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Krauthammer on Intelligent Design: Phony Theory, False Conflict

Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 2:02:28 pm PDT

I was browsing through Charles Krauthammer’s columns today, and discovered this excellent piece on the Kitzmiller case, and the pseudo-scientific claptrap promoted by the Discovery Institute: Phony Theory, False Conflict.

Let’s be clear. Intelligent design may be interesting as theology, but as science it is a fraud. It is a self-enclosed, tautological “theory” whose only holding is that when there are gaps in some area of scientific knowledge — in this case, evolution — they are to be filled by God. It is a “theory” that admits that evolution and natural selection explain such things as the development of drug resistance in bacteria and other such evolutionary changes within species but also says that every once in a while God steps into this world of constant and accumulating change and says, “I think I’ll make me a lemur today.” A “theory” that violates the most basic requirement of anything pretending to be science — that it be empirically disprovable. How does one empirically disprove the proposition that God was behind the lemur, or evolution — or behind the motion of the tides or the “strong force” that holds the atom together?

In order to justify the farce that intelligent design is science, Kansas had to corrupt the very definition of science, dropping the phrase “ natural explanations for what we observe in the world around us,” thus unmistakably implying — by fiat of definition, no less — that the supernatural is an integral part of science. This is an insult both to religion and science.

The school board thinks it is indicting evolution by branding it an “unguided process” with no “discernible direction or goal.” This is as ridiculous as indicting Newtonian mechanics for positing an “unguided process” by which Earth is pulled around the sun every year without discernible purpose. What is chemistry if not an “unguided process” of molecular interactions without “purpose”? Or are we to teach children that God is behind every hydrogen atom in electrolysis?

He may be, of course. But that discussion is the province of religion, not science. The relentless attempt to confuse the two by teaching warmed-over creationism as science can only bring ridicule to religion, gratuitously discrediting a great human endeavor and our deepest source of wisdom precisely about those questions — arguably, the most important questions in life — that lie beyond the material.

How ridiculous to make evolution the enemy of God. What could be more elegant, more simple, more brilliant, more economical, more creative, indeed more divine than a planet with millions of life forms, distinct and yet interactive, all ultimately derived from accumulated variations in a single double-stranded molecule, pliable and fecund enough to give us mollusks and mice, Newton and Einstein? Even if it did give us the Kansas State Board of Education, too.

Applause!

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1117 comments

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1 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:04:16pm

It's nice to find at least one conservative columnist who hasn't drunk the creationist koolaid.

2 scottishbuzzsaw  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:05:56pm

Brilliantly said, Mr. Krauthammer!

3 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:05:58pm

Creationist are really jumping on that minus button for this one.

4 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:07:18pm

Say what you will about gravity, at least it brings us together. Evolution creates differences.

(that was a pun, by the way.)

5 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:08:54pm

Again, why is it hard to believe that God created the universe and that Darwin's theory explains what has happened since then. They are mutually exclusive. One is The Cause, the other the means.

6 iowavette  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:09:33pm

Krauthammer is one elegant individual.

7 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:09:58pm

The next dramatic exit in 5...4....3....

8 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:10:23pm
The relentless attempt to confuse the two by teaching warmed-over creationism as science can only bring ridicule to religion, gratuitously discrediting a great human endeavor and our deepest source of wisdom precisely about those questions — arguably, the most important questions in life — that lie beyond the material.


Worth repeating.

9 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:10:32pm

The big question, though, is why does Charles Krauthammer hate God?

cough

10 scottishbuzzsaw  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:10:47pm

"The relentless attempt to confuse the two by teaching warmed-over creationism as science can only bring ridicule to religion, gratuitously discrediting a great human endeavor and our deepest source of wisdom precisely about those questions — arguably, the most important questions in life — that lie beyond the material."

Why isn't this more obvious?

11 jaunte  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:10:59pm

Krauthammer sets a high standard for clarity and economy in writing. What a great column.

12 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:11:26pm

re: #1 Charles

It's nice to find at least one conservative columnist who hasn't drunk the creationist koolaid.

Then you probably won't like this quote by a long time LGF favorite:

The fact is that this is a planet overwhelmingly dominated and shaped by one species, and our kith and kin – whether gibbons or pumpkins – basically fit in in the spaces between. That’s pretty much the world the Psalmist outlined in the Old Testament thousands of years ago. By comparison, the evolutionists’ insistence that we’re just another “animal” seems perverse and irrational and refuted by a casual glance out the window. I am coming round to the view that hyper-rationalism is highly irrational.

~ Mark Steyn


(found at this link)

13 Edouard  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:12:00pm
"In order to justify the farce that intelligent design is science, Kansas had to corrupt the very definition of science, dropping the phrase 'natural explanations for what we observe in the world around us,' thus unmistakably implying — by fiat of definition, no less — that the supernatural is an integral part of science. This is an insult both to religion and science."

Right on the mark. Right on the mark.

14 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:12:55pm

re: #12 Ringo the Gringo

You're right, I don't like it, and it's disappointing but not surprising.

15 kansas  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:13:37pm

Hey I resemble those remarks. Anyway, the members of the Kansas Board that came up with those rulings got voted out and Kansas is back in the present. Creationists run stealth campaigns though, so it's hard to keep em off.

16 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:13:44pm
How ridiculous to make evolution the enemy of God. What could be more elegant, more simple, more brilliant, more economical, more creative, indeed more divine than a planet with millions of life forms, distinct and yet interactive, all ultimately derived from accumulated variations in a single double-stranded molecule, pliable and fecund enough to give us mollusks and mice, Newton and Einstein?


What a creation! And how elegant the means of its construction....

I don't see a conflict with science and Christianity/Judaism.

The weakness in all of this is our ability to understand how it all fits together. Sometimes I feel like we're a bunch of arrogant children arguing over ignorantly held ideas (ignorant only in that our understanding is not perfect).

17 zinowl  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:13:53pm

Is intelligent design the opposite of natural selection, indicating a higher life form or god – or is intelligent design our own cells directing evolution, responding to the environment and collapsing potential in DNA to better fit the environment?

The first replicating protein had the ability to measure and collapse quantum potential. This ability superceded the randomness of merely bumping and jostling that had been going on in the so-called primodial soup. Life started because it was a better quantum measuring tool.

18 jaunte  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:14:31pm

re: #12 Ringo the Gringo

Steyn is particularly wrong about this part: "The fact is that this is a planet overwhelmingly dominated and shaped by one species, and our kith and kin – whether gibbons or pumpkins – basically fit in in the spaces between."
...because he forgets the oceans.

19 CommonCents  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:14:41pm

I was under the impression that God was in every atomic element. Everytime something blew up in Chemistry my teacher yelled, "Oh my God!".

20 abolitionist  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:15:11pm
Or are we to teach children that God is behind every hydrogen atom in electrolysis?

Many islamists would teach that Allah is behind every hydrogen atom in electrolysis, instead of taking any interest in the relevent equations and theory. Whoever aways answers It happens that way because Allah wills it may get a pass in a madrassa, but nature is not so kind.

21 scottishbuzzsaw  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:15:29pm

re: #14 Charles


Not surprising? Because the belief in ID is more widespread than you thought?

22 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:15:34pm

re: #12 Ringo the Gringo

Then you probably won't like this quote by a long time LGF favorite:

The fact is that this is a planet overwhelmingly dominated and shaped by one species, and our kith and kin –

~ Mark Steyn

Mark, i guess, is ignoring the 2/3rds of the earth that is covered in water and the creatures that live in it.

Wouldn't it be equally as reasonable to assume this world was made for them and proof of it:

1) there is more of them
2) they get to move in three dimensions instead of just on the surface area.
3) it rains because god wants us land lubbers to understand what 100% of the earth should look like

23 Dianna  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:15:54pm

It's at +10 as I type this...

24 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:16:01pm

Perhaps the Discovery Institute should go barn storming with their Islamic, Turkish ,Creationist friends.
I am sure that the American people wiul just love that.
Idiots

25 cliffster  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:16:09pm

For what it's worth, you guys have educated me and turned me around on this topic. I'd always thought Intelligent Design is an interesting topic but didn't know the context in which it was being used in the world to be taught as science alongside, or even supplanting, evolution. So I've made it a point to learn more about it and yeah, it is a little creepy the way the idea ID is being used. Just in case you care whether someone's mind is ever changed. :^)

26 Dianna  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:16:12pm

re: #4 nikis-knight

Say what you will about gravity, at least it brings us together. Evolution creates differences.

(that was a pun, by the way.)

And a clever one, at that.

27 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:17:08pm

re: #19 CommonCents
Google "Is hell exothermic or endothermic". You'll get a laugh.

28 Maine's Michael  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:17:13pm

Krauthammer is drawing upon Jewish teachings in this regard.

God lives above the natural world, and the glory of God is seen in the complexity/beauty/elegance/ugliness/impoderability (totality) of his creations. Those creations include systems such as physics, evolution, chemistry etc.

There is no conflict. Period.

29 DeafDog  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:17:56pm

re: #25 cliffster

For what it's worth, you guys have educated me and turned me around on this topic. I'd always thought Intelligent Design is an interesting topic but didn't know the context in which it was being used in the world to be taught as science alongside, or even supplanting, evolution. So I've made it a point to learn more about it and yeah, it is a little creepy the way the idea ID is being used. Just in case you care whether someone's mind is ever changed. :^)

Same here. Well said.

30 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:18:21pm

re: #25 cliffster

For what it's worth, you guys have educated me and turned me around on this topic. I'd always thought Intelligent Design is an interesting topic but didn't know the context in which it was being used in the world to be taught as science alongside, or even supplanting, evolution. So I've made it a point to learn more about it and yeah, it is a little creepy the way the idea ID is being used. Just in case you care whether someone's mind is ever changed. :^)

I will echo that. I never gave it a lot of thought. I did fill some gaps in my education on LGF.

31 Dianna  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:18:52pm

re: #10 scottishbuzzsaw

Because people walk themselves into corners, and can't figure out how to turn around.

I've done it to myself, more than a few times. It's always an emotional thing, for me. Once I apply my reason, I can remember to back up, turn around, and see a way out. But it's hard.

32 gozza  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:19:05pm

I see no reason why there cant be both (ID and evolution). "Guided" evolution is just as valid and just as provable as Darwinian evolution.

We dont know. And we will never know.

Darwinists cant explain the 3 most important evolutionary events : the Cabrian Explosion, the formation of life, and human counsciousness.
And ID's cant provide a single rational theory of anything.

I see this science on par with climate science ! That was bit low, but you know what I mean - lots of wild speculation, little fact, lots of emotion.

33 arf  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:19:22pm

[Link: talklikeaphysicist.com...]

You can usually find a physics student with a T-shirt that read "And God said"..........followed by Maxwell's equations of electricity and magnetism........"and then there was light".

I always felt to be able to understand concepts like the equivalence of electricity and magnetism, of energy and matter, to figure it out like in general physics......to come to that "ah-ha" moment is sort of a "touch the face of God" moment.

Never could understand why the concept of God and evolution have to be mutually exclusive.

34 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:19:30pm

re: #23 Dianna

It's at +10 as I type this...

+18 now, with 2 ding downs (20 ding ups!).

35 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:19:40pm

re: #28 Maine's Michael

Correct. Versus the moslem approach, where one day, Stan may just get pissed and, all of a sudden, things won't work the same way. Why? Because Stan said so.

36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:20:07pm

Nice to read something I've felt all along. Who says evolution is against God? I feel its just another one of his miracles.

37 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:20:12pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

The next dramatic exit in 5...4....3....


I wonder if we'll hear from our resident genetic epidemiologist who publishes about five 1st author manuscripts a year and contributed $1,000 dollars to the Discovery Institute?

38 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:20:52pm

Honest question here no trolling intended. Is intelligent design different than Deism? To me they seem fairly similar. Not that I think either should be taught in science class.

39 CommonCents  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:21:20pm

re: #27 grumpy old codger

Google "Is hell exothermic or endothermic". You'll get a laugh.

Very nice work. I would have given him an A as well.

40 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:21:22pm

If that asshole Shotgun shows up, someone please tie me up and shove me in my filing cabinet.

41 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:21:39pm

re: #12 Ringo the Gringo

I think my disagreement there is that he should replace "the evolutionists" with "the environmentalists" or some such. There are poeple who say we are just another animal, but it isn't a contiguous group with evolutionary scientists. (And they are wrong)

I don't think Steyn means numbers when he says we dominate and shape the planet, either, since of course there are more insects, let alone bacteria, than us. But we are the ones shaping it to our will. The oceans as well (as much as one can shape an enormous quantity of liquid, anyway.)

42 Cato  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:21:46pm

Krauthammer is most certainly correct about intelligent design. It can't even pretend to be science to anybody who understands what science is.

I think I agree with him nearly as much as I agree with VDH.

43 StinkHammer  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:21:57pm

Yet one more indicator of why Krauthammer RULZ (as the kids say).

44 Dianna  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:22:11pm

re: #22 keithgabryelski

And never forget, "An inordinate fondness for beetles."

45 scottishbuzzsaw  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:22:30pm

re: #31 Dianna

Well said. And you're right, it is hard.

46 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:22:39pm

re: #40 MandyManners

If that asshole Shotgun shows up, someone please tie me up and shove me in my filing cabinet.

I'd rather you just kick his butt, Mandy.

47 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:23:15pm

re: #14 Charles

You're right, I don't like it, and it's disappointing but not surprising.

I'd like to hear more from Steyn on the subject (perhaps we will when he returns from his hiatus). My guess is that he accepts that evolution is real but that he, like many people (myself included), views it as the means by which God has created man.

When his website is back up, I'll send him an email and ask him.

48 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:23:28pm

re: #32 gozza

"Guided" evolution is just as valid and just as provable as Darwinian evolution.

No, it is not.

49 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:23:30pm

In. Into. Whatever.

50 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:23:40pm

re: #26 Dianna

And a clever one, at that.

Thanks. I had to tag it to avoid being seen as criticizing the thread at first reading.

51 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:23:52pm

re: #5 grumpy old codger

Again, why is it hard to believe that God created the universe and that Darwin's theory explains what has happened since then. They are mutually exclusive. One is The Cause, the other the means.

I saw you type that before, the Cause and the Means. I like it. I'll remember it.

Good to see ya btw. Got any chocolate?

52 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:24:19pm

re: #46 Honorary Yooper

I'd rather you just kick his butt, Mandy.

After his attack on the disabled earlier today, I don't have the patience to restrain myself.

53 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:24:21pm

re: #32 gozza

So, instead of investigating the events, we should just say "God did it!" and stop investigating?

Don't be stuck on stupid.

54 ladycatnip  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:24:22pm

Charles Krauthammer is an amazing individual. According to his bio on wikipedia, he calls ID "tarted-up creationism."

55 StinkHammer  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:24:27pm

re: #37 EC Marm

I wonder if we'll hear from our resident genetic epidemiologist who publishes about five 1st author manuscripts a year and contributed $1,000 dollars to the Discovery Institute?

I.e., the illiterate hack who was laying claim to some sort of professional scientific credentials?

56 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:24:33pm

re: #32 gozza

I see no reason why there cant be both (ID and evolution). "Guided" evolution is just as valid and just as provable as Darwinian evolution.

It is not. It is faith. Evolutionary Theory is science.


We dont know. And we will never know.

We do know because we can see evolution happen, in the lab.


Darwinists cant explain the 3 most important evolutionary events : the Cabrian Explosion, the formation of life, and human counsciousness.
And ID's cant provide a single rational theory of anything.

They don't have to for The Theory of Evolution to be fact.


I see this science on par with climate science ! That was bit low, but you know what I mean - lots of wild speculation, little fact, lots of emotion.

No. You are mistaken on this. Evolution is not only scientific fact, whose every element has been seen first hand, it is the only scientific theory that fits the evidence at hand.

57 looking closely  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:24:36pm

Don't forget that Krauthammer is a Harvard trained physician.

58 CommonCents  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:24:43pm

re: #27 grumpy old codger

Google "Is hell exothermic or endothermic". You'll get a laugh.

For those of you who want to skip the evil middle man


Is Hell exothermic or endothermic?

59 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:25:08pm

We have sprung from the same evolutionary tree as The Great Apes have we not? Hanging on another branch?

60 DeafDog  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:25:12pm

re: #57 looking closely


That's Hahvahd.

61 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:25:14pm

re: #4 nikis-knight

Say what you will about gravity, at least it brings us together. Evolution creates differences.

(that was a pun, by the way.)

and a really good one to boot

62 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:25:25pm

re: #40 MandyManners

...someone please tie me up ...

Dibs, I call dibs.

63 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:25:39pm

(please allow me a moment of anti-ID pulpit-thumping)

What could be more elegant, more simple, more brilliant, more economical, more creative, indeed more divine than a planet with millions of life forms...

IMHO, the ID'ers are trying to create a G*d who fits into a shoe-box.

(Charles, if this is over the line, feel free to delete. At least it's off my chest.)

64 bitsy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:26:14pm

"I think I'll make a lemur today!"

I was thinking of making chocolate cupcakes.

65 Pyroskank  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:26:17pm

re: #28 Maine's Michael

Krauthammer is drawing upon Jewish teachings in this regard.

God lives above the natural world, and the glory of God is seen in the complexity/beauty/elegance/ugliness/impo derability (totality) of his creations. Those creations include systems such as physics, evolution, chemistry etc.

There is no conflict. Period.

This has always been my position on the matter, and I don't understand why it isn't obvious to more people. Science and religion answer two different questions about the world around us. Science tells us HOW the world works, while religion tels us WHY the world works as it does. It is literally impossible for these two things to conflict with one another.

I happen to think that ID is probably more correct than not, but as has been said here many times, that's a matter of personal faith, not objective science. Frankly, I find the idea of teaching ID in a public classroom offensive.

66 KingKenrod  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:26:55pm

re: #32 gozza


I see this science on par with climate science ! That was bit low, but you know what I mean - lots of wild speculation, little fact, lots of emotion.

Speaking of that, America's non-President Al Gore says we need a radical energy change in the next 10 years or the planet is lost. Why the sudden desperation? Easy...if the planet stubbornly refuses to warm over the next decade, Al Gore will know the jig is up on the global warming scare. But if Algore can get some real changes made soon, he can take credit for saving the planet no matter what happens. If the planet warms, it'll be "boo-hoo, we were too late, GWB destroyed the planet!" If the planet cools it'll be "Yay, Al Gore saved the Earth! All hail Algore!"

67 Cognito  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:27:05pm

Good grief, guys.

Hold on a minute. Before we whip out anymore dueling writers, let's get something straight: One fellow might believe in both science and creation.

Just because Krauthammer believes Intelligent Design is bunk doesn't mean he believes God didn't create us. And just because Steyn believes evolutionists overstep their authority when characterizing humans as no different from the surrounding chimps and chipmunks.

Am I the only one who believes these two ideas do not exclude each other?

68 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:27:11pm

re: #64 bitsy

"I think I'll make a lemur today!"

I was thinking of making chocolate cupcakes.

I don't know why that tickles me so, but I can't stop laughing.

69 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:27:19pm

I can see G-d saying "if this mutation goes this way, and that one goes that way..... I'll get the creature I want". Maybe a bit like Bonsai, but where He directs "random" events.
But it isn't science and shouldn't be in science class.

But ID goes further; it says G-d has to go beyond the system He created to get the results He wants. This certainly isn't science.

And I'm also bothered by scientists who say that science proves there is no Creator, because it doesn't; all their arguments are metaphysical.

The scientific evidence does not answer the question.

Maybe someday we'll find embedded in the cosmic microwave background are the spoken words of Torah, and then I'll say science has indicated there is a Creator. Or we'll find something else. But right now, there is no way to prove or disprove scientifically whether there is a Creator.

So what should be taught in science class is that science cannot say whether there is a Creator or not, and the students should discuss how to reconcile scientific evidence with their religion, with their parents, religious authorities, etc.

70 Racer X  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:27:23pm

Krauthammer is a Lizard, yes?

71 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:27:26pm

re: #44 Dianna

And never forget, "An inordinate fondness for beetles.

It all comes back to The Cockroach God.

I'm sure Sal is please, dancing, half nekkid, by moonlight making screeching cockroach noises.

72 looking closely  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:27:43pm

re: #32 gozza

I see no reason why there cant be both (ID and evolution). "Guided" evolution is just as valid and just as provable as Darwinian evolution.


"Guided" evolution is a contradiction in terms.
There is plenty of empirical evidence for evolution.
Where is your evidence of a divine being?

73 Dianna  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:27:48pm

re: #38 Neo Con since 9-11

No.

Try Martin Gardner's The Whys of a Philosophical Deist.

74 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:28:05pm

re: #63 pre-Boomer Marine brat

(please allow me a moment of anti-ID pulpit-thumping)


IMHO, the ID'ers are trying to create a G*d who fits into a shoe-box.

(Charles, if this is over the line, feel free to delete. At least it's off my chest.)

Why delete? That is exactly what the YECs/IDers are doing. They're trying to place God in a box of ink and paper to conform to what they want God to conform to.

75 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:28:27pm

re: #62 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Dibs, I call dibs.

*sigh*

I walked right into that.

76 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:28:31pm

re: #67 Cognito

Just because Krauthammer believes Intelligent Design is bunk doesn't mean he believes God didn't create us.

What are you talking about? Did you even read the excerpt above?

77 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:28:45pm

re: #66 KingKenrod

Speaking of that, America's non-President Al Gore says we need a radical energy change in the next 10 years or the planet is lost. Why the sudden desperation? Easy...if the planet stubbornly refuses to warm over the next decade, Al Gore will know the jig is up on the global warming scare. But if Algore can get some real changes made soon, he can take credit for saving the planet no matter what happens. If the planet warms, it'll be "boo-hoo, we were too late, GWB destroyed the planet!" If the planet cools it'll be "Yay, Al Gore saved the Earth! All hail Algore!"


He gave us 10 years 2 years ago. Enjoy your remaining 8 years.
But if he's wrong, he'll give us 10 more.

78 Cognito  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:28:52pm

re: #67 Cognito

Should've read, "And just because Steyn believes evolutionists overstep their authority when characterizing humans as no different from the surrounding chimps and chipmunks doesn't mean he's advocating a non-science as science."

79 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:28:53pm

re: #56 keithgabryelski

I see no reason why there cant be both (ID and evolution). "Guided" evolution is just as valid and just as provable as Darwinian evolution.

It is not. It is faith. Evolutionary Theory is science.

the random part--that is technically unprovable, and interpretation just as valid as is an intent.

80 Old Tanker  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:29:03pm

re: #56 keithgabryelski


Could you please explain why evolution is a theory and not the "Law of Evolution"?

81 cliffster  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:29:12pm

re: #67 Cognito

see #33

82 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:29:14pm

re: #75 MandyManners

*sigh*

I walked right into that.

Yes.

Yes, you did.

83 wolfie  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:29:15pm

Krauthammer, as usual, gets to the heart of the matter, debunking the very notion that Intelligent Design is science.

He not only manages to do this without debunking God or religion, as Charles points out. He does it without sneering at those who believe in intelligent design as a matter of religious faith or philosophical opinion. He does it without laughing down at "creationists," "Fundies," or even Young Earth literalists.

In this he reminds me of Judge Jones in the Dover decision, who stayed on point in firm defense of the integrity of the natural sciences, while showing every respect for categories outside of science's domain.

May their tribe increase.

84 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:29:17pm

re: #74 Honorary Yooper

I guess I was just covering bases, and bowing to the owner of the room.

85 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:29:25pm

re: #67 Cognito

Good grief, guys.

Hold on a minute. Before we whip out anymore dueling writers, let's get something straight: One fellow might believe in both science and creation.

Just because Krauthammer believes Intelligent Design is bunk doesn't mean he believes God didn't create us. And just because Steyn believes evolutionists overstep their authority when characterizing humans as no different from the surrounding chimps and chipmunks.

Am I the only one who believes these two ideas do not exclude each other?

I didn't read the whole post, but that's not what Steyn said,

By comparison, the evolutionists’ insistence that we’re just another “animal” seems perverse and irrational and refuted by a casual glance out the window.

That's a pretty ignorant statement which shows his lack of understanding of evolutionary science.

86 Cognito  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:29:35pm

re: #76 Charles

What are you talking about? Did you even read the excerpt above?

I did indeed: "He may be, of course. But that discussion is the province of religion, not science."

87 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:29:44pm

re: #54 ladycatnip

Charles Krauthammer is an amazing individual. According to his bio on wikipedia, he calls ID "tarted-up creationism."

I think it's more "creationism in a burkha".

88 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:29:47pm

re: #67 Cognito

Good grief, guys.

Hold on a minute. Before we whip out anymore dueling writers, let's get something straight: One fellow might believe in both science and creation.

Just because Krauthammer believes Intelligent Design is bunk doesn't mean he believes God didn't create us. And just because Steyn believes evolutionists overstep their authority when characterizing humans as no different from the surrounding chimps and chipmunks.

Am I the only one who believes these two ideas do not exclude each other?

Nope....a number of us do (believe that)

89 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:29:49pm

re: #76 Charles

What are you talking about? Did you even read the excerpt above?

Apparently not. He read into it what he expected it say.

90 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:29:56pm

re: #32 gozza

I see no reason why there cant be both (ID and evolution). "Guided" evolution is just as valid and just as provable as Darwinian evolution.

We dont know. And we will never know.

Darwinists cant explain the 3 most important evolutionary events : the Cabrian Explosion, the formation of life, and human counsciousness.
And ID's cant provide a single rational theory of anything.

I see this science on par with climate science ! That was bit low, but you know what I mean - lots of wild speculation, little fact, lots of emotion.

1) How would test, find evidence etc... of a metaphysical guidance in evolution?

2) Science is comfortable with gaps in knowledge. In fact that's ultimately the driving force in science. "Don't know that" how do I find out what I don't know. Just because there is a "I don't Know" in science proves nothing except I don' know.

3) There is very little science contrary to the current standing of evolutionary science that has survived scientific processes. Anthropogenic Global warming has plenty of contradicting scientific evidence.

91 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:30:00pm

re: #67 Cognito

Good grief, guys.

Hold on a minute. Before we whip out anymore dueling writers, let's get something straight: One fellow might believe in both science and creation.

Just because Krauthammer believes Intelligent Design is bunk doesn't mean he believes God didn't create us. And just because Steyn believes evolutionists overstep their authority when characterizing humans as no different from the surrounding chimps and chipmunks.

Am I the only one who believes these two ideas do not exclude each other?

Don't you read others here? You are not the first to state this.

92 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:30:55pm

re: #80 Old Tanker

Could you please explain why evolution is a theory and not the "Law of Evolution"?

in science the word "law" is reserved for math.

You can consider the word "theory" in science to be as close to "law" as possible.

93 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:31:02pm

re: #64 bitsy

"I think I'll make a lemur today!"

I was thinking of making chocolate cupcakes.

Share?

94 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:31:05pm

Flame thread! Move along before people get trashed.

95 Dianna  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:31:06pm

re: #63 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I think that is quite well-put, at least about some of them.

96 bj1126  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:31:07pm

I am a Christian and "creationist" if you want to call it that though no where near as militant in my beliefs as many. I'm also an IT admin and pretty tech savvy guy. My job and nature dictates that I solve problems. I've also learned over my 10 year career not to be attached to things because as our collective knowledge changes so does our perspective on technology.

Maybe it's because I have trouble with the differences in the terms evolution and adaptation but there are things about evolution that have never been sufficiently explained to me and most of the proof for it to me looks more like adaptation. That however doesn't lead me to believe solely in 6 day creation or ID. It also doesn't cause me to question my belief in God. God as I believe in Him is capable of anything and could have created the world in 6 days and made it appear ancient or could have directed evolution or taken a hands off approach and let evolution run its course. I refuse to limit his abilities based on my potentially flawed understanding of His creation or Word.

I guess my major problem with your posts lately Charles is the tone not the content. Creationists aren't the John Birch Society and you're not Buckley. I don't see a reason for your efforts to insult and deride creationists. I think you could better make your point through a more sympathetic tone.

97 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:31:11pm

Gotta love Krauthammer, He always makes me smile when I listen to him speak or read his columns. He always "gets it". One smart man.

98 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:31:27pm

re: #79 nikis-knight

the random part--that is technically unprovable, and interpretation just as valid as is an intent.

What random part?

99 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:31:47pm

re: #95 Dianna

I think that is quite well-put, at least about some of them.

Thank you, ma'am.

100 theheat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:31:49pm
What could be more elegant, more simple, more brilliant, more economical, more creative, indeed more divine than a planet with millions of life forms, distinct and yet interactive, all ultimately derived from accumulated variations in a single double-stranded molecule, pliable and fecund enough to give us mollusks and mice, Newton and Einstein?

My guess is that explanation pretty much wipes out Genesis to those that interpret their bibles literally. And if Genesis can't be taken literally, that leaves a whole lot of 'splainin' to do for those who adhere to the bible as a non-negotiable book. And, believe it or not, I know many people who take their bibles literally. The majority of these people have chosen to home school their kids because they don't want any of those crazy scientific notions being taught to their children in public schools, or anything contrary to how they interpret their religious books.

I equate it to child abuse. I always hope the children can escape before they become mirror images of their parents, without the benefit of any other influences. Sadly, they rarely do, though I do know a couple who scrammed out of their parents' clutches and found out there's a great big world out there, and it's full of dinosaur bones and all kinds of forbidden history.

OT - I'm waiting for the animated version of the Fundie Creation Museum. I want to see the T-Rexes eat the children playing in the garden. (Of course, I'm a fan of science fiction movies.)

101 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:31:49pm

re: #73 Dianna

Thank You I'll Amazon that later tonight.

102 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:32:34pm

re: #75 MandyManners

*sigh*

I walked right into that.

well then *wack* him :)
/I'm sure he won't mind

103 Cognito  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:32:48pm

re: #89 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Apparently not. He read into it what he expected it say.

I'm sure Charles appreciates your supportive comment. But if you've got something to say to me, feel free to say it directly.

I did indeed read Krauthammer's column, and my point is spot on, I think: Just because he believes Intelligent Design is bunk doesn't exclude him from believing in God as Creator.

104 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:32:52pm

re: #72 looking closely

"Guided" evolution is a contradiction in terms.
There is plenty of empirical evidence for evolution.
Where is your evidence of a divine being?

So, science has proven that God had no effect after the Big Bang? That is the sort of evolutionist Steyn was refering to, who really does make such metaphysical pronouncements.
Evolution is a tool that can run on autopilot. That doesn't mean it has no other settings.
As for proof, I have none. Evidence? I will go home and hold her in arms tonight. No, I don't care to convince you with that, but I am content to be.

105 Dianna  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:32:58pm

re: #71 keithgabryelski

What?

106 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:33:02pm

re: #90 jcm

2) Science is comfortable with gaps in knowledge. In fact that's ultimately the driving force in science. "Don't know that" how do I find out what I don't know. Just because there is a "I don't Know" in science proves nothing except I don' know.

And everytime a scientist says they dont know yet (yet being an important part of that answer), the YEC jump on it as them admitting the YEC are correct.

107 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:33:26pm

re: #94 xtraBilly

Flame thread! Move along before people get trashed.

That'll be the FNDT.

108 Old Tanker  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:33:26pm

re: #92 keithgabryelski

Law of gravity, law of supply and demand, Law implies provable theory, theory implies best guess bases on a hopothesis, a SWAG.

109 DeafDog  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:33:58pm

re: #96 bj1126

I'm sympathetic, but do you think Creationalism should be taught in science class or in theology?

110 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:34:01pm

re: #105 Dianna

What?

another thread:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

search for cockroach.

111 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:34:12pm

re: #96 bj1126

I guess my major problem with your posts lately Charles is the tone not the content. Creationists aren't the John Birch Society and you're not Buckley. I don't see a reason for your efforts to insult and deride creationists. I think you could better make your point through a more sympathetic tone.

Please post a quote from one of my articles in which I insulted or derided anyone.

The John Birch Society, by the way, IS a big supporter of creationism. Just a fact.

And you're right, I'm not William F. Buckley.

112 Old Tanker  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:34:16pm

hypothesis (sp)

113 Catttt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:34:18pm

This part is beautiful - a keeper.

How ridiculous to make evolution the enemy of God. What could be more elegant, more simple, more brilliant, more economical, more creative, indeed more divine than a planet with millions of life forms, distinct and yet interactive, all ultimately derived from accumulated variations in a single double-stranded molecule, pliable and fecund enough to give us mollusks and mice, Newton and Einstein?

114 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:34:37pm

re: #94 xtraBilly

Flame thread! Move along before people get trashed.

Yep. I'm sitting this one out as well.

115 Catttt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:34:53pm

re: #93 MandyManners

Share?

I'd love a spot of lemur about now.

116 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:34:58pm

re: #96 bj1126

I am a Christian and "creationist" if you want to call it that though no where near as militant in my beliefs as many. I'm also an IT admin and pretty tech savvy guy. My job and nature dictates that I solve problems. I've also learned over my 10 year career not to be attached to things because as our collective knowledge changes so does our perspective on technology.

Maybe it's because I have trouble with the differences in the terms evolution and adaptation but there are things about evolution that have never been sufficiently explained to me and most of the proof for it to me looks more like adaptation. That however doesn't lead me to believe solely in 6 day creation or ID. It also doesn't cause me to question my belief in God. God as I believe in Him is capable of anything and could have created the world in 6 days and made it appear ancient or could have directed evolution or taken a hands off approach and let evolution run its course. I refuse to limit his abilities based on my potentially flawed understanding of His creation or Word.

I guess my major problem with your posts lately Charles is the tone not the content. Creationists aren't the John Birch Society and you're not Buckley. I don't see a reason for your efforts to insult and deride creationists. I think you could better make your point through a more sympathetic tone.

I dinged you up before I read the final paragraph.

117 wolfie  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:35:30pm

re: #67 Cognito

In the column above Krauthammer did not say intelligent design is bunk. He said it is not in the purview of the natural sciences.

Art, poetry, French literature, and poltics are not bunk just because they are not natural sciences.


Okay, maybe poltics.

118 wetfun  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:35:39pm

God created evolution, get over it

119 DeafDog  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:35:44pm

re: #108 Old Tanker


And don't forget Murphy's Law

120 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:35:53pm

re: #114 VegasRick

Yep. I'm sitting this one out as well.

May I sit with you guys? I'll let you buy me a drink...

121 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:36:16pm

re: #103 Cognito


I did indeed read Krauthammer's column, and my point is spot on, I think: Just because he believes Intelligent Design is bunk doesn't exclude him from believing in God as Creator.

Considering he argued that very point, I'll call it a safe point to make.

122 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:36:25pm

re: #115 Catttt

I'd love a spot of lemur about now.

I wonder what a drink called the "lemur" would have in it?

123 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:36:47pm

re: #96 bj1126

Did you say "John Birch Society?"

124 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:37:12pm

I'll say it again, because people insist on misrepresenting my viewpoints.

If you want to believe in creationism, even young earth creationism, it's your choice, you have free will.

But if you try to tell me that it's just as valid as the scientific theory of evolution -- as science -- then yes, I'm going to argue against this with every resource I can muster.

125 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:37:19pm

re: #107 MandyManners

FNDT? are you talking stock quotes, now? You really are a minx.

126 Cognito  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:37:21pm

re: #121 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Considering he argued that very point, I'll call it a safe point to make.

And yet when making the point, I'm asked whether I read the excerpt.

127 Dianna  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:37:21pm

re: #101 Neo Con since 9-11

You're welcome, and it's very fine.

128 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:37:33pm

re: #95 Dianna

BTW and for the record, I've never been quite comfortable with my idea of "Salvatore" for your squirrel because of the gender, but dang it, the moniker FITS so well. Why don't you try something which looks like ... hmm ... Sophia?

129 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:37:44pm

re: #108 Old Tanker

Law of gravity, law of supply and demand, Law implies provable theory, theory implies best guess bases on a hopothesis, a SWAG.

please, then, prove the law of supply and demand.

130 ladycatnip  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:38:06pm

For those here who believe that ID should be in the same cracked pot as global warming - here's some good news on that: American Physical Society has reversed their stand on GW.

De-bunk away!

131 Dianna  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:38:26pm

re: #110 keithgabryelski

Not today; I'm out.

132 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:38:38pm

re: #128 pre-Boomer Marine brat


{pre-Boomer Marine brat}!

I told you that you ought to be more particular about your snack choices...

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com...]

133 Old Tanker  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:38:41pm

re: #119 DeafDog

Can I get an Amen...(doohhhhh)

134 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:39:00pm

re: #98 keithgabryelski

What random part?

Evolution is taught as unguided and random. Chance dictates what natural selection can work with.

That fact is what is just as proven as that it was guided.

(Which is a false dichotomy, no one who believes in evolution and a divine overseer of it believes that every bit was guided, just that humans and perhaps some other species (or maybe just kingdoms/etc.))

135 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:39:02pm

re: #120 goddessoftheclassroom

May I sit with you guys? I'll let you buy me a drink...


Here's an interesting, fairly short test to take if you're sitting on the sidelines.
I still can't figure out which one I got wrong. Probably the Fed Reserve.

136 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:39:08pm

re: #100 theheat

Kabbalists have a quite different interpretation of Genesis; one that sounds much more like the current scientific one.
In fact, they have calculated the age of the universe to be around 15 billion years and life on Earth for 2.5 billion; not the exact values from science, but not out of range, either, and a lot closer than a week.

137 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:39:12pm

re: #120 goddessoftheclassroom

May I sit with you guys? I'll let you buy me a drink...

You're on!

138 Dianna  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:39:14pm

re: #128 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I've been Dianna everywhere I've ever posted; it's a little late to change.

I've got to go.

Take care!

139 CapeCoddah  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:39:19pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Yipes, what complete morons. whoever wrote that does not have brains enough to tie his own shoes.

140 Spiny Norman  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:39:25pm

re: #27 grumpy old codger

Google "Is hell exothermic or endothermic". You'll get a laugh.

That's a classic.

141 cliffster  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:39:27pm

re: #129 keithgabryelski

Filled up your car lately?

142 mossley  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:39:49pm

re: #32 gozza

You'd have saved yourself a lot of time and embarrassment if you had bothered to read any of the other threads on this subject. Everything you said has been repeatedly demonstrated to be a strawman, a deliberate misstatement of evolution, or a downright lie.

143 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:40:15pm

re: #125 xtraBilly

FNDT? are you talking stock quotes, now? You really are a minx.

Friday Night Drinking Thread.

144 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:40:32pm

re: #134 nikis-knight

Evolution is taught as unguided and random. Chance dictates what natural selection can work with.

No. Evolution is guided by "natural selection". Natural selection is not random.

145 bj1126  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:40:34pm

re: #109 DeafDog

Ideally I think there should be schools that don't and do teach it and parents should be able to choose which type of school their child goes to. It's too hard to dictate the tone and presentation of both and its not possible to please everyone. I will say that it doesn't benefit even staunch creationists to be ignorant of evolution.

146 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:40:42pm

re: #128 pre-Boomer Marine brat

BTW and for the record, I've never been quite comfortable with my idea of "Salvatore" for your squirrel because of the gender, but dang it, the moniker FITS so well. Why don't you try something which looks like ... hmm ... Sophia?

Philomena.

147 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:40:46pm

re: #126 Cognito

And yet when making the point, I'm asked whether I read the excerpt.

NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU.

148 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:41:00pm

re: #96 bj1126

God as I believe in Him is capable of anything and could have created the world in 6 days and

made it appear ancient

or could have directed evolution or taken a hands off approach and let evolution run its course. I refuse to limit his abilities based on my potentially flawed understanding of His creation or Word.

Psalm 89:14 (Amplified Bible)
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; mercy and loving-kindness and truth go before Your face.

God is righteous, he is not deceitful. If he did make things appear different than what they are he would be doing that.

I would suggest that any disconnect between God's Word and His Creation lies not between the Word and the Creation. But WITH US and our comprehension of both.

Speaking as a Christian i think the greater error lies with our understanding of scriptures than with sciences understanding of creation. The misamings in understanding of scripture are numerous.

149 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:41:21pm

re: #132 goddessoftheclassroom

{pre-Boomer Marine brat}!

I told you that you ought to be more particular about your snack choices...

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com.. .]

Ouch.

150 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:41:34pm

re: #18 jaunte

Steyn is particularly wrong about this part: "The fact is that this is a planet overwhelmingly dominated and shaped by one species, and our kith and kin – whether gibbons or pumpkins – basically fit in in the spaces between."
...because he forgets the oceans.

He forgot the germs. And the bugs.

We're about as dominant is Obama is the messiah. Steyn should get over himself, and his species.

151 Cognito  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:41:37pm

re: #147 MandyManners

NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU.

A thousand pardons, Mandy. Next time someone asks me a direct question, I'll simply answer, "It's not about me."

152 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:42:05pm

re: #135 EC Marm

Here's an interesting, fairly short test to take if you're sitting on the sidelines.
I still can't figure out which one I got wrong. Probably the Fed Reserve.

I missed the same one! Poor Ben Bernanke...

153 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:42:09pm

re: #100 theheat

My guess is that explanation pretty much wipes out Genesis to those that interpret their bibles literally. And if Genesis can't be taken literally, that leaves a whole lot of 'splainin' to do for those who adhere to the bible as a non-negotiable book. And, believe it or not, I know many people who take their bibles literally. The majority of these people have chosen to home school their kids because they don't want any of those crazy scientific notions being taught to their children in public schools, or anything contrary to how they interpret their religious books.

I equate it to child abuse. I always hope the children can escape before they become mirror images of their parents, without the benefit of any other influences. Sadly, they rarely do, though I do know a couple who scrammed out of their parents' clutches and found out there's a great big world out there, and it's full of dinosaur bones and all kinds of forbidden history.

OT - I'm waiting for the animated version of the Fundie Creation Museum. I want to see the T-Rexes eat the children playing in the garden. (Of course, I'm a fan of science fiction movies.)

What an arrogant snob!

On what basis do you assume that home schooling is based on parents desire to keep their children away from science class!

More often, it's a response to having multiculturalism, diversity, and the homosexual life style crammed down their pre-pubescent children's throats.

Apparently you think that you know better how to educate their children than they do.

Must be time for the brownshirts to come and take the kids away to protect them from their parents as is being done in Germany now (and almost, in California).

154 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:42:33pm

re: #142 mossley

You'd have saved yourself a lot of time and embarrassment if you had bothered to read any of the other threads on this subject. Everything you said has been repeatedly demonstrated to be a strawman, a deliberate misstatement of evolution, or a downright lie.

They're creationist talking points. They get dumped into almost every thread on this subject.

155 bj1126  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:42:36pm

re: #111 Charles

re: #124 Charles

I'll say it again, because people insist on misrepresenting my viewpoints.

If you want to believe in creationism, even young earth creationism, it's your choice, you have free will.

But if you try to tell me that it's just as valid as the scientific theory of evolution -- as science -- then yes, I'm going to argue against this with every resource I can muster.

I'm sorry then I guess I fall into that category. To me your posts have come across as very combative and insulting. I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

156 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:42:38pm

re: #141 cliffster

Filled up your car lately?

:-)

I'm not saying it isn't true -- I'm saying his defintion of "law" vs. "theory" is incorrect.

And citing "law of gravity" is incorrect, because it is "the theory of gravity".

157 nyc redneck  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:42:52pm

i love krauthammer.
he's brilliant and engaging.
and i think he's cute.

158 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:42:54pm
The school board thinks it is indicting evolution by branding it an “unguided process” with no “discernible direction or goal.” This is as ridiculous as indicting Newtonian mechanics for positing an “unguided process” by which Earth is pulled around the sun every year without discernible purpose. What is chemistry if not an “unguided process” of molecular interactions without “purpose”? Or are we to teach children that God is behind every hydrogen atom in electrolysis?

This is very good.

And to add to it, does the Kansas School Board say that they have a direct understanding of all of God's purposes and goals?

159 Racer X  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:43:05pm

re: #126 Cognito

And yet when making the point, I'm asked whether I read the excerpt.

Cog,

I appreciate your alternative views, and your posts that encourage people to disengage from groupthink.

However, sometimes you post stuff that just makes my head spin around trying to figure out your point.

Perhaps I am slow.

160 Spiny Norman  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:43:12pm

re: #90 jcm

1) How would test, find evidence etc... of a metaphysical guidance in evolution?

2) Science is comfortable with gaps in knowledge. In fact that's ultimately the driving force in science. "Don't know that" how do I find out what I don't know. Just because there is a "I don't Know" in science proves nothing except I don' know.

3) There is very little science contrary to the current standing of evolutionary science that has survived scientific processes. Anthropogenic Global warming has plenty of contradicting scientific evidence.

Indeed. Some of the original alarmists are finding that out.

161 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:43:15pm

re: #130 ladycatnip

Thank you!

Monckton: "In the past 70 years the Sun was more active than at almost any other time in the past 11,400 years ... Mars, Jupiter, Neptune’s largest moon, and Pluto warmed at the same time as Earth."

Damn, those CO2 emissions really reach FAR out there, don't they!

/s

162 Cognito  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:44:01pm

re: #159 Racer X

Cog,

I appreciate your alternative views, and your posts that encourage people to disengage from groupthink.

However, sometimes you post stuff that just makes my head spin around trying to figure out your point.

Perhaps I am slow.

Is there a particular passage I can clarify?

163 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:44:29pm

re: #161 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thank you!


Damn, those CO2 emissions really reach FAR out there, don't they!

/s

Its all those SUVs the US exported to the outer planets which are causing the problems.

164 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:44:44pm

re: #132 goddessoftheclassroom

{pre-Boomer Marine brat}!

I told you that you ought to be more particular about your snack choices...

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com.. .]

LOL -- that looks like more that (just) a kidney stone.

165 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:44:52pm

re: #144 keithgabryelski

No. Evolution is guided by "natural selection". Natural selection is not random.

yeah, duh. I suppose you didn't read the second sentence you quoted?
Mutations are random, natural selection perserves or removes them according to the dictates of the environments. As I said, though, it's taught that chance is what makes changes availible for natural selection to work with.

166 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:45:47pm

One false note in Krauthammer's synopsis of ID:

It is a “theory” that admits that evolution and natural selection explain such things as the development of drug resistance in bacteria and other such evolutionary changes within species but also says that every once in a while God steps into this world of constant and accumulating change and says, “I think I’ll make me a lemur today.”

What he should've written is:

It is a “theory” that admits that evolution and natural selection explain such things as the development of drug resistance in bacteria and other such evolutionary changes within species but also says that every once in a while God steps MUST step into this world of constant and accumulating change and says, “I think I’ll make me a lemur today ^, seeing as how non-supernatural evolution is incapable of producing a lemur by itself, without My miraculous assistance .”

That is the key difference between Intelligent Design™ and theistic evolution -- the former insists that evolution without God's guidance is an outright scientific impossibility, while the latter insists on God's existence without making specific claims about the extent to which He must've been involved in the evolutionary process. (Or rather, theistic evolutionists might insist that God's involvement WAS required to give humans an immortal soul, but not for the biological evolution of Homo sapiens.)

167 bj1126  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:45:47pm

re: #148 jcm

I don't see why creating the earth with apparent age is deceitful. In the end it doesn't really matter either.

168 Perry  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:46:55pm

re: #122 MandyManners

I wonder what a drink called the "lemur" would have in it?

Hair. Which pretty well kills it as a beverage.

169 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:47:01pm

re: #152 goddessoftheclassroom

Here's an interesting, fairly short test to take if you're sitting on the sidelines.
I still can't figure out which one I got wrong. Probably the Fed Reserve.

I missed the same one! Poor Ben Bernanke...

I so wanted to say that Condi was governor of Louisiana, but I restrained myself and got the others, too, though I had to think about at least one. I got the Bernanke, oy, did I get the Bernanke, how do I stop getting the Bernanke?

170 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:47:02pm

re: #135 EC Marm

Here's an interesting, fairly short test to take if you're sitting on the sidelines.
I still can't figure out which one I got wrong. Probably the Fed Reserve.

Can I join you, I only missed the majority house leader question. :)

/not bad for a furriner.

171 bosforus  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:47:08pm

Scrolling through comments looking for the red negative numbers is highly enjoyable in these threads.

172 Spiny Norman  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:47:17pm

re: #161 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #130 ladycatnip

Thank you!

Monckton: "In the past 70 years the Sun was more active than at almost any other time in the past 11,400 years ... Mars, Jupiter, Neptune’s largest moon, and Pluto warmed at the same time as Earth."

Damn, those CO2 emissions really reach FAR out there, don't they!

/s

Do the industrialized West's destructive tendencies know no bounds?

=^0

173 ladycatnip  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:47:40pm

#124 Charles

If you want to believe in creationism, even young earth creationism, it's your choice, you have free will.

But if you try to tell me that it's just as valid as the scientific theory of evolution -- as science -- then yes, I'm going to argue against this with every resource I can muster.

This is where it gets sticky for some people of faith. For them the belief in creationism is pure dogma, and they get testy and threatened when it's challenged. My belief in creation is entirely that - a belief. It's based upon faith, NOT science. Which is exactly why it needs to stay out of the classroom.

174 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:47:48pm

re: #166 Throbert McGee
But we are being told in this thread that theistic evolution is a contradiction in terms.

175 Arbalest  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:47:54pm

Potentially OT, but let me ask a question that I rarely hear or see asked:

How, exactly, does the theory of Evolution, and the evidence behind it, change or in any way undermine the New Testament?

I’m a mediocre Christian, haven’t read the Bible in quite some time, and I don’t see how Evolution undermines the New Testament.

There might be a small conflict with the Old Testament (7 days vs. a few billion years, Adam vs. slime mold to fish to primates to us), but the author of Genesis trying to explain such things to nomads, farmers and the like seems pointless. A simpler explanation of Creation suffices, at least until the audience matures enough.

176 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:48:06pm

re: #161 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Damn, those CO2 emissions really reach FAR out there, don't they!

When Al Gore speaks, methane melts on Uranus.
/sorry

177 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:48:31pm

re: #164 pre-Boomer Marine brat

More like a serious blockage.

178 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:48:43pm

re: #148 jcm

And Psalm 90: "A thousand years are like a day in Thy sight, like a watch that passes in the night." So who says it has to be 6 24-hour periods, as we know them?

179 bitsy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:48:47pm

re: #68 marjoriemoon

Thanks!

180 Catttt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:48:51pm

re: #135 EC Marm

Here's an interesting, fairly short test to take if you're sitting on the sidelines.
I still can't figure out which one I got wrong. Probably the Fed Reserve.

Thank you for the ego boost. I think I'll celebrate. :D But not as fun as when I beat my husband and all his brothers at Trivial Pursuit - that was truly sweet.

Did you see how low the averages are (shades of Jay Leno's person on the street questions)? I'm betting most lizardoids are way up there on this test.

181 DeafDog  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:49:04pm

re: #145 bj1126

I think that's where there is a difference of thought. Whenever there is a scientific unknown, according to ID school of thought, the temptation would then be to say, "God did it." That's fine from a theological point of view. From a scientific point of view, however, you have to stop and say, "we don't know." And then you start testing your null hypothoses. So injecting ID into science as an answer to some of the "we don't knows" without going through the scientific methods makes that approach inconsistent with science.

(I'm not expecting to convince you. I suppos I'm just trying to get my thoughts straight by typing them out).

182 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:49:27pm

re: #177 BlueCanuck

More like a serious blockage.

We can't tell the gender of the cat. Is the blockage a hernia or a hisnia?

183 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:49:31pm

re: #32 gozza

I see no reason why there cant be both (ID and evolution). "Guided" evolution is just as valid and just as provable as Darwinian evolution.

Not a chance. The empirical evidence for evolution is overwhelming; the empirical evidence for deific interventionism in the evolutionary process is nonexistent.

We dont know. And we will never know..

Actually, between the two, just plain evolution is the only one that CAN be scientifically, empirically known - and to an extremely high degree of probability.

Darwinists cant explain the 3 most important evolutionary events : the Cambrian Explosion, the formation of life, and human consciousness.
And ID's cant provide a single rational theory of anything.

The cambrian involved a lot more time than most folks realize; it was a longer period that the 65 million years between the extinction of the dinosaurs and now. It's not the business of evolutionary theory to explain the origin of life, just how it evolves and diversifies in response to environmental selection pressures (but see the OOL paper that Charles posted). And the advent of human consciousness is another thing that isn't within evolutionary theory's rubric to explain, but if you wanna find out a great deal about it, read I Am A Strange Loop, by Douglas Hofstadter.

I see this science on par with climate science ! That was bit low, but you know what I mean - lots of wild speculation, little fact, lots of emotion.

If that's where you see it, you need new glasses - ones that can register 150 years of success.

184 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:49:39pm

re: #173 ladycatnip

#124 Charles


This is where it gets sticky for some people of faith. For them the belief in creationism is pure dogma, and they get testy and threatened when it's challenged. My belief in creation is entirely that - a belief. It's based upon faith, NOT science. Which is exactly why it needs to stay out of the classroom.

Yes, and then alot of "history" would be thrown out too.

185 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:49:46pm

re: #165 nikis-knight

As I said, though, it's taught that chance is what makes changes availible for natural selection to work with.

A copy of a strand of dna is made. The copy is generally not perfect.
The imperfections are the "change", that change is generally undeterminable (random).

These are all known. These have been seen. They are fact.

186 Spiny Norman  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:49:55pm

re: #166 Throbert McGee

That is the key difference between Intelligent Design™ and theistic evolution -- the former insists that evolution without God's guidance is an outright scientific impossibility, while the latter insists on God's existence without making specific claims about the extent to which He must've been involved in the evolutionary process. (Or rather, theistic evolutionists might insist that God's involvement WAS required to give humans an immortal soul, but not for the biological evolution of Homo sapiens.)

Good point. A 100 + dings for that.

187 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:50:21pm

re: #182 pre-Boomer Marine brat

We can't tell the gender of the cat. Is the blockage a hernia or a hisnia?

If it's stupid enough to eat cat toys, it must be a male...

/just kidding, guys! MWAH!

188 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:50:44pm

re: #167 bj1126

I don't see why creating the earth with apparent age is deceitful. In the end it doesn't really matter either.

Because it's not true.

If God created the earth and universe 6000 years ago, but put in place all the physical indicators of great age IT WOULD BE A LIE.

No different from me making a pot yesterday and selling it to you as a Ming vase.

189 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:50:52pm

re: #162 Cognito

Is there a particular passage I can clarify?


From #67:

Am I the only one who believes these two ideas do not exclude each other?

Is this the first ID thread you have read?

190 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:51:10pm

re: #175 Arbalest

Potentially OT, but let me ask a question that I rarely hear or see asked:

How, exactly, does the theory of Evolution, and the evidence behind it, change or in any way undermine the New Testament?

Some people see it as challenging the idea that we really are who we are, that we have choices, or souls, that we are anything but meat machines who couldn't care less about what's in the New Testament or the Old Testament or any testament. So, they reason, since we have these testaments, then we are not meat machines, and Darwin is Satan, or at least wrong.

191 Racer X  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:51:11pm

re: #175 Arbalest

A simpler explanation of Creation suffices, at least until the audience matures enough.


That is a profound statement.

192 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:51:21pm

re: #168 Perry

Hair. Which pretty well kills it as a beverage.

Ick.

I was thinking something with Kahlua as an ingredient.

193 steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:51:41pm

Wow...Krauthammer speaks and everybody is ecstatic.

194 Cognito  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:51:47pm

re: #174 nikis-knight

But we are being told in this thread that theistic evolution is a contradiction in terms.

It can't be a contradiction, because neither half of the phrase excludes the other. Nothing in faith can falsify science. And nothing in science can falsify faith.

195 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:51:48pm

The problem with evolutionists is they can't roll anything back to the beginning.

Whatever the beginning is... where did that come from? It's a simple question.

/obviously I wasn't there, so I don't know either

196 Spiny Norman  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:52:09pm

re: #178 Kosh's Shadow

And Psalm 90: "A thousand years are like a day in Thy sight, like a watch that passes in the night." So who says it has to be 6 24-hour periods, as we know them?

I think reading that verse when I was 10 or 11 years old is when I began to doubt the "Young Earth Creationism" literalist dogma.

197 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:52:13pm

re: #180 Catttt

Thank you for the ego boost. I think I'll celebrate. :D But not as fun as when I beat my husband and all his brothers at Trivial Pursuit - that was truly sweet.

Did you see how low the averages are (shades of Jay Leno's person on the street questions)? I'm betting most lizardoids are way up there on this test.

Missed 2

198 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:52:15pm

re: #187 goddessoftheclassroom

ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF

199 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:52:49pm

re: #185 keithgabryelski

A copy of a strand of dna is made. The copy is generally not perfect.
The imperfections are the "change", that change is generally undeterminable (random).

These are all known. These have been seen. They are fact.

"undeterminable" Can mean either random or chosen by unknown criteria.

200 Annar  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:53:07pm

Technically there is no conflict between evolution and religion but it is understandable that many of the religious refuse to accept the idea of their god being pushed further to the background by science. Perhaps the fear is that monotheism may eventually be replaced by nullotheism.

201 steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:53:10pm

Last I heard, Evolution was still a theory!

202 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:53:39pm

Oh brother.

203 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:53:50pm

I guess my major problem with your posts lately Charles is the tone not the content. Creationists aren't the John Birch Society and you're not Buckley. I don't see a reason for your efforts to insult and deride creationists. I think you could better make your point through a more sympathetic tone.

What is this sh*t? It seems every day somebody gets down on charles about his blog and i'm effen sick of it..
Look when you put together one of the most popular blogs in the world then you can do and say what you will..
Charles has shown such patience with you religious effen freaks that think they know everything..I've never seen him insult anyone..just ban them when they walk over the line...Jeez some people will believe anything to make them feel better..
yea..people marched around Jericho and the walls just fell down..
a woman is made out of man's rib..
The Sun stopped in the sky for hours..
Rainbows only existed after the great flood
A chariot of fire picked up that prophet dude and gave him a ride to heaven..( good drugs i expect)
( enter your own myth from the bible here)
The Bible is only good for the morals it teaches..nothing more nothing less.
STOP trying to make it a scientific book...
jeez it's like Galileo all over again..This isn't 1610AD..

204 Cognito  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:53:51pm

re: #189 wrenchwench

I've not read many of them. It's not a topic I'm particularly interested in; and no, I haven't seen much consensus around an acceptance of both evolution and creation. It's been mostly a food fight, that I've seen. Hence the disinterest.

205 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:53:59pm

re: #195 faraway

The problem with evolutionists is they can't roll anything back to the beginning.

evolution does not discuss "how life started". That is a different field of study: abiogenesis.

Evolution is about how traits are passed from one organism to its progeny.

206 DeafDog  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:54:04pm

re: #193 steve

Wow...Krauthammer speaks and everybody is ecstatic.


With a name like "Kraut"-"Hammer", it is a shock.

207 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:54:30pm

re: #180 Catttt


Did you see how low the averages are (shades of Jay Leno's person on the street questions)? I'm betting most lizardoids are way up there on this test.


Yes, I did. Whenever I see a test like that I try to post it here, because no matter how tough it is, the folks here are always in the 95% percentile and higher.
Even the furriners. Hi PBC!

208 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:54:31pm

re: #200 Annar

Technically there is no conflict between evolution and religion but it is understandable that many of the religious refuse to accept the idea of their god being pushed further to the background by science. Perhaps the fear is that monotheism may eventually be replaced by nullotheism.

Science will never push God to the background.

209 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:54:33pm

re: #173 ladycatnip

#124 Charles
My belief in creation is entirely that - a belief. It's based upon faith, NOT science. Which is exactly why it needs to stay out of the classroom.

I believe science books tout a theory that we came from monkeys. Can this also please stay out of the classroom?

Now, some of you may have come from monkeys. But, I prefer not to teach my kids they are monkeys.

210 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:54:40pm

re: #188 jcm

Because it's not true.

If God created the earth and universe 6000 years ago, but put in place all the physical indicators of great age IT WOULD BE A LIE.

No different from me making a pot yesterday and selling it to you as a Ming vase.

bj1126 fell face-forward into a big pile of it with that one

211 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:54:47pm

re: #201 steve

Last I heard, Evolution was still a theory!

AIIIYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

212 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:55:33pm

re: #195 faraway

The problem with evolutionists is they can't roll anything back to the beginning.

Whatever the beginning is... where did that come from? It's a simple question.

/obviously I wasn't there, so I don't know either

Neither can ID.

Was it Allah, Buddha, God, Azathoth, the Great Greenarklesneizure or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? They dont have a clue and they're only "evidence" is bullshit.

213 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:55:54pm

re: #203 HoosierHoops

Ummmmmmmmm...a wee bit over the top?

214 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:56:05pm

re: #178 Kosh's Shadow

And Psalm 90: "A thousand years are like a day in Thy sight, like a watch that passes in the night." So who says it has to be 6 24-hour periods, as we know them?

Exactly, a good exposition of the Hebrew yowm in Genesis.T

herefore the reader can possibly chose from any of the above, which ever seems to connect with them the most. Referring back to Fig 1 from Strong's, you will note that "age" is also a valid translation for yowm, but the authors have used "time" or "phase" since these are our preference.
215 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:56:05pm

re: #205 keithgabryelski

evolution does not discuss "how life started". That is a different field of study: abiogenesis.

Evolution is about how traits are passed from one organism to its progeny.

See what I mean.

216 ContraJihadi  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:56:09pm

re: #56 keithgabryelski


[Part of the original post] Darwinists cant explain ... human counsciousness. [sic]

[Response] No. You are mistaken on this. Evolution is not only scientific fact, whose every element has been seen first hand, it is the only scientific theory that fits the evidence at hand.

The theory of evolution explains the the existence of rational self-consciousness among humans? A random congeries of external physical events defines the characteristic determinations of the purposeful, internal deliberations of the mind? I would be interested in knowing how this could occur and when it has been seen.

217 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:56:30pm

re: #198 pre-Boomer Marine brat

ARF ARF ARF ARF ARF

Wrong nic....
WOOF!

218 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:56:37pm

re: #199 nikis-knight

"undeterminable" Can mean either random or chosen by unknown criteria.

correct. Over millions of seen examples you can run statistics to tell if the flaws are, indeed, random -- and they are.

but that doesn't preclude the hand of god. It just restricts it to "random".

It seems best just to accept that god lets happen what will, in these cases.

219 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:56:51pm

re: #212 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Neither can ID.

Was it Allah, Buddha, God, Azathoth, the Great Greenarklesneizure or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? They dont have a clue and they're only "evidence" is bullshit.

Faith is not bullshit.

220 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:57:04pm

re: #202 Charles

Oh brother.


&#9834 Here they come,
walking down the street,
they get the funniest looks,
from everyone they meet... &#9834

221 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:57:08pm

re: #204 Cognito

I've not read many of them. It's not a topic I'm particularly interested in; and no, I haven't seen much consensus around an acceptance of both evolution and creation. It's been mostly a food fight, that I've seen. Hence the disinterest.

Your disinterest made you look ignorant, hence the reaction you got. Your point was "spot on," as you said, but at this point, it's "ad nauseum."

222 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:57:16pm

re: #212 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Neither can ID.

Was it Allah, Buddha, God, Azathoth, the Great Greenarklesneizure or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? They dont have a clue and they're only "evidence" is bullshit.

Nor is faith the same as evidence in the scientific sense.

223 Spiny Norman  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:57:18pm

re: #201 steve

Last I heard, Evolution was still a theory!

So is Relativity. If it were wrong, the atomic bomb would never have worked.

I think the term you thinking of is "Hypothesis". Not the same thing.

224 Cognito  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:57:24pm

re: #203 HoosierHoops

Jeez some people will believe anything to make them feel better..
yea..people marched around Jericho and the walls just fell down..
a woman is made out of man's rib..
The Sun stopped in the sky for hours..
Rainbows only existed after the great flood
A chariot of fire picked up that prophet dude and gave him a ride to heaven..( good drugs i expect)
( enter your own myth from the bible here)
The Bible is only good for the morals it teaches..nothing more nothing less.
STOP trying to make it a scientific book...
jeez it's like Galileo all over again..This isn't 1610AD..

See "gleeful anger."

225 Cognito  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:57:38pm

re: #221 wrenchwench


Eh.

226 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:57:41pm

re: #219 MandyManners

Faith is not bullshit.

Its not evidence either.

227 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:57:49pm

re: #71 keithgabryelski

It all comes back to The Cockroach God.

I'm sure Sal is please, dancing, half nekkid, by moonlight making screeching cockroach noises.

Half nekkid? Half measures! My full-moon bonfire-on-the-sand-dune circle-dancing is done completely and totally skyclad. Just like all the folks I am dancing with.

228 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:58:03pm

re: #216 ContraJihadi

The theory of evolution explains the the existence of rational self-consciousness among humans? A random congeries of external physical events defines the characteristic determinations of the purposeful, internal deliberations of the mind? I would be interested in knowing how this could occur and when it has been seen.

I see it in you.

229 Spiny Norman  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:58:06pm

*you're*

230 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:58:08pm

re: #180 Catttt

Thank you for the ego boost. I think I'll celebrate. :D But not as fun as when I beat my husband and all his brothers at Trivial Pursuit - that was truly sweet.

Did you see how low the averages are (shades of Jay Leno's person on the street questions)? I'm betting most lizardoids are way up there on this test.

I went 12 for 12. I knows me some stuff!

/

231 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:58:09pm

re: #200 Annar

Technically there is no conflict between evolution and religion but it is understandable that many of the religious refuse to accept the idea of their god being pushed further to the background by science. Perhaps the fear is that monotheism may eventually be replaced by nullotheism.

I'm sure there is some of that thinking and that it's not entirely bad logic.

I'm not suggesting this about people here because I haven't seen evidence of it, but there is a tendency in some circles to 'worship' science as the be-all and end-all of human understanding. While it is one of the best tools we have for understanding our environment, it has not yet led us to perfect understanding.....leaving at least some of what we 'know' open to question along with all that we don't know.

Religion may lead us to understanding in non-scientific ways that is just as true as if it had been discovered scientifically.

232 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:58:19pm

re: #226 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its not evidence either.

I hit POST too soon. See my No. 222, please.

233 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:58:22pm

re: #217 jcm

Wrong nic....
WOOF!

If I had some get-up-and-go, I'd go get my sock and have it bite her tail.

234 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:58:38pm

re: #207 EC Marm

Ummm, I am not PBC.

/Well if you mean Pro-Bush Canuck the poster.

//but I am pro Bush.

235 bj1126  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:58:44pm

re: #181 DeafDog

I do not consider our little discussion an argument so don't worry about that. I see your point which is why I don't think anything but local governments should be dictating school curriculum and plenty of choice should be available.

re: #188 jcm

Again it's only a lie in our limited perspective and knowledge. Creation as is described literally in Genesis would essentially mandate at least some apparent age. All of the plants and animals were created with apparent age and it follows logically that the earth would have as well to facilitate the nature as it was described.

236 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:58:44pm

re: #210 pre-Boomer Marine brat

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com...]

237 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:58:46pm

re: #225 Cognito

Eh.

I don't know why, but I just saved that to my "favorites."

238 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:59:03pm

re: #201 steve

We don't get that talking point as often as we used. I'm glad to see you're not embarrassed to still use it.

239 Kulhwch  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:59:20pm

re: #64 bitsy

"I think I'll make a lemur today!"

I was thinking of making chocolate cupcakes.

I wonder if there are special lemur pans ... mmm, a chocolate lemur w/sprinkles ...

}:)     [Do I have to wait for it to evolve or can someone make one right now?]

240 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:59:36pm

I see the down dingers work both ways here :-)

241 bitsy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 2:59:52pm

re: #93 MandyManners

Certainly!

I have this box of "Central Market Organic Chocolate Truffles" (arugula not included), and I have a theory that if I put them in the middle they will turn into a gooey chocolate center during baking.

242 jaunte  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:00:24pm

re: #168 Perry

I wonder what a drink called the "lemur" would have in it?

Hair. Which pretty well kills it as a beverage.

/best laugh of the day. Thanks.

243 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:00:34pm

re: #234 BlueCanuck

Ummm, I am not PBC.

/Well if you mean Pro-Bush Canuck the poster.

//but I am pro Bush.


Opps. Sorry. You furriners all look the same to me. :~)

244 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:00:44pm

re: #216 ContraJihadi

The theory of evolution explains the the existence of rational self-consciousness among humans? A random congeries of external physical events defines the characteristic determinations of the purposeful, internal deliberations of the mind? I would be interested in knowing how this could occur and when it has been seen.

Hey ContraJihadi, how are you?

You could pull my string on this one, and I could give you a very long discussion of it. Which is to say, it's not the non-sequitur it may appear. Dennett's "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" is about four hundred pages on the topic, and his "Freedom Evolves" is another three hundred. I don't think Dennett goes far enough, but he goes farther in the second book.

The question is, are humans the only ones with self-consciousness, or intelligence, or minds, or rationality? That's a pretty tough question right there, without getting into origins.

245 cliffster  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:01:20pm

re: #96 bj1126

I think you're probably lumping all the anti-ID camp together. There's been some people getting carried away and a tad insulting, but I don't think the one called Charles is one of them. Plus, I like the way he booted that joker BuddyG for posting an image that's offensive to you, more so than folks that believe in God

246 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:01:22pm

re: #233 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If I had some get-up-and-go, I'd go get my sock and have it bite her tail.

Ahhh...
Your get up and go got up and went.

247 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:01:51pm

re: #243 EC Marm

Opps. Sorry. You furriners all look the same to me. :~)

No problem, It's all us Canucks around here. I am sure there are a few other undeclared ones as well.

/but I know what to look for.

248 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:01:54pm

re: #213 MandyManners

Ummmmmmmmm...a wee bit over the top?

Sorry mandy.. give me a wack.. That's what the nuns did to me all the time anyway..

I am sorry if i offended you...

249 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:02:04pm

re: #223 Spiny Norman

the·o·ry Audio Help /ˈθiəri, ˈθɪəri/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ries. 1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3. Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
4. the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
5. a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.
6. contemplation or speculation.
7. guess or conjecture.


-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

[Origin: 1590–1600; < LL theōria < Gk theōría a viewing, contemplating, equiv. to theōr(eǐn) to view + -ia -y3]


—Synonyms 1. Theory, hypothesis are used in non-technical contexts to mean an untested idea or opinion. A theory in technical use is a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena: the theory of relativity. A hypothesis is a conjecture put forth as a possible explanation of phenomena or relations, which serves as a basis of argument or experimentation to reach the truth: This idea is only a hypothesis.

250 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:02:15pm

re: #236 goddessoftheclassroom

You have no idea how many allies I have ...

/hey guys, are any of you OUT there?
*gulp*

251 nikis-knight  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:02:26pm

re: #194 Cognito

Well, what was said by for example Looking Closely and Salamantis is that the term theistic evolution can only mean that God exists but hand nothing to do with evolution whatsoever after the Big Bang (or perhaps the moment of the inception of a protein or nucleic acid).
There is no room whatsoever for any divine intervention. Whatsoever. That is what I am reading in numerous people's posts.

That is incompatible with my faith, because no matter how metaphorical I take Genesis, and I do quite a bit, the whole point is the singular asertion that God did it. It doesn't say how, that is clearly not the main issue.

But if you all are really saying that it is proven God had no role in any of the development of Life, that this is the scientificly proven position, then please don't pretend this doesn't contradict the Christian God.

252 Catttt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:02:33pm

re: #201 steve

Last I heard, Evolution was still a theory!

Theory: a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation.

Some examples:

1. The Atomic Theory
2. The Theory of Matter and Energy: Conservation of Matter and Energy
3. The Cell Theory
4. The Germ Theory
5. The Theory of Plate Tectonics
6. The Theory of Evolution
7. The Big Bang Theory
8. Chaos Theory
9. The “Gaia” Theory of a Sustainable Earth which is illustrated with the idea of Spaceship Earth
10. The Theory of Quantum Mechanics
11. The Theory of Special Relativity which subsumes The Theory of General Relativity which subsumes Newtonian theories of motion
12. The Photon Theory of Light Energy and its speed of light
13. The Theory of Electromagnetism as begun by Maxwell and continued with the work of others
14. The Theory of Radioactivity or Nuclear Theory
15. The Theory of Molecular Bonds
16. The Theory of States of Matter—or is this part of the Atomic Theory and the Molecular Bond Theory?
17. The Theory of Thermodynamics—hey, I guess this theory takes care of the States of Matter and the Molecular Bond theories.
18. The Theory of Homeostasis within Living Organisms
19. The Constructivist Theory of Learning
20. The theories of self and development of mental processes in the brain.
21. Theory of Gravity

253 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:02:42pm

re: #188 jcm

Because it's not true.

If God created the earth and universe 6000 years ago, but put in place all the physical indicators of great age IT WOULD BE A LIE.

No different from me making a pot yesterday and selling it to you as a Ming vase.

Yep. As an atheist I have no god in this fight, but the whole idea that creationists would deliberately try to cast their God as a sort of celestial Nigerian scam artist is beyond me.

254 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:02:55pm

re: #250 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You have no idea how many allies I have ...

/hey guys, are any of you OUT there?
*gulp*

Are you riding a bus?

255 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:03:02pm

re: #250 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You have no idea how many allies I have ...

/hey guys, are any of you OUT there?
*gulp*

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

256 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:03:07pm

re: #202 Charles

Oh brother.

We agree on that one Charles!
lol! (just what I was thinking!)

257 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:03:11pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

Thank you! I like trying to keep a 'discussion' open.

258 Racer X  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:03:33pm

Crepes all muddy!

It is almost like there has to be a disclaimer on every post now.

My suggestion:

Previously on LGF -
ID proponents are sneakily trying to pass off their religious beliefs as science to be taught in public schools.

Belief in science does not negate a belief in God.
Belief in God does not negate a belief in science.

Evolution and religion can coexist!

ID is not science.
Evolution is science.

ID proponents have been aligning themselves with Islamic fundamentalists (this is very bad).

As you were.

259 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:03:37pm

re: #246 jcm

Ahhh...
Your get up and go got up and went.

If I make a move NOW, ... I'm toast

260 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:03:48pm

re: #241 bitsy

Certainly!

I have this box of "Central Market Organic Chocolate Truffles" (arugula not included), and I have a theory that if I put them in the middle they will turn into a gooey chocolate center during baking.

Does it go with fine bourbon?

261 bitsy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:03:50pm

re: #122 MandyManners

I wonder what a drink called the "lemur" would have in it?

I'm guessing alot of rum, but I am preggars so I hafta stick to chocolate for now.

262 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:04:00pm

Hmmm, Hellboy or Indy 4. Choices choices. Anyway have yourselves a good night and keep the ideology on the low key folks.

/god is a mathematician

263 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:04:25pm

7. The Big Bang Theory
/I love that show

264 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:04:32pm

re: #248 HoosierHoops

Sorry mandy.. give me a wack.. That's what the nuns did to me all the time anyway..

I am sorry if i offended you...

That's okay. This topic inspires passion.

265 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:04:48pm

re: #255 goddessoftheclassroom

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

I'm back!

266 Cognito  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:05:06pm

re: #252 Catttt

I'm sorry, but that last bit is starting to get under my skin. Newton's law of universal gravitation is just that: a law.

267 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:05:08pm

re: #249 Steve

Oh, no. You whipped out your dictionary.

268 venjanz  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:05:10pm

re: #201 steve

In science a theory is a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation.

When talkin' science, "theory" is not synonymous with "conjecture."

269 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:05:13pm

re: #250 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Hold on one second and I will get my sockpuppet.

/well at least it's furry.

270 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:05:15pm

The best of both positions:

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com...]

271 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:05:43pm

Love to stay and throw food, but I've got places to meet, and people to go. Later.

272 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:05:47pm

re: #254 faraway

Are you riding a bus?

Why am I down here desperately hanging onto the undercarriage?!?

273 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:05:56pm

re: #232 MandyManners

I hit POST too soon. See my No. 222, please.

Saw it. I'm not saying Faith in a higher being (which I do have) is bullshit. I'm saying relying solely on Faith to prove or disprove a scientific theory with no other supporting evidence is bullshit and a waste of time. Believe what you wish, but if you are going to try to convince me (or many others apparently), they need a better arguement than "because we say so" and wanting us to disregard all contradictory evidence.

274 Da_Beerfreak  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:06:00pm

re: #52 MandyManners

After his attack on the disabled earlier today, I don't have the patience to restrain myself.

We're all friends here.
We'll help you hide the body.
// {;-)™

275 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:06:08pm

re: #51 marjoriemoon
Remember, 97 percent of dirty old men prefer Hershey's

276 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:06:15pm

re: #261 bitsy

I'm guessing alot of rum, but I am preggars so I hafta stick to chocolate for now.

When are you due?

277 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:06:27pm

re: #267 MandyManners

Oh, no. You whipped out your dictionary.

I always say "when in doubt, you shuold whip it out!"
I likes Teddy.

278 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:06:28pm

re: #270 goddessoftheclassroom

The best of both positions:

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com.. .]

Now we know what Obama's oficial photographer used to do before Barry hired him/her.

279 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:06:40pm

re: #195 faraway

The problem with evolutionists is they can't roll anything back to the beginning.

Whatever the beginning is... where did that come from? It's a simple question.

/obviously I wasn't there, so I don't know either

This is a really good question, and one science hasn't really been able to explain, yet. I think the theory of evolution has shed a light on a great many things, but there is some work left to do, which is pretty exciting and very interesting. Most scientists don't want to work in fields where everything is known, fortunately there isn't a scientific theory yet that explains everything within its scope of application.

280 jaunte  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:06:43pm

re: #258 Racer X

One addition to your summation:
"Belief in science does not negate a belief in God.*"

* This is where the DI politicians are trying to shove in the Wedge.

281 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:06:48pm

re: #96 bj1126

I am a Christian and "creationist" if you want to call it that though no where near as militant in my beliefs as many. I'm also an IT admin and pretty tech savvy guy. My job and nature dictates that I solve problems. I've also learned over my 10 year career not to be attached to things because as our collective knowledge changes so does our perspective on technology.

Maybe it's because I have trouble with the differences in the terms evolution and adaptation but there are things about evolution that have never been sufficiently explained to me and most of the proof for it to me looks more like adaptation. That however doesn't lead me to believe solely in 6 day creation or ID. It also doesn't cause me to question my belief in God. God as I believe in Him is capable of anything and could have created the world in 6 days and made it appear ancient or could have directed evolution or taken a hands off approach and let evolution run its course. I refuse to limit his abilities based on my potentially flawed understanding of His creation or Word.

I guess my major problem with your posts lately Charles is the tone not the content. Creationists aren't the John Birch Society and you're not Buckley. I don't see a reason for your efforts to insult and deride creationists. I think you could better make your point through a more sympathetic tone.

Read up on the Discovery Institute, their Wedge Strategy, and their connections with the Dominionists and with Harun Yahya. I find them to be much more dangerous than the John Birch Society ever was.

282 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:06:56pm

re: #266 Cognito

I'm sorry, but that last bit is starting to get under my skin. Newton's law of universal gravitation is just that: a law.

It's just a theory......
Until you hit the ground.

283 Catttt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:06:57pm

I forgot to include the compiler of my theories short list:

Valerie's soapbox

284 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:07:16pm

re: #282 jcm

It's just a theory......
Until you hit the ground.

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com...]

285 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:07:31pm

re: #57 looking closely

A psychiatrist yet.

286 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:07:51pm

re: #273 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Saw it. I'm not saying Faith in a higher being (which I do have) is bullshit. I'm saying relying solely on Faith to prove or disprove a scientific theory with no other supporting evidence is bullshit and a waste of time. Believe what you wish, but if you are going to try to convince me (or many others apparently), they need a better arguement than "because we say so" and wanting us to disregard all contradictory evidence.

I've never made that argument. I believe it's possible to keep the two separate except for one area, and that's the area of where it all started.

287 ladycatnip  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:07:58pm

#209 faraway

I believe science books tout a theory that we came from monkeys. Can this also please stay out of the classroom?

Now, some of you may have come from monkeys. But, I prefer not to teach my kids they are monkeys.

You don't have to teach your kids that we came from monkeys. We didn't. We taught our kids (who are all adults now) biblical creation as they were growing up. When they attended public high school, their sciences classes taught evolution. It was never a problem; just a different opinion. We didn't ridicule the teachers or textbooks, and our kids learned a valuable lesson - not everybody believes the same as we do and that's ok.

288 DeafDog  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:08:03pm

re: #235 bj1126

I'm all for school choice and I do believe that one of the choices should be a school that includes religion/bible/torah/koran studies and prayers. If the religious studies included teaching about Adam & Eve and creationalism, I would not object.

Whether creationalism taught as science should be a part of any school curriculum is a different matter. If it was to be propsed in my local district I would argue against it.

289 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:08:05pm

re: #262 BlueCanuck

Hmmm, Hellboy or Indy 4. Choices choices. Anyway have yourselves a good night and keep the ideology on the low key folks.

/god is a mathematician

Hellboy.

290 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:08:17pm

re: #274 Da_Beerfreak

We're all friends here.
We'll help you hide the body.
// {;-)™

Ah gotz me a root cellar.

291 Catttt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:08:23pm

re: #248 HoosierHoops

Sorry mandy.. give me a wack.. That's what the nuns did to me all the time anyway..

I am sorry if i offended you...

I lasted one month in Catholic school, because I wacked back.

292 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:08:25pm

re: #268 venjanz

Theory becomes 'fact' only when it is repeatable.

(i.e.) gravity. Pickup an object and let go of it and see what happens.
if it continually falls to the ground gravity is fact and not a hypothis or a theory.

293 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:08:29pm

Big Bang Theory
Doesnt that one involve 90% dark matter (which has never been proven). Not to mention, what happened before that? Where did the little blob come from?

294 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:08:37pm

re: #100 theheat

Shoulda been a plus. 'Scuze me.

295 ContraJihadi  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:08:43pm

re: #244 itellu3times

Hey ContraJihadi, how are you?

You could pull my string on this one, and I could give you a very long discussion of it. Which is to say, it's not the non-sequitur it may appear. Dennett's "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" is about four hundred pages on the topic, and his "Freedom Evolves" is another three hundred. I don't think Dennett goes far enough, but he goes farther in the second book.

The question is, are humans the only ones with self-consciousness, or intelligence, or minds, or rationality? That's a pretty tough question right there, without getting into origins.

I'm getting by, itellu3times. My son will be coming out for a visit next month. That should sooth some of the grumbles.

I guess we'll have to leave this as an open question for now. I read a fellow some time ago--it might have been Dennett--who did not convince me that the methods of natural science, which consider substances solely as externalities, could adequately explain the subject-interiority of consciousness. He said something like we don't really see red, we see wave lengths. I found this assertion unpersuasive, or at least trivial.

296 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:08:53pm

re: #277 VegasRick

I always say "when in doubt, you shuold whip it out!"
I likes Teddy.

Kennedy or Kacinzsky?

297 wong fei hung  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:09:00pm

I don't recall disagreeing with a damn thing Krauthammer has ever written. The guy's a legend.

-WFH

298 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:09:12pm

re: #296 MandyManners

Kennedy or Kacinzsky?

As long as it isn't Bundy...

299 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:09:38pm

re: #296 MandyManners

Kennedy or Kacinzsky?

Sweaty

300 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:09:43pm

re: #68 marjoriemoon

Was God on a bender or a really big high when he did the platypus?

301 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:09:49pm

re: #281 Salamantis

Read up on the Discovery Institute, their Wedge Strategy, and their connections with the Dominionists and with Harun Yahya. I find them to be much more dangerous than the John Birch Society ever was.

On that we can agree...maybe.

302 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:10:04pm

re: #284 goddessoftheclassroom

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com.. .]

That's inertia!

303 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:10:07pm

re: #289 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Hellboy.


go see both.

304 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:10:10pm

re: #298 goddessoftheclassroom

As long as it isn't Bundy...

Had a party when he got fried.

305 ContraJihadi  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:10:17pm

re: #228 keithgabryelski

I see it in you.

Close but no cigar.

306 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:10:47pm

re: #304 MandyManners

Had a party when he got fried.

One reason why I support the death penalty.

307 Sabnen  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:11:03pm

re: #209 faraway

If we were descended from monkeys there would no longer be monkeys, get it?

Breed a big dog with a little dog and you get a middle sized dog, get it?

After the Scopes "Monkey Trial" in Dayton, Tennessee a polling of the jurors (mostly farmers) after the trial had most of them saying that animal husbandry resulted in better animals for them. Big cow + Big cow = Big cow. They got it, do you?

308 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:11:11pm

Got to get ready for the drama camp showcase. Have a great evening, dear Lizard!

309 FamHistoryGuy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:11:28pm

re: #173 ladycatnip

When people have a belief that is tightly entwined with their self-concept it tends to make any opposition to that belief considered a direct attack on their person. This tends to result in the extreme reactions to what others consider normal give and take of difference of opinions.

310 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:11:38pm

re: #305 ContraJihadi

I see it in you.

Close but no cigar.

Monica, is that you?

311 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:11:40pm
312 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:11:44pm

re: #299 VegasRick

Sweaty

Sweaty? Like Pete Schweaty and his holiday balls on SNL?

313 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:12:29pm

re: #306 goddessoftheclassroom

One reason why I support the death penalty.

It's final.

314 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:12:35pm

re: #284 goddessoftheclassroom

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com.. .]

I once knew a lady who had a cat that fat. Every time the cat was out in the back yard and even looked at a bird, the woman fed it. Damn cat was a blimp.

315 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:12:39pm

re: #286 MandyManners

I've never made that argument. I believe it's possible to keep the two separate except for one area, and that's the area of where it all started.

I'm not saying you did. Sorry if you though I had. As for how it all started, I really dont have a clue and not overly concerned with it. I figure God will clue us in if its important and until then, worry about taking care of myself and my family

316 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:12:45pm

re: #175 Arbalest

I think that for some Christians- Genesis must be literal due to Man's fall from Grace in order for Jesus to atone for our sins. Without Original Sin, there was no need for Jesus to be the Sacrificial Lamb. Hope that helps, but also bear in mind it's just my opinion.

317 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:12:45pm

re: #308 goddessoftheclassroom

Got to get ready for the drama camp showcase. Have a great evening, dear Lizard!

Break a leg!

318 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:12:51pm

re: #312 MandyManners

Sweaty? Like Pete Schweaty and his holiday balls on SNL?

Ted Nugent.

319 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:13:22pm

re: #315 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm not saying you did. Sorry if you though I had. As for how it all started, I really dont have a clue and not overly concerned with it. I figure God will clue us in if its important and until then, worry about taking care of myself and my family

That's about all we can do.

320 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:13:48pm

re: #318 VegasRick

Ted Nugent.

Duh.

321 ibmkeyboard  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:13:59pm

[Link: crustacea.nhm.org...]

Page down to the samurai crab.

since 1100 it has developed a face on it back for survival.

Evolution intelligence design for survival.

322 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:14:10pm

re: #145 bj1126

Ideally I think there should be schools that don't and do teach it and parents should be able to choose which type of school their child goes to. It's too hard to dictate the tone and presentation of both and its not possible to please everyone. I will say that it doesn't benefit even staunch creationists to be ignorant of evolution.

It's that way now; it's called public vs. private school.

323 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:14:14pm

re: #308 goddessoftheclassroom

Got to get ready for the drama camp showcase. Have a great evening, dear Lizard!

{goddess}

324 bitsy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:14:33pm

re: #209 faraway

I believe science books tout a theory that we came from monkeys.

You weren't reading those books very closely, were you?

325 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:14:53pm

"The trouble is, Sancho," said Don Quixote, "you are so afraid that you cannot see or hear properly; for one of the effects of fear is to disturb the senses and cause things to appear other than they are."

Miguel De Cervantes


I think that about covers both sides of the issue.
Steve

326 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:14:56pm

re: #307 Sabnen

If we were descended from monkeys there would no longer be monkeys, get it?

Breed a big dog with a little dog and you get a middle sized dog, get it?

Look, maybe they don't have logic where you are. You breed a big dog and a little dog. OK, great. Now their offspring produce a new breed. What about the other 50 million big and little dogs out there humping away? Sheesh.

327 cliffster  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:16:18pm

Salamantis is on the prowl again

328 Racer X  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:16:44pm

re: #318 VegasRick

Ted Nugent.

Its a Free For All

329 DeafDog  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:17:05pm

Beer O'clock!

So long

330 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:17:05pm

Friday Night Fights

331 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:17:14pm

re: #318 VegasRick

Ted Nugent.

Meow.

332 BBev  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:18:02pm

I have always thought that God gave us the ability through science to figure this all out he gave us the large brain through evolution to get to where we are now and where we should be going.

333 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:18:23pm

re: #320 MandyManners

Duh.

Talk about evolving!

334 SFGoth  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:18:56pm

I have come to the conclusion that ID is partially correct. God must have created the plants because marijuana is something so wonderful that it could not have randomly evolved. We should thank Her for it and be happy we evolved to have THC receptors in our brains!

335 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:19:10pm

re: #307 Sabnen

If we were descended from monkeys there would no longer be monkeys

As a matter of fact, no, I do NOT get it. Would you please explain it in terms of monkeys, not dogs or cows.

336 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:19:32pm

Alright, let me inject a little sanity here. All you honkies , listen up.
You all came out of a botched lab experiment by a Black scientist.
I know ths for a fact , from Minister Farahkan.

337 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:19:45pm

re: #209 faraway

I believe science books tout a theory that we came from monkeys. Can this also please stay out of the classroom?

Now, some of you may have come from monkeys. But, I prefer not to teach my kids they are monkeys.

Human beings did not "come from monkeys."

The species Homo Sapiens evolved from a line of primate creatures that probably originated in Africa. Genetic studies have shown that our closest living relatives in the animal world are chimpanzees, which indicates that they probably had a common ancestor before diverging into a different branch on the evolutionary tree.

There are mountains of evidence to support these assertions. Of course, you can choose to deny it all if you like.

338 ContraJihadi  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:20:00pm

I tell you what, itellu < bad, bad pun >. I am rereading Hegel's Logic right now; you can be sure he has something to say about the finitude of the ontology of the empirical method vs. the infinity of mind. But after I finish, I'll try to find Dennett in the library, maybe ask my son "the doctah, already" (he's an empirical science kind of guy) what he thinks about this stuff. Then we and maybe some other lizards can revisit this issue.

But for now, I have to go.

Be brave, lizards, but be polite.

339 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:20:45pm

re: #231 eschew_obfuscation

I'm sure there is some of that thinking and that it's not entirely bad logic.

I'm not suggesting this about people here because I haven't seen evidence of it, but there is a tendency in some circles to 'worship' science as the be-all and end-all of human understanding. While it is one of the best tools we have for understanding our environment, it has not yet led us to perfect understanding.....leaving at least some of what we 'know' open to question along with all that we don't know.

Religion may lead us to understanding in non-scientific ways that is just as true as if it had been discovered scientifically.

Science is a tool for understanding the universe, but morality has to guide its use. Science without moral guidance as to its application is a pretty damned dangerous thing, and that's where people of faith need to be focused, not puttering around with the nuts and bolts.

It's two different kinds of understanding.

340 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:20:47pm

re: #334 SFGoth

I have come to the conclusion that ID is partially correct. God must have created the plants because marijuana is something so wonderful that it could not have randomly evolved. We should thank Her for it and be happy we evolved to have THC receptors in our brains!


All things are lawful but not profitable. Be careful what you choose!

341 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:21:22pm

re: #328 Racer X

Its a Free For All

re: #334 SFGoth

I have come to the conclusion that ID is partially correct. God must have created the plants because marijuana is something so wonderful that it could not have randomly evolved. We should thank Her for it and be happy we evolved to have THC receptors in our brains!

Keep smokin', dude.

342 Racer X  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:21:37pm

re: #334 SFGoth

Pass the bong down here.

343 cliffster  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:22:07pm

*ding* *ding*

The sound of people getting off work and slowly making their way chronologically through the Intelligent Design threads.

344 BBev  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:22:26pm

re: #336 opnion


Dam I knew there was something wrong with me.

345 bitsy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:22:57pm

re: #276 MandyManners

mid-october ... probably a libra. I wonder how he will get along with all the scorpios and leos in my family.

346 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:23:49pm

re: #333 VegasRick

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

Talk about evolving!

Yes!

347 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:23:54pm

a movie moment - who said (IMOW)
There are some who say Man is derived from an ape. There are some who will tell you that I'm derived from and ape. But, tell me , who will say that Robert E. lee is derived from an ape?

348 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:24:05pm

re: #195 faraway

The problem with evolutionists is they can't roll anything back to the beginning.

Whatever the beginning is... where did that come from? It's a simple question.

/obviously I wasn't there, so I don't know either

It's also a question that is not addresssed by evolutionary theory, which only considers the diversification and speciation of already-present life.

349 ladycatnip  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:24:18pm

#309 FamHistoryGuy

When people have a belief that is tightly entwined with their self-concept it tends to make any opposition to that belief considered a direct attack on their person. This tends to result in the extreme reactions to what others consider normal give and take of difference of opinions.

Thank you! It only took you two sentences to say what I've been trying to say in a multitude of posts. Succinct, and right on the mark.

350 freetoken  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:24:23pm

re: #130 ladycatnip

For those here who believe that ID should be in the same cracked pot as global warming - here's some good news on that: American Physical Society has reversed their stand on GW.

De-bunk away!

No, they have not. The following is a copy of what I posted in the spinoff links yesterday.

The headlines of the DailyTech article, and especially that of Drudge, is in error.

Among the APS there are forums that are open to various members who are interested in various specialties.

One of these forums is Physics and Society, which deals with how science affects the greater society.

The editor of the forum has spoken of his intent here:

Since the correctness or fallacy of that conclusion has immense implications for public policy and for the future of the biosphere, we thought it appropriate to present a debate within the pages of P&S concerning that conclusion.


Since the editors of the forum recognize the importance of the debate to society, they thought it important to have a discussion of the objection raised by a few that the effect of CO2 is less than that used in the latest IPCC summary. Lord Monckton is one of those. Thus the editors are opening a debate between Lord Monckton and a couple of physicists who represent the majority opinion.

Note that Lord Monckton will not be arguing that CO2 has no affect, but rather that the effect is smaller and in his judgement harmless.

The APS itself has not changed its opinion on global warming, which can be found here. Indeed, the APS has put on its front page it reaffirmation of its statement.

351 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:24:33pm

re: #203 HoosierHoops

Paging Bishop Usher, paging Bishop Usher!

352 BBev  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:24:34pm

Well this was my last day at my old job nd the boss offered me huge money to stay. I'm still going or should I say I'm gone.

353 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:24:55pm

re: #346 MandyManners

Yes!

Listening to it now.

354 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:24:59pm

re: #347 xtraBilly

a movie moment - who said (IMOW)
There are some who say Man is derived from an ape. There are some who will tell you that I'm derived from and ape. But, tell me , who will say that Robert E. lee is derived from an ape?

Tom Berenger, playing the role of Longstreet in "Gettysburg"

355 vapig  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:25:01pm

Good evening, lizards! Tyme to drinketh the nectar of the hops and barley!

356 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:25:20pm

re: #334 SFGoth

I have come to the conclusion that ID is partially correct. God must have created the plants because marijuana is something so wonderful that it could not have randomly evolved. We should thank Her for it and be happy we evolved to have THC receptors in our brains!

Dude. That's like, deep or sumpin'.

357 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:26:07pm

re: #352 BBev

Well this was my last day at my old job nd the boss offered me huge money to stay. I'm still going or should I say I'm gone.

a Johnnie Paycheck fan?

358 theheat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:26:20pm

re: #153 eschew_obfuscation

On what basis do you assume that home schooling is based on parents desire to keep their children away from science class!

How about the fact the parents themselves told me so? Does that work for you? I am speaking from what I know first-hand, not a chapter from the brownshirt handbook.

Case in point, once child came home one day saying the neighbor kids teased her when she told them dinosaur bones were planted by scientists to "go against the bible". Her parents told her this, of course, as was the mantra of the particular Fundie sect they belonged to.

That was the last day of public school for that girl. She and the rest of her siblings were homeschooled from that day forward. In fact, the church they attended recommended homeschooling to all its parents because so many things taught in public school are not congruent with their biblical interpretations, natural history being one subject in particular.

It's the same kind of narrow-minded paranoid isolationism as the FLDS practice i.e. child abuse. And, yes, anti-science (ID) does play a part of that.

359 Racer X  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:26:29pm

iirc Homo Sapiens evolved from Neanderthals primarily due to a larger brain. What made the brain larger? Eating protein - meat.

I love Ted Nugent.

360 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:26:30pm

re: #347 xtraBilly

a movie moment - who said (IMOW)
There are some who say Man is derived from an ape. There are some who will tell you that I'm derived from and ape. But, tell me , who will say that Robert E. lee is derived from an ape?

ummm......Richard Simmons?

361 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:26:33pm

re: #356 MandyManners

Dude. That's like, deep or sumpin'.

Oh fer sure, fer sure!

/gag me with a snow shovel

362 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:26:37pm

re: #201 steve

Last I heard, Evolution was still a theory!

Last I heard, the word 'theory', in scientific parlance (as opposed to its common parlance connotation of 'weak') meant something extremely well supported by a plethora of empirical evidence.

363 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:26:45pm

re: #354 pre-Boomer Marine brat

no close but let's move on.

364 BBev  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:26:51pm

re: #357 xtraBilly

a Johnnie Paycheck fan?

Ya. thats cool

365 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:27:11pm

re: #352 BBev

Well this was my last day at my old job nd the boss offered me huge money to stay. I'm still going or should I say I'm gone.

Most of the time they're missing the fact that if money were the answer you'd have been pushing for a raise. You'd be gone even if you stayed.

Good luck on your new endeavors.

366 tgibson1962  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:27:23pm

re: #316 Sharmuta

I think that for some Christians- Genesis must be literal due to Man's fall from Grace in order for Jesus to atone for our sins. Without Original Sin, there was no need for Jesus to be the Sacrificial Lamb. Hope that helps, but also bear in mind it's just my opinion.

That's at least part of it, although I've heard Original Sin called one of the most denied and best attested doctrines in human history.

The rub, for me at least, is that Christ took Genesis seriously in the Gospels. He didn't back away it, nor did He attempt to correct people's ideas regarding what it taught. Neither did the Apostle Paul.

367 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:27:29pm

re: #344 BBev

Dam I knew there was something wrong with me.


There ya go

368 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:27:51pm

re: #350 freetoken

That was what I learned yesterday too, as I looked into this story, and it's why I didn't jump on the bandwagon and post this as some kind of devastating blow to the global warming crowd. It isn't. It may become one, if the science holds up, but at this time Monckton's paper hasn't even been peer reviewed as far as I know.

Unfortunately, there are politics on both sides of this issue, and nothing can be taken at face value -- especially not anything the media says.

369 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:27:55pm

re: #360 VegasRick

ummm......Richard Simmons?

Man you are so not there.

370 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:27:59pm

re: #352 BBev

Well this was my last day at my old job nd the boss offered me huge money to stay. I'm still going or should I say I'm gone.


what is it worth to you? ;P

371 USBeast  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:28:05pm

re: #9 Charles

The big question, though, is why does Charles Krauthammer hate God?

cough

Well, if God made you to resemble Howard Handupme wouldn't you be the least little bit miffed?

372 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:28:18pm

re: #337 Charles

Human beings did not "come from monkeys."

The species Homo Sapiens evolved from a line of primate creatures that probably originated in Africa. Genetic studies have shown that our closest living relatives in the animal world are chimpanzees, which indicates that they probably had a common ancestor before diverging into a different branch on the evolutionary tree.

There are mountains of evidence to support these assertions. Of course, you can choose to deny it all if you like.

I have to part with that. I believe God created humans uniquely. I believe we have a soul, a sense of consciousness, that other primates don't have. Maybe our direct ancestors did, too, and maybe God picked out a particular set of them to have souls and the like. But, I have no idea.

373 cliffster  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:29:30pm

re: #352 BBev

Well this was my last day at my old job nd the boss offered me huge money to stay. I'm still going or should I say I'm gone.

I had a similar situation and my boss gave me big money and a nice promotion. I wouldn't have taken it if it was just the money but big raise and good new job description has made it worth staying on.

374 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:29:34pm

re: #359 Racer X

iirc Homo Sapiens evolved from Neanderthals primarily due to a larger brain. What made the brain larger? Eating protein - meat.

I love Ted Nugent.

Thanks! That is AWESOME!

375 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:30:13pm

re: #209 faraway

I believe science books tout a theory that we came from monkeys. Can this also please stay out of the classroom?

Now, some of you may have come from monkeys. But, I prefer not to teach my kids they are monkeys.

So, you'd prefer not to teach your kids the empirically verifiable facts that humans and great apes diverged from common ancestors?

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

I guess that makes you kinda like that liar god that all those YEC's seem to have fallen in love with...

376 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:30:25pm

re: #369 xtraBilly

Man you are so not there.

The pressure was on! I just threw that out!

377 DistantThunder  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:30:57pm

re: #12 Ringo the Gringo

Then you probably won't like this quote by a long time LGF favorite:

The fact is that this is a planet overwhelmingly dominated and shaped by one species, and our kith and kin – whether gibbons or pumpkins – basically fit in in the spaces between. That’s pretty much the world the Psalmist outlined in the Old Testament thousands of years ago. By comparison, the evolutionists’ insistence that we’re just another “animal” seems perverse and irrational and refuted by a casual glance out the window. I am coming round to the view that hyper-rationalism is highly irrational.

~ Mark Steyn


(found at this link)

There are more bugs than people, and for millennia, bugs have had their way with us, and in most parts of the world, they still do. Our friend living in Belize says there is a type of fire ant that takes over the whole house. It swarms, and moves through like a wave. They cover the roof and enter all the rooms - he had to move out for a few days.

378 Catttt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:30:59pm

re: #266 Cognito

I'm sorry, but that last bit is starting to get under my skin. Newton's law of universal gravitation is just that: a law.

Arguable.

379 Wendya  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:31:27pm

re: #96 bj1126


I guess my major problem with your posts lately Charles is the tone not the content. Creationists aren't the John Birch Society and you're not Buckley. I don't see a reason for your efforts to insult and deride creationists. I think you could better make your point through a more sympathetic tone.

You're imagining the tone you want to see. That's my major problem with IDers and Creationists. They want us to pander to their feelings and reinforce their belief. I'm not going to do that and it doesn't make me anti-Christian in the least.

380 ladycatnip  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:32:02pm

#350 freetoken

The APS itself has not changed its opinion on global warming, which can be found here. Indeed, the APS has put on its front page it reaffirmation of its statement.

Thanks for the correction, and I did get my info off Drudge. At least the APS is open to debate, which is encouraging, as there are those pushing this that would be willing to criminalize dissenters. I believe GW to be the biggest hoax perpetrated on mankind yet.

381 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:32:28pm

re: #376 VegasRick

The pressure was on! I just threw that out!

Don't feel bad. Life is a journey.

382 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:32:41pm

re: #295 ContraJihadi

I guess we'll have to leave this as an open question for now. I read a fellow some time ago--it might have been Dennett--who did not convince me that the methods of natural science, which consider substances solely as externalities, could adequately explain the subject-interiority of consciousness. He said something like we don't really see red, we see wave lengths. I found this assertion unpersuasive, or at least trivial.

That could have been Dennett, he does tend to wave off the subjectivity of "qualia", as they call it, maybe just a little too soon.

The alternative is to privilege the phenomenological, and ask questions like, "What is it like to be a bat?". There is endless discussion in philosophy of mind, and the related topic of artificial intelligence, about what it is like, to have a pain? Could a computer have a pain, or see red, or be conscious? The related question is, could humans? An alternate question is, can a dog?

For that matter, it is hard to answer the "other minds" question, which is, how do you know that I am conscious, or see red, the same way you do? When it turns out that such simple questions are very nearly unanswerable, it puts the grander questions into a different perspective.

383 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:32:57pm

re: #366 tgibson1962

Well- I did say it was just my opinion.

384 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:33:09pm

re: #381 xtraBilly

Don't feel bad. Life is a journey.

Don't stop belivin?

385 Pshawalaw  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:33:20pm
How ridiculous to make evolution the enemy of God.

-CK

And how equally ridiculous it is to make God the enemy of evolution. A new discipline that illustrates those two concepts is a new curriculum for our schools which I could get behind. And, given the level this discussion takes, it is a discipline which should be taught; clearly there is far too little understanding about the parameters of both religion and science, or that one another need not be construed to cancel out the other entity.

386 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:33:46pm

re: #337 Charles

Human beings did not "come from monkeys."

The species Homo Sapiens evolved from a line of primate creatures that probably originated in Africa. Genetic studies have shown that our closest living relatives in the animal world are chimpanzees, which indicates that they probably had a common ancestor before diverging into a different branch on the evolutionary tree.

There are mountains of evidence to support these assertions. of course, you can choose to deny it all if you like.

The latest genetic studies show that we originated from a small band of humans in Africa. See Human Genome Project

Separate teams of researchers from Stanford and the University of Michigan have found convincing evidence locked inside the human genome that much of the world today is populated by descendants of a small band of migrants who left Africa for the Middle East some 100,000 years ago.

Is there evidence of a "common ancestor"? Do you have a link for pics of the bones of this thing?

What was this "common ancestor"? More man or more monkey? (maybe lizard?)

387 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:33:47pm

re: #359 Racer X

iirc Homo Sapiens evolved from Neanderthals primarily due to a larger brain. What made the brain larger? Eating protein - meat.

I do not believe that anyone says homo sapiens evolved from neanderthals.

388 Sabnen  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:34:14pm

re: #326 faraway

There you go you're starting to think like an evolutionist!

Yes! Now we have 50 million dogs "humping away" (crude, but I'll use it) and then certain traits favorable or unfavorable are created, perpetuated or discarded as per the Theory of Evolution.

Man has intervened and bred certain dogs for certain traits and we've provided them with an environment in which they can thrive and reproduce those traits we find favorable and perpetuated.

Those short-legged, badger-hunting dachshunds have always fascinated me!
They're so cute!

Okay, back to topic . . . the down-side with all the breed specificity we have is, in-breeding. Some breeds of dog are not as genetically vigorous as they used to be and they have massive health problems. But then, if they can't reproduce, those negative health problems/traits are discarded.

Dog breeding is such a great bit of evolution writ small. Get it?

389 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:34:20pm

re: #195 faraway

The problem with evolutionists is they can't roll anything back to the beginning.

That's not their job; evolutionary theory doesn't consider the beginnings of all life.

Whatever the beginning is... where did that come from? It's a simple question.

/obviously I wasn't there, so I don't know either

Which beginning? The biological beginning? The cosmological beginning? There is no such thing as 'before the Big Bang', btw...

But under the turtle on the bottom is usually the top of a post.

390 BBev  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:34:26pm

re: #370 Steve

what is it worth to you? ;P

Well the new job pays more so, yes...

391 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:34:35pm

re: #384 VegasRick

Don't stop belivin?

true that

392 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:34:45pm

re: #358 theheat

A lot of people homeschool to get a better education for their kids than what's available. We did.

In fact, homeschoolers are vastly over-represented among the regional science fair winners here. I've been judging it for fifteen years and some of these parents are just highly motivated to educate their kids. There's also a pretty good network here that offers all kinds of sports, etc. so they aren't stuck at home.

Many of these parents are religious- and creationists- but by no means all, or even a majority, and I live in a pretty religious part of the country.

393 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:34:48pm

No one's been deleted on this thread?
Wow!

394 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:34:54pm

re: #347 xtraBilly

395 wolfie  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:35:04pm

re: #28 Maine's Michael

Krauthammer is drawing upon Jewish teachings in this regard.

God lives above the natural world, and the glory of God is seen in the complexity/beauty/elegance/ugliness/impo derability (totality) of his creations. Those creations include systems such as physics, evolution, chemistry etc.

There is no conflict. Period.

I'm not picking on you personally, MM, but the statement that "there is no conflict," which I read so often on these threads, is a theological proposition. I happen to agree with it, but I am not the Imperial Arbiter of Christian orthodoxy.

Roman Catholics (along w/ the Orthodox) base their doctrine on Apostolic authority, the catholic (universal) tradition, Scripture, and reason. But there are Protestant denominations which, partly in revolt against the perceived rationalism of the medieval Catholic Church, base their teaching solely on Scripture, and on the "literal-historical" interpretation at that. For them, there is indeed a conflict.

That difficulty will not be solved by denying it.
It certainly won't be solved by telling them that the naughty Papists have a few things right after all.
It won't be solved by telling them they can always chuck the Bible out the window and become Episcopalians of the What-Me-Worry Synod.
These Protestants are going to have to figure it out on their own, with "fear and trembling," I should say.

It is my opinion that the Disco Institute people, as a whole, are exploiting the situation for their own glory and gain. They are offering the literalists snake oil, and some are foolish enough to buy it. It's not a pretty picture.

396 tgibson1962  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:35:13pm

re: #383 Sharmuta

Well- I did say it was just my opinion.

No, I wasn't disagreeing or correcting, just adding a little bit.

397 jaunte  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:35:28pm

re: #380 ladycatnip

This is OT, but you might enjoy reading this piece, which does a good job of revealing some of the problems with the Kyoto accords:

"Kiwis believed joining the Kyoto Protocol - as Australia did earlier this year - would lead to carbon earnings of $500 million. Instead, the poor little place (which only generates 0.2 per cent of the world's human-caused CO2) faces a Kyoto bill of around $1 billion.

The really cool part is that - under the Byzantine Kyoto protocol - most of the $1 billion will go to Russia, which generates about 6 per cent of CO2 (more than Japan and India).

So a clean, non-polluting small country has to pay a gigantic smogtropolis. Makes sense."


[Link: www.news.com.au...]

398 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:35:37pm

re: #178 Kosh's Shadow

And Psalm 90: "A thousand years are like a day in Thy sight, like a watch that passes in the night." So who says it has to be 6 24-hour periods, as we know them?

Buuuut... even allowing that the "days" in the first chapter of Genesis were actually "ages" of indeterminate length, the sequencing is still wrong as wrong can be:

Day 1: God creates light, thus illuminating the already existing ocean, and also separates the day from the night.

Day 2: God creates the sky.

Day 3: God separates dry land from the oceans and also creates plants.

Day 4: God creates the Sun and the Moon and the stars.

Day 5: God creates aquatic animals and birds.

Day 6: God creates land-dwelling, non-flying animals and also human beings.

So -- plant life appeared at roughly the same time that the continents were formed, and both are older than the Sun, Moon, and stars; flying birds came along before land-dwelling animals, but at about the same time as oceanic life; humans are roughly contemporaneous with all the other animals inhabiting dry land.

I'm not trying to make fun of the Bible, here, because you can certainly read the first chapter of Genesis as being a divinely-inspired, highly non-literal way of hinting at the gradual evolutionary development of life on Earth, revealed to people who weren't ready for the scientific details.

I'm just saying, though, that it seems a complete waste of time trying to argue that yom COULD HAVE meant millions of years rather than a 24-hour day -- because even granting that point, we're still left with the awkward fact that according to Genesis, fruit trees were around before there was a Sun.

399 cliffster  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:35:44pm

re: #387 itellu3times

I do not believe that anyone says homo sapiens evolved from neanderthals.

No, they coexisted. Humans won. Some of them are still around though, evidenced by Al Gore.

400 BBev  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:36:00pm

I don’t get it, why is this even being discussed I don’t mean here on LGF but t all. I grew up in the 70's (High school) and this was never a problem science was science and that was that. Why would we want our schools as bad as they may be to revert to something out of the middle ages?

401 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:36:11pm

re: #354 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Tom Berenger, playing the role of Longstreet in "Gettysburg"

I believe it was the actor protraying General Pickett.

402 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:36:19pm

re: #388 Sabnen

Some breeds of dog are not as genetically vigorous as they used to be and they have massive health problems.

We know where this will end.

403 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:37:14pm

re: #387 itellu3times

I do not believe that anyone says homo sapiens evolved from neanderthals.

There have been a few who went the other way.

404 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:37:35pm

Serious question, & I may offend Christians & Jews at the same time , altough I have no wish to.
The God of the Old Testement & as I understand the Torah, commanded Abraham to slay his own son in order to prove his obedience to God. Abraham hose to obey & at the last minute God reprieved the boy. Is that about right?
My question is, what kind of a loving god , would play gotcha like that?
I ask this in all seriousness.

405 Arbalest  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:37:56pm

#191 Racer X

Thanks.


#190 itellu3times

Some people see it as challenging the idea that we really are who we are, . . .”

Thanks. Usually, I hear some old dude pound on Scripture, acting like he wants a slice of me, yet he can never point to a NT passage that is undermined by Evolution.

The various proponents of ID always seem to be hiding something, and their explanations for observable objects never work right (unless they use a generally-accepted scientific explanation). They usually seem to retreat to Scripture quickly, bit never point to specific passages . . .


#316 Sharmuta

I understand your point. But it strikes me that the events and Message of the New Testament are still necessary, and not affected by the Theory of Evolution, whether Genesis is to be taken literally or not.

406 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:38:05pm

OT

BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Rather Calls Obama 'Osama Bin Laden,' Will Media Notice?

RATHER: ...with Jesse Jackson, and I realize this is not popular to say with a lot of people, but I have a respect for Jesse Jackson. That he was an important figure in paving the way for an Osama bin Laden to appear.
407 ibmkeyboard  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:38:07pm

re: #393 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No one's been deleted on this thread?
Wow!

Charles is changing from a lizard into a butterfly.
heh.

//dodges banning stick under table

408 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:38:12pm

re: #388 Sabnen

But then, if they can't reproduce, those negative health problems/traits are discarded.

Unless silly humans intervene, as in the case of Pugs. I've read that they are all bred by artificial insemination and born by Caesarian.

409 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:38:39pm

re: #386 faraway

The latest genetic studies show that we originated from a small band of humans in Africa. See Human Genome Project...

Yes, and that small band of humans evolved from a line of primate creatures. (Actually, the "small band of 10,000 protohumans" idea is just one hypothesis and it has not been proven.)

Is there evidence of a "common ancestor"? Do you have a link for pics of the bones of this thing?

There's nothing secret about any of this information. You can find it yourself if you're interested enough to look. Yes, there are lots of fossil examples of human ancestors.

410 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:38:41pm

re: #392 angst

A lot of people homeschool to get a better education for their kids than what's available. We did.

In fact, homeschoolers are vastly over-represented among the regional science fair winners here. I've been judging it for fifteen years and some of these parents are just highly motivated to educate their kids. There's also a pretty good network here that offers all kinds of sports, etc. so they aren't stuck at home.

Many of these parents are religious- and creationists- but by no means all, or even a majority, and I live in a pretty religious part of the country.

I think you may be an exception to the rule

411 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:38:46pm

re: #393 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No one's been deleted on this thread?
Wow!

Go for it...
Tell Charles what he should post....

I double dog dare you!
/ ;-P

412 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:38:55pm

re: #390 BBev


Enjoy your new job. I will expect great thing from you.

I quit a very well paying job once to go back to school. everybody that I worked with except one said that I was being stupid. The pne person congratulated be on being willing to take a leap of faith and to seek out my dreams. I have never forgot this man.

413 tgibson1962  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:39:10pm

re: #401 grumpy old codger

I believe it was the actor protraying General Pickett.

Later the same actor played Thomas Jackson in "Gods & Generals."

Obscure movie quotes for $400, Alex...

414 Wendya  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:39:16pm

re: #386 faraway

Is there evidence of a "common ancestor"? Do you have a link for pics of the bones of this thing?

What was this "common ancestor"? More man or more monkey? (maybe lizard?)


Do you understand what the word "Genome" means?

415 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:39:21pm

re: #400 BBev

I don’t get it, why is this even being discussed I don’t mean here on LGF but t all. I grew up in the 70's (High school) and this was never a problem science was science and that was that. Why would we want our schools as bad as they may be to revert to something out of the middle ages?

Because the Discovery Institute and its ilk are aligned with Muslims to shove ID back into the public school system.

416 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:39:45pm

re: #395 wolfie

VERY well put!

417 Racer X  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:39:50pm

re: #387 itellu3times

I do not believe that anyone says homo sapiens evolved from neanderthals.

You are correct - my error. It was a separate branch of the tree.

418 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:39:50pm

re: #403 pre-Boomer Marine brat

There have been a few who went the other way.

Well, the question whether sapiens and neanderthal interbred, is still very open. There seems little evidence for it.

But I knew a guy a few years ago, a "big boned" Irish guy, nice guy, smart and all, but every time I looked at him, I knew the answer was yes, there are neanderthal genes still running loose!

419 Pshawalaw  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:39:57pm

re: #389 Salamantis

But under the turtle on the bottom is usually the top of a post.

Ah, a post turtle reference, gotta love that.

420 freetoken  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:40:29pm

re: #188 jcm


If God created the earth and universe 6000 years ago, but put in place all the physical indicators of great age IT WOULD BE A LIE.

Indeed. What I find so striking is that the YEC are trying to convince me that the God of the Bible is a deceiver, that he intentionally planted all those photos from stars far away to make them look like the light took millions of years to get here.... or that that layers of hundreds of feet of metamorphic rock really aren't the result of squeezing and heating of sedimentary rock, even though they contain distorted fossils....

421 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:40:30pm

re: #386 faraway

Is there evidence of a "common ancestor"? Do you have a link for pics of the bones of this thing?

What was this "common ancestor"? More man or more monkey? (maybe lizard?)

Pics, bones? bullshit, I wanna see a driver's license

422 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:40:37pm

re: #405 Arbalest

But it strikes me that the events and Message of the New Testament are still necessary, and not affected by the Theory of Evolution, whether Genesis is to be taken literally or not

Exactly. Evolution does not cause me to think that the one new commandment Christ gave us (to Love each other) is somehow null and void.

423 cliffster  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:40:45pm

re: #409 Charles

Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond is an excellent source of information for this kind of thing.

424 ibmkeyboard  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:41:09pm

re: #406 jcm

RATHER: ...with Jesse Jackson, and I realize this is not popular to say with a lot of people, but I have a respect for Jesse Jackson. That he was an important figure in paving the way for an Osama bin Laden to appear.

lol

false but accurate.

425 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:41:23pm

re: #409 Charles

There's nothing secret about any of this information. You can find it yourself if you're interested enough to look. Yes, there are lots of fossil examples of human ancestors.

Sheesh, Lucy is damn near a celebrity.
Don't tell me folks never heard of her!

426 DistantThunder  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:41:46pm

re: #406 jcm

OT

BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Rather Calls Obama 'Osama Bin Laden,' Will Media Notice?

Will THIS be the final nail in his career coffin? Inquiring minds......

427 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:42:47pm

re: #404 opnion

Serious question, & I may offend Christians & Jews at the same time , altough I have no wish to.
The God of the Old Testement & as I understand the Torah, commanded Abraham to slay his own son in order to prove his obedience to God. Abraham hose to obey & at the last minute God reprieved the boy. Is that about right?
My question is, what kind of a loving god , would play gotcha like that?
I ask this in all seriousness.


It is not "gotcha ". It is obedience. Not blind obedience. It is faith that God would and did provide. Abraham always did have a choice in which way to act.

428 Racer X  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:42:57pm

re: #406 jcm

OT

BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Rather Calls Obama 'Osama Bin Laden,' Will Media Notice?

LOL!

The man is senile.

429 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:42:58pm

re: #390 BBev

Well the new job pays more so, yes...

well I think you should do what you enjoy doing. This is often very hard for the rest of us. God bless and all the rest.

430 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:43:04pm

re: #401 grumpy old codger

I believe it was the actor protraying General Pickett.

Probably so. It was one of 'em in that campfire scene.

/unless I pull out the video ... laying awake at 2AM, staring at the ceiling.

OH, and BTW, you sure do know how to pick it

431 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:43:24pm

re: #388 Sabnen

Uhh... The Chows, Mastiffs, Basenjis, Huskys etc. have been here for eons (not sure how long an eon is exactly) and are still here "humping away". They are not going anywhere. They will not disappear through evolution.

432 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:43:24pm

re: #425 jcm

Sheesh, Lucy is damn near a celebrity.
Don't tell me folks never heard of her!

Damn, she's HOT!

433 Edouard  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:43:34pm

re: #293 faraway

Big Bang Theory
Doesnt that one involve 90% dark matter (which has never been proven). Not to mention, what happened before that? Where did the little blob come from?

/rolls eyes

Wait. Let me guess. You're another non-scientist.

Your red herrings "prove" that.

You're way off target about dark matter. It certainly exists because we can show its gravitational effects. Just because we can't completely explain what it is (yet) doesn't mean we can't observe what it does.

"Where did the little blob come from?" I might as well ask you where the Creator of your creationism "came from". Both are meaningless questions with unknowable answers. The value of the Big Bang theory lies in what it demonstrates and explains about the universe, which is a vast, vast amount.

434 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:43:37pm

re: #418 itellu3times

*grin*
precisely

435 Moonzoo  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:43:45pm

And let us also be clear.

Totally apart from creationist theory and intelligent design, is the separate issue whether speciation and "evolution" has sufficient evidence to be established. It does not. It is in the same category as creationist and intelligent design "science". In other words, it is not anymore science than they are science.

Certainly, this site has not presented a single shred of evidence in support of speciation. And no scientist has ever done so. That is typical. Interesting stuff, but nothing which amounts to proof, unless you assume speciation to be true.

What this site has presented, is what is always presented, a bravado assertion of one's intellectual superiority. "Dear Charles: I am superior like you, thank you. Not like those religious idiots, whoever they may be".

I think all religion, as a matter of truth, ranges in different degrees of absurdity and offensiveness. I put belief in speciation and "evolution," the transformation of the inorganic into the organic, among those religions.

I love LGF and I very much respect Charles.

But this evolution kick is nonsense.

436 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:44:18pm

re: #404 opnion

Serious question, & I may offend Christians & Jews at the same time , altough I have no wish to.
The God of the Old Testement & as I understand the Torah, commanded Abraham to slay his own son in order to prove his obedience to God. Abraham hose to obey & at the last minute God reprieved the boy. Is that about right?
My question is, what kind of a loving god , would play gotcha like that?
I ask this in all seriousness.

There is a whole literature on the question, but I defer to Bob Dylan:

God said to Abraham, kill me a son.
Abe said, God you must be puttin' me on.
God said, no.
Abe said, what.
God said, you do what you want to Abe, but
The next time you see me comin', you'd better run
(chord)
Abe said, where do you want this killin' done,
God said, out on Highway 61.

--
The bottom line seems to be, it's a God who you had better take seriously.

437 Wendya  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:44:23pm

re: #426 DistantThunder

Will THIS be the final nail in his career coffin? Inquiring minds......

Not a chance.

Everyone's going to ignore it but I did appreciate the double slam against both Obama and Jackson.

438 DistantThunder  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:44:29pm

re: #410 xtraBilly

I think you may be an exception to the rule

We homeschool, and the issues is teacher quality. Most of other homeschool families do so for the same reason, or to keep their children away from the toxic school culture - of here in New Jersey, it's the hyper-liberal version of sex ed, complete with descriptions of blow jobs and and other things. I'm talking jr. high.

439 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:44:33pm

re: #425 jcm

Lucie, you got some splaining to do!

440 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:44:46pm

re: #422 Sharmuta

Exactly. Evolution does not cause me to think that the one new commandment Christ gave us (to Love each other) is somehow null and void.

I'd also like to say that it precisely this message of Brotherly Love where the ID advocates have gone astray. Instead of focusing on the true message of Christianity, they instead attack a phantom enemy they have constructed in their own minds.

441 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:44:47pm

re: #389 Salamantis

There is no such thing as 'before the Big Bang', btw...

Huh? Is this logical?

442 BBev  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:45:09pm

re: #412 Steve

Thank you. If this does not work out I'm going back to school also. Medical field.

443 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:45:18pm

re: #427 Steve

It is not "gotcha ". It is obedience. Not blind obedience. It is faith that God would and did provide. Abraham always did have a choice in which way to act.


So a loving god said decide, "kill you son Or be disobedient to me?"
What a Hobsons Choice. The correct choice it seems to me is to protect your child & take your chances.

444 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:45:46pm

re: #435 Moonzoo

Totally apart from creationist theory and intelligent design, is the separate issue whether speciation and "evolution" has sufficient evidence to be established. It does not. It is in the same category as creationist and intelligent design "science". In other words, it is not anymore science than they are science.

These statements are completely false.

445 MandyManners  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:46:21pm

re: #425 jcm

Sheesh, Lucy is damn near a celebrity.
Don't tell me folks never heard of her!

Short for Lucille?

Gotta' go sling some hash. bbl

446 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:46:23pm

re: #60 DeafDog

That's Hahvahd.

They have a Dr. Seuss version of Law Review.

447 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:46:24pm

re: #411 jcm

Go for it...
Tell Charles what he should post....

I double dog dare you!
/ ;-P

Very well,
Charles you should put this "jcm" turtle up on a post

448 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:47:29pm

re: #436 itellu3times

There is a whole literature on the question, but I defer to Bob Dylan:

God said to Abraham, kill me a son.
Abe said, God you must be puttin' me on.
God said, no.
Abe said, what.
God said, you do what you want to Abe, but
The next time you see me comin', you'd better run
(chord)
Abe said, where do you want this killin' done,
God said, out on Highway 61.

--
The bottom line seems to be, it's a God who you had better take seriously.


That would be one mean god & i really don't believe that anything like that ever happened. I would make the God of the Desert a bully

449 BBev  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:47:35pm

re: #429 xtraBilly

well I think you should do what you enjoy doing. This is often very hard for the rest of us. God bless and all the rest.

I’m one of those EVIL real estate developers and I love it.

450 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:47:41pm

re: #447 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I saw that.

LOL

451 wolfie  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:48:35pm

re: #358 theheat

"The parents" told you?
Funny. I don't remember you asking me.

Oh. That was a sweeping generalization.

452 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:49:36pm

re: #435 Moonzoo

Certainly, this site has not presented a single shred of evidence in support of speciation. And no scientist has ever done so.


Bullshit. Speciation.

453 conservativeChick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:49:48pm

I wonder if Mr.Krauthammer hates being right all the time.

454 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:49:52pm

re: #443 opnion

So a loving god said decide, "kill you son Or be disobedient to me?"
What a Hobsons Choice. The correct choice it seems to me is to protect your child & take your chances.

Wrong! Try again!

455 ibmkeyboard  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:49:53pm

re: #435 Moonzoo

But this evolution kick is nonsense.


Animals evolve, see my re: #321 ibmkeyboard

[Link: crustacea.nhm.org...]

Page down to the samurai crab.

since 1100 it has developed a face on it back and the fishermen throw it back so as not to offend a ghost...

Evolution intelligence design for survival.

You dare challenge Carl!

.

456 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:49:54pm

re: #450 itellu3times

I saw that.

LOL

Let it never be said that I won't take a dare.

457 Pshawalaw  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:49:55pm

re: #445 MandyManners

Short for Lucille?

I somehow expected a picture of a famous guitar behind that link.

458 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:50:13pm

re: #448 opnion

That would be one mean god & i really don't believe that anything like that ever happened. I would make the God of the Desert a bully

You might note it is also a God who provides safety for belief. Don't try to summarize it briefly. Heck, that's practically another aspect of it, that faith perserves where reason fails.

459 SFGoth  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:50:16pm

re: #443 opnion

So a loving god said decide, "kill you son Or be disobedient to me?"
What a Hobsons Choice. The correct choice it seems to me is to protect your child & take your chances.

Unless Abe played it counterintuitively guessing/knowing that god wouldn't actually require him to go through with it. While god may not play dice, Abe could have. I'm just curious why there's no mention of other parts of the world in the Bible/Torah.

460 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:50:53pm

re: #410 xtraBilly

I think you may be an exception to the rule

No, I'm really not. People with gifted kids often try homeschooling- it's really ideal especially when the kid ends up depressed or acting out. Some people live where the public schools are terrible, and can't afford a good private school or there aren't any private schools to be had. Or the private schools are Catholic and they don't like that.

With the internet and homeschool support networks, it has become a whole lot easier to have quality homeschooling.

If anyone is interested, here's a government report on it. It's a little old, but I think still applicable except more kids are being homeschooled- about 2%.

Interestingly, homeschool parents have a higher education than average, which you should if you're going to be teaching your own kids.

461 Catttt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:51:06pm

re: #386 faraway

It is as plain as the noses on our ugly little primate faces (to borrow from Q).

462 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:51:13pm

re: #458 itellu3times

preserves

463 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:51:13pm

re: #442 BBev

Whatever you chose it will work out for you. Just be the best that you can be.

464 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:51:15pm

re: #347 xtraBilly

a movie moment - who said (IMOW)
There are some who say Man is derived from an ape. There are some who will tell you that I'm derived from and ape. But, tell me , who will say that Robert E. lee is derived from an ape?

i'm really disappointed. the correct answer was General George Pickett , portrayed by Steven Lang. I guess MarineBrat deserves a shout out for at least getting the right movie. I don't know why the rest of you are discussing God's design.

465 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:51:39pm

re: #454 Steve

Wrong! Try again!


Uh uh , I'm right. I would advise anybody who thinks that some god is telling him anything like that, get help immediately.

466 theparson  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:51:51pm

re: #203 HoosierHoops

You know, I have been and still am a BIG defender of Charles right to post what he wants on his blog. I always find his posts and responses to be informative and respectful of the debate and even if he wasn't I would support his right to do what he wants. I think LGF is a great place to exchange ideas and debate.
While it's true that there are some knot heads who call themselves creationists who get just plain goofy with their arguments, are offensive and irritating. And, usually I will let them know I think so.
Having said all of that, I want to express my displeasure with HoosierHoops and his/her need to denegrate those of us who do put great stock in the Bible. You can continue to do it and I will continue to enjoy LGF but, I just felt like speaking my mind on this.

467 BBev  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:52:04pm

I think this is just about right Evolution of man

468 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:52:18pm

re: #464 xtraBilly

i'm really disappointed. the correct answer was General George Pickett , portrayed by Steven Lang. I guess MarineBrat deserves a shout out for at least getting the right movie. I don't know why the rest of you are discussing God's design.

and the scene

/shamelessly tooting own horn

469 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:52:54pm

re: #459 SFGoth

Unless Abe played it counterintuitively guessing/knowing that god wouldn't actually require him to go through with it. While god may not play dice, Abe could have. I'm just curious why there's no mention of other parts of the world in the Bible/Torah.

Look, I don't want to offend anyone, but what the hell. The story is perpostrous!

470 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:52:57pm

re: #447 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Very well,
Charles you should put this "jcm" turtle up on a post

Ohh, gonna' play rough huh?

471 Moonzoo  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:52:59pm

re: #444 Charles

Pardon? Every statement? Your response is not understandable.

472 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:53:08pm

re: #441 faraway

Huh? Is this logical?

There's a lot about physics that isn't logical- that's what makes it so damned fun.

473 Catttt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:53:18pm

re: #428 Racer X

LOL!

The man is senile.

My b key was sticking last week. I typed oama and got "Did you mean Osama? This week, I tried it on purpose and got "Did you mean Obama?"

474 freetoken  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:53:30pm

re: #368 Charles

Unfortunately, there are politics on both sides of this issue, and nothing can be taken at face value -- especially not anything the media says.

I believe in accuracy in reporting... indeed what first drew my attention to LGF was during the Rather-gate scandal.

Accurate reporting in science can be very difficult as the subject matter can be complex or downright opaque to the lay reader, and especially because there are often running dialogues occurring among scientists and the outsider peers in at just one slice in time, thus missing the bigger picture.

The APS felt it important to put on its front page the reaffirmation of its position, obviously to dispel any misreporting... but that didn't stop Drudge from incorrectly asserting that the 50,000 member body was behind Monckton.

475 Pshawalaw  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:53:39pm

re: #459 SFGoth

Unless Abe played it counterintuitively guessing/knowing

Rob Reiner's version then?

476 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:54:17pm

re: #471 Moonzoo

Pardon? Every statement? Your response is not understandable.

Let's see if I can clarify it: your statements (i.e. the sentences I quoted) that there is no evidence for speciation are completely false.

477 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:54:46pm

re: #464 xtraBilly

To be fair (and your post probably crossed his)

re: #450 itellu3times

He got it.

478 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:55:10pm

re: #443 opnion

So a loving god said decide, "kill you son Or be disobedient to me?"
What a Hobsons Choice. The correct choice it seems to me is to protect your child & take your chances.


I will try and help you along with this. Start reading the whole account of Abraham and all the rest that goes along with it. I prefer a NIV (New International Version) of the Bible but you are free to choose what you like.

479 kalvinb  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:55:21pm

Slow news day in the middle east apparently.

Evolution makes Evolution the enemy of God.

One side wants the other entirely out of the classroom. The other wants equal air time.

If all that was in the science classroom was the idea that things change, there wouldn't be a problem. But with Evolution comes the notion that God isn't needed for anything except (possibly, but very unlikely because the supernatural is stupid and childish) that initial spark of life that makes inorganic material organic.

If Evolution didn't pretend to know where it all began, it wouldn't be a religion and would belong in the classroom.

"that it be empirically disprovable"

How do you plan on disproving that all life came from a single source?

You say it's "disprovable" because in theory if you were to start with a single cell in a few million years it in theory will become a complex creature with a whole slew of other creatures made in the process.

Well then by that definition, God is disprovable because in some amount of time possibly long after your dead he in theory will come back to destroy the earth.

So by your definition of "disprovable" both are equally scientific since both are equally disprovable.

If my God doesn't come back before your single cell creature becomes a complex creature with trillions of cells and countless interworking processes then I guess your theory will be proven correct.

480 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:55:49pm

re: #464 xtraBilly

i'm really disappointed. the correct answer was General George Pickett , portrayed by Steven Lang. I guess MarineBrat deserves a shout out for at least getting the right movie. I don't know why the rest of you are discussing God's design.

You're right! That is a great film. We just went "back east" and I made the kids watch Gettysburg before we went to Gettysburg. Then the little son-of-a-guns made me walk to the top of Little Round Top.

481 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:55:58pm

re: #425 jcm

Sheesh, Lucy is damn near a celebrity.
Don't tell me folks never heard of her!

Institute of Human Origins


How do we know she was a hominid?

The term hominid refers to a member of the zoological family Hominidae. Hominidae encompasses all species originating after the human/African ape ancestral split


Try again.

482 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:56:00pm

Here comes the most relentless creationist of the bunch to dump some more nonsense.

483 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:56:12pm

re: #477 pre-Boomer Marine brat

To be fair (and your post probably crossed his)

re: #450 itellu3times

He got it.

Did he get it, in the end?

484 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:56:25pm

re: #465 opnion

Uh uh , I'm right. I would advise anybody who thinks that some god is telling him anything like that, get help immediately.

No you are not! Try again!

485 vapig  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:56:36pm

re: #387 itellu3times

I do not believe that anyone says homo sapiens evolved from neanderthals.

I just saw a History Channel show that stated that homo sap came from Cro Magnon and that the Neanderthal was a separate species.

486 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:56:50pm

re: #460 angst

No, I'm really not. People with gifted kids often try homeschooling- it's really ideal especially when the kid ends up depressed or acting out. Some people live where the public schools are terrible, and can't afford a good private school or there aren't any private schools to be had. Or the private schools are Catholic and they don't like that.

With the internet and homeschool support networks, it has become a whole lot easier to have quality homeschooling.

If anyone is interested, here's a government report on it. It's a little old, but I think still applicable except more kids are being homeschooled- about 2%.

Interestingly, homeschool parents have a higher education than average, which you should if you're going to be teaching your own kids.

Well I do thinh you are an exception because you have to make certain sacrifices to educate children on your own.

487 Idaho  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:56:51pm

Kudos to Krauthammer. The only thing as silly as creationists wanting ID taught as science is scientists who claim that evolution disproves the existence of God.

What it does is disprove any overly literal interpretation of the Old Testament. Oh, well.

BTW, the point of the Abraham story, if you think about it, is not that God told Abraham to kill his son, but that He told Abraham NOT to kill his son. The Jews at the time the oldest parts of the OT were written lived in a world where human sacrifice was not unknown. The Jews did not practice it. The Abraham/Isaac story explains why.

488 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:57:06pm

re: #478 Steve

I will try and help you along with this. Start reading the whole account of Abraham and all the rest that goes along with it. I prefer a NIV (New International Version) of the Bible but you are free to choose what you like.

I appreciate the help, really . But no god ever said , kill your son for me.

489 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:57:25pm
490 melinwy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:57:36pm

re: #25 cliffster
ditto to that

491 jaunte  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:58:31pm

re: #479 kalvinb

"But with Evolution comes the notion that God isn't needed for anything..."

False, and wrong-headed.

492 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:58:54pm

Oh SHIT, there he is!

I'm going to wash a few dishes and get something (else) to eat into the microwave. This one's buttocks have spittle all over them. Very unappetizing.

493 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:59:31pm

re: #137 VegasRick

You're on!

Is it really free, or do we have to gamble?

494 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:59:32pm

re: #435 Moonzoo
WTF? Evolution is not science? Then what is it? It isn't faith.

495 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 3:59:45pm

re: #488 opnion

I appreciate the help, really . But no god ever said , kill your son for me.

He won't. You are not Abraham!

496 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:00:20pm
497 SFGoth  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:00:35pm

re: #469 opnion

Look, I don't want to offend anyone, but what the hell. The story is perpostrous!

You offended me! It's preposterous.

498 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:00:59pm

re: #493 debutaunt

Is it really free, or do we have to gamble?

I always tell people that those free room nights we give you can get a little expensive!

499 ibmkeyboard  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:01:02pm

The fucking crabs look around and notice that the ones that have faces don't get eaten.

The no face crab says:
screw this,
I need some make up.

Survival of the crab faces..

/make a good evolution movie.

500 tgibson1962  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:01:12pm

re: #488 opnion

I appreciate the help, really . But no god ever said , kill your son for me.

Actually, if you read the passage God stopped Abraham. The funny thing is, when you get to the New Testament, God did kill His Son for me.

501 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:01:16pm

re: #486 xtraBilly

Well I do thinh you are an exception because you have to make certain sacrifices to educate children on your own.

Well, I would like to say I'm a saint, but my early retirement intersected with the pressing needs of one of our kids!

It does require one stay at home parent, and I'm not sure how they do it, either. Households that homeschool tend to have the same income as those that don't, meaning one of the parents has a good job. That has been my observation. It's a luxury.

502 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:01:22pm

re: #491 jaunte

"But with Evolution comes the notion that God isn't needed for anything..."

False, and wrong-headed.

He certainly wishes that it were true. He's single-mindedly in the pursuit of his own image of G*d.

503 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:01:25pm

re: #496 buzzsawmonkey

I want my next car to be an eVolvo.

Shhhsh. you could market that.

504 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:01:32pm

Evidence of speciation:

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

505 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:01:54pm

re: #466 theparson

You know, I have been and still am a BIG defender of Charles right to post what he wants on his blog. I always find his posts and responses to be informative and respectful of the debate and even if he wasn't I would support his right to do what he wants. I think LGF is a great place to exchange ideas and debate.
While it's true that there are some knot heads who call themselves creationists who get just plain goofy with their arguments, are offensive and irritating. And, usually I will let them know I think so.
Having said all of that, I want to express my displeasure with HoosierHoops and his/her need to denegrate those of us who do put great stock in the Bible. You can continue to do it and I will continue to enjoy LGF but, I just felt like speaking my mind on this.

I'm with you on this.

Please note to anyone who may think this is advocating a "speech code". No one is advocating that a person's beliefs, thoughts, ideas, etc., should be censored or left unexpressed. It would just be nice if those beliefs, thoughts, ideas were expressed in less disrespectful terms.

506 vapig  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:02:14pm

re: #500 tgibson1962

Actually, if you read the passage God stopped Abraham. The funny thing is, when you get to the New Testament, God did kill His Son for me.

Touche!

507 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:03:34pm

re: #464 xtraBilly
Hey, I got it right!

508 Moonzoo  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:03:42pm

re: #452 Killgore Trout

Well, I went through the tedious process of reading your cite. Could you go through the same process on the site and point out a single instance where speciation is supported by evidence? And not by the assumptioon that speciation is true? Maybe I missed the facts; the bald assertions were pretty overwhelming.

As a matter of fact, your cite is loaded down with weasel language, which, in my book, is an implicit admission that you cannot prove what you are asserting.

509 Racer X  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:03:59pm

re: #496 buzzsawmonkey

I want my next car to be an eVolvo.

eVolvo™

When you want to have your offspring survive a car crash.

510 Da_Beerfreak  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:04:29pm

re: #300 grumpy old codger

Was God on a bender or a really big high when he did the platypus?

Neither.
Just some leftover parts.
// {;-)™

511 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:04:30pm

re: #508 Moonzoo

Well, I went through the tedious process of reading your cite. Could you go through the same process on the site and point out a single instance where speciation is supported by evidence? And not by the assumptioon that speciation is true? Maybe I missed the facts; the bald assertions were pretty overwhelming.

As a matter of fact, your cite is loaded down with weasel language, which, in my book, is an implicit admission that you cannot prove what you are asserting.

On the other hand, you've posted nothing but a bare assertion.

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

512 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:04:40pm

re: #466 theparson

You know, I have been and still am a BIG defender of Charles right to post what he wants on his blog. I always find his posts and responses to be informative and respectful of the debate and even if he wasn't I would support his right to do what he wants. I think LGF is a great place to exchange ideas and debate.
While it's true that there are some knot heads who call themselves creationists who get just plain goofy with their arguments, are offensive and irritating. And, usually I will let them know I think so.
Having said all of that, I want to express my displeasure with HoosierHoops and his/her need to denegrate those of us who do put great stock in the Bible. You can continue to do it and I will continue to enjoy LGF but, I just felt like speaking my mind on this.


/sorry parson I am truely sorry to those that felt i denegrated them and thier belief system..and as Mandy stated i was over the top..I will not offer an excuse for my posting..please accept my apology..I meant no offense..I just don't believe all the stories are literal in the bible..
// again..I am sorry for taking your faith to task...

513 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:05:09pm

re: #489 buzzsawmonkey

A loving G-d who wanted to demonstrate by the most direct means that the then-common practice of child sacrifice was NOT sanctioned.


Come on, the lesson was not to stop child sacrafice. The lesson was obedience to god.

514 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:05:35pm
515 USBeast  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:05:52pm

I think the problem some people have with Evolution is that it contradicts Genesis. If there was no Adam and Eve there was no "Original Sin". No Original Sin means there was no reason for a Redeemer. No reason for a Redeemer means that Jesus was just a very wise man who got crosswise (no pun intended) with the wrong people.

What amazes me is how IDers and Creationists insist on limiting Almighty God. Any entity capable of creating this universe must possess an intellect so vast that an amoeba has a better chance of learning the calculus than I have of fathoming the mind of such a God.

Science, at its best, is humble and is willing to admit its ignorance even if it regards that ignorance as a challenge. Religion insists its ignorance is Divinely mandated and regards any challenge to it as a threat.

I asked God about it. He said: "Stick with Science."

516 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:06:11pm
517 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:06:14pm

One creationist tactic I've observed over and over is to post a bare assertion with no evidence, then demand that everyone scurry around and prove that it isn't true.

518 keithgabryelski  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:06:29pm

re: #227 Salamantis

Half nekkid? Half measures! My full-moon bonfire-on-the-sand-dune circle-dancing is done completely and totally skyclad. Just like all the folks I am dancing with.


Hmmm? you must have a different manual than me, mine is label "rituals of the cockrach god, revision 2112".

It explicitly says you must keep your socks on during the moon-light prayer.

519 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:06:43pm

re: #495 Steve
Stan would and apparently does so every day in the moslem world.

520 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:06:48pm

re: #507 grumpy old codger

Hey, I got it right!

you are a grumpy old codger. check above and you'lll find no no text to your response. No partial answers are going to be accepted by me or by any serious arbiter of this ontological question. Yikes

521 freetoken  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:06:49pm

There is a quality (free) book online that those who are home schooling teenagers or parents who wish to supplement their children's education on the subject of Evolution, printed this year by the National Acadamies (the collection of professional scientific bodies which are chartered to advise the President, created by Lincoln.)

It is also a good read for anybody else on the matter, too.

It is Science, Evolution, and Creationism
You can pay money to have a paper copy shipped to you, or you can download it (PDF) for free simply by signing in!

It attempts to not only explain evolution (along with a dose of cosmology), but it also tackles why creationism and Intelligent Design are not science. However, the book does not intend to belittle religious people and makes an effort to establish that one can hold the results of science and a belief in God at the same time.

A resource for anyone who needs it.

522 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:06:50pm

re: #512 HoosierHoops

Thank you for that!

523 kalvinb  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:06:50pm

"False, and wrong-headed."

Let's go through it.

The Big Bang: God was not needed to create the universe. It just happened to show up. Some billions of years later we have organized solar systems and a place called the Milky Way.

Origin of Life: Just by chance the building blocks of life end up on a planet. They're dead though because life doesn't come from non-life. God, after resting for billions of years, pops his sleepy head up and grants that little bundle of building blocks a breath of life. God goes back to sleep for billions of years.

Origin of Species: God wakes up and realizes that there's rediculous variety of life on the earth and that there's some human like thing id running around. He gives it Morality and decides to be friends with it.

Man ignores God and God goes back to sleep.

So where does God fit in again?

According to "science" he's just some thing that fills in the gaps until we figure out how to get rid of Him.

524 ibmkeyboard  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:07:15pm

like talking to a brick wall,

screw it,

I want a Toyota virus.

525 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:08:36pm

re: #433 Edouard

/rolls eyes
Wait. Let me guess. You're another non-scientist.


I forgot I was on LittleGreenScienceGeeks.


"Where did the little blob come from?" I might as well ask you where the Creator of your creationism "came from". Both are meaningless questions with unknowable answers.

Meaningless? Not very scientific of you.

526 ornery elephant  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:08:42pm

re: #404 opnion

Serious question, & I may offend Christians & Jews at the same time , altough I have no wish to.
The God of the Old Testement & as I understand the Torah, commanded Abraham to slay his own son in order to prove his obedience to God. Abraham hose to obey & at the last minute God reprieved the boy. Is that about right?
My question is, what kind of a loving god , would play gotcha like that?
I ask this in all seriousness.

A fair question - I think the holds the answer:

But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here am I." He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him;for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me"
- Genesis 22:11-12

I think that has your answer - G_d demanded that Abraham fear Him. As for what a "loving" god would do or should do....I guess I can only point out that G_d allowed HIS only Son to die and that proved just how much the Father loves his children.

527 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:09:05pm

re: #478 Steve

I will try and help you along with this. Start reading the whole account of Abraham and all the rest that goes along with it. I prefer a NIV (New International Version) of the Bible but you are free to choose what you like.

Steve, I forgot nsomething. I am sure you mean "help me along" in only the best way. Right.
Referral to bible is not very helpful. A bible is not a history book.
It is probative of nothing & actually I have read the biblical account.

528 jaunte  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:09:10pm

re: #523 kalvinb

You're making assertions again. Start proving that accepting the theory of evolution as a reliable scientific predictor means that "God is asleep."
Propose an experiment.

529 Sabnen  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:09:16pm

re: #431 faraway

Uhh... The Chows, Mastiffs, Basenjis, Huskys etc. have been here for eons (not sure how long an eon is exactly) and are still here "humping away". They are not going anywhere. They will not disappear through evolution.

BINGO! The favorable traits persist! Because at this point man has intervened in the natural evolutionary process. You never hear about the Swohc or Sffitsam or Sijnesab or Syksuh because they had unfavorable traits and they died out! Believe it or not man has been around for eons AND breeding dogs!

Now let's add this . . . all dogs are descended from wolves. This is kinda of like Charles' "Common Ancestor" for Man, but it's for dogs.

Okay, somewhere eons AND eons ago (there were no domesticated dogs) some starving wolf or some strangely mutated wolf that wanted to hang around those funny two-legged creatures with lots of food was sustained by early man, bred and perpetuated.

The friendly pups of the litter were kept around and the unfriendly ones (I'm speculating) were tossed into the toilet . . . wait, no toilets then . . . ummm . . . they were eaten. Sheesh! But the friendly, useful ones were kept around and bred for different functions, Mastiffs for fighting, Huskys for transportation etc . .

Unfortunately, I must go and make dinner for the kids. I hope you can see the Theory of Evolution writ small in the breeding of dogs. It's a scalable Theory so you can apply it across other species, including Man!

530 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:09:44pm

re: #508 Moonzoo

Could you go through the same process on the site and point out a single instance where speciation is supported by evidence?


Heh, the article cites many examples of observed speciation. Charles' article has many more. Good luck.

531 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:11:11pm

re: #180 Catttt

Thank you for the ego boost. I think I'll celebrate. :D But not as fun as when I beat my husband and all his brothers at Trivial Pursuit - that was truly sweet.

Did you see how low the averages are (shades of Jay Leno's person on the street questions)? I'm betting most lizardoids are way up there on this test.

91st percentile!

532 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:11:35pm

re: #508 Moonzoo

your cite is loaded down with weasel language


You're a hoot. Wait till you read the "weasel language" in Charles' link. It's much more weasely.

533 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:11:36pm

re: #300 grumpy old codger

Was God on a bender or a really big high when he did the platypus?

LOL Your guess is as good as mine.

I did a term paper on the Origin of Species when I was kid, either 9th or 10th grade (1976 or 77). I need to try to find it.

534 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:11:36pm

re: #519 grumpy old codger

Stan would and apparently does so every day in the moslem world.

The muslim god is not 'The God'. Never has been and never will be. It is just another cult posing as a religion.

535 JHW  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:11:45pm

re: #521 freetoken

Here's another in the same mold, rated very highly. I've posted the link a couple of times, but will repeat, it's an excellent resource.
Understanding Evolution, Univ. Calif. a virtual mini-course for all ages.

536 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:11:48pm

re: #499 ibmkeyboard

The fucking crabs look around and notice that the ones that have faces don't get eaten.

The no face crab says:
screw this,
I need some make up.

Survival of the crab faces..

/make a good evolution movie.


That reminds me of how I was working on some landscaping the past week. Close to the ground with some really nasty black flies attacking my hind quarters. I kept an old kitchen towel nearby to swat the bastids. I realized that I wanted a tail to swish around, at least for the duration of the project. After a while I began to wonder if there is some element other than natural selection at work. Almost some change effected more by desire or need?
I don't believe that Science yet understands all of the factors involved in species evolving. But whatever side of the fence you sit on, it's a truly amazing system.

537 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:12:12pm

re: #520 xtraBilly

point of order point of order! Recount, recount! see 401. where's Trabek? Which judge should i bribe. Charles, I appeal to Caesar!

538 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:12:19pm
539 vapig  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:13:47pm

re: #529 Sabnen

BINGO! The favorable traits persist! Because at this point man has intervened in the natural evolutionary process. You never hear about the Swohc or Sffitsam or Sijnesab or Syksuh because they had unfavorable traits and they died out! Believe it or not man has been around for eons AND breeding dogs!

Now let's add this . . . all dogs are descended from wolves. This is kinda of like Charles' "Common Ancestor" for Man, but it's for dogs.

Okay, somewhere eons AND eons ago (there were no domesticated dogs) some starving wolf or some strangely mutated wolf that wanted to hang around those funny two-legged creatures with lots of food was sustained by early man, bred and perpetuated.

The friendly pups of the litter were kept around and the unfriendly ones (I'm speculating) were tossed into the toilet . . . wait, no toilets then . . . ummm . . . they were eaten. Sheesh! But the friendly, useful ones were kept around and bred for different functions, Mastiffs for fighting, Huskys for transportation etc . .

Unfortunately, I must go and make dinner for the kids. I hope you can see the Theory of Evolution writ small in the breeding of dogs. It's a scalable Theory so you can apply it across other species, including Man!

What I've never gotten my brain around it that Yorkies and Chihuahuas come from wolves. That just seems like some sort of insult to me.

540 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:13:57pm

re: #523 kalvinb
Evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang.
The Big Bang has proof in the background radiation present in ALL areas of the universe.

541 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:15:10pm

Is woman human?

542 ibmkeyboard  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:15:31pm

re: #536 EC Marm

After a while I began to wonder if there is some element other than natural selection at work. Almost some change effected more by desire or need?
I don't believe that Science yet understands all of the factors involved in species evolving. But whatever side of the fence you sit on, it's a truly amazing system.


I agree.

We do what we can to survive,

God gave animals the same pleasure.

sorry bout the bad words,
but it takes a hammer on some people.

Evolution.

543 kalvinb  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:15:34pm

"Propose an experiment."

I already did.

"science" is so arrogant it's convinced that God isn't needed for life to exist. So much so that countless "scientists" have died waiting for that one experiment to bring life from death to happen.

Hopefully they're right or God doesn't care that they spent their life certain He didn't exist and that the universe didn't need Him.

When Science can bring life from death without artificially causing it then I'll consider your version of events.

In the mean time, my experiment involves God coming back and destroying the world.

So if Science can find the natural process by which dead things come alive before God destroys the world then your beliefs are correct.

Otherwise, if God can put life into a single cell and create a huge universe why should I doubt he put life into complex creatures?

544 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:15:52pm

re: #541 faraway

Is woman human?

That is THE stupidest comment I've read on ANY of these threads.

545 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:15:53pm

re: #358 theheat

How about the fact the parents themselves told me so? Does that work for you? I am speaking from what I know first-hand, not a chapter from the brownshirt handbook.

Case in point, once child came home one day saying the neighbor kids teased her when she told them dinosaur bones were planted by scientists to "go against the bible". Her parents told her this, of course, as was the mantra of the particular Fundie sect they belonged to.

That was the last day of public school for that girl. She and the rest of her siblings were homeschooled from that day forward. In fact, the church they attended recommended homeschooling to all its parents because so many things taught in public school are not congruent with their biblical interpretations, natural history being one subject in particular.

It's the same kind of narrow-minded paranoid isolationism as the FLDS practice i.e. child abuse. And, yes, anti-science (ID) does play a part of that.

Well....obviously one observation makes a statistically significant sample.
/

Since the home-schooled typically outperform publicly-schooled children by almost every measure, including science tests, I think you'd have a hard time arguing that your example is more than a statistical anomaly.

546 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:16:04pm

If the fittest survive, then how do you explain Obama?

547 Quintus_Arius  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:16:06pm

Theology and science do coexist. The Bible: theology, not science. Catholics do not take Genesis 'literally'. It is a theological presentation of creation. There is no theological presentation of 'intelligent design'. It is a fabricated term. It has no business being taught as science.

On the other hand, Catholics have no problem with the science of evolution. We just believe our God was the Prime Mover, not only of our humanity, but universal existence.

I concede that is leap of faith, but no one here can make a better claim on the truth. I just know there is only ONE truth. We don't get to define our own truth to suit ourselves for the current fad. Science may ultimately answer all the physical questions. But not all questions are physical.

I like to quote Benedict XVI:

How many winds of teaching we have known in these last decades, how many ideologies, how many ways of thinking...The little vessel of thought of many Christians has often been rocked by these waves -- hurled from one extreme to another: from Marxism to liberalism, to the point of libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism and so forth. New sects are born every day and we see what Saint Paul says in terms of human trickery and cunning that tends to lead to error (cf Eph 4:14). To have a clear faith, according to the Creed of the Church, is often labelled as fundamentalism. While relativism, i.e. letting oneself be "swept along by any wind of doctrine", seems to be the only up-to-date way to behave. A dictatorship of relativism is taking shape which recognizes nothing as definite and for the ultimate measure is simply one's own self and its desires.

548 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:16:07pm

re: #523 kalvinb

Let's cut to the chase and go back up-thread to your previous post.

But with Evolution comes the notion that God isn't needed for anything except (possibly, but very unlikely because the supernatural is stupid and childish) that initial spark of life that makes inorganic material organic.

I believe that evolution is a process which God, the creator, put into place.

You are deliberately urinating upon (admittedly, my choice of words, put very strongly) my personal beliefs. What, or who, gives you the right to come in here and do that?

549 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:16:07pm

re: #540 pingjockey

Evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang.


Which brings up another good point, the attack on science isn't just restricted to biology. They want to take out physics as well.

550 jaunte  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:17:02pm

re: #543 kalvinb

Arrogant is this: "my experiment involves God coming back and destroying the world." So you have a solution you're willing to impose on everyone else to stop this from happening, right?

551 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:17:03pm

re: #539 vapig

What I've never gotten my brain around it that Yorkies and Chihuahuas come from wolves. That just seems like some sort of insult to me.

That snarling Chihuahua nipping at my heels THINKS it's a wolf......

552 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:17:35pm

re: #543 kalvinb

Wow, you're nutty.

553 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:17:43pm

re: #541 faraway
Are you a nut?

554 Moonzoo  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:17:49pm

re: #530 Killgore Trout

Just as I thought. You cannot. That is because, on the site there is assertion and characterization. All based on the assumption of speciation. In logic, that is called begging the question. Every single (alleged scientific) article Charles has published on evolution that I have read, begs the question, except for the article on bacteria, which actually addressed the question legitimately, but ironically disproved evolution.

555 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:17:53pm

re: #544 Sharmuta

That is THE stupidest comment I've read on ANY of these threads.

Here, you can use my clue bat.

556 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:18:04pm

re: #532 Killgore Trout

You're a hoot. Wait till you read the "weasel language" in Charles' link. It's much more weasely.

I think "Moonzoo" says it all.

/admittedly ad hominem

557 mossley  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:18:09pm

re: #154 Charles

They're creationist talking points. They get dumped into almost every thread on this subject.


Oh, I know. I just don't understand why they stick to it here, of all places, when it's been demonstrated again and again that there are too many people here who recognize their BS for what it is. It really just makes them look silly.

On a philosophical tangent, I'm having a fun time imagining what their eventual meeting with God could be like:

IDer's: Yo, God! We did your work on earth!
God: How?
IDer's: (somewhat taken aback) Uh, we promoted ID to the masses.
God: You lied.
IDer's: But, it was for you.
God: Do you truly believe I wanted you to lie for Me?
IDer's: (foot shifting nervously) But, but we promoted your greatness on earth!
God: Really? If you think My greatness is good, then why did you lie?
IDer's: Uh?
God: If you truly believed in Me, then you would not need to resort to distortion and falsehoods. My greatness is self-evident to those who believe. It does not need embellishment, and is not served by the deliberate attempt to stifle knowledge. I gave you brains so that you could think for yourself, you know.
IDer's : (tiny voice) eeep
God : Now let's talk about your alignment with radical Islamic terrorists. Do you think I am like Allah or wanted to be associated with the most depraved proponents of his death cult?
IDer's : Oh, crap.

And before anyone deliberately twists what I said, I am not claiming to speak for God, or in any way think I can speak for him. I'm merely pointing out any campaign based on lies, half-truths and deliberate deception is the antithesis of what Christianity is supposed to be.

558 wolfie  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:18:34pm

re: #539 vapig

What I've never gotten my brain around it that Yorkies and Chihuahuas come from wolves. That just seems like some sort of insult to me.

I'm not all that insulted. After all , I cannot be held responsible for my descendents.

559 kalvinb  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:18:36pm

"The Big Bang has proof in the background radiation present in ALL areas of the universe."

Except for that problem of the Horizon.

Can you prove that if God created the universe there wouldn't be radiation?

I like how Science doesn't accept catastrophies and believes that all things happen now as they always have, but in order to "solve" the Horizon problem they have to give up the belief in that great constant C and imagine that for a short burst of time, matter could travel many many times the speed of light.

If God created the universe all at once then it makes sense that it's a relatively constant temperature.

The Big Bang is the only thing that has a problem with the observed phenomena.

560 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:18:43pm

re: #549 Killgore Trout

Which brings up another good point, the attack on science isn't just restricted to biology. They want to take out physics as well.

Yeah! How do those turtles stay balanced?

561 melinwy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:19:15pm

re: #543 kalvinb

"Propose an experiment."

"science" is so arrogant it's convinced that God isn't needed for life to exist. "

How did you come to this conclusion?

562 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:19:16pm

re: #544 Sharmuta

That is THE stupidest comment I've read on ANY of these threads.


I should have added:
/ running for cover from the female lizards

563 Edouard  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:19:34pm

re: #525 faraway

I'm only concurring Stephen Hawking, one of the world's most famous scientists, who has indeed called your very question "meaningless."

564 jaunte  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:19:36pm

re: #557 mossley

Mind if I quote you?
"If you truly believed in Me, then you would not need to resort to distortion and falsehoods. My greatness is self-evident to those who believe. It does not need embellishment, and is not served by the deliberate attempt to stifle knowledge. I gave you brains so that you could think for yourself, you know."

565 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:19:49pm

re: #541 faraway

Is woman human?

Huh?

566 kalvinb  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:19:53pm

"What, or who, gives you the right to come in here and do that?"

What gives you the right to come in here and piss on my beliefs?

567 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:20:38pm

Is it just my imagination or are the creationists getting wackier?

568 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:20:43pm

re: #527 opnion

Steve, I forgot nsomething. I am sure you mean "help me along" in only the best way. Right.
Referral to bible is not very helpful. A bible is not a history book.
It is probative of nothing & actually I have read the biblical account.

I always try to be helpful. What it comes down to, is, do you want to learn more or are you happy just being where you are. Your are free to choose.
Referral is helpful if you take the time to investigate. As it is with any subject.

"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must be first overcome."
Samuel Johnson

569 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:21:07pm

re: #557 mossley

Associated with Islamists......but.....against Obama.

570 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:21:23pm

re: #394 grumpy old codger

Grumpy Old -- Well this is like Jeopardy. You're 1st answer should count. However, since you were one of the few to respond I will give you my recognition and affidavy on qualifiing knowlege about ontology and grand design. ( In order to receive your reward you may wish to provide your e-mail address along with SS# or credit card #.

We appreciate your interist.

571 jaunte  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:21:25pm

re: #567 Killgore Trout

There seems to be a process of distillation going on.

572 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:21:41pm
573 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:21:51pm

re: #559 kalvinb
Ok, ya got me. What is the "Horizon" problem?

574 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:22:27pm

re: #571 jaunte

The new crop is "different".

575 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:23:04pm
576 jaunte  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:23:14pm

re: #574 Killgore Trout
Intense!

577 razorbacker  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:23:55pm

Wildly OT...Obama on Gitmo

In short, the procedural protections afforded the Guantanamo detainees under the statute before the Supreme Court in Boumediene [ACM — several of which I list in today's article] substantially exceed those accorded the Nuremberg defendants. Obama's unfavorable comparison of the legal treatment of the Guantanamo detainees with that of the Nuremberg defendants suggests either that he does not know what he's talking about, or that he feels free to take great liberties with the truth.

Those are not mutually exclusive positions.

578 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:24:13pm

re: #562 faraway

I should have added:
/ running for cover from the female lizards

You think so?
/

579 jaunte  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:24:28pm

Be back later...

580 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:24:40pm

re: #566 kalvinb

"What, or who, gives you the right to come in here and do that?"

What gives you the right to come in here and piss on my beliefs?

Oooooo! Now his agenda's out in the open!
Someone else says something contrary to what he believes.
He can't live with that, so he goes over and stomps them.

kalvinb, your kimono is WIDE open.

581 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:24:43pm
582 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:25:00pm

re: #565 VegasRick

Huh?


I don't know. I've got a lot of friends who refer to their ex-wives as blood-sucking vampire bats.

583 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:25:09pm

re: #567 Killgore Trout

Is it just my imagination or are the creationists getting wackier?

desperate

584 wolfie  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:25:25pm

re: #571 jaunte

There seems to be a process of distillation going on.

I'll take bourbon, please.

585 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:25:40pm

re: #571 jaunte

There seems to be a process of distillation going on.


Internal, 80 proof distillation would be my guess.

586 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:26:07pm

re: #570 xtraBilly

Grumpy Old -- Well this is like Jeopardy. You're 1st answer should count. However, since you were one of the few to respond I will give you my recognition and affidavy on qualifiing knowlege about ontology and grand design. ( In order to receive your reward you may wish to provide your e-mail address along with SS# or credit card #.

We appreciate your interist.

I'm so old my social security number is 2.

587 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:27:00pm

re: #586 grumpy old codger

I'm so old my social security number is 2.

Since this is an ID thread, who is No 1?

588 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:27:08pm

re: #581 WrathofG-d

Not even close. Some scholars try to rationalize it (like anything else) but evolution is not very well accepted in the Islamic world.

589 xtraBilly  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:27:24pm

re: #586 grumpy old codger

I'm so old my social security number is 2.

mmm ,foiled again

590 Moonzoo  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:27:45pm

re: #494 pingjockey

Speciation and the related ideas of "evolution" are in the same league as "scientific socialism" (Marxism, the "ultimate" explanation) and "scientific" Freudianism. They are interesting and fascinating. And they have elements of truth. But as a categorical explanation, they are baloney.

The truth is, we do not know. Perhaps we will never know.

"Evolution" is a religious belief. It is a belief based on the assumption of its truth.

Like other religions, its casts around for "evidence," and it comes up with stuff which sounds really good. The only difficulty is that it has no fact-based logic. And like other religions, any given "fact" is disputed by co-religionists, who regard the heterodox opinion as heresy.

God Bless Saint Stephen Jay Gould.

591 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:28:13pm

re: #586 grumpy old codger

I'm so old my social security number is 2.

LOL

592 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:28:31pm

re: #586 grumpy old codger

I'm so old my social security number is 2.

gawd that was funny...
did you know shoeless joe jackson?

593 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:28:50pm

re: #569 WrathofG-d

Associated with Islamists......but.....against Obama.

What a poser. It takes a real backbone to stand up to people who aren't going to vote for you anyway. /sarc.

Obama is a throwback- he's been tossed so far down the evolutionary ladder he's not even a vertebrate.

594 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:28:58pm
595 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:29:44pm

re: #587 faraway

Well, way back then, a lot of us were sitting around drinking and watching mandy pole dance. I ran out of money, had nothing else to do. went to the SS office and filled out the form. Methusalah, Noah and a few others were right behind me.

596 razorbacker  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:29:47pm

Ever stop to think after an event and try to reconcile your beliefs with your actions?

I lived in Paducah during the '90s when the New Madrid fault was acting up. One day we had a tremblor and the earth shook.

I looked up.

597 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:29:56pm

re: #592 HoosierHoops

gawd that was funny...
did you know shoeless joe jackson?

I heard he kept his bat in a vat of some kind of oil.

598 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:30:32pm

re: #588 Killgore Trout

You like this one better?

599 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:30:32pm

re: #590 Moonzoo
So the earth isn't 4+ billion years old, dinosaurs co-existed with man and then died out. Fossils were laid down by the Flood and everything was made at once.

600 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:30:41pm

re: #592 HoosierHoops

gawd that was funny...
did you know shoeless joe jackson?

I knew Joe before he needed shoes. Mother carried him around.

601 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:31:12pm

re: #587 faraway

Since this is an ID thread, who is No 1?

LOL.

We might disagree on evolution, but that's funny.

602 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:31:41pm

re: #595 grumpy old codger

Well, way back then, a lot of us were sitting around drinking and watching mandy pole dance. I ran out of money, had nothing else to do. went to the SS office and filled out the form. Methusalah, Noah and a few others were right behind me.

/ I heard on the 7th day you played golf with God..
//what was your score and does Tiger have a chance in 70 years?

603 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:31:44pm

re: #587 faraway

Since this is an ID thread, who is No 1?

Some monkey.

604 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:32:10pm

My troops used to tell me I was on the Ark with Noah. Just before I retired!

605 theparson  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:32:13pm

re: #512 HoosierHoops

HoosierHoops,
Thank you very much. You didn't have to apologize and it means a lot to me that you did.

606 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:32:35pm

re: #581 WrathofG-d

Breakdown of religion and acceptance of evolution.
Islam is at the very bottom of the list. But, that poll was taken in America. Internationally the best picture I can find is here, Public Acceptance of Evolution. The only country that even ranks is the modern secular state of Turkey. I think it's a pretty safe bet that the rest of the Islamic world ranks much much lower.

607 Moonzoo  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:33:05pm

re: #530 Killgore Trout

Yay! There are so many examples of observed speciation on the site, you say (a "fact" I am sure will come as a surprise to any scientist regardless of belief) that it ought to be easy for you to select, copy and paste just ONE! Yay! I am waiting for you to do so.

608 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:34:24pm

re: #606 Killgore Trout
How fast is that gonna change? Didn't Turkey pull its textbooks with science and replace them with creationism based teaching?

609 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:34:54pm

re: #606 Killgore Trout

Interesting (and added to my favorites for future use). Of all the religions, islam rejects evolution and accepts ID the most.

610 Atweber[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:35:12pm
611 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:35:27pm

Joe kept his bat in this oil inside his liquor store. The bat finally bent from leaning against the wall.

/ that's the story from some drunks I know, anyway

612 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:35:32pm

re: #607 Moonzoo

You need to be spoon fed?

613 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:35:51pm

re: #567 Killgore Trout

Is it just my imagination or are the creationists getting wackier?

... they're evolving ... ;o)

/grins, ducks, and runs...

614 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:35:56pm

re: #609 Sharmuta
Allahs will is the answer for every question. That is why there is no Jeopardy show in the Majik Kingdom.

615 Moonzoo  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:36:05pm

re: #599 pingjockey

See ... this is the problem. How the heck did you infer anything you attribute to me? Everything you attributed to me, I not only did not say, or imply, but I also consider irrelevant to the point I am making.

Please.

616 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:36:19pm

re: #612 Sharmuta

You need to be spoon fed?

At which end?

617 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:36:27pm

re: #602 HoosierHoops

Yes, don't like to brag. But, you have to be careful, after all the Guy shoots an 18 every round. Once told him to tighten up his grip, got struck by lightning.
Can't really say about tiger, but he's one of the best I've seen. He'll probably respond like Ty cobb. someone asked Cobb how he'd hit if he played against the current crop of ballplayers. cobb said he'd probably only hit .300. Interviewer asked why, Cobb said, "Well, hell, I'm 75 years old".

618 kevinmumaw  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:36:33pm

OT: Proposed George W. Bush Sewage Plant makes ballot

An entire city run by 8 year-olds. Just waiting for the "Lord of the Flies" twist to occur.

619 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:36:34pm

re: #606 Killgore Trout


The only country that even ranks is the modern secular state of Turkey.


Turkey at the bottom and the U.S. one position above? Strange.

620 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:36:44pm

Any comments telling me what I should not post at LGF will be deleted.

621 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:37:03pm

re: #605 theparson

HoosierHoops,
Thank you very much. You didn't have to apologize and it means a lot to me that you did.

/ no..i needed to apologize..
I believe in God..I just hope he believes in me

622 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:37:10pm

re: #614 pingjockey

I'll take Fatalism for $500, Alex.

623 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:37:21pm

re: #610 Atweber
Charles is not berating any religious folks. He is taking a stand against idiotarians wanting to pass off non-science as science.

624 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:38:07pm

Ha! A first for the thread.
I'm glad there are constants in the universe.

625 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:38:20pm

re: #599 pingjockey

So the earth isn't 4+ billion years old, dinosaurs co-existed with man and then died out. Fossils were laid down by the Flood and everything was made at once.

Pffttt.
Don't tell anyone but my day job is chemtrails, I night I hide fossils, special contract with the Magratheans.

626 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:38:24pm

re: #617 grumpy old codger

Yes, don't like to brag. But, you have to be careful, after all the Guy shoots an 18 every round. Once told him to tighten up his grip, got struck by lightning.
Can't really say about tiger, but he's one of the best I've seen. He'll probably respond like Ty cobb. someone asked Cobb how he'd hit if he played against the current crop of ballplayers. cobb said he'd probably only hit .300. Interviewer asked why, Cobb said, "Well, hell, I'm 75 years old".

/Great Story dude!

627 Moonzoo  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:38:24pm

re: #612 Sharmuta

I do not need to be spoon fed. I need to have logic. Not scatter gun gee-whiz ain't it neat "transitional" bones and stolid assertions of actuality.

628 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:38:26pm

re: #615 Moonzoo
Then what the hell are you saying?

629 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:38:36pm

re: #606 Killgore Trout

Breakdown of religion and acceptance of evolution.
Islam is at the very bottom of the list. But, that poll was taken in America. Internationally the best picture I can find is here, Public Acceptance of Evolution. The only country that even ranks is the modern secular state of Turkey. I think it's a pretty safe bet that the rest of the Islamic world ranks much much lower.

Wow, kilgore, that second graph blew me away.
40% of Americans don't think evolution is true, 40% do and 20% don't know?

We're only a little better than Turkey.

630 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:38:38pm

re: #604 pingjockey

My troops used to tell me I was on the Ark with Noah. Just before I retired!

I'm currently with 10th MTN LI. Their patch is a pair of crossed bayonets, which form an X. My guys would tell me that i joined because I thought it the Tenth Legion (X Legio).

631 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:38:50pm

re: #618 kevinmumaw

OT: Proposed George W. Bush Sewage Plant makes ballot

An entire city run by 8 year-olds. Just waiting for the "Lord of the Flies" twist to occur.

"Local Republicans say the plan stinks and they will oppose it."

Funny.

632 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:38:51pm

re: #598 WrathofG-d

Like I said, Islam retroactively claims all kinds of scientific discoveries were predicted in the Quran. That's not surprising. I can find hundreds of articles by muslims claiming to denounce terrorism. Does that prove that Islam rejects terrorism? No, It's anecdotal. The best evidence for my assertions at the stats posted in #606. If your claim is true then why isn't Saudi Arabia or Iran centers of scientific discovery in the the field of biology or evolutionary science? Trust me, very few Muslims believe in evolution.

633 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:39:03pm

re: #620 Charles

Any comments telling me what I should not post at LGF will be deleted.

You need a hot key for that post.....

634 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:39:27pm

re: #630 grumpy old codger
Mwahahaha! Know the feeling.

635 ladycatnip  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:39:56pm

#397 jaunte

The really cool part is that - under the Byzantine Kyoto protocol - most of the $1 billion will go to Russia, which generates about 6 per cent of CO2 (more than Japan and India).

So a clean, non-polluting small country has to pay a gigantic smogtropolis. Makes sense."

Thanks for the link and info on Kyoto. If we join Kyoto, it will be the undoing of our American economy, our way of life and our freedoms. Complete hoax.

636 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:40:06pm

re: #621 HoosierHoops

/ no..i needed to apologize..
I believe in God..I just hope he believes in me

Hoops, I sense a great deal of wisdom in that.

/just sayin' ... and no reply's needed, just wanted to say it

637 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:40:08pm

re: #607 Moonzoo

The London Underground mosquito is a variant of the mosquito Culex pipiens which entered in the London Underground in the nineteenth century. Evidence for its speciation include genetic divergence, behavioral differences, and difficulty in mating.[3]

638 pingjockey  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:40:14pm

BBIAW

639 Catttt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:40:22pm
640 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:40:35pm

re: #618 kevinmumaw

OT: Proposed George W. Bush Sewage Plant makes ballot

An entire city run by 8 year-olds. Just waiting for the "Lord of the Flies" twist to occur.

Wonder what they'd do if GWB issued a statement say he's honored and looking forward to attending the ground breaking.

641 Moonzoo[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:41:06pm
642 Atweber  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:41:09pm

I'm still not buying it. Faith is not proveable or disproveable. Scientific method begins with hypothesis which is tantamount to imagination or faith if you will.

643 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:41:21pm

re: #632 Killgore Trout

Well that is a different question and conversation actually. When reading the Koran I was struck by its statements of evolution, among other things, like the numerous times it states that Allah will punish those that "make gods of G-d", and it is not the job of the Muslim his/herself. These are actually in the later suras.

So why don't Muslims actually live this way? That is a wonderful question. I guess, I could just say that they have all been lied to about what the Koran actually says.

644 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:41:39pm

re: #495 Steve

He won't. You are not Abraham!

Ok, so that we are clear here, you think that this actually happened?

645 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:41:58pm

re: #516 buzzsawmonkey

Come on, the lesson was not to stop child sacrafice. The lesson was obedience to god.

Both, actually.

Obedience, yes, but more, faith. You've got to have it deep inside. Sometimes, in spite of the evidence. See: Job.

This religion stuff is not all that straightforward, opnion. Not any more than is evolution!

646 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:42:01pm

re: #633 jcm

You need a hot key for that post.....

Hell, I think he HAS one!

647 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:42:06pm

re: #590 Moonzoo

Speciation and the related ideas of "evolution" are in the same league as "scientific socialism" (Marxism, the "ultimate" explanation) and "scientific" Freudianism. They are interesting and fascinating. And they have elements of truth. But as a categorical explanation, they are baloney.

Where are you getting this stuff from? You do realize that the entire scientific world disagrees with you, right?

648 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:42:14pm

re: #619 EC Marm

Turkey at the bottom and the U.S. one position above? Strange.

Not just strange, but very, very sad and an indictment of our education system.

649 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:42:26pm

re: #632 Killgore Trout

It seems to me that there is something in Islam that hates all new knowledge. I don't think Saudi Arabia or Iran are the centers of knowledge of anything at all, except Koranic studies.

650 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:42:42pm

re: #643 WrathofG-d

I guess, I could just say that they have all been lied to about what the Koran actually says.

Well- yes. Most muslims are taught the koran in arabic but don't actually speak arabic themselves.

651 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:42:53pm

re: #639 Catttt

My ancesturs r eting ur ancesturs.

ROFLMAO!

652 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:43:06pm

re: #629 angst
Yeah, that's a tough graph. Not only do we barely edge out turkey but notice some of the miserable eastern European countries that kick our asses. (no offense to miserable Europeans)
I have another graph here somewhere on the belief in evolution by political party that will really depress you. Searching.....

653 realwest  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:43:12pm

re: #631 VegasRick You know, you can leave a comment about this proposal here [Link: presidentialmemorial.wordpress.com...]
under the title of "A Fitting Tribute" on the right side column of that page. I did and this is what I wrote:

"I do believe it would be MUCH more fitting to name this
Sewage Treatment Plant, the Lyndon Baines Johnson Sewage Treatment Plant, since at least six times as many American soldiers were killed in action in as dishonorable a war as the war in Iraq and never, of course, achieved anything resembling a democracy to memorialize their efforts.
Of course, LBJ was a Democrat and San Francisco is, well,
San Franciso so I know this would never happen. Still, it’s pleasing to think that the citizens of San Francisco were honest in thier wish to “memorialize” a president of the United States who led so many Men to their deaths in a truly vain effort to win a war the United States should never have become embroiled in, in the first place."

654 EvilConservative  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:43:23pm

For a group of people who normally display a commendable about of intelligence you folks are pretty darn close minded on this issue. I am generally impressed with this group's ability to see through BS, yet it seems like most of you have strapped on the evolution vs. ID armor and are unwilling to listen to reason. Evolution and Creation are NOT at odds with each other. Intelligent Design does not, in anyway, infringe upon the theory of evolution. In fact it only helps to bolster the case for evolution. Nature is full of design, everywhere you look design is the ONLY answer for how life exists in first place. Intelligent Design only serves to answer the question of how nothing became something in the first place. How is that at odds with the progression of development once life started? Can someone explain to me how ID and evolution are at odds with each other, without all he religiously charged rhetoric?

655 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:43:47pm

re: #649 angst

It seems to me that there is something in Islam that hates all new knowledge. I don't think Saudi Arabia or Iran are the centers of knowledge of anything at all, except Koranic studies.

Anything past 632 AD ist verboten!

656 WhiteRasta  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:43:55pm

re: #620 Charles

Any one not liking anything here is free to take their business elsewhere....

657 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:44:21pm

re: #642 Atweber

I'm still not buying it. Faith is not proveable or disproveable. Scientific method begins with hypothesis which is tantamount to imagination or faith if you will.

Bullshit

658 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:44:35pm

I just looked up Shoeless Joe's "Black Betsy" bat and it sold at auction in 2001 for $577,610.

659 christheprofessor  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:44:35pm

re: #640 jcm

Wonder what they'd do if GWB issued a statement say he's honored and looking forward to attending the ground breaking.

They'd probably shit. Of course, they'd say it was out of respect...

660 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:45:11pm

re: #516 buzzsawmonkey

Both, actually.

Why would t6he Deity have to be so vague. Why couldn't He just command Abraham to eradictate the practce. With all rfespect, I would callthis hgistorical revisionism, since I only heard the thing about obedience, but it is not history.

661 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:45:31pm

re: #652 Killgore Trout

Yeah, that's a tough graph. Not only do we barely edge out turkey but notice some of the miserable eastern European countries that kick our asses. (no offense to miserable Europeans)
I have another graph here somewhere on the belief in evolution by political party that will really depress you. Searching.....

Ugh. I already know what it's going to show.....

662 Atweber  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:45:33pm

does anyone believe that travel faster than the speed of light is possible?--if not, why?---because Einstein said so or because someone observed how atoms behave in the cyclotron. The point is that much of what we believe to be scientific methodology is really taken for granted and is easily explained as faith.--oh why bother with this subject ---nobody is going to change his or her mind by what we argue about here today.

663 vapig  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:45:44pm

re: #551 jcm

That snarling Chihuahua nipping at my heels THINKS it's a wolf......

There you go! Mighty heart in a teeny body!

664 faraway  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:46:02pm

seacrest, out.

665 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:46:45pm

re: #642 Atweber

I'm still not buying it. Faith is not proveable or disproveable. Scientific method begins with hypothesis which is tantamount to imagination or faith if you will.

Then faith is not what proves something right or wrong, is it?

666 Atweber  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:47:59pm

no of course not --that's the point ---faith fixes you --you don't fix faith

667 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:48:38pm

re: #645 itellu3times

Obedience, yes, but more, faith. You've got to have it deep inside. Sometimes, in spite of the evidence. See: Job.

This religion stuff is not all that straightforward, opnion. Not any more than is evolution!


I do not attack religion or people of faith, but some of this stuff is silly.
God loves you but kill your kid. A loving god would not test someone to accept profound immorality tp please him.
Ancient man was trying to explain his world and institute social order through fear of a vengeful god.

668 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:48:42pm

re: #643 WrathofG-d
It was Al-Gahzali who destroyed Islamic sciencein about the 10th century. He decided that imperical knowledge was a corrupting Western influence because it didn't include the divine influence of Allah.

669 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:48:58pm
670 Atweber  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:49:18pm

"Sir you failed to give me enough evidence."

671 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:49:42pm
672 Josephine  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:49:58pm

re: #247 BlueCanuck

No problem, It's all us Canucks around here. I am sure there are a few other undeclared ones as well.

/but I know what to look for.

My husband's nic is DutchCanuck. But he rarely comments here.

673 freetoken  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:50:05pm

re: #567 Killgore Trout

Is it just my imagination or are the creationists getting wackier?

Attempts to deal with cognitive dissonance can be unpredictable.

674 Atweber  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:50:11pm

Life---"It's all an accident."

675 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:50:24pm

re: #650 Sharmuta

Although the Koran itself makes no sense and could be cut down to about 2 chapters (maybe less) I was surprised by actually reading it that it wasn't as horrible as what it has produced.

ot:

This seems appropriate somehow.

en espanol.

676 vapig  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:50:28pm

re: #620 Charles

Any comments telling me what I should not post at LGF will be deleted.

!?!

Now who had the audacity to suggest such a thing?

677 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:50:32pm

re: #653 realwest

Hey Real! Good to see you here again. Do you post much in the evening? I'm use to seeing you in the AM.

678 Atweber  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:50:53pm

Evolution is accidental.

679 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:51:21pm

re: #668 Killgore Trout

Well then he is an idiot, because all he needed to do was actually read the Koran.

680 JHW  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:51:34pm

I think this bunch would like to get their version of the truth taught in schools too. What's good for the goose and all that.
Scientific Miricles of the Qu'ran, Creation in 6 days

681 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:51:45pm

re: #654 EvilConservative

Can someone explain to me how ID and evolution are at odds with each other, without all he religiously charged rhetoric?

Because Phillip Johnson wants it that way.

Wedge Strategy
Theist realism

682 ornery elephant  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:51:47pm

re: #660 opnion

Why would t6he Deity have to be so vague. Why couldn't He just command Abraham to eradictate the practce. With all rfespect, I would callthis hgistorical revisionism, since I only heard the thing about obedience, but it is not history.

I think it is pretty clear :

He said, "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

G_d gave Abraham a command. Abraham obeyed.

683 vapig  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:51:51pm

re: #644 opnion

Ok, so that we are clear here, you think that this actually happened?

Yes........

684 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:51:55pm

re: #662 Atweber

does anyone believe that travel faster than the speed of light is possible?--if not, why?---because Einstein said so or because someone observed how atoms behave in the cyclotron. The point is that much of what we believe to be scientific methodology is really taken for granted and is easily explained as faith.--oh why bother with this subject ---nobody is going to change his or her mind by what we argue about here today.

It might be possible to get from point A to point B faster than the speed of light, but not moving through space. Although, there are some interesting observations about muons that suggest they travel faster than the speed of light- but again, is it really travel? The mind boggles.

If something has been proven to go faster than the speed of light, I think it would be kind of cool, myself.

685 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:52:08pm

re: #671 Killgore Trout

BTW, ignore PZ Meyers rant. His numbers are correct.

686 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:52:46pm

re: #671 Killgore Trout

Evolution acceptance by political party

Ouch.

687 HoosierHoops  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:52:51pm

re: #636 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Hoops, I sense a great deal of wisdom in that.

/just sayin' ... and no reply's needed, just wanted to say it

Well i'm not a church guy ( i was raised Catholic so i do the mass thing on a certain schedule..)
But every night while my Son was in Iraq I said a prayer at night..
Please Lord..Spare my Son..
I'm glad God answered my prayer.. I cry for the families who's prayers he didn't answer.. When the 3/5 Marines got off the Bus at camp P at 1am I felt like a world had been lifted off my shoulders..10 of us flew to Cali to meet him and rented a beach house in Oceanside for two weeks.. we had the time of our lives..
and when i finally feel asleep at like noon the next day..
The hoopster fell asleep with tears in his eyes.. that was a first..
And Jordan woke me and mom up with a kiss..I love you pops!
/ then of course he took the keys to the rental and went shopping with his girlfriend for 8 hours

688 Sharmuta  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:53:00pm

re: #681 Sharmuta

Sorry- typing too fast- that should be Theistic realism

689 Atweber  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:53:52pm

It's all very interesting --agreed. Not likely to be resolved here today.

690 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:54:20pm

re: #642 Atweber

I'm still not buying it. Faith is not proveable or disproveable. Scientific method begins with hypothesis which is tantamount to imagination or faith if you will.

WRONG.

You take you hypothesis out into the world. Design experiments, find evidence and prove with data, evidence and logic it is correct. They you put it up for critical examination. Others confirm, refine or disprove the hypothesis. It's not a static process, it's a continuous ongoing OODA loop if you will.

Even something like our knowledge of gravity is undergoing constant refinement.

691 Thanos  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:54:56pm

re: #607 Moonzoo

Why must it be observed? I know the earth's core is molten from the effects seen from volcanoes. I know that black holes exist by their effects on light rays. I know that continents drifted from matching magnetic patterns in the rocks on two sides of the split continents.

Just so we know that evolution happened from a multitude of evidence. This includes gentetic matches among families and orders, it includes the evidence of the fossil records, it includes ring species such as the gull family, which could very well have speciated within observable history. It includes Lenski's experiement and others like it, it includes understanding how some hox genes work. In other words there's tons of evidence for evolution, show me some against if you would.

692 ContraJihadi  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:54:57pm

re: #382 itellu3times

That could have been Dennett, he does tend to wave off the subjectivity of "qualia", as they call it, maybe just a little too soon.

The alternative is to privilege the phenomenological, and ask questions like, "What is it like to be a bat?". There is endless discussion in philosophy of mind, and the related topic of artificial intelligence, about what it is like, to have a pain? Could a computer have a pain, or see red, or be conscious? The related question is, could humans? An alternate question is, can a dog?

For that matter, it is hard to answer the "other minds" question, which is, how do you know that I am conscious, or see red, the same way you do? When it turns out that such simple questions are very nearly unanswerable, it puts the grander questions into a different perspective.

I am going to sneak back for a moment. I always thought that the "other minds" question, as stated, was a bit a a straw man. It is not really necessary for us to settle whether when I say "red," you see "red" exactly as I do:
...I say tomatoe, you say tomato...
It is only necessary that our understandings be similar and mutually communicable. Language, as the expression of objective mind, facilitates the recognition of I and Thou among subjective consciousnesses, exalting them as instances of objective consciousness.

As far as the AI analogies, I am not at all impressed. Such things as computers would not exist if conscious human minds with deliberate purposes had not invented their machinery and wrote their algorithms. Let's not reduce our intentional human minds to the passive, mechanical minions we have created. To do so would be to reify the Gnostic mistake parodied in The Sorcerer's Apprentice.

/Grr, it's hard to stay away from LGF. ... Charles, once agan you do that voodoo that you do so well!

693 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:55:12pm

re: #662 Atweber

does anyone believe that travel faster than the speed of light is possible?--if not, why?---because Einstein said so or because someone observed how atoms behave in the cyclotron.

You are not going to win on "Are you smarter than a 5th grader" with answers like that.

Einstein didn't just wake up one morning and write down an assertion, he came up with a complex and elegant theory that explains a lot of stuff, and in doing so, suggests that at the very least, going faster than light is going to require more than just pushing harder.

The point is that much of what we believe to be scientific methodology is really taken for granted and is easily explained as faith.--oh why bother with this subject ---nobody is going to change his or her mind by what we argue about here today.

You are free to change your mind, once you can even recite a few basic scientific facts correctly. Nothing is taken for granted in science. It is only in faith that you can assert something and be freed from further proof.

694 freetoken  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:55:24pm

re: #629 angst

Wow, kilgore, that second graph blew me away.
40% of Americans don't think evolution is true, 40% do and 20% don't know?

We're only a little better than Turkey.

Over the past couple of decades, a long running Gallup poll has shown that 44% of Americans believe "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so".

That group of people apparently will not be persuaded otherwise. My suspicion is that there is no evidence that could be presented to change their minds.

695 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:55:26pm

re: #671 Killgore Trout

Evolution acceptance by political party

Neither party comes out well on that one, but the Republicans clearly have the edge in creationism. It's horrible.

I think one reason for this has been demonstrated very well in these threads -- as soon as you go off the reservation, people come jumping out of the bushes from all directions to tell you that you're not a real conservative, that you hate religion, that you're insulting people, that you're pointlessly dividing the base, that you must hate God, that you're an atheist, etc. etc. etc.

696 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:55:32pm

re: #671 Killgore Trout

Evolution acceptance by political party

Really, kilgore, thanks for the graphs tonight. I had no idea things were this bad. Charles is right to be concerned.

697 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:56:17pm

wow.

698 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:56:20pm

re: #687 HoosierHoops

Cool story. Thank you for posting. God Bless you and your son.

699 Max Power[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:57:06pm
700 realwest  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:57:31pm

re: #677 VegasRick
No, I do usually post in the morning or late evening (after 11:00 PM Eastern Time) but I saw that San Francisco wants to name it's Sewage Treatment Plant after George Bush, with a Presidential Seal showing the American Eagle with a Toilet Plunger in each claw and felt I had to write something about it to them.
I also figured LGFer's might want to do the same thing; it's a shame that San Francisco is such a pretty city, but occupied by many (mostly?) Ugly people. Thus my letter, quoted in my #653.
And, since my tooth is STILL killing me, I'm outta here for now - hope you have a good evening!

701 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:58:18pm

re: #684 angst

If something has been proven to go faster than the speed of light, I think it would be kind of cool, myself.

See this.

It's not proven, but Meta Research is serious stuff.

702 melinwy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:58:28pm

re: #687 HoosierHoops

what a moving story. Thank your son for me please!

703 Atweber[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:58:31pm
704 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:58:39pm

re: #700 realwest

No, I do usually post in the morning or late evening (after 11:00 PM Eastern Time) but I saw that San Francisco wants to name it's Sewage Treatment Plant after George Bush, with a Presidential Seal showing the American Eagle with a Toilet Plunger in each claw and felt I had to write something about it to them.
I also figured LGFer's might want to do the same thing; it's a shame that San Francisco is such a pretty city, but occupied by many (mostly?) Ugly people. Thus my letter, quoted in my #653.
And, since my tooth is STILL killing me, I'm outta here for now - hope you have a good evening!

Calling it the GWB plant is one thing........the Seal part is another.

705 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:59:04pm

re: #700 realwest

No, I do usually post in the morning or late evening (after 11:00 PM Eastern Time) but I saw that San Francisco wants to name it's Sewage Treatment Plant after George Bush, with a Presidential Seal showing the American Eagle with a Toilet Plunger in each claw and felt I had to write something about it to them.
I also figured LGFer's might want to do the same thing; it's a shame that San Francisco is such a pretty city, but occupied by many (mostly?) Ugly people. Thus my letter, quoted in my #653.
And, since my tooth is STILL killing me, I'm outta here for now - hope you have a good evening!

Thanks. See you later.

706 old tanker  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:59:20pm

re: #693 itellu3times

Einstein claimed nothing of the sort. In his explanation, FTL travel is not possible.........so we should accept that as fact, don't question the man after all......

707 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:59:28pm

re: #695 Charles

Neither party comes out well on that one, but the Republicans clearly have the edge in creationism. It's horrible.

I think one reason for this has been demonstrated very well in these threads -- as soon as you go off the reservation, people come jumping out of the bushes from all directions to tell you that you're not a real conservative, that you hate religion, that you're insulting people, that you're pointlessly dividing the base, that you must hate God, that you're an atheist, etc. etc. etc.

Charles, I have to admit that regarding this issue I have been pretty much one of those "Oh, everybody must think like me, no one could possibly still believe that," types. What an education this has been.

708 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 4:59:56pm

re: #644 opnion

Ok, so that we are clear here, you think that this actually happened?

Yes! The problem is that the Bible is either true or false. For anything to be true it must be 100% true. Anything less will bring the whole book/theory/fact/etc etc into question.

709 mossley  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:00:22pm

re: #662 Atweber

does anyone believe that travel faster than the speed of light is possible?--if not, why?---because Einstein said so .


Not quite. The mathematics in that particular part of his theory are pretty straightforward and simple to follow. It takes infinite energy to accelerate a single particle to the speed of light. In laboratory settings, the amount of energy needed to speed up particles as they approach near relativistic speeds follow these equations precisely. In other words, the equations work.

(For Star Trek geeks, the faster-than-light tachyons aren't ruled out by this. There's nothing in the theory that prevents a particle traveling faster than the speed of light, as long as it was created at that speed. Of course, there's no way to test for faster-than-light particles, so it's not even remotely considered science.)

710 debutaunt  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:00:34pm

re: #538 buzzsawmonkey

I used 99th PercenTile™ to re-do the bathroom.

It looks very smart.

Close to perfect!

711 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:00:36pm

re: #684 angst

It might be possible to get from point A to point B faster than the speed of light, but not moving through space. Although, there are some interesting observations about muons that suggest they travel faster than the speed of light- but again, is it really travel? The mind boggles.

If something has been proven to go faster than the speed of light, I think it would be kind of cool, myself.


Well, if you don't believe in the resurrection of the dead and things moving faster than the speed of light, you've never seen the employees get out of my office at 1600.

712 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:00:37pm

re: #695 Charles

On the bright side if you compare to this graph Republicans beat Muslims on acceptance of evolution, 30% to 20%. Hooray!
/

713 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:00:58pm

re: #667 opnion

I do not attack religion or people of faith, but some of this stuff is silly.
God loves you but kill your kid. A loving god would not test someone to accept profound immorality tp please him.
Ancient man was trying to explain his world and institute social order through fear of a vengeful god.

The lesson of the people of the book is not that, but that moral rules work - as an alternative to doing what the latest god-king says. At least, that's what the Romans said, and why they respected the Jewish faith, and why it caught on around the empire.

If the child had died, we might have to work a bit harder on the rationalization, I grant you that!

714 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:00:59pm

re: #671 Killgore Trout
From the CIA Factbook, religion in the U.S.

Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%, Jewish 1.7%, Buddhist 0.7%, Muslim 0.6%, other or unspecified 2.5%, unaffiliated 12.1%, none 4% (2007 est.)


1. Assuming that the majority of Catholics are Democrats. Not all, a simple majority.
2. Assuming that evolution is taught in Catholic schools. Along with a Biblical view of the creation of the Universe in religion class.

Who are these people in the Republican party that are so opposed to evolution?

715 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:01:26pm

re: #708 Steve

Yes! The problem is that the Bible is either true or false. For anything to be true it must be 100% true. Anything less will bring the whole book/theory/fact/etc etc into question.

Nonsense. It's perfectly possible to see the creation stories in the Bible as allegories, not as literal truth. Millions of people see it that way. The fundamentalist view is not the only one.

716 ContraJihadi  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:01:41pm

re: #695 Charles

Well, Charles, as long as you don't vote for Obama instead of McCain just because there may be more creationists among the Rs than the Ds, then I acknowledge you understand the priorities.

717 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:02:49pm

re: #700 realwest

How's the prostate doing?

718 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:02:56pm

re: #714 EC Marm

This graph has the answers.

719 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:03:01pm

re: #713 itellu3times

I love the "I respect religion but I think its all stupid and I know better" attitude.

Which is how I read opnion. If you respect religion, you respect it for what it says...and for what those that believe believe, you don't get to put your own twist on it. To do so is like saying "I support the troops" but then say you hate everything they do.

Believe it or not, if you trust and believe in G-d, you just might have to accept that He knows better than you what He would or should do.

720 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:03:14pm

OT: Good lord. Fox News is becoming completely unwatchable. Now that idiot E.D. Hill (the "terrorist fist bump" moron) is interviewing Michael Scheuer.

721 wolfie  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:03:16pm

re: #685 Killgore Trout

Someone......I think it was slokat, but am too lazy to look...... linked another survey which was broken down into 3 or 4 categories. The only figures I remember were for those who don't believe in evolution at all. 60%-Rep 40%-Indep 38%-Dem. For the country as a whole it was 45%, IIRC.
A colleague of mine (field in modern US history) said these figures were not significantly lower than ones he's seen from 1950 or so.

722 uncleFuzzy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:03:33pm

Am I the only one that laughed out loud when he read this?

It is a "theory" that admits that evolution and natural selection explain such things as the development of drug resistance in bacteria and other such evolutionary changes within species but also says that every once in a while God steps into this world of constant and accumulating change and says, "I think I'll make me a lemur today."

723 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:03:34pm

re: #568 Steve

I always try to be helpful. What it comes down to, is, do you want to learn more or are you happy just being where you are. Your are free to choose.
Referral is helpful if you take the time to investigate. As it is with any subject.

"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must be first overcome."
Samuel Johnson

Steve perhaps I am misreading you, but you c0ome across rather arrogant.
No I have not closed my mind to learning, you know "happy where I am". Sounds a bit condencending, but you may be happy where you are.
The Bible is neither an historical nor scientific text. Referring to the bible as some how a teacher of the physical world or any thing other than a teacher of religion, seems to me ,misses the point

724 vapig  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:04:23pm

re: #695 Charles

While some of us just respectfully agree to disagree.

725 Thanos  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:04:24pm

re: #720 Charles

OT: Good lord. Fox News is becoming completely unwatchable. Now that idiot E.D. Hill (the "terrorist fist bump" moron) is interviewing Michael Scheuer.

Scheuer's an idiot.

726 ContraJihadi  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:04:33pm

re: #715 Charles

Nonsense. It's perfectly possible to see the creation stories in the Bible as allegories, not as literal truth. Millions of people see it that way. The fundamentalist view is not the only one.

Precisely! Nor is the fundamentalist view the one which most excellently displays the glory of God that transits earth in the rationality of the human mind.

727 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:04:47pm

re: #721 wolfie

Yes, the numbers have been steady for a very long time.

728 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:04:50pm

re: #701 pre-Boomer Marine brat

See this.

It's not proven, but Meta Research is serious stuff.

I just read the Wang light experiment. I love that stuff- it's such a paradox. Many of the studies on light are counter-intuitive. I think we have a long way to go in understanding any of this.

Thanks!

729 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:05:04pm

re: #662 Atweber

does anyone believe that travel faster than the speed of light is possible?--if not, why?---because Einstein said so or because someone observed how atoms behave in the cyclotron. The point is that much of what we believe to be scientific methodology is really taken for granted and is easily explained as faith.--oh why bother with this subject ---nobody is going to change his or her mind by what we argue about here today.

begs the question: If two objects traveling towards each other, both at the speed of light, what is the closing rate of speed? Assumng that light speed is the highest rate of speed.

730 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:06:49pm

re: #729 Steve

begs the question: If two objects traveling towards each other, both at the speed of light, what is the closing rate of speed? Assumng that light speed is the highest rate of speed.

"Ludicrous speed, NOW!"

731 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:06:53pm

re: #708 Steve

Yes! The problem is that the Bible is either true or false. For anything to be true it must be 100% true. Anything less will bring the whole book/theory/fact/etc etc into question.

I never said that. If you recall, I asked the question about Abraham.
I never questioned the entire book. I just think that , that story sends a terrible message and in my opinion could not have happened.

732 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:06:54pm

re: #711 grumpy old codger

Well, if you don't believe in the resurrection of the dead and things moving faster than the speed of light, you've never seen the employees get out of my office at 1600.

Hah!

Well, then they go back in time, so they never actually get to leave.
They should slow down just a little.

733 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:06:54pm

re: #724 vapig

While some of us just respectfully agree to disagree.

And therein (IMHO) lies both maturity and depth of faith.

734 xtraBilly[deleted]  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:07:20pm
735 nnw59  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:07:48pm

It is not we who are making God the enemy of Evolution. It is evolution itself: it is Darwinian evolution that insists on it being unguided and random, not we. As evolutionist George Gaylord Simpson wrote: "Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind." (The Meaning of Evolution, 1967) Don't kid yourself--all of you who think you believe in evolution but that God created it or got it started, or that they are mutually exclusive, or somehow compatible, or whatever are NOT evolutionists. Purposeless and unguided it must remain. Of course that is an article of faith no less falsifiable than design. But it will not matter: you are allowed your article of faith in your science, I am not allowed mine.

736 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:07:57pm

re: #715 Charles

Nonsense. It's perfectly possible to see the creation stories in the Bible as allegories, not as literal truth. Millions of people see it that way. The fundamentalist view is not the only one.


That is actually what I am trying to say. You just said it.

737 uncleFuzzy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:08:15pm

re: #730 VegasRick

Yes, exactly! And then you go plaid!

738 David IV of Georgia  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:08:34pm

I've missed most of this thread and admit to knowing little of what has been said here. I believe in God, yet I find it annoying that some would push a weak and unsustainable argument about God's role in Creation on schoolchildren. You ID proponents will end up no better off than you did in the Scopes monkey trial. You'll only strengthen your foes.

739 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:08:44pm

re: #709 mossley

Not quite. The mathematics in that particular part of his theory are pretty straightforward and simple to follow. It takes infinite energy to accelerate a single particle to the speed of light. In laboratory settings, the amount of energy needed to speed up particles as they approach near relativistic speeds follow these equations precisely. In other words, the equations work.

(For Star Trek geeks, the faster-than-light tachyons aren't ruled out by this. There's nothing in the theory that prevents a particle traveling faster than the speed of light, as long as it was created at that speed. Of course, there's no way to test for faster-than-light particles, so it's not even remotely considered science.)

There might be ways to test for tachyons, it's respectable science. I think the bigger problem is that we don't see any getting produced, there would be problems accounting for mass and energy somewhere, if some of it was zooming out (or in!) as tachyons.

Nor are some kind of wormholes, warps, or stargates necessarily ruled out by Einstein. That's why they are in all that sf, folks. The universe is certainly more complex than Einstein knew, he never accounted for quantum effects we use every day in running our computers, indeed trying to reconcile Einsteinian relativity and quantum physics is still an open problem.

Then again, Einstein could just be wrong, but any new theory has to do at least as well as his did.

740 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:09:08pm

re: #735 nnw59

A perfect example of the wedge strategy in action.

741 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:09:10pm

re: #736 opnion

But if you believe that G-d Himself gave the Torah (bible) to Jews, then we are supposed to believe that G-d gave us "The Law" in allegories?

742 Thanos  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:09:23pm

The other point I would make in reply to "we haven't seen speciation" is that we might have seen it several thousand times and just not know it. New species never seen before are discovered every trip to the Amazon and other places like the ocean depths. Most of them are so newly discovered that we don't have record of their past. We might easily have observed speciation the past two centuries and just not have recognized it as such.

743 opnion  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:09:30pm

Well, time for dinner. Hope to catch up later.

744 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:09:47pm

re: #728 angst

One of these days I'll decide to commit mental suicide (*grin* by frying my brain) and go in and really try to GRASP some of that stuff.

745 mossley  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:09:59pm

re: #175 Arbalest

Potentially OT, but let me ask a question that I rarely hear or see asked:

How, exactly, does the theory of Evolution, and the evidence behind it, change or in any way undermine the New Testament?


I'm a bit rusty on this, and I'm certain there are others here who can explain it better than I can, but the initial religious opposition to evolution had nothing to do with the Bible.

At the time Darwin published, the current theological fad was the idea that Nature was perfect and benign. The Industrial Revolution made the cities particularly nasty places to live, but the countryside was now safe and comfortable, with estates that were basically big nature reserves. (Obviously this was an idea developed by the rich, and not the folks that toiled daily for survival.)

The problem evolution presented to them was it directly contradicted their belief that God created a perfect, beautiful earth. Species died and changed, implying things weren't the romanticized view they held.

746 VegasRick  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:10:13pm

Dang Charles! That was fast! Ludicrous speed indeed! Why can't some of these folks figure out that you mean what you said?

747 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:10:40pm

re: #ANYONE? (now that opnion left)/em>

But if you believe that G-d Himself gave the Torah (bible) to Jews, then we are supposed to believe that G-d gave us "The Law" in allegories?

748 Thanos  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:10:42pm

re: #735 nnw59

It is not we who are making God the enemy of Evolution. It is evolution itself: it is Darwinian evolution that insists on it being unguided and random, not we. As evolutionist George Gaylord Simpson wrote: "Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind." (The Meaning of Evolution, 1967) Don't kid yourself--all of you who think you believe in evolution but that God created it or got it started, or that they are mutually exclusive, or somehow compatible, or whatever are NOT evolutionists. Purposeless and unguided it must remain. Of course that is an article of faith no less falsifiable than design. But it will not matter: you are allowed your article of faith in your science, I am not allowed mine.

Bull. Up until 1968 teaching evolution in school was outlawed by many states for purely religious reasons.

749 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:10:45pm

re: #731 opnion

I never said that. If you recall, I asked the question about Abraham.
I never questioned the entire book. I just think that , that story sends a terrible message and in my opinion could not have happened.

Of all the stores in the Bible, that's the one that stands out to you as unbelievable?

750 Tigger2005  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:10:48pm

I guess every smart guy gets to make one dumb comment, and this one is a humdinger. How does Steyn explain the fact that dinosaurs ruled this planet for millions of years and humans have only been around for maybe 500,000 years and have only had civilization for 6,000, 7,000 years or so?

Then there's his use of the fake word "evolutionist."

And his absurdly off-the-mark reading of what biologists mean when they say we're part of the animal kingdom. I really question whether it was a biologist who first said that biologists believe humans are "just another animal"...I think there's a good chance it was a creationist claiming that 'evolutionists' say this. In any case, all biologists recognize that even though it's clear that we're related to the animal kingdom (the DNA doesn't lie), our intelligence and heightened self-awareness (including awareness of our mortality) sets us apart from them.

I'm not sure what Steyn means by "hyper-rationalism." I guess it's a code word for any scientific endeavor that he personally feels uncomfortable with. What would he have scientists do, only pursue a line of research if it passes a popular vote?

re: #12 Ringo the Gringo

Then you probably won't like this quote by a long time LGF favorite:

The fact is that this is a planet overwhelmingly dominated and shaped by one species, and our kith and kin – whether gibbons or pumpkins – basically fit in in the spaces between. That’s pretty much the world the Psalmist outlined in the Old Testament thousands of years ago. By comparison, the evolutionists’ insistence that we’re just another “animal” seems perverse and irrational and refuted by a casual glance out the window. I am coming round to the view that hyper-rationalism is highly irrational.

~ Mark Steyn


(found at this link)

751 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:11:12pm

re: #749 itellu3times

stories

752 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:11:21pm

I'd like to see creationists explain this one. The frogfish, the animal I call THE CREATIONIST'S NIGHTMARE

753 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:11:33pm

re: #718 Killgore Trout

This graph has the answers.


Yeah, it does. But looking at the sheer numbers in relation to the CIA Factbook percentage, there wouldn't be a whole lot left of the Republican Party without them.
I really can't subscribe to zombies premise that borderline Dems would cross over to the Rep side if the more... um...embarrassing elements of the party were tossed.
Interesting information.

754 ornery elephant  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:11:35pm

re: #723 opnion

perhaps Steve originally misunderstood that you were actually asking a serious question regarding Abraham instead of setting up yourself to be able to refute a story from the Bible.

Kind of a long journey to go from a question in the 400's in this thread to your real reason for asking it , i.e. " The Bible is neither an historical nor scientific text." all the way into comment 723.

755 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:11:37pm

re: #735 nnw59

It is not we who are making God the enemy of Evolution. It is evolution itself: it is Darwinian evolution that insists on it being unguided and random, not we. As evolutionist George Gaylord Simpson wrote: "Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind." (The Meaning of Evolution, 1967) Don't kid yourself--all of you who think you believe in evolution but that God created it or got it started, or that they are mutually exclusive, or somehow compatible, or whatever are NOT evolutionists. Purposeless and unguided it must remain. Of course that is an article of faith no less falsifiable than design. But it will not matter: you are allowed your article of faith in your science, I am not allowed mine.

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure it was you who just disallowed my article of faith.
You just decided the discussion was over before it even started.

756 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:11:42pm

re: #749 itellu3times

The lack of intellectual depth abounds. Its amazing what one can believe and what one figures is impossible.

757 melinwy  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:12:36pm

re: #735 nnw59

As evolutionist George Gaylord Simpson wrote: "Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind." (The Meaning of Evolution, 1967) .

that was HIS opinion

758 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:12:44pm

re: #740 Charles

A perfect example of the wedge strategy in action.

Interesting that it's coming from the other camp, this time.

759 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:12:45pm

re: #752 theatheistjew

Frog and Fish "do it".

760 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:12:58pm

re: #708 Steve

Yes! The problem is that the Bible is either true or false. For anything to be true it must be 100% true. Anything less will bring the whole book/theory/fact/etc etc into question.

The Bible is primary a spiritual text.

Eph 1:17
[For I always pray to] the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, that He may grant you a spirit of wisdom and revelation [of insight into mysteries and secrets] in the [deep and intimate] knowledge of Him,

The knowledge of Him is contained in the text, not a knowledge of the world. Remember Adam and Eve's choice, they choose knowledge of good and evil. The choice not take was knowledge of Him.

Knowledge of Him is now a mystery and secret, require spiritual not intellectual insight. Using scripture as an intellectual text is a fundamental misaiming.

That said the written text is not untrue, but our interpretations are flawed with out the spiritual guidance. See exposition on Hebrew word yowm.

761 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:14:15pm

re: #744 pre-Boomer Marine brat

One of these days I'll decide to commit mental suicide (*grin* by frying my brain) and go in and really try to GRASP some of that stuff.

Well, you'll die happy. Or at least I would, but I'm a hopeless geek.

762 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:16:55pm

re: #759 WrathofG-d

Frog and Fish "do it".

I suggest watching the video. It is two minutes long. I watched it on Nature last night. Amazing stuff.

763 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:17:04pm

re: #735 nnw59

As evolutionist George Gaylord Simpson wrote: "Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind." (The Meaning of Evolution, 1967)

This is a Discovery Institute talking point:

[Link: www.discovery.org...]

764 J.S.  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:18:03pm

re: #750 Tigger2005

Humans -- as in Homo sapiens -- are estimated to have been around for 200,000 years (max 300,000). just sayin'

/I'm sure you already knew that

765 wolfie  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:18:10pm

re: #723 opnion

Actually there are some books of the Bible that are historical texts. There are some that are poetry, some just aphorisms, some prophetic, some expository letters, some hymns, etc. etc. The Book of Job has even been called the first novel.Genesis was certainly written down after centuries and centuries of being narrated orally. The creation hymn inserted into the more prosaic part was surely sung.

I can see why those who don't care for actively seeking out wisdom in literature, poetry, epics, history, etc. might find the Bible annoying.
Most systematic philosophers would have preferred something like Kant's Prologmena to a Metaphysic of Ethics. Many of our contemporaries would have liked a scientific position paper and full explanation of material processes. Unfortunately, God seems to have preferred stories.

Odd, too, that Jesus of Nazareth had the same maddening preference.

766 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:19:05pm

re: #692 ContraJihadi

I am going to sneak back for a moment. I always thought that the "other minds" question, as stated, was a bit a a straw man. It is not really necessary for us to settle whether when I say "red," you see "red" exactly as I do:
...I say tomatoe, you say tomato...
It is only necessary that our understandings be similar and mutually communicable. Language, as the expression of objective mind, facilitates the recognition of I and Thou among subjective consciousnesses, exalting them as instances of objective consciousness.

Yes, but it also allows room for error.

Many things are not as they appear to be. And further insights sometimes prove very useful. Much of this, we call science.

As far as the AI analogies, I am not at all impressed. Such things as computers would not exist if conscious human minds with deliberate purposes had not invented their machinery and wrote their algorithms. Let's not reduce our intentional human minds to the passive, mechanical minions we have created. To do so would be to reify the Gnostic mistake parodied in The Sorcerer's Apprentice.

Reductive explanations do not have to impact the magic of what is explained. A beautiful painting is nothing but paint, a poem nothing but marks on paper, a symphony nothing but a bunch of people blowing horns and making strings vibrate. Consciousness doesn't reduce terribly well to vibrating strings, but perhaps it does reduce to computational elements. That wouldn't change you or me, but might help, oh, a brain surgeon to guess what's broken, and maybe even to fix it.

767 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:19:12pm

Whenever a creationist posts a quote like that, all you have to do is Google it, and 95%+ of the time, you'll find it on one of the creationist web sites. They maintain sites that have come to be known as "quote mines" specifically for this purpose, so that people who really don't understand the issues can go out and proselytize for the cause.

768 WrathofG-d  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:19:21pm

re: #763 Charles

and everything on the flip side is a "Evolutionist" talking point...no?

769 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:19:26pm

re: #718 Killgore Trout
One other thing.
1. Catholic schools are teaching evolution. Protestants rarely attend Catholic schools.
2. Public schools are teaching evolution. Protestants overwhelmingly attend public schools.

There seems to be some influence other than public schools at play here, dontchathink?

771 ContraJihadi  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:20:10pm

No, Steve, as a matter of logic, it is not necessary for the Bible to be either all true or all false, especially in a literal sense.

For example, it is possible that while Joshua did not literally bid the sun to stand still (the result of a litterally "unmoving sun" would have meant the destruction the earth), he could have been so effective in rallying the Hebrew troops that they lost all sense of the passing of time while they attacked the foe; and the foe could have been so astounded that it seemed that no time at all passed before they were defeated.

Other possibilities exist. The narrative I suggested should not itself be taken too literally. The point is, the Hebrews were, because of the beliefs and exertions of Joshua, triumphant, and their nation was established; a new thing came to be in the world, a nation with a monotheistic grounding. This might be miracle enough.

772 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:20:26pm

re: #768 WrathofG-d

and everything on the flip side is a "Evolutionist" talking point...no?

No.

773 itellu3times  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:22:51pm

re: #756 WrathofG-d

The lack of intellectual depth abounds. Its amazing what one can believe and what one figures is impossible.

I target nothing greater than a passing knowledge of science at the junior high school level. When a subject gets deep I go to the presentation, but generally fall asleep.

774 wolfie  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:23:05pm

re: #741 WrathofG-d

But if you believe that G-d Himself gave the Torah (bible) to Jews, then we are supposed to believe that G-d gave us "The Law" in allegories?

People keep talking about "the Bible" as if it is all one thing, one single book. It is a collection of many different types of writings, and many passages are not metaphorical.

775 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:23:12pm

For an atheist like me, the purpose of life is to do our best (mostly through innate behaviour) to try to make sure our individual species makes it to the next generation. The same is true for every animal on this planet.
I'm not sure what the purpose of life is in a world that includes God though.

776 ContraJihadi  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:24:25pm

re: #766 itellu3times

Hmm, it's our old problem. One of us emphasizes how things are weighed and measured from the outside; the other fixes on how they occur as moments of consciousness.

I'll read your Dennett betimes, and talk with my son, and we'll revisit this story anon.

777 angst  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:25:03pm

re: #769 EC Marm

One other thing.
1. Catholic schools are teaching evolution. Protestants rarely attend Catholic schools.
2. Public schools are teaching evolution. Protestants overwhelmingly attend public schools.

There seems to be some influence other than public schools at play here, dontchathink?

Well, if 40% of the population believes in creationism, whatever influence it is is pretty damned big. And just over 2/3 of Catholics accept evolution. What's up with that? This can't just be fundamentalist ministers expounding in the pulpit.

778 Thanos  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:26:21pm

re: #768 WrathofG-d

and everything on the flip side is a "Evolutionist" talking point...no?

I believe you are missing the point here I think Wrath, the bulk of these quotes and counterpoint come from same sources, most are collected at Discovery Institute. To counter points from the DI version of ID proponents here I search scirus, wikipedia, biology papers, a multitude of blogs and science sources. Evidence to support evolution doesn't all come from one point, one country, or even aligned political parties.

779 AndyMacOP  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:26:33pm
How ridiculous to make evolution the enemy of God.

This line says it all for me, a vowed religious and future Catholic priest who believes in God with every fiber of my being.

780 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:26:54pm

When the NT says something about throwing mountains into the sea if you have enough faith, does that mean that one can literally throw mountains into the sea?

It seems that even the biggest bible literalist gets to cherry pick what is metaphor and what is literal.

781 freetoken  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:27:46pm

re: #741 WrathofG-d

But if you believe that G-d Himself gave the Torah (bible) to Jews, then we are supposed to believe that G-d gave us "The Law" in allegories?


Well.... if you believe the Law of Moses is a covenant not unlike in structure to other near-East covenants of the same age, then the covenant document might have different sections, no? And if so, would not a "preamble" (in our modern terminology of writing) be appropriate to introduce a bit of insight into the reasoning behind the rest of covenant? Thus the front matter of Genesis establishes that the covenant is not made between equals, but between a superior and an inferior.

782 mossley  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:27:55pm

re: #708 Steve

Yes! The problem is that the Bible is either true or false. For anything to be true it must be 100% true. Anything less will bring the whole book/theory/fact/etc etc into question.

By your own admission then, the Bible is completely false. Or how do you account for the fact that the Bible contradicts itself in numerous places or is wrong in others? There are different accounts of Judas' fate; there's the completely different genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke (both of which link his descent from David to Joseph, but he wasn't exactly the father, was he?)

There's the reference in Leviticus of insects having four legs, which is patently false. (Unless you want to argue that they've since evolved six legs.) Leviticus also gives us the very false claim that rabbits chew their cud.

This is why the majority of Christians take the Bible to be written as allegory, not to be interpreted literally.

783 Annar  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:30:41pm

re: #251 nikis-knight

Well, what was said by for example Looking Closely and Salamantis is that the term theistic evolution can only mean that God exists but hand nothing to do with evolution whatsoever after the Big Bang (or perhaps the moment of the inception of a protein or nucleic acid).
There is no room whatsoever for any divine intervention. Whatsoever. That is what I am reading in numerous people's posts.

That is incompatible with my faith, because no matter how metaphorical I take Genesis, and I do quite a bit, the whole point is the singular asertion that God did it. It doesn't say how, that is clearly not the main issue.

But if you all are really saying that it is proven God had no role in any of the development of Life, that this is the scientificly proven position, then please don't pretend this doesn't contradict the Christian God.

If you accept the literal truth of the first five books of Bible then you would have to conclude that this god character does not want his experimental animals doing science. The game is fixed in such a way that in doing science we logically arrive at conclusions which contradict what the big guy says is the truth. If his book implies that the creation story started in 4004 BC then you must denounce any scientific theory which implies otherwise as heresy. On the other hand why would he purposely be setting up some of his most intelligent animals for a trip to the hell fire simply because they follow the evidence he has provided them?

Sorry, I don't believe any of that fiction no matter which of the tens of thousands of mutually contradictory 'faiths' is pushing it. Nonetheless I can understand how an allegorical interpretation of many of the various creation stories can be accepted by many as a matter of faith and made to live alongside verifiable science.

784 grumpy old codger  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:30:58pm

Well, obviously there's a big pie fight brewing!
Fellow followers of Velikovsky, rally to the west end!

785 wolfie  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:31:08pm

re: #775 theatheistjew

How many kids have you got?

786 Josephine  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:31:18pm

re: #487 Idaho

BTW, the point of the Abraham story, if you think about it, is not that God told Abraham to kill his son, but that He told Abraham NOT to kill his son. The Jews at the time the oldest parts of the OT were written lived in a world where human sacrifice was not unknown. The Jews did not practice it. The Abraham/Isaac story explains why.

Very interesting. Thank you.

787 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:33:05pm

re: #779 AndyMacOP

This line says it all for me, a vowed religious and future Catholic priest who believes in God with every fiber of my being.

I know you probably have a lot of stuff going on . . . but sure wish you'd pop in on these threads every now and then.

788 ornery elephant  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:33:31pm

re: #780 theatheistjew

When the NT says something about throwing mountains into the sea if you have enough faith, does that mean that one can literally throw mountains into the sea?

It seems that even the biggest bible literalist gets to cherry pick what is metaphor and what is literal.

And Jesus answered them, "Have faith in God. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and east into the sea', and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you receive it, and you will."

- Mark 11:22-26

789 mossley  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:34:47pm

re: #769 EC Marm

Actually, when I went to Catholic school, about half the students weren't Catholic. We had a wide variety of Protestants, a handful of Jewish students, a couple Muslims and at least one Buddhist. We had a lot of fun when the Catholics were preparing for Confirmation as we got to go play outside during their classes.

790 Thanos  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:34:48pm
791 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:35:29pm

re: #785 wolfie

How many kids have you got?

None. Today, to help with the survival of our species, with limited resources on the planet, I'm doing more good for mankind than someone with 4 or 5 kids.
Ant colonies have many ants that don't breed, the overwhelming majority.
But these ants serve a purpose to keep their species going.

792 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:36:01pm

re: #777 angst

Well, if 40% of the population believes in creationism, whatever influence it is is pretty damned big. And just over 2/3 of Catholics accept evolution. What's up with that? This can't just be fundamentalist ministers expounding in the pulpit.


What's up with that? I can't tell you. Killgore Trout, who I've never known to be at a loss for words, seems to be... well, at a loss for words.

793 ContraJihadi  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:36:04pm

re: #779 AndyMacOP

re: #779 AndyMacOP

This line says it all for me, a vowed religious and future Catholic priest who believes in God with every fiber of my being.

You know, if ever I were to become a Christian, I would have to take communion in the Church, even though the idea of the infallibility of the Pope is really quite odious to me. The grounding, in the West, at any rate, stands in Rome.

I have a little book edited by Quentin Lauer, S.J., that has some interesting things to say about Hegel, especially his understanding of the "exaltations" involved in Anselm's Ontological Argument. Are you familiar with this? Or can you tell me what our learned Holy Father from Germany has said about Hegel's theology in general?

(wink back if you want me to give you my email for replying)

794 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:36:10pm

re: #789 mossley

Actually, when I went to Catholic school, about half the students weren't Catholic. We had a wide variety of Protestants, a handful of Jewish students, a couple Muslims and at least one Buddhist. We had a lot of fun when the Catholics were preparing for Confirmation as we got to go play outside during their classes.

And where I live, there are children of many different faiths in the Catholic schools here.
Why? Because the Catholic schools are disciplined, and much is expected, and the kids learn.

795 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:36:51pm

re: #770 Charles

The Quote Mine Project: Examining 'Evolution Quotes' of Creationists

Reading down in this article, "quote mining" immediately strikes me as precisely the same as what is (disparagingly) called "proof texting" in some Christian churches. One has a point one wants to make. One finds a passage of Scripture which can be used to "justify" it.

By definition, proof-texting is taking something out of context.

These people seem to be using a tactic which they ... uh, IMHO ... seen used many times before.

796 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:38:57pm

re: #788 ornery elephant

And Jesus answered them, "Have faith in God. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and east into the sea', and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you receive it, and you will."

- Mark 11:22-26

So if an amputee who believes as much as anyone can, prays for his or her limb to grow back, are you saying it will grow back?

797 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:39:56pm

re: #715 Charles

Yes charles that is true but allegories are designed to teach or help people understand that which is true. People are free to chose to believe what ever they want.

798 Charles  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:41:32pm

re: #795 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Reading down in this article, "quote mining" immediately strikes me as precisely the same as what is (disparagingly) called "proof texting" in some Christian churches. One has a point one wants to make. One finds a passage of Scripture which can be used to "justify" it.

By definition, proof-texting is taking something out of context.

These people seem to be using a tactic which they ... uh, IMHO ... seen used many times before.

It's fascinating, isn't it? The existence of these quote mines, in which many of the quotes are either out of context or wholly fabricated, is one very big reason why no one should trust the Discovery Institute and the other creationist propagandists.

799 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:42:49pm

re: #789 mossley

Actually, when I went to Catholic school, about half the students weren't Catholic. We had a wide variety of Protestants, a handful of Jewish students, a couple Muslims and at least one Buddhist. We had a lot of fun when the Catholics were preparing for Confirmation as we got to go play outside during their classes.


I'm surprised you had that high a percentage. In my area, with the dual burden of high property taxes to fund the public schools, and the high tuition (yet still a bargain at less than 1/2 the cost per student of the public schools) for Catholic Schools, it is becoming increasingly rare to have anyone other than a Catholic student in the school.

800 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:43:17pm

re: #792 EC Marm

The graph I linked to showed that there variety among all the religions and denominations. Even though most Jews and Catholics accept evolution they don't vote as a block. The Jews and Catholics who don't believe in evolution are more likely to be republicans (Stein, Jindal, etc).

801 mossley  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:43:27pm

re: #794 reine.de.tout

And where I live, there are children of many different faiths in the Catholic schools here.
Why? Because the Catholic schools are disciplined, and much is expected, and the kids learn.

Well, there's that, but in my case the city of Wilmington, DE had just enacted an insane school busing program that had kids on buses for hours.

802 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:43:48pm

re: #798 Charles

It's fascinating, isn't it? The existence of these quote mines, in which many of the quotes are either out of context or wholly fabricated, is one very big reason why no one should trust the Discovery Institute and the other creationist propagandists.

Yeah. I'd heard of these, and assumed they existed, but I hadn't seen this website, or anything actually documenting them. It's all so asinine.

803 Tigger2005  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:44:26pm

re: #654 EvilConservative

For a group of people who normally display a commendable about of intelligence you folks are pretty darn close minded on this issue. I am generally impressed with this group's ability to see through BS, yet it seems like most of you have strapped on the evolution vs. ID armor and are unwilling to listen to reason.

Um, no. We're not the close-minded or unreasonable ones here. we have taken the position we have BECAUSE we can see through the B.S. of Intelligent Design. It's not too hard, we have the statements of I.D. proponents themselves, revealing their actual agenda. I really suggest you read the judge's opinion in the Dover case in full (the judge was a conservative, Baptist, Republican by the way).

Evolution and Creation are NOT at odds with each other. Intelligent Design does not, in anyway, infringe upon the theory of evolution.

Then why do evolution proponents say "teach the controversy" and present I.D. as an "alternative" scientific theory to evolution, and not a "supplement" to evolution?

But you're right, I.D. doesn't infringe on the theory of evolution, since there's absolutely no evidence for it. There's no evidence for the activity of an outside, intelligent force in evolution. If an Designer does in fact act on nature, we cannot detect this activity.

In fact it only helps to bolster the case for evolution. Nature is full of design,

Yes, but not in the sense that it was "designed" by an outside intelligence. You think it looks designed because when people make things, they design them. But things in nature are organized (even if they sometimes appear chaotic) through physical, electromagnetic, and chemical forces. A hurricane, for example, is a highly complex, highly organized weather pattern. Does God design every hurricane?

everywhere you look design is the ONLY answer for how life exists in first place.

How do you know this? How do you know it's the "ONLY" answer? May we see your research?

Intelligent Design only serves to answer the question of how nothing became something in the first place.

But you said nature is full of design, now you're saying that the design just happened when "something became nothing"? When exactly did this occur? At the beginning of the Universe? At the creation if the first self-replicating molecule? Please be specific. Feelings are fine, but in science, you can't just go by how you "feel" and make vague statements without backing them up.

How is that at odds with the progression of development once life started? Can someone explain to me how ID and evolution are at odds with each other, without all he religiously charged rhetoric?

Science and I.D. are at odds with each other because, and there is plenty of evidence to prove this, I.D. is a Bible-based (first chapter of John) pseudoscience deliberately "designed" for the purpose of tricking school boards and state legislatures into (or giving sympathetic school boards and state legislatures an excuse for) inserting it into high school science curriculums, specifically for the purpose of undermining the teaching of evolution (and science itself) and subverting the Constitutional separation of church and state.

There is nothing wrong with having faith in God as Creator, having faith that God is behind all of life or that God somehow "guided" evolution according to his own purposes (or even that God simply lets everything run on its own and gives meaning to it merely by observing it and taking delight in it). But again, this is FAITH. What I.D. is, is faith masquerading as science. It is dishonest, and in my opinion, if you are a person of faith, you'd be better off disassociating yourself from it and rejecting it. Although I'm now an atheist, I used to be a believer, but even then I saw I.D. for the B.S. it is and rejected it.

804 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:46:09pm

re: #802 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yeah. I'd heard of these, and assumed they existed, but I hadn't seen this website, or anything actually documenting them. It's all so asinine.

Charles, do you think that your constant hammering of ID (much to my approval), is swaying many of the lurkers and even possibly some of your regulars.

I do.

I've often said that the internet will be the death of the YEC movement.

805 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:46:18pm

re: #800 Killgore Trout
You still didn't answer the question. If evolution is being taught in schools now and the graph shows the percentages who reject it, what is at work to change the opinion/perception of the poll respondents? In your opinion.

806 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:46:47pm

re: #723 opnion

Sorry if I seem arrogent but I hope I am not. I just believe that we should question our beliefs like we were defending a Doctorial Thesis.

ie
Why did you say that...
What did you mean by....
Why is your point of view better then...
etc etc.

You seem to be an intellegent person (just from what little I have read from you today) and that is why I made some of those statements.

Again my apologies for seeming arrogent.

807 Thanos  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:47:28pm

re: #800 Killgore Trout

The graph I linked to showed that there variety among all the religions and denominations. Even though most Jews and Catholics accept evolution they don't vote as a block. The Jews and Catholics who don't believe in evolution are more likely to be republicans (Stein, Jindal, etc).


Here's another study that points out that 16% of science teachers are creationists, and about 12.5 percent teach ID. The DI talking point for "Expelled" is totally blown out of the water by this.

808 Boogberg  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:48:04pm

re: #135 EC Marm

Here's an interesting, fairly short test to take if you're sitting on the sidelines.
I still can't figure out which one I got wrong. Probably the Fed Reserve.

I got the Serbia one wrong.

809 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:50:43pm

re: #804 theatheistjew

Charles, do you think that your constant hammering of ID (much to my approval), is swaying many of the lurkers and even possibly some of your regulars.

I do.

I've often said that the internet will be the death of the YEC movement.

I like to think (sarcastically, and that's a character flaw inside myself) that it won't sway many of the lurkers. I DID notice that kalvinb shut th' hell up, which was what I was after.

My father's mother was like some of these people, only probably worse.

810 Annar  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:50:56pm

re: #398 Throbert McGee

B
I'm just saying, though, that it seems a complete waste of time trying to argue that yom COULD HAVE meant millions of years rather than a 24-hour day -- because even granting that point, we're still left with the awkward fact that according to Genesis, fruit trees were around before there was a Sun.

Maybe god got mixed up while transcribing its diary. Don't worry though, if god won't explain it it's acolytes will make something up; in fact they have done so many times.

811 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:51:20pm

re: #805 EC Marm

Ah, In that case I'm at a loss for a solution. This isn't something that can be "educated" away. I think it's a genuinely anti-intellectual movement and there's no amount of evidence that will change it. If a society decides to reject Enlightenment and Reason there's not much that can be done to stop it. Too many people see secular society as the enemy, they also have become convinced that science is their enemy because it doesn't account for their concept of god.

812 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:51:35pm

re: #795 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Reading down in this article, "quote mining" immediately strikes me as precisely the same as what is (disparagingly) called "proof texting" in some Christian churches. One has a point one wants to make. One finds a passage of Scripture which can be used to "justify" it.

By definition, proof-texting is taking something out of context.

These people seem to be using a tactic which they ... uh, IMHO ... seen used many times before.

Now I take the opposite tact with scripture. It must be contextually consistent with all other scripture. This is the Bereans in Act's proven what Paul wrote against scripture.

Some will bring up the contradictions in scripture. And on face of it there are contradictions, but in a spiritual context and in line with "story line" (for want of a better term) there are no contradictions.

The thing is there are many dualities in scripture, things which are two different things at the same time. For example the Bible says we are free to choose, but also says we are selected before the foundation of the earth. They seem mutually exclusive. However from God's perspective in eternity we are chosen, from our view point in time we choose freely.

There is a more going on in scripture than a "story."

813 Thanos  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:53:09pm

re: #808 Boogberg

I got the Serbia one wrong.

I was 12 for 12, it was scary to see the American public average so low for such simple questions.

814 Render  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:54:12pm

re: #135 EC Marm

12 correct out of 12. What do I win?

EASY
BUTTON,
R

815 Racer X  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:54:53pm

re: #791 theatheistjew

Today, to help with the survival of our species, with limited resources on the planet, I'm doing more good for mankind than someone with 4 or 5 kids.


Thank you for your sacrifice.

/

816 jcm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:55:12pm

re: #814 Render

12 correct out of 12. What do I win?

EASY
BUTTON,
R

Frightening the average is 50%.

817 marjoriemoon  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:55:22pm

re: #660 opnion

Why would t6he Deity have to be so vague. Why couldn't He just command Abraham to eradictate the practce. With all rfespect, I would callthis hgistorical revisionism, since I only heard the thing about obedience, but it is not history.

Jews and Christians see their bibles very differently. It's really apples to oranges in many accounts.

But Buzz is correct about child sacrifice. Here's something that may help:

Isaac was the subject of the tenth and most difficult test of Abraham's faith: G-d commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac as a burnt offering. (Gen 22). This test is known in Jewish tradition as the Akeidah (the Binding, a reference to the fact that Isaac was bound on the altar).

But this test is also an extraordinary demonstration of Isaac's own faith, because according to Jewish tradition, Isaac knew that he was to be sacrificed, yet he did not resist, and was united with his father in dedication.

At the last moment, G-d sent an angel to stop the sacrifice. It is interesting to note that child sacrifice was a common practice in the region at the time. Thus, to people of the time, the surprising thing about this story is not the fact that G-d asked Abraham to sacrifice his child, but that G-d stopped him!

Judaism uses this story as evidence that G-d abhors human sacrifice. ... Judaism has always strongly opposed the practice of human sacrifice, commonplace in many other cultures at that time and place.

818 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:55:47pm

re: #771 ContraJihadi


For example, it is possible that while Joshua did not literally bid the sun to stand still (the result of a litterally "unmoving sun" would have meant the destruction the earth), he could have been so effective in rallying the Hebrew troops that they lost all sense of the passing of time while they attacked the foe; and the foe could have been so astounded that it seemed that no time at all passed before they were defeated.

Yes, but 'IF' God is who he says he is, isn't it possible thatt he can do what ever he wants? Whenever he wants?

Just a question to ponder.

Excellent reply, thank you.

819 theatheistjew  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:55:52pm

re: #813 Thanos

I was 12 for 12, it was scary to see the American public average so low for such simple questions.


I'm Canadian and I just took it. 10-12. How do we know students in Saudi Arabia are bring down the average?

820 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:56:00pm

re: #812 jcm

There is a more going on in scripture than a "story."

heh HEH and octuple-quadzillion-HEH

821 Render  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:56:18pm

I get to sit next to Thanos on the Group W bench!

HUZZAH!,
R

822 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:57:29pm

re: #811 Killgore Trout

Ah, In that case I'm at a loss for a solution.


I'm at a loss for an explanation. Unless science has been relegated to second or third class status in schools.
But that is my belief/conviction/prejudice and I didn't want to influence your answer by mentioning it before.

823 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:58:06pm

re: #801 mossley

Well, there's that, but in my case the city of Wilmington, DE had just enacted an insane school busing program that had kids on buses for hours.

We had OK bus service for grammar school, but H.S. - awful - and they have to change busses. We gave up and bought her a car.

824 Steve  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 5:58:25pm

Charles: Thank you for your reply.

825 EC Marm  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 6:00:08pm

re: #814 Render

12 correct out of 12. What do I win?


You just skewed the curve. That's all you win. They weren't particularly easy questions, imo.

826 profitsbeard  Fri, Jul 18, 2008 6:00:50pm

As Carl Sagan said:

"If you really want to make an apple pie from scratch, first you have to create the Universe."

(Although I heard he preferred pi.)

We are trying to extrapolate a recipe for Everything from the mysterious repast before us.

Or, to expand the metaphor, Reverse Engineering on a Cosmic scale.

Science gets us to the stars.

Faith makes the trip less terrifying.

Even the non-sacramental faith that the ship won't explode on takeoff.

(Even if it sometimes does.)