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Once Upon the Internet

Sat, May 10, 2008 at 6:29:20 pm PDT

Did you know that lizards have evolved to write poetry? From LGF reader Winslow:

Who Knows?

’Twas once upon the internet I chanced upon an argument;
A blog appeared to splinter into internecine wars.
’Twas all precipitated by a movie dedicated to
Portraying Darwinism as a truth-suppressing force.

A thousand comments did I read, another thousand did I feed
Into my aching brain, yet little progress did I find.
No sooner was a claim defeated, than it was again repeated;
Surely there’s a better way to influence a mind.

Oh Lord, I grew so weary of the cry: “It’s just a theory!” for
This charge is not dismissive in the scientific world.
And though this point was oft explained, it did not hinder those who claimed
That “Theory!” is rhetorical invective to be hurled.

My neurons whirled, my senses swirled; how did man come into this world?
I longed to take a nap, but someone said: “I’ve found a gap!”
And though the gap was quickly filled, there promptly came a voice more thrilled:
“Behold!” it cried, “I now have spied a flanking pair of gaps!”

And then, with logic so perverse it hurts to render it in verse,
The charge was made that atheism is religious faith.
And even Orwell would be awed by language so profoundly flawed,
For logically, religious faith is therefore non-belief.

To try to cast theology as natural philosophy
Is clearly what Intelligent Designers have in mind.
Their documented strategy to wedge their way to victory
Speaks volumes on the nature of Intelligent Design.

Though Darwin’s Evolution is an elegant solution to
The origin of species, still I might hear someone say:
“There must be something greater, so there must be a Creator,” but
Creators need creators too; it’s turtles all the way.

And so it went, and so it goes, but how it all began, who knows?
I’ll check the blog tomorrow, just in case it’s been resolved.
And if, by then, we all agree on how the humans came to be,
We’ll try to answer how and why we lizardoids evolved.

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1173 comments

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1 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:30:25pm
2 WhiteRasta  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:31:17pm

Lovely.Very insightful.

3 pat  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:31:19pm

Oh Oh. :)

4 VegasRick  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:31:32pm

I once knew a girl from ole' Kentuck
She couldn't cook but she sure could..................................sing!

5 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:32:06pm

Ha ha, well done, Winslow

6 seekeroftruth  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:32:18pm

Awesome Winslow!

7 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:32:33pm

Fantastic. It cries out for a little Tom Lehrer-ish piano music...

8 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:32:56pm
9 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:32:59pm

Again- it's bloody brilliant.

10 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:33:06pm
11 ted  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:33:59pm

Holy Great Moses Stuff !

12 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:35:14pm
13 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:36:15pm

re: #12 jcm

THE WORD ON THE MATTER!

Now- don't be bringing matter into this- you'll upset the anti-materialists.

/

14 Pent.  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:36:42pm

Trying to bring in class into this discussion will probably not work.

15 CapeCoddah  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:36:59pm

Thats pretty cool. Nice job!

16 hayseed  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:37:19pm

re: #10 song_and_dance_man

sci fi channel native girls being chased by t rex

17 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:37:30pm

re: #14 Pent.

Trying to bring in class into this discussion will probably not work.

PHHFFFFBBBBBTTTTTT!
*sticks thumbs in ears and waggles fingers*

18 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:37:35pm

Just posted in the spinoffs: Cardinal Murphy O'Connor claim Hitler and Stalin were guided by Reason

The Disco Institute talking points are gaining traction.

19 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:37:46pm

Lance, what do you think? Ah, crap....

20 sattv4u2  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:37:52pm

Once Upon the Internet

Lemme get my jammies on and have a glass of warm milk ,,, someones going to tell me a bedtime story !

21 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:38:51pm

Did that thread die yet? I only took one knife in the back on a thread I stayed out of until around comment 1500 or so.

22 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:39:25pm

re: #20 sattv4u2

Once Upon the Internet

Lemme get my jammies on and have a glass of warm milk ,,, someones going to tell me a bedtime story !

In the beginning GORALCE said..... LET THERE BE NET!

23 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:39:37pm

Even better the second time around. Good on ya, Winslow.

24 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:39:43pm

It's just a theory!

25 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:40:01pm
26 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:40:12pm

re: #24 DesertSage

It's just a theory!

The internet?

27 Gagdad Bob  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:40:17pm

Leave it to a middlebrow atheist to drain poetry of its transcendent content, and therefore, the sufficient reason for its existence. A poem this bad may well prove Darwin right, as Koko could have written it.

28 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:40:57pm

re: #21 EC Marm

Did that thread die yet? I only took one knife in the back on a thread I stayed out of until around comment 1500 or so.

Some threads are not worth commenting on. We have all made up our minds on evolution and creationism. Don't like fighting people I respect.....

29 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:42:18pm

re: #28 LoFlyer

Don't like fighting people I respect.....


You should. You'd learn a lot.

30 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:42:26pm
31 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:42:44pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

You should see some of the crap that got left down on the last thread.

32 greenmiler  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:44:26pm

sounds like i missed all the fun

33 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:44:54pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

Creationists sure are long winded.

34 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:44:58pm
35 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:45:13pm

re: #16 hayseed

sci fi channel native girls being chased by t rex

Without looking, is it Carnosaur?

36 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:45:24pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

You should. You'd learn a lot.

They aren't going to change their minds, and I am not going to change mine. I will stay out of abortion and creationism vs evolution threads. Nothing changes and all it brings is hard feelings between fellow lizzards....

37 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:46:01pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

Creationists sure are long winded.

Someone found an unoccupied soapbox?

38 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:46:19pm

Koko post music link:

39 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:46:29pm

re: #36 LoFlyer

They aren't going to change their minds, and I am not going to change mine. I will stay out of abortion and creationism vs evolution threads. Nothing changes and all it brings is hard feelings between fellow lizzards....

I'm with you.

40 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:47:16pm

Of course this poem describing the frustration of watching lots of people debating such a controversial and mind numbing argument and the chaos...will eventually provoke that very chaos.

Chicken or the egg?

Where does re-incarnation fit into evolution?

41 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:47:20pm

re: #37 Spiny Norman

Ha!

42 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:47:27pm

re: #39 goddessoftheclassroom

You do learn a lot of ways to be snide and condescending, though.

43 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:47:40pm
44 Dr. Shalit  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:47:44pm

Charles,

If you haven't noticed it - WINSLOW - is OUR Frost if not our Shakespeare.Comments please.

-S-

45 Macker  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:47:59pm

re: #36 LoFlyer

Besides, we got a War to fight!

46 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:48:01pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

OK. In honor of the recently banned, I'll take one for the team. Please be gentle.

Here goes: How is atheism not a religious belief?

47 Pent.  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:49:28pm
re: #39 goddessoftheclassroom

You do learn a lot of ways to be snide and condescending, though.


Yay?

48 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:49:42pm

re: #34 ploome hineni
Did you see where ditz is now claiming to be married and using her "husbands" lgf account by accident? If so, my sincere sympathizes to the Mr.

49 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:49:49pm

re: #42 OldLineTexan

Oh, and how to construct strawmen. Can't leave that out. Putting words in your opponent's mouths is always a constructive skill.

50 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:49:59pm

re: #46 Pater Coop

Here goes: How is atheism not a religious belief?

It is....they'll just never admit it.

51 Dr. Shalit  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:50:22pm

re: #46 Pater Coop

OK. In honor of the recently banned, I'll take one for the team. Please be gentle.

Here goes: How is atheism not a religious belief?

"P-C" -

NO WAY! That is all.

-S-

52 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:50:48pm

More interesting than either side of this argument are those that try to tie them together into one. Evolution as a tool of the creator. Lots of deep thoughts on that.

53 hayseed  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:50:52pm

re: #35 Spiny Norman

aztec rex

54 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:51:15pm

Does "Winslow" post as "Winslow Leach" at other blogs?

Or just here and I'm imagining things staying up too late blog surfing and forgetting what I've seen where?

55 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:51:19pm

re: #36 LoFlyer

They aren't going to change their minds, and I am not going to change mine.


That's not the point. Never enter a sincere debate with the goal of changing your opponents mind. Explain why you believe what you believe and see if your opinion can stand the scrutiny. The people you respect are probably the most able to beat you in a debate. Sure, some people get pissed off and hold grudges but those people don't last here anyways. It's not a problem.

56 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:51:39pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

Creationists sure are long winded.

What's worse- some seem to think they have a monopoly on ethics and morals. I find that insulting.

57 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:52:05pm

Who's on first?

58 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:53:01pm

re: #57 David IV of Georgia

Who's on first?

Yes.

59 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:53:18pm

re: #53 hayseed

aztec rex

Ah!

Gotta keep my made-for-cable T & A prehistoric monster romps straight...

60 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:53:44pm

If creationism isn't true, then how do you explain animals being made out of meat?

61 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:55:05pm

re: #42 OldLineTexan

You do learn a lot of ways to be snide and condescending, though.

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and I don't want my feelings hurt.

I learned when I was very young that I had verbal quickness (or whatever you want to call it) beyond that of most of my friends. I could out-argue and out-insult them if I wanted to. I knew that I was "blessed" with a formidable tool that could be a weapon.

And I chose never to use it to hurt.

It is very difficult at times to bite back a comment that comes to mind, especially when someone has intentionally hurt me (such as my former inlaws), but I do.

62 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:55:12pm
63 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:55:44pm

How did the first unliving substance obtain "life"?

64 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:55:59pm

re: #56 Sharmuta

What's worse- some seem to think they have a monopoly on ethics and morals. I find that insulting.

Is acting like an immature little brat by proclaiming that you're going to sneak into a movie theater to avoid paying for a product that you purchased considered "ethical" and "moral"?

Just asking.

65 TrollBot PrtoType Six  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:56:04pm

re: #46 Pater Coop

OK. In honor of the recently banned, I'll take one for the team. Please be gentle.

Here goes: How is atheism not a religious belief?

As an apathetic agnostic I couldn't care less what anyone wants to call it.

66 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:56:07pm

re: #46 Pater Coop

How is atheism not a religious belief?

There are many different flavors of atheism.

Atheism, as an explicit position, either affirms the nonexistence of gods[1] or rejects theism.[2] When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities,[3] alternatively called nontheism.[4] Although atheism is often equated with irreligion, some religious philosophies, such as secular theology and some varieties of Buddhism such as Theravada, either do not include belief in a personal god as a tenet of the religion, or actively teach nontheism.

Essentially it's non-belief. The burden of proof (or faith) is on the believer, not the non-believer. You might be considered an atheist in some cultures for you lack of faith in their gods even though you have your own.

67 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:56:08pm
68 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:56:26pm

re: #59 Spiny Norman

Ah!

Gotta keep my made-for-cable T & A prehistoric monster romps straight...

The brightly-dyed chicken feather "native art" featured on that show is just rockin'.

Looks like a band of Cub Scouts formed a successful "Lord of the Flies" society with regular arts n' crafts nights.

69 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:56:29pm

re: #56 Sharmuta

I find that insulting.


I'm used to it.

70 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:56:54pm

In evolution, how did self awareness first occur?

71 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:57:00pm
72 Mr. E. Train  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:57:48pm

I dont understand why God and evolution have to be mutually exclusive. Why cant the latter be the tool used by the former?

It is said Abner Doubleday created the modern rules of baseball, but that doesnt mean the man pitches every pitch, hits every hit, runs every run. He set the rules by which the game is played, thus 'creating' the game.

The universe is unimaginably huge. I can think of less elegant methods of creating life on an infinite number of worlds at the same time. I dont see Darwinism as denying God, rather it is a glimpse at his greatness. Unraveling a strand of DNA doesnt make the creator go away, it drives home his transcendent genius.

This argument is silly and even a bit shameful.

73 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:57:57pm
74 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:58:55pm
75 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:59:35pm

Lightning is how self awareness occured or how dead matter obtained life?

76 Dr. Shalit  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:59:43pm

re: #56 Sharmuta

What's worse- some seem to think they have a monopoly on ethics and morals. I find that insulting.

"Sharm" -

Let us take the "Organized Stuff" out of the equation. I have little of it. You may have LESS, you may have MORE, I have NO CLUE. Go to a BEACH, anywhere, look at the sand, the water and please tell me that "Ha-Shem", "The Great Spirit", etc., et. al. does not exist. Einstein couldn't.

-S-

77 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:00:25pm

Oh, and how did lightning do this?

78 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:00:25pm
79 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:00:38pm

re: #61 goddessoftheclassroom

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and I don't want my feelings hurt.

I learned when I was very young that I had verbal quickness (or whatever you want to call it) beyond that of most of my friends. I could out-argue and out-insult them if I wanted to. I knew that I was "blessed" with a formidable tool that could be a weapon.

And I chose never to use it to hurt.

It is very difficult at times to bite back a comment that comes to mind, especially when someone has intentionally hurt me (such as my former inlaws), but I do.

You know, I was a sarcastic teenager as well. I didn't have your self-control, but I grew out of it. I am mostly just a mild smartass these days. However, I have a trained eye for snide and condescending, and I have seen plenty of both around here of late. And the aftermath of gloating is none the prettier.

80 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:01:02pm
81 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:01:24pm

re: #62 ploome hineni
Oh yeah, she can keep a grudge going for months. I doubt that there is one prolific poster here she has not taken on since November. I think she should worry about the "freshman fifteen" she took on the past two semesters and go the f away.
Not that you and I agree on everything all the time. But we're at least civil about it?

82 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:01:55pm

re: #74 ploome hineni

because you are a normal reasonable individual with no religious agenda

/whatsamatta wid you?

Or anti-religious, apparently. Good on ya.

/Crusades cut both ways

83 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:02:02pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

That's not the point. Never enter a sincere debate with the goal of changing your opponents mind. Explain why you believe what you believe and see if your opinion can stand the scrutiny. The people you respect are probably the most able to beat you in a debate. Sure, some people get pissed off and hold grudges but those people don't last here anyways. It's not a problem.

Both the abortion and evolution debates are based on emotion rather than logic and thought. No one really cares about the others views because we are emotionally locked into our own viewpoint. I prefer to pick my fights on subjects that I believe are important. I don't get chicks pregnant and my views on evolution and creationism are a mixed jumble of straight Darwin evolution and the glory of watching a sunset and knowing their is a larger hand at work than nature.

84 Dr. Shalit  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:02:07pm

re: #72 Mr. E. Train

"E-T" -

I think all 'y'all GOT THE PROGRAM!. That is all.

-S-

85 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:02:17pm

I understand the price of revealing the secrets of the universe. You don't have to explain.

86 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:02:18pm

re: #64 DesertSage

Is acting like an immature little brat by proclaiming that you're going to sneak into a movie theater to avoid paying for a product that you purchased considered "ethical" and "moral"?

Just asking.

Are you trying to trick me? Is that ethical and moral?

87 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:02:36pm
88 Catttt  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:03:30pm

OT - I think I fixed my power supply fan! :)

I used Dust Off with the little straw, through the grill. The first 10 shots or so, the fan didn't turn, and then it did. And I found a piece of some kind of masking tape, folded, lying inside the computer tower. The fan's turning now and not making that awful whining noise. :D

89 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:03:48pm

or un-alive, maybe?

90 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:03:59pm

re: #86 Sharmuta

Are you trying to trick me? Is that ethical and moral?

Nope, no trick. I just respect your opinion so I thought I'd ask.

91 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:04:00pm

re: #87 ploome hineni

matter that had never been alive cannot be considered dead

it can be considered inanimate though

What about the SNDT? How do you explain THAT!

Dead, alive, inanimate?

HA!

92 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:04:03pm

re: #79 OldLineTexan

You know, I was a sarcastic teenager as well. I didn't have your self-control, but I grew out of it. I am mostly just a mild smartass these days. However, I have a trained eye for snide and condescending, and I have seen plenty of both around here of late. And the aftermath of gloating is none the prettier.

I adore "smarta$$es"--they're clever and funny--but like you, I abhor the snide and condescending.

93 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:04:04pm
94 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:04:06pm

re: #76 Dr. Shalit

Please don't assume anything about my belief system. Nor does your comment address my point. I know plenty of non-Christians who have positive ethics and morals.

95 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:04:44pm
96 VegasRick  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:05:00pm

I am going back to tell the muslimes to fuck off some more. See ya'all later.

97 WindHorse  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:05:10pm

what happened to Lance?

98 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:05:34pm

The thing that gets me is that the threads posted over the last week or so are not at all about "creation v. evolution" in their intent, but are about debunking the suppositions of a certain film, pointing out the fallacy of claiming supernatural philosophies should somehow be considered as "science", and drawing attention to an organization that has been exposed as having a political agenda in promoting such fallacies.

Yet there still are those who insist on making each and everyone of those threads about nothing but "creation v. evolution".

99 greenmiler  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:05:48pm

re: #88 Catttt

OT - I think I fixed my power supply fan! :)

I used Dust Off with the little straw, through the grill. The first 10 shots or so, the fan didn't turn, and then it did. And I found a piece of some kind of masking tape, folded, lying inside the computer tower. The fan's turning now and not making that awful whining noise. :D


We used to put playing cards in our spokes

100 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:05:55pm

re: #88 Catttt

OT - I think I fixed my power supply fan! :)

I used Dust Off with the little straw, through the grill. The first 10 shots or so, the fan didn't turn, and then it did. And I found a piece of some kind of masking tape, folded, lying inside the computer tower. The fan's turning now and not making that awful whining noise. :D

You're lucky that's all that was in your fan.

101 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:05:59pm
102 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:06:01pm

re: #92 goddessoftheclassroom

I adore "smarta$$es"--they're clever and funny--but like you, I abhor the snide and condescending.

That was what they called me in my early twenties. I grew out of it, now I am considered "opinionated". I take it as a compliment....

103 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:06:01pm

I haven't been around for a few days, did Lance get banned? Or just a time out?

104 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:06:15pm

re: #97 WindHorse

what happened to Lance?


Too much whine. Got the stick.

105 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:06:45pm

re: #80 ploome hineni

I would tell you, but then, you know

(I would have to keeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel you)

Tell him!
/

106 WindHorse  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:06:45pm

10-4. Thanks.

107 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:07:38pm
108 laxmatt1984  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:07:39pm

Is the "turtles" part at the end a reference to the opening anecdote in Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time"?

109 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:07:56pm

I've been around for a while, but let me ask...When someone gets banned are we supposed to get all "Harry Potter" and call them, "They who must not be named"? Or is it just a fun liitle game that has evolved.

I don't know who got banned. I am clueless. (Normal for me.)

110 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:11pm

so what is buzzsawmonkey, chopped liver?

111 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:14pm
112 Catttt  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:30pm

re: #100 jcm

You're lucky that's all that was in your fan.

Call Snopes!

113 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:31pm

re: #90 DesertSage

Nope, no trick. I just respect your opinion so I thought I'd ask.

I would have thought you'd know me well enough by now to know what my answer would be.

But let me ask you something. Does it bother you that the agenda of the people at the discovery institute in injecting creationism into the classroom are doing it with the intent of students being "introduced to Jesus"?

114 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:31pm
115 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:54pm

re: #107 song_and_dance_man

I leave for thirty seconds, hit 'new comments', and the scroll bar shrinks to half its size!

116 Dr. Shalit  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:59pm

re: #94 Sharmuta

"Sharm" -

Agreed - AND - "Non-Christians" can be perfectly "Moral" which is why I mentioned "The Great Spirit" in my previous post.

-S-

117 Mr. E. Train  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:09:12pm

The only difference betwixt the atheist and the priest is the object of their faith. They both ardently believe in something that can not be proved.

Fine, no skin off of my nose.

As for me, I strongly suspect there is something that might be called God out there. My problem is that I dont think I trust he (it, whatever) always has my best interests at heart.

The priest believes he is there and implicitly trusts him. The atheists dismisses him out of hand. Im stuck kinda believing and at the same time not trusting. Truth be told, I envy them both.

118 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:09:16pm

I had around but I have to evolve / create clean little boys out of two dirty one.

Then create or evolve them from active terrors into sleeping angels.

BBL

119 jainphx  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:09:16pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Aah but can we be sure the Cardinal is speaking from reason. /

120 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:09:31pm
121 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:09:34pm

re: #97 WindHorse

what happened to Lance?

bad memes.

122 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:09:57pm

re: #101 song_and_dance_man

I wouldn't say the debate is silly, I would say that some of the attitudes that get shown during the debate are silly.

123 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:10:00pm

re: #110 itellu3times
Is he gone too?

124 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:10:09pm

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Is there such a thing as non-belief?

Since one cannot "prove" the existence of God, et al., then one must either believe there is a God or believe there is not a God. You are believing, trusting, having faith in your position either way.

125 elevenbravo1969  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:10:21pm

re: #101 song_and_dance_man


...if I die and discover there really is an afterlife...well, I'm just going to throw myself on the mercy of the court.

126 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:11:12pm
127 Catttt  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:11:19pm

I'm going to evolve over to my Vista machine, now that it's fixed. It, in my humble opinion, has a more intelligent design.

/smirk

128 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:11:21pm

re: #93 ploome hineni

not anti religious

anti ignorant

some people attempting to understand the Bible have approached it incorrectly

read Rashi

I've seen anti-religious much more often than I've seen anti-ignorant in the context of what we have been discussing. I know a bit of science myself, although to be fair more physics than biology by far. And, as a former rocket scientist, if I see that "theory of gravity" example trotted out and poorly explained one more time I am going to exhale dinner, so to speak.

Not here to debate the Bible, either.

129 Winslow  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:11:28pm

Like, wow.
Thank you, Charles.

130 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:12:00pm

Some Devo-lution.

131 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:12:24pm

re: #116 Dr. Shalit

Thanks for clarifying. :)

132 WindHorse  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:12:33pm

re: #129 Winslow

Thank you Winslow..... that is a nice piece of work!

133 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:12:37pm

re: #129 Winslow

You're awesome, Winslow!

134 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:12:52pm

re: #108 laxmatt1984

Turtles all the way down.

135 laxmatt1984  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:12:56pm

re: #129 Winslow

Is turtles a reference to "A Brief History of Time"?

136 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:13:26pm

re: #129 Winslow

Like, wow.
Thank you, Charles.

Congrats Winslow, your very own thread!

137 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:13:26pm

re: #97 WindHorse

what happened to Lance?

He got banned for pushing and pushing and pushing. Something was really up his nose. Some who would discuss him behind his back are now gloating.

Too bad, I liked the guy. And I liked some of the gloaters.

138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:13:46pm

re: #125 elevenbravo1969

...if I die and discover there really is an afterlife...well, I'm just going to throw myself on the mercy of the court.

Steve Martin:
Wouldn't it be funny if you died? And you went to heaven? And there were angels floating around and stuff? And you feel stupid?

And you say, "Hey I wasn't all that bad was I? I mean, how many times did I take the Lord's name in vain? (pause) Oh. That many. J.... C.... Oops!"

139 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:13:58pm

re: #124 Pater Coop


Since one cannot "prove" the existence of God, et al., then one must either believe there is a God or believe there is not a God. You are believing, trusting, having faith in your position either way.


To not believe something that can't be proven doesn't require faith.

140 ccoffer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:14:23pm

Its perverse (!?) to understand that Atheism is faith based?
Is it noble to say Atheism is based on science?

Stoopid rules the day. Pity the proud.

141 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:14:35pm

re: #129 Winslow
Good job! I always enjoy your poetry.

142 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:14:53pm

Turtles again: [Link: www.lostgarden.com...]

143 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:15:07pm

re: #123 Pvt Bin Jammin

Is he gone too?

I don't think so ... no, not blocked. Goodness. Just that he's done a ton of excellent parodies.

144 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:15:43pm

re: #142 jaunte

That;s nice.

145 laxmatt1984  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:15:59pm

In my googling, it seems one Supreme Court Justice Scalia has his own favorite turtles story:

"In our favored version, an Eastern guru affirms that the earth is supported on the back of a tiger. When asked what supports the tiger, he says it stands upon an elephant; and when asked what supports the elephant he says it is a giant turtle. When asked, finally, what supports the giant turtle, he is briefly taken aback, but quickly replies “Ah, after that it is turtles all the way down.”

[Link: www.law.cornell.edu...]

146 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:16:01pm

re: #137 OldLineTexan


Too bad, I liked the guy.


Me, too. I kinda had a feeling that he/she had some health issues of late.

147 buster bunny  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:16:22pm

I prefer the one about Billy Bob Shakespeare and his Oyster Gang.

I like the guy .. I think he'll go far with prose like that ....

besides .. i like oysters .. i'm biased.

148 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:16:29pm

re: #140 ccoffer

Its perverse (!?) to understand that Atheism is faith based?
Is it noble to say Atheism is based on science?

Stoopid rules the day. Pity the proud.

What is Scientology based upon, science or revenue. The facts speak for themself.

149 TrollBot PrtoType Six  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:16:40pm

re: #124 Pater Coop

Is there such a thing as non-belief?

Since one cannot "prove" the existence of God, et al., then one must either believe there is a God or believe there is not a God. You are believing, trusting, having faith in your position either way.

You are missing the third way with your two-way, either or thinking. Some of us really don't care one way or the other.

150 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:16:53pm

re: #129 Winslow

Fine work, Winslow.

BTW, have I seen your verses elsewhere on the 'net, or am I imagining things?

151 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:17:04pm

Another poem appropriate for this last week,
having celebrated the 60th anniversary if the State of Israel,
and having seen too many twist and abuse the commemoration,
for the love or appeasement of her enemies................
From Sir Walter Scott, c. 1820

Light of Israel

When Israel ,of the Lord beloved,
Out from the land of bondage came,
Her fathers' God before her moved,
An awful guide in smoke and flame.

By day, along the astonished lands
The cloudy pillar glided slow;
By night, Arabia's crimsoned sands
Returned the fiery column's glow.

There rose the choral hymn of praise,
And trump and timbrel answered keen,
And Zion's daughters poured their lays,
With priest's and warrior's voice between.

No portents now our foes amaze,
Forsaken Israel wanders lone;
Our fathers would not know Thy ways,
And Thou hast left them to their own.

But present still, though now unseen!
When brightly shines the prosperous day,
Be thoughts of Thee a cloudy screen
To temper the deceitful ray.

And oh, when stoops on Judah's path
In shade and storm the frequent night,
Be Thou long-suffering, slow to wrath,
A burning and a shining light!

Our harps we left by Babel's streams,
The tyrant's jest, the Gentile's scorn;
No censer round our altar beams,
And mute are timbrel, harp, and horn.

But Thou hast said The blood of goat,
The flesh of rams I will not prize;
A contrite heart, a humble thought,
Are Mine accepted sacrifice.

152 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:17:09pm
153 snowcrash  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:17:57pm

Does this make Winslow LGF's Poet Laureate?

154 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:18:49pm

Howdy there!

Okay: Show of hands, who considers themselves "atheist" or "agnostic" on this thread? Please identify which. Me: Atheist.

155 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:18:53pm

re: #101 song_and_dance_man

The debate is silly. There are too many unknowns on either side.

I don't think the debate is silly- I think it's been misconstrued, just like the people at discovery institute wanted it to be:

"The objective (of the wedge strategy) is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to 'the truth' of the Bible and then 'the question of sin' and finally 'introduced to Jesus.'"

156 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:19:27pm

re: #113 Sharmuta

But let me ask you something. Does it bother you that the agenda of the people at the discovery institute in injecting creationism into the classroom are doing it with the intent of students being "introduced to Jesus"?

Yes, if that is in fact what they're doing then it does bother me.

But that isn't where I'm coming from when I question the established dogma of secular evolutionists. What I wonder is why they are so afraid to even explore the possibility that at some point there may have been a creator who provided the conditions to make the origins of life possible to begin with.
I'm leaving religion out of this completely (in my mind). I want to explore where all these particles that came to our planet, the ones in the primordial soup, came from to begin with. It could have come from a creator....at least it's a possibility. I find that possibility very fascinating.

157 Truck Monkey  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:19:30pm

re: #148 LoFlyer

What is Scientology based upon, science or revenue. The facts speak for themself.

Faith in revenue.

158 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:19:32pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Atheist.
/we need more polls

159 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:19:50pm

re: #148 LoFlyer

What is Scientology based upon, science or revenue.

L. Ron Hubbard proving P.T. Barnum correct once and for all.

160 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:20:05pm

What is a poem but letters on a page? What is man but a swirl of electrons in empty space? Matter cannot give the words of a poem its meaning anymore than matter can give meaning to man. It is the abstract that gives meaning and existence to both. Destroy the paper that the poem is written on, or destroy the material substance that is mortal man, but the abstract of both remain. God.

161 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:20:39pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Ron Paul.

162 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:20:48pm

re: #157 Truck Monkey

Faith in revenue.

Hubbard was crazy like a fox!

163 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:21:35pm

re: #152 song_and_dance_man

Science is the discovery of the machinations of Creation.

Well said. I have no doubt that God leads science to discovery. Whether or not that scientist believes in God is irrelevant and God isn't going to tell us how to interpret scientific discovery. He doesn't need to. It is what it is.

164 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:21:45pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader
* crickets *

165 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:21:52pm

re: #153 snowcrash

Does this make Winslow LGF's Poet Laureate?

Seconded!

Every good blog forum should have its resident poet.

(On that note, check out lyle at Tim Blair's when you get the chance. A born wit.)

166 Cartman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:21:54pm

Ah, it's the Groundhog Day thread topic, once again!

167 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:21:59pm

re: #161 jaunte

Ron Paul.

BOOO! Get thee to BANNED CAMP!

168 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:22:03pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Christian (or was I supposed to answer).

169 jainphx  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:22:22pm

re: #101 song_and_dance_man

So true, I have my own convictions and nothing can change that, but some one please explain the eye, how did this intricate body part happen.

170 laxmatt1984  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:22:40pm

Methodist (you know, a Baptist who can read)

171 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:22:51pm

re: #164 EC Marm

* crickets *

You worship crickets?

Well... that's cool, baby, if that's your bag.

172 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:22:59pm

re: #170 laxmatt1984

Ha!

173 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:23:02pm

re: #139 Killgore Trout

Respectfully, I repeat: there is no such thing as "to not believe." You can say, "I believe that something is," or, you can say, "I believe that something is not."

174 Pent.  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:23:41pm
Methodist (you know, a Baptist who can read)


Just what we needed in a thread like this: some denominational sparring!

175 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:23:47pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Howdy there!

Okay: Show of hands, who considers themselves "atheist" or "agnostic" on this thread? Please identify which. Me: Atheist.

How about "dazed" or "confused"? Me.

176 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:23:55pm

re: #168 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Christian (or was I supposed to answer).

YOU RUINED IT!

Seriously, no, I was asking atheist/agnostic only for a reason (just curious about rough representation at this blog), but all may chime in, naturally.

177 laxmatt1984  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:24:18pm

Oh come now, that's an old joke.

What is a Methodist?
A Methodist is a Baptist who can read.
What is a Presbyterian?
A Presbyterian is nothing more than a rich Methodist.
What is an Episcopalian?
An Episcopalian is just a Catholic who flunked Latin.

178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:24:28pm

I am beginning to lose my faith in the Celtics (just for tonight). Does that count for anything?

179 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:24:31pm

re: #167 Occasional Reader

BOOO! Get thee to BANNED CAMP!


That's not fair! Every LGF poll, even a simple "show of hands", must have "Ron Paul" as an option or Charles will get hate mail.

Agnostic, fwiw.

180 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:24:36pm

re: #170 laxmatt1984

Methodist (you know, a Baptist who can read)

You mean sing. I grew up attending a Methodist church but became Episcopalian in college, but I still think the Methodist hymnal is the best.

181 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:24:47pm

re: #173 Pater Coop

there is no such thing as "to not believe."


Sure there is. Do you believe that I'm 10 feet tall and purple? I'll bet you don't.

182 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:11pm

re: #181 Killgore Trout

Sure there is. Do you believe that I'm 10 feet tall and purple? I'll bet you don't.

You mean you're not?

183 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:11pm

re: #178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am beginning to lose my faith in the Celtics (just for tonight). Does that count for anything?

Then you can still believe in the King James alternative.

184 Winslow  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:36pm

Thank you all, gentle readers.

185 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:43pm

re: #177 laxmatt1984

LOL!

186 TrollBot PrtoType Six  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:44pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Howdy there!

Okay: Show of hands, who considers themselves "atheist" or "agnostic" on this thread? Please identify which. Me: Atheist.

apathetic agnostic

187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:47pm

re: #183 itellu3times

Well played.

188 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:53pm

re: #173 Pater Coop

there is no such thing as "to not believe."


I don't believe that.
/Missed the obvious joke earlier

189 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:26:05pm

re: #173 Pater Coop

Respectfully, I repeat: there is no such thing as "to not believe." You can say, "I believe that something is," or, you can say, "I believe that something is not."

Killgore's point is that atheism is not (or need not) be based on faith. As that word is used with respect to religious belief, "faith" means belief without regard to evidence. That is (generally) not the atheist's position.

190 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:26:14pm

re: #184 Winslow

Thank you all, gentle readers.

You're most welcome!

191 Pent.  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:26:26pm

re: #180 goddessoftheclassroom

You mean sing. I grew up attending a Methodist church but became Episcopalian in college, but I still think the Methodist hymnal is the best.

Yeah, well us Lutherans can...well...have some mad pot luck dinners...

192 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:26:33pm

re: #156 DesertSage

Have you read the wedge document? Have you seen the other statements by it's author (one of which I quoted above)? Have you read the court case the discovery institute was involved in?

193 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:26:42pm

re: #170 laxmatt1984

Methodist (you know, a Baptist who can read)

Nice.
/

194 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:26:53pm

re: #179 Spiny Norman

Agnostic, fwiw.

And how do you define "agnostic" for your purposes?

195 The Shadow Do  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:27:32pm

Strikes me as true that had God created a literal first man and first woman as tradition describes that the whole of creation and subsequent fall from grace teaching exercise would be pretty pointless. If God had wanted things so literal, so obvious, and so fundamental as to his existence would he not have made such things incredibly obvious?

"Hello! God here! get with the program people!"

This mystery will be solved, or ignored, forever.

196 TrollBot PrtoType Six  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:27:56pm

re: #178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am beginning to lose my faith in the Celtics (just for tonight). Does that count for anything?

Shit,I lost faith in the Vikings a long time ago.

197 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:28:27pm

re: #173 Pater Coop

Respectfully, I repeat: there is no such thing as "to not believe." You can say, "I believe that something is," or, you can say, "I believe that something is not."

Don't go runnin' that there formal logic in on folks!

198 snowcrash  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:28:44pm

OMG, Charles didn't even start it this time! LOL

199 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:28:49pm

My real problem with Hubbard and Scientology is that Hubbard deliberately created a "religion" for the sole purpose of making big bucks and satisfying his huge ego at the price of hundreds of thousands of humans led down a mental highway that offers few solutions, but incurs tremendous debt upon the individual and huge profits for the Scientologists. Name one other religion that you have to pay to participate in. Germany is absolutely correct to deny Scientology as a religion....

200 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:28:50pm

re: #176 Occasional Reader

just curious about rough representation at this blog


Plenty of rough representation at this blog, a little less since %u0250%u0279%u028E%u0250%u0279 got the stick. Uh, what was the question again?

201 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:28:58pm

re: #187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well played.

My Lakers lost last night, boohoo.

202 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:29:17pm
203 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:29:53pm

re: #178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am beginning to lose my faith in the Celtics (just for tonight). Does that count for anything?

I lost my faith in the Lakers last night. Maybe they will redeem themselves tomorrow.

204 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:29:58pm

re: #196 TrollBot PrtoType Six

Shit,I lost faith in the Vikings a long time ago.

Take heart!

205 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:30:11pm

re: #191 Pent.

Yeah, well us Lutherans can...well...have some mad pot luck dinners...

Just don't ever desecrate the lutefisk.

206 jainphx  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:30:45pm

re: #168 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm with you.

207 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:31:04pm

re: #204 MandyManners

Take heart!

LOL!

208 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:31:33pm

re: #199 LoFlyer

My real problem with Hubbard and Scientology is that Hubbard deliberately created a "religion" for the sole purpose of making big bucks and satisfying his huge ego at the price of hundreds of thousands of humans led down a mental highway that offers few solutions, but incurs tremendous debt upon the individual and huge profits for the Scientologists. Name one other religion that you have to pay to participate in. Germany is absolutely correct to deny Scientology as a religion....

I disagree. A free nation allows people to choose their paths of conscience.

209 snowcrash  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:31:58pm

I lost my faith in the Dallas Stars. 2nd loss to Detroit Redwings.

210 Pent.  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:32:00pm

re: #205 Spiny Norman

Just don't ever desecrate the lutefisk.

Military efforts to stabilize the violent ethnic Protestantism of the region have had a mixed record of success.

That is a sentence you don't read very often.

211 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:32:10pm
212 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:32:31pm

re: #202 song_and_dance_man

OK! We are getting somewhere! Please read the links I provided to DesertSage in #192 to better understand the agenda of the "scientific theists" that I feel is really the issue here.

213 thelongblogger  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:32:35pm

re: #165 Spiny Norman

Seconded!

Every good blog forum should have its resident poet.

(On that note, check out lyle at Tim Blair's when you get the chance. A born wit.)

Amen!

/runs and hides

214 Catttt  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:32:48pm

I really admire anyone who can write poetry. I can barely hack out a haiku. My favorite, which I did not write, of course (Peter Rothman did):

Windows NT crashed.
I am the Blue Screen of Death.
No one hears your screams.

Haiku Error Messsages

215 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:32:51pm

re: #189 Occasional Reader

Killgore's point is that atheism is not (or need not) be based on faith. As that word is used with respect to religious belief, "faith" means belief without regard to evidence. That is (generally) not the atheist's position.

If you believe in something based on theory, not on fact...then your belief system is faith based. Period.

216 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:33:21pm

re: #173 Pater Coop

Respectfully, I repeat: there is no such thing as "to not believe." You can say, "I believe that something is," or, you can say, "I believe that something is not."

There is of course at least one other option: "I *believe* that Phenomenon X is insufficiently defined, in a coherent fashion, so as to be able to have a meaningful discussion of 'belief' in, or 'proof' of, Phenomenon X."

217 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:34:08pm

re: #210 Pent.

That is a sentence you don't read very often.

Neither is this one:

...weekend demonstrations by rock- and figurine-throwing Lutheran farm wives that left over 200 people injured and leveled the Whippy Dip dairy freeze.

Made Iowahawk a parody superstar, that post did.

218 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:34:14pm

re: #189 Occasional Reader

I am trying to understand you. Did you say that faith is defined as a belief that disregards evidence?

219 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:34:18pm

re: #156 DesertSage

I want to explore where all these particles that came to our planet, the ones in the primordial soup, came from to begin with. It could have come from a creator....at least it's a possibility. I find that possibility very fascinating.

I quote this not because I want to pick your text apart, but because it's something I think everyone, myself included, has had occasion to ponder on more than once.

With that said, the proposition of a Creator, Intelligent Designer, or any other concepts of the supernatural, falls strictly into the realms of philosophy and/or theology, and has no reasonable right whatsoever to claim a place within the realm of science.

220 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:34:58pm

re: #215 DesertSage

If you believe in something based on theory, not on fact...then your belief system is faith based. Period.

The "theory is the opposite of fact" talking point has been rebutted enough times in these threads that I'm just not gonna bother doing it again.

221 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:35:05pm

re: #208 MandyManners

I disagree. A free nation allows people to choose their paths of conscience.

As well as everything else.

I was thinking this afternoon about those who succeeded in getting McDonald's to change their frying oil.

Why couldn't they just choose not to eat McDonald's? I don't eat there very often, but I miss the way the fries used to taste.

I'm all for the right to protest and insisting on getting information out to the public, but I can't stand others dictating how I have to live.

222 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:35:44pm

re: #215 DesertSage

If you believe in something based on theory, not on fact...then your belief system is faith based. Period.

No, I don't think so. Kierkegaard says faith in God is not to be based on logic, but belief in something absent evidence or against evidence is not a religious thing, it is a hypothesis that one hopes later to prove.

Belief in wacky theories is not faith.

Shall I illustrate?

Ron Paul.

223 jainphx  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:36:46pm

re: #209 snowcrash

Yea Wings.

224 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:36:55pm

re: #218 Pater Coop

I am trying to understand you. Did you say that faith is defined as a belief that disregards evidence?

As used to describe religious faith (generally, in the Western tradition); yes.

Of course we use "faith" more loosely in other, secular ways... I have "faith" that when I turn my key in the ignition my car will start, but what that means is that I have enough EVIDENCE that it does so reliably.

225 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:01pm

re: #214 Catttt

I really admire anyone who can write poetry. I can barely hack out a haiku. My favorite, which I did not write, of course (Peter Rothman did):

Windows NT crashed.
I am the Blue Screen of Death.
No one hears your screams.

Haiku Error Messsages

Here's one from me to you:

The motherboard burned.
A stalled fan is the root cause.
Get out the checkbook.

226 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:02pm

re: #214 Catttt

That one is my favorite! I love those, but I'd lost my link to them years ago. Thanks for posting!

227 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:09pm

re: #222 itellu3times

I correct myself: I think the proper statement is that belief in God is to be based on faith, requires faith. Faith does not justify it - it does not need justifying!

228 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:18pm

re: #221 goddessoftheclassroom

As well as everything else.

I was thinking this afternoon about those who succeeded in getting McDonald's to change their frying oil.

Why couldn't they just choose not to eat McDonald's? I don't eat there very often, but I miss the way the fries used to taste.

I'm all for the right to protest and insisting on getting information out to the public, but I can't stand others dictating how I have to live.

Yep. Taking the beef tallow out made them as bland as everyone else's.

229 tripletdad  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:24pm

Creators need creators?

230 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:46pm

re: #208 MandyManners

I disagree. A free nation allows people to choose their paths of conscience.


Sorry Mandy, can't agree with you. Yes a free nation allows those to choose their own path, I strongly disagree with Germany and Austria's thought control laws regarding holocaust denial. I do agree that scientology is like no other in modern history in their pursuit of revenue (I suspect that they learned something from the Catholic church which owns huge assets donated through the ages....)

231 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:53pm

re: #229 tripletdad

Creators need creators?

Nope, and that's pretty much their best trick!

232 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:38:38pm

re: #221 goddessoftheclassroom

As well as everything else.

I was thinking this afternoon about those who succeeded in getting McDonald's to change their frying oil.

Why couldn't they just choose not to eat McDonald's? I don't eat there very often, but I miss the way the fries used to taste.

I'm all for the right to protest and insisting on getting information out to the public, but I can't stand others dictating how I have to live.

Wanna'be dictators!

233 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:38:42pm

re: #181 Killgore Trout

Sure there is. Do you believe that I'm 10 feet tall and purple? I'll bet you don't.

I do! Now sell me some expensive tap water!
/

234 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:05pm

re: #192 Sharmuta

Have you read the wedge document? Have you seen the other statements by it's author (one of which I quoted above)? Have you read the court case the discovery institute was involved in?

I understand the apprehensions you have toward the ID people when when it comes to agendas like they have.
That's not where I'm coming from. That's not where I'm at.

I'm well beyond agendas. I'm well beyond debating whether species evolved or not. Science has proven that there has been evolution on this planet. That is a fact. Like I said before, I'm looking out into the universe. I want to know whether there's someone or something out there who created all of these conditions for evolution to occur in the first place. Evolution, for me, is just the end game.

235 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:15pm

re: #227 itellu3times

I correct myself: I think the proper statement is that belief in God is to be based on faith, requires faith. Faith does not justify it - it does not need justifying!

Faith is not a belief that disregards evidence, but one that does not require it. "Evidence" is irrelevant.

236 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:15pm

re: #221 goddessoftheclassroom

My wife loves McDonalds fries...got some today...BITCHED ABOUT THEM FOR AN HOUR.

It would make me said if she stopped eating at McDonalds.

/

237 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:19pm

re: #208 MandyManners

I disagree. A free nation allows people to choose their paths of conscience.

Yes, but... it's also perfectly legitimate for a free society to ban outright fraud. So, the discussion question would be, whether Scientology fits that description.

238 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:28pm

re: #63 Jay777

How did the first unliving substance obtain "life"?

I'd ask a prion, but I don't understand their language.

239 greenmiler  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:32pm

re: #215 DesertSage

If you believe in something based on theory, not on fact...then your belief system is faith based. Period.

It must be faith based because atheism (there is no god)cannot be proven

240 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:58pm

re: #228 Spiny Norman

Yep. Taking the beef tallow out made them as bland as everyone else's.

KRYSTAL ROCKS!

241 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:40:05pm

re: #228 Spiny Norman

Yep. Taking the beef tallow out made them as bland as everyone else's.

eeeeeew.

242 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:40:22pm

re: #229 tripletdad

Creators need creators?

Or, an explanation for how it can be that they had no prime cause themselves.

243 DixieLou  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:40:33pm

re: #74 ploome hineni

because you are a normal reasonable individual with no religious agenda

/whatsamatta wid you?

Actually, in the 19th century the theology for most protestants was fixed that God might have created by evolution. This controversy is new and I am not sure why.

I believe it might be perhaps that there are more dedicated Christians that are scientists than formerly and that sweeping discoveries in DNA and along those lines have led these people to rethink the whole subject.

244 Cartman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:40:49pm

re: #221 goddessoftheclassroom

I'm all for the right to protest and insisting on getting information out to the public, but I can't stand others dictating how I have to live.

I have a feeling we're just now encountering the tip of the iceberg on that.

245 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:40:59pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Catholic, you know, the one everybody else in the West splintered off from.

246 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:41:35pm

re: #209 snowcrash

I lost my faith in the Dallas Stars. 2nd loss to Detroit Redwings.

And my faith in the Wings is confirmed. They won w/o Franzen.

247 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:41:44pm

re: #230 LoFlyer

Sorry Mandy, can't agree with you. Yes a free nation allows those to choose their own path, I strongly disagree with Germany and Austria's thought control laws regarding holocaust denial. I do agree that scientology is like no other in modern history in their pursuit of revenue (I suspect that they learned something from the Catholic church which owns huge assets donated through the ages....)

Isn't freedom all about letting the individual make her/his choices and live with the consequences?

248 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:42:05pm

re: #235 Spiny Norman

Faith is not a belief that disregards evidence, but one that does not require it. "Evidence" is irrelevant.

Yes, I agree. That was my original definition above, I mistakenly said "yes" to Pater's "disregards?" question.

249 snowcrash  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:42:09pm

re: #246 Honorary Yooper
They are looking like winners!

250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:42:46pm

G'night Mary Ellen!

251 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:42:58pm

re: #224 Occasional Reader

I am really not trying to be tedious, but could you please define "evidence." That word may get bandied about a bit too loosely as well, I am afraid.

252 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:43:53pm

re: #240 MandyManners

KRYSTAL ROCKS!

Went into a Krystal several months ago during lunch hour. One person at the register, one at the drive-through and one running the grill. People making huge orders for 36 burgers at a time, waited 10 minutes and lost patience. Didn't eat lunch that day....

253 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:43:56pm

re: #232 MandyManners

re: #221 goddessoftheclassroom

As well as everything else.

I was thinking this afternoon about those who succeeded in getting McDonald's to change their frying oil.

Why couldn't they just choose not to eat McDonald's? I don't eat there very often, but I miss the way the fries used to taste.

I'm all for the right to protest and insisting on getting information out to the public, but I can't stand others dictating how I have to live.

Wanna'be dictators!

Driving saturated animal fats out of the marketplace, with government support, and replacing them with supposedly "healthy" hydrogenated vegetable oils, was the beginning of the overbearing Nanny State.

Beware the "creeping incrementalism".

254 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:44:02pm
255 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:44:43pm

re: #237 Occasional Reader

Yes, but... it's also perfectly legitimate for a free society to ban outright fraud. So, the discussion question would be, whether Scientology fits that description.

Couldn't an atheist claim that all religions are fraudulent bent on making people ignore their materially poor lives in exchange for a better future in Heaven?

*Paging Herr Marx. Paging Herr Marx.*

256 tripletdad  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:45:24pm

re: #231 itellu3times

...but Creation (i.e. the physical Universe) does not need a Creator, nor does it indicate their actually IS a Creator.

/is that what he's saying?

257 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:46:34pm

re: #234 DesertSage

Okay, Sage. I can respect that.

Perhaps I'm just too concerned about the state of education in this country. Perhaps I'm too concerned about people from various political ideologies attempting to usurp the Constitution. Perhaps I'm secure enough in my faith to not be beyond this agenda.

258 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:46:42pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Howdy there!

Okay: Show of hands, who considers themselves "atheist" or "agnostic" on this thread? Please identify which. Me: Atheist.

Nietzsche said God was dead. God says Nietzsche is dead. Euripides said that those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. Nietzsche died after 12 long years of insanity. So I say, Don't f--- with the Gods.

259 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:46:55pm

re: #252 LoFlyer

Went into a Krystal several months ago during lunch hour. One person at the register, one at the drive-through and one running the grill. People making huge orders for 36 burgers at a time, waited 10 minutes and lost patience. Didn't eat lunch that day....

The vagaries of retail can really suck.

I love their itsy-bitsy burgers. Between two and an order of fries, I'm full.

260 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:47:08pm

re: #254 song_and_dance_man

I still want to see a monk-moeba.

261 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:47:17pm

re: #255 MandyManners

Couldn't an atheist claim that all religions are fraudulent bent on making people ignore their materially poor lives in exchange for a better future in Heaven?

If one followed that logic to an absurd extreme. Like Herr Marx.

262 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:47:26pm

re: #218 Pater Coop

I am trying to understand you. Did you say that faith is defined as a belief that disregards evidence?

I know you didn't ask me, but IMO faith is defined as a belief in things that can't be evidenced.

263 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:47:54pm

re: #254 song_and_dance_man

okay....can you stick it in your favorites and read it later, maybe?

264 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:48:22pm

re: #247 MandyManners

Isn't freedom all about letting the individual make her/his choices and live with the consequences?

I agree but don't we also have laws protecting consumers against fraud? This is the same thing. Scientology hides behind religion but is nothing less than a confidance game or a scam. L. Ron Hubbard lived his last years on a luxurious yacht because of scientologies tax evasion issues. A man without a country.....

265 pat  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:48:33pm

There is no Mother's Day in Islam. There are only days of hate, masquerading as bloodthirsty joy.

266 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:48:53pm

re: #253 Spiny Norman

Driving saturated animal fats out of the marketplace, with government support, and replacing them with supposedly "healthy" hydrogenated vegetable oils, was the beginning of the overbearing Nanny State.

Beware the "creeping incrementalism".

GRAMSCIAN WHORES, THE LOT OF THEM!

The Nanny State began before then. I don't know exactly what was the start but, it wasn't with the fat wars.

267 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:49:22pm

Tawk amongst yahselves for few minutes... back soon.

268 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:49:41pm

re: #254 song_and_dance_man

It's Saturday night and I don't want to read a lot of text. Let me say this so you know where I stand. When I say Evolutionist I refer to those who hold to the theory that life evolves in some form. But not in the same fashion as those who say that we came from monkeys or her distant cousin the amoeba. Environmental mutation is my evolution, if you will.

What I do object to is the Big Bangers. The 'all this came from nothing' crowd.

Campbell's soup!

269 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:51:00pm

re: #264 LoFlyer

Years ago my wife worked for a company that was eaten from the inside by Scientology. The 'pre-clear' interviews they conduct are rich in blackmail material, and the president of her company got hooked and kept paying into the con.

270 mama winger  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:51:02pm

I have a splitting headache.

But let me tell you a bedtime story.

When LW was five years old, we were helping him learn to ride a two-wheeler. He was finally getting the hang of it. So we let him start at one end of the street and ride toward us. About three quarters of the way, he started to wobble. He tried to catch himself. His foot got tangled up in the spokes of the back wheel somehow. We watched as his ankle twisted, then we heard the sound of the bone breaking. He crashed to the street.

I ran over to him in a panic , and he stood up. I examined his foot was but it was not injured in any way. We couldn't understand it.

I said, "Doesn't your foot hurt?" He said, "No. That man held my foot and fixed it right away. Where did he go?"

271 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:51:34pm

re: #263 Sharmuta

okay....can you stick it in your favorites and read it later, maybe?

I'll definitely bookmark them and read them later. As far as research goes, you are unrivaled in that arena.
You keep people honest....we need more Sharmuta's!

272 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:51:45pm

re: #262 Slumbering Behemoth

I know you didn't ask me, but IMO faith is defined as a belief in things that can't be evidenced.

Okay. I give up. What is IMO? Someone? Anyone?

273 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:51:50pm

re: #240 MandyManners

KRYSTAL ROCKS!

There doesn't appear to be any locations further west than Texas.
Ah, well...

If I eat at a burger joint, I usually go to Carl's Jr. and have "seasoned criss-cut" fries. With a side of Ranch dressing.

274 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:51:58pm

re: #261 Spiny Norman

If one followed that logic to an absurd extreme. Like Herr Marx.

So, who is to make the decision that one religion is okay but, another is not?

While I have no love for Scientology, I do not want to see it outlawed.

275 Ning the Merciless  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:52:20pm

re: #50 DesertSage

Well I really hate this whole argument because it is really just bullshit semantics. It is trying to drive a wedge and create hatred between Theists and Atheists. The Theist says Atheism is a religion because they cannot absolutely prove that there is no God and therefore they are relying on "faith" to hold their beliefs in the non-existence of God. On the other hand most Atheists I think look at the world from a skeptical and naturalistic point of view. They are merely saying "Assuming everything human religious thought is considered biased and unusable testimony - what evidence is there for the origins of the universe and life?" An honest review of our accumulated scientific knowledge will reveal no evidence of a deity, a supreme being or any other godlings in any facet of the universe. Certainly there are things still unknown - but replacing the concept of "Unknown" with the concept "God" is not really a useful or justified response.
I suggest those of you who are creationists and ready for an Intellectual Bitch Slapping feel free to follow this link to a series of 24 short videos on YouTube entitled "Why do People Laugh at Creationists"

276 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:52:41pm

re: #259 MandyManners

The vagaries of retail can really suck.

I love their itsy-bitsy burgers. Between two and an order of fries, I'm full.

Little Krystals steamed and greased are wonderful! My grandmother lived about three blocks from the Krystal HQ in Chattanooga, TN during the 60's. They had a Krystal right next to the HQ and you can bet service and product was excellent.....

277 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:52:44pm

i'm glad you all believe as you do. that's the good thing abt this country.

278 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:52:45pm

re: #270 mama winger

I have a splitting headache.

But let me tell you a bedtime story.

When LW was five years old, we were helping him learn to ride a two-wheeler. He was finally getting the hang of it. So we let him start at one end of the street and ride toward us. About three quarters of the way, he started to wobble. He tried to catch himself. His foot got tangled up in the spokes of the back wheel somehow. We watched as his ankle twisted, then we heard the sound of the bone breaking. He crashed to the street.

I ran over to him in a panic , and he stood up. I examined his foot was but it was not injured in any way. We couldn't understand it.

I said, "Doesn't your foot hurt?" He said, "No. That man held my foot and fixed it right away. Where did he go?"

You gave me chills (the good kind).

{mama winger}

279 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:52:46pm

re: #272 katemaclaren

In
My
Opinion

280 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:52:53pm

re: #264 LoFlyer

I agree but don't we also have laws protecting consumers against fraud? This is the same thing. Scientology hides behind religion but is nothing less than a confidance game or a scam. L. Ron Hubbard lived his last years on a luxurious yacht because of scientologies tax evasion issues. A man without a country.....

There are many who would point to the pope and say the same thing.

281 steve  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:53:06pm

Hmm, I wonder. If I put all the parts for a Hummer into a container and blew it up would I get a fully operational Hummer?

282 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:53:11pm

re: #270 mama winger

Did that happen to you?

283 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:53:14pm

re: #269 jaunte

Years ago my wife worked for a company that was eaten from the inside by Scientology. The 'pre-clear' interviews they conduct are rich in blackmail material, and the president of her company got hooked and kept paying into the con.

Like zombies eating its brain?!?

=^0

284 pat  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:53:26pm

re: #270 mama winger

My daughters first excursion ended at a neighbors post box. Went down hard. lol. She never could master a stick shift. Genius IQ.

285 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:53:44pm

re: #265 pat

There is no Mother's Day in Islam. There are only days of hate, masquerading as bloodthirsty joy.

MOTHERS ROCK!

286 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:09pm

re: #273 Spiny Norman

There doesn't appear to be any locations further west than Texas.
Ah, well...

If I eat at a burger joint, I usually go to Carl's Jr. and have "seasoned criss-cut" fries. With a side of Ranch dressing.

For some reason, I loathe anything on fries but salt. Mebbe' I just like the taters.

287 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:10pm

re: #181 Killgore Trout

My point exactly! So, you do agree that there is no such thing as "non-belief"?

288 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:12pm

re: #279 OldLineTexan

In
My
Opinion

Oh thank you OldLine Texan!
I would NEVER have figured that out. Are you in Texas? This is my favorite time of year there--when all the wildflowers are blooming.

289 pat  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:18pm

re: #285 MandyManners

MOTHERS ROCK!

Osso Bucco for the mothers in my family. White rice. Coconut cream pie.

290 WindHorse  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:24pm

Mama Winger

Thanks for the story. I hope you get some good rest tonight and have a peaceful, happy Mother's Day!

291 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:32pm

I have a question! Would anybody find objection with this?:

Phase I is the essential component of everything that comes afterward. Without solid scholarship, research and argument, the project would be just another attempt to indoctrinate instead of persuade. A lesson we have learned from the history of islam is that it is unnecessary to outnumber the opposing establishment. islamic revolutions are usually staged by an initially small and relatively young group of islamists who are not blinded by the prevailing prejudices and who are able to do creative work at the pressure points, that is, on those critical issues upon which whole systems of thought hinge. So, in Phase I we are supporting vital witting and research at the sites most likely to crack the democracy edifice.

Phase II. The primary purpose of Phase II is to prepare the popular reception of our ideas. The best and truest research can languish unread and unused unless it is properly publicized. For this reason we seek to cultivate and convince influential individuals in print and broadcast media, as well as think tank leaders, scientists and academics, congressional staff, talk show hosts, college and seminary presidents and faculty, future talent and potential academic allies. Because of his long tenure in politics, journalism and public policy, cair chairman Parvez Ahmed brings to the project rare knowledge and acquaintance of key op-ed writers, journalists, and political leaders. This combination of islamic and scholarly expertise and media and political connections makes the Wedge unique, and also prevents it from being "merely academic." Other activities include production of a PBS documentary on islam and its implications, and popular op-ed publishing. Alongside a focus on influential opinion-makers, we also seek to build up a popular base of support among our natural constituency, namely, muslims. We will do this primarily through apologetics seminars. We intend these to encourage and equip believers with new islamic evidence's [sic!] that support the faith, as well as to "popularize" our ideas in the broader culture.

Phase III. Once our research and writing have had time to mature, and the public prepared for the reception of dawa'h, we will move toward direct confrontation with the advocates of democracy through challenge conferences in significant academic settings. We will also pursue possible legal assistance in response to resistance to the integration of islam into public school science curricula. The attention, publicity, and influence of islam should draw democratic idealists into open debate with islamists, and we will be ready. With an added emphasis to the social sciences and humanities, we will begin to address the specific social consequences of democracy and the American theory that supports it in the political sciences.

292 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:40pm

re: #274 MandyManners

So, who is to make the decision that one religion is okay but, another is not?

While I have no love for Scientology, I do not want to see it outlawed.

Mandy, Scientology is not a religion, it is a fraud and a scam perpertrated by one of the smartest science fiction writers in the business. Free thought is one thing, fraud is another.

293 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:57pm

re: #274 MandyManners

So, who is to make the decision that one religion is okay but, another is not?

While I have no love for Scientology, I do not want to see it outlawed.

Neither do I, but I have no problem with public criticism of its methods or, more importantly, denunciations of its attempts to intimidate and silence such criticisms.

294 mama winger  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:00pm

re: #282 katemaclaren

Did that happen to you?

Yes. More exactly, to my son as I was watching.

295 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:02pm

re: #283 Spiny Norman

It was very creepy! The new Scientology employees had this arch jargon they used with each other, calling potential troublemakers 'squirrels.'

296 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:06pm

re: #258 katemaclaren

Nietzsche said God was dead. God says Nietzsche is dead. Euripides said that those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. Nietzsche died after 12 long years of insanity. So I say, Don't f--- with the Gods.

So often the comment is heard that Nietzsche said that God was dead, but few have read the source of that comment. It is a deeper and more astute observation of the human condition then it is given credit for.

The Parable of the Madman

A Youtube reading of the above.

297 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:12pm

re: #275 Ning the Merciless

I suggest that you kiss my ass.

298 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:30pm

re: #275 Ning the Merciless

Well, I suggest you read Mama Wingers #270. Tell her that there's no God.

...and you wonder why people laugh at atheists

299 mama winger  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:50pm

re: #290 WindHorse

Mama Winger

Thanks for the story. I hope you get some good rest tonight and have a peaceful, happy Mother's Day!

Thank you, and goodnight.

Happy Mother's Day to all if I don't see you before then !

300 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:50pm

re: #291 Sharmuta

Excellent way to put it, Shar.

301 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:57:01pm

re: #276 LoFlyer

Little Krystals steamed and greased are wonderful! My grandmother lived about three blocks from the Krystal HQ in Chattanooga, TN during the 60's. They had a Krystal right next to the HQ and you can bet service and product was excellent.....

Oh, the steaminess of it all! And, those itsy-bitsy onions!

302 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:57:06pm

re: #288 katemaclaren

Oh thank you OldLine Texan!
I would NEVER have figured that out. Are you in Texas? This is my favorite time of year there--when all the wildflowers are blooming.

Yes, and the flower show is just about over. Getting hot and humid (i.e., summer) here just past the Coastal Prairie.

303 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:58:37pm

re: #262 Slumbering Behemoth

What is your definition of "evidence"?

304 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:58:59pm

re: #291 Sharmuta

Well you can bet our Universities are buying into phase three and the Suadi grants accompanying the phase.....

305 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:59:09pm

re: #224 Occasional Reader

You say that in the Western tradition faith is defined as "a belief that disregards evidence."
Augustine? Anselm? Thomas Aquinas? Grosseteste? Abelard? Bonaventure?
Origen? Cyprian? Scotus? John Damascene? Luther? Calvin?
Who? Not even radical fideists like Barth or Kierkegaard would ever "disregard evidence."
Get thee to a nunnery and read Benedict's Regensburg address! (For starters.)

306 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:59:32pm

re: #300 Honorary Yooper

Thanks, Yooper.

307 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:59:37pm
308 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:59:58pm

re: #289 pat

Osso Bucco for the mothers in my family. White rice. Coconut cream pie.

The Kid saved his money for a very, very long time to give me cash to buy a new purse. I can't buy Coach with it but, it's the thought that counts.

309 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:59:59pm
310 yochanan  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:00:18pm

i am not bothered by some one who says there is no g-d but i am bothered by those who make a religion out of it.

311 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:00:37pm

i don't even believe in god, and i know there's a god, folks.

312 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:01:01pm

re: #292 LoFlyer

Mandy, Scientology is not a religion, it is a fraud and a scam perpertrated by one of the smartest science fiction writers in the business. Free thought is one thing, fraud is another.

Well, why not oultaw Islam?!

313 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:01:26pm

re: #293 Spiny Norman

Neither do I, but I have no problem with public criticism of its methods or, more importantly, denunciations of its attempts to intimidate and silence such criticisms.

Mockery!

314 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:01:34pm

re: #307 ploome hineni

myfirst car was an NSU Prinz, 4 on the floor

while learning to shift gears,I brokethe universaljoint

......try finding an universal joint for an NSU Prinz

did you ever get the gist of shifting?

315 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:01:43pm

re: #310 yochanan

i am not bothered by some one who says there is no g-d but i am bothered by those who make a religion out of it.

I'm even more bothered by those Lizards who seem to enjoy insulting and belittling those of us who do believe.

316 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:01:59pm

re: #230 LoFlyer

Sorry Mandy, can't agree with you. Yes a free nation allows those to choose their own path, I strongly disagree with Germany and Austria's thought control laws regarding holocaust denial. I do agree that scientology is like no other in modern history in their pursuit of revenue (I suspect that they learned something from the Catholic church which owns huge assets donated through the ages....)

The Catholic Church does not have obligatory charges for spiritual services. Scientology does. In my view, Scientology should be allowed to operate as any other profit-making business.

317 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:02:13pm

re: #270 mama winger

I have a splitting headache.

But let me tell you a bedtime story.

When LW was five years old, we were helping him learn to ride a two-wheeler. He was finally getting the hang of it. So we let him start at one end of the street and ride toward us. About three quarters of the way, he started to wobble. He tried to catch himself. His foot got tangled up in the spokes of the back wheel somehow. We watched as his ankle twisted, then we heard the sound of the bone breaking. He crashed to the street.

I ran over to him in a panic , and he stood up. I examined his foot was but it was not injured in any way. We couldn't understand it.

I said, "Doesn't your foot hurt?" He said, "No. That man held my foot and fixed it right away. Where did he go?"


I loved your story mama winger! I just don't understand why religion was good enough for there grand parents, and mothers and fathers , and possibility buried them in a cemetery could not have faith!

318 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:02:36pm

re: #304 LoFlyer

Well you can bet our Universities are buying into phase three and the Suadi grants accompanying the phase.....

So, yes- you have a problem with that strategy?

319 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:02:44pm

Guys its time for a late dinner, many thanks for the discussion, I extend best wishes to the moms out there! We owe all to you!

320 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:03:44pm

It ain't about the origins of life but, it's from the beginning.

321 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:04:54pm

re: #316 wolfie

The Catholic Church does not have obligatory charges for spiritual services. Scientology does. In my view, Scientology should be allowed to operate as any other profit-making business.

The problem with Scientology is that it preys on the least able to resist. They have some dysfunctional Hollywood stars ato appear as dynamic front men, but it's a dangerous group of thugs that are taking advantage of a lot of weak people.

322 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:05:30pm

re: #316 wolfie

The Catholic Church does not have obligatory charges for spiritual services. Scientology does. In my view, Scientology should be allowed to operate as any other profit-making business.

Indulgences? Paying to light a candle? Paying to have your marriage annulled?

323 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:05:40pm

re: #287 Pater Coop

So, you do agree that there is no such thing as "non-belief"?


Uh, no.

324 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:05:52pm

"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, remain neutral" - Dantere: #296 Syrah

So often the comment is heard that Nietzsche said that God was dead, but few have read the source of that comment. It is a deeper and more astute observation of the human condition then it is given credit for.

The Parable of the Madman

A Youtube reading of the above.

Thanks! I have read some Nietzsche, but stopped short of Zarathustra (if that's how you spell it, I forget). However, I wasn't trying to be DEEP, just making a comment meant to lighten the discourse.
Of course, I could also add Dante's bit about the hottest places in hell being reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, remain neutral.
...so guess where I'm going to end up? On the barby with the other fencesitters. ;-)

325 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:06:11pm

re: #239 greenmiler

It must be faith based because atheism (there is no god)cannot be proven.

Poor analogy, poorly worded. What you seem to be arguing for is negative proof, which is to say: "Such a thing must be true, because there is no proof that it is false". This is a logical fallacy.

It would be akin to saying that my assertion that time travel is impossible must be "faith based" because no one can prove that time travel is impossible.

326 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:06:23pm
327 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:07:47pm

Good night, Lizards.

328 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:08:08pm

re: #327 goddessoftheclassroom

Sweet dreams!

329 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:08:36pm

re: #327 goddessoftheclassroom

Good night, Lizards.


sweetdreams to you!

330 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:08:38pm

re: #327 goddessoftheclassroom

Good night, Lizards.

G'night!

331 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:08:50pm
332 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:08:51pm

re: #327 goddessoftheclassroom

Goodnight goddess.

333 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:08:53pm

Sage? S&D? Would you find my #291 objectionable?

334 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:09:26pm
335 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:09:36pm

I am out, too. Good night, everybody! Kilgore, Occasional, Slumbering, thank you for entertaining my queries.

337 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:10:37pm

Good night moon
....mothers (and fathers) everywhere.
The local nursery school won't let the children make a mother's day present because some of the children have more than one mother! (stepmothers, etc., or mother is grandmother).

338 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:10:37pm

re: #335 Pater Coop

Nighty-night!

339 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:10:43pm

re: #335 Pater Coop

I am out, too. Good night, everybody! Kilgore, Occasional, Slumbering, thank you for entertaining my queries.


Sweetdreams to you!

340 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:11:16pm

re: #337 katemaclaren

Good night moon
....mothers (and fathers) everywhere.
The local nursery school won't let the children make a mother's day present because some of the children have more than one mother! (stepmothers, etc., or mother is grandmother).

Oh, for fuck's sake.

341 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:11:48pm
342 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:11:57pm
343 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:12:03pm

re: #340 MandyManners

Oh, for fuck's sake.

I know. Indeed.

344 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:12:21pm

re: #303 Pater Coop

What is your definition of "evidence"?

Short answer: PROOF.

Long answer: Evidence is something that can be measured by the five senses: sight, sound, touch, taste, smell. Something that furnishes proof.

345 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:13:16pm

re: #343 katemaclaren

I know. Indeed.

You just made me laugh out loud! Thanks Mandy and a very good night to you!

346 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:14:20pm

re: #326 ploome hineni

yes, most of my cars have been floor shifts

even my first MBZ was a vintage 4 on the floor

I have been driving automatics for about 15 years now

automatics are a bore. aren't they? when i'm driving my jeep i keep reaching for the shift on my favorite beat up diesel toyota truck.

347 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:14:23pm

re: #345 katemaclaren

You just made me laugh out loud! Thanks Mandy and a very good night to you!


Sweetdreams katemaclaren!:)

348 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:14:28pm

For anyone out there who's interested in the crypto-criminal enterprise known as Scientology: Operation Clambake: [Link: www.xenu.net...]

349 X-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:14:42pm

My 2 cents.

Any argument that is based on a feeling or faith is only an argument too be lost.

Evolution has its gaps as does creationism. It then becomes the feeling we argue about.

The gaps are the points of the argument but it is the feelings on both sides that lose the argument.

ar·gu·ment (ärgy-mnt)
n.
1.
a. A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate.
b. A quarrel; a dispute.
c. Archaic A reason or matter for dispute or contention: "sheath'd their swords for lack of argument" Shakespeare.
2.
a. A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood: presented a careful argument for extraterrestrial life.
b. A fact or statement put forth as proof or evidence; a reason: The current low mortgage rates are an argument for buying a house now.
c. A set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others.

350 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:15:42pm

re: #340 MandyManners

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Oh, dear, hit the wrong button. This is what made me laugh out loud--and now, embarrassed (hanging head) I will back out of the salon.

351 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:15:45pm

re: #346 nyc redneck

352 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:16:31pm

re: #324 katemaclaren

I liked your comment. It was very clever. And indeed, Nietzsche died quite mad. Dante's comment is also quite good.

I just saw an opportunity to get up on one of my favorite soapboxes and took it.

Nietzsche's parable seems prophetic now, looking at the state of Christianity in Europe. The empty churches and cathedrals seem to ring and echo heavily with the madman's requiem aeternam deo.

353 Naso Tang  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:17:02pm

re: #309 song_and_dance_man

Sure.

And this is for further reading for proponents of Evolution.

Panspermia

The reality around us and our being in it is a wonderful thing and we should be proud of its design or chance since we are here talking about it.

Not wanting to start something tonight, but your link says, among other things:

Panspermia per se does not remove the need for life to originate somewhere, but does extend the time frame and environments available. Similarly, it does not necessarily suggest that life originated only once and subsequently spread through the entire Universe, but instead that once started it may be able to spread to other environments suitable for replication.

I'm not sure what you think this has to do with evolution? This references only a conceivable start at a particular location, and does not even say anything about original start (creation), just like evolution doesn't.

354 Truck Monkey  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:17:04pm

re: #301 MandyManners

Oh, the steaminess of it all! And, those itsy-bitsy onions!

White Castle sliders. Better eaten while raging drunk!

355 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:17:06pm

re: #334 ploome hineni

this is what the NSU looked like

[Link: farm4.static.flickr.com...]

no heater, may have had a radio.....do not rmemeber

my Father paid less than 500$ for it

how cute is that car! adorable. and what a great photo. love the red umbrella on the right side.

356 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:17:26pm

re: #351 beachkatie
you ARE A COOL LADY!:)

357 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:17:57pm
358 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:18:28pm

re: #356 beachkatie
nYC REDNECK!:)

359 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:18:38pm

re: #333 Sharmuta

In these debates it's easy for us all to get confused.
I think scientology is wrong (in all senses), but I don't think it should be outlawed.
Two different questions.

I think Intelligent Design theories are interesting and seriously worth philosophical discussion, but I do not think they should be broached in a science class.
Two different questions.

The Discovery Institute has a naughty plan (IMO), but that does not mean that every idea they have ever espoused....most of which are entirely unoriginal to them... is stupid or wicked. It doesn't even necessarily mean their whole kit and kaboodle of ideas is wrong.
Two different questions.

Answering argument on the substance of ideas by pointing to the plans of the Discovery Institute is what used to be called the genetic fallacy.

360 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:18:56pm

re: #351 beachkatie

{beachkatie} hey sweet thing.

361 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:19:49pm
362 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:20:26pm
363 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:20:39pm

re: #358 beachkatie

i was afraid you were outta here the other night. glad to see you didn't go. :D

364 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:20:47pm

re: #291 Sharmuta

Oooh, nice twist. +1

/The fact that it reads like a strategic plan of attack should be bothersome to all, yet somehow it isn't

365 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:21:32pm

re: #342 beachkatie

You're back!

366 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:21:55pm

re: #360 nyc redneck
HAVE A GREAT DAY TOMORROW!

367 yochanan  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:22:28pm

re: #315 goddessoftheclassroom

i don't believe in debating religion one way or the other. to me it is very personal.

368 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:23:41pm

re: #343 katemaclaren

I know. Indeed.

It just hit me that the reason might be financial. The Kid gives gifts to both me and my mom. But, it's a private school so they have a bigger budget than public schools.

369 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:24:07pm

re: #275 Ning the Merciless

These are good, thanks for the link. LOL!

370 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:24:12pm

re: #345 katemaclaren

Don't let the bed-bugs bite!

371 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:24:53pm

re: #365 MandyManners

You're back!

I had a little to much to drink the other night! I got upset way to easy!Sorry! I said a bad thing to Charles too.... my bad!

372 4wheel  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:25:02pm

"Creators need creators too".

Nah. If they're THE creator, they're beyond our minuscule comprehension. Men believe themselves gods, and therefore do not understand the concept of faith.

373 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:26:19pm

re: #359 wolfie

Mmm- I'm not trying to say that, not in the slightest.

What I am trying to do is enlighten people. I have a serious problem with any organization that wants to usurp my Constitutional rights.

374 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:26:24pm

Hey good evening y'all! First let me wish a happy day tomorrow for all LGF mothers!
Uh, no - wait that didn't come out right - let me wish a Happy Mother's Day to all LGF Mom's and grandmom's (and if we have any, great-great grandmoms) tomorrow!

Secondly, what have I missed?!

375 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:26:33pm
376 yochanan  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:27:04pm

to all you lizardettes HAPPY MOTHERS DAY.

377 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:27:27pm

re: #352 Syrah

I liked your comment. It was very clever. And indeed, Nietzsche died quite mad. Dante's comment is also quite good.

I just saw an opportunity to get up on one of my favorite soapboxes and took it.

Nietzsche's parable seems prophetic now, looking at the state of Christianity in Europe. The empty churches and cathedrals seem to ring and echo heavily with the madman's requiem aeternam deo.

So true. Europeans seem to have lost their souls. I lived in Italy, Germany and England for a few years, and it feels very odd to see only a few old people headed for mass. There is also a sense of ennui that even materialism can't assuage.
My dad (WWII vet who I never saw attend church, pray or show the slightest sign that he was religious) liked to say there were no atheists in foxholes, so maybe things are a little too comfy there, who knows? I'll paraphrase the atheist's dying prayer (my dad's words) "God (if there is a God), save my soul (if I have a soul)."

378 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:27:37pm

re: #362 song_and_dance_man

Yes, I object to it. Yet I can see where this might lead with the obvious answers and rebuttals, so let me say this. Abraham didn't find his faith because proselytizers calculated their outreach. It was one on one from his Friend and that was enough for him and that should be enough for us.

Guess what- that's not an islamic document. I altered it. Thank you for reading it- you'll recognize it when you get back to the links you didn't want to read tonight.

379 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:28:24pm

re: #256 tripletdad

...but Creation (i.e. the physical Universe) does not need a Creator, nor does it indicate their actually IS a Creator.

/is that what he's saying?

What who, me? I'm not saying much of anything, just that if you're talking Creator with a capital C, tradition has it that that is the First Cause, and if you like, He created Himself.

The problem is pretty much the same whether you ask about the Big Bang or the Big Banger, and I don't know the answer to either one.

380 phoenixgirl  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:28:59pm

re: #367 yochanan

{yoch} where ya been?

381 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:29:13pm

re: #376 yochanan

to all you lizardettes HAPPY MOTHERS DAY.


Thanks sweetie!:)

382 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:30:15pm
383 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:30:26pm

re: #371 beachkatie

I had a little to much to drink the other night! I got upset way to easy!Sorry! I said a bad thing to Charles too.... my bad!

i don't remember you saying anything bad. i just remember you saying you were leaving. (and i'm glad you didn't.)

384 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:30:45pm

. re: #354 Truck Monkey

White Castle sliders. Better eaten while raging drunk!

The only kind of "sliders" that I remember are the raw oysters in Tabasco sauce served in a bar at Point Defiance Park south of Seattle. I got lit there once when hanging out with some Airborne Rangers buds.

They made sure that the staff gave me the biggest oyster. I grabbed that puppy, held it up, sucked off the sauce, bit it in half, chewed it up and swallowed.

I came back on one dude that night with a reference to Phillip Roth that brought down the house.

Good times.

385 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:31:32pm

re: #371 beachkatie

I had a little to much to drink the other night! I got upset way to easy!Sorry! I said a bad thing to Charles too.... my bad!

Shit-faced happens!

386 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:31:41pm

re: #368 MandyManners

It just hit me that the reason might be financial. The Kid gives gifts to both me and my mom. But, it's a private school so they have a bigger budget than public schools.

Well, in this case, they would have been MAKING things (handprints in plaster, for example). This is what they did last year.

387 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:32:35pm

re: #385 MandyManners

Shit-faced happens!

clinton happens (or used to)

388 Steve  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:33:15pm

Several years ago I went to a discussion of ID at the University of Portland that was given by the original author of ID. If memory serves me correctly he said that he was either agnostic or athiest and nowhere in his speech did he say that God was the intellegent designer and even went out of his way to say that religion had nothing to do with his idea of ID.

389 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:33:16pm

re: #381 beachkatie Hi ya beachkatie - hope you have a great day tomorrow!
How are you doing today/tonight?

390 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:33:20pm

re: #383 nyc redneck

i don't remember you saying anything bad. i just remember you saying you were leaving. (and i'm glad you didn't.)

I love you guys , i could never really leave ya!:)Even though some are very weird!

391 lostlakehiker  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:34:02pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Just posted in the spinoffs: Cardinal Murphy O'Connor claim Hitler and Stalin were guided by Reason

The Disco Institute talking points are gaining traction.

The good cardinal has a point of sorts. Human reason is boundedly rational. We can't see all the way to the end of the branching tree, even at chess, where all the cards are on the table and everything is in principle known.

People who consider themselves above the traditional restraints and laws don't understand that it's not mere tradition. Leaving aside all matters of faith, it's at a minimum the distilled experience of more than 3 millennia.

At chess, the guy who thinks he knows it all and won't even look at a book of openings or a study of tricky endgames is a guy whose native talent is going to take him to a place a couple hundred rating points below where talent plus accessing the chess world's archive of wisdom would take him. It is, in short, a departure from reason to imagine that one can be guided by reason alone, without reference to the distilled experience of hundreds of generations that have gone before.

392 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:34:16pm
#322 MandyManners 5/10/08 8:05:30 pm
re: #316 wolfie
The Catholic Church does not have obligatory charges for spiritual services. Scientology does. In my view, Scientology should be allowed to operate as any other profit-making business.

Indulgences? Paying to light a candle? Paying to have your marriage annulled?

The Orthodox church has no fees for spiritual services. If you experience otherwise, tell the presiding hierarch and he will straighten things out. Oh, and candles do cost money. However if you wish to light a candle without paying, only God will know at my church.

The first cause, big bang or whatever always answers my prayers above and beyond anything I could hope or imagine. Must be just coincidence.

393 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:35:13pm

re: #373 Sharmuta

Mmm- I'm not trying to say that, not in the slightest.

What I am trying to do is enlighten people. I have a serious problem with any organization that wants to usurp my Constitutional rights.

I have a serious problem with that, too, and I don't mean to fuss at you too much for it. After all, I have to admit this is a good opportunity to bring the subject up!

It's just that it has seemed to me that you have been answering substantive arguments with genetic ones far too often.
But like I said, if the Disco plan is what is really heavy on your mind, I can see how that could happen. The abundance of information you've given about the plan is, in any case, very helpful. (IMO)

394 Naso Tang  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:35:21pm

re: #375 song_and_dance_man

Bingo

Well, I can agree with the sentiment in your last sentence:

The reality around us and our being in it is a wonderful thing and we should be proud of its design or chance since we are here talking about it.

But as I said, I was puzzled what you thought was relevant to evolution - ists in particular.

Anyway, just to prove I didn't mean to start anything this late, I'm off. Happy Mothers Day to your mother too. :)

395 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:35:22pm

re: #389 realwest

Hi ya beachkatie - hope you have a great day tomorrow!
How are you doing today/tonight?


Hey realwest I'm doing fine how are you doing bud?:O

396 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:35:43pm

re: #388 Steve

Was it Philip Johnson?

397 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:36:07pm

re: #374 realwest

re: #376 yochanan

Thank you .....from all Lizard-moms!

398 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:36:48pm

re: #390 beachkatie

I love you guys , i could never really leave ya!:)Even though some are very weird!

You did say something funny about leaving, but I'm glad you didn't.
Well, wherever everyone is, good night for real this time. I'm on EST and want to finish reading a great book about Steve Jobs before morning.

399 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:37:23pm
400 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:37:52pm

re: #374 realwest

thanks for the mother's day wish. do you have something planned tomorrow for your mom?

401 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:38:28pm

re: #398 katemaclaren

You did say something funny about leaving, but I'm glad you didn't.
Well, wherever everyone is, good night for real this time. I'm on EST and want to finish reading a great book about Steve Jobs before morning.

Good nite kate have a great day tomorrow!

Sweetdreams to ya!

402 Steve  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:38:31pm

re: #396 jaunte

No it was Michael Behe I believe. 90% sure of this.

403 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:38:31pm

re: #377 katemaclaren

I love that prayer you quoted!
I also love the prayer of St. Augustine: "Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief."
Others may prefer another one of his: "Lord, make me chaste.....Tomorrow."

404 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:38:47pm

re: #395 {beachkatie} I'm doing just fine tonight, thank you kindly!
We are, however, supposedly in for a BAD weather day tomorrow - thunderstorms, tornados and all the rest of what we've gone through the last week or so.
So I hope you have a great Mother's Day in spite of the weather!

405 Dan G.  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:39:15pm

re: #215 DesertSage

If you believe in something based on theory, not on fact...then your belief system is faith based. Period.

Theories are an assembly of facts, still in the realm of reason and NOT faith. Try again.

In Re: the unofficial poll: unabashed atheist.

407 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:39:48pm

re: #397 wolfie Well all the Lizards Moms are surely welcome!
Got any plans for tomorrow?

408 Steve  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:39:57pm

Video clip of Micheal Behe.

409 abolitionist  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:40:31pm

re: #378 Sharmuta

Guess what- that's not an islamic document. I altered it. Thank you for reading it- you'll recognize it when you get back to the links you didn't want to read tonight.

I see. This line gives it away:

This combination of islamic and scholarly expertise and media and political connections makes the Wedge unique, and also prevents it from being "merely academic."

410 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:40:33pm

re: #377 katemaclaren
re: #377 katemaclaren

Wealth and comfort may be the most potent difficult challenges there are to a person's faith.

411 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:40:54pm

re: #386 katemaclaren

Well, in this case, they would have been MAKING things (handprints in plaster, for example). This is what they did last year.

That's just sad. Very, very sad.

However, did it take a lot of extra time and bucks?

412 Ojoe  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:41:16pm
...“There must be something greater, so there must be a ...Creator, but
Creators need creators too; it’s turtles all the way."...

Actually no, the Creator is the Uncaused Cause.

St Thomas Aquinas explains this in the Summa Theologica.

413 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:41:24pm

re: #387 nyc redneck

clinton happens (or used to)

I'd rather a Clinton happen than an Obama.

414 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:41:39pm

re: #400 nyc redneck Yes indeed I do! First of course a very lovely card.
Then the flowers and gifts I already bought her. Then I'm making dinner, after which I imagine we'll have a wonderful trip to the ER! LOL!

415 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:42:19pm

re: #392 David IV of Georgia

The Orthodox church has no fees for spiritual services. If you experience otherwise, tell the presiding hierarch and he will straighten things out. Oh, and candles do cost money. However if you wish to light a candle without paying, only God will know at my church.

The first cause, big bang or whatever always answers my prayers above and beyond anything I could hope or imagine. Must be just coincidence.

God made the Big Bang! In fact, God IS the Big Bang!

416 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:42:42pm

re: #406 MandyManners
Hi Mandy - why is it that all of the foods that taste the best (or almost all) all seem to cause cancer?!

418 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:42:57pm

re: #410 Syrah

re: #377 katemaclaren

Wealth and comfort may be the most potent difficult challenges there are to a person's faith.

that's very interesting considering i'm very intrigued by a vow of poverty and i'm not exactly what you would call religious.

419 trailortrash  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:43:00pm

very nice :)

420 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:43:02pm

Oh forgive me. I forgot to wish everyone a "Haffy Creator's Day" tomorrow ("haffy" because the other half, of course, belongs to your DADs...and we don't celebrate the other creator's day until June!)

421 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:43:24pm

re: #399 song_and_dance_man

I did that because I think it's intellectually dishonest to have a problem with one theistic agenda threatening our Constitution, but not another because we may agree with the tenants of one more than another.

422 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:43:48pm

re: #413 MandyManners

I'd rather a Clinton happen than an Obama.

LOL, of course, i would too.

423 Steve  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:44:21pm

Another clip from Michael Behe.

424 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:44:28pm

re: #412 Ojoe

Actually no, the Creator is the Uncaused Cause.

St Thomas Aquinas explains this in the Summa Theologica.

Ojoe I love YOU! :)

425 Shay4l  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:44:40pm

OK the turtles thing I think I understand. The oysters, I'm not exactly sure about....

426 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:44:53pm
427 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:45:19pm

I have pie. and ice cream.

not sharing.

428 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:45:22pm

re: #413 MandyManners
Amen and I NEVER thought I'd hear myself say that Clinton would make a better POTUS than anyone else.
Geez what a choice we will have in November.

429 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:45:29pm

re: #416 realwest

Hi Mandy - why is it that all of the foods that taste the best (or almost all) all seem to cause cancer?!

Control over your life.

430 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:45:32pm

re: #414 realwest

Yes indeed I do! First of course a very lovely card.
Then the flowers and gifts I already bought her. Then I'm making dinner, after which I imagine we'll have a wonderful trip to the ER! LOL!

LOL, i hope not. (that was funny)

431 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:45:53pm

re: #417 beachkatie

I glad i quit smoking 8 months ago! a life time to me!:)

Good going!

432 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:45:57pm

re: #407 realwest

Well all the Lizards Moms are surely welcome!
Got any plans for tomorrow?

My kids are making a "banquet!" I'm not entirely sure what that means.....except I have to leave the house or take a nap or hide in a closet for a few hours beforehand!

433 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:46:27pm

re: #420 katemaclaren

Oh forgive me. I forgot to wish everyone a "Haffy Creator's Day" tomorrow ("haffy" because the other half, of course, belongs to your DADs...and we don't celebrate the other creator's day until June!)

LOL!

434 akarra  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:46:56pm

It's a nice poem, but as much as I fight with Christian fundamentalists, this is their country too. And a lot of them are fighting to defend it, and it is notable how evangelical in spirit a lot of atheists and "Darwinian fundamentalists" (Stephen Jay Gould's term for Daniel Dennett) can be, and how many other myths they're willing to do away with (including, perhaps: "All men are created equal" - the Progressive obsession with equality right now is code for moral libertarianism funded by the gov't. Not quite the same thing).

Rationality is a tricky thing. It isn't true that asking for empirical confirmation of a hypothesis is merely a form of belief. But contra the poem, it probably is true that atheism is a form of belief, given that most atheists can't accept any evidence that there may be a God.

That's the deeper psychological insight underlying Anselm's ontological proof: If you conceive of the greatest thing possible, it exists in the deepest sense. So let's say there is no God - what do people who hold there is no God worship? With Richard Dawkins, his own ego. I don't need to go to Christian fundamentalists to find solid argumentation against The Selfish Gene.

I'm not for ID, not one bit. And I'm actually arguing with a fundamentalist right now in another thread over how literal the Bible should be taken. But the implication that rationality entails atheism has to be defeated at all costs. It simply isn't true, and our political institutions can't hold up unless people have some sense of respect for another, a sense of respect that doesn't allow us to see each other as merely useful, but maybe as part and parcel of the divine. A good friend who is also against ID noted that what struck him most about "Expelled" was how harshly the fundamentalists were being treated. I know that's the tip of the iceberg in an age that wants to proclaim itself more rational.

435 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:47:37pm

re: #428 realwest

Amen and I NEVER thought I'd hear myself say that Clinton would make a better POTUS than anyone else.
Geez what a choice we will have in November.

I can't believe you said that!

436 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:47:53pm

re: #422 nyc redneck

LOL, of course, i would too.

For some reason, my co-workers now come to me to talk about politicss and Islam.

Heh.

437 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:47:59pm

re: #417 {beachkatie} Braggart!

438 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:48:15pm

re: #434 akarra

It's a nice poem, but as much as I fight with Christian fundamentalists, this is their country too. And a lot of them are fighting to defend it, and it is notable how evangelical in spirit a lot of atheists and "Darwinian fundamentalists" (Stephen Jay Gould's term for Daniel Dennett) can be, and how many other myths they're willing to do away with (including, perhaps: "All men are created equal" - the Progressive obsession with equality right now is code for moral libertarianism funded by the gov't. Not quite the same thing).

Rationality is a tricky thing. It isn't true that asking for empirical confirmation of a hypothesis is merely a form of belief. But contra the poem, it probably is true that atheism is a form of belief, given that most atheists can't accept any evidence that there may be a God.

That's the deeper psychological insight underlying Anselm's ontological proof: If you conceive of the greatest thing possible, it exists in the deepest sense. So let's say there is no God - what do people who hold there is no God worship? With Richard Dawkins, his own ego. I don't need to go to Christian fundamentalists to find solid argumentation against The Selfish Gene.

I'm not for ID, not one bit. And I'm actually arguing with a fundamentalist right now in another thread over how literal the Bible should be taken. But the implication that rationality entails atheism has to be defeated at all costs. It simply isn't true, and our political institutions can't hold up unless people have some sense of respect for another, a sense of respect that doesn't allow us to see each other as merely useful, but maybe as part and parcel of the divine. A good friend who is also against ID noted that what struck him most about "Expelled" was how harshly the fundamentalists were being treated. I know that's the tip of the iceberg in an age that wants to proclaim itself more rational.

Welcome, hatchling. I hadn't noticed the gates were open.

439 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:48:30pm

re: #27 Gagdad Bob

Leave it to a middlebrow atheist to drain poetry of its transcendent content, and therefore, the sufficient reason for its existence. A poem this bad may well prove Darwin right, as Koko could have written it.

I meant to say this earlier, but got lost in more engaging conversation: Boo dude. Booooo! -1

440 Ojoe  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:48:33pm

re: #424 beachkatie

Well Ok, thanks, gee,

just doing my best here

441 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:48:42pm

re: #427 Racer X

I have pie. and ice cream.

not sharing.

Screw your pie and ice cream.

I have Basil.

442 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:48:47pm

re: #431 MandyManners

Good going!


Thank you!

443 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:49:25pm

re: #399 song_and_dance_man

I think her point is that we would find the exact same document very offensive if it were issued by CAIR rather than the DI.

444 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:49:48pm

re: #428 realwest

Amen and I NEVER thought I'd hear myself say that Clinton would make a better POTUS than anyone else.
Geez what a choice we will have in November.

Just wait until Denver.

445 NY Nana  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:50:08pm

re: #387 nyc redneck

clinton happens (or used to)

/Look up the definition of 'shit'...bet it says 'Clintons'.

And if it doesn't? It should!

446 friarstale  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:50:16pm

Candide, Chapter 11
The Old Woman's Story
[Link: cruxy.com...]

447 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:50:48pm

re: #434 akarra

And I'm actually arguing with a fundamentalist right now in another thread over how literal the Bible should be taken.

Must be a thread at a different blog, cuz you've only made 1 post here.

448 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:50:51pm

re: #436 MandyManners

For some reason, my co-workers now come to me to talk about politicss and Islam.

Heh.

of course they do. look how much we learn here. you're an expert. keep passing it on.

449 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:50:57pm

re: #430 nyc redneck
Thankew, thankew, thankew! It was intended to be; when I put my mind to it, I'm actually a pretty fair cook (though mostly Italian food and I'm a WASP! Go figgah!)!

450 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:51:31pm

re: #441 MandyManners

Screw your pie and ice cream.

I have Basil.

Basil? Who is that?

451 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:52:10pm

re: #432 wolfie Go for the nap! Naps are severely underrated!

452 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:52:21pm

re: #437 realwest

Braggart!


Hey real west, I put on weigh during this time period, with exercise! The doc said it is normal!

453 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:53:11pm

re: #450 Racer X

Basil? Who is that?

Basil Hayden, and you'll note she made no mention of sharing.

/bourbon whiskey

454 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:53:25pm
455 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:54:06pm

re: #435 beachkatie Why not? I DO think she would be a better president than Obama. Waaay better.

456 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:54:19pm

I just wanted to put this in again. (Yes, I know I'm a day or two late, but I couldn't find the dang thing until today.)

re: #151 wolfie

Another poem appropriate for this last week,
having celebrated the 60th anniversary if the State of Israel,
and having seen too many twist and abuse the commemoration,
for the love or appeasement of her enemies................

Light of Israel

When Israel ,of the Lord beloved,
Out from the land of bondage came,
Her fathers' God before her moved,
An awful guide in smoke and flame.

By day, along the astonished lands
The cloudy pillar glided slow;
By night, Arabia's crimsoned sands
Returned the fiery column's glow.

There rose the choral hymn of praise,
And trump and timbrel answered keen,
And Zion's daughters poured their lays,
With priest's and warrior's voice between.

No portents now our foes amaze,
Forsaken Israel wanders lone;
Our fathers would not know Thy ways,
And Thou hast left them to their own.

But present still, though now unseen!
When brightly shines the prosperous day,
Be thoughts of Thee a cloudy screen
To temper the deceitful ray.

And oh, when stoops on Judah's path
In shade and storm the frequent night,
Be Thou long-suffering, slow to wrath,
A burning and a shining light!

Our harps we left by Babel's streams,
The tyrant's jest, the Gentile's scorn;
No censer round our altar beams,
And mute are timbrel, harp, and horn.

But Thou hast said The blood of goat,
The flesh of rams I will not prize;
A contrite heart, a humble thought,
Are Mine accepted sacrifice.

Sir Walter Scott, ca. 1820

457 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:54:25pm

re: #393 wolfie

I don't want to get into the God vs. non-God argument because, for starters, that plays into the DI's strategy. Second- it's a personal issue for everyone, and it's not likely to change any minds. I've been researching the DI the last few days and an still working on the Darwin. Other than some psychology and astronomy- I'm not well versed in science, but I am trying to learn.

Having previously been called ignorant, I'm not willing to speak about that which I'm not well versed enough in until I rectify my lack of knowledge. In the meantime, I see the wedge strategy as problematic, and I feel comfortable speaking out against it because the Constitution is a subject in which I am very well versed.

458 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:54:27pm

re: #445 NY Nana

/Look up the definition of 'shit'...bet it says 'Clintons'.

And if it doesn't? It should!

LOL, mark levin talks abt. his "clinton happens" bumper sticker. he has it on his beat up old car so when some lib keys it, he won't care abt, the scratches. but i don't think anyone is keying it now. (obama happens)

459 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:54:48pm

re: #453 OldLineTexan

Basil Hayden, and you'll note she made no mention of sharing.

/bourbon whiskey

Ahh. That goes with ice cream right?

460 Steve  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:54:56pm

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not have been formed by numerous, successive slight modifications my theory would break down."

Charles Darwin from 'Origin of Species'

461 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:55:05pm

re: #454 song_and_dance_man

Oh, simple. Creationists want to rule the world and execute unbelievers.

/I mean, Islamists and Creationists are just alike

462 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:55:06pm
463 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:56:03pm

re: #454 song_and_dance_man

Look- I tried to speak to you honestly about it, and your answer was you didn't want to read it.

464 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:56:04pm

re: #455 realwest

Why not? I DO think she would be a better president than Obama. Waaay better.

I think i could put up with mc cain better.... Not saying much for that democrat!

465 Ojoe  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:56:23pm

re: #434 akarra

our political institutions can't hold up unless people have some sense of respect for another, a sense of respect that doesn't allow us to see each other as merely useful, but maybe as part and parcel of the divine. A good friend who is also against ID noted that what struck him most about "Expelled" was how harshly the fundamentalists were being treated. I know that's the tip of the iceberg in an age that wants to proclaim itself more rational.

Well true.

And I think that the nefarious forces (Stan, Old Scratch, Lucibello, whatever you want to name it) are busy insinuating that rationality implies no God, because everyone rightly wants to be rational, & if Stan can use this to trick us into throwing out an awareness of the supreme being, then it is easier for him to sow discord, and to do damage.

466 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:56:28pm

re: #462 song_and_dance_man

I don't think that's it, but we shall see.

No- Yooper was exactly right.

467 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:56:35pm

re: #448 nyc redneck

of course they do. look how much we learn here. you're an expert. keep passing it on.

Expert? LOL!

I'm just a neophyte.

468 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:56:49pm

re: #459 Racer X

Ahh. That goes with ice cream right?

I have never advocated mixing good bourbon with anything but a breath of branch water.

Then again, I do not put beans in chili, either.

Maybe I am just boring.

469 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:58:00pm

re: #450 Racer X

Basil? Who is that?

[Link: www.smallbatch.com...]

470 Etaoin Shrdlu  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:59:07pm

Ooh, a thread!

"How to Ruin American Enterprise

12) Elevate mysticism, tribalism, shamanism and fundamentalism--and be sure to exclude educated, hardworking men and women--to an equal status with technology in the public mind. Make sure that, in order to pay proper (and politically correct) respect to all different ethnic groups in America, you act as if science were on an equal footing with voodoo and history with ethnic fable."

by some guy.

471 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:59:27pm

re: #415 MandyManners

God made the Big Bang! In fact, God IS the Big Bang!

This Big Bang got me cars for free three times within two weeks after praying for a new car and not speaking to any person about my request... The Big Bang got me a free master's degree... The Big Bang answers prayer when you ask according to his will and keep his commandments as he said in his scripture. He's never let me down.

472 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:59:27pm

re: #453 OldLineTexan

Basil Hayden, and you'll note she made no mention of sharing.

/bourbon whiskey

Why, you!

I share.

473 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:59:57pm

re: #468 OldLineTexan

I have never advocated mixing good bourbon with anything but a breath of branch water.

Then again, I do not put beans in chili, either.

Maybe I am just boring.

You are sweet becauce you don't want those to eat it past gas!

474 abolitionist  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:00:23pm

re: #446 friarstale

Candide, Chapter 11
The Old Woman's Story
[Link: cruxy.com...]

Worth a listen, particularly for hatchlings - a rather graphic first-person accounting of a moor.

475 Salem  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:00:27pm

That kicks ass...

476 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:00:33pm

re: #464 beachkatie Ah I should have been more clear - I'd druther have Hillary than Obama and McCain over either of them, if only for the GWOT and the judicial appointments .
But I'm not exactly thrilled with McCain either, which is why I said what I did about our choices in November.

477 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:00:33pm

re: #470 Etaoin Shrdlu

Wow! How times have changed.

478 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:00:49pm

re: #468 OldLineTexan

I have never advocated mixing good bourbon with anything but a breath of branch water.

Then again, I do not put beans in chili, either.

Maybe I am just boring.

You add water to Bourbon?

*swoon*

479 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:01:07pm

re: #470 Etaoin Shrdlu

Wow, Ben sure has changed.

480 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:01:41pm

re: #477 Sharmuta

Heh.

481 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:01:47pm

This story illustrates the problem some people (including myself) have with ID and science education.
...The Calvary Chapel Christian School of Murrieta, Calif., with 1,300 students, is suing UC for not giving credits for some courses with a "Christian viewpoint" when students apply for university admission. The lawsuit is about theological content in "every major area in high school except for mathematics," says Wendell Bird, a lawyer for Calvary Chapel.

The university rejected some class credits because Calvary Chapel relies on textbooks from leading Christian publishers, Bob Jones University Press and A Beka Book. A biology book from Bob Jones University presents creationism and intelligent design alongside evolution. The introduction says, "The people who have prepared this book have tried consistently to put the Word of God first and science second."

UC says such books would be acceptable as supplementary reading but not as the main textbook.
[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

... in the law suit by the Association of Christian Schools International and Calvary Chapel Christian School against the University of California. ACSI and Calvary were arguing that the UC system was unfairly refusing to accept transfer credits from certain courses taught at Christian schools which used inadequate materials in their curriculum.

(Michael) Behe testified in court on behalf of the plaintiffs that "it is personally abusive and pedagogically damaging to de facto require students to subscribe to an idea . . . . Requiring a student to, effectively, consent to an idea violates [her] personal integrity. Such a wrenching violation [may cause] a terrible educational outcome."

The judge cited this reasoning in his decision in favor of the University of California:

Yet, the two Christian biology texts at issue commit this "wrenching violation." For example, Biology for Christian Schools declares on the very first page that:

(1) "'Whatever the Bible says is so; whatever man says may or may not be so,' is the only [position] a Christian can take . . . ."

(2) "If [scientific] conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong, no matter how many scientific facts may appear to back them."

(3) "Christians must disregard [scientific hypotheses or theories] that contradict the Bible."


[Link: lippard.blogspot.com...]

482 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:01:54pm

re: #471 David IV of Georgia

This Big Bang got me cars for free three times within two weeks after praying for a new car and not speaking to any person about my request... The Big Bang got me a free master's degree... The Big Bang answers prayer when you ask according to his will and keep his commandments as he said in his scripture. He's never let me down.

What?

483 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:02:22pm

re: #475 Salem

That kicks ass...

Only if I let it.

484 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:02:26pm
485 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:03:05pm

re: #418 nyc redneck

There is nothing wrong with wealth.

Mark 10: 17-30

The difficulty with wealth is in owning it, and preventing it from owning you.

486 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:03:09pm

re: #476 realwest

Ah I should have been more clear - I'd druther have Hillary than Obama and McCain over either of them, if only for the GWOT and the judicial appointments .
But I'm not exactly thrilled with McCain either, which is why I said what I did about our choices in November.

OH i see! It is going to be hard to drag my self to the pole! HEHE!:)

487 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:03:42pm

re: #470 Etaoin Shrdlu

1)..... Destroy the knowledge base on which all of mankind's scientific progress has been built by guaranteeing that such learning is confined to only a few, and spread ignorance and complacency among the many. Watch America lose its scientific and competitive edge to other nations that make a comprehensive knowledge base a rule of the society.


What Happened to Ben?

488 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:04:15pm

re: #344 Slumbering Behemoth

Short answer: PROOF.

Long answer: Evidence is something that can be measured by the five senses: sight, sound, touch, taste, smell. Something that furnishes proof.

/no comment

489 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:04:40pm

re: #480 Killgore Trout

GMTA!

490 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:05:07pm

re: #478 MandyManners

You add water to Bourbon?

*swoon*

I learned from a master Scotch drinker that a "mere drap" of water is needed to release the breath of the liquor. ;)

The aroma is part of the enjoyment, yes?

491 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:05:30pm
492 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:05:37pm

re: #482 MandyManners

sic.

493 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:05:39pm

re: #487 Killgore Trout

He got a case of disco fever.

494 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:06:00pm

re: #487 Killgore Trout

What Happened to Ben?


Killgore get over it man!

495 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:06:39pm

re: #491 song_and_dance_man

I linked you directly to the document- YOU didn't want to read it.

496 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:09:13pm

re: #484 Racer X Hey my friend! How are you doing tonight?

497 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:09:16pm

re: #491 song_and_dance_man

Then why not spell it out clearly? I'll take that as a final answer even though some questions are left unanswered. And with that it is dropped.

These threads are heady enough without variable tangents.

She did show it clearly. She linked to it, and even highlighted the parts she changed from the DI to CAIR.

498 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:09:22pm

re: #490 OldLineTexan

I learned from a master Scotch drinker that a "mere drap" of water is needed to release the breath of the liquor. ;)

The aroma is part of the enjoyment, yes?

SCOTCH IS NOT BOURBON!

499 acapesket123  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:09:48pm

I really wish that everyone would agree to drop this subject. It's all personal, we are all persons with differring opinions.
It's been going on for weeks now and it just antagonizes those American of people of faith from their fellow Americans who are disinclined to believe in faith from those who are agnostic, Creationists, etc. from what Group "A" believe from what Group "B" and Group "C" believe.
What is the point?
We can argue and fight amongst ourselves for forever!

Isn't it more relevant that we are all Americans and the descendants of brave people before us?

Why does this issue keep coming up?

It's like trying to cull the herd!

I won't be back for a while. Not that I hardly post, but this subject just makes me Sad.

500 akarra  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:09:48pm

re: #447 Opilio

Yeah, it's at a different blog. I'm going to keep my posts here on topic.

Thanks for saying hi!

501 NY Nana  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:10:17pm

re: #458 nyc redneck

LOL, mark levin talks abt. his "clinton happens" bumper sticker. he has it on his beat up old car so when some lib keys it, he won't care abt, the scratches. but i don't think anyone is keying it now. (obama happens)

Darn...can't put that on our car...this year? No bumper sticker, only the 'Support the troops' yellow magnet ribbon..we have a Volvo, in a very red area of NY...I loved confusing people the last 2 elections with the Bush/Cheney magnet on the back on the car..

We are voting for McCain..I am not thrilled with him, but the 2 demonrats? How could anyone vote for either of them? Shrill and her political partner are the ultimate Jew haters...

McCain is a hero and a decent man, but he does tend to flip flop. Since he is the very best of 3 not great choices? He must win, or our country, our kids and grandkids will pay a terrible price with either Shrill or Hussein in the Oval Office, G-d forbid.

And anyone who is blind enough to vote for them? I cannot imagine the how or why.

502 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:10:23pm

re: #492 David IV of Georgia

sic.

Gotcha'.

503 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:11:38pm

re: #457 Sharmuta

Okay! :)

504 Ojoe  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:12:01pm

re: #499 acapesket123

It is silly to argue about this, the passions are misdirected anyhow.

Real faith is a calm thing.

Good night all.

505 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:12:07pm

re: #496 realwest

Hey my friend! How are you doing tonight?

Doing great RW! How about you?

506 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:12:25pm

re: #486 beachkatie

OH i see! It is going to be hard to drag my self to the pole! HEHE!:)

Which one? North? Flag? Barber? Stripper?

507 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:12:34pm

re: #498 MandyManners

SCOTCH IS NOT BOURBON!

Aye, lass, but there's no need to be shoutin'.

Bourbon and branch water is an old tradition, and I have learned that a small amount is the key.

508 CapeCoddah  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:12:53pm

re: #499 acapesket123
Hey, are you from Falmouth?

509 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:14:17pm

re: #490 OldLineTexan

I learned from a master Scotch drinker that a "mere drap" of water is needed to release the breath of the liquor. ;)

The aroma is part of the enjoyment, yes?

Both my Scotch and Kentuckian ancestors are annoyed. But I'm drinking Austrian Monopolowa tonight, so who am I to criticize?

510 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:14:51pm

It's quiet tonight. Maybe it's time to dust off a few Chuck Norris facts...

511 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:14:51pm

re: #504 Ojoe Good night Ojoe! Have a good night's sleep and hope I get to see you tomorrow!

512 NY Nana  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:15:02pm

re: #469 MandyManners

Darn, I thought it was this Basil!

513 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:15:08pm

re: #504 Ojoe

Sweet ones!

514 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:15:12pm
515 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:15:31pm

re: #421 Sharmuta

I did that because I think it's intellectually dishonest to have a problem with one theistic agenda threatening our Constitution, but not another because we may agree with the tenants of one more than another.

Well said, and that is a major thorn for me.

BTW, it should be obvious that anyone who feels tricked by Sharm's #291, or finds it unfamiliar, has not actually been reading the things that Charles and others have been posting.

To me, those who proffer arguments in defense of the DI's dishonest, political agenda without looking into all the information that has been provided are doing a grave disservice to themselves.

516 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:15:51pm

re: #505 Racer X OK, but REALLY tired and I've taken my meds, so I'll be taking my leave of all y'all shortly!

517 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:16:24pm

re: #509 David IV of Georgia

Both my Scotch and Kentuckian ancestors are annoyed. But I'm drinking Austrian Monopolowa tonight, so who am I to criticize?

You kids miss out on anything you like. And since I don't know what Austrian Monopolowa is, we have no quarrel there!

518 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:16:46pm

re: #510 jaunte

It's quiet tonight. Maybe it's time to dust off a few Chuck Norris facts...

I've been livin' in Big D for some time now and I ain't never seen hide nor hair o' him...

519 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:16:53pm

re: #512 NY Nana

Darn, I thought it was this Basil!

Keep your pecker up?!

LOL!

520 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:17:10pm

re: #485 Syrah

There is nothing wrong with wealth.

Mark 10: 17-30

The difficulty with wealth is in owning it, and preventing it from owning you.

i think i just have too much clutter.

521 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:17:19pm

re: #516 realwest

Have a great dinner-making experience tomorrow.

522 Salem  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:17:29pm

re: #61 goddessoftheclassroom

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and I don't want my feelings hurt.

I learned when I was very young that I had verbal quickness (or whatever you want to call it) beyond that of most of my friends. I could out-argue and out-insult them if I wanted to. I knew that I was "blessed" with a formidable tool that could be a weapon.

And I chose never to use it to hurt.

It is very difficult at times to bite back a comment that comes to mind, especially when someone has intentionally hurt me (such as my former inlaws), but I do.

Does it hurt when God laughs at you?

523 acapesket123  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:17:41pm

Well now, that Q presents some questions!

Like WHDDYAH ASK?

524 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:18:02pm

re: #518 David IV of Georgia

I'll try one:
It's turtles all the way down... until you reach Chuck Norris.

525 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:18:09pm

re: #522 Salem

Goddess left a while back.

526 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:18:15pm

re: #517 OldLineTexan

Cheap, yet surprisingly smooth, vodka.

527 NY Nana  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:18:31pm

re: #519 MandyManners

Keep your pecker up?!

LOL!

/I thought he said 'pepper'.

528 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:18:40pm

sweetdreams to ya!re: #504 Ojoe

It is silly to argue about this, the passions are misdirected anyhow.

Real faith is a calm thing.

Good night all.

529 CapeCoddah  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:18:47pm

re: #523 acapesket123
Ummm, Just curious, from the area myself. My kids were born in Falmouth. Nothing sinister.

530 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:19:04pm

re: #501 NY Nana

i agree completely. he's the default guy but far and away better than the commies

531 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:19:05pm

re: #521 jaunte Hey thanks my friend - what plans do y'all have for tomorrow?!

532 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:19:38pm

re: #526 David IV of Georgia

Cheap, yet surprisingly smooth, vodka.

See, if you're not careful, you may learn something.

Now, unlike good bourbon, it is not a sin to mix vodka.

533 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:19:55pm

re: #499 acapesket123

I really wish that everyone would agree to drop this subject. It's all personal, we are all persons with differring opinions.
It's been going on for weeks now and it just antagonizes those American of people of faith from their fellow Americans who are disinclined to believe in faith from those who are agnostic, Creationists, etc. from what Group "A" believe from what Group "B" and Group "C" believe.
What is the point?
We can argue and fight amongst ourselves for forever!

Isn't it more relevant that we are all Americans and the descendants of brave people before us?

Why does this issue keep coming up?

It's like trying to cull the herd!

I won't be back for a while. Not that I hardly post, but this subject just makes me Sad.


Buck up!

534 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:20:26pm

re: #485 Syrah

There is nothing wrong with wealth.

Mark 10: 17-30

The difficulty with wealth is in owning it, and preventing it from owning you.

Clement of Alexandria said the same thing some 1500+ years ago.

535 Winslow  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:20:42pm

Charles, you're the best.

536 acapesket123  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:21:01pm

Didn't think so!
And yes. I am a proud Coddah too!

537 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:21:07pm

re: #507 OldLineTexan

Aye, lass, but there's no need to be shoutin'.

Bourbon and branch water is an old tradition, and I have learned that a small amount is the key.

I'LL SHOUT IF I WANT TO, DAGNABIT.

*ahem*

538 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:21:09pm

re: #488 really grumpy big dog Johnson

/no comment

No quarter!

539 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:21:20pm

re: #515 Slumbering Behemoth

Well said, and that is a major thorn for me.

BTW, it should be obvious that anyone who feels tricked by Sharm's #291, or finds it unfamiliar, has not actually been reading the things that Charles and others have been posting.

I thought it obvious that the statement in #291 had been modified to make a not so subtle point, based solely on the otherwise inexplicable bolding of various words and phrases which I assume are the ones which were modified. Just my 2 cents.

540 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:21:38pm

re: #531 realwest

This is the Weekend of the Year for me; anniversary, wife's birthday, father's birthday, mother's day. Tomorrow I make two dinners, one for parents and one later for wife.

541 CapeCoddah  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:22:22pm

re: #536 acapesket123
Well, nice to meet you. If you are a lontime Falmouthite, chances are we are either related, or you know some of my family..lots of us there

542 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:22:55pm

re: #523 acapesket123

Huh?

543 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:23:18pm

re: #535 Winslow

And thanks for the poem, Winslow!
(From all of us lizards!)

544 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:23:25pm

re: #520 nyc redneck

That is a problem that I am uncomfortably familiar with myself.

I am the keeper of the family histories and relics. Nobody seems to care about that stuff but me.

In the end it is nothing.

Just dust and stuff.

It is all just trash that my heirs will just chuck when I pass.

545 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:23:51pm

re: #527 NY Nana

/I thought he said 'pepper'.

Keep your pepper up?

Well, that could be.

546 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:24:01pm

I say we cut out the fluff and start a thread where we discuss whether there is a God or not.

547 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:24:09pm

Hey its time for this birds bed time, sweet dreams lizards! have a great mom's day tomorrow!

548 acapesket123  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:24:17pm

I don't want to buck up Mandy. For some people, it's painful and that's just the way it is.
I don't need to dive in the Ocean if I know there are Sharks nearby, and that's the truth.

549 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:24:44pm

re: #546 average_guy

All of the Ben Expelled threads have done just that.

550 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:24:55pm

re: #514 song_and_dance_man

I think the hostility you're feeling towards me and my "deception" should actually be placed at the feet of those who are trying to deceive on this entire issue.

551 CapeCoddah  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:25:00pm

re: #542 MandyManners
Its an old Indian name.. lots of that on the cape. Either old english names, as required by the original town charters, Falmouth, Harwich, Chatham, for example, or Mashpee, which is a native name. Lots of towns with villages, too. gets interesting.

552 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:25:05pm

I would write a poem about it but I can't seem to find a word to rhyme with "Nantucket".

553 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:25:45pm

re: #532 OldLineTexan

See, if you're not careful, you may learn something.

Now, unlike good bourbon, it is not a sin to mix vodka.

Oh, goodness.

I'll never forget the young woman who useta' order diet soda mixed with Maker's Mark.

554 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:26:10pm

I meant lizards bed time jeeeeezzzzzz!re: #547 beachkatie

Hey its time for this birds bed time, sweet dreams lizards! have a great mom's day tomorrow!

555 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:26:21pm

re: #553 MandyManners

ouch.

556 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:26:48pm

re: #522 Salem

Seriously, Salem, WTF is that about?

/uncool non sequitur

557 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:26:51pm

re: #548 acapesket123

I don't want to buck up Mandy. For some people, it's painful and that's just the way it is.
I don't need to dive in the Ocean if I know there are Sharks nearby, and that's the truth.

Chuck (not Norris) me in the shallow water

558 CapeCoddah  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:27:29pm

re: #552 average_guy
google Nantucket limericks, they are out there

559 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:27:46pm

re: #546 average_guy

I say we cut out the fluff and start a thread where we discuss whether there is a God or not.

That is the root of the ID/Evolution question. What was first? But I daresay that anonymous people grandstanding on a thread on the web is hardly likely to convince anyone of anything.

560 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:27:51pm

re: #553 MandyManners

Oh, goodness.

I'll never forget the young woman who useta' order diet soda mixed with Maker's Mark.

I think that's still a capital crime in KY and VA,.... although the stoopid Supreme Court probably won't let us get away w/ hangin' 'em for it much longer.

561 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:27:52pm

re: #555 jaunte

ouch.

Ouch, indeed.

562 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:28:03pm
563 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:28:10pm

re: #547 beachkatie

Weet dreams.

Keep a cool head and remember the Iron Fist rule.

You caused us some distress the other day.

Glad to see you have thought better of the situation.

564 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:28:26pm

re: #540 jaunte WOW! How come you're still up at this hour?! LOL!
Seriously my friend, Happy Anniversary and Happy Birthday to your Dad and to your Wife!
Sounds to me like you're gonna have a BLAST tomorrow! I sure hope so!

565 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:28:55pm

re: #515 Slumbering Behemoth

BTW, it should be obvious that anyone who feels tricked by Sharm's #291, or finds it unfamiliar, has not actually been reading the things that Charles and others have been posting.

To me, those who proffer arguments in defense of the DI's dishonest, political agenda without looking into all the information that has been provided are doing a grave disservice to themselves.

Very well said, and thank you.

566 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:29:28pm

Chuck Norris for SCOTUS.
That's my pick.

567 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:29:33pm

Nobody rides the high horse on these threads.

Are there any of you have you never had something happen in your life that didn't appear to be G_d sent or supernatural?

Are there any of you that don't believe in science?

Poetry at it's most beautiful comes from the soul.

Technology at it's most useful comes from the mind.

To be completely spiritual and blind to the explainable workings of the world around you is like wearing blinders.

To be completely scientific and blind to the unexplainable wonders is like wearing blinders.

A good theologian strives for the greater truth.

A good Scientist strives for the greater truth.

Too ignore any argument in what we don't understand indicates we have just decided we are a G-d and Know better than all those below us.

568 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:29:39pm

re: #548 acapesket123

I don't want to buck up Mandy. For some people, it's painful and that's just the way it is.
I don't need to dive in the Ocean if I know there are Sharks nearby, and that's the truth.

I can understand that!

569 Thanos  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:29:50pm

Winslow, great work there friend. We have another long thread, but a quick skimming shows civility and reason, an improvement to be sure.

570 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:30:22pm

re: #564 realwest

Thanks; luckily everyone involved has gotten pretty relaxed about what happens when. We'll have fun; you do the same!

571 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:30:44pm
572 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:31:22pm

re: #551 CapeCoddah

Its an old Indian name.. lots of that on the cape. Either old english names, as required by the original town charters, Falmouth, Harwich, Chatham, for example, or Mashpee, which is a native name. Lots of towns with villages, too. gets interesting.

I don't get the connection.

573 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:31:43pm

re: #559 David IV of Georgia
But I daresay that anonymous people grandstanding on a thread on the web is hardly likely to convince anyone of anything.

If that's the case then we are all just wasting time...for that matter most of us are anonymous as well.

574 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:31:49pm

re: #539 Opilio

That, too, should have been a dead give-away.

But without the bold-type, it should have been just as easily realized by those who have been paying attention.

575 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:32:29pm
576 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:32:37pm

re: #544 Syrah "I am the keeper of the family histories and relics. Nobody seems to care about that stuff but me.

In the end it is nothing."

If it's true that nobody cares about that stuff except you and that your heirs will just chuck it when you pass, then that is all of their loss. But while you are here, they are histories and relics that are treasures to you and therefore more than worth keeping.

577 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:32:37pm

re: #567 x-ray


Are there any of you have you never had something happen in your life that didn't appear to be G_d sent or supernatural?

If I understand the question correctly, my answer is "no". I have never had anything "supernatural" happen to me.

578 CapeCoddah  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:33:17pm

re: #572 MandyManners
Sorry, mistake, I misinterperted. It actually has no meaning, because I am reading half asleep, My apologies!

579 JeremyR  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:33:42pm

re: #507 OldLineTexan

The door blew open and Jack blew in
He looked at the barkeep and said with a grin
I must be going I really can’t stay
So pour me a drink and I’ll be on my way
Barkeep said ... “What’ll it be?”

I’ll have one whiskey, one porter, one rye
And bring me some cider I’ll give that a try
Bring me two rums, one buttered one cold
And bring me a scotch at least 7 years old

Then bring on the wine I’ll start with the Port
And wash it all down with a beer of some sort
The brandy and sherry some grog and some ale
Some old mountain dew and a good howlin’ gale

Mead, stout, vermouth and gin
Vodka, bourbon, and a sly grin
Moonshine, tequila, cognac and schnapps
Some old sour mash and two belly flops
Goldwasser, ouzo, white lightning, green toad
Absinthe, sombuca, and one for the road!

580 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:33:54pm

re: #577 Occasional Reader

At least you left out G-d sent.

581 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:34:01pm

re: #494 beachkatie

He's doing 2 of the twelve things he said would ruin the country. What has changed between now and when he wrote that? Something really happened to him. There's been a drastic shift in his thinking.

582 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:34:04pm

re: #560 wolfie

I think that's still a capital crime in KY and VA,.... although the stoopid Supreme Court probably won't let us get away w/ hangin' 'em for it much longer.


To me, it's like wearing a cheap-ass poncho from Wal*Mart over a Ralph Lauren suit.

583 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:34:10pm

re: #563 Syrah

Weet dreams.

Keep a cool head and remember the Iron Fist rule.

You caused us some distress the other day.

Glad to see you have thought better of the situation.


thanks Sarah! I do feel better now! Sweet dreams to ya ' weet dreams to ya, i mean it!See ya soon tomorrow!

584 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:34:41pm

A goodnight gift of Tex Ritter:

Rye Whiskey

WARNING: CONTAINS YODELIN' AND HOLLERIN'

585 acapesket123  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:34:44pm

re: #557 OldLineTexan
Thanks OLT. Just finished the Indiana Jones Series with my boys on TNT.
Have had too many people that I love pass away in a short period of time. My family went from 6 to 3 people in 4 years. I Do not like the subject for personal reasons.
Don't wish to engage in an arguement.

Mandy. sorry for the confusion. New to interacting and I am pathetically not HTML savvy.

586 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:34:55pm

GAZE.

587 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:35:22pm

re: #580 x-ray

At least you left out G-d sent.

I include that under the category of "supernatural".

588 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:35:54pm

re: #571 song_and_dance_man

First of all- I asked everyone to comment on it, which few have. Then I asked you and Sage specifically because I had engaged both of you to read more about DI, which you both were not interested in doing.

It was an exercise in intellectual honesty. Or do you really not want to know about people trying to undermine your child's education and our system of Law?

589 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:36:05pm

re: #581 Killgore Trout

He's doing 2 of the twelve things he said would ruin the country. What has changed between now and when he wrote that? Something really happened to him. There's been a drastic shift in his thinking.


SO what can ya do with the situation?//

590 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:36:09pm

re: #586 MandyManners

GAZE.

At whom?

591 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:37:13pm

re: #587 Occasional Reader

Ok then there is nothing in life you can't explain and I am wrong.

592 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:37:26pm

re: #565 Sharmuta

Your welcome. Now, about that drink...
/

593 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:38:28pm

re: #592 Slumbering Behemoth

Your welcome. Now, about that drink...
/


A whiskey?

594 NY Nana  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:38:40pm

re: #530 nyc redneck

i agree completely. he's the default guy but far and away better than the commies

Absolutely. The 2 Alinskyites?

And McCain is a true hero. Shrillary's political partner was a draft dodger, who protested the war in front of the US Embassy in London...where he was studying on a Fulbright.

595 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:38:47pm

re: #575 song_and_dance_man

And I think an honest question merits an honest answer. I have yet to find that coming from you so far on this thread.

What is your question? Why did I do that?

Because I wanted to see the level of intellectual honesty.

What I've found out instead is something different.

596 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:39:26pm

re: #571 song_and_dance_man

I've used the same gimmick before too, I find it very interesting. If I post a story about a priest raping children nobody will comment or they'll call me an anti-catholic bigot. If I edit the post and insert imam everybody is outraged (and then pissed when they discover the trick). If we were to be honest with ourselves shouldn't we be equally outraged at priests and imams raping children? We should also be equally outraged at Islamist and Christian groups who launch dishonest propaganda campaigns. I see no reason to give one group a pass while condemning the other. Dishonesty is dishonesty.

597 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:39:43pm

re: #584 OldLineTexan

Tex Ritter's 1933 'gallon of rye whiskey for a $5 bill' would cost $81.80 today in 2008 dollars.

598 yooby1  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:39:48pm

Methinks the keepers of the "theory" protests too much. If you believe in Darwinism and its faulty science, so be it. A monkey's grandnephew ye shall be. For me, God and His son are much more believable as Creators of it all. An eye has always been an eye..and Darwinists have never been able to reasonably claim that primordial ooze could grow own. The simplest point of the many failures of the evolution theory is the there is no identfiable link for the "evolution" of complex structures.

599 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:40:05pm

re: #591 x-ray

Ok then there is nothing in life you can't explain and I am wrong.

No, you're not.

600 acapesket123  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:40:15pm

re: #586 MandyManners

601 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:40:20pm

re: #589 beachkatie

SO what can ya do with the situation?


Expose him. Why wouldn't I?

602 Salem  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:40:24pm

re: #556 Slumbering Behemoth

Seriously, Salem, WTF is that about?

/uncool non sequitur

Not at all. According to Geoddessintheclassroom, God likes a good laugh at our expense.

603 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:40:33pm

re: #591 x-ray

Ok then there is nothing in life you can't explain

Of course, that's not what I said. But I doubt that will matter, will it?

604 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:41:17pm

re: #598 yooby1

WELCOME!

605 FoolsMate  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:41:31pm

fantastic!

606 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:41:35pm

re: #596 Killgore Trout

I've used the same gimmick before too, I find it very interesting. If I post a story about a priest raping children nobody will comment or they'll call me an anti-catholic bigot. If I edit the post and insert imam everybody is outraged (and then pissed when they discover the trick). If we were to be honest with ourselves shouldn't we be equally outraged at priests and imams raping children? We should also be equally outraged at Islamist and Christian groups who launch dishonest propaganda campaigns. I see no reason to give one group a pass while condemning the other. Dishonesty is dishonesty.

Hey they have done it in other religions too!

607 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:41:38pm

re: #603 Occasional Reader

Did you read the first sentence of the post you replied too?

608 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:41:54pm

Well it's been fun tonight, but I gotta get some sleep.
I hope you all have a GREAT NIGHT and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Goodnight All.

609 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:42:09pm

re: #606 beachkatie

Hey they have done it in other religions too!


They sure have.

610 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:42:12pm
611 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:42:42pm
612 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:42:46pm

bbl

613 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:43:07pm

re: #576 realwest

I agree. To me, they are worth keeping.

But in the end. it is important to understand that we are ephemeral beings living but a brief time on this mortal plain.

The family heirlooms will be of no use to me beyond this life.

I own these relics. They do not own me. I will act as a custodian of them while I live in case any in the family decide they see a value in them.

But in the end, they are just things. Wood and stone and glass. Just stuff.

They might be missed a year or two after they are gone, but one hundred years, or even a thousand years from now, they will be as nothing.

It is important for all of us, especially those of us who care for the family keepsakes to remember that they are just things to be owned, not things to own us.

614 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:43:31pm

re: #607 x-ray

Did you read the first sentence of the post you replied too?

Ummm, it was a one-sentence post, so yeah, I'm pretty sure I did. What's your point?

615 JeremyR  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:45:08pm

re: #610 savage_nation

hey katie

Greetings from Kansas. We are having a very strong north wind tonight, kindly go out and fix that fence of yours, since its the only thing to slow this breeze down between Kansas and Canada.

616 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:45:28pm

re: #611 song_and_dance_man

Ah, I get it . Deception is an exercise in intellectual honesty. That is silly.

Hey- I know! How about you get hung up on my trick instead of concerning yourself with an agenda that's really trying to trick you.

You want to be angry with me- fine. I'm not the one trying to undermine your child's education or your Constitutional rights.

617 pat  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:45:54pm

This has gotten complex, hasn't it?

618 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:46:12pm
619 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:46:27pm
620 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:47:40pm

re: #614 Occasional Reader

PIMF the first sentence of the first post you replied too?

From #567
Nobody rides the high horse on these threads.

621 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:47:44pm

A blind man is sitting on a park bench. A rabbi sits down next to him. The rabbi is chomping on a piece of matzah. Taking pity on the blind man, he breaks off a piece and gives it to the blind man.

Several minutes later, the blind man turns taps the rabbi on the shoulder and asks, "Who wrote this shit?"

622 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:48:55pm

My 'Creationist' 'mormon' 2 cents in a drive by post (I wish I could stay longer).

“There must be something greater, so there must be a Creator,” but
Creators need creators too;


If You Could Hie to Kolob, 284 - William W. Phelps

1. If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity,
Find out the generation Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end?
Me thinks the Spirit whispers, “No man has found ‘pure space,’
Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place.”

3. The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue; There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom; There is no end to light.
There is no end to union; There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood; There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;
There is no end to being; There is no death above.
There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;
There is no end to being; There is no death above.

Just a hymn we 'mormons' sing once in a while on Sundays.


6 April 1844 -Joseph Smith said, "Now the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos--chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and reorganized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.350-352). (See Creation) [1]

Einstein: "I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice."
September 1905 - "E=MC^2"...

Just to mix things up a little.

IMHO: God is Omniscient = Omni Science = All Science.

Works for me. That doesn't however remove the obligation we have to keep studying and questioning and learning as much as possible in all areas of science.

Night all and Happy Mother's Day tomorrow/Today for those of you on the far side of the world...!

623 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:49:13pm

re: #621 Racer X

*whack*

624 Winslow  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:49:15pm

re: #569 Thanos

Thank you, Thanos. Nice to see you on this thread.

625 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:49:20pm

re: #621 Racer X

LMAO

626 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:49:45pm

re: #620 x-ray


N

obody rides the high horse on these threads.

Uh huh. And? You asked a question, I answered it.

627 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:49:59pm

re: #621 Racer X

Ha!

628 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:50:08pm

re: #606 beachkatie

Hey they have done it in other religions too!

Were would there be another good place to hide a pinafile were they would pay your education and room and board?

629 JeremyR  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:50:22pm

re: #618 savage_nation

Too late, it blew down 2 hours ago.

We are getting some freakish winds up here too

When it first started, I thought we were getting a twister. Several pieces of soffit blew out and a lot of stuff in the yard headed for the neighbors place.

630 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:50:37pm
631 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:50:41pm

re: #613 Syrah Saw your post and had to come back for one last comment tonight:
"They might be missed a year or two after they are gone, but one hundred years, or even a thousand years from now, they will be as nothing.

It is important for all of us, especially those of us who care for the family keepsakes to remember that they are just things to be owned, not things to own us."
One could easily say that about any and all of us, as well - that after one hundred years or a thousand years we will have been as nothing. But you are here now and you do treasure those family keepsakes and NOW that's really all that matters, isn't it?
Good night.

632 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:51:05pm

re: #621 Racer X

Heh.

633 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:51:12pm

OK, you will hate this one then.


Two nuns cycling down a cobbled street. The first one says "I've never come this way before"

The second one replies "Must be the cobbles"

634 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:51:48pm
635 NY Nana  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:51:53pm

re: #545 MandyManners

Keep your pepper up?

Well, that could be.

;)

636 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:52:13pm

re: #610 savage_nation

hey katie

hEY buddY! How ya been today?

637 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:52:31pm

re: #633 Racer X

A rabbi, a lawyer and a priest are on a sinking ship...

[okay, I'll just stop right there]

638 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:52:49pm

During a Papal audience, a business man approached the Pope and made this offer: Change the last line of the Lord's prayer from "give us this day our daily bread" to "give us this day our daily chicken." and KFC will donate 10 million dollars to Catholic charities. The Pope declined.

2 weeks later the man approached the Pope again. This time with a 50 million dollar offer. Again the Pope declined.

A month later the man offers 100 million, this time the Pope accepts. At a meeting of the Cardinals, The Pope announces his decision in the good news/bad news format.
The good news is... that we have 100 million dollars for charities.

The bad news is that we lost the Wonder Bread account!

639 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:53:05pm

re: #593 beachkatie

Whiskey Sour, no sugar, no cherry, heavy on the lemon.
/thnx

640 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:53:06pm

Major derail on the way!

641 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:53:14pm

re: #619 song_and_dance_man

I did. Again- you weren't interested. So I took a different tactic, but since I have your attention:

*"Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of intelligent design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools."
*"This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science. Its about religion and philosophy."
* "The objective (of the wedge strategy) is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to 'the truth' of the Bible and then 'the question of sin' and finally 'introduced to Jesus.'"

I have a problem with this from a Constitutional point of view. Do you?

642 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:53:20pm

A beautiful, voluptuous woman goes to a gynecologist. The doctor takes one look at this woman and all his professionalism goes out the window. He immediately tells her to undress.

After she has disrobed, he begins to stroke her thigh. As he does this he says to the woman, "Do you know what I'm doing?" "Yes," she says, "you're checking for any abrasions or dermatological abnormalities." "That is correct," says the doctor.

He then begins to fondle her breasts. "Do you know what I'm doing now?" he asks. "Yes," says the woman, "you're checking for any lumps or breast cancer." "That's right," replies the doctor.

He then begins to have intercourse with the woman. He says to her, "Do you know what I'm doing now?"

"Yes," she says. "You're getting herpes, which is why I came here in the first place."

643 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:53:24pm
644 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:53:51pm
645 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:54:23pm

re: #642 average_guy

Fuck you.

646 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:54:49pm

I guess that last post was OT

647 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:55:10pm
648 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:55:27pm

re: #645 MandyManners

Mandy: Sorry, did not mean to offend

649 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:56:08pm

re: #628 beachkatie

Were would there be another good place to hide a pinafile were they would pay your education and room and board?

Are you asking yourself a question?

And what's a pinafile?

650 mich-again  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:56:09pm
Though Darwin’s Evolution is an elegant solution to
The origin of species,

That verse conveniently evades the whole argument. I agree with Darwin on the theory of evolution. But evolution and creation are completely separate. I don't know how life first started on Earth and neither does anyone else, although many theories abound. And that is the point I've made many times about how atheism is just another form of religion which I am proud to see made it into the trite little poem. Aw how nice . A Mother's Day poem on LGF!

To be absolutely sure that there is no creator is just as unprovable and requires the same amount of blind faith as it takes to be absolutely sure that there is one, or more than one for that matter.

Whats the point of even arguing that? Anyone.. Anyone.. Buehler...

651 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:56:09pm

A priest walked into a barber shop in Washington, D.C. After he got his haircut, he asked how much it would be. The barber said, "No charge. I consider it a service to the Lord."

The next morning, the barber came to work and there were 12 prayer books and a thank you note from the priest in front of the door.

Later that day, a police officer came in and got his hair cut. He then asked how much it was. The barber said, "No charge. I consider it a service to the community."

The next morning, he came to work and there were a dozen donuts and a thank you note from the police officer.

Then, a Senator came in and got a haircut. When he was done he asked how much it was. The barber said, "No charge. I consider it a service to the country."

The next morning, the barber came to work and there were 12 Senators in front of the door.

652 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:56:14pm

re: #626 Occasional Reader

If you have never had a feeling that something in your life was weird/supernatural/G-d sent. Than you and I are too different too have a discussion on this topic.

If the discussion is going to be about Semantics I will also lose since my skills in the english language are limited an I know it.

653 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:56:39pm

re: #645 MandyManners

Fuck you.

Uh, Mandy? What's the problem?

654 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:56:44pm

re: #648 average_guy

I just got my knickers in a twist!

655 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:57:23pm

re: #606 beachkatie

Hey they have done it in other religions too!

Likewise with secularists, agnostics, and atheists.
Agendas. Plenty of agendas. Plenty of propaganda in the schools.
Individual crimes.
Plenty.

656 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:57:25pm

re: #633 Racer X

OK, you will hate this one then.


Two nuns cycling down a cobbled street. The first one says "I've never come this way before"

The second one replies "Must be the cobbles"

:-D

657 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:57:38pm

re: #631 realwest

Goodnight RW.

Sleep well.

658 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:57:48pm

re: #653 Occasional Reader

Uh, Mandy? What's the problem?

Please, see me No. 654.

659 Cartman  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:58:20pm

re: #649 Opilio

And what's a pinafile?

I was sort of wondering that myself, but was afraid to ask. ;)

660 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:59:19pm

re: #618 savage_nation

Too late, it blew down 2 hours ago.

We are getting some freakish winds up here too


We have had the same winds down at the beach today! They say we are going to have weird weather tomorrow! which is now!Most likely tornado's!

661 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:59:22pm

Mandy:

No problem, I been there-done that myself.

I promise I'll do better next time...

662 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:59:27pm

There's this old priest who got sick of all the people in his parish who kept confessing to adultery. One Sunday, in the pulpit, he said, "if I hear one more person confess to adultery, I'll quit!"

Well, everyone liked him, so they came up with a code word. Someone who had committed adultery would say they had "fallen". This seemed to satisfy the old priest and things went well, until the priest died at a ripe old age.

About a week after the new priest arrived, he visited the Mayor of the town and seemed very concerned. The priest said, "you have to do something about the sidewalks in town. When people come into the confessional, they keep talking about having fallen."

The Mayor started to laugh, realizing that no-one had told the new priest about the code word. Before the mayor could explain, the priest shook an accusing finger at the mayor and said, "I don't know what you're laughing about, Your wife fell three times this week."

663 JeremyR  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:59:51pm

re: #634 savage_nation

My house is on a barren hill. No trees close at all. Love the view, but this wind gets me some times.

664 Ma Sands  Sat, May 10, 2008 9:59:53pm

re: #647 savage_nation

(Just don't want you to miss that I thanked you, I'm sure after you left that thread, for the Star Wars episode.....I did enjoy that! :)

665 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:00:03pm

Stalking can freak out the most level-headed person.

666 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:00:16pm
667 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:00:58pm
668 George guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:01:17pm

re: #291 Sharmuta
I suppose we can call this the Mad Libs fallacy. To illustrate.

Phase I is the essential component of everything that comes afterward. Without solid scholarship, research and argument, the project would be just another attempt to indoctrinate instead of persuade. A lesson we have learned from the history of free-market capitalism is that it is unnecessary to outnumber the opposing establishment. Capitalist revolutions are usually staged by an initially small and relatively young group of entrepreneurs who are not blinded by the prevailing prejudices and who are able to do creative work at the pressure points, that is, on those critical issues upon which whole systems of thought hinge. So, in Phase I we are supporting vital witting and research at the sites most likely to crack the socialist edifice.

Phase II. The primary purpose of Phase II is to prepare the popular reception of our ideas. The best and truest research can languish unread and unused unless it is properly publicized. For this reason we seek to cultivate and convince influential individuals in print and broadcast media, as well as think tank leaders, scientists and academics, congressional staff, talk show hosts, college and seminary presidents and faculty, future talent and potential academic allies. Because of his long tenure in politics, journalism and public policy, William F. Buckley, Jr. brings to the project rare knowledge and acquaintance of key op-ed writers, journalists, and political leaders. This combination of philosophical and scholarly expertise and media and political connections makes the Wedge unique, and also prevents it from being "merely academic." Other activities include production of a PBS documentary on the free market and its implications, and popular op-ed publishing. Alongside a focus on influential opinion-makers, we also seek to build up a popular base of support among our natural constituency, namely, Republicans. We will do this primarily through apologetics seminars. We intend these to encourage and equip believers with new economic evidence's [sic!] that support the philosophy, as well as to "popularize" our ideas in the broader culture.

Phase III. Once our research and writing have had time to mature, and the public prepared for the reception of free-market principles, we will move toward direct confrontation with the advocates of socialism through challenge conferences in significant academic settings. We will also pursue possible legal assistance in response to resistance to the integration of laissez-faire economics into public school math and social studies curricula. The attention, publicity, and influence of capitalism should draw Marxists into open debate with capitalists, and we will be ready. With an added emphasis to the social sciences and humanities, we will begin to address the specific social consequences of Marxism and the American theory that supports it in the political sciences.

669 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:01:23pm

re: #650 mich-again

To be absolutely sure that there is no creator is just as unprovable and requires the same amount of blind faith as it takes to be absolutely sure that there is one

Actually, as a strictly logical matter: No, not true. But I'm too tired to go through this again... off to bed.

Nytol!

670 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:02:28pm

re: #650 mich-again

That verse conveniently evades the whole argument. I agree with Darwin on the theory of evolution. But evolution and creation are completely separate. I don't know how life first started on Earth and neither does anyone else, although many theories abound. And that is the point I've made many times about how atheism is just another form of religion which I am proud to see made it into the trite little poem. Aw how nice . A Mother's Day poem on LGF!

To be absolutely sure that there is no creator is just as unprovable and requires the same amount of blind faith as it takes to be absolutely sure that there is one, or more than one for that matter.

Whats the point of even arguing that? Anyone.. Anyone.. Buehler...

Well- that's why I'm not trying to argue that point. It's very personal for everyone. However, I would think by now that most people would realize that when Charles tells us there's an agenda, he's not just blowing sunshine up our asses, and maybe we should pay attention to what he's pointing out for us. But maybe it's just me....

671 pat  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:02:40pm

Mandy does not mind consensual sex.re: #662 Racer X

672 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:02:46pm

re: #669 Occasional Reader

Good Night OR.

673 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:03:05pm

re: #661 average_guy

Mandy:

No problem, I been there-done that myself.

I promise I'll do better next time...

An ordinary, average guy?

674 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:03:40pm

re: #669 Occasional Reader

Actually, as a strictly logical matter: No, not true. But I'm too tired to go through this again... off to bed.

Nytol!

Classic tactic: "You're wrong. I'm right! Neener, neener! Bye!"

675 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:03:50pm

re: #668 George guy

I think we can change it to display whatever agenda we'd like it to say. Doesn't change the fact that it's an outlined agenda, does it?

676 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:04:06pm

CINDERELLA wants to go to the ball, but her wicked stepmother won't let her. As Cinderella sits crying in the garden, her fairy godmother appears, and promised to provide Cinderella with everything she needs to go to the ball, but only on two conditions. "First, you must wear a diaphragm."

Cinderella agrees. "What's the second condition?"

"You must be home by 2:00 a.m. Any later, and your diaphragm will turn into a pumpkin."

Cinderella agrees to be home by 2:00 a.m. The appointed hour comes and goes, and Cinderella doesn't show up. Finally, at 5:00 a.m. Cinderella shows up, looking love struck and very satisfied.

"Where have you been?" demands the Fairy Godmother. "Your diaphragm was supposed to turn into a pumpkin three hours ago!"

"I met a prince, Fairy Godmother. He took care of everything."

The Fairy Godmother stated, "I know of no prince with that kind of power! Tell me his name!"

Cinderella replied, I can't remember, exactly, Peter, Peter, something or other..."

677 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:04:36pm

re: #666 savage_nation

You close to a storm cellar?


Yes!

678 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:05:05pm
679 pat  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:05:24pm

I have an incredible collection of cigar boxes. Cardboard and wood. i do not smoke. I hate smoking cigars.

680 JeremyR  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:05:47pm

re: #665 MandyManners

Stalking can freak out the most level-headed person.

So, who are you freaking out tonight?

681 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:05:50pm
682 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:05:59pm

re: #602 Salem

As a response to her comment in question, it certainly was a non sequitur.

I've noticed that you and I have significant areas which we can agree upon, but that remark of yours seemed a bit harsh to me , and had nothing to do with the comment you were quoting. It just seemed like a cheap shot.

683 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:06:01pm

re: #676 average_guy

I laughed. Very loudly.

684 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:06:06pm

re: #674 Opilio

Classic tactic: "You're wrong. I'm right! Neener, neener! Bye!"

Oh, bite me.

The "... it takes the same amount of faith..." trope has been addressed time and again in these threads. Look it up.

Good night!

685 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:06:06pm

Two old Jewish men are strolling down the street one day when they happen to walk by a Catholic church. They see a big sign posted that says, "Covert to Catholicism and get $10."

One of the Jewish men stops walking and stares at the sign. His friend turns to him and says, "Murray, what's going on?"

"Abe," replies Murray, "I'm thinking of doing it."

Abe says, "What are you, crazy?"

Murray thinks for a minute and says, "Abe, I'm going to do it."

With that, Murray strides purposefully into the church and comes out twenty minutes later with his head bowed. "So," asks Abe, "did you get your ten dollars?"

Murray looks up at him and says, "Is that all you people think of?"

686 mich-again  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:06:36pm

Oh by the way, Does poster Winslow ever enter the debates in threads or is he more of a sh*t house poet who just scribbles on the wall in the stall?

Because I'd love to read his authoritative teaching on how life actually started.

687 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:06:50pm

Going to church at 5:30pm for moms day!

688 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:07:23pm

re: #670 Sharmuta

Science education is the issue, and up above you quoted a key thought from the Institute's wedge strategy:

*"Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of intelligent design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools."
*"This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science. Its about religion and philosophy."

It's a perfectly legitimate debate to have in a religious or philosophical context, but it's not, in their own words, part of science or science education.

689 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:07:45pm

re: #681 savage_nation

(spitting my coffee on my keyboard)

690 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:08:40pm
691 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:08:52pm

re: #679 pat

I have an incredible collection of cigar boxes. Cardboard and wood. i do not smoke. I hate smoking cigars.


collect Zippo's lighters ,the are worth more!

692 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:09:39pm

re: #688 jaunte

Exactly.

693 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:10:10pm

An Italian is drinking in a New York bar when he gets a call on his cell
phone. He hangs up, grinning from ear to ear, and orders a round of
drinks for everybody in the bar announcing his wife had produced a
typical Italian baby boy weighing 25 pounds.


Nobody can believe that any new baby can weigh in at 25 pounds, but
the Italian guy just shrugs, "That's about average back home,
folks......like I said, my boy's a typical Italian bambino."


Congratulations showered him from all around, and many exclamations of
"WOW"....one woman actually fainted due to sympathy pains. Two weeks later he returns to the bar. The bartender says, "Say you're the father of that typical Italian baby that weighed 25 pounds at birth. Everybody's been making bets about how big he'd be in two weeks. So how much does he weigh now?" The proud father answers, "Seventeen pounds."
The bartender is puzzled, concerned, and a little suspicious.
"What happened? He already weighed 25 pounds the day he was born!"
The Italian father takes a long swig of Sambuca, wipes his lips on his
shirt sleeve, leans into the bartender and proudly says.....

"We had him circumcised."

694 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:10:52pm
695 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:11:32pm

re: #690 savage_nation

LOL

696 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:11:46pm
697 ggt  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:13:05pm

Good Evening Lizards! It was rainy in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland today.

I asked my Cat Overlord how Lizardoids evolved, he yawned and went to sleep on my feet.

How are you-all this evening/morning and is it safe to come in and stay?

698 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:13:48pm

Bill Clinton is out for his morning jog around the white house with the secret
service agents. Around one corner is a prostitute who yells, "Hey Bill, $100"
and Bill says "no $20". This goes on for weeks as each morning the same scenario
plays out. One night Hillary tells Bill that tomorrow she is going to join him
on his morning jog. He's a bit nervous because he knows the prostitute will be
out there. He informs the secret service to go across the street and then turn
instead of the usual way. The next morning Bill and Hillary and the Secret
Service are out for the jog and they approach the corner and go across to the
park. The prostitute sees them and keeps pacing back and forth. She finally
yells out, "Hey Bill, see what $20 gets you!"

699 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:14:02pm

just pokin' my head in to see how things are going. thanks for the jokes, i'm out!

700 ggt  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:14:29pm

re: #691 beachkatie

My Dear Ole' Dad used to soak off the paper from the wooden cigar boxes and use the wood for his projects. Nice wood, I guess.

701 JeremyR  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:14:33pm

re: #681 savage_nation

A fellow went to the doctor complaining about his wifes lack of a sex drive.
The doctor gave him some capsules and told the guy to put one in his wifes after supper coffee.
That night he slipped on in.
About midnight she wojke him up and said "I need a man, BAD!".
The messed arround the rest of the night.
The following evening he again slipped one into her drink, and after a little thought decided he'd best take ona as well if he wanted to keep up with her.
Sure enough, arround midnight she rolled over and said "I need a man, BAD.
He replied, "Yeah, I need one too!"

702 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:14:49pm

re: #697 ggt

It's pretty relaxed tonight. Hardly any visible blood or eyepoking.

703 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:15:15pm
704 Bill K.  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:15:19pm

A poll should be taken to see how many LGFers take the side of Darwin and Evolution and how many are for Intelligent Design.

Just to make it interesting the poll should not be secret. When the results are published you can see where each username stands.

705 Thanos  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:15:24pm

The thing that rubs me wrong about DI is the false dichotomy they present, pitting science against religion. There's no need, for if you believe in G-d and he does exist then you get the last laugh as the evolutionists make a final discovery do you not?

It's in the verge between science, art, religion, and philosophy that humanity truly finds the sublime, the penultimate in creativity, passion, and reason. They shouldn't be adversaries, but instead support and nurture and challenge each other.

I'm an aetheist but if there were a button which would make it so all people became non-believers and religion never existed at all I would guard it with my life to ensure it never got pressed. Too much good has come from religion, regardless of the faults rabid secularists have found with it.

So fie on the DI, they seek a war where none should exist.

That said, I am off to bed so goodnite all, and as Obi Wan sez, play nice.

706 Dan G.  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:15:35pm

re: #674 Opilio

Classic tactic: "You're wrong. I'm right! Neener, neener! Bye!"

If a definition of an entity consists of a/many contradiction(s), then either the entity described doesn't exist, or doesn't posses the properties predicated of it.

707 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:15:56pm
708 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:16:38pm

re: #697 ggt

Good Evening Lizards! It was rainy in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland today.

I asked my Cat Overlord how Lizardoids evolved, he yawned and went to sleep on my feet.

How are you-all this evening/morning and is it safe to come in and stay?

You will need a thick scaly Lizard skin today.

Otherwise, all is well.

709 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:17:27pm

re: #696 savage_nation

A man and his dog were walking along a road. The man was enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead.
He remembered dying, and that the dog walking beside him had been dead for years. He wondered where the road was leading them.

After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road It looked like fine marble. At the top of a long hill, it was broken by a tall arch that glowed in the sunlight.

When he was standing before it he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like mother-of-pearl, and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold. He and the dog walked toward the gate, and as he got closer, he saw a man at a desk to one side

When he was close enough, he called out, "Excuse me, where are we?"

"This is Heaven, sir," the man answered.

"Wow! Would you happen to have some water?" the man asked.

"Of course, sir. Come right in, and I'll have some ice water brought right up"

The man gestured, and the gate began to open.

"Can my friend," gesturing toward his dog, "come in, too?" the traveler asked.

"I'm sorry, sir, but we don't accept pets."

The man thought a moment and then turned back toward the road and continued the way he had been going with his dog.

After another long walk, and at the top of another long hill, he came to a dirt road leading through a farm gate that looked as if it had never been closed. There was no fence.

As he approached the gate, he saw a man inside, leaning against a tree and reading a book.

"Excuse me!" he called to the man. "Do you have any water?"

"Yeah, sure, there's a pump over there, come on in."

"How about my friend here?" the traveler gestured to the dog.

"There should be a bowl by the pump."

They went through the gate, and sure enough, there was an old-fashioned hand pump with a bowl beside it.

The traveler filled the water bowl and took a long drink himself, then he gave some to the dog.

When they were full, he and the dog walked back toward the man who was standing by the tree.

"What do you call this place?" the traveler asked.

"This is Heaven," he answered.

"Well, that's confusing," the traveler said. "The man down the road said that was Heaven, too."

"Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly gates? Nope. That's hell."

"Doesn't it make you mad for them to use your name like that?"

"No, we're just happy that they screen out the folks who would leave their best friends behind."


Savage, you may not believe this but my mom would love that one, and i'm gonna tell her tomorrow.
Some people just have timing...

710 mich-again  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:17:32pm

I certainly don't want to see our public schools promoting any religious teachings about creation. And they should definitely teach evolution as a science because it is based in facts and data. But when the question comes around to just how did life form, they ought to point out that no one can say for sure. Science has many theories about how it may have started all on its own, but they are unproven and unreproducible at this time. Whats the problem with that? Isn't that what a scientist should say? I can't say for sure but I have a theory.

711 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:17:49pm

re: #696 savage_nation

A man and his dog were walking along a road. The man was enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead.
He remembered dying, and that the dog walking beside him had been dead for years. He wondered where the road was leading them.

After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road It looked like fine marble. At the top of a long hill, it was broken by a tall arch that glowed in the sunlight.

When he was standing before it he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like mother-of-pearl, and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold. He and the dog walked toward the gate, and as he got closer, he saw a man at a desk to one side

When he was close enough, he called out, "Excuse me, where are we?"

"This is Heaven, sir," the man answered.

"Wow! Would you happen to have some water?" the man asked.

"Of course, sir. Come right in, and I'll have some ice water brought right up"

The man gestured, and the gate began to open.

"Can my friend," gesturing toward his dog, "come in, too?" the traveler asked.

"I'm sorry, sir, but we don't accept pets."

The man thought a moment and then turned back toward the road and continued the way he had been going with his dog.

After another long walk, and at the top of another long hill, he came to a dirt road leading through a farm gate that looked as if it had never been closed. There was no fence.

As he approached the gate, he saw a man inside, leaning against a tree and reading a book.

"Excuse me!" he called to the man. "Do you have any water?"

"Yeah, sure, there's a pump over there, come on in."

"How about my friend here?" the traveler gestured to the dog.

"There should be a bowl by the pump."

They went through the gate, and sure enough, there was an old-fashioned hand pump with a bowl beside it.

The traveler filled the water bowl and took a long drink himself, then he gave some to the dog.

When they were full, he and the dog walked back toward the man who was standing by the tree.

"What do you call this place?" the traveler asked.

"This is Heaven," he answered.

"Well, that's confusing," the traveler said. "The man down the road said that was Heaven, too."

"Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly gates? Nope. That's hell."

"Doesn't it make you mad for them to use your name like that?"

"No, we're just happy that they screen out the folks who would leave their best friends behind."


That is the best story yet!

712 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:18:27pm
713 average_guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:20:05pm

re: #712 savage_nation

You got it.

I'm out-best wishes to you and yours.

714 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:20:26pm
715 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:20:46pm
716 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:20:56pm

re: #712 savage_nation

Sure, and tell her I said hi.

Sweetdreams to you savage_nation!

717 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:21:11pm

re: #705 Thanos

Well said.

718 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:21:39pm
719 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:22:04pm

Why I belive in G-d

Music not a scientific reason but what the hell else explains that feeling at the nape of your neck when you hear it.

This is also my anthem since I deserve even less than what has been given to me.

Difference being I don't have accountants and I live in my mansion.

720 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:22:28pm

re: #704 Bill K.

Just to make it interesting the poll should not be secret. When the results are published you can see where each username stands.


I've been advocating for a poll on the topic too but I'm afraid the results might be slightly embarrassing.

721 mich-again  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:22:56pm

I guess I am a radical centrist in this argument. I see two sides, neither of which offers up any proof for how life started. Both of which are convinced they are right and the other side is both wrong and idiotic.

722 ggt  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:23:38pm

re: #702 jaunte

re: #703 savage_nation

re: #708 Syrah

Thanks all. I usually make sure I have on my "thick skin" before I log-on. It's just no fun without it.

723 Cartman  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:25:07pm

re: #720 Killgore Trout

I've been advocating for a poll on the topic too but I'm afraid the results might be slightly embarrassing.

To whom?

724 Salem  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:25:39pm

I know an easy way to settle this: just seize Science and Religion, throw them into a cage with a couple of spiked clubs and let them fight to the death this time. That should pretty well sew up the WOT, too, one way or another.

725 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:26:38pm

re: #723 Cartman

Not sayin'

726 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:27:22pm

re: #704 Bill K.

A poll should be taken to see how many LGFers take the side of Darwin and Evolution and how many are for Intelligent Design.

I take the side of reason and independent thought. I take the side of life, liberty, and the pursuit of property. I take the side of freedom; freedom from socialism, freedom from fascism, freedom from theocracy, freedom from all failed and failing governmental constructs which seek to control, manipulate, and oppress its peoples.

In short, I am an American.

/Izzat good 'nuff for ya?

727 Cartman  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:27:23pm

re: #725 Killgore Trout

Suit yourself.

728 ggt  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:27:51pm

re: #720 Killgore Trout

I don't know how a poll would work. There are so many nuances to this topic, the poll questions would have to be very carefully devised.

Simply asking: "Do you believe in Evolution or Intelligent Design?" is way too open. Some people would equate "believe" with "religion".

or even: "Do you think that Intelligent Design is science?" is way too open --what kind of science? so-called social science, political science, empirical biological science?

I don't get the whole bru-ha-ha, so I'd probably avoid the poll.

729 JeremyR  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:27:53pm

re: #724 Salem

I know an easy way to settle this: just seize Science and Religion, throw them into a cage with a couple of spiked clubs and let them fight to the death this time. That should pretty well sew up the WOT, too, one way or another.

To be sure, the GWOT will fuel distrust of all religions and may just result in some persecution of peaceful groups.

730 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:28:02pm

re: #724 Salem

I know an easy way to settle this: just seize Science and Religion, throw them into a cage with a couple of spiked clubs and let them fight to the death this time. That should pretty well sew up the WOT, too, one way or another.


YOU ARE A SMART DUDE!SWEET DREAMS TO YA!

731 pat  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:28:05pm

My Pastor would love that joke

732 mich-again  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:28:14pm

re: #720 Killgore Trout

I think for that poll to be most useful you would have to rank between 0 and 100. 0 being absolutely sure there is no creator and 100 being absolutely sure there is. That would be more telling than just a yes or no response.

733 mikeinmd  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:28:44pm

OT, as an aside to the previous thread, I went to Wiki and looked up -phobia for want of a better term.

I found this interesting...

Below are some examples:

Chemophobia, prejudice against artificial substances in favour of 'natural' substances.
Christianophobia, fear or hatred of Christians or Christianity.
Ephebophobia, fear of youth or adolescents
Islamophobia, fear-induced prejudice against Muslims or Islamic culture.
Xenophobia, fear or dislike of strangers or the unknown, sometimes used to describe nationalistic political beliefs and movements. It is also used in fictional work to describe the fear or dislike of the space aliens.

Discuss.

734 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:29:21pm

re: #727 Cartman

Suit yourself.

WEET DREAMS TO YA CARTMAN!

735 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:29:51pm

re: #726 Slumbering Behemoth

You rock!

/Can I be on your team?

736 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:30:42pm

What happens to the souls of the abandoned dogs?

737 George guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:30:50pm

re: #710 mich-again

No matter what turns out to be the actual truth of the matter, the issue is certainly something that ought to be discussed, and since public schools are unequipped to address it in any way without being accused of violating the 1st amendment, it might be worth re-evaluating the point of whether public schools are necessary in the first place.

738 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:30:54pm

re: #696 savage_nation

A man and his dog were walking along a road. The man was enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead. ...
...
When they were full, he and the dog walked back toward the man who was standing by the tree.

"What do you call this place?" the traveler asked.

"This is Heaven," he answered.

That is essentially plot line of a 1962 episode of The Twilight Zone, called "The Hunt". That episode was written by Earl Hamner, Jr. who later went on to create "The Waltons".

739 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:31:27pm
740 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:31:30pm

re: #726 Slumbering Behemoth

I take the side of reason and independent thought. I take the side of life, liberty, and the pursuit of property. I take the side of freedom; freedom from socialism, freedom from fascism, freedom from theocracy, freedom from all failed and failing governmental constructs which seek to control, manipulate, and oppress its peoples.

In short, I am an American.

/Izzat good 'nuff for ya?

AMEN! :)

741 Cartman  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:31:35pm

re: #734 beachkatie

I don't dream, but thank you all the same, beachkatie. Same to you.

742 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:31:52pm
743 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:32:20pm

re: #705 Thanos

re: #714 savage_nation

Two fine posts, I'd say!
But I've got to try to get some sleep now.
Goodnight to all... Have a lovely Mother's Day!

744 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:32:38pm
745 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:33:22pm

re: #736 jaunte

What happens to the souls of the abandoned dogs?

In a Danteian hell, they eat the neglectful owners of pets.

746 Bill K.  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:33:52pm

#720 Killgore Trout

I would think the Evolutionists would win. It would be embarrassing if they didn't.

747 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:34:10pm

re: #745 Syrah

Ha!

748 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:34:18pm

re: #737 George guy

I think we need to make vouchers happen. You want a secular education for your child, the public schools might be for you. You want an education that's going to incorporate your religious beliefs to your child (or children)- look to a religious school. Many people don't have the option of non-public schools because of the system, but vouchers would make all the difference.

749 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:34:29pm
750 mich-again  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:34:38pm

re: #737 George guy

... it might be worth re-evaluating the point of whether public schools are necessary in the first place.

Oh they are necessary by all means. I don't quite understand how you made that leap.

751 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:35:58pm

re: #741 Cartman

I don't dream, but thank you all the same, beachkatie. Same to you.

Evewyone dweems.

752 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:36:37pm

re: #746 Bill K.

I beg to differ. I'd guess 55% creation/ID, 35% evolution, 10% don't know.

753 mich-again  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:36:52pm

re: #746 Bill K.

Is there room in that poll for people who believe in God and evolution?

754 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:37:12pm

In Dreams:

755 Cartman  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:37:21pm

re: #751 Opilio

Not moi. But that may be because I barely sleep. I believe the two are mutually exclusive. ;)

756 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:37:25pm

re: #753 mich-again

There should be.

757 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:39:00pm

re: #744 savage_nation

No kidding. I did not know that.

If you click through the link in my post, there's a 1 paragraph synopsis of the episode. It differs in a few details. For example, the old man's dog sensed that the first place wasn't Heaven. (There were not pearly gates/gold in the TV version.)

758 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:39:11pm

re: #704 Bill K.

A poll should be taken to see how many LGFers take the side of Darwin and Evolution and how many are for Intelligent Design.

Just to make it interesting the poll should not be secret. When the results are published you can see where each username stands.

The poll can't be that simple.
I'd suggest:
Pure Creation - 6 days, the world created in a finished state, etc.

Creation largely as seen in the scientific evidence, but guided by a Creator to some degree. (Maybe this needs to be split into "Monitored and G-d prevented disasters" and "Carefully monitored, and every "random" event selected")

Pure, G-dless evolution. Completely random chance. No Creator.

There probably should be at least one more level.
And no question should have purely a label like "Intelligent design"; it needs a full description of what is meant. I think ID means different things to different people.

759 mich-again  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:39:16pm

re: #752 Killgore Trout

I beg to differ. I'd guess 55% creation/ID, 35% evolution, 10% don't know.

Based on what I see, I'd say your handicapping of that race is pretty close. But it would depend on the sock puppet turnout. They're and unpredictable bunch.

760 nightwatch  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:40:01pm

artists make poems, men fight wars, leave the fight to men who fight wars. So Charles, you have pulled the curtain back a bit, wish I had a tre cray to pick your bray... bobble-bots rush in where fools master the bate..

761 Cartman  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:40:11pm

re: #752 Killgore Trout

I beg to differ. I'd guess 55% creation/ID, 35% evolution, 10% don't know.

Some of you folks insist on lumping people into strictly defined categories with regards to this issue. It's getting more than tiresome.

762 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:41:14pm

re: #759 mich-again


But it would depend on the sock puppet turnout. They're and unpredictable bunch.


I forgot the Ron Paul factor!

763 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:41:40pm

Luap Nor all the way down.

764 mich-again  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:41:42pm

There are the ones who believe in no God. And there are the ones who believe in God. But the smartest ones of all are the folks who paid for the billboard I have for an Avatar.

765 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:43:03pm

There is something I can't get my head around.

I have trouble with any religion that believes it's creator is too stupid to put into place evolution. And also anyone that discounts there is a creator because of evolution.

766 savage_nation[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:43:18pm
767 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:43:35pm

re: #761 Cartman

Some of you folks insist on lumping people into strictly defined categories with regards to this issue. It's getting more than tiresome


There's plenty of nuance in those categories but those are the basic divisions. If you find it troublesome I could dig up the poll of evolution belief broken down by religion. Would that make you feel better?

768 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:44:19pm

re: #692 Sharmuta

What strikes me as interesting is that the DI folks use the exact same style of argument as the liberals we commonly complain about. They attempt to get their form of a fairness doctrine. They commonly enlist "experts" who really aren't experts at all. They quote mine a la those wacky Daily Kos twits. They also attempt to shut down any real debate on the subject no different than the politicial proponents of global warming.

Why would we have people who oppose relativism everywhere else, but when it comes down to a concept they hold near and dear, relativism is OK?

769 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:45:44pm

re: #761 Cartman
Just in case it makes you feel better; Evolution acceptance by religion

770 Bill K.  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:46:24pm

#753 mich-again

Is there room in that poll for people who believe in God and evolution?

Yes, but understand Evolution does not need a god in any way.

771 Cartman  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:46:42pm

re: #767 Killgore Trout

No, as I'm not asking to "feel better". Besides, I broke my promise to myself that I would no longer indulge in this revolving door of discourse. My bad. Carry on.

772 Salem  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:46:53pm

re: #765 x-ray

There is something I can't get my head around.

I have trouble with any religion that believes it's creator is too stupid to put into place evolution. And also anyone that discounts there is a creator because of evolution.

I discount that there is a creator because of a vast multitude of factors. Though for obvious reasons, evolution doesn't go very far to support the notion of a creator.

773 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:49:49pm

re: #769 Killgore Trout

I'm trying to imagine the composition of a science text that would incorporate an explanation for creation that could be taught to the children of all those groups without stepping on someone's toes.

Jewish. Protestant. Catholic. Orthodox Christian. Hindu.
Buddhist. Muslim. Atheist. Spiritual but no organized religion. Other.

774 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:50:45pm

re: #772 Salem

WTF Evolution is the main argument against a creator currently.

I can't fight from 20 fronts any better than you when I put one out fight that one.

775 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:50:56pm

re: #771 Cartman

Carry on.


Done.

776 mich-again  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:51:23pm

re: #770 Bill K.

#753 mich-again

Yes, but understand Evolution does not need a god in any way.

Thats not correct. Evolution does not explain how life started only how it changed. Don't confuse creation with evolution.

777 4wheel  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:51:36pm

re: #772 Salem

I believe there has been evolution, and that the Creator meant for it to be,

778 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:52:45pm

Mr. Roy Orbsum:

779 ggt  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:52:59pm

Good Night all

weet dreams!

780 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:53:36pm

re: #779 ggt

Weet dreams, ggt!

781 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:54:59pm
782 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:56:23pm

re: #768 Honorary Yooper

Why would we have people who oppose relativism everywhere else, but when it comes down to a concept they hold near and dear, relativism is OK?

I agree with you completely, but apparently at this time, not everyone is one the same page as far as this aspect of the argument. I think we're dealing with a learning curve much like we were when the crypto-fascism broke out.

re: #773 jaunte

I'm trying to imagine the composition of a science text that would incorporate an explanation for creation that could be taught to the children of all those groups without stepping on someone's toes.

Jewish. Protestant. Catholic. Orthodox Christian. Hindu.
Buddhist. Muslim. Atheist. Spiritual but no organized religion. Other.

I think that's the aspect some people aren't grasping here. Say we get ID into the science classroom....now- who's version of Creation do we tell? It's a slippery slope, and frankly- doesn't belong in public schools anyways.

783 Salem  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:56:33pm

re: #777 4wheel

I believe there has been evolution, and that the Creator meant for it to be,

Then you can throw out Genesis. I don't see the rest of the Bible as particularly compelling, either, but that's a personal choice, I suppose. Every Christian worships their own personal God and favors some parts of the scriptures over others, the way I see it.

784 29Victor  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:57:25pm

"it’s turtles all the way" is a reference to this.

Hawking used it in "A Brief History of Time."

At the beginning of the book Hawking told the story of a woman who once told him that the world was being carried on the back of a turtle. He asked what the turtle was on and she said "it's turtles all the way down."

He used that as an argument against "first cause" and explaining things by faith. Which I thought was just silly because Christians usually believe that God exists outside of the laws of nature. It's only the materialist that is restrained by the "first cause" argument.

Anyway... after several hundred pages of Mr. Hawking doing a great job explaining the laws of the universe to us, he finally, at the end of the book, gets to explaining how the universe began. When he gets to the part where he has to explain how everything started without something to start it, or how matter just magically appeared and energy just appeared out of nothing he simply says that all of these laws that he had been teaching us cease to apply at the beginning of time. He didn't need to trifle with a "first cause" because...well...because he didn't want to have to think about it.

"Hmmmm" I thought to myself. "How ironic. He's building his universe on turtles just as much as the woman in his story was."

785 mich-again  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:57:43pm

What about microbes like viruses. They are neither alive nor dead. No, not computer viruses, the real ones. How do they fit into the argument?

786 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:58:02pm

re: #781 x-ray

Johnny Cash

When the Man comes around.

The first tune on the same album.

I was playing it this morning.

787 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 10:58:26pm

re: #735 Sharmuta

You rock!

/Can I be on your team?

Sure thing! We have a tandem event coming up, and...

/...and that's about as far as I got with that lousy joke.

788 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:00:16pm

re: #761 Cartman

Some of you folks insist on lumping people into strictly defined categories with regards to this issue. It's getting more than tiresome.

Yes, because I'm not sure which of these categories I'd come into.
re: #779 ggt

Good Night all

weet dreams!

Wet Dreams indeed

For those fish lovers among us.

789 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:00:53pm

re: #774 x-ray

WTF Evolution is the main argument against a creator currently.

That's not true. That's what the proponents of ID, like Phillip Johnson, want you to think:

The objective (of the wedge strategy) is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God.

Don't buy into the discovery institute's talking points.

790 Salem  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:01:21pm

re: #785 mich-again

What about microbes like viruses. They are neither alive nor dead. No, not computer viruses, the real ones. How do they fit into the argument?

Well, I think we can both agree they don't have souls.

791 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:01:23pm

re: #785 mich-again

That's complicated: Creationist Claims about ERVs (Endogenous retroviruses)
/G'nite, y'all

792 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:02:33pm

Same story - two versions:


OLD VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.

The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!

-------------------------------------------

MODERN VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving.

CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing, 'It's Not Easy Being Green.'

Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing, 'We shall overcome.' Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake.

Nancy Pelosi & John Kerry exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.

Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.

Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that Bill Clinton appointed from a list of single-parent welfare recipients.

The ant loses the case.
The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it.

The ant has disappeared in the snow.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be careful how you vote in 2008!

793 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:03:03pm

re: #785 mich-again

What about microbes like viruses. They are neither alive nor dead. No, not computer viruses, the real ones. How do they fit into the argument?

Same way Oxygen and Hydrocarbons fit in an argument. Or bricks and a building. You believe as the rest of us in buildings and combustion I assume. If its a question of life the bible says we can eat so not sure what your point is.

794 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:03:51pm

re: #786 Syrah

Thanks.

795 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:06:42pm

Goodnight everyone. Dream big.

796 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:07:40pm

re: #789 Sharmuta

The wedge works against the uninformed. Do you consider me uniformed? Argue with me at the level my posts require not below please.

797 mich-again  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:11:18pm

re: #793 x-ray

Not quite that simple. They have genetic material and they can reproduce.

798 Kepler Sings  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:11:42pm

To my mind here is some prose that I find intellectually challenging in comparison to the paean to the naturalist's conscience that heads this thread:

Note this is from the 50's and is the same argument going on here virtually without difference except we have found life to be even more complex by orders of magnitude than was known when Custance wrote his Doorway Papers.

From the late Aurthur Custance:

I have left out the footnotes which are abundant, and would satiate even Kilgore Trout, though I suspect not to his liking
Custance

pg.9 of 17

In a nutshell, the present controversy among the authorities is not whether evolution has taken place, but rather whether the observed progression of forms has resulted by accident or by design. If the latter is true, a factor is introduced which is no longer capable of complete explanation in terms of physics and chemistry, and it is for this reason that evolutionists have fought against it. They insist that progress results from natural and not supernatural selection. This feeling goes right back to the beginning of the controversy.
Thus, for example, Wallace, who shared with Darwin the credit for launching the theory in a more or less polished form, finally became disillusioned as to the ability of the principle of Natural Selection to provide an adequate explanation. He concluded that "superior intelligence" must also be involved. After Wallace's death, Osborn wrote of "transformations which become more and more mysterious the more we study them." Although he did not join with Wallace by an appeal to a directing supernatural principle, (105) he came in the course of his long life to explain evolution as the result of an organizing and directing principle (which he refused to call supernatural) for which he found no naturalistic basis or explanation.

The well-known South African paleontologist, Robert Broom, held that there was "some spiritual power which has planned and directed evolution, and that below this there are other spiritual agencies, some good and some evil, which in turn direct 'partly intelligent' inferior spiritual agencies associated with various animals and plants.'' (106)

Broom, with Sir Charles Bell, suggested that a study of one's own fingers and hand with its intricacy of bone, muscle, tendon, blood vessels, and nerves, and the delicacy and complexity of its conscious control, will convince anyone of the improbability that such a structure arose by sheer accident or by a continued series of accidents short of infinity. He then pointed out that whatever improbability one assigns to the random origin of a hand, this must be multiplied by a billion billion to express the improbability that Nature as a whole is the result of a sequence of accidental and random events.
(Cont)

799 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:12:00pm

re: #796 x-ray

Fair enough. I would argue that the current leader against a Creator is Metaphysical naturalism, and not evolution.

800 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:15:30pm

re: #757 Opilio

It's been many years since I've seen that episode, but if IIRC he was also told (at the gates of hell pretending to be heaven) that there was no fishing, hunting, and the like. His response was basically "I'll pass".

Been a while though, I think I'll watch it later.

801 Bill K.  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:15:57pm

#776 mich-again

Thats not correct. Evolution does not explain how life started only how it changed. Don't confuse creation with evolution.

There was no creation. Life started very simply from organic compounds. But you have a point. Evolution has at its starting point some form of living organism.

How about this as a poll question?:

Is Evolution true? Does it explain the diversity of life on earth?
____ Yes ____No

802 johnny 100 pesos  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:16:44pm

Once upon a time in lizardland
Some people I admire erred
They said I was a fool to question the tool
That created us from thin air

Charles took a break from chasing dhimmi's
To go after those who wonder
If the evidence is good enough
Or is science is making a blunder

He must have been saddened and shocked
To find blind faith in Darwin so weak
Zombie says I'm tearing conservatism apart
By being unimpressed by a beak

I do know something of Darwinism
It only passes the most modest of tests
The rest is theory and speculation
Which is why I am not impressed

A film says scientists are punished
When doubts they are expressing
But it's all in their heads, they can't be trusted
Say those who do the suppressing

The evidence is there, that's obvious
It's the implications that must be banned
When a scientist says "This points to design"
He says "I want to be canned"

And yes, Atheism is a religion
Like buddhism, it has no Holy Ghost
But in one way it's better than Islam
In body counts, it has the most

Wedges and turtles are sidelines
They do not matter at all
Does the evidence support evolution?
Or is there hope for us all?

I liked your poem but I want to make a point
And I hope you find it in this letter
Your strawman tactics won't work
And Creationist poetry is better

803 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:18:14pm

Just a little note.

I argued against G-d for the first 30 of my 45 years. I hold no animosity for those that disagree with me just please don't pick a sentence or word out of my posts to whack me with. It serves you no better than me. Believing in G-d doesn't get me a sales commission on those I convert. So I am only pointing out my beliefs. Not trying to convert you too them. But just as you are annoyed by the belittlement of your beliefs I am also annoyed and will respond.

804 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:19:10pm

re: #781 x-ray

re: #786 Syrah

Check. My. Avatar.

805 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:20:35pm

re: #797 mich-again

Not quite that simple. They have genetic material and they can reproduce.


And your point is what with that?

806 George guy  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:21:08pm

re: #801 Bill K.

That would be an inaccurate question. Most scientifically literate (biblical) creationists (if you will suspend the impulse to deride that phrase as oxymoronic) tend to hold that there were originally several thousand fully-developed species created, which probably branched out from the samples taken in the Ark circa 2500 BC.

807 Render  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:22:08pm

Uriah Heep - Gypsy/Easy Livin

AND HERE
WE ARE,
R

808 Kepler Sings  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:22:09pm

Custance (cont)

Yet Gaylord Simpson was still convinced that: (107) Adaptation is real, and it is achieved by a progressive and directed process. This process is natural, and it is wholly mechanistic in its operation. This natural process achieves the aspect of purpose without the intervention of a purposer, and it has produced a vast plan without the concurrent action of a planner.

This seems a fantastic faith, but it is adopted by some kind of compulsion %uFFFD the refusal to believe in any supernatural interference. The great geneticist, Weismann, argued in the same way. He wrote: (108)
We accept Natural Selection not because we are able to demonstrate the process in detail, not even because we can with more or less ease imagine it but simply because we must %uFFFD because it is the only possible explanation that we can conceive. . . .
It is inconceivable that there could yet be another capable of explaining the adaptation of organisms without assuming the help of a principle of design.

William Bateson likewise accepted Natural Selection only because he considered the concept of separate creation ''absurd.'' (109) And more recently we find examples of the same frantic refusal to face the possibility of God's creative activity. Patterson and Stone, in a book dealing with experiments with fruit flies, put the matter this way: (110)

The only alternative to evolution by selection among random mutations with the majority of mutations detrimental at the time and place of their occurrence, is directed mutations to fit the need of the organism, possible only under supernatural guidance, although this is seldom the name applied to such a concept.

One gathers from the context that this only alternative is completely unacceptable.

In summary, then, although, to the seeing eye, there is really plenty of evidence of a Planner behind the process, this evidence must officially be ignored or denied, because the only currently acceptable explanation is the scientific one and science cannot allow anything which is not defined purely in terms of physics and chemistry. So long as this remains true, the concept of Supernatural Selection must be flatly rejected.

But it is not rejected because the evidence is against it. The evidence of progress is undeniable. To believe that such progress could continue for millions of years by pure chance requires great faith. If natural forces are inadequate to account for the process, the only alternative is the existence of supernatural forces, and to reject these on a priori grounds is irrational. In short, the Christian is far more rational than the evolutionist, and because he is, his understanding of the process of biological progress may be nearer to the truth.


Hmmm...Custance was saying the same thing as Stein, only 45 years ago, and he saw the same institutional hostility to any counter theory to Darwin. He would know of what he speaks seeing he was a tenured Professor of Biology at the Univ of Toronto

809 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:24:01pm

re: #804 Slumbering Behemoth

Thats funny the dichotomy of Johnny Cash's life from the sensitive to the bad ass was what made him great and human.

810 Kepler Sings  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:26:56pm

Johnny 100 Pesos

Brilliant stuff my friend, but like Milton you will not get the credit...tis Shakespeare they gave the prize.

811 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:29:43pm
812 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:29:49pm

re: #792 DesertSage

The revised (MODERN) ant and grasshopper...credit the source.

813 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:30:56pm

re: #803 x-ray

Oh-kay. Just a little note back- I believe in God. I also believe in the Constitution and don't want fundamentalists of any strip messing with the education of this country's youngin's, as we will all need to depend on them to carry on in our wake.

I'm not a scientist, I'm not an atheist, but I am an American. I don't want theology taught in public schools. If people want their children taught theology, they should send their children to a religious school, or to a religious institution on the day of their Sabbath for instruction in that faith's beliefs. They have no right to impose this through the public school system. I have no desire to impose my beliefs on others, nor do I want others' imposed on me. It's why I oppose islam. This is America- we're free to believe as we wish as individuals. I cherish this right, and I respect your right to believe as you desire. Just don't push this on the kids. Our education system is poor off as it is. Let's not convolute it more.

814 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:31:20pm

re: #813 Sharmuta

Err- any stripe.

815 Dekar  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:32:06pm
816 johnny 100 pesos  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:32:25pm

re: #810 Kepler Sings

Thank you, Kepler.

And I love your name, I just finished a bio on Kepler (Keplers Witch).

817 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:32:39pm

re: #812 Slumbering Behemoth

Interesting. I got mine at a completely different source.

818 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:34:57pm

re: #813 Sharmuta

Do you believe they are not currently being taught religion in our public schools today?

It is not he religion of G-d it's the religion of government. We have seen in recent history what that religion brings us.

819 Bill K.  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:35:05pm

#806 George guy

I don't see where the problem is. Those in the example you suggested would vote no because Evolution, to them, would not explain the diversity of life on earth.

820 Kepler Sings  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:35:09pm

johnny 100 pesos

How can I get that bio? Are you publishing?

821 johnny 100 pesos  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:38:46pm

re: #820 Kepler Sings

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

A terrific book, I got it when it was remaindered at Indigo (yes, the same one that Steyn recently made a splash at). Read it about a year ago, and quickly followed it with Galileo's Daughter.

822 Aylios  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:39:33pm

Awesome poem!

Charles' lizardarium accelerates the evolution of the lizard species.

823 LeePro  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:39:46pm

re: #810 Kepler Sings

Johnny 100 Pesos

Brilliant stuff my friend, but like Milton you will not get the credit...tis Shakespeare they gave the prize.

Learn how to click on the word "reply" when replying to another comment. Charles has provided us with these neat little COURTESY buttons so that we don't have to scroll all over the place to see what you're referring to.

It's kinda like a... you know... a "DUH" thing!

824 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:39:54pm

re: #809 x-ray

Thats funny the dichotomy of Johnny Cash's life from the sensitive to the bad ass was what made him great and human.

I'll be the first to admit my ignorance one any given subject, esp. on the career of Mr. Cash. The photo in my avi was from his 1970 performance at San Quentin.

Anyhow, I've always have seen him as a bad-ass. At what point in his career was the sensitive type?

825 swamprat  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:39:58pm

Atheists have adopted evolution as a litmus test. If an atheist rejected evolution, would he be considered a heretic? Evolution is comforting because it makes sense. If and when it is proven, the church will completely dissolve, just like it did when the earth was revealed as orbiting the sun . Modern man, at one time, knew that human beings could not travel over 30 miles an hour, or "the blood would boil in their veins". The French Academy of Science once declared that meteorites, did not exist. Science! Evolution, whether proved, or disproved, will not change the minds of believers, or nonbelievers. Shockingly, there were atheists before the theory of evolution, and even back then, they were smug and arrogant. Likewise many believers tend to view science as some sort of threat to their fragile belief system. If god were reduced to an absolute mathematical certainty, I am doubtful the unbelievers would convert, likewise to the inverse. Often, we believe as we wish, and then make up reasons to convince ourselves that we have reasoned. To those honestly researching the matter, good luck on your journey.

(italics indicative of sarcasm)

826 johnny 100 pesos  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:40:09pm

re: #822 Aylios

See 802

827 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:41:15pm

re: #813 Sharmuta

I think we have a problem in our schools when a teacher can give condoms o 13 year olds, but if they mention God they can get fired.

It's not the Christians I'm afraid of in the school system, it's the secularists.

828 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:41:22pm

re: #813 Sharmuta

My first reply was a little to quick. I have not been arguing at any point tonight that ID should be taught in our schools. There are way bigger problems in our schools currently and the people afraid of ID should be just as mad me. Global warming, multiculturalism etc.

829 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:42:18pm

re: #818 x-ray

Sorry- I thought I made myself clear enough in that post, as well as others on this thread, that our education system is not doing right by our kids.

Is your solution to our educational gaps to make matters worse by turning the science classroom into theology lessons? Is the solution to marxist indoctrination to turn to Christian fundamentalism? Sorry, but I don't think it is.

830 johnny 100 pesos  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:43:30pm

re: #825 swamprat

Actually, some atheists do reject evolution.

For instance, a couple of years ago I read of a Chinese scientist making some sort of presentation in America that criticized Darwinism. He made a huge stink, and responding by saying something like, In China you can criticize Darwin but not the government. In America you can criticize the government , but never Darwin.

831 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:44:01pm

re: #813 Sharmuta

I am inclined to think that the DI has introduced a stumbling block more then anything else.

Geneses does not need the DI to validate it.

832 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:44:18pm

re: #817 DesertSage

Interesting indeed. The link I provided was the first and only place I've seen that (first spotted >5 years ago). Where did you see yours?

I would not be surprised if it isn't original to the source I linked, I'm just curious.

833 LeePro  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:44:53pm

re: #819 Bill K.

#806 George guy

I don't see where the problem is. Those in the example you suggested would vote no because Evolution, to them, would not explain the diversity of life on earth.

Learn how to click on the word "reply" when replying to another comment. Charles has provided us with these neat little COURTESY buttons so that we don't have to scroll all over the place to see what you're referring to.

It's kinda like a... you know... a "DUH" thing!

834 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:45:01pm

re: #824 Slumbering Behemoth

I'll be the first to admit my ignorance one any given subject, esp. on the career of Mr. Cash. The photo in my avi was from his 1970 performance at San Quentin.

Anyhow, I've always have seen him as a bad-ass. At what point in his career was the sensitive type?

I walk the line.

835 johnny 100 pesos  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:46:15pm

re: #829 Sharmuta

It should be noted that the Discovery Institute is against teaching ID in schools.

They want to teach evolution, and more of it.

Of course to them, more if it means including the evidence and arguments against it, rather than just the evidence and arguments for it taught dogmatically.

836 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:46:36pm

re: #828 x-ray

My first reply was a little to quick. I have not been arguing at any point tonight that ID should be taught in our schools. There are way bigger problems in our schools currently and the people afraid of ID should be just as mad me. Global warming, multiculturalism etc.

OK- well, disregard my 829. We are ships passing in the night.

837 mikalm  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:46:50pm

re: #830 johnny 100 pesos

Wasn't the officially atheist Soviet Union enamored of Lamarckianism for awhile? That's worse than anti-Darwinism -- that's a heresy!

838 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:48:06pm

re: #835 johnny 100 pesos

Bullshit.

Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of intelligent design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools."

839 Kepler Sings  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:48:25pm

Sharmuta

I don't want theology taught in public schools. If people want their children taught theology, they should send their children to a religious school, or to a religious institution on the day of their Sabbath for instruction in that faith's beliefs. They have no right to impose this through the public school system.

Are you unaware of American history before 1900 or so? We became the envy of nations because our educational system was based on the Bible. The primary textbook was the McGuffey Reader. A morally based curricula. All our Ivy League colleges started as Seminaries, until hijacked by secularists.

The idea of some pristine separation is an invention of atheists and secularists that detest any teachings of an absolute and non-relativistic moral code. Our educational system is in such poor shape exactly because we banned God from the classroom. Seems America rose to be the preeminent nation in the earth from those foundations, and is now in trouble because those that live on those foundations seem to hate them, like someone slapping their mother for giving them life.

840 johnny 100 pesos  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:48:45pm

re: #837 mikalm

I'm sure a lot of BS was taught in the Soviet Union.

841 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:50:01pm

re: #789 Sharmuta

The objective (of the wedge strategy) is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God.

Seems to be working.

842 Kepler Sings  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:51:55pm

re: #823 LeePro

Thanks, my eyes don't see such small things anymore and I am not here often enough to learn all the tools.

843 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:52:07pm

re: #827 DesertSage

I feel that the creeping relativisms that acome from both the YECers and the liberals are the problem in our schools. We need neither discredited YEC nor the teaching of proper condom use nor the introduction of sharia in the schools.

None of these relativisms do them or their education justice.

844 swamprat  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:52:44pm

re: #834 and 824 x-ray
I'll be the first to admit my ignorance one any given subject, esp. on the career of Mr. Cash. The photo in my avi was from his 1970 performance at San Quentin.

Anyhow, I've always have seen him as a bad-ass. At what point in his career was the sensitive type?


here also

845 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:53:03pm

re: #829 Sharmuta

Is your solution to our educational gaps to make matters worse by turning the science classroom into theology lessons? Is the solution to marxist indoctrination to turn to Christian fundamentalism?

It shouldn't be an either/or, Sharm. Neither one in abundance would be a good thing. The public school system should stick to the basics - reading, writing and arithmetic.

The problem is, the school systems in this country were taken over back in the sixties by a bunch of neo-Marxist secularists, and the balance has been overwhelmingly on their side ever since. It's way out of whack today, and it's getting worse. The public schools were never as bad--back in the 50's--when they did have God in the schools...as they are now.
I'm not advocating a theist curriculum, all I'm saying is that it was better then than it is now.

846 johnny 100 pesos  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:53:37pm

re: #838 Sharmuta

I call you on that. One mans' memo does not a policy make. From the website:

Don’t Require The Teaching of Intelligent Design
All of the major pro-intelligent design organizations oppose any efforts to require the teaching of intelligent design by school districts or state boards of education. The mainstream ID movement agrees that attempts to mandate teaching about intelligent design only politicize the theory and will hinder fair and open discussion of the merits of the theory among scientists and within the scientific community.
Teach More About Evolution
Instead of mandating intelligent design, the major pro-ID organizations seek to increase the coverage of evolution in textbooks by teaching students about both scientific strengths and weaknesses of evolution. Most school districts today teach only a one-sided version of evolution which presents only the facts which supposedly support the theory. But most pro-ID organizations think evolution should be taught as a scientific theory that is open to critical scrutiny, not as a sacred dogma that can't be questioned.
Protect Academic Freedom
Although pro-ID organizations do not advocate requiring the teaching of intelligent design in public schools, they also believe there is nothing unconstitutional about voluntarily discussing the scientific theory of design in the classroom. Pro-ID organizations oppose efforts to persecute individual teachers who may wish to discuss the scientific debate over design in an objective and pedagogically appropriate manner.

847 x-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:54:12pm

re: #836 Sharmuta
In the colosseum of LGF we need to assume what is meant by the words others write. I have way too often jumped on a phrase and argued against what a poster was actually saying. If you don't make some assumptions these threads would move like molasses:)

Long way of saying "No Problem"

848 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:57:06pm

re: #832 Slumbering Behemoth

Ahh, hell...now I can't find it.
It was posted on my other favorite site (LGF is my first favorite) Thumper talk. They have good forums in there also.

849 Salem  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:58:28pm

re: #845 DesertSage

I'm not advocating a theist curriculum, all I'm saying is that it was better then than it is now.

Without an alternate proposal, there wouldn't seem to be much distinction between the two.

850 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:58:46pm

re: #839 Kepler Sings

Our educational system is in such poor shape exactly because we banned God from the classroom.

Interesting how it coincides with marxist infiltration.... marxists, who are opposed to materialism, which is exactly what the creationists call scientists- materialists. It's a very interesting choice of terms they've chosen.

Plenty of people here at LGF can attest to the fact I've railed against the current state of our public education system, but if you think I'm going to blame science for it- you've got another thing coming.

851 LeePro  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:58:59pm

re: #842 Kepler Sings

Thanks, my eyes don't see such small things anymore and I am not here often enough to learn all the tools.

You're welcome!
;)

852 Droplet  Sat, May 10, 2008 11:59:57pm

These discussions are way over my head. And boring...
Anyone else enjoy the English series "Shameless" on the Sundance Channel? It's on right now. Check it out. Set in an English housing project (they call them "estates" over there). A comedy-drama focused on the lower classes.

853 Syrah  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:00:47am

Ending the night on a musical/humorous note,

The Truth About Devolution.

Goodnight all.

Remember, Lizards should have thick skins.

We will need them.

854 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:00:56am

re: #831 Syrah

LOL! No- I don't think God needs their help.

855 zombie  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:02:48am

i haven't read any comments on this thread, and I'm dropping in way late, but, having just read the poem, I simply had to say this:

Winslow, you are a genius.

The quality and variety of talent here on LGF is truly astounding.

856 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:03:01am

re: #833 LeePro

I find you to be affectionately harsh in your ministrations on this subject, and sometimes feel a phantom *thwack* while reading your posts regrading it. But the lesson is not lost.
////

P.S. I do not have a finger fetish, I have a bird obsession.

857 johnny 100 pesos  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:04:31am

I was wrong about something...I was under the impression that the wedge document was just something that was circulated within Discovery, but while I was looking it up I realized that it was also used in fund raising efforts.

However, while looking it up, and reading it in context, it is hardly as damning as some make it out to be. I also just read Discovery's response to the document, called THE "WEDGE DOCUMENT": SO WHAT?.

Worth checking out.

858 x-ray  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:04:44am

re: #844 swamprat
A paraphase from your link

In a time of change there come distorted images and uncertain values and we all must search for what is true.

How true the more that changes the more that stays the same.

859 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:05:12am

re: #845 DesertSage

The public school system should stick to the basics - reading, writing and arithmetic.

I agree! But- I've also read the wedge document. Have you gotten to it yet?

860 johnny 100 pesos  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:05:33am

re: #855 zombie

You should check out my response, number 802...

861 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:05:48am

re: #855 zombie

The quality and variety of talent here on LGF is truly astounding.

We're just average, everyday people here zombie.

You're the one who's astounding.

862 johnny 100 pesos  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:07:37am

Good night all!

863 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:07:55am

re: #834 x-ray

Interesting. I've always interpreted that song as "I know you're bad news for me, and I'm gonna keep wary of your influence". Esp. re: "I keep a close watch on this heart of mine, I keep my eyes wide open all the time"

I suppose that is sensitive in some way.

864 LeePro  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:08:24am

re: #845 DesertSage

It shouldn't be an either/or, Sharm. Neither one in abundance would be a good thing. The public school system should stick to the basics - reading, writing and arithmetic.

The problem is, the school systems in this country were taken over back in the sixties by a bunch of neo-Marxist secularists, and the balance has been overwhelmingly on their side ever since. It's way out of whack today, and it's getting worse. The public schools were never as bad--back in the 50's--when they did have God in the schools...as they are now.
I'm not advocating a theist curriculum, all I'm saying is that it was better then than it is now.

AMEN!

Tonight I watched (again!) the two-hour special on the History Channel about the Apollo space program "Failure is Not an Option." When the Apollo 9 crew completed their first orbit around the moon, they were awestruck by the view of "earth-rise" on the lunar horizon! Immediately one of them began to recite from Genesis. And it was good. The entire control room in Houston was brought to tears.

To this day, I have yet to hear of anyone who has been irreparably harmed by such as this.

865 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:08:55am

re: #846 johnny 100 pesos

Again- bullshit.

We will also pursue possible legal assistance in response to resistance to the integration of design theory into public school science curricula.

That is straight out of the wedge document, so you saying they don't want to teach ID is complete and utter bullshit.

866 Salem  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:09:09am

Public school shouldn't be the end of a person's education, anyway. And never before has the potential for everyone to learn to their greatest potential been higher.

867 Kepler Sings  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:10:01am

re: #850 Sharmuta

Plenty of people here at LGF can attest to the fact I've railed against the current state of our public education system, but if you think I'm going to blame science for it- you've got another thing coming.

You are stuck in your own argument in response to me. I was not making any observation about science, or the lack thereof. You attest you are a Christian, yet you detest Christian teachings in our schools. Teaching that we somehow endured for a couple of hundred years and manged not to become a theocratic tyranny. I just found it a little startling that you professed a Christianity while seeming to throw rocks at the same.

What is worse the politically correct, mind-numbing drivel in most of our public schools? Or Biblically based stories of deliverance, freedom and the equality of all before God, not to mention you can do worse than the prose of Isaiah, the logic of Paul, and the compassion of Christ. I always wonder at this unfounded fear that America is two seconds away from a Dark Ages hell-hole of God is mentioned in public, while truth be told we are gaining momentum as a nation of lawless and narcissistic people, without the will to fight true tyranny spreading on the earth.

868 x-ray  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:11:20am

re: #863 Slumbering Behemoth

Maybe my definition of sensitive is a wee bit on the insensitive side too.

Any show of feelings is sensitive.

869 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:11:31am

re: #859 Sharmuta

I agree! But- I've also read the wedge document. Have you gotten to it yet?

If I show you a document written by a secularist or an atheist that said that they wanted to use evolution to promote atheism and/or communism in our public schools, could we call it even then?

I mean, what's the point? That wedge thingy is just one document, it doesn't speak for everyone or everything on the entire subject.

870 swamprat  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:11:38am

re: #863 Slumbering Behemoth.... He is saying that he won't cheat on her in spite of temptation.

871 Hengineer  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:11:39am

re: #72 Mr. E. Train

I dont understand why God and evolution have to be mutually exclusive. Why cant the latter be the tool used by the former?

It is said Abner Doubleday created the modern rules of baseball, but that doesnt mean the man pitches every pitch, hits every hit, runs every run. He set the rules by which the game is played, thus 'creating' the game.

The universe is unimaginably huge. I can think of less elegant methods of creating life on an infinite number of worlds at the same time. I dont see Darwinism as denying God, rather it is a glimpse at his greatness. Unraveling a strand of DNA doesnt make the creator go away, it drives home his transcendent genius.

This argument is silly and even a bit shameful.

I'm with you.

872 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:12:02am

re: #869 DesertSage

So, no- you haven't read it yet.

873 Hengineer  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:13:04am

re: #867 Kepler Sings

Plenty of people here at LGF can attest to the fact I've railed against the current state of our public education system, but if you think I'm going to blame science for it- you've got another thing coming.

You are stuck in your own argument in response to me. I was not making any observation about science, or the lack thereof. You attest you are a Christian, yet you detest Christian teachings in our schools. Teaching that we somehow endured for a couple of hundred years and manged not to become a theocratic tyranny. I just found it a little startling that you professed a Christianity while seeming to throw rocks at the same.

What is worse the politically correct, mind-numbing drivel in most of our public schools? Or Biblically based stories of deliverance, freedom and the equality of all before God, not to mention you can do worse than the prose of Isaiah, the logic of Paul, and the compassion of Christ. I always wonder at this unfounded fear that America is two seconds away from a Dark Ages hell-hole of God is mentioned in public, while truth be told we are gaining momentum as a nation of lawless and narcissistic people, without the will to fight true tyranny spreading on the earth.

Theocratic tyranny?

Witch hunts, Inquisition....etc...

Christian teachings in PUBLIC schools?

I grew up Catholic, and am currently a confirmed Catholic Christian.

Keep the religious teachings in your Sunday Schools.
Why not? I had 'em.

874 LeePro  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:13:26am

re: #856 Slumbering Behemoth

I find you to be affectionately harsh in your ministrations on this subject, and sometimes feel a phantom *thwack* while reading your posts regrading it. But the lesson is not lost.
////

P.S. I do not have a finger fetish, I have a bird obsession.

"affectionately harsh"
I like that...

"I have a bird obsession"
I like that even better!

hee hee

875 least  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:13:32am

O Most High Lizard King:
What is the net gain to all of these Creationist/ID/Evolutionist threads? I have not read in any of the comments that someone has changed their position about these matters.
I have, however, read waaaaaaaaaaaay too many comments that approach (and even go beyond) outright hostility from many commenters who are normally gentlepeople, kind and likable, who might disagree on some points but rarely have they ever reached the level of hostility and vitriol as exhibited on these threads.

"Stein is a fool/Stein is not a fool/No, you're a fool" "Evolution is PROVEN/Evolution is NOT proven" "There ain't no God/There is too, and He's gonna deal with you, soon"


And yet we say "how typical of them" when Kkkosites and HuffPoters exhibit such attitudes.

876 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:13:54am

re: #866 Salem

Public school shouldn't be the end of a person's education, anyway. And never before has the potential for everyone to learn to their greatest potential been higher.

Have you seen the dropout rate in this country?
I think only about 10% graduate from high school in the inner city.

877 Hengineer  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:14:53am

re: #876 DesertSage

Have you seen the dropout rate in this country?
I think only about 10% graduate from high school in the inner city.

That's a culture issue, not a school issue

/John McWhorter, Winning the Race

878 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:15:50am

re: #872 Sharmuta

So, no- you haven't read it yet.

I did read it Sharm. I don't agree with it. But that's just one institute...how much power do you think they have?

879 Lizardoid Minion #32603  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:16:22am

re: #169 jainphx

So true, I have my own convictions and nothing can change that, but some one please explain the eye, how did this intricate body part happen.

The eye? You're asking about one of the clearest examples of evolution that we have?

You're aware that the verterbrate eye is wired up backwards, with the nerves and blood vessels in front of the optical receptors? (Which is why we have a blind spot.) That the octopus eye is very similar to the vertebrate eye, but with the wiring in the only sensible place, behind the receptors?

You're aware that eyes come in a vast range of designs, from simple light-sensitive organelles to cup eyespots to pinhole cameras to compound eyes in insects and the complex eyes of vertebrates and cephalopods, leaving us not only with a clear evolutionary path but concrete examples of every step along that path?

You're aware that the evolution of the eye is an entire field of scientific study in itself, right? You did read up on vertebrate and invertebrate comparative morphology and biochemsitry of the eye, and the fossil record as well, before asking this, yes? Or at the very least plug "evolution of the eye" into Google and find that it comes up with nearly 3 million hits?

You did do all that first, right? Right?

880 Winslow  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:16:35am

re: #855 zombie

Thank you, O diabolic relic from the grave.

881 Salem  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:17:14am

re: #875 least

Wah.

882 Hengineer  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:18:26am

re: #873 Hengineer

Theocratic tyranny?

Witch hunts, Inquisition....etc...

Christian teachings in PUBLIC schools?

I grew up Catholic, and am currently a confirmed Catholic Christian.

Keep the religious teachings in your Sunday Schools.
Why not? I had 'em.

What's great about our science is we can finally understand the how. How things happened, how they went step by step from this point to this point, how things are going to happen.

Science's failure is that it cannot help us understand the why. Why did we evolve this way? Why are we here at all?
That's for your faith and spirituality to help you understand.

Most people are reasonable people who find room for both science AND their faith/religion in their lives. Its the eccentrics on both sides who want the world to be remade to their own liking.

883 DesertSage  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:18:27am

re: #877 Hengineer

That's a culture issue, not a school issue

/John McWhorter, Winning the Race

?

884 Sharmuta  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:20:22am

re: #867 Kepler Sings

You are putting words in my mouth. I haven't stated on this thread what my exact belief system is, merely that I believe in God. Nor did I say I "detest Christian teachings". I feel ID is a slippery slope. You let one religious group in the door to teach public school children, you'll have to let them all in.

For the record, my public high school had a religion class- I couldn't take it because it conflicted with a music class, so I can't speak to the curriculum. However, I wasn't taught anything but science in my science classes, and I think that's how it should stay.

885 swamprat  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:22:26am
886 pat  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:22:26am

I have an extraordinarily complex fictional battle scene to absorb. And yet, here is a taste in real life. ;)

887 LeePro  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:22:55am

re: #871 Hengineer

Me, too!
❤ for #72 Mr. E. Train

888 Salem  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:23:28am

re: #876 DesertSage

Have you seen the dropout rate in this country?
I think only about 10% graduate from high school in the inner city.

I don't see how giving equal time to ID will arrest the dropout rate. And the very poorest will have no more access to education. Do you actually attribute these problems to the teaching of Evolution in public schools in the first place? Surely not...

889 x-ray  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:23:39am

re: #875 least

For the farmers or gardeners among us know that a seed planted will not generate wealth in a day but in a season.

I think we argue here so ardently for 2 reasons.

1 that we will plant the seed that over time will win over those that don't believe as we do.
2 That we will strengthen our arguments through altruistic battle in this arena.

890 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:25:13am

I love how we've been deluged with the army of proselytes that creationism is just as valid as evolution, since evolution is just an unproven theory.

Which entirely ignores the fact that if the climate to which a species which cannot clothe itself is exposed to progressively colder temperatures, that if the environmental change is gradual enough the species will adaptively mutate or by natural selection or a combination of both create a species that is more adapted to the cold as it gets colder.

That is predictable as rain, it's scientific, and it's not a theory. There are endless variables and examples that can be predicted in the same way. That's science, not theory.

Anyone who says evolution is a theory therefore is by definition either ignorant, a dogmatist, or a moonbat.

Or any combination of the above.

Goodnight!

891 bosforus  Sun, May 11, 2008 12:27:33am

RIP Bob Msrley 27 years