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Once Upon the Internet

Sat, May 10, 2008 at 6:29:20 pm PDT

Did you know that lizards have evolved to write poetry? From LGF reader Winslow:

Who Knows?

’Twas once upon the internet I chanced upon an argument;
A blog appeared to splinter into internecine wars.
’Twas all precipitated by a movie dedicated to
Portraying Darwinism as a truth-suppressing force.

A thousand comments did I read, another thousand did I feed
Into my aching brain, yet little progress did I find.
No sooner was a claim defeated, than it was again repeated;
Surely there’s a better way to influence a mind.

Oh Lord, I grew so weary of the cry: “It’s just a theory!” for
This charge is not dismissive in the scientific world.
And though this point was oft explained, it did not hinder those who claimed
That “Theory!” is rhetorical invective to be hurled.

My neurons whirled, my senses swirled; how did man come into this world?
I longed to take a nap, but someone said: “I’ve found a gap!”
And though the gap was quickly filled, there promptly came a voice more thrilled:
“Behold!” it cried, “I now have spied a flanking pair of gaps!”

And then, with logic so perverse it hurts to render it in verse,
The charge was made that atheism is religious faith.
And even Orwell would be awed by language so profoundly flawed,
For logically, religious faith is therefore non-belief.

To try to cast theology as natural philosophy
Is clearly what Intelligent Designers have in mind.
Their documented strategy to wedge their way to victory
Speaks volumes on the nature of Intelligent Design.

Though Darwin’s Evolution is an elegant solution to
The origin of species, still I might hear someone say:
“There must be something greater, so there must be a Creator,” but
Creators need creators too; it’s turtles all the way.

And so it went, and so it goes, but how it all began, who knows?
I’ll check the blog tomorrow, just in case it’s been resolved.
And if, by then, we all agree on how the humans came to be,
We’ll try to answer how and why we lizardoids evolved.

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1173 comments

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1 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:30:25pm
2 WhiteRasta  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:31:17pm

Lovely.Very insightful.

3 pat  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:31:19pm

Oh Oh. :)

4 VegasRick  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:31:32pm

I once knew a girl from ole' Kentuck
She couldn't cook but she sure could..................................sing!

5 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:32:06pm

Ha ha, well done, Winslow

6 seekeroftruth  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:32:18pm

Awesome Winslow!

7 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:32:33pm

Fantastic. It cries out for a little Tom Lehrer-ish piano music...

8 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:32:56pm
9 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:32:59pm

Again- it's bloody brilliant.

10 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:33:06pm
11 ted  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:33:59pm

Holy Great Moses Stuff !

12 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:35:14pm
13 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:36:15pm

re: #12 jcm

THE WORD ON THE MATTER!

Now- don't be bringing matter into this- you'll upset the anti-materialists.

/

14 Pent.  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:36:42pm

Trying to bring in class into this discussion will probably not work.

15 CapeCoddah  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:36:59pm

Thats pretty cool. Nice job!

16 hayseed  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:37:19pm

re: #10 song_and_dance_man

sci fi channel native girls being chased by t rex

17 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:37:30pm

re: #14 Pent.

Trying to bring in class into this discussion will probably not work.

PHHFFFFBBBBBTTTTTT!
*sticks thumbs in ears and waggles fingers*

18 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:37:35pm

Just posted in the spinoffs: Cardinal Murphy O'Connor claim Hitler and Stalin were guided by Reason

The Disco Institute talking points are gaining traction.

19 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:37:46pm

Lance, what do you think? Ah, crap....

20 sattv4u2  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:37:52pm

Once Upon the Internet

Lemme get my jammies on and have a glass of warm milk ,,, someones going to tell me a bedtime story !

21 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:38:51pm

Did that thread die yet? I only took one knife in the back on a thread I stayed out of until around comment 1500 or so.

22 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:39:25pm

re: #20 sattv4u2

Once Upon the Internet

Lemme get my jammies on and have a glass of warm milk ,,, someones going to tell me a bedtime story !

In the beginning GORALCE said..... LET THERE BE NET!

23 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:39:37pm

Even better the second time around. Good on ya, Winslow.

24 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:39:43pm

It's just a theory!

25 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:40:01pm
26 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:40:12pm

re: #24 DesertSage

It's just a theory!

The internet?

27 Gagdad Bob  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:40:17pm

Leave it to a middlebrow atheist to drain poetry of its transcendent content, and therefore, the sufficient reason for its existence. A poem this bad may well prove Darwin right, as Koko could have written it.

28 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:40:57pm

re: #21 EC Marm

Did that thread die yet? I only took one knife in the back on a thread I stayed out of until around comment 1500 or so.

Some threads are not worth commenting on. We have all made up our minds on evolution and creationism. Don't like fighting people I respect.....

29 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:42:18pm

re: #28 LoFlyer

Don't like fighting people I respect.....


You should. You'd learn a lot.

30 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:42:26pm
31 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:42:44pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

You should see some of the crap that got left down on the last thread.

32 greenmiler  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:44:26pm

sounds like i missed all the fun

33 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:44:54pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

Creationists sure are long winded.

34 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:44:58pm
35 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:45:13pm

re: #16 hayseed

sci fi channel native girls being chased by t rex

Without looking, is it Carnosaur?

36 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:45:24pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

You should. You'd learn a lot.

They aren't going to change their minds, and I am not going to change mine. I will stay out of abortion and creationism vs evolution threads. Nothing changes and all it brings is hard feelings between fellow lizzards....

37 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:46:01pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

Creationists sure are long winded.

Someone found an unoccupied soapbox?

38 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:46:19pm

Koko post music link:

39 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:46:29pm

re: #36 LoFlyer

They aren't going to change their minds, and I am not going to change mine. I will stay out of abortion and creationism vs evolution threads. Nothing changes and all it brings is hard feelings between fellow lizzards....

I'm with you.

40 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:47:16pm

Of course this poem describing the frustration of watching lots of people debating such a controversial and mind numbing argument and the chaos...will eventually provoke that very chaos.

Chicken or the egg?

Where does re-incarnation fit into evolution?

41 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:47:20pm

re: #37 Spiny Norman

Ha!

42 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:47:27pm

re: #39 goddessoftheclassroom

You do learn a lot of ways to be snide and condescending, though.

43 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:47:40pm
44 Dr. Shalit  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:47:44pm

Charles,

If you haven't noticed it - WINSLOW - is OUR Frost if not our Shakespeare.Comments please.

-S-

45 Macker  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:47:59pm

re: #36 LoFlyer

Besides, we got a War to fight!

46 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:48:01pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

OK. In honor of the recently banned, I'll take one for the team. Please be gentle.

Here goes: How is atheism not a religious belief?

47 Pent.  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:49:28pm
re: #39 goddessoftheclassroom

You do learn a lot of ways to be snide and condescending, though.


Yay?

48 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:49:42pm

re: #34 ploome hineni
Did you see where ditz is now claiming to be married and using her "husbands" lgf account by accident? If so, my sincere sympathizes to the Mr.

49 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:49:49pm

re: #42 OldLineTexan

Oh, and how to construct strawmen. Can't leave that out. Putting words in your opponent's mouths is always a constructive skill.

50 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:49:59pm

re: #46 Pater Coop

Here goes: How is atheism not a religious belief?

It is....they'll just never admit it.

51 Dr. Shalit  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:50:22pm

re: #46 Pater Coop

OK. In honor of the recently banned, I'll take one for the team. Please be gentle.

Here goes: How is atheism not a religious belief?

"P-C" -

NO WAY! That is all.

-S-

52 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:50:48pm

More interesting than either side of this argument are those that try to tie them together into one. Evolution as a tool of the creator. Lots of deep thoughts on that.

53 hayseed  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:50:52pm

re: #35 Spiny Norman

aztec rex

54 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:51:15pm

Does "Winslow" post as "Winslow Leach" at other blogs?

Or just here and I'm imagining things staying up too late blog surfing and forgetting what I've seen where?

55 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:51:19pm

re: #36 LoFlyer

They aren't going to change their minds, and I am not going to change mine.


That's not the point. Never enter a sincere debate with the goal of changing your opponents mind. Explain why you believe what you believe and see if your opinion can stand the scrutiny. The people you respect are probably the most able to beat you in a debate. Sure, some people get pissed off and hold grudges but those people don't last here anyways. It's not a problem.

56 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:51:39pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

Creationists sure are long winded.

What's worse- some seem to think they have a monopoly on ethics and morals. I find that insulting.

57 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:52:05pm

Who's on first?

58 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:53:01pm

re: #57 David IV of Georgia

Who's on first?

Yes.

59 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:53:18pm

re: #53 hayseed

aztec rex

Ah!

Gotta keep my made-for-cable T & A prehistoric monster romps straight...

60 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:53:44pm

If creationism isn't true, then how do you explain animals being made out of meat?

61 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:55:05pm

re: #42 OldLineTexan

You do learn a lot of ways to be snide and condescending, though.

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and I don't want my feelings hurt.

I learned when I was very young that I had verbal quickness (or whatever you want to call it) beyond that of most of my friends. I could out-argue and out-insult them if I wanted to. I knew that I was "blessed" with a formidable tool that could be a weapon.

And I chose never to use it to hurt.

It is very difficult at times to bite back a comment that comes to mind, especially when someone has intentionally hurt me (such as my former inlaws), but I do.

62 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:55:12pm
63 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:55:44pm

How did the first unliving substance obtain "life"?

64 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:55:59pm

re: #56 Sharmuta

What's worse- some seem to think they have a monopoly on ethics and morals. I find that insulting.

Is acting like an immature little brat by proclaiming that you're going to sneak into a movie theater to avoid paying for a product that you purchased considered "ethical" and "moral"?

Just asking.

65 TrollBot PrtoType Six  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:56:04pm

re: #46 Pater Coop

OK. In honor of the recently banned, I'll take one for the team. Please be gentle.

Here goes: How is atheism not a religious belief?

As an apathetic agnostic I couldn't care less what anyone wants to call it.

66 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:56:07pm

re: #46 Pater Coop

How is atheism not a religious belief?

There are many different flavors of atheism.

Atheism, as an explicit position, either affirms the nonexistence of gods[1] or rejects theism.[2] When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities,[3] alternatively called nontheism.[4] Although atheism is often equated with irreligion, some religious philosophies, such as secular theology and some varieties of Buddhism such as Theravada, either do not include belief in a personal god as a tenet of the religion, or actively teach nontheism.

Essentially it's non-belief. The burden of proof (or faith) is on the believer, not the non-believer. You might be considered an atheist in some cultures for you lack of faith in their gods even though you have your own.

67 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:56:08pm
68 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:56:26pm

re: #59 Spiny Norman

Ah!

Gotta keep my made-for-cable T & A prehistoric monster romps straight...

The brightly-dyed chicken feather "native art" featured on that show is just rockin'.

Looks like a band of Cub Scouts formed a successful "Lord of the Flies" society with regular arts n' crafts nights.

69 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:56:29pm

re: #56 Sharmuta

I find that insulting.


I'm used to it.

70 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:56:54pm

In evolution, how did self awareness first occur?

71 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:57:00pm
72 Mr. E. Train  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:57:48pm

I dont understand why God and evolution have to be mutually exclusive. Why cant the latter be the tool used by the former?

It is said Abner Doubleday created the modern rules of baseball, but that doesnt mean the man pitches every pitch, hits every hit, runs every run. He set the rules by which the game is played, thus 'creating' the game.

The universe is unimaginably huge. I can think of less elegant methods of creating life on an infinite number of worlds at the same time. I dont see Darwinism as denying God, rather it is a glimpse at his greatness. Unraveling a strand of DNA doesnt make the creator go away, it drives home his transcendent genius.

This argument is silly and even a bit shameful.

73 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:57:57pm
74 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:58:55pm
75 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:59:35pm

Lightning is how self awareness occured or how dead matter obtained life?

76 Dr. Shalit  Sat, May 10, 2008 6:59:43pm

re: #56 Sharmuta

What's worse- some seem to think they have a monopoly on ethics and morals. I find that insulting.

"Sharm" -

Let us take the "Organized Stuff" out of the equation. I have little of it. You may have LESS, you may have MORE, I have NO CLUE. Go to a BEACH, anywhere, look at the sand, the water and please tell me that "Ha-Shem", "The Great Spirit", etc., et. al. does not exist. Einstein couldn't.

-S-

77 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:00:25pm

Oh, and how did lightning do this?

78 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:00:25pm
79 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:00:38pm

re: #61 goddessoftheclassroom

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, and I don't want my feelings hurt.

I learned when I was very young that I had verbal quickness (or whatever you want to call it) beyond that of most of my friends. I could out-argue and out-insult them if I wanted to. I knew that I was "blessed" with a formidable tool that could be a weapon.

And I chose never to use it to hurt.

It is very difficult at times to bite back a comment that comes to mind, especially when someone has intentionally hurt me (such as my former inlaws), but I do.

You know, I was a sarcastic teenager as well. I didn't have your self-control, but I grew out of it. I am mostly just a mild smartass these days. However, I have a trained eye for snide and condescending, and I have seen plenty of both around here of late. And the aftermath of gloating is none the prettier.

80 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:01:02pm
81 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:01:24pm

re: #62 ploome hineni
Oh yeah, she can keep a grudge going for months. I doubt that there is one prolific poster here she has not taken on since November. I think she should worry about the "freshman fifteen" she took on the past two semesters and go the f away.
Not that you and I agree on everything all the time. But we're at least civil about it?

82 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:01:55pm

re: #74 ploome hineni

because you are a normal reasonable individual with no religious agenda

/whatsamatta wid you?

Or anti-religious, apparently. Good on ya.

/Crusades cut both ways

83 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:02:02pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

That's not the point. Never enter a sincere debate with the goal of changing your opponents mind. Explain why you believe what you believe and see if your opinion can stand the scrutiny. The people you respect are probably the most able to beat you in a debate. Sure, some people get pissed off and hold grudges but those people don't last here anyways. It's not a problem.

Both the abortion and evolution debates are based on emotion rather than logic and thought. No one really cares about the others views because we are emotionally locked into our own viewpoint. I prefer to pick my fights on subjects that I believe are important. I don't get chicks pregnant and my views on evolution and creationism are a mixed jumble of straight Darwin evolution and the glory of watching a sunset and knowing their is a larger hand at work than nature.

84 Dr. Shalit  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:02:07pm

re: #72 Mr. E. Train

"E-T" -

I think all 'y'all GOT THE PROGRAM!. That is all.

-S-

85 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:02:17pm

I understand the price of revealing the secrets of the universe. You don't have to explain.

86 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:02:18pm

re: #64 DesertSage

Is acting like an immature little brat by proclaiming that you're going to sneak into a movie theater to avoid paying for a product that you purchased considered "ethical" and "moral"?

Just asking.

Are you trying to trick me? Is that ethical and moral?

87 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:02:36pm
88 Catttt  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:03:30pm

OT - I think I fixed my power supply fan! :)

I used Dust Off with the little straw, through the grill. The first 10 shots or so, the fan didn't turn, and then it did. And I found a piece of some kind of masking tape, folded, lying inside the computer tower. The fan's turning now and not making that awful whining noise. :D

89 Jay777  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:03:48pm

or un-alive, maybe?

90 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:03:59pm

re: #86 Sharmuta

Are you trying to trick me? Is that ethical and moral?

Nope, no trick. I just respect your opinion so I thought I'd ask.

91 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:04:00pm

re: #87 ploome hineni

matter that had never been alive cannot be considered dead

it can be considered inanimate though

What about the SNDT? How do you explain THAT!

Dead, alive, inanimate?

HA!

92 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:04:03pm

re: #79 OldLineTexan

You know, I was a sarcastic teenager as well. I didn't have your self-control, but I grew out of it. I am mostly just a mild smartass these days. However, I have a trained eye for snide and condescending, and I have seen plenty of both around here of late. And the aftermath of gloating is none the prettier.

I adore "smarta$$es"--they're clever and funny--but like you, I abhor the snide and condescending.

93 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:04:04pm
94 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:04:06pm

re: #76 Dr. Shalit

Please don't assume anything about my belief system. Nor does your comment address my point. I know plenty of non-Christians who have positive ethics and morals.

95 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:04:44pm
96 VegasRick  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:05:00pm

I am going back to tell the muslimes to fuck off some more. See ya'all later.

97 WindHorse  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:05:10pm

what happened to Lance?

98 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:05:34pm

The thing that gets me is that the threads posted over the last week or so are not at all about "creation v. evolution" in their intent, but are about debunking the suppositions of a certain film, pointing out the fallacy of claiming supernatural philosophies should somehow be considered as "science", and drawing attention to an organization that has been exposed as having a political agenda in promoting such fallacies.

Yet there still are those who insist on making each and everyone of those threads about nothing but "creation v. evolution".

99 greenmiler  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:05:48pm

re: #88 Catttt

OT - I think I fixed my power supply fan! :)

I used Dust Off with the little straw, through the grill. The first 10 shots or so, the fan didn't turn, and then it did. And I found a piece of some kind of masking tape, folded, lying inside the computer tower. The fan's turning now and not making that awful whining noise. :D


We used to put playing cards in our spokes

100 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:05:55pm

re: #88 Catttt

OT - I think I fixed my power supply fan! :)

I used Dust Off with the little straw, through the grill. The first 10 shots or so, the fan didn't turn, and then it did. And I found a piece of some kind of masking tape, folded, lying inside the computer tower. The fan's turning now and not making that awful whining noise. :D

You're lucky that's all that was in your fan.

101 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:05:59pm
102 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:06:01pm

re: #92 goddessoftheclassroom

I adore "smarta$$es"--they're clever and funny--but like you, I abhor the snide and condescending.

That was what they called me in my early twenties. I grew out of it, now I am considered "opinionated". I take it as a compliment....

103 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:06:01pm

I haven't been around for a few days, did Lance get banned? Or just a time out?

104 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:06:15pm

re: #97 WindHorse

what happened to Lance?


Too much whine. Got the stick.

105 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:06:45pm

re: #80 ploome hineni

I would tell you, but then, you know

(I would have to keeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel you)

Tell him!
/

106 WindHorse  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:06:45pm

10-4. Thanks.

107 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:07:38pm
108 laxmatt1984  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:07:39pm

Is the "turtles" part at the end a reference to the opening anecdote in Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time"?

109 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:07:56pm

I've been around for a while, but let me ask...When someone gets banned are we supposed to get all "Harry Potter" and call them, "They who must not be named"? Or is it just a fun liitle game that has evolved.

I don't know who got banned. I am clueless. (Normal for me.)

110 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:11pm

so what is buzzsawmonkey, chopped liver?

111 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:14pm
112 Catttt  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:30pm

re: #100 jcm

You're lucky that's all that was in your fan.

Call Snopes!

113 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:31pm

re: #90 DesertSage

Nope, no trick. I just respect your opinion so I thought I'd ask.

I would have thought you'd know me well enough by now to know what my answer would be.

But let me ask you something. Does it bother you that the agenda of the people at the discovery institute in injecting creationism into the classroom are doing it with the intent of students being "introduced to Jesus"?

114 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:31pm
115 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:54pm

re: #107 song_and_dance_man

I leave for thirty seconds, hit 'new comments', and the scroll bar shrinks to half its size!

116 Dr. Shalit  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:08:59pm

re: #94 Sharmuta

"Sharm" -

Agreed - AND - "Non-Christians" can be perfectly "Moral" which is why I mentioned "The Great Spirit" in my previous post.

-S-

117 Mr. E. Train  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:09:12pm

The only difference betwixt the atheist and the priest is the object of their faith. They both ardently believe in something that can not be proved.

Fine, no skin off of my nose.

As for me, I strongly suspect there is something that might be called God out there. My problem is that I dont think I trust he (it, whatever) always has my best interests at heart.

The priest believes he is there and implicitly trusts him. The atheists dismisses him out of hand. Im stuck kinda believing and at the same time not trusting. Truth be told, I envy them both.

118 jcm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:09:16pm

I had around but I have to evolve / create clean little boys out of two dirty one.

Then create or evolve them from active terrors into sleeping angels.

BBL

119 jainphx  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:09:16pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Aah but can we be sure the Cardinal is speaking from reason. /

120 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:09:31pm
121 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:09:34pm

re: #97 WindHorse

what happened to Lance?

bad memes.

122 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:09:57pm

re: #101 song_and_dance_man

I wouldn't say the debate is silly, I would say that some of the attitudes that get shown during the debate are silly.

123 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:10:00pm

re: #110 itellu3times
Is he gone too?

124 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:10:09pm

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Is there such a thing as non-belief?

Since one cannot "prove" the existence of God, et al., then one must either believe there is a God or believe there is not a God. You are believing, trusting, having faith in your position either way.

125 elevenbravo1969  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:10:21pm

re: #101 song_and_dance_man


...if I die and discover there really is an afterlife...well, I'm just going to throw myself on the mercy of the court.

126 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:11:12pm
127 Catttt  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:11:19pm

I'm going to evolve over to my Vista machine, now that it's fixed. It, in my humble opinion, has a more intelligent design.

/smirk

128 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:11:21pm

re: #93 ploome hineni

not anti religious

anti ignorant

some people attempting to understand the Bible have approached it incorrectly

read Rashi

I've seen anti-religious much more often than I've seen anti-ignorant in the context of what we have been discussing. I know a bit of science myself, although to be fair more physics than biology by far. And, as a former rocket scientist, if I see that "theory of gravity" example trotted out and poorly explained one more time I am going to exhale dinner, so to speak.

Not here to debate the Bible, either.

129 Winslow  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:11:28pm

Like, wow.
Thank you, Charles.

130 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:12:00pm

Some Devo-lution.

131 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:12:24pm

re: #116 Dr. Shalit

Thanks for clarifying. :)

132 WindHorse  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:12:33pm

re: #129 Winslow

Thank you Winslow..... that is a nice piece of work!

133 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:12:37pm

re: #129 Winslow

You're awesome, Winslow!

134 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:12:52pm

re: #108 laxmatt1984

Turtles all the way down.

135 laxmatt1984  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:12:56pm

re: #129 Winslow

Is turtles a reference to "A Brief History of Time"?

136 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:13:26pm

re: #129 Winslow

Like, wow.
Thank you, Charles.

Congrats Winslow, your very own thread!

137 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:13:26pm

re: #97 WindHorse

what happened to Lance?

He got banned for pushing and pushing and pushing. Something was really up his nose. Some who would discuss him behind his back are now gloating.

Too bad, I liked the guy. And I liked some of the gloaters.

138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:13:46pm

re: #125 elevenbravo1969

...if I die and discover there really is an afterlife...well, I'm just going to throw myself on the mercy of the court.

Steve Martin:
Wouldn't it be funny if you died? And you went to heaven? And there were angels floating around and stuff? And you feel stupid?

And you say, "Hey I wasn't all that bad was I? I mean, how many times did I take the Lord's name in vain? (pause) Oh. That many. J.... C.... Oops!"

139 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:13:58pm

re: #124 Pater Coop


Since one cannot "prove" the existence of God, et al., then one must either believe there is a God or believe there is not a God. You are believing, trusting, having faith in your position either way.


To not believe something that can't be proven doesn't require faith.

140 ccoffer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:14:23pm

Its perverse (!?) to understand that Atheism is faith based?
Is it noble to say Atheism is based on science?

Stoopid rules the day. Pity the proud.

141 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:14:35pm

re: #129 Winslow
Good job! I always enjoy your poetry.

142 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:14:53pm

Turtles again: [Link: www.lostgarden.com...]

143 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:15:07pm

re: #123 Pvt Bin Jammin

Is he gone too?

I don't think so ... no, not blocked. Goodness. Just that he's done a ton of excellent parodies.

144 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:15:43pm

re: #142 jaunte

That;s nice.

145 laxmatt1984  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:15:59pm

In my googling, it seems one Supreme Court Justice Scalia has his own favorite turtles story:

"In our favored version, an Eastern guru affirms that the earth is supported on the back of a tiger. When asked what supports the tiger, he says it stands upon an elephant; and when asked what supports the elephant he says it is a giant turtle. When asked, finally, what supports the giant turtle, he is briefly taken aback, but quickly replies “Ah, after that it is turtles all the way down.”

[Link: www.law.cornell.edu...]

146 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:16:01pm

re: #137 OldLineTexan


Too bad, I liked the guy.


Me, too. I kinda had a feeling that he/she had some health issues of late.

147 buster bunny  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:16:22pm

I prefer the one about Billy Bob Shakespeare and his Oyster Gang.

I like the guy .. I think he'll go far with prose like that ....

besides .. i like oysters .. i'm biased.

148 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:16:29pm

re: #140 ccoffer

Its perverse (!?) to understand that Atheism is faith based?
Is it noble to say Atheism is based on science?

Stoopid rules the day. Pity the proud.

What is Scientology based upon, science or revenue. The facts speak for themself.

149 TrollBot PrtoType Six  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:16:40pm

re: #124 Pater Coop

Is there such a thing as non-belief?

Since one cannot "prove" the existence of God, et al., then one must either believe there is a God or believe there is not a God. You are believing, trusting, having faith in your position either way.

You are missing the third way with your two-way, either or thinking. Some of us really don't care one way or the other.

150 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:16:53pm

re: #129 Winslow

Fine work, Winslow.

BTW, have I seen your verses elsewhere on the 'net, or am I imagining things?

151 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:17:04pm

Another poem appropriate for this last week,
having celebrated the 60th anniversary if the State of Israel,
and having seen too many twist and abuse the commemoration,
for the love or appeasement of her enemies................
From Sir Walter Scott, c. 1820

Light of Israel

When Israel ,of the Lord beloved,
Out from the land of bondage came,
Her fathers' God before her moved,
An awful guide in smoke and flame.

By day, along the astonished lands
The cloudy pillar glided slow;
By night, Arabia's crimsoned sands
Returned the fiery column's glow.

There rose the choral hymn of praise,
And trump and timbrel answered keen,
And Zion's daughters poured their lays,
With priest's and warrior's voice between.

No portents now our foes amaze,
Forsaken Israel wanders lone;
Our fathers would not know Thy ways,
And Thou hast left them to their own.

But present still, though now unseen!
When brightly shines the prosperous day,
Be thoughts of Thee a cloudy screen
To temper the deceitful ray.

And oh, when stoops on Judah's path
In shade and storm the frequent night,
Be Thou long-suffering, slow to wrath,
A burning and a shining light!

Our harps we left by Babel's streams,
The tyrant's jest, the Gentile's scorn;
No censer round our altar beams,
And mute are timbrel, harp, and horn.

But Thou hast said The blood of goat,
The flesh of rams I will not prize;
A contrite heart, a humble thought,
Are Mine accepted sacrifice.

152 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:17:09pm
153 snowcrash  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:17:57pm

Does this make Winslow LGF's Poet Laureate?

154 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:18:49pm

Howdy there!

Okay: Show of hands, who considers themselves "atheist" or "agnostic" on this thread? Please identify which. Me: Atheist.

155 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:18:53pm

re: #101 song_and_dance_man

The debate is silly. There are too many unknowns on either side.

I don't think the debate is silly- I think it's been misconstrued, just like the people at discovery institute wanted it to be:

"The objective (of the wedge strategy) is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to 'the truth' of the Bible and then 'the question of sin' and finally 'introduced to Jesus.'"

156 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:19:27pm

re: #113 Sharmuta

But let me ask you something. Does it bother you that the agenda of the people at the discovery institute in injecting creationism into the classroom are doing it with the intent of students being "introduced to Jesus"?

Yes, if that is in fact what they're doing then it does bother me.

But that isn't where I'm coming from when I question the established dogma of secular evolutionists. What I wonder is why they are so afraid to even explore the possibility that at some point there may have been a creator who provided the conditions to make the origins of life possible to begin with.
I'm leaving religion out of this completely (in my mind). I want to explore where all these particles that came to our planet, the ones in the primordial soup, came from to begin with. It could have come from a creator....at least it's a possibility. I find that possibility very fascinating.

157 Truck Monkey  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:19:30pm

re: #148 LoFlyer

What is Scientology based upon, science or revenue. The facts speak for themself.

Faith in revenue.

158 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:19:32pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Atheist.
/we need more polls

159 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:19:50pm

re: #148 LoFlyer

What is Scientology based upon, science or revenue.

L. Ron Hubbard proving P.T. Barnum correct once and for all.

160 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:20:05pm

What is a poem but letters on a page? What is man but a swirl of electrons in empty space? Matter cannot give the words of a poem its meaning anymore than matter can give meaning to man. It is the abstract that gives meaning and existence to both. Destroy the paper that the poem is written on, or destroy the material substance that is mortal man, but the abstract of both remain. God.

161 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:20:39pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Ron Paul.

162 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:20:48pm

re: #157 Truck Monkey

Faith in revenue.

Hubbard was crazy like a fox!

163 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:21:35pm

re: #152 song_and_dance_man

Science is the discovery of the machinations of Creation.

Well said. I have no doubt that God leads science to discovery. Whether or not that scientist believes in God is irrelevant and God isn't going to tell us how to interpret scientific discovery. He doesn't need to. It is what it is.

164 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:21:45pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader
* crickets *

165 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:21:52pm

re: #153 snowcrash

Does this make Winslow LGF's Poet Laureate?

Seconded!

Every good blog forum should have its resident poet.

(On that note, check out lyle at Tim Blair's when you get the chance. A born wit.)

166 Cartman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:21:54pm

Ah, it's the Groundhog Day thread topic, once again!

167 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:21:59pm

re: #161 jaunte

Ron Paul.

BOOO! Get thee to BANNED CAMP!

168 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:22:03pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Christian (or was I supposed to answer).

169 jainphx  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:22:22pm

re: #101 song_and_dance_man

So true, I have my own convictions and nothing can change that, but some one please explain the eye, how did this intricate body part happen.

170 laxmatt1984  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:22:40pm

Methodist (you know, a Baptist who can read)

171 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:22:51pm

re: #164 EC Marm

* crickets *

You worship crickets?

Well... that's cool, baby, if that's your bag.

172 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:22:59pm

re: #170 laxmatt1984

Ha!

173 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:23:02pm

re: #139 Killgore Trout

Respectfully, I repeat: there is no such thing as "to not believe." You can say, "I believe that something is," or, you can say, "I believe that something is not."

174 Pent.  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:23:41pm
Methodist (you know, a Baptist who can read)


Just what we needed in a thread like this: some denominational sparring!

175 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:23:47pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Howdy there!

Okay: Show of hands, who considers themselves "atheist" or "agnostic" on this thread? Please identify which. Me: Atheist.

How about "dazed" or "confused"? Me.

176 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:23:55pm

re: #168 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Christian (or was I supposed to answer).

YOU RUINED IT!

Seriously, no, I was asking atheist/agnostic only for a reason (just curious about rough representation at this blog), but all may chime in, naturally.

177 laxmatt1984  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:24:18pm

Oh come now, that's an old joke.

What is a Methodist?
A Methodist is a Baptist who can read.
What is a Presbyterian?
A Presbyterian is nothing more than a rich Methodist.
What is an Episcopalian?
An Episcopalian is just a Catholic who flunked Latin.

178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:24:28pm

I am beginning to lose my faith in the Celtics (just for tonight). Does that count for anything?

179 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:24:31pm

re: #167 Occasional Reader

BOOO! Get thee to BANNED CAMP!


That's not fair! Every LGF poll, even a simple "show of hands", must have "Ron Paul" as an option or Charles will get hate mail.

Agnostic, fwiw.

180 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:24:36pm

re: #170 laxmatt1984

Methodist (you know, a Baptist who can read)

You mean sing. I grew up attending a Methodist church but became Episcopalian in college, but I still think the Methodist hymnal is the best.

181 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:24:47pm

re: #173 Pater Coop

there is no such thing as "to not believe."


Sure there is. Do you believe that I'm 10 feet tall and purple? I'll bet you don't.

182 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:11pm

re: #181 Killgore Trout

Sure there is. Do you believe that I'm 10 feet tall and purple? I'll bet you don't.

You mean you're not?

183 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:11pm

re: #178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am beginning to lose my faith in the Celtics (just for tonight). Does that count for anything?

Then you can still believe in the King James alternative.

184 Winslow  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:36pm

Thank you all, gentle readers.

185 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:43pm

re: #177 laxmatt1984

LOL!

186 TrollBot PrtoType Six  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:44pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Howdy there!

Okay: Show of hands, who considers themselves "atheist" or "agnostic" on this thread? Please identify which. Me: Atheist.

apathetic agnostic

187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:47pm

re: #183 itellu3times

Well played.

188 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:25:53pm

re: #173 Pater Coop

there is no such thing as "to not believe."


I don't believe that.
/Missed the obvious joke earlier

189 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:26:05pm

re: #173 Pater Coop

Respectfully, I repeat: there is no such thing as "to not believe." You can say, "I believe that something is," or, you can say, "I believe that something is not."

Killgore's point is that atheism is not (or need not) be based on faith. As that word is used with respect to religious belief, "faith" means belief without regard to evidence. That is (generally) not the atheist's position.

190 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:26:14pm

re: #184 Winslow

Thank you all, gentle readers.

You're most welcome!

191 Pent.  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:26:26pm

re: #180 goddessoftheclassroom

You mean sing. I grew up attending a Methodist church but became Episcopalian in college, but I still think the Methodist hymnal is the best.

Yeah, well us Lutherans can...well...have some mad pot luck dinners...

192 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:26:33pm

re: #156 DesertSage

Have you read the wedge document? Have you seen the other statements by it's author (one of which I quoted above)? Have you read the court case the discovery institute was involved in?

193 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:26:42pm

re: #170 laxmatt1984

Methodist (you know, a Baptist who can read)

Nice.
/

194 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:26:53pm

re: #179 Spiny Norman

Agnostic, fwiw.

And how do you define "agnostic" for your purposes?

195 The Shadow Do  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:27:32pm

Strikes me as true that had God created a literal first man and first woman as tradition describes that the whole of creation and subsequent fall from grace teaching exercise would be pretty pointless. If God had wanted things so literal, so obvious, and so fundamental as to his existence would he not have made such things incredibly obvious?

"Hello! God here! get with the program people!"

This mystery will be solved, or ignored, forever.

196 TrollBot PrtoType Six  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:27:56pm

re: #178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am beginning to lose my faith in the Celtics (just for tonight). Does that count for anything?

Shit,I lost faith in the Vikings a long time ago.

197 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:28:27pm

re: #173 Pater Coop

Respectfully, I repeat: there is no such thing as "to not believe." You can say, "I believe that something is," or, you can say, "I believe that something is not."

Don't go runnin' that there formal logic in on folks!

198 snowcrash  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:28:44pm

OMG, Charles didn't even start it this time! LOL

199 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:28:49pm

My real problem with Hubbard and Scientology is that Hubbard deliberately created a "religion" for the sole purpose of making big bucks and satisfying his huge ego at the price of hundreds of thousands of humans led down a mental highway that offers few solutions, but incurs tremendous debt upon the individual and huge profits for the Scientologists. Name one other religion that you have to pay to participate in. Germany is absolutely correct to deny Scientology as a religion....

200 EC Marm  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:28:50pm

re: #176 Occasional Reader

just curious about rough representation at this blog


Plenty of rough representation at this blog, a little less since %u0250%u0279%u028E%u0250%u0279 got the stick. Uh, what was the question again?

201 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:28:58pm

re: #187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well played.

My Lakers lost last night, boohoo.

202 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:29:17pm
203 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:29:53pm

re: #178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am beginning to lose my faith in the Celtics (just for tonight). Does that count for anything?

I lost my faith in the Lakers last night. Maybe they will redeem themselves tomorrow.

204 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:29:58pm

re: #196 TrollBot PrtoType Six

Shit,I lost faith in the Vikings a long time ago.

Take heart!

205 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:30:11pm

re: #191 Pent.

Yeah, well us Lutherans can...well...have some mad pot luck dinners...

Just don't ever desecrate the lutefisk.

206 jainphx  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:30:45pm

re: #168 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm with you.

207 bosforus  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:31:04pm

re: #204 MandyManners

Take heart!

LOL!

208 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:31:33pm

re: #199 LoFlyer

My real problem with Hubbard and Scientology is that Hubbard deliberately created a "religion" for the sole purpose of making big bucks and satisfying his huge ego at the price of hundreds of thousands of humans led down a mental highway that offers few solutions, but incurs tremendous debt upon the individual and huge profits for the Scientologists. Name one other religion that you have to pay to participate in. Germany is absolutely correct to deny Scientology as a religion....

I disagree. A free nation allows people to choose their paths of conscience.

209 snowcrash  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:31:58pm

I lost my faith in the Dallas Stars. 2nd loss to Detroit Redwings.

210 Pent.  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:32:00pm

re: #205 Spiny Norman

Just don't ever desecrate the lutefisk.

Military efforts to stabilize the violent ethnic Protestantism of the region have had a mixed record of success.

That is a sentence you don't read very often.

211 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:32:10pm
212 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:32:31pm

re: #202 song_and_dance_man

OK! We are getting somewhere! Please read the links I provided to DesertSage in #192 to better understand the agenda of the "scientific theists" that I feel is really the issue here.

213 thelongblogger  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:32:35pm

re: #165 Spiny Norman

Seconded!

Every good blog forum should have its resident poet.

(On that note, check out lyle at Tim Blair's when you get the chance. A born wit.)

Amen!

/runs and hides

214 Catttt  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:32:48pm

I really admire anyone who can write poetry. I can barely hack out a haiku. My favorite, which I did not write, of course (Peter Rothman did):

Windows NT crashed.
I am the Blue Screen of Death.
No one hears your screams.

Haiku Error Messsages

215 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:32:51pm

re: #189 Occasional Reader

Killgore's point is that atheism is not (or need not) be based on faith. As that word is used with respect to religious belief, "faith" means belief without regard to evidence. That is (generally) not the atheist's position.

If you believe in something based on theory, not on fact...then your belief system is faith based. Period.

216 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:33:21pm

re: #173 Pater Coop

Respectfully, I repeat: there is no such thing as "to not believe." You can say, "I believe that something is," or, you can say, "I believe that something is not."

There is of course at least one other option: "I *believe* that Phenomenon X is insufficiently defined, in a coherent fashion, so as to be able to have a meaningful discussion of 'belief' in, or 'proof' of, Phenomenon X."

217 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:34:08pm

re: #210 Pent.

That is a sentence you don't read very often.

Neither is this one:

...weekend demonstrations by rock- and figurine-throwing Lutheran farm wives that left over 200 people injured and leveled the Whippy Dip dairy freeze.

Made Iowahawk a parody superstar, that post did.

218 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:34:14pm

re: #189 Occasional Reader

I am trying to understand you. Did you say that faith is defined as a belief that disregards evidence?

219 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:34:18pm

re: #156 DesertSage

I want to explore where all these particles that came to our planet, the ones in the primordial soup, came from to begin with. It could have come from a creator....at least it's a possibility. I find that possibility very fascinating.

I quote this not because I want to pick your text apart, but because it's something I think everyone, myself included, has had occasion to ponder on more than once.

With that said, the proposition of a Creator, Intelligent Designer, or any other concepts of the supernatural, falls strictly into the realms of philosophy and/or theology, and has no reasonable right whatsoever to claim a place within the realm of science.

220 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:34:58pm

re: #215 DesertSage

If you believe in something based on theory, not on fact...then your belief system is faith based. Period.

The "theory is the opposite of fact" talking point has been rebutted enough times in these threads that I'm just not gonna bother doing it again.

221 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:35:05pm

re: #208 MandyManners

I disagree. A free nation allows people to choose their paths of conscience.

As well as everything else.

I was thinking this afternoon about those who succeeded in getting McDonald's to change their frying oil.

Why couldn't they just choose not to eat McDonald's? I don't eat there very often, but I miss the way the fries used to taste.

I'm all for the right to protest and insisting on getting information out to the public, but I can't stand others dictating how I have to live.

222 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:35:44pm

re: #215 DesertSage

If you believe in something based on theory, not on fact...then your belief system is faith based. Period.

No, I don't think so. Kierkegaard says faith in God is not to be based on logic, but belief in something absent evidence or against evidence is not a religious thing, it is a hypothesis that one hopes later to prove.

Belief in wacky theories is not faith.

Shall I illustrate?

Ron Paul.

223 jainphx  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:36:46pm

re: #209 snowcrash

Yea Wings.

224 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:36:55pm

re: #218 Pater Coop

I am trying to understand you. Did you say that faith is defined as a belief that disregards evidence?

As used to describe religious faith (generally, in the Western tradition); yes.

Of course we use "faith" more loosely in other, secular ways... I have "faith" that when I turn my key in the ignition my car will start, but what that means is that I have enough EVIDENCE that it does so reliably.

225 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:01pm

re: #214 Catttt

I really admire anyone who can write poetry. I can barely hack out a haiku. My favorite, which I did not write, of course (Peter Rothman did):

Windows NT crashed.
I am the Blue Screen of Death.
No one hears your screams.

Haiku Error Messsages

Here's one from me to you:

The motherboard burned.
A stalled fan is the root cause.
Get out the checkbook.

226 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:02pm

re: #214 Catttt

That one is my favorite! I love those, but I'd lost my link to them years ago. Thanks for posting!

227 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:09pm

re: #222 itellu3times

I correct myself: I think the proper statement is that belief in God is to be based on faith, requires faith. Faith does not justify it - it does not need justifying!

228 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:18pm

re: #221 goddessoftheclassroom

As well as everything else.

I was thinking this afternoon about those who succeeded in getting McDonald's to change their frying oil.

Why couldn't they just choose not to eat McDonald's? I don't eat there very often, but I miss the way the fries used to taste.

I'm all for the right to protest and insisting on getting information out to the public, but I can't stand others dictating how I have to live.

Yep. Taking the beef tallow out made them as bland as everyone else's.

229 tripletdad  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:24pm

Creators need creators?

230 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:46pm

re: #208 MandyManners

I disagree. A free nation allows people to choose their paths of conscience.


Sorry Mandy, can't agree with you. Yes a free nation allows those to choose their own path, I strongly disagree with Germany and Austria's thought control laws regarding holocaust denial. I do agree that scientology is like no other in modern history in their pursuit of revenue (I suspect that they learned something from the Catholic church which owns huge assets donated through the ages....)

231 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:37:53pm

re: #229 tripletdad

Creators need creators?

Nope, and that's pretty much their best trick!

232 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:38:38pm

re: #221 goddessoftheclassroom

As well as everything else.

I was thinking this afternoon about those who succeeded in getting McDonald's to change their frying oil.

Why couldn't they just choose not to eat McDonald's? I don't eat there very often, but I miss the way the fries used to taste.

I'm all for the right to protest and insisting on getting information out to the public, but I can't stand others dictating how I have to live.

Wanna'be dictators!

233 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:38:42pm

re: #181 Killgore Trout

Sure there is. Do you believe that I'm 10 feet tall and purple? I'll bet you don't.

I do! Now sell me some expensive tap water!
/

234 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:05pm

re: #192 Sharmuta

Have you read the wedge document? Have you seen the other statements by it's author (one of which I quoted above)? Have you read the court case the discovery institute was involved in?

I understand the apprehensions you have toward the ID people when when it comes to agendas like they have.
That's not where I'm coming from. That's not where I'm at.

I'm well beyond agendas. I'm well beyond debating whether species evolved or not. Science has proven that there has been evolution on this planet. That is a fact. Like I said before, I'm looking out into the universe. I want to know whether there's someone or something out there who created all of these conditions for evolution to occur in the first place. Evolution, for me, is just the end game.

235 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:15pm

re: #227 itellu3times

I correct myself: I think the proper statement is that belief in God is to be based on faith, requires faith. Faith does not justify it - it does not need justifying!

Faith is not a belief that disregards evidence, but one that does not require it. "Evidence" is irrelevant.

236 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:15pm

re: #221 goddessoftheclassroom

My wife loves McDonalds fries...got some today...BITCHED ABOUT THEM FOR AN HOUR.

It would make me said if she stopped eating at McDonalds.

/

237 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:19pm

re: #208 MandyManners

I disagree. A free nation allows people to choose their paths of conscience.

Yes, but... it's also perfectly legitimate for a free society to ban outright fraud. So, the discussion question would be, whether Scientology fits that description.

238 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:28pm

re: #63 Jay777

How did the first unliving substance obtain "life"?

I'd ask a prion, but I don't understand their language.

239 greenmiler  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:32pm

re: #215 DesertSage

If you believe in something based on theory, not on fact...then your belief system is faith based. Period.

It must be faith based because atheism (there is no god)cannot be proven

240 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:39:58pm

re: #228 Spiny Norman

Yep. Taking the beef tallow out made them as bland as everyone else's.

KRYSTAL ROCKS!

241 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:40:05pm

re: #228 Spiny Norman

Yep. Taking the beef tallow out made them as bland as everyone else's.

eeeeeew.

242 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:40:22pm

re: #229 tripletdad

Creators need creators?

Or, an explanation for how it can be that they had no prime cause themselves.

243 DixieLou  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:40:33pm

re: #74 ploome hineni

because you are a normal reasonable individual with no religious agenda

/whatsamatta wid you?

Actually, in the 19th century the theology for most protestants was fixed that God might have created by evolution. This controversy is new and I am not sure why.

I believe it might be perhaps that there are more dedicated Christians that are scientists than formerly and that sweeping discoveries in DNA and along those lines have led these people to rethink the whole subject.

244 Cartman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:40:49pm

re: #221 goddessoftheclassroom

I'm all for the right to protest and insisting on getting information out to the public, but I can't stand others dictating how I have to live.

I have a feeling we're just now encountering the tip of the iceberg on that.

245 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:40:59pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Catholic, you know, the one everybody else in the West splintered off from.

246 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:41:35pm

re: #209 snowcrash

I lost my faith in the Dallas Stars. 2nd loss to Detroit Redwings.

And my faith in the Wings is confirmed. They won w/o Franzen.

247 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:41:44pm

re: #230 LoFlyer

Sorry Mandy, can't agree with you. Yes a free nation allows those to choose their own path, I strongly disagree with Germany and Austria's thought control laws regarding holocaust denial. I do agree that scientology is like no other in modern history in their pursuit of revenue (I suspect that they learned something from the Catholic church which owns huge assets donated through the ages....)

Isn't freedom all about letting the individual make her/his choices and live with the consequences?

248 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:42:05pm

re: #235 Spiny Norman

Faith is not a belief that disregards evidence, but one that does not require it. "Evidence" is irrelevant.

Yes, I agree. That was my original definition above, I mistakenly said "yes" to Pater's "disregards?" question.

249 snowcrash  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:42:09pm

re: #246 Honorary Yooper
They are looking like winners!

250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:42:46pm

G'night Mary Ellen!

251 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:42:58pm

re: #224 Occasional Reader

I am really not trying to be tedious, but could you please define "evidence." That word may get bandied about a bit too loosely as well, I am afraid.

252 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:43:53pm

re: #240 MandyManners

KRYSTAL ROCKS!

Went into a Krystal several months ago during lunch hour. One person at the register, one at the drive-through and one running the grill. People making huge orders for 36 burgers at a time, waited 10 minutes and lost patience. Didn't eat lunch that day....

253 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:43:56pm

re: #232 MandyManners

re: #221 goddessoftheclassroom

As well as everything else.

I was thinking this afternoon about those who succeeded in getting McDonald's to change their frying oil.

Why couldn't they just choose not to eat McDonald's? I don't eat there very often, but I miss the way the fries used to taste.

I'm all for the right to protest and insisting on getting information out to the public, but I can't stand others dictating how I have to live.

Wanna'be dictators!

Driving saturated animal fats out of the marketplace, with government support, and replacing them with supposedly "healthy" hydrogenated vegetable oils, was the beginning of the overbearing Nanny State.

Beware the "creeping incrementalism".

254 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:44:02pm
255 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:44:43pm

re: #237 Occasional Reader

Yes, but... it's also perfectly legitimate for a free society to ban outright fraud. So, the discussion question would be, whether Scientology fits that description.

Couldn't an atheist claim that all religions are fraudulent bent on making people ignore their materially poor lives in exchange for a better future in Heaven?

*Paging Herr Marx. Paging Herr Marx.*

256 tripletdad  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:45:24pm

re: #231 itellu3times

...but Creation (i.e. the physical Universe) does not need a Creator, nor does it indicate their actually IS a Creator.

/is that what he's saying?

257 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:46:34pm

re: #234 DesertSage

Okay, Sage. I can respect that.

Perhaps I'm just too concerned about the state of education in this country. Perhaps I'm too concerned about people from various political ideologies attempting to usurp the Constitution. Perhaps I'm secure enough in my faith to not be beyond this agenda.

258 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:46:42pm

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Howdy there!

Okay: Show of hands, who considers themselves "atheist" or "agnostic" on this thread? Please identify which. Me: Atheist.

Nietzsche said God was dead. God says Nietzsche is dead. Euripides said that those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. Nietzsche died after 12 long years of insanity. So I say, Don't f--- with the Gods.

259 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:46:55pm

re: #252 LoFlyer

Went into a Krystal several months ago during lunch hour. One person at the register, one at the drive-through and one running the grill. People making huge orders for 36 burgers at a time, waited 10 minutes and lost patience. Didn't eat lunch that day....

The vagaries of retail can really suck.

I love their itsy-bitsy burgers. Between two and an order of fries, I'm full.

260 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:47:08pm

re: #254 song_and_dance_man

I still want to see a monk-moeba.

261 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:47:17pm

re: #255 MandyManners

Couldn't an atheist claim that all religions are fraudulent bent on making people ignore their materially poor lives in exchange for a better future in Heaven?

If one followed that logic to an absurd extreme. Like Herr Marx.

262 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:47:26pm

re: #218 Pater Coop

I am trying to understand you. Did you say that faith is defined as a belief that disregards evidence?

I know you didn't ask me, but IMO faith is defined as a belief in things that can't be evidenced.

263 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:47:54pm

re: #254 song_and_dance_man

okay....can you stick it in your favorites and read it later, maybe?

264 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:48:22pm

re: #247 MandyManners

Isn't freedom all about letting the individual make her/his choices and live with the consequences?

I agree but don't we also have laws protecting consumers against fraud? This is the same thing. Scientology hides behind religion but is nothing less than a confidance game or a scam. L. Ron Hubbard lived his last years on a luxurious yacht because of scientologies tax evasion issues. A man without a country.....

265 pat  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:48:33pm

There is no Mother's Day in Islam. There are only days of hate, masquerading as bloodthirsty joy.

266 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:48:53pm

re: #253 Spiny Norman

Driving saturated animal fats out of the marketplace, with government support, and replacing them with supposedly "healthy" hydrogenated vegetable oils, was the beginning of the overbearing Nanny State.

Beware the "creeping incrementalism".

GRAMSCIAN WHORES, THE LOT OF THEM!

The Nanny State began before then. I don't know exactly what was the start but, it wasn't with the fat wars.

267 Occasional Reader  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:49:22pm

Tawk amongst yahselves for few minutes... back soon.

268 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:49:41pm

re: #254 song_and_dance_man

It's Saturday night and I don't want to read a lot of text. Let me say this so you know where I stand. When I say Evolutionist I refer to those who hold to the theory that life evolves in some form. But not in the same fashion as those who say that we came from monkeys or her distant cousin the amoeba. Environmental mutation is my evolution, if you will.

What I do object to is the Big Bangers. The 'all this came from nothing' crowd.

Campbell's soup!

269 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:51:00pm

re: #264 LoFlyer

Years ago my wife worked for a company that was eaten from the inside by Scientology. The 'pre-clear' interviews they conduct are rich in blackmail material, and the president of her company got hooked and kept paying into the con.

270 mama winger  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:51:02pm

I have a splitting headache.

But let me tell you a bedtime story.

When LW was five years old, we were helping him learn to ride a two-wheeler. He was finally getting the hang of it. So we let him start at one end of the street and ride toward us. About three quarters of the way, he started to wobble. He tried to catch himself. His foot got tangled up in the spokes of the back wheel somehow. We watched as his ankle twisted, then we heard the sound of the bone breaking. He crashed to the street.

I ran over to him in a panic , and he stood up. I examined his foot was but it was not injured in any way. We couldn't understand it.

I said, "Doesn't your foot hurt?" He said, "No. That man held my foot and fixed it right away. Where did he go?"

271 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:51:34pm

re: #263 Sharmuta

okay....can you stick it in your favorites and read it later, maybe?

I'll definitely bookmark them and read them later. As far as research goes, you are unrivaled in that arena.
You keep people honest....we need more Sharmuta's!

272 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:51:45pm

re: #262 Slumbering Behemoth

I know you didn't ask me, but IMO faith is defined as a belief in things that can't be evidenced.

Okay. I give up. What is IMO? Someone? Anyone?

273 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:51:50pm

re: #240 MandyManners

KRYSTAL ROCKS!

There doesn't appear to be any locations further west than Texas.
Ah, well...

If I eat at a burger joint, I usually go to Carl's Jr. and have "seasoned criss-cut" fries. With a side of Ranch dressing.

274 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:51:58pm

re: #261 Spiny Norman

If one followed that logic to an absurd extreme. Like Herr Marx.

So, who is to make the decision that one religion is okay but, another is not?

While I have no love for Scientology, I do not want to see it outlawed.

275 Ning the Merciless  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:52:20pm

re: #50 DesertSage

Well I really hate this whole argument because it is really just bullshit semantics. It is trying to drive a wedge and create hatred between Theists and Atheists. The Theist says Atheism is a religion because they cannot absolutely prove that there is no God and therefore they are relying on "faith" to hold their beliefs in the non-existence of God. On the other hand most Atheists I think look at the world from a skeptical and naturalistic point of view. They are merely saying "Assuming everything human religious thought is considered biased and unusable testimony - what evidence is there for the origins of the universe and life?" An honest review of our accumulated scientific knowledge will reveal no evidence of a deity, a supreme being or any other godlings in any facet of the universe. Certainly there are things still unknown - but replacing the concept of "Unknown" with the concept "God" is not really a useful or justified response.
I suggest those of you who are creationists and ready for an Intellectual Bitch Slapping feel free to follow this link to a series of 24 short videos on YouTube entitled "Why do People Laugh at Creationists"

276 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:52:41pm

re: #259 MandyManners

The vagaries of retail can really suck.

I love their itsy-bitsy burgers. Between two and an order of fries, I'm full.

Little Krystals steamed and greased are wonderful! My grandmother lived about three blocks from the Krystal HQ in Chattanooga, TN during the 60's. They had a Krystal right next to the HQ and you can bet service and product was excellent.....

277 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:52:44pm

i'm glad you all believe as you do. that's the good thing abt this country.

278 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:52:45pm

re: #270 mama winger

I have a splitting headache.

But let me tell you a bedtime story.

When LW was five years old, we were helping him learn to ride a two-wheeler. He was finally getting the hang of it. So we let him start at one end of the street and ride toward us. About three quarters of the way, he started to wobble. He tried to catch himself. His foot got tangled up in the spokes of the back wheel somehow. We watched as his ankle twisted, then we heard the sound of the bone breaking. He crashed to the street.

I ran over to him in a panic , and he stood up. I examined his foot was but it was not injured in any way. We couldn't understand it.

I said, "Doesn't your foot hurt?" He said, "No. That man held my foot and fixed it right away. Where did he go?"

You gave me chills (the good kind).

{mama winger}

279 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:52:46pm

re: #272 katemaclaren

In
My
Opinion

280 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:52:53pm

re: #264 LoFlyer

I agree but don't we also have laws protecting consumers against fraud? This is the same thing. Scientology hides behind religion but is nothing less than a confidance game or a scam. L. Ron Hubbard lived his last years on a luxurious yacht because of scientologies tax evasion issues. A man without a country.....

There are many who would point to the pope and say the same thing.

281 steve  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:53:06pm

Hmm, I wonder. If I put all the parts for a Hummer into a container and blew it up would I get a fully operational Hummer?

282 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:53:11pm

re: #270 mama winger

Did that happen to you?

283 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:53:14pm

re: #269 jaunte

Years ago my wife worked for a company that was eaten from the inside by Scientology. The 'pre-clear' interviews they conduct are rich in blackmail material, and the president of her company got hooked and kept paying into the con.

Like zombies eating its brain?!?

=^0

284 pat  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:53:26pm

re: #270 mama winger

My daughters first excursion ended at a neighbors post box. Went down hard. lol. She never could master a stick shift. Genius IQ.

285 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:53:44pm

re: #265 pat

There is no Mother's Day in Islam. There are only days of hate, masquerading as bloodthirsty joy.

MOTHERS ROCK!

286 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:09pm

re: #273 Spiny Norman

There doesn't appear to be any locations further west than Texas.
Ah, well...

If I eat at a burger joint, I usually go to Carl's Jr. and have "seasoned criss-cut" fries. With a side of Ranch dressing.

For some reason, I loathe anything on fries but salt. Mebbe' I just like the taters.

287 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:10pm

re: #181 Killgore Trout

My point exactly! So, you do agree that there is no such thing as "non-belief"?

288 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:12pm

re: #279 OldLineTexan

In
My
Opinion

Oh thank you OldLine Texan!
I would NEVER have figured that out. Are you in Texas? This is my favorite time of year there--when all the wildflowers are blooming.

289 pat  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:18pm

re: #285 MandyManners

MOTHERS ROCK!

Osso Bucco for the mothers in my family. White rice. Coconut cream pie.

290 WindHorse  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:24pm

Mama Winger

Thanks for the story. I hope you get some good rest tonight and have a peaceful, happy Mother's Day!

291 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:32pm

I have a question! Would anybody find objection with this?:

Phase I is the essential component of everything that comes afterward. Without solid scholarship, research and argument, the project would be just another attempt to indoctrinate instead of persuade. A lesson we have learned from the history of islam is that it is unnecessary to outnumber the opposing establishment. islamic revolutions are usually staged by an initially small and relatively young group of islamists who are not blinded by the prevailing prejudices and who are able to do creative work at the pressure points, that is, on those critical issues upon which whole systems of thought hinge. So, in Phase I we are supporting vital witting and research at the sites most likely to crack the democracy edifice.

Phase II. The primary purpose of Phase II is to prepare the popular reception of our ideas. The best and truest research can languish unread and unused unless it is properly publicized. For this reason we seek to cultivate and convince influential individuals in print and broadcast media, as well as think tank leaders, scientists and academics, congressional staff, talk show hosts, college and seminary presidents and faculty, future talent and potential academic allies. Because of his long tenure in politics, journalism and public policy, cair chairman Parvez Ahmed brings to the project rare knowledge and acquaintance of key op-ed writers, journalists, and political leaders. This combination of islamic and scholarly expertise and media and political connections makes the Wedge unique, and also prevents it from being "merely academic." Other activities include production of a PBS documentary on islam and its implications, and popular op-ed publishing. Alongside a focus on influential opinion-makers, we also seek to build up a popular base of support among our natural constituency, namely, muslims. We will do this primarily through apologetics seminars. We intend these to encourage and equip believers with new islamic evidence's [sic!] that support the faith, as well as to "popularize" our ideas in the broader culture.

Phase III. Once our research and writing have had time to mature, and the public prepared for the reception of dawa'h, we will move toward direct confrontation with the advocates of democracy through challenge conferences in significant academic settings. We will also pursue possible legal assistance in response to resistance to the integration of islam into public school science curricula. The attention, publicity, and influence of islam should draw democratic idealists into open debate with islamists, and we will be ready. With an added emphasis to the social sciences and humanities, we will begin to address the specific social consequences of democracy and the American theory that supports it in the political sciences.

292 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:40pm

re: #274 MandyManners

So, who is to make the decision that one religion is okay but, another is not?

While I have no love for Scientology, I do not want to see it outlawed.

Mandy, Scientology is not a religion, it is a fraud and a scam perpertrated by one of the smartest science fiction writers in the business. Free thought is one thing, fraud is another.

293 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:55:57pm

re: #274 MandyManners

So, who is to make the decision that one religion is okay but, another is not?

While I have no love for Scientology, I do not want to see it outlawed.

Neither do I, but I have no problem with public criticism of its methods or, more importantly, denunciations of its attempts to intimidate and silence such criticisms.

294 mama winger  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:00pm

re: #282 katemaclaren

Did that happen to you?

Yes. More exactly, to my son as I was watching.

295 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:02pm

re: #283 Spiny Norman

It was very creepy! The new Scientology employees had this arch jargon they used with each other, calling potential troublemakers 'squirrels.'

296 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:06pm

re: #258 katemaclaren

Nietzsche said God was dead. God says Nietzsche is dead. Euripides said that those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. Nietzsche died after 12 long years of insanity. So I say, Don't f--- with the Gods.

So often the comment is heard that Nietzsche said that God was dead, but few have read the source of that comment. It is a deeper and more astute observation of the human condition then it is given credit for.

The Parable of the Madman

A Youtube reading of the above.

297 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:12pm

re: #275 Ning the Merciless

I suggest that you kiss my ass.

298 DesertSage  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:30pm

re: #275 Ning the Merciless

Well, I suggest you read Mama Wingers #270. Tell her that there's no God.

...and you wonder why people laugh at atheists

299 mama winger  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:50pm

re: #290 WindHorse

Mama Winger

Thanks for the story. I hope you get some good rest tonight and have a peaceful, happy Mother's Day!

Thank you, and goodnight.

Happy Mother's Day to all if I don't see you before then !

300 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:56:50pm

re: #291 Sharmuta

Excellent way to put it, Shar.

301 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:57:01pm

re: #276 LoFlyer

Little Krystals steamed and greased are wonderful! My grandmother lived about three blocks from the Krystal HQ in Chattanooga, TN during the 60's. They had a Krystal right next to the HQ and you can bet service and product was excellent.....

Oh, the steaminess of it all! And, those itsy-bitsy onions!

302 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:57:06pm

re: #288 katemaclaren

Oh thank you OldLine Texan!
I would NEVER have figured that out. Are you in Texas? This is my favorite time of year there--when all the wildflowers are blooming.

Yes, and the flower show is just about over. Getting hot and humid (i.e., summer) here just past the Coastal Prairie.

303 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:58:37pm

re: #262 Slumbering Behemoth

What is your definition of "evidence"?

304 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:58:59pm

re: #291 Sharmuta

Well you can bet our Universities are buying into phase three and the Suadi grants accompanying the phase.....

305 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:59:09pm

re: #224 Occasional Reader

You say that in the Western tradition faith is defined as "a belief that disregards evidence."
Augustine? Anselm? Thomas Aquinas? Grosseteste? Abelard? Bonaventure?
Origen? Cyprian? Scotus? John Damascene? Luther? Calvin?
Who? Not even radical fideists like Barth or Kierkegaard would ever "disregard evidence."
Get thee to a nunnery and read Benedict's Regensburg address! (For starters.)

306 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:59:32pm

re: #300 Honorary Yooper

Thanks, Yooper.

307 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:59:37pm
308 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:59:58pm

re: #289 pat

Osso Bucco for the mothers in my family. White rice. Coconut cream pie.

The Kid saved his money for a very, very long time to give me cash to buy a new purse. I can't buy Coach with it but, it's the thought that counts.

309 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 7:59:59pm
310 yochanan  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:00:18pm

i am not bothered by some one who says there is no g-d but i am bothered by those who make a religion out of it.

311 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:00:37pm

i don't even believe in god, and i know there's a god, folks.

312 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:01:01pm

re: #292 LoFlyer

Mandy, Scientology is not a religion, it is a fraud and a scam perpertrated by one of the smartest science fiction writers in the business. Free thought is one thing, fraud is another.

Well, why not oultaw Islam?!

313 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:01:26pm

re: #293 Spiny Norman

Neither do I, but I have no problem with public criticism of its methods or, more importantly, denunciations of its attempts to intimidate and silence such criticisms.

Mockery!

314 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:01:34pm

re: #307 ploome hineni

myfirst car was an NSU Prinz, 4 on the floor

while learning to shift gears,I brokethe universaljoint

......try finding an universal joint for an NSU Prinz

did you ever get the gist of shifting?

315 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:01:43pm

re: #310 yochanan

i am not bothered by some one who says there is no g-d but i am bothered by those who make a religion out of it.

I'm even more bothered by those Lizards who seem to enjoy insulting and belittling those of us who do believe.

316 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:01:59pm

re: #230 LoFlyer

Sorry Mandy, can't agree with you. Yes a free nation allows those to choose their own path, I strongly disagree with Germany and Austria's thought control laws regarding holocaust denial. I do agree that scientology is like no other in modern history in their pursuit of revenue (I suspect that they learned something from the Catholic church which owns huge assets donated through the ages....)

The Catholic Church does not have obligatory charges for spiritual services. Scientology does. In my view, Scientology should be allowed to operate as any other profit-making business.

317 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:02:13pm

re: #270 mama winger

I have a splitting headache.

But let me tell you a bedtime story.

When LW was five years old, we were helping him learn to ride a two-wheeler. He was finally getting the hang of it. So we let him start at one end of the street and ride toward us. About three quarters of the way, he started to wobble. He tried to catch himself. His foot got tangled up in the spokes of the back wheel somehow. We watched as his ankle twisted, then we heard the sound of the bone breaking. He crashed to the street.

I ran over to him in a panic , and he stood up. I examined his foot was but it was not injured in any way. We couldn't understand it.

I said, "Doesn't your foot hurt?" He said, "No. That man held my foot and fixed it right away. Where did he go?"


I loved your story mama winger! I just don't understand why religion was good enough for there grand parents, and mothers and fathers , and possibility buried them in a cemetery could not have faith!

318 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:02:36pm

re: #304 LoFlyer

Well you can bet our Universities are buying into phase three and the Suadi grants accompanying the phase.....

So, yes- you have a problem with that strategy?

319 LoFlyer  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:02:44pm

Guys its time for a late dinner, many thanks for the discussion, I extend best wishes to the moms out there! We owe all to you!

320 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:03:44pm

It ain't about the origins of life but, it's from the beginning.

321 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:04:54pm

re: #316 wolfie

The Catholic Church does not have obligatory charges for spiritual services. Scientology does. In my view, Scientology should be allowed to operate as any other profit-making business.

The problem with Scientology is that it preys on the least able to resist. They have some dysfunctional Hollywood stars ato appear as dynamic front men, but it's a dangerous group of thugs that are taking advantage of a lot of weak people.

322 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:05:30pm

re: #316 wolfie

The Catholic Church does not have obligatory charges for spiritual services. Scientology does. In my view, Scientology should be allowed to operate as any other profit-making business.

Indulgences? Paying to light a candle? Paying to have your marriage annulled?

323 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:05:40pm

re: #287 Pater Coop

So, you do agree that there is no such thing as "non-belief"?


Uh, no.

324 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:05:52pm

"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, remain neutral" - Dantere: #296 Syrah

So often the comment is heard that Nietzsche said that God was dead, but few have read the source of that comment. It is a deeper and more astute observation of the human condition then it is given credit for.

The Parable of the Madman

A Youtube reading of the above.

Thanks! I have read some Nietzsche, but stopped short of Zarathustra (if that's how you spell it, I forget). However, I wasn't trying to be DEEP, just making a comment meant to lighten the discourse.
Of course, I could also add Dante's bit about the hottest places in hell being reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, remain neutral.
...so guess where I'm going to end up? On the barby with the other fencesitters. ;-)

325 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:06:11pm

re: #239 greenmiler

It must be faith based because atheism (there is no god)cannot be proven.

Poor analogy, poorly worded. What you seem to be arguing for is negative proof, which is to say: "Such a thing must be true, because there is no proof that it is false". This is a logical fallacy.

It would be akin to saying that my assertion that time travel is impossible must be "faith based" because no one can prove that time travel is impossible.

326 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:06:23pm
327 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:07:47pm

Good night, Lizards.

328 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:08:08pm

re: #327 goddessoftheclassroom

Sweet dreams!

329 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:08:36pm

re: #327 goddessoftheclassroom

Good night, Lizards.


sweetdreams to you!

330 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:08:38pm

re: #327 goddessoftheclassroom

Good night, Lizards.

G'night!

331 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:08:50pm
332 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:08:51pm

re: #327 goddessoftheclassroom

Goodnight goddess.

333 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:08:53pm

Sage? S&D? Would you find my #291 objectionable?

334 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:09:26pm
335 Pater Coop  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:09:36pm

I am out, too. Good night, everybody! Kilgore, Occasional, Slumbering, thank you for entertaining my queries.

337 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:10:37pm

Good night moon
....mothers (and fathers) everywhere.
The local nursery school won't let the children make a mother's day present because some of the children have more than one mother! (stepmothers, etc., or mother is grandmother).

338 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:10:37pm

re: #335 Pater Coop

Nighty-night!

339 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:10:43pm

re: #335 Pater Coop

I am out, too. Good night, everybody! Kilgore, Occasional, Slumbering, thank you for entertaining my queries.


Sweetdreams to you!

340 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:11:16pm

re: #337 katemaclaren

Good night moon
....mothers (and fathers) everywhere.
The local nursery school won't let the children make a mother's day present because some of the children have more than one mother! (stepmothers, etc., or mother is grandmother).

Oh, for fuck's sake.

341 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:11:48pm
342 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:11:57pm
343 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:12:03pm

re: #340 MandyManners

Oh, for fuck's sake.

I know. Indeed.

344 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:12:21pm

re: #303 Pater Coop

What is your definition of "evidence"?

Short answer: PROOF.

Long answer: Evidence is something that can be measured by the five senses: sight, sound, touch, taste, smell. Something that furnishes proof.

345 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:13:16pm

re: #343 katemaclaren

I know. Indeed.

You just made me laugh out loud! Thanks Mandy and a very good night to you!

346 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:14:20pm

re: #326 ploome hineni

yes, most of my cars have been floor shifts

even my first MBZ was a vintage 4 on the floor

I have been driving automatics for about 15 years now

automatics are a bore. aren't they? when i'm driving my jeep i keep reaching for the shift on my favorite beat up diesel toyota truck.

347 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:14:23pm

re: #345 katemaclaren

You just made me laugh out loud! Thanks Mandy and a very good night to you!


Sweetdreams katemaclaren!:)

348 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:14:28pm

For anyone out there who's interested in the crypto-criminal enterprise known as Scientology: Operation Clambake: [Link: www.xenu.net...]

349 X-ray  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:14:42pm

My 2 cents.

Any argument that is based on a feeling or faith is only an argument too be lost.

Evolution has its gaps as does creationism. It then becomes the feeling we argue about.

The gaps are the points of the argument but it is the feelings on both sides that lose the argument.

ar·gu·ment (ärgy-mnt)
n.
1.
a. A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate.
b. A quarrel; a dispute.
c. Archaic A reason or matter for dispute or contention: "sheath'd their swords for lack of argument" Shakespeare.
2.
a. A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood: presented a careful argument for extraterrestrial life.
b. A fact or statement put forth as proof or evidence; a reason: The current low mortgage rates are an argument for buying a house now.
c. A set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others.

350 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:15:42pm

re: #340 MandyManners

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Oh, dear, hit the wrong button. This is what made me laugh out loud--and now, embarrassed (hanging head) I will back out of the salon.

351 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:15:45pm

re: #346 nyc redneck

352 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:16:31pm

re: #324 katemaclaren

I liked your comment. It was very clever. And indeed, Nietzsche died quite mad. Dante's comment is also quite good.

I just saw an opportunity to get up on one of my favorite soapboxes and took it.

Nietzsche's parable seems prophetic now, looking at the state of Christianity in Europe. The empty churches and cathedrals seem to ring and echo heavily with the madman's requiem aeternam deo.

353 Naso Tang  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:17:02pm

re: #309 song_and_dance_man

Sure.

And this is for further reading for proponents of Evolution.

Panspermia

The reality around us and our being in it is a wonderful thing and we should be proud of its design or chance since we are here talking about it.

Not wanting to start something tonight, but your link says, among other things:

Panspermia per se does not remove the need for life to originate somewhere, but does extend the time frame and environments available. Similarly, it does not necessarily suggest that life originated only once and subsequently spread through the entire Universe, but instead that once started it may be able to spread to other environments suitable for replication.

I'm not sure what you think this has to do with evolution? This references only a conceivable start at a particular location, and does not even say anything about original start (creation), just like evolution doesn't.

354 Truck Monkey  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:17:04pm

re: #301 MandyManners

Oh, the steaminess of it all! And, those itsy-bitsy onions!

White Castle sliders. Better eaten while raging drunk!

355 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:17:06pm

re: #334 ploome hineni

this is what the NSU looked like

[Link: farm4.static.flickr.com...]

no heater, may have had a radio.....do not rmemeber

my Father paid less than 500$ for it

how cute is that car! adorable. and what a great photo. love the red umbrella on the right side.

356 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:17:26pm

re: #351 beachkatie
you ARE A COOL LADY!:)

357 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:17:57pm
358 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:18:28pm

re: #356 beachkatie
nYC REDNECK!:)

359 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:18:38pm

re: #333 Sharmuta

In these debates it's easy for us all to get confused.
I think scientology is wrong (in all senses), but I don't think it should be outlawed.
Two different questions.

I think Intelligent Design theories are interesting and seriously worth philosophical discussion, but I do not think they should be broached in a science class.
Two different questions.

The Discovery Institute has a naughty plan (IMO), but that does not mean that every idea they have ever espoused....most of which are entirely unoriginal to them... is stupid or wicked. It doesn't even necessarily mean their whole kit and kaboodle of ideas is wrong.
Two different questions.

Answering argument on the substance of ideas by pointing to the plans of the Discovery Institute is what used to be called the genetic fallacy.

360 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:18:56pm

re: #351 beachkatie

{beachkatie} hey sweet thing.

361 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:19:49pm
362 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:20:26pm
363 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:20:39pm

re: #358 beachkatie

i was afraid you were outta here the other night. glad to see you didn't go. :D

364 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:20:47pm

re: #291 Sharmuta

Oooh, nice twist. +1

/The fact that it reads like a strategic plan of attack should be bothersome to all, yet somehow it isn't

365 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:21:32pm

re: #342 beachkatie

You're back!

366 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:21:55pm

re: #360 nyc redneck
HAVE A GREAT DAY TOMORROW!

367 yochanan  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:22:28pm

re: #315 goddessoftheclassroom

i don't believe in debating religion one way or the other. to me it is very personal.

368 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:23:41pm

re: #343 katemaclaren

I know. Indeed.

It just hit me that the reason might be financial. The Kid gives gifts to both me and my mom. But, it's a private school so they have a bigger budget than public schools.

369 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:24:07pm

re: #275 Ning the Merciless

These are good, thanks for the link. LOL!

370 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:24:12pm

re: #345 katemaclaren

Don't let the bed-bugs bite!

371 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:24:53pm

re: #365 MandyManners

You're back!

I had a little to much to drink the other night! I got upset way to easy!Sorry! I said a bad thing to Charles too.... my bad!

372 4wheel  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:25:02pm

"Creators need creators too".

Nah. If they're THE creator, they're beyond our minuscule comprehension. Men believe themselves gods, and therefore do not understand the concept of faith.

373 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:26:19pm

re: #359 wolfie

Mmm- I'm not trying to say that, not in the slightest.

What I am trying to do is enlighten people. I have a serious problem with any organization that wants to usurp my Constitutional rights.

374 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:26:24pm

Hey good evening y'all! First let me wish a happy day tomorrow for all LGF mothers!
Uh, no - wait that didn't come out right - let me wish a Happy Mother's Day to all LGF Mom's and grandmom's (and if we have any, great-great grandmoms) tomorrow!

Secondly, what have I missed?!

375 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:26:33pm
376 yochanan  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:27:04pm

to all you lizardettes HAPPY MOTHERS DAY.

377 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:27:27pm

re: #352 Syrah

I liked your comment. It was very clever. And indeed, Nietzsche died quite mad. Dante's comment is also quite good.

I just saw an opportunity to get up on one of my favorite soapboxes and took it.

Nietzsche's parable seems prophetic now, looking at the state of Christianity in Europe. The empty churches and cathedrals seem to ring and echo heavily with the madman's requiem aeternam deo.

So true. Europeans seem to have lost their souls. I lived in Italy, Germany and England for a few years, and it feels very odd to see only a few old people headed for mass. There is also a sense of ennui that even materialism can't assuage.
My dad (WWII vet who I never saw attend church, pray or show the slightest sign that he was religious) liked to say there were no atheists in foxholes, so maybe things are a little too comfy there, who knows? I'll paraphrase the atheist's dying prayer (my dad's words) "God (if there is a God), save my soul (if I have a soul)."

378 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:27:37pm

re: #362 song_and_dance_man

Yes, I object to it. Yet I can see where this might lead with the obvious answers and rebuttals, so let me say this. Abraham didn't find his faith because proselytizers calculated their outreach. It was one on one from his Friend and that was enough for him and that should be enough for us.

Guess what- that's not an islamic document. I altered it. Thank you for reading it- you'll recognize it when you get back to the links you didn't want to read tonight.

379 itellu3times  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:28:24pm

re: #256 tripletdad

...but Creation (i.e. the physical Universe) does not need a Creator, nor does it indicate their actually IS a Creator.

/is that what he's saying?

What who, me? I'm not saying much of anything, just that if you're talking Creator with a capital C, tradition has it that that is the First Cause, and if you like, He created Himself.

The problem is pretty much the same whether you ask about the Big Bang or the Big Banger, and I don't know the answer to either one.

380 phoenixgirl  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:28:59pm

re: #367 yochanan

{yoch} where ya been?

381 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:29:13pm

re: #376 yochanan

to all you lizardettes HAPPY MOTHERS DAY.


Thanks sweetie!:)

382 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:30:15pm
383 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:30:26pm

re: #371 beachkatie

I had a little to much to drink the other night! I got upset way to easy!Sorry! I said a bad thing to Charles too.... my bad!

i don't remember you saying anything bad. i just remember you saying you were leaving. (and i'm glad you didn't.)

384 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:30:45pm

. re: #354 Truck Monkey

White Castle sliders. Better eaten while raging drunk!

The only kind of "sliders" that I remember are the raw oysters in Tabasco sauce served in a bar at Point Defiance Park south of Seattle. I got lit there once when hanging out with some Airborne Rangers buds.

They made sure that the staff gave me the biggest oyster. I grabbed that puppy, held it up, sucked off the sauce, bit it in half, chewed it up and swallowed.

I came back on one dude that night with a reference to Phillip Roth that brought down the house.

Good times.

385 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:31:32pm

re: #371 beachkatie

I had a little to much to drink the other night! I got upset way to easy!Sorry! I said a bad thing to Charles too.... my bad!

Shit-faced happens!

386 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:31:41pm

re: #368 MandyManners

It just hit me that the reason might be financial. The Kid gives gifts to both me and my mom. But, it's a private school so they have a bigger budget than public schools.

Well, in this case, they would have been MAKING things (handprints in plaster, for example). This is what they did last year.

387 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:32:35pm

re: #385 MandyManners

Shit-faced happens!

clinton happens (or used to)

388 Steve  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:33:15pm

Several years ago I went to a discussion of ID at the University of Portland that was given by the original author of ID. If memory serves me correctly he said that he was either agnostic or athiest and nowhere in his speech did he say that God was the intellegent designer and even went out of his way to say that religion had nothing to do with his idea of ID.

389 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:33:16pm

re: #381 beachkatie Hi ya beachkatie - hope you have a great day tomorrow!
How are you doing today/tonight?

390 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:33:20pm

re: #383 nyc redneck

i don't remember you saying anything bad. i just remember you saying you were leaving. (and i'm glad you didn't.)

I love you guys , i could never really leave ya!:)Even though some are very weird!

391 lostlakehiker  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:34:02pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Just posted in the spinoffs: Cardinal Murphy O'Connor claim Hitler and Stalin were guided by Reason

The Disco Institute talking points are gaining traction.

The good cardinal has a point of sorts. Human reason is boundedly rational. We can't see all the way to the end of the branching tree, even at chess, where all the cards are on the table and everything is in principle known.

People who consider themselves above the traditional restraints and laws don't understand that it's not mere tradition. Leaving aside all matters of faith, it's at a minimum the distilled experience of more than 3 millennia.

At chess, the guy who thinks he knows it all and won't even look at a book of openings or a study of tricky endgames is a guy whose native talent is going to take him to a place a couple hundred rating points below where talent plus accessing the chess world's archive of wisdom would take him. It is, in short, a departure from reason to imagine that one can be guided by reason alone, without reference to the distilled experience of hundreds of generations that have gone before.

392 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:34:16pm
#322 MandyManners 5/10/08 8:05:30 pm
re: #316 wolfie
The Catholic Church does not have obligatory charges for spiritual services. Scientology does. In my view, Scientology should be allowed to operate as any other profit-making business.

Indulgences? Paying to light a candle? Paying to have your marriage annulled?

The Orthodox church has no fees for spiritual services. If you experience otherwise, tell the presiding hierarch and he will straighten things out. Oh, and candles do cost money. However if you wish to light a candle without paying, only God will know at my church.

The first cause, big bang or whatever always answers my prayers above and beyond anything I could hope or imagine. Must be just coincidence.

393 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:35:13pm

re: #373 Sharmuta

Mmm- I'm not trying to say that, not in the slightest.

What I am trying to do is enlighten people. I have a serious problem with any organization that wants to usurp my Constitutional rights.

I have a serious problem with that, too, and I don't mean to fuss at you too much for it. After all, I have to admit this is a good opportunity to bring the subject up!

It's just that it has seemed to me that you have been answering substantive arguments with genetic ones far too often.
But like I said, if the Disco plan is what is really heavy on your mind, I can see how that could happen. The abundance of information you've given about the plan is, in any case, very helpful. (IMO)

394 Naso Tang  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:35:21pm

re: #375 song_and_dance_man

Bingo

Well, I can agree with the sentiment in your last sentence:

The reality around us and our being in it is a wonderful thing and we should be proud of its design or chance since we are here talking about it.

But as I said, I was puzzled what you thought was relevant to evolution - ists in particular.

Anyway, just to prove I didn't mean to start anything this late, I'm off. Happy Mothers Day to your mother too. :)

395 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:35:22pm

re: #389 realwest

Hi ya beachkatie - hope you have a great day tomorrow!
How are you doing today/tonight?


Hey realwest I'm doing fine how are you doing bud?:O

396 jaunte  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:35:43pm

re: #388 Steve

Was it Philip Johnson?

397 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:36:07pm

re: #374 realwest

re: #376 yochanan

Thank you .....from all Lizard-moms!

398 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:36:48pm

re: #390 beachkatie

I love you guys , i could never really leave ya!:)Even though some are very weird!

You did say something funny about leaving, but I'm glad you didn't.
Well, wherever everyone is, good night for real this time. I'm on EST and want to finish reading a great book about Steve Jobs before morning.

399 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:37:23pm
400 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:37:52pm

re: #374 realwest

thanks for the mother's day wish. do you have something planned tomorrow for your mom?

401 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:38:28pm

re: #398 katemaclaren

You did say something funny about leaving, but I'm glad you didn't.
Well, wherever everyone is, good night for real this time. I'm on EST and want to finish reading a great book about Steve Jobs before morning.

Good nite kate have a great day tomorrow!

Sweetdreams to ya!

402 Steve  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:38:31pm

re: #396 jaunte

No it was Michael Behe I believe. 90% sure of this.

403 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:38:31pm

re: #377 katemaclaren

I love that prayer you quoted!
I also love the prayer of St. Augustine: "Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief."
Others may prefer another one of his: "Lord, make me chaste.....Tomorrow."

404 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:38:47pm

re: #395 {beachkatie} I'm doing just fine tonight, thank you kindly!
We are, however, supposedly in for a BAD weather day tomorrow - thunderstorms, tornados and all the rest of what we've gone through the last week or so.
So I hope you have a great Mother's Day in spite of the weather!

405 Dan G.  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:39:15pm

re: #215 DesertSage

If you believe in something based on theory, not on fact...then your belief system is faith based. Period.

Theories are an assembly of facts, still in the realm of reason and NOT faith. Try again.

In Re: the unofficial poll: unabashed atheist.

407 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:39:48pm

re: #397 wolfie Well all the Lizards Moms are surely welcome!
Got any plans for tomorrow?

408 Steve  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:39:57pm

Video clip of Micheal Behe.

409 abolitionist  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:40:31pm

re: #378 Sharmuta

Guess what- that's not an islamic document. I altered it. Thank you for reading it- you'll recognize it when you get back to the links you didn't want to read tonight.

I see. This line gives it away:

This combination of islamic and scholarly expertise and media and political connections makes the Wedge unique, and also prevents it from being "merely academic."

410 Syrah  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:40:33pm

re: #377 katemaclaren
re: #377 katemaclaren

Wealth and comfort may be the most potent difficult challenges there are to a person's faith.

411 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:40:54pm

re: #386 katemaclaren

Well, in this case, they would have been MAKING things (handprints in plaster, for example). This is what they did last year.

That's just sad. Very, very sad.

However, did it take a lot of extra time and bucks?

412 Ojoe  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:41:16pm
...“There must be something greater, so there must be a ...Creator, but
Creators need creators too; it’s turtles all the way."...

Actually no, the Creator is the Uncaused Cause.

St Thomas Aquinas explains this in the Summa Theologica.

413 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:41:24pm

re: #387 nyc redneck

clinton happens (or used to)

I'd rather a Clinton happen than an Obama.

414 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:41:39pm

re: #400 nyc redneck Yes indeed I do! First of course a very lovely card.
Then the flowers and gifts I already bought her. Then I'm making dinner, after which I imagine we'll have a wonderful trip to the ER! LOL!

415 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:42:19pm

re: #392 David IV of Georgia

The Orthodox church has no fees for spiritual services. If you experience otherwise, tell the presiding hierarch and he will straighten things out. Oh, and candles do cost money. However if you wish to light a candle without paying, only God will know at my church.

The first cause, big bang or whatever always answers my prayers above and beyond anything I could hope or imagine. Must be just coincidence.

God made the Big Bang! In fact, God IS the Big Bang!

416 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:42:42pm

re: #406 MandyManners
Hi Mandy - why is it that all of the foods that taste the best (or almost all) all seem to cause cancer?!

418 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:42:57pm

re: #410 Syrah

re: #377 katemaclaren

Wealth and comfort may be the most potent difficult challenges there are to a person's faith.

that's very interesting considering i'm very intrigued by a vow of poverty and i'm not exactly what you would call religious.

419 trailortrash  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:43:00pm

very nice :)

420 katemaclaren  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:43:02pm

Oh forgive me. I forgot to wish everyone a "Haffy Creator's Day" tomorrow ("haffy" because the other half, of course, belongs to your DADs...and we don't celebrate the other creator's day until June!)

421 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:43:24pm

re: #399 song_and_dance_man

I did that because I think it's intellectually dishonest to have a problem with one theistic agenda threatening our Constitution, but not another because we may agree with the tenants of one more than another.

422 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:43:48pm

re: #413 MandyManners

I'd rather a Clinton happen than an Obama.

LOL, of course, i would too.

423 Steve  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:44:21pm

Another clip from Michael Behe.

424 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:44:28pm

re: #412 Ojoe

Actually no, the Creator is the Uncaused Cause.

St Thomas Aquinas explains this in the Summa Theologica.

Ojoe I love YOU! :)

425 Shay4l  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:44:40pm

OK the turtles thing I think I understand. The oysters, I'm not exactly sure about....

426 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:44:53pm
427 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:45:19pm

I have pie. and ice cream.

not sharing.

428 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:45:22pm

re: #413 MandyManners
Amen and I NEVER thought I'd hear myself say that Clinton would make a better POTUS than anyone else.
Geez what a choice we will have in November.

429 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:45:29pm

re: #416 realwest

Hi Mandy - why is it that all of the foods that taste the best (or almost all) all seem to cause cancer?!

Control over your life.

430 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:45:32pm

re: #414 realwest

Yes indeed I do! First of course a very lovely card.
Then the flowers and gifts I already bought her. Then I'm making dinner, after which I imagine we'll have a wonderful trip to the ER! LOL!

LOL, i hope not. (that was funny)

431 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:45:53pm

re: #417 beachkatie

I glad i quit smoking 8 months ago! a life time to me!:)

Good going!

432 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:45:57pm

re: #407 realwest

Well all the Lizards Moms are surely welcome!
Got any plans for tomorrow?

My kids are making a "banquet!" I'm not entirely sure what that means.....except I have to leave the house or take a nap or hide in a closet for a few hours beforehand!

433 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:46:27pm

re: #420 katemaclaren

Oh forgive me. I forgot to wish everyone a "Haffy Creator's Day" tomorrow ("haffy" because the other half, of course, belongs to your DADs...and we don't celebrate the other creator's day until June!)

LOL!

434 akarra  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:46:56pm

It's a nice poem, but as much as I fight with Christian fundamentalists, this is their country too. And a lot of them are fighting to defend it, and it is notable how evangelical in spirit a lot of atheists and "Darwinian fundamentalists" (Stephen Jay Gould's term for Daniel Dennett) can be, and how many other myths they're willing to do away with (including, perhaps: "All men are created equal" - the Progressive obsession with equality right now is code for moral libertarianism funded by the gov't. Not quite the same thing).

Rationality is a tricky thing. It isn't true that asking for empirical confirmation of a hypothesis is merely a form of belief. But contra the poem, it probably is true that atheism is a form of belief, given that most atheists can't accept any evidence that there may be a God.

That's the deeper psychological insight underlying Anselm's ontological proof: If you conceive of the greatest thing possible, it exists in the deepest sense. So let's say there is no God - what do people who hold there is no God worship? With Richard Dawkins, his own ego. I don't need to go to Christian fundamentalists to find solid argumentation against The Selfish Gene.

I'm not for ID, not one bit. And I'm actually arguing with a fundamentalist right now in another thread over how literal the Bible should be taken. But the implication that rationality entails atheism has to be defeated at all costs. It simply isn't true, and our political institutions can't hold up unless people have some sense of respect for another, a sense of respect that doesn't allow us to see each other as merely useful, but maybe as part and parcel of the divine. A good friend who is also against ID noted that what struck him most about "Expelled" was how harshly the fundamentalists were being treated. I know that's the tip of the iceberg in an age that wants to proclaim itself more rational.

435 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:47:37pm

re: #428 realwest

Amen and I NEVER thought I'd hear myself say that Clinton would make a better POTUS than anyone else.
Geez what a choice we will have in November.

I can't believe you said that!

436 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:47:53pm

re: #422 nyc redneck

LOL, of course, i would too.

For some reason, my co-workers now come to me to talk about politicss and Islam.

Heh.

437 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:47:59pm

re: #417 {beachkatie} Braggart!

438 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:48:15pm

re: #434 akarra

It's a nice poem, but as much as I fight with Christian fundamentalists, this is their country too. And a lot of them are fighting to defend it, and it is notable how evangelical in spirit a lot of atheists and "Darwinian fundamentalists" (Stephen Jay Gould's term for Daniel Dennett) can be, and how many other myths they're willing to do away with (including, perhaps: "All men are created equal" - the Progressive obsession with equality right now is code for moral libertarianism funded by the gov't. Not quite the same thing).

Rationality is a tricky thing. It isn't true that asking for empirical confirmation of a hypothesis is merely a form of belief. But contra the poem, it probably is true that atheism is a form of belief, given that most atheists can't accept any evidence that there may be a God.

That's the deeper psychological insight underlying Anselm's ontological proof: If you conceive of the greatest thing possible, it exists in the deepest sense. So let's say there is no God - what do people who hold there is no God worship? With Richard Dawkins, his own ego. I don't need to go to Christian fundamentalists to find solid argumentation against The Selfish Gene.

I'm not for ID, not one bit. And I'm actually arguing with a fundamentalist right now in another thread over how literal the Bible should be taken. But the implication that rationality entails atheism has to be defeated at all costs. It simply isn't true, and our political institutions can't hold up unless people have some sense of respect for another, a sense of respect that doesn't allow us to see each other as merely useful, but maybe as part and parcel of the divine. A good friend who is also against ID noted that what struck him most about "Expelled" was how harshly the fundamentalists were being treated. I know that's the tip of the iceberg in an age that wants to proclaim itself more rational.

Welcome, hatchling. I hadn't noticed the gates were open.

439 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:48:30pm

re: #27 Gagdad Bob

Leave it to a middlebrow atheist to drain poetry of its transcendent content, and therefore, the sufficient reason for its existence. A poem this bad may well prove Darwin right, as Koko could have written it.

I meant to say this earlier, but got lost in more engaging conversation: Boo dude. Booooo! -1

440 Ojoe  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:48:33pm

re: #424 beachkatie

Well Ok, thanks, gee,

just doing my best here

441 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:48:42pm

re: #427 Racer X

I have pie. and ice cream.

not sharing.

Screw your pie and ice cream.

I have Basil.

442 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:48:47pm

re: #431 MandyManners

Good going!


Thank you!

443 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:49:25pm

re: #399 song_and_dance_man

I think her point is that we would find the exact same document very offensive if it were issued by CAIR rather than the DI.

444 MandyManners  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:49:48pm

re: #428 realwest

Amen and I NEVER thought I'd hear myself say that Clinton would make a better POTUS than anyone else.
Geez what a choice we will have in November.

Just wait until Denver.

445 NY Nana  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:50:08pm

re: #387 nyc redneck

clinton happens (or used to)

/Look up the definition of 'shit'...bet it says 'Clintons'.

And if it doesn't? It should!

446 friarstale  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:50:16pm

Candide, Chapter 11
The Old Woman's Story
[Link: cruxy.com...]

447 Opilio  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:50:48pm

re: #434 akarra

And I'm actually arguing with a fundamentalist right now in another thread over how literal the Bible should be taken.

Must be a thread at a different blog, cuz you've only made 1 post here.

448 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:50:51pm

re: #436 MandyManners

For some reason, my co-workers now come to me to talk about politicss and Islam.

Heh.

of course they do. look how much we learn here. you're an expert. keep passing it on.

449 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:50:57pm

re: #430 nyc redneck
Thankew, thankew, thankew! It was intended to be; when I put my mind to it, I'm actually a pretty fair cook (though mostly Italian food and I'm a WASP! Go figgah!)!

450 Racer X  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:51:31pm

re: #441 MandyManners

Screw your pie and ice cream.

I have Basil.

Basil? Who is that?

451 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:52:10pm

re: #432 wolfie Go for the nap! Naps are severely underrated!

452 beachkatie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:52:21pm

re: #437 realwest

Braggart!


Hey real west, I put on weigh during this time period, with exercise! The doc said it is normal!

453 OldLineTexan  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:53:11pm

re: #450 Racer X

Basil? Who is that?

Basil Hayden, and you'll note she made no mention of sharing.

/bourbon whiskey

454 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:53:25pm
455 realwest  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:54:06pm

re: #435 beachkatie Why not? I DO think she would be a better president than Obama. Waaay better.

456 wolfie  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:54:19pm

I just wanted to put this in again. (Yes, I know I'm a day or two late, but I couldn't find the dang thing until today.)

re: #151 wolfie

Another poem appropriate for this last week,
having celebrated the 60th anniversary if the State of Israel,
and having seen too many twist and abuse the commemoration,
for the love or appeasement of her enemies................

Light of Israel

When Israel ,of the Lord beloved,
Out from the land of bondage came,
Her fathers' God before her moved,
An awful guide in smoke and flame.

By day, along the astonished lands
The cloudy pillar glided slow;
By night, Arabia's crimsoned sands
Returned the fiery column's glow.

There rose the choral hymn of praise,
And trump and timbrel answered keen,
And Zion's daughters poured their lays,
With priest's and warrior's voice between.

No portents now our foes amaze,
Forsaken Israel wanders lone;
Our fathers would not know Thy ways,
And Thou hast left them to their own.

But present still, though now unseen!
When brightly shines the prosperous day,
Be thoughts of Thee a cloudy screen
To temper the deceitful ray.

And oh, when stoops on Judah's path
In shade and storm the frequent night,
Be Thou long-suffering, slow to wrath,
A burning and a shining light!

Our harps we left by Babel's streams,
The tyrant's jest, the Gentile's scorn;
No censer round our altar beams,
And mute are timbrel, harp, and horn.

But Thou hast said The blood of goat,
The flesh of rams I will not prize;
A contrite heart, a humble thought,
Are Mine accepted sacrifice.

Sir Walter Scott, ca. 1820

457 Sharmuta  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:54:25pm

re: #393 wolfie

I don't want to get into the God vs. non-God argument because, for starters, that plays into the DI's strategy. Second- it's a personal issue for everyone, and it's not likely to change any minds. I've been researching the DI the last few days and an still working on the Darwin. Other than some psychology and astronomy- I'm not well versed in science, but I am trying to learn.

Having previously been called ignorant, I'm not willing to speak about that which I'm not well versed enough in until I rectify my lack of knowledge. In the meantime, I see the wedge strategy as problematic, and I feel comfortable speaking out against it because the Constitution is a subject in which I am very well versed.

458 nyc redneck  Sat, May 10, 2008 8:54:27pm