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Radical Muslim Funding US Creationist Groups?

Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 9:11:19 pm PDT

Here’s an interesting article with lots of detail on the Turkish radical Islamic creationist Harun Yahya (real name: Adnan Oktar), who has joined forces with US creationist groups like the Institute for Creation Research, to promote their Dark Ages anti-science agenda around the world: Muslim creationist preaches Islam and awaits Christ.

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Harun Yahya is one of the most widely distributed authors in the Muslim world. He may also be among the most widely criticized Muslim authors in the Western world.

His glossy books and DVDs on religion and science sell in Islamic bookshops around the globe. He gives away thousands of expensive volumes and lets readers download much of his work from his websites for free.

The Council of Europe accuses him of trying to infiltrate schools with religious extremism and French teachers are told to keep his work from their students.

Unknown outside Muslim circles two years ago, Adnan Oktar — the 52-year-old Turk behind the pseudonym Harun Yahya — caught the attention of scientists and teachers in Europe and North America by mass-mailing them his 768-page “Atlas of Creation”. His lavishly illustrated book preaches a Muslim version of creationism, the view scientists usually hear from Christian fundamentalists who say God created all life on earth just as it is today and oppose the teaching of Darwin’s evolution theory.

“Every academic I know says they’ve got one of those,” retired University of Edinburgh natural history professor Aubrey Manning told the Glasgow Herald when “The Atlas” turned up in Scotland early this year. “And it’s peddling an absolute, downright lie.”

But Oktar, whose reclusive ways and opaque business have prompted many rumors about why and how he gives away so many books, brushed off all criticism in a rare interview with Reuters. “This huge impact shows the influence of the book,” the author, stylishly turned out in a white suit, red tie and clipped beard, said through an interpreter.

The controversy stirred up by “The Atlas” has turned the spotlight on a publishing empire that boasts about 260 books in 52 languages, over 80 DVDs and dozens of websites.

Well-illustrated and free of theological jargon, they preach that Islam is the one true faith and Darwinism, by undermining religious belief, has led to the discord, atheism, terrorism and extreme political ideologies plaguing the world. ...

The flood of free books prompted suspicion among baffled Western scientists and teachers that U.S. creationists or Saudi financiers might be helping finance the campaign.

Oktar said the giveaways — he estimated them at about 10,000 out of print runs of over 200,000 — were normal public relations funded by profits from sales of “The Atlas” and other books.

“That seems implausible — this book is expensive,” said Taner Edis, a Turkish-American physicist whose 2007 book “An Illusion of Harmony” analyzed Islam’s approach to science. “And to my knowledge, it’s not selling like hotcakes.”

Edis doubted the rumors of funds from U.S. creationists, saying: “American creationists I talk to basically envy Harun Yahya’s financial resources. If there were any fund flowing, it would be from Adnan Oktar to the creationists.

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1847 comments

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1 MPH  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:13:19pm

Looks like a symbiotic relationship.

2 nigella  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:13:38pm

What can you say about this?

3 Abu Al-Poopypants  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:14:00pm

Invisible Sky Wizard akbar!

4 patrickafir  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:14:29pm

It's sad to see Christianity in any way linked to the religion of peace.

5 Salem  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:14:32pm

Go ahead, ID fans, have at it.

6 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:14:55pm

Under every stone is a Saudi financier...

7 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:15:23pm

Interesting.

Doesn't TBN also have connections with Islamic groups?

I'll look for links.

8 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:17:19pm

Here are some:

[Link: www.apprising.org...]

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

9 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:17:29pm

re: #6 experiencedtraveller

Under every stone is a Saudi financier...

Probably not in this case:

Saudi funding also seems unlikely because Oktar's message, while basically Sunni Muslim, mixes in Shi'ite and Sufi elements that clash with the kingdom's austere Wahhabi school of Islam.

"The Saudis don't like that," said an Istanbul Islam expert who asked not to be named because he feared litigation by the Harun Yahya group if quoted criticizing it. He thought Oktar was mostly funded by a small group of affluent young Turks who make up the core group of his supporters.

10 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:18:22pm

He "awaits Christ?" I wonder how well that'll go over in Turkey and the surrounding areas?

11 ted  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:18:47pm

re: #9 Charles

Soros probably will pop up too.

12 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:19:12pm

Disparagement of science makes baby Jesus cry.

13 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:19:19pm

If I recall correctly, Harun Yahya is very critical of Jihadism.

14 ted  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:19:41pm

Dodo's of a feather...

15 The Other Les  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:20:17pm

re: #10 Wyatt Earp

He "awaits Christ?" I wonder how well that'll go over in Turkey and the surrounding areas?

It beats waiting for Godot.

16 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:20:25pm

re: #14 ted

Dodo's of a feather...

Cretins of a feather incest together

/just made that up, it's disgusting, but it fits

17 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:20:52pm

Re my comment at #13,

No, I think I was wrong about that.

18 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:22:25pm

re: #15 The Other Les

Or the Al Gorbot.

19 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:23:07pm

Re: Harun Yahya.

What I remembered was that he took stands against things that most Muslims support, and he is opposed by a great number of Muslims.

Here's an example of a stand he has taken against Nazism and anti-Semitism:

[Link: www.harunyahya.com...]

20 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:23:11pm

More on this freak: Adnan Oktar.

In September 1999 Adnan Oktar was arrested following multiple sex scandals and further allegations that was fully covered by the Turkish media. In that court case, Oktar was charged with rape, slander, libel, bribery, blackmail and creating an organization with the intent to commit a crime[8]. One complaintant, a fashion model named Ebru Simsek claimed she was blackmailed, and then slandered as a "prostitute" in fax messages sent to hundreds of different newspapers, TV channels, major business companies, foreign consulates and government offices for refusing to have sex with Adnan Oktar. The judicial process lasted over 2 years, during which most of the complainants' retracted their claims because of threats or bribes from SRF members. As a result most of the cases against Oktar and SRF members were dismissed, with only two member receiving jail sentences for 1 year each.

Amidst ambiguous circumstances all charges were dropped by that court only to be picked by another court 8 years later. On May 2008 Oktar and 17 other members of his organisation where sentenced to 3 years in prison[30]. Oktar intends to appeal these charges.[30]

According to the indictment of the prosecutor’s office, cited by the daily Cumhuriyet, Adnan Oktar and associates raped young women many of whom were under the age of 18 on camera and blackmailed them by threatening to release the sex tapes to their friends and family members. Many of these young women were then forced to to entice select young men from wealthy families with the promise sex in exchange for attending events organised by the BAV. The court heard how in turn these girls were formed into a group called of what they referred to as Odalisques and were ordered to videotape their sex sessions with these young men and deliver the tapes to Oktar.

21 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:24:05pm
The flood of free books prompted suspicion among baffled Western scientists and teachers that U.S. creationists or Saudi financiers might be helping finance the campaign.

He should have included his books as part of the Aramco curriculum for "cultural studies" classes. Nobody would have noticed.

22 Purple Prose  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:24:11pm

Islamists and Western irrationalists of all stripes make natural bedfellows. You see Islamists aligning themselves with the far Left, the far Right and now, perhaps, creationists. It's all about an assault on reason. Roll back the Enlightenment and let Karl or Adolf or Mohammed in. It's all shiite.

23 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:24:17pm

Knowledge has a long history of being feared by those who wish to impose their views on others in order to maintain their power.

24 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:24:55pm

re: #19 Pastorius

Re: Harun Yahya.

What I remembered was that he took stands against things that most Muslims support, and he is opposed by a great number of Muslims.

Here's an example of a stand he has taken against Nazism and anti-Semitism:

[Link: www.harunyahya.com...]

If you read that whole incoherent article, you'll discover that his definition of "antisemitism" is rather flexible.

25 shibumi  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:26:08pm

I'm pretty sure the Christ he's awaiting is very different from Jesus.

But I bet he's not going to mention that bit of Islamic theology to anyone.

26 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:26:43pm

re: #20 Charles

Religious perverts are disgusting hypocrites.

27 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:28:36pm

If I were Jihadi megabucks seeking to wedge Sharia into American law, I would certainly start by "greasing the wedge". This does not reflect upon the existing ID movement (which is already wrong and not at all science, yet certainly not Jihadi by any stretch), but it uses a more palatable ideology to drive the same legal mechanism.

So while I would not claim that ID folks are Jihadi, there most definitely a Jihadi threat hidden within ID.

Please note that I do not equate any of the terms herein with Creationism, which to me is theology, and threatens exactly nobody. Once it strays into ID however, then it is politics and pseudo-science.

28 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:28:40pm

Charles,

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your headline.

It appears you're taking this quote...

"American creationists I talk to basically envy Harun Yahya’s financial resources. If there were any fund flowing, it would be from Adnan Oktar to the creationists.”

... and trying to use it to insinuate that US creationist groups are in cahoots with radical Islam.

When the quote, of course, is simply -- and obviously -- belying the assertion that US creationists could possibly be funding this dude.

Help me out here.

29 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:28:46pm

He awaits Christ... means the real and only true Muslim Christ who will defeat the fake Christian Christ.

They call Christians, "children of the book" but still claim that we are deluded and following a false Christ.

30 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:28:49pm

re: #24 Charles

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I've been suffering major weirdness - first I had the eternal dotted circle, then I got dumped three threads back, then I was told I was not logged in, then I was accused of duplicate comments...I'm on Firefox 3, or whatever this latest version is titled.

Is LGF being strange, is the internet being strange, or should I bother my technical consultant, a.k.a., the Male of the Species?

31 profitsbeard  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:28:54pm

One of his useful idiot colleagues in the West is the "famous French physician" Maurice Bucaille who promotes the risible notion that the Koran is a fountain of advanced scientific thought, making this a two-pronged assault, aiming at both the gullible fundamentalists and the naive progressives.

One angle advances Allah as the source of ID, and the other pushes a parallel tactic co-opting "Science".

They try to get to you from each end of the conceptual spectrum.

All based on the egomaniacal drivel of an illiterate, plagiarizing pedophile warlord.

32 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:28:54pm

re: #10 Wyatt Earp

He "awaits Christ?" I wonder how well that'll go over in Turkey and the surrounding areas?

Last year, in the Lizard Lounge, we had a muslim from Turkey who went by the nic "Fuzuli". Fuz told me that Jesus would return to correct and implement shari'a law upon the Earth- so this makes perfect sense to me. I wish I had known all this last year in my battles with him- I would have asked him specifically if he was a follower of Harun Yahya, although at this point, I will lean towards this strong possibility that he was.

33 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:29:49pm

In many ways, I agree with Harun Yahya that Nazism was neo-Paganism.

34 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:29:50pm

Oh, goodie! Obfuscation has arrived!

35 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:30:15pm

re: #29 slokat

They call Christians, "children of the book"

I don't think they do that at all. I have never heard that phrase used outside of Saudi-funded PR efforts, or by anyone Muslim, Jihadist or no.

36 Wyatt Earp  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:30:20pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

Great, so being a Catholic may not count for squat now? And I said all of those rosaries for nothing?!

37 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:30:38pm

Charles, have you considered putting all of these ID threads together in one place on the left side, kinda' like the fauxtography threads?

38 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:31:18pm

#24 Charles,
Yes, as it is with many Muslims.

I haven't read a lot about Yahya, but he doesn't seem typical. As was noted, he combines Sufism, Sunni, and Shia ideas. So, he wouldn't be typical, I guess.

39 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:31:18pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

What's he up to today? Banned?

40 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:31:20pm

re: #36 Wyatt Earp

FWIW- I told him that when Jesus returned, he was going to be pissed.

41 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:31:24pm

the turkish rop'ers who are funding the u.s. creation groups think they will be able to roll right over them when they need to or bring them in line w/ their own idea of where christ fits in in the moslem scheme of things.

42 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:31:50pm

well *** I *** didn't have ANYTHING to do with this. Go ID! Well... not really.. I'm not an ID'er... but you know that. :)

43 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:32:04pm

re: #30 Dianna

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I've been suffering major weirdness - first I had the eternal dotted circle, then I got dumped three threads back, then I was told I was not logged in, then I was accused of duplicate comments...I'm on Firefox 3, or whatever this latest version is titled.

Is LGF being strange, is the internet being strange, or should I bother my technical consultant, a.k.a., the Male of the Species?

I've had these same problems today, off and on. Seems to be OK now.

44 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:32:09pm

re: #39 medaura18586

I don't believe so- I think he gave up on us because he came to realize he was either going to be ignored or he was unable to revert any of us.

45 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:32:12pm

re: #28 Cognito

Charles,

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your headline.

It appears you're taking this quote...

... and trying to use it to insinuate that US creationist groups are in cahoots with radical Islam.

When the quote, of course, is simply -- and obviously -- belying the assertion that US creationists could possibly be funding this dude.

Help me out here.

Read the links, please. US creationists ARE in cahoots with this creep. It's a fact.

46 MPH  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:32:13pm

[Link: www3.nationalgeographic.com...]

MtDNA, inherited down the maternal line, was used to discover the age of the famous 'mitochondrial Eve' in 1987. This work has since been extended to show unequivocally that the most recent common female ancestor of everyone alive today was an African woman who lived in the past 200,000 years. Paleontology provides corroborating evidence that our species originated on this continent approximately 200,000 years ago.
47 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:32:47pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

Last year, in the Lizard Lounge, we had a muslim from Turkey who went by the nic "Fuzuli". Fuz told me that Jesus would return to correct and implement shari'a law upon the Earth- so this makes perfect sense to me. I wish I had known all this last year in my battles with him- I would have asked him specifically if he was a follower of Harun Yahya, although at this point, I will lean towards this strong possibility that he was.

What happened to him? Is he still around?

48 sngnsgt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:32:55pm

Adnan Akbar?

49 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:33:01pm

re: #43 reine.de.tout

It's been a rough LGF day, but to Dianna- I've had issues with LGF and FF3, so I switched to Safari.

50 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:33:17pm

re: #38 Pastorius

In other words, he's a crank, no matter whose standards are being applied?

51 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:33:18pm

re: #27 MajorPribluda

If I were Jihadi megabucks seeking to wedge Sharia into American law, I would certainly start by "greasing the wedge". This does not reflect upon the existing ID movement (which is already wrong and not at all science, yet certainly not Jihadi by any stretch), but it uses a more palatable ideology to drive the same legal mechanism.

Paraphrasing an old guy who knew what he was about: They will hang us with our own stupidity.

52 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:33:42pm

re: #47 reine.de.tout

The last time I saw Fuzuli was on another blog- I believe it was either Yon or Totten.

53 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:00pm

re: #44 Sharmuta

I don't believe so- I think he gave up on us because he came to realize he was either going to be ignored or he was unable to revert any of us.

Huh? Who?

54 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:02pm

if i was a u.s. creationist, i wouldn't trust these assholes. they are moslems who have twisted christianity to fit their own perverse scenario.

55 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:12pm

re: #43 reine.de.tout

Well, I'm here...but, man, was I confused.

56 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:14pm

re: #45 Charles

Read the links, please. US creationists ARE in cahoots with this creep. It's a fact.

I'm asking: Are you saying that the quote you put in bold is somehow indicative that American creationists are funded by radical Islam?

57 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:23pm

re: #28 Cognito

When the quote, of course, is simply -- and obviously -- belying the assertion that US creationists could possibly be funding this dude.

In your rush to attack, you've completely misunderstood the post.

58 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:36pm

re: #42 unixrab

well *** I *** didn't have ANYTHING to do with this. Go ID! Well... not really.. I'm not an ID'er... but you know that. :)

glutton for punishment, are you?

59 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:34:57pm

Harun Yahya begins his discussion of anti-Semitism with the following trope (which is typical of Muslims when discussing anti-Semitism)

"This term is generally understood as meaning "anti Jewish," but its basic meaning is a "hatred of Semitic peoples". The Semitic peoples are basically made up of Arabs, Jews and a few other Middle Eastern ethnic groups. "

Technically true, but not in the spirit of the term "Anti-Semitism" as it is used, or as it was invented to be used.

60 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:35:07pm

re: #35 Pawn of the Oppressor

I don't think they do that at all. I have never heard that phrase used outside of Saudi-funded PR efforts, or by anyone Muslim, Jihadist or no.

Ok , I have - seen this many times, in writings about why they will impose taxes & different rules for jews/christians that want to remain in their faiths. (v/s kill)

Will look for links

61 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:35:16pm

re: #56 Cognito

I'm asking: Are you saying that the quote you put in bold is somehow indicative that American creationists are funded by radical Islam?

"Somehow indicative?" Where did I write that?

You're getting ridiculous.

62 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:35:53pm

re: #57 Charles

In your rush to attack, you've completely misunderstood the post.

No attack here. Like I said orginally, maybe I'm misunderstanding it.

And that's why I asked you to help me out.

What is the bold quote meant to convey?

63 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:36:08pm

re: #52 Sharmuta

He may have been the one who sent me a creepy Islamist email on my LGF address, urging me to convert. It freaked me out and I pulled down my avatar since.

64 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:36:19pm

re: #58 reine.de.tout

I think we better put this in the on deck circle.

65 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:36:51pm

re: #62 Cognito

No attack here. Like I said orginally, maybe I'm misunderstanding it.

And that's why I asked you to help me out.

What is the bold quote meant to convey?

It's obvious, isn't it? The person quoted is raising the possibility that Harun Yahya is funding US creationists.

66 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:36:55pm

re: #49 Sharmuta

Ta!

I think, anyway. The thing was, I was on earlier, and even posted on comment before the weirdness - a reply to realwest. It was when I tried to reply to OR later on the thread that everything came to a strange and disturbing halt.

67 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:37:48pm

re: #20 Charles

More on this freak: Adnan Oktar.

Sal: Charles, this reminds me of the Flirty Fishing tactic used by the Children of God:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

68 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:37:49pm

re: #54 nyc redneck

You're assuming that they see beyond their agenda, and some of them don't.

69 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:38:01pm

re: #30 Dianna

Close your browser and dump your cache. Also, there have been some innernets glitches tonight, in which you might be caught up.

Are you using Zone Alarm, by any chance? If so, I might have a fix for you.

And by the way, I meant to tell you last night how much I admire your posts. You're a classy lady, particularly exemplified by your post to Cognito last night, which I dubbed Dianna's Cognito Hammer to your regret.

70 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:38:18pm

#50 Dianna,

In other words, he's a crank, no matter whose standards are being applied?

Heh.

I guess that's true.

But, I like his definition of Nazism as neo-Paganism.

The reason I like that definition is because it points out why people like GOV and others in their group (who claim to be of the Judeo-Christian tradition) ought to reject groups like the Vlaams Belang.

VB, BNP, and other ethnic nationalist groups hold blood to be more important than the character developed based upon adherence to law.

Our Western tradition is built on ideas communicated in words.

It is not built on blood.

Paganism is built on blood.

71 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:38:39pm

Boss has a tough gig.

72 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:38:40pm

re: #56 Cognito

Stop!

Go read the links before you start this!

73 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:38:50pm

re: #64 Sharmuta

I think we better put this in the on deck circle.

yes, and also this and this

74 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:39:10pm

re: #54 nyc redneck

if i was a u.s. creationist, i wouldn't trust these assholes. they are moslems who have twisted christianity to fit their own perverse scenario.

But US creationists DO trust Harun Yahya. They participate in his conferences in Turkey.

75 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:39:41pm

re: #33 Pastorius

In many ways, I agree with Harun Yahya that Nazism was neo-Paganism.

Sal: You could just as easily describe it as neo-lutheranism.

76 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:39:45pm

re: #73 reine.de.tout

LMAO!

77 jorline  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:39:53pm

re: #20 Charles

This guy is smegma.

78 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:40:06pm

re: #35 Pawn of the Oppressor

I don't think they do that at all. I have never heard that phrase used outside of Saudi-funded PR efforts, or by anyone Muslim, Jihadist or no.

"People of the Book" is indeed a common term, with a mixed history. It's a way of sorting the Hindu, (historical) Egyptian, Buddhist and various other polytheists from those more closely related to Islam, the monotheists. It both denigrates and preserves the status of those who wrote and lived by the volumes which Islam claims to have perfected.

/ptui.

79 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:40:31pm

re: #72 Dianna

Stop!

Go read the links before you start this!

But reading links is hard!

80 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:40:32pm

re: #58 reine.de.tout

glutton for punishment, are you?

dude.. i've been gettin' punished on the [Link: www...] it was called the [Link: www...] :)

81 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:40:36pm

re: #68 Dianna

You're assuming that they see beyond their agenda, and some of them don't.

i would say they don't understand islam.

82 realwest  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:40:43pm

re: #48 sngnsgt Don't know if you saw my reply to you re: working from home while on disability on the prior thread. I think it's number 430 or 431.

83 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:41:01pm

re: #59 Pastorius

Logical fallacy by ambiguity.

"The church would like to encourage theism.
Theism is a medical condition resulting from the excessive consumption of tea. Therefore: The church ought to distribute tea more freely."

I am accused of being anti-Semitic. But semites are made of Arabs, and I have no beef with Arabs, so see? I'm not an anti-semite. (Joo hating be damned)

It's the most stupid way out of the accusation I have ever heard.

84 Charles  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:41:30pm

I'm sure you're going to keep at this, Cognito, but you'll have to excuse me if I ignore you. I've had enough of your deliberately contrarian BS for one day.

85 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:41:33pm

re: #62 Cognito

Back up and read the links.

What are you doing, trying to get banned?

86 BLBfootballs  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:41:59pm

Very interesting. One can't help but notice that evolution is generally opposed by religious fundamentalists of every stripe.

87 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:42:04pm

re: #73 reine.de.tout

yes, and also this and this

all three of those minister to my soul! awesome. It's like what I go through sometimes here sometimes.

88 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:42:15pm

re: #65 Charles

It's obvious, isn't it? The person quoted is raising the possibility that Harun Yahya is funding US creationists.

I don't believe he is. At all.

I think he's simply saying the US creationists are relatively impoverished, compared to Yahya. It's a way of saying, "This dude's got serious dough."

The next step being, of course, that he is funded by the Saudis. Which the writer immediately addresses:


Edis doubted the rumors of funds from U.S. creationists, saying: "American creationists I talk to basically envy Harun Yahya's financial resources. If there were any fund flowing, it would be from Adnan Oktar to the creationists."

Saudi funding also seems unlikely because Oktar's message, while basically Sunni Muslim, mixes in Shi'ite and Sufi elements that clash with the kingdom's austere Wahhabi school of Islam.

The upshot, here, is that no one knows where this fellow gets his mad cash. Not that he's actually funding American creationists.

Am I totally misreading this?

89 Seerak  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:42:35pm

Makes perfect sense to me.

The Islamists have a dread fear that the force that civilized Christianity -- the secular Enlightenment -- might do the same to Islam. They don't want any of that pansy individual rights stuff getting in the way of their centuries-old holy wars. It therefore serves their ultimate goals to assist Christianity in becoming feral once more, as it was in the good ol' Dark and Middle Ages.

I would hope that Christianity can reject this movement, as Pope Benedict seems to be doing -- but when the mainstream consists of men like Roger Kimball, openly calling for us to refrain from thinking too deeply, one wonders where the minds that forced the religions to grow up and get along will come from this time.

90 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:43:06pm

re: #74 Charles

But US creationists DO trust Harun Yahya. They participate in his conferences in Turkey.

i would say they don't understand what they are up against.
they don't understand islam.

91 blue_like_jazz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:43:19pm

re: #88 Cognito


no

92 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:43:52pm

re: #81 nyc redneck

i would say they don't understand islam.

I think the US creationists think that the enemy of their enemy is their friend- the enemy in this case being evolution.

93 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:44:06pm

re: #60 slokat

Koran reference to Children of Israel being in the Book - http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?ty pe=DIV0&byte=429259

in partial answer to up the thread...

94 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:44:20pm

re: #70 Pastorius

Not all paganism! Or, not just paganism.

I will - to my deep embarrassment, but Joss Whedon got this right - quote Spike in season 5 of Buffy:

In the end, it all comes down to blood.

95 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:44:53pm

re: #92 Sharmuta

I think the US creationists think that the enemy of their enemy is their friend- the enemy in this case being evolution.

who said that... "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

96 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:45:28pm

Atlas of Creation --just lovely.

97 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:45:36pm

I'm walking dogs. I'll be back, if only to say goodnight.

98 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:45:54pm

re: #89 Seerak

Makes perfect sense to me.

The Islamists have a dread fear that the force that civilized Christianity -- the secular Enlightenment -- might do the same to Islam. They don't want any of that pansy individual rights stuff getting in the way of their centuries-old holy wars. It therefore serves their ultimate goals to assist Christianity in becoming feral once more, as it was in the good ol' Dark and Middle Ages.

I would hope that Christianity can reject this movement, as Pope Benedict seems to be doing -- but when the mainstream consists of men like Roger Kimball, openly calling for us to refrain from thinking too deeply, one wonders where the minds that forced the religions to grow up and get along will come from this time.

TL;DR. And poorly written.

99 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:46:25pm

re: #92 Sharmuta

I think the US creationists think that the enemy of their enemy is their friend- the enemy in this case being evolution.

Nice.

100 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:46:56pm

re: #85 Dianna

Back up and read the links.

What are you doing, trying to get banned?

No, I just read this a totally different way. Apparently I'm the only one. (Although I'll inevitably get emails saying, "Right on, Cog! We were right behind you! Just... quietly!")

Since the correct reading seems obvious to everyone else, I'll just shut my trap.

101 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:47:07pm

re: #92 Sharmuta

I think the US creationists think that the enemy of their enemy is their friend- the enemy in this case being evolution.

yes, and that is the sad part. because they would be wrong.

102 locke/demosthenes  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:49:26pm

I work in a biology lab that got one of the free Atlas of Creations in the mail. It's a fancy book with a high-quality cover and plenty of colorful pages. Probably costs a fortune to print these. We keep it around as a conversation piece for a good laugh.

103 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:49:27pm

re: #88 Cognito


Cognito read the link Charles kindly posted. Here's a list of speakers at on of Harun Yahya's conferences.
Professor Michael P. Girouard: a professor of biology at Southern Louisiana University.

Dr Edward Boudreaux: a professor of chemistry at the University of New Orleans.

Professor Carl Fliermans: A widely-known scientist in the USA and a microbiology professor at Indiana University.

Professor Edip Keha: A professor of biochemistry.

Professor David Menton: A professor of anatomy at Washington University.

Professor Duane Gish: Famous evolutionist expert.

ICR President Professor John Morris: the president of the Institute for Creation Research and a famous geologist.

Note not one of them is named Mohamed.

104 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:49:29pm

re: #4 patrickafir

It's sad to see Christianity in any way linked to the religion of peace.

It's that "the enemy of my enemy" crap. With a little Taqiyya thrown in.

Yes, there really are people who think it's not only acceptable but admirable to lie their asses off in order to promote what they believe is a Christian agenda.

105 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:49:38pm

re: #6 experiencedtraveller

Under every stone is a Saudi financier...

got salt? %-)

/sovereign remedy for slimy things

106 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:49:49pm

re: #101 nyc redneck

yes, and that is the sad part. because they would be wrong.

I like to call this the Alien vs Predator problem. I have an enemy, the Alien. his enemy is the Predator. Either one would gladly have me for lunch.

107 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:49:54pm

re: #85 Dianna

Back up and read the links.

What are you doing, trying to get banned?

*fumbles drink*

*gets up*

*trips over coffee table*

Are you going to take that Cognito? I say, 'to hell with Charles' link.' Do and say whatever contrarian bullshit you want here. Go ahead and get yourself banned. That'll show her.

Now, go on out there and stand up for yourself. Get yourself banned. Show us all.

Heh.

108 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:51:26pm

re: #107 Noam Sayin'

*fumbles drink*

*gets up*

*trips over coffee table*

Are you going to take that Cognito? I say, 'to hell with Charles' link.' Do and say whatever contrarian bullshit you want here. Go ahead and get yourself banned. That'll show her.

Now, go on out there and stand up for yourself. Get yourself banned. Show us all.

Heh.

Careful. Cognito might just shoot poor Spider Dianna.

109 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:52:10pm
110 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:53:59pm

re: #103 Neo Con since 9-11

Professor Duane Gish: Famous evolutionist expert.


Shouldn't that read creationist?

111 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:54:16pm

re: #108 MajorPribluda

Careful. Cognito might just shoot poor Spider Dianna.

Dianna can handle Cognito.

I just knew I favorited that for a good cause.

112 islamofauxware  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:54:50pm

On 8/31/08 for those who subscribe to EWTN, Woody Cozad will be performing his "Deconstruction of the Infallibility of the Theory of Evolution" - to the extent that you do not take yourself too seriously, even the pedestrian Darwinist might enjoy this as it sheds comedic light on the entire topic.

113 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:55:17pm

re: #105 redc1c4

evening red ...had to try to get banned on the last thread

114 Abu Al-Poopypants  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:55:32pm

re: #49 Sharmuta

It's been a rough LGF day, but to Dianna- I've had issues with LGF and FF3, so I switched to Safari.

This site's been hard to read the last few months even with FF 2.x. I keep getting timeouts and messages about unresponsive scripts.

115 Carridine  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:55:52pm

re: #88 Cognito

Am I totally misreading this?

Yes.

116 Uncle Pavian  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:56:12pm

How did al-Reuters get to be so credible all of a sudden?

117 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:56:31pm

re: #70 Pastorius

#50 Dianna,

In other words, he's a crank, no matter whose standards are being applied?

Heh.

I guess that's true.

But, I like his definition of Nazism as neo-Paganism.

The reason I like that definition is because it points out why people like GOV and others in their group (who claim to be of the Judeo-Christian tradition) ought to reject groups like the Vlaams Belang.

VB, BNP, and other ethnic nationalist groups hold blood to be more important than the character developed based upon adherence to law.

Our Western tradition is built on ideas communicated in words.

It is not built on blood.

Paganism is built on blood.

Sal: Actually, this is untrue. The Druids included Goths, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Frisians, Gauls, Celts, and Picts, among many others. What bound these disparate tribes together was a common faith and social order. Caesar actually described them:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

118 redc1c4[deleted]  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:56:40pm
119 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:56:56pm

re: #85 Dianna

Back up and read the links.

What are you doing, trying to get banned?

Boy, that's about as subtle as the endless lower case "g" 's we've endured for two weeks.

120 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:57:21pm

re: #110 Wendya

Shouldn't that read creationist?

If he were aiming for accuracy. But as an American, the first amendment gives him the right put what ever he wants on his business card. Mine says "Bra Inspector".

121 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:57:42pm

re: #114 Abu Al-Poopypants

This site's been hard to read the last few months even with FF 2.x. I keep getting timeouts and messages about unresponsive scripts.

are you with ATT/SBC Global?

/same issues

122 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:57:43pm

re: #114 Abu Al-Poopypants

Switch to Safari.

123 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:58:43pm

good night, all, it's been an interesting day. It's a privilege to be here among you, and thank you, Charles, for this site. With so many smart people and good minds, I learn something new every day. I don't know how you have time to keep up with this place and also have time to make a living.

Before I leave entirely, let me put this here. I saw this headline on the side to my right, under "Noblesse Oblige" (Thanos' site, I believe), and it's very interesting, for anyone wanting to see it.
Amish Save Children Through Genetic Science

124 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:59:31pm

re: #120 Neo Con since 9-11

If he were aiming for accuracy. But as an American, the first amendment gives him the right put what ever he wants on his business card. Mine says "Bra Inspector".

thereby exercising your 1st amendment right to screw up....

mine says "breast exam technician". why mess with the covers when you can get to the contents?

/white smoke

125 Gavriel  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 9:59:34pm

re: #107 Noam Sayin'
Laughing out loud. Noam, that was great.

I agree, cognito manages to sound (and be) contrary in accusing Charles of implying something as opposed to realizing that Charles is quoting the article.

On the other hand, cognito could easily be right...
Oops, I just re-read the article to show how cognito could be right, but it turns out I was mistaken. Sorry cognito, too bad.

126 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:00:09pm

#75 Sal,

Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, true.

But, Hitler was no friend of the Christian church. According to the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, one of the first groups Hitler went after, when he rose to power, was christian Pastors who would not swear allegiance to him above the Bible and their church.

127 bosforus  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:00:26pm

As long as we're on the subject...
The link is about, among other things, planarians being Pavlovianly taught to react to light, then feeding those planarians to others that weren't involved in the test yet reacting in the same way.

The only words needed to complete the first sentence are "Planarians hold the..."
[Link: books.google.com...]
Can't stick around to discuss, wish I could.

128 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:00:31pm

re: #120 Neo Con since 9-11

actually, i think that you have to have the proper credentials for some things on a business card: CPA, Attorney, Insurance and Real Estate Agent, and Private Detective --are the ones I can think of.

You are free to use "Bra Inspector" as far as I know.

129 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:00:32pm

Charles, I want to thank you for your series of posts exposing the ID crowd.

ID, creationism, etc., has NO place in anything that is funded by tax dollars in America, and If you truly believe in what America stands for, you would agree with me.

130 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:00:54pm

re: #113 Mel Lono

evening red ...had to try to get banned on the last thread

wtf were you thinking?

(should i go read or let it lie? %-)

131 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:01:13pm
Well-illustrated and free of theological jargon, they preach that Islam is the one true faith and Darwinism, by undermining religious belief, has led to the discord, atheism, terrorism and extreme political ideologies plaguing the world

So now Darwin is to blame for terrorism and al-qaeda? It's not The Origin of Species that's to blame for that, it's the koran.

132 Pastorius  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:01:31pm

#117 Sal

The Druids included Goths, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Frisians, Gauls, Celts, and Picts, among many others. What bound these disparate tribes together was a common faith and social order. Caesar actually described them:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I'll have to read about that.

133 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:01:31pm

re: #130 redc1c4

wtf were you thinking?

(should i go read or let it lie? %-)

its worth the trip

134 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:02:38pm

re: #69 Noam Sayin'

I've got to upding you for being so very nice to me. Thank you!

135 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:02:43pm

good night good folks,
i can't keep my eyes open any longer.

136 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:02:52pm

re: #95 unixrab

who said that... "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

137 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:03:16pm

re: #119 ornery elephant

What did I ever do to you?

138 Abu Al-Poopypants  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:03:17pm

re: #122 Sharmuta

Switch to Safari.

I suppose I could, but I hate Apple crap and this is the only site that causes me that kind of trouble.

139 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:03:55pm

re: #118 redc1c4

can i just shoot Cognito before he causes a spilled drink and pisses off our host any more than he already has?

i'll take the John Wayne defense for $1000: "What is 'He needed shootin.'?"

/zero tolerance for party fouls

Well, don't shoot Cogs. The furry little troll is actually handy in a pinch, so long as the MSM isn't part of the argument. I actually found myself agreeing with him and even up-dinging him! Nobody was more surprised than I.

I still think that what he does is a very intelligent form of soft-trolling, where instead of swear words, he uses "What. Me? Look I'm sorry, if, but, you see, ..."

I would have booted him long ago. Now I'd say he's part of the landscape.


And now I need that drink, red. I just defended Cogs AGAIN.

140 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:04:37pm

re: #126 Pastorius

#75 Sal,

Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, true.

But, Hitler was no friend of the Christian church. According to the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, one of the first groups Hitler went after, when he rose to power, was christian Pastors who would not swear allegiance to him above the Bible and their church.

and the bomb under the table that almost killed H--- was a plan by Bonhoeffer (a Lutheran Pastor) & his brother-in-law + other friends

141 Abu Al-Poopypants  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:04:39pm

re: #121 redc1c4

are you with ATT/SBC Global?

/same issues

No, I'm on Verizon Fios, but I was having the same trouble under my previous ISP.

142 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:04:46pm

re: #129 venjanz

Charles, I want to thank you for your series of posts exposing the ID crowd.

ID, creationism, etc., has NO place in anything that is funded by tax dollars in America, and If you truly believe in what America stands for, you would agree with me.

AHHHHH my tax dollars are already funding something that says I'm a liar, my church is lying, my ... my.. GRAMGRAM is lying... my little daughter has to listen to the evolutionist drivel without the slightest mentioning that "oh yes.. .92% of Americans believe in a a God or Higher Power" yeah.. leave that 36,000 strong census out. barf.

143 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:04:57pm

re: #123 reine.de.tout

Thanks for that link! I like the "never say never" quote.

144 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:05:11pm

re: #134 Dianna

You're a class act, and I meant to tell you that a long time ago. That well-mannered post last night reminded me that I've been remiss.

145 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:05:27pm

re: #100 Cognito

OK, I don't know what you're after, there. Maybe I'm too far into this, and have noticed too many connections, and therefore am not seeing alternatives.

If people agree with your reading they truly do need to speak up and tell the rest of us what we're missing.

146 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:06:07pm

re: #136 Salamantis

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

ah.. ok.. thanks!

147 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:06:15pm

since we are winding 'round a variety of subjects, and it's still early, i'd like to point out that Miguel (of LNDT fame) checked in late last night after a week or so of absence from the frivolity & fruitcup that LNL's revel in during the wee hours.....

it seems he had a "minor" stroke, and is coming along. i'd ask whomever it is that takes care of the Lizard Prayer List to add him & his loved ones to the intentions list, as appropriate, and ask that folks pass along the word as questions are asked.

148 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:07:09pm

re: #108 MajorPribluda

I'm innocent!

149 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:07:33pm

re: #133 Mel Lono

its worth the trip

got a pointer to where i should start?

/don't want to impact my drinking efficiency %-)

150 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:07:59pm

re: #138 Abu Al-Poopypants

I suppose I could, but I hate Apple crap and this is the only site that causes me that kind of trouble.

I happen to know that this site looks JUST FINE on a Mac using Safari. Yet I'm not on a Mac, and I'm not using Safari. G'head. Ask me how I know!

151 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:04pm

"Hitler was a Christian"
"Hitler was a Pagan"

etc.

Hitler is a screen where people project their bogeymen, I think.

From what I can tell, he had no religion. Religion (and "culture" in general) for him was just another mechanism of control. He invoked the mythical pagan past of Germanic peoples because it was a line of bullshit that worked. I don't believe any of that stuff about him being an occultist, or a closet Catholic, or what have you. Religions all feature cosmic accountability, and if there was one thing that ran absolutely contrary to Hitler's mental flow, it was the thought of being beholden to something outside himself.

152 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:07pm
Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, true.

I can debate that, but it hinges on things that we no longer take for granted.... and he hated the current (for his time) Pope more, than almost any other thing in his world.

153 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:13pm

re: #147 redc1c4

since we are winding 'round a variety of subjects, and it's still early, i'd like to point out that Miguel (of LNDT fame) checked in late last night after a week or so of absence from the frivolity & fruitcup that LNL's revel in during the wee hours.....

it seems he had a "minor" stroke, and is coming along. i'd ask whomever it is that takes care of the Lizard Prayer List to add him & his loved ones to the intentions list, as appropriate, and ask that folks pass along the word as questions are asked.

There's a Lizard Prayer List?

154 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:13pm

Well this is not good. Now I know how those pacifist peaceful Muslims feel when Islamists like the ones at CAIR and other Muslim groups promote their extremist agenda. Just as the Pope does not speak for Christians, the people at the Discovery Institute also does not speak for ID proponents. Many of us who believe in the Genesis account don't want it taught in science classes.

155 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:30pm

re: #147 redc1c4

Miquel had a stroke --oh my!

Prayers to Miquel!

156 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:43pm

re: #116 Uncle Pavian

How did al-Reuters get to be so credible all of a sudden?

Try googling Harun Yahya.

157 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:08:52pm

re: #10 Wyatt Earp

He "awaits Christ?" I wonder how well that'll go over in Turkey and the surrounding areas?

It is my, admittedly limited, understanding that muslim doctrine states that Jesus will return hand in hand with some other individual revered in islamic text.

158 freetoken  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:09:01pm

re: #147 redc1c4

Wow, that is some news. Hope he can recover completely.

159 sngnsgt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:09:17pm

re: #82 realwest

Don't know if you saw my reply to you re: working from home while on disability on the prior thread. I think it's number 430 or 431.

Got it, thanks. Check your e-mail. :-)

160 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:09:19pm

re: #129 venjanz

Charles, I want to thank you for your series of posts exposing the ID crowd.

ID, creationism, etc., has NO place in anything that is funded by tax dollars in America, and If you truly believe in what America stands for, you would agree with me.

How are you with Dung Mary, and Piss Christ?

161 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:09:19pm

re: #151 Pawn of the Oppressor

Hitler was a sociopath.

162 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:10:26pm

re: #142 unixrab

AHHHHH my tax dollars are already funding something that says I'm a liar, my church is lying, my ... my.. GRAMGRAM is lying... my little daughter has to listen to the evolutionist drivel without the slightest mentioning that "oh yes.. .92% of Americans believe in a a God or Higher Power" yeah.. leave that 36,000 strong census out. barf.

no one intelligent ever said you can't believe in G*d and evolution at the same time........

/no accounting for whack j*bs. %-)

163 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:10:33pm

I don't often agree with Cognito & he takes liberties that are not at all polite, but he is not a Troll.

I get tired of seeing that reference...

164 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:10:44pm

re: #157 Slumbering Behemoth

It is my, admittedly limited, understanding that muslim doctrine states that Jesus will return hand in hand with some other individual revered in islamic text.

Salman Rushdie, heh!

165 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:10:51pm

re: #147 redc1c4

since we are winding 'round a variety of subjects, and it's still early, i'd like to point out that Miguel (of LNDT fame) checked in late last night after a week or so of absence from the frivolity & fruitcup that LNL's revel in during the wee hours.....

it seems he had a "minor" stroke, and is coming along. i'd ask whomever it is that takes care of the Lizard Prayer List to add him & his loved ones to the intentions list, as appropriate, and ask that folks pass along the word as questions are asked.

Done. Amen

166 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:11:15pm

re: #142 unixrab

AHHHHH my tax dollars are already funding something that says I'm a liar, my church is lying, my ... my.. GRAMGRAM is lying... my little daughter has to listen to the evolutionist drivel without the slightest mentioning that "oh yes.. .92% of Americans believe in a a God or Higher Power" yeah.. leave that 36,000 strong census out. barf.

What amuses me is when people who enjoy, use, and in all ways benefit from science all day long (including at this very moment when they post on LGF) turn around and call one particular bit of science "drivel" because...

Well, I really don't know why. I guess that's why I find it funny, because if I didn't laugh, I'd cry.

If you think science is bullshit, then shut off your computer, throw out your phone, turn off your electricity, walk everywhere you go, and sell everything you own that isn't made of something synthetic.

167 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:11:31pm

re: #132 Pastorius

Caesar himself is worth reading.

Also read Pigott.

168 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:11:32pm

re: #157 Slumbering Behemoth

It is my, admittedly limited, understanding that muslim doctrine states that Jesus will return hand in hand with some other individual revered in islamic text.

Indeed. From the article itself:

Oktar said Koran verses and sayings of the Prophet Mohammed about the end of the world revealed Jesus would return soon as a Muslim to help Islam's savior, the Mahdi, defeat the Dajjal or Islamic Anti-Christ and establish Islam around the world.

"Our biggest project right now is to lay the grounds for the coming of Jesus Christ," he said. "We understand this is going to be in the next 20 to 25 years."

169 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:12:05pm

re: #147 redc1c4

thanks for the update Red - I missed that

170 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:12:14pm

re: #162 redc1c4

no one intelligent ever said you can't believe in G*d and evolution at the same time........

/no accounting for whack j*bs. %-)

Yeah... my Bible did... said that God hand made us from dust and breathed into us life... a soul... that animals don't have...

171 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:12:30pm

re: #126 Pastorius

#75 Sal,

Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, true.

But, Hitler was no friend of the Christian church. According to the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, one of the first groups Hitler went after, when he rose to power, was christian Pastors who would not swear allegiance to him above the Bible and their church.

You are in error here; tragic error.

- 95% of Hitler's Germans declared themselves officially as Christian.
- During the first years of Hitler's rule, 95 - 98% of this same population supported Nazi policies through regular referendum.
- Hitler never closed a church.
- Hitler banned pagans from school boards and banished pagan literature from the military.
- Hitler had to order some churches to remove his picture from their altars.
- The Hitler Youth had youth pastors and over 100 Hitler Youth camps had Bible teaching.
- The Gestapo raised funds for African missions.

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

172 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:12:50pm

re: #142 unixrab

Are you drunk, Uni? that reply was... bizarre.

173 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:12:53pm

re: #163 slokat

Cog wants to do nothing but take the contrarian position on whatever it is Charles posts. In that, he reminds me of nodrog.

174 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:12:55pm

re: #160 MajorPribluda

How are you with Dung Mary, and Piss Christ?

Strawman, No one here has defended either of those two taxpayer funded "exhibits".

175 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:13:00pm

re: #168 Sharmuta

I think a lot of islamawhackos might be suprised by what Jesus has to say about paradise.

176 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:13:21pm

re: #166 Pawn of the Oppressor

What amuses me is when people who enjoy, use, and in all ways benefit from science all day long (including at this very moment when they post on LGF) turn around and call one particular bit of science "drivel" because...

Well, I really don't know why. I guess that's why I find it funny, because if I didn't laugh, I'd cry.

If you think science is bullshit, then shut off your computer, throw out your phone, turn off your electricity, walk everywhere you go, and sell everything you own that isn't made of something synthetic.

I love science.

177 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:13:42pm

re: #142 unixrab

So?

Belief in a higher power doesn't necessitate belief in a flat earth, or a young earth, or ID.

Get a grip.

178 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:13:56pm

re: #147 redc1c4

since we are winding 'round a variety of subjects, and it's still early, i'd like to point out that Miguel (of LNDT fame) checked in late last night after a week or so of absence from the frivolity & fruitcup that LNL's revel in during the wee hours.....

it seems he had a "minor" stroke, and is coming along. i'd ask whomever it is that takes care of the Lizard Prayer List to add him & his loved ones to the intentions list, as appropriate, and ask that folks pass along the word as questions are asked.

Is he OK? What's his prognosis?

Miguel is my favorite Mexican.

(Well, him and the guy at a Texaco in Arlington who makes really great tacos fresh on the grill.)

179 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:14:28pm

re: #172 venjanz

Are you drunk, Uni? that reply was... bizarre.

why bizzare? not following.

180 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:14:33pm

re: #167 Dianna

Caesar himself is worth reading.

Also read Pigott.

Although by now, his tattoos must surely be fading.

181 Syrah  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:14:39pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

Last year, in the Lizard Lounge, we had a muslim from Turkey who went by the nic "Fuzuli". Fuz told me that Jesus would return to correct and implement shari'a law upon the Earth- so this makes perfect sense to me. I wish I had known all this last year in my battles with him- I would have asked him specifically if he was a follower of Harun Yahya, although at this point, I will lean towards this strong possibility that he was.

I have posted this before. I hope that I am not being too redundant in posting it again but it seems to dovetail with your comment here.

Will Islam Be Our Future?
A Study of Biblical and Islamic Eschatology

182 Abu Al-Poopypants  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:15:16pm

re: #150 MajorPribluda

I happen to know that this site looks JUST FINE on a Mac using Safari. Yet I'm not on a Mac, and I'm not using Safari. G'head. Ask me how I know!

Looks just fine on a PC using Firefox, but loads very slowly and keeps complaining about unresponsive scripts.

183 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:15:36pm

re: #140 slokat

and the bomb under the table that almost killed H--- was a plan by Bonhoeffer (a Lutheran Pastor) & his brother-in-law + other friends

Sal: and Martin Niemoller, who wrote the famous poem "First they came..." was originally one of Hitler's supporters.

184 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:15:49pm

re: #153 unixrab

Yes, and you're rude.

185 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:16:16pm

re: #177 Dianna

So?

Belief in a higher power doesn't necessitate belief in a flat earth, or a young earth, or ID.

Get a grip.

I don't believe in any of those things. .. well except an Almighty Higher power. (omniscient, omnipresent too)

186 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:16:43pm

re: #166 Pawn of the Oppressor

What amuses me is when people who enjoy, use, and in all ways benefit from science all day long (including at this very moment when they post on LGF) turn around and call one particular bit of science "drivel" because...

Well, I really don't know why. I guess that's why I find it funny, because if I didn't laugh, I'd cry.

If you think science is bullshit, then shut off your computer, throw out your phone, turn off your electricity, walk everywhere you go, and sell everything you own that isn't made of something synthetic.

I think an ID believer who accepts most or all of science minus the macro evolution part in no way means that they are unappreciative of science in general. I don't believe I have heard of any ID proponent said science is BS. It's the macro evolution that they have a problem with, not all of science.

187 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:17:13pm

re: #179 unixrab

I rest my case. 1st Amendment FTW!

188 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:17:14pm

re: #184 Dianna

Yes, and you're rude.

ah...well I want to be aware of it.. and on it if possible... sheeesh... from the other threads I wasn't sure such a thing existed.. not trying to be RUDE.

189 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:17:53pm

Anyone wanting to discuss anything with "unixrab" might want to check his/her posting history first.

Oh- and you'll most likely need this too.

190 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:18:05pm

re: #181 Syrah

I have posted this before. I hope that I am not being too redundant in posting it again but it seems to dovetail with your comment here.

Will Islam Be Our Future?
A Study of Biblical and Islamic Eschatology

That one just got to the pile/ tbd

191 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:18:12pm

re: #160 MajorPribluda

I don't know about him, but I was annoyed that either of them received public money.

Of course, I don't think artists should receive government checks except for purchased art - and I don't mean commissioned!

192 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:18:20pm

re: #189 Sharmuta

Anyone wanting to discuss anything with "unixrab" might want to check his/her posting history first.

Oh- and you'll most likely need this too.

and that's for dang sure thanx Sharmuta!

193 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:18:26pm

re: #153 unixrab

There's a Lizard Prayer List?

i have seen, on occasion when i get to the threads early enough in the night, that someone, i've forgotten who, posts a list of all those Lizards who have issues for which intercession is asked, by name, and with a specific intent that is to be addressed. it's there, somewhere.

having given up being Catholic for Lent one year, i'm not the most religious of Lizards, but i mock no one's heart felt and honestly practiced religious beliefs. (drawing the line @ cutting off my head, etc)
having been raised in the church, i recognize the importance it has to many, and the power, from whatever source it can grant.

i know Miguel will be comforted by the knowledge that his friends around the world are praying for him, each in their own way, and that he will benefit from this.

he's a good guy, from all i've seen, and i figure it's the least i can do for him.

194 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:18:44pm

re: #188 unixrab

ah...well I want to be aware of it.. and on it if possible... sheeesh... from the other threads I wasn't sure such a thing existed.. not trying to be RUDE.

Yeah- nothing like pushing your idea of Christianity onto the children of other people to give anyone the idea of rudeness.

195 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:19:46pm

re: #171 Salamantis

Hitler set up a "State" church that most / many (you choose) pastors/churches refused to be a part of...

His claims were as accurate in these matters as most of his other claims...

196 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:19:58pm

re: #192 unixrab

and that's for dang sure thanx Sharmuta!

I didn't do that to help you. I did it to help my fellow Lizards- many of whom would reject your notions if they take the time to look into them.

197 gman  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:20:04pm

It looks like "Atlas" is the first book in a seven part series

Since 2006 copies of a substantial, glossy and smartly packaged book called Atlas of Creation, credited to Harun Yahya, had been arriving at schools and universities across Europe. In Spain, France, Switzerland and Denmark clear evidence of the growing resources and confidence of European Muslim creationism was thudding on to the mat. The book is the first of a projected seven-part series, and parts two and three have already begun arriving at educational institutes Europe-wide..

Oktar has some serious resources

198 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:20:36pm

re: #193 redc1c4

i have seen, on occasion when i get to the threads early enough in the night, that someone, i've forgotten who, posts a list of all those Lizards who have issues for which intercession is asked, by name, and with a specific intent that is to be addressed. it's there, somewhere.

having given up being Catholic for Lent one year, i'm not the most religious of Lizards, but i mock no one's heart felt and honestly practiced religious beliefs. (drawing the line @ cutting off my head, etc)
having been raised in the church, i recognize the importance it has to many, and the power, from whatever source it can grant.

i know Miguel will be comforted by the knowledge that his friends around the world are praying for him, each in their own way, and that he will benefit from this.

he's a good guy, from all i've seen, and i figure it's the least i can do for him.

well if there's a list... I would like to add my name. so .... that's all.

199 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:20:48pm

This isn't about Hitler or browsers- this is about islamist and American creationists in bed with each other!

200 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:20:55pm

re: #180 MajorPribluda

If you don't know what I'm talking about, ask.

201 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:21:00pm

re: #163 slokat

I don't often agree with Cognito & he takes liberties that are not at all polite, but he is not a Troll.

I get tired of seeing that reference...

defining who is and isn't a troll isn't easy, and varies from practitioner to practitioner, like any other part of the psychology field.

at the very least, he's a shit stirrer.

202 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:21:12pm

re: #196 Sharmuta

I didn't do that to help you. I did it to help my fellow Lizards- many of whom would reject your notions if they take the time to look into them.

oh.. well I thank you anyway. less typing. cheers.

203 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:21:16pm

re: #185 unixrab

Oh, dear.

204 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:21:22pm

re: #183 Salamantis

Sal: and Martin Niemoller, who wrote the famous poem "First they came..." was originally one of Hitler's supporters.

And, most of the Jewish leaders/politicians originally went along with his demands.... so what does that prove?

205 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:21:54pm

re: #194 Sharmuta

Yeah- nothing like pushing your idea of Christianity onto the children of other people to give anyone the idea of rudeness.

I fail to see that reference.. but the rudeness I do NOT understand.

206 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:22:12pm

re: #188 unixrab

But you are.

207 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:22:14pm

re: #142 unixrab

AHHHHH my tax dollars are already funding something that says I'm a liar, my church is lying, my ... my.. GRAMGRAM is lying... my little daughter has to listen to the evolutionist drivel without the slightest mentioning that "oh yes.. .92% of Americans believe in a a God or Higher Power" yeah.. leave that 36,000 strong census out. barf.

Sal: Let me put this ungently and indelicately, so that it may - maybe - penetrate beneath your brow ridges and into your brain: the belief, or lack of same, in a god or higher power, doesn't have JACK SHIT to do with evolutionary theory one way or the other. If it did, then one billion plus Roman Catholics decided to convert to atheism, for their church accepts evolutionary theory as valid and sound science.

208 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:22:45pm

re: #186 Milk Toast Intolerant

What do you think of the FACT that ID is merely a "Find and Replace" operation whereby "creation" was replaced by "intelligent design"? Go back and watch the NOVA program that Charles posted a while back.

cdesign proponentsist!

209 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:22:47pm

re: #193 redc1c4

I want to say that it's kept by the goddess.. but am unsure

210 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:23:19pm

re: #197 gman

It looks like "Atlas" is the first book in a seven part series

Oktar has some serious resources

how do we get on the mailing list, to soak up said resources? %-)

211 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:23:22pm

re: #206 Dianna

I'm not trying to be.

212 Thanos  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:23:29pm

Here's another sign -- Amy Proctor's blog. Scroll down her sidebar, you see the Pope, her support for the war, conservative causes, then under creation and evolution: blam... Harun Yahya.

213 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:24:59pm

re: #201 redc1c4

shit stirrer, can't find that in my "Troll Job Manual"... must be a hobby?

/

214 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:25:17pm

re: #152 slokat

Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, true.

slokat: I can debate that, but it hinges on things that we no longer take for granted.... and he hated the current (for his time) Pope more, than almost any other thing in his world.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und iren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word treatise written by German Reformation leader Martin Luther in 1543.

In the treatise, Luther writes that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[3] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[4] afforded no legal protection,[5] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[6] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."[7]

215 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:25:41pm

re: #211 unixrab

Then I suggest you do some reading.

216 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:25:47pm

re: #207 Salamantis

Sal: Let me put this ungently and indelicately, so that it may - maybe - penetrate beneath your brow ridges and into your brain: the belief, or lack of same, in a god or higher power, doesn't have JACK SHIT to do with evolutionary theory one way or the other. If it did, then one billion plus Roman Catholics decided to convert to atheism, for their church accepts evolutionary theory as valid and sound science.

it's the other way around... you're teaching my kids that the bible is wrong. That is unacceptable.

... in a free country.

217 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:26:09pm

re: #215 Dianna

I might. suggestions?

218 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:26:12pm

re: #171 Salamantis

You are in error here; tragic error.

- 95% of Hitler's Germans declared themselves officially as Christian.
- During the first years of Hitler's rule, 95 - 98% of this same population supported Nazi policies through regular referendum.
- Hitler never closed a church.
- Hitler banned pagans from school boards and banished pagan literature from the military.
- Hitler had to order some churches to remove his picture from their altars.
- The Hitler Youth had youth pastors and over 100 Hitler Youth camps had Bible teaching.
- The Gestapo raised funds for African missions.

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

What's the tragic part of not associating Hitler with Christianity?

219 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:26:46pm

I'm not sure Oktar is actually a radical Islamist, but the fellow sure does enjoy photos of himself.

220 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:27:14pm

re: #214 Salamantis

Luther was an anti-semite, agreed. He was also a witch-hunter.

I'm not much of a fan of Luther's. But he wrote some remarkable music, which tends to make me pause and wonder what demons drove him.

221 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:27:32pm

re: #216 unixrab
Public school does not teach anything about the Bible! Right , wrong or otherwise.

222 Syrah  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:27:56pm

re: #190 Mel Lono

That one just got to the pile/ tbd

I don't know what your comment means here.

Assuming that you might have some interest in eschatology, Joel Richardson's work is recommendable.

I would also suggest looking into the religious beliefs of the Yezidi. Fascinating stuff, particularly when it comes to their take on Lucifer.

223 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:28:01pm

re: #216 unixrab

No.

You have donned blinders, and are trying to limit god.

224 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:28:07pm

re: #212 Thanos

Nice find.

225 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:28:49pm

re: #218 MajorPribluda

What's the tragic part of not associating Hitler with Christianity?

hey.. wait a minute... sometimes "christian" and "catholic" get mixed up as synonyms... they are not. Make sure your story is focusing on whether these are catholic's loyal to the pope or Christians... persecuted by both Protestants and Catholics for most of our history.

226 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:29:14pm

re: #223 Dianna

OK. but I asked.

227 gman  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:29:31pm

Click on any of the websites (33 total) listed on this page and guess what you find at the very bottom of each one?

Harun Yahya

228 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:29:33pm

re: #208 Dan G.

What do you think of the FACT that ID is merely a "Find and Replace" operation whereby "creation" was replaced by "intelligent design"? Go back and watch the NOVA program that Charles posted a while back.

cdesign proponentsist!

My point is that one doesn't have to accept everything that science has to offer to be considered appreciative of the luxuries afforded by science. Some people don't understand certain aspects of science, so they don't subscribe to it. Many ID believers don't believe in macro evolution and that upsets you?

229 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:29:47pm

re: #221 pingjockey

Public school does not teach anything about the Bible! Right , wrong or otherwise.

yes. indirectly.

230 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:29:57pm

And that was just one page of three.

I especially love the last shot, of him in a Versace t-shirt.

(Radical Islamist gear, though?)

231 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:30:15pm

re: #212 Thanos

Here's another sign -- Amy Proctor's blog. Scroll down her sidebar, you see the Pope, her support for the war, conservative causes, then under creation and evolution: blam... Harun Yahya.

I noticed she has LGF listed on her blog roll under "Top Brass"...is that another sign?

Oh and Mother Teresa is on her side bar too - I never realized that Mother Teresa was an ID Islamic conspirator and I'm not sure but all of the Pro-Israel listings on her side bar must reflect some link as well?

Although the Star Wars ad there has me a little confused.

232 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:30:38pm

re: #142 unixrab

AHHHHH my tax dollars are already funding something that says I'm a liar, my church is lying, my ... my.. GRAMGRAM is lying... my little daughter has to listen to the evolutionist drivel without the slightest mentioning that "oh yes.. .92% of Americans believe in a a God or Higher Power" yeah.. leave that 36,000 strong census out. barf.

You know.... belief in God doesn't negate the theory of evolution.

Okay...well, obviously you think it does but that doesn't make it true.

Fortunately, we generally don't pander to personal beliefs when it comes to public education.

233 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:30:43pm

re: #170 unixrab

Yeah... my Bible did... said that God hand made us from dust and breathed into us life... a soul... that animals don't have...

Sal: Your Bible also said that Pi = 3, and the epicyclic game of sophist rhetorical twister that is played to justify that one is stupendous to behold.

234 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:31:19pm

re: #217 unixrab

Just read the freakin' links.

I don't - really - understand the urge of some Christians to limit god's power to the understanding of people who weren't real clear on how fire was made, who decided which animals were "clean" on criteria that relied on visible criteria, but even then had to insert exceptions, and had no clue about the germ theory of disease.

235 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:31:41pm

re: #228 Milk Toast Intolerant

No. What I'm speaking to is the FACT that ID is a fraud. I don't care if someone is a creationist, I just care if they're attacking my Constitution. If you want to associate your self with a fraudulent cause, that's your choice. I was just trying to let you know the history of that "movement".

236 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:31:51pm

re: #174 Neo Con since 9-11

Strawman, No one here has defended either of those two taxpayer funded "exhibits".

venjanz said:

If you truly believe in what America stands for, you would agree with me.

I want to see if his venom extends as far in one direction as it does in the other. As it is, I do agree with his original statement, but the second part seems a needless bomb to toss.

Thanks for playing.

237 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:31:51pm

re: #232 Wendya

You know.... belief in God doesn't negate the theory of evolution.

Okay...well, obviously you think it does but that doesn't make it true.

Fortunately, we generally don't pander to personal beliefs when it comes to public education.

It's also MY kids attending your 'public education' at my expense...

238 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:32:05pm

re: #230 Cognito

looks like a child molestor

239 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:32:26pm

re: #233 Salamantis

Sal: Your Bible also said that Pi = 3, and the epicyclic game of sophist rhetorical twister that is played to justify that one is stupendous to behold.

we went through that... didn't you read the info?

240 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:33:10pm

re: #176 unixrab

I love science.

Sal: Lemme guess; you love creation science; right?

Oxymoron alert...

241 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:33:36pm

re: #240 Salamantis

Disarm you with a smile.

242 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:34:03pm

re: #233 Salamantis

Sal: Your Bible also said that Pi = 3, and the epicyclic game of sophist rhetorical twister that is played to justify that one is stupendous to behold.

It did? I don't recall either the Old or New Testaments taking a position on the value of Pi!

I recall some legislature came close to doing so, but there's no biblical support for such a notion.

243 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:34:05pm

re: #131 Sharmuta

So now Darwin is to blame for terrorism and al-qaeda? It's not The Origin of Species that's to blame for that, it's the koran.

A Darwingo took mah bay-bee!

244 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:34:12pm

Whoever buys Oktar's books for him apparently also buys his clothes. He appears to wear Versace exclusively.

I never trust a religious man in jewelry.

245 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:34:13pm

re: #237 unixrab
Yep, and mine, and Achmeds, and Yuris, and a whole lot of other folks who aren't Christian burt some other faith. Do you propose to teach just the Christian version of creation or all faiths versions?

246 Carridine  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:34:47pm

re: #216 unixrab
"...teaching my kids that the Bible is wrong..."?

Science is taught in science class, the Bible and Biblical truths in Bible study...

Science is science. If your understanding of the Bible seems (to use your word) 'wrong', then adjust YOUR thinking, for God would not lie or deceive you, even when speaking in literal symbols.

The Holy Bible is true, but it isn't science...

247 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:34:51pm

re: #199 Sharmuta

Such discussion inevitably degenerate to Hitler. I think there is a law about it --Godwin's or Gresham's? I have a difficult time remembering such things.

Easier to avoid them.

248 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:35:09pm

re: #240 Salamantis

Sal: Lemme guess; you love creation science; right?

Oxymoron alert...

No! I like all the crazy science ! I like the Universe and the constellations and realizing that none of you have the faintest idea that God controls time and therefore can do with it what He wills... .inclucing filling in a 12Billion years of light like you fill in a graph paper with point A to point B --- done. next

249 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:35:19pm

Night all.

250 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:35:28pm

re: #185 unixrab

I don't believe in any of those things. .. well except an Almighty Higher power. (omniscient, omnipresent too)

Sal: And that belief does not demand that you reject evolutionary theory as the sound and valid science that it is.

251 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:36:07pm

re: #246 Carridine

"...teaching my kids that the Bible is wrong..."?

Science is taught in science class, the Bible and Biblical truths in Bible study...

Science is science. If your understanding of the Bible seems (to use your word) 'wrong', then adjust YOUR thinking, for God would not lie or deceive you, even when speaking in literal symbols.

The Holy Bible is true, but it isn't science...

The bible mentions science twice - once positively and once negatively. It's pretty relevant.

252 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:36:22pm

re: #170 unixrab

Yeah... my Bible did... said that God hand made us from dust and breathed into us life... a soul... that animals don't have...

my cats are loving, intelligent beings with personality and if they're not there in your Paradise when i die, i'd rather be where they go then spend eternity with the likes of you.

mostly because kicking your sorry ass 24/7/365 forever would get boring: at least da Boyz are entertaining.

not to mention, loving, kind and caring. attributes you seem to be sorely lacking in, among others.

/HTH. HAND. YAAA. ESAD.........

253 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:36:24pm

re: #200 Dianna

If you don't know what I'm talking about, ask.

I have only the faintest idea that you are referring to texts written by one of the Caesars. Just a grammar joke.

254 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:37:06pm

re: #248 unixrab

So you rejoice in leashing god to your own inadequate understanding?

How interesting. And how very sad.

255 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:37:39pm

re: #214 Salamantis

I could read that to you in German, if you'd like.

He pulled no punches & hated the merchants that were not following their own religious rules but taking advantage of the peasants around him.

Heck, in German he sounds alot like at marxist socialist. He was against almost everything that was establishment. (to his credit or not)

But, he reserved even more harsh criticism for his Pope.

256 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:37:47pm

re: #250 Salamantis

Sal: And that belief does not demand that you reject evolutionary theory as the sound and valid science that it is.

Yes, Sal, it does.. God either formed the race of Man MANUALLY from the dust of the ground of Eden and then breathed his essence into him giving him a soul or we are so-much glorified tadpoles.

(+3billion yars)

257 RTLM  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:37:52pm

re: #230 Cognito

And that was just one page of three.

I especially love the last shot, of him in a Versace t-shirt.

(Radical Islamist gear, though?)

One vain SOB...

(Islamic metrosexual?)

258 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:38:08pm

re: #251 unixrab

The bible mentions science twice - once positively and once negatively. It's pretty relevant.

Citations? The entire Bible's on line, these days, in multiple versions. Please link your preferred translation.

259 Racer X  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:38:19pm

re: #244 Cognito

I never trust a religious man in jewelry.


Or one who drives fancy cars, lives in a mansion, surrounded by babes, etc.

260 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:38:27pm

re: #142 unixrab

Oops! Mis-ding, please ignore it, my finger slipped.

ugh, I am so embarrassed

261 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:38:42pm

re: #254 Dianna

So you rejoice in leashing god to your own inadequate understanding?

How interesting. And how very sad.

He knows I'm a moron.. just trying to help out. He doesn't usually care unless I'm sending people directly to Hell because of me.. but we've seen no evidence of that.

262 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:39:19pm

re: #253 MajorPribluda

Go to Amazon and try Caesar's Conquest of Britain.

Also just try Stuart Pigott, The Druids.

263 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:39:22pm

re: #260 Slumbering Behemoth

Oops! Mis-ding, please ignore it, my finger slipped.

ugh, I am so embarrassed

hahah riiiiiiight... check the other thread for the world record in dings. humph!

264 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:39:33pm

re: #195 slokat

Hitler set up a "State" church that most / many (you choose) pastors/churches refused to be a part of...

His claims were as accurate in these matters as most of his other claims...

Sal: Yeah; one group of churches continued to support him after the Final Solution was put into action and became more or less public knowledge ,and another group did not. Both groups were Christian. Both groups had many member churches.

265 Syrah  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:00pm

re: #244 Cognito

I never trust a religious man in jewelry.

I too am distrustful of someone who claims to be religious and who is also so obviously vain about their attire.

266 realwest  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:03pm

re: #159 sngnsgt Got your e-mail and I've replied to you! Check your e-mail, please.

267 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:22pm

re: #213 slokat

shit stirrer, can't find that in my "Troll Job Manual"... must be a hobby?

/

i'm gonna be one next week: went to HRH's hospital last night for 4 hours to help out, and found a fax.

staffing company was looking for people to cover a strike here in CA. being a shit, and a *broke* shit at that, that i am, i called up.

i have to report in caturday evening, orientate on sunday, and w*rk 0700-1900 all week. they put me up in a hotel, and the pay is not bad....

plus it's a state facility, so i'm protecting my tax dollars whilst spending them. %-)

268 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:27pm

I think at least half of any given religious document is pure bullshit, but that doesn't mean I don't keep the Tanakh on my nightstand.

269 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:39pm

re: #256 unixrab

Yes, Sal, it does.. God either formed the race of Man MANUALLY from the dust of the ground of Eden and then breathed his essence into him giving him a soul or we are so-much glorified tadpoles.

(+3billion yars)

I am loathe to dip a toe into the whole Creation/Not-Creation discussion, but I am curious: Is it not possible that the very earliest stories in the Bible are metaphorical in the same way the very last ones are?

270 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:40pm

re: #258 Dianna

Citations? The entire Bible's on line, these days, in multiple versions. Please link your preferred translation.

the AV - accept no substitutes.

271 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:42pm

re: #259 Racer X

Or one involved in video taped rape, blackmail, etc...

Wikipedia

272 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:40:46pm

re: #235 Dan G.

No. What I'm speaking to is the FACT that ID is a fraud. I don't care if someone is a creationist, I just care if they're attacking my Constitution. If you want to associate your self with a fraudulent cause, that's your choice. I was just trying to let you know the history of that "movement".

What is your beef with my original response to Pawn of the Oppressor? I know it's not about whether or not ID is a fraud. POTO seemed to imply that just because someone doesn't subscribe to one part of science, it automatically makes them hypocrites for partaking of the bountiful luxuries the rest of science has to offer. I'm not here to support ID being taught in science class, and I am already aware of the creationism/ID "evolution."

273 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:41:09pm

re: #261 unixrab

You're not helping your case.

274 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:41:25pm

re: #254 Dianna

So you rejoice in leashing god to your own inadequate understanding?

How interesting. And how very sad.

i feel sorry for g*d, but one must assume she knows what she's doing....

/kinda like being married %-)

275 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:41:38pm

re: #269 Cognito

I am loathe to dip a toe into the whole Creation/Not-Creation discussion, but I am curious: Is it not possible that the very earliest stories in the Bible are metaphorical in the same way the very last ones are?

ANYTHING'S possible.. but PROBABLE... no.. look at darwinism. Not probable.

276 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:42:08pm

re: #273 Dianna

augh.. I have a case? help!

277 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:42:10pm

re: #263 unixrab

Its quite apparent that you are a persona non grata and yet you continue to hang out here. Why?

278 Carridine  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:42:35pm

re: #251 unixrab

Yes, RELEVANT to this thread, this discussion... I was just saying that trying to make science the evil bad guy here, 'teaching MY KIDS that the Bible is wrong' is specious reasoning.

Science teaches that which is observable, can be observed, and we record our observations.

Science is a method of examining Reality.

To twist that into a refutation of Biblical truth is inappropriate, a non sequitur AND a strawman argument.

Gotta go. BBIAW as K

279 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:42:48pm

re: #269 Cognito

Oy!

It will depend on who you ask. And it's contentious.

280 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:42:51pm

re: #204 slokat

re: #183 Salamantis

Sal: and Martin Niemoller, who wrote the famous poem "First they came..." was originally one of Hitler's supporters.

And, most of the Jewish leaders/politicians originally went along with his demands.... so what does that prove?

Sal2: That they made a drastic mistake in being passive and hoping that if they rolled over and did not offend, people would leave them alone. They will never decide that way again.

281 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:42:59pm

re: #268 Pawn of the Oppressor

I think at least half of any given religious document is pure bullshit, but that doesn't mean I don't keep the Tanakh on my nightstand.

i have a bottle of scotch on mine, and the only part i don't really like is the glass, but it does it's j*b, so i have no real grounds to complain.

/except it gets empty so damn fast..... %-)

282 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:43:00pm

re: #277 Dan G.

And why are people engaging him/her? It's like talking to a brick wall.

283 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:43:05pm

re: #272 Milk Toast Intolerant

I wasn't speaking to the context of your exchange with pawn. I've stated my reason. Take it or leave it.

284 Racer X  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:43:09pm

Cognito keeps things grounded interesting.

Not a troll.

Definitely contrarian.

285 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:43:37pm

I asked God to create an object he could not lift once. He stroked his beard, looked at me, patted my shoulder, and then laughed.

We went out for some beers and became good friends.

286 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:43:37pm

re: #270 unixrab

the AV - accept no substitutes.

Where are your citations?

No more ducking - link your cites!

287 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:44:00pm

re: #277 Dan G.

Its quite apparent that you are a persona non grata and yet you continue to hang out here. Why?

I like Charles politics and keen eye for cool news and awesome breaking stuff - and I'm anti-islamofacism and a fiscal and social conservative.

288 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:44:04pm

re: #237 unixrab

It's also MY kids attending your 'public education' at my expense...

If you want your children indoctrinated to believe that the earth is flat, women are supposed to cover their hair and man was created from dust, you're going to have to do it in your OWN home and stop asking the government to do it for you.

I swear.... some of you are worse than the leftists when it comes to expecting government to be mommy and daddy.

289 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:44:44pm

re: #154 Milk Toast Intolerant


Just as the Pope does not speak for Christians, the people at the Discovery Institute also does not speak for ID proponents. Many of us who believe in the Genesis account don't want it taught in science classes.

One minor quibble: The people at the Discovery Institute are the ones who coined the term Intelligent Design as a cover to push Creationism into public schools. They not only speak for ID proponents, they are THE major proponents of ID.

290 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:44:49pm

re: #286 Dianna

Where are your citations?

No more ducking - link your cites!

huh.. there wasn't a link in 286?

291 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:45:03pm

re: #275 unixrab

ANYTHING'S possible.. but PROBABLE... no.. look at darwinism. Not probable.

Excellent. So we agree it's possible that the Creation story, as presented in Genesis, is possibly metaphorical.

Just like that, we've eliminated the tension between faith and science.

Done.

292 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:45:08pm

re: #277 Dan G.

Its quite apparent that you are a persona non grata and yet you continue to hang out here. Why?

Let Charles decide that.

293 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:45:35pm

re: #256 unixrab

Yes, Sal, it does.. God either formed the race of Man MANUALLY from the dust of the ground of Eden and then breathed his essence into him giving him a soul or we are so-much glorified tadpoles.

(+3billion yars)

I don't see how we have any less dignity in being evolved from the very atoms of creation over a span of time that we can't even comprehend. A tadpole is a mind-blowing miracle compared to a blue algae, and finding a blue algae on another planet, ANY planet, would be among the greatest events in human history.

To not see this, or refuse to see it, is an act of chauvinism, conceit, and frankly, a denial of G-d.

Books are small, even old ones. The universe is bigger and more instructive than any old book, no matter how holy. Hence, science.

294 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:45:35pm

re: #288 Wendya

If you want your children indoctrinated to believe that the earth is flat, women are supposed to cover their hair and man was created from dust, you're going to have to do it in your OWN home and stop asking the government to do it for you.

I swear.... some of you are worse than the leftists when it comes to expecting government to be mommy and daddy.

but they want my money to oppose me... and they take it every month! c'mon!

295 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:46:05pm

re: #280 Salamantis

re: #183 Salamantis

Sal: and Martin Niemoller, who wrote the famous poem "First they came..." was originally one of Hitler's supporters.

And, most of the Jewish leaders/politicians originally went along with his demands.... so what does that prove?

Sal2: That they made a drastic mistake in being passive and hoping that if they rolled over and did not offend, people would leave them alone. They will never decide that way again.

If you asked most Lutherans, they would side with you in that regard.

296 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:46:07pm

re: #287 unixrab

Then just stay off the threads you disagree with!

297 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:46:16pm

re: #261 unixrab

He knows I'm a moron.

So......

You're saying God created a moron?

298 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:46:38pm

re: #292 Milk Toast Intolerant

Let Charles decide that.

He knows I'm not offensive, or lying or being a name-caller or anything other than a respectful dissenter. ask him.

299 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:47:14pm

re: #290 unixrab

To the whole bloody site! Not to your specific references.

No games! Either link where the Bible likes and dislikes science, or stop this.

300 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:47:15pm

re: #292 Milk Toast Intolerant

Uh? Of course Charles decides whether he's allowed to post here, but based on his interactions here no one likes him (except maybe you). Why would anyone want to be somewhere where they're amongst friends? Especially in a leisure time activity like chatting in the comments thread of a blog.

301 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:47:21pm

re: #297 Wendya

So......

You're saying God created a moron?

No. God created Adam and Eve. Through their sin... and generations of the effects of sin and (non helpful) mutations... you got moron.

302 Timbre  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:47:22pm
"Darwinism thinks it has deceived the entire world's populace like little children. This ideology presents coincidence as having divine consciousness, and asserts that it somehow possesses an amazing genius and greater knowledge than all of the people of the world. According to the evolutionists, time is the only thing necessary for this "genius" called coincidence to shape the brains of all those humans who have lived over thousands of years."

--Harun Yahya, "Consciousness in the Cell - 1," in Al-Jumuah, Volume 19, issue 1, January-February 2007.

303 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:47:53pm

re: #294 unixrab

but they want my money to oppose me... and they take it every month! c'mon!

What...you think our system of government was created specifically to support YOUR beliefs and goals?

304 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:48:02pm

re: #300 Dan G.

err. "...not amongst friends"

305 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:48:17pm

re: #301 unixrab

No. God created Adam and Eve. Through their sin... and generations of the effects of sin and (non helpful) mutations... you got moron.

Apparently, in your case.

306 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:49:15pm

re: #216 unixrab

it's the other way around... you're teaching my kids that the bible is wrong. That is unacceptable.

... in a free country.

Sal: Wrong again. Your kids are free to study their bible at home, in the park, in church, in private sectarian religious schools, even in public schools after hours, if they themselves get together (not led by faculty) and request a room to meet.

What they are NOT allowed to do is to have their teachers foist religion off as science in public school science class. ANY religion. Not just yours.

307 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:49:32pm

re: #299 Dianna

ohhh sorry. ... ok.. what links would you like? The earth has a hydrological cycle (years before it was discovered) ... the earth is round and has a circumference..before columbus ...science was studied in Rome and a thousand or so years before in Chaldea (Babylon) ... I am your googler!

308 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:49:46pm

re: #281 redc1c4

i have a bottle of scotch on mine, and the only part i don't really like is the glass, but it does it's j*b, so i have no real grounds to complain.

/except it gets empty so damn fast..... %-)

That's one of the things about being Lutheran & enjoying the Hebrew scriptures...

"my cup runs over"

309 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:49:49pm

re: #289 Slumbering Behemoth

One minor quibble: The people at the Discovery Institute are the ones who coined the term Intelligent Design as a cover to push Creationism into public schools. They not only speak for ID proponents, they are THE major proponents of ID.

Creationism, Intelligent Design......same thing to me. Bible believing Christians know that, and I forget when DI was appointed spokespeople for creationist/ID proponents.

310 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:49:58pm

re: #305 Wendya

Apparently, in your case.

that's what I said.. keep up.

311 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:50:25pm

Dianna, I don't think he understands what you're asking.

312 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:50:27pm

re: #309 Milk Toast Intolerant

When they created the term.

313 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:50:30pm

re: #296 Dianna

Then just stay off the threads you disagree with!

I'm curious Dianna. I've seen you use capital letters tonight for "Amazon" , "Christians", "New Testament" and quite frankly, every other word deserving of capitalization except when you type "god." Can you tell me why you do that?

314 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:50:59pm

re: #225 unixrab

hey.. wait a minute... sometimes "christian" and "catholic" get mixed up as synonyms... they are not. Make sure your story is focusing on whether these are catholic's loyal to the pope or Christians... persecuted by both Protestants and Catholics for most of our history.

Are you fucking insane? I'm taking Salamantis to task for possibly* smearing Christians (all Christians, I would wager) from an ignorant neo-Pagan POV, and you want to get into it about fine differences in Christian sects?

* Not sure, Sal, if that ignorant POV is yours or not. Not calling you ignorant without clarification.

315 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:51:25pm

re: #218 MajorPribluda

What's the tragic part of not associating Hitler with Christianity?

Sal: Because Hitler DID make use of Christianity...horrible use. And those who do not learn from such terrible lessons are more likely to repeat them the next time some charismatic individual with terrible plans winks seductively at their faith.

316 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:51:30pm

re: #306 Salamantis

Sal: Wrong again. Your kids are free to study their bible at home, in the park, in church, in private sectarian religious schools, even in public schools after hours, if they themselves get together (not led by faculty) and request a room to meet.

What they are NOT allowed to do is to have their teachers foist religion off as science in public school science class. ANY religion. Not just yours.

I know this.. I volunteer at a local middle school for early morning bible studies and a few songs. But they still have to go to "science" class and hear how the Bible is stupid and ignorant religious ramblings.. which is not so. It is truth.

317 Racer X  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:52:00pm

re: #311 Cognito

Dianna, I don't think he understands what you're asking.

Really?

I do - and I'm really slow.

318 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:52:07pm

re: #291 Cognito

Excellent. So we agree it's possible that the Creation story, as presented in Genesis, is possibly metaphorical.

Just like that, we've eliminated the tension between faith and science.

Done.

In my understanding

First telling is an oral history.
Second telling is a hymn.

(Hebrew scholars - please tell me if I understand that wrong)

319 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:52:45pm

re: #315 Salamantis

Sal: Because Hitler DID make use of Christianity...horrible use. And those who do not learn from such terrible lessons are more likely to repeat them the next time some charismatic individual with terrible plans winks seductively at their faith.

I would say the question is not whether Hitler made use of Christianity, but whether Christianity made use of Hitler.

Of course not.

Also of course, any good thing can be misused.

320 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:53:25pm

re: #314 MajorPribluda

Are you fucking insane? I'm taking Salamantis to task for possibly* smearing Christians (all Christians, I would wager) from an ignorant neo-Pagan POV, and you want to get into it about fine differences in Christian sects?

* Not sure, Sal, if that ignorant POV is yours or not. Not calling you ignorant without clarification.

uh.. is that rhetorical? Don't worry.. Sal doesn't like me much... so if you don't either...well.. .someone said "the person that doesn't like me can be allies with the other person that doesn't like me..". or something like that.

321 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:53:41pm

re: #300 Dan G.

Uh? Of course Charles decides whether he's allowed to post here, but based on his interactions here no one likes him (except maybe you). Why would anyone want to be somewhere where they're amongst friends? Especially in a leisure time activity like chatting in the comments thread of a blog.

What is your problem with people not sharing your views? LGF isn't an echo chamber. Few people get along with Cognito, but he hasn't been disrespectful or belligerent. I don't know unixrab but if he's anything like Cognito or Naso Tang or even Gordon, I don't mind having him around.

322 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:54:00pm

re: #307 unixrab

In other words, you can't - or won't - supply your citations.

323 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:54:19pm

re: #315 Salamantis

Sal: Because Hitler DID make use of Christianity...horrible use. And those who do not learn from such terrible lessons are more likely to repeat them the next time some charismatic individual with terrible plans winks seductively at their faith.

major props.. this is true.

324 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:54:31pm

re: #237 unixrab

It's also MY kids attending your 'public education' at my expense...

you might wanna fall back and regroup on that:

i'm also paying for your little genetic dead ends to go to school, and i get a say in what they are given to ignore on their way to dropping out and becoming even more of a burden on society.

if you only want them to get your personally approved, flat earth, it all happened in 7 days "education", do us all a favor and pull them out of public school to either a private institute of ignorance of your choice or keep them at home until they are old enough to escape your clutches. of course you'll have to suck it up and pay for that out of your won pocket, but if your beliefs are that strong, it shouldn't be a problem.

that way the rest of the kids will have a chance to actually learn something useful, and you can play g*d with the lives you were entrusted with. with luck, and a few years of therapy & remedial education, they'll overcome your 'love'.

325 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:54:42pm

re: #308 slokat

That's one of the things about being Lutheran & enjoying the Hebrew scriptures...

"my cup runs over"

;DSHLKJFLI'EEEEEEEEEEEEAazsxcsaxcdsc

Damn i hat when i pass out and my nose hits the keyboard...

326 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:54:57pm

re: #313 ornery elephant

I'm a pagan.

No, that does not mean a fuzzy bunny worshipper.

327 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:55:23pm

re: #316 unixrab

But they still have to go to "science" class and hear how the Bible is stupid and ignorant religious ramblings.. which is not so. It is truth.

No shit? They're teaching the bible in your kid's science class?

Or... are you taking the position that no subject in school is allowed to deviate in any way from what you seem to think is in the Bible?

Just out of curiosity, are you fluent in Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Aramaic?

328 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:55:27pm

re: #322 Dianna

In other words, you can't - or won't - supply your citations.

citations for whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat!?

329 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:55:52pm

re: #315 Salamantis

Sal: Because Hitler DID make use of Christianity...horrible use. And those who do not learn from such terrible lessons are more likely to repeat them the next time some charismatic individual with terrible plans winks seductively at their faith.

Question Sal. Which do you think is a bigger threat to this world - Christianity or islamofascism?

330 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:56:07pm

re: #275 unixrab

ANYTHING'S possible.. but PROBABLE... no.. look at darwinism. Not probable.

true: it's likely.

/unlike "creationism", in any flavor.

331 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:56:41pm

re: #225 unixrab

hey.. wait a minute... sometimes "christian" and "catholic" get mixed up as synonyms... they are not. Make sure your story is focusing on whether these are catholic's loyal to the pope or Christians... persecuted by both Protestants and Catholics for most of our history.

Sal: (performs double-take)...Whaaaat?!? So now neither Protestants or Catholics are, according to you, Christians? Whatever's left must not be a substantial percentage.

I once briefly corresponded with a scandinavian guy who informed me that he and his 26 friends were the only true Christians in the world, but he had doubts about 7 of them.

332 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:57:03pm

re: #316 unixrab

I know this.. I volunteer at a local middle school for early morning bible studies and a few songs. But they still have to go to "science" class and hear how the Bible is stupid and ignorant religious ramblings.. which is not so. It is truth.

and your proof of this "truth" is what, exactly?

333 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:57:12pm

re: #327 Wendya

No shit? They're teaching the bible in your kid's science class?

Or... are you taking the position that no subject in school is allowed to deviate in any way from what you seem to think is in the Bible?

Just out of curiosity, are you fluent in Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Aramaic?

Greek mostly. But it's Koine dialect... it's no longer spoken...so I can guess at how it's spoken...but it's just a guess. Hebrew no.. can't go left to right, Latin... no... too many 's's and aramaic.. it's kinda a hybrid... never got it..

334 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:03pm

re: #333 unixrab

Greek mostly. But it's Koine dialect... it's no longer spoken...so I can guess at how it's spoken...but it's just a guess. Hebrew no.. can't go left to right, Latin... no... too many 's's and aramaic.. it's kinda a hybrid... never got it..

Then how do you know what the Bible really says? You're depending on flawed men to translate it for you.

335 Racer X  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:03pm

re: #331 Salamantis

I once briefly corresponded with a scandinavian guy who informed me that he and his 26 friends were the only true Christians in the world, but he had doubts about 7 of them.

LOL!

*eyes the room*

336 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:04pm

re: #331 Salamantis

Sal: (performs double-take)...Whaaaat?!? So now neither Protestants or Catholics are, according to you, Christians? Whatever's left must not be a substantial percentage.

I once briefly corresponded with a scandinavian guy who informed me that he and his 26 friends were the only true Christians in the world, but he had doubts about 7 of them.

hey! Well I'm glad to let you know.. that both Protestants and Catholics killed us during the reformation.

337 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:12pm

re: #308 slokat

That's one of the things about being Lutheran & enjoying the Hebrew scriptures...

"my cup runs over"

pour slower or drink faster....

/MORE CHANGE!

338 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:14pm

Uni, are you a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, or just a magnificent troll?

339 freetoken  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:21pm

re: #212 Thanos

Oktar must have some serious dough.... I just downloaded his (very beautifully illustrated) book (volume 1) in Japanese.

日本語だよ!
創造のアトラ&# 12473;と言う本は 365;れいですねӍ 0;。。。


I wonder in how many languages total he plans on publishing.

340 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:33pm

re: #311 Cognito

He's being obtuse, and it's his own fault. Trace the chain back - he indicates that the Bible states support for science once and lack of support once. I'm not a Biblical scholar, but that doesn't ring any bells for me.

I want citations to specific passages supporting what he stated. I'll accept any version, provided he actually has specific, in context, citations. That means that he doesn't take three words out of a long passage and claim it supports his position.

341 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:43pm

re: #312 Dan G.

When they created the term.

So the Discovery Institute appointed themselves spokespeople for the creationist/ID crowd, and that automatically means the creationist/ID crowd will support their agenda?

342 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:58:57pm

re: #326 Dianna

I'm a pagan.

No, that does not mean a fuzzy bunny worshipper.

Is a pagan different than an atheist?

343 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:59:37pm

re: #334 Wendya

Then how do you know what the Bible really says? You're depending on flawed men to translate it for you.

no no.. anointed men! "of many worthy men who went before us, there should be one more exact Translation of the holy Scriptures into the English Tongue

344 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:59:42pm

re: #287 unixrab

I like Charles politics and keen eye for cool news and awesome breaking stuff - and I'm anti-islamofacism and a fiscal and social conservative.

you left out 'raving lunatic'....

/here to help!

345 realwest  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:59:51pm

re: #147 redc1c4 I've e-mailed Miguel and have e-mailed the goddessoftheclassroom just now.
If you know or hear of anything more concerning my good friend Miguel, please e-mail me (my nic is in blue).
Thank you.

346 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 10:59:56pm

re: #338 venjanz

Uni, are you a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, or just a magnificent troll?

neither!

347 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:00:23pm

re: #321 Milk Toast Intolerant

Straw man. I'm not arguing with those who don't share my views (actually quite high here since I'm an atheist). What I'm doing is ascertaining whether you are knowingly partaking in the ID fraud or not. I initially granted you the benefit of the doubt and assumed not, and was attempting to draw your attention to it. But the fact that you have no problem associating yourself with a movement which was designed to be subversive by initially claiming that it was not religious and that it was not just creationism demonstrates that you too agree with their assault on the Constitution that costed the Dover taxpayers quit a bit of dough.

Once again. I don't care what others believe. I do care when they fraudulently try to pass creationism off as science in a direct infringement of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

348 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:00:23pm

re: #340 Dianna

He's being obtuse, and it's his own fault. Trace the chain back - he indicates that the Bible states support for science once and lack of support once. I'm not a Biblical scholar, but that doesn't ring any bells for me.

I want citations to specific passages supporting what he stated. I'll accept any version, provided he actually has specific, in context, citations. That means that he doesn't take three words out of a long passage and claim it supports his position.

No, I know -- it's just the baldness of his inability to back it up made me think maybe he didn't understand what you were asking him to provide.

349 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:00:46pm

re: #344 redc1c4

you left out 'raving lunatic'....

/here to help!

sheeesh.. Charles isn't a raving anything about anything. He's very level headed and meticulous.

350 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:00:52pm

re: #331 Salamantis

LOL - fully understand what you mean & LOL!

351 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:01:08pm

re: #269 Cognito

I am loathe to dip a toe into the whole Creation/Not-Creation discussion, but I am curious: Is it not possible that the very earliest stories in the Bible are metaphorical in the same way the very last ones are?

Bearing in mind the discussions here lately, I was re-reading Genesis/Bere'Shit just yesterday with this in mind, wondering how much of modern science was reflected in the old words. Take 1-3 for example:

"When God began to create heaven and earth - the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water - God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light."

Earth unformed, the "deep" is dark, there is wind, and then there is light... If you think of the evolution of the solar system, disregarding the wet interpretation of "water", it comes close enough for government work: "Winds" blow between the stars, matter coalesces, a proto-star forms, fusion begins, and then there is light. It sounds like the birth of our sun.

Then the rest, I won't quote (too lengthy), but each point:

- A separation of light from dark, which means that Earth is now a body that rotates relative to the light.

- Expanse separating the "water", I'm not sure about the old etymology of water in translating Hebrew to English (I have the JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh, and I don't read Hebrew unfortunately). Either way the sky is formed, which is the creation of an atmosphere for Earth. It took a while for the atmosphere to form according to scientific models, and for a while it wasn't anything we'd consider breathable, but there WAS a sky.

- Separation of seas and land. Real liquid water came to Earth fairly late in the game, if I recall correctly, possibly deposited by comets to some extent.

Things diverge from the scientific model here, the book skips right to the making of trees, etc. and THEN the creation of other stars before getting to the ambulatory critters. I understand that the earliest life on earth, over time, actually helped change the composition of the atmosphere - I think the current model is that blue algae were around for millions of years before there was significant oxygen in the atmosphere? But I wouldn't guess that it was really cloudy during this time, and then you could see stars afterwards. ;)

352 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:01:12pm

re: #346 unixrab

Somehow, I don't believe you. You are having too much fun.

353 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:01:16pm

re: #229 unixrab

re: #221 pingjockey

Public school does not teach anything about the Bible! Right , wrong or otherwise.

unixrab: yes. indirectly.

Sal: It must be horribly fearful to suspect an evangelizing relativist secular humanist atheist behind every teacher's desk...and think of the other kids!

You must strive to preserve their pure essence!

354 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:01:17pm

re: #261 unixrab

He knows I'm a moron.. just trying to help out. He doesn't usually care unless I'm sending people directly to Hell because of me.. but we've seen no evidence of that.

hell is other people, so by definition, you are responsible for at lest some damnations.....

now what?

355 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:01:54pm

re: #328 unixrab

Follow the chain back.

It's not my fault that I can keep to the point.

356 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:01:54pm

re: #342 ornery elephant


as a start, I would say that a pagan believes in something, though he knows not what.... An atheist believes in nothing, except the hope that she is right.

357 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:02:05pm

re: #341 Milk Toast Intolerant

They created ID. You use the term, you accept the association. Period.

358 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:02:18pm

re: #342 ornery elephant

Yes.

I am most certainly not an atheist.

359 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:03:07pm

re: #337 redc1c4

LOL - I have an abundance so why should I restrict my glass from enjoying it's share?

//...or the table, the floor, the dog?

360 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:03:21pm

re: #315 Salamantis

Sal: Because Hitler DID make use of Christianity...horrible use. And those who do not learn from such terrible lessons are more likely to repeat them the next time some charismatic individual with terrible plans winks seductively at their faith.

Okay, fair enough. So long as you are making a general statement about people being led by the abuse of one ideology in the service of another, we agree. But I balk at the claim that Hitler and "the Christians" (be they Catholic in this source, or Protestant in that) were in cahoots, and that this is somehow a shameful chapter for Christianity as a whole. And I think you will agree that this POV is popular with many (I am not claiming a majority) of Pagans.

361 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:03:21pm

re: #345 realwest
Same here, Red C. Concerned for Miguel.

Nite, Lizards. Missed too much of this thread to really comment.

Play nice.

362 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:03:45pm

re: #352 venjanz

Somehow, I don't believe you. You are having too much fun.

Do! I'm not taking any of the personal stuff seriously.. .so if you brush off the namecalling and the occasional slur.. it's still fun lively debate with a brand new crowd! But do whatever..

363 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:03:50pm

re: #342 ornery elephant

Is a pagan different than an atheist?

yes....

364 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:04:25pm

re: #358 Dianna

Yes.

I am most certainly not an atheist.

I guess what I'm trying to determine is when you type "god" in lower case are you referring to the god you believe in or are you referring to the G_d of the Christian and Jewish faiths?

365 realwest  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:04:50pm

re: #354 redc1c4
Please see my #345 re: Miguel!

366 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:05:19pm

re: #353 Salamantis

367 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:05:28pm

re: #331 Salamantis


I once briefly corresponded with a scandinavian guy who informed me that he and his 26 friends were the only true Christians in the world, but he had doubts about 7 of them.

This sounds like the punchline of a really good joke, but I'll be damned if I can think of a good setup.

368 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:05:28pm

re: #362 unixrab

It's more than that, I can detect the glee in your comments that transcends simple "debate."

369 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:05:52pm

re: #366 unixrab

that was supposed to be an arrow pointing up or left saying "kubrik fan"

370 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:06:08pm

re: #237 unixrab

It's also MY kids attending your 'public education' at my expense...

I guess that makes you special, just like every other parent. Shall we allow all of THEM to pack their personal religious beliefs into public high school science classes, too? The Hindus have a nifty creation model; so do the Buddhists. But they don't resemble yours one whit.

371 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:06:10pm

You have a hard-on right now, don't you?

372 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:06:10pm

re: #368 venjanz

It's almost juvenile.

373 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:06:26pm

re: #356 Mel Lono

Incorrect.

I won't discuss my beliefs, beyond that I have them. I respect religious belief; I do not share every single shred of belief proposed.

This pretty much ends any statement I have to make.

374 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:07:14pm

re: #342 ornery elephant

Is a pagan different than an atheist?

Very much so. Ahem. Speaking as an Agnostic, that is.

375 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:07:27pm

re: #263 unixrab

hahah riiiiiiight... check the other thread for the world record in dings. humph!

I gave you a plus by accident. As far as this so called "world record in dings" goes, you don't even come close to ranking, son, no matter how much you want to play the victim.

376 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:07:37pm

re: #362 unixrab

Do! I'm not taking any of the personal stuff seriously.. .so if you brush off the namecalling and the occasional slur.. it's still fun lively debate with a brand new crowd! But do whatever..

That's a great attitude, unixrab. It'll carry you a long way here, and see you through some pretty nasty disagreements. But if you do make a claim -- like you did about two Biblical references to science, one yea and one nay -- then it's good form to provide a citation.

Just a word to the wise.

377 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:07:55pm

re: #370 Salamantis

I guess that makes you special, just like every other parent. Shall we allow all of THEM to pack their personal religious beliefs into public high school science classes, too? The Hindus have a nifty creation model; so do the Buddhists. But they don't resemble yours one whit.

I should have the ability to send my property tax money to a school that supports me and my family's beliefs AS should the Buddhists. and Wiccans.

378 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:08:24pm

re: #364 ornery elephant

I'm being careful. I do not believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God.

It seems to me unfair - and deceptive - to use the upper case "God" when I do not share that belief.

379 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:08:35pm

re: #347 Dan G.

Straw man. I'm not arguing with those who don't share my views (actually quite high here since I'm an atheist). What I'm doing is ascertaining whether you are knowingly partaking in the ID fraud or not. I initially granted you the benefit of the doubt and assumed not, and was attempting to draw your attention to it. But the fact that you have no problem associating yourself with a movement which was designed to be subversive by initially claiming that it was not religious and that it was not just creationism demonstrates that you too agree with their assault on the Constitution that costed the Dover taxpayers quit a bit of dough.

Once again. I don't care what others believe. I do care when they fraudulently try to pass creationism off as science in a direct infringement of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

I believe in the Genesis account, but I don't support creationism/ID being taught in science class. Can you differentiate between those?

380 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:08:42pm

re: #239 unixrab

we went through that... didn't you read the info?

Sal: of course I read your linked 'info'; that's what I was referring to when I referred to the "epicyclic game of sophist rhetorical twister" being played in order to justify the ludicrous.

381 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:08:56pm

Ken Ham is one of the leaders of the creationist movement in Australia. He was one of about 4 speakers at a post-9/11 event I attended with a friend at a local church in Virgina.

On a hunch, I did a search on "Ken Ham" + Turkey
and turned up several items:
The Creation Museum emerges as a learning institution Pic caption: "Ken Ham, founder of the Creation Museum."

Aljazeera Covers the Grand Opening of the Creation Museum
by Michael Patrick Leahy

Mohammed Alami (on the left), Washington correspondent for the Aljazeera Television Network, at the Grand Opening of the Creation Museum is interviewed by Michael Patrick Leahy (on the right), Managing Editor of Christian Faith and Reason Magazine

On Saturday, May 26, 2007 the two bravest men in the state of Kentucky were Mohammed Alami, the Moroccan born Washington based correspondent for the Aljazeera Television network, and his Palestinian born cameraman, who had been assigned by their bosses in Quatar to cover the opening of the Creation Museum.
The only Muslims at the event, the two men did their best to blend in to the sea of mainly white, Christian faces listening to the "creation/gospel" of Ken Ham.

The threat from creationism to the rational teaching of biology (1/2) Excerpt:

Turkey may well constitute the most important source of creationist propaganda outside the USA, and it certainly explains much of the success of creationists in attracting support from Muslim students in the UK, Germany and France. Large meetings in modern congress centres with high attendance (Anonymous, 1998) illustrate the high degree of financial support, as does extensive publication of creationist texts (Anonymous, 2005): the book Evolution Deceit is available not only in Turkish and English, but also in French, German, Spanish, Italian, Russian and Arabic, and circulated in many countries, definitely including Argentina, and possibly others in Latin America (Anonymous, 2007c). Recently the profusely illustrated and expensively produced Atlas of Creation from the same source (Anonymous, 2007d) has been distributed in several languages free of charge to teachers, schools and universities in different countries.

Ken Ham - Dinosaurs Lived with People (video)

How Harun Yahya and the Discovery Institute changed my mind

Harun Yahya and Islamic Creationism

382 Racer X  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:09:29pm

Belief is very personal; thats why it's called faith.

383 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:10:02pm

re: #381 abolitionist

Ken Ham - Dinosaurs Lived with People (video)

That's got to be one heck of a video.

384 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:10:11pm

re: #376 Cognito

That's a great attitude, unixrab. It'll carry you a long way here, and see you through some pretty nasty disagreements. But if you do make a claim -- like you did about two Biblical references to science, one yea and one nay -- then it's good form to provide a citation.

Just a word to the wise.

OHHHHHHH GOT IT... (sorry dense) Daniel and the other 3 children of Israel are the positive mention of Science

and Paul mentions to Timothy the nasty side of science "falsely so called"

That's... Dan. 1:4 and Itim 6:20 sorry.

385 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:10:48pm

re: #377 unixrab

Nope. Sorry. The Constitution regards that as an establishment of religion.

Get over it.

386 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:11:16pm

re: #357 Dan G.

They created ID. You use the term, you accept the association. Period.

Because you said so. Wow, I didn't even know I was associated with the Discovery Institute. That's news to me.

387 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:11:37pm

re: #379 Milk Toast Intolerant

Verrrrry sssslowly. ID is a fraud. Why do you hang on to it. Honest creationists just say creationism. As regards you question. That's fine. You beliefs aren't my problem. You are OK keeping them out of science class. Great. But you look/sound like either a shill or a rube when you endorse ID.

388 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:12:25pm

re: #385 Dianna

Nope. Sorry. The Constitution regards that as an establishment of religion.

Get over it.

soooo I have to fund, mandatory ... schools that contradict our Bible in the area of Science and Creation. greeeeeeat.. . .. that sux for me huh?

389 RTLM  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:12:34pm

re: #382 Racer X

Belief is very personal; thats why it's called faith.

That's the most coherent and true comment on this thread so far.

Faith indeed.

390 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:13:10pm

re: #386 Milk Toast Intolerant

Watch the damned NOVA video.

391 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:13:25pm

re: #383 Cognito

That's got to be one heck of a video.

It's very short, and it's Ken Ham & creationism in a nutshell.

If ever you find anything more anti-science (besides islam) let me know, ok?

392 Metal Man  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:13:26pm

I tend to stay out of the ID threads and this is why.

I do most days believe there is a higher power (but we all have days like Job).
I am a trained scientist of sorts.
I recognize that which science will never explain.
I have a hard time arguing against ID taught in Public Schools since they are already sorely lacking in actually teaching real science.
I have an even harder time arguing for teaching ID (2 wrongs don't make a right).

393 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:13:45pm

re: #386 Milk Toast Intolerant

I think that makes you what is known as a "useful idiot".

394 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:14:12pm

ok.. sheesh.. it's 1:11am.. I gotta work , but I'll check back with you guys tomorrow. ! Sleep Well... thanks for the debate.. Thanks again Charles. ! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

395 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:14:39pm

re: #242 Dianna

It did? I don't recall either the Old or New Testaments taking a position on the value of Pi!

I recall some legislature came close to doing so, but there's no biblical support for such a notion.

Sal: 1 Kings 7:23 ¶ And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

Ten across and thirty around makes pi=3.

396 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:15:16pm

re: #384 unixrab

Ah...

Daniel 1:4:

youths in whom was no defect, who were good-looking, showing intelligence in every branch of wisdom, endowed with understanding and discerning knowledge, and who had ability for serving in the king's court; and he ordered him to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans.

and 1 Timothy 6:20:

Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the pointless discussions and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.

I leave to anyone else's judgment whether these refer to science positively and negatively.

I don't think so, but...well...I expect my opinion to be dismissed.

397 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:15:57pm

Ladies and gent's, Uni is wasting your time, and laughing hysterically behind his keyboard every time you respond to him. The longer and more thought out your response, the harder he laughs.

He might even believe what he says, but it doesn't matter. He's carrying on for his own entertainment.

398 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:16:05pm

re: #388 unixrab

It sucks to be a lot of us.

Get over it.

399 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:16:34pm

re: #396 Dianna

"... what is falsely called knowledge."

Is that like ID? ;)

400 Racer X  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:17:17pm

re: #396 Dianna

Avoid the pointless discussions and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.


Word.

I'm out.

401 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:17:33pm

re: #248 unixrab

No! I like all the crazy science ! I like the Universe and the constellations and realizing that none of you have the faintest idea that God controls time and therefore can do with it what He wills... .inclucing filling in a 12Billion years of light like you fill in a graph paper with point A to point B --- done. next

Sal: And you just love a god who would lie to us poor rubes, all over the world and beyond, in his book of nature, just to get his divine rocks off? In that case, what makes you think he told those ancient rubes who wrote the Bible the truth?

402 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:17:45pm

re: #392 Metal Man

Job never really doubts; his wife urges him, "Curse God and die," but he won't.

He just wants to know why these horrible things are happening to him. God just says he isn't wise enough to know.

403 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:18:56pm

re: #395 Salamantis

If it's a circle, no it doesn't.

I remember that much geometry!

404 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:19:07pm

re: #251 unixrab

The bible mentions science twice - once positively and once negatively. It's pretty relevant.

Sal: Back then they didn't have science, even if they used the word. They didn't have a scientific method or a verification principle or a principle of falsifiability. No comparison.

405 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:19:37pm

re: #384 unixrab

OHHHHHHH GOT IT... (sorry dense) Daniel and the other 3 children of Israel are the positive mention of Science

and Paul mentions to Timothy the nasty side of science "falsely so called"

That's... Dan. 1:4 and Itim 6:20 sorry.

Well. Let's have a look.

The first one, in your preferred iteration:


Daniel 1:3-5 (New International Version)

3 Then the king ordered Ashpenaz, chief of his court officials, to bring in some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility- 4 young men without any physical defect, handsome, showing aptitude for every kind of learning, well informed, quick to understand, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the language and literature of the Babylonians. [a] 5 The king assigned them a daily amount of food and wine from the king's table. They were to be trained for three years, and after that they were to enter the king's service.

And the second:

1 Timothy 6:19-21 (King James Version)

19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

20O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

21Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

The first seems to be a plaudit for Daniel's understanding of science: Thumbs up for scientific study.

The second a bit tricky, but seems to be an admonishment to avoid entanglement with bad science, the downfall of some other believers. That meaning is clearer in the New International Version: "20Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. "

So. Thumbs up all around for good and honest science.

Right?

406 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:19:50pm

re: #316 unixrab

I know this.. I volunteer at a local middle school for early morning bible studies and a few songs. But they still have to go to "science" class and hear how the Bible is stupid and ignorant religious ramblings.. which is not so. It is truth.

You are so full of crap. If that were actually happening in any public school the teacher spouting such nonsense would be disciplined, if not fired.

407 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:19:55pm

re: #361 Pvt Bin Jammin

Same here, Red C. Concerned for Miguel.

Nite, Lizards. Missed too much of this thread to really comment.

Play nice.

well, *that's* no fun.... (t3h 1nterwb3s are a full contact sport! %-)

408 RTLM  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:19:56pm

I think everyone here should go read the book of Ezekiel: 37-39.

You might find some timely parallels

409 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:19:56pm

re: #399 Dan G.

I'm not allowed to respond, because I'm clearly the bad person here.

410 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:20:39pm

re: #403 Dianna

circumference = pi * diameter.

30 = pi * 10

3 = pi

411 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:20:53pm

re: #388 unixrab

soooo I have to fund, mandatory ... schools that contradict our Bible in the area of Science and Creation. greeeeeeat.. . .. that sux for me huh?

Yep. It certainly sucks to be you.

412 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:03pm

re: #395 Salamantis

Sal: 1 Kings 7:23 ¶ And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

Ten across and thirty around makes pi=3.

Hhmm, using local terms in a culture that doesn't use decimals (or zero?) and accurate to within 1 cubit? sounds like science

413 ornery elephant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:09pm

re: #397 venjanz

Ladies and gent's, Uni is wasting your time, and laughing hysterically behind his keyboard every time you respond to him. The longer and more thought out your response, the harder he laughs.

He might even believe what he says, but it doesn't matter. He's carrying on for his own entertainment.

venjanz,

at this point in time, if "uni" hadn't shown up, I doubt the thread would have hit 100 comments.

414 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:17pm

re: #387 Dan G.

Verrrrry sssslowly. ID is a fraud. Why do you hang on to it. Honest creationists just say creationism. As regards you question. That's fine. You beliefs aren't my problem. You are OK keeping them out of science class. Great. But you look/sound like either a shill or a rube when you endorse ID.

ID is a religious belief, and last I heard, people are allowed to have religious beliefs. Maybe you're into the semantics game, but to me, creationism and ID are the same thing; different packaging, same content.

415 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:32pm

re: #391 abolitionist

It's very short, and it's Ken Ham & creationism in a nutshell.

If ever you find anything more anti-science (besides islam) let me know, ok?

I was just making a little joke. The phrasing...

Ken Ham - Dinosaurs Lived with People (video)

... makes it look like he's got video of people frolicking with dinos.

416 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:45pm

re: #255 slokat

I could read that to you in German, if you'd like.

He pulled no punches & hated the merchants that were not following their own religious rules but taking advantage of the peasants around him.

Heck, in German he sounds alot like at marxist socialist. He was against almost everything that was establishment. (to his credit or not)

But, he reserved even more harsh criticism for his Pope.

Sal: I know all about the 95 theses Martin Luther nailed to the Wittenburg church door. But that didn't encompass all of him, by a longshot.

417 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:49pm

re: #405 Cognito

I don't agree; neither seems to support his contention. But I don't think I'm allowed to comment, as I said above.

418 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:21:52pm

re: #409 Dianna

Why?

419 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:22:32pm

re: #414 Milk Toast Intolerant

Watch the damned NOVA video.

420 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:23:07pm

re: #410 Dan G.

Circumference - well, um...(cautious disagreement - it's been years) but doesn't Pi apply to the radius?

421 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:23:38pm

re: #413 ornery elephant

So?

422 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:23:38pm

re: #256 unixrab

Yes, Sal, it does.. God either formed the race of Man MANUALLY from the dust of the ground of Eden and then breathed his essence into him giving him a soul or we are so-much glorified tadpoles.

(+3billion yars)

Sal: So you find it more romantic that some deity made us directly outta dirt? Umm...I think it's a helluva lot more dignified to have evolved for a couple of billion years in the interim.

423 Metal Man  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:23:39pm

re: #402 Dianna

That was probably a poor analogy just was pointing out I have times when my faith is weak.

424 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:23:44pm

re: #349 unixrab

major spike on the "troll detector".... deliberate misreading of plain english.

/someone spin up the "Clue by Fouratron"......

425 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:23:44pm

re: #420 Dianna

sorry, as I recall, circles always - no matter what - involve Pi. I did stay awake that long!

426 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:23:59pm

re: #420 Dianna

2 * pi * radius = cir.

2 * radius = diameter

Substitution

diameter * pi = cir.

427 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:24:22pm

re: #393 ggt

I think that makes you what is known as a "useful idiot".

Okay, ggt. First insult from you. The thing about this highly volatile subject is that it can quickly turn fellow lizards against each other. Sad to see.

428 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:24:26pm

Night all, have fun, but play nice. (channelling Obiwan --was thinking of him today)

weet dreams.

429 LeePro  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:24:29pm

re: #147 redc1c4

since we are winding 'round a variety of subjects, and it's still early, i'd like to point out that Miguel (of LNDT fame) checked in late last night after a week or so of absence from the frivolity & fruitcup that LNL's revel in during the wee hours.....

it seems he had a "minor" stroke, and is coming along. i'd ask whomever it is that takes care of the Lizard Prayer List to add him & his loved ones to the intentions list, as appropriate, and ask that folks pass along the word as questions are asked.

Yikes!
He's one of my absolute favorite LNDT-ers!
I would email him, but he doesn't keep up with his email very well (self admitted).
Where'd you hear the news?

430 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:24:43pm

re: #410 Dan G.

circumference = pi * diameter.

30 = pi * 10

3 = pi

ahem - circ = 2pi x radius

/ just saying

431 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:25:03pm

re: #410 Dan G.

circumference = pi * diameter.

30 = pi * 10

3 = pi

silly person:
pi R round
cake R square

432 ggt  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:25:47pm

re: #427 Milk Toast Intolerant

just callin' it like I see it.

433 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:26:08pm

re: #396 Dianna

Ah...

Daniel 1:4:

I leave to anyone else's judgment whether these refer to science positively and negatively.

I don't think so, but...well...I expect my opinion to be dismissed.

tut tut tut... you said you'd use my version. pooo pooo..AV why did I stop back by here before BED!? < silly bridget.

434 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:26:26pm

re: #429 LeePro

Yikes!
He's one of my absolute favorite LNDT-ers!
I would email him, but he doesn't keep up with his email very well (self admitted).
Where'd you hear the news?

he poasted late last night..... 0400 or so pac coast time....

/chopped liver?

435 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:26:35pm

re: #430 slokat

Uh associative property. 2 * pi * r = 2 * r * pi.

you fail.

436 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:27:16pm

re: #432 ggt

just callin' it like I see it.

I have never once supported the Discovery Institute's agenda, so how am I being a useful idiot? And you are playing nice like Obiwan said, right?

437 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:27:48pm

re: #417 Dianna

I don't agree; neither seems to support his contention. But I don't think I'm allowed to comment, as I said above.

Don't agree with the conclusion that both references seem to uphold the value of good science?

I think so. The first lists the study of science (assuming the translation is accurate) among traits of excellence. The second urges the addressee to avoid entanglements with 'bad' science -- as opposed to the good.

Regardless, I think Unixrab may have misread them.

438 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:28:14pm

re: #269 Cognito

I am loathe to dip a toe into the whole Creation/Not-Creation discussion, but I am curious: Is it not possible that the very earliest stories in the Bible are metaphorical in the same way the very last ones are?

Sal: I would say so. Take for instance the Beast with Seven Heads and Ten Horns. That beast was Rome. The seven heads stood for Rome's seven hills, and the ten horns stood for the ten legions of the Praetorian Guard. But the Zealots who stuck that stuff in there couldn't say it straight out, or they could be killed and the message suppressed, so they wrote it in a commonly understood code.

439 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:28:39pm

re: #418 Dan G.

Because I'm doubting his accuracy to begin with.

In both cases, there are a series of parallel translations on the site I used. I took the top translation in each case, as I felt it would be most honest to do so.

I'm not a scholar of the Bible or the languages used in its composition, which means I can't actually have much of an opinion on the translations; so I simply picked the top ones. I don't think either quote supports Uni's point, but - I am already on record as skeptical.

So I'm not allowed an opinion.

440 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:29:05pm

re: #439 Dianna

Ok.

441 Cognito  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:29:30pm

re: #433 unixrab

I did use your version.

Any thoughts?

442 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:29:55pm

re: #413 ornery elephant

venjanz,

at this point in time, if "uni" hadn't shown up, I doubt the thread would have hit 100 comments.

sure it would have, but they would either be music video links or boob jokes.

/a definite improvement over religion, IMHO.

443 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:30:30pm

re: #412 slokat

Hhmm, using local terms in a culture that doesn't use decimals (or zero?) and accurate to within 1 cubit? sounds like science

Actually, I'm wondering what the difference is between a circle and a 30-sided polygon inscribed within the same circle. Not enough, but might get rid of .04~~~ of PI, bringing the difference to within one cubit in thirty.

444 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:30:47pm

re: #426 Dan G.

what happens when we apply cubits? As I recall, a cubit is only precise in one person's measure, not generally...

Oh, never mind. I have a feeling I've wandered into a section of geometry and religious speculation that will result in people banging me over the head.

445 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:31:13pm

re: #442 redc1c4

I can do boob jokes and music videos too!

446 Suzette  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:31:51pm

re: #147 redc1c4

since we are winding 'round a variety of subjects, and it's still early, i'd like to point out that Miguel (of LNDT fame) checked in late last night after a week or so of absence from the frivolity & fruitcup that LNL's revel in during the wee hours.....

it seems he had a "minor" stroke, and is coming along. i'd ask whomever it is that takes care of the Lizard Prayer List to add him & his loved ones to the intentions list, as appropriate, and ask that folks pass along the word as questions are asked.

{red}! Just read.....Miguel had a stroke?
Oh my! Hope he is doing okay! Just terrible.
(I'll make sure I say prayers for him}.

447 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:32:01pm

re: #444 Dianna

Was the same man's cubits applied to the diameter as the circumference?

448 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:32:29pm

re: #270 unixrab

the AV - accept no substitutes.

Sal: What about Exodus 22:18 on that site?

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

The word 'witch' is an incorrect translation of the original aramaic, which actually translates as 'poisoner'. It was incorrectly translated the way it was so as to give biblical support to the witchburning that was happening in Europe at the time.

449 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:32:41pm

re: #433 unixrab

I took the top translation from a parallel translations site.

Sorry, it just struck me as most fair.

450 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:33:31pm

really important question: how do i catch her on the rebound?

a guy can dream, can't he?

451 Dan G.  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:34:14pm

Nite all

452 Suzette  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:34:36pm

re: #429 LeePro

Hey {Lee}! Lost your e-mail address when I broke my last laptop,
would you shoot me an e-mail and Miguel's lost his too.....

453 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:34:37pm

re: #275 unixrab

ANYTHING'S possible.. but PROBABLE... no.. look at darwinism. Not probable.

Sal: Actually, considering the empirical evidence, evolutionary theory enjoys a statistical probability so high as to asymptotically approach apodictic certainty.

454 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:35:59pm

re: #437 Cognito

I don't know, I simply don't see it.

I remember from my Latin that "scientia" was "knowledge", not our notion of "science". "Scientia" could also be used for "higher consciousness", if you were being particularly high-falutin, though I'd be careful using it so.

I would never translate it "science" in the modern sense.

Unfortunately, my Greek is pitiful, and I have no Aramaic.

455 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:36:36pm

re: #450 redc1c4

Don't get me started. When I saw "Vacation" as a boy of 8... she will always be my first love.

456 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:38:06pm

re: #447 Dan G.

I couldn't even begin to guess!

And it still doesn't make Pi 3!

457 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:38:22pm

re: #416 Salamantis

I love this, someone that is making my points for me better than I am!

anyhow

I have access to about 17 books in German & 40 in English that dissect every know utterance &/or writing know to man from M. Luther.

...the Pope, bishops, sophist, and monks - these course jackasses have hitherto treated the Jews in such a way that whomever was a good Christian was almost tempted to turn Jew. If I had been a Jew and had seen such boors and brutes control and teach the Christian faith, I would have rather become a sow than a Christian; for Jews were treated as if they were dogs and not human beings..

458 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:39:20pm

re: #448 Salamantis

Um...pythonessa is not "poisoner." "Familiar spirit" and "pythonessa (associated with a snake)" are not - necessarily - "poisoner", though that is an implication.

459 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:39:42pm

re: #294 unixrab

but they want my money to oppose me... and they take it every month! c'mon!

Sal: No, they want every citizen's money in order to, among many other things, provide a public education that every citizen's kids can take advantage of, free from the sectarian religious biases of any of them.

460 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:40:41pm

re: #441 Cognito

I did use your version.

Any thoughts?

none that you'd recognize as such.

461 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:41:20pm

re: #448 Salamantis

Sal: What about Exodus 22:18 on that site?

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

The word 'witch' is an incorrect translation of the original aramaic, which actually translates as 'poisoner'. It was incorrectly translated the way it was so as to give biblical support to the witchburning that was happening in Europe at the time.

eh... Exodus, part of the Pentatuech , the "Law" was written solely in Hebrew. Maybe aramaic says Prisoner i dunno... but "have you got your lions crossed" (Lion King) I know the last exact English translation says "witch" so.. I'll go with that... *** IF **** I was still living before the first advent of Christ (which happened arounnd 5BC) and since it's not that time.. the old laws are done away with... we were given a .... a... "new commandment I give unto you"

that one.

PS: my Marie Calendars Potpie is taking forEVER!1

462 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:41:42pm

re: #301 unixrab

No. God created Adam and Eve. Through their sin... and generations of the effects of sin and (non helpful) mutations... you got moron.

Sal: btw; who exactly were the parents of Adam & Eve's grandchildren?

463 Metal Man  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:42:00pm

re: #459 Salamantis

This education they provide is far from unbiased.

464 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:42:11pm

re: #373 Dianna

Incorrect.

I won't discuss my beliefs, beyond that I have them. I respect religious belief; I do not share every single shred of belief proposed.

This pretty much ends any statement I have to make.

Like the outfit. My hat's a Stetson, maam. regards

465 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:42:25pm

re: #453 Salamantis

Sal: Actually, considering the empirical evidence, evolutionary theory enjoys a statistical probability so high as to asymptotically approach apodictic certainty.

but we can't let little things like that get in the way of beliefs, can we?

/

466 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:43:22pm

re: #415 Cognito

I was just making a little joke. The phrasing...

Ken Ham - Dinosaurs Lived with People (video)

... makes it look like he's got video of people frolicking with dinos.

He probably does. In books, certainly. I had one once, autographed.

467 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:43:23pm

re: #444 Dianna

what happens when we apply cubits? As I recall, a cubit is only precise in one person's measure, not generally...

Oh, never mind. I have a feeling I've wandered into a section of geometry and religious speculation that will result in people banging me over the head.

Actually I never got beat over the head in either class...

But - the passage mentions the height of the observer, I don't have a formula for that - what happens to the equation if you are looking at it from 1 radius above the described circle?

468 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:44:30pm

re: #461 unixrab

You're off your head.

469 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:44:31pm

re: #456 Dianna

I couldn't even begin to guess!

And it still doesn't make Pi 3!

round. use the common rules. 5 == higher

470 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:44:52pm

re: #461 unixrab

Now your cooking a pot-pie? Gimmie a break, man. You have been drinking heavily tonight, eh?

471 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:45:07pm

re: #468 Dianna

true stuff

all hebrew

472 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:45:25pm

So have I, but hey.

473 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:45:38pm

re: #464 Mel Lono

What?

Oh, never mind. It doesn't matter.

474 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:45:47pm

re: #450 redc1c4

really important question: how do i catch her on the rebound?

a guy can dream, can't he?

what is the proper term for "second rebound"?

(especially, if your 2nd ex has a weird internet sex tape?)


/just wondering

475 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:45:57pm

re: #414 Milk Toast Intolerant

ID is a religious belief, and last I heard, people are allowed to have religious beliefs. Maybe you're into the semantics game, but to me, creationism and ID are the same thing; different packaging, same content.

The Discovery Institute has been working very hard to falsely deny what you've just said. I don't think they'll be pleased with the way you have exposed their agenda.

But not to worry, those who defend the secular foundations of this country have been hard at work ensuring that no DI assassins will be hiding under your bed. :)

476 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:46:25pm

re: #470 venjanz

Now your cooking a pot-pie? Gimmie a break, man. You have been drinking heavily tonight, eh?

potpie -== drinking? no.. potpie == hungry... but I might vacation in a place where potpie == drinking.... that would be VRY+INTRESTING

477 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:46:52pm

re: #309 Milk Toast Intolerant

Creationism, Intelligent Design......same thing to me. Bible believing Christians know that, and I forget when DI was appointed spokespeople for creationist/ID proponents.

Sal: The very name 'intelligent design' didn't exist until the Disco Dewdes invented it as a creationism-renaming PR propaganda ploy.

478 Suzette  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:46:52pm

re: #471 unixrab

You discredit yourself by saying Catholic's aren't Christian.
/you are not as wise as you think.

And this is all I shall ever post to you.

479 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:47:13pm

re: #467 slokat

Dunno.

I remember that, while a pie can be divided geometrically into three pieces, Pi still applies, and it's not 3.

480 Dianna  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:49:03pm

5 a.m. is coming for me, and I need to get to bed.

Goodnight, lizards.

481 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:49:27pm

re: #475 Slumbering Behemoth

The Discovery Institute has been working very hard to falsely deny what you've just said. I don't think they'll be pleased with the way you have exposed their agenda.

But not to worry, those who defend the secular foundations of this country have been hard at work ensuring that no DI assassins will be hiding under your bed. :)

It's your right to think I'm a useful idiot, but I would be interested to know why you think that way.

482 nnw59  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:49:40pm

The zeal with which any association with Intelligent Design is excoriated as Dark Age hatred of science or the glee with with to associate it with Islamists this site has embarked on is utterly surprising. Tell me, Charles Johnson, have you ever heard of Francis Collins, Owen Gingrich, Gerald Schroeder, Phillip Johnson, Michael Behe, Rodney Stark, etc, etc. "The lady doth protest too much methinks"--That by the way was a randomly generated series of words formed by chance to refer to someone over-playing a protest. You seem to have a big vested interest in making sure there is no purpose to life. Randomness is not science, sir. How would one go about proving it scientifically? By showing design perhaps?

Matthew Duda

483 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:50:06pm

re: #478 Suzette

You discredit yourself by saying Catholic's aren't Christian.
/you are not as wise as you think.

And this is all I shall ever post to you.

ahhhhhguh I'm not trying to say Catholics don't believe in God or Protestants... it's just as some point in history ... both your "sides" have killed us in the middle! I'm closley related to the Anabaptists... Both Luther and the Pope despised us... (usually means we're right on if both the dominant faiths despise you) anyways..this is just for me an you..... that's why I say... no... "quote" my great teacher Larry wall... "if you're getting shot from both sides... you must be right." OK.... OK.....now shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

484 Milk Toast Intolerant  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:50:25pm

re: #477 Salamantis

Sal: The very name 'intelligent design' didn't exist until the Disco Dewdes invented it as a creationism-renaming PR propaganda ploy.

Yes, I am aware of the name change. That's why I said it's the same thing to me.

485 Suzette  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:50:59pm

re: #480 Dianna

Nite Dianna....sweet dreams. :)

486 redc1c4  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:51:21pm

re: #464 Mel Lono

Like the outfit. My hat's a Stetson, maam. regards

mine is too: Black, with crossed sabers in the front, a yellow acorn cord, and a patina of sweat & dirt i refuse to try & remove.

/Scouts Out!

487 unixrab  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:51:22pm

now bed

488 venjanz  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:51:49pm

re: #476 unixrab

Well, if you haven't been drinking, I return to my original position. You are a magnificent troll. I salute you!

489 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:52:42pm

re: #314 MajorPribluda

Are you fucking insane? I'm taking Salamantis to task for possibly* smearing Christians (all Christians, I would wager) from an ignorant neo-Pagan POV, and you want to get into it about fine differences in Christian sects?

* Not sure, Sal, if that ignorant POV is yours or not. Not calling you ignorant without clarification.

Sal: You had better NOT try that shit, MP! I was a Christian for years before I was a Pagan, and in fact, as a teenaged choir director and lead soprano for a 2000 member Oklahoma City church singing the Christmas Cantata Night of Miracles, we won a superior rating and the state championship as Oral Roberts Universiity. I have also studied comparative religion on a graduate level. I have read the KJV thrice from cover to cover, and referenced it countless times more. Ignorant of Christianity I am not.

490 slokat  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:54:08pm

re: #483 unixrab

... the creator of perl? that Larry Wall?

491 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:55:08pm

re: #316 unixrab

I know this.. I volunteer at a local middle school for early morning bible studies and a few songs. But they still have to go to "science" class and hear how the Bible is stupid and ignorant religious ramblings.. which is not so. It is truth.

Sal: And they have to hear this why and from who? And do your kids walk into science class and tell the teacher every chance they get that God Did It All and evolutionary theory is a crock, and do you coach them to do such a thing?

492 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:56:01pm

re: #289 Slumbering Behemoth

One minor quibble: The people at the Discovery Institute are the ones who coined the term Intelligent Design as a cover to push Creationism into public schools. They not only speak for ID proponents, they are THE major proponents of ID.

It really would be fascinating to see if they're getting money from Harun Yahya.

493 MajorPribluda  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:56:53pm

re: #479 Dianna

Dunno.

I remember that, while a pie can be divided geometrically into three pieces, Pi still applies, and it's not 3.

More to the point, a pie could be divided into six pieces of equal size, and a slight remainder, a skinny little slice which is only 28% the size of one of the other slices. The length of crust about about the rim of any of the six slices would be equal to either of its own straight sides. The 28% piece is famously problematic, and I recommend eating it with Fruitcup.

494 Mel Lono  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:57:46pm

re: #486 redc1c4

mine is too: Black, with crossed sabers in the front, a yellow acorn cord, and a patina of sweat & dirt i refuse to try & remove.

/Scouts Out!

Mine was my Dad's. Looking at it now. Thin,black leather band will silver medallions around. A couple of feathers, needs one more, I think.
7 5/8".. Fits me too.

495 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:57:56pm

re: #320 unixrab

uh.. is that rhetorical? Don't worry.. Sal doesn't like me much... so if you don't either...well.. .someone said "the person that doesn't like me can be allies with the other person that doesn't like me..". or something like that.

Sal: I just don't respect your desire to cram sectarian religious dogmas through the high school science class door, and will fight tooth and nail to prevent such efforts from succeeding - for the sake of our country and our children.

496 Wendya  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:59:17pm

re: #483 unixrab

I'm closley related to the Anabaptists...

Except for that whole Liberty of Conscience thing, right?

From what I recall of the Anabaptists, they weren't defenders of the state taking a religious position.

497 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 10, 2008 11:59:35pm

re: #487 unixrab

now bed

Aw- and just as I was going to ask you if you were a Dominionist.

498 Salem  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:00:05am

re: #147 redc1c4

since we are winding 'round a variety of subjects, and it's still early, i'd like to point out that Miguel (of LNDT fame) checked in late last night after a week or so of absence from the frivolity & fruitcup that LNL's revel in during the wee hours.....

it seems he had a "minor" stroke, and is coming along. i'd ask whomever it is that takes care of the Lizard Prayer List to add him & his loved ones to the intentions list, as appropriate, and ask that folks pass along the word as questions are asked.

Sorry to hear it. I hope he makes a quick recovery.

499 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:01:20am

re: #456 Dianna

I couldn't even begin to guess!

And it still doesn't make Pi 3!

i'll take 1 strawberry, one lemon meringue, and chocolate cream with whipped cream........ with Umpqua Ice Cream.

500 slokat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:01:56am

re: #493 MajorPribluda

Mince Meat or Lemon Merengue ?

501 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:02:07am

re: #488 venjanz

Well, if you haven't been drinking, I return to my original position. You are a magnificent troll. I salute you!

naw..... he's not that good. on Usenet they'd have his guts for garters in a few posts.

502 freetoken  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:02:41am

re: #482 nnw59

If you bother to search through the previous entries on ID you will get a fuller picture.

For some reason I get the idea the throwing up Behe's name is hardly going to mean much to anyone here, except as an indication that you haven't done your research.

503 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:02:51am

re: #329 ornery elephant

Question Sal. Which do you think is a bigger threat to this world - Christianity or islamofascism?

Sal: Islamofascism, of corse. But Christian Fundamentalism remains on my Danger Will Robinson list. As I wrote here, at some length:

[Link: blog.myspace.com...]

504 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:03:03am

re: #481 Milk Toast Intolerant

I neither see the word "useful" nor "idiot" in the post of mine you quoted.

505 wolfie  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:03:44am

re: #436 Milk Toast Intolerant

I have never once supported the Discovery Institute's agenda, so how am I being a useful idiot? And you are playing nice like Obiwan said, right?

You have stated clearly, IMO, that you oppose the teaching of ID/creationism in public schools.

Many posters here repeatedly say they "don't care" what other lizards believe; many even say they "respect" the personal faith of others and do not wish to attack it, as long as no one is in favor of forcing it into the public school curriculum.
You may judge for yourself at how dishonest about that some posters are by their knee-jerk hostility and furious attempts to set you straight.

Who cares if you agree with the significant political point about ID being taught in the schools? Your theology is all wrong! You need salvation! You need the evangelical administrations of the Enlightened!

Don't even bother. And don't take it personally, because it's all about THEM.

(rant off)

506 Student of Objectivism  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:03:56am

Good work Charles

507 LeePro  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:04:15am

re: #434 redc1c4

he poasted late last night..... 0400 or so pac coast time....

/chopped liver?

/chopped liver? NOT!

Thanks! I am emailing him (anyway!).

508 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:04:47am

re: #500 slokat

Mince Meat or Lemon Merengue ?

if it's mince meat, eat it in a bowl with the "Cream Top" milk that Trader Joe's has been selling here in CA.... pasteurized, but not homogenized......

yummy, in a decadent sort of way. (shake before pouring. %-)

509 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:05:04am

re: #336 unixrab

hey! Well I'm glad to let you know.. that both Protestants and Catholics killed us during the reformation.

Sal: And who, exactly, would 'us' be?

510 slokat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:05:08am

unix made a reference to his teacher being the guy that invented Perl...

too pat?

511 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:05:50am

re: #489 Salamantis

Sal: You had better NOT try that shit, MP! I was a Christian for years before I was a Pagan, and in fact, as a teenaged choir director and lead soprano for a 2000 member Oklahoma City church singing the Christmas Cantata Night of Miracles, we won a superior rating and the state championship as Oral Roberts Universiity. I have also studied comparative religion on a graduate level. I have read the KJV thrice from cover to cover, and referenced it countless times more. Ignorant of Christianity I am not.

None of which has the slightest bearing on what I said. Just you try to make the csase that any single one of those nifty resume bullets you have cited somehow innoculates you from idiocy. You sound like Finnagain, trying to bowl me over with his degrees, test scores, teaching awards, and so forth.

You were a teenaged choir director AND lead soprano AND got some big deal award. Yay. I'm just going to assume that you flew off the handle and don't intend to backup the implication that anything you just said should be construed as evidence that you're not full of hooey.

As it is, I'm also going to assume that you haven't yet read my response to your #315, which I cheerfully link here.

Incidentally, which is the shit I had better not try: asking for clarification, waiting for clarification, or expressly not calling you ignorant ("* Not sure, Sal, if that ignorant POV is yours or not. Not calling you ignorant without clarification.") without clarification?

And learn to use the fucking blockquote function.

512 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:06:44am

re: #482 nnw59

I think it's fairly safe to say he most certainly has heard of these people, and I also think it's safe to say you haven't been paying attention.

513 wolfie  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:06:59am

re: #474 slokat

second rebound....?
That's a great question! ricochet ?

514 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:07:13am

re: #341 Milk Toast Intolerant

So the Discovery Institute appointed themselves spokespeople for the creationist/ID crowd, and that automatically means the creationist/ID crowd will support their agenda?

What crowd? Before the Disco dewdes invented the term 'intelligent design', no one called themselves members of that 'crowd'. There wasn't one.

515 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:08:28am

re: #504 Slumbering Behemoth

I neither see the word "useful" nor "idiot" in the post of mine you quoted.

Post #393 by ggt where he/she called me a useful idiot and you dinged it up.

516 Cognito  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:08:31am

re: #454 Dianna

I don't know, I simply don't see it.

I remember from my Latin that "scientia" was "knowledge", not our notion of "science". "Scientia" could also be used for "higher consciousness", if you were being particularly high-falutin, though I'd be careful using it so.

I would never translate it "science" in the modern sense.

Unfortunately, my Greek is pitiful, and I have no Aramaic.

Yes, that's why I left in the caveat, "assuming the translation of the word is correct."

Regardless of whether they were speaking of science as a matter of experiments with controls and variables, etc etc etc., or the pursuit of knowledge, the two seem to be of one nature, to me. What I take away from those two verses is a value, in the Bible, placed on honest pursuit of knowledge.

517 slokat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:09:31am

re: #508 redc1c4

I thought I was the only person in the world that still actually ate mincemeat pie (preferably venison)!

It would work with creme fraiche, also.

518 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:10:31am

re: #514 Salamantis

What crowd? Before the Disco dewdes invented the term 'intelligent design', no one called themselves members of that 'crowd'. There wasn't one.

Crowd....group....those who believed in a biblical account of the origin of life. You're splitting hairs?

519 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:11:09am

re: #507 LeePro

/chopped liver? NOT!

Thanks! I am emailing him (anyway!).

but i've got a nice big, well exercised, liver.......

/you'd be chopping for awhile. (pate foie red, as it were.... %-)

520 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:11:37am

re: #509 Salamantis

Sal: And who, exactly, would 'us' be?

village idiots?

/safe guess %-)

521 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:12:37am

re: #342 ornery elephant

Is a pagan different than an atheist?

Sal: Yes; pagans believe in various and sundry gods and goddesses; just not the deities of patriarchal monotheism. The ancient egyptians were pagans (Ra, Isis, Osiris, etc.), as were the greeks and romans (the varous pantheons under Zeus and Jupiter) and the norse (the Odin pantheon). The Hindus are pagans, as are native north and south americans, the australian aborigines, and many african and asian tribes, among others.

522 LeePro  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:14:15am

re: #452 Suzette

Hey {Lee}! Lost your e-mail address when I broke my last laptop,
would you shoot me an e-mail and Miguel's lost his too.....

Done!
How are you, {Suzette}?

523 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:14:28am

re: #518 Milk Toast Intolerant

Crowd....group....those who believed in a biblical account of the origin of life. You're splitting hairs?

careful! next you'll be splitting cells, then genes, then you'll be on the slippery slope to evolution and hell.

/i'll be at the bar, watching it all on the big screen, & cheering for entropy.

524 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:15:09am

re: #505 wolfie

You have stated clearly, IMO, that you oppose the teaching of ID/creationism in public schools.

Many posters here repeatedly say they "don't care" what other lizards believe; many even say they "respect" the personal faith of others and do not wish to attack it, as long as no one is in favor of forcing it into the public school curriculum.
You may judge for yourself at how dishonest about that some posters are by their knee-jerk hostility and furious attempts to set you straight.

Who cares if you agree with the significant political point about ID being taught in the schools? Your theology is all wrong! You need salvation! You need the evangelical administrations of the Enlightened!

Don't even bother. And don't take it personally, because it's all about THEM.

(rant off)

I have noticed. For there to be a meaningful debate/discussion, both sides have to remain calm and civilized, but that hasn't happened since there are some hotheads from both sides who "must" alleviate their frustration by resorting to attacking fellow lizards with ad hominems. I don't lose any sleep over it but it's sad to see.

525 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:15:29am

re: #343 unixrab

no no.. anointed men! "of many worthy men who went before us, there should be one more exact Translation of the holy Scriptures into the English Tongue

Sal: Yeah; how conVEEEENient that the translators should so praise their own work. Sounds just like the claim that the Bible is infallible because it says it is.

526 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:15:55am

re: #294 unixrab

but they want my money to oppose me... and they take it every month! c'mon!

Sleepy B- I know last night you wondered if this one was a moby, but I'm starting to suspect this one is a separatist.

527 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:15:58am

re: #517 slokat

I thought I was the only person in the world that still actually ate mincemeat pie (preferably venison)!

It would work with creme fraiche, also.

hmmmm.... i've got the rifles, you live where there are deer.

/can we w*rk a deal?

528 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:16:21am

re: #523 redc1c4

careful! next you'll be splitting cells, then genes, then you'll be on the slippery slope to evolution and hell.

/i'll be at the bar, watching it all on the big screen, & cheering for entropy.

I'll have you know I split cells daily, thank you very much.

529 Suzette  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:17:17am

re: #522 LeePro

I'm doing all right {Lee} and you?

530 Da_Beerfreak  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:17:48am

Looks like the Friday Night Drink & Food Fight Thread™ is off to a early start this week.

-= DRINK =-

531 slokat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:18:10am

Sure, but there is currently heavy smoke & ash falling all about.

...gives them a sporting chance?

532 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:18:23am

re: #526 Sharmuta

Sleepy B- I know last night you wondered if this one was a moby, but I'm starting to suspect this one is a separatist.

i'm voting for garden variety trouble maker/troll..... it's a familar MO, and i'm unimpressed. it's very 1998 in style.

/won't stop me from whacking on it though.

533 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:18:57am

re: #528 Milk Toast Intolerant

I'll have you know I split cells daily, thank you very much.

don't we all? %-)

534 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:19:06am

re: #523 redc1c4

careful! next you'll be splitting cells, then genes, then you'll be on the slippery slope to evolution and hell.

/i'll be at the bar, watching it all on the big screen, & cheering for entropy.

Not if he gets to splitting atoms first.

535 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:20:03am

re: #532 redc1c4

He's a literalist who just wants what's best for you and yours, even if you're not interested.

536 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:20:31am

re: #526 Sharmuta

Sleepy B- I know last night you wondered if this one was a moby, but I'm starting to suspect this one is a separatist.

I think this one is a loon. Or just very young and hasn't really thought through the implications of many of his positions.

537 LeePro  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:22:20am

re: #457 slokat

I love this, someone that is making my points for me better than I am!

anyhow

I have access to about 17 books in German & 40 in English that dissect every know utterance &/or writing know to man from M. Luther.

...the Pope, bishops, sophist, and monks - these course jackasses have hitherto treated the Jews in such a way that whomever was a good Christian was almost tempted to turn Jew. If I had been a Jew and had seen such boors and brutes control and teach the Christian faith, I would have rather become a sow than a Christian; for Jews were treated as if they were dogs and not human beings..

Oh, my! I certainly hope that whomever you have quoted there, is not considered a learned scholar. S/he has improperly used "whomever" in the objective case in a nominative-case-position in the sentence!

/nit-pick

538 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:22:55am

re: #360 MajorPribluda

Okay, fair enough. So long as you are making a general statement about people being led by the abuse of one ideology in the service of another, we agree. But I balk at the claim that Hitler and "the Christians" (be they Catholic in this source, or Protestant in that) were in cahoots, and that this is somehow a shameful chapter for Christianity as a whole. And I think you will agree that this POV is popular with many (I am not claiming a majority) of Pagans.

Sal: It is a shameful chapter for German Christianity, because they aided and assisted in the perpetration of a massive atrocity. The person who wrote the meticulously documented book Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust was not a pagan, but a Jew, Daniel Jonah Goldhagen. And the Glimpses site that I posted a link to is a well-respected Christian site. They have much more than that sordid bit of history there.

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

539 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:23:04am

re: #530 Da_Beerfreak

Looks like the Friday Night Drink & Food Fight Thread™ is off to a early start this week.

-= DRINK =-

you're just *now* getting started?

let me help you:
"Change!"
"Change!"
"Change!"

My Advice

540 wolfie  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:25:59am

re: #537 LeePro

The benefits of those four years of Latin never cease!

541 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:26:11am

re: #536 MajorPribluda

I think you should go back and read what it was saying last night.

542 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:26:18am

re: #537 LeePro

Oh, my! I certainly hope that whomever you have quoted there, is not considered a learned scholar. S/he has improperly used "whomever" in the objective case in a nominative-case-position in the sentence!

/nit-pick

but are y'all allowing for usage shift over the years?

/white smoke

543 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:27:40am

re: #541 Sharmuta

I think you should go back and read what it was saying last night.

i think it's an idiot, and i'll only read it if i need to get some exercise.

call it a Darwinian process, if you will. %-)

544 wolfie  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:28:01am

Yipes! The clock moveth & the eyes droop.
Goodnight all!

If Miguel checks in later, tell him my prayers are w/ him.

545 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:29:08am

re: #377 unixrab

I should have the ability to send my property tax money to a school that supports me and my family's beliefs AS should the Buddhists. and Wiccans.

Sal: No, as a citzen of this country, you have responsibilities and obligations that are correlative with your liberties and rights. You can practice whatever faith you choose, live where you will, select your own vocation, not have to defend your home against foreign powers, drive on interstates, and so much more. Helping to provide for the education of our youth, so that our country remains educated and strong, is a small price to pay for what you get. You don't like it, then move to where you think you can get a better deal.

546 freetoken  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:31:43am

From the "Science" sidebar - the next 8 new "natural wonders" have been selected:

Eight New Natural Wonders Named

Among the eight selected is the Joggins Fossil Cliffs entry. Looks like it would be a fascinating place to visit.

Of course, there are those who think Joggins Fossil Cliffs are a problem for those evolutionists.

547 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:32:39am

re: #388 unixrab

soooo I have to fund, mandatory ... schools that contradict our Bible in the area of Science and Creation. greeeeeeat.. . .. that sux for me huh?

Sal: You have to fund public high schools that teach science in science class. If you think that sux, the problem could be with you instead of the schools.

548 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:33:10am

re: #541 Sharmuta

I think you should go back and read what it was saying last night.

Oh, sorry. Wasn't around last night. What did I miss? On the DT?

549 slokat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:35:35am

re: #537 LeePro

translation from german to english... quote is from Luther.

550 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:37:21am

re: #403 Dianna

If it's a circle, no it doesn't.

I remember that much geometry!

Sal: but dividing the 30 around that the Bible says by the 10 across that the Bible says gets you three. Not 3.14; three. Which is why I say it's wrong.

Juast sayin'.

551 Suzette  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:38:17am

Nite Lizards! Sweet dreams! :)

552 LeePro  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:38:41am

re: #529 Suzette

I'm doing all right {Lee} and you?

Well as can be. My "oral excavation" is scheduled for this coming Wednesday. Skeered to death!

553 Suzette  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:40:00am

re: #552 LeePro


I'll keep you in my prayers.....good luck with...hopefully it will not be as bad as you may fear! :)

554 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:40:05am

re: #515 Milk Toast Intolerant

Post #393 by ggt where he/she called me a useful idiot and you dinged it up.

That is not the post you were responding to, by quoting this from me:

re: #475 Slumbering Behemoth


The Discovery Institute has been working very hard to falsely deny what you've just said. I don't think they'll be pleased with the way you have exposed their agenda.

But not to worry, those who defend the secular foundations of this country have been hard at work ensuring that no DI assassins will be hiding under your bed. :)

Which was a reply to your post here:

re: #414 Milk Toast Intolerant

ID is a religious belief, and last I heard, people are allowed to have religious beliefs. Maybe you're into the semantics game, but to me, creationism and ID are the same thing; different packaging, same content.

With all that in mind, perhaps I should retract my up-ding on ggt's #393, as the Discovery Institute would most likely classify you as a "useless idiot" for not towing the "ID is not Creationism" party line.

/don't feel bad, they would certainly say the same of me

555 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:41:24am

re: #412 slokat

re: #395 Salamantis

Sal: 1 Kings 7:23 ¶ And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

Ten across and thirty around makes pi=3.

Hhmm, using local terms in a culture that doesn't use decimals (or zero?) and accurate to within 1 cubit? sounds like science

Sal2: since pi is 3.14159...and not three even, it sounds like bad science - or at least, bad measurement. The round about compass should have been roughly 31 1/2 cubits. Or the brim to brim measurement should have been smaller.

556 jenv  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:43:24am

re: #10 Wyatt Earp

He "awaits Christ?" I wonder how well that'll go over in Turkey and the surrounding areas?


Of course he "awaits Christ". In Islamic eschatology, Isa (Jesus) heralds the End Times, and will slay the unbelievers and cast their souls down to hell to redeem the souls of Muslims (bring them out of hell). It's pure doublespeak, he knows that's not the meaning Christians will hear.

557 RTLM  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:45:17am

re: #544 wolfie Yes, a very good recovery for Miguel.

558 pat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:46:15am

I am well aware of this Islamic nutcase, being the Islamic world's savior( to some ignorant liberals), who in real life is a fucking nut. The idea that he is a creationist in the Biblical sense is BS. False Flag. Bail out.

559 freetoken  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:48:08am

re: #558 pat

I am well aware of this Islamic nutcase, being the Islamic world's savior( to some ignorant liberals), who in real life is a fucking nut. The idea that he is a creationist in the Biblical sense is BS. False Flag. Bail out.

Regardless of whether you believe Oktar is religiously legitimate or not, he surely is making a splash, and getting attention from other creationists.

560 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:49:18am

re: #526 Sharmuta

Sleepy B- I know last night you wondered if this one was a moby, but I'm starting to suspect this one is a separatist.

A separatist, perhaps of the secessionist variety? Not something I would have picked up, but I defer to your wisdom on the matter as your BS detector is more finely tuned than mine.

You may be onto something.

561 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:51:52am

re: #552 LeePro

Well as can be. My "oral excavation" is scheduled for this coming Wednesday. Skeered to death!

have you had a pain management consult? with proper care, you can be kept out of pain and out of over sedation at the same time.

if ytour dentist/oral surgeon hasn't talked to you at tlenght about this, they should have, even to the point of involving a pharmacist or anesthesiologist, or both, depending on what you're having done.

given the level of trepidation i sense in your postings, i think someone in your chain of care is doing you a disservice, and i'd address it before i went forward with the operation. according to JCAHO, pain is the "fifth vital sign", and avoiding it is therefore a *good* thing......

talk to your people again, and demand your rights. don't fall for the "we've always done it this way" or any other bullshit like that.

it's your body and you have a right to informed consent, not just "this is what we're gonna do".

/"lay back and take it went out years ago."

562 pat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:52:09am

Nonsense. The ID movement is entirely western oriented. Islam does not believe in evolution, the ID movement incorporates it. As for Creationism, all religions have this in common. No one needs an Islamic Idiot to share his view of Djinns, Devils, and Jews.

563 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:52:27am

I can see how the Discovery Institute's agenda to push Intelligent Design into the science class room will yield a backlash against Christians. Already, I've seen some lizards in previous threads equating Christians with the Taliban, jihadis, and Nazis. That's just depressing.

564 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:53:38am

re: #463 Metal Man

This education they provide is far from unbiased.

Sal: But it shouldn't have your religious biases, or mine, shoehorned in. People are like fish and their religion is like the water in which they swim. from there perspective, nothing is distorted and everything is clear, but when you're outside the water, you try to spear the fish by aiming straight at it and you'll miss every time.

565 GregInSeattle  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:53:56am

I wish Charles wouldn't focus on creationism.

566 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:54:34am

re: #563 Milk Toast Intolerant

I can see how the Discovery Institute's agenda to push Intelligent Design into the science class room will yield a backlash against Christians. Already, I've seen some lizards in previous threads equating Christians with the Taliban, jihadis, and Nazis. That's just depressing.

or maybe your eyes are bad?

567 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:55:12am

re: #565 GregInSeattle

I wish Charles wouldn't focus on creationism.

he doesn't: he focuses on truth.

/that's hard for some people

568 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:55:37am

re: #467 slokat

Actually I never got beat over the head in either class...

But - the passage mentions the height of the observer, I don't have a formula for that - what happens to the equation if you are looking at it from 1 radius above the described circle?

Sal: Nothing happens to it. Physical distance is physical distance, around or across, reegardless of any POV.

569 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:55:39am

re: #566 redc1c4

How so?

570 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:57:19am

re: #565 GregInSeattle

I think he should focus on whatever he wants.

571 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:58:08am

re: #562 pat

the ID movement incorporates it.

No- they don't. You need to go back and do a little more homework, pat.

572 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:58:18am

re: #569 Milk Toast Intolerant

How so?

because you can't see shades?

573 pat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:58:30am

Nite all. I must think.

574 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 12:59:54am

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

575 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:00:25am

re: #572 redc1c4

because you can't see shades?

Shades? Please explain.

576 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:02:20am

re: #560 Slumbering Behemoth

He seems quite upset his taxes are going to things he doesn't support.

577 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:06:07am

re: #482 nnw59

The zeal with which any association with Intelligent Design is excoriated as Dark Age hatred of science or the glee with with to associate it with Islamists this site has embarked on is utterly surprising. Tell me, Charles Johnson, have you ever heard of Francis Collins, Owen Gingrich, Gerald Schroeder, Phillip Johnson, Michael Behe, Rodney Stark, etc, etc. "The lady doth protest too much methinks"--That by the way was a randomly generated series of words formed by chance to refer to someone over-playing a protest. You seem to have a big vested interest in making sure there is no purpose to life. Randomness is not science, sir. How would one go about proving it scientifically? By showing design perhaps?

Matthew Duda


Sal: The moment you bring up Disco Dewdes like Philip Johnson (who authored the leaked Wedge Document), Gerald Schroeder and Michael Behe (who has long been one of their leading shills), your agenda was obvious. Francis Collins, btw, accepts evolutionary theory.
The only vested interest that Charles has is to expose idiotarians of all stripes, including those who would cram sectarian religious dogmas into public high school science classes. And evolutionary theory involves both randomneess (mutation) and nonrandomness (environmental selection). And you support (not absolutely prove) anything in science by experiment and investigation, and obtaining empirical evidence. For you to even use the word 'prove' in connection with science shows me that your mastery of scientific philosophy, methodology and terminology is profoundly flawed at best. Methinks you have a dozen threads to read before you can speak on this topic in a manner that is approaching the informedness of most posters here.

578 pat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:11:39am

Sort of as we used to think.
[Link: www.newsdaily.com...]
Empathy comes naturally to children

I like it. You see! All those little hugs are for real.
Later

579 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:14:13am

re: #575 Milk Toast Intolerant

Shades? Please explain.

you lack a basic understanding of logical progression, and are evidently deficient in critical thinking, as well as in basic reading for comprehension, not to mention that your vocabulary is obviously less than optimal.

when you rectify these shortcomings, i'll be glad to continue this discussion. hope this finds you well and have a nice day.

580 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:15:27am

re: #576 Sharmuta

He seems quite upset his taxes are going to things he doesn't support.

i think it's more because no one is making sure he takes his meds.....

/not a cynic %-)

581 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:20:01am

re: #562 pat

Islam does not believe in evolution, the ID movement incorporates it.

No, it does not. It attempts to poke holes in an established, scientific theory with strawman arguments and baseless conjecture. They do so with the objective of tearing down science and reason by pushing a false dichotomy.

ID does not promote a competing theory to evolution, nor does it incorporate the theory of evolution. It sits outside of science, throwing barbs and jabs at one particular piece of scientific theory, as a smarmy child (or a leftist) might attempt to pick apart the wisdom of its elders with false, foolish analogies. And while doing so, it arrogantly declares its divisive gambit to be "science".

582 LeePro  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:20:01am

re: #561 redc1c4

have you had a pain management consult? with proper care, you can be kept out of pain and out of over sedation at the same time.

if ytour dentist/oral surgeon hasn't talked to you at tlenght about this, they should have, even to the point of involving a pharmacist or anesthesiologist, or both, depending on what you're having done.

given the level of trepidation i sense in your postings, i think someone in your chain of care is doing you a disservice, and i'd address it before i went forward with the operation. according to JCAHO, pain is the "fifth vital sign", and avoiding it is therefore a *good* thing......

talk to your people again, and demand your rights. don't fall for the "we've always done it this way" or any other bullshit like that.

it's your body and you have a right to informed consent, not just "this is what we're gonna do".

/"lay back and take it went out years ago."

I appreciate your concern, but my "level of trepidation" is based not on what sounds like a presumed level of stupidity. I have had multiple surgeries over my glorious 66 years — they've taken more stuff outa me than they've allowed me to keep! If they take any more, I'm going to flat out disappear! My son, too (age 40), has had many surgeries. I daresay that I have spent a good deal more time in hospitals and OR's than you have been a grownup. I assure you that I know what I am doing, what to ask for or demand, what to expect.

All of my surgeries, however, have been internal and therefore invisible, except for the scars. This one involves the removal of 11 precious parts of me that people can see, and with which I nourish myself, and which defines the shape of my face and my smile. I am not afraid of the procedure or of the pain. I am afraid of the consequences!

Sorry for the rant. I really do appreciate your concern.

IOW, watch it next week, red, or I'll take my teeth out and give you a big *smooch*!

583 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:23:13am

re: #558 pat

He (Yahya) does NOT claim to be the al-Qaim or the al-Mehdi. He awaits them.

Yahya DOES, however, support the ID-Creationists in their efforts in America and Europe. That is the thrust of the article above. HE may not be a 'Biblical Creationist' but he sure as shootin' sends money to the creationists pushing ID, Pat...

584 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:23:48am

re: #582 LeePro


I hope your surgery goes well.

585 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:24:18am

re: #576 Sharmuta

He seems quite upset his taxes are going to things he doesn't support.

Good point. Again, your BS detector is more finely tuned than mine.

That is a recurring theme that I failed to catch.

586 zombie  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:25:14am

Wow, I can't believe there is a thread about this topic! Sorry I missed it.

In the Olden Dayes of LGF (2005-ish), on the rare evolution-argument thread, I used to bring up the Harun Yahya movement frequently -- as far as I know, no one in the blogosphere knew about them yet. And whenever I did so, many commenters back then went ballistic. So angered were they by my implication that American creationists were unwittingly opening the door to Islamic creationism being taught in US schools, that I simply stopped mentioning Harun Yahya for years. Only recently have I dared to re-broach the topic. I'm very glad now that it's out in the open. I consider myself the Cassandra of Harun Yayha.

People in the US just have no idea how big and powerful the Islamic creationism movement really is in the rest of the world. As was linked here a few days ago, the only country that has a lower belief in evolution than the US is...Turkey, where Harun Yahya is strongest. Since their indoctrination is not happening much yet here, it's not on our radar screen. But believe you me, when and if "intelligent design" or whatever euphemism it's called by gets the OK to be taught in any public school in the US, CAIR and the ACLU and all the grievance theater groups will team up with Harun Yahya to get equal time in the classroom. And there will be no way to argue against them, because to do so would be tacit admission that there is a specific religious orientation (i.e. Christian) to the existing "intelligent design" curriculum. Harun Yahya and their helpers will properly say, "Well, if you can teach your version of creationism, then by all rights we ought to be allowed to teach our version."

Of course, neither version should be taught at all, but the unintended consequence of having Islamic indoctrination in our public schools should give any "intelligent design" advocate serious pause.

587 Milk Toast Intolerant  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:25:27am

re: #579 redc1c4

you lack a basic understanding of logical progression, and are evidently deficient in critical thinking, as well as in basic reading for comprehension, not to mention that your vocabulary is obviously less than optimal.

when you rectify these shortcomings, i'll be glad to continue this discussion. hope this finds you well and have a nice day.

Wow. Such elitist condescension. Rather than clarify and educate, you prefer ridicule and embrace patronization. That's a pretty high horse you're sitting on there. I'm blessed to have intellectual superiors like you to enlighten dumb, old me.

588 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:25:34am

re: #511 MajorPribluda

None of which has the slightest bearing on what I said. Just you try to make the case that any single one of those nifty resume bullets you have cited somehow innoculates you from idiocy. You sound like Finnagain, trying to bowl me over with his degrees, test scores, teaching awards, and so forth.

Sal: Snd of course you proffer nothing of the sort, because, after all, you don't need any credentials; you're the fucking MAJOR! yeah, right, sure...that and four bucks will by you a latte at Starbucks. I spent chunks of my life learning what I know; you spent seconds at a keyboard to make yourself a complete and utter ass. Maybe that's why you haven't advertised any credentials; you lacked the cognitive prerequsites to obtain them.

You were a teenaged choir director AND lead soprano AND got some big deal award. Yay. I'm just going to assume that you flew off the handle and don't intend to backup the implication that anything you just said should be construed as evidence that you're not full of hooey.

Sal: Wondrous night of miracles
Glorious night of miracles
The stars are brilliantly unfurled
Christ the long awaited King
Now is born and Angels sing
Be blest you weary worn and wandering world...

I still remember chunks of the damn thing.

How's that for fucking backup, Ace?

But you've got nothing whatsoever, because you never contribute jack shit. You're just a fucking parasite, sniping at everybody else, without offering a goddamned thing of your own, because you're scared shitless of being the bitee, and deep down inside, you know that you've got nothing of your own worth giving.

As it is, I'm also going to assume that you haven't yet read my response to your #315, which I cheerfully link here.

Sal: I answered it when I got to it. I do these things chronologically. by the numbers, as I get to them working down from the top. And I don't break that system to please the likes of you.

Incidentally, which is the shit I had better not try: asking for clarification, waiting for clarification, or expressly not calling you ignorant ("* Not sure, Sal, if that ignorant POV is yours or not. Not calling you ignorant without clarification.") without clarification?

Sal: Even considering contemplating accusing me of shit like that is what you'd better not try, because some people do not suffer malevolent fools gladly, but I have a hard time suffering them at all.

And learn to use the fucking blockquote function.

Sal: I intersperse my replies within the text of the message to which I'm replying, so that there can be no mistake to which each graph is replying. And I label each graph with a bit of my nick, so people willl know it's mine. That's just the way I roll, and others don't mind it - at least they didn't last night when you brought the same damn thing up. So deal with it. Or not, as the case may be. I could care less. But it would be really hard.

589 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:27:09am

re: #581 Slumbering Behemoth

And, it wants ID (centered on an Intelligent Design & Intelligent Designer) to be taught IN SCIENCE CLASSES as if it were science...

THAT's the UNACCEPTABLE part of this all.

590 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:28:03am

re: #518 Milk Toast Intolerant

Crowd....group....those who believed in a biblical account of the origin of life. You're splitting hairs?

Sal: I'm saying that whatever they believed, none of them used that name for themselves until after Disco invented it.

591 LeePro  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:28:12am

re: #584 MajorPribluda

I hope your surgery goes well.

Thank you!

And I've gone past my usual bedtime.

G'nite, {Beloved Lizards}!

592 zombie  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:30:48am
Unknown outside Muslim circles two years ago, Adnan Oktar — the 52-year-old Turk behind the pseudonym Harun Yahya — caught the attention of scientists and teachers in Europe and North America by mass-mailing them his 768-page “Atlas of Creation”

Unknown until two years ago? Hell, I was commenting about Harun Yahya here at least as early as 2005:

#116 zombie 11/11/2005 8:06:28 am PST

Might I add that Pat Robertson has great company:

There are Muslim fundamentalist groups like Harun Yahya that also believe in creationism and attack Darwin, but they criticize the Intelligent Design folks for being dishonest in their faux denial that the designer was God -- or in this case, Allah.

Under the coming shari'a, we will undoubtedly get Islamic creationism taught in our schools, with Allah as creator.

That's bad, but to be frank it's not much worse than what Pat Robertson wants.

I guess I was ahead of the curve.

593 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:31:40am

re: #582 LeePro

Wow, I missed this whole line of discussion.

This one involves the removal of 11 precious parts of me that people can see, and with which I nourish myself, and which defines the shape of my face and my smile. I am not afraid of the procedure or of the pain. I am afraid of the consequences!

I'll still like you, LeePro, no matter what your mug looks like.

IOW, watch it next week, red, or I'll take my teeth out and give you a big *smooch*!

Bah! No fair, I called first dibs!

Seriously, though, good luck with the upcoming surgery.

594 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:32:49am

re: #592 zombie

Good job. Didn't Killgore mention you were working on a report about this? I hope you complete it- there are some who really need this driven home.

595 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:32:55am

re: #588 Salamantis

The 'interspersed addressing' is called "Fisking"...

You were 'Fisking' Pribluda's comments. Its an accepted, well-known term here, Sal, named after the leftist hack Robert Fisk, on whom the process was done hundreds of times... :D

596 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:33:06am

re: #582 LeePro

I appreciate your concern, but my "level of trepidation" is based not on what sounds like a presumed level of stupidity. I have had multiple surgeries over my glorious 66 years — they've taken more stuff outa me than they've allowed me to keep! If they take any more, I'm going to flat out disappear! My son, too (age 40), has had many surgeries. I daresay that I have spent a good deal more time in hospitals and OR's than you have been a grownup. I assure you that I know what I am doing, what to ask for or demand, what to expect.

All of my surgeries, however, have been internal and therefore invisible, except for the scars. This one involves the removal of 11 precious parts of me that people can see, and with which I nourish myself, and which defines the shape of my face and my smile. I am not afraid of the procedure or of the pain. I am afraid of the consequences!

Sorry for the rant. I really do appreciate your concern.

IOW, watch it next week, red, or I'll take my teeth out and give you a big *smooch*!

sorry if you thought i implied "stupidity", as that was farthest from my mind. you have never struck me as such, and being a Southern Belle, it would be most unlikely for you to be so. as someone who's w*rked day to day in OR's etc, lets agree to disagree on the contact time and focus on your level of care (not trying to be condescending)

i was only concerned that you might not have been adequately briefed on the various pain management options available to you, and that you had been able to make an informed consent based upon that knowledge.

if you have a good knowledge of *all* your options, that's one thing.
if all know is what the quack wants you to know, that's another. i was trying to ensure the first.

your life, your body, i'll butt out.

/definitely *not* trying to practice medicine

597 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:35:09am

re: #585 Slumbering Behemoth

Good point. Again, your BS detector is more finely tuned than mine.

That is a recurring theme that I failed to catch.

i vote "troll"... based upon years of Usenet time.

he fits the profile of a "lame troll": just stupid enough that people will excuse him as just being dense or difficult.

598 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:35:18am

re: #594 Sharmuta

Good job. Didn't Killgore mention you were working on a report about this? I hope you complete it- there are some who really need this driven home.

I SECOND that emotion!

Make it a PDF so we can share and proselytize, Zomboid One...

599 zombie  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:36:21am

Here's an even earlier comment I made about them -- as far as I can tell, the first time Harun Yahya was ever mentioned on LGF, or any other mainstream blog:

The group/person that's behind it is called Harun Yahya, a pseudonym for a Turkish Muslim lunatic. So where's the controversy? The movement that he founded are the main promulgators of the Muslim version of creationism, or intelligent design. If I remember correctly, discussing Harun Yahya brought accusations of drawing an equivalency between Muslim fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists, so the topic was dropped like a hot potato. Harun Yahya is very strongly anti-evolution and anti-communist (in addition to being anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists), so that some of their writings were indistinguishable from certain creationist texts in the US. Too upsetting for some people.

By the way, I once (in my most undercover zombie exploit ever) infiltrated a Harun Yahya meeting held in [location deleted], but due to security concerns never made a zombie report out of it.

I'm still traumatized by my visit to a Harun Yahya seminar, three years after the fact. I came this close to being outed, in a very hostile environment. One of the very few times I was afraid for my life.

600 zombie  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:37:17am

re: #594 Sharmuta

Good job. Didn't Killgore mention you were working on a report about this? I hope you complete it- there are some who really need this driven home.

The report has been permanently shelved. For serious security reasons, I feel it can't be published.

601 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:37:20am

re: #562 pat

Nonsense. The ID movement is entirely western oriented. Islam does not believe in evolution, the ID movement incorporates it. As for Creationism, all religions have this in common. No one needs an Islamic Idiot to share his view of Djinns, Devils, and Jews.

Sal: then you have some 'splainin' to do, like why several Christian Creationist and IDsites are linking to Harun...

602 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:38:45am

re: #565 GregInSeattle

I wish Charles wouldn't focus on creationism.

Sal: It's Charles' blog; he'll focus on any idiotarians he wants to.

603 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:42:38am

re: #586 zombie

But believe you me, when and if "intelligent design" or whatever euphemism it's called by gets the OK to be taught in any public school in the US, CAIR and the ACLU and all the grievance theater groups will team up with Harun Yahya to get equal time in the classroom. And there will be no way to argue against them, because to do so would be tacit admission that there is a specific religious orientation (i.e. Christian) to the existing "intelligent design" curriculum. Harun Yahya and their helpers will properly say, "Well, if you can teach your version of creationism, then by all rights we ought to be allowed to teach our version."

Of course, neither version should be taught at all, but the unintended consequence of having Islamic indoctrination in our public schools should give any "intelligent design" advocate serious pause.

Zackly! Hope nobody minds if I repeat and expand my #27 here:

If I were Jihadi megabucks seeking to wedge Sharia into American law, I would certainly start "greasing the wedge", by using somebody else's ideology as a stalking horse* for my own. This does not reflect upon the existing ID movement (which is already wrong and not at all science, yet certainly not Jihadi by any stretch), but it uses a more palatable ideology to drive the same legal mechanism.

So while I would not claim that ID folks are Jihadi, there most definitely a Jihadi threat hidden within ID.

Please note that I do not equate any of the terms herein with Creationism, which to me is theology, and threatens exactly nobody. Once it strays into ID however, then it is politics and pseudo-science.

*I think I'm using this correctly, if in an inverted sense.

604 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:47:15am

re: #603 MajorPribluda

So while I would not claim that ID folks are Jihadi, there most definitely a Jihadi threat hidden within ID.

Anyone denying this is not paying attention.

605 RTLM  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:48:32am

re: #592 zombie

Heh - Bill Whittle (heavy) weighed in on that thread:

#320 Bill Whittle 11/11/05 9:08:58 am reply quote 0

Well, as one of Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus' leading seculartards and therefor morally equivelent to Hitler, I can assure you, as someone who has been paid on occasion to perform science, that evolution is to biology what Big Bang theory is to cosmology, what Continental Drift is to geology, and what Quantum theory is to nuclear physics -- namely the consistent, essential underpinning without which there would be no science.

I have heard more distortions of evolution than I have of Islamicism, and that is saying something.

The question fundamentalists should be asking is not whether or not evolution or the Big Bang is "true" or not -- they are MANIFESTLY consistent with the way the world is built, and I can assure you I have read and dismembered many "opposing scientific views," which are in fact NOTHING like science. The question fundamentalists need to ask themselves is why God would build a world that so constantly and consistently provides routinely testable evidence -- on every level -- that these key theories are in fact correct, and without which the entire disciplines of Biology, Geology, Cosmology and Nuclear physics completely fall apart.

If I were to take a job as an electrician or a fireman without any knowledge of the job I don't think I would survive very long, not would I deserve to. As someone who has been a scientist, I CAN ASSURE YOU that these "gaping holes" in Evolutionary theory are the products of the same fertile, wishful-thinking minds that gave us "Fitzmas."

One may not like some of the positions taken by atheists and secularists, and frankly, I don't either, although I am one of them. But for Pat Robertson to imply that earthquakes, locusts and rivers of blood are coming to any school district that has the audacity to teach evolution as fact is a shocking and disgraceful indictment of just how poorly science is being taught in this country, and is no different whatsoever that watching a witch doctor claim the Volcano God will destroy us all if we do not make the human sacrificies he calls for. It's disgusting. It's embarrassing. It has the remarkably rare quality of making me ashamed to be an American.

Having this discussion via printed pamphlets and papyrus scrolls is one thing. Having it on computers on the internet is something else again. The same core theories and technologies that allow this electronic conversation ROTINELY -- and by that I mean many hundreds of thousands of times a day -- produce similar verifiable results in Evolution, Big Bang, and Continetal Drift -- all three of which, I might add, are not immediately apparent to the naked eye but no less true for that.

Yes, scientists are human, and in recent years it has become more prevelent that small numbers of them mix their science and politics with disasterous and discreiting results -- Global Warming hysteria being a handy example. But I am not willing to let an ever-growing web of lies about President Bush, the US Military and the War on Terror go unanswered, and likewise I will not sit still and let a similar tapestry of lies and untruths tarnish what are the great scientific foundations of our age.

As a simple 'tard, Cincinatus, I await a set of experiments from you conclusively proving or disproving Intelligent Design. I expect them to have a thesis, a list of independently verifiable and repeatable experiments designed to prove the thesis, and most importantly, I expect your theory to provide approximate quantifiable numbers that will be testable against your hypothesis. That's science. Cough them up

.

606 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:48:35am

re: #592 zombie

I guess I was ahead of the curve.

yer dead: there is no curve...... props none the less

/won't come back from Deadman's Curve

607 zombie  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:49:28am

BTW, I always refer to Harun Yahya as "they," not "he." Why? Because the man named "Harun Yahya" is just the front man for a very large and well-funded organization. The name "Harun Yahya" is just a pseudonym, meaning "Aaron John" in Turklsh, referring to two Biblical prophets who have been co-opted by Islam. People wonder how this one secretive man can produce so much single-handedly and pay for everything single-handedly. The answer is: he isn't doing it single-handedly at all. He has thousands upon thousands of minions who actually do all the work -- he's just the figurehead. I think of Harun Yahya more as a movement., not an individual.

I've met Harun Yahya prosletyzers in person (at the aforemention seminar/event). Very aggressive, very confident, very scary. It reminded me of a cross between Tony-Robbins-esque self-help glassy-eyed automatons, and a cult. And they've spread from Turkey throughout the Islamic world -- including into Islamic communities here in the US.

608 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:50:00am

re: #602 Salamantis

Sal: It's Charles' blog; he'll focus on any idiotarians he wants to.

GMTA

re: #567 redc1c4

he doesn't: he focuses on truth.

/that's hard for some people

609 RTLM  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:50:30am

Whittle continued:

Until such time, I will merely point you to the fact that you too can replicate the famous (Cornell?) experiment that took the primordial atmosphere of Earth, put it in a beaker, passed an electric spark through it, and returned a sea of amino acids. I can reproduce that experiment in school, and I can also reproduce it in church. When ID can do the same, then we can teach it as science.

Until then, this Nazi retard remains unimpressed.

610 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 1:56:46am

re: #609 RTLM

I upding, knowing its Whittle, but DANG! as Nazi retard go, we're in good company, RT! :D

611 littleoldlady  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:00:01am

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet ----------------------->
Help yourselves!

612 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:01:29am

re: #605 RTLM

To put it bluntly, Bill Whittle is THE SHIT! It is because of his site (which I hit by happy accident) that I found LGF.

613 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:01:49am

For those who have expressed doubts that I am in any way, manner, shape or form in the least bit knowledgeable concerning Christianity, I offer this comparative study I authored, and request that they post their own authored equivalent:

The Human Dialectic of Absolute Premises: Christianity and Marxism
[Link: blog.myspace.com...]

614 zombie  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:02:28am

re: #45 Charles

Read the links, please. US creationists ARE in cahoots with this creep. It's a fact.

As I mention in comment #607, Harun Yahya is not just one individual creep -- it's an entire international creationist movement, of which Oktar is the figurehead. Similar to L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology, or Sun Myung Moon and the Unification Church ("The Moonies"). All of these movements were founded by and are strongly associated with one person, but they have outgrown that phase, and are now self-sufficient movements on their own, even if the founder/leader is out of the picture.

Do not underestimate these Harun Yahya people.

615 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:02:44am

re: #611 littleoldlady

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet ----------------------->
Help yourselves!

you're late, and it tastes funny....

/guess i'll have to put even *more* flavorings in......

Lizard QA

616 freetoken  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:02:47am

re: #592 zombie

I guess I was ahead of the curve.

Yes, you were.

Reading that thread.... it becomes painfully clear how little things change...

617 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:03:18am

re: #612 Slumbering Behemoth

To put it bluntly, Bill Whittle is THE SHIT! It is because of his site (which I hit by happy accident) that I found LGF.

now we know who to blame.....

/white smoke!

618 littleoldlady  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:03:35am

re: #615 redc1c4

One second!

/sheesh
//I feel sorry for your wife!

;-)

619 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:05:22am

re: #614 zombie

As I mention in comment #607, Harun Yahya is not just one individual creep -- it's an entire international creationist movement, of which Oktar is the figurehead. Similar to L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology, or Sun Myung Moon and the Unification Church ("The Moonies"). All of these movements were founded by and are strongly associated with one person, but they have outgrown that phase, and are now self-sufficient movements on their own, even if the founder/leader is out of the picture.

Do not underestimate these Harun Yahya people.

does that mean i should aim high, or just hold center mass under "Heller"?

just curious......

620 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:06:29am

re: #613 Salamantis

Hey, well done, Sal...

/I usually avoid stuff like this, as it is Argument to Authority... but in some cases, we CAN post something that establishes we have a bit of actual, y'know, knowledge on the subject... :D

But I believe there were some ad hominems upthread, so you have a perfect opportunity to argue ad authoritatum

621 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:09:30am

re: #618 littleoldlady

One second!

/sheesh
//I feel sorry for your wife!

;-)

she's a wonderful woman, in every way......

except for her taste in men.

i feel sorry for her too: that's why i treat her like she's the best thing that's ever happened to me at all times. (besides the fact that she is.%-)

/i'd say i was lucky, but that would jinx it......

622 zombie  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:13:13am

re: #616 freetoken

Reading that thread.... it becomes painfully clear how little things change...

Yes -- things haven't changed at all. That is why I simply stopped commenting on evolution argument threads for over two years. I realized nothing was to be gained by the "discussions," since evidence was being ignored, and the same claims/tropes were endlessly repeated over and over. Nearly three years later, I came back to the arguments -- and lo and behold, the same claims are big trotted out after all that time, untouched, as if they hadn't been debunked a million times before. It's amazing to see.

623 littleoldlady  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:14:47am

re: #621 redc1c4

WOWSERS!

Not only did I +ding+, but I'm printing it out so that talloldman can read and sign (and I can frame).

624 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:14:59am

re: #622 zombie

Yes -- things haven't changed at all. That is why I simply stopped commenting on evolution argument threads for over two years. I realized nothing was to be gained by the "discussions," since evidence was being ignored, and the same claims/tropes were endlessly repeated over and over. Nearly three years later, I came back to the arguments -- and lo and behold, the same claims are big trotted out after all that time, untouched, as if they hadn't been debunked a million times before. It's amazing to see.

which proves you simply aren't cynical enough....... %-)

625 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:15:34am

re: #622 zombie

And once around the Merry Go Round is quite enough, Zomboid...

I have better things to do (as do YOU, apparently) than use sign-language with the blind...

626 freetoken  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:17:27am

re: #622 zombie

[...], and the same claims/tropes were endlessly repeated over and over. Nearly three years later, I came back to the arguments -- and lo and behold, the same claims are big trotted out after all that time, untouched, as if they hadn't been debunked a million times before. It's amazing to see.

So the questions arise -

Why? Why do the same old failed talking points keep getting recycled? Yes, I know that there are always new bodies to any sect, and the newbies pick up the teachings and run with them just like the previous pack... but again, why are the institutions not changing?

This is all rhetorical - I know the answer. Yet I can't help but feel as if I've heard all the arguments a million times...

627 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:18:16am

re: #623 littleoldlady

WOWSERS!

Not only did I +ding+, but I'm printing it out so that talloldman can read and sign (and I can frame).

now i'll have to get Stinky to delete it, so it never happened.

i deny everything, and pop lots of smoke...............

/cooties

628 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:19:48am

re: #625 Karridine

And once around the Merry Go Round is quite enough, Zomboid...

I have better things to do (as do YOU, apparently) than use sign-language with the blind...

never try to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time & annoys the pig. %-)

629 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:24:46am

re: #626 freetoken

So the questions arise -

Why? Why do the same old failed talking points keep getting recycled? Yes, I know that there are always new bodies to any sect, and the newbies pick up the teachings and run with them just like the previous pack... but again, why are the institutions not changing?

This is all rhetorical - I know the answer. Yet I can't help but feel as if I've heard all the arguments a million times...

then you won't get fooled again!

630 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:25:21am

re: #628 redc1c4

Roger that! ;D

631 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:27:30am

re: #617 redc1c4

Heh, it's not Bill's fault, but the fault of (not so) Intelligent Direction. All a happy accident that I do not regret. I get a healthy education every week from such sites.

G'nite Lizards!

632 freetoken  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:29:44am

Well, I'm out of here too.... thanks for the fruitcup LOL!

633 littleoldlady  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:31:35am

freetoken! :-)

I remembered to do fruitcup? Oh, goodie!

634 RTLM  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:34:59am

Man, I'm hungry... !

635 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:36:54am

Sal: By the Numbers

#75 Salamantis

re: #33 Pastorius
In many ways, I agree with Harun Yahya that Nazism was neo-Paganism.

Sal: You could just as easily describe it as neo-lutheranism.

===
#171 Salamantis
re: #126 Pastorius

#75 Sal,
Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, true.
But, Hitler was no friend of the Christian church. According to the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, one of the first groups Hitler went after, when he rose to power, was christian Pastors who would not swear allegiance to him above the Bible and their church.

You are in error here; tragic error.

- 95% of Hitler's Germans declared themselves officially as Christian.
- During the first years of Hitler's rule, 95 - 98% of this same population supported Nazi policies through regular referendum.
- Hitler never closed a church.
- Hitler banned pagans from school boards and banished pagan literature from the military.
- Hitler had to order some churches to remove his picture from their altars.
- The Hitler Youth had youth pastors and over 100 Hitler Youth camps had Bible teaching.
- The Gestapo raised funds for African missions.

===
At which point I asked:re: #218 MajorPribluda

What's the tragic part of not associating Hitler with Christianity?

Your sole purpose in posting the points in your #171 seems to have been the association of National Socialism with Christianity. It certainly wasn't to refute the allegation that Nazism was associated with Paganism, made by Pastorius. What was the tragic mistake made by pastorius, if not the mistake of not associating Nazism with Christianity?
===
After this, our friend unixrab brought up an incomprehensible point with a bizarre distinction, and in the course of attempting to answer that (I have no idea how well that worked, as I can't make heads or tails of unixrab if I assume that he has a point and proceed from there), I said this:
#314 MajorPribluda

[...] I'm taking Salamantis to task for possibly* smearing Christians [...] from an ignorant neo-Pagan POV, [...]
* Not sure, Sal, if that ignorant POV is yours or not. Not calling you ignorant without clarification.

===
Upon which you went non-linear:
re: #489 Salamantis

Sal: You had better NOT try that shit, MP! I was a Christian for years before I was a Pagan,

Most neo-Pagans were, of course, and many of them have some ignorant anti-Christian POV, no? For the second time, am I wrong about that?

and in fact, as a teenaged choir director and lead soprano for a 2000 member Oklahoma City church singing the Christmas Cantata Night of Miracles, we won a superior rating and the state championship as Oral Roberts Universiity.

Congratulations. it does not address the only question I asked. It does not innoculate you from any point of view. Are you relying upon your band camp achievements as proof of the validity of your statements now?

I have also studied comparative religion on a graduate level.

Ah, yes--your credentials. none of which are available in this forum, so I ask you to discuss points, not provenance. We can't get anywhere otherwise.

I have read the KJV thrice from cover to cover, and referenced it countless times more. Ignorant of Christianity I am not.

I would submit that every neo-Pagan who wishes to connect Nazis with Christianity will assert that he knows more than your average Christian about Christianity. So that's not really relevant.
All I asked was: What was Pastorius' tragic mistake? Was it his failure to associate Hitler with Nazism (and pardon me for using Hitler and Nazi interchangeably--I realize it's not exactly so).

636 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:37:25am

re: #634 RTLM

Man, I'm hungry... !

i've got some left over dry rub ribs in the frig.....

/with homemade sauce and beer to go with them.

637 littleoldlady  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:37:57am

re: #634 RTLM

RTLM! :-)

Evidently there's fruitcup...

638 RTLM  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:43:13am

I've got some left over pizza from a good local place in the fridge. I do believe I'll slather three pieces in olive oil, salt and pepper.

Then heat it up in our brand new convection oven. With a final glass of cheap cab.

(and of coarse the fruit cup)

639 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:45:44am

re: #637 littleoldlady

RTLM! :-)

Evidently there's fruitcup...

evidently you weren't paying attention.....the fruitcup excess has been whisked for still juice.

/HAND!

640 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:45:45am

I think reasonable people can be reasoned with, and these ID threads have woken up more than a couple people to the agenda of DI and other creationist groups. If we don't speak out about it, others who would agree with us through reason won't hear anything but the taqiyya.

641 redc1c4  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:47:29am

re: #638 RTLM

I've got some left over pizza from a good local place in the fridge. I do believe I'll slather three pieces in olive oil, salt and pepper.

Then heat it up in our brand new convection oven. With a final glass of cheap cab.

(and of coarse the fruit cup)

if you're drinking "cheap cab" you couldn't get any more 'coarse' %-)

642 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 2:51:41am

Sleepy B- I knew there was a reason why I liked Mr. Whittle so much.

643 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:05:35am

re: #641 redc1c4

if you're drinking "cheap cab" you couldn't get any more 'coarse' %-)

I was thinking "a cheap cabriolet...", but they're DIFFICULT to drink... kinda hard on the tonsils... :D

644 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:08:24am

Say, is the Spy turned on? I can't get it to work, even with Shift-Refresh...
Zilch.
Nada.
No
thing...

645 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:15:01am

re: #588 Salamantis

I do these things chronologically. by the numbers, as I get to them working down from the top. And I don't break that system to please the likes of you.

So did you upding my comments early in this thread before, or after, you wrote the following paragraph?

But you've got nothing whatsoever, because you never contribute jack shit. You're just a fucking parasite, sniping at everybody else, without offering a goddamned thing of your own, because you're scared shitless of being the bitee, and deep down inside, you know that you've got nothing of your own worth giving.


Or did you just throw an authoritarian tantrum, because I don't think much of credentials alone? You won't answer questions when asked nicely, and won't answer questions when asked rudely, but in both cases simply tell me what an expert you are and swear a lot. How much respect should I hold for your apparently worthless education?

Pastorius linked Nazism and neo-Paganism. You responded not by refuting the claim, but by linking Nazism and Christianity. I asked if that was your intent. I think that you know you have been called on a fallacy, but rather than back down, you're hoping to make the question go away.

646 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:16:48am

re: #644 Karridine

Say, is the Spy turned on? I can't get it to work, even with Shift-Refresh...
Zilch.
Nada.
No
thing...

Hmmm... It's working for me.

647 RTLM  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:18:58am

OT:

(picked up this morning)

Tony Zendejas Allegedly Drugged, Raped Woman

Zendejas is accused of giving a woman at his bar/restaurant a drink that made her groggy on Jan. 26. She told authorities she woke up in a nearby motel room and had been raped.

pic

/:shock:

648 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:22:45am

Morning all. Pass the fruitcup, please.
Krauthammer: How Hostages and Nations get liberated

On the day the Colombian military freed Ingrid Betancourt and 14 other long-held hostages, the Italian Parliament passed yet another resolution demanding her release. Europe had long ago adopted this French-Colombian politician as a cause celebre. France had made her an honorary citizen of Paris, passed numerous resolutions and held many vigils.

Today the International Criminal Court will issue an arrest warrant for Sudan's president, on genocide charges. Who's going to enforce it?

649 yehoshua  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:27:03am

The denial of Creation is, at bottom, a denial of God. Masquerading as separation of Church and State, those who want to keep God and Creation out of schools have an agenda:
they want to keep God out of our lives, period. I know there are belieiving people who argue for keeping God out of schools but they are merely dupes who, in the end, serve the non-believers' agenda.

650 RTLM  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:27:30am

re: #648 Jim in Virginia

Morning all. Pass the fruitcup, please.
Krauthammer: How Hostages and Nations get liberated

Today the International Criminal Court will issue an arrest warrant for Sudan's president, on genocide charges. Who's going to enforce it?

No one.

But your mention of the FARC hostage rescue brings up an interesting point. Both McCain and the FARC hostages were released/rescued after some 5 years of imprisonment.

McCain was in Colombia when the rescue operation took place.

That is remarkable.

651 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:32:30am

re: #649 yehoshua

The denial of Creation is, at bottom, a denial of God. Masquerading as separation of Church and State, those who want to keep God and Creation out of schools have an agenda:
they want to keep God out of our lives, period. I know there are belieiving people who argue for keeping God out of schools but they are merely dupes who, in the end, serve the non-believers' agenda.

Honest question: Are you an American?

652 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:36:00am

re: #646 MajorPribluda

Thanks, MP...

I'll try a reboot later...

653 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:38:53am

re: #649 yehoshua
Which God do you want in schools?
If you're a Baptist in Salt Lake City (or a Mormon in Atlanta) do you want religion in schools?

654 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:44:03am

re: #651 MajorPribluda

The denial of Creation is, at bottom, a denial of God.

Not at all.
If God is the Creator, then it is not possible the the Creator should exist without Creation. This material Creation has ever existed, and will ever exist.

Creationism, (as rejected here) is a belief that material Creation came into existence not in 6 symbolic days, but in 6 24-hour 'days', as such days exist in Earth-time.

Creationism, by that definition, forces God into being some kind of chooser of poor Words, with which to reveal His Will to humankind; turns God into a capricious, deceptive Being Who puts signs of thousands, millions and BILLIONS OF YEARS of material Creation around us humans, endows us with a Rational Soul and freedom of choice, then promises to punish us for USING that Rational Soul to ascertain, logically and rationally, that God's Creation has been here for far, FAR longer than 6,000 years...

Denial of Creation, as a one-off trick by a capricious and spiteful 'God', is a denial of ignorance.

655 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:44:31am

re: #635 MajorPribluda

Sal: My point about neo-Lutheranism vs. neoPaganism is that there is no record of Pagan antisemites (unless you count the Romans, before they converted and their kingdom became the Holy Roman Empire), but there is a vast record of Martin Luther being a quite virulent one. It's a matter of the ebon pot calling the stainless steel kettle black.

My point about the tragic error is that, contrary to the position asserted, and to which that post was an answer, neither Hitler not German Christians were particularly anti-each other; in fact, they collaborated on many things, as the Christian Glimpses site amply documents (probably because of some deeply rooted antisemitism in broad sections of German Christian society ever since Martin Luther). To consider one's own religion to be immune to such blandishments because one erroneously believed that it resisted them before when it in fact did not is to leave oneself open, the next time a totalitarian comes along who seductively smiles sideways at your faith, to a historical repetition of a lesson one did not learn.

THAT was Pastorius' tragic mistake; such an attitude, if held by enough people of a once-collaborating faith, could lead to another such tragedy, by virtue of the insulating knowledge of a horrible history, and that one's own faith played regrettable parts in it, being absent. And that was precisely the kind of thing that this Glimpses page to which I linked was created to prevent (check out the end).

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

Many, in fact most, Pagans were indeed Christian before they became Pagan. What this fact entails is that, far from harboring ignorant anti-Christian views, they know a helluva lot more about Christianity, on average, than the average Christian knows about Paganism, so yes you are wrong about Christian-ignorant Pagans; 180 degrees wrong. In fact I am reminded of the statement that it isn't what we don't know that gets us into trouble so much as what we think we know that simply isn't so. Well, a lot of Christians think they know a lot of things about Paganism that simply aren't so, far more than the other way around. The ignorant POVs usually aren't on the Pagan side concerning Christianity, but on the Christian side concerning Paganism, as posters to this site indefatiguably demonstrate. That I saw yet one more person contemplating this same travestous tack, while posessing the utter temerity and gall to assert that it was not they who would be cross-religiously ignorant, but the other guy, irked me to no end.

As far as credentials, I have my degrees and my GRE scores, but I can't show them to you online. I can, however, post a link to a graduate level comparative study of Chritianity and Marxism that I wrote. In fact, I already posted the link once, but here it is again. This type of thing is known, by the way, as evidence of ability and of academic achievement; the kind of achievement necessary to author such a work (and there are 16 other nonfiction essays on my site, btw; lemme know if you wanna read any of them). It's kinda like showing you're a good blacksmith by showing off the shoes you made and nailed on the hooves of the horse you're riding. Having proven my own facility in the field, I renew my request for the same from you, who initially questioned my acumen in the area (just returning the disfavor). When you can produce anything approaching it in the field, you let me know. Show me that you possess standing to knowledgeably criticize. Hell; I'd be satisfied with a critique of the work that demonstrates some modicum of comprehension. But I won't hold my breath, or even delay any planned vacations. It's not like I'm really expecting you to actually produce anything except more digital hot air.

[Link: blog.myspace.com...]

656 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:45:09am

re: #654 Karridine

not possible THAT The Creator should be without Creation...

PIMF

657 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:46:18am

re: #649 yehoshua

As if the islamists wouldn't love the opportunity you're presenting.

658 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:49:14am
659 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:50:42am
"The U.S. is becoming a nation of whining Democrats"....!


Even when they call themselves Republicans! :P

660 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:53:50am
661 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:54:13am

re: #649 yehoshua

The denial of Creation is, at bottom, a denial of God. Masquerading as separation of Church and State, those who want to keep God and Creation out of schools have an agenda:
they want to keep God out of our lives, period. I know there are belieiving people who argue for keeping God out of schools but they are merely dupes who, in the end, serve the non-believers' agenda.

Okay: Are you an American?
[no answer, came the bold reply]

If so, then are you prepared to go for the Big Win? Are you prepared to outlaw the teaching of multiple religions while mandating the teaching (if not practice) of a particular religion, and are you advocating that a particular religion become a part of the government's policy? Are you agitating for a Theocracy?

Or are you prepared to accept all sorts of religious teaching in public schools, from Baha'i and Deism to Wicca and Satanism? Are you ready to mandate the teaching of every religion, and therefore the support of none without even the principle of separation? (I can't imagine how this would work, even as a conjectural Dystopia--it just doesn't work).

So you'll pardon me if I assume that you have a particular religion in mind, not simply "God" in the classroom. There's always the tricky question of Whose God? And while you protest and say The One True God, of course, so does everybody else. And you don't all agree.

And if this government comes into being, how shall those who disagree with you be dealt with under the new laws? If I write a paper which argues against the existence of God, do I automatically fail for proceeding from faulty premises, or for using faulty logic? After all, if a religion is taught, then arguing against it means failure.

Take it from this dis-believer: I don't want religion taught in place of Science. I have no desire to "keep God out of your life". Can you profess the converse sentiment?

662 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 3:56:54am
663 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:08:48am

Exactly, Major.

I do NOT want the government of America to open THAT door, to anyone, even the Atheists, who clamor that all mention of God be effaced from public places.

It is dystopic, dysfunctional and dys-asterous!

664 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:09:41am

re: #645 MajorPribluda

re: #588 Salamantis

I do these things chronologically. by the numbers, as I get to them working down from the top. And I don't break that system to please the likes of you.

So did you upding my comments early in this thread before, or after, you wrote the following paragraph?

But you've got nothing whatsoever, because you never contribute jack shit. You're just a fucking parasite, sniping at everybody else, without offering a goddamned thing of your own, because you're scared shitless of being the bitee, and deep down inside, you know that you've got nothing of your own worth giving.

Sal: I found few comments of yours worth updings; that speculation was one of them. But I did not connect it to you when I wrote that paragraph; and aside from that one flash of neurons, you still haven't shown me much except an ability to bitch, moan, whine, insult, and pick fights.

Or did you just throw an authoritarian tantrum, because I don't think much of credentials alone? You won't answer questions when asked nicely, and won't answer questions when asked rudely, but in both cases simply tell me what an expert you are and swear a lot. How much respect should I hold for your apparently worthless education?

Sal: I think you resent credentials because you lack them, because you were unable to attain them, and thus you have festered in bitterness and envy because of it. I answered your questions (for instance in #655 and # 588); I have yet to see you answer a single question of mine. But here are some more. How old are you? Do you know anything about Paganism, or about comparative religion generally? Do you know anything about philosophy or logic? In fact, do you have any education at all beyond high school? Have you served your country in the military? Have you ever been married, or owned your own home? Have you done anything whatsoever in your life? Or is what we see here all there is? Because if that's the case, I truly pity you. But, sadly enough, if it is indeed the case, you have plenty of company; however, they're usually on sites that despise LGF.

Pastorius linked Nazism and neo-Paganism. You responded not by refuting the claim, but by linking Nazism and Christianity. I asked if that was your intent. I think that you know you have been called on a fallacy, but rather than back down, you're hoping to make the question go away.

Sal: Naah; I just didn't check back on here for a while. But boy are you gonna be surprised when you read #655, where I not only justify my own posts, but put some exceedingly uncomfortable questions to you concerning your own repeatedly bigotrous anti-Pagan attitude. Unless you are utterly beyond or beneath embarrassment and shame, you're gonna feel kinda like the drunk schoolkid who stumbled through the wrong door to take a leak, pulling his pud out all the while, only to discover that it was the door to a packed auditorium and not to the bathroom. Because I have exposed your own biased, flawed and discriminatory assumptions, that underpinned your whole line of attack, to all and sundry who read this thread. Only anti-Pagan bigots would continue to say to and ask a Pagan, and here I directly quote you:

"Most neo-Pagans were, of course, and many of them have some ignorant anti-Christian POV, no? For the second time, am I wrong about that?"

665 GeeWiz  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:11:59am

Charles & LGF just got credited for the Iranian photoshop discovery on Fox & Friends.

Kudos Charles!

666 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:12:50am

I think the Separation of Church and State was our Founders' best idea after breaking with England. I say we keep it!

667 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:13:38am

Good morning, Lizards!

Lizard Prayer List 7/11/08
Prayers for thanks, praise, comfort, strength, healing, and hope

Seeking Updates
Many thanks to Ben Z and Cap'n Doc for starting this.

Thanksgivings
loppyd: nephew with Type I Diabetes doing well
The Albatross: enough clients to cover medical expenses

Health issues:
Noamsayin: niece and dad battling cancer
Truck Monkey: Brady (11-year-old with brain cancer who is on the football team he coaches)
Pvt Bin Jammin: best friend is terminally ill with COPD
Shaky Louie: chronic pancriatitis, and an (as yet) undiagnosed liver problem.
loppyd: step-father undergoing treatment for colon cancer
Macker: health issues and treatment
newsjunkie_ky: Step-Dad
Sarah: dad (cancer);
Zonie: cancer and renal failure
Jorline: father who has colon cancer
Pro-Bush Canuck: sister’s illness
LanceKates: dad’s continued recovery from surgery
Ma Sands: daughter dealing with postpartum issues
Tarkus289: father is in hospital; may have pneumonia after two strokes and stage 7 Alzheimer'
kcladderman: father’s throat cancer; just finisher second round of radiation
Clutch: 82-year-old mom’s recovery from eye surgery
realwest: cancer; mom Type II diabetes
BBev: wife’s illness; recovering from surgery
Kenneth: beloved daughter "M" serious chronic illness.
Babbazee: ancillary health problems
Cartman: liver and other health problems
Irene NYC: mom’s cancer
EC Marm: wife is hurt
Lucius Septimius: mother
Storagemanager: copd (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease)
BenZacharia: wifffeee’s recovery from surgery
USMC1968: cancer

Family, friend, and life situations:
pre-Boomer Marine brat: safe travel for family
Typicalwhitey: family & neighbors dealing with flooding
CoCo: mother paralyzed (due to strokes) and is now having new health
SavageNation
Lucius Septimus: healing of hurts
David Simon: mom (Alzheimer's)
Sarah: and her husband in the process of moving to Arizona for husband’s schooling
Intrepid:. Mom has Alzheimer's and Intrepid is caretaker
wolfie: nephew (USAR) who is being sent into the thick of things in Iraq.
conservgirl: atheist SPM, that he finds the Lord
Lizards with family issues
Hayseed: extended family challenges
Maximus: son reports for active duty in August.
Noraono: colleagues laid off in building industry
antiislamist: in need of prayers
lone_wolf_in_illinois: friends and family in Israel
GotC: EH/kids; losing cousin and aunt within 4 months
Danger close: general
zulubaby, Carl in Jerusalem, Mr Pol, Golden Jerusalem, basically all the minion in eretz Yisrael
noam sayin': comfort for a lost brother
DorianGrey: much sorrow
Buckeye Abroad: in the belly of the beast of Eurabia
ChildOfMary: job for hubby and health for self
nonic: general
yank in EU: general
MdiM: general
Suzette: general

Community issues:
Those dealing with the flooding in the Midwest
Gilad Schalit, Ehud Goldwasser, Eldad Regev, for their release.
The families of John Young and Ron Withrow and those of the contractors still held hostage
Ezra Levant and Brian at Snapped Shot: for justice

I just got my computer back (on which this list was saved), so I know I have some catching up to do.

668 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:14:40am

Your Muslim vid for the day :

Girl divorced at ten

I'm Pissed. Recognize the evil, people. This is evil.

669 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:15:01am

oy vey...sleep for a bit and come back to this.

Okay, In short, if this stuff is accurate, we really need to kick the creationists in the head for allying with these gits and tell them to clean house.

Secondly, keep the matters of faith out of the public schools...that includes Enviromentalism, which is now the new secularist faith.

I'm so tired of this nonsense rearing it's head

670 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:17:21am

re: #649 yehoshua

The denial of Creation is, at bottom, a denial of God. Masquerading as separation of Church and State, those who want to keep God and Creation out of schools have an agenda:
they want to keep God out of our lives, period. I know there are belieiving people who argue for keeping God out of schools but they are merely dupes who, in the end, serve the non-believers' agenda.

Sal: Sorry, yehoshua; you're not duping anybody here with this load of crap. First of all, sectarian religious dogmas concerning whether or not some god created the universe or created life have nothing to do with science, and therefore do not belong in public high school science class, where evolutionary theory, being science, does indeed belong.

Second, if anyone wants any religion whatsoever in their lives, they can buy the books on it or look it up on the internet; they can find a church for it and attend; in a lot of cases, they can even send their kids to private schools that are affiliated with it, or they can homeschool.

You are not going to be able to dupe believers into handing their kids' education over to sectarian theocrats who most likely view things differently than they do, and will insist upon pumping their beliefs on the heads of other peoples' kids. Ain't gonna happen. People are too smart for that scam.

671 littleoldlady  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:17:34am

re: #667 goddessoftheclassroom

goddess! :-)

Miguel come online yesterday and told the Dead Threaders that he'd had a "slight" stroke. According to realwest, he'd like to be placed on "the list".

672 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:18:47am

Little Old Lady

:(

673 Tigger2005  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:18:52am

re: #649 yehoshua

The denial of Creation is, at bottom, a denial of God. Masquerading as separation of Church and State, those who want to keep God and Creation out of schools have an agenda:
they want to keep God out of our lives, period. I know there are belieiving people who argue for keeping God out of schools but they are merely dupes who, in the end, serve the non-believers' agenda.

So what you're saying is, in order to keep believing in God, we must ignore facts and evidence and lie to our children.

How does this make us more moral? Why should we think a God who requires us to stop using our minds and to lie to ourselves and others in order to believe in him is even worth worshiping?

How, PRAY tell, does "keeping God out of schools" keep God out of anyone's lives or minds? You must believe in a very weak and limited God, who can be constrained from entering certain buildings by mere human laws.

You actually believe that the STATE should have the power to teach children about God and Creation (undoubtedly the Judeo-Christian creation story), even if the State's version contradicts the beliefs of the parents.

No. The State should teach children reading, writing, arithmetic, history, science, economics, civics, logical and critical thinking, schools of philosophical thought, etc., and leave matters of faith to the parents and their churches. If the parents choose not to teach religion to their children, it is NOT up to the State to step in and do it for them. (And as far as I'm concerned, if the parents fail to teach their children politeness, courtesy, and basic morality, it is not up to the State to teach them that either...the children should simply be expelled until their parents live up to their responsibilities.)

Frankly, you sound like a socialist. You aparently don't believe that We the People are capable of developing our own belief systems and/or moral and ethical philosophies and passing these along to our children...you believe this is the duty of the State. Even when the State is currently doing a piss-poor job of educating children in anything.

674 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:20:32am

re: #671 littleoldlady

goddess! :-)

Miguel come online yesterday and told the Dead Threaders that he'd had a "slight" stroke. According to realwest, he'd like to be placed on "the list".

{littleoldlady}

Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for letting me know. I've added him now.

How are you doing?

675 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:21:53am

re: #668 SasquatchOnSteroids

Your Muslim vid for the day :

Girl divorced at ten

I'm Pissed. Recognize the evil, people. This is evil.


Child brides in Yemen.
[Link: www2.tbo.com...]

676 Tigger2005  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:23:49am

re: #663 Karridine

Exactly, Major.

I do NOT want the government of America to open THAT door, to anyone, even the Atheists, who clamor that all mention of God be effaced from public places.

SOME atheists clamor for this. Please don't lump us all together.

677 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:25:28am

re: #668 SasquatchOnSteroids

Your Muslim vid for the day :

Girl divorced at ten

I'm Pissed. Recognize the evil, people. This is evil.

This is an 8-year-old girl in Yemen who got a divorce.

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

678 jegjr  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:26:36am

But thank God (pun not intended) for those Christians in '04 huh, or John Kerry'd be our President.

679 littleoldlady  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:27:14am

re: #672 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Jewels! :-)

He sounds great, actually. Very upbeat!

It's like one of those "things" that happen to us old folks, the purpose of which is to remind us it's time to make lifestyle changes.

/"this old age stinks!"™

re: #674 goddessoftheclassroom

I'm vertical.

/it's the little things... ;-)

How's by you?

680 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:29:06am

re: #679 littleoldlady

Jewels! :-)

He sounds great, actually. Very upbeat!

It's like one of those "things" that happen to us old folks, the purpose of which is to remind us it's time to make lifestyle changes.

/"this old age stinks!"™

re: #674 goddessoftheclassroom

I'm vertical.

/it's the little things... ;-)

How's by you?

I'm doing fine, thanks! We've had beautiful weather for the past few days, and that adds joy to life.

681 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:30:30am

Speaking of Evolution...I have to spend the day in Rural West Virginia.

682 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:30:45am

re: #677 MandyManners

This is an 8-year-old girl in Yemen who got a divorce.

That poor girl in the first vid had to pay her rapist, and that's all he is, $200. These pervs should be stood against the wall. But the Book of Stan encourages it. It's evil, pure and simple.

683 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:32:02am

re: #681 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of Evolution...I have to spend the day in Rural West Virginia.

Ttthhhhhhhhppppppppppptttttttttttttttt.

684 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:33:42am

re: #683 MandyManners

Hey...You aren't in WV are you? The last three generations of my family are from Rural WV.

685 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:34:03am

re: #683 MandyManners

and...Hey! You got spit on my keyboard!

686 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:34:16am

re: #682 SasquatchOnSteroids

I burst out laughing when the father said that the rapist had promised to not touch the girl until she turned 20. Didn't the father not realize that she became the property of her "husband" upon marriage?

I'm not buying it. Her dad knew.

687 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:35:23am

Wish I was doing better. I'm putting in fora transfer at my current job. The place has become a stress ball over teh last few months and it's to the point I'm not sleeping properly

688 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:35:24am

re: #676 Tigger2005

Distinction noted, again.

I'm not a broad-brush browner, Tigger, and you know what I was describing, well enough to be sure you're NOT included amongst them, even by accident... :D

/Madeleine Murray? Is that the name?

689 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:38:41am

re: #686 MandyManners

I burst out laughing when the father said that the rapist had promised to not touch the girl until she turned 20. Didn't the father not realize that she became the property of her "husband" upon marriage?

I'm not buying it. Her dad knew.

Yep, bastard knew exactly what was going on.

690 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:39:04am

re: #684 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It's a gorgeous place.

691 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:39:39am

re: #689 SasquatchOnSteroids

Yep, bastard knew exactly what was going on.

So his protestations to the contrary show that he knows it's wrong.

692 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:39:57am

sleep calls

693 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:41:12am

Good morning all
Goddess ... MWAH!

In for just a moment to note something interesting from the stats. 3 from Reuters yesterday. 7 already today.

694 littleoldlady  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:41:21am

re: #687 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Nice try, Jewels, but "lack of sleep" won't get you on "the list". If it were so, I'd be sitting there right at the top.

/teasing

Hope it works out for you! {Jewels!}

695 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:45:09am

re: #690 MandyManners

Mandy, I love ya, and hate to disagree with ya; while the natural beauty of WV is unquestionable (some would say un-rivaled); it is a poverty laden place of dying towns, with few areas of exception.

It is sad, but it is the truth.

696 3 wood  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:45:30am

Good Morning Lizards.

Hold onto your wallet and watch the price of oil jump over the next few trading days. Due to all the tensions related to the Iran situation, every one I know in the market is closing out any short positions on oil and going long big time. In english, that means they see prices jumping.

You might want to get that old 10 speed out of the back of the garage and pump up the tires.

697 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:46:26am

re: #696 3 wood

meh!

698 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:46:49am

Gotta run y'all...strike up the banjos!

699 Escovado  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:48:29am

"Radical Muslim Funding US Creationist Groups?"

I know for a fact that radical Muslims do not fund U.S. creationist groups like ICR. And yes, I have read the links. This subject is just one of the planks in Charles' eye, in an otherwise good blog, which thrives on innuendo and non-sequiturs. His own bigotry against Christian creationists with "their Dark Ages anti-science agenda" fills in the blanks to make connections that were never there.

700 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:52:07am

good mornin',Lizardia...did anyone catch the Charles Johnson/LGF mention and Iranian photo shop attribution on Fox and Friends this morn? think it was at 7:07 est...

701 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:53:16am

re: #695 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Mandy, I love ya, and hate to disagree with ya; while the natural beauty of WV is unquestionable (some would say un-rivaled); it is a poverty laden place of dying towns, with few areas of exception.

It is sad, but it is the truth.

That doesn't detract from its beauty.

702 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:53:51am

Geraldo's pin-striped suit matches his salon-generated hair.

703 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:53:51am

re: #699 Escovado

Oooh... "innuendo and non sequitur"
Do you have a LINK to support your claim? a link I could not follow?

I really don't want to spend my precious life at a blog consciously embracing "innuendo and non sequitur", Esco

704 yochanan  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:54:22am

strange bedfellows

705 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:55:17am

There went the neighborhood...

706 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:56:21am

re: #695 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Mandy, I love ya, and hate to disagree with ya; while the natural beauty of WV is unquestionable (some would say un-rivaled); it is a poverty laden place of dying towns, with few areas of exception.

It is sad, but it is the truth.


went to Davis and Elkins College in Elkins many lifetimes ago...fell in love with the wild nature of the state and though the economic condition is mostly as you say,I agree with Mandy...What they need is some RIGHTEOUS political leadership and a coupla' breaks and they'll be allright...

707 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:59:28am

re: #706 joecitizen

Man, I LIKE your attitude, Joe!

/So I'll go back to some old crowded city
In some northern fact'ry town you'll find me there
Though the time are sad and drear
I cannot linger here
These are the worst times I've ever known

708 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 4:59:31am

re: #699 Escovado

"Radical Muslim Funding US Creationist Groups?"

I know for a fact that radical Muslims do not fund U.S. creationist groups like ICR. And yes, I have read the links. This subject is just one of the planks in Charles' eye, in an otherwise good blog, which thrives on innuendo and non-sequiturs. His own bigotry against Christian creationists with "their Dark Ages anti-science agenda" fills in the blanks to make connections that were never there.


that,sir or madam,is idiotic...Charles is NOT bigoted toward christian creationists but toward idiocy in ALL its forms..and I bless him for it,whether your god does or not...

709 3 wood  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:01:42am

re: #695 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

For FBJ

Country Roads

By the late John Denver.

710 Purple Fury  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:01:53am

OT:

Iranian fauxtography is the lede (during the opening music) for the 8AM hour.

711 Purple Fury  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:02:19am

#710:

For NPR, I meant to say.

712 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:03:55am

these people at Fox really should get their shit together and have ol' Charles on...the curve is all curvin' toward LGF and the sooner these nimrods get this,the better...

713 Annar  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:04:10am

Harun Yahya is running a successful scam preying on the feeble minded who need to shore up their belief in the Islamic superstition. In principle it is no different than the rackets run by many of the fundamentalist Christian sects on TV and radio who con people to send in cash so they can live in luxury on the backs of ignorant 'souls.'

Yahya's cozenage is particularly appealing to the Christian con artists since he has outdone them all using both publishing and the internet as cash cows so it's not all surprising that many would attend his Turkish seminars to learn at the feet of the master on the money making possibilities of creationism.

It is indeed a shame that serious subject matter such as science is in any way associated with these fools.

714 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:04:41am

(ah! NOW that I've posted, the words come back to me)

The green rolling hills of West Virginia
Are the nearest thing to heaven that I know
Though the times are sad and drear
And I cannot linger here
They'll keep me and never let me go

715 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:05:27am

Fox and Friends on the story again...

716 Escovado  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:05:31am

re: #703 Karridine

Oooh... "innuendo and non sequitur"
Do you have a LINK to support your claim? a link I could not follow?

I really don't want to spend my precious life at a blog consciously embracing "innuendo and non sequitur", Esco

I have been acquainted with many of the people who founded ICR for many years. So I know that, in ICR's case, this is an outright lie. I hate to burst your bubble, but not everything is on the Internet. Why don't you contact ICR yourself and and ask them if they are recieveing funds from radical Muslims, hmmmm? I would suggest that Charles do the same also.

717 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:06:26am

re: #714 Karridine

(ah! NOW that I've posted, the words come back to me)


beautiful!

718 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:06:33am

re: #693 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Good morning all
Goddess ... MWAH!

In for just a moment to note something interesting from the stats. 3 from Reuters yesterday. 7 already today.

{pre-Boomer Marine brat}

How delightful to see you here this morning!

I did see the link to the panda adopted by a kitty--I appreciate your thinking of me.

I don't think it would occur to a dog to do this:

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com...]

719 Beach Lover  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:06:53am

Fox just gave Charles the kudos for the photoshop! Look out hamsters!

720 Escovado  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:07:15am

re: #708 joecitizen

that,sir or madam,is idiotic...Charles is NOT bigoted toward christian creationists but toward idiocy in ALL its forms..and I bless him for it,whether your god does or not...

Yes he is, since he, and you I assume, equate creationism with idoicy. I disagree, deal with it.

721 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:08:07am

re: #716 Escovado

You're suggesting that, IF THEY ARE, they'll say so?

"What? Why, yes, this year we received $37,500 in one check and $28,950 in another, from Harun Yahya... why do you ask?"

/ROFLMAO

722 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:08:11am

re: #719 Beach Lover

Fox just gave Charles the kudos for the photoshop! Look out hamsters!

And that the NYTimes was trying to take credit for it.
Or did I hear that wrong...

723 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:08:30am

re: #720 Escovado

Yes he is, since he, and you I assume, equate creationism with idoicy. I disagree, deal with it.


actually,in terms of THIS blog,YOU will have to 'deal with it'...

724 Beach Lover  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:09:11am

re: #722 SasquatchOnSteroids

didn't catch that...but they did say that the AP was publishing the "fake" one.

Heh

725 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:09:53am

re: #716 Escovado

I have been acquainted with many of the people who founded ICR for many years. So I know that, in ICR's case, this is an outright lie. I hate to burst your bubble, but not everything is on the Internet. Why don't you contact ICR yourself and and ask them if they are recieveing funds from radical Muslims, hmmmm? I would suggest that Charles do the same also.

Like they'd tell the truth about that?

726 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:10:17am

re: #719 Beach Lover

Fox just gave Charles the kudos for the photoshop! Look out hamsters!

Yaaaaaaaaaay!

727 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:10:25am

re: #718 goddessoftheclassroom

Hi there!
Was hanging around, checking the comments periodically, and just about to close out. Great timing.

That is a very well-mannered kitty, indeed. However, the look on her face tells my perceptive eye that she has inner repressions which need to be let out.

728 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:11:03am

re: #720 Escovado

Yes he is, since he, and you I assume, equate creationism with idoicy. I disagree, deal with it.

Where does Charles say that?

729 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:11:28am

re: #720 Escovado

equate creationism with idoicy


Actually, I neither equate Creationism with idoicy nor do I equate it with IDIOCY.

I see Creationism as another unfortunate outcome of Ecclesiasticals and their ignorance. NOT idiocy, ignorance, Sir.

730 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:11:40am

bbiab

731 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:12:29am

re: #721 Karridine

You're suggesting that, IF THEY ARE, they'll say so?
/ROFLMAO

Someday when I feel a compulsion to go through a refresher course in trying to piss up a rope, I'll go ask them.

732 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:13:52am

re: #731 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Y'know, Boomer, I was talking to this wall yesterday, and...

733 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:14:51am

re: #732 Karridine

Y'know, Boomer, I was talking to this wall yesterday, and...

The wall is very self-satisfied.

734 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:16:26am

re: #733 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The wall is very self-satisfied.

Smug, secure in its knowledge of brickness... but it answered me in a logical, reasonable manner ...

/WHEN it answered...

735 Karridine  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:17:40am

BBIAW...

Son-Lips want some CPU time..

736 Boogberg  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:18:02am

I'm not happy with the way Fox handled it! It was as if it was an after thought. Then they practically rolled their eyes when Charles was mentioned.

Fuckers.

737 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:21:42am

re: #736 Boogberg

I'm not happy with the way Fox handled it! It was as if it was an after thought. Then they practically rolled their eyes when Charles was mentioned.

Fuckers.


at least the topic was mentioned with proper attribution...as for the attitude (which I didn't get,frankly),these people are reporting that some faceless (relatively) 'other' is doing their job for them,it's only human to at least subconsciously resent that...

738 3 wood  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:22:17am

Sport Nerd Corner:

*sigh*

It sure is hard to be a Chicago sports fan at times.

First, the overall #1 draft pick in the NBA of the Chicago Bulls already has knee problems:

Rose sits again in Bulls defeat

Bulls guard Derrick Rose missed his second summer-league game in as many days because of an injured right knee as the Bulls lost to the New Jersey Nets 84-68 on Thursday in Orlando, Fla.

Rose is younger than most of the ties I have in my closet, and he has knee issues.

Then there are the Cubs:

Ross (2 HRs), Griffey go deep as Reds rout Cubs

Ross hit two of Cincinnati's seven homers, a long-ball barrage that included Ken Griffey Jr.'s 605th, and the Reds avoided a sweep with a 12-7 victory.

Seven homers! Cubs pitching gave up 7 homers. That is absolutely horrendous pitching.

And then there are the White Sox, who were 5 outs away from beating the lowly Royals, then melted down defensively like a bad little league team and lost 4 - 1.

Arrrgh.

739 granitebill  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:22:19am

Good morning all...

OT

Hezbollah gets stronger....
[Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

740 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:22:32am

I'm gone.
Have a great day, goddess.

741 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:24:34am

Good morning Lizards... So whats going on in this train wreck? Good god Charles isnt it time for a new thread yet?

742 hellosnackbar  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:24:45am

Creationist christians and creationist muslims in an unholy alliance of the stupid.
Just like the solids sinking first in the sedimentation tank.
Oh well,there's the England South Africa cricket test match to cheer me up:
current score England 422-5.

743 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:24:48am

re: #655 Salamantis

You keep going on about credentials. If I cared, I suppose I would ask if you have published your philosophical parallel between Christianity and Marxism anywhere other than MySpace. I stopped at the word "Dialectic", which was in the title, so I confess that I didn't get very far.

My credentials are useless here. And that's as far as I'm going with that. So fine, you win. I haven't produced any interminable, incomprehensible papers.

But my marriage is intact, my son is awesome, my house is beautiful, and my wife adores me. I love both of my financially and personally rewarding jobs, and only wish that I could do them both at the same time, even for the same pay. I have had more people work for me than you have studied under. I have spent the night in Bangkok--I have stood upon a glacier. And when I go to work, I do so with a phenomenal sense of humility as well as pride, of purpose and possibility, for the opportunity to make a real difference.

You can keep your papers.

744 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:26:29am

re: #741 doriangrey

Good morning Lizards... So whats going on in this train wreck? Good god Charles isnt it time for a new thread yet?

Yo yo yo..even super heroes need to sleep ONCE in awhile...

745 DistantThunder  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:26:46am

re: #147 redc1c4

since we are winding 'round a variety of subjects, and it's still early, i'd like to point out that Miguel (of LNDT fame) checked in late last night after a week or so of absence from the frivolity & fruitcup that LNL's revel in during the wee hours.....

it seems he had a "minor" stroke, and is coming along. i'd ask whomever it is that takes care of the Lizard Prayer List to add him & his loved ones to the intentions list, as appropriate, and ask that folks pass along the word as questions are asked.

Oh, my goodness...poor Miguel. I will keep him in my prayers, too.

746 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:27:42am

re: #744 joecitizen

Yo yo yo..even super heroes need to sleep ONCE in awhile...

Charles sleep? What have you been smoking and why aren't you sharing it?

747 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:28:46am

re: #745 DistantThunder

Oh, my goodness...poor Miguel. I will keep him in my prayers, too.

See #667 above for the list posted this morning. I've added Miguel to it for the next update, and I'm asking all Lizards to let me know of any other changes/additions. My nic is blue for those who prefer to contact me individually.

748 3 wood  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:29:20am

Prayers for Miguel, a very nice guy.

749 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:30:05am

re: #747 goddessoftheclassroom

See #667 above for the list posted this morning. I've added Miguel to it for the next update, and I'm asking all Lizards to let me know of any other changes/additions. My nic is blue for those who prefer to contact me individually.

Must resist urge to "contact" goddess individually... ((Goddess))

750 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:31:02am

I thought Miguel was young.

751 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:31:21am

re: #743 MajorPribluda

You keep going on about credentials. If I cared, I suppose I would ask if you have published your philosophical parallel between Christianity and Marxism anywhere other than MySpace. I stopped at the word "Dialectic", which was in the title, so I confess that I didn't get very far.

My credentials are useless here. And that's as far as I'm going with that. So fine, you win. I haven't produced any interminable, incomprehensible papers.

But my marriage is intact, my son is awesome, my house is beautiful, and my wife adores me. I love both of my financially and personally rewarding jobs, and only wish that I could do them both at the same time, even for the same pay. I have had more people work for me than you have studied under. I have spent the night in Bangkok--I have stood upon a glacier. And when I go to work, I do so with a phenomenal sense of humility as well as pride, of purpose and possibility, for the opportunity to make a real difference.

You can keep your papers.


all of that is,truly,fantastic! you and I have much in common but I would point out that all of these joys and triumphs in our lives are aided by the scientific and social advancements largely brought about by gals and guys that WRITE PAPERS and try to suss 'it all' out..dry subject matter and poor writing does not diminish the march of ideas...

752 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:31:37am

Good Morning Lizards!
How is everybody doing this fine morning?
/ the rumour is there is an ID thread lurking somewhere..Haven't seen it yet.

753 Nemesis6  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:32:50am

I've seen some of the stuff from Harun Yahya, and he's really the Muslim version of Kent Hovind with anti-Semitic sentiment mixed in. Him and Zakir Naik for some reason seem to be adored and loved by Muslims, even though their points are laughable at best.

754 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:33:26am

re: #746 doriangrey

Charles sleep? What have you been smoking and why aren't you sharing it?


ah,that rockandroll lifestyle..wake and bake?

755 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:33:31am

re: #743 MajorPribluda

You keep going on about credentials. If I cared, I suppose I would ask if you have published your philosophical parallel between Christianity and Marxism anywhere other than MySpace. I stopped at the word "Dialectic", which was in the title, so I confess that I didn't get very far.

My credentials are useless here. And that's as far as I'm going with that. So fine, you win. I haven't produced any interminable, incomprehensible papers.

But my marriage is intact, my son is awesome, my house is beautiful, and my wife adores me. I love both of my financially and personally rewarding jobs, and only wish that I could do them both at the same time, even for the same pay. I have had more people work for me than you have studied under. I have spent the night in Bangkok--I have stood upon a glacier. And when I go to work, I do so with a phenomenal sense of humility as well as pride, of purpose and possibility, for the opportunity to make a real difference.

You can keep your papers.

Chuckle chuckle, you have to have a couple of Crown Royals and RC cola's before Sal's papers make much sense...

756 realwest  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:34:12am

Good morning all y'all - from a warm (74 going up to 90 degrees) rainy and anticipating severe T-Storms, Charlotte.

I hope you are all doing well this morning!

757 JammieWearingFool  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:34:22am

re: #748 3 wood

Prayers for Miguel, a very nice guy.

Check you mail. Something important.

BBL, perhaps.

758 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:35:05am

re: #754 joecitizen

ah,that rockandroll lifestyle..wake and bake?

Charles is no Rock Star..........He is a true musician and a fine Jazz guitarist, do not besmirch his name again by comparing him to a rock musician... ;P

759 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:35:11am

MARION, Ala. — Federal and state authorities are looking into accusations of voting fraud in three largely black counties of Alabama, including Perry and Lowndes Counties, which played a historic role in the struggle for black voting rights in the 1960s.

In May, a local citizens group gathered affidavits detailing several cases in which at least one Democratic county official paid citizens for their votes, or encouraged them to vote multiple times. The affidavits were presented to state officials in Montgomery, the capital, and after the June 3 primary, the Alabama attorney general, Troy King, a Republican, seized voting records from the primary election in Bullock, Lowndes and Perry Counties.

SNIP

760 Boogberg  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:35:15am

re: #737 joecitizen

You're right, Joe. Maybe I overreacted. They're professionals, after all.

761 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:35:49am

re: #756 realwest

Good morning all y'all - from a warm (74 going up to 90 degrees) rainy and anticipating severe T-Storms, Charlotte.

I hope you are all doing well this morning!

Good morning realwest, I hope you are feeling well this morning.

762 realwest  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:36:09am

re: #747 goddessoftheclassroom Good morning {goddess} I hope you received my e-mail about Miguel - sent it around 2:00AM this morning). In any event, Miguel did contact me this morning and would appreciate being added to The List as "Recovering From Stroke".
I sure am praying for him right now - he is such a nice guy and friend.

763 realwest  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:36:57am

re: #761 doriangrey
Hey dorian - good morning to you, too! I'm doing ok, but could be better I reckon - how's by you today?

764 realwest  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:37:11am

BBIAM!

765 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:37:32am

re: #759 MandyManners

In the election on June 3, a quarter of the voters here, 1,114, cast absentee ballots, a percentage that is six times the state average
766 ebed_melech  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:38:03am

Jpost credits Charles
Jpost

767 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:38:14am

re: #763 realwest

Hey dorian - good morning to you, too! I'm doing ok, but could be better I reckon - how's by you today?

I'm feeling pretty dog gone good, the parts for my vette finally arrived and I should have her back on the road Saturday afternoon...

768 FrogMarch  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:38:47am

Good morning all. Happy Friday!

some of this is old news but... The End of Britain: An Ongoing Series

769 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:41:05am

re: #640 Sharmuta

I think reasonable people can be reasoned with, and these ID threads have woken up more than a couple people to the agenda of DI and other creationist groups. If we don't speak out about it, others who would agree with us through reason won't hear anything but the taqiyya.

Just doing my early morning scan-through - this is so true.

This is why it's also important, in my opinion, for those of us who have time and can do it, to stay with a thread until it's played out, to expose the ID'ers and their biases and agenda rather than letting a thread end on their terms.

770 Macker  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:41:19am

F.I.I.F. Fellow LIzards?
At last, MobileMe is up!

771 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:41:31am

re: #756 realwest

Good morning all y'all - from a warm (74 going up to 90 degrees) rainy and anticipating severe T-Storms, Charlotte.

I hope you are all doing well this morning!


i once knew a warm,wet Charlotte...

772 leah  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:41:39am

is that what the gleeful call moderate?

there is another group of US Muslims who have a plan to, by sheer numbers, overtake hospitals and by default make them Muslim hospitals starting in Virginia - another sign that jihad isn't always violent and sharia is creeping along in the states (h/t Creeping Sharia blog)

773 Macker  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:41:47am

Frak! That should be an exclamation point.

/PIMF

774 maddogg  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:42:33am

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but at about 6:20 am central time, Fox and Friends credited Charles Johnson of littlegreenfootballs with breaking the Iranian missile photoshop story.

775 realwest  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:43:56am

re: #748 3 wood Hey my friend, good morning to you!
I hope you read your e-mail as there is an important (at least to me) e-mail there from me!

776 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:44:51am

re: #774 maddogg

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but at about 6:20 am central time, Fox and Friends credited Charles Johnson of littlegreenfootballs with breaking the Iranian missile photoshop story.

Oh those dastardly evil Zionist F&F'ers...............

777 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:45:26am

re: #741 doriangrey

Good morning Lizards... So whats going on in this train wreck? Good god Charles isnt it time for a new thread yet?

I think he must be out getting his iPhone.

778 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:45:33am

re: #758 doriangrey

Charles is no Rock Star..........He is a true musician and a fine Jazz guitarist, do not besmirch his name again by comparing him to a rock musician... ;P


I did no such thing..rockandroll lifestyle was not referencing Charles ..clearly I referred earlier to Charles as a super hero,just for the record...as an aside,there is nothing wrong with the rockandroll..playing it or feeling it...

779 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:45:42am

Good morning Realwest

How's things going?

780 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:46:35am

re: #743 MajorPribluda

You keep going on about credentials. If I cared, I suppose I would ask if you have published your philosophical parallel between Christianity and Marxism anywhere other than MySpace. I stopped at the word "Dialectic", which was in the title, so I confess that I didn't get very far.

Sal: I didn't figure you could. That particular article hasn't been published anywhere else, but one of my articles was published in the annual proceedings of the Semiotic Society of America (print), another one was published in the annual proceedings of the Language Origins Society (print), a third was published by the International Journal of Diversity and Synergy (print), another was published as a Power Essay by Witchvox.com (online) and included in the Internet Book of Shadows (online), another won the Thinking Blogger Award (online)...

Sal: What and where have you been published? Since you asked me, it's only turnabout-fairplay that I ask you.

My credentials are useless here. And that's as far as I'm going with that. So fine, you win. I haven't produced any interminable, incomprehensible papers.

Sal: In your case, I would venture to suggest that incomprehensible isn't so much a function of the paper as of its audience. I would also wonder whether useless is a synonym for nonexistent. And if a few pages is interminable to you, never look at the back of a cereal box while in a grocery store. You might be lost in there for days.

But my marriage is intact, my son is awesome, my house is beautiful, and my wife adores me. I love both of my financially and personally rewarding jobs, and only wish that I could do them both at the same time, even for the same pay. I have had more people work for me than you have studied under. I have spent the night in Bangkok--I have stood upon a glacier. And when I go to work, I do so with a phenomenal sense of humility as well as pride, of purpose and possibility, for the opportunity to make a real difference.

You can keep your papers.

Sal: If I ever want expertise on One Night in Bangkok (wasn't that a song from the rock opera Chess? Why, yes it was):

or how not to freeze my feet when perched on ice, I'll be sure to call you.

781 akak  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:47:27am

It's great that LGF & Webs87 & company got the message out regarding the Iranian lies & misrep's, truly does show how the propaganda war is being left aside by the admin that should really be fighting harder on the issue.

Al-Manar seems to be spreading their wings, every time you see one of their ambulances - it's pallywood time whether it's Afgan, Paki's, Turkey, Somalia etc.

782 razorbacker  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:50:08am

'Zup, Lizards.

So, what's the optimum size for a small town?

I'm thinking about 2K. Spent some time in Bull Shoals lately, and 2K seems about right. Large enough to have at least one good doctor and dentist. No chain restaurants but three good local ones. Spotty cell coverage, and high-speed internet limited to satellite delivered type.

One paved road leading in, but locals assure me that there are 'lots' of unpaved tracks and trails going over the mountain to the highways. There must have been some cops, but I didn't see any. Didn't see any gang-banger types either.

Very few folks actually 'from' there. Met people from Wisconsin, Tennessee, various other United States, New Zealand, Canada, Mexico and one gentleman with a thick, thick accent who hails from Georgia but knows nothing about Atlanta or peaches but seems to know a lot about central Europe.

The downfall for the younger set is, of course, entertainment. Didn't see a good candidate for a crack house nor a single Che t-shirt. And do they really need an Apache (the chopper, not the Amer-Indian) mounted on a pole over the VFW club? Youthful entertainment options seemed to center around muttered "wait until I graduate and get my license."

783 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:50:22am

re: #778 joecitizen

I did no such thing..rockandroll lifestyle was not referencing Charles ..clearly I referred earlier to Charles as a super hero,just for the record...as an aside,there is nothing wrong with the rockandroll..playing it or feeling it...

Note first the smilie of a stuck out tongue in my post, then the link in my nic... ;)

784 realwest  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:52:05am

re: #779 Village Idiot's Apprentice Hey there Village Idiot's Apprentice (VIA)! Things are ok here, thanks, how's by you? And to the extent you can say, WHERE are you?!

785 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:53:09am

{Realwest}
{Doriangrey}

786 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:53:47am

May be old news here, anyone have anything further on this ?
First I've seen it.

Bill Clinton On Unstable ex-POWs

Bill Clinton is speaking at the Aspen Ideas Festival, and he said just now, apropos of almost nothing (actually, during a long peroration on Nelson Mandela): “Every living soul on this planet has some highly-justified anger. Everyone. If you know anybody who was a P.O.W. for any time, they can be going on for years and all of a sudden something will happen that will trigger all those bad memories.”

Not too subtle. Astonishingly, his interviewer, former Clinton Administration official Jane Wales, didn't follow-up. One subject Clinton didn't talk about at all: Barack Obama. He seemed to go out of his way, in fact, not to mention Obama's name. Which, when you think about, calls into question whether the P.O.W. shot was actually an intentional shot at all. On the other hand, I believe that Bill Clinton doesn't say things by accident.

787 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:55:19am

Well damn it, it is once again time for this Lizard to be off and running like a heard of turtles, work awaits and it is shipping day............

788 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:56:00am

re: #785 HoosierHoops

{Realwest}
{Doriangrey}

Morning HoosierHoops...........

789 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:56:14am
790 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:57:19am

re: #789 ploome hineni

wow

/how did we all miss this publication?

Not enough blood in your Crown Royal and RC system..... ;P

791 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:57:38am

re: #784 realwest


Hey hey

Actually sitting on my front porch with the family.
Flew in a few days ago, and in a few hours we head down to Isle Of Palms SC for a week at the Beach House.

After that....back to the land of Sushi.

Thanks again for the help wilth Getting in touch with Carridine.
We had a blast, plus it was interesting talking to him about living in Thailand.
Couldn't believe he came all the way from Bangkok to Patia to meet up.
How you doing my friend?

792 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:58:49am
793 MajorPribluda  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:59:09am

re: #780 Salamantis

Sal: If I ever want expertise on One Night in Bangkok (wasn't that a song from the rock opera Chess? Why, yes it was):

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

or how not to freeze my feet when perched on ice, I'll be sure to call you.

Fair enough. (Wear boots).

794 bolivar  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:59:28am

NOTICE TO ALL LIZARDS

Rush Limbaugh's substitute today will be one of our favorite anti-idiotarians Mark Steyn. Check it out ! This could be a lotta fun!

795 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:59:32am

re: #791 Village Idiot's Apprentice

Hey hey

Actually sitting on my front porch with the family.
Flew in a few days ago, and in a few hours we head down to Isle Of Palms SC for a week at the Beach House.

After that....back to the land of Sushi.

Thanks again for the help wilth Getting in touch with Carridine.
We had a blast, plus it was interesting talking to him about living in Thailand.
Couldn't believe he came all the way from Bangkok to Patia to meet up.
How you doing my friend?

Heh heh heh cue Sal with One night in Bangkok.........

796 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 5:59:59am
797 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:00:49am

re: #796 ploome hineni

my head hurts from reading that title

internation journal of diversity and synergy

I don;t even know what that means

:P

It means you are way to damned sober to be reading that shit... ;P lol...lol...

798 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:01:17am

re: #782 razorbacker

'Zup, Lizards.

So, what's the optimum size for a small town?

I'm thinking about 2K. Spent some time in Bull Shoals lately, and 2K seems about right. Large enough to have at least one good doctor and dentist. No chain restaurants but three good local ones. Spotty cell coverage, and high-speed internet limited to satellite delivered type.

One paved road leading in, but locals assure me that there are 'lots' of unpaved tracks and trails going over the mountain to the highways. There must have been some cops, but I didn't see any. Didn't see any gang-banger types either.

Very few folks actually 'from' there. Met people from Wisconsin, Tennessee, various other United States, New Zealand, Canada, Mexico and one gentleman with a thick, thick accent who hails from Georgia but knows nothing about Atlanta or peaches but seems to know a lot about central Europe.

The downfall for the younger set is, of course, entertainment. Didn't see a good candidate for a crack house nor a single Che t-shirt. And do they really need an Apache (the chopper, not the Amer-Indian) mounted on a pole over the VFW club? Youthful entertainment options seemed to center around muttered "wait until I graduate and get my license."

I've lived in a few places like that and I went bat-shit crazy eventually. It was hard enough moving from Denver where Nordstrom, Neiman Marcus, Saks, Brooks Brothers, et cet.., were just down the road, to where I live now but, at least I have high-speed access to the Internet and those stores' Web sites.

It goes beyond the retail scene, however.

799 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:02:03am

re: #786 SasquatchOnSteroids

May be old news here, anyone have anything further on this ?
First I've seen it.

Bill Clinton On Unstable ex-POWs

That slimey fuck.

800 CIA Reject  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:02:32am
"Well-illustrated and free of theological jargon, they preach that Islam is the one true faith and Darwinism, by undermining religious belief, has led to the discord, atheism, terrorism and extreme political ideologies plaguing the world. ..."

AHA! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!

And the reason for all the ID threads of late...

/Good Morning Everybody!

801 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:02:37am

re: #798 MandyManners

I've lived in a few places like that and I went bat-shit crazy eventually. It was hard enough moving from Denver where Nordstrom, Neiman Marcus, Saks, Brooks Brothers, et cet.., were just down the road, to where I live now but, at least I have high-speed access to the Internet and those stores' Web sites.

It goes beyond the retail scene, however.

Oh dear the thought of Mandy cut off from shopping sends shivers down my spine... lol...lol...lol...

802 razorbacker  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:02:43am

re: #794 bolivar

NOTICE TO ALL LIZARDS

Rush Limbaugh's substitute today will be one of our favorite anti-idiotarians Mark Steyn. Check it out ! This could be a lotta fun!

I certainly hope that will be true. While Rushbo himself sometimes fails to satisfy, Mr. Steyn is always full of sweet, warm gooey goodness.

803 christheprofessor  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:02:43am

re: #796 ploome hineni

my head hurts from reading that title

internation journal of diversity and synergy

I don;t even know what that means

:P

I'm speculating that it's part and parcel with the bullshit multi-culti scam that diversity makes us stronger, more interesting, etc...

/the dolts have probably never heard the term balkanization...

804 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:03:50am
805 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:05:03am

re: #783 doriangrey

Note first the smilie of a stuck out tongue in my post, then the link in my nic... ;)

noted..as for the link,not exactly my cup of rockandroll..but thanks

806 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:05:06am

re: #795 doriangrey

Wow...that was a blast from the past.

Hey...Time to finish packing so we can hit the road.
Take care, and tell everyone I said hi.

807 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:05:44am

re: #799 MandyManners

Couldn't have said it any better than that, lol.

808 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:06:38am

re: #801 doriangrey

Oh dear the thought of Mandy cut off from shopping sends shivers down my spine... lol...lol...lol...

I'm not big into shopping as in going into a store and browsing. I know what I want and go into a store as if I'm on a mission. Well, I am on a mission.

809 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:07:04am

re: #786 SasquatchOnSteroids

May be old news here, anyone have anything further on this ?
First I've seen it.

Bill Clinton On Unstable ex-POWs


unbelievable. does this dick really think that we'll let him get away with this?

810 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:07:06am

re: #802 razorbacker

I certainly hope that will be true. While Rushbo himself sometimes fails to satisfy, Mr. Steyn is always full of sweet, warm gooey goodness.

Not gonna' go near that one.

811 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:07:10am

re: #805 joecitizen

noted..as for the link,not exactly my cup of rockandroll..but thanks

Just trying to make sure you saw the tongue in cheek humor in my post. I greatly admire Charles skills as a guitar player and being no slouch myself in that department that should tell you something...

812 WriterMom  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:07:18am
813 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:07:42am

re: #804 ploome hineni

good morning, MM

Morning, ph. How's it hanging? Did you get the A/C fixed?

814 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:07:44am

re: #792 ploome hineni

google missed it also

:(

Sal: Well, it must be defunct now, but it did exist, as you can readily see by going here:

[Link: www.ala.org...]

and scrolling down to this:

• Diversity Resources Online. This is a service of the National Association for Diversity Management, the resource center for information on diversity in education, human resources, the public sector, and the society at large. It provides opportunities for professional networking, research, and global dialogue. It also includes the online journal International Journal of Diversity & Synergy. Access: [Link: www.nadm.org...]

The nadm link now leads to spam site; that makes me think that the mag's gone under.

815 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:07:55am

re: #789 ploome hineni

wow

/how did we all miss this publication?


Blinders! heh

816 doriangrey  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:07:56am

re: #806 Village Idiot's Apprentice

Wow...that was a blast from the past.

Hey...Time to finish packing so we can hit the road.
Take care, and tell everyone I said hi.

Heh heh heh great song though aint it...

817 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:10:08am

re: #807 SasquatchOnSteroids

Couldn't have said it any better than that, lol.

He was touching on PTSD, and I gotta' wonder about the PTSD he probably helped various women have after raping/molesting them.

818 3 wood  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:10:22am

Folks, I've just reveived am emil from my good friend Jammiewearingfool. His sister died last night (long story), but he will be scarce for a while.

So I would appreciate it if we can all put aside our petty bullcrap sniping at each other for a few minutes and wish him well and send good thoughts and prayers his way.

I will take care of sending flowers whenever I find out anything on arrangements.

*Prayers for Jammie, late sister, and family*

819 joecitizen  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:10:25am

re: #796 ploome hineni

my head hurts from reading that title

internation journal of diversity and synergy

I don;t even know what that means

:P


it is a psuedo-intellectual umbrella..

820 Kenneth  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:11:54am

re: #818 3 wood

Prayers for Jammie & family. I am so sorry for his loss.

821 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:12:04am
822 realwest  Fri, Jul 11, 2008 6:14:25am

Hey all y'all - sorry if anyone wrote to me - but TimeWarner Cable apparently doesn't even like wet ground - totally lost my cable connection for about 10 minutes or so.