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Radical Muslim Funding US Creationist Groups?

Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 9:11:19 pm PDT

Here’s an interesting article with lots of detail on the Turkish radical Islamic creationist Harun Yahya (real name: Adnan Oktar), who has joined forces with US creationist groups like the Institute for Creation Research, to promote their Dark Ages anti-science agenda around the world: Muslim creationist preaches Islam and awaits Christ.

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Harun Yahya is one of the most widely distributed authors in the Muslim world. He may also be among the most widely criticized Muslim authors in the Western world.

His glossy books and DVDs on religion and science sell in Islamic bookshops around the globe. He gives away thousands of expensive volumes and lets readers download much of his work from his websites for free.

The Council of Europe accuses him of trying to infiltrate schools with religious extremism and French teachers are told to keep his work from their students.

Unknown outside Muslim circles two years ago, Adnan Oktar — the 52-year-old Turk behind the pseudonym Harun Yahya — caught the attention of scientists and teachers in Europe and North America by mass-mailing them his 768-page “Atlas of Creation”. His lavishly illustrated book preaches a Muslim version of creationism, the view scientists usually hear from Christian fundamentalists who say God created all life on earth just as it is today and oppose the teaching of Darwin’s evolution theory.

“Every academic I know says they’ve got one of those,” retired University of Edinburgh natural history professor Aubrey Manning told the Glasgow Herald when “The Atlas” turned up in Scotland early this year. “And it’s peddling an absolute, downright lie.”

But Oktar, whose reclusive ways and opaque business have prompted many rumors about why and how he gives away so many books, brushed off all criticism in a rare interview with Reuters. “This huge impact shows the influence of the book,” the author, stylishly turned out in a white suit, red tie and clipped beard, said through an interpreter.

The controversy stirred up by “The Atlas” has turned the spotlight on a publishing empire that boasts about 260 books in 52 languages, over 80 DVDs and dozens of websites.

Well-illustrated and free of theological jargon, they preach that Islam is the one true faith and Darwinism, by undermining religious belief, has led to the discord, atheism, terrorism and extreme political ideologies plaguing the world. ...

The flood of free books prompted suspicion among baffled Western scientists and teachers that U.S. creationists or Saudi financiers might be helping finance the campaign.

Oktar said the giveaways — he estimated them at about 10,000 out of print runs of over 200,000 — were normal public relations funded by profits from sales of “The Atlas” and other books.

“That seems implausible — this book is expensive,” said Taner Edis, a Turkish-American physicist whose 2007 book “An Illusion of Harmony” analyzed Islam’s approach to science. “And to my knowledge, it’s not selling like hotcakes.”

Edis doubted the rumors of funds from U.S. creationists, saying: “American creationists I talk to basically envy Harun Yahya’s financial resources. If there were any fund flowing, it would be from Adnan Oktar to the creationists.

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1847 comments

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1 MPH  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:13:19pm

Looks like a symbiotic relationship.

2 nigella  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:13:38pm

What can you say about this?

3 Abu Al-Poopypants  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:14:00pm

Invisible Sky Wizard akbar!

4 patrickafir  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:14:29pm

It's sad to see Christianity in any way linked to the religion of peace.

5 Salem  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:14:32pm

Go ahead, ID fans, have at it.

6 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:14:55pm

Under every stone is a Saudi financier...

7 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:15:23pm

Interesting.

Doesn't TBN also have connections with Islamic groups?

I'll look for links.

8 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:17:19pm

Here are some:

[Link: www.apprising.org...]

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

9 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:17:29pm

re: #6 experiencedtraveller

Under every stone is a Saudi financier...

Probably not in this case:

Saudi funding also seems unlikely because Oktar's message, while basically Sunni Muslim, mixes in Shi'ite and Sufi elements that clash with the kingdom's austere Wahhabi school of Islam.

"The Saudis don't like that," said an Istanbul Islam expert who asked not to be named because he feared litigation by the Harun Yahya group if quoted criticizing it. He thought Oktar was mostly funded by a small group of affluent young Turks who make up the core group of his supporters.

10 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:18:22pm

He "awaits Christ?" I wonder how well that'll go over in Turkey and the surrounding areas?

11 ted  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:18:47pm

re: #9 Charles

Soros probably will pop up too.

12 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:19:12pm

Disparagement of science makes baby Jesus cry.

13 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:19:19pm

If I recall correctly, Harun Yahya is very critical of Jihadism.

14 ted  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:19:41pm

Dodo's of a feather...

15 The Other Les  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:20:17pm

re: #10 Wyatt Earp

He "awaits Christ?" I wonder how well that'll go over in Turkey and the surrounding areas?

It beats waiting for Godot.

16 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:20:25pm

re: #14 ted

Dodo's of a feather...

Cretins of a feather incest together

/just made that up, it's disgusting, but it fits

17 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:20:52pm

Re my comment at #13,

No, I think I was wrong about that.

18 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:22:25pm

re: #15 The Other Les

Or the Al Gorbot.

19 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:23:07pm

Re: Harun Yahya.

What I remembered was that he took stands against things that most Muslims support, and he is opposed by a great number of Muslims.

Here's an example of a stand he has taken against Nazism and anti-Semitism:

[Link: www.harunyahya.com...]

20 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:23:11pm

More on this freak: Adnan Oktar.

In September 1999 Adnan Oktar was arrested following multiple sex scandals and further allegations that was fully covered by the Turkish media. In that court case, Oktar was charged with rape, slander, libel, bribery, blackmail and creating an organization with the intent to commit a crime[8]. One complaintant, a fashion model named Ebru Simsek claimed she was blackmailed, and then slandered as a "prostitute" in fax messages sent to hundreds of different newspapers, TV channels, major business companies, foreign consulates and government offices for refusing to have sex with Adnan Oktar. The judicial process lasted over 2 years, during which most of the complainants' retracted their claims because of threats or bribes from SRF members. As a result most of the cases against Oktar and SRF members were dismissed, with only two member receiving jail sentences for 1 year each.

Amidst ambiguous circumstances all charges were dropped by that court only to be picked by another court 8 years later. On May 2008 Oktar and 17 other members of his organisation where sentenced to 3 years in prison[30]. Oktar intends to appeal these charges.[30]

According to the indictment of the prosecutor’s office, cited by the daily Cumhuriyet, Adnan Oktar and associates raped young women many of whom were under the age of 18 on camera and blackmailed them by threatening to release the sex tapes to their friends and family members. Many of these young women were then forced to to entice select young men from wealthy families with the promise sex in exchange for attending events organised by the BAV. The court heard how in turn these girls were formed into a group called of what they referred to as Odalisques and were ordered to videotape their sex sessions with these young men and deliver the tapes to Oktar.

21 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:24:05pm
The flood of free books prompted suspicion among baffled Western scientists and teachers that U.S. creationists or Saudi financiers might be helping finance the campaign.

He should have included his books as part of the Aramco curriculum for "cultural studies" classes. Nobody would have noticed.

22 Purple Prose  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:24:11pm

Islamists and Western irrationalists of all stripes make natural bedfellows. You see Islamists aligning themselves with the far Left, the far Right and now, perhaps, creationists. It's all about an assault on reason. Roll back the Enlightenment and let Karl or Adolf or Mohammed in. It's all shiite.

23 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:24:17pm

Knowledge has a long history of being feared by those who wish to impose their views on others in order to maintain their power.

24 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:24:55pm

re: #19 Pastorius

Re: Harun Yahya.

What I remembered was that he took stands against things that most Muslims support, and he is opposed by a great number of Muslims.

Here's an example of a stand he has taken against Nazism and anti-Semitism:

[Link: www.harunyahya.com...]

If you read that whole incoherent article, you'll discover that his definition of "antisemitism" is rather flexible.

25 shibumi  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:26:08pm

I'm pretty sure the Christ he's awaiting is very different from Jesus.

But I bet he's not going to mention that bit of Islamic theology to anyone.

26 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:26:43pm

re: #20 Charles

Religious perverts are disgusting hypocrites.

27 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:28:36pm

If I were Jihadi megabucks seeking to wedge Sharia into American law, I would certainly start by "greasing the wedge". This does not reflect upon the existing ID movement (which is already wrong and not at all science, yet certainly not Jihadi by any stretch), but it uses a more palatable ideology to drive the same legal mechanism.

So while I would not claim that ID folks are Jihadi, there most definitely a Jihadi threat hidden within ID.

Please note that I do not equate any of the terms herein with Creationism, which to me is theology, and threatens exactly nobody. Once it strays into ID however, then it is politics and pseudo-science.

28 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:28:40pm

Charles,

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your headline.

It appears you're taking this quote...

"American creationists I talk to basically envy Harun Yahya’s financial resources. If there were any fund flowing, it would be from Adnan Oktar to the creationists.”

... and trying to use it to insinuate that US creationist groups are in cahoots with radical Islam.

When the quote, of course, is simply -- and obviously -- belying the assertion that US creationists could possibly be funding this dude.

Help me out here.

29 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:28:46pm

He awaits Christ... means the real and only true Muslim Christ who will defeat the fake Christian Christ.

They call Christians, "children of the book" but still claim that we are deluded and following a false Christ.

30 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:28:49pm

re: #24 Charles

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I've been suffering major weirdness - first I had the eternal dotted circle, then I got dumped three threads back, then I was told I was not logged in, then I was accused of duplicate comments...I'm on Firefox 3, or whatever this latest version is titled.

Is LGF being strange, is the internet being strange, or should I bother my technical consultant, a.k.a., the Male of the Species?

31 profitsbeard  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:28:54pm

One of his useful idiot colleagues in the West is the "famous French physician" Maurice Bucaille who promotes the risible notion that the Koran is a fountain of advanced scientific thought, making this a two-pronged assault, aiming at both the gullible fundamentalists and the naive progressives.

One angle advances Allah as the source of ID, and the other pushes a parallel tactic co-opting "Science".

They try to get to you from each end of the conceptual spectrum.

All based on the egomaniacal drivel of an illiterate, plagiarizing pedophile warlord.

32 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:28:54pm

re: #10 Wyatt Earp

He "awaits Christ?" I wonder how well that'll go over in Turkey and the surrounding areas?

Last year, in the Lizard Lounge, we had a muslim from Turkey who went by the nic "Fuzuli". Fuz told me that Jesus would return to correct and implement shari'a law upon the Earth- so this makes perfect sense to me. I wish I had known all this last year in my battles with him- I would have asked him specifically if he was a follower of Harun Yahya, although at this point, I will lean towards this strong possibility that he was.

33 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:29:49pm

In many ways, I agree with Harun Yahya that Nazism was neo-Paganism.

34 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:29:50pm

Oh, goodie! Obfuscation has arrived!

35 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:30:15pm

re: #29 slokat

They call Christians, "children of the book"

I don't think they do that at all. I have never heard that phrase used outside of Saudi-funded PR efforts, or by anyone Muslim, Jihadist or no.

36 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:30:20pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

Great, so being a Catholic may not count for squat now? And I said all of those rosaries for nothing?!

37 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:30:38pm

Charles, have you considered putting all of these ID threads together in one place on the left side, kinda' like the fauxtography threads?

38 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:31:18pm

#24 Charles,
Yes, as it is with many Muslims.

I haven't read a lot about Yahya, but he doesn't seem typical. As was noted, he combines Sufism, Sunni, and Shia ideas. So, he wouldn't be typical, I guess.

39 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:31:18pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

What's he up to today? Banned?

40 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:31:20pm

re: #36 Wyatt Earp

FWIW- I told him that when Jesus returned, he was going to be pissed.

41 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:31:24pm

the turkish rop'ers who are funding the u.s. creation groups think they will be able to roll right over them when they need to or bring them in line w/ their own idea of where christ fits in in the moslem scheme of things.

42 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:31:50pm

well *** I *** didn't have ANYTHING to do with this. Go ID! Well... not really.. I'm not an ID'er... but you know that. :)

43 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:32:04pm

re: #30 Dianna

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I've been suffering major weirdness - first I had the eternal dotted circle, then I got dumped three threads back, then I was told I was not logged in, then I was accused of duplicate comments...I'm on Firefox 3, or whatever this latest version is titled.

Is LGF being strange, is the internet being strange, or should I bother my technical consultant, a.k.a., the Male of the Species?

I've had these same problems today, off and on. Seems to be OK now.

44 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:32:09pm

re: #39 medaura18586

I don't believe so- I think he gave up on us because he came to realize he was either going to be ignored or he was unable to revert any of us.

45 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:32:12pm

re: #28 Cognito

Charles,

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your headline.

It appears you're taking this quote...

... and trying to use it to insinuate that US creationist groups are in cahoots with radical Islam.

When the quote, of course, is simply -- and obviously -- belying the assertion that US creationists could possibly be funding this dude.

Help me out here.

Read the links, please. US creationists ARE in cahoots with this creep. It's a fact.

46 MPH  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:32:13pm

[Link: www3.nationalgeographic.com...]

MtDNA, inherited down the maternal line, was used to discover the age of the famous 'mitochondrial Eve' in 1987. This work has since been extended to show unequivocally that the most recent common female ancestor of everyone alive today was an African woman who lived in the past 200,000 years. Paleontology provides corroborating evidence that our species originated on this continent approximately 200,000 years ago.
47 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:32:47pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

Last year, in the Lizard Lounge, we had a muslim from Turkey who went by the nic "Fuzuli". Fuz told me that Jesus would return to correct and implement shari'a law upon the Earth- so this makes perfect sense to me. I wish I had known all this last year in my battles with him- I would have asked him specifically if he was a follower of Harun Yahya, although at this point, I will lean towards this strong possibility that he was.

What happened to him? Is he still around?

48 sngnsgt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:32:55pm

Adnan Akbar?

49 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:33:01pm

re: #43 reine.de.tout

It's been a rough LGF day, but to Dianna- I've had issues with LGF and FF3, so I switched to Safari.

50 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:33:17pm

re: #38 Pastorius

In other words, he's a crank, no matter whose standards are being applied?

51 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:33:18pm

re: #27 MajorPribluda

If I were Jihadi megabucks seeking to wedge Sharia into American law, I would certainly start by "greasing the wedge". This does not reflect upon the existing ID movement (which is already wrong and not at all science, yet certainly not Jihadi by any stretch), but it uses a more palatable ideology to drive the same legal mechanism.

Paraphrasing an old guy who knew what he was about: They will hang us with our own stupidity.

52 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:33:42pm

re: #47 reine.de.tout

The last time I saw Fuzuli was on another blog- I believe it was either Yon or Totten.

53 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:00pm

re: #44 Sharmuta

I don't believe so- I think he gave up on us because he came to realize he was either going to be ignored or he was unable to revert any of us.

Huh? Who?

54 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:02pm

if i was a u.s. creationist, i wouldn't trust these assholes. they are moslems who have twisted christianity to fit their own perverse scenario.

55 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:12pm

re: #43 reine.de.tout

Well, I'm here...but, man, was I confused.

56 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:14pm

re: #45 Charles

Read the links, please. US creationists ARE in cahoots with this creep. It's a fact.

I'm asking: Are you saying that the quote you put in bold is somehow indicative that American creationists are funded by radical Islam?

57 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:23pm

re: #28 Cognito

When the quote, of course, is simply -- and obviously -- belying the assertion that US creationists could possibly be funding this dude.

In your rush to attack, you've completely misunderstood the post.

58 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:36pm

re: #42 unixrab

well *** I *** didn't have ANYTHING to do with this. Go ID! Well... not really.. I'm not an ID'er... but you know that. :)

glutton for punishment, are you?

59 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:57pm

Harun Yahya begins his discussion of anti-Semitism with the following trope (which is typical of Muslims when discussing anti-Semitism)

"This term is generally understood as meaning "anti Jewish," but its basic meaning is a "hatred of Semitic peoples". The Semitic peoples are basically made up of Arabs, Jews and a few other Middle Eastern ethnic groups. "

Technically true, but not in the spirit of the term "Anti-Semitism" as it is used, or as it was invented to be used.

60 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:35:07pm

re: #35 Pawn of the Oppressor

I don't think they do that at all. I have never heard that phrase used outside of Saudi-funded PR efforts, or by anyone Muslim, Jihadist or no.

Ok , I have - seen this many times, in writings about why they will impose taxes & different rules for jews/christians that want to remain in their faiths. (v/s kill)

Will look for links

61 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:35:16pm

re: #56 Cognito

I'm asking: Are you saying that the quote you put in bold is somehow indicative that American creationists are funded by radical Islam?

"Somehow indicative?" Where did I write that?

You're getting ridiculous.

62 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:35:53pm

re: #57 Charles

In your rush to attack, you've completely misunderstood the post.

No attack here. Like I said orginally, maybe I'm misunderstanding it.

And that's why I asked you to help me out.

What is the bold quote meant to convey?

63 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:36:08pm

re: #52 Sharmuta

He may have been the one who sent me a creepy Islamist email on my LGF address, urging me to convert. It freaked me out and I pulled down my avatar since.

64 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:36:19pm

re: #58 reine.de.tout

I think we better put this in the on deck circle.

65 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:36:51pm

re: #62 Cognito

No attack here. Like I said orginally, maybe I'm misunderstanding it.

And that's why I asked you to help me out.

What is the bold quote meant to convey?

It's obvious, isn't it? The person quoted is raising the possibility that Harun Yahya is funding US creationists.

66 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:36:55pm

re: #49 Sharmuta

Ta!

I think, anyway. The thing was, I was on earlier, and even posted on comment before the weirdness - a reply to realwest. It was when I tried to reply to OR later on the thread that everything came to a strange and disturbing halt.

67 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:37:48pm

re: #20 Charles

More on this freak: Adnan Oktar.

Sal: Charles, this reminds me of the Flirty Fishing tactic used by the Children of God:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

68 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:37:49pm

re: #54 nyc redneck

You're assuming that they see beyond their agenda, and some of them don't.

69 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:38:01pm

re: #30 Dianna

Close your browser and dump your cache. Also, there have been some innernets glitches tonight, in which you might be caught up.

Are you using Zone Alarm, by any chance? If so, I might have a fix for you.

And by the way, I meant to tell you last night how much I admire your posts. You're a classy lady, particularly exemplified by your post to Cognito last night, which I dubbed Dianna's Cognito Hammer to your regret.

70 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:38:18pm

#50 Dianna,

In other words, he's a crank, no matter whose standards are being applied?

Heh.

I guess that's true.

But, I like his definition of Nazism as neo-Paganism.

The reason I like that definition is because it points out why people like GOV and others in their group (who claim to be of the Judeo-Christian tradition) ought to reject groups like the Vlaams Belang.

VB, BNP, and other ethnic nationalist groups hold blood to be more important than the character developed based upon adherence to law.

Our Western tradition is built on ideas communicated in words.

It is not built on blood.

Paganism is built on blood.

71 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:38:39pm

Boss has a tough gig.

72 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:38:40pm

re: #56 Cognito

Stop!

Go read the links before you start this!

73 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:38:50pm

re: #64 Sharmuta

I think we better put this in the on deck circle.

yes, and also this and this

74 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:39:10pm

re: #54 nyc redneck

if i was a u.s. creationist, i wouldn't trust these assholes. they are moslems who have twisted christianity to fit their own perverse scenario.

But US creationists DO trust Harun Yahya. They participate in his conferences in Turkey.

75 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:39:41pm

re: #33 Pastorius

In many ways, I agree with Harun Yahya that Nazism was neo-Paganism.

Sal: You could just as easily describe it as neo-lutheranism.

76 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:39:45pm

re: #73 reine.de.tout

LMAO!

77 jorline  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:39:53pm

re: #20 Charles

This guy is smegma.

78 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:40:06pm

re: #35 Pawn of the Oppressor

I don't think they do that at all. I have never heard that phrase used outside of Saudi-funded PR efforts, or by anyone Muslim, Jihadist or no.

"People of the Book" is indeed a common term, with a mixed history. It's a way of sorting the Hindu, (historical) Egyptian, Buddhist and various other polytheists from those more closely related to Islam, the monotheists. It both denigrates and preserves the status of those who wrote and lived by the volumes which Islam claims to have perfected.

/ptui.

79 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:40:31pm

re: #72 Dianna

Stop!

Go read the links before you start this!

But reading links is hard!

80 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:40:32pm

re: #58 reine.de.tout

glutton for punishment, are you?

dude.. i've been gettin' punished on the [Link: www...] it was called the [Link: www...] :)

81 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:40:36pm

re: #68 Dianna

You're assuming that they see beyond their agenda, and some of them don't.

i would say they don't understand islam.

82 realwest  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:40:43pm

re: #48 sngnsgt Don't know if you saw my reply to you re: working from home while on disability on the prior thread. I think it's number 430 or 431.

83 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:41:01pm

re: #59 Pastorius

Logical fallacy by ambiguity.

"The church would like to encourage theism.
Theism is a medical condition resulting from the excessive consumption of tea. Therefore: The church ought to distribute tea more freely."

I am accused of being anti-Semitic. But semites are made of Arabs, and I have no beef with Arabs, so see? I'm not an anti-semite. (Joo hating be damned)

It's the most stupid way out of the accusation I have ever heard.

84 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:41:30pm

I'm sure you're going to keep at this, Cognito, but you'll have to excuse me if I ignore you. I've had enough of your deliberately contrarian BS for one day.

85 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:41:33pm

re: #62 Cognito

Back up and read the links.

What are you doing, trying to get banned?

86 BLBfootballs  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:41:59pm

Very interesting. One can't help but notice that evolution is generally opposed by religious fundamentalists of every stripe.

87 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:42:04pm

re: #73 reine.de.tout

yes, and also this and this

all three of those minister to my soul! awesome. It's like what I go through sometimes here sometimes.

88 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:42:15pm

re: #65 Charles

It's obvious, isn't it? The person quoted is raising the possibility that Harun Yahya is funding US creationists.

I don't believe he is. At all.

I think he's simply saying the US creationists are relatively impoverished, compared to Yahya. It's a way of saying, "This dude's got serious dough."

The next step being, of course, that he is funded by the Saudis. Which the writer immediately addresses:


Edis doubted the rumors of funds from U.S. creationists, saying: "American creationists I talk to basically envy Harun Yahya's financial resources. If there were any fund flowing, it would be from Adnan Oktar to the creationists."

Saudi funding also seems unlikely because Oktar's message, while basically Sunni Muslim, mixes in Shi'ite and Sufi elements that clash with the kingdom's austere Wahhabi school of Islam.

The upshot, here, is that no one knows where this fellow gets his mad cash. Not that he's actually funding American creationists.

Am I totally misreading this?

89 Seerak  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:42:35pm

Makes perfect sense to me.

The Islamists have a dread fear that the force that civilized Christianity -- the secular Enlightenment -- might do the same to Islam. They don't want any of that pansy individual rights stuff getting in the way of their centuries-old holy wars. It therefore serves their ultimate goals to assist Christianity in becoming feral once more, as it was in the good ol' Dark and Middle Ages.

I would hope that Christianity can reject this movement, as Pope Benedict seems to be doing -- but when the mainstream consists of men like Roger Kimball, openly calling for us to refrain from thinking too deeply, one wonders where the minds that forced the religions to grow up and get along will come from this time.

90 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:43:06pm

re: #74 Charles

But US creationists DO trust Harun Yahya. They participate in his conferences in Turkey.

i would say they don't understand what they are up against.
they don't understand islam.

91 blue_like_jazz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:43:19pm

re: #88 Cognito


no

92 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:43:52pm

re: #81 nyc redneck

i would say they don't understand islam.

I think the US creationists think that the enemy of their enemy is their friend- the enemy in this case being evolution.

93 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:44:06pm

re: #60 slokat

Koran reference to Children of Israel being in the Book - http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?ty pe=DIV0&byte=429259

in partial answer to up the thread...

94 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:44:20pm

re: #70 Pastorius

Not all paganism! Or, not just paganism.

I will - to my deep embarrassment, but Joss Whedon got this right - quote Spike in season 5 of Buffy:

In the end, it all comes down to blood.

95 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:44:53pm

re: #92 Sharmuta

I think the US creationists think that the enemy of their enemy is their friend- the enemy in this case being evolution.

who said that... "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

96 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:45:28pm

Atlas of Creation --just lovely.

97 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:45:36pm

I'm walking dogs. I'll be back, if only to say goodnight.

98 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:45:54pm

re: #89 Seerak

Makes perfect sense to me.

The Islamists have a dread fear that the force that civilized Christianity -- the secular Enlightenment -- might do the same to Islam. They don't want any of that pansy individual rights stuff getting in the way of their centuries-old holy wars. It therefore serves their ultimate goals to assist Christianity in becoming feral once more, as it was in the good ol' Dark and Middle Ages.

I would hope that Christianity can reject this movement, as Pope Benedict seems to be doing -- but when the mainstream consists of men like Roger Kimball, openly calling for us to refrain from thinking too deeply, one wonders where the minds that forced the religions to grow up and get along will come from this time.

TL;DR. And poorly written.

99 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:46:25pm

re: #92 Sharmuta

I think the US creationists think that the enemy of their enemy is their friend- the enemy in this case being evolution.

Nice.

100 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:46:56pm

re: #85 Dianna

Back up and read the links.

What are you doing, trying to get banned?

No, I just read this a totally different way. Apparently I'm the only one. (Although I'll inevitably get emails saying, "Right on, Cog! We were right behind you! Just... quietly!")

Since the correct reading seems obvious to everyone else, I'll just shut my trap.

101 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:47:07pm

re: #92 Sharmuta

I think the US creationists think that the enemy of their enemy is their friend- the enemy in this case being evolution.

yes, and that is the sad part. because they would be wrong.

102 locke/demosthenes  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:49:26pm

I work in a biology lab that got one of the free Atlas of Creations in the mail. It's a fancy book with a high-quality cover and plenty of colorful pages. Probably costs a fortune to print these. We keep it around as a conversation piece for a good laugh.

103 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:49:27pm

re: #88 Cognito


Cognito read the link Charles kindly posted. Here's a list of speakers at on of Harun Yahya's conferences.
Professor Michael P. Girouard: a professor of biology at Southern Louisiana University.

Dr Edward Boudreaux: a professor of chemistry at the University of New Orleans.

Professor Carl Fliermans: A widely-known scientist in the USA and a microbiology professor at Indiana University.

Professor Edip Keha: A professor of biochemistry.

Professor David Menton: A professor of anatomy at Washington University.

Professor Duane Gish: Famous evolutionist expert.

ICR President Professor John Morris: the president of the Institute for Creation Research and a famous geologist.

Note not one of them is named Mohamed.

104 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:49:29pm

re: #4 patrickafir

It's sad to see Christianity in any way linked to the religion of peace.

It's that "the enemy of my enemy" crap. With a little Taqiyya thrown in.

Yes, there really are people who think it's not only acceptable but admirable to lie their asses off in order to promote what they believe is a Christian agenda.

105 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:49:38pm

re: #6 experiencedtraveller

Under every stone is a Saudi financier...

got salt? %-)

/sovereign remedy for slimy things

106 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:49:49pm

re: #101 nyc redneck

yes, and that is the sad part. because they would be wrong.

I like to call this the Alien vs Predator problem. I have an enemy, the Alien. his enemy is the Predator. Either one would gladly have me for lunch.

107 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:49:54pm

re: #85 Dianna

Back up and read the links.

What are you doing, trying to get banned?

*fumbles drink*

*gets up*

*trips over coffee table*

Are you going to take that Cognito? I say, 'to hell with Charles' link.' Do and say whatever contrarian bullshit you want here. Go ahead and get yourself banned. That'll show her.

Now, go on out there and stand up for yourself. Get yourself banned. Show us all.

Heh.

108 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:51:26pm

re: #107 Noam Sayin'

*fumbles drink*

*gets up*

*trips over coffee table*

Are you going to take that Cognito? I say, 'to hell with Charles' link.' Do and say whatever contrarian bullshit you want here. Go ahead and get yourself banned. That'll show her.

Now, go on out there and stand up for yourself. Get yourself banned. Show us all.

Heh.

Careful. Cognito might just shoot poor Spider Dianna.

109 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:52:10pm
110 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:53:59pm

re: #103 Neo Con since 9-11

Professor Duane Gish: Famous evolutionist expert.


Shouldn't that read creationist?

111 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:54:16pm

re: #108 MajorPribluda

Careful. Cognito might just shoot poor Spider Dianna.

Dianna can handle Cognito.

I just knew I favorited that for a good cause.

112 islamofauxware  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:54:50pm

On 8/31/08 for those who subscribe to EWTN, Woody Cozad will be performing his "Deconstruction of the Infallibility of the Theory of Evolution" - to the extent that you do not take yourself too seriously, even the pedestrian Darwinist might enjoy this as it sheds comedic light on the entire topic.

113 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:55:17pm

re: #105 redc1c4

evening red ...had to try to get banned on the last thread

114 Abu Al-Poopypants  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:55:32pm

re: #49 Sharmuta

It's been a rough LGF day, but to Dianna- I've had issues with LGF and FF3, so I switched to Safari.

This site's been hard to read the last few months even with FF 2.x. I keep getting timeouts and messages about unresponsive scripts.

115 Carridine  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:55:52pm

re: #88 Cognito

Am I totally misreading this?

Yes.

116 Uncle Pavian  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:56:12pm

How did al-Reuters get to be so credible all of a sudden?

117 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:56:31pm

re: #70 Pastorius

#50 Dianna,

In other words, he's a crank, no matter whose standards are being applied?

Heh.

I guess that's true.

But, I like his definition of Nazism as neo-Paganism.

The reason I like that definition is because it points out why people like GOV and others in their group (who claim to be of the Judeo-Christian tradition) ought to reject groups like the Vlaams Belang.

VB, BNP, and other ethnic nationalist groups hold blood to be more important than the character developed based upon adherence to law.

Our Western tradition is built on ideas communicated in words.

It is not built on blood.

Paganism is built on blood.

Sal: Actually, this is untrue. The Druids included Goths, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Frisians, Gauls, Celts, and Picts, among many others. What bound these disparate tribes together was a common faith and social order. Caesar actually described them:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

118 redc1c4[deleted]  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:56:40pm
119 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:56:56pm

re: #85 Dianna

Back up and read the links.

What are you doing, trying to get banned?

Boy, that's about as subtle as the endless lower case "g" 's we've endured for two weeks.

120 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:57:21pm

re: #110 Wendya

Shouldn't that read creationist?

If he were aiming for accuracy. But as an American, the first amendment gives him the right put what ever he wants on his business card. Mine says "Bra Inspector".

121 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:57:42pm

re: #114 Abu Al-Poopypants

This site's been hard to read the last few months even with FF 2.x. I keep getting timeouts and messages about unresponsive scripts.

are you with ATT/SBC Global?

/same issues

122 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:57:43pm

re: #114 Abu Al-Poopypants

Switch to Safari.

123 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:58:43pm

good night, all, it's been an interesting day. It's a privilege to be here among you, and thank you, Charles, for this site. With so many smart people and good minds, I learn something new every day. I don't know how you have time to keep up with this place and also have time to make a living.

Before I leave entirely, let me put this here. I saw this headline on the side to my right, under "Noblesse Oblige" (Thanos' site, I believe), and it's very interesting, for anyone wanting to see it.
Amish Save Children Through Genetic Science

124 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:59:31pm

re: #120 Neo Con since 9-11

If he were aiming for accuracy. But as an American, the first amendment gives him the right put what ever he wants on his business card. Mine says "Bra Inspector".

thereby exercising your 1st amendment right to screw up....

mine says "breast exam technician". why mess with the covers when you can get to the contents?

/white smoke

125 Gavriel  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:59:34pm

re: #107 Noam Sayin'
Laughing out loud. Noam, that was great.

I agree, cognito manages to sound (and be) contrary in accusing Charles of implying something as opposed to realizing that Charles is quoting the article.

On the other hand, cognito could easily be right...
Oops, I just re-read the article to show how cognito could be right, but it turns out I was mistaken. Sorry cognito, too bad.

126 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:00:09pm

#75 Sal,

Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, true.

But, Hitler was no friend of the Christian church. According to the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, one of the first groups Hitler went after, when he rose to power, was christian Pastors who would not swear allegiance to him above the Bible and their church.

127 bosforus  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:00:26pm

As long as we're on the subject...
The link is about, among other things, planarians being Pavlovianly taught to react to light, then feeding those planarians to others that weren't involved in the test yet reacting in the same way.

The only words needed to complete the first sentence are "Planarians hold the..."
[Link: books.google.com...]
Can't stick around to discuss, wish I could.

128 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:00:31pm

re: #120 Neo Con since 9-11

actually, i think that you have to have the proper credentials for some things on a business card: CPA, Attorney, Insurance and Real Estate Agent, and Private Detective --are the ones I can think of.

You are free to use "Bra Inspector" as far as I know.

129 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:00:32pm

Charles, I want to thank you for your series of posts exposing the ID crowd.

ID, creationism, etc., has NO place in anything that is funded by tax dollars in America, and If you truly believe in what America stands for, you would agree with me.

130 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:00:54pm

re: #113 Mel Lono

evening red ...had to try to get banned on the last thread

wtf were you thinking?

(should i go read or let it lie? %-)

131 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:01:13pm
Well-illustrated and free of theological jargon, they preach that Islam is the one true faith and Darwinism, by undermining religious belief, has led to the discord, atheism, terrorism and extreme political ideologies plaguing the world

So now Darwin is to blame for terrorism and al-qaeda? It's not The Origin of Species that's to blame for that, it's the koran.

132 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:01:31pm

#117 Sal

The Druids included Goths, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Frisians, Gauls, Celts, and Picts, among many others. What bound these disparate tribes together was a common faith and social order. Caesar actually described them:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I'll have to read about that.

133 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:01:31pm

re: #130 redc1c4

wtf were you thinking?

(should i go read or let it lie? %-)

its worth the trip

134 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:02:38pm

re: #69 Noam Sayin'

I've got to upding you for being so very nice to me. Thank you!

135 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:02:43pm

good night good folks,
i can't keep my eyes open any longer.

136 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:02:52pm

re: #95 unixrab

who said that... "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

137 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:03:16pm

re: #119 ornery elephant

What did I ever do to you?

138 Abu Al-Poopypants  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:03:17pm

re: #122 Sharmuta

Switch to Safari.

I suppose I could, but I hate Apple crap and this is the only site that causes me that kind of trouble.

139 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:03:55pm

re: #118 redc1c4

can i just shoot Cognito before he causes a spilled drink and pisses off our host any more than he already has?

i'll take the John Wayne defense for $1000: "What is 'He needed shootin.'?"

/zero tolerance for party fouls

Well, don't shoot Cogs. The furry little troll is actually handy in a pinch, so long as the MSM isn't part of the argument. I actually found myself agreeing with him and even up-dinging him! Nobody was more surprised than I.

I still think that what he does is a very intelligent form of soft-trolling, where instead of swear words, he uses "What. Me? Look I'm sorry, if, but, you see, ..."

I would have booted him long ago. Now I'd say he's part of the landscape.


And now I need that drink, red. I just defended Cogs AGAIN.

140 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:04:37pm

re: #126 Pastorius

#75 Sal,

Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, true.

But, Hitler was no friend of the Christian church. According to the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, one of the first groups Hitler went after, when he rose to power, was christian Pastors who would not swear allegiance to him above the Bible and their church.

and the bomb under the table that almost killed H--- was a plan by Bonhoeffer (a Lutheran Pastor) & his brother-in-law + other friends

141 Abu Al-Poopypants  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:04:39pm

re: #121 redc1c4

are you with ATT/SBC Global?

/same issues

No, I'm on Verizon Fios, but I was having the same trouble under my previous ISP.

142 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:04:46pm

re: #129 venjanz

Charles, I want to thank you for your series of posts exposing the ID crowd.

ID, creationism, etc., has NO place in anything that is funded by tax dollars in America, and If you truly believe in what America stands for, you would agree with me.

AHHHHH my tax dollars are already funding something that says I'm a liar, my church is lying, my ... my.. GRAMGRAM is lying... my little daughter has to listen to the evolutionist drivel without the slightest mentioning that "oh yes.. .92% of Americans believe in a a God or Higher Power" yeah.. leave that 36,000 strong census out. barf.

143 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:04:57pm

re: #123 reine.de.tout

Thanks for that link! I like the "never say never" quote.

144 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:05:11pm

re: #134 Dianna

You're a class act, and I meant to tell you that a long time ago. That well-mannered post last night reminded me that I've been remiss.

145 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:05:27pm

re: #100 Cognito

OK, I don't know what you're after, there. Maybe I'm too far into this, and have noticed too many connections, and therefore am not seeing alternatives.

If people agree with your reading they truly do need to speak up and tell the rest of us what we're missing.

146 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:06:07pm

re: #136 Salamantis

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

ah.. ok.. thanks!

147 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:06:15pm

since we are winding 'round a variety of subjects, and it's still early, i'd like to point out that Miguel (of LNDT fame) checked in late last night after a week or so of absence from the frivolity & fruitcup that LNL's revel in during the wee hours.....

it seems he had a "minor" stroke, and is coming along. i'd ask whomever it is that takes care of the Lizard Prayer List to add him & his loved ones to the intentions list, as appropriate, and ask that folks pass along the word as questions are asked.

148 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:07:09pm

re: #108 MajorPribluda

I'm innocent!

149 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:07:33pm

re: #133 Mel Lono

its worth the trip

got a pointer to where i should start?

/don't want to impact my drinking efficiency %-)

150 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:07:59pm

re: #138 Abu Al-Poopypants

I suppose I could, but I hate Apple crap and this is the only site that causes me that kind of trouble.

I happen to know that this site looks JUST FINE on a Mac using Safari. Yet I'm not on a Mac, and I'm not using Safari. G'head. Ask me how I know!

151 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:04pm

"Hitler was a Christian"
"Hitler was a Pagan"

etc.

Hitler is a screen where people project their bogeymen, I think.

From what I can tell, he had no religion. Religion (and "culture" in general) for him was just another mechanism of control. He invoked the mythical pagan past of Germanic peoples because it was a line of bullshit that worked. I don't believe any of that stuff about him being an occultist, or a closet Catholic, or what have you. Religions all feature cosmic accountability, and if there was one thing that ran absolutely contrary to Hitler's mental flow, it was the thought of being beholden to something outside himself.

152 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:07pm
Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, true.

I can debate that, but it hinges on things that we no longer take for granted.... and he hated the current (for his time) Pope more, than almost any other thing in his world.

153 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:13pm

re: #147 redc1c4

since we are winding 'round a variety of subjects, and it's still early, i'd like to point out that Miguel (of LNDT fame) checked in late last night after a week or so of absence from the frivolity & fruitcup that LNL's revel in during the wee hours.....

it seems he had a "minor" stroke, and is coming along. i'd ask whomever it is that takes care of the Lizard Prayer List to add him & his loved ones to the intentions list, as appropriate, and ask that folks pass along the word as questions are asked.

There's a Lizard Prayer List?

154 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:13pm

Well this is not good. Now I know how those pacifist peaceful Muslims feel when Islamists like the ones at CAIR and other Muslim groups promote their extremist agenda. Just as the Pope does not speak for Christians, the people at the Discovery Institute also does not speak for ID proponents. Many of us who believe in the Genesis account don't want it taught in science classes.

155 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:30pm

re: #147 redc1c4

Miquel had a stroke --oh my!

Prayers to Miquel!

156 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:43pm

re: #116 Uncle Pavian

How did al-Reuters get to be so credible all of a sudden?

Try googling Harun Yahya.

157 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:52pm

re: #10 Wyatt Earp

He "awaits Christ?" I wonder how well that'll go over in Turkey and the surrounding areas?

It is my, admittedly limited, understanding that muslim doctrine states that Jesus will return hand in hand with some other individual revered in islamic text.

158 freetoken  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:09:01pm

re: #147 redc1c4

Wow, that is some news. Hope he can recover completely.

159 sngnsgt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:09:17pm

re: #82 realwest

Don't know if you saw my reply to you re: working from home while on disability on the prior thread. I think it's number 430 or 431.

Got it, thanks. Check your e-mail. :-)

160 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:09:19pm

re: #129 venjanz

Charles, I want to thank you for your series of posts exposing the ID crowd.

ID, creationism, etc., has NO place in anything that is funded by tax dollars in America, and If you truly believe in what America stands for, you would agree with me.

How are you with Dung Mary, and Piss Christ?

161 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:09:19pm

re: #151 Pawn of the Oppressor

Hitler was a sociopath.

162 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:10:26pm

re: #142 unixrab

AHHHHH my tax dollars are already funding something that says I'm a liar, my church is lying, my ... my.. GRAMGRAM is lying... my little daughter has to listen to the evolutionist drivel without the slightest mentioning that "oh yes.. .92% of Americans believe in a a God or Higher Power" yeah.. leave that 36,000 strong census out. barf.

no one intelligent ever said you can't believe in G*d and evolution at the same time........

/no accounting for whack j*bs. %-)

163 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:10:33pm

I don't often agree with Cognito & he takes liberties that are not at all polite, but he is not a Troll.

I get tired of seeing that reference...

164 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:10:44pm

re: #157 Slumbering Behemoth

It is my, admittedly limited, understanding that muslim doctrine states that Jesus will return hand in hand with some other individual revered in islamic text.

Salman Rushdie, heh!

165 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:10:51pm

re: #147 redc1c4

since we are winding 'round a variety of subjects, and it's still early, i'd like to point out that Miguel (of LNDT fame) checked in late last night after a week or so of absence from the frivolity & fruitcup that LNL's revel in during the wee hours.....

it seems he had a "minor" stroke, and is coming along. i'd ask whomever it is that takes care of the Lizard Prayer List to add him & his loved ones to the intentions list, as appropriate, and ask that folks pass along the word as questions are asked.

Done. Amen

166 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:11:15pm

re: #142 unixrab

AHHHHH my tax dollars are already funding something that says I'm a liar, my church is lying, my ... my.. GRAMGRAM is lying... my little daughter has to listen to the evolutionist drivel without the slightest mentioning that "oh yes.. .92% of Americans believe in a a God or Higher Power" yeah.. leave that 36,000 strong census out. barf.

What amuses me is when people who enjoy, use, and in all ways benefit from science all day long (including at this very moment when they post on LGF) turn around and call one particular bit of science "drivel" because...

Well, I really don't know why. I guess that's why I find it funny, because if I didn't laugh, I'd cry.

If you think science is bullshit, then shut off your computer, throw out your phone, turn off your electricity, walk everywhere you go, and sell everything you own that isn't made of something synthetic.

167 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:11:31pm

re: #132 Pastorius

Caesar himself is worth reading.

Also read Pigott.

168 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:11:32pm

re: #157 Slumbering Behemoth

It is my, admittedly limited, understanding that muslim doctrine states that Jesus will return hand in hand with some other individual revered in islamic text.

Indeed. From the article itself:

Oktar said Koran verses and sayings of the Prophet Mohammed about the end of the world revealed Jesus would return soon as a Muslim to help Islam's savior, the Mahdi, defeat the Dajjal or Islamic Anti-Christ and establish Islam around the world.

"Our biggest project right now is to lay the grounds for the coming of Jesus Christ," he said. "We understand this is going to be in the next 20 to 25 years."

169 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:12:05pm

re: #147 redc1c4

thanks for the update Red - I missed that

170 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:12:14pm

re: #162 redc1c4

no one intelligent ever said you can't believe in G*d and evolution at the same time........

/no accounting for whack j*bs. %-)

Yeah... my Bible did... said that God hand made us from dust and breathed into us life... a soul... that animals don't have...

171 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:12:30pm

re: #126 Pastorius

#75 Sal,

Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, true.

But, Hitler was no friend of the Christian church. According to the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, one of the first groups Hitler went after, when he rose to power, was christian Pastors who would not swear allegiance to him above the Bible and their church.

You are in error here; tragic error.

- 95% of Hitler's Germans declared themselves officially as Christian.
- During the first years of Hitler's rule, 95 - 98% of this same population supported Nazi policies through regular referendum.
- Hitler never closed a church.
- Hitler banned pagans from school boards and banished pagan literature from the military.
- Hitler had to order some churches to remove his picture from their altars.
- The Hitler Youth had youth pastors and over 100 Hitler Youth camps had Bible teaching.
- The Gestapo raised funds for African missions.

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

172 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:12:50pm

re: #142 unixrab

Are you drunk, Uni? that reply was... bizarre.

173 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:12:53pm

re: #163 slokat

Cog wants to do nothing but take the contrarian position on whatever it is Charles posts. In that, he reminds me of nodrog.

174 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:12:55pm

re: #160 MajorPribluda

How are you with Dung Mary, and Piss Christ?

Strawman, No one here has defended either of those two taxpayer funded "exhibits".

175 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:13:00pm

re: #168 Sharmuta

I think a lot of islamawhackos might be suprised by what Jesus has to say about paradise.

176 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:13:21pm

re: #166 Pawn of the Oppressor

What amuses me is when people who enjoy, use, and in all ways benefit from science all day long (including at this very moment when they post on LGF) turn around and call one particular bit of science "drivel" because...

Well, I really don't know why. I guess that's why I find it funny, because if I didn't laugh, I'd cry.

If you think science is bullshit, then shut off your computer, throw out your phone, turn off your electricity, walk everywhere you go, and sell everything you own that isn't made of something synthetic.

I love science.

177 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:13:42pm

re: #142 unixrab

So?

Belief in a higher power doesn't necessitate belief in a flat earth, or a young earth, or ID.

Get a grip.

178 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:13:56pm

re: #147 redc1c4

since we are winding 'round a variety of subjects, and it's still early, i'd like to point out that Miguel (of LNDT fame) checked in late last night after a week or so of absence from the frivolity & fruitcup that LNL's revel in during the wee hours.....

it seems he had a "minor" stroke, and is coming along. i'd ask whomever it is that takes care of the Lizard Prayer List to add him & his loved ones to the intentions list, as appropriate, and ask that folks pass along the word as questions are asked.

Is he OK? What's his prognosis?

Miguel is my favorite Mexican.

(Well, him and the guy at a Texaco in Arlington who makes really great tacos fresh on the grill.)

179 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:14:28pm

re: #172 venjanz

Are you drunk, Uni? that reply was... bizarre.

why bizzare? not following.

180 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:14:33pm

re: #167 Dianna

Caesar himself is worth reading.

Also read Pigott.

Although by now, his tattoos must surely be fading.

181 Syrah  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:14:39pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

Last year, in the Lizard Lounge, we had a muslim from Turkey who went by the nic "Fuzuli". Fuz told me that Jesus would return to correct and implement shari'a law upon the Earth- so this makes perfect sense to me. I wish I had known all this last year in my battles with him- I would have asked him specifically if he was a follower of Harun Yahya, although at this point, I will lean towards this strong possibility that he was.

I have posted this before. I hope that I am not being too redundant in posting it again but it seems to dovetail with your comment here.

Will Islam Be Our Future?
A Study of Biblical and Islamic Eschatology

182 Abu Al-Poopypants  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:15:16pm

re: #150 MajorPribluda

I happen to know that this site looks JUST FINE on a Mac using Safari. Yet I'm not on a Mac, and I'm not using Safari. G'head. Ask me how I know!

Looks just fine on a PC using Firefox, but loads very slowly and keeps complaining about unresponsive scripts.

183 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:15:36pm

re: #140 slokat

and the bomb under the table that almost killed H--- was a plan by Bonhoeffer (a Lutheran Pastor) & his brother-in-law + other friends

Sal: and Martin Niemoller, who wrote the famous poem "First they came..." was originally one of Hitler's supporters.

184 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:15:49pm

re: #153 unixrab

Yes, and you're rude.

185 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:16:16pm

re: #177 Dianna

So?

Belief in a higher power doesn't necessitate belief in a flat earth, or a young earth, or ID.

Get a grip.

I don't believe in any of those things. .. well except an Almighty Higher power. (omniscient, omnipresent too)

186 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:16:43pm

re: #166 Pawn of the Oppressor

What amuses me is when people who enjoy, use, and in all ways benefit from science all day long (including at this very moment when they post on LGF) turn around and call one particular bit of science "drivel" because...

Well, I really don't know why. I guess that's why I find it funny, because if I didn't laugh, I'd cry.

If you think science is bullshit, then shut off your computer, throw out your phone, turn off your electricity, walk everywhere you go, and sell everything you own that isn't made of something synthetic.

I think an ID believer who accepts most or all of science minus the macro evolution part in no way means that they are unappreciative of science in general. I don't believe I have heard of any ID proponent said science is BS. It's the macro evolution that they have a problem with, not all of science.

187 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:17:13pm

re: #179 unixrab

I rest my case. 1st Amendment FTW!

188 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:17:14pm

re: #184 Dianna

Yes, and you're rude.

ah...well I want to be aware of it.. and on it if possible... sheeesh... from the other threads I wasn't sure such a thing existed.. not trying to be RUDE.

189 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:17:53pm

Anyone wanting to discuss anything with "unixrab" might want to check his/her posting history first.

Oh- and you'll most likely need this too.

190 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:18:05pm

re: #181 Syrah

I have posted this before. I hope that I am not being too redundant in posting it again but it seems to dovetail with your comment here.

Will Islam Be Our Future?
A Study of Biblical and Islamic Eschatology

That one just got to the pile/ tbd

191 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:18:12pm

re: #160 MajorPribluda

I don't know about him, but I was annoyed that either of them received public money.

Of course, I don't think artists should receive government checks except for purchased art - and I don't mean commissioned!

192 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:18:20pm

re: #189 Sharmuta

Anyone wanting to discuss anything with "unixrab" might want to check his/her posting history first.

Oh- and you'll most likely need this too.

and that's for dang sure thanx Sharmuta!

193 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:18:26pm

re: #153 unixrab

There's a Lizard Prayer List?

i have seen, on occasion when i get to the threads early enough in the night, that someone, i've forgotten who, posts a list of all those Lizards who have issues for which intercession is asked, by name, and with a specific intent that is to be addressed. it's there, somewhere.

having given up being Catholic for Lent one year, i'm not the most religious of Lizards, but i mock no one's heart felt and honestly practiced religious beliefs. (drawing the line @ cutting off my head, etc)
having been raised in the church, i recognize the importance it has to many, and the power, from whatever source it can grant.

i know Miguel will be comforted by the knowledge that his friends around the world are praying for him, each in their own way, and that he will benefit from this.

he's a good guy, from all i've seen, and i figure it's the least i can do for him.

194 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:18:44pm

re: #188 unixrab

ah...well I want to be aware of it.. and on it if possible... sheeesh... from the other threads I wasn't sure such a thing existed.. not trying to be RUDE.

Yeah- nothing like pushing your idea of Christianity onto the children of other people to give anyone the idea of rudeness.

195 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:19:46pm

re: #171 Salamantis

Hitler set up a "State" church that most / many (you choose) pastors/churches refused to be a part of...

His claims were as accurate in these matters as most of his other claims...

196 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:19:58pm

re: #192 unixrab

and that's for dang sure thanx Sharmuta!

I didn't do that to help you. I did it to help my fellow Lizards- many of whom would reject your notions if they take the time to look into them.

197 gman  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:20:04pm

It looks like "Atlas" is the first book in a seven part series

Since 2006 copies of a substantial, glossy and smartly packaged book called Atlas of Creation, credited to Harun Yahya, had been arriving at schools and universities across Europe. In Spain, France, Switzerland and Denmark clear evidence of the growing resources and confidence of European Muslim creationism was thudding on to the mat. The book is the first of a projected seven-part series, and parts two and three have already begun arriving at educational institutes Europe-wide..

Oktar has some serious resources

198 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:20:36pm

re: #193 redc1c4

i have seen, on occasion when i get to the threads early enough in the night, that someone, i've forgotten who, posts a list of all those Lizards who have issues for which intercession is asked, by name, and with a specific intent that is to be addressed. it's there, somewhere.

having given up being Catholic for Lent one year, i'm not the most religious of Lizards, but i mock no one's heart felt and honestly practiced religious beliefs. (drawing the line @ cutting off my head, etc)
having been raised in the church, i recognize the importance it has to many, and the power, from whatever source it can grant.

i know Miguel will be comforted by the knowledge that his friends around the world are praying for him, each in their own way, and that he will benefit from this.

he's a good guy, from all i've seen, and i figure it's the least i can do for him.

well if there's a list... I would like to add my name. so .... that's all.

199 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:20:48pm

This isn't about Hitler or browsers- this is about islamist and American creationists in bed with each other!

200 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:20:55pm

re: #180 MajorPribluda

If you don't know what I'm talking about, ask.

201 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:21:00pm

re: #163 slokat

I don't often agree with Cognito & he takes liberties that are not at all polite, but he is not a Troll.

I get tired of seeing that reference...

defining who is and isn't a troll isn't easy, and varies from practitioner to practitioner, like any other part of the psychology field.

at the very least, he's a shit stirrer.

202 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:21:12pm

re: #196 Sharmuta

I didn't do that to help you. I did it to help my fellow Lizards- many of whom would reject your notions if they take the time to look into them.

oh.. well I thank you anyway. less typing. cheers.

203 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:21:16pm

re: #185 unixrab

Oh, dear.

204 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:21:22pm

re: #183 Salamantis

Sal: and Martin Niemoller, who wrote the famous poem "First they came..." was originally one of Hitler's supporters.

And, most of the Jewish leaders/politicians originally went along with his demands.... so what does that prove?

205 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:21:54pm

re: #194 Sharmuta

Yeah- nothing like pushing your idea of Christianity onto the children of other people to give anyone the idea of rudeness.

I fail to see that reference.. but the rudeness I do NOT understand.

206 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:22:12pm

re: #188 unixrab

But you are.

207 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:22:14pm

re: #142 unixrab

AHHHHH my tax dollars are already funding something that says I'm a liar, my church is lying, my ... my.. GRAMGRAM is lying... my little daughter has to listen to the evolutionist drivel without the slightest mentioning that "oh yes.. .92% of Americans believe in a a God or Higher Power" yeah.. leave that 36,000 strong census out. barf.

Sal: Let me put this ungently and indelicately, so that it may - maybe - penetrate beneath your brow ridges and into your brain: the belief, or lack of same, in a god or higher power, doesn't have JACK SHIT to do with evolutionary theory one way or the other. If it did, then one billion plus Roman Catholics decided to convert to atheism, for their church accepts evolutionary theory as valid and sound science.

208 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:22:45pm

re: #186 Milk Toast Intolerant

What do you think of the FACT that ID is merely a "Find and Replace" operation whereby "creation" was replaced by "intelligent design"? Go back and watch the NOVA program that Charles posted a while back.

cdesign proponentsist!

209 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:22:47pm

re: #193 redc1c4

I want to say that it's kept by the goddess.. but am unsure

210 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:23:19pm

re: #197 gman

It looks like "Atlas" is the first book in a seven part series

Oktar has some serious resources

how do we get on the mailing list, to soak up said resources? %-)

211 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:23:22pm

re: #206 Dianna

I'm not trying to be.

212 Thanos  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:23:29pm

Here's another sign -- Amy Proctor's blog. Scroll down her sidebar, you see the Pope, her support for the war, conservative causes, then under creation and evolution: blam... Harun Yahya.

213 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:24:59pm

re: #201 redc1c4

shit stirrer, can't find that in my "Troll Job Manual"... must be a hobby?

/

214 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:25:17pm

re: #152 slokat

Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, true.

slokat: I can debate that, but it hinges on things that we no longer take for granted.... and he hated the current (for his time) Pope more, than almost any other thing in his world.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und iren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word treatise written by German Reformation leader Martin Luther in 1543.

In the treatise, Luther writes that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[3] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[4] afforded no legal protection,[5] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[6] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."[7]

215 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:25:41pm

re: #211 unixrab

Then I suggest you do some reading.

216 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:25:47pm

re: #207 Salamantis

Sal: Let me put this ungently and indelicately, so that it may - maybe - penetrate beneath your brow ridges and into your brain: the belief, or lack of same, in a god or higher power, doesn't have JACK SHIT to do with evolutionary theory one way or the other. If it did, then one billion plus Roman Catholics decided to convert to atheism, for their church accepts evolutionary theory as valid and sound science.

it's the other way around... you're teaching my kids that the bible is wrong. That is unacceptable.

... in a free country.

217 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:26:09pm

re: #215 Dianna

I might. suggestions?

218 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:26:12pm

re: #171 Salamantis

You are in error here; tragic error.

- 95% of Hitler's Germans declared themselves officially as Christian.
- During the first years of Hitler's rule, 95 - 98% of this same population supported Nazi policies through regular referendum.
- Hitler never closed a church.
- Hitler banned pagans from school boards and banished pagan literature from the military.
- Hitler had to order some churches to remove his picture from their altars.
- The Hitler Youth had youth pastors and over 100 Hitler Youth camps had Bible teaching.
- The Gestapo raised funds for African missions.

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

What's the tragic part of not associating Hitler with Christianity?

219 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:26:46pm

I'm not sure Oktar is actually a radical Islamist, but the fellow sure does enjoy photos of himself.

220 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:27:14pm

re: #214 Salamantis

Luther was an anti-semite, agreed. He was also a witch-hunter.

I'm not much of a fan of Luther's. But he wrote some remarkable music, which tends to make me pause and wonder what demons drove him.

221 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:27:32pm

re: #216 unixrab
Public school does not teach anything about the Bible! Right , wrong or otherwise.

222 Syrah  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:27:56pm

re: #190 Mel Lono

That one just got to the pile/ tbd

I don't know what your comment means here.

Assuming that you might have some interest in eschatology, Joel Richardson's work is recommendable.

I would also suggest looking into the religious beliefs of the Yezidi. Fascinating stuff, particularly when it comes to their take on Lucifer.

223 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:28:01pm

re: #216 unixrab

No.

You have donned blinders, and are trying to limit god.

224 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:28:07pm

re: #212 Thanos

Nice find.

225 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:28:49pm

re: #218 MajorPribluda

What's the tragic part of not associating Hitler with Christianity?

hey.. wait a minute... sometimes "christian" and "catholic" get mixed up as synonyms... they are not. Make sure your story is focusing on whether these are catholic's loyal to the pope or Christians... persecuted by both Protestants and Catholics for most of our history.

226 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:29:14pm

re: #223 Dianna

OK. but I asked.

227 gman  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:29:31pm

Click on any of the websites (33 total) listed on this page and guess what you find at the very bottom of each one?

Harun Yahya

228 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:29:33pm

re: #208 Dan G.

What do you think of the FACT that ID is merely a "Find and Replace" operation whereby "creation" was replaced by "intelligent design"? Go back and watch the NOVA program that Charles posted a while back.

cdesign proponentsist!

My point is that one doesn't have to accept everything that science has to offer to be considered appreciative of the luxuries afforded by science. Some people don't understand certain aspects of science, so they don't subscribe to it. Many ID believers don't believe in macro evolution and that upsets you?

229 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:29:47pm

re: #221 pingjockey

Public school does not teach anything about the Bible! Right , wrong or otherwise.

yes. indirectly.

230 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:29:57pm

And that was just one page of three.

I especially love the last shot, of him in a Versace t-shirt.

(Radical Islamist gear, though?)

231 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:30:15pm

re: #212 Thanos

Here's another sign -- Amy Proctor's blog. Scroll down her sidebar, you see the Pope, her support for the war, conservative causes, then under creation and evolution: blam... Harun Yahya.

I noticed she has LGF listed on her blog roll under "Top Brass"...is that another sign?

Oh and Mother Teresa is on her side bar too - I never realized that Mother Teresa was an ID Islamic conspirator and I'm not sure but all of the Pro-Israel listings on her side bar must reflect some link as well?

Although the Star Wars ad there has me a little confused.

232 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:30:38pm

re: #142 unixrab

AHHHHH my tax dollars are already funding something that says I'm a liar, my church is lying, my ... my.. GRAMGRAM is lying... my little daughter has to listen to the evolutionist drivel without the slightest mentioning that "oh yes.. .92% of Americans believe in a a God or Higher Power" yeah.. leave that 36,000 strong census out. barf.

You know.... belief in God doesn't negate the theory of evolution.

Okay...well, obviously you think it does but that doesn't make it true.

Fortunately, we generally don't pander to personal beliefs when it comes to public education.

233 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:30:43pm

re: #170 unixrab

Yeah... my Bible did... said that God hand made us from dust and breathed into us life... a soul... that animals don't have...

Sal: Your Bible also said that Pi = 3, and the epicyclic game of sophist rhetorical twister that is played to justify that one is stupendous to behold.

234 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:31:19pm

re: #217 unixrab

Just read the freakin' links.

I don't - really - understand the urge of some Christians to limit god's power to the understanding of people who weren't real clear on how fire was made, who decided which animals were "clean" on criteria that relied on visible criteria, but even then had to insert exceptions, and had no clue about the germ theory of disease.

235 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:31:41pm

re: #228 Milk Toast Intolerant

No. What I'm speaking to is the FACT that ID is a fraud. I don't care if someone is a creationist, I just care if they're attacking my Constitution. If you want to associate your self with a fraudulent cause, that's your choice. I was just trying to let you know the history of that "movement".

236 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:31:51pm

re: #174 Neo Con since 9-11

Strawman, No one here has defended either of those two taxpayer funded "exhibits".

venjanz said:

If you truly believe in what America stands for, you would agree with me.

I want to see if his venom extends as far in one direction as it does in the other. As it is, I do agree with his original statement, but the second part seems a needless bomb to toss.

Thanks for playing.

237 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:31:51pm

re: #232 Wendya

You know.... belief in God doesn't negate the theory of evolution.

Okay...well, obviously you think it does but that doesn't make it true.

Fortunately, we generally don't pander to personal beliefs when it comes to public education.

It's also MY kids attending your 'public education' at my expense...

238 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:32:05pm

re: #230 Cognito

looks like a child molestor

239 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:32:26pm

re: #233 Salamantis

Sal: Your Bible also said that Pi = 3, and the epicyclic game of sophist rhetorical twister that is played to justify that one is stupendous to behold.

we went through that... didn't you read the info?

240 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:33:10pm

re: #176 unixrab

I love science.

Sal: Lemme guess; you love creation science; right?

Oxymoron alert...

241 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:33:36pm

re: #240 Salamantis

Disarm you with a smile.

242 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:34:03pm

re: #233 Salamantis

Sal: Your Bible also said that Pi = 3, and the epicyclic game of sophist rhetorical twister that is played to justify that one is stupendous to behold.

It did? I don't recall either the Old or New Testaments taking a position on the value of Pi!

I recall some legislature came close to doing so, but there's no biblical support for such a notion.

243 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:34:05pm

re: #131 Sharmuta

So now Darwin is to blame for terrorism and al-qaeda? It's not The Origin of Species that's to blame for that, it's the koran.

A Darwingo took mah bay-bee!

244 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:34:12pm

Whoever buys Oktar's books for him apparently also buys his clothes. He appears to wear Versace exclusively.

I never trust a religious man in jewelry.

245 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:34:13pm

re: #237 unixrab
Yep, and mine, and Achmeds, and Yuris, and a whole lot of other folks who aren't Christian burt some other faith. Do you propose to teach just the Christian version of creation or all faiths versions?

246 Carridine  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:34:47pm

re: #216 unixrab
"...teaching my kids that the Bible is wrong..."?

Science is taught in science class, the Bible and Biblical truths in Bible study...

Science is science. If your understanding of the Bible seems (to use your word) 'wrong', then adjust YOUR thinking, for God would not lie or deceive you, even when speaking in literal symbols.

The Holy Bible is true, but it isn't science...

247 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:34:51pm

re: #199 Sharmuta

Such discussion inevitably degenerate to Hitler. I think there is a law about it --Godwin's or Gresham's? I have a difficult time remembering such things.

Easier to avoid them.

248 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:35:09pm

re: #240 Salamantis

Sal: Lemme guess; you love creation science; right?

Oxymoron alert...

No! I like all the crazy science ! I like the Universe and the constellations and realizing that none of you have the faintest idea that God controls time and therefore can do with it what He wills... .inclucing filling in a 12Billion years of light like you fill in a graph paper with point A to point B --- done. next

249 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:35:19pm

Night all.

250 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:35:28pm

re: #185 unixrab

I don't believe in any of those things. .. well except an Almighty Higher power. (omniscient, omnipresent too)

Sal: And that belief does not demand that you reject evolutionary theory as the sound and valid science that it is.

251 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:36:07pm

re: #246 Carridine

"...teaching my kids that the Bible is wrong..."?

Science is taught in science class, the Bible and Biblical truths in Bible study...

Science is science. If your understanding of the Bible seems (to use your word) 'wrong', then adjust YOUR thinking, for God would not lie or deceive you, even when speaking in literal symbols.

The Holy Bible is true, but it isn't science...

The bible mentions science twice - once positively and once negatively. It's pretty relevant.

252 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:36:22pm

re: #170 unixrab

Yeah... my Bible did... said that God hand made us from dust and breathed into us life... a soul... that animals don't have...

my cats are loving, intelligent beings with personality and if they're not there in your Paradise when i die, i'd rather be where they go then spend eternity with the likes of you.

mostly because kicking your sorry ass 24/7/365 forever would get boring: at least da Boyz are entertaining.

not to mention, loving, kind and caring. attributes you seem to be sorely lacking in, among others.

/HTH. HAND. YAAA. ESAD.........

253 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:36:24pm

re: #200 Dianna

If you don't know what I'm talking about, ask.

I have only the faintest idea that you are referring to texts written by one of the Caesars. Just a grammar joke.

254 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:37:06pm

re: #248 unixrab

So you rejoice in leashing god to your own inadequate understanding?

How interesting. And how very sad.

255 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:37:39pm

re: #214 Salamantis

I could read that to you in German, if you'd like.

He pulled no punches & hated the merchants that were not following their own religious rules but taking advantage of the peasants around him.

Heck, in German he sounds alot like at marxist socialist. He was against almost everything that was establishment. (to his credit or not)

But, he reserved even more harsh criticism for his Pope.

256 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:37:47pm

re: #250 Salamantis

Sal: And that belief does not demand that you reject evolutionary theory as the sound and valid science that it is.

Yes, Sal, it does.. God either formed the race of Man MANUALLY from the dust of the ground of Eden and then breathed his essence into him giving him a soul or we are so-much glorified tadpoles.

(+3billion yars)

257 RTLM  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:37:52pm

re: #230 Cognito

And that was just one page of three.

I especially love the last shot, of him in a Versace t-shirt.

(Radical Islamist gear, though?)

One vain SOB...

(Islamic metrosexual?)

258 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:38:08pm

re: #251 unixrab

The bible mentions science twice - once positively and once negatively. It's pretty relevant.

Citations? The entire Bible's on line, these days, in multiple versions. Please link your preferred translation.

259 Racer X  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:38:19pm

re: #244 Cognito

I never trust a religious man in jewelry.


Or one who drives fancy cars, lives in a mansion, surrounded by babes, etc.

260 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:38:27pm

re: #142 unixrab

Oops! Mis-ding, please ignore it, my finger slipped.

ugh, I am so embarrassed

261 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:38:42pm

re: #254 Dianna

So you rejoice in leashing god to your own inadequate understanding?

How interesting. And how very sad.

He knows I'm a moron.. just trying to help out. He doesn't usually care unless I'm sending people directly to Hell because of me.. but we've seen no evidence of that.

262 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:39:19pm

re: #253 MajorPribluda

Go to Amazon and try Caesar's Conquest of Britain.

Also just try Stuart Pigott, The Druids.

263 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:39:22pm

re: #260 Slumbering Behemoth

Oops! Mis-ding, please ignore it, my finger slipped.

ugh, I am so embarrassed

hahah riiiiiiight... check the other thread for the world record in dings. humph!

264 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:39:33pm

re: #195 slokat

Hitler set up a "State" church that most / many (you choose) pastors/churches refused to be a part of...

His claims were as accurate in these matters as most of his other claims...

Sal: Yeah; one group of churches continued to support him after the Final Solution was put into action and became more or less public knowledge ,and another group did not. Both groups were Christian. Both groups had many member churches.

265 Syrah  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:00pm

re: #244 Cognito

I never trust a religious man in jewelry.

I too am distrustful of someone who claims to be religious and who is also so obviously vain about their attire.

266 realwest  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:03pm

re: #159 sngnsgt Got your e-mail and I've replied to you! Check your e-mail, please.

267 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:22pm

re: #213 slokat

shit stirrer, can't find that in my "Troll Job Manual"... must be a hobby?

/

i'm gonna be one next week: went to HRH's hospital last night for 4 hours to help out, and found a fax.

staffing company was looking for people to cover a strike here in CA. being a shit, and a *broke* shit at that, that i am, i called up.

i have to report in caturday evening, orientate on sunday, and w*rk 0700-1900 all week. they put me up in a hotel, and the pay is not bad....

plus it's a state facility, so i'm protecting my tax dollars whilst spending them. %-)

268 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:27pm

I think at least half of any given religious document is pure bullshit, but that doesn't mean I don't keep the Tanakh on my nightstand.

269 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:39pm

re: #256 unixrab

Yes, Sal, it does.. God either formed the race of Man MANUALLY from the dust of the ground of Eden and then breathed his essence into him giving him a soul or we are so-much glorified tadpoles.

(+3billion yars)

I am loathe to dip a toe into the whole Creation/Not-Creation discussion, but I am curious: Is it not possible that the very earliest stories in the Bible are metaphorical in the same way the very last ones are?

270 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:40pm

re: #258 Dianna

Citations? The entire Bible's on line, these days, in multiple versions. Please link your preferred translation.

the AV - accept no substitutes.

271 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:42pm

re: #259 Racer X

Or one involved in video taped rape, blackmail, etc...

Wikipedia

272 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:46pm

re: #235 Dan G.

No. What I'm speaking to is the FACT that ID is a fraud. I don't care if someone is a creationist, I just care if they're attacking my Constitution. If you want to associate your self with a fraudulent cause, that's your choice. I was just trying to let you know the history of that "movement".

What is your beef with my original response to Pawn of the Oppressor? I know it's not about whether or not ID is a fraud. POTO seemed to imply that just because someone doesn't subscribe to one part of science, it automatically makes them hypocrites for partaking of the bountiful luxuries the rest of science has to offer. I'm not here to support ID being taught in science class, and I am already aware of the creationism/ID "evolution."

273 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:41:09pm

re: #261 unixrab

You're not helping your case.

274 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:41:25pm

re: #254 Dianna

So you rejoice in leashing god to your own inadequate understanding?

How interesting. And how very sad.

i feel sorry for g*d, but one must assume she knows what she's doing....

/kinda like being married %-)

275 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:41:38pm

re: #269 Cognito

I am loathe to dip a toe into the whole Creation/Not-Creation discussion, but I am curious: Is it not possible that the very earliest stories in the Bible are metaphorical in the same way the very last ones are?

ANYTHING'S possible.. but PROBABLE... no.. look at darwinism. Not probable.

276 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:42:08pm

re: #273 Dianna

augh.. I have a case? help!

277 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:42:10pm

re: #263 unixrab

Its quite apparent that you are a persona non grata and yet you continue to hang out here. Why?

278 Carridine  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:42:35pm

re: #251 unixrab

Yes, RELEVANT to this thread, this discussion... I was just saying that trying to make science the evil bad guy here, 'teaching MY KIDS that the Bible is wrong' is specious reasoning.

Science teaches that which is observable, can be observed, and we record our observations.

Science is a method of examining Reality.

To twist that into a refutation of Biblical truth is inappropriate, a non sequitur AND a strawman argument.

Gotta go. BBIAW as K

279 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:42:48pm

re: #269 Cognito

Oy!

It will depend on who you ask. And it's contentious.

280 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:42:51pm

re: #204 slokat

re: #183 Salamantis

Sal: and Martin Niemoller, who wrote the famous poem "First they came..." was originally one of Hitler's supporters.

And, most of the Jewish leaders/politicians originally went along with his demands.... so what does that prove?

Sal2: That they made a drastic mistake in being passive and hoping that if they rolled over and did not offend, people would leave them alone. They will never decide that way again.

281 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:42:59pm

re: #268 Pawn of the Oppressor

I think at least half of any given religious document is pure bullshit, but that doesn't mean I don't keep the Tanakh on my nightstand.

i have a bottle of scotch on mine, and the only part i don't really like is the glass, but it does it's j*b, so i have no real grounds to complain.

/except it gets empty so damn fast..... %-)

282 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:43:00pm

re: #277 Dan G.

And why are people engaging him/her? It's like talking to a brick wall.

283 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:43:05pm

re: #272 Milk Toast Intolerant

I wasn't speaking to the context of your exchange with pawn. I've stated my reason. Take it or leave it.

284 Racer X  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:43:09pm

Cognito keeps things grounded interesting.

Not a troll.

Definitely contrarian.

285 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:43:37pm

I asked God to create an object he could not lift once. He stroked his beard, looked at me, patted my shoulder, and then laughed.

We went out for some beers and became good friends.

286 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:43:37pm

re: #270 unixrab

the AV - accept no substitutes.

Where are your citations?

No more ducking - link your cites!

287 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:44:00pm

re: #277 Dan G.

Its quite apparent that you are a persona non grata and yet you continue to hang out here. Why?

I like Charles politics and keen eye for cool news and awesome breaking stuff - and I'm anti-islamofacism and a fiscal and social conservative.

288 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:44:04pm

re: #237 unixrab

It's also MY kids attending your 'public education' at my expense...

If you want your children indoctrinated to believe that the earth is flat, women are supposed to cover their hair and man was created from dust, you're going to have to do it in your OWN home and stop asking the government to do it for you.

I swear.... some of you are worse than the leftists when it comes to expecting government to be mommy and daddy.

289 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:44:44pm

re: #154 Milk Toast Intolerant


Just as the Pope does not speak for Christians, the people at the Discovery Institute also does not speak for ID proponents. Many of us who believe in the Genesis account don't want it taught in science classes.

One minor quibble: The people at the Discovery Institute are the ones who coined the term Intelligent Design as a cover to push Creationism into public schools. They not only speak for ID proponents, they are THE major proponents of ID.

290 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:44:49pm

re: #286 Dianna

Where are your citations?

No more ducking - link your cites!

huh.. there wasn't a link in 286?

291 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:45:03pm

re: #275 unixrab

ANYTHING'S possible.. but PROBABLE... no.. look at darwinism. Not probable.

Excellent. So we agree it's possible that the Creation story, as presented in Genesis, is possibly metaphorical.

Just like that, we've eliminated the tension between faith and science.

Done.

292 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:45:08pm

re: #277 Dan G.

Its quite apparent that you are a persona non grata and yet you continue to hang out here. Why?

Let Charles decide that.

293 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:45:35pm

re: #256 unixrab

Yes, Sal, it does.. God either formed the race of Man MANUALLY from the dust of the ground of Eden and then breathed his essence into him giving him a soul or we are so-much glorified tadpoles.

(+3billion yars)

I don't see how we have any less dignity in being evolved from the very atoms of creation over a span of time that we can't even comprehend. A tadpole is a mind-blowing miracle compared to a blue algae, and finding a blue algae on another planet, ANY planet, would be among the greatest events in human history.

To not see this, or refuse to see it, is an act of chauvinism, conceit, and frankly, a denial of G-d.

Books are small, even old ones. The universe is bigger and more instructive than any old book, no matter how holy. Hence, science.

294 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:45:35pm

re: #288 Wendya

If you want your children indoctrinated to believe that the earth is flat, women are supposed to cover their hair and man was created from dust, you're going to have to do it in your OWN home and stop asking the government to do it for you.

I swear.... some of you are worse than the leftists when it comes to expecting government to be mommy and daddy.

but they want my money to oppose me... and they take it every month! c'mon!

295 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:46:05pm

re: #280 Salamantis

re: #183 Salamantis

Sal: and Martin Niemoller, who wrote the famous poem "First they came..." was originally one of Hitler's supporters.

And, most of the Jewish leaders/politicians originally went along with his demands.... so what does that prove?

Sal2: That they made a drastic mistake in being passive and hoping that if they rolled over and did not offend, people would leave them alone. They will never decide that way again.

If you asked most Lutherans, they would side with you in that regard.

296 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:46:07pm

re: #287 unixrab

Then just stay off the threads you disagree with!

297 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:46:16pm

re: #261 unixrab

He knows I'm a moron.

So......

You're saying God created a moron?

298 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:46:38pm

re: #292 Milk Toast Intolerant

Let Charles decide that.

He knows I'm not offensive, or lying or being a name-caller or anything other than a respectful dissenter. ask him.

299 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:47:14pm

re: #290 unixrab

To the whole bloody site! Not to your specific references.

No games! Either link where the Bible likes and dislikes science, or stop this.

300 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:47:15pm

re: #292 Milk Toast Intolerant

Uh? Of course Charles decides whether he's allowed to post here, but based on his interactions here no one likes him (except maybe you). Why would anyone want to be somewhere where they're amongst friends? Especially in a leisure time activity like chatting in the comments thread of a blog.

301 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:47:21pm

re: #297 Wendya

So......

You're saying God created a moron?

No. God created Adam and Eve. Through their sin... and generations of the effects of sin and (non helpful) mutations... you got moron.

302 Timbre  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:47:22pm
"Darwinism thinks it has deceived the entire world's populace like little children. This ideology presents coincidence as having divine consciousness, and asserts that it somehow possesses an amazing genius and greater knowledge than all of the people of the world. According to the evolutionists, time is the only thing necessary for this "genius" called coincidence to shape the brains of all those humans who have lived over thousands of years."

--Harun Yahya, "Consciousness in the Cell - 1," in Al-Jumuah, Volume 19, issue 1, January-February 2007.

303 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:47:53pm

re: #294 unixrab

but they want my money to oppose me... and they take it every month! c'mon!

What...you think our system of government was created specifically to support YOUR beliefs and goals?

304 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:48:02pm

re: #300 Dan G.

err. "...not amongst friends"

305 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:48:17pm

re: #301 unixrab

No. God created Adam and Eve. Through their sin... and generations of the effects of sin and (non helpful) mutations... you got moron.

Apparently, in your case.

306 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:49:15pm

re: #216 unixrab

it's the other way around... you're teaching my kids that the bible is wrong. That is unacceptable.

... in a free country.

Sal: Wrong again. Your kids are free to study their bible at home, in the park, in church, in private sectarian religious schools, even in public schools after hours, if they themselves get together (not led by faculty) and request a room to meet.

What they are NOT allowed to do is to have their teachers foist religion off as science in public school science class. ANY religion. Not just yours.

307 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:49:32pm

re: #299 Dianna

ohhh sorry. ... ok.. what links would you like? The earth has a hydrological cycle (years before it was discovered) ... the earth is round and has a circumference..before columbus ...science was studied in Rome and a thousand or so years before in Chaldea (Babylon) ... I am your googler!

308 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:49:46pm

re: #281 redc1c4

i have a bottle of scotch on mine, and the only part i don't really like is the glass, but it does it's j*b, so i have no real grounds to complain.

/except it gets empty so damn fast..... %-)

That's one of the things about being Lutheran & enjoying the Hebrew scriptures...

"my cup runs over"

309 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:49:49pm

re: #289 Slumbering Behemoth

One minor quibble: The people at the Discovery Institute are the ones who coined the term Intelligent Design as a cover to push Creationism into public schools. They not only speak for ID proponents, they are THE major proponents of ID.

Creationism, Intelligent Design......same thing to me. Bible believing Christians know that, and I forget when DI was appointed spokespeople for creationist/ID proponents.

310 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:49:58pm

re: #305 Wendya

Apparently, in your case.

that's what I said.. keep up.

311 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:50:25pm

Dianna, I don't think he understands what you're asking.

312 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:50:27pm

re: #309 Milk Toast Intolerant

When they created the term.

313 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:50:30pm

re: #296 Dianna

Then just stay off the threads you disagree with!

I'm curious Dianna. I've seen you use capital letters tonight for "Amazon" , "Christians", "New Testament" and quite frankly, every other word deserving of capitalization except when you type "god." Can you tell me why you do that?

314 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:50:59pm

re: #225 unixrab

hey.. wait a minute... sometimes "christian" and "catholic" get mixed up as synonyms... they are not. Make sure your story is focusing on whether these are catholic's loyal to the pope or Christians... persecuted by both Protestants and Catholics for most of our history.

Are you fucking insane? I'm taking Salamantis to task for possibly* smearing Christians (all Christians, I would wager) from an ignorant neo-Pagan POV, and you want to get into it about fine differences in Christian sects?

* Not sure, Sal, if that ignorant POV is yours or not. Not calling you ignorant without clarification.

315 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:51:25pm

re: #218 MajorPribluda

What's the tragic part of not associating Hitler with Christianity?

Sal: Because Hitler DID make use of Christianity...horrible use. And those who do not learn from such terrible lessons are more likely to repeat them the next time some charismatic individual with terrible plans winks seductively at their faith.

316 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:51:30pm

re: #306 Salamantis

Sal: Wrong again. Your kids are free to study their bible at home, in the park, in church, in private sectarian religious schools, even in public schools after hours, if they themselves get together (not led by faculty) and request a room to meet.

What they are NOT allowed to do is to have their teachers foist religion off as science in public school science class. ANY religion. Not just yours.

I know this.. I volunteer at a local middle school for early morning bible studies and a few songs. But they still have to go to "science" class and hear how the Bible is stupid and ignorant religious ramblings.. which is not so. It is truth.

317 Racer X  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:52:00pm

re: #311 Cognito

Dianna, I don't think he understands what you're asking.

Really?

I do - and I'm really slow.

318 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:52:07pm

re: #291 Cognito

Excellent. So we agree it's possible that the Creation story, as presented in Genesis, is possibly metaphorical.

Just like that, we've eliminated the tension between faith and science.

Done.

In my understanding

First telling is an oral history.
Second telling is a hymn.

(Hebrew scholars - please tell me if I understand that wrong)

319 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:52:45pm

re: #315 Salamantis

Sal: Because Hitler DID make use of Christianity...horrible use. And those who do not learn from such terrible lessons are more likely to repeat them the next time some charismatic individual with terrible plans winks seductively at their faith.

I would say the question is not whether Hitler made use of Christianity, but whether Christianity made use of Hitler.

Of course not.

Also of course, any good thing can be misused.

320 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:53:25pm

re: #314 MajorPribluda

Are you fucking insane? I'm taking Salamantis to task for possibly* smearing Christians (all Christians, I would wager) from an ignorant neo-Pagan POV, and you want to get into it about fine differences in Christian sects?

* Not sure, Sal, if that ignorant POV is yours or not. Not calling you ignorant without clarification.

uh.. is that rhetorical? Don't worry.. Sal doesn't like me much... so if you don't either...well.. .someone said "the person that doesn't like me can be allies with the other person that doesn't like me..". or something like that.

321 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:53:41pm

re: #300 Dan G.

Uh? Of course Charles decides whether he's allowed to post here, but based on his interactions here no one likes him (except maybe you). Why would anyone want to be somewhere where they're amongst friends? Especially in a leisure time activity like chatting in the comments thread of a blog.

What is your problem with people not sharing your views? LGF isn't an echo chamber. Few people get along with Cognito, but he hasn't been disrespectful or belligerent. I don't know unixrab but if he's anything like Cognito or Naso Tang or even Gordon, I don't mind having him around.

322 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:54:00pm

re: #307 unixrab

In other words, you can't - or won't - supply your citations.

323 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:54:19pm

re: #315 Salamantis

Sal: Because Hitler DID make use of Christianity...horrible use. And those who do not learn from such terrible lessons are more likely to repeat them the next time some charismatic individual with terrible plans winks seductively at their faith.

major props.. this is true.

324 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:54:31pm

re: #237 unixrab

It's also MY kids attending your 'public education' at my expense...

you might wanna fall back and regroup on that:

i'm also paying for your little genetic dead ends to go to school, and i get a say in what they are given to ignore on their way to dropping out and becoming even more of a burden on society.

if you only want them to get your personally approved, flat earth, it all happened in 7 days "education", do us all a favor and pull them out of public school to either a private institute of ignorance of your choice or keep them at home until they are old enough to escape your clutches. of course you'll have to suck it up and pay for that out of your won pocket, but if your beliefs are that strong, it shouldn't be a problem.

that way the rest of the kids will have a chance to actually learn something useful, and you can play g*d with the lives you were entrusted with. with luck, and a few years of therapy & remedial education, they'll overcome your 'love'.

325 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:54:42pm

re: #308 slokat

That's one of the things about being Lutheran & enjoying the Hebrew scriptures...

"my cup runs over"

;DSHLKJFLI'EEEEEEEEEEEEAazsxcsaxcdsc

Damn i hat when i pass out and my nose hits the keyboard...

326 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:54:57pm

re: #313 ornery elephant

I'm a pagan.

No, that does not mean a fuzzy bunny worshipper.

327 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:55:23pm

re: #316 unixrab

But they still have to go to "science" class and hear how the Bible is stupid and ignorant religious ramblings.. which is not so. It is truth.

No shit? They're teaching the bible in your kid's science class?

Or... are you taking the position that no subject in school is allowed to deviate in any way from what you seem to think is in the Bible?

Just out of curiosity, are you fluent in Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Aramaic?

328 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:55:27pm

re: #322 Dianna

In other words, you can't - or won't - supply your citations.

citations for whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat!?

329 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:55:52pm

re: #315 Salamantis

Sal: Because Hitler DID make use of Christianity...horrible use. And those who do not learn from such terrible lessons are more likely to repeat them the next time some charismatic individual with terrible plans winks seductively at their faith.

Question Sal. Which do you think is a bigger threat to this world - Christianity or islamofascism?

330 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:56:07pm

re: #275 unixrab

ANYTHING'S possible.. but PROBABLE... no.. look at darwinism. Not probable.

true: it's likely.

/unlike "creationism", in any flavor.

331 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:56:41pm

re: #225 unixrab

hey.. wait a minute... sometimes "christian" and "catholic" get mixed up as synonyms... they are not. Make sure your story is focusing on whether these are catholic's loyal to the pope or Christians... persecuted by both Protestants and Catholics for most of our history.

Sal: (performs double-take)...Whaaaat?!? So now neither Protestants or Catholics are, according to you, Christians? Whatever's left must not be a substantial percentage.

I once briefly corresponded with a scandinavian guy who informed me that he and his 26 friends were the only true Christians in the world, but he had doubts about 7 of them.

332 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:57:03pm

re: #316 unixrab

I know this.. I volunteer at a local middle school for early morning bible studies and a few songs. But they still have to go to "science" class and hear how the Bible is stupid and ignorant religious ramblings.. which is not so. It is truth.

and your proof of this "truth" is what, exactly?

333 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:57:12pm

re: #327 Wendya

No shit? They're teaching the bible in your kid's science class?

Or... are you taking the position that no subject in school is allowed to deviate in any way from what you seem to think is in the Bible?

Just out of curiosity, are you fluent in Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Aramaic?

Greek mostly. But it's Koine dialect... it's no longer spoken...so I can guess at how it's spoken...but it's just a guess. Hebrew no.. can't go left to right, Latin... no... too many 's's and aramaic.. it's kinda a hybrid... never got it..

334 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:03pm

re: #333 unixrab

Greek mostly. But it's Koine dialect... it's no longer spoken...so I can guess at how it's spoken...but it's just a guess. Hebrew no.. can't go left to right, Latin... no... too many 's's and aramaic.. it's kinda a hybrid... never got it..

Then how do you know what the Bible really says? You're depending on flawed men to translate it for you.

335 Racer X  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:03pm

re: #331 Salamantis

I once briefly corresponded with a scandinavian guy who informed me that he and his 26 friends were the only true Christians in the world, but he had doubts about 7 of them.

LOL!

*eyes the room*

336 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:04pm

re: #331 Salamantis

Sal: (performs double-take)...Whaaaat?!? So now neither Protestants or Catholics are, according to you, Christians? Whatever's left must not be a substantial percentage.

I once briefly corresponded with a scandinavian guy who informed me that he and his 26 friends were the only true Christians in the world, but he had doubts about 7 of them.

hey! Well I'm glad to let you know.. that both Protestants and Catholics killed us during the reformation.

337 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:12pm

re: #308 slokat

That's one of the things about being Lutheran & enjoying the Hebrew scriptures...

"my cup runs over"

pour slower or drink faster....

/MORE CHANGE!

338 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:14pm

Uni, are you a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, or just a magnificent troll?

339 freetoken  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:21pm

re: #212 Thanos

Oktar must have some serious dough.... I just downloaded his (very beautifully illustrated) book (volume 1) in Japanese.

日本語だよ!
創造のアトラ&# 12473;と言う本は 365;れいですねӍ 0;。。。


I wonder in how many languages total he plans on publishing.

340 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:33pm

re: #311 Cognito

He's being obtuse, and it's his own fault. Trace the chain back - he indicates that the Bible states support for science once and lack of support once. I'm not a Biblical scholar, but that doesn't ring any bells for me.

I want citations to specific passages supporting what he stated. I'll accept any version, provided he actually has specific, in context, citations. That means that he doesn't take three words out of a long passage and claim it supports his position.

341 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:43pm

re: #312 Dan G.

When they created the term.

So the Discovery Institute appointed themselves spokespeople for the creationist/ID crowd, and that automatically means the creationist/ID crowd will support their agenda?

342 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:57pm

re: #326 Dianna

I'm a pagan.

No, that does not mean a fuzzy bunny worshipper.

Is a pagan different than an atheist?

343 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:59:37pm

re: #334 Wendya

Then how do you know what the Bible really says? You're depending on flawed men to translate it for you.

no no.. anointed men! "of many worthy men who went before us, there should be one more exact Translation of the holy Scriptures into the English Tongue

344 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:59:42pm

re: #287 unixrab

I like Charles politics and keen eye for cool news and awesome breaking stuff - and I'm anti-islamofacism and a fiscal and social conservative.

you left out 'raving lunatic'....

/here to help!

345 realwest  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:59:51pm

re: #147 redc1c4 I've e-mailed Miguel and have e-mailed the goddessoftheclassroom just now.
If you know or hear of anything more concerning my good friend Miguel, please e-mail me (my nic is in blue).
Thank you.

346 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:59:56pm

re: #338 venjanz

Uni, are you a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, or just a magnificent troll?

neither!

347 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:00:23pm

re: #321 Milk Toast Intolerant

Straw man. I'm not arguing with those who don't share my views (actually quite high here since I'm an atheist). What I'm doing is ascertaining whether you are knowingly partaking in the ID fraud or not. I initially granted you the benefit of the doubt and assumed not, and was attempting to draw your attention to it. But the fact that you have no problem associating yourself with a movement which was designed to be subversive by initially claiming that it was not religious and that it was not just creationism demonstrates that you too agree with their assault on the Constitution that costed the Dover taxpayers quit a bit of dough.

Once again. I don't care what others believe. I do care when they fraudulently try to pass creationism off as science in a direct infringement of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

348 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:00:23pm

re: #340 Dianna

He's being obtuse, and it's his own fault. Trace the chain back - he indicates that the Bible states support for science once and lack of support once. I'm not a Biblical scholar, but that doesn't ring any bells for me.

I want citations to specific passages supporting what he stated. I'll accept any version, provided he actually has specific, in context, citations. That means that he doesn't take three words out of a long passage and claim it supports his position.

No, I know -- it's just the baldness of his inability to back it up made me think maybe he didn't understand what you were asking him to provide.

349 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:00:46pm

re: #344 redc1c4

you left out 'raving lunatic'....

/here to help!

sheeesh.. Charles isn't a raving anything about anything. He's very level headed and meticulous.

350 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:00:52pm

re: #331 Salamantis

LOL - fully understand what you mean & LOL!

351 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:01:08pm

re: #269 Cognito

I am loathe to dip a toe into the whole Creation/Not-Creation discussion, but I am curious: Is it not possible that the very earliest stories in the Bible are metaphorical in the same way the very last ones are?

Bearing in mind the discussions here lately, I was re-reading Genesis/Bere'Shit just yesterday with this in mind, wondering how much of modern science was reflected in the old words. Take 1-3 for example:

"When God began to create heaven and earth - the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water - God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light."

Earth unformed, the "deep" is dark, there is wind, and then there is light... If you think of the evolution of the solar system, disregarding the wet interpretation of "water", it comes close enough for government work: "Winds" blow between the stars, matter coalesces, a proto-star forms, fusion begins, and then there is light. It sounds like the birth of our sun.

Then the rest, I won't quote (too lengthy), but each point:

- A separation of light from dark, which means that Earth is now a body that rotates relative to the light.

- Expanse separating the "water", I'm not sure about the old etymology of water in translating Hebrew to English (I have the JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh, and I don't read Hebrew unfortunately). Either way the sky is formed, which is the creation of an atmosphere for Earth. It took a while for the atmosphere to form according to scientific models, and for a while it wasn't anything we'd consider breathable, but there WAS a sky.

- Separation of seas and land. Real liquid water came to Earth fairly late in the game, if I recall correctly, possibly deposited by comets to some extent.

Things diverge from the scientific model here, the book skips right to the making of trees, etc. and THEN the creation of other stars before getting to the ambulatory critters. I understand that the earliest life on earth, over time, actually helped change the composition of the atmosphere - I think the current model is that blue algae were around for millions of years before there was significant oxygen in the atmosphere? But I wouldn't guess that it was really cloudy during this time, and then you could see stars afterwards. ;)

352 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:01:12pm

re: #346 unixrab

Somehow, I don't believe you. You are having too much fun.

353 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:01:16pm

re: #229 unixrab

re: #221 pingjockey

Public school does not teach anything about the Bible! Right , wrong or otherwise.

unixrab: yes. indirectly.

Sal: It must be horribly fearful to suspect an evangelizing relativist secular humanist atheist behind every teacher's desk...and think of the other kids!

You must strive to preserve their pure essence!

354 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:01:17pm

re: #261 unixrab

He knows I'm a moron.. just trying to help out. He doesn't usually care unless I'm sending people directly to Hell because of me.. but we've seen no evidence of that.

hell is other people, so by definition, you are responsible for at lest some damnations.....

now what?

355 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:01:54pm

re: #328 unixrab

Follow the chain back.

It's not my fault that I can keep to the point.

356 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:01:54pm

re: #342 ornery elephant


as a start, I would say that a pagan believes in something, though he knows not what.... An atheist believes in nothing, except the hope that she is right.

357 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:02:05pm

re: #341 Milk Toast Intolerant

They created ID. You use the term, you accept the association. Period.

358 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:02:18pm

re: #342 ornery elephant

Yes.

I am most certainly not an atheist.

359 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:03:07pm

re: #337 redc1c4

LOL - I have an abundance so why should I restrict my glass from enjoying it's share?

//...or the table, the floor, the dog?

360 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:03:21pm

re: #315 Salamantis

Sal: Because Hitler DID make use of Christianity...horrible use. And those who do not learn from such terrible lessons are more likely to repeat them the next time some charismatic individual with terrible plans winks seductively at their faith.

Okay, fair enough. So long as you are making a general statement about people being led by the abuse of one ideology in the service of another, we agree. But I balk at the claim that Hitler and "the Christians" (be they Catholic in this source, or Protestant in that) were in cahoots, and that this is somehow a shameful chapter for Christianity as a whole. And I think you will agree that this POV is popular with many (I am not claiming a majority) of Pagans.

361 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:03:21pm

re: #345 realwest
Same here, Red C. Concerned for Miguel.

Nite, Lizards. Missed too much of this thread to really comment.

Play nice.

362 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:03:45pm

re: #352 venjanz

Somehow, I don't believe you. You are having too much fun.

Do! I'm not taking any of the personal stuff seriously.. .so if you brush off the namecalling and the occasional slur.. it's still fun lively debate with a brand new crowd! But do whatever..

363 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:03:50pm

re: #342 ornery elephant

Is a pagan different than an atheist?

yes....

364 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:04:25pm

re: #358 Dianna

Yes.

I am most certainly not an atheist.

I guess what I'm trying to determine is when you type "god" in lower case are you referring to the god you believe in or are you referring to the G_d of the Christian and Jewish faiths?

365 realwest  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:04:50pm

re: #354 redc1c4
Please see my #345 re: Miguel!

366 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:05:19pm

re: #353 Salamantis

367 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:05:28pm

re: #331 Salamantis


I once briefly corresponded with a scandinavian guy who informed me that he and his 26 friends were the only true Christians in the world, but he had doubts about 7 of them.

This sounds like the punchline of a really good joke, but I'll be damned if I can think of a good setup.

368 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:05:28pm

re: #362 unixrab

It's more than that, I can detect the glee in your comments that transcends simple "debate."

369 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:05:52pm

re: #366 unixrab

that was supposed to be an arrow pointing up or left saying "kubrik fan"

370 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:06:08pm

re: #237 unixrab

It's also MY kids attending your 'public education' at my expense...

I guess that makes you special, just like every other parent. Shall we allow all of THEM to pack their personal religious beliefs into public high school science classes, too? The Hindus have a nifty creation model; so do the Buddhists. But they don't resemble yours one whit.

371 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:06:10pm

You have a hard-on right now, don't you?

372 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:06:10pm

re: #368 venjanz

It's almost juvenile.

373 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:06:26pm

re: #356 Mel Lono

Incorrect.

I won't discuss my beliefs, beyond that I have them. I respect religious belief; I do not share every single shred of belief proposed.

This pretty much ends any statement I have to make.

374 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:07:14pm

re: #342 ornery elephant

Is a pagan different than an atheist?

Very much so. Ahem. Speaking as an Agnostic, that is.

375 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:07:27pm

re: #263 unixrab

hahah riiiiiiight... check the other thread for the world record in dings. humph!

I gave you a plus by accident. As far as this so called "world record in dings" goes, you don't even come close to ranking, son, no matter how much you want to play the victim.

376 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:07:37pm

re: #362 unixrab

Do! I'm not taking any of the personal stuff seriously.. .so if you brush off the namecalling and the occasional slur.. it's still fun lively debate with a brand new crowd! But do whatever..

That's a great attitude, unixrab. It'll carry you a long way here, and see you through some pretty nasty disagreements. But if you do make a claim -- like you did about two Biblical references to science, one yea and one nay -- then it's good form to provide a citation.

Just a word to the wise.

377 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:07:55pm

re: #370 Salamantis

I guess that makes you special, just like every other parent. Shall we allow all of THEM to pack their personal religious beliefs into public high school science classes, too? The Hindus have a nifty creation model; so do the Buddhists. But they don't resemble yours one whit.

I should have the ability to send my property tax money to a school that supports me and my family's beliefs AS should the Buddhists. and Wiccans.

378 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:08:24pm

re: #364 ornery elephant

I'm being careful. I do not believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God.

It seems to me unfair - and deceptive - to use the upper case "God" when I do not share that belief.

379 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:08:35pm

re: #347 Dan G.

Straw man. I'm not arguing with those who don't share my views (actually quite high here since I'm an atheist). What I'm doing is ascertaining whether you are knowingly partaking in the ID fraud or not. I initially granted you the benefit of the doubt and assumed not, and was attempting to draw your attention to it. But the fact that you have no problem associating yourself with a movement which was designed to be subversive by initially claiming that it was not religious and that it was not just creationism demonstrates that you too agree with their assault on the Constitution that costed the Dover taxpayers quit a bit of dough.

Once again. I don't care what others believe. I do care when they fraudulently try to pass creationism off as science in a direct infringement of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

I believe in the Genesis account, but I don't support creationism/ID being taught in science class. Can you differentiate between those?

380 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:08:42pm

re: #239 unixrab

we went through that... didn't you read the info?

Sal: of course I read your linked 'info'; that's what I was referring to when I referred to the "epicyclic game of sophist rhetorical twister" being played in order to justify the ludicrous.

381 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:08:56pm

Ken Ham is one of the leaders of the creationist movement in Australia. He was one of about 4 speakers at a post-9/11 event I attended with a friend at a local church in Virgina.

On a hunch, I did a search on "Ken Ham" + Turkey
and turned up several items:
The Creation Museum emerges as a learning institution Pic caption: "Ken Ham, founder of the Creation Museum."

Aljazeera Covers the Grand Opening of the Creation Museum
by Michael Patrick Leahy

Mohammed Alami (on the left), Washington correspondent for the Aljazeera Television Network, at the Grand Opening of the Creation Museum is interviewed by Michael Patrick Leahy (on the right), Managing Editor of Christian Faith and Reason Magazine

On Saturday, May 26, 2007 the two bravest men in the state of Kentucky were Mohammed Alami, the Moroccan born Washington based correspondent for the Aljazeera Television network, and his Palestinian born cameraman, who had been assigned by their bosses in Quatar to cover the opening of the Creation Museum.
The only Muslims at the event, the two men did their best to blend in to the sea of mainly white, Christian faces listening to the "creation/gospel" of Ken Ham.

The threat from creationism to the rational teaching of biology (1/2) Excerpt:

Turkey may well constitute the most important source of creationist propaganda outside the USA, and it certainly explains much of the success of creationists in attracting support from Muslim students in the UK, Germany and France. Large meetings in modern congress centres with high attendance (Anonymous, 1998) illustrate the high degree of financial support, as does extensive publication of creationist texts (Anonymous, 2005): the book Evolution Deceit is available not only in Turkish and English, but also in French, German, Spanish, Italian, Russian and Arabic, and circulated in many countries, definitely including Argentina, and possibly others in Latin America (Anonymous, 2007c). Recently the profusely illustrated and expensively produced Atlas of Creation from the same source (Anonymous, 2007d) has been distributed in several languages free of charge to teachers, schools and universities in different countries.

Ken Ham - Dinosaurs Lived with People (video)

How Harun Yahya and the Discovery Institute changed my mind

Harun Yahya and Islamic Creationism

382 Racer X  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:09:29pm

Belief is very personal; thats why it's called faith.

383 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:10:02pm

re: #381 abolitionist

Ken Ham - Dinosaurs Lived with People (video)

That's got to be one heck of a video.

384 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:10:11pm

re: #376 Cognito

That's a great attitude, unixrab. It'll carry you a long way here, and see you through some pretty nasty disagreements. But if you do make a claim -- like you did about two Biblical references to science, one yea and one nay -- then it's good form to provide a citation.

Just a word to the wise.

OHHHHHHH GOT IT... (sorry dense) Daniel and the other 3 children of Israel are the positive mention of Science

and Paul mentions to Timothy the nasty side of science "falsely so called"

That's... Dan. 1:4 and Itim 6:20 sorry.

385 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:10:48pm

re: #377 unixrab

Nope. Sorry. The Constitution regards that as an establishment of religion.

Get over it.

386 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:11:16pm

re: #357 Dan G.

They created ID. You use the term, you accept the association. Period.

Because you said so. Wow, I didn't even know I was associated with the Discovery Institute. That's news to me.

387 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:11:37pm

re: #379 Milk Toast Intolerant

Verrrrry sssslowly. ID is a fraud. Why do you hang on to it. Honest creationists just say creationism. As regards you question. That's fine. You beliefs aren't my problem. You are OK keeping them out of science class. Great. But you look/sound like either a shill or a rube when you endorse ID.

388 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:12:25pm

re: #385 Dianna

Nope. Sorry. The Constitution regards that as an establishment of religion.

Get over it.

soooo I have to fund, mandatory ... schools that contradict our Bible in the area of Science and Creation. greeeeeeat.. . .. that sux for me huh?

389 RTLM  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:12:34pm

re: #382 Racer X

Belief is very personal; thats why it's called faith.

That's the most coherent and true comment on this thread so far.

Faith indeed.

390 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:13:10pm

re: #386 Milk Toast Intolerant

Watch the damned NOVA video.

391 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:13:25pm

re: #383 Cognito

That's got to be one heck of a video.

It's very short, and it's Ken Ham & creationism in a nutshell.

If ever you find anything more anti-science (besides islam) let me know, ok?

392 Metal Man  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:13:26pm

I tend to stay out of the ID threads and this is why.

I do most days believe there is a higher power (but we all have days like Job).
I am a trained scientist of sorts.
I recognize that which science will never explain.
I have a hard time arguing against ID taught in Public Schools since they are already sorely lacking in actually teaching real science.
I have an even harder time arguing for teaching ID (2 wrongs don't make a right).

393 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:13:45pm

re: #386 Milk Toast Intolerant

I think that makes you what is known as a "useful idiot".

394 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:14:12pm

ok.. sheesh.. it's 1:11am.. I gotta work , but I'll check back with you guys tomorrow. ! Sleep Well... thanks for the debate.. Thanks again Charles. ! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

395 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:14:39pm

re: #242 Dianna

It did? I don't recall either the Old or New Testaments taking a position on the value of Pi!

I recall some legislature came close to doing so, but there's no biblical support for such a notion.

Sal: 1 Kings 7:23 ¶ And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

Ten across and thirty around makes pi=3.

396 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:15:16pm

re: #384 unixrab

Ah...

Daniel 1:4:

youths in whom was no defect, who were good-looking, showing intelligence in every branch of wisdom, endowed with understanding and discerning knowledge, and who had ability for serving in the king's court; and he ordered him to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans.

and 1 Timothy 6:20:

Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the pointless discussions and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.

I leave to anyone else's judgment whether these refer to science positively and negatively.

I don't think so, but...well...I expect my opinion to be dismissed.

397 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:15:57pm

Ladies and gent's, Uni is wasting your time, and laughing hysterically behind his keyboard every time you respond to him. The longer and more thought out your response, the harder he laughs.

He might even believe what he says, but it doesn't matter. He's carrying on for his own entertainment.

398 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:16:05pm

re: #388 unixrab

It sucks to be a lot of us.

Get over it.

399 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:16:34pm

re: #396 Dianna

"... what is falsely called knowledge."

Is that like ID? ;)

400 Racer X  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:17:17pm

re: #396 Dianna

Avoid the pointless discussions and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.


Word.

I'm out.

401 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:17:33pm

re: #248 unixrab

No! I like all the crazy science ! I like the Universe and the constellations and realizing that none of you have the faintest idea that God controls time and therefore can do with it what He wills... .inclucing filling in a 12Billion years of light like you fill in a graph paper with point A to point B --- done. next

Sal: And you just love a god who would lie to us poor rubes, all over the world and beyond, in his book of nature, just to get his divine rocks off? In that case, what makes you think he told those ancient rubes who wrote the Bible the truth?

402 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:17:45pm

re: #392 Metal Man

Job never really doubts; his wife urges him, "Curse God and die," but he won't.

He just wants to know why these horrible things are happening to him. God just says he isn't wise enough to know.

403 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:18:56pm

re: #395 Salamantis

If it's a circle, no it doesn't.

I remember that much geometry!

404 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:19:07pm

re: #251 unixrab

The bible mentions science twice - once positively and once negatively. It's pretty relevant.

Sal: Back then they didn't have science, even if they used the word. They didn't have a scientific method or a verification principle or a principle of falsifiability. No comparison.

405 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:19:37pm

re: #384 unixrab

OHHHHHHH GOT IT... (sorry dense) Daniel and the other 3 children of Israel are the positive mention of Science

and Paul mentions to Timothy the nasty side of science "falsely so called"

That's... Dan. 1:4 and Itim 6:20 sorry.

Well. Let's have a look.

The first one, in your preferred iteration:


Daniel 1:3-5 (New International Version)

3 Then the king ordered Ashpenaz, chief of his court officials, to bring in some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility- 4 young men without any physical defect, handsome, showing aptitude for every kind of learning, well informed, quick to understand, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the language and literature of the Babylonians. [a] 5 The king assigned them a daily amount of food and wine from the king's table. They were to be trained for three years, and after that they were to enter the king's service.

And the second:

1 Timothy 6:19-21 (King James Version)

19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

20O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

21Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

The first seems to be a plaudit for Daniel's understanding of science: Thumbs up for scientific study.

The second a bit tricky, but seems to be an admonishment to avoid entanglement with bad science, the downfall of some other believers. That meaning is clearer in the New International Version: "20Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. "

So. Thumbs up all around for good and honest science.

Right?

406 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:19:50pm

re: #316 unixrab

I know this.. I volunteer at a local middle school for early morning bible studies and a few songs. But they still have to go to "science" class and hear how the Bible is stupid and ignorant religious ramblings.. which is not so. It is truth.

You are so full of crap. If that were actually happening in any public school the teacher spouting such nonsense would be disciplined, if not fired.

407 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:19:55pm

re: #361 Pvt Bin Jammin

Same here, Red C. Concerned for Miguel.

Nite, Lizards. Missed too much of this thread to really comment.

Play nice.

well, *that's* no fun.... (t3h 1nterwb3s are a full contact sport! %-)

408 RTLM  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:19:56pm

I think everyone here should go read the book of Ezekiel: 37-39.

You might find some timely parallels

409 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:19:56pm

re: #399 Dan G.

I'm not allowed to respond, because I'm clearly the bad person here.

410 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:20:39pm

re: #403 Dianna

circumference = pi * diameter.

30 = pi * 10

3 = pi

411 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:20:53pm

re: #388 unixrab

soooo I have to fund, mandatory ... schools that contradict our Bible in the area of Science and Creation. greeeeeeat.. . .. that sux for me huh?

Yep. It certainly sucks to be you.

412 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:03pm

re: #395 Salamantis

Sal: 1 Kings 7:23 ¶ And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

Ten across and thirty around makes pi=3.

Hhmm, using local terms in a culture that doesn't use decimals (or zero?) and accurate to within 1 cubit? sounds like science

413 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:09pm

re: #397 venjanz

Ladies and gent's, Uni is wasting your time, and laughing hysterically behind his keyboard every time you respond to him. The longer and more thought out your response, the harder he laughs.

He might even believe what he says, but it doesn't matter. He's carrying on for his own entertainment.

venjanz,

at this point in time, if "uni" hadn't shown up, I doubt the thread would have hit 100 comments.

414 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:17pm

re: #387 Dan G.

Verrrrry sssslowly. ID is a fraud. Why do you hang on to it. Honest creationists just say creationism. As regards you question. That's fine. You beliefs aren't my problem. You are OK keeping them out of science class. Great. But you look/sound like either a shill or a rube when you endorse ID.

ID is a religious belief, and last I heard, people are allowed to have religious beliefs. Maybe you're into the semantics game, but to me, creationism and ID are the same thing; different packaging, same content.

415 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:32pm

re: #391 abolitionist

It's very short, and it's Ken Ham & creationism in a nutshell.

If ever you find anything more anti-science (besides islam) let me know, ok?

I was just making a little joke. The phrasing...

Ken Ham - Dinosaurs Lived with People (video)

... makes it look like he's got video of people frolicking with dinos.

416 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:45pm

re: #255 slokat

I could read that to you in German, if you'd like.

He pulled no punches & hated the merchants that were not following their own religious rules but taking advantage of the peasants around him.

Heck, in German he sounds alot like at marxist socialist. He was against almost everything that was establishment. (to his credit or not)

But, he reserved even more harsh criticism for his Pope.

Sal: I know all about the 95 theses Martin Luther nailed to the Wittenburg church door. But that didn't encompass all of him, by a longshot.

417 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:49pm

re: #405 Cognito

I don't agree; neither seems to support his contention. But I don't think I'm allowed to comment, as I said above.

418 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:52pm

re: #409 Dianna

Why?