lousy for the first few years at my highschool - but we never missed a parents food evening :p

136 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:36:53am

re: #102 researchok

People value football over education.

No wonder politicians can get away with not fixing schools.

A couple or so years ago, Chattanooga decided to fix its budget problem by cutting back sports, specifically football. This is because over the previous few years the traditional cuts - music, art, and other such ‘frivolities’ - had already been cut to the bone. There were parents on every frigging street corner with buckets to raise cash to keep sports. Nonesuch, of course, for any other programs, but By God Football…

yeah.

137 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:37:35am

re: #124 Obdicut

I’m not buying that only 600 students were expelled in chicago during a 12 year time span. That’s not passing the smell test. According to the feds the expulsion rate for everyone is close to 9%:

nces.ed.gov

and this graph:
Image: sFig3.2.gif

and NAACP head Ben Jealous agrees:
(video)
thegrio.com

138 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:37:41am

re: #128 garhighway

Morning all:

Here’s a fun piece from politico:

Trump fails to produce birth certificate

Donald Trump made headlines earlier today when he provided what he said was a copy of his birth certificate — but a quick check reveals it’s actually not an official document.

The paper that Trump released says “Jamaica Hospital” on top and lists the date and time of what he says was his birth to “Mr. and Mrs. Fred C. Trump.” The piece of paper has a seal at the bottom.

But after several New York City-based readers contacted POLITICO’s Maggie Haberman, her call to city officials revealed that an actual birth certificate, which is issued by the Department of Health, would have the agency’s seal and also a signature of the city registrar - neither of which the Trump document has. Officials said the city Health Department is the “sole issuing authority” of official birth certificates in New York, and that the document would clearly say so, and “city officials said it’s not an official document.”

It appears instead to be a hospital “certificate of birth,” meaning the piece of paper the hospital gave to his family saying he was born. Such a document typically has the signature of the hospital administrator and the attending physician.

Trump lawyer and advisor Michael Cohen didn’t respond to Haberman’s question about the document.

Trump’s mother, it should be noted, was born in Scotland, which is not part of the United States. His plane is registered in the Bahamas, also a foreign country. This fact pattern — along with the wave of new questions surrounding what he claims is a birth certificate — raises serious doubts about his eligibility to serve as President of the United States.

[Link: www.politico.com…]

I don’t know if this makes any sense or not, but I wonder, is this the exact outcome that Trump wants?

Think like a Brither for a moment (I’m not, just using this as an example)… he produces something that he says is his birth certificate, but it’s not, similar to the way brithers have claimed that the certificate of live birth doesn’t prove an actual birth place, legally?

So, he releases this, the left/right make a stink about it, coming from what ever point of view, maybe he has a few other tricks up his sleeve that tries to mimic the “controversy” surrounding Obama’s place of birth, he becomes sort of a surrogate for the birthers, using his situation to show how brithers may be right.

Probably over thinking this, but I can’t see him trying to pawn something off like that unless he has a reason.

He’s rich, but he’s not stone-cold stupid.

139 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:38:01am

re: #134 albusteve

the citizens pay for standardized education, and it’s worked fairly well before…whether it’s appropriate or not is the students/parents decision…it’s not unreasonable to expect a child to stay in school and do the best they can til they drop out

They wouldn’t have to drop out entirely if some kind of vocational alterative was available in one of the trades through public schooling (plumbing, gas, electrical, etc).

140 Summer Seale  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:38:02am

Just some awesome cloud-based news for all of you techies out there:

lifehacker.com!5786686/amazon-cloud-drive-stores-5-gb-of-your-stuff-online-and-streams-your-music-back-to-you

Amazon launched a cloud-based storage service today. They give you 5 GB free with your Amazon account and you can stream from it over the web or even your android with an app. Also, if you buy one album, they upgrade you to 20 GB.

Pretty awesome. Watch the sparks fly at Apple over it though. :)

141 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:38:27am

re: #131 prononymous

I think the main problem we have with education in this country is the very low emphasis put on it. Athletes, performers, those who make lots of money regardless of how they make it, all are considered highly successful. A PhD researcher into endocrinology? Not considered all that successful or relevant. And a climatologist? Actively ridiculed and called a fraud by one of the major political parties.

So on the one hand you have the culture of materialism celebrating someone who makes a lot of money without regard to whether or not what that person is doing is actually a benefit to others, and on the other you have a highly aggressive anti-scientific streak in our culture.

Capitalism has one very negative effect, and that’s to put a veil of respectability over behaviors that are simply terrible, just because they result in large amounts of money.

142 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:38:31am

re: #137 RogueOne

I’m not buying that only 600 students were expelled in chicago during a 12 year time span. That’s not passing the smell test. According to the feds the expulsion rate for everyone is close to 9%:

[Link: nces.ed.gov…]

and this graph:
Image: sFig3.2.gif

and NAACP head Ben Jealous agrees:
(video)
[Link: www.thegrio.com…]

A near 10% expulsion rate doesn’t pass a smell test either.

143 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:39:44am

re: #139 wozzablog

They wouldn’t have to drop out entirely if some kind of vocational alterative was available in one of the trades through public schooling (plumbing, gas, electrical, etc).

or if each student had his own teacher, or, or…

144 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:40:07am

re: #134 albusteve

Well, I expect schools to do as much as they can to retain and sufficiently educate students right till adulthood. And I expect students/parents to make a very significant effort towards that education as well.

But that doesn’t mean that we have to have a totally standardized, linear path from entry till exit from public education. Many successful education systems don’t adhere to such an idea.

145 kirkspencer  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:40:17am

re: #122 wozzablog

If scores are all that matter to obtain money - rather than pupil improvement, then obviously schools will jettison the students holding their scores back.

The system needs changing. More emphasis needs to be placed on dragging kids up from F to C than on how many A’s there are.

Or they’ll play other slippery games. At this time in Georgia, one of the evaluation tools for high schools is the average SAT score. It occurred to a few (most) administrations that there was an easy way to tweak the score: identify a split point (or even two specific lists of students) and encourage one set to take the SAT and the other the ACT.

146 garhighway  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:40:22am

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

Anything’s possible.

147 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:40:57am

re: #142 wozzablog

A near 10% expulsion rate doesn’t pass a smell test either.

who cares….it’s the drop out rate that is jaw dropping

148 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:41:01am

re: #143 albusteve

or if each student had his own teacher, or, or…

As someone that was home-schooled for a while, I think it should be an option but it is a bad idea for most IMO.

149 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:41:25am

re: #137 RogueOne

Rogue, you really need to start reading your links.

You realize your first study is citing something that combines suspension and expulsion, right?

The expulsion rate?

The expulsion rates for all racial/ethnic groups in 2000 are below 1 percent, but American Indian/ Alaska Native students have a rate of expulsion that is second only to Black students.


And why are you saying Ben Jealous agrees, when what you cited from him doesn’t even talk about expulsion? It’s just talking about rates of graduation. There’s zero in there about expulsion. Did you read it?

150 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:42:10am

re: #146 garhighway

Anything’s possible.

Yes… it just doesn’t make sense to me for him to offer a document that is so evidently not an officially “sealed by the state” legal instrument. Something’s up.

151 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:42:27am

re: #142 wozzablog

A near 10% expulsion rate doesn’t pass a smell test either.

When inner-city schools are expelling minorities at an alarming rate it’s going to drag the numbers down. If you’re saying they’re expelling way too many students then we’re in agreement and I think you’re earlier point about expelling kids to make their overall numbers look better is dead on.

152 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:42:28am

re: #141 Obdicut

Agreed.

153 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:43:16am

re: #143 albusteve

or if each student had his own teacher, or, or…

My old highschool had a tie in with a national electronics and telecoms firm post-16. Instead of A-Levels they could study for a year at the same school in a curriculum devised by the employer and delivered on our site.

It’s far from impossible - if employers complain of a “skills gap” (and they are) - it makes perfect sense.

154 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:45:39am

re: #149 Obdicut

Rogue, you really need to start reading your links.

You realize your first study is citing something that combines suspension and expulsion, right?

The expulsion rate?

good point.


And why are you saying Ben Jealous agrees, when what you cited from him doesn’t even talk about expulsion? It’s just talking about rates of graduation. There’s zero in there about expulsion. Did you read it?

In his example students that are suspended for more than 2 weeks have to make up the entire year. Technically they aren’t expelled but it equates to the same thing.

155 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:45:48am

re: #151 RogueOne

When inner-city schools are expelling minorities at an alarming rate it’s going to drag the numbers down. If you’re saying they’re expelling way too many students then we’re in agreement and I think you’re earlier point about expelling kids to make their overall numbers look better is dead on.

If the figures conflate suspension and expulsion - it may be closer to the mark, but a single school expelling permanently 10% of their pupils in one year does not seem at all practicable.

156 Flounder  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:46:14am

I’m gonna post and run, sorry. About the failure of our schools. I don’t think it is the failure of the schools, or teachers (they didn’t get a masters degree cuz its cheap or not like kids) but the failure of the family structure. Kids need a mom and dad, love, encouragement, someone who gives a shit. We need to encourage that in our society.

157 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:47:33am

The classification of so many black students as functionally retarded or learning disabled is an incredible crock of shit, too. That’s one of the larger pieces of institutional racism we’ve got going, and that one actually began with ‘liberals’, if anyone cares to assign blame.

Basically, we’re combing emotional problems that interfere with learning with actual mental deficits in assigning these labels to the kids. It started out with a well-meaning desire to tack kids with learning disabilities and give them the help they need, but we’re not doing that. Instead, we’re lumping together a smart kid who has panic attacks when it comes time to learn stuff because he thinks of himself as really stupid in together with a kid with actual dyslexia or other learning disabilities.

158 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:48:40am

re: #156 Shropshire_Slasher

I don’t think it has anything to do with family structure. I think it has much to do with parents that don’t pay attention to their kids, spend time with their kids giving a shit about their education, etc.

159 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:48:46am

re: #154 RogueOne

It’s not functionally the same thing at all, since they repeat the year at the same school. It is a huge problem, and suspension is about the worst goddamn possible punishment for a kid who’s not engaged in school. I mean, can you think of a stupider penalty for someone who doesn’t like school, then to suspend them? It’s like a joke.

160 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:50:12am

re: #158 prononymous

I think it has much to do with parents that don’t pay attention to their kids, spend time with their kids giving a shit about their education, etc.

In other words ,,, family structure!

161 Flounder  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:50:38am

re: #160 sattv4u2

Thankyou!!

162 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:51:02am

re: #160 sattv4u2

I think it has much to do with parents that don’t pay attention to their kids, spend time with their kids giving a shit about their education, etc.

In other words ,,, family structure!

Don’t confuse the issue… brain drain.

163 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:51:35am

re: #157 Obdicut

The classification of so many black students as functionally retarded or learning disabled is an incredible crock of shit, too. That’s one of the larger pieces of institutional racism we’ve got going, and that one actually began with ‘liberals’, if anyone cares to assign blame.

Basically, we’re combing emotional problems that interfere with learning with actual mental deficits in assigning these labels to the kids. It started out with a well-meaning desire to tack kids with learning disabilities and give them the help they need, but we’re not doing that. Instead, we’re lumping together a smart kid who has panic attacks when it comes time to learn stuff because he thinks of himself as really stupid in together with a kid with actual dyslexia or other learning disabilities.

Another good point. I’m not trying to assign blame to any one group, there’s plenty of blame to go around for everyone involved, but when urban schools stand up and pat themselves on the back when their graduation rate jumps up to 60%…I’m at a loss for words on how bad that is….

164 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:52:06am

re: #160 sattv4u2

In other words ,,, family structure!

Not really. Even single parents could give more of a shit about their children’s education. I have known plenty of great students from single parent homes. The parent just has to care and have the time.

165 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:52:11am

re: #161 Shropshire_Slasher

Thankyou!!

Perhaps (s)he just didn’t understand what you meant by the phrase

It’s not just a two parent, 2 1/4 children, a dog and a turtle, a two car garage, etc home

166 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:52:29am

re: #164 prononymous

Not really. Even single parents could give more of a shit about their children’s education. I have known plenty of great students from single parent homes. The parent just has to care and have the time.

See 165

167 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:52:33am

re: #160 sattv4u2

Those problems can exist in a family whatever its structure is. so no. Not family structure.

168 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:52:45am

re: #162 Walter L. Newton

Don’t confuse the issue… brain drain.

ouch! Whats that pain in my head!

169 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:53:25am

re: #167 Obdicut

Those problems can exist in a family whatever its structure is. so no. Not family structure.

Again, see 165

I know many single parent “families” that have better structure than some dual parent families

170 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:54:52am

re: #166 sattv4u2

See 165

I agree, that is a form of structure. But I got the feeling that it was about traditional family structure when he said:

Kids need a mom and dad

I don’t agree with that. A dad and a dad or mom and a mom was great for some people I know.

171 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:55:32am

re: #169 sattv4u2

Then you’re just using the phrase in a novel way disconnected from the common meaning.

172 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:56:34am

re: #169 sattv4u2

Again, see 165

I know many single parent “families” that have better structure than some dual parent families

I have a close friend (single mom) who managed to get her kid into an ivy league school. She worked a job she hated but one that allowed her to spend a good amount of time with her kid and started planning when he was in elementary school. She also gave up dating for an entire decade. She had higher priorities.

173 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:56:52am

re: #171 Obdicut

Then you’re just using the phrase in a novel way disconnected from the common meaning.

Here’s how I use the term “one of more adults in the household who gives two shits.” That work for you?

174 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:57:18am

re: #171 Obdicut

Then you’re just using the phrase in a novel way disconnected from the common meaning.

A) I didn’t “use the phrase”, another poster did and I was just clarifying what (s)he was getting at for yet another poster
B) “common meaning” changes over time.

In the flow of this conversation the meaning was very clear, at least to me

175 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:57:28am

re: #164 prononymous

Not really. Even single parents could give more of a shit about their children’s education. I have known plenty of great students from single parent homes. The parent just has to care and have the time.


There is a widow who lives across the street from me - she is working two jobs, even in socialist merry ol’ england, and just does not have the time if she wants to provide for them above the absolute minimum.
She does everything she can for them - but her eldest child is acting out and has severe problems at school - even was sent to boarding school at the taxpayer expsense because it was cheaper than sending him to a special unit for troubled children.
He’s had every opportunity at home, in his local school and in a school i would have killed to have gone to.

Some children are just flat out troubled whatever you do to help them.

176 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:58:05am

re: #173 Walter L. Newton

Here’s how I use the term “one of more adults in the household who gives two shits.” That work for you?


I can barely afford to give one shit!

177 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:58:49am

re: #173 Walter L. Newton

Here’s how I use the term “one of more adults in the household who gives two shits.” That work for you?

Sure. Nothing to do with structure. That works.

178 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:59:03am

re: #174 sattv4u2

Can you define what you mean by family structure, then?

179 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 5:59:04am

re: #175 wozzablog

My Sis-N-Law has a good mom and dad at home and yet she lives with me. Some kids don’t know how well they have it.

180 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:00:56am

re: #178 Obdicut

Can you define what you mean by family structure, then?

Yes

Guidlines, routine, rules, heirarchy (where the or an adult is “in charge”, not some 12 year old calling the shots as to when bedtime is, how much TV/ Video games are watcher per day, what the menu is ((junk food vs a balanced diet)))

181 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:00:56am

My dad went on a date last night. Dinner and the Symphony with a lady.

He went out with the lady that my mom suggested that he date.

So. Freakin’. Sweet.

182 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:01:26am

re: #181 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My dad went on a date last night. Dinner and the Symphony with a lady.

He went out with the lady that my mom suggested that he date.

So. Freakin’. Sweet.

WAY cool!!!

183 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:01:34am

re: #159 Obdicut

It’s not functionally the same thing at all, since they repeat the year at the same school. It is a huge problem, and suspension is about the worst goddamn possible punishment for a kid who’s not engaged in school. I mean, can you think of a stupider penalty for someone who doesn’t like school, then to suspend them? It’s like a joke.

Is suspension/expulsion intended to correct the student, or intended to protect the other students and the school by removing the irritant?

184 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:02:06am

re: #183 oaktree

Is suspension/expulsion intended to correct the student, or intended to protect the other students and the school by removing the irritant?

Good point

185 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:02:20am

Daytime stuff. BBL

186 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:03:46am

re: #183 oaktree

Expulsion is for the benefit of other students. Suspension can’t rationally be for that, given that the student will eventually be back. For it to make sense, you’ve got to imagine the student will improve their behavior during their absence.

187 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:06:46am

re: #186 Obdicut

Expulsion is for the benefit of other students. Suspension can’t rationally be for that, given that the student will eventually be back. For it to make sense, you’ve got to imagine the student will improve their behavior during their absence.

what?….kids can’t change their attitude?….seems to me you have to impose a situation on them so they have that choice

188 laZardo  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:10:36am

Speaking of science, this is what happens when you let religion control the agenda.

189 Sionainn  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:10:57am

re: #157 Obdicut

The classification of so many black students as functionally retarded or learning disabled is an incredible crock of shit, too. That’s one of the larger pieces of institutional racism we’ve got going, and that one actually began with ‘liberals’, if anyone cares to assign blame.

Basically, we’re combing emotional problems that interfere with learning with actual mental deficits in assigning these labels to the kids. It started out with a well-meaning desire to tack kids with learning disabilities and give them the help they need, but we’re not doing that. Instead, we’re lumping together a smart kid who has panic attacks when it comes time to learn stuff because he thinks of himself as really stupid in together with a kid with actual dyslexia or other learning disabilities.

In my school district, it is quite the ordeal to get a student tested for special services and damn near impossible if the student is ESL.

190 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:12:27am

re: #186 Obdicut

Expulsion is for the benefit of other students. Suspension can’t rationally be for that, given that the student will eventually be back. For it to make sense, you’ve got to imagine the student will improve their behavior during their absence.

Or possibly suspension is just part of procedure; e.g. you suspend for Offense A (first time) and if repeated expulsion is considered.

Also, would suspension possibly be assuming that there is some parental/guardian input to the child’s behavior? And that a suspension would be a wake-up call to the child’s non-school authority that something serious is going on?

A child’s education is not happening in a vacuum, so I expect that there is some cross-expectations between school and parents/guardians that are not being upheld in some circumstances.

And I concur that expulsion/suspension is not beneficial for a problem child. It’s the school removing the problem from the environment, not attempting to deal with it. Now, should the school be responsible for correcting the behavioral issues? That would depend on how one defines the social contract between parents and school, and the accompanying expectations.

191 Sionainn  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:14:27am

re: #190 oaktree

Or possibly suspension is just part of procedure; e.g. you suspend for Offense A (first time) and if repeated expulsion is considered.

Also, would suspension possibly be assuming that there is some parental/guardian input to the child’s behavior? And that a suspension would be a wake-up call to the child’s non-school authority that something serious is going on?

A child’s education is not happening in a vacuum, so I expect that there is some cross-expectations between school and parents/guardians that are not being upheld in some circumstances.

And I concur that expulsion/suspension is not beneficial for a problem child. It’s the school removing the problem from the environment, not attempting to deal with it. Now, should the school be responsible for correcting the behavioral issues? That would depend on how one defines the social contract between parents and school, and the accompanying expectations.

I think some schools have figured out that suspension isn’t working because the kid’s parents don’t back it up with some sort of consequence as well. A lot of schools have gone to in-school suspension, putting them in a room with all of their work and a teacher and keeping them away from the rest of the students.

192 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:14:43am

re: #190 oaktree

Or possibly suspension is just part of procedure; e.g. you suspend for Offense A (first time) and if repeated expulsion is considered.

But to Obdicuts earlier (correct) point, repeated suspensions and/ or expulsion to a student that doesn’t give a shit about being there anyway who has a parent(s) that don’t pay attention/ care. To what point then?

193 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:17:20am

re: #180 sattv4u2

Yes

Guidlines, routine, rules, heirarchy (where the or an adult is “in charge”, not some 12 year old calling the shots as to when bedtime is, how much TV/ Video games are watcher per day, what the menu is ((junk food vs a balanced diet)))

I would agree that a good routine and good habits that can form in the appropriate environment are highly conducive to educational success. I feel that the guidelines, rules, and hierarchy of certain families is unnecessary. Useful, but not necessary. Of course I was raised by hippies so that might have something to do with it, lol.

194 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:21:04am

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it to my last breath

VOCATIONAL/ TRADE school should be an option after grammar school. Many of these “trouble” kids just have no interest in “traditional” subjects. Whats a torubled kid give two rats asses French, or biology,

Let them enroll in a school that has auto mechanics, auto body, electronics, carpentry

Yes, they would still have to take (and pass) basic math and English, but the rest of their studies are to prepare them for a career

195 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:21:56am

re: #192 sattv4u2

Or possibly suspension is just part of procedure; e.g. you suspend for Offense A (first time) and if repeated expulsion is considered.

But to Obdicuts earlier (correct) point, repeated suspensions and/ or expulsion to a student that doesn’t give a shit about being there anyway who has a parent(s) that don’t pay attention/ care. To what point then?

Off to trade school, manual/unskilled labor, or crime.

196 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:23:45am

re: #188 laZardo

Speaking of science, this is what happens when you let religion control the agenda.

And it’s only going to get worse the longer that the wingnuts and religious fanatics keep getting elected to higher office. The Texas SBOE doesn’t exist in a vacuum. They’re elected officials, so people are falling for this shit and think it needs to be taught, or they don’t pay attention and just pull the lever for whoever has the “correct” letter after their name.

197 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:24:14am

re: #194 sattv4u2

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it to my last breath

VOCATIONAL/ TRADE school should be an option after grammar school. Many of these “trouble” kids just have no interest in “traditional” subjects. Whats a torubled kid give two rats asses French, or biology,

Let them enroll in a school that has auto mechanics, auto body, electronics, carpentry

Yes, they would still have to take (and pass) basic math and English, but the rest of their studies are to prepare them for a career

I very much agree with this sentiment, as I stated earlier. Fitting everyone into the same box is a mistake, IMO. Not everyone is going to have the patience or aptitude for calculus, for example. The same student might turn out to be a really amazing artist or welder, for example.

198 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:26:12am

Off to work. Y’all have fun.

199 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:26:28am

re: #197 prononymous

I very much agree with this sentiment, as I stated earlier. Fitting everyone into the same box is a mistake, IMO. Not everyone is going to have the patience or aptitude for calculus, for example. The same student might turn out to be a really amazing artist or welder, for example.

Don’t know how old you are, but when I was a child getting out of grammar school that was an option (trade school or traditional high school)

Many kids I went to grammar school with went the trade school route. Some of those were TERRIBLE grammar school students (mostly, they just didn’t give a crap about the subject matter) Those same kids flourished at “The Voc” (as it was called in my town)

200 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:27:28am

re: #194 sattv4u2

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it to my last breath

VOCATIONAL/ TRADE school should be an option after grammar school. Many of these “trouble” kids just have no interest in “traditional” subjects. Whats a torubled kid give two rats asses French, or biology,

Let them enroll in a school that has auto mechanics, auto body, electronics, carpentry

Yes, they would still have to take (and pass) basic math and English, but the rest of their studies are to prepare them for a career

My high school offered a full vocational program after sophomore year with stuff like cosmetology (i.e., beauty school), auto shop, HVAC, and other trades. Starting as a junior, students would spend a half day in traditional school with math, science, etc. on a simpler track than the kids prepping for college, then after lunch, they’d spend the afternoon in their chosen trade. The idea was that by the time you graduated, you’d be certified in whatever and could go straight to work.

I graduated in 1991, so I’d imagine that programs like that still exist today.

201 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:28:48am

re: #192 sattv4u2

Or possibly suspension is just part of procedure; e.g. you suspend for Offense A (first time) and if repeated expulsion is considered.

But to Obdicuts earlier (correct) point, repeated suspensions and/ or expulsion to a student that doesn’t give a shit about being there anyway who has a parent(s) that don’t pay attention/ care. To what point then?

It’s Bush’s fault.

202 Pie-onist Overlord  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:29:37am

re: #200 Lidane

My high school offered a full vocational program after sophomore year with stuff like cosmetology (i.e., beauty school), auto shop, HVAC, and other trades. Starting as a junior, students would spend a half day in traditional school with math, science, etc. on a simpler track than the kids prepping for college, then after lunch, they’d spend the afternoon in their chosen trade. The idea was that by the time you graduated, you’d be certified in whatever and could go straight to work.

I graduated in 1991, so I’d imagine that programs like that still exist today.

Most trades today require a technical expertise that was not necessary in previous generations. Someone attending a trade or vocation school might need more math training than someone in a liberal arts college prep program.

203 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:30:08am

re: #201 Walter L. Newton

It’s Bush’s fault.

You sure? I was thinking that someone would blame George Soros instead.

204 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:30:50am

re: #188 laZardo

Speaking of science, this is what happens when you let religion control the agenda.

Yeah!
We r the smartiest!

205 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:31:25am

re: #201 Walter L. Newton

It’s Bush’s fault.

Everything evil in the world is the result of George Bush.

206 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:31:32am

re: #203 Lidane

You sure? I was thinking that someone would blame George Soros instead.

Oh hell… the common line is to blame anyone except the parent(s) and the kids… so, take your pick. Fine with me.

207 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:31:51am

re: #203 Lidane

You sure? I was thinking that someone would blame George Soros instead.

Nahhh

It’s already been established that Bush was the “dummy” in school

208 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:33:00am

re: #207 sattv4u2

Nahhh

It’s already been established that Bush was the “dummy” in school

That’s why he was kicked out of the military!
//

209 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:33:44am

Heh.
Political victimization: It ain’t just the libs.

210 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:34:18am

re: #202 Alouette

Most trades today require a technical expertise that was not necessary in previous generations. Someone attending a trade or vocation school might need more math training than someone in a liberal arts college prep program.

Well, true. In fairness, it HAS been twenty years since I’d even thought about my school’s vocational tracks.

I’m all for giving kids options. If they know that college is out for them and all they want is to get a job and get out of the shitty situation they’re in, I’m all for trade/vocational school starting in 9th grade so they can learn something hands-on and be able to go straight to work once they graduate. It’s far better to do that than to try and force every kid to follow the same tracks.

211 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:34:19am

Not a great story for nervous flyers… But who would shoot at an airliner?
(CNN) — A US Airways 737 pilot in Charlotte, North Carolina, discovered a small hole in the exterior of his plane’s fuselage Monday, prompting the airline to take the plane out of service and for the FBI to begin an investigation.

“During a pre-flight inspection, one of our captains noticed a small hole in the fuselage,” said US Airways spokeswoman Valerie Wunder.

212 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:34:46am

I missed the speech last night. How did the lizards like it?

213 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:35:14am

re: #205 NJDhockeyfan

Everything evil in the world is the result of George Bush.

Jusin Bieber is Bush’s fault? That seems unfair!

214 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:35:17am

re: #207 sattv4u2

Nahhh

It’s already been established that Bush was the “dummy” in school

But everything these days can be blamed on George Soros. That’s what I keep seeing, anyhow. Dubya is old news. He’s largely disappeared from the public eye.

215 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:35:59am

re: #212 NJDhockeyfan

I missed the speech last night. How did the lizards like it?

Sounded like Bush. (there, I managed to insult the left, by insulting the right).

216 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:36:28am

re: #214 Lidane

But everything these days can be blamed on George Soros. That’s what I keep seeing, anyhow. Dubya is old news. He’s largely disappeared from the public eye.

He was on the radio last night, giving a speech about Libya. Didn’t you hear it?

217 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:36:59am

re: #213 RogueOne

Jusin Bieber is Bush’s fault? That seems unfair!

Nope. Justin Bieber can be blamed on the Bilderberg Group, the international banking cabal, and the trilateral commission with their black helicopters.

218 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:37:34am

re: #217 Lidane

Nope. Justin Bieber can be blamed on the Bilderberg Group, the international banking cabal, and the trilateral commission with their black helicopters.

I heard that on Beck.

219 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:37:40am

re: #217 Lidane

Nope. Justin Bieber can be blamed on the Bilderberg Group, the international banking cabal, and the trilateral commission with their black helicopters.

I knew it had to be a plot

220 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:37:41am

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

He was on the radio last night, giving a speech about Libya. Didn’t you hear it?

I was too busy working on interviews for my Marketing Research class, so no. Didn’t hear it. It didn’t even pop up on my radar.

221 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:37:49am

re: #214 Lidane

Like all good ex Presidents should, apart from philanthropy or perhaps the occasional public service commercial.

222 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:38:11am

re: #218 Varek Raith

I heard that on Beck.

Like everything else, he stole it from Alex Jones. Heh.

223 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:38:12am

re: #214 Lidane

But everything these days can be blamed on George Soros. That’s what I keep seeing, anyhow. Dubya is old news. He’s largely disappeared from the public eye.

Well it is being blamed on unions on a daily basis. Of course all unions swear allegiance to Soros…

224 laZardo  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:38:20am

re: #217 Lidane

Nope. Justin Bieber can be blamed on the Bilderberg Group, the international banking cabal, and the trilateral commission with their black helicopters.

Ke$ha’s a Jewish Zionist plot. Ever notice the $ in her stage name?

/

225 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:38:51am

re: #220 Lidane

I was too busy working on interviews for my Marketing Research class, so no. Didn’t hear it. It didn’t even pop up on my radar.

Marketing research?
Simple.
Find sucker.
Sell sucker overpriced junk.
PROFIT.

226 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:39:27am

re: #212 NJDhockeyfan

I missed the speech last night. How did the lizards like it?

It doesn’t feel like he really has his heart in it. This whole episode has a ‘90’s balkans feel to it.

227 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:40:18am

re: #225 Varek Raith

Marketing research?
Simple.
Find sucker.
Sell sucker overpriced junk.
PROFIT.

You forgot the last step…

Ridicule the rich for making profit. (I’m killing myself).

228 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:40:44am

re: #225 Varek Raith

Marketing research?
Simple.
Find sucker.
Sell sucker overpriced junk.
PROFIT.

True. But I have to do both qualitative and quantitative research to prove that, and to get a grade. Hehe.

229 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:41:10am

re: #226 RogueOne

It doesn’t feel like he really has his heart in it. This whole episode has a ‘90’s balkans feel to it.

Just looking around I found an article on MSNBC fact checking last night’s speech.

How Obama’s Libya claims fit the facts

230 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:41:11am

re: #227 Walter L. Newton

Why would the rich ridicule themselves?

231 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:41:34am

Happy Birthday, everyone.

232 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:43:28am

re: #231 darthstar

Happy Birthday, everyone.

Where’s my gifts???

233 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:43:31am

re: #231 darthstar

Happy Birthday, everyone.

Will there be cake?

234 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:43:59am

re: #230 prononymous

Why would the rich ridicule themselves?

Because they can afford too!

235 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:44:07am

re: #229 NJDhockeyfan

Just looking around I found an article on MSNBC fact checking last night’s speech.

How Obama’s Libya claims fit the facts

I only rolled my eyes a couple of times…”I wouldn’t allow that to happen!” (Puh-lease, we were talked into it by the euro’s) and the part where he said having NATO take over would lower our costs….

236 Ericus58  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:44:10am

re: #188 laZardo

Speaking of science, this is what happens when you let religion control the agenda.

I’m sorry, but that’s not a factual interpretation of the Royal Society’s study:

“However the report points out that a growing volume of research publications does not necessarily mean in increase in quality.

One key indicator of the value of any research is the number of times it is quoted by other scientists in their work.

Although China has risen in the “citation” rankings, its performance on this measure lags behind its investment and publication rate.

“It will take some time for the absolute output of emerging nations to challenge the rate at which this research is referenced by the international scientific community.”

The UK’s scientific papers are still the second most-cited in the world, after the US.

Dr Cong Cao, associate professor at Nottingham University’s School of Contemporary Chinese Studies, agrees with the assessment that the quantity of China’s science is yet not matched by its quality.”

237 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:45:08am

re: #231 darthstar

Happy Birthday, everyone.

Hippo birdie two ewe!

Hehe.

238 laZardo  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:46:06am

re: #236 Ericus58

It at least shows that China is putting an actual effort into it, unlike the religious anti-intellectualism taking hold across America.

239 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:46:23am

re: #237 Lidane

Hippo birdie two ewe!

Hehe.

Alright, you’ve had enough beer.
/

240 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:47:44am

re: #237 Lidane

Hippo birdie two ewe!

Hehe.

Thank you…you remembered! I always wish a happy birthday to everyone on mine, since it’s a special day and should be enjoyed by everyone. :)

241 laZardo  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:48:47am

re: #229 NJDhockeyfan

THE FACTS: Obama did not wait to make that case to Congress, despite his past statements that presidents should get congressional authorization before taking the country to war, absent a threat to the nation that cannot wait.

Oh, that’s cunning of them. They wouldn’t have authorized the action just to spite him.

242 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:48:49am

re: #240 darthstar

Thank you…you remembered! I always wish a happy birthday to everyone on mine, since it’s a special day and should be enjoyed by everyone. :)

You’re an odd one.
/
Happy birthday!

243 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:49:00am

re: #231 darthstar

Happy Birthday, everyone.

Happy Birthday to you too! :D

244 laZardo  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:49:43am

re: #240 darthstar

Thank you…you remembered! I always wish a happy birthday to everyone on mine, since it’s a special day and should be enjoyed by everyone. :)

And many more~

245 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:50:10am

re: #239 Varek Raith

Alright, you’ve had enough beer.
/

Nope. Just a lack of sleep. If I got four hours last night, it’ll be a damn miracle.

246 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:50:10am

re: #235 RogueOne

I only rolled my eyes a couple of times…”I wouldn’t allow that to happen!” (Puh-lease, we were talked into it by the euro’s) and the part where he said having NATO take over would lower our costs…

Did he really blame George Bush for something? My radio mentioned it.

247 Ericus58  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:51:08am

re: #238 laZardo

It at least shows that China is putting an actual effort into it, unlike the religious anti-intellectualism taking hold across America.

No.
The effort that China is putting forth is producing results - the quality and importance of those results though are yet to be seen or overtake those by the U.S./Europe/etc.

248 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:51:42am

re: #241 laZardo

Oh, that’s cunning of them. They wouldn’t have authorized the action just to spite him.

I disagree, he would have been able to get authorization. I think he’s well within his rights as president/CiC on this one but the politically smart move would have been to at least go to the senate/congressional leadership and get a verbal consent if nothing else.

249 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:52:23am

re: #242 Varek Raith

You’re an odd one.
/
Happy birthday!

Heh…my wife likes me this way. I’m a little goofy, but laughter > tears 99.9% of the time in our opinions.

250 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:53:03am

re: #246 NJDhockeyfan

Did he really blame George Bush for something? My radio mentioned it.

Your radio also says he was born in Kenya.

251 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:53:19am

re: #249 darthstar

Heh…my wife likes me this way. I’m a little goofy, but laughter > tears 99.9% of the time in our opinions.

That is true.
By the way, watch out for those government mind control slugs.
They’re tricky.

252 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:53:30am

re: #246 NJDhockeyfan

Did he really blame George Bush for something? My radio mentioned it.

People say that whenever he mentions that we have a “coalition” with us. IMO, you have to do too much reading between the lines on his speech last night to come to that conclusion. He doesn’t want the US to look like the face of this action so it makes sense that he keeps mentioning it.

253 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:53:39am

re: #250 darthstar

Your radio also says he was born in Kenya.

No it doesn’t.

254 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:53:59am

re: #248 RogueOne

I disagree, he would have been able to get authorization. I think he’s well within his rights as president/CiC on this one but the politically smart move would have been to at least go to the senate/congressional leadership and get a verbal consent if nothing else.

he had to wait for the polls….stupid

255 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:55:11am

re: #251 Varek Raith

That is true.
By the way, watch out for those government mind control slugs.
They’re tricky.

If Donalt Sutherland ever points at me ans screeches, I’ll reconsider turning down the rapture last week.

256 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:56:45am

re: #254 albusteve

he had to wait for the polls…stupid

I think if he had gotten out in front of this the poll numbers would look better. By trying to pretend that the US isn’t doing 90% of the work he’s killed his public support. I was trying to remember last night any time in my life where a president has used force against another country and didn’t immediately get on TV and explain his reasoning. I can’t think of anyone going back as far as Carter.

257 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:58:32am

re: #256 RogueOne

I think if he had gotten out in front of this the poll numbers would look better. By trying to pretend that the US isn’t doing 90% of the work he’s killed his public support. I was trying to remember last night any time in my life where a president has used force against another country and didn’t immediately get on TV and explain his reasoning. I can’t think of anyone going back as far as Carter.

Carter used force… who… against Israel?

258 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:58:50am

Hey everyone!

Just here for a short time.

I wanted to thank everyone for the updings and more importantly the tweets and shares on facebook.

Please click and click again and sign the petition.

I STAND WITH PLANNED PARENTHOOD.

PP is planning their rally in DC on Thursday, April 7th. Since I can’t be there, I am trying to spread the word as much as possible.

259 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:58:52am

re: #252 RogueOne

He could have picked a better word, like “Committee” or “Alliance” or “Team”…even an “International Roster” but “Coalition” is Bush’s term so he’s not allowed to use it. //

Seriously, he did what he needed to do. Fuck his critics on this issue.

260 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:58:55am

re: #257 Walter L. Newton

Carter used force… who… against Israel?

No

The killer rabbit!

261 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:59:07am

How is everyone?

262 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 6:59:19am

re: #256 RogueOne

I think if he had gotten out in front of this the poll numbers would look better. By trying to pretend that the US isn’t doing 90% of the work he’s killed his public support. I was trying to remember last night any time in my life where a president has used force against another country and didn’t immediately get on TV and explain his reasoning. I can’t think of anyone going back as far as Carter.

I’m saying he waited til the polls approved of intervention and then he acted….he follows rather than leads

263 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:00:15am

Kucinich: “Obama Doctrine” Like Bush Doctrine; Compares Libya To Iraq

“This is a new Obama doctrine, which is that you act on threats. Remember, that’s what George Bush did. He said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. So here we are, $3 trillion later for the long term cost of the war, deaths of thousands of troops, deaths to millions of Iraqis, civilians died as a result of the conflict, and we’ve got to be careful about slipping into these wars,” Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OHIO) told MSNBC after Obama’s speech.

Barack Obama is the new George Bush?

264 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:00:46am

re: #260 sattv4u2

No

The killer rabbit!

No, he escaped from the rabbit!

265 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:01:06am

re: #240 darthstar

Thank you…you remembered! I always wish a happy birthday to everyone on mine, since it’s a special day and should be enjoyed by everyone. :)

Happy Birthday!!!!!

266 laZardo  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:01:21am

re: #263 NJDhockeyfan

Kucinich: “Obama Doctrine” Like Bush Doctrine; Compares Libya To Iraq

Barack Obama is the new George Bush?


BUSHES THURRD TURRRM!

/ :|

267 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:01:24am

re: #257 Walter L. Newton

Carter used force… who… against Israel?

HA! That’s not what I meant, my memory before carter is a little fuzzy, I can’t think of one military action since 1976 where the president didn’t get his message/reasoning out immediately. The last time we attacked Libya Reagan was on tv as soon as the bombs stopped dropping.

268 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:01:46am

re: #263 NJDhockeyfan

Kucinich: “Obama Doctrine” Like Bush Doctrine; Compares Libya To Iraq

Barack Obama is the new George Bush?

what a bonehead…that guy needs to be bitchslapped

269 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:02:46am

My MSNBC RSS feed just tossed this out. Since we were discussing schooling and vocational school rather than college prep it’s sorta on topic.

MSNBC Video

It’s an approach that could be considered for addressing life in your late teens and early 20s.

270 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:03:04am

re: #261 ggt

How is everyone?

Tired. Annoyed, since my Marketing partner only emailed our prof’s feedback to our interview protocol yesterday, and the preliminary round of interviews had to be done by today. Last night I edited the questions, sent them to my partner for his feedback, never heard back from him, and did my interviews with what I had anyway. Now I’m stuck with a bunch of shorthand notes that are gibberish to everyone but me and I have to scramble to make them make sense in class today.

I have a feeling I’m going to be winging it today. Then I’ll fall back into bed for a few hours, get up, and start work on my Finance assignments. *sigh*

271 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:03:24am

Obama doesn’t seem comfortable with the expression of power.

Not a good trait in a Commander-in-Chief.

He always seems like he is trying to lead a team of ball players. I don’t mean to imply that he thinks it is all a game. I just think he has a different take on things than other POTUS’s.

Brave New World.

272 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:03:33am

re: #267 RogueOne

HA! That’s not what I meant, my memory before carter is a little fuzzy, I can’t think of one military action since 1976 where the president didn’t get his message/reasoning out immediately. The last time we attacked Libya Reagan was on tv as soon as the bombs stopped dropping.

Wasn’t the failed hostage rescue attempt in Iran under Carter’s administration?

273 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:03:38am

re: #267 RogueOne

HA! That’s not what I meant, my memory before carter is a little fuzzy, I can’t think of one military action since 1976 where the president didn’t get his message/reasoning out immediately. The last time we attacked Libya Reagan was on tv as soon as the bombs stopped dropping.

Er… the shock troops sent to Madison?

274 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:03:50am

re: #263 NJDhockeyfan

Kucinich: “Obama Doctrine” Like Bush Doctrine; Compares Libya To Iraq

Barack Obama is the new George Bush?

For the far left, yes. They’ve been calling him Dubya Jr. ever since he didn’t immediately close Gitmo.

275 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:04:48am

re: #270 Lidane

Tired. Annoyed, since my Marketing partner only emailed our prof’s feedback to our interview protocol yesterday, and the preliminary round of interviews had to be done by today. Last night I edited the questions, sent them to my partner for his feedback, never heard back from him, and did my interviews with what I had anyway. Now I’m stuck with a bunch of shorthand notes that are gibberish to everyone but me and I have to scramble to make them make sense in class today.

I have a feeling I’m going to be winging it today. Then I’ll fall back into bed for a few hours, get up, and start work on my Finance assignments. *sigh*

Winging is part of the job :)

276 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:04:49am

re: #272 oaktree

Wasn’t the failed hostage rescue attempt in Iran under Carter’s administration?

Yes. I don’t remember Carter being extra quick to get on tv and say “we screwed the pooch on this one” but I wouldn’t classify it as an attack on a foreign government.

277 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:05:52am

re: #267 RogueOne

HA! That’s not what I meant, my memory before carter is a little fuzzy, I can’t think of one military action since 1976 where the president didn’t get his message/reasoning out immediately. The last time we attacked Libya Reagan was on tv as soon as the bombs stopped dropping.

Reagan responded to the Beirut embassy bombing by pulling the US out. Today the term is “cut-n-run”…

278 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:06:16am

re: #272 oaktree

Wasn’t the failed hostage rescue attempt in Iran under Carter’s administration?

Then Reagan came into office and Iran cowed.

Walk softly and carry a big stick, unfortunatly, some cultures only respect the stick.

279 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:06:26am

re: #273 Walter L. Newton

Er… the shock troops sent to Madison?

Well, ,, Like Arizona, Wisconsin IS a “Rogue State”!!

280 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:06:45am

re: #275 ggt

Winging is part of the job :)

True, but half my grade is riding on the interviews and data and on the paper that we’ll eventually write with it all. I don’t mind winging it today, but seriously? I can’t get through this if my partner doesn’t step up and start doing more. I’m already stressed out about learning Dreamweaver from scratch and creating a website for a different class, and Finance has my teeth on edge. I don’t need to carry all the water in Marketing.

281 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:06:54am

re: #278 ggt

Then Reagan came into office and Iran cowed.

Walk softly and carry a big stick, unfortunatly, some cultures only respect the stick.

Reagan wasn’t going to do shit.

282 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:07:30am

re: #280 Lidane

True, but half my grade is riding on the interviews and data and on the paper that we’ll eventually write with it all. I don’t mind winging it today, but seriously? I can’t get through this if my partner doesn’t step up and start doing more. I’m already stressed out about learning Dreamweaver from scratch and creating a website for a different class, and Finance has my teeth on edge. I don’t need to carry all the water in Marketing.

talk to your doctor and take a bath, in whatever order you choose.

283 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:07:35am

re: #281 Varek Raith

Reagan wasn’t going to do shit.

Well, there were weapons sales to be made.

284 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:07:43am

re: #281 Varek Raith

Reagan wasn’t going to do shit.

doesn’t matter.

285 albusteve  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:08:25am

re: #277 darthstar

Reagan responded to the Beirut embassy bombing by pulling the US out. Today the term is “cut-n-run”…

yup, and the same opinion BO had with Iraq

286 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:09:13am

re: #282 ggt

talk to your doctor and take a bath, in whatever order you choose.

I think today, I’ll wing my way through class, take a nap, and fix myself a White Russian while I work on Finance. Maybe channeling my inner Dude will help. Heh.

287 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:09:22am

Carter took the “nuclear option” off the table. They would have toyed with him forever.

They see such such honesty as weakness.

Hopefully that will change with time and freedom.

288 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:09:31am

re: #283 darthstar

Well, there were weapons sales to be made.

Shhh!
That thar be seditious talk!
/

289 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:09:41am

re: #285 albusteve

yup, and the same opinion BO had with Iraq

Until he got elected, given that we’re still there.

290 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:09:55am

re: #281 Varek Raith

Reagan wasn’t going to do shit.

How do you know?

291 laZardo  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:10:09am

re: #278 ggt

Then Reagan came into office and Iran cowed.

Walk softly and carry a big stick, unfortunatly, some cultures only respect the stick.

I thought Carter worked out a deal for the release of the prisoners. The kicker was that the date and time of their release was a few minutes after Reagan’s inauguration.

292 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:10:29am

re: #289 Lidane

Until he got elected, given that we’re still there.

I really don’t think he understood the situation, then he was briefed.

293 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:11:37am

re: #291 laZardo

I thought Carter worked out a deal for the release of the prisoners. The kicker was that the date and time of their release was a few minutes after Reagan’s inauguration.

I’ve heard so many versions, you could be right.

I think it is strange they didn’t do the release on Carter’s watch. I don’t think it was a logistics question. It was staged that way for a reason.

who knows …

294 Ericus58  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:12:01am

re: #292 ggt

I really don’t think he understood the situation, then he was briefed.

I think that had some influence on his present actions concerning Iraq and Afghanistan.
I also think he was playing to his party members for votes.

295 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:13:03am

re: #277 darthstar

Reagan responded to the Beirut embassy bombing by pulling the US out. Today the term is “cut-n-run”…

Foreign Policy is such a chess board.

I’m glad I don’t have to sit in on the meetings and watch it all happen.

296 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:13:34am

re: #294 Ericus58

I think that had some influence on his present actions concerning Iraq and Afghanistan.
I also think he was playing to his party members for votes.

Of course he was.

It’s all about the votes.

297 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:16:41am

re: #289 Lidane

Until he got elected, given that we’re still there.

We are still in Germany & Japan. I blame Harry Truman.
//

298 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:18:00am

re: #297 NJDhockeyfan

We are still in Germany & Japan. I blame Harry Truman Neville Chamberlain.
//

ftfy

299 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:18:15am

re: #288 Varek Raith

Shhh!
That thar be seditious talk!
/

Well, he did invade Grenada…that was pretty brave.

300 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:18:44am

re: #297 NJDhockeyfan

Nope. Still the fault of George Soros. He’s the reason we’re doing anything in other countries at all, don’tcha know.

///

301 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:19:09am

re: #299 darthstar

Well, he did invade Grenada…that was pretty brave.

The Cuban commies didn’t like that, did they?

302 Ericus58  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:19:18am

Speaking about our troops being overseas…

My son was informed his assignment after commissioning and training will be reporting to the 18th Military Police Brigade.

Guess I’ll have a really good reason to experience the real deal Oktoberfest now ;)

303 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:19:28am

re: #298 sattv4u2

ftfy

Notice nobody ever asked President Chamberlain for his birth certificate.

304 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:19:31am

re: #277 darthstar

Reagan responded to the Beirut embassy bombing by pulling the US out. Today the term is “cut-n-run”…

I’ve been pointing that out for a decade. For 30 years we showed the world that if they punch us in the mouth hard enough we’ll bolt. That’s why I railed against the talk of pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

305 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:20:28am

re: #296 ggt

Of course he was.

It’s all about the votes.

I don’t think so… I really think that President Obama was intent on taking this country into a new direction, undermine if not destroy the industrial-military complex and free us all from the noose of exceptionalism.

But the GOP is intent on creating a One World Government, financed and advised by the filthy rich, with a moral commitment signed by GOD himself (yes, GOD is a male)… and bolstered by the comfort of the coming rapture, where all of you godless liberals will be left behind with your caves and fallen technology.

Praise the Lord.

306 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:20:37am

re: #298 sattv4u2

ftfy

I blame Churchill and Eisenhower for the ‘79 hostage crisis.
;)

307 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:20:43am

re: #303 darthstar

Notice nobody ever asked President Chamberlain for his birth certificate.

That’s because he was able to proclaim ‘Peace in our time’.

308 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:21:38am

Work to do! Everyone enjoy their day, especially Darth. Happy B-Day again.

309 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:21:51am

re: #303 darthstar

Notice nobody ever asked President Chamberlain for his birth certificate.

With that accent, it wasn’t necessary!

310 laZardo  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:21:56am

re: #299 darthstar

Well, he did invade Grenada…that was pretty brave.

On the other hand, PATCO.

311 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:22:33am

re: #305 Walter L. Newton

I don’t think so… I really think that President Obama was intent on taking this country into a new direction, undermine if not destroy the industrial-military complex and free us all from the noose of exceptionalism.

But the GOP is intent on creating a One World Government, financed and advised by the filthy rich, with a moral commitment signed by GOD himself (yes, GOD is a male)… and bolstered by the comfort of the coming rapture, where all of you godless liberals will be left behind with your caves and fallen technology.

Praise the Lord.

hmmm, I thought it was the Liberals who wanted a one-world government? Repubs want out of the UN and all … .

SDDS

312 Lidane  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:24:43am

re: #311 ggt

hmmm, I thought it was the Liberals who wanted a one-world government? Repubs want out of the UN and all …

SDDS

It’s the Bilderbergs, the bankers, and the trilateral commission. And it’s the shadow cabal that’s really running things in this country. Don’t you listen to Alex Jones and Luap Nor?

313 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:25:13am

And from the foreign desk…

(CNN) — In January, Bashar al-Assad sat down for a long interview with the Wall Street Journal. That was noteworthy in itself; the Syrian leader doesn’t spend much time with the Western media. He was in confident mood — saying that Syria would not succumb to the unrest then spreading in Tunisia and Egypt.

Oops…

(CNN) — The Syrian government resigned Tuesday amid an unusual wave of unrest that has roiled the nation, state TV reported.
President Bashar al-Assad accepted the resignations Tuesday, the same day that tens of thousands of Syrians poured onto the streets of Damascus to demonstrate in favor of the government.

cnn.com

cnn.com

314 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:26:23am

have a great day all!

Off to see my Mommy.

315 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:27:52am

re: #313 Walter L. Newton

And from the foreign desk…

Oops…

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

Shit happens.

316 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:29:10am

re: #315 NJDhockeyfan

Shit happens.

Image: shit-happens-shit-demotivational-poster-1214526411.jpg

317 Ericus58  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:29:16am

re: #312 Lidane

It’s the Bilderbergs, the bankers, and the trilateral commission. And it’s the shadow cabal that’s really running things in this country. Don’t you listen to Alex Jones and Luap Nor?

And the Colonel too!
Youtube Video

318 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:29:20am

And from the hippy-dippy weather desk…

It’s 21 degrees (f) here right now… TikkiBooBooMeowMeow is sitting on the day bed next to my desk in the office, curled up, he likes the electric space heater in this room. Sunny outside, but we are going to have off and on cloudy. And here’s the national weather outlook…

Youtube Video

319 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:30:12am

re: #313 Walter L. Newton

And from the foreign desk…


Oops…


[Link: www.cnn.com…]

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

Wasn’t the government resigning except for the dictator in the Mubarak playbook as well? In addition to the pro-dictator demonstrators being deployed.

320 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:31:12am

re: #319 oaktree

Wasn’t the government resigning except for the dictator in the Mubarak playbook as well? In addition to the pro-dictator demonstrators being deployed.

Calling Muslim Brotherhood.

321 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:32:31am

re: #319 oaktree

Wasn’t the government resigning except for the dictator in the Mubarak playbook as well? In addition to the pro-dictator demonstrators being deployed.

Maybe he doesn’t know it won’t likely work???

322 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:38:10am

Whoa… did the David Lynch short fry everyone’s brains… hello.. you in there McFly…

323 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:41:36am

My brain is fried for other reasons.

324 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:41:42am

Assad gets his thugs to rally in support of his regime as he does the dictatorial 2-step by resigning his cabinet and shuffling the deck chairs. Like other dictators and thugs in the region, he’s following dad’s advice - use the Hama rules and stay in power at any costs. With protests against his regime spreading, the show in Damascus is meant to divert attention from the protests and the real dissent against the regime. Assad figures that if he can show he’s got support media attention will look elsewhere while he reasserts power and authority against those protesting.

Employees and members of unions controlled by Assad’s Baath Party, which has been in power for nearly 50 years, said they had been ordered to attend the rallies, where there was a heavy presence of security police.

All gatherings and demonstrations are banned in Syria, other than those sponsored by the government.

It was expected that Assad would make announcements in the next 24 hours (well, 48 hours from yesterday), but no real change has been made to the emergency law that lets Assad do pretty much whatever he wants.

325 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:59:11am

Wingnut comedian calls Dem politician a c**t.

How fucking disgusting.

326 Ericus58  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:59:32am

He’s dead, Jim…..

Who set off the Neutron bomb in here?

327 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:59:41am

So Palpatine dissolves the senate. I think we can all guess what happens now.

328 Pie-onist Overlord  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 7:59:44am

re: #325 NJDhockeyfan

TFS

329 Ericus58  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:04:01am

re: #327 prononymous

So Palpatine dissolves the senate. I think we can all guess what happens now.

Ironic.
I just watched a History International show about Star Wars and remember that scene being featured….

330 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:04:06am

re: #325 NJDhockeyfan

I don’t get the point of intentionally misrepresenting your link like that. What are you trying to achieve?

Maher is a douchebag.

331 Ericus58  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:05:42am

re: #330 Obdicut

I don’t get the point of intentionally misrepresenting your link like that. What are you trying to achieve?

Maher is a douchebag.

He has no class.
He’s a shock-jock with a t.v. show instead of radio…

332 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:05:42am

re: #329 Ericus58

Funny. That’s the first thing I thought of when I read #313.

333 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:17:05am

re: #330 Obdicut

I don’t get the point of intentionally misrepresenting your link like that. What are you trying to achieve?

Maher is a douchebag.

NJD typed “Dem Politician

Perhaps he meant “Repub politician”

from the article

not to mention calling Sarah Palin a “c***” (“there’s just no other word for her”)

***’s put in by me

334 Pie-onist Overlord  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:18:29am

re: #333 sattv4u2

NJD typed “Dem Politician

Perhaps he meant “Repub politician”

It’s disgusting either way.

335 darthstar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:21:28am

re: #333 sattv4u2

NJD typed “Dem Politician

Perhaps he meant “Repub politician”

from the article

not to mention calling Sarah Palin a “c***” (“there’s just no other word for her”)

***’s put in by me

He called her a stupid twat, which is slightly less vulgur than calling her a ****, which is an ugly word.

336 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:23:02am

re: #334 Alouette

It’s disgusting either way.

Absolutly

In the last decade or so, it seems as if one “comic” or another (regardless of political bent) trys to “outdo” their predecessors for shock value

337 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:23:16am

re: #335 darthstar

He called her a stupid twat, which is slightly less vulgur than calling her a ****, which is an ugly word.

This is a different incident… at a live performance on 3-28-2011… he used the “c” word according to the reviewer in the article NJD posted… didn’t you read it?

338 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:23:35am

re: #337 Walter L. Newton

This is a different incident… at a live performance on 3-28-2011… he used the “c” word according to the reviewer in the article NJD posted… didn’t you read it?

3-27-2011 correction

339 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:24:10am

re: #335 darthstar

He called her a stupid twat, which is slightly less vulgur than calling her a ****, which is an ugly word.

Not according to the glowing review from The Dallas Voice

dallasvoice.com

340 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:26:45am

re: #339 sattv4u2

Not according to the glowing review from The Dallas Voice

[Link: www.dallasvoice.com…]

I didn’t realize that there was a “slightly less vulgar” list of obscenities that I could get away with?

341 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:27:57am

re: #340 Walter L. Newton

I didn’t realize that there was a “slightly less vulgar” list of obscenities that I could get away with?

Maybe there’s an updated list availbale at NOW~!

342 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:28:59am

re: #340 Walter L. Newton

I didn’t realize that there was a “slightly less vulgar” list of obscenities that I could get away with?

OR ,, we could e-mail Joy Bahar (sp?) for approval!!

343 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:36:48am

re: #341 sattv4u2

I would expect the Urban Dictionary would be more helpful

344 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:37:00am

re: #342 sattv4u2

OR ,, we could e-mail Joy Bahar (sp?) for approval!!

Honestly… the Shrieking Yentas Show.

345 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:49:28am

As I promised:

imgur.com

346 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:50:44am

re: #345 EmmmieG

As I promised:

[Link: imgur.com…]

THAT’S ILLEGAL!!

347 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:51:00am

re: #345 EmmmieG

As I promised:

[Link: imgur.com…]

Oh, I should say that these are the pennies that we alloyed last night.

The place I got the experiment from called it bronze, but upon looking it up this morning, tin and copper usually make bronze (actually, the smiths usually used copper and whatever they had lying around). This is copper and zinc, which is sometimes considered brass.

In any case, I think the kids will like it.

348 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:52:52am

re: #345 EmmmieG

As I promised:

[Link: imgur.com…]

I’d like some unmarked 1000 dollar bills….
;)

349 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:53:51am

re: #347 EmmmieG

Cool!

350 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 8:57:20am

Wingnuts agree. Obama is uppity…..
Obama Speech Analysis: A Weird Journey Through the Mind of a Narcissist

351 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:04:52am

re: #348 Varek Raith

I’d like some unmarked 1000 dollar bills…
;)

I’m in touch with a Prince in Nairobi that can get you plenty of them

Jujst give me your bank account routing numbers and we’re good to go

352 Ryan King  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:05:58am

re: #350 Killgore Trout

Totally petty childishness.

353 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:11:22am

re: #350 Killgore Trout

Wingnuts agree. Obama is uppity…
Obama Speech Analysis: A Weird Journey Through the Mind of a Narcissist

It would be instructive to trace the “narcissist” meme. The first time I saw it was on the site of the crazy scumbag Ali Sina who wrote articles about how Obama is the new Hitler. I wonder if the wingnuts got the meme from him.

354 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:11:33am

So wait - isn’t Khadafi (sp?) Palpatine, and we’ve got the rebel alliance running against him in Libya?

Syria’s Assad is who exactly? The Trade Federation? Opposition would be who - the Gungans?

That would make Iran the Spacing Guild? /trying to keep the sci-fi/fantasy v. real world straight.

355 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:13:23am

re: #353 Sergey Romanov

In fact, this is probably how it started. Google Ali Sina Obama narcissist

356 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:13:49am

re: #354 lawhawk

Khadafi (sp?)

LOL

357 Professor Chaos  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:13:53am

re: #350 Killgore Trout

Sorry, I don’t do Fox Nation anymore. But I imagine doing some sort of “analysis” is a lot easier when you arrive at your conclusion first.

358 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:14:32am

re: #353 Sergey Romanov

It would be instructive to trace the “narcissist” meme. The first time I saw it was on the site of the crazy scumbag Ali Sina who wrote articles about how Obama is the new Hitler. I wonder if the wingnuts got the meme from him.


I’ a little on the fence about if the Birther thing has racist roots but the uppity black man meme has a long history in American culture. I think it’s pretty blatantly racist.

359 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:18:30am

re: #14 eclectic infidel

I’m watching Precious right now. Damn.

Oh yeah. That’s a hard one.

Let me know what you think.

Barbara Bush told everyone to go and see it, and then said, “You may start watching it, and then think, ‘Wait, BARBARA BUSH wanted me to see this. But watch it, because it’s important.’”

360 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:32:39am

BBL

maybe

361 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:34:41am

re: #95 researchok

Voucher programs/lotteries in inner cities are popular because people jusyt want better schools.

If a Hindu Academy had a 100% Ivy League acceptance rate, people would be lining up to get in.

There’s a school in my area that has a spectacular K-8 program. The kids get accepted to great high schools. It’s a lovely place. A coworker’s sons went there—she could afford it because her ex is a partner at his law firm.

They charge $20,000 annually for the K-5 program. This is not an unusual amount in the area. The Catholic high school I worked at charged $11,000, and we were repeatedly told we were selling ourselves short.

Is there a voucher program in existence that is going to make that school available to a family from the Iron Triangle of Richmond?

362 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:36:06am

re: #105 Obdicut

The voucher system isn’t going to actually help the standard of education in this country unless private schools are forced to take any student regardless of behavior problems, etc., the same way public schools do.

Otherwise, we’ll get a system where the public schools have to deal with all the problem kids, and the private schools get to be state-funded while enjoying the benefits of selecting from a population— which also means that of course they’ll have better results, since they’re working from a better starting point.

My fear is that it basically becomes a state-run scholarship program—which is nice, I’m in favor of doing something to help exceptional kids—but the problem is that if you’re not exceptional, you’re SOL.

363 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:38:23am

re: #137 RogueOne

I’m not buying that only 600 students were expelled in chicago during a 12 year time span. That’s not passing the smell test. According to the feds the expulsion rate for everyone is close to 9%:

[Link: nces.ed.gov…]

and this graph:
Image: sFig3.2.gif

and NAACP head Ben Jealous agrees:
(video)
[Link: www.thegrio.com…]

They may have something in place that allows them to keep the kids ‘in the system’ without technically expelling them.

364 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:40:41am

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

Oh hell… the common line is to blame anyone except the parent(s) and the kids… so, take your pick. Fine with me.

I’m a teacher. I’m not allowed to blame the parents or the kids.

Except for this one woman—I totally blame her.

365 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:42:28am

re: #263 NJDhockeyfan

Kucinich: “Obama Doctrine” Like Bush Doctrine; Compares Libya To Iraq

Barack Obama is the new George Bush?

That appears to be the growing consensus.

366 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:45:16am

re: #325 NJDhockeyfan

Wingnut comedian calls Dem politician a c**t.

How fucking disgusting.

Yes it is. So is trying to set people up.

367 Ericus58  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:45:33am

I’m always amazed and in a bit of awe at SFZ’s Thread-crawl Fu ability.

368 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:46:12am

re: #330 Obdicut

I don’t get the point of intentionally misrepresenting your link like that. What are you trying to achieve?

Maher is a douchebag.

We can’t be trusted to be pissed off at him if he’s attacking Palin.

//

369 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:46:19am

re: #367 Ericus58

I’m always amazed and in a bit of awe at SFZ’s Thread-crawl Fu ability.

Heh.

370 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:47:43am

re: #340 Walter L. Newton

I didn’t realize that there was a “slightly less vulgar” list of obscenities that I could get away with?

Of course there is.

In this case, neither is acceptable.

371 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:47:56am

re: #341 sattv4u2

Maybe there’s an updated list availbale at NOW~!

I beg your fucking pardon?

372 Ericus58  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:48:31am

“Everybody was Thread-Crawl fighting….. HUH!

some posters were fast as Lightning….. HA!”

373 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:48:53am

Article on Muslim Brotherhood Website Advocates Transportation for Women Only

In an article on the official website of the Muslim Brotherhood, Iman Isma’il called for to establish separate transportation for women in Egypt. Isma’il said she planned to propose her initiative to bus drivers, and then bring it before the Egyptian government as an official campaign.

Following are excerpts from her article:

“‘Vehicles of all kinds, of a special and distinct color, with a sign that says “For Women Only,” in which no man will touch us. We will not [have to] shout ourselves hoarse trying to get them to clear the way so that we can board or alight. We will not [have to] fight with anyone refusing to clear the way. Reasonably priced [transportation ensuring us] complete respect.’

…

374 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:48:59am

re: #372 Ericus58

“Everybody was Thread-Crawl fighting… HUH!

some posters were fast as Lightning… HA!”

That’s bad.
Go sit in the corner.
/

375 Pie-onist Overlord  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:50:11am

re: #373 NJDhockeyfan

Article on Muslim Brotherhood Website Advocates Transportation for Women Only

Did they get that idea from the Eda Haredit?

376 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:54:01am

re: #373 NJDhockeyfan

Article on Muslim Brotherhood Website Advocates Transportation for Women Only

I know they’ve actually got those in a number of places, including India, Malaysia and Mexico City. The basic idea is that when sexual harassment is so high that it’s hard for women to use public transportation, you give them a safe alternative.

It’s a very dicey issue, especially coming from the Muslim Brotherhood. (I believe in India, at least, the separate buses were demanded by women’s groups, and didn’t have a religious angle.) I know that in Israel there has been an ongoing struggle over mixed seating on public transit in some areas. It’s hard for me not to see this as an attempt to segregate women out of the public sphere.

OTOH, I think everyone got an idea of what Egyptian women are up against on the streets this last couple of months, and this enables them to go to school and work, rather than insisting that they should stay home.

I really don’t know what I’m looking at here.

377 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:54:04am

For you SFZ, the first tweet of the day from:


Bronx Zoo’s Cobra
BronxZoosCobra Bronx Zoo’s Cobra

Rise & Slither. #snakeonthetown

378 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:55:20am

re: #377 Stanley Sea

For you SFZ, the first tweet of the day from:

Bronx Zoo’s Cobra
BronxZoosCobra Bronx Zoo’s Cobra

Rise & Slither. #snakeonthetown

I want a Bronx Zoo’s Cobra t-shirt.

Do they have any idea what may have happened to the actual snake? Could it have been stolen?

379 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:55:53am

re: #378 SanFranciscoZionist

I want a Bronx Zoo’s Cobra t-shirt.

Do they have any idea what may have happened to the actual snake? Could it have been stolen?

No idea!

380 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:56:13am

re: #377 Stanley Sea

For you SFZ, the first tweet of the day from:

Bronx Zoo’s Cobra
BronxZoosCobra Bronx Zoo’s Cobra

Rise & Slither. #snakeonthetown

Meanwhile, Bronx Zookeeper tweets:

Pedaling over the Brooklyn Bridge, heading into cobra territory. I swear, if they ever name this bridge after Giuliani I will lose my $!&%.
16 minutes ago via web

381 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:57:11am

re: #378 SanFranciscoZionist

I want a Bronx Zoo’s Cobra t-shirt.

Do they have any idea what may have happened to the actual snake? Could it have been stolen?

Maybe it got to the airport and took a plane to someplace warm.

382 lostlakehiker  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:57:53am

re: #105 Obdicut

The voucher system isn’t going to actually help the standard of education in this country unless private schools are forced to take any student regardless of behavior problems, etc., the same way public schools do.

Otherwise, we’ll get a system where the public schools have to deal with all the problem kids, and the private schools get to be state-funded while enjoying the benefits of selecting from a population— which also means that of course they’ll have better results, since they’re working from a better starting point.

If vouchers are off the table, do students in irredeemably bad school districts, eg. DC now that Rhee has been fired, have any hope at all? Private schools that took most comers, that got better results than might have been expected from the selfsame students continuing at their regular school, and that cost less, would seem to me to be instances of helping the standard of education.

Public schools need to have some sort of immune system to cope with highly disruptive kids. We have that in my community—-a student who just raises cain all the time will get sent to an alternative school where the teachers are muscular enough he can’t intimidate them, numerous enough he can’t slip through the cracks, and dedicated enough that if he is at all reachable, they can steer him toward some measure of self control and then classroom accomplishment.

Assuming this, there is no reason that public schools should be disaster zones that have no chance to compete with private schools that don’t have to put up with cain-raisers. For neither will the mainstream public school.

Public schools that do face voucher competition have sometimes risen to the challenge. Vouchers are no panacea, and voucher schools don’t have any huge advantage over sensibly run public schools, or any huge performance edge.

383 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 9:58:03am

re: #376 SanFranciscoZionist

Add Japan to that list. I’m really not sure how I feel about this issue, it has so many angles. Though the Muslim Brotherhood advocating it raises the hair on the back of my neck.

384 BishopX  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:00:54am

re: #373 NJDhockeyfan

Article on Muslim Brotherhood Website Advocates Transportation for Women Only

It’s not a horrible idea actually. Given the pervasiveness of sexual harassment in Egypt, creating safe spaces for women might very well be welcome.

There three ways the government can take on this kind of harassment, education, legal enforcement and segregation. Education is costly and marginally effective, although some sort of concentrated anti-discrimination program targeted at the police force as part of a reform movement might work. Legal enforcement, especially on overcrowded buses would probably require under cover officers (Tokyo did this effectively a few years back), and under cover police aren’t terribly popular in Egypt right now. Segregation is effective, and it also allows authorities to kill two birds with one stone. They can add capacity (Egypt’s infrastructure is incredibly overburdened right now) and fight harassment at the same time.

385 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:02:21am

re: #381 oaktree

Maybe it got to the airport and took a plane to someplace warm.

It did mention yesterday that it’s had it with Samuel L. Jackson, too.

386 BishopX  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:02:43am

re: #382 lostlakehiker

You can accomplish the competition goal much more effectively with a small number of charter schools…there is no need to pay 20,000 a head for competition.

387 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:03:50am

re: #383 prononymous

Add Japan to that list. I’m really not sure how I feel about this issue, it has so many angles. Though the Muslim Brotherhood advocating it raises the hair on the back of my neck.

Yeah, that’s most of why my radar goes up. The idea itself is not a bad first step toward women’s safety, although changing societal attitudes is the real challenge.

But it’s the Muslim Brotherhood. I don’t trust their asses, especially not where women’s issues are concerned.

388 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:04:26am

re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, that’s most of why my radar goes up. The idea itself is not a bad first step toward women’s safety, although changing societal attitudes is the real challenge.

But it’s the Muslim Brotherhood. I don’t trust their asses, especially not where women’s issues are concerned.

I totally agree.

389 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:08:56am

Facebook page supporting Palestinian intifada pulled down

Jerusalem (CNN) — A controversial Facebook page calling for another Palestinian intifada has been pulled off the social media website, following complaints from the Israeli government that it incited violence against Jews.

A statement from Facebook said the group page entitled the “Third Palestinian Intifada” — which had garnered more than 350,000 “likes” over the course of the past month — was removed from the website because it contained direct calls for violence.

“The page… began as a call for peaceful protest, even though it used a term that has been associated with violence in the past. In addition, the administrators initially removed comments that promoted violence,” the company statement said. “However, after the publicity of the page, more comments deteriorated to direct calls for violence. Eventually, the administrators also participated in these calls. After administrators of the page received repeated warnings about posts that violated our policies, we removed the page.

390 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:09:20am

re: #382 lostlakehiker

Public schools need to have some sort of immune system to cope with highly disruptive kids. We have that in my community—-a student who just raises cain all the time will get sent to an alternative school where the teachers are muscular enough he can’t intimidate them, numerous enough he can’t slip through the cracks, and dedicated enough that if he is at all reachable, they can steer him toward some measure of self control and then classroom accomplishment.


Don’t forget the medication. /


Vouchers are no panacea, and voucher schools don’t have any huge advantage over sensibly run public schools, or any huge performance edge.


This is the clincher for me. The fact that places like Finland can get the kind of education system they have without banning unions, without vouchers, and allowing private schools indicates to me that none of those are really the fix to our problem. Our problem is political, and Finland, among other places, resolved to not make education a political football decades ago. It has been relatively constant improvement for them since.

391 BishopX  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:10:04am

re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist

My guess that the MB is trying to figure out a post Mubarak strategy. Transitioning to a conservative religious party (as opposed to a religiously based reform opposition party) might let them nab a bunch of ex-NDP supporters, instead of competing with whatever new secular reform parties emerge.

392 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:11:10am

re: #389 NJDhockeyfan

Facebook page supporting Palestinian intifada pulled down

About time.

393 Ericus58  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:13:04am

re: #389 NJDhockeyfan

Facebook page supporting Palestinian intifada pulled down

About damn time - sure was some delay though, FB wasn’t coming out looking good on this yesterday.

394 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:13:52am

Conservative Think Tank Seeks Michigan Profs’ Emails About Wisconsin Union Battle … And Maddow

A free enterprise think tank in Michigan — backed by some of the biggest names in national conservative donor circles — has made a broad public records request to at least three in-state universities with departments that specialize in the study of labor relations, seeking all their emails regarding the union battle in Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker (R-WI) and MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow, TPM has learned.

According to professors subject to the request, filed under Michigan’s version of the Freedom Of Information Act, the request is extremely rare in academic circles. An employee at the think tank requesting the emails tells TPM they’re part of an investigation into what labor studies professors at state schools in Michigan are saying about the situation in Madison, Wisc., the epicenter of the clashes between unions and Republican-run state governments across the Midwest.

One professor subject to the FOIA described it as anti-union advocates “going after folks they don’t agree with.”


The Mackinac Center For Public Policy, based in Midland, Mich., submitted the FOIA requests last Friday and Monday to the Labor Studies Center at the University of Michigan and the Douglas A. Fraser Center for Workplace Issues at Wayne State University. A third FOIA was directed to Michigan State University, which has a School of Human Resources & Labor Relations.

The requests specifically seek emails from all labor studies faculty at each school.

Go fish.

395 lostlakehiker  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:14:00am

re: #72 researchok

What’s the excuse in Michigan?

All I know is colleges admit to dumbing down to accommodate students.

Pudding and all that.

While we’re on the topic of Michigan vs. Texas, here’s some information from the NAEP:

NAEP math comparisons.

4th grade: TX is middling, MI is below average.

8th grade: 8th grade NAEP page

TX is better than 22 states, roughly equal to 10, and below 9.
MI is better than 9 states, roughly equal to 10, and below 32.

12th grade results were available from only 11 states, and neither MI nor TX among those 11.

The NAEP results point to TX being considerably ahead of MI in public education, with TX somewhat above average, and MI well below.

MI has no excuse that TX cannot see and raise.

396 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:17:10am

Facebook has nasty groups that pop up all the time. Most of the nasty ones I’ve seen have been directed towards gays. I am glad they took that intifada down of course.

397 Uncle Obdicut  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:21:40am

re: #382 lostlakehiker

If vouchers are off the table, do students in irredeemably bad school districts, eg. DC now that Rhee has been fired, have any hope at all?

What are you talking about? How can a school district be ‘irredeemably bad’?

Private schools that took most comers, that got better results than might have been expected from the selfsame students continuing at their regular school, and that cost less, would seem to me to be instances of helping the standard of education.

What schools are these that take most comers, please?

398 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:27:49am

Limbaugh: “Regime Change In Iraq Took What, A Couple Days?”

Lol, okely dokely.

399 Kragar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:28:59am

re: #398 Varek Raith

Limbaugh: “Regime Change In Iraq Took What, A Couple Days?”

Lol, okely dokely.

Which explains why we’re still there with troops years later.

400 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:29:34am

re: #398 Varek Raith

Limbaugh: “Regime Change In Iraq Took What, A Couple Days?”

Lol, okely dokely.

I also noticed the wingnuts are bitching about the daily cost of operations in Libya. I’m sure it’s a mere fraction of what we’re spending in Iraq.

401 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:30:21am

re: #398 Varek Raith

Limbaugh: “Regime Change In Iraq Took What, A Couple Days?”

Lol, okely dokely.

YEah, Rush, Iraq was a walk in the park. Fucking asshole.

402 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:31:04am

re: #395 lostlakehiker

So they need to work on their math program. They are level to slightly ahead of Texas at grade 8 in reading and science.

If Texas is about the national average in terms of science education, there is something really wrong. Read a Texas science textbook sometime if you wonder what I mean.

403 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:31:19am

re: #400 Killgore Trout

I also noticed the wingnuts are bitching about the daily cost of operations in Libya. I’m sure it’s a mere fraction of what we’re spending in Iraq.

Oh, that was different. If Obama had done the same exact thing Bush did in Iraq down to the costs and all, they’d be frying him but because Bush did it, it was fine.

404 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:32:02am

re: #401 HappyWarrior

YEah, Rush, Iraq was a walk in the park. Fucking asshole.

It was a walk in the park for him. Isn’t that what matters?

405 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:33:00am

re: #403 HappyWarrior

Oh, that was different. If Obama had done the same exact thing Bush did in Iraq down to the costs and all, they’d be frying him but because Bush did it, it was fine.

Cognitive dissonance ain’t got nothing on the wingnut position.

406 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:35:20am
NEW WORLD ORDER: EU to Ban All Cars From European Cities…

Lol Drudge Headline.

407 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:35:40am

re: #404 prononymous

It was a walk in the park for him. Isn’t that what matters?

Yeah, seriously this is what I hate about people who act like war is easy. It never is. Even the quickest wars aren’t.

408 Kragar  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:37:26am

Libyan Woman Who Claimed Rape May Face Criminal Charges Herself


Al-Obeidi may soon face criminal charges herself. She named four of the men who she says raped her and held her prisoner for two days. According to Moussa Ibrahim, a spokesman for the Libyan government, this could be enough to land her in legal trouble.

“The four guys are having a case filed against her because instead of going to a police station and filing a case against them she went to the media and exposed their names,” Ibrahim said this week.

“Now their honour is tainted, their families black-named and this in the Islamic law is a very grave offense.”

409 iossarian  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:37:35am

re: #404 prononymous

It was a walk in the park for him. Isn’t that what matters?

Steady now. A walk in the park is quite an undertaking for Rush.

410 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:44:55am

Cracked had a great article about the role of bullshit in today’s economy.

cracked.com

This thread topic reminded me of it. Good read, and of course, funny.

411 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:51:21am

re: #393 Ericus58

About damn time - sure was some delay though, FB wasn’t coming out looking good on this yesterday.

The page in question said that if Facebook took it down, no Muslim would ever use Facebook again.

Permit me leave to doubt. I think all the college girls in Malaysia are still updating their Facebook pages as we speak.

412 TedStriker  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:52:06am

re: #408 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Libyan Woman Who Claimed Rape May Face Criminal Charges Herself

What a fucking crock… Qaddafi’s thugs were going to find a way to blame the victim, one of the (hopefully) last gasps of a violent, corrupt regime.

Unfortunately, I think she’ll pay for her “insolence” with her life…and there’s not a thing that anyone can do about it, aside shouting it from the rooftops.

413 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:52:21am

re: #396 HappyWarrior

Facebook has nasty groups that pop up all the time. Most of the nasty ones I’ve seen have been directed towards gays. I am glad they took that intifada down of course.

As far as I can tell, Facebook pretty much relies on user reportage, and public outrage, to get them to do anything.

414 HappyWarrior  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 10:59:28am

re: #413 SanFranciscoZionist

As far as I can tell, Facebook pretty much relies on user reportage, and public outrage, to get them to do anything.

That’s my understanding too.

415 simoom  Tue, Mar 29, 2011 11:01:27am

re: #127 albusteve

BO says school tests punishes students

“Too often what we have been doing is using these tests to punish students,” the president told students and parents at a town hall hosted by the Univision Spanish-language television network at Bell Multicultural High School in Washington, D.C.

[Link: news.yahoo.com…]

Transcript:

Q: My name is Lisa and I’m going to attend my last year here at Bell Multicultural High School. Students go through a lot of tests. Could you reduce the amount of tests? For example, we found a student passes a test, he shouldn’t take the same test next year.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think probably what you’re referring to are standardized tests — because if you’re just talking about your math or your science or your English test, tough luck — (laughter) — you’ve got to keep on taking those tests, because that’s part of the way that teachers are going to know whether you’re making progress and whether you understand the subject matter.

What is true, though, is, is that we have piled on a lot of standardized tests on our kids. Now, there’s nothing wrong with a standardized test being given occasionally just to give a baseline of where kids are at. Malia and Sasha, my two daughters, they just recently took a standardized test. But it wasn’t a high-stakes test. It wasn’t a test where they had to panic. I mean, they didn’t even really know that they were going to take it ahead of time. They didn’t study for it, they just went ahead and took it. And it was a tool to diagnose where they were strong, where they were weak, and what the teachers needed to emphasize.

Too often what we’ve been doing is using these tests to punish students or to, in some cases, punish schools. And so what we’ve said is let’s find a test that everybody agrees makes sense; let’s apply it in a less pressured-packed atmosphere; let’s figure out whether we have to do it every year or whether we can do it maybe every several years; and let’s make sure that that’s not the only way we’re judging whether a school is doing well.

Because there are other criteria: What’s the attendance rate? How are young people performing in terms of basic competency on projects? There are other ways of us measuring whether students are doing well or not.

So what I want to do is — one thing I never want to see happen is schools that are just teaching to the test. Because then you’re not learning about the world; you’re not learning about different cultures, you’re not learning about science, you’re not learning about math. All you’re learning about is how to fill out a little bubble on an exam and the little tricks that you need to do in order to take a test. And that’s not going to make education interesting to you. And young people do well in stuff that they’re interested in. They’re not going to do as well if it’s boring.

So, now, I still want you to know, though, you’re going to have to take some tests, man. (Laughter.) So you’re not going to get completely out of that. All right? (Applause.)

That article is a case of AP doing their typical half-assed job with their summations again. First the President defended frequent school testing in Math, Science and English. He also never even said standardized testing was boring, but instead that being drilled on only the material needed to pass frequent, high-stakes standardized tests can be uninteresting & boring.


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