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Friday Night Science Thread

Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 7:44:16 pm PDT

Ben Stein’s contention that Darwinian evolution led directly to the Nazi Holocaust is destroyed by genetic science.

The theory of Scandinavian racial purity cherished by Hitler and the Nazis has been rubbished by new scientific research.

The study found that bodies from 2000-year-old burial sites in eastern Denmark contained “as much genetic variation in their remains as one would expect to find in individuals of the present day”.

The findings, in an analysis by the University of Copenhagen which has just been published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, explodes the Nazis’ much cherished concept of a ‘superior’ Nordic race.

Hitler used pseudo-scientific research to back up claims that northern Europeans could form a Master Race which would lead mankind, and even set up a breeding program between Germans and Norwegians to foster it.

The racist theory, which placed the Master Race at the top of mankind’s hierarchy and Jews at the bottom, played a central role in the Holocaust. But according to the new research, the “concept of a single Scandinavian genetic type, a Scandinavian race that wandered to Denmark, settled there, and otherwise lived in complete isolation from the rest of the world, is a fallacy”.

Far from being isolated and ‘genetically pure’, the study on the burial sites found that Danes mixed with peoples from across the globe.

“It becomes clear that the Danes must have been in contact with other peoples,” said scientist Linea Melchior, who analysed DNA from the Bøgebjerggard and Skovgaarde sites.

(Hat tip: Josephine.)

1415 comments

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1 paint-right  6/13/08 7:46:59 pm reply quote 0

I'm Danish.

2 The Albatross  6/13/08 7:47:28 pm reply quote 0

Far and away too tired to bother with this one. Knock yourselves out lizards... I bid you adeiu.

3 paint-right  6/13/08 7:47:46 pm reply quote 1

Plus some other stuff that my people were in contact with.

4 SpartanWoman  6/13/08 7:47:48 pm reply quote 0

Why am I not shocked that the nazis were wrong about that too?

'Night oh Great Lizard

5 Sharmuta  6/13/08 7:47:59 pm reply quote 9

Hitler- now more wrong then ever.

6 experiencedtraveller  6/13/08 7:48:28 pm reply quote 2

A man has free choice to the extent that he is rational.

-Aquinas

7 JeremyR  6/13/08 7:48:30 pm reply quote 0

Will there be a test?

8 newsjunkie_ky  6/13/08 7:48:40 pm reply quote 1

But hitler believed it to be true.

9 The Albatross  6/13/08 7:48:43 pm reply quote 0

re: #1 paint-right

So am I. I'll read up later. Like in the morning instead of coming off of a 14 hour day.

10 Killgore Trout  6/13/08 7:49:24 pm reply quote 1
(Hat tip: Killgore.)


Are you sure about that? I don't recall linking to that article but I do drink a bit. Fact check anyone?

11 George Slivers  6/13/08 7:49:48 pm reply quote -7

This post has about as much reasoning supporting it as a Keith Olbermann post. Ben Stein's movie showed that the philosophical underpinnings of Darwinism were used to justify the holocost. It would be nice if you fundamentalist could stop attacking your creationist base.

12 hermeneutics  6/13/08 7:50:09 pm reply quote 2

This is fun news, but old news. One of my fav, must-read blogs is "Gene Expression." Back in 2006 gnxp had an article on "Finnetics" or the genetic diversity among Finns (one of the most homogenous groups in Europe, supposedly.) Quite interesting.

Here's their summary:

Overall, this paper reinforces the idea that Finns are distinct from the peoples of Western Europe, seeing as they have little evidence of R1b, but that they share considerable continuity with other Scandinavians, as well as peoples to the East (Slavs). One issue that I think needs to be addressed is that the mental model people have in regards to the genesis of the Finns is often of a group of Siberian tribes hurtling through "Slav space" and settling amongst a bunch of Scandinavians and slowly admixing. I think it is easy for people to imagine "clumps" of populations in a larger distinct matrix, and then model the mixture of clumps resulting in the peoples we see around us. I suspect that the reality is that many of the genetic gradients are the result of more prosaic deme-to-deme mate exchange and movement over time. Large migrations might have played a role, but the introgression of M17 into Finland (if it wasn't indigenous to Finland in the first place) need not be explained by a few movements of Slavic tribes, rather, it might have been due to the long term residence of Slavs along the southern edge of the Finnish world and the inevitable bleeding over of marriage networks.

See: [Link: www.gnxp.com...]

13 nyc redneck  6/13/08 7:50:11 pm reply quote 13

odd how hitler stood before huge crowds extolling the virtues of the tall blond aryan race and he was such a short little dark swarthy creep.

14 beachkatie  6/13/08 7:50:15 pm reply quote 0

I'ma southern women, i don't count! :0

15 newsjunkie_ky  6/13/08 7:50:18 pm reply quote 2

The headline is misleading.

16 solomonpanting  6/13/08 7:50:18 pm reply quote 18

Wouldn't this article destroy Hitler's contention of a master race rather than Stein's contention of the racist theory Hitler used againt the Jews and others?

17 Noam Sayin'  6/13/08 7:50:40 pm reply quote 0

Here we go.

VegasRick. Got an over/under on the number of posts?

18 DistantThunder  6/13/08 7:51:04 pm reply quote 0

We have some of that light skin, blonde hair and light eyes - and it stinks. Mr. DT has had several bouts of skin cancer.

And the children often get burned if they are not religious about sunscrean.

My raven haired daughter, had ivory skin and blue eyes - not much help.

What a pain.

19 jcm  6/13/08 7:51:07 pm reply quote 0

Her Hitler laid claim to the title "Aryan" for his blond fair supermen

Aryan is an English word derived from the Sanskrit "Ārya" meaning "noble" or "honorable".[1][2] The Avestan cognate is "Airya" and the Old Persian equivalent is "Ariya". It is widely held to have been used as an ethnic self-designation of the Proto-Indo-Iranians[citation needed]. Since, in the 19th century, the Indo-Iranians were the most ancient known speakers of Indo-European languages, the word Aryan was adopted to refer not only to the Indo-Iranian people, but also to Indo-European speakers as a whole

Aryan, are in fact rather swarthy.

20 Occasional Reader  6/13/08 7:51:26 pm reply quote 13
Ben Stein’s contention that Darwinian evolution led directly to the Nazi Holocaust is destroyed by genetic science.

While I think that Ben Stein was way, way off base with his argument, I also have to say that your argument here, Charles, is something of a non sequitur.

Stein's claim is that Hitler & Co. believed that Darwinian science led inevitably to their program. I think Stein is wrong, but genetic findings in the year 2008 bear no relevance to the argument.

21 brainwizard73  6/13/08 7:51:26 pm reply quote 0

re: #13 nyc redneck

odd how hitler stood before huge crowds extolling the virtues of the tall blond aryan race and he was such a short little dark swarthy creep.

And he wasn't even German...

...although since he spoke German, he was considered part of the "volk" and allowed into the club.

22 newsjunkie_ky  6/13/08 7:51:40 pm reply quote 0

re: #16 solomonpanting

YES.

23 paint-right  6/13/08 7:51:47 pm reply quote 3

I'm not getting the logic of this , however.

The Nazis were woefully wrong, but had no proof to the contrary as DNA etc hadn't been invented yet, so they wishfully hoped they were of some mythic super race.

24 DistantThunder  6/13/08 7:52:37 pm reply quote 0

re: #13 nyc redneck

odd how hitler stood before huge crowds extolling the virtues of the tall blond aryan race and he was such a short little dark swarthy creep.

a particular stinky kind of swarthy...with no offense to Stinky B.

25 Charles  6/13/08 7:52:41 pm reply quote 2

Sorry, Josephine. Too many windows open. Hat tip now corrected.

26 SpartanWoman  6/13/08 7:52:45 pm reply quote 1

re: #21 brainwizard73

And he wasn't even German...

...although since he spoke German, he was considered part of the "volk" and allowed into the club.

Many of those he murdered spoke German too.

27 brainwizard73  6/13/08 7:53:02 pm reply quote 0

My prediction:

There is more behind this thread than meets the eye.

28 Thanos  6/13/08 7:53:25 pm reply quote 0

re: #10 Killgore Trout

I think I posted that this morn, not to worry, someone else probably posted it sooner. If not, then someone else would have - the reptilian blogmind knows all and sees all.

29 beachkatie  6/13/08 7:53:40 pm reply quote 0

re: #18 DistantThunderOh my! :0

30 DistantThunder  6/13/08 7:54:04 pm reply quote 0

re: #19 jcm

Her Hitler laid claim to the title "Aryan" for his blond fair supermen

Aryan, are in fact rather swarthy.

My son's girlfriend is named Aryan. We were a little shocked. But hse is tall and dark haired - very intelligent - birth father in prison - step-father an Emergency Room doctor.

I'm afraid to ask.......

31 jcm  6/13/08 7:54:23 pm reply quote 0

re: #27 brainwizard73

My prediction:

There is more behind this thread than meets the eye.

32 Dianna  6/13/08 7:54:38 pm reply quote 0

re: #11 George Slivers

Not another one!

33 Annar  6/13/08 7:54:48 pm reply quote 2

re: #15 newsjunkie_ky

The headline is misleading.

I agree.

34 Charles  6/13/08 7:54:57 pm reply quote 9

The point is that Darwinian evolution did not lead to the Third Reich.

A distortion of Darwinian evolution did. And it's now debunked by the same science that Ben Stein attacks.

35 stickdude  6/13/08 7:55:10 pm reply quote 2

re: #16 solomonpanting

Wouldn't this article destroy Hitler's contention of a master race rather than Stein's contention of the racist theory Hitler used againt the Jews and others?


That was my first question, as I didn't even see Ben mentioned anywhere in the article.

36 DistantThunder  6/13/08 7:55:17 pm reply quote 1

re: #27 brainwizard73

My prediction:

There is more behind this thread than meets the eye.

I can see it now.

37 battletop2  6/13/08 7:55:35 pm reply quote 2

RE #16 Solomonpanting

You got it right. The title is a non-sequitor.

38 Thanos  6/13/08 7:55:40 pm reply quote 0

re: #11 George Slivers


Is the holocost the cost of a holograph or what George?

39 Dianna  6/13/08 7:56:03 pm reply quote 1

re: #12 hermeneutics

A prof of mine used to, in complete disgust, say, "There's no such thing as race. There's language groups, and that's about it."

40 researchok  6/13/08 7:56:21 pm reply quote 10

The Holocaust wasn't only about science (faulty or otherwise).
The racialism was very much a culturally cultivated and crafted phenomena and that in turn served to 'fuel' National Socialism.

When it it is all said and done, the Nazi tyranny was not dependent on science, good, bad or indifferent, for it's validation.

They just wanted to make their racist ideology (and thus the validation of their 'superiority') predicated on a 'scientific' basis.

For the Nazis, Darwin and 'science' were tools to be used to further their particular political agenda, so in that sense Stein was right, even if the real science is faulty.

This is not unlike 'science' or ideologies of Al Gore, et al. They care little about the science- it's all about the ideology.

41 Ojoe  6/13/08 7:56:27 pm reply quote 3

What does DNA have to do with the Holocaust?

It was a moral failing on the part of the perpetrators.

Anybody can be good or bad.

42 DistantThunder  6/13/08 7:56:58 pm reply quote 0

McCain talked about tidal energy and wind energy - and I thought - boy, someone has got his ear - and everything else just bounces off.

43 brainwizard73  6/13/08 7:57:15 pm reply quote 0

re: #26 SpartanWoman

Many of those he murdered spoke German too.

Right. As a descendant of German-speaking Poles (actually old Prussians on the east side of the Oder) I never could understand that point. If German culture and language makes someone German...why wouldn't that cover for some other issues that even a whack-job like Hitler had? Then again, he murdered a lot of people that stood in his way, and there were a lot of Germans that did try to resist.

Best not to think on this too much, though. Kind of grim stuff for a Friday night when I should be learning about Michelle (the Shrew)Obama's waffle recipes.

44 Charles  6/13/08 7:57:30 pm reply quote 4

re: #41 Ojoe

What does DNA have to do with the Holocaust?

It was a moral failing on the part of the perpetrators.

Anybody can be good or bad.

Exactly. The science of DNA had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

45 Ojoe  6/13/08 7:57:52 pm reply quote 1
46 DistantThunder  6/13/08 7:58:36 pm reply quote 0

It's a good day to be alive.

These are the Golden Years.

Breathe deeply.

47 paint-right  6/13/08 7:58:38 pm reply quote 0

Speaking of hoping to belong to some interesting group of people, is there anywhere a site which shows what they have figured out about ancient migrations etc etc. As in discovering genetic links between native Americans and Siberians and Incas and Egyptians and Thor Heyerdal. LOL

What does it cost to get your gene pool analyzed and find out who contributed to your mitochondrial DNA? And who would you trust to do it?

48 cookielady  6/13/08 7:59:10 pm reply quote 0

G'night, Lizards.

49 Occasional Reader  6/13/08 7:59:12 pm reply quote 0

YOU DID IT, YOU FINALLY DID IT! YOU BLEW IT UP! AWWW DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

-channelling Battlestar Galactica season finale

50 jcm  6/13/08 7:59:17 pm reply quote 2

re: #11 George Slivers

This post has about as much reasoning supporting it as a Keith Olbermann post. Ben Stein's movie showed that the philosophical underpinnings of Darwinism were used to justify the holocost. It would be nice if you fundamentalist could stop attacking your creationist base.

It would be more appropriate to say that Hitler used Eugenics to it's extreme to justify the actions. Eugenics is a misapplication of Darwin's theories.

51 Boogberg  6/13/08 7:59:24 pm reply quote 0

What do we know about Ben Stein? Do we have the full dossier on this guy yet? Inquiring lizards want to know (this one at least).

52 BGOH  6/13/08 7:59:30 pm reply quote 0

"Well, we love hockey, and not many people know where Denmark is. So, we're kind of like the Canada of Europe."

/I'M NOT YOUR BUDDY, GUY!

53 Gagdad Bob  6/13/08 7:59:38 pm reply quote 19

Respectfully, to suggest that all people who believe in ID are "creationists" is as intellectually dishonest as saying that all people who believe in reductionistic and nihilistic Darwinism are necessarily nazis. Neither statement is true.

54 Beobachter  6/13/08 7:59:38 pm reply quote 1

re: #40 researchok

The Holocaust wasn't only about science (faulty or otherwise).
The racialism was very much a culturally cultivated and crafted phenomena and that in turn served to 'fuel' National Socialism.

When it it is all said and done, the Nazi tyranny was not dependent on science, good, bad or indifferent, for it's validation.

They just wanted to make their racist ideology (and thus the validation of their 'superiority') predicated on a 'scientific' basis.

For the Nazis, Darwin and 'science' were tools to be used to further their particular political agenda, so in that sense Stein was right, even if the real science is faulty.

This is not unlike 'science' or ideologies of Al Gore, et al. They care little about the science- it's all about the ideology.

I like4 he connection that you are making here.

55 Thanos  6/13/08 7:59:38 pm reply quote 0

re: #42 DistantThunder

McCain talked about tidal energy and wind energy - and I thought - boy, someone has got his ear - and everything else just bounces off.

If you look at his policy papers he's nuclear energy first, and oh yeah, a nod at solar, tidal, and wind.

[Link: neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com...]

56 newsjunkie_ky  6/13/08 7:59:39 pm reply quote 1

Reaching....!

57 DistantThunder  6/13/08 8:00:06 pm reply quote 0

re: #47 paint-right

Speaking of hoping to belong to some interesting group of people, is there anywhere a site which shows what they have figured out about ancient migrations etc etc. As in discovering genetic links between native Americans and Siberians and Incas and Egyptians and Thor Heyerdal. LOL

What does it cost to get your gene pool analyzed and find out who contributed to your mitochondrial DNA? And who would you trust to do it?

I think that is where they trace your MDNA - mitochondrial DNA

58 jaunte  6/13/08 8:00:09 pm reply quote 0

re: #47 paint-right

I put a link in the spinoffs, but I don't know who runs the operation.

59 unrealizedviewpoint  6/13/08 8:00:24 pm reply quote 0

re: #49 Occasional Reader

YOU DID IT, YOU FINALLY DID IT! YOU BLEW IT UP! AWWW DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

-channelling Battlestar Galactica season finale

Isn't that from Planet of the Apes?

60 Charles  6/13/08 8:00:50 pm reply quote 4

re: #11 George Slivers

This post has about as much reasoning supporting it as a Keith Olbermann post. Ben Stein's movie showed that the philosophical underpinnings of Darwinism were used to justify the holocost. It would be nice if you fundamentalist could stop attacking your creationist base.

No, Ben Stein's movie showed nothing of the sort. It showed an ideologue perverting the Holocaust to promote a dishonest agenda.

62 hermeneutics  6/13/08 8:01:09 pm reply quote 0

re: #49 Occasional Reader

YOU DID IT, YOU FINALLY DID IT! YOU BLEW IT UP! AWWW DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

-channelling Battlestar Galactica season finale

I'm laughing at this, but don't know why -- what does this mean?

63 jcm  6/13/08 8:01:11 pm reply quote 0

re: #41 Ojoe

What does DNA have to do with the Holocaust?

It was a moral failing on the part of the perpetrators.

Anybody can be good or bad.

Precisely, DNA was not know till Watson, Crick and Franklin. Although genetics was know.

64 Bacchus's daddy  6/13/08 8:01:16 pm reply quote 0

We needed a study for this? Unbelievable.

65 DistantThunder  6/13/08 8:01:31 pm reply quote 0

re: #55 Thanos

If you look at his policy papers he's nuclear energy first, and oh yeah, a nod at solar, tidal, and wind.

[Link: neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com...]

Problem: it takes like 5 years to build a power plant IF the enviro-nuts will allow it.

66 Muadib  6/13/08 8:01:40 pm reply quote 0

re: #27 brainwizard73

My prediction:

There is more behind this thread than meets the eye.

There is more to everything than meets the eye...

67 Occasional Reader  6/13/08 8:02:07 pm reply quote 0

re: #62 hermeneutics

I'm laughing at this, but don't know why -- what does this mean?

It would be a plot spoiler for me to say, for now.

68 jcm  6/13/08 8:02:20 pm reply quote 0

re: #49 Occasional Reader

YOU DID IT, YOU FINALLY DID IT! YOU BLEW IT UP! AWWW DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

-channelling Battlestar Galactica season finale

No spoilers...
Just start Season 1.
;-P

69 brainwizard73  6/13/08 8:02:22 pm reply quote 0

re: #11 George Slivers

This post has about as much reasoning supporting it as a Keith Olbermann post. Ben Stein's movie showed that the philosophical underpinnings of Darwinism were used to justify the holocost. It would be nice if you fundamentalist could stop attacking your creationist base.

[in my best Columbo manner]

Maybe you can...uh, explain something to me:

Explain to me exactly where the attack on the "creationist base" was...I'm not seeing it.

70 Killgore Trout  6/13/08 8:02:31 pm reply quote 0

re: #11 George Slivers

It would be nice if you fundamentalist could stop attacking your creationist base.


I have no Creationist base.

71 esch  6/13/08 8:02:33 pm reply quote 0

That's cause us scandahoovians are horny bastards. The last 4 generations of my family all had their first child at 16-17. Yes they were all married at the time.

72 Thanos  6/13/08 8:03:32 pm reply quote 0

I think there's been a flagging campaign over at youtube -- some of the "why do people laugh at creationists" vids have been taken down.

73 battletop2  6/13/08 8:03:46 pm reply quote 4

re #34 Charles

I am a creationist/intelligent design guy. Science is not bad. Individuals (like algore) who use it erroneously to promote their political agenda, are shameful. Until someone can explain what caused the "big bang" without using (as Stephen Hawking did) an imaginary number (square root of -1) I shall keep an open mind, while rooting for God.

74 Psaturn  6/13/08 8:04:17 pm reply quote 0

re: #34 Charles

The point is that Darwinian evolution did not lead to the Third Reich.

A distortion of Darwinian evolution did. And it's now debunked by the same science that Ben Stein attacks.

Thanks for your explanation Charles...I was wondering about that.

And about Ben Stein, I do not think he attacked science but rather the politics behind science.

And your statement of DISTORTION of Darwinian evolution led to Third Reich is a very significant statement.

I know that Charles Darwin was not into Eugenics and master race but his cousin and his son, that bore his last name Darwin, did promulgate Eugenics and was leader of the Eugenics Society.

75 hermeneutics  6/13/08 8:04:29 pm reply quote 0

re: #71 esch

That's cause us scandahoovians are horny bastards. The last 4 generations of my family all had their first child at 16-17. Yes they were all married at the time.

Hmmm, I'm Scandinavian and am not a "horny bastard." I had my kids in my early twenties AFTER college and marriage. As did my mother ... grandparents ... great-grandparents ... etc.

I think you are an outlier.

76 Occasional Reader  6/13/08 8:04:30 pm reply quote 2

re: #44 Charles

Exactly. The science of DNA had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

I will admit that I did not see the movie. But based on what I've read about it, Stein was not arguing that the science of DNA, per se, led to the Holocaust. (Which would be quite a stupid argument, since DNA wasn't discovered until 1959.)

77 Karridine  6/13/08 8:04:34 pm reply quote 0

re: #62 hermeneutics

Yeah, Hermy, I'm laughing because it closely follows the dialogue in the animated movie 'Madagascar' when the lion curses his friend, "Darn you, darn you all to heck!"

A limp-wristed curse, sanitized for politically correct reasons...

78 brainwizard73  6/13/08 8:04:42 pm reply quote 0

re: #52 BGOH

"Well, we love hockey, and not many people know where Denmark is. So, we're kind of like the Canada of Europe."

/I'M NOT YOUR BUDDY, GUY!

Will you give us military bases in Canada for 20,000 Bennigan's coupons?

/I'm not your guy, friend!

79 jcm  6/13/08 8:04:57 pm reply quote 6

re: #70 Killgore Trout

I have no Creationist base.

All your Creationist base are belong to us!
HAHAHA!

80 Phileosophos  6/13/08 8:05:16 pm reply quote 8

Um, I hate to burst your bubble, folks, but the fact that the Nazis happened to be wrong about their genetic beliefs in no way invalidates Ben Stein's claim. His point isn't that the Nazis were right about their views, only that they had them because of a Darwinist reading of the world (i.e., as a purely naturalistic, survival-of-the-fittest adaptive mechanism). Had Darwin's view not come along, it is dubious at best that the Nazis would have been clever enough to come up with such a eugenics program on their own.

As Richard Dawkins put it, Darwin finally made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist. That is, prior to Darwin, it simply wasn't possible to believe in a world without God. But thanks to Darwin, and borrowing from Dostoevsky, in a world without God all things are permitted. It doesn't matter that the Nazis understanding of Darwinian genetics was false; what matters is that it was a justifying/driving force behind the Holocaust.

81 Killgore Trout  6/13/08 8:05:31 pm reply quote 0

re: #53 Gagdad Bob

Respectfully, to suggest that all people who believe in ID are "creationists" is as intellectually dishonest as saying that all people who believe in reductionistic and nihilistic Darwinism are necessarily nazis. Neither statement is true.

I'll agree with you under certain conditions. Creationism as a matter of faith I have no problem with. Faith is faith. However, creationism and ID are not science. I'm not disputing your faith, only your science.
/Turtles, all the way down

82 Yankee Division Son  6/13/08 8:05:46 pm reply quote 3

OT

Just plain funny

83 stickdude  6/13/08 8:05:52 pm reply quote 0

re: #60 Charles

No, Ben Stein's movie showed nothing of the sort. It showed an ideologue perverting the Holocaust to promote a dishonest agenda.

So a distorted belief in evolution played no part whatsoever in the Holocaust? What about the eugenics movement of the early 20th century? Did that have nothing to do with evolution, either?

84 brainwizard73  6/13/08 8:06:03 pm reply quote 0

re: #66 Muadib

There is more to everything than meets the eye...

Thanks for pointing out the inanity of my comment.

[sheepish look]

Greetings Professor Falken. How about a nice game of chess?

85 Killgore Trout  6/13/08 8:06:17 pm reply quote 0

re: #79 jcm

Ha!

86 Sharmuta  6/13/08 8:06:48 pm reply quote 0

re: #73 battletop2

Science is not bad. Individuals (like algore) who use it erroneously to promote their political agenda, are shameful.

And what of people like the discovery institute? Are they shameful too?

87 Psaturn  6/13/08 8:06:57 pm reply quote 0

re: #70 Killgore Trout

I have no Creationist base.

I think he referring to Charle's base...that there were quite a few Creationists...seeing that many of the supporters of Israel as well as patriotic Americans and supporter of US military and "conservative" values are usually theists of the Jewish and Christian varieties...

88 esch  6/13/08 8:07:05 pm reply quote 0

re: #75 hermeneutics

No doubt. We're strange in other ways as well. I think it comes from our Finn roots.

89 BGOH  6/13/08 8:07:12 pm reply quote -2

re: #78 brainwizard73

I'M NOT YOUR FWEIND, BUDDAY!

/Can I turn this into a drinking thread. I want a drinking thread. OH! OH! And a boobie thread!

90 DistantThunder  6/13/08 8:07:13 pm reply quote 3

It was a Holocaust waiting for an excuse which the Nazi THOUGHT they found in Darwinism. And they didn't care if they were wrong.

91 kevinmumaw  6/13/08 8:07:19 pm reply quote 1

re: #13 nyc redneck

odd how hitler stood before huge crowds extolling the virtues of the tall blond aryan race and he was such a short little dark swarthy creep.

I've wondered about that for years.

92 brainwizard73  6/13/08 8:07:45 pm reply quote 0

Gotta check out for a few...

Stay frosty, y'all.

93 wolfie  6/13/08 8:07:45 pm reply quote 0

re: #70 Killgore Trout

I have no Creationist base.

Damned straight ! That's a fern base!

94 Psaturn  6/13/08 8:07:54 pm reply quote 0

re: #81 Killgore Trout

I think ID can be science.

95 itellu3times  6/13/08 8:08:04 pm reply quote 0

re: #47 paint-right

Speaking of hoping to belong to some interesting group of people, is there anywhere a site which shows what they have figured out about ancient migrations etc etc. As in discovering genetic links between native Americans and Siberians and Incas and Egyptians and Thor Heyerdal. LOL

What does it cost to get your gene pool analyzed and find out who contributed to your mitochondrial DNA? And who would you trust to do it?

I don't know a single source for this, but it's an interesting question, I hope somebody is centralizing it. Probably have to research hundreds of academic articles from biology, geography, anthropology, who knows what departments.

As to getting your genome mapped, I think that's still about $100k, they're working on getting that down to $10k then $1k until it becomes standard to do at birth, but just not quite yet. And maybe the art and science of detailed genome mapping isn't *quite* there yet either, but ssssh, that's a secret. Anyway, a lot of specific mutations can at least be searched for already with I dunno what accuracy, assume something north of 80%, I wonder.

(I did a little genetic combinatoric math for my molecular biologist brother a few years ago, maybe things have improved since but I was sort of appalled at how it was being done back then)

Practice of medicine is going to change tremendously over the next few decades, genetic profile will match you to the proper drugs.

As to what it says about your origins, more often than not you probably don't want to ask! Especially don't ask on Father's Day weekend, or what happened in Vegas may not stay there.

96 Dianna  6/13/08 8:08:15 pm reply quote 0

re: #74 Psaturn

Neither one was a scientist, and they were used, flattered and abused because of their familial connection.

97 Dianna  6/13/08 8:08:55 pm reply quote 0

re: #83 stickdude

Um...have you been drinking?

98 jaunte  6/13/08 8:08:57 pm reply quote 1

re: #80 Phileosophos

Had Darwin's view not come along, it is dubious at best that the Nazis would have been clever enough to come up with such a eugenics program on their own.

On the contrary, they might have just used Martin Luther's words as an excuse:

"I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in, proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated."
99 paint-right  6/13/08 8:09:15 pm reply quote 0

re: #58 jaunte

I put a link in the spinoffs, but I don't know who runs the operation.

Got it, thanks. maybe i could check at my nearby university to lend my genes for free. I'll report back if i find anything interesting or scandalous.

/ I used to hope I was part native American

100 DistantThunder  6/13/08 8:09:27 pm reply quote 0

Has anyone here ever been hypnotized or know how to self-hypnotize? My daughter said she barked like a dog once at her senior party. Everyone told her about it and she had no memory of it.

101 Cognito  6/13/08 8:09:39 pm reply quote 4

I think science is the study of what we can see, on this side of the mortal curtain. I think religion is the study of everything beyond. And I think that both start to look a bit silly when they try to intrude on the other.

102 laZardo  6/13/08 8:09:56 pm reply quote 0

Our genetic process since we first emerged from the sea has pretty much been defined and is very much inarguable. What happened long before then - before our current universe was created, knock yerselves out. (:

/that's all I got to say about that.

103 kevinmumaw  6/13/08 8:10:02 pm reply quote 0

re: #89 BGOH

I'M NOT YOUR FWEIND, BUDDAY!

/Can I turn this into a drinking thread. I want a drinking thread. OH! OH! And a boobie thread!

OK...I had a glass of Merlot a few hours ago. I'm out of gin or I would be drinking Tanqueray and tonic. So I settled for Grey Goose and Perrier. It's not bad.

104 lawhawk  6/13/08 8:10:12 pm reply quote 0

re: #91 kevinmumaw

Cognitive dissonance.

That and since he wrote the rules, they didn't apply to him. Just to everyone else.

105 MandyManners  6/13/08 8:10:48 pm reply quote 0

re: #89 BGOH

I'M NOT YOUR FWEIND, BUDDAY!

/Can I turn this into a drinking thread. I want a drinking thread. OH! OH! And a boobie thread!

You big boob! It's time to drink! Just don't get knocked down. Or, get knocked down. You'll get up. Just like ME.

106 DistantThunder  6/13/08 8:11:30 pm reply quote 0

re: #101 Cognito

I think science is the study of what we can see, on this side of the mortal curtain. I think religion is the study of everything beyond. And I think that both start to look a bit silly when they try to intrude on the other.

Can we see neutrinos? or do we just know they are there? That's science.

107 Killgore Trout  6/13/08 8:11:43 pm reply quote 1

re: #80 Phileosophos

Um, I hate to burst your bubble, folks, but the fact that the Nazis happened to be wrong about their genetic beliefs in no way invalidates Ben Stein's claim.

Dude, Darwin's writings were banned in Nazi Germany.

6. Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel).


They burned his books and evolution was not taught in Nazi schools. It's a historical fact. Get over it.

108 ploome hineni  6/13/08 8:11:58 pm reply quote 0

....I always wondered what criteria these nazi people used to decide that Jews were 'at the bottom'

because when one looks at the real world, that theory cannot be supported at all

in fact,one could argue the opposite

109 Dianna  6/13/08 8:11:59 pm reply quote 0

re: #94 Psaturn

Then tell me, how would it be disproved? How is it falsifiable?

110 Muadib  6/13/08 8:12:39 pm reply quote 0

re: #84 brainwizard73

Thanks for pointing out the inanity of my comment.

[sheepish look]

Greetings Professor Falken. How about a nice game of chess?

There was nothing inane about your comment. I liked it. How about a game of tick-tack-toe to see who wins the ID vs Evolution debate.

111 Bacchus's daddy  6/13/08 8:12:51 pm reply quote 2

re: #11 George Slivers

This post has about as much reasoning supporting it as a Keith Olbermann post. Ben Stein's movie showed that the philosophical underpinnings of Darwinism were used to justify the holocost. It would be nice if you fundamentalist could stop attacking your creationist base.

I despise fundamentalists of all stripes, and will argue all day with any creationists; fundamentalist= Darwinist? really? Darwin's ideas may have very indirectly fueled Hitler's lunacy, but less than those of Nietzsche (no Nazi), and especially Spengler- who very unwittingly, I believe, provided some fuel for Hitler's deplorable philosophy. Hitler created an unholy blend of the ideas of many intellectuals, most of whom would have deplored his end result.

112 Killgore Trout  6/13/08 8:12:55 pm reply quote 2

re: #94 Psaturn

I think ID can be science.


Then you're goofy.

113 Charles  6/13/08 8:12:56 pm reply quote 4

Stein told The New York Times last year that, were it up to him, he would call the movie, “From Darwin to Hitler.”

114 ploome hineni  6/13/08 8:12:59 pm reply quote 0

re: #51 Boogberg

What do we know about Ben Stein? Do we have the full dossier on this guy yet? Inquiring lizards want to know (this one at least).

google has tons of infor on him and his illustrious family

115 Occasional Reader  6/13/08 8:13:04 pm reply quote