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Friday Night Science Thread

Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 7:44:16 pm PDT

Ben Stein’s contention that Darwinian evolution led directly to the Nazi Holocaust is destroyed by genetic science.

The theory of Scandinavian racial purity cherished by Hitler and the Nazis has been rubbished by new scientific research.

The study found that bodies from 2000-year-old burial sites in eastern Denmark contained “as much genetic variation in their remains as one would expect to find in individuals of the present day”.

The findings, in an analysis by the University of Copenhagen which has just been published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, explodes the Nazis’ much cherished concept of a ‘superior’ Nordic race.

Hitler used pseudo-scientific research to back up claims that northern Europeans could form a Master Race which would lead mankind, and even set up a breeding program between Germans and Norwegians to foster it.

The racist theory, which placed the Master Race at the top of mankind’s hierarchy and Jews at the bottom, played a central role in the Holocaust. But according to the new research, the “concept of a single Scandinavian genetic type, a Scandinavian race that wandered to Denmark, settled there, and otherwise lived in complete isolation from the rest of the world, is a fallacy”.

Far from being isolated and ‘genetically pure’, the study on the burial sites found that Danes mixed with peoples from across the globe.

“It becomes clear that the Danes must have been in contact with other peoples,” said scientist Linea Melchior, who analysed DNA from the Bøgebjerggard and Skovgaarde sites.

(Hat tip: Josephine.)

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1415 comments

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1 paint-right  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:46:59pm

I'm Danish.

2 The Albatross  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:47:28pm

Far and away too tired to bother with this one. Knock yourselves out lizards... I bid you adeiu.

3 paint-right  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:47:46pm

Plus some other stuff that my people were in contact with.

4 SpartanWoman  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:47:48pm

Why am I not shocked that the nazis were wrong about that too?

'Night oh Great Lizard

5 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:47:59pm

Hitler- now more wrong then ever.

6 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:48:28pm

A man has free choice to the extent that he is rational.

-Aquinas

7 JeremyR  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:48:30pm

Will there be a test?

8 newsjunkie_ky  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:48:40pm

But hitler believed it to be true.

9 The Albatross  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:48:43pm

re: #1 paint-right

So am I. I'll read up later. Like in the morning instead of coming off of a 14 hour day.

10 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:49:24pm
(Hat tip: Killgore.)


Are you sure about that? I don't recall linking to that article but I do drink a bit. Fact check anyone?

11 George Slivers  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:49:48pm

This post has about as much reasoning supporting it as a Keith Olbermann post. Ben Stein's movie showed that the philosophical underpinnings of Darwinism were used to justify the holocost. It would be nice if you fundamentalist could stop attacking your creationist base.

12 hermeneutics  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:50:09pm

This is fun news, but old news. One of my fav, must-read blogs is "Gene Expression." Back in 2006 gnxp had an article on "Finnetics" or the genetic diversity among Finns (one of the most homogenous groups in Europe, supposedly.) Quite interesting.

Here's their summary:

Overall, this paper reinforces the idea that Finns are distinct from the peoples of Western Europe, seeing as they have little evidence of R1b, but that they share considerable continuity with other Scandinavians, as well as peoples to the East (Slavs). One issue that I think needs to be addressed is that the mental model people have in regards to the genesis of the Finns is often of a group of Siberian tribes hurtling through "Slav space" and settling amongst a bunch of Scandinavians and slowly admixing. I think it is easy for people to imagine "clumps" of populations in a larger distinct matrix, and then model the mixture of clumps resulting in the peoples we see around us. I suspect that the reality is that many of the genetic gradients are the result of more prosaic deme-to-deme mate exchange and movement over time. Large migrations might have played a role, but the introgression of M17 into Finland (if it wasn't indigenous to Finland in the first place) need not be explained by a few movements of Slavic tribes, rather, it might have been due to the long term residence of Slavs along the southern edge of the Finnish world and the inevitable bleeding over of marriage networks.

See: [Link: www.gnxp.com...]

13 nyc redneck  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:50:11pm

odd how hitler stood before huge crowds extolling the virtues of the tall blond aryan race and he was such a short little dark swarthy creep.

14 beachkatie  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:50:15pm

I'ma southern women, i don't count! :0

15 newsjunkie_ky  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:50:18pm

The headline is misleading.

16 solomonpanting  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:50:18pm

Wouldn't this article destroy Hitler's contention of a master race rather than Stein's contention of the racist theory Hitler used againt the Jews and others?

17 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:50:40pm

Here we go.

VegasRick. Got an over/under on the number of posts?

18 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:51:04pm

We have some of that light skin, blonde hair and light eyes - and it stinks. Mr. DT has had several bouts of skin cancer.

And the children often get burned if they are not religious about sunscrean.

My raven haired daughter, had ivory skin and blue eyes - not much help.

What a pain.

19 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:51:07pm

Her Hitler laid claim to the title "Aryan" for his blond fair supermen

Aryan is an English word derived from the Sanskrit "Ārya" meaning "noble" or "honorable".[1][2] The Avestan cognate is "Airya" and the Old Persian equivalent is "Ariya". It is widely held to have been used as an ethnic self-designation of the Proto-Indo-Iranians[citation needed]. Since, in the 19th century, the Indo-Iranians were the most ancient known speakers of Indo-European languages, the word Aryan was adopted to refer not only to the Indo-Iranian people, but also to Indo-European speakers as a whole

Aryan, are in fact rather swarthy.

20 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:51:26pm
Ben Stein’s contention that Darwinian evolution led directly to the Nazi Holocaust is destroyed by genetic science.

While I think that Ben Stein was way, way off base with his argument, I also have to say that your argument here, Charles, is something of a non sequitur.

Stein's claim is that Hitler & Co. believed that Darwinian science led inevitably to their program. I think Stein is wrong, but genetic findings in the year 2008 bear no relevance to the argument.

21 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:51:26pm

re: #13 nyc redneck

odd how hitler stood before huge crowds extolling the virtues of the tall blond aryan race and he was such a short little dark swarthy creep.

And he wasn't even German...

...although since he spoke German, he was considered part of the "volk" and allowed into the club.

22 newsjunkie_ky  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:51:40pm

re: #16 solomonpanting

YES.

23 paint-right  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:51:47pm

I'm not getting the logic of this , however.

The Nazis were woefully wrong, but had no proof to the contrary as DNA etc hadn't been invented yet, so they wishfully hoped they were of some mythic super race.

24 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:52:37pm

re: #13 nyc redneck

odd how hitler stood before huge crowds extolling the virtues of the tall blond aryan race and he was such a short little dark swarthy creep.

a particular stinky kind of swarthy...with no offense to Stinky B.

25 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:52:41pm

Sorry, Josephine. Too many windows open. Hat tip now corrected.

26 SpartanWoman  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:52:45pm

re: #21 brainwizard73

And he wasn't even German...

...although since he spoke German, he was considered part of the "volk" and allowed into the club.

Many of those he murdered spoke German too.

27 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:53:02pm

My prediction:

There is more behind this thread than meets the eye.

28 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:53:25pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

I think I posted that this morn, not to worry, someone else probably posted it sooner. If not, then someone else would have - the reptilian blogmind knows all and sees all.

29 beachkatie  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:53:40pm

re: #18 DistantThunderOh my! :0

30 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:54:04pm

re: #19 jcm

Her Hitler laid claim to the title "Aryan" for his blond fair supermen

Aryan, are in fact rather swarthy.

My son's girlfriend is named Aryan. We were a little shocked. But hse is tall and dark haired - very intelligent - birth father in prison - step-father an Emergency Room doctor.

I'm afraid to ask.......

31 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:54:23pm

re: #27 brainwizard73

My prediction:

There is more behind this thread than meets the eye.

32 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:54:38pm

re: #11 George Slivers

Not another one!

33 Annar  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:54:48pm

re: #15 newsjunkie_ky

The headline is misleading.

I agree.

34 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:54:57pm

The point is that Darwinian evolution did not lead to the Third Reich.

A distortion of Darwinian evolution did. And it's now debunked by the same science that Ben Stein attacks.

35 stickdude  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:55:10pm

re: #16 solomonpanting

Wouldn't this article destroy Hitler's contention of a master race rather than Stein's contention of the racist theory Hitler used againt the Jews and others?


That was my first question, as I didn't even see Ben mentioned anywhere in the article.

36 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:55:17pm

re: #27 brainwizard73

My prediction:

There is more behind this thread than meets the eye.

I can see it now.

37 battletop2  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:55:35pm

RE #16 Solomonpanting

You got it right. The title is a non-sequitor.

38 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:55:40pm

re: #11 George Slivers


Is the holocost the cost of a holograph or what George?

39 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:56:03pm

re: #12 hermeneutics

A prof of mine used to, in complete disgust, say, "There's no such thing as race. There's language groups, and that's about it."

40 researchok  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:56:21pm

The Holocaust wasn't only about science (faulty or otherwise).
The racialism was very much a culturally cultivated and crafted phenomena and that in turn served to 'fuel' National Socialism.

When it it is all said and done, the Nazi tyranny was not dependent on science, good, bad or indifferent, for it's validation.

They just wanted to make their racist ideology (and thus the validation of their 'superiority') predicated on a 'scientific' basis.

For the Nazis, Darwin and 'science' were tools to be used to further their particular political agenda, so in that sense Stein was right, even if the real science is faulty.

This is not unlike 'science' or ideologies of Al Gore, et al. They care little about the science- it's all about the ideology.

41 Ojoe  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:56:27pm

What does DNA have to do with the Holocaust?

It was a moral failing on the part of the perpetrators.

Anybody can be good or bad.

42 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:56:58pm

McCain talked about tidal energy and wind energy - and I thought - boy, someone has got his ear - and everything else just bounces off.

43 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:57:15pm

re: #26 SpartanWoman

Many of those he murdered spoke German too.

Right. As a descendant of German-speaking Poles (actually old Prussians on the east side of the Oder) I never could understand that point. If German culture and language makes someone German...why wouldn't that cover for some other issues that even a whack-job like Hitler had? Then again, he murdered a lot of people that stood in his way, and there were a lot of Germans that did try to resist.

Best not to think on this too much, though. Kind of grim stuff for a Friday night when I should be learning about Michelle (the Shrew)Obama's waffle recipes.

44 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:57:30pm

re: #41 Ojoe

What does DNA have to do with the Holocaust?

It was a moral failing on the part of the perpetrators.

Anybody can be good or bad.

Exactly. The science of DNA had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

45 Ojoe  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:57:52pm
46 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:58:36pm

It's a good day to be alive.

These are the Golden Years.

Breathe deeply.

47 paint-right  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:58:38pm

Speaking of hoping to belong to some interesting group of people, is there anywhere a site which shows what they have figured out about ancient migrations etc etc. As in discovering genetic links between native Americans and Siberians and Incas and Egyptians and Thor Heyerdal. LOL

What does it cost to get your gene pool analyzed and find out who contributed to your mitochondrial DNA? And who would you trust to do it?

48 cookielady  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:59:10pm

G'night, Lizards.

49 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:59:12pm

YOU DID IT, YOU FINALLY DID IT! YOU BLEW IT UP! AWWW DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

-channelling Battlestar Galactica season finale

50 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:59:17pm

re: #11 George Slivers

This post has about as much reasoning supporting it as a Keith Olbermann post. Ben Stein's movie showed that the philosophical underpinnings of Darwinism were used to justify the holocost. It would be nice if you fundamentalist could stop attacking your creationist base.

It would be more appropriate to say that Hitler used Eugenics to it's extreme to justify the actions. Eugenics is a misapplication of Darwin's theories.

51 Boogberg  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:59:24pm

What do we know about Ben Stein? Do we have the full dossier on this guy yet? Inquiring lizards want to know (this one at least).

52 BGOH  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:59:30pm

"Well, we love hockey, and not many people know where Denmark is. So, we're kind of like the Canada of Europe."

/I'M NOT YOUR BUDDY, GUY!

53 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:59:38pm

Respectfully, to suggest that all people who believe in ID are "creationists" is as intellectually dishonest as saying that all people who believe in reductionistic and nihilistic Darwinism are necessarily nazis. Neither statement is true.

54 Beobachter  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:59:38pm

re: #40 researchok

The Holocaust wasn't only about science (faulty or otherwise).
The racialism was very much a culturally cultivated and crafted phenomena and that in turn served to 'fuel' National Socialism.

When it it is all said and done, the Nazi tyranny was not dependent on science, good, bad or indifferent, for it's validation.

They just wanted to make their racist ideology (and thus the validation of their 'superiority') predicated on a 'scientific' basis.

For the Nazis, Darwin and 'science' were tools to be used to further their particular political agenda, so in that sense Stein was right, even if the real science is faulty.

This is not unlike 'science' or ideologies of Al Gore, et al. They care little about the science- it's all about the ideology.

I like4 he connection that you are making here.

55 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:59:38pm

re: #42 DistantThunder

McCain talked about tidal energy and wind energy - and I thought - boy, someone has got his ear - and everything else just bounces off.

If you look at his policy papers he's nuclear energy first, and oh yeah, a nod at solar, tidal, and wind.

[Link: neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com...]

56 newsjunkie_ky  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 7:59:39pm

Reaching....!

57 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:00:06pm

re: #47 paint-right

Speaking of hoping to belong to some interesting group of people, is there anywhere a site which shows what they have figured out about ancient migrations etc etc. As in discovering genetic links between native Americans and Siberians and Incas and Egyptians and Thor Heyerdal. LOL

What does it cost to get your gene pool analyzed and find out who contributed to your mitochondrial DNA? And who would you trust to do it?

I think that is where they trace your MDNA - mitochondrial DNA

58 jaunte  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:00:09pm

re: #47 paint-right

I put a link in the spinoffs, but I don't know who runs the operation.

59 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:00:24pm

re: #49 Occasional Reader

YOU DID IT, YOU FINALLY DID IT! YOU BLEW IT UP! AWWW DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

-channelling Battlestar Galactica season finale

Isn't that from Planet of the Apes?

60 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:00:50pm

re: #11 George Slivers

This post has about as much reasoning supporting it as a Keith Olbermann post. Ben Stein's movie showed that the philosophical underpinnings of Darwinism were used to justify the holocost. It would be nice if you fundamentalist could stop attacking your creationist base.

No, Ben Stein's movie showed nothing of the sort. It showed an ideologue perverting the Holocaust to promote a dishonest agenda.

62 hermeneutics  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:01:09pm

re: #49 Occasional Reader

YOU DID IT, YOU FINALLY DID IT! YOU BLEW IT UP! AWWW DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

-channelling Battlestar Galactica season finale

I'm laughing at this, but don't know why -- what does this mean?

63 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:01:11pm

re: #41 Ojoe

What does DNA have to do with the Holocaust?

It was a moral failing on the part of the perpetrators.

Anybody can be good or bad.

Precisely, DNA was not know till Watson, Crick and Franklin. Although genetics was know.

64 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:01:16pm

We needed a study for this? Unbelievable.

65 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:01:31pm

re: #55 Thanos

If you look at his policy papers he's nuclear energy first, and oh yeah, a nod at solar, tidal, and wind.

[Link: neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com...]

Problem: it takes like 5 years to build a power plant IF the enviro-nuts will allow it.

66 Muadib  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:01:40pm

re: #27 brainwizard73

My prediction:

There is more behind this thread than meets the eye.

There is more to everything than meets the eye...

67 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:02:07pm

re: #62 hermeneutics

I'm laughing at this, but don't know why -- what does this mean?

It would be a plot spoiler for me to say, for now.

68 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:02:20pm

re: #49 Occasional Reader

YOU DID IT, YOU FINALLY DID IT! YOU BLEW IT UP! AWWW DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

-channelling Battlestar Galactica season finale

No spoilers...
Just start Season 1.
;-P

69 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:02:22pm

re: #11 George Slivers

This post has about as much reasoning supporting it as a Keith Olbermann post. Ben Stein's movie showed that the philosophical underpinnings of Darwinism were used to justify the holocost. It would be nice if you fundamentalist could stop attacking your creationist base.

[in my best Columbo manner]

Maybe you can...uh, explain something to me:

Explain to me exactly where the attack on the "creationist base" was...I'm not seeing it.

70 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:02:31pm

re: #11 George Slivers

It would be nice if you fundamentalist could stop attacking your creationist base.


I have no Creationist base.

71 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:02:33pm

That's cause us scandahoovians are horny bastards. The last 4 generations of my family all had their first child at 16-17. Yes they were all married at the time.

72 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:03:32pm

I think there's been a flagging campaign over at youtube -- some of the "why do people laugh at creationists" vids have been taken down.

73 battletop2  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:03:46pm

re #34 Charles

I am a creationist/intelligent design guy. Science is not bad. Individuals (like algore) who use it erroneously to promote their political agenda, are shameful. Until someone can explain what caused the "big bang" without using (as Stephen Hawking did) an imaginary number (square root of -1) I shall keep an open mind, while rooting for God.

74 Psaturn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:04:17pm

re: #34 Charles

The point is that Darwinian evolution did not lead to the Third Reich.

A distortion of Darwinian evolution did. And it's now debunked by the same science that Ben Stein attacks.

Thanks for your explanation Charles...I was wondering about that.

And about Ben Stein, I do not think he attacked science but rather the politics behind science.

And your statement of DISTORTION of Darwinian evolution led to Third Reich is a very significant statement.

I know that Charles Darwin was not into Eugenics and master race but his cousin and his son, that bore his last name Darwin, did promulgate Eugenics and was leader of the Eugenics Society.

75 hermeneutics  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:04:29pm

re: #71 esch

That's cause us scandahoovians are horny bastards. The last 4 generations of my family all had their first child at 16-17. Yes they were all married at the time.

Hmmm, I'm Scandinavian and am not a "horny bastard." I had my kids in my early twenties AFTER college and marriage. As did my mother ... grandparents ... great-grandparents ... etc.

I think you are an outlier.

76 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:04:30pm

re: #44 Charles

Exactly. The science of DNA had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

I will admit that I did not see the movie. But based on what I've read about it, Stein was not arguing that the science of DNA, per se, led to the Holocaust. (Which would be quite a stupid argument, since DNA wasn't discovered until 1959.)

77 Karridine  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:04:34pm

re: #62 hermeneutics

Yeah, Hermy, I'm laughing because it closely follows the dialogue in the animated movie 'Madagascar' when the lion curses his friend, "Darn you, darn you all to heck!"

A limp-wristed curse, sanitized for politically correct reasons...

78 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:04:42pm

re: #52 BGOH

"Well, we love hockey, and not many people know where Denmark is. So, we're kind of like the Canada of Europe."

/I'M NOT YOUR BUDDY, GUY!

Will you give us military bases in Canada for 20,000 Bennigan's coupons?

/I'm not your guy, friend!

79 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:04:57pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

I have no Creationist base.

All your Creationist base are belong to us!
HAHAHA!

80 Phileosophos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:05:16pm

Um, I hate to burst your bubble, folks, but the fact that the Nazis happened to be wrong about their genetic beliefs in no way invalidates Ben Stein's claim. His point isn't that the Nazis were right about their views, only that they had them because of a Darwinist reading of the world (i.e., as a purely naturalistic, survival-of-the-fittest adaptive mechanism). Had Darwin's view not come along, it is dubious at best that the Nazis would have been clever enough to come up with such a eugenics program on their own.

As Richard Dawkins put it, Darwin finally made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist. That is, prior to Darwin, it simply wasn't possible to believe in a world without God. But thanks to Darwin, and borrowing from Dostoevsky, in a world without God all things are permitted. It doesn't matter that the Nazis understanding of Darwinian genetics was false; what matters is that it was a justifying/driving force behind the Holocaust.

81 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:05:31pm

re: #53 Gagdad Bob

Respectfully, to suggest that all people who believe in ID are "creationists" is as intellectually dishonest as saying that all people who believe in reductionistic and nihilistic Darwinism are necessarily nazis. Neither statement is true.

I'll agree with you under certain conditions. Creationism as a matter of faith I have no problem with. Faith is faith. However, creationism and ID are not science. I'm not disputing your faith, only your science.
/Turtles, all the way down

82 Yankee Division Son  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:05:46pm

OT

Just plain funny

83 stickdude  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:05:52pm

re: #60 Charles

No, Ben Stein's movie showed nothing of the sort. It showed an ideologue perverting the Holocaust to promote a dishonest agenda.

So a distorted belief in evolution played no part whatsoever in the Holocaust? What about the eugenics movement of the early 20th century? Did that have nothing to do with evolution, either?

84 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:06:03pm

re: #66 Muadib

There is more to everything than meets the eye...

Thanks for pointing out the inanity of my comment.

[sheepish look]

Greetings Professor Falken. How about a nice game of chess?

85 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:06:17pm

re: #79 jcm

Ha!

86 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:06:48pm

re: #73 battletop2

Science is not bad. Individuals (like algore) who use it erroneously to promote their political agenda, are shameful.

And what of people like the discovery institute? Are they shameful too?

87 Psaturn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:06:57pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

I have no Creationist base.

I think he referring to Charle's base...that there were quite a few Creationists...seeing that many of the supporters of Israel as well as patriotic Americans and supporter of US military and "conservative" values are usually theists of the Jewish and Christian varieties...

88 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:07:05pm

re: #75 hermeneutics

No doubt. We're strange in other ways as well. I think it comes from our Finn roots.

89 BGOH  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:07:12pm

re: #78 brainwizard73

I'M NOT YOUR FWEIND, BUDDAY!

/Can I turn this into a drinking thread. I want a drinking thread. OH! OH! And a boobie thread!

90 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:07:13pm

It was a Holocaust waiting for an excuse which the Nazi THOUGHT they found in Darwinism. And they didn't care if they were wrong.

91 kevinmumaw  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:07:19pm

re: #13 nyc redneck

odd how hitler stood before huge crowds extolling the virtues of the tall blond aryan race and he was such a short little dark swarthy creep.

I've wondered about that for years.

92 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:07:45pm

Gotta check out for a few...

Stay frosty, y'all.

93 wolfie  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:07:45pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

I have no Creationist base.

Damned straight ! That's a fern base!

94 Psaturn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:07:54pm

re: #81 Killgore Trout

I think ID can be science.

95 itellu3times  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:08:04pm

re: #47 paint-right

Speaking of hoping to belong to some interesting group of people, is there anywhere a site which shows what they have figured out about ancient migrations etc etc. As in discovering genetic links between native Americans and Siberians and Incas and Egyptians and Thor Heyerdal. LOL

What does it cost to get your gene pool analyzed and find out who contributed to your mitochondrial DNA? And who would you trust to do it?

I don't know a single source for this, but it's an interesting question, I hope somebody is centralizing it. Probably have to research hundreds of academic articles from biology, geography, anthropology, who knows what departments.

As to getting your genome mapped, I think that's still about $100k, they're working on getting that down to $10k then $1k until it becomes standard to do at birth, but just not quite yet. And maybe the art and science of detailed genome mapping isn't *quite* there yet either, but ssssh, that's a secret. Anyway, a lot of specific mutations can at least be searched for already with I dunno what accuracy, assume something north of 80%, I wonder.

(I did a little genetic combinatoric math for my molecular biologist brother a few years ago, maybe things have improved since but I was sort of appalled at how it was being done back then)

Practice of medicine is going to change tremendously over the next few decades, genetic profile will match you to the proper drugs.

As to what it says about your origins, more often than not you probably don't want to ask! Especially don't ask on Father's Day weekend, or what happened in Vegas may not stay there.

96 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:08:15pm

re: #74 Psaturn

Neither one was a scientist, and they were used, flattered and abused because of their familial connection.

97 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:08:55pm

re: #83 stickdude

Um...have you been drinking?

98 jaunte  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:08:57pm

re: #80 Phileosophos

Had Darwin's view not come along, it is dubious at best that the Nazis would have been clever enough to come up with such a eugenics program on their own.

On the contrary, they might have just used Martin Luther's words as an excuse:

"I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in, proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated."
99 paint-right  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:09:15pm

re: #58 jaunte

I put a link in the spinoffs, but I don't know who runs the operation.

Got it, thanks. maybe i could check at my nearby university to lend my genes for free. I'll report back if i find anything interesting or scandalous.

/ I used to hope I was part native American

100 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:09:27pm

Has anyone here ever been hypnotized or know how to self-hypnotize? My daughter said she barked like a dog once at her senior party. Everyone told her about it and she had no memory of it.

101 Cognito  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:09:39pm

I think science is the study of what we can see, on this side of the mortal curtain. I think religion is the study of everything beyond. And I think that both start to look a bit silly when they try to intrude on the other.

102 laZardo  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:09:56pm

Our genetic process since we first emerged from the sea has pretty much been defined and is very much inarguable. What happened long before then - before our current universe was created, knock yerselves out. (:

/that's all I got to say about that.

103 kevinmumaw  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:10:02pm

re: #89 BGOH

I'M NOT YOUR FWEIND, BUDDAY!

/Can I turn this into a drinking thread. I want a drinking thread. OH! OH! And a boobie thread!

OK...I had a glass of Merlot a few hours ago. I'm out of gin or I would be drinking Tanqueray and tonic. So I settled for Grey Goose and Perrier. It's not bad.

104 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:10:12pm

re: #91 kevinmumaw

Cognitive dissonance.

That and since he wrote the rules, they didn't apply to him. Just to everyone else.

105 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:10:48pm

re: #89 BGOH

I'M NOT YOUR FWEIND, BUDDAY!

/Can I turn this into a drinking thread. I want a drinking thread. OH! OH! And a boobie thread!

You big boob! It's time to drink! Just don't get knocked down. Or, get knocked down. You'll get up. Just like ME.

106 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:11:30pm

re: #101 Cognito

I think science is the study of what we can see, on this side of the mortal curtain. I think religion is the study of everything beyond. And I think that both start to look a bit silly when they try to intrude on the other.

Can we see neutrinos? or do we just know they are there? That's science.

107 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:11:43pm

re: #80 Phileosophos

Um, I hate to burst your bubble, folks, but the fact that the Nazis happened to be wrong about their genetic beliefs in no way invalidates Ben Stein's claim.

Dude, Darwin's writings were banned in Nazi Germany.

6. Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel).


They burned his books and evolution was not taught in Nazi schools. It's a historical fact. Get over it.

108 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:11:58pm
109 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:11:59pm

re: #94 Psaturn

Then tell me, how would it be disproved? How is it falsifiable?

110 Muadib  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:12:39pm

re: #84 brainwizard73

Thanks for pointing out the inanity of my comment.

[sheepish look]

Greetings Professor Falken. How about a nice game of chess?

There was nothing inane about your comment. I liked it. How about a game of tick-tack-toe to see who wins the ID vs Evolution debate.

111 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:12:51pm

re: #11 George Slivers

This post has about as much reasoning supporting it as a Keith Olbermann post. Ben Stein's movie showed that the philosophical underpinnings of Darwinism were used to justify the holocost. It would be nice if you fundamentalist could stop attacking your creationist base.

I despise fundamentalists of all stripes, and will argue all day with any creationists; fundamentalist= Darwinist? really? Darwin's ideas may have very indirectly fueled Hitler's lunacy, but less than those of Nietzsche (no Nazi), and especially Spengler- who very unwittingly, I believe, provided some fuel for Hitler's deplorable philosophy. Hitler created an unholy blend of the ideas of many intellectuals, most of whom would have deplored his end result.

112 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:12:55pm

re: #94 Psaturn

I think ID can be science.


Then you're goofy.

113 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:12:56pm

Stein told The New York Times last year that, were it up to him, he would call the movie, “From Darwin to Hitler.”

114 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:12:59pm
115 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:13:04pm

re: #106 DistantThunder

Can we see neutrinos? or do we just know they are there? That's science.

"Seeing" them isn't the point. We can't see air, either. But yes, neutrinos have left physical evidence of their existence.

116 Cognito  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:13:11pm

re: #106 DistantThunder

Can we see neutrinos? or do we just know they are there? That's science.

If you take 'see' that literally, then so be it.

117 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:13:14pm

re: #106 DistantThunder

Can we see neutrinos? or do we just know they are there? That's science.

more than 50 trillion solar electron neutrinos pass through the human body every second[- wikipedia

118 kevinmumaw  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:13:14pm

re: #89 BGOH

I'M NOT YOUR FWEIND, BUDDAY!

/Can I turn this into a drinking thread. I want a drinking thread. OH! OH! And a boobie thread!

Oh, and no boobies for me. Wife is in Oregon for my sister-in-law's graduation from U of O. Here's a nice little drinking related tuney tune from the Housemartins though.

119 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:13:28pm

re: #100 DistantThunder

It's not hard, but I generally recommend against it.

120 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:13:42pm

re: #83 stickdude

So a distorted belief in evolution played no part whatsoever in the Holocaust? What about the eugenics movement of the early 20th century? Did that have nothing to do with evolution, either?

Actually- isn't eugenics the opposite of evolution? Eugenics is man forcing it's will in population control and not allowing nature to take it's course.

121 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:13:53pm

81 Kilgore:

It's very simple, really. I do not use ID to try to prove the existence of God. Rather, since God cannot not exist, then intelligent design "cannot not be." In short, there is a metaphysical reason that the universe is absolutely intelligible to man's transcendent intelligence because the cosmic subject and object are rooted in the same source and reflect one another.

122 itellu3times  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:14:05pm

re: #98 jaunte

Ugly as that all is, of course it's correct, anti-semitism had long roots in German and European history, so it wasn't all that much of a reach for Hitler, and not all the much of a shock to the general population.

It didn't come out of the blue or leave people gasping, there was no particular need for some fancy rationalization. Anyway, scientistic (fake science) explanations abounded in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, and are hardly rare today and I suppose never will be.

123 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:14:13pm
124 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:14:31pm
125 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:14:42pm

re: #101 Cognito

I think science is the study of what we can see, on this side of the mortal curtain. I think religion is the study of everything beyond. And I think that both start to look a bit silly when they try to intrude on the other.

The problem is a lot of human experience does not lend itself to empirical proof, yet is 'real' nevertheless. Take religious experiences. Not provable, but entirely real. Brain chemistry or supernatural?

126 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:14:53pm

re: #80 Phileosophos

Which claim? The one where he says "Science Kills people?"

127 Sarge1984  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:14:53pm

re: #103 kevinmumaw

re: #105 MandyManners

Woo-=hoo!

It's FNDT time, kids!

128 BGOH  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:14:57pm

re: #103 kevinmumaw

Sounds good to me!

re: #105 MandyManners

You ain't 'a eva gonna keep me down!

129 paint-right  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:14:59pm

re: #95 itellu3times

I actually have a sort of checkered past not of my own making which led to my appearance on planet earth and so more surprises would be interesting and fun, not a problem of any sort. Bring it on!

130 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:15:08pm

re: #113 Charles

Stein told The New York Times last year that, were it up to him, he would call the movie, “From Darwin to Hitler.”


THIS IS NOT THE BEN *I* KNEW.

131 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:15:18pm

re: #112 Killgore Trout

Then you're goofy.

Oh, it could be. In theory. If we found evidence that life on Earth was, say, "seeded" by some extraterrestrial intelligence.

But I do agree that the evidence does not point in that direction.

ID *need not* be camouflage for religion. But it generally is.

132 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:15:26pm

re: #101 Cognito

I think science is the study of what we can see, on this side of the mortal curtain. I think religion is the study of everything beyond. And I think that both start to look a bit silly when they try to intrude on the other.

I've said the same thing, in various ways myself.

133 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:15:41pm

re: #121 Gagdad Bob

I do not use ID to try to prove the existence of God


Nor do I try to use evolution to prove there is no god. I think we are in agreement.

134 newsjunkie_ky  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:15:51pm

re: #91 kevinmumaw
He wanted to be their creator and therefore their god.
When you believe in nothing you will fall for anything.

135 itellu3times  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:16:05pm

re: #129 paint-right

I actually have a sort of checkered past not of my own making which led to my appearance on planet earth and so more surprises would be interesting and fun, not a problem of any sort. Bring it on!

Ever read Kurt Vonnegut's Sirens of Titan?

136 swamprat  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:16:08pm

If the theory(or fact) of evolution never existed, or was considered in any way,

137 Ojoe  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:16:13pm

re: #55 Thanos

Ultimately the amount of energy that the sun dumps on the earth swamps all other available sources.
The Sun Today

Specifically:
SOHO Extreme Ultraviolet Imaging Telescope (EIT) full-field He II 304 Å image from NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, 2008/6/14 at 02:07:52

It's in the "future" because that's 'zulu' time

138 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:16:25pm

re: #117 DistantThunder

more than 50 trillion solar electron neutrinos pass through the human body every second[- wikipedia

GET 'EM OFF ME! GET EM OFF!

139 wolfie  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:16:37pm

re: #111 Bacchus's daddy

I despise fundamentalists of all stripes, and will argue all day with any creationists; fundamentalist= Darwinist? really? Darwin's ideas may have very indirectly fueled Hitler's lunacy, but less than those of Nietzsche (no Nazi), and especially Spengler- who very unwittingly, I believe, provided some fuel for Hitler's deplorable philosophy. Hitler created an unholy blend of the ideas of many intellectuals, most of whom would have deplored his end result.

Spot on.

140 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:16:40pm

re: #120 Sharmuta

It's more along the lines of animal husbandry, but even on a drinking thread on LGF on a Friday night, I don't particularly want to go there.

141 gotha  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:16:40pm

Aren't we missing the point here. Does it really matter whether the science was valid on which Hitler based his decisions? Right or wrong, he was merely following the logical Darwinian conclusion. He was following the tautology that only the strongest survive.

142 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:17:03pm

re: #131 Occasional Reader

ID *need not* be camouflage for religion. But it generally is.


Agreed, I like 2001. HAL rules.

143 itellu3times  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:17:11pm

re: #123 MandyManners

Natural or surgical/scientific?

You ask the most interesting questions!

144 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:17:37pm

re: #121 Gagdad Bob

Theologically speaking, humans - and human reason - is not transcendent.

145 jaunte  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:17:40pm

re: #138 Occasional Reader

The scientologist will be with you shortly...

146 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:17:44pm

re: #123 MandyManners

Natural or surgical/scientific?

Bra-vo!

147 Ojoe  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:17:46pm

re: #63 jcm

In fact some of the rules of genetics were discovered by a Christian monk.

148 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:17:49pm

I've been saying around here for what seems like a long time that our newfound understanding of the human genome has utterly destroyed the concept of race as anthing other than a societal construct used as a leverage point to proclaim supremacy of certain peoples and societies over others.

When you see people using the race card, laugh your ass off, because they are the inheritor flag bearers of the fascist racist attitudes of the past.

Scientifically speaking, race is all hoohaw about nothing, zero, nada.

Obama is neither white nor black. Nor is John McCain. We are all humans and we vary in many and fantastic ways.

But race is not supportable by any modern knowledge. I hope that some people aren't personally offended by the truth.

149 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:17:53pm

re: #123 MandyManners

Natural or surgical/scientific?

The correct answer: WHO THE &*#*! CARES?!

150 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:18:09pm

If reductionistic Darwinists are correct that human beings are of no intrinsic worth and there can be no absolute truth -- let alone values -- then why are murder or rape wrong?

151 DistantThunder  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:18:13pm

The problem is that something may exist that we do not yet have proof to "see." The postulate for nueutrinos was written in 1930, but had not yet been proven. But it would seem neutrinos have always existed even before man's conscious recognition of their existence.

152 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:18:32pm

re: #123 MandyManners

Natural or surgical/scientific?

There's the engineer aspect of suspension, holding a mass up against gravity. The the surgical enhancements which are possible, but without closer examination impossible to determine. Scientific, in both a biological and physiological and anatomical sense. And you left out the artistic....

153 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:18:37pm

re: #137 Ojoe

Ultimately the amount of energy that the sun dumps on the earth swamps all other available sources.
The Sun Today

Specifically:
SOHO Extreme Ultraviolet Imaging Telescope (EIT) full-field He II 304 Å image from NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, 2008/6/14 at 02:07:52


It's in the "future" because that's 'zulu' time


But on the other hand you would have to pave the entire southwest of the US with solar cells to get the energy burned in cars in 2006. Solar power is one of the oldest forms of energy, if it were scalable to the high energy use we need by reasonable means, we'd a dunnit by now.

154 Psaturn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:18:45pm

re: #96 Dianna

Neither one was a scientist, and they were used, flattered and abused because of their familial connection.

Dianna, I checked Charles Darwin's educational background, and it sounds to me it was more theological than a scientific one!

From Wikipedia:


n 1827, his father, unhappy at his younger son’s lack of progress, shrewdly enrolled him in a Bachelor of Arts course at Christ’s College, Cambridge to qualify as a clergyman, expecting him to get a good income as an Anglican parson.[16] However, Darwin preferred riding and shooting to studying.[17] Along with his cousin William Darwin Fox, he became engrossed in the craze at the time for the competitive collecting of beetles.[18] Fox introduced him to the Reverend John Stevens Henslow, professor of botany, for expert advice on beetles. Darwin subsequently joined Henslow’s natural history course and became his favourite pupil, known to the dons as “the man who walks with Henslow”.[19][20] When exams drew near, Darwin focused on his studies and received private instruction from Henslow. Darwin was particularly enthusiastic about the writings of William Paley, including the argument for divine design in nature.[21] It has been argued that Darwin’s enthusiasm for Paley’s religious adaptationism paradoxically played a role even later, when Darwin formulated his theory of natural selection.[22] In his finals in January 1831, he performed well in theology and, having scraped through in classics, mathematics and physics, came tenth out of a pass list of 178.[23]

Residential requirements kept Darwin at Cambridge until June. Following Henslow’s example and advice, he was in no rush to take Holy Orders. Inspired by Alexander von Humboldt’s Personal Narrative, he planned to visit Tenerife with some classmates after graduation to study natural history in the tropics. To prepare himself, Darwin joined the geology course of the Reverend Adam Sedgwick and, in the summer, went with him to assist in mapping strata in Wales.[24] After a fortnight with student friends at Barmouth, he returned home to find a letter from Henslow recommending Darwin as a suitable (if unfinished) naturalist for the unpaid position of gentleman’s companion to Robert FitzRoy, the captain of HMS Beagle, which was to leave in four weeks on an expedition to chart the coastline of South America. His father objected to the planned two-year voyage, regarding it as a waste of time, but was persuaded by his brother-in-law, Josiah Wedgwood, to agree to his son’s participation.[25]

155 itellu3times  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:19:13pm

re: #149 Occasional Reader

The correct answer: WHO THE &*#*! CARES?!

I care! I want this researched in great depth no matter how long it takes.

156 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:19:17pm

re: #141 gotha

Right or wrong, he was merely following the logical Darwinian conclusion.


No. If Hitler really believed the Jews were controlling the word because of their innate superiority then he would have allowed it to happen.

157 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:19:22pm

re: #94 Psaturn

I think ID can be science.

I send The Kid to an incredibly expensive, private, Christain school.

He learns the Word in chapel. He learns science in class.

If for one minute that school were to teach ID, there would be a mass exodus, with me leading the way.

158 Boogberg  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:19:22pm

re: #114 ploome hineni

google has tons of infor on him and his illustrious family

Thanks Ploome. In the mean time, Sweet. God. Damned. Fucking. Hippies.

Get a haircut, Charles. :D

159 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:19:30pm

re: #125 esch

The problem is a lot of human experience does not lend itself to empirical proof, yet is 'real' nevertheless. Take religious experiences. Not provable, but entirely real. Brain chemistry or supernatural?

No-one's affair but the person who experiences it. And I will never denigrate anyone's experience of grace.

160 zmdavid  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:20:53pm

re: #120 Sharmuta

Actually- isn't eugenics the opposite of evolution? Eugenics is man forcing it's will in population control and not allowing nature to take it's course.

I think eugenics is what happens if you believe in evolution, realize you got the short end of the stick and try to change it.

161 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:20:58pm

144 Dianna

Humans are not transcendent? Please explain. That makes no sense whatsoever. Your statement itself is a self-refuting example of transcendence.

162 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:21:03pm

re: #150 Gagdad Bob

If reductionistic Darwinists are correct that human beings are of no intrinsic worth and there can be no absolute truth -- let alone values -- then why are murder or rape wrong?


Because if you fuck me and kill me I'll be really pissed off.
Newsflash: You don't corner the market on moral superiority.

163 solomonpanting  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:21:14pm

#102 laZardo

Our genetic process since we first emerged from the sea has pretty much been defined and is very much inarguable.

Really?

Well, once I was a stone, many years ago
Into a pool was thrown, many years ago
Time went by and the pool ran dry
Excavated was I, and tempered and beat in the fiery heat
By the hand of a man, whose name was Dan, Dan the blacksmith

Well once I was a daisy, many years ago
In pastures green and lazy, many years ago
But I was et by a goat who fell in a moat
And forgetting to float he sunk like a lead and stayed until dead
And was relieved to find just how kind it all was

Well once I was a bullfrog, had to struggle for survival
And once I was a carp and lived in waters on the meadow
And once I was a mynah bird, quoting verses from the Bible
I said "pretty boy, pretty boy, Saint Luke!"

Then I was born a human baby, many years ago
I remember I was born unto a lady, many years ago
All our hopes were piled on the back of a child
Who turned out to be wild, sent the devil a prayer
And caused the parson to swear so I took my leave
To lie and thieve, my way to jail

Well, I've been a tinker, tailor, soldier, sailor
Known good times and disaster
But now I've found a teacher and the teacher has a master
And the master is perfection, so he'll help us get there faster
Don't need no proof, 'cause it's the truth, and I'll drink to that!

Evolution
Ronnie Lane

164 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:21:15pm

OT Earthquake thread up at HuffPo and they forgot to close comments. A $20 says it gets as nasty as the tornado thread did yesterday before they deleted them all. This time I need to remember to take screen shots.

165 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:21:17pm

re: #147 Ojoe

In fact some of the rules of genetics were discovered by a Christian monk.

Mendel, the basic rules of genetics. The concept of alleles is still very much in use. He was the first to really quantify genetic properties, his work was discovered until the 1920 and '30's.

166 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:21:23pm

re: #142 Killgore Trout

Agreed, I like 2001. HAL rules.

Well, there they weren't seeding Earth with life, they were just making monkeys smarter.

Me, I'd have programmed HAL with either a tougher-sounding male voice ("I'm not gonna open the pod bay doors, Dave. You got a problem with that?" No, no, whatever you say, HAL! Heh heh) or a sexier-sounding female voice ("Oooh, I just can't open the pod bay doors, Mister Pwesident.... aren't I naughty?" Oh, I can't stay mad at you...).

167 swamprat  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:21:45pm

again, but shorter. *itler would have been an ass, with or without evolution. The various excuses for his rampage do not matter.

168 BGOH  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:22:01pm

Ultimately, this whole debate boils down to this:

169 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:22:28pm

re: #150 Gagdad Bob

Take that strawman down and pack it away.

170 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:22:33pm

AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH HH.

171 Max Darkside  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:22:44pm

Why do I have visions of thousands of Greenshirt youths goose-stepping past Heir Al Gore, marching off to defeat global warming?

172 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:23:09pm

re: #159 Dianna

It's no one else's affair unless and until they try to use it to 'prove' falsity of others. I would never denigrate someone's religious experiences or convictions, but have had many, many people do exactly that to me.

173 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:23:14pm

re: #141 gotha

Aren't we missing the point here. Does it really matter whether the science was valid on which Hitler based his decisions? Right or wrong, he was merely following the logical Darwinian conclusion. He was following the tautology that only the strongest survive.

Bull and shit.

You don't seem to understand Darwin very well. It's not the strongest who always survives, it's the ones best adapted to current environment.

You are equating pop pseudo-science social Darwinism with science.

174 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:23:25pm

re: #155 itellu3times

I care! I want this researched in great depth no matter how long it takes.

I'm your man. Anything for science, that's what I always say.

175 paint-right  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:23:43pm

re: #135 itellu3times

Ever read Kurt Vonnegut's Sirens of Titan?

No, but it sounds interesting, By "checkered past' I did not mean to imply that I was dropped off by an alien space ship or in any way 'seeded' by extraterrestrials.

/ though that would explain a lot

176 Josephine  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:23:55pm

re: #25 Charles

Sorry, Josephine. Too many windows open. Hat tip now corrected.

LOL, I was too busy blabbing on the other thread to notice. Thank you for the hat tip, Charles!

Killgore was confused with a Christian. And on a science thread, no less. Heh.

; )

177 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:24:08pm

It's unbelievable that otherwise thinking people completely gloss over and ignore the truth that I've just spoken.

I'm flabbergasted.

Is truth that scary?

178 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:24:08pm

Kilgore:

That is my point. You won't like it, but under no circumstances can you say that it is objectively wrong. Be honest. Have the courage of your absence of convictions.

179 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:24:11pm

re: #161 Gagdad Bob

Oh, dear.


transcendent
One entry found.
transcendent
Main Entry:
tran·scen·dent Listen to the pronunciation of transcendent
Pronunciation:
-dənt
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Latin transcendent-, transcendens, present participle of transcendere
Date:
15th century

1 a: exceeding usual limits : surpassing b: extending or lying beyond the limits of ordinary experience cin Kantian philosophy : being beyond the limits of all possible experience and knowledge2: being beyond comprehension3: transcending the universe or material existence — compare immanent 24: universally applicable or significant

180 Psaturn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:24:19pm

re: #109 Dianna

Then tell me, how would it be disproved? How is it falsifiable?

The same way that MACRO evolution cannot be disproved or falsifiable....

Remember that the main thing about the Theory of Evolution is the idea of COMMON DESCENT...that we all came from a single living ancestor from way back in primordial time.

Creationism as stated in the Book of Genesis says that G-d created each KIND of living things on different days, with man being created on the sixth day.

I was chatting with a chaplain from Loma Linda University (they have a great medical school and they are very CREATIONIST) and we were talking about the possibility of hominids existing prior to Adam. We agreed that Genesis would not negate the existence of hominids prior to creation of Adam.

181 Reno911  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:24:23pm

I'm forming a new religion.

It's called "Guns and Guitars".

Our God(s) are (in no particular order) Leo Fender, Les Paul, and Gerald Bull.

We believe in ID and Evolution. No arguing here.

Send me a buck and I will swear you in.

182 newsjunkie_ky  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:24:25pm

re: #141 gotha

Aren't we missing the point here. Does it really matter whether the science was valid on which Hitler based his decisions? Right or wrong, he was merely following the logical Darwinian conclusion. He was following the tautology that only the strongest survive.


And he began first by killing the disabled.

183 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:24:41pm

re: #124 ploome hineni

Hitler was a Jewhater who looked for any theory to support his feelings

and why would anyone want to argue with a creationist?

just back away slowly, and go shopping

I maybe phrased that too strongly. I certainly respect creationists, if they are not of the fundamentalist (trying to impose theirviews/ religion on you) stripe. I don't believe what they believe, and maybe engaging in friendly argument with them, come to think of it, would be counterproductive. Irreconcilable differences between intellectual allies (on most fronts), if you will.

184 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:24:57pm

re: #141 gotha

He was following the tautology that only the strongest survive.

Yes. And Hitler personally was an uneducated man.

185 nyc redneck  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:25:04pm

his perverse hatred of the jews and other undesirables ended up being his own undoing.
that bomb in the suitcase put under his table at a meeting left him weak, physically disabled and w/ extreme hearing loss .
his own high level officials had tried to assassinate him.
he was spending too much money and energy trying to kill those in the camps rather than fight the actual war.
he went insane from his obsession.

186 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:25:48pm

re: #154 Psaturn

Neither his nephew nor his son in law were scientists, however.

I have read Darwin, and I've read a lot about Darwin. I'm frankly tired of people laying at his feet things he never did, said, believed or supported.

187 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:26:05pm

re: #181 Reno911

I'm forming a new religion.

It's called "Guns and Guitars".

Our God(s) are (in no particular order) Leo Fender, Les Paul, and Gerald Bull.

We believe in ID and Evolution. No arguing here.

Send me a buck and I will swear you in.

No PRS? HERESY!

188 Josephine  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:26:05pm

re: #13 nyc redneck

odd how hitler stood before huge crowds extolling the virtues of the tall blond aryan race and he was such a short little dark swarthy creep.

When I saw the photo attached to the article, I thought, "What an ugly little man".

/Don't ask a lunatic to make sense.

189 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:26:31pm

re: #176 Josephine

Heh.

190 Ojoe  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:26:39pm

re: #113 Charles

You might make the case that a facile misinterpretation of Darwin led to the Nazis.

But the misinterpretation was a moral failure.

The moral failure led,

Darwin was not responsible, his work was just a convenient starting point for a predisposition that was an evil predisposition.

Funny but this is a spiritual explanation in a way, the very thing (a spiritual explanation) that the creationists are so insistent upon.

191 BGOH  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:26:44pm

I think we can all agree on this:

192 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:26:48pm

re: #180 Psaturn


We agreed that Genesis would not negate the existence of hominids prior to creation of Adam.

You mean, like from 3:30 - 6:30 p.m. on the fifth day?

193 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:27:24pm

Something I found here a while back.

The Religion of the Nazis.

194 Psaturn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:27:57pm

re: #157 MandyManners

I send The Kid to an incredibly expensive, private, Christain school.

He learns the Word in chapel. He learns science in class.

If for one minute that school were to teach ID, there would be a mass exodus, with me leading the way.

I am sorry you feel that way.

I have a degree in Biology and Physiological Optics...and I see nothing wrong using ID in science. In fact, the more you know about the intricacies of natural living physiology and biochemistry, the more one see "design" and "purposefully design" rather than random or non purpose event.

195 newsjunkie_ky  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:28:11pm

re: #157 MandyManners

I send The Kid to an incredibly expensive, private, Christain school.

He learns the Word in chapel. He learns science in class.

If for one minute that school were to teach ID, there would be a mass exodus, with me leading the way.


Do they teach in science class that we evolved from mud?

196 mich-again  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:28:31pm

Gotha posted..

Does it really matter whether the science was valid on which Hitler based his decisions? Right or wrong, he was merely following the logical Darwinian conclusion.

I have no idea what that means.

197 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:28:50pm

re: #177 really grumpy big dog johnson

Not to me. I'm just getting so royally po'ed that I'm thinking about packing it in.

198 Reno911  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:28:55pm

re: #187 esch

Ok..Paul Reed is in. I forgot about the Mira.

199 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:29:07pm

re: #141 gotha

Aren't we missing the point here. Does it really matter whether the science was valid on which Hitler based his decisions? Right or wrong, he was merely following the logical Darwinian conclusion. He was following the tautology that only the strongest survive.

Overriding any "intellectual" theorizing about the weak and the strong, I believe, was Hitler's fervent desire to see Jews NOT survive.

200 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:29:16pm

re: #171 Max Darkside

Why do I have visions of thousands of Greenshirt youths goose-stepping past Heir Al Gore, marching off to defeat global warming?

Because you pay attention?

You tell me, please.

201 mich-again  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:29:17pm

re: #195 newsjunkie_ky

Do they teach in science class that we evolved from mud?

BWAHAHA!

202 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:29:29pm

Dianna: truth, by definition is transcendent (as are beauty and morality). Animals do not, and cannot, know any of these transcendent categories. To be a man is to transcend animality.

203 Max Darkside  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:29:37pm
Creationism as stated in the Book of Genesis says that G-d created each KIND of living things on different days, with man being created on the sixth day.

Ahh... but it does not say specifically how, and the guiding hand could well have created a universe by which he initiated the evolutionary process and thereby created all that followed. Genesis generally follows evolution, close enough for a guy pounding papayrus (sp?) in the day.

Creationism and Evolution are not so much at odds. Just some people try to make them opposites.

/former Benedictine Seminarian from here:
[Link: www.mountangelabbey.org...]

204 Ojoe  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:30:26pm

re: #153 Thanos

Actually at the top of the atmosphere the sun puts about 2 hp per square yard onto the earth; at the surface it is less due to absorption by the atmosphere, but the percent of land required to power up any reasonable energy use is quite small.

Think how many lights you would have to turn on to light your back yard at midnight so it looked like noon, and you will get some idea of the energy that is there for the harvesting.

205 MikeySDCA  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:30:37pm

Sorry, Charles, but the fact that what the Nazis believed was bs does not change the fact that they believed it and acted on it.

Ben Stein is of course an idiot, but a stopped clock is right twice a day. Social Darwinism was very big in that period, and led to many horrific things, not least in this country. The Germans went the furthest, and I offer no excuses for the inexcusable, but context should be remembered.

206 Max Darkside  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:30:43pm

re: #200 MandyManners

Because you pay attention?

You tell me, please.


(Mushrooms make me see things)

207 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:31:14pm

re: #198 Reno911

What about amps? I want to be Apostle Boogie.

208 Ojoe  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:31:22pm

re: #181 Reno911

Mine is called

Bombs and Bagpipes

/kidding

209 gman  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:31:30pm

re: #95 itellu3times

I don't know a single source for this, but it's an interesting question, I hope somebody is centralizing it. Probably have to research hundreds of academic articles from biology, geography, anthropology, who knows what departments.

As to getting your genome mapped, I think that's still about $100k, they're working on getting that down to $10k then $1k until it becomes standard to do at birth, but just not quite yet. And maybe the art and science of detailed genome mapping isn't *quite* there yet either, but ssssh, that's a secret. Anyway, a lot of specific mutations can at least be searched for already with I dunno what accuracy, assume something north of 80%, I wonder.

(I did a little genetic combinatoric math for my molecular biologist brother a few years ago, maybe things have improved since but I was sort of appalled at how it was being done back then)

Practice of medicine is going to change tremendously over the next few decades, genetic profile will match you to the proper drugs.

As to what it says about your origins, more often than not you probably don't want to ask! Especially don't ask on Father's Day weekend, or what happened in Vegas may not stay there.

National Geographic and IBM have teamed up on a Genographic project. You can purchase a kit and find out more about your ancestors.

Here is the link

210 mich-again  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:31:54pm

re: #202 Gagdad Bob

Animals do not, and cannot, know any of these transcendent categories.

How can you be so sure? Maybe the dog is thinking the same thing you are?

211 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:32:10pm

Those who choose not to abandon race as a concept are as ill-informed as those who proclaim "intelligent design" as undeniable truth, or those that thoughtlessly assume that that creation and evolution cannot coexist in logical harmony.

Now I'm gonna get pushy.

Since I'm dealing with thousands of years of human presumption and societal dogma here, maybe I should just shout.

RACE DOES NOT EXIST.

212 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:32:11pm

"Nietzschean Christians" are beginning to annoy me. It does make me happy that there are organized religions however since without their provenance of morals many seemingly would be murdering, raping, pillaging thugs because there aren't any morals otherwise according to them and only the strong survive.


/I'm an aetheist who takes pens from work back to the office if I find them in my shirt pocket at home. Get a clue.

213 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:32:13pm

re: #180 Psaturn

Not true; there are, however, biologists on this site who can - and will - set you straight on how falsifiable evolution is.

As for Loma Linda, it's 7th Day Adventist. I grew up in Redlands.

214 Boogberg  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:32:28pm

re: #191 BGOH

I think we can all agree on this:

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

That was some funny shit! :D

215 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:32:42pm

re: #194 Psaturn

I am sorry you feel that way.

I have a degree in Biology and Physiological Optics...and I see nothing wrong using ID in science. In fact, the more you know about the intricacies of natural living physiology and biochemistry, the more one see "design" and "purposefully design" rather than random or non purpose event.

I want The Kid to have the best advantage when it comes time for him to apply for colleges.

This will only happen if he is fully versed in Dwarnian THEORY.

Now, don't you dare tell me that I'm wrong in how I raise The Kid.

Oh. Shit. I'm sorry. You wouldn't do that. You're a gentleman.

*smoochies*

216 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:32:44pm

re: #210 mich-again

Mmmmm...bacon...

Yep I think you're right there.

217 Max Darkside  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:32:45pm

re: #210 mich-again

How can you be so sure? Maybe the dog is thinking the same thing you are?

(especially on Friday nights... Baaawoooooo!)

218 nyc redneck  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:33:29pm

re: #211 really grumpy big dog johnson

Those who choose not to abandon race as a concept are as ill-informed as those who proclaim "intelligent design" as undeniable truth, or those that thoughtlessly assume that that creation and evolution cannot coexist in logical harmony.

Now I'm gonna get pushy.

Since I'm dealing with thousands of years of human presumption and societal dogma here, maybe I should just shout.

RACE DOES NOT EXIST.

maybe rev wright heard you.

219 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:33:51pm

re: #203 Max Darkside

Ahh... but it does not say specifically how, and the guiding hand could well have created a universe by which he initiated the evolutionary process and thereby created all that followed. Genesis generally follows evolution, close enough for a guy pounding papayrus (sp?) in the day.

Creationism and Evolution are not so much at odds. Just some people try to make them opposites.

/former Benedictine Seminarian from here:
[Link: www.mountangelabbey.org...]

A book, written by the hand of superstitious and ignorant man. They were actually on the right track, therefore, they cannot be assumed to be wrong.

220 Josephine  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:33:53pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

I have no Creationist base.

All your Creationist base are belong to us.

221 Psaturn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:34:01pm

re: #186 Dianna

Neither his nephew nor his son in law were scientists, however.

I have read Darwin, and I've read a lot about Darwin. I'm frankly tired of people laying at his feet things he never did, said, believed or supported.

Dianna, why do you insist that his cousin was NOT a scientist? What is your definition of "scientist"?

I got more information about this cousin and this is what I found:

Sir Francis Galton F.R.S. (16 February 1822 – 17 January 1911), half-cousin of Charles Darwin, was an English Victorian polymath, anthropologist, eugenicist, tropical explorer, geographer, inventor, meteorologist, proto-geneticist, psychometrician, and statistician. He was knighted in 1909.

Galton had a prolific intellect, and produced over 340 papers and books throughout his lifetime. He also created the statistical concept of correlation and widely promoted regression toward the mean. He was the first to apply statistical methods to the study of human differences and inheritance of intelligence, and introduced the use of questionnaires and surveys for collecting data on human communities, which he needed for genealogical and biographical works and for his anthropometric studies. He was a pioneer in eugenics, coining the very term itself and the phrase "nature versus nurture". As an investigator of the human mind, he founded psychometrics (the science of measuring mental faculties) and differential psychology. He devised a method for classifying fingerprints that proved useful in forensic science. As the initiator of scientific meteorology, he devised the first weather map, proposed a theory of anticyclones, and was the first to establish a complete record of short-term climatic phenomena on a European scale.[1] He also invented the Galton Whistle for testing differential hearing ability.

Sounds like a scientist to me...

222 mich-again  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:34:16pm

re: #216 esch

Mmmmm...bacon...

Yep I think you're right there.

You gonna eat that potato?

223 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:34:18pm

re: #150 Gagdad Bob

If reductionistic Darwinists are correct that human beings are of no intrinsic worth and there can be no absolute truth -- let alone values -- then why are murder or rape wrong?

I'm not sure exactly what the "reductionistic" implies, on top of the Darwinism. Strict materialist? Atheist? I believe Darwin's theory, although I wouldn't label myself a Darwinist. I believe that human beings have intrinsic worth. I believe in absolute "fact", although absolute "truth" I'm uncertain about. And yet I believe rape and murder are VERY wrong. Go figure.

224 MikeySDCA  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:34:28pm

re: #194 Psaturn

This nonsense was demolished by Kant. "Intelligent design" is circular, and all of your anecdotal wonders don't change that.

225 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:35:01pm

re: #222 mich-again

You gonna eat that potato?

Nope.

This spud's for you.

226 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:35:05pm

You see, we've just had a Darwinist -- assuming he wasn't joking -- equate canine and human minds. I assume you can understand the kind of mayhem that could follow such a misapprehension of reality.

227 Max Darkside  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:35:28pm

re: #219 really grumpy big dog johnson

A book, written by the hand of superstitious and ignorant man. They were actually on the right track, therefore, they cannot be assumed to be wrong.

And considering the day, they did a pretty darn good job laying it out.

228 mich-again  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:35:52pm

re: #226 Gagdad Bob

I assume you can understand the kind of mayhem that could follow such a misapprehension of reality.

Dude we got two dogs. I see it every day.

229 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:35:59pm

I repeat: Stein told The New York Times last year that, were it up to him, he would call the movie, “From Darwin to Hitler.”

We've had a lot of people trying to tell us that Stein didn't say this.

Well, he did, in no uncertain terms.

And it's a reductionist, deceptive argument intended to fool people with no understanding of the sceintific issues.

230 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:36:00pm

re: #204 Ojoe

Actually at the top of the atmosphere the sun puts about 2 hp per square yard onto the earth; at the surface it is less due to absorption by the atmosphere, but the percent of land required to power up any reasonable energy use is quite small.

Think how many lights you would have to turn on to light your back yard at midnight so it looked like noon, and you will get some idea of the energy that is there for the harvesting.


So go harvest it! Right now we need energy that works without messing up the air we breathe, nuclear does that and has done that emminently well for quite a while. I'm not anti-solar, I'm just saying that we need every source of energy we can get. Nuclear is the best stop gap we have ATM until we become able to harvest the large solar bounty through SPS or Sapphire solar furnaces.

231 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:36:06pm

re: #195 newsjunkie_ky

Do they teach in science class that we evolved from mud?

They teach the current, accepted theories.

This is an academy that produces National Merit Scholars, many who go on to preach The Word in distant lands.

232 Josephine  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:36:14pm

re: #79 jcm

All your Creationist base are belong to us!
HAHAHA!

Oh, rats. You beat me to it by 141 comments. I'm slow.

233 BGOH  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:36:25pm

re: #214 Boogberg

Then perhaps you'll enjoy....THIS!

/Seriously, someone is going to search on Youtube on my computer and think I look up nothing but boobs all day. Somehow, I'm OK with that.

234 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:36:33pm

re: #227 Max Darkside

And considering the day, they did a pretty darn good job laying it out.

I agree completely. In their modern day terms, they were visionaries.

235 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:37:09pm

re: #211 really grumpy big dog johnson


RACE DOES NOT EXIST.

I don't quite agree. Race "exists" as a group of characteristics constituting share genetic inheritance. The fact that these characteristics are somewhat arbitrarily chosen (in a strictly biological sense) doesn't mean they aren't "real".

236 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:37:10pm

re: #160 zmdavid

I think eugenics is what happens if you believe in evolution, realize you got the short end of the stick and try to change it.

LMAO!

237 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:37:16pm

re: #211 really grumpy big dog johnson

RACE DOES NOT EXIST.

The hell you say!
NASCAR!
/

What we call "race" is the expression of a particular set of genetic codes. The most prominent being skin color. That is control by how many sets of alleles and which one are turned on.

We all have the code, it just depends on which sets are turned on, or expressed.

238 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:37:21pm

re: #233 BGOH

Boobs Great OverHead?

239 NY Nana  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:37:29pm

NY Grampa is a real scientist, and what he calls 'Unintelligent Design'?

[Deleted].

/Is Albore in on this crap with Stein?

240 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:37:44pm

Bacchus's daddy:

I'm curious. On what basis do you believe in absolute truth, being that Darwinism only allows for change, certainly not eternal truth? How does a completely relative being know the absolute?

241 Reno911  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:37:45pm

re: #207 esch

Gs&Gs considers amp worship to be a personal journey. I can witness to the grace and power of Mesa Engineering but there are others just as worthy.

242 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:38:29pm
243 Josephine  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:38:34pm

re: #80 Phileosophos

That is, prior to Darwin, it simply wasn't possible to believe in a world without God.

So there were no atheists or agnostics prior to Darwin?

244 stickdude  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:38:36pm

re: #223 Bacchus's daddy

I believe Darwin's theory, although I wouldn't label myself a Darwinist. I believe that human beings have intrinsic worth.

Why would a collection of chemicals formed by random chance over a long time have any more intrinsic worth than the collection of chemicals you'd find in a rock?

For that matter, how does a collection of chemicals formed by random chance over a long time even realize it exists?

245 realwest  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:38:46pm

Hey all Y'all - sorry I'm late (again) what have I missed?!

246 MikeySDCA  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:38:51pm

re: #212 Thanos

You don't seem to know what "provenance" means.

American Heritage Dictionary

247 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:39:10pm

By gum, I DARE anyone here to tell me that I don't love The Kid because I don't demand he be taught A, B or C exclusively.

248 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:39:13pm

re: #232 Josephine

Oh, rats. You beat me to it by 141 comments. I'm slow.

I've got one or two tricks I'm good at...
The rest I fake!
;-)

249 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:39:47pm

re: #164 Neo Con since 9-11

OT Earthquake thread up at HuffPo and they forgot to close comments. A $20 says it gets as nasty as the tornado thread did yesterday before they deleted them all. This time I need to remember to take screen shots.

I imagine that the "nasty" comments have to do with the geographical location of the disaster? (I missed yesterday's snafu.)

250 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:40:07pm

re: #246 MikeySDCA

You don't seem to know what "provenance" means.

American Heritage Dictionary

So what's your point? Campaigning for resident gramarian?

251 solomonpanting  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:40:13pm

re: #211 really grumpy big dog johnson

RACE DOES NOT EXIST.

"There are only two races, the decent and the indecent." — Viktor Frankl

252 MikeySDCA  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:40:15pm

re: #229 Charles

True.

253 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:40:30pm

re: #211 really grumpy big dog johnson

No, it doesn't.

254 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:40:32pm

re: #247 MandyManners

Darlin'- stick to your guns. I want all of America's children given the best education we can give them, and ID's not it.

255 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:40:39pm

re: #242 karmic_inquisitor

Funniest thing I have read all week!

Peace in Our Time!

256 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:40:49pm

re: #49 Occasional Reader

YOU DID IT, YOU FINALLY DID IT! YOU BLEW IT UP! AWWW DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

-channelling Battlestar Galactica season finale

or Planet of the Apes..

257 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:40:53pm

re: #244 stickdude

Why would a collection of chemicals formed by random chance over a long time have any more intrinsic worth than the collection of chemicals you'd find in a rock?


Try to kill me or my family and I'll show you. You don't corner the market o valuing human life despite what you might think.

258 BGOH  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:40:59pm

re: #238 esch

Boobs Great OverHead?

Ummmm....exactly! Or something. Need more beer.

lol

259 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:41:00pm

re: #242 karmic_inquisitor

"use Presidential leadership to surge our diplomacy"

WTF? Sounds like something Billybob used to do.

260 MikeySDCA  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:41:17pm

re: #250 Thanos

No. You just don't seem to know what you're talking about.

261 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:41:30pm

re: #245 realwest

Oh, it's getting ugly again. Hold on to your hat.

262 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:41:40pm

re: #244 stickdude

Evolution does not deal with the origin of the universe.

263 Psaturn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:42:04pm

re: #186 Dianna

Dianna,

About the son, did you know he got an honorary degree in doctor of science from Cambridge?

Here is the background:

Leonard Darwin was born in 1850 in Down House in Kent, England. He was the last child to die from the Darwin-Wedgwood famliy. Born into the wealthy Darwin — Wedgwood family, he was the fourth son and eighth child of the British naturalist Charles Darwin and his wife Emma (née Wedgwood). He considered himself to be the least intelligent of their children (brothers Frank, George and Horace were all elected FRS) and was sent to Clapham School in 1862.

Darwin joined the Royal Engineers in 1871. Between 1877 and 1882 he worked for the Intelligence Division of the Ministry of War. He went on several scientific expeditions, including the Transits of Venus of 1874 and 1882.

In 1890 was promoted to the rank of Major. He left the army and from 1892 to 1895 was a Liberal Unionist Member of Parliament (MP) for Lichfield constituency in Staffordshire (his grandfather Josiah Wedgwood II had also been an MP). He wrote vigorously on the economic issues of the day, bimetallism, Indian currency reform and municipal trading.

He married Elizabeth Frances Fraser in July 1882, but she died on 13 January 1898. In 1900 he married his first cousin Charlotte Mildred Massingberd (1868–1940). She was daughter of Edmund Langton (1841-1875) and his second wife Charlotte Wedgwood. Their shared ancestor was their maternal grandfather Josiah Wedgwood II. Charlotte Mildred Massingberd's paternal grandfather Charles Langton (1801–1886) also married Charles Darwin's sister Emily Catherine Darwin after Charlotte Wedgwood's death. Since Charles Darwin and Emma Wedgwood were also cousins, Charlotte Mildred Massingberd was also a second cousin on his father's side. He had no children from either marriage.

He was Chairman of the British Eugenics Society between 1911-1928, (succeeding his half-cousin once removed Francis Galton), and became Honorary President from 1928 until his death. He was an officer of the Royal Geographical Society from 1908 to 1911, and then its president. In 1912 the University of Cambridge conferred on him the honorary degree of doctor of science.

Darwin played an important part in the life of the geneticist and statistician R.A. Fisher, supporting him intellectually, morally and sometimes financially. When Fisher was elected to the Royal Society Darwin naturally congratulated him. In reply Fisher wrote, "I knew you would be glad, and your pleasure is as good to me almost as though my own father were still living." (February 25, 1929) Darwin always treated Fisher with enormous tact and generosity. A perfect example came later in 1929. Some years before, after a disagreement, Fisher had resigned from the Royal Statistical Society. Darwin regretted the development and engineered Fisher's re-entry by making him the gift of a life-time subscription to the society. (Letters of 25 and 27 June.) Fisher's 1930 book The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection is dedicated to Darwin. After Darwin's death in 1943 Fisher wrote to Darwin's niece, Margaret Keynes, "My very dear friend Leonard Darwin... was surely the kindest and wisest man I ever knew".

Now, this introduction of RA Fisher in interesting...I dont know anything about him. I am going to research him...

264 gotha  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:42:08pm

re: #173 Thanos

Yes, they adapt by being the strongest. Tell me, who in your circle of friends has adapted best to survive. If you can't tell me, your "theory" is a joke.

265 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:42:12pm

So many open light sockets.

/too few fingers

266 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:42:30pm

re: #235 Occasional Reader

I don't quite agree. Race "exists" as a group of characteristics constituting share genetic inheritance. The fact that these characteristics are somewhat arbitrarily chosen (in a strictly biological sense) doesn't mean they aren't "real".

Race was derived by societies from the difference in physical appearances of some people from others. The decoding of the genome and subsequent analysis showed that random one-on-one comparisons of those of even the most stereotypical definitions of caucusoid, mongoloid, negroid and other less widespread "assumed" racial categories showed the undeniable evidence that the random difference between two people categorized as "of the same race" was indistinguishable from the random difference between two people categorized as of different races.

I don't know how much more clear the folly of racial differentiation could be exposed. We are all humans. There are no racial subtypes.

267 Ojoe  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:42:39pm

re: #230 Thanos

I do. I'm an architect. I've designed solar buildings, have some projects like that at the moment. You might check out this book:

"The Passive Solar Energy Book" (Professional Edition) by Mazria. Rodale Press.

A modest sized solar house saves about 300 gallons of heating oil per year in many US climates.

I'm out of here until tomorrow, good night All.

268 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:42:58pm

re: #260 MikeySDCA

No. You just don't seem to know what you're talking about.

You don't seem to be the person I was talking to unless you want to wear it dude... Do you ?

269 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:43:13pm

re: #226 Gagdad Bob

It was either a joke, or a very good question.

What do my dogs ponder in the depths of the night, when their gods have gone to bed?

270 stickdude  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:43:32pm

re: #257 Killgore Trout

Try to kill me or my family and I'll show you.

Why? They're just collections of chemicals formed by random chance over a long period of time.

You don't corner the market o valuing human life despite what you might think.

Never said I did. Buy why do we value human life so much?

271 newsjunkie_ky  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:43:36pm

re: #231 MandyManners

They teach the current, accepted theories.

This is an academy that produces National Merit Scholars, many who go on to preach The Word in distant lands.


My daughter was a National Merit Scholar and she doesn't believe we evolved from mud.

272 jaunte  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:43:56pm

re: #264 gotha

"Fittest" was the word used, and it didn't neccessarily mean "strongest." It could mean most adaptable, or most cooperative.

273 Psaturn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:44:13pm

re: #235 Occasional Reader

I don't quite agree. Race "exists" as a group of characteristics constituting share genetic inheritance. The fact that these characteristics are somewhat arbitrarily chosen (in a strictly biological sense) doesn't mean they aren't "real".

They do truly exist...

I am a health care professional and we use race as part of looking for certain diseases...some races are more prone to certain diseases or conditions to others...

I know....diseases are racists...who'd think ?

274 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:44:14pm

re: #262 Sharmuta

Evolution does not deal with the origin of the universe.

Evolution deals with the progression of life, a subset of the universe. And who knows what the universe is anyway? Please don't bother to answer.

275 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:44:33pm

re: #264 gotha

Yes, they adapt by being the strongest. Tell me, who in your circle of friends has adapted best to survive. If you can't tell me, your "theory" is a joke.

Survival isn't a {0,1} proposition. It's a scale. Who's surviving better, Eliot Spitzer or Bill Gates?

276 Max Darkside  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:44:33pm

re: #262 Sharmuta

Evolution does not deal with the origin of the universe.

I vote that G*D flicked something sparky onto a hot rock and boom, the universe was created. You see, we all evolved from energy, to Hydrogen, to Hu, the Human Element...

/damn commercials

277 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:44:49pm

Of course evolution deals with the origin of the universe, or rather, vice verse, since the former is constrained by aspects of the latter. In other words, it so happens that Darwinian evolution can only occur in a very specific kind of cosmos. Even Dawkins says this.

278 jcm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:44:50pm

re: #242 karmic_inquisitor

Funniest thing I have read all week!

"At every stage of this war, we have suffered because of disdain for diplomacy. . . .
We need to launch the most aggressive diplomatic effort in recent history to reach a new compact in the region.
This compact must secure Iraq’s borders, keep neighbors from meddling, isolate al Qaeda, and support Iraq’s
unity.”

Some how think it's we who disdain diplomacy, tell that to the guys who drive car bombs into a crowd of kids.

The actor is Iran, you going do a Chamberlain "Peace in Our Time" compact?

That last part has to be backed up... with force.

279 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:44:53pm

Mikey

Here's more on provenance

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

now if you are too slow to understand the double entendre, please move on

280 Cognito  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:44:57pm

Really Grumpy,

I think one reason you're not getting much feedback with your thought, there, is that it's both obviously true and obviously ridiculous, depending what you mean by 'race.'

There's no great genetic difference between people no matter where on the globe? Okay. No race.

Is there really no difference between the average Norwegian and the average Zimbabwean? Hey, they're different.

So it seems to me that you're simply playing on the way most people perceive race. They don't look at genetic strands. They look at physical characteristics.

281 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:44:58pm

re: #150 Gagdad Bob

If reductionistic Darwinists are correct that human beings are of no intrinsic worth and there can be no absolute truth -- let alone values -- then why are murder or rape wrong?

Intrisic worth is a matter of perspective.
The Universe doesn't give a shit about humanity or any of it's values.
There is no Absolute Truth. It is all relative. Murder and rape are perfectly OK in some cultures.

That is why Western culture and values must be defended vigorously. Because if you don't, God sure as hell won't. God fucks people over every day.

It is up to you to take a stand and defend it.

282 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:44:59pm

re: #270 stickdude

Never said I did. Buy why do we value human life so much?

Because those of a feather stick together.

283 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:45:10pm

re: #247 MandyManners

By gum, I DARE anyone here to tell me that I don't love The Kid because I don't demand he be taught A, B or C exclusively.

You don't love The Kid because you don't demand he be taught A, B or C exclusively! Ha! There, I said it!

284 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:45:34pm

re: #270 stickdude

Why? They're just collections of chemicals formed by random chance over a long period of time.


Self preservation. Go ahead, try it and we'll decide who values human life.

285 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:45:50pm

re: #243 Josephine

Marlowe?

286 Da_Beerfreak  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:45:58pm

re: #135 itellu3times

Yes. Fits in well.
// {;-)™

287 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:46:07pm

re: #269 Dianna

What do my dogs ponder in the depths of the night, when their gods have gone to bed?

"BACON! ! !"

288 Sarge1984  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:46:22pm

re: #245 realwest

RW! How are you tonight?

289 Dainn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:46:53pm

What is really scary about the third Reich was their very organized, systematic, empirical approach to a pseudo-science. They started with a preassumed belief of a racial hierarchy, then with that as an "axiom" proceeded in a very methodical way to develop an entire system of pseudo-science around it. Like all "scientific" endevors that evolve from a sacrosanct preassumption, the science that came after just further validated the preassumption, mainly because any possible disproofs were never published.

Science then became an excuse to validate the holocaust. Its okay to kill vermin, and their "science" "proved" just that. If your science proves that a certain race seen as a threat is subhuman, it becomes easy to justify their extermination.

For science to work, every belief must be testable and disprovable. Once a theory becomes True with a capital T the science that follows is suspect. The Nazi's are (as usual) just the most extreme example of this. Creation theory, global warming, stem cell research all have the same vulnerabilities.

Politics is rarely a good friend to science.

290 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:47:40pm

The problem is NOT oil.
The problem is NOT technology.
The problem is NOT humans.

The problem is TYRANNY.

291 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:47:54pm

re: #271 newsjunkie_ky

My daughter was a National Merit Scholar and she doesn't believe we evolved from mud.

Good for her!

292 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:48:44pm

re: #273 Psaturn

They do truly exist...

I am a health care professional and we use race as part of looking for certain diseases...some races are more prone to certain diseases or conditions to others...

I know....diseases are racists...who'd think ?

You mean that some people who have grown up in different societies are more susceptible to some diseases?

Big surprise. Environmental adaptations allow differing susceptibilities to diseases, depending upon what your geographic background is.

Please don't dumb us down with this.

293 stickdude  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:48:46pm

re: #284 Killgore Trout

Self preservation. Go ahead, try it and we'll decide who values human life.

Dude, you value human life. I get it.

How/why does a collection of chemicals formed by random chance over a long time even have a sense of "self' to preserve?

294 BGOH  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:48:47pm

Good Lord Charles, such a heavy topic for a Friday night! You should have posted this:

[Link: i167.photobucket.com...]

295 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:49:00pm

281:

In other words, might makes right. I agree with you that this is one of the ineluctable moral implications of reductionistic Darwinism. It cannot be otherwise.

But that simply isn't true. Truth is true, regardless of what people such as yourself feel about it.

296 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:49:15pm

re: #240 Gagdad Bob

Bacchus's daddy:

I'm curious. On what basis do you believe in absolute truth, being that Darwinism only allows for change, certainly not eternal truth? How does a completely relative being know the absolute?

I believe I said "absolute fact", and expressed uncertainty about "absolute truth". The terms are admittedly malleable, but I believe that there is an absolute reality- but an absolute "meaning" to that reality- I'm not sure. Maybe slightly OT, I am an adherent to Wittgenstein's later ideas in "Philosophical Investigations".

297 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:50:06pm

re: #283 Occasional Reader

You don't love The Kid because you don't demand he be taught A, B or C exclusively! Ha! There, I said it!

FUCK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.

298 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:50:21pm

The "master race" was a myth, and that's exactly what progressives need to offer the volk to gain a following- a myth.

299 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:50:31pm

Hey all. Jay Leno just gave a nice tribute to Tim Russert. He showed a clip of Tim on his show (promoting his book, Big Russ & Me), talking about his dad growing up in the Depression, and dropping out of the tenth grade to join the Army. Then coming home to work two jobs, to put his kids through school. Jay finished up by sending his prayers. Very classy.

300 ggt  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:50:34pm

Good Evening Lizards! In the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland is is Very, Very Dark.

How are you-all this FNDT and is it safe?

301 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:50:37pm

re: #257 Killgore Trout

Right on.

302 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:51:09pm

re: #287 Occasional Reader

Not the black mutt. That dog is too clever by half.

303 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:51:18pm

re: #280 Cognito

Really Grumpy,

I think one reason you're not getting much feedback with your thought, there, is that it's both obviously true and obviously ridiculous, depending what you mean by 'race.'

There's no great genetic difference between people no matter where on the globe? Okay. No race.

Is there really no difference between the average Norwegian and the average Zimbabwean? Hey, they're different.

So it seems to me that you're simply playing on the way most people perceive race. They don't look at genetic strands. They look at physical characteristics.

But through history Cognito, race was define as people of inferior intrinsic biological worth. It was part of the sword of racism that made it most effective as a weapon to unite societies against one another.

Next thing, we'll have races called pretties and uglys.

304 Cartman  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:51:28pm

I missed another evolution thread? Dammit!

/

305 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:51:41pm

re: #266 really grumpy big dog johnson

undeniable evidence that the random difference between two people categorized as "of the same race" was indistinguishable from the random difference between two people categorized as of different races

That's both a) true, and b) not quite relevant.

Wesley Snipes and I are considered to be of different "races", based mostly on the difference in our skin color (and hair texture and some other stuff, but let's keep it simple).

Now, given that Snipes is roughly the same physical size I am, it's quite likely that our genetic makeup has more in common that does mine with a "white" man who's seven feet tall; or his with a "black" man who is four feet tall.

But our skins are different colors because of real genetic differences, not because he spend more time at the beach than I do. And while it's true that you could just as well divide humanity into races according to blood type, you wouldn't wind up with any historically coherent patterns that way.

306 jc59  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:51:48pm

I don't think the Nazis believed that Nordics were Aryans; instead they believed that Nordics had, in the aggregate, the highest concentration of of Aryan blood. They realized that populations interacted.

Their plan was for the population to approach Aryan-hood asymptotically though successive (selective) breeding and murdering of the competition.

307 stickdude  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:51:49pm

re: #281 Dar ul Harbarian

There is no Absolute Truth. It is all relative. Murder and rape are perfectly OK in some cultures.

If there's no absolute truth, then why is this a problem? Whatever works for them and all, right?

308 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:52:07pm
309 JHW  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:52:12pm

It's been many years since I've schooling of any sort, I started getting interested in Molecular Biology when I was researching some bio-tech stocks. I ordered a copy of this book Molecular Biology...Made Simple and Fun
it is a fascinating book that lives up to it's title,lots of diagrams and fun facts that made learning the subject a lot easier than most of the textbooks I looked at. An excellent book for the layman, taken through college level material. It is strictly a scientific text , but presented in an interesting manner. I found this little anecdote in it.

'The Napoleonic Wars provided a fascinating example of eugenics by ignorance.Napoleon deliberately recruited tall men into the French Imperial Army [The Guards Regiments]. .....The combined result of constantly selecting tall men and subjecting them to massive casualties was that the average height of the French nation decreased significantly in this period."

I heartily recommend this book if you're anything like me (not up on the subject) and would like to learn more in a fun and relatively painless manner.

310 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:52:31pm

Oh goody another Friday Night Combusti...I mean, ID thread! Let's drop any pretense of civility and see if we can make it go supernova:

1) That Passion of the Christ movie was really good. Not a hint of anti-semitism in it either.

2) Vlaams Belang is just a conservative political party trying to salvage Dutch heritage. They're not affiliated with white supremacists in any way.

3) Terri Schiavo was murdered by her husband.

4) Abortion should be outlawed and those who have them should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

5) THE YANKEES SUCK!

311 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:52:31pm

This thread calls for an open bar - mosey on up!

What'll ya have?

312 realwest  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:53:06pm

re: #261 Killgore Trout
Ah shit, Killgore WHY do we keep having these stupid fights out here.
I believe in God. I also believe Jesus Christ was the Messiah and died for our sins. I also believe in Evolution and reject absolutely and completely the idea that Darwinism led to Hitler and Nazi's.
Who wants to fight over that? I don't frankly give a damn if people don't believe in God, or in Jesus Christ as those beliefs are to me, a matter of personal faith.That Darwinism led to Hitler is just too ludicrous for anyone to believe. Well, I guess except for Ben Stein.
So why are LGFer's fighting over this?

313 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:53:13pm

Bacchus daddy:

There is no such thing as an "absolute fact." A fact, by definition, can only be recognized in a larger context. Besides, if there is an "absolute fact," then there is obviously an absolute knower, something that vastly exceeds anything Darwinism can explain.

314 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:53:17pm

re: #294 BGOH

Good Lord Charles, such a heavy topic for a Friday night! You should have posted this:

[Link: i167.photobucket.com...]

And, this.

[Link: www.freedomisnotfree.com...]

315 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:53:19pm

re: #293 stickdude

You just dead-ended at the problem of consciousness, and that's not exactly amenable to easy discussion.

316 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:53:31pm

re: #294 BGOH

Good Lord Charles, such a heavy topic for a Friday night! You should have posted this:

[Link: i167.photobucket.com...]

I've gotten that picture with an email titled, "My Resimay".

317 mich-again  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:53:33pm

Why do we have a robot digging up dirt on Mars? I heard it was looking for water. But I bet a lot of people are hoping for more than that.

Lizard eggs..

318 newsjunkie_ky  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:53:42pm

re: #291 MandyManners

If you want the Kid to succeed, and we know you do, teach him, read to him constantly, provide books of all kinds and most of all, spend time with him.
Never get tired of answering a why question.
My daughter got a full ride to a private university and partial ride to med school. And I raised her by myself.

319 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:53:44pm

So Obama wants to bring a "brutal warlord" in Africa to justice:

Bring a Brutal Warlord to Justice: Former Liberian President Charles Taylor has been accused of committing war crimes by international prosecutors. Taylor created a rebel group that committed a range of atrocities including rape, murder, and the use of child soldiers in neighboring Sierra Leone. Barack Obama passed a bipartisan amendment to provide $13 million for the Special Court for Sierra Leone to bring Charles Taylor to justice. Taylor was arrested in 2006 and awaits trial in April 2007.

So what about bringing his cousin to justice?

Naaaaa.

320 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:54:22pm

Some of you are no doubt wondering why I keep probing this sore tooth.

It's because I sincerely believe that this is a regressive, destructive, anti-science movement promoted by a dishonest special interest group. I have a deep aversion to being fooled by fanatics.

Of any stripe.

And as I always point out in these threads, the far right in America and the Islamofascists in the Middle East totally agree on this issue. Islam is just as opposed to evolutionary science as the Discovery Institute.

321 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:54:29pm

re: #110 Muadib

I would, but somehow I always lose that game.

322 Psaturn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:54:34pm

re: #231 MandyManners

Mandy Manners...

I was taught Darwinism too...since I majored in Biology...

And of course I never told you anything about how to raise your kids! I know you are doing the best job possible!

The thing is that the Common Descent that is the theme of evolutionism is in direct contradiction of Genesis in my opinion.

Since I am a Christian, I had to do deep research behind it...

What I found was quite interesting...and I think this is what Ben Stein was addressing in his movie Expelled.

Evolutionism by itself is a belief system based on a scientific fact of evolution. Note how they support evolutionism by using examples such as the moths that change colors in England, bacterial mutations etc...

But the problem is that no one has shown verifiable reproducible examples of one class of type of living things becoming another class....like from amphibians to mammals.

You'd think that if it happened in the past, it would occur today.

Of course you have the argument that it took millions of years.

It is the argument of millions of years that makes it a BELIEF as opposed to a scientifcally verifiable reproducible statement.

Remember a thread here about Lizards in Croatia that EVOLVED in 30 years? Scientists were shocked at the rapid evolution of these lizards, thinking those type of things would have taken MILLIONS OF YEARS...

323 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:55:00pm

re: #310 Dirk Diggler

Oh goody another Friday Night Combusti...I mean, ID thread! Let's drop any pretense of civility and see if we can make it go supernova:

1) That Passion of the Christ movie was really good. Not a hint of anti-semitism in it either.

2) Vlaams Belang is just a conservative political party trying to salvage Dutch heritage. They're not affiliated with white supremacists in any way.

3) Terri Schiavo was murdered by her husband.

4) Abortion should be outlawed and those who have them should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I spewed snot all over the place reading the first few lines.

5) THE YANKEES SUCK!

324 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:55:34pm

re: #319 karmic_inquisitor

Link to Obama's official policy position on Africa from which I got the War Crimes quote.

325 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:55:41pm

re: #106 DistantThunder

Can we see neutrinos? or do we just know they are there? That's science.

It is possible to see neutrinos...just not with the naked eye.

326 ggt  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:55:48pm

re: #309 JHW

Put in in the BOOK link category. That way we can find it when we are trying to remember it to order it.

HA!

327 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:55:48pm

re: #264 gotha

re: #264 gotha

re: #264 gotha

Yes, they adapt by being the strongest. Tell me, who in your circle of friends has adapted best to survive. If you can't tell me, your "theory" is a joke.

The friend best adapted is more likely to have the most descendants 2,000 years from now. If the question can't be answered "now" the theory is a joke?

328 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:55:51pm

re: #305 Occasional Reader

That's both a) true, and b) not quite relevant.

Wesley Snipes and I are considered to be of different "races", based mostly on the difference in our skin color (and hair texture and some other stuff, but let's keep it simple).

Now, given that Snipes is roughly the same physical size I am, it's quite likely that our genetic makeup has more in common that does mine with a "white" man who's seven feet tall; or his with a "black" man who is four feet tall.

But our skins are different colors because of real genetic differences, not because he spend more time at the beach than I do. And while it's true that you could just as well divide humanity into races according to blood type, you wouldn't wind up with any historically coherent patterns that way.

You and Wesley are roughly equally likely by a roll of the dice to be more or less related to each other than anyone else on earth.

Can you grasp that concept?

329 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:55:53pm

re: #307 stickdude

The question, generally, is, "what works best over-all?"

330 swamprat  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:56:05pm

Ben Stein says that Hitler used evolution to further his goals. And now we know that the genetic premise that Hitler put forth was invalid because the Scandinavian gene pool wasn't stagnant. Non Sequitur.This has nothing to do with the evolution/intelligent design debate. Hitler used a flawed and racist arguement to advance totalitarian oppression. He was also known to lie outright. This, in itself, does not invalidate Steins contention. The debate goes on, but this neither supports or refutes it

331 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:56:10pm

re: #310 Dirk Diggler

Your post was far from kosher.

But what IS kosher, really?

332 zmdavid  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:56:27pm

Here is the most pro-ID site I've ever seen:

[Link: www.arn.org...]

Have at it pros and cons.

333 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:56:30pm

A brief comic interlude...

Pimpin' ain't easy

334 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:56:36pm

That's it! I'm an Islamist!

335 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:56:41pm

re: #307 stickdude

If there's no absolute truth, then why is this a problem? Whatever works for them and all, right?

Wrong.
I have the balls to make judgements and defend them.
To deny that power is to deny one's humanity.
Just because the Universe is amoral doesn't mean I have to be.

336 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:57:03pm

re: #317 mich-again

Why do we have a robot digging up dirt on Mars? I heard it was looking for water. But I bet a lot of people are hoping for more than that.

Lizard eggs..

The spectrometer on the rover was built here in Dallas, at the University of Texas at Dallas (UT-Dallas).

/okay, so it's actually located in richardson

337 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:57:11pm

re: #330 swamprat

Ben Stein says that Hitler used evolution to further his goals. And now we know that the genetic premise that Hitler put forth was invalid because the Scandinavian gene pool wasn't stagnant. Non Sequitur.This has nothing to do with the evolution/intelligent design debate. Hitler used a flawed and racist arguement to advance totalitarian oppression. He was also known to lie outright. This, in itself, does not invalidate Steins contention. The debate goes on, but this neither supports or refutes it

The entire argument is deceptive.

338 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:57:34pm

re: #281 Dar ul Harbarian

Very well put!

339 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:57:39pm

re: #330 swamprat

Which contention? The one where he says "Science Kills People?"

340 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:57:41pm

re: #154 Psaturn

Darwin...

Gore...

Both qualified to tell us how the world works...right?

341 Intrepid  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:57:45pm

re: #231 MandyManners

They teach the current, accepted theories.

This is an academy that produces National Merit Scholars, many who go on to preach The Word in distant lands.

Then I love them. Whoever they are.

/former missionary here, but in no way a scholar of merit

342 Sharmuta  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:57:49pm

re: #333 Noam Sayin'

Hey- thanks for reminding me! I've been saving this comic for just such a thread.

343 Psaturn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:57:57pm

re: #292 really grumpy big dog johnson

You mean that some people who have grown up in different societies are more susceptible to some diseases?

Big surprise. Environmental adaptations allow differing susceptibilities to diseases, depending upon what your geographic background is.

Please don't dumb us down with this.

I dont know what you mean about "growing up in different societies"?

African Americans are more prone to certain medical conditions no matter where they live or what societies they live.

Same thing with Chinese, they are prone to certain medical conditions than other races.

Same thing with Hispanics...

And so on...and so on...

344 mich-again  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:57:58pm

re: #320 Charles

I have a deep aversion to being fooled by fanatics.

Of any stripe.

Sounds like something else I read a while back.

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man."
345 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:58:00pm

re: #293 stickdude

How/why does a collection of chemicals formed by random chance over a long time even have a sense of "self' to preserve?


Wanna try me?

346 gotha  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:58:00pm

re: #272 jaunte

So please tell me, how do we determine the most "fittest" human beings? As in, the ones that will propagate the race. How do we pick the "fittest" wolves, the fittest dogs, the fittest snakes, the fittest rats, the fittest cats, etc. Afterall, we had better be able to identify this class in order for it to be a theory, right? Being able to identify an individual class (the fittest, in this case) is still necessary for theory formation, isn't it. Or isn't it?

347 BGOH  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:58:14pm

re: #314 MandyManners

I'm certainly not that drunk yet!

348 Purple Prose  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:58:14pm

re: #12 hermeneutics

Link from gnxp.com:

Lesbians against Lesbianism -

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

1:02 is funny.

349 gman  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:58:25pm

Viking researchers have known for many years that the vikings traded with countries far to the East and South. They also kept slaves brought back from raids and from countries that they traded with. The slaves had "relations" with vikings and the end result was a very diverse group of people living in Scandinavia.

The term "thrall" or slave in the viking culture was even known to Roman historian Tacitus in AD 98. The historical research on diversity in Scandinavia has been around for a long time. Obviously, Hitler and his minions chose to overlook these unsavory details in favor of the ideal of "Nordic" purity.

350 ted  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:58:26pm

Three races.
Negroid: Mongoloid: Caucasoid.

Genetic differences: practically zero

351 stickdude  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:58:33pm

re: #315 Dianna

You just dead-ended at the problem of consciousness, and that's not exactly amenable to easy discussion.

I know. That's where I was heading. :)

Are there purely naturalistic explanations for why some collections of chemicals are "conscious" and others aren't? I'm actually curious to find out.

352 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:58:43pm

And because there are apparently people who still don't know about it:

The Wedge Strategy.

353 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:59:16pm

re: #334 Gagdad Bob

That's it! I'm an Islamist!

No, but Harun Yahya is.

354 Cognito  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:59:26pm

re: #328 really grumpy big dog johnson

You and Wesley are roughly equally likely by a roll of the dice to be more or less related to each other than anyone else on earth.

Can you grasp that concept?

I think Occasional Reader and I have roughly the same point: You're measuring 'race' by a stick that has nothing to do with the common meaning of 'race.'

A potato and an apple may share many properties, organically. But they're not the same thing in appearance, taste, feel, and so forth. (Neither being inherently better than the other, of course.)

So, again: Yes, of course people are more or less all genetically identical. But no, people don't all share the same physical characterstics.

I just depends how you define 'race.'

355 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:59:41pm

I don't see how Stein's argument is any less deceptive than the claim that people who believe in ID are creationists or Islamists. Both are scurrilous.

356 gotha  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 8:59:50pm

re: #327 Bacchus's daddy

And that my friend is a mere tautology. A truism. That is not a theory. In theory formation, you must be able to identify an individual class (the fittest) before they die. Otherwise, you don't have a theory, my friend.

357 Pastorius  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:00:21pm

Charles,
I am not a supporter of Creationism or Intelligent Design Theory (which I see more as a philosophical quest, than a scientific theory).

However, it seems clear to me that Hitler made an argument about racial purity based upon faulty science. The argument, nonetheless, had philosophical consequences for the Nazis, and for German society in general.

It would seem that Stein's argument was that Hitler used the ideas of Darwinian Evolution to support his philosohy.

Did Ben Stein say that Evolution led to the Holocaust?

Or, did he say that Darwinian theory is expressed in a series of ideas (natural selection - survival of the fittest) which became the basis of Hitler's philosophy?

I'm guessing it was the latter.

Remember, scientific theory works when it has evidence. The language expressing theory is merely a sign pointing the way to the evidence.

Don't confuse the evidence with the language used to point the way to the evidence.

358 jaunte  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:00:43pm

re: #346 gotha

So please tell me, how do we determine the most "fittest" human beings? As in, the ones that will propagate the race. How do we pick the "fittest" wolves, the fittest dogs, the fittest snakes, the fittest rats, the fittest cats, etc. Afterall, we had better be able to identify this class in order for it to be a theory, right? Being able to identify an individual class (the fittest, in this case) is still necessary for theory formation, isn't it. Or isn't it?


"We" don't unless you're a woman looking for a husband to raise children with.
You know, or can speculate on, the qualifications for that.
The dogs, snakes, rats, cats, etc. are on their own.

359 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:00:44pm

re: #349 gman

Viking researchers

Now I'm picturing guys wearing helmets with horns on them, but wearing white lab coats.

360 ted  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:01:23pm

re: #337 Charles

The entire argument is deceptive.

Many have argued this.

Human genome differences are statistically insignificant by race

361 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:01:26pm

re: #357 Pastorius

Charles,
I am not a supporter of Creationism or Intelligent Design Theory (which I see more as a philosophical quest, than a scientific theory).

However, it seems clear to me that Hitler made an argument about racial purity based upon faulty science. The argument, nonetheless, had philosophical consequences for the Nazis, and for German society in general.

It would seem that Stein's argument was that Hitler used the ideas of Darwinian Evolution to support his philosohy.

Did Ben Stein say that Evolution led to the Holocaust?

Or, did he say that Darwinian theory is expressed in a series of ideas (natural selection - survival of the fittest) which became the basis of Hitler's philosophy?

I'm guessing it was the latter.

Remember, scientific theory works when it has evidence. The language expressing theory is merely a sign pointing the way to the evidence.

Don't confuse the evidence with the language used to point the way to the evidence.

I repeat: Stein told The New York Times last year that, were it up to him, he would call the movie, “From Darwin to Hitler.”

362 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:01:50pm
363 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:02:13pm

The list of brilliant thinkers who believe in ID but are not creationists is as long as the list of people who don't believe in the climate hysteria but aren't paid by the oil companies.

364 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:02:14pm

re: #343 Psaturn

I dont know what you mean about "growing up in different societies"?

African Americans are more prone to certain medical conditions no matter where they live or what societies they live.

Same thing with Chinese, they are prone to certain medical conditions than other races.

Same thing with Hispanics...

And so on...and so on...

And just exactly why does this dovetail into the logic of race? My mind is spinning here.

365 cicero05  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:02:20pm

re: #346 gotha

So please tell me, how do we determine the most "fittest" human beings? As in, the ones that will propagate the race. How do we pick the "fittest" wolves, the fittest dogs, the fittest snakes, the fittest rats, the fittest cats, etc. Afterall, we had better be able to identify this class in order for it to be a theory, right? Being able to identify an individual class (the fittest, in this case) is still necessary for theory formation, isn't it. Or isn't it?

The "fittest" of anything only refers to the mutation or genetic variation that is best suited to survive and reproduce under the existing local conditions. It doesn't mean "superior" in an abstract sense.

366 BGOH  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:02:21pm

I have HOPE that this thread will CHANGE into one about drinking and boobs!

367 jaunte  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:02:25pm

re: #359 Occasional Reader

Horns are for mead!

368 esch  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:02:39pm

re: #352 Charles

Wow. For a few seconds I thought it was some kind of fake, like the so-called "protocols".

*shakes head*

369 JHW  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:02:59pm

re: #326 ggt

Gotcha! I'll Do that. The book is almost all 5 star reviews at Amazon and rated highly by many professionals in the field.

370 Dianna  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:03:07pm

re: #351 stickdude

I'm fascinated by the question, and have no answer.

371 Boogberg  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:03:48pm

re: #233 BGOH

Then perhaps you'll enjoy....THIS!

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

/Seriously, someone is going to search on Youtube on my computer and think I look up nothing but boobs all day. Somehow, I'm OK with that.

Awesome! lol

When the lizards were discussing where to redirect those Digg idiots, I couldn't think of anything more disgusting than where I've been myself. Oh well! :D

372 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:03:50pm

re: #368 esch

Wow. For a few seconds I thought it was some kind of fake, like the so-called "protocols".

*shakes head*

It's not a fake. This is who is behind the "intellligent design" hoax.

The Wedge Strategy.

373 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:04:08pm

I suspect it's a special way that Jews prepare food.

It probably also involves an equal measure of hoarding gold, displacing Palestinian moppets, and plotting world domination.

/

374 mich-again  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:04:09pm

re: #355 Gagdad Bob

I don't see how Stein's argument is any less deceptive than the claim that people who believe in ID are creationists...


Huh? How can someone believe in ID and not be a creationist?

375 realwest  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:04:16pm

re: #310 Dirk Diggler
THe YANKEES do NOT SUCK!

376 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:04:25pm

re: #314 MandyManners

And, this.

[Link: www.freedomisnotfree.com...]

Stone sober this works for me!

[ducking slap from better half]

377 ted  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:04:30pm

Scientific racism

Scientific racism is a term which describes the use of ostensibly scientific methods to support or validate racist attitudes and worldviews. It encompasses both obsolete and contemporary scientific theories, usually made from a racialist belief in the existence and significance of racial categories, but extending this into a hierarchy between the races to support political or ideological positions of racial supremacy. Scientific racism includes the use of anthropology (notably physical anthropology), anthropometry, craniometry, phrenology, physiognomy and other disciplines in the construction of typologies and the classification of humans into distinct biological races.
Critics argue that such theories are simply propaganda; false ideological justifications for racism, the Holocaust, slavery, apartheid, and colonialism.
Scientific racialism was most wide-spread during the New Imperialism period in the second half of the 19th century. These theories often worked in conjunction with racism, for example in the case of "human zoos", in which human beings of various races were presented in cages during colonial exhibitions. Such theories, and associated actions, have been strongly denounced since World War II and the Holocaust, in particular by a 1950 UNESCO statement, signed by an international group of scholars, known as The Race Question.
Today, the phrase is used either as an accusation, or to describe what critics consider to be historical racist propaganda alleging the existence of different races. These critics point to The Race Question, which advocates the use of the more precise term "ethnic group".
The phrase "scientific racism" has been applied retroactively to publications on race as far back as the 18th century.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

378 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:04:59pm

re: #375 realwest

THe YANKEES do NOT SUCK!

No.

They blow.

379 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:05:05pm

re: #355 Gagdad Bob

Because Al-Ghazaliplunged Islam into the pit of ignorance by disputing Greek philosophy of empiricism in favour of theocratic "science". Why emulate the ignorance and mistakes of the Islamic world?

380 stickdude  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:05:13pm

re: #345 Killgore Trout

Wanna try me?

I'm trying to find a purely naturalistic explanation for the consciousness and "intrinsic worth" of humans. You seem to be looking for a fight.

So, no, I'm not going to "try you".

381 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:05:37pm

Ooops! My last was directed at OR's #331.

382 Psaturn  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:05:43pm

re: #320 Charles

Some of you are no doubt wondering why I keep probing this sore tooth.

It's because I sincerely believe that this is a regressive, destructive, anti-science movement promoted by a dishonest special interest group. I have a deep aversion to being fooled by fanatics.

Of any stripe.

And as I always point out in these threads, the far right in America and the Islamofascists in the Middle East totally agree on this issue. Islam is just as opposed to evolutionary science as the Discovery Institute.

Charles, I understand very well your position.

But note that IDer supporters are themselves SCIENTISTS...and they were NOT ANTI SCIENCE...

All the IDers that Ben Stein interviewed were scientists or philosophers...with one exception, Dr Sternberg claimed to be an evolutionist.

I have three degrees in sciences and one in humanity and I am definitely NOT ANTI SCIENCE...

About fanaticism...well...I don' think I am one...

383 mikalm  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:05:46pm

re: #181 Reno911

I'm forming a new religion.

It's called "Guns and Guitars".

Our God(s) are (in no particular order) Leo Fender, Les Paul, and Gerald Bull.

We believe in ID and Evolution. No arguing here.

Send me a buck and I will swear you in.

If it's "Guns and Guitars," I nominate for inclusion the Holy Prophet David Marshall Williams.

384 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:05:51pm

re: #328 really grumpy big dog johnson

You and Wesley are roughly equally likely by a roll of the dice to be more or less related to each other than anyone else on earth.

Can you grasp that concept?

First of all, drop the condescenscion. Thanks.

Secondly, you're still not getting my point. Yes, I could be Wesley's first cousin. But if you were to look at the two of us, you'd be right to guess that we aren't. And there are historical reasons for that. The characteristics that were grouped together to call "race" were not randomly chosen; they relate to different groups of humans developing in different parts of the world. And again, if you try to search for a time when AB positive blood groups enslaved O negatives, you'll probably come up dry. But "race", as we define it, yields historically coherent patterns. Yes, that's self-defining and self-perpetuating... but that's kind of the point.

385 Cognito  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:05:59pm

re: #361 Charles

I repeat: Stein told The New York Times last year that, were it up to him, he would call the movie, “From Darwin to Hitler.”

My understanding of Stein's point -- and honestly, I've got no real stake in this argument beyond general intrigue -- was that he wanted to display how science without morality can be a wayward tool.

In other words, instead of comparing Darwin to Hitler, he wanted to illustrate how we'd gone from Darwin to Hitler.

Holding to that idea, it's possible to say that science -- like money, information, a steak knife, whatever -- isn't inherently anything. Quoth the mighty Eric Clapton: "It's in the way that you use it."

Have I misunderstood Stein, on this?

386 ggt  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:06:05pm

re: #346 gotha


I think the "fittest" is defined by whose DNA survives. i.e, who survives long enough to have children and whose children survive long enough to have children etc.

387 gotha  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:06:07pm

re: #358 jaunte

The fact that "we don't" means that you DON'T have a theory. This is how poor our logic education has become in this country. We don't even understand what qualifies as a theory.

388 Gagdad Bob  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:06:11pm

Michagain:

I write about ID all the time, and I've never even met a creationist, much less read one of their books.

389 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:06:27pm

re: #313 Gagdad Bob

Bacchus daddy:

There is no such thing as an "absolute fact." A fact, by definition, can only be recognized in a larger context. Besides, if there is an "absolute fact," then there is obviously an absolute knower, something that vastly exceeds anything Darwinism can explain.

I guess we differ in what we define as "absolute fact" (and you argue for absolute truth but against absolute fact?). Maybe the "absolute" adjective is getting in the way here. Is it not fact that the Celtics won last night, according to the final scoreboard tally of 97-91? See- this is what I believe is incontrovertible. If someone changes the terms of the argument and says by "winning" I mean playing a "superior game", then we have no absolute fact or truth because which team played a "superior" game depends on how you define superior, what your criteria are, etc. But the absolute fact remains, that at the end of the game, the Celtics had more points on the scoreboad.

390 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:06:40pm

re: #382 Psaturn

Charles, I understand very well your position.

But note that IDer supporters are themselves SCIENTISTS...and they were NOT ANTI SCIENCE...

All the IDers that Ben Stein interviewed were scientists or philosophers...with one exception, Dr Sternberg claimed to be an evolutionist.

I have three degrees in sciences and one in humanity and I am definitely NOT ANTI SCIENCE...

About fanaticism...well...I don' think I am one...

No, they are not scientists. The technical term for ID advocates posing as scientists is: frauds.

391 mich-again  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:06:44pm

re: #363 Gagdad Bob

The list of brilliant thinkers who believe in ID but are not creationists is as long as the list of people who don't believe in the climate hysteria but aren't paid by the oil companies.

You used to make more sense when you told jokes. Now I read it 3 times and I'm still not sure what you meant.

my dog told me to say that.

392 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:07:11pm

re: #295 Gagdad Bob

281:

In other words, might makes right. I agree with you that this is one of the ineluctable moral implications of reductionistic Darwinism. It cannot be otherwise.

But that simply isn't true. Truth is true, regardless of what people such as yourself feel about it.

What truth is True?
Rape is bad? Numerous cultures have abused women through the ages. American style women's rights is an aberation that must be defended against the record of history.
Murder is wrong? Murder is as natural a human activity as making love or taking a shit.

Tell me, what Absolute Truth are you talking about? Aside from the second law of thermodynamics, the speed of light, and other such physical laws, I can't think of any at the moment, through my Tequilla infused brain.

393 MandyManners  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:07:20pm

re: #347 BGOH

I'm certainly not that drunk yet!

I'm spending the weekend contemplating chopping off my hair.

394 Pastorius  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:07:34pm

Charles,

I am not a scientist. I have not studied The Origin of Species. I studied Philosophy.

What I do know is that the concept of Natural Selection/Survival of the Fittest became trendy in the late 19th century and through the mid part of the 20th century. Nietzsche espoused the concept for its philosophical connotations. So did H.S. Chamberlain, if I am not mistaken. Hitler was profoundly influenced by Chamberlain and Nietzsche.

Once again, the ideas of natural selection and survival of the fittest only point the way to the evidence (for evolution of species) and serve as an explanation. They are a model of reality, not reality itself.

395 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:07:35pm

I want those who want to argue about "how" you define race to state specifically the justifications for why they support race as a genetic construct. Because that's what it's always been at the root of the argument put forth by societies.

You cannot simply assert that because you have the "correct" interpretation of race that it somehow magically exists. That's nonsense.

If race is suddenly no longer a genetic argument, then what kind of argument exists, except for blind dogma?

396 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:07:36pm

re: #380 stickdude


I'm not going to "try you".


Then don't pretend that you value your life more than I value mine. You know it's not true as much as I do.

397 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:07:37pm

re: #320 Charles

The world is in sore need of a neo-rational movement.

398 gman  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:07:51pm

re: #359 Occasional Reader

Now I'm picturing guys wearing helmets with horns on them, but wearing white lab coats.

If you're going to do it, have fun doing it.

399 gotha  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:07:52pm

re: #386 ggt

GGT, read #387

400 ted  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:08:04pm

Creationism debunked in a 1:23 minute video:

401 traveler[deleted]  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:08:09pm
402 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:08:22pm

re: #379 Killgore Trout

Because Al-Ghazaliplunged Islam into the pit of ignorance by disputing Greek philosophy of empiricism in favour of theocratic "science". Why emulate the ignorance and mistakes of the Islamic world?

Because if things keep going the way they are going we won't have a choice.

Now, not even self-respecting narcotics dealers in custody can avoid rubbing elbows with Sheik Mohammed bin-Rashid al Maq-Kill'em All.

403 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:08:32pm

re: #381 Dirk Diggler

Ooops! My last was directed at OR's #331.

F**k you, you f**king f**k of a f**kjob f**k!

(I kid the Dirkster)

404 guzziguy  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:08:51pm

Down toward the bottom of the Ireland thread I posted about today's Patriot Guard mission in Oklahoma. Here are a couple of related links.

[Link: www.pgrok.org...] Other's take on today's mission. Click on forums/current missions/Hagerty part 2. Down through page 3 the thread is all about planning. The reflections begin on page 4. This one will soon move 1 link lower into the completed missions category.

[Link: www.news9.com...] An OKC TV station. Over on the right is a video link. One of the videos is a story about today. There's a link to the video contained in the pgrok thread above.

405 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:08:53pm

re: #394 Pastorius

Nietzsche espoused the concept for its philosophical connotations.


Link?

406 joecitizen  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:08:57pm

re: #177 really grumpy big dog johnson

It's unbelievable that otherwise thinking people completely gloss over and ignore the truth that I've just spoken.

I'm flabbergasted.

Is truth that scary?


no..just that kinda balls up arrogance.

407 Cognito  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:09:18pm

re: #395 really grumpy big dog johnson

I want those who want to argue about "how" you define race to state specifically the justifications for why they support race as a genetic construct.

That's just it, Really Grumpy. We don't support race as a 'genetic construct.' And neither do millions of other people.

408 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:09:25pm

re: #384 Occasional Reader


condescenscion

Gah. My spelling wasn't very intelligently designed, now was it.

409 mich-again  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:09:35pm

re: #395 really grumpy big dog johnson

Perception is reality.

410 Pastorius  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:09:36pm

Charles,

That being said, I agree with you that "the Wedge strategy" (which I was not familiar with) will have a regressive effect on culture to the extent that its proponents are successful in putting across their ideas.

411 Charles  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:09:43pm

re: #385 Cognito

My understanding of Stein's point -- and honestly, I've got no real stake in this argument beyond general intrigue -- was that he wanted to display how science without morality can be a wayward tool.

In other words, instead of comparing Darwin to Hitler, he wanted to illustrate how we'd gone from Darwin to Hitler.

Holding to that idea, it's possible to say that science -- like money, information, a steak knife, whatever -- isn't inherently anything. Quoth the mighty Eric Clapton: "It's in the way that you use it."

Have I misunderstood Stein, on this?

I've seen the movie. Have you? I'm speaking about what I saw in the movie, and Ben Stein absolutely does say that Darwinian evolution led directly to the Third Reich. He says it over and over, and in interviews he has expanded on it. It's not even debatable.

412 jaunte  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:09:50pm

re: #387 gotha

Darwin's theory of evolution is based on five key observations and inferences drawn from them. These observations and inferences have been summarized by the great biologist Ernst Mayr as follows:
1) Species have great fertility. They make more offspring than can grow to adulthood.
2) Populations remain roughly the same size, with modest fluctuations.
3) Food resources are limited, but are relatively constant most of the time.
From these three observations it may be inferred that in such an environment there will be a struggle for survival among individuals.
4)In sexually reproducing species, generally no two individuals are identical. Variation is rampant.
5) Much of this variation is heritable.

From this it may be inferred: In a world of stable populations where each individual must struggle to survive, those with the "best" characteristics will be more likely to survive, and those desirable traits will be passed to their offspring. These advantageous characteristics are inherited by following generations, becoming dominant among the population through time. This is natural selection. It may be further inferred that natural selection, if carried far enough, makes changes in a population, eventually leading to new species. These observations have been amply demonstrated in biology, and even fossils demonstrate the veracity of these observations.

To summarise Darwin's Theory of Evolution;
1. Variation: There is Variation in Every Population.
2. Competition: Organisms Compete for limited resources.
3. Offspring: Organisms produce more Offspring than can survive.
4. Genetics: Organisms pass Genetic traits on to their offspring.
5. Natural Selection: Those organisms with the Most Beneficial Traits
are more likely to Survive and Reproduce.

Darwin imagined it might be possible that all life is descended from an original species from ancient times. DNA evidence supports this idea.
Probably all organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial life form. There is grandeur in this view of life that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved. (Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species)

413 brainwizard73  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:09:57pm

re: #393 MandyManners

I'm spending the weekend contemplating chopping off my hair.

I swear every woman in my office is doing that. For some odd reason, it looks great on every one of them and they seem happy with it.

(went out on limb there assuming you were female...I don't know many men that would refer to "chopping" hair)

414 wolfie  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:10:44pm

re: #205 MikeySDCA

Sorry, Charles, but the fact that what the Nazis believed was bs does not change the fact that they believed it and acted on it.

Ben Stein is of course an idiot, but a stopped clock is right twice a day. Social Darwinism was very big in that period, and led to many horrific things, not least in this country. The Germans went the furthest, and I offer no excuses for the inexcusable, but context should be remembered.

The mistake you are making, I believe, is in assuming that what we call "social Darwinism" is derived from evolutionary science or at least from Darwin. It isn't. You can easily trace the history of "social Darwinism" to thinkers that pre-dated Darwin's scientific work.

The 19th century was full of theories of progress that claimed a "scientific" basis. Pseudo-biological explanations of history were very popular. When Darwin's science became well-known, many thinkers of these progressive schools claimed to be Darwinian, and the term "social Darwinism" was coined.
The most you can say is that scientific Darwinism indirectedly lent credence to "social Darwinism."

The same thing happened, BTW, with Einstein's theory of relativity, if on a smaller scale. The popularity of theories of moral and cultural relativism long ante-dated Einstein. But after his work became widely recognized, many social theorists did not hesitate to claim that their views were now proven by Einstein to be "scientific."

415 Thanos  Fri, Jun 13, 2008 9:10:47pm