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War on the Horizon

Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 8:58:51 am PDT

Coming soon: a replay of the last Lebanon War. And the sequel will be much more devastating—on both sides: Hizbullah moves into ‘every town’.

Hizbullah is bolstering its presence in south Lebanon villages with non-Shi’ite majorities by buying land and using it to build military positions and store missiles and launchers, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

The decision to build infrastructure in non-Shi’ite villages - where Hizbullah has less support - is part of the group’s post-war strategy under which it has mostly abandoned the “nature reserves,” forested areas in southern Lebanon where it kept most of its Katyusha rocket launchers before the Second Lebanon War.

Behind the change is the mandate given to UNIFIL by the United Nations after the war in 2006. According to the mandate, the peacekeeping force can patrol freely throughout southern Lebanon but cannot enter villages or cities without being accompanied by soldiers from the Lebanese Armed Forces, which regularly tips off Hizbullah ahead of the raids.

News of the change in Hizbullah strategy came as Israel is trying to persuade the UN to strengthen UNIFIL’s mandate to give it the right to patrol the villages freely. “Hizbullah is moving into every town that it can,” a senior defense official told the Post. “This is in order to evade UNIFIL detection.”

285 comments

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1 ggt  7/18/08 8:59:34 am reply quote

Everything old is new again?

2 Occasional Reader  7/18/08 9:01:07 am reply quote
Israel is trying to persuade the UN to strengthen UNIFIL’s mandate to give it the right to patrol the villages freely.

The fox isn't doing an adequate job guarding the henhouse. Solution: Get more foxes.

3 JamesTKirk  7/18/08 9:01:26 am reply quote

This is also to ensure plenty of human shields against Israeli responses.

4 cicero05  7/18/08 9:01:45 am reply quote

Olmert's legacy.

5 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  7/18/08 9:01:46 am reply quote

I wonder what, if anything, the tipping point will be for Israel?

6 quickjustice  7/18/08 9:02:03 am reply quote

So all that administration diplomatic "pressure" on Syria and Iran just isn't working? Maybe Obama can remedy this when he confers with Fatah! ;-)

7 BGOH  7/18/08 9:02:14 am reply quote

The Israelis have to be extra thrilled with that "prisoner exchange" upon reading this news.

And are the U.N. peacekeepers actually helping to build Hezbollah's infrastructure? Would anyone be surprised?

8 Kaitian868  7/18/08 9:02:30 am reply quote

This certainly didn't last long. Is anyone surprised?

9 VegasRick  7/18/08 9:02:48 am reply quote

re: #2 Occasional Reader

The fox isn't doing an adequate job guarding the henhouse. Solution: Get more foxes.

Hire the pig.

10 Shr_Nfr  7/18/08 9:02:51 am reply quote

The one redeeming aspect of Israel taking out Iran's nukes later this year is that they will also have to take out Syria.

11 _RememberTonyC  7/18/08 9:03:00 am reply quote

when that monster was released yesterday and met with nazi-rallah, why wasn't he carrying a GPS tracking chip to guide a missile right up nazi-rallah's ass?

12 vxbush  7/18/08 9:03:13 am reply quote

GOOD NIGHT. Why on earth are the UN forces required to stay outside of the towns without Lebanese troops?

"Please, sir, I'd like to come in."
"Is Achmed with you?"
"No, but I think you may have--"
"Forget it!"

Sheesh.

13 debutaunt  7/18/08 9:03:23 am reply quote

The UN is involved - it will all turn out just great.

14 bosforus  7/18/08 9:04:45 am reply quote

I'd rather see a sunset on the horizon.

15 yma o hyd  7/18/08 9:05:14 am reply quote

re: #13 debutaunt

The UN is involved - it will all turn out just great.

Yep - except for Israel.

16 Victrola  7/18/08 9:06:00 am reply quote

If Israel had pursued the war 2 years ago when they had Hezbollah by the throat and the blessings of the US, none of this need be happening. Disgusting.

17 Ziggy  7/18/08 9:06:36 am reply quote

The picture of UNIFIL troops saluting the coffin of Imad Mughniyeh, as it passed by, leads me to the conclusion that Hezbollah doesn't need to hide from them. As I said yesterday, when the shooting starts I hope Olmert's not in charge and UNIFIL is considered legitimate targets. If UNIFIL allows Hezbollah to re-arm and act with impunity then they are complicit. Those pretty blue helmets are great long distance targets.

18 scott in east bay  7/18/08 9:07:23 am reply quote

Hmmmm, maybe Israel needs to do a lightning invasion of Lebanon up to the Litani. Secure the river and turn the force south, obliterating Hizzbollah step by step. Lots of civilian casualities, but, hey, I'm really just so sorry about that. When you lie with fleas....

19 lawhawk  7/18/08 9:07:30 am reply quote

Evade UNIFIL detection? Are you kidding me? Hizbullah makes no secret of its intentions or its numbers. Hizbullah thugs returned to sender by Israel got a sendoff from UNIFIL forces with salutes as well.

Of course, that's only when Hizbullah wants people to see their numbers.

When it comes time to war, the uniforms get thrown back in the closet, out come the civis and they hide behind civilians at every turn as human shields so that they can inflate the body count when Israel picks them off.

20 realwest  7/18/08 9:07:46 am reply quote

Brief OT - CHARLES - asked you this on DT just as you were putting up this thread, but regarding
George Slivers - was he by anychance another incarnation of "Octopuss"?!
Sorry for the OT Y'all, we now return to the regularly scheduled thread!

21 Occasional Reader  7/18/08 9:07:56 am reply quote

re: #3 JamesTKirk

This is also to ensure plenty of human shields against Israeli responses.

What?! Sir, are you implying that Hizballah has some sort of nefarious use in mind for the Hassan Nasrallah Elementary School and Launch Pad? Shame on you!

22 6pat6  7/18/08 9:07:58 am reply quote
Hizbullah is bolstering its presence in south Lebanon villages with non-Shi’ite majorities by buying land and using it to build military positions and store missiles and launchers,

Buying land? So, is this a change from their usual tactic of simply taking over homes and businesses to stage their attacks from? Somehow, I doubt they are buying anything but weapons and ammo.

23 Rogue198  7/18/08 9:08:47 am reply quote

Going to be interesting to see what happens if B. Hussein is in the WH when the sith hits the fan this time.

24 lawhawk  7/18/08 9:08:57 am reply quote

Add to that the fact that Hizbullah actually dominates Lebanon politically and holds a veto power gives credence to the position I've taken that Lebanon is de facto Hizbullahland. The terrorists hold sway over the country politically, and the March 14 movement has failed.

Syria and Iran love every moment of this because Israel is in their sights courtesy of their proxy, and Olmert's failings.

25 ggt  7/18/08 9:09:21 am reply quote

time for me to go

Have a great day all!

26 varmint  7/18/08 9:09:26 am reply quote

finally saw a photo of Samir Kuntar. wow. it's like Hitler and Adam Carolla had a child they were really disappointed in.

27 Paul  7/18/08 9:09:53 am reply quote

We can look forward to more adventures in photo shopping.

28 buzzsawmonkey  7/18/08 9:09:58 am reply quote

re: #22 6pat6

If they are "buying land," that is interesting.

Why is it somehow legitimate for Hezbollah to buy land, but not legitimate for Jews to do so to build towns in the West Bank--or Gaza?

29 debutaunt  7/18/08 9:10:47 am reply quote

re: #28 buzzsawmonkey

If they are "buying land," that is interesting.

Why is it somehow legitimate for Hezbollah to buy land, but not legitimate for Jews to do so to build towns in the West Bank--or Gaza?

The rulebook covers that quite clearly.

30 abolitionist  7/18/08 9:11:04 am reply quote

Several months ago, one of the retiring UNIFIL leaders said (paraphrasing):

It's such a lovely area. I'd like to vacation here with my family sometime in the future, insh'Allah.

(Posted a link at the time.)

31 jcm  7/18/08 9:11:35 am reply quote

If Olmert is in power it will be the same old thing.

Hope Israel gets someone with cojones in office before kickoff.

32 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 9:11:39 am reply quote

Good. This will finally give Israel the opportunity to wipe them out completely, and show the world what Hiz'b'amalek really is.

/someone eventually on this thread.

33 Opinionated  7/18/08 9:11:48 am reply quote

When Israel saved Blair, I wrote the following:

As is usual in such circumstances, Blair will thank Israel by rededicating himself to help the ''poor suffering Palestinians".

Today:

Quartet Middle East envoy Tony Blair says a two-state solution is the only way to solve the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

Blair said Friday he wanted to go to Gaza to tell people there that "you are not alone."

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

So now we know. When Israel engages in the next certain war with Hezbullah, and as sure as day, when Hamas in Gaza joins in rocketing Israel, the Barbarians are not alone.

34 6pat6  7/18/08 9:11:52 am reply quote

Bet Olmert is proud of what he has accomplished. Wasn't the trade of three live terrorists for the bodies of two dead Israeli soldiers supposed to bring "peace"...guess it did, for about fifteen seconds.

I sure as hell hope that when the Lebanon II war kicks off, that the Israeli forces kick the shit out of the "pailistinian" forces of Hizb'allah.

35 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 9:12:31 am reply quote

re: #28 buzzsawmonkey

If they are "buying land," that is interesting.

Why is it somehow legitimate for Hezbollah to buy land, but not legitimate for Jews to do so to build towns in the West Bank--or Gaza?

The same reason that Israeli Arabs are residents and Jewish Palestinians are "settlers".

36 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:13:06 am reply quote
37 Dianna  7/18/08 9:13:25 am reply quote

If I were someone in South Lebanon right now, and Hezbollah moved in, I'd find a way to move out, or at least get my kids out. It's not going to matter if you're pro- or anti- anyone. You're going to be in the crossfire, and I hadn't noticed that it mattered very much to the victim who killed them in a war, or if they were not deliberately targeted.

Time to run.

38 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:13:41 am reply quote

re: #36 MandyManners

My favorite photograph of Kantar.

Oops! Hat tip: WrathofG-d.

39 zombie  7/18/08 9:13:46 am reply quote

The UN soldiers are too busy saluting Hezbollah martyrs to actually do anything useful.

40 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:14:04 am reply quote

re: #37 Dianna

If I were someone in South Lebanon right now, and Hezbollah moved in, I'd find a way to move out, or at least get my kids out. It's not going to matter if you're pro- or anti- anyone. You're going to be in the crossfire, and I hadn't noticed that it mattered very much to the victim who killed them in a war, or if they were not deliberately targeted.

Time to run.

Run to where?

41 Kosh's Shadow  7/18/08 9:14:20 am reply quote

And it will be a nasty war

(IsraelNN.com) Arab reports indicate that Hizbullah is preparing to arm its rockets with chemical warheads and to build extensive fortifications. Defense Minister Ehud Barak blames the Syrians, while Prime Minister Ehud Olmert asks the United Nations to do something.


(from this article)

Of course, if the chemical weapons go off inside Lebanon, Israel will be blamed.
If they go off in Israel, and Israel retaliates by flattening Southern Lebanon, they'll be criticized.
I hope they get rid of Olmerde soon

42 Ziggy  7/18/08 9:14:21 am reply quote

Carl from Jerusalem's blog site had interesting links to Lebanese bloggers who clearly indicate that Hezbo's are on a war footing. Apparently everyone knows this but doesn't give a shit. And when Israel finally opens up a can of whoop-ass, the world will once again cry about a disproportionate response. Well, this time I sure as shit hope it's completely disproportionate... and overwhelming. However, I have my doubts.

43 Iron Fist  7/18/08 9:14:50 am reply quote

re: #36 MandyManners,

He's showing off his armpit. How quaint.

44 jamgarr  7/18/08 9:14:54 am reply quote

re: #36 MandyManners

My favorite photograph of Kantar.

Sort of a cross between Hitler and Gomez Addams

45 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 9:15:05 am reply quote

If Israel weren't occupying Lebanon.....oh wait, nevermind.

46 6pat6  7/18/08 9:15:08 am reply quote

I would love to see the day when someone in a US Administration would stand up in a press conference and explain to the world that the whole idea of "Palistine" is a myth.

47 Opinionated  7/18/08 9:15:11 am reply quote

re: #36 MandyManners

My favorite photograph of Kantar.

Can also serve a purpose on the Darwinism threads. Because that is proof even Buchanan can't ignore.

48 yitzy  7/18/08 9:15:11 am reply quote

OT:

A Gut Shabbos to all the Jewzards!

Have a great weekend everybody else! I'm hittin' the road.

49 laZardo  7/18/08 9:15:58 am reply quote

Still seeing the establishment of the I.R.P. on the horizon, too. Sense bat, please and many thanks.

On the lighter side of things, just watched The Dark Knight. Fecking awesome.

50 yma o hyd  7/18/08 9:16:01 am reply quote

re: #33 Opinionated

When Israel saved Blair, I wrote the following:

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

So now we know. When Israel engages in the next certain war with Hezbullah, and as sure as day, when Hamas in Gaza joins in rocketing Israel, the Barbarians are not alone.

Aww - but Tony Blair will sure feel Israel's pain!

(Pity he won't do anything about it, either now or then, except emote ...)

51 jcm  7/18/08 9:16:25 am reply quote

re: #36 MandyManners

My favorite photograph of Kantar.

Just a little off the ends of that 'stash and we'd have a dead ringer.

52 crown_of_feathers  7/18/08 9:16:31 am reply quote

I begin to think that we are truly heading toward the apocalypse, once Obama wins in November.

Israel will need to strike on many fronts at once, and it is going to be really, really ugly.

May G-d give the Israeli people strength against the hellish nightmare people who surround her.

53 lawhawk  7/18/08 9:16:32 am reply quote

re: #42 Ziggy

With Olmert in charge, Israel's military will not unleash the full fury it is capable of, precisely because Olmert will concern himself with the appearance of a disproportionate response.

I have repeatedly argued that there is no such thing as a disproportionate response in war. The only response to an attack is to crush your enemy and defeat them. Anything short of that is a failure to respond with the appropriate level of force in the right places.

54 laZardo  7/18/08 9:16:44 am reply quote

re: #42 Ziggy

I would actually guess that if Israel made its "disproportionate response," the UN will probably fire off a few REALLY angry statements.

What actually happens next would be Israel's decision.

55 zulubaby  7/18/08 9:17:07 am reply quote
56 nyc redneck  7/18/08 9:17:14 am reply quote

re: #36 MandyManners

My favorite photograph of Kantar.

he's a psychopath. look at his eyes.

57 EC Marm  7/18/08 9:17:16 am reply quote

Well, I'm not a genetic epidemiologist who publishes about five 1st author manuscripts a year, but this can't be good.

58 6pat6  7/18/08 9:17:30 am reply quote

Once bullets, missiles, and rockets start flying, the UN "forces" will run like scared little girls into the night. The whole idea of UN "forces" is like sending snails into a boxing ring.

59 Kenneth  7/18/08 9:17:44 am reply quote

IRAQ WAR DESERTERS Deported From Canada & Jailed

You can have them back now. See that they get a bath & a proper haircut.

60 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 9:17:45 am reply quote

re: #41 Kosh's Shadow

Not that the Country or Olmert needs one (as they have failed the others) but if they are attacked by chemical weapons and do not react with an overwhelming, gloves off, response, it will truly be a sign that the present Israel is lost.

It has always been understood, and explained that: Jews will not be gassed again!

61 David IV of Georgia  7/18/08 9:17:53 am reply quote

I hope they have stockpiled stuffed animals and other toys for photo-ops. Have they built any "baby milk plants" yet?

Sometimes I wish we'd just carpet bomb them. But that would be as unethical as the things they do.

62 realwest  7/18/08 9:17:56 am reply quote

re: #24 lawhawk Good afternoon! All the more reason to "wake up" Iran and Syria.
Ya know, we COULD withdraw our troops from Iraq through both Iran and Syria!

63 BGOH  7/18/08 9:17:57 am reply quote

re: #34 6pat6

Bet Olmert is proud of what he has accomplished. Wasn't the trade of three live terrorists for the bodies of two dead Israeli soldiers supposed to bring "peace"...guess it did, for about fifteen seconds.

I sure as hell hope that when the Lebanon II war kicks off, that the Israeli forces kick the shit out of the "pailistinian" forces of Hizb'allah.

Ban Ki Moon said that he hoped to see "more" such prisoner exchanges in the future. I don't find it surprising that even the U.N. Sec. Gen. wants to see Hezbollah's embittered forces expanded as much as possible before any further fighting breaks out. I believe it was five Lebanese prisoners, too...

Why haven't Israeli citizens ridden Olmert out of town on a rail yet? Am I missing something? Does he make awesome pancakes, or something?

64 Sunlight  7/18/08 9:18:08 am reply quote

re: #4 cicero05

Olmert's legacy.

I'm always amazed at people blaming blaming Olmert. In evaluating why that is, I think it may be easier to scapegoat someone like Olmert than to maybe have to do something about travesties like the U.S. or 1701, etc etc.

This is a developing theory in my head after living through the anti-military surge of the '70s, which still persists among many of our friends. If the military can be slimed, then these people feel noble eschewing service for themselves and do their best to stigmatize service so severely that they won't have to deal with the feelings that come from having a deployed kid. Or losing a kid.

Lucky for all of us, enough young people are ignoring the anti-Olmert and anti-military tripe and are stepping up to serve.

Olmert does not do the terror thing. Nor does the military. Look at the pictures of that guy Samir Kuntar with his zieg heil salute... The problem is not Olmert.

65 akak  7/18/08 9:18:10 am reply quote

Lebanon needs to be listed as a terror state.

66 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:18:11 am reply quote

re: #43 Iron Fist

,

He's showing off his armpit. How quaint.

Any chance he could be Hitler's spawn?

67 Kosh's Shadow  7/18/08 9:18:17 am reply quote

re: #42 Ziggy

Carl from Jerusalem's blog site had interesting links to Lebanese bloggers who clearly indicate that Hezbo's are on a war footing. Apparently everyone knows this but doesn't give a shit. And when Israel finally opens up a can of whoop-ass, the world will once again cry about a disproportionate response. Well, this time I sure as shit hope it's completely disproportionate... and overwhelming. However, I have my doubts.

Seriously, if Hizballah uses chemical warheads, Israel should nuke one city in each of Lebanon, Iran, and Syria, and tell them for each warhead, another city will be nuked.
And then, they should tell the UN to pay damages; they were supposed to prevent this. If I were the US president, and this happened, I'd confiscate all UN property in the US until they paid as well, and then kick the UN out.

68 Leonidas Hoplite  7/18/08 9:18:20 am reply quote

McCain Presidency = Israel Survives
No-A-Bama Presidency + Negotiations + UN Deliberations + Consultations with anti-semitic Europe = ?

69 guftafs  7/18/08 9:18:25 am reply quote

Could someone please make Olmert resign, but quickly? Rarely have so many so little to thank for from one man.

70 6pat6  7/18/08 9:18:42 am reply quote

re: #53 lawhawk

I have repeatedly argued that there is no such thing as a disproportionate response in war. The only response to an attack is to crush your enemy and defeat them. Anything short of that is a failure to respond with the appropriate level of force in the right places.

Absolutely friggin' spot on!

71 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:18:50 am reply quote

re: #44 jamgarr

Sort of a cross between Hitler and Gomez Addams

I hadn't thought about that.

72 laZardo  7/18/08 9:18:53 am reply quote

re: #62 realwest

Depends on whether we want more troops in Iraq from Afghanistan or vice versa. Either way, there's only one direction they'll have to go. (;

73 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:19:30 am reply quote

re: #47 Opinionated

Can also serve a purpose on the Darwinism threads. Because that is proof even Buchanan can't ignore.

Hell, Buchanan would fall down in worship.

74 laZardo  7/18/08 9:19:30 am reply quote

re: #68 Leonidas Hoplite

No-A-Bama Presidency + Negotiations + UN Deliberations + Consultations with anti-semitic Europe = ?

See #49.

75 Iron Fist  7/18/08 9:19:38 am reply quote

re: #66 MandyManners,

Too fat. He looks mighty plump for someone who just got out of prison. The horrible Israelis must have overfed him.

76 yma o hyd  7/18/08 9:19:39 am reply quote

re: #62 realwest

Good afternoon! All the more reason to "wake up" Iran and Syria.
Ya know, we COULD withdraw our troops from Iraq through both Iran and Syria!

What a brilliant idea!

77 jamgarr  7/18/08 9:19:55 am reply quote

re: #71 MandyManners

I hadn't thought about that.


That's what I'm here for.

78 realwest  7/18/08 9:20:12 am reply quote

re: #41 Kosh's Shadow
Huh, if chem weapons go off in Israel, I hope Israel retaliates by flattening Lebanon AND Syria.

79 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:20:15 am reply quote

re: #51 jcm

Just a little off the ends of that 'stash and we'd have a dead ringer.

I think he's trimmed it intentionally.

80 laZardo  7/18/08 9:20:24 am reply quote

re: #71 MandyManners

Such a comparison has Raul Julia rolling in his grave.

/whatever happened to the guy who played Uncle Fester though?

81 6pat6  7/18/08 9:20:28 am reply quote

re: #59 Kenneth

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll get the proper reception at Fort Levenworth, Kansas, as chicken-shit, deserting, whiny bastards deserve.

82 guftafs  7/18/08 9:20:51 am reply quote

re: #53 lawhawk

I have repeatedly argued that there is no such thing as a disproportionate response in war. The only response to an attack is to crush your enemy and defeat them. Anything short of that is a failure to respond with the appropriate level of force in the right places.

Amen.

83 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:21:04 am reply quote

re: #56 nyc redneck

he's a psychopath. look at his eyes.

Noooooooooo.

84 Opinionated  7/18/08 9:21:16 am reply quote
The government knows for a fact that Wednesday's deal will lead directly to the murder of more Israelis and to the abduction and murder of more IDF soldiers. It simply doesn't care. The Olmert-Livni-Barak-Yishai government doesn't care about protecting the public. It only cares about tomorrow's headlines. And Wednesday's deal allowed Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Industry, Trade and Labor Minister Eli Yishai to give speeches where they waxed poetic about Israel's loyalty to its dead soldiers and to have their pictures taken as they leaned somberly over Regev's and Goldwasser's flag-draped coffins.

They looked so impressive in those photos that it was easy for the public to miss what they had just done. The public could have easily missed the fact that in their "deeply moral, and patriotic" decision to trade Samir Kuntar - who murdered four-year-old Einat Haran by crushing her skull on a rock after he executed her father Danny in front of her - for Regev's and Goldwasser's body parts, these politicians signed the death warrants of untold numbers of Israelis. And if they go forward with their pledge to release a thousand terrorists for IDF hostage Gilad Schalit, they will sign the death warrants of still more Israeli men, women and children.

Caroline Glick

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

85 Iron Fist  7/18/08 9:21:28 am reply quote

re: #79 MandyManners,

It looks like he's dyed it. It doesn't fit to his face well at all. Kind of like a slug crawled up under his nose and died.

86 jcm  7/18/08 9:21:29 am reply quote

re: #79 MandyManners

I think he's trimmed it intentionally.



Remember the Pali's best seller.

87 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:21:31 am reply quote

re: #57 EC Marm

Well, I'm not a genetic epidemiologist who publishes about five 1st author manuscripts a year, but this can't be good.

ROFLMAO!

88 Ziggy  7/18/08 9:21:32 am reply quote

re: #53 lawhawk
I couldn't agree more. It kind of makes me sick/sad. You can't have peace until someone achieves victory. The longer total victory is put off, the more costly it becomes.

89 buzzsawmonkey  7/18/08 9:21:33 am reply quote

re: #60 WrathofG-d

Hey, Wrath, an OT for you:

From here through here, an exchange you may have missed.

90 6pat6  7/18/08 9:22:13 am reply quote

re: #84 Opinionated

Unfortunately, you are right.

91 Sunlight  7/18/08 9:22:23 am reply quote

re: #3 JamesTKirk

This is also to ensure plenty of human shields against Israeli responses.

That's why it doesn't seem like a good idea to put U.S. govt people in Tehran right now... they become a human shield or hostage deterrent to future decisions.

92 MJ  7/18/08 9:22:27 am reply quote

This is Iran moving it's troops in Lebanon.

Good article in the NYT by Benny Morris on the Israeli strike on Iran since the US is in full appeasment mode thanks to Condi Rice and George Bush:

The New York Times, July 18, 2008

Op-Ed Contributor

Using Bombs to Stave Off War

By BENNY MORRIS

Li-On, Israel

/www.nytimes.com/2008/07/18/opinion/18morris.html? emc=tnt&tntemail1=y


ISRAEL will almost surely attack Iran’s nuclear sites in the next four to seven months — and the leaders in Washington and even Tehran should hope that the attack will be successful enough to cause at least a significant delay in the Iranian production schedule, if not complete destruction, of that country’s nuclear program. Because if the attack fails, the Middle East will almost certainly face a nuclear war — either through a subsequent pre-emptive Israeli nuclear strike or a nuclear exchange shortly after Iran gets the bomb.

It is in the interest of neither Iran nor the United States (nor, for that matter, the rest of the world) that Iran be savaged by a nuclear strike, or that both Israel and Iran suffer such a fate. We know what would ensue: a traumatic destabilization of the Middle East with resounding political and military consequences around the globe, serious injury to the West’s oil supply and radioactive pollution of the earth’s atmosphere and water.

But should Israel’s conventional assault fail to significantly harm or stall the Iranian program, a ratcheting up of the Iranian-Israeli conflict to a nuclear level will most likely follow. Every intelligence agency in the world believes the Iranian program is geared toward making weapons, not to the peaceful applications of nuclear power. And, despite the current talk of additional economic sanctions, everyone knows that such measures have so far led nowhere and are unlikely to be applied with sufficient scope to cause Iran real pain, given Russia’s and China’s continued recalcitrance and Western Europe’s (and America’s) ambivalence in behavior, if not in rhetoric. Western intelligence agencies agree that Iran will reach the “point of no return” in acquiring the capacity to produce nuclear weapons in one to four years.

Which leaves the world with only one option if it wishes to halt Iran’s march toward nuclear weaponry: the military option, meaning an aerial assault by either the United States or Israel. Clearly, America has the conventional military capacity to do the job, which would involve a protracted air assault against Iran’s air defenses followed by strikes on the nuclear sites themselves. But, as a result of the Iraq imbroglio, and what is rapidly turning into the Afghan imbroglio, the American public has little enthusiasm for wars in the Islamic lands. This curtails the White House’s ability to begin yet another major military campaign in pursuit of a goal that is not seen as a vital national interest by many Americans....

Read the rest at
/www.nytimes.com/2008/07/18/opinion/18morris.html? emc=tnt&tntemail1=y

93 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:22:31 am reply quote

re: #59 Kenneth

IRAQ WAR DESERTERS Deported From Canada & Jailed

You can have them back now. See that they get a bath & a proper haircut.

Oh, the stench leaps from the monitor.

94 Opinionated  7/18/08 9:22:42 am reply quote

re: #73 MandyManners

Hell, Buchanan would fall down in worship.

But after he returns the Nazi salute, he still may notice the Ape features.

95 realwest  7/18/08 9:22:43 am reply quote

re: #72 laZardo 'tis true!
Although I don't think a land war with Iran IN Iran is going to go well for us; remember in the Iran/Iraq conflict, Iran sent it's little children - 8-12 years old, running through Iraq's minefields to "clean them" for Iran's troops.
Course, if we hadda use our Air Force and Naval Power to "protect" the ground troops on their way out.................!

96 6pat6  7/18/08 9:23:20 am reply quote

re: #85 Iron Fist

It looks like he's dyed it. It doesn't fit to his face well at all. Kind of like a slug crawled up under his nose and died.

Or, a slug crawled up his ass, multiplied, then crawled out his nose, then died

97 Ziggy  7/18/08 9:23:48 am reply quote

re: #54 laZardo

As I said earlier, I would consider the UN a legitimate target in Lebanon.

98 realwest  7/18/08 9:24:04 am reply quote

BTW, I haven't had the chance to read the whole thread, but is anyone else as sick as I am of asking Israel to be doing the dirty work (especially vis a vis Syria and Iran) that the US ought to damn well do itself?

99 nyc redneck  7/18/08 9:24:05 am reply quote

re: #53 lawhawk

With Olmert in charge, Israel's military will not unleash the full fury it is capable of, precisely because Olmert will concern himself with the appearance of a disproportionate response.

I have repeatedly argued that there is no such thing as a disproportionate response in war. The only response to an attack is to crush your enemy and defeat them. Anything short of that is a failure to respond with the appropriate level of force in the right places.

it is putting off the inevitable. too many people making decisions and oblivious to the worse hell they are creating.

100 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:24:20 am reply quote

re: #75 Iron Fist

,

Too fat. He looks mighty plump for someone who just got out of prison. The horrible Israelis must have overfed him.

Like a goose.

101 Kenneth  7/18/08 9:24:56 am reply quote

re: #65 akak

Lebanon needs to be listed as a terror state.

Lebanon has been transformed into a "suicide bomber state"... the Iranian/Syrian strategy is to "detonate" Lebanon as a means of attacking Israel.

102 jcm  7/18/08 9:25:00 am reply quote

re: #53 lawhawk

With Olmert in charge, Israel's military will not unleash the full fury it is capable of, precisely because Olmert will concern himself with the appearance of a disproportionate response.

I have repeatedly argued that there is no such thing as a disproportionate response in war. The only response to an attack is to crush your enemy and defeat them. Anything short of that is a failure to respond with the appropriate level of force in the right places.



But once war is forced upon us, there is no other alternative than to apply every available means to bring it to a swift end. War's very object is victory, not prolonged indecision.

In war there is no substitute for victory.
Douglas McAruthur, Farwell Speech to Congress April 19, 1951.

103 yma o hyd  7/18/08 9:25:29 am reply quote

re: #89 buzzsawmonkey

Heh.
I loved reading that, too!
Enjoyed it as well ...!

104 Iron Fist  7/18/08 9:25:58 am reply quote

re: #100 MandyManners,

Goose of Peace? The L³eftists will have an orgasm.

105 Occasional Reader  7/18/08 9:26:25 am reply quote

re: #100 MandyManners

Like a goose.

So that's why he's goose-stepping... it's Israel's fault.

106 Ziggy  7/18/08 9:26:32 am reply quote

re: #67 Kosh's Shadow

Seriously, if Hizballah uses chemical warheads, Israel should nuke one city in each of Lebanon, Iran, and Syria, and tell them for each warhead, another city will be nuked.
And then, they should tell the UN to pay damages; they were supposed to prevent this. If I were the US president, and this happened, I'd confiscate all UN property in the US until they paid as well, and then kick the UN out.

The "nucular" option scares me, I certainly agree with flattening several cities. Have a plan to kill everyone.

107 Sunlight  7/18/08 9:26:45 am reply quote

re: #53 lawhawk

With Olmert in charge, Israel's military will not unleash the full fury it is capable of, precisely because Olmert will concern himself with the appearance of a disproportionate response.

I have repeatedly argued that there is no such thing as a disproportionate response in war. The only response to an attack is to crush your enemy and defeat them. Anything short of that is a failure to respond with the appropriate level of force in the right places.

But remember they have Ehud Barak now, not the labor organizer (forgot his name) as Defense Minister. Big difference. Plus Ehud Barak won't be swayed by lefty rhetoric because he already tried it all and got kicked in the shins for it.

109 laZardo  7/18/08 9:27:35 am reply quote

re: #95 realwest

That's what the "diplomats" we're sending in are for.

/note the quote bunnies.

110 opnion  7/18/08 9:27:58 am reply quote

Israel., had better take care of it's business before the next U.S presidential inaugeration

111 Ziggy  7/18/08 9:28:55 am reply quote

re: #98 realwest

BTW, I haven't had the chance to read the whole thread, but is anyone else as sick as I am of asking Israel to be doing the dirty work (especially vis a vis Syria and Iran) that the US ought to damn well do itself?

Won't happen right before a Presidential election (but I agree with you)

112 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 9:29:07 am reply quote

re: #89 buzzsawmonkey

Hey, Wrath, an OT for you:

From here through here, an exchange you may have missed.

I did miss it and it looks interesting but unfortunately at the moment I don't have time to read it. I'll try to later though.

113 Opinionated  7/18/08 9:29:12 am reply quote

Lebanon is not a full fledged terrorist state. Backed by Iran.

It continues to have the full backing of the Bush Administration.

The new Lebanon

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

114 Diamond Bullet  7/18/08 9:29:26 am reply quote

re: #36 MandyManners

My favorite photograph of Kantar.

Wow. With pure evil stamped on his face like that, it's no wonder Hezbollah was so happy to get him back. He's like their version of Santa Claus or something.

115 Kenneth  7/18/08 9:29:48 am reply quote
116 taxfreekiller  7/18/08 9:30:03 am reply quote

Lebanon

To Whom It May Concerns lives,

Before you go to the last moment that will be to late.

Check out the after action report of such a thing in an urban setting.

[Link: historynet.com...]

there are other sites, the photos should help your decision making.

Yours true

taxfreekiller

117 Opinionated  7/18/08 9:30:12 am reply quote

re: #113 Opinionated

Corrected

Lebanon is now a full fledged terrorist state. Backed by Iran.

It continues to have the full backing of the Bush Administration.

The new Lebanon

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

118 Iron Fist  7/18/08 9:30:18 am reply quote

re: #110 opnion,

As bad as Obambi will be for the US, he will be much worse for Israel. He'll sell Israel to the Mohammedan wolfpack for nothing, and consider himself to be a great leader for doing so.

119 EC Marm  7/18/08 9:31:17 am reply quote

Maybe it's time for a new, improved peace plan.

120 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:31:19 am reply quote
121 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 9:32:04 am reply quote

re: #115 Kenneth

Do you know if there is a particular (military) reason he didn't fold his arms in?

122 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:32:07 am reply quote

re: #89 buzzsawmonkey

Hey, Wrath, an OT for you:

From here through here, an exchange you may have missed.

I really loved No. 895.

123 Fritz_Katz  7/18/08 9:32:32 am reply quote

re: #80 laZardo

Such a comparison has Raul Julia rolling in his grave.
/whatever happened to the guy who played Uncle Fester though?

You mean Christopher Lloyd. I love that actor.

124 Ziggy  7/18/08 9:32:36 am reply quote

re: #119 EC Marm

Maybe it's time for a new, improved peace plan.

Nice! Lucy needs either a Kaffiya or a blue helmet.

125 realwest  7/18/08 9:32:42 am reply quote

re: #92 MJ Hey MJ, excellent post and link, but I think the author misses a significant point; regardless of his standing in the polls, President Bush ISN'T running for re-election and under the War Powers Act, he can send American Armed Forces anywhere to do anything he wants for up to 90 days without Congressional Approval.
And I'd submitt to you that it would probably take less than two weeks for the US - using it's Air Force and Navy ONLY, to totally destroy Iran's Command and Control systems, Anti-Air-craft, anti-missile defense systems, Air Force, Navy and at least a couple of divisions of the "vaunted" Iranian Revolutionary Guards (Iran's BEST troops) and if not destroy Iran's nuke facilities, make them inaccessable from without and inescapable from within. And I think Bush WILL DO IT sometime after the election and January 20, 2009, regardless of who wins the presidency this November, even McCain.

126 grumpy old codger  7/18/08 9:32:55 am reply quote

re: #66 MandyManners
Maybe "The Boys From Beirut", starring Gregory Peck, Lawrence Olivier.

127 HoosierHoops  7/18/08 9:33:02 am reply quote

re: #71 MandyManners

I hadn't thought about that.


me neither..spot on..

128 akak  7/18/08 9:33:26 am reply quote

Who's the Iranian dude up thar on that hill?

129 Maximu§  7/18/08 9:33:32 am reply quote

Well, well well....the little Hezbollah punks are feeling their oats eh?

Its high time we evacuate the Christian minority living in Lebanon and unleash our Navy and Air Force.

130 Opinionated  7/18/08 9:33:55 am reply quote

re: #120 MandyManners

You look like a hippo!

With the current Israeli Government and ethos, that is painful to watch.

131 Thanos  7/18/08 9:34:15 am reply quote

To things real quick before my next call:

Two years ago today Israel responded to Hezbullah and entered southern Lebanon.

OT, but might be important - White House Police stopped a man carrying a gas can with "wires coming out of his clothes" near the white house & Russell office building in DC, Fox news covering but nothing on the wires yet. They've dealt with this man before according to Fox, so might be a moonbat.

132 Dianna  7/18/08 9:34:34 am reply quote

re: #20 realwest

No! Not him again!

133 buzzsawmonkey  7/18/08 9:34:40 am reply quote

re: #120 MandyManners

You look like a hippo!

I love that clip.

134 Thanos  7/18/08 9:34:40 am reply quote

/pimf "two"

135 EC Marm  7/18/08 9:35:10 am reply quote

re: #124 Ziggy

Nice! Lucy needs either a Kaffiya or a blue helmet.


Thanks, I hadn't thought of that. :~)

136 Dianna  7/18/08 9:35:10 am reply quote

re: #40 MandyManners

Israel? It's not safe, but at least they won't use you for human shields.

137 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:35:11 am reply quote

re: #108 WrathofG-d

The Roman Salute (destroyed Israel)

The Nazi Salute

The Hiz'b'allah salute

The PLO salute

Doesn't the word "fascist" come from that bundle of sticks (?) that represented Rome's power--the fasces?

138 wvobiwan  7/18/08 9:35:54 am reply quote

Is anyone surprised that the UN is useless to prevent Islamic terror and murder? Those petro dollars buy a lot of 'what murder/child abuse/genocide/misogyny/etc.? from the UN and their hopelessly corrupted agencies.

I hope Israel (with US support) kills every murderous Islamic thug in the entire middle east this time.

139 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:36:04 am reply quote

re: #130 Opinionated

With the current Israeli Government and ethos, that is painful to watch.

How about some humor?

140 Pyrocles  7/18/08 9:36:06 am reply quote

Wow, what's up with the New York Times suggesting that war with Iran might be necessary?

re: #92 MJ

141 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 9:36:07 am reply quote

re: #122 MandyManners

I'll opine on this topic with the simplest explaination I can come up with!

Traditional Organized Orthodox Judaism has caused a group of peopl, whose number of members is less than some African tribes, to persevere through continuous persecution, and dominate history.

If that isn't enough of an argument FOR traditional organized Judaism I do not know what would be.

Am Yisroel Chai!

142 Ziggy  7/18/08 9:36:09 am reply quote

re: #120 MandyManners

You look like a hippo!


Catchy beat you can dance to with great video to boot. I give it a "10"

143 jenv  7/18/08 9:36:32 am reply quote

By "non-Shiite" do they mean "Christian"? Muslims using Christians as human shields is a perfect strategy for them.

144 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:36:40 am reply quote

re: #126 grumpy old codger

Maybe "The Boys From Beirut", starring Gregory Peck, Lawrence Olivier.

Weren't their eyes blue?

145 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 9:36:42 am reply quote

re: #124 Ziggy

No that peace plan is not only being sold by the UN or the Arab League, but also the EU, Israel herself, and the US.

146 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  7/18/08 9:36:53 am reply quote

re: #137 MandyManners

Doesn't the word "fascist" come from that bundle of sticks (?) that represented Rome's power--the fasces?

Yes, it was a hold over from the Etruscan Kings. An axe which was in the center of a bundle of rods.

147 Thanos  7/18/08 9:37:12 am reply quote

re: #137 MandyManners

Doesn't the word "fascist" come from that bundle of sticks (?) that represented Rome's power--the fasces?

Correct, that's why Filip DeWinter didn't mind calling it "Just the Roman Salute" when he gave it during his swear in to the Belgium parliament a few years ago. He knew the meaning was the same.

148 Iron Fist  7/18/08 9:37:19 am reply quote

re: #137 MandyManners,

Yes. Mussolini wanted to resurrect the glory of Rome, whith himself as Emperor. Nazism is much darker, more evil, than plain Italian Fascism.

149 Creeping Eruption  7/18/08 9:37:23 am reply quote

re: #120 MandyManners

You look like a hippo!

LOVE IT! "Yalla Ya Nasrallah . . .we'll screw you inshallah."

150 Dianna  7/18/08 9:37:32 am reply quote

re: #131 Thanos

Wasn't there a nut they had trouble with last year, much the same circumstances?

My google-foo is weak.

151 laZardo  7/18/08 9:37:38 am reply quote

re: #123 Fritz_Katz

Yeah. Whatever happened to him? Haven't really seen him since Baby Geniuses.

/not a remarkable flick, I might add.

//Fester-eyes would suit Kantar, seeing as how his kind like to blow stuff up.

152 Ziggy  7/18/08 9:37:43 am reply quote

re: #135 EC Marm

Thanks, I hadn't thought of that. :~)

I can't wait to see it.

153 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:37:53 am reply quote

re: #141 WrathofG-d

I'll opine on this topic with the simplest explaination I can come up with!

Traditional Organized Orthodox Judaism has caused a group of peopl, whose number of members is less than some African tribes, to persevere through continuous persecution, and dominate history.

If that isn't enough of an argument FOR traditional organized Judaism I do not know what would be.

Am Yisroel Chai!

That's a bit beyond my reckoning so I'll defer to your knowledge.

154 MJ  7/18/08 9:37:54 am reply quote

re: #125 realwest

Hey MJ, excellent post and link, but I think the author misses a significant point; regardless of his standing in the polls, President Bush ISN'T running for re-election and under the War Powers Act, he can send American Armed Forces anywhere to do anything he wants for up to 90 days without Congressional Approval.
And I'd submitt to you that it would probably take less than two weeks for the US - using it's Air Force and Navy ONLY, to totally destroy Iran's Command and Control systems, Anti-Air-craft, anti-missile defense systems, Air Force, Navy and at least a couple of divisions of the "vaunted" Iranian Revolutionary Guards (Iran's BEST troops) and if not destroy Iran's nuke facilities, make them inaccessable from without and inescapable from within. And I think Bush WILL DO IT sometime after the election and January 20, 2009, regardless of who wins the presidency this November, even McCain.


Well, I hope so. I don't really believe Israel by itself can destroy the Iranian nuclear facilities. Besides, the US will be drawn in anyway so maintaining a distinction here serves no purpose other than to protect Iran.
What I find quite interesting is that if Obama is elected, the result is that war is a certainty since Israel will not trust a US lead by an Obama presidency.
The movements in Lebanon are a prelude to an attack on Iran by either Israel or the US or both.

155 opnion  7/18/08 9:38:24 am reply quote

re: #118 Iron Fist

,

As bad as Obambi will be for the US, he will be much worse for Israel. He'll sell Israel to the Mohammedan wolfpack for nothing, and consider himself to be a great leader for doing so.

Take it to the the bank. I feel very strongly that Obama cheers for the other team. Reference his comments in "Dreams of My Father."

156 Thanos  7/18/08 9:38:46 am reply quote

re: #150 Dianna

Wasn't there a nut they had trouble with last year, much the same circumstances?

My google-foo is weak.

I don't remember, and I have to run so you guys are going to have to watch the developments.

157 jcm  7/18/08 9:39:00 am reply quote

re: #125 realwest

Hey MJ, excellent post and link, but I think the author misses a significant point; regardless of his standing in the polls, President Bush ISN'T running for re-election and under the War Powers Act, he can send American Armed Forces anywhere to do anything he wants for up to 90 days without Congressional Approval.
And I'd submitt to you that it would probably take less than two weeks for the US - using it's Air Force and Navy ONLY, to totally destroy Iran's Command and Control systems, Anti-Air-craft, anti-missile defense systems, Air Force, Navy and at least a couple of divisions of the "vaunted" Iranian Revolutionary Guards (Iran's BEST troops) and if not destroy Iran's nuke facilities, make them inaccessable from without and inescapable from within. And I think Bush WILL DO IT sometime after the election and January 20, 2009, regardless of who wins the presidency this November, even McCain.

You keyboard to God's monitor.

It has to be done. BHO won't. When can absorb the reaction better than Israel can if they feel compelled to act.

158 Dizzy26  7/18/08 9:39:19 am reply quote

realwest---If only you're right...oh..if only

Praying for Ronald to Return

159 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:39:27 am reply quote

re: #136 Dianna

Israel? It's not safe, but at least they won't use you for human shields.

The Israelis would be nuts to let them in.

160 Ziggy  7/18/08 9:39:42 am reply quote

re: #145 WrathofG-d

Maybe Lucy just needs a basket next to her with a selection of hats

162 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:40:44 am reply quote

re: #159 MandyManners

The Israelis would be nuts to let them in.

Who could trust that the refugees weren't harboring terrorists? Also, what would happen if the refugees were hit by Lebanese bombs? I'll tell you what. Israel would be blamed.

163 Kenneth  7/18/08 9:41:00 am reply quote

A great op-ed...The Audacity of Vanity
By Charles Krauthammer

Americans are beginning to notice Obama's elevated opinion of himself.

There's nothing new about narcissism in politics. Every senator looks in the mirror and sees a president. Nonetheless, has there ever been a presidential nominee with a wider gap between his estimation of himself and the sum total of his lifetime achievements?

Obama is a three-year senator without a single important legislative achievement to his name, a former Illinois state senator who voted "present" nearly 130 times. As president of the Harvard Law Review, as law professor and as legislator, has he ever produced a single notable piece of scholarship? Written a single memorable article? His most memorable work is a biography of his favorite subject: himself.

The idea is catching on... RTWT!

164 David IV of Georgia  7/18/08 9:41:37 am reply quote

re: #53 lawhawk

With Olmert in charge, Israel's military will not unleash the full fury it is capable of, precisely because Olmert will concern himself with the appearance of a disproportionate response.

I have repeatedly argued that there is no such thing as a disproportionate response in war. The only response to an attack is to crush your enemy and defeat them. Anything short of that is a failure to respond with the appropriate level of force in the right places.

I think the only real distinction in warfare should be conventional or unconventional—in other words, whether to use nukes and other WMD or not. I can't think of a situation where we would or should use WMD first.

War is a last option. Once a situation degrades down to open warfare there should be one goal: win it quickly. Ethically of course. One should not intentionally target non-combatants or destroy just to destroy. Winning the war should be the first priority, not avoiding bad press and strongly worded UN letters.

This modern post-WW II business of fighting a little then begging them to negotiate some malformed peace agreement, fighting a little more then begging..., fight some more... is generally stupid. If we actually fight, they should be begging us to talk, begging us to allow them to surrender. The only disproportionate response is to fail to use all the necessary power at your command. This is not some football game. There is no requirement that there be "a level playing field" or fair. Fairness and "level playing fields" quit being an option when diplomacy failed.

165 jamgarr  7/18/08 9:41:38 am reply quote

re: #146 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Yes, it was a hold over from the Etruscan Kings. An axe which was in the center of a bundle of rods.

Speaking of Etruscans - did you see that the She Wolf in the Capitoline Museum may not be Etruscan and may be 1000 years younger?

166 Sunlight  7/18/08 9:41:39 am reply quote

re: #131 Thanos

To things real quick before my next call:

Two years ago today Israel responded to Hezbullah and entered southern Lebanon.

OT, but might be important - White House Police stopped a man carrying a gas can with "wires coming out of his clothes" near the white house & Russell office building in DC, Fox news covering but nothing on the wires yet. They've dealt with this man before according to Fox, so might be a moonbat.

Two thoughts about Israel's response:
1. The State Dept interfered in a foul way in Israel's decisions
2. I have wondered whether that interference included getting Israel to chuck their prepared plan of using ground troop in favor of a Wesley Clark style 15k bombing campaign. We were there and while the army went in, came out, etc. the fighters were taking off and landing 24/7 at a base next to the place we were staying. Actually, it sounded like they were taking off an landing in our room.

167 Opinionated  7/18/08 9:41:41 am reply quote

re: #139 MandyManners

How about some humor?

I'll watch is in a better mood when Olmert goes to his reward- a jail cell at least if not being hung by his heels.

168 Dianna  7/18/08 9:42:00 am reply quote

re: #137 MandyManners

I found this:

History of the Fasces

Fasces (the plural, almost a plurale tantum, of the Latin word fascis, meaning bundle) symbolize summary power and jurisdiction.

The traditional Roman fasces consisted of a bundle of birch rods tied together with a red ribbon as a cylinder around an axe.

The fasces have been used as a symbol of power by numerous governments and other authorities since the end of the Roman Empire. Perhaps their most visible use was by 20th century Italian fascism, which derives its name from the fasces. However, unlike for example the swastika, the fasces have avoided the stigma associated with being a fascist symbol, and continue to be used to this day much the same as before.

The symbolism of the fasces at one level suggested strength through unity. The bundle of rods bound together symbolizes strength which is lacking in the single rod. The rods symbolized the state's power to punish delinquents. The axe represented the ultimate power of high justice to execute, and has a long history in the eastern Mediterranean.

It's a google link, 3rd down on a page of results if you use "roman history + fasces". I don't really have time to give you my take. I'm straightening out the files from a legal case we were involved in, and it's very much a mess.

169 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:42:28 am reply quote

re: #148 Iron Fist

,

Yes. Mussolini wanted to resurrect the glory of Rome, whith himself as Emperor. Nazism is much darker, more evil, than plain Italian Fascism.

Vanilla fascism?

170 turn  7/18/08 9:42:47 am reply quote

Little late to the party, haven't read this thread yet. I was busy catching up on the George Slivers rant on last night's open thread(geeze! WTF?) Hey TypicalWhitey, if you are out there your nephew did an incredibly brave thing in Fallujah. My condolences.

At any rate, hey I thought the UN was in southern Lebanon to stop this re-armament from happening. Oh wait, they must be too busy saluting murderers or something.

171 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  7/18/08 9:42:52 am reply quote

So, given that Olmert is still in charge, I'm guessing the waging of total war against Hezzie isn't in the cards?

172 Dianna  7/18/08 9:43:52 am reply quote

re: #159 MandyManners

I know. But maybe their kids, under the age of 12?

173 Seaberry  7/18/08 9:44:02 am reply quote

Déjà vu...

Lebanese complained they were receiving recorded phone messages from Israel promising "harsh retaliation" for any future Hizbullah attack.

Déjà vu...

Also Thursday, defense officials warned that with the prisoner swap completed, Hizbullah would no longer need to restrain itself and might decide to avenge the assassination of the group's operations chief, Imad Mughniyeh, who was killed by a car bomb in Damascus last February.

Déjà vu...

174 realwest  7/18/08 9:44:05 am reply quote

re: #154 MJ I agree completely, but will point out to you that Israel could certainly deny access to those underground Iranian nuke facilities to anyone for a long, long time (without using nuclear weapons) and could keep on doing it, all on it's own without US help.
But, as I said somewhere upthread I'm getting goddamned tired of the US using Israel to do all the dirty work that needs to be done over there.
WE, the USA, have to step up to the plate and do the right thing.

175 MandyManners  7/18/08 9:44:14 am reply quote

bbiab

176 grumpy old codger  7/18/08 9:44:17 am reply quote

re: #144 MandyManners

Doubtful, Hitler was no prototypical Aryan.

177 grumpy old codger  7/18/08 9:45:56 am reply quote

re: #146 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

The axe was not carried inside the confines of the city itself.

178 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 9:46:35 am reply quote

.

179 bald headed geek  7/18/08 9:46:41 am reply quote

I agree with Charles--there WILL be another war, and this one will have to be won decisively by Israel. If it does not, it may be the beginning of the end for the Jewish state.

BHG

180 EC Marm  7/18/08 9:46:56 am reply quote

re: #152 Ziggy

I can't wait to see it.


Here you go.

181 maddogg  7/18/08 9:46:56 am reply quote

If you can't afford to do the job right the first time, can you afford to do it over?

182 Big Steve  7/18/08 9:47:30 am reply quote

re: #87 MandyManners

ROFLMAO!

re: #57 EC Marm

Well, I'm not a genetic epidemiologist who publishes about five 1st author manuscripts a year, but this can't be good.

You forgot....published in JAMA.

183 Opinionated  7/18/08 9:47:31 am reply quote

Everything happening in Lebanon today, and the forthcoming next and more terrible war, was obvious to any intelligent person when they witnessed, this:


[Link: www.7kanal.com...]

184 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  7/18/08 9:47:54 am reply quote

re: #164 David IV of Georgia

I think the only real distinction in warfare should be conventional or unconventional—in other words, whether to use nukes and other WMD or not. I can't think of a situation where we would or should use WMD first.

War is a last option. Once a situation degrades down to open warfare there should be one goal: win it quickly. Ethically of course. One should not intentionally target non-combatants or destroy just to destroy. Winning the war should be the first priority, not avoiding bad press and strongly worded UN letters.

This modern post-WW II business of fighting a little then begging them to negotiate some malformed peace agreement, fighting a little more then begging..., fight some more... is generally stupid. If we actually fight, they should be begging us to talk, begging us to allow them to surrender. The only disproportionate response is to fail to use all the necessary power at your command. This is not some football game. There is no requirement that there be "a level playing field" or fair. Fairness and "level playing fields" quit being an option when diplomacy failed.

Anyone who worries about "fair" in a military operation has no place being involved in it. The point is to minimize your losses while maximizing the enemy's losses. Its not a sporting event or a duel. The idea is to come upon the enemy while he isn't looking and exterminate him before he even realizes he is dead.

185 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 9:48:29 am reply quote

All of this (including Hamas & Iran) must be the peace dividend received by Israel for the "disengagement" from Aza and Northern Samaria.

~harumph!

186 laZardo  7/18/08 9:48:59 am reply quote

re: #169 MandyManners

There's also Franco Fascism...

187 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  7/18/08 9:50:07 am reply quote

re: #177 grumpy old codger

The axe was not carried inside the confines of the city itself.

I'm fairly sure it (the fasces) was. The Lictors who accompanied the Consuls and other politicians would carry it whereever they went.

188 Big Steve  7/18/08 9:50:43 am reply quote

re: #115 Kenneth

Great photo of a US Marine in Iraq.

Semper Fi

Nice cammo!

189 biff  7/18/08 9:51:33 am reply quote

Olmert should not and cannot be the PM for the next Lebanon war. If necessary the IDF should physically remove him and his fellow Kadima traitors, and replace the Kadima government with a military wartime government until the war is over, at which time immediate elections should be scheduled. If the IDF generals would bring a constitution into place prior to the election setting forth a representative parliamentary government, so much the better.

190 biff  7/18/08 9:52:44 am reply quote

This time Green Helmet Guy and the LLL MSM are fair targets.

191 bald headed geek  7/18/08 9:52:47 am reply quote

re: #178 WrathofG-d

Great video.

BHG

192 Kosh's Shadow  7/18/08 9:53:05 am reply quote

re: #78 realwest

Huh, if chem weapons go off in Israel, I hope Israel retaliates by flattening Lebanon AND Syria.

And Iran. But they should do Iran some major damage now, just for working on nukes.

193 Iron Fist  7/18/08 9:53:08 am reply quote

re: #169 MandyManners,

Kinda like that. On many subjects, Hitler wasn't very original. He stole a lot from italian Fascism when he was making Nazism. Or, more properly, from Rome. The eagle and the Roman salute were stolen from Rome, the swastika from India and Hinduism. Even the hatred of the Jews wasn't original. He just combined it all into a toxic mix that stained everything that it touched.

194 Land Shark  7/18/08 9:53:26 am reply quote

No surprise here. And with UN "peacekeepers" that salute dead terrorists there's even less than zero surprise. Hizzbullah has been feeling pretty cocky since the last war and the latest idiocy by that dumb ass the Israelis have as a Prime Minister exchanging live terrorists for dead soldiers.

The next war promises to be a dozy. Hopefully the Israelis are well prepared and hopefully will be allowed to deliver a smack down. Unfortunately if Israel starts womping Hizzbullah the useful idiots in the MSM will start howling about "disproportionate response to attacks by people who want to wipe Israel off the map", making fake pictures with Photoshop showing non-existent Israeli atrocities and the idiots running most Western countries (including, sadly, the US) will start calling for a ceasefire and there will be a truce and the whole sad cycle will repeat. Maybe Iran will have it's nukes ready by the next war and then we can have some real fun, -NOT!

195 jcm  7/18/08 9:54:04 am reply quote

re: #174 realwest

I agree completely, but will point out to you that Israel could certainly deny access to those underground Iranian nuke facilities to anyone for a long, long time (without using nuclear weapons) and could keep on doing it, all on it's own without US help.
But, as I said somewhere upthread I'm getting goddamned tired of the US using Israel to do all the dirty work that needs to be done over there.
WE, the USA, have to step up to the plate and do the right thing.

Amen.

Iran is not only a threat to Isreal, I believe they are a threat to us. El Baridei said Iran could be 6 months from a bomb. While using they don't have launch or convention strike capability against us. Think about a scenario with one going off in Tel Aviv and in a major US harbor.

They think about BHO curled in a fetal position in the situation room.

I think logic and security consideration demand WE act before Iran is a nuclear state, and before Jan. 20 in case we have a president who will not act. Because in 4 years a nuclear Iran is a whole new dynamic we don't what to deal with.

196 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 9:54:27 am reply quote

Olmert.....was it worth it? You have destroyed H'tikvah from the inside, now you allow it from without. You have picked the wrong people to call your enemy, you don't understand the problem.

197 FishFearMe  7/18/08 9:55:02 am reply quote

UN "Peacekeepers" in a war zone? That's like Pee Wee Herman riding his bike in the Tour D' France.

198 Ziggy  7/18/08 9:55:08 am reply quote

re: #180 EC Marm

Here you go.

Awesome. Can I send it around to spme friends (with credit of course)?

199 EC Marm  7/18/08 9:56:41 am reply quote

re: #198 Ziggy
Sure. You don't even have to credit it.

200 realwest  7/18/08 9:57:04 am reply quote

re: #192 Kosh's Shadow
Yep, see my #125 above.

201 Iron Fist  7/18/08 9:57:41 am reply quote

re: #184 Kragar (proud to be kafir),

A fair is a place they give ribbons to prize hogs. I've forgotten who said it, but that is one of my favorite quotes to tell new white belts about what the martial arts teaches. You cheat to win. You take advantage of every weakness that your enemy shows you, exploit it to its fullest. Don't break a sweat while breaking your opponent totally.

Wars should be fought the same way.

203 bald headed geek  7/18/08 9:59:20 am reply quote

re: #192 Kosh's Shadow

We won't let 'em. The Bush 43 Administration has completely morphed into the Bush 41 Administration in terms of its foreign. I wonder, if Condoleeza Rice speaks, do James "F--- the Jews" Baker's lips move?

BHG

204 Iron Fist  7/18/08 9:59:48 am reply quote

re: #197 FishFearMe,

So you are saying Pee Wee Herman is on steroids? I'm crushed.

;-P

205 bald headed geek  7/18/08 10:01:52 am reply quote

re: #203 bald headed geek

Foreign policy, I meant.

Memo to self: LEARN to proofread!

BHG

206 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 10:02:57 am reply quote

re: #201 Iron Fist

This exactly how the Islamists fight....and why they are getting so many advantages.

207 charles_martel  7/18/08 10:03:01 am reply quote

There is a big war coming, and everybody knows it. If Israel attacks Iran, Iran will launch hundreds of missiles at Israel. Iran would then order Hezbullah to attack from Lebanon. Syria, which has signed many military, mutual defence pacts, would also attack Israel. And, what the heck, Egypt may also attach just for sh!ts and giggles, due to the rising power of the Muslim Brotherhood. So, plainly, Israel is facing a devastating war against several opponents. I'm sure we would be drawn in, which would escalate this war to a probably nuclear level.

The Big Dance is coming, and the players are all lining up.....

208 realwest  7/18/08 10:03:48 am reply quote

re: #195 jcm I agree completely. And, as another source for another nightmare, it's no secret that Iran HATES the Saudi Arabians; in fact Iran sees the Magic Kingdom as their major roadblock to total dominence in the ME (after Israel of course).
Suppose Iran uses a nuke on Saud's oil fields. I know that the Saud's aren't really our friends (and frankly I don't think Bush does, either) but without SA oil flowing, Russia and Iran would become the worlds Largest exporters of oil. And I have NO DOUBT that they would refuse to sell us any oil at any price.
Iran has got to be put down very, very hard. So hard that by the time we're through with 'em (not using nukes, but as I suggested in my #125) even Kuwaitt could take Iran, even up.

209 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 10:04:52 am reply quote

re: #207 charles_martel

...as it is written......

Since LGF has been lacking from religious endism, and its Friday, I will add that when I was studying the "end of days", it states that Israel will be run by the Erev Rav (whom are pretty much false Jews) that will ruin Israel, and act very un-Jewishly, and Jerusalem will be split, and the rest of the nations (including Russia) will work together to destroy Israel.....

210 yitzy  7/18/08 10:05:49 am reply quote

re: #197 FishFearMe

UN "Peacekeepers" in a war zone? That's like Pee Wee Herman riding his bike in the Tour D' France.

Uh...I understand the point you're trying to make, but, in reality, couldn't Pee Wee's bike fly?

See here

Ooops...I guess that was his scooter!...not his bike.

211 Silhouette  7/18/08 10:06:25 am reply quote

War is always on the horizon.

Past wars behind us are still within sight, we can see future wars in front of us, and we can turn to the sides and see wars that are not ours at the moment.

212 noshariaincanada  7/18/08 10:06:49 am reply quote

[I thought this topic was important, hence I put it in the Links section)

It would be a real shame if Olmert were still PM when (not if) war breaks out in the north. He is such a disgustingly inept "leader" that he would probably give Hezbollah another "victory". I say this with the full knowledge that it is the IDF's task to actually fight the war - but with an idiot as "commander-in-chief", Israel is truly hamstrung.

213 Ziggy  7/18/08 10:06:54 am reply quote

re: #207 charles_martel

There is a big war coming, and everybody knows it. If Israel attacks Iran, Iran will launch hundreds of missiles at Israel. Iran would then order Hezbullah to attack from Lebanon. Syria, which has signed many military, mutual defence pacts, would also attack Israel. And, what the heck, Egypt may also attach just for sh!ts and giggles, due to the rising power of the Muslim Brotherhood. So, plainly, Israel is facing a devastating war against several opponents. I'm sure we would be drawn in, which would escalate this war to a probably nuclear level.

The Big Dance is coming, and the players are all lining up.....

I guess it's a good time to stock up on dry goods and ammo. I hope you're wrong.

214 jcm  7/18/08 10:07:48 am reply quote

re: #208 realwest

'zactly.

I also think we need to target the mad mullahs and Dinnerjacket. Create a power vacuum. And support covertly a group to step in.

215 Dizzy26  7/18/08 10:07:59 am reply quote

#207 charles-martel

Isn't this what Nostradomus predicted? Or was it Ollie N?

just askin'

216 Ziggy  7/18/08 10:08:19 am reply quote

re: #209 WrathofG-d

...as it is written......

Since LGF has been lacking from religious endism, and its Friday, I will add that when I was studying the "end of days", it states that Israel will be run by the Erev Rav (whom are pretty much false Jews) that will ruin Israel, and act very un-Jewishly, and Jerusalem will be split, and the rest of the nations (including Russia) will work together to destroy Israel.....

I predict I start cocktails early this Friday

217 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 10:09:21 am reply quote

re: #216 Ziggy

see #202.

218 realwest  7/18/08 10:10:03 am reply quote

re: #207 charles_martel
Well I guess it's a damn good thing that the US has TWO Naval Aircraft Carrier Battle groups "On Station" and a third less then that 24 hours away, plus 160,000 plus troops in Iraq (which, coincidentally -?- borders both Syria and Iran) including the absolute best Armored Units anywhere in the World. Combat tested troops as well.
Iran hasn't fought a war in over 25 years now, they are in for a major surprise - Shock and Awe can't really be appreciated by watching it on TV in Afghanistan, ya know?

219 realwest  7/18/08 10:13:33 am reply quote

re: #214 jcm Ya know, if you knew the exact number of US Army Special Forces troops, and subtracted out all you could find in the world except in Iran, I'd bet money you'll come up a couple hundred short. No lie and from an excellent source.
We used to "paint" targets in Cambodia South Vietnam with eyes and radios; SF now uses infrared painters on the most important targets.

220 charles_martel  7/18/08 10:13:55 am reply quote

I don't know if it's Nostradamus or Revelations, but there is a Kingdom of the East and a Kingdom of the South......The east is probably China, which has recently signed a multi-trillion dollar energy deal with Iran. If we attacked Iran, China may actually join in to defend the energy resources it desperately needs from Iran. The Kingdom of the South? maybe Saudi Arabia, which I believe is trying to buy nukes instead of making them....or maybe Egypt....

221 realwest  7/18/08 10:14:53 am reply quote

re: #213 Ziggy I wish and still hope and pray that Charles Martel is wrong.
But I don't think he is. And if Obama is elected, then he is precisesly correct.

222 grumpy old codger  7/18/08 10:16:17 am reply quote

re: #187 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

I'm fairly sure it (the fasces) was. The Lictors who accompanied the Consuls and other politicians would carry it whereever they went.


The bound bundle of birch rods was carried by the lictors. The accompanied the Roman magistrates and were assigned by position, 12 for a Consul, etc.). The axe indicated the ability of the magistrate, usually the consul to punish offenders even unto death. However, the axe was removed when the consul was within the city limits 0f Rome. This is an indication of the limits imposed, even on a consul, to punish citizens by death. This is the sort of problem that got Marcus Tullius cicero into such trouble when the Catalinian conspirators were executed.

223 Charles  7/18/08 10:17:14 am reply quote

This is not the "end times."

I want to make it clear that I do not subscribe to "end times" nonsense, and I urge people to take that kind of talk somewhere else. I don't want to be associated with it.

224 Kosh's Shadow  7/18/08 10:17:28 am reply quote

re: #189 biff

Olmert should not and cannot be the PM for the next Lebanon war. If necessary the IDF should physically remove him and his fellow Kadima traitors, and replace the Kadima government with a military wartime government until the war is over, at which time immediate elections should be scheduled. If the IDF generals would bring a constitution into place prior to the election setting forth a representative parliamentary government, so much the better.

That would be a bad precedent.
Sometimes, I think the best thing Olmert could do for Israel is to happen to be at the site of a rocket attack.
They'd replace him with someone who would avenge the attack, and properly kick ass.

225 Dizzy26  7/18/08 10:18:53 am reply quote

Hey IronFist--Wasn't it about four years ago you mentioned something about 'Iran & a parking lot' or some such suggestion?
Perhaps now is okay too!

226 charles_martel  7/18/08 10:19:05 am reply quote

You're right, Charles, I don't subscribe to any kind of literalism in that stuff. I didn't mean to steer the thread in that direction. But there will be a lot of players in this coming war.....

227 rlevitin  7/18/08 10:20:15 am reply quote

re: #41 Kosh's Shadow

And it will be a nasty war


(from this article)

Of course, if the chemical weapons go off inside Lebanon, Israel will be blamed.
If they go off in Israel, and Israel retaliates by flattening Southern Lebanon, they'll be criticized.
I hope they get rid of Olmerde soon

That was the actual article? It sounds like an all to accurate political satire... "Defense Minister Ehud Barak blames the Syrians, while Prime Minister Ehud Olmert asks the United Nations to do something. "

It's almost cartoonish.

*spit*

228 Ziggy  7/18/08 10:20:45 am reply quote

re: #217 WrathofG-d

That was beautiful.

229 realwest  7/18/08 10:20:46 am reply quote

re: #220 charles_martel
With all due respect sir, China can't intervene in the ME; the best they could hope to do would be to distract us in South Korea or Taiwan.
They have a second rate air force, a modest, mostly
tidal fleet and while they have several million men at arms, they have no way to get them anywhere - not even to Taiwan.
And China knows damn good and well that Iran alone can't supply all of her energy needs; China NEEDS Saudia Arabia - see my #208.
China won't like it, but really can't do anything to stop it - at least not militarily. And Russia's armed forces are also second rate at best and since Russia is the worlds number one exporter of oil, I serioulsly doubt that they'd help China.

230 Ziggy  7/18/08 10:22:13 am reply quote

re: #221 realwest

I guess we'll find out.

231 realwest  7/18/08 10:23:29 am reply quote

re: #230 Ziggy All the more reason (as if we needed any) to vote for McCain.

232 Ziggy  7/18/08 10:23:36 am reply quote

re: #223 Charles

I don't think "end time" is coming, but for sure some seriously bad crap is brewing.

233 Spiny Norman  7/18/08 10:23:44 am reply quote

re: #22 6pat6

Hizbullah is bolstering its presence in south Lebanon villages with non-Shi’ite majorities by buying land and using it to build military positions and store missiles and launchers,

Buying land? So, is this a change from their usual tactic of simply taking over homes and businesses to stage their attacks from? Somehow, I doubt they are buying anything but weapons and ammo.

The Hizboz made them an offer they couldn't refuse.

234 jcm  7/18/08 10:24:47 am reply quote

re: #219 realwest

Ya know, if you knew the exact number of US Army Special Forces troops, and subtracted out all you could find in the world except in Iran, I'd bet money you'll come up a couple hundred short. No lie and from an excellent source.
We used to "paint" targets in Cambodia South Vietnam with eyes and radios; SF now uses infrared painters on the most important targets.

No doubt. If my Persian was up to speed I would volunteer in a heartbeat.

I was AF in '79. Still fluent in Persian and without an accent. I volunteered for where ever my language skill would be useful. No response. In hindsight it tells me the Command Structure was not getting any directions or even instructions on contingencies. Personally I think the military was told directly do nothing which may be provocative.

By the time Desert One was launched it was too little too late.

235 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 10:25:22 am reply quote

re: #223 Charles

Yeeesh! Sorry.

236 looking closely  7/18/08 10:26:56 am reply quote

re: #223 Charles

This is not the "end times."

I want to make it clear that I do not subscribe to "end times" nonsense, and I urge people to take that kind of talk somewhere else. I don't want to be associated with it.


Religious dogma aside, at "worst" this is the "end times" for the State of Israel.

Worst case scenario is a massive multi-front attack against Israel with first a conventional, then a subsequent limited nuclear counterattack.

While I think its unlikely that Israel would be totally destroyed even in this nightmare scenario, given the repeated failures of Israel's current political leadership, I don't think you can absolutely exclude it.

237 Charles  7/18/08 10:27:08 am reply quote

re: #232 Ziggy

I don't think "end time" is coming, but for sure some seriously bad crap is brewing.

I agree. It's bad enough without the apocalyptic foolishness.

238 Kosh's Shadow  7/18/08 10:27:57 am reply quote

re: #227 rlevitin

That was the actual article? It sounds like an all to accurate political satire... "Defense Minister Ehud Barak blames the Syrians, while Prime Minister Ehud Olmert asks the United Nations to do something. "

It's almost cartoonish.

*spit*

Olmert, the Elmer Fudd of politicians. Yes, that was the article; Olmerde asking the UN, who let Hizballah rearm, saluted the child killer, to actually do something other than be human shields for Hizballah.

239 Ziggy  7/18/08 10:28:21 am reply quote

re: #231 realwest

All the more reason (as if we needed any) to vote for McCain.


preaching to the choir here, but almost all of my friends (no exaggeration) plan on voting for Obama. If I hear about Bush's third term or improving our image in the world one more time I'm going to flip. Most people I know don't visit LGF or other fine sites. They maybe catch a little network news here and there and read the Sunday Times and THINK they know what's going on. None of them ever want to engage me in debate, they just throw platitudes around and call me a "right winger". It gets depressing. Not that I'm a huge McCain fan, but WTF is the option?

240 lifeofthemind  7/18/08 10:28:38 am reply quote

The whole point of the Geneva Conventions and the distinction between Lawful and Unlawful Combatants that the SCOTUS could not figure out is that it provides a powerful incentive to protect civilians, even during unconventional forms of warfare. Those stuffed shirt diplomats sixty to a hundred and ten years ago were actually rather savvy about the real world. Hezbollah is using civilian hostages to cover their combat operations and Hezbollah and only they and their enablers should be held accountable for that war crime and all the suffering that follows. When every person flees their presence and turns them in to a strong authority, Lebanese or Israeli, then the threat of Hezbollah will fade and the local population will be both innocent and safe. What the villagers cannot do is cheer for them, make videos and press releases honoring them, provide aid and comfort to them, and then claim they are innocent victims.

241 Opinionated  7/18/08 10:29:01 am reply quote

Hallelujah

242 kansas  7/18/08 10:29:11 am reply quote

Speaking of idiots:
Nancy Pelosi "You know, God bless him, bless his heart, president of the United States, a total failure, losing all credibility with the American people on the economy, on the war, on energy, you name the subject."

Pot, meet kettle. Can this idiot really get re-elected?

243 Ziggy  7/18/08 10:30:16 am reply quote

re: #237 Charles

I agree. It's bad enough without the apocalyptic foolishness.

I agree back at ya

244 kansas  7/18/08 10:30:23 am reply quote

re: #5 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I wonder what, if anything, the tipping point will be for Israel?

You mean the point at which they fight a limited war and then Muslim whining forces them to stop?

245 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 10:31:25 am reply quote

re: #242 kansas

Say what you will about Bush, but how anyone can take Pelosi seriously is beyond me. The amount of internal turmoil and serious issues taking place within her is evident on her face.

246 looking closely  7/18/08 10:34:39 am reply quote

re: #242 kansas

Speaking of idiots:
Nancy Pelosi "You know, God bless him, bless his heart, president of the United States, a total failure, losing all credibility with the American people on the economy, on the war, on energy, you name the subject."

Pot, meet kettle. Can this idiot really get re-elected?


Not only can she, but its a foregone conclusion that she will.

No opposition party (ie non Democrat) candidate could EVER win in her district, and she has a massive incumbency advantage, including in-party seniority, meaning that she's not even going to face a serious primary challenge.

Barring her physical incapacitation or a serious political scandal (the first of which, I most certainly don't wish on her, and the latter being extremely unlikely), she'll sit in that seat until she chooses not to have it anymore.

247 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 10:35:48 am reply quote

re: #237 Charles

I'll never bring "End Of Days" up again (or honestly do my best to try to remember not to), but just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason for the change in policy here on LGF? As we are both very aware, in the past religious people here used to discuss many different aspects (mainstream and otherwise) of their religious beliefs without complain or discouragement. As is your prerogative, it seems as if you have made a conscious decision to evolve LGF away from that type of "clientele". I don't want you to misunderstand, I am not saying that we should be able to, nor am I complaining, or making demands....I'm just wondering if there was a particular reason for the evolution of content here.

Mere curiosity.

248 Dizzy26  7/18/08 10:36:56 am reply quote

#245


I really don't think there has been a "serious" issue taking place within her...ever!

But it's the thought that counts and Wrath.you're right

249 Spiny Norman  7/18/08 10:38:45 am reply quote

re: #242 kansas

Speaking of idiots:
Nancy Pelosi "You know, God bless him, bless his heart, president of the United States, a total failure, losing all credibility with the American people on the economy, on the war, on energy, you name the subject."

Pot, meet kettle. Can this idiot really get re-elected?

She represents San Francisco, the Asylum by the Bay. She absolutely voices the opinions of her constituents.

Being returned as Speaker by the House Democrats, should the Obamessiah lose in November and her obstructionism is deemed to a factor, is quite another story.

250 wiffersnapper  7/18/08 10:39:36 am reply quote

Same war, same result: Israel dominates, then gets asked to give the Hez's some land because they were "too good."

251 Spiny Norman  7/18/08 10:39:42 am reply quote

*deemed to be a factor*

Sorry.

252 FishFearMe  7/18/08 10:41:15 am reply quote

re: #238 Kosh's Shadow

Olmert, the Elmer Fudd of politicians. Yes, that was the article; Olmerde asking the UN, who let Hizballah rearm, saluted the child killer, to actually do something other than be human shields for Hizballah.

Olmert Fudd. hahahahaha

253 Charles  7/18/08 10:42:56 am reply quote

re: #247 WrathofG-d

I saw your snarky references to "evolve" and "evolution," and you're skating on some pretty thin ice.

254 J. Lichty  7/18/08 10:44:03 am reply quote

re: #166 Sunlight

Two thoughts about Israel's response:
1. The State Dept interfered in a foul way in Israel's decisions
2. I have wondered whether that interference included getting Israel to chuck their prepared plan of using ground troop in favor of a Wesley Clark style 15k bombing campaign. We were there and while the army went in, came out, etc. the fighters were taking off and landing 24/7 at a base next to the place we were staying. Actually, it sounded like they were taking off an landing in our room.

Sunlight that is not accurate. Israel (Tzipi Livni - operating on her own) began 2 days into the war begging the US to midwife a ceasfire. John Bolton has confirmed this. Prior to that point, the US not only wanted Israel to destroy Hizbollah, but they also had the green light to turn Damascus into rubble. When Condi Rice started trying to mitigate the effort, Bush clearly spoke saying that Israel had a green light. Even the Sunni autocracies were supporting Israel. It was purely a lack of moral and political courage and a complete abscence of leadership on the part of the political echelon in Israel that led to the ceasefire.

With specific respect to the air war. There were generals pushing for ground operations, but Chief of Staff Dan Halutz, an IAF general by background devised his air only plan. The ironic thing is that the air war was very successful in destroying Hizbollah strongholds in Beiruit and destroying its long range missile capability. The problem as we say was the short range katyusha's that were in houses south of the Litani which required a clear and hold strategy that was not approved by the political echelon until the last 48 hours of the war when Olmert was pushing to save face before the implementation of UNSC Res 1701.

This was purely an Israeli failure and it permitted Condi Rice to gain ascendency inside the beltway at the expense of the last remaining pro-Israel elements in the administration. Bush lost faith in Israel and Olmert and let her take over, which she has done with a vengence.

That is sad truth, and as tempting as it is to pile on top of Bush for this one, it was not his fault.

255 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 10:46:03 am reply quote

re: #253 Charles

It seems that I was misunderstood again. No snark meant. I thought I was being cute by tying in the most recent and highly discussed change in the content of LGF, but obviously not.

No offense meant.

256 grumpy old codger  7/18/08 10:47:49 am reply quote

re: #249 Spiny Norman
Remember, for the Left and the democrats, it's all about how you feel. Reality cannot be allowed to interrupt a kumba

257 Charles  7/18/08 10:50:00 am reply quote

Here's the reason for asking people not to spin off into "end times" foolishness: it makes this site and everyone on it look like a bunch of religious fanatics.

I do not want that reputation, because I don't believe in this apocalyptic nonsense. If you're fine with it, take responsibility for your own views and post it somewhere else under your own real name.

258 grumpy old codger  7/18/08 10:50:16 am reply quote

sorry, Spint, a Kumbahya moment

259 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 10:52:37 am reply quote

re: #257 Charles

Thank you for the explanation.

260 Sunlight  7/18/08 11:00:08 am reply quote

re: #254 J. Lichty

Do you by chance have a link for John Bolton's recollections? On the street the first couple of days, it wasn't how you say. I think Israel started just trying to get the guys back. And then rockets started coming over and one of the rockets came over and actually hit a military target in the north. The Israelis then started ramping up thinking maybe the rocket had actually been aimed successfully. Then the randomness of the rockets became clear. I do imagine the U.S. military folks were ready for Israel to rumble, but I think a counter message was coming from State, unless the Israelis were obfuscating with their own people. And what would you do if you got opposite input from different parts of your main ally? Anyway, I can be trained so if there is stuff to read, please post it. Thanks!

Also, I do think the air part was good (the sound of freedom!) but like you say, the south-of-the-latani part needed people on the ground. Another tidbit was that the U.K. had given night vision to Iran for some drug shipping program without the Israelis knowing and naturally the Iranians had given the night vision to Hiz. So that caused a balk (a bunch of dead IDF guys) also.

261 kansas  7/18/08 11:00:47 am reply quote

re: #245 WrathofG-d

Say what you will about Bush, but how anyone can take Pelosi seriously is beyond me. The amount of internal turmoil and serious issues taking place within her is evident on her face.


The only thing bad about Bush is his new tone BS. Look what happened when he grew a pair and lifted the executive gan on drilling. Every day he needs to be pointing out that since the Dems took over, the gas prices have gone up, and they voted for the war based on the same information he had, so stop it with the lying charge. Internal turmoil and issues evident on her face? Is that what that is? Ouch.

262 MikeMelb  7/18/08 11:03:58 am reply quote

A very worrying sign. Hopefully this is not a repeat of '06 (which was itself a repeat of '82). Unfortunately, you can't wipe out guerilla armies with aerial bombings. All you do is kill civilians, and in this age of 24/7 media, there is only so much of that the world and the Israeli public can take.

263 WrathofG-d  7/18/08 11:07:15 am reply quote

re: #261 kansas

It is not my way to poke fun at ones appearance, but in this case it is actually the amount of "work" she has volunteered for, and thought she needed that I am referring to. With all due respect to those who get plastic surgery, etc.; if you get that much, you have some serious internal self-esteem problems and really aren't looking at things too globally. If one really understood the hurt and pain a child in Africa feels when he/she sleeps on rocks and dirt, and doesn't eat for weeks-on-end, they wouldn't feel so bad that they look 10 years old then they did 10 years ago. Its all about relativity!

Someone that self-involved, and vain shouldn't have that much power.

264 rlevitin  7/18/08 11:07:29 am reply quote

I want to make a Gore/2012 joke, but Charles doesn't seem to be in the mood for one atm. =(

265 Ringo the Gringo  7/18/08 11:08:00 am reply quote

When I was much younger I used to enjoy it when Hunter S. Thompson would go off on one of his apocalyptic rants, quoting from the Book of Revelations while snorting cocaine and swatting frantically at the wild bats swooping around his head.

Of course, Hunter Thompson was nuts....but it still made for some fine reading.

266 bald headed geek  7/18/08 11:08:51 am reply quote

re: #221 realwest

I agree with both of you, unfortunately.

BHG

267 KingKenrod  7/18/08 11:23:20 am reply quote

If you google "disproportionate force" news, web, or groups you will see the phrase is almost universally only applied to the Israel/Palestinian conflict. It's simply a pro-Palestinian fiction to prevent Israel from fully responding. It's a guarantee that the conflict will never be resolved in Israel's favor.

I've been curious about the origin of the phrase - I haven't been able to find it yet.

268 George guy  7/18/08 11:26:45 am reply quote

My primary problem with those who are overly inclined to assume current events to be developments of "end times" of one interpretation or another is that it leads to nihilistic theology - the belief that since it's all going to end soon, presumably to be replaced by something better, it is a justified excuse to give up on trying to oppose the forces of evil in the present.
In a way it's the same mentality as with many parts of the rest of the world expecting America to do everything.

I think that attitude is precisely what is amplifying the horrible things happening in the world: the mindset that it's not your problem because somebody else is supposed to take care of it. I'd go so far as to say that if I were an omnipotent god plotting the eventual correction of all things wrong with the world, I would certainly not choose to do it at a time when it would be feeding the entitlement mentality of such a large number of people.

/if it's all right with the Blogmaster to offer from my own angle why I think "end times" obsession is silly.

269 Silhouette  7/18/08 11:31:29 am reply quote

re: #267 KingKenrod

It was a very clever invention that, instead of having to come up with a different reason that each way that Israel of fighting back was evil (bulldozing houses, checkpoints, etc.), simply made an evil thing out of winning itself.

Any time you are winning, you are doing something better than your opponent. If the scales are tipping, then something is disproportional.

270 anotherindyfilmguy  7/18/08 11:35:48 am reply quote

re: #5 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I wonder what, if anything, the tipping point will be for Israel?

House to house fighting in tel-Aviv?

271 anotherindyfilmguy  7/18/08 11:46:10 am reply quote

re: #92 MJ

I think the author is wrong on one key point:
IMO, and I understand this may sound a tad bit harsh, a massive nuclear war in the middle east would actually have a calming influence on the region once it is over with... it's hard to push/support terrorism/instability/jihad etc when you've been vaporized... and oil can still be extracted from the coast of Iran, whether there are any Iranians left to claim the check for the exports...

272 yochanan  7/18/08 11:50:14 am reply quote

the more i see the newspapers and MSM the more pessimistic I get. I don't expect this to come out easly I JUST HOPE WE CAN WIN IT.

At least if John McCain becomes POTUS he knows what a military is for if G-D forbid obama gets the job then the liberals/leftist will have a POTUS who doesn't have a clue and a weak America could easly lead this into a nuke war. I really am worried about this.

273 yochanan  7/18/08 11:58:11 am reply quote

I think a war will happen (something no one really wants) the only question I have is on who's terms and when.

A misgudgement could easly lead this into some much more than the summer war. THAT IS WHY WE MUST HAVE A POTUS WHO UNDERSTANDS WHAT A MILITARY CAN DO. OBAMA AND HIS CHATTING CLASS LIBERAL SUPPORTERS DON'T HAVE A CLUE. AND NO CLUE BAT WILL EVER GET THEM TO UNDERSTAND AS EVEN SEPT 11TH DIDNOT

274 J. Lichty  7/18/08 11:59:18 am reply quote

Sunlight - the Bolton interview I think was by Pam Gellar at Atlas Shrugs. Don't have the link saved, but can probably go to her site and search. Given her treatment of Charles over the Vlams Belaang issue, would be bad form to post a link to her site here anyway.

Have read other interviews with Bolton about that and it may even be in his book which I have on backlog of a reading list.

275 Ziggy  7/18/08 12:07:28 pm reply quote

re: #273 yochanan

There is reason to fear the left. I have a couple of close friends from childhood, real lefties, who feel NOTHING is worth going to war over. Not the American way of life or the State of Israel...they're Jews too, which is a shanda. Jews In Name Only. Hey I like that, JINOs. Like VaJINOs.

276 hennigan's wake  7/18/08 12:17:29 pm reply quote

When news such as this is discussed, I think about having the allies stop at Sicily in 1943, you know? With the Russians stopping at their borders.

Hyperbole is no one's friend, and comparing this war to WWII is nuts, but at least on this one point there is an overlap:

If you leave aspects of the battle unfought, or victory incomplete, you will fight a war again. And it is always, always , worse the second time around.

277 So?  7/18/08 1:02:45 pm reply quote

Israel has been at war for 60 years. The next "round" needs to be the last. Israel should not have to endure mass murderers on their borders and be on guard against daily assaults. There are no human shields, just aiders and abettors. The next war should be taken into every arena, Lebanon, Gaza, West Bank, and if need be Syria, and yes Iran. Then again, if this is the way Israel wants to exist for another 60 years, the plain truth is, they won't. It's up to them, not me. I just key in opinions on my Mac.

278 Wilderstad  7/18/08 2:31:18 pm reply quote

re: #36 MandyManners

He looks like an utterly insane and evil Oliver Hardy without the bowler hat and friendly grin.

279 n2stox  7/18/08 2:34:27 pm reply quote

Simply breaking the other side's toys is not enough. Hesbollah and Hamas must be ended.

They get 72 virgins, for crying out loud. Look at killing these terrorists as a true act of mercy. They have a miserable existence here. Let us, or Israel, give them everlasting peace.

No more skirmishes. Ever.

No more half measures.

280 J'accuzzi  7/18/08 3:11:14 pm reply quote

When you discover that a snake is about to attack you it is always better to strike at the head first when killing it. If the head is known to be in the basement of the Iranian embassy in Damascus that makes the task much easier.

281 CLLRusso  7/18/08 3:56:46 pm reply quote

re: #257 Charles

Here's the reason for asking people not to spin off into "end times" foolishness: it makes this site and everyone on it look like a bunch of religious fanatics.

I do not want that reputation, because I don't believe in this apocalyptic nonsense. If you're fine with it, take responsibility for your own views and post it somewhere else under your own real name.

No doubt at great risk I will point out that one persons "foolishness" is a part of another's spiritual belief system, and while I am not one of those I am shocked that you show no respect, and in fact disdain for those that do believe that is just around the corner. Many of those people talk about flying to Israel to take up arms in her defense regardless of the prophecy because they so love that country and must contribute to it's continued existence simply because they consider Jews to be God's chosen people and it is His imperative to the rest of us to protect them.

Just sayn--

282 Tom Kratman  7/18/08 5:22:30 pm reply quote

re: #60 WrathofG-d

Not that the Country or Olmert needs one (as they have failed the others) but if they are attacked by chemical weapons and do not react with an overwhelming, gloves off, response, it will truly be a sign that the present Israel is lost.

It has always been understood, and explained that: Jews will not be gassed again!

Just a little heads up; chemicals are, for most purposes, really overrated. Effective against untrained troops? Check. Effective against people who refuse to shave and make it impossible to seal a protective mask? Check. Effective against cities...?

Not really. Part of this is the buildings, which provide a certain degree of protection until the agents are dispersered or degraded. (There are some nuanes in there: VX, say, lasts but must make skin contact. GB needn't make skin contact but must be breathed and doesn't last unless thickened...in which case, like VX, it sits in spots on more or less horizontal surfaces..."don't touch, kids.") Also there's the height of the buildings which tends to be above the level of persistent agents (they're heavier than air). Lighter than air agents, usually blood, float off in ten or twelve minutes, typically. An attacker can use a mix, of course, but that also means (assuming, say, a 50-50 mix) that either attack is only half as strong. Many agents are simply not very deadly (i.e. vessicants). Others tend to degrade in the shell. Masks work. Blowing them off faces requires much HE, further reducing the amount of chem that can be thrown.

And the sheer amount needed to saturate a city is immense. I recall reading of some German studies on what it would take to effectively gas Paris or London and to deliver it was well beyond the practical.

I'd be really surprised if Hezbollah were able to do a truly effective chem attack on one city, let alone several.

283 Shay4l  7/18/08 5:36:57 pm reply quote

re: #260 Sunlight

Do you by chance have a link for John Bolton's recollections? On the street the first couple of days, it wasn't how you say. I think Israel started just trying to get the guys back. And then rockets started coming over and one of the rockets came over and actually hit a military target in the north. The Israelis then started ramping up thinking maybe the rocket had actually been aimed successfully. Then the randomness of the rockets became clear. I do imagine the U.S. military folks were ready for Israel to rumble, but I think a counter message was coming from State, unless the Israelis were obfuscating with their own people. And what would you do if you got opposite input from different parts of your main ally? Anyway, I can be trained so if there is stuff to read, please post it. Thanks!

Also, I do think the air part was good (the sound of freedom!) but like you say, the south-of-the-latani part needed people on the ground. Another tidbit was that the U.K. had given night vision to Iran for some drug shipping program without the Israelis knowing and naturally the Iranians had given the night vision to Hiz. So that caused a balk (a bunch of dead IDF guys) also.


I'm thinking maybe the US was worried because our situation in Iraq at the time was so bad that the US was worried about a regional war spinning out of control before the US was ready.

The US may not be so wary with the situation the way it is now.

284 zulubaby  7/19/08 2:52:08 am reply quote

US papers call Kuntar welcome 'repulsive'

"This is the creature Nasrallah hailed as a resistance hero, the figure Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called a 'huge hero who sacrificed 30 years of his life for the Palestinian issue,' the celebrity that Lebanon's president and prime minister saluted as a liberated freedom fighter."

The New York Daily News launched the heading "A deal with the devils", and said the injustice of the agreement was "too painful to contemplate. There he was, a terrorist guilty of inhumanity in the extreme, walking free to the cheers of comrades in arms. And there they were, two black coffins bearing the remains of Israeli soldiers, held by Hizbullah for just this purpose.

"To be swapped, the blameless dead for the guilty living. To be traded as chits in conscienceless extortion. To be used in vile celebration of murder. Wednesday's exchange between Israel and Hizbullah could not have been more searing." The New York Post declared the deal "a shameful exchange", which was also the title of the editorial published on Friday. "Six bloodstained terrorists got a red-carpet hero's welcome," the article read.

"The shameful exchange ended the two-year nightmare for the parents of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev, who until the coffins were delivered didn't know for certain whether their sons were alive or dead. It also underscored Israel's deeply felt imperative never to abandon soldiers in the field."

285 Jed  7/20/08 4:34:05 am reply quote

The UN is worse than useless.


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