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Karadzic Defiant in Court

Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 4:20:16 pm PDT

Here’s a Reuters video of alleged war criminal Radovan Karadzic’s appearance at the International Court of Justice in the Hague:

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526 comments

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1 Charles  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:21:13pm

Sheesh. The embed code from that page is showing the alligator bite video.

What up, Reuters?

2 jorline  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:21:28pm

Surprise...Surprise

3 Bobibutu  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:21:41pm

Hmmmm - was there a back room deal?

4 stevieray  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:21:43pm

Wrong video...

5 jorline  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:22:39pm

re: #1 Charles

Sheesh. The embed code from that page is showing the alligator bite video.

What up, Reuters?

Now McCain/Obama ad wars

6 HelloDare  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:22:50pm

Obama lost his toe to an alligator?

7 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:23:02pm

I thought Karadzic was white? Who knew?

8 stevieray  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:23:07pm

re: #1 Charles

Sheesh. The embed code from that page is showing the alligator bite video.

Wow. That is truly defiant! Bit his arm right off!

9 Charles  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:23:16pm

OK, fixed now if you reload the page.

10 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:23:29pm

I'm sure he's defiant- Serbs are pricks.

11 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:23:46pm

re: #7 Nevergiveup

I thought Karadzic was white? Who knew?

A two-armed maniac?

12 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:24:25pm

re: #1 Charles

Sheesh. The embed code from that page is showing the alligator bite video.

What up, Reuters?

Too bad at first I thought they'd just fed Karadzic to an alligator and skipped the whole trial.

13 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:24:56pm

Forget that loser.....
Bibi 's Back, Baby.......
[Link: ap.google.com...]

14 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:25:58pm

re: #1 Charles

Hacked by PETA......

15 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:26:45pm

Mass Murderers aren't very entertaining are they?

16 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:26:53pm

I'm getting deja vu. didn't we do this already?

17 jorline  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:27:00pm

WOW...the before and after capture pics remind me of Saddam...could be brothers...same mind set!

18 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:27:11pm

He has an invisible adviser? Was he treating himself with alternative medicine while he was in hiding playing doctor?

19 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:27:12pm

Genocidal dictators and their thugs usually are defiant.

Right up until the moment the floor drops out from under them.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

20 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:28:14pm

Let the delays begin.

21 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:29:33pm

re: #15 Nevergiveup

Not so much.
Really, they suck....but I am so tired of all the networks and cables going batsheet over every pervert serial murderer, sociopath mom, and whacked out religious zealot on the rampage.....
Seriously, I hurt for her folks, but why is that poor little Caylee in FL nonstop headline news? Obviously it's another psycho mom gone berserk and lying.
Enough.

22 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:31:12pm

Apologies for veering seriously O/T, ya'll...
Back to dishing re the despot.

23 jorline  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:32:32pm

Brothers from different Mothers...here and here

24 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:33:58pm

re: #23 jorline

Another Dr Death, Serbian style.

25 M. Bensson-Levi  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:34:10pm

'Ey! Why not be defiant? The jig's up, why not go out in style?

26 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:36:00pm

Like Slobo, this guy will be a Serbian national hero by the end of the week. U.N. trials are so Kafkaesque and so transparently unfair that they inevitably generate sympathy for the defendant.

27 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:36:17pm

re: #10 Sharmuta

I'm sure he's defiant- Serbs are pricks.

Helluva broad brush there.

28 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:38:14pm

Shit, Hitler never killed a thread like this guy!

29 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:39:57pm

re: #27 wolfie

Well, I have very little sympathy for the Serbs. They are a dysfunctional nation almost on par with the Palestinians.

30 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:41:17pm

re: #26 Dirk Diggler

Like Slobo, this guy will be a Serbian national hero by the end of the week. U.N. trials are so Kafkaesque and so transparently unfair that they inevitably generate sympathy for the defendant.

Good point. I wish the UN weren't so incompetent and morally bankrupt. This guy needs to be publicly condemned and punished, but the UN hasn't got the credibility to do it right.
But what other choice do we have?

31 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:41:35pm

Miserable murdering bastard. Thank god they got him. Now, For Bin Laden and Whitey Bulger...

32 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:41:51pm

re: #27 wolfie

The man's a mass murderer. His countrymen burned our embassy, rioted in the streets that he would face justice, and beat up on their neighbors. They've earned their reputation in my book.

33 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:42:35pm

re: #31 CapeCoddah

I have doubts the Hague would even hear a case against Bin Laden.

34 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:42:43pm

re: #31 CapeCoddah

Miserable murdering bastard. Thank god they got him. Now, For Bin Laden and Whitey Bulger...

He looks alittle like Whitey Bulger?

35 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:43:01pm

re: #10 Sharmuta

I'm sure he's defiant- Serbs are pricks.

you know i dispise what this man has wrought..
I don't think it's fair to say serbs are pricks..

36 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:43:14pm

re: #20 debutaunt

LOL, The Hague does not want to imprison or execute any one, so they drag out the trials until the murdering bastards die of natural causes. Cowards.

37 Racer X  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:44:21pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

Well, I have very little sympathy for the Serbs. They are a dysfunctional nation almost on par with the Palestinians.

Don't know if I'd go that far. That whole area is messed up though. I'm still trying to figure out who the good guys are.

38 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:44:39pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout
When we get Bin Laden, I am pretty sure he will not make it to trial anywhere, one can only hope.

39 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:45:00pm

re: #37 Racer X

Don't trust european ethnic nationalists.

40 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:45:03pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

I have doubts the Hague would even hear a case against Bin Laden.

It's worse than that. He's dead Jim! /Bones

41 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:45:39pm

re: #36 CapeCoddah

LOL, The Hague does not want to imprison or execute any one, so they drag out the trials until the murdering bastards die of natural causes. Cowards.

Yeah, and they are trying the same approach with Nuclear Disarmament and the Spread of Nuclear Technology. Except it don't work that way!

42 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:45:40pm

re: #34 Nevergiveup
No one knows what Bulger looks like at this point, But, they will catch THAt murdering bastard too.

43 Macker  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:45:59pm

re: #20 debutaunt

Let the delays begin.

Just like Slobodan Milosevic Misonofabitch.

44 Alouette  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:46:10pm

Serbs are the only nationality that it is politically correct to portray as bad guys in the movies.

45 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:46:21pm

re: #37 Racer X

Don't know if I'd go that far. That whole area is messed up though. I'm still trying to figure out who the good guys are.

Thery wear little American Flags on their uniforms.

46 stevieray  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:46:53pm

OT

Ben Stein is on Glenn Beck tonight. He [Ben] has lost his mind. Watch the replay if you can.

Stein thinks:

:: McCain is subtly racist because he is running as an 'All American Guy", hinting therefore that Obama isn't.

:: White guilt is normal, those who don't feel it are some sort of sociopath, and guilt is a legitimate reason to vote for Obama.

:: The Kennedy/Reagan/Bush tax cuts didn't increase tax revenues to the feds.

:: Taxes should be raised on the rich.

Ben Stein is a zero to me now. He's gone over to the anti-reality side.

47 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:47:10pm

re: #35 HoosierHoops

I'm sure there are some Serbs who are decent people, but for the most part, what I've seen and what I've learned has left a very bad taste in my mouth concerning this group.

48 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:47:44pm

re: #37 Racer X

There aren't many saints in the region but even the ex-Nazi Croats can behave themselves. Kosovo is looking like it's going to be a very peaceful pro-American ally. The Serbs are still supporting their genocidal former leaders in great numbers. I have little doubt that they'd try it again if they thought there was any chance they could get away with it.

49 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:47:57pm

re: #36 CapeCoddah

LOL, The Hague does not want to imprison or execute any one, so they drag out the trials until the murdering bastards die of natural causes. Cowards.

It mocks actual justice.

50 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:48:16pm

re: #40 lawhawk

That's looking pretty likely.

51 Abu Lahab  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:48:31pm

re: #39 Sharmuta

Don't trust European ethnic nationalists.

That's a golden rule in understanding European politics - thank you.

52 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:48:37pm

re: #49 debutaunt

It mocks actual justice.

Kinda like the OJ trial?

53 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:48:38pm

re: #26 Dirk Diggler

Like Slobo, this guy will be a Serbian national hero by the end of the week. U.N. trials are so Kafkaesque and so transparently unfair that they inevitably generate sympathy for the defendant.

"D-D" -

Thanks for your estimate, mine was 200-300 years before he became the T-Shirt HERO of Serbia - MEET the NEW CHE - SAME AS THE OLD CHE - a WHOLESALE Butcher of Human Beings. I Hope We Won't Be Fooled Again - AND - We Will.

-S-

54 RememberSekhmet?  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:49:43pm

"The Dark Lord will rise again, Crouch! Throw us into Azkaban; we will wait! He will rise again and will come for us, he will reward us beyond any of his other supporters! We alone were faithful! We alone tried to find him!"
—Bellatrix Lestrange at her trial

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire

55 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:49:53pm

re: #46 stevieray

Stein can put you on with a straight face..... is he maybe deadpanning it a little?
Just asking....... haven't seen it.

56 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:50:04pm

re: #46 stevieray

A brain transplant is the only explanation.

57 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:51:06pm

re: #26 Dirk Diggler

Like Slobo, this guy will be a Serbian national hero by the end of the week. U.N. trials are so Kafkaesque and so transparently unfair that they inevitably generate sympathy for the defendant.

He is already. Doesn't need any buffoon treatment to surge the already flaming Serbian pride over him.

58 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:51:33pm

re: #47 Sharmuta

I'm sure there are some Serbs who are decent people, but for the most part, what I've seen and what I've learned has left a very bad taste in my mouth concerning this group.

It's still not fair to portray an entire people as pricks...whoever the serbs are..Let's stick to calling Canadians pricks or dutch people..
I'm sure you've probably had a bad experience with them..
But it just isn't fair...
/off soapbox
regards

59 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:51:56pm

re: #46 stevieray

OT

Ben Stein is on Glenn Beck tonight. He [Ben] has lost his mind. Watch the replay if you can.

Stein thinks:

:: McCain is subtly racist because he is running as an 'All American Guy", hinting therefore that Obama isn't.

:: White guilt is normal, those who don't feel it are some sort of sociopath, and guilt is a legitimate reason to vote for Obama.

:: The Kennedy/Reagan/Bush tax cuts didn't increase tax revenues to the feds.

:: Taxes should be raised on the rich.

Ben Stein is a zero to me now. He's gone over to the anti-reality side.

Somebody needs to be checked for brain tumors.

60 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:52:21pm

re: #59 CyanSnowHawk

Somebody needs to be checked for brain tumors.

It does seem to be going around.

61 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:52:30pm

re: #58 HoosierHoops

They burned our embassy- they get no quarter from me.

62 red collar  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:52:34pm

Ah, now I get it.

They waited 10 years for this guy. Now he's facing charges of genocide.

I guess the UN is waiting for the Darfur genocide to quiet down, to run it's course so they'll only have to do one report about it. Ten years from now, some guy will be charged for everything in Darfur, after everything is finished.

I get it. I don't agree with it, but I get it.

63 littleoldlady  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:52:53pm

I'm gonna miss the rotating headers :-(

64 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:53:03pm

re: #49 debutaunt

The International Court of Justice: Oxymoron(s) of the Weaek.
The yahoos in the Vague are not interested in justice

65 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:53:39pm

oh crap.. i forgot the /sarc..
I love you canadians...Keep the cubians coming..
oh crap..I'm not saying i smoke cigars..

66 seekeroftruth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:53:43pm

Hope it's ok to repost a spin off link from earlier today on this topic. It has information that I wouldn't expect to find in the Reuter's video. The Age is reporting that there was a deal made back in 1996 with Holbrooke, Albright and Karadzic to evade capture. It could be misinformation from Karadzic, but who knows with the Clinton administration.
[Link: www.theage.com.au...]

67 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:54:24pm

re: #64 tradewind

The International Court of Justice: Oxymoron(s) of the Weaek.
The yahoos in the Vague are not interested in justice

What a disgrace for all the victims.

68 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:54:45pm

re: #44 Alouette
That goes back to Gavrilo Princip, who assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand, and touched off WWl.

69 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:55:47pm

re: #49 debutaunt
Did you expect something else from a UN court?

70 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:56:00pm

re: #63 littleoldlady

Hey, Where'd they go?

71 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:57:09pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Hey, Where'd they go?

Uh oh, Charles better be ready for a revolt.

72 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:57:37pm

Springtime for Nasrallah....

Hezbollah's Allah-Akbar Music Vid

73 stevieray  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:57:53pm

re: #55 tradewind

Stein can put you on with a straight face..... is he maybe deadpanning it a little?
Just asking....... haven't seen it.

He was on in two segments. Last I checked, an economist from the WSJ was scolding him.

The phone rang, and I missed the last 30 seconds or so... if it was a put-on, it was a good one.

Oh... and according to Glenn, the "tax cuts fail" argument was from an editorial that Ben sent in to the NYT.

74 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:58:06pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Well, I tried, upthread, with an O/T about Bibi....
No nibbles.

75 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:58:12pm

re: #71 CyanSnowHawk

More dramatic exits!

76 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:58:32pm

re: #63 littleoldlady
Where are the rotating headers going?
I have been working so much, I missed that.

77 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:59:25pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

I kept waiting for the monkeys to come flyin' out of the castle.....

78 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:59:31pm

re: #58 HoosierHoops

It's still not fair to portray an entire people as pricks...whoever the serbs are..Let's stick to calling Canadians pricks or dutch people..
I'm sure you've probably had a bad experience with them..
But it just isn't fair...
/off soapbox
regards

I call the Germans who elected Hilter to power, PRICKS!>or worse. Or at least, a majority-prick nation.

So is Serbia, because its thugs were democratically elected and still enjoy overwhelming popular support.

Not every Serb is a butcher-supporting, genocide-facilitating bastard, of course! But their majority rules, and it's screwed up!

They killed over 11K Jews in WW2, about 7K Bosniacs or more, and about as many Kosovar Albanians. The guys at the top gave the order, but the soldiers/policemen/paramilitary people at the bottom executed them gladly and there is no repentance to this day.

"pricks" is a mild characterization. They would do it all again if they could.

79 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:59:34pm

re: #46 stevieray

I've been suspecting that Beck is a little off his rocker too.

80 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 4:59:50pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

Well, I have very little sympathy for the Serbs. They are a dysfunctional nation almost on par with the Palestinians.

I can see your point. When it comes to the Balkans, I have trouble feeling sympathy for any ethnic group as a whole.

On the other hand, groups are made up of individuals and not all of them support or condone the crimes committed by the likes of Slobo or Karadzic.

That being said, I think your tentative comparison to the Palestinians is an insightful one, even if the Palis, unlike the Serbs, are not really a nationality. The dysfunction would seem to be hatred of the Other above all things (Palis) or at least above most things (Serbs.) Not a recipe for great success.

81 stevieray  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:00:02pm

re: #63 littleoldlady

I'm gonna miss the rotating headers :-(

What happened to the rotating headers? Too much stuff happens when I'm away at work!

82 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:00:20pm

re: #77 tradewind

Heh. At first I thought it was a spoof but I think it's real.

83 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:00:41pm

OT: Hugo's jealous of the US and wants in on the bank takeovers.

Chavez to Nationalize Banco de Venezuela

84 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:00:48pm

re: #61 Sharmuta

They burned our embassy- they get no quarter from me.

I understand.. I'm not picking a fight..
my circle of friends..our little entourage of 8 guys that grew up together..Well one of the dear dudes is from Iran..We've been friends for like forever..Well if somebody says iranians are pricks I'm going to have to face you down.. It's the gov't that are pricks..not the people..
F*ck.. if you want something burned down go to Detroit..Build the embassy there and see how long it stands..
/crap..now the whole state of Michigan hates me
//who cares?

85 littleoldlady  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:01:04pm

re: #76 CapeCoddah

They disappeared!

/...I am NOT responsible.

86 stevieray  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:01:05pm

re: #79 Killgore Trout

I've been suspecting that Beck is a little off his rocker too.

Studying liberals will do that to you...

Heh

87 The Other Les  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:01:12pm

re: #79 Killgore Trout

I've been suspecting that Beck is a little off his rocker too.

Speaking of people who failed their sanity check.

[Link: necrobamacon.blogspot.com...]

88 Racer X  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:01:57pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

Springtime for Nasrallah....

Hezbollah's Allah-Akbar Music Vid

Yes. Allah is great. You can tell by all of these scenes of death, destruction, and oppression.

89 Macker  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:01:57pm

What's up with the headers Charles? Inquiring Lizards Want To Know!

90 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:02:16pm

re: #85 littleoldlady
Thats what they all say!/
Maybe a techincal glitch?

91 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:02:45pm

Thanks to Charles and the LGF, I am fairly conversant on the issue of Kosovo and Bosnia. Yes, this trial will probably be delayed for ages, but this guy isn't going anywhere. He will be sentanced for life and probably die in prison. Damn my UPS's all just alarmed, T-storm is inbound....

92 Charles  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:03:17pm

I'm planning to move the revolving titles to a different place on the page, by the way...

93 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:03:26pm

re: #91 loflyer

Thanks to Charles and the LGF, I am fairly conversant on the issue of Kosovo and Bosnia. Yes, this trial will probably be delayed for ages, but this guy isn't going anywhere. He will be sentanced for life and probably die in prison. Damn my UPS's all just alarmed, T-storm is inbound....

good luck loflyer!

94 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:03:35pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

The man's a mass murderer. His countrymen burned our embassy, rioted in the streets that he would face justice, and beat up on their neighbors. They've earned their reputation in my book.

"Serbs are pricks."
And Americans are fat.

95 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:03:43pm

re: #84 HoosierHoops

I understand.. I'm not picking a fight..
my circle of friends..our little entourage of 8 guys that grew up together..Well one of the dear dudes is from Iran..We've been friends for like forever..Well if somebody says iranians are pricks I'm going to have to face you down.. It's the gov't that are pricks..not the people..
F*ck.. if you want something burned down go to Detroit..Build the embassy there and see how long it stands..
/crap..now the whole state of Michigan hates me
//who cares?

Iran's government is not democratically elected-it's a theocracy, and as such, not representative of the majority of Iranians.

The same cannot be said about Serbia.

96 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:04:19pm

re: #87 The Other Les

Speaking of people who failed their sanity check.

[Link: necrobamacon.blogspot.com...]

The blog title alone is gold plated awesome. Necrobamacon, classic.

97 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:04:43pm

re: #92 Charles
Whew! Scared us there for a minute, Charles!

98 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:06:13pm

re: #97 CapeCoddah

Whew! Scared us there for a minute, Charles!

If he doesn't do things like that, whole minutes can go by where we don't complain about anything.

99 Macker  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:07:10pm

re: #98 CyanSnowHawk

If he doesn't do things like that, whole minutes can go by where we don't complain about anything.

That's what makes Little Green Footballs what it is.

100 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:07:10pm

re: #98 CyanSnowHawk

LOL

101 Maximu§  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:07:14pm

Karadzic Defiant in Court

Did the world expect him to lay down and spread his legs for the corrupt International Court of Justice? This "genocide" charge sounds like BS to this old soldier and I happen to support the Serbian people.

102 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:07:39pm

re: #95 medaura18586

Iran's government is not democratically elected-it's a theocracy, and as such, not representative of the majority of Iranians.

The same cannot be said about Serbia.

i got 2 words for you.. Bill Clinton
anymore generalizations we need to discuss?

103 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:08:28pm

re: #94 wolfie

Would you be as offended if I called the saudis pricks, or would I get a pass?

104 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:09:49pm

re: #103 Sharmuta

Would you be as offended if I called the saudis pricks, or would I get a pass?

An award.

105 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:09:52pm

re: #88 Racer X

I prefer this video on Nasrallah.

106 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:10:04pm

re: #66 seekeroftruth

I hope the bastard is lying about that one. The Clintonistas are sleazy, but I'd have to take their word (gasp) over Karadzic's.

107 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:10:16pm

OK, So, since we have reached 100 posts, Here is an e-mail a client sent me today. Pretty funny. The last line asserts the story's truthfulness, but, one never knows wether this stuff is true or not:

On July 20, 1969, as commander of the Apollo 11 Lunar module,
Neil Armstrong was the first person to set foot on the moon.

His first words after stepping on the moon, 'that's one small step
for man, one giant leap for mankind,' were televised to earth
and heard by millions.

But just before he re-entered the lander, he made the enigmatic
remark 'good luck, Mr. Gorsky .'

Many people at NASA though it was a casual remark concerning
some rival Soviet cosmonaut. However, upon checking, there was
no Gorsky in either the Russian or American space programs.

Over the years many people questioned Armstrong as to what
the 'good luck, Mr. Gorsky 'statement meant, but Armstrong always
just smiled.

On July 5, 1995, in Tampa bay , Florida , while answering questions
following a speech, a reporter brought up the 26-year-old question
to Armstrong .

This time he finally responded. Mr. Gorsky had died, so Neil Armstrong
felt he could answer the question.

In 1938 when he was a kid in a small Midwest town , he was playing
baseball with a friend in the back yard. His friend hit the ball,
which landed in his neighbour's yard by the bedroom windows.

His neighbours were Mr. and Mrs. Gorsky. As he leaned down to pick
up the ball, young Armstrong heard Mrs. Gorsky shouting at Mr.
Gorsky .'Sex! You want sex?!

You'll get sex when the kid next door walks on the moon!'

True story.

108 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:10:28pm

re: #95 medaura18586

Iran's government is not democratically elected-it's a theocracy, and as such, not representative of the majority of Iranians.

The same cannot be said about Serbia.

We had a Christian Iranian working for us for like 25 years. Loved him for the first 20, then he got an attitude during his last five years, and management forced him to retire. He was totally Americanized(TM) and his wife was running a successful child care center so he was living the good life. He would still be working with us if he hadn't become so unhelpful.

109 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:11:20pm

re: #94 wolfie

"Serbs are pricks."
And Americans are fat.

Am not.

110 JammieWearingFool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:11:25pm

Just an observation, but for the second straight night on O'Reilly I heard the Democrat hack use the term hate website, without identifying them of course.

I smell talking points.

111 justdanny  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:11:45pm

ot

Somewhere in Iran a new bridge was built.

112 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:12:53pm

re: #107 CapeCoddah

The version I heard was with regards to oral sex (blow job).

113 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:13:10pm

re: #106 wolfie
That must be one helluva gasp. I would not trust either Clinton to tell me what color the sky is on a clear sunny day.

114 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:14:03pm

re: #112 Slumbering Behemoth

Bill Clinton was there?

115 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:14:32pm

re: #107 CapeCoddah

LOL! Glad I wasn't drinking! I loved the video of an elderly "Buzz Aldrin" decking a conspiracy heckler....

116 The Other Les  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:14:45pm

re: #111 justdanny

ot

Somewhere in Iran a new bridge was built.

Somewhere a mullah got a kickback.

117 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:15:15pm

re: #115 loflyer
Missed that one!

118 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:16:01pm

re: #117 CapeCoddah

Missed that one!

Give me five minutes....

119 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:16:05pm

re: #111 justdanny

ot

Somewhere in Iran a new bridge was built.

Hope their bombs and missiles work as well.

120 Racer X  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:16:35pm

re: #108 loflyer

He would still be working with us if he hadn't become so unhelpful.

Describe "unhelpful".

He turned into a prick?

;-)

121 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:16:40pm

re: #116 The Other Les
The only kickback a mullah deserves is that of a pissy mule.

122 sngnsgt  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:17:18pm

re: #111 justdanny

ot

Somewhere in Iran a new bridge was built.

LOL! That looks more like the PA Turnpike!

123 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:17:44pm

re: #109 debutaunt

Am not.

of course you are not debutaunt..
I'll bet you eat well, run and enjoy life...don't smoke ciggies and look really good..congrads..
did you know Americans are pricks? Did that offend you?
/sarc off

// keep healthy friend

124 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:17:53pm

re: #107 CapeCoddah

False according to Snopes. Funny though

125 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:18:38pm

re: #111 justdanny

ot

Somewhere in Iran a new bridge was built.

Scratch that one from the target list......

126 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:19:13pm

re: #118 loflyer

Give me five minutes....

Here it comes!

127 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:19:35pm

re: #102 HoosierHoops

i got 2 words for you.. Bill Clinton
anymore generalizations we need to discuss?

That's the stupidest thing I ever heard today!

And what would Bill's election say about the majority of Americans should generalizations be valid? Also, not to burst your bubble, but there have been far worse presidents for the US, some of them Repiblican no less. FDR and Nixton come up as bipartisan examples.

Did the US invade, annex, and ethnically cleanse Canada during Clinton's administration? If, like last time I checked, the appropriate answer would be "no", then I cannot generalize to the majority of Americans being butcher-sympathizing freaks and pricks.

Only a minority, represented here by the disgusting poster Maximus, and perhaps you (?) deserves such label.

Also, as a side note, Serbia has much higher turnout than America over elections.

128 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:19:52pm

No Joke. Democrats are laughing at you. They want to see you mired in misery. They want the price of gas to go to $10 before they act to bring prices down. Actually, they wouldn't lift a finger even if that happened.

Give 'em a finger.

Vote 'em out of office.

129 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:20:31pm

re: #124 Neo Con since 9-11

I dont doubt it, which accounts for my disclaimer. This client sends me so much stuff, I would spend all day, every day researching his sources. So, I add the disclaimer when I pass them on!

130 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:20:34pm

re: #114 CapeCoddah

Bill Clinton was there?

Heh, no, but this is the version that I recall hearing:

When Apollo mission astronaut Neil Armstrong first walked on the moon, he not only gave his famous "one small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind" statement, but followed it by several remarks--[mostly the] usual COM traffic between him, the other astronauts, and mission control. Before he re- entered the lander, he made the enigmatic remark, "Good luck, Mr. Gorsky."

Many people at NASA thought it was a casual remark concerning some rival Soviet cosmonaut. However, upon checking, there was no Gorsky in either the Russian or American space programs.

Over the years, many people have question [Armstrong] as to what the "Good luck, Mr. Gorsky" statement meant. On July 5, in Tampa Bay, Florida, while answering questions following a speech, a reporter brought up the 26-year-old question to Armstrong. He finally responded. It seems that Mr. Gorsky had died and so Armstrong felt he could answer the question.

When he was a kid, Neil was playing baseball with his brother in the back yard. His brother hit a fly ball which landed in front of his neighbors' bedroom window. The neighbors were Mr. and Mrs. Gorsky. As he leaned down to pick up the ball, he heard Mrs. Gorsky shouting at Mr. Gorsky, "Oral sex? Oral sex you want? You'll get oral sex when the kid next door walks on the moon!"

This is what I found at Snopes:

Any doubts about the veracity of this legend are laid to rest by the NASA transcripts of the Apollo 11 mission, which record no such statement having been made by Armstrong. Armstrong himself said in late 1995 that he first heard the anecdote delivered as a joke by comedian Buddy Hackett in California.

131 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:21:48pm

re: #102 HoosierHoops

i got 2 words for you.. Bill Clinton
anymore generalizations we need to discuss?

That's the stupidest thing I ever heard today!
Well hopefully i made the top ten..
I just hate generalizations...
/we're not fighting are we?

132 looking closely  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:22:19pm

I remember Saddam Hussein being defiant in court too.
Didn't help him there, did it?

133 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:23:14pm

re: #120 Racer X

Describe "unhelpful".

He turned into a prick?

;-)

He had knowledge of legacy mainframe systems, and refused to help because his job description was now a DB programmer. I help on lots of stuff that is not in my job description. It's called professionalism. Finally management canned him....

134 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:23:14pm

re: #101 Maximu§

Karadzic Defiant in Court

Did the world expect him to lay down and spread his legs for the corrupt International Court of Justice? This "genocide" charge sounds like BS to this old soldier and I happen to support the Serbian people.

Only to down dings for this vile comment so far? Does it say anything about the confusion (or worse) on this thread? ... taps fingers... waits...

135 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:23:31pm

re: #132 looking closely

I remember Saddam Hussein being defiant in court too.
Didn't help him there, did it?

He walked out of court live. It was the gallows that got him!

136 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:23:39pm

re: #126 loflyer

LOL, Good stuff, thanks Lo, I had heard that, but never saw the vid. He should have hit him twice!

137 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:24:49pm

re: #103 Sharmuta

Would you be as offended if I called the saudis pricks, or would I get a pass?

To be honest, I wouldn't be offended, although maybe I should be.
I think I'd give you a pass because I've never actually known a Saudi, and I suppose that personal experience colors my reaction.

138 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:25:20pm

re: #131 HoosierHoops

not fighting at all. Though I bet you dislike some generalizations more than others... the prime example would be pointing the finger at the actions of a "Christian" state and/or its citizens... and generalizing from the political climate of such nation to the prevailing culture/mentality of its citizenry...

139 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:25:27pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

Springtime for Nasrallah....

Hezbollah's Allah-Akbar Music Vid

"K-T" -

TO: "Sheikh" Nasrallah

1. Saw your Video - Congratulations for having a Sound Track That Didn't Sound Like BELLY DANCING!

2. Let the Word Go Forth From This Time and Place, THAT - If you start another WAR - expect the following:

a. LEBANON - Up to the Southern Bank of the Litani SHALL Permanently become territory of Eretz Yisroel.

b. For starting that WAR - YE SHALL BE A SHAHID - Hanging Upside Down From Your Ankles in BEIRUT a-la- BENITO (Finito) Mussolini for losing the land. POOP HAPPENS!

-S-

140 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:26:24pm

re: #130 Slumbering Behemoth
I believe you SB, but thanks for the other version!

141 Charles  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:26:58pm

re: #101 Maximu§

Karadzic Defiant in Court

Did the world expect him to lay down and spread his legs for the corrupt International Court of Justice? This "genocide" charge sounds like BS to this old soldier and I happen to support the Serbian people.

The charges are well-documented, and Karadzic is a mass murderer by anyone's definition. Radovan Karadzic:

Karadzic is accused of personal and command responsibility for numerous war crimes committed against non-Serbs, in his roles as Supreme Commander of the Bosnian Serb armed forces and President of the National Security Council of the Republika Srpska. He is accused of being responsible for the deaths of more than 7500 muslims. Under his direction and command, Bosnian Serb forces initiated the Siege of Sarajevo and carried out numerous massacres across Bosnia. Tens of thousands of non-Serbs were killed, hundreds of thousands were driven from their homes and thousands more were imprisoned in concentration camps where many died. He is accused of ordering the Srebrenica massacre in 1995, directing Bosnian Serb forces to "create an unbearable situation of total insecurity with no hope of further survival of life" in the UN safe area. In addition, he is accused of ordering that United Nations personnel be taken hostage in May-June 1995.

142 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:27:36pm

re: #136 CapeCoddah

LOL, Good stuff, thanks Lo, I had heard that, but never saw the vid. He should have hit him twice!

I think he did the job with just one blow. He was probably 75 or older. That gives me some hope for the future!

143 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:28:05pm

re: #113 CapeCoddah

That must be one helluva gasp. I would not trust either Clinton to tell me what color the sky is on a clear sunny day.

Yeah. That's a toughie. Trust a mass murderer? Trust a Clinton?

Come to think of it, since the story in no way exonerates K of his crimes and therefore is not purely self-serving, and since the Clintons are the greatest of liars,..............I might have to go with the butcher.

144 RememberSekhmet?  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:28:16pm

My best friend in high school was at least part Serbian. Blame Karadzic, Milosevic, and al those types. People are still just people.

145 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:29:35pm

re: #141 Charles

Charles -

Karadzic IS a "Plick" - Luckily, the US has chosen NOT to make him "OUR PLICK." That is all for now.

-S-

146 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:29:51pm

re: #137 wolfie

Yes- I think in all fairness you ought to be equally offended. (I have met a Saudi- but it was far from a typical experience.) But thank you for answering me honestly that I'd get a pass on broad brush strokes for one group but not another.

147 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:30:15pm

re: #144 RememberSekhmet?

My best friend in high school was at least part Serbian. Blame Karadzic, Milosevic, and al those types. People are still just people.

Charles had some good threads and links to informative stories on the situation. I was clueless before I read them....

148 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:30:18pm

re: #138 medaura18586

not fighting at all. Though I bet you dislike some generalizations more than others... the prime example would be pointing the finger at the actions of a "Christian" state and/or its citizens... and generalizing from the political climate of such nation to the prevailing culture/mentality of its citizenry...

Thats good..But i still don't understand..What's a christain state?
I'm Catholic..hundreds of years ago we would just torture you or burn you at the stake..
so catholics are pricks?
/ if you were going all joan of arc on me..then yup..you are a prick..

149 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:31:01pm

re: #142 loflyer
One was great, but that disrespectful little SOB should have gotten one more for good measure. Hope Buzz did not get in trouble for that!

150 sngnsgt  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:31:26pm

re: #142 loflyer

I think he did the job with just one blow. He was probably 75 or older. That gives me some hope for the future!

Too bad it only took the one shot to knock that moonbat on his ass, I'd have liked to see him pop him again!

151 seekeroftruth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:32:31pm

re: #143 wolfie

Yeah. That's a toughie. Trust a mass murderer? Trust a Clinton?

Come to think of it, since the story in no way exonerates K of his crimes and therefore is not purely self-serving, and since the Clintons are the greatest of liars,..............I might have to go with the butcher.

That's how I was reading it too.

152 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:34:00pm

re: #149 CapeCoddah

One was great, but that disrespectful little SOB should have gotten one more for good measure. Hope Buzz did not get in trouble for that!

The police refused to investigate the matter. They witnessed the affair and deemed it justifiable!

153 willowone  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:34:11pm

re: #128 lawhawk

WOW!

154 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:34:33pm

re: #112 Slumbering Behemoth

The version I heard was with regards to oral sex (blow job).

Gee! Thanks for the explanation, I wouldn't have known what you meant otherwise.

155 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:36:10pm

re: #152 loflyer
Well, that is a very good thing. Too bad they did not arrest the Moonbat for harrassment of an elderly person.

156 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:36:59pm

re: #128 lawhawk

Would that I could give more updings. Is it in the spinoffs?

157 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:37:36pm

re: #156 Noam Sayin'

Would that I could give more updings. Is it in the spinoffs?

I don't know why I don't check these things before I ask such stupid questions.

158 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:39:09pm

re: #157 Noam Sayin'

Well, did you check to see? Is it in the spin-offs?

159 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:39:20pm

re: #148 HoosierHoops

Thats good..But i still don't understand..What's a christain state?
I'm Catholic..hundreds of years ago we would just torture you or burn you at the stake..
so catholics are pricks?
/ if you were going all joan of arc on me..then yup..you are a prick..

The massacres in the Balkans are not hundreds of years old (well, not ONLY that old)... The last outburst of mass killings/rapes/expulsions happened less than a decade ago, and their perpetrators still enjoy great popular support in Serbia.

There are catholic pricks, but just there are pricks of every demographic cross section. No one is saying that all Catholics are pricks. Not all Catholic were pricks even during the Inquisition, so drop the straw man.

We can, however, be justified in saying, that inferring from the political climate in Serbia, which is representative of its electorate since their political system is pretty democratic, the majority of Serbian citizens need to get their heads checked. How vast a majority? I can't tell you, but the names and affiliations of their political parties together with the percentage of the popular vote they received, could give you a fairly reasonable picture.

160 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:39:40pm

re: #154 jcw46

Gee! Thanks for the explanation, I wouldn't have known what you meant otherwise.

Well, there are two distinctly different categories of oral sex, you know.

/or are you just one of those selfish bastards that give the rest of us guys a bad name?
//

161 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:39:50pm

re: #158 wolfie

I don't know why I don't check these thing before I ask such stupid questions!

162 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:40:32pm

re: #158 wolfie

Well, did you check to see? Is it in the spin-offs?

Yep. It's in the spinoffs. Another chance to give that post an up-ding.

163 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:40:42pm

re: #155 CapeCoddah

Well, that is a very good thing. Too bad they did not arrest the Moonbat for harrassment of an elderly person.

I don't think there is any law against that. Free speech civil rights declare you can offend anyone, but be prepared for the consequences. Go Buzz!

164 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:41:29pm

The moon landing was a hoax, it was nothing controlled demolitions set off by the man on the grassy knoll to distract us from the neo-con trilateral commission's spraying chemtrails while we watched it on TV to control our brain waves so the aliens can probe us, to make us all slaves of the Zionist conspiracy to control the monetary supply and keeps us all down!

165 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:42:08pm

re: #164 jcm

do I need a

/ ?

166 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:42:39pm

re: #164 jcm

You left out fluoridation of the water?

167 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:42:45pm

re: #164 jcm

Okay, but how does that help the turtles?

168 Macker  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:44:06pm

re: #164 jcm

You forgot to blame George W. Bush.

169 The Other Les  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:44:25pm

re: #167 Slumbering Behemoth

Okay, but how does that help the turtles?

Can we also shave the whales?

170 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:44:50pm

re: #164 jcm

The moon landing was a hoax, it was nothing controlled demolitions set off by the man on the grassy knoll to distract us from the neo-con trilateral commission's spraying chemtrails while we watched it on TV to control our brain waves so the aliens can probe us, to make us all slaves of the Zionist conspiracy to control the monetary supply, keep us all down, and make Bush and his Texas oil buddies rich!

You forgot something. The main motive!

171 BignJames  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:45:09pm

re: #168 Macker

Bush is a puppet......Rove is responsible.

172 stevieray  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:45:41pm

re: #165 jcm

do I need a

/ ?

Is your "/ " made out of tin foil? Then I'd say yes, you need a "/".

/

173 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:45:53pm

re: #148 HoosierHoops

Thats good..But i still don't understand..What's a christain state?
I'm Catholic..hundreds of years ago we would just torture you or burn you at the stake..
so catholics are pricks?
/ if you were going all joan of arc on me..then yup..you are a prick..

"H-H" -

That WAS Hundreds of Years Ago. Since then, the various confessions of the Christian Religion have - LARGELY - reconciled on a day to day basis, with respectful disagreements on matters of doctrine. More or less, we have become the "Faith of the Navy Chaplains", Christian and Jewish, who gave what they could to shipmates, so shipmates could survive. Being Jewish, myself - I describe it from my old UAW Experience, SAME UNION, DIFFERENT LOCAL!

-S-

174 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:46:47pm

It's soooo hard to keep it all straight!

WAAAAAH!

;-P

175 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:46:53pm

re: #164 jcm

The moon landing was a hoax, it was nothing controlled demolitions set off by the man on the grassy knoll to distract us from the neo-con trilateral commission's spraying chemtrails while we watched it on TV to control our brain waves so the aliens can probe us, to make us all slaves of the Zionist conspiracy to control the monetary supply and keeps us all down!

At the time, 1970, the conspiracists were claiming it had all been faked and filmed at the huge dirigible hanger at Moffet field. That gained little traction and I believe Hollywood produced a film portraying a moon or mars landing hoax, somewhere around '73.

176 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:47:38pm

re: #171 BignJames

Bush is a puppet......Rove is responsible.

That's Darth Rove to you. /and don't you forget it.

177 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:47:46pm

re: #159 medaura18586

re: #160 Slumbering Behemoth
Just joshing around although from the context it seemed pretty obvious that the "mrs" was going to do the "mr". As to selfish bastards; my experience has been that the selfishness can be on both sides of the bed.

As to the Serbians and war crimes; they all pretty much feel justified in their attitude.
Although no group can be justified for "ethnic cleansing", the serbs were invaded by the Ottoman turks and were given a very rough time of it.

In that area of the world when they hate, they hate real good and for a long, long time!

178 BignJames  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:48:01pm

re: #175 loflyer

Capricorn One. '78?

179 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:48:01pm

re: #172 stevieray

Is your "/ " made out of tin foil? Then I'd say yes, you need a "/".

/



Shhhhhh! It's secret.

180 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:48:18pm

Ben Stein looks too much like Henry Mitchell, Dennis the Menace's dad in that late 50's TV show.
Recent statements indicate he's really Beaver Cleaver.

181 Macker  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:48:36pm

re: #169 The Other Les

The whales should be nuked.

re: #175 loflyer

At the time, 1970, the conspiracists were claiming it had all been faked and filmed at the huge dirigible hanger at Moffet field. That gained little traction and I believe Hollywood produced a film portraying a moon or mars landing hoax, somewhere around '73.

Dang, I thought you were referring to the movie with OJ in it: Capricorn One.

182 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:48:37pm

re: #159 medaura18586

ok..I don't want to argue..and really never have..I can't drop the straw man cause i don't know what the effen a straw man is..
I've only been here about 6 weeks...I HATE GENERALIZATIONS about people..period dude or dudette..that's all i'm saying...
My godfather is black..and i respect him more than any man in the world..you call blacks pricks.. I will want to knock you out.. it's not fair! can you understand that at least?
Guess what? USA is playing Turkey in Basketball!
GO USA!
BBL

183 eastvillageinfidel  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:48:47pm

re: #175 loflyer

I think O.J. Simpson was in that movie.

184 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:48:55pm

re: #175 loflyer

At the time, 1970, the conspiracists were claiming it had all been faked and filmed at the huge dirigible hanger at Moffet field. That gained little traction and I believe Hollywood produced a film portraying a moon or mars landing hoax, somewhere around '73.

Capricorn One was the Movie.

185 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:49:21pm

re: #178 BignJames

Capricorn One. '78?

That was it....I never saw it because I thought they were FOS.....

186 saberry0530  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:49:32pm

re: #164 jcm

The moon landing was a hoax, it was nothing controlled demolitions set off by the man on the grassy knoll to distract us from the neo-con trilateral commission's spraying chemtrails while we watched it on TV to control our brain waves so the aliens can probe us, to make us all slaves of the Zionist conspiracy to control the monetary supply and keeps us all down!

WHEW! Glad you cleared that up for us.

187 The Other Les  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:49:47pm

re: #173 Dr. Shalit

"H-H" -

That WAS Hundreds of Years Ago. Since then, the various confessions of the Christian Religion have - LARGELY - reconciled on a day to day basis, with respectful disagreements on matters of doctrine. More or less, we have become the "Faith of the Navy Chaplains", Christian and Jewish, who gave what they could to shipmates, so shipmates could survive. Being Jewish, myself - I describe it from my old UAW Experience, SAME UNION, DIFFERENT LOCAL!

-S-

I thought the Jews were still using the beta test version.

188 stevieray  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:50:20pm

re: #180 Capitalist Tool

Ben Stein looks too much like Henry Mitchell, Dennis the Menace's dad in that late 50's TV show.
Recent statements indicate he's really Beaver Cleaver.

Are you watching the Glenn Beck replay?

189 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:50:34pm

re: #175 loflyer

At the time, 1970, the conspiracists were claiming it had all been faked and filmed at the huge dirigible hanger at Moffet field. That gained little traction and I believe Hollywood produced a film portraying a moon or mars landing hoax, somewhere around '73.

Mars, I think. Capricorn Seven. Or was it Capricorn Six? I don't remember the name, but I do remember that it was a pretty bad movie. So bad I broke up with my boyfriend right after it.

Seemed like a good reason at the time.

190 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:50:44pm

re: #177 jcw46

re: #160 Slumbering Behemoth
Just joshing around although from the context it seemed pretty obvious that the "mrs" was going to do the "mr". As to selfish bastards; my experience has been that the selfishness can be on both sides of the bed.

As to the Serbians and war crimes; they all pretty much feel justified in their attitude.
Although no group can be justified for "ethnic cleansing", the serbs were invaded by the Ottoman turks and were given a very rough time of it.

In that area of the world when they hate, they hate real good and for a long, long time!

Uh, I think I lost you there...

Did Serbs ethnically cleanse their Ottoman Turk occupiers out of their lands, or did they attack indigenous neighboring populations in the Balkans, like the Croats, Sloevenes, Bosniacs, and Albanians?

Please enlighten me!

191 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:51:07pm

re: #177 jcw46

Just joshing around...

As was I, thus the sarc tagging. You're right about that selfishness thing as well.

192 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:51:39pm

re: #188 stevieray

Are you watching the Glenn Beck replay?

Never heard of it.
Seldom turn on my tv, except for football season.

193 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:52:18pm

re: #185 loflyer

That was it....I never saw it because I thought they were FOS.....

"lo" -

THEY WERE "Full of Themselves" - They had a PROBLEM, a BIG one - The Decadent USA beat the Spartan USSR - BIG TIME - to the MOON!

-S-

194 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:52:18pm

re: #189 wolfie

Mars, I think. Capricorn Seven. Or was it Capricorn Six? I don't remember the name, but I do remember that it was a pretty bad movie. So bad I broke up with my boyfriend right after it.

Seemed like a good reason at the time.

I am sure it was! The important question is are you happy now?

195 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:52:20pm

re: #186 saberry0530

WHEW! Glad you cleared that up for us.

Somebody has to tell the troof!

196 stevieray  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:52:41pm

re: #174 jcm

It's soooo hard to keep it all straight!

WAAAAAH!

;-P

... and you forgot the gold standard as well.

Remedial Happytime Re-education Camp for you!

197 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:54:13pm

Ben Stein?
Ben Stein?

198 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:54:45pm

re: #196 stevieray

... and you forgot the gold standard as well.

Remedial Happytime Re-education Camp for you!

Do I get happy pills?

199 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:55:04pm

re: #182 HoosierHoops

ok..I don't want to argue..and really never have..I can't drop the straw man cause i don't know what the effen a straw man is..
I've only been here about 6 weeks...I HATE GENERALIZATIONS about people..period dude or dudette..that's all i'm saying...
My godfather is black..and i respect him more than any man in the world..you call blacks pricks.. I will want to knock you out.. it's not fair! can you understand that at least?
Guess what? USA is playing Turkey in Basketball!
GO USA!
BBL

I think I'll drop this with you. As for a straw man, I will tell you exactly what it is: attributing me positions I have never expressed so you can knock them down, while presenting to have addressed my argument.

For example, I never said blacks are pricks.

Nor did I say Catholics are pricks because their religious ancestors burned people alive centuries ago.

Nor did I say that all Serbs are pricks, or whatever.

I merely said that the cultural makeup of a nation can be inferred by its politics. Attacking that statement does not make you "against generalizations" but rather against critical thinking and rational analysis.

G'nite!

200 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:55:22pm

I'd just like to remind everyone that it was Serbs who burned our embassy- that's an act of war. I can't imagine any other group attacking our embassy getting a pass. Why are the Serbs different?

201 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:55:43pm

pretending*

202 lifeofthemind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:56:31pm

Karadzic in court is not a cut and dried issue for two reasons.

1. The US for good reason does not recognize the jurisdiction of the follow on International Court in the Hague that just indicted the High Thug of Sudan. We would probably be happier if some local authority had performed the rituals of justice on Karadzic back in the Balkans. Ideally the same way Ceaucesco was disposed of.

3. We have over decades fallen into the policy of giving many Jefes from the 3rd World a safe exit to a comfortable or at least safe retirement. Examples include Batista, FW de Klerk, Ian Smith, Shah Pahlevi, Baby Doc, and Emperor Bokassa. The policy was always questionable but defended as likely to reduce unnecessary bloodshed if dictators can be induced to go quietly. Why this policy doesn't apply in Europe can be questioned. It smacks of inverse racism.

203 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:57:39pm

re: #200 Sharmuta

I'd just like to remind everyone that it was Serbs who burned our embassy- that's an act of war. I can't imagine any other group attacking our embassy getting a pass. Why are the Serbs different?

Why their our noble Christian bretheren in a crusade against the ghosts of the barbarous false-god-worshipping Ottoman Turks, reincarnated in Bosniacs and Albanians! They are fighting the good fight to preserve Western Judeo-Christian Civilization...

204 Mardukhai  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:57:47pm

re: #47 Sharmuta

I'm sure there are some Serbs who are decent people, but for the most part, what I've seen and what I've learned has left a very bad taste in my mouth concerning this group.

The Serbs have been living in a very tough part of the world since the Ottoman Turk invasion of the fourteenth century. They, and their Croat, Greek, and Albanian neighbors learned a lot of bad habits from the Ottomans, mainly Islamic-style tribalism.

There are no good guys in that part of the world.

205 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:58:09pm

re: #190 medaura18586

"By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims [Bosniaks], the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the forty thousand Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica, a group which was emblematic of the Bosnian Muslims in general. They stripped all the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them solely on the basis of their identity."

Srebrenica Massacre

"Moljević assessed the circumstances in the following manner: One must take the opportunity of the war conditions and at a suitable moment take hold of the territory marked on the map, cleanse [očistiti] it before anybody notices and with strong battalions occupy the key places (...) and the territory surrounding these cities, freed of non-Serb elements. The guilty must be promptly punished and the others deported - the Croats to Croatia, the Muslims to Turkey or perhaps Albania - while the vacated territory is settled with Serb refugees now located in Serbia."

Ethnic cleansing.

206 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:58:26pm

re: #202 lifeofthemind

Wait- so because other thugs got off, this one should?

207 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 5:59:57pm

re: #193 Dr. Shalit

"lo" -

THEY WERE "Full of Themselves" - They had a PROBLEM, a BIG one - The Decadent USA beat the Spartan USSR - BIG TIME - to the MOON!

-S-

I have done a lot of informal research on the Soviet projects for a moon landing. Like the Americans the Soviets opted for a lunar rendezvous using a "super booster" like the American Saturn V. Soviet space exploration was placed in the hands of the military who saw no military reason to land on the moon. The result was the US outspent the Soviets five to one on space exploration, and kicked Soviet ass. PS, We had some super engineers.....

208 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:00:51pm

re: #194 loflyer

I am sure it was! The important question is are you happy now?

Indeed I am!
As I recall, the guy was a crazed environmentalist ,deeply (and perpetually) concerned about preservatives in food and chemicals in our drinking water.
Need I add that he was nevertheless quite fond of ingesting chemical subtances directly?!
Those here old enough will recognize the type!

209 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:00:55pm

re: #204 Mardukhai

So..... they burned our embassy and slaughtered their neighbors because the Turk were there once upon a time? At what point do we hold them accountable for their actions and not make excuses for them?

210 stevieray  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:01:38pm

Q: What do they call the Toyota Landcruiser in Iraq?

In Iraq, every type of automobile has a name. There is the Dolphin (Mercedes C class, named for the tail fins), the phantom (Mercedes convertible, named for the black one that Uday, Saddam’s son, used to drive at high speeds throughout Baghdad, “like a phantom”), the octopus (Mitsubishi, named after what the trademark looks like to Iraqis), and, my old car when I lived here, the butterfly (Daewoo Prince, named again after the trademark). To go to the Kurdish village where my father in law ran a school in his younger years, however, we needed a larger car, a huge one capable of ferrying my entire wife’s family and me (a total of six people) with a large rear load to hold all of the bags. Thus we rented the Toyota Landcruiser, known in Iraq as the Monica (as in Lewinsky).

Cruel as it is, this has rapidly become the staple name for the Landcruiser, replacing the more accurate if more banal term “Landcrooz” that was common earlier, when the Ba’ath used them to ferry around their dreaded security services.

Heh.

Interesting article too. High hopes and crashing lows.

211 Maximu§  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:01:50pm

#141 Charles

Tens of thousands of non-Serbs were killed, hundreds of thousands were driven from their homes and thousands more .....

Thats called War Charles and I'd bet my next check that the Muslims started it. Your good website proves that everyday. Islam is the aggressor.

I'm no expert in that region, but I have a strong gut feeling the Serb's were doing to the non-Serb's (Muslims), exactly what the Muslims had in store for them. Its a brutal region with a brutal history.

Also, haven't we heard similar "Genocide" claims from the International World Court against Israel regarding the Palestinians?

212 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:02:06pm

re: #202 lifeofthemind

Karadzic in court is not a cut and dried issue for two reasons.

1. The US for good reason does not recognize the jurisdiction of the follow on International Court in the Hague that just indicted the High Thug of Sudan. We would probably be happier if some local authority had performed the rituals of justice on Karadzic back in the Balkans. Ideally the same way Ceaucesco was disposed of.

3. We have over decades fallen into the policy of giving many Jefes from the 3rd World a safe exit to a comfortable or at least safe retirement. Examples include Batista, FW de Klerk, Ian Smith, Shah Pahlevi, Baby Doc, and Emperor Bokassa. The policy was always questionable but defended as likely to reduce unnecessary bloodshed if dictators can be induced to go quietly. Why this policy doesn't apply in Europe can be questioned. It smacks of inverse racism.

WHAT HAPPENED TO TWO? What! Are you messing with us? or what? Where's the effing TWO? Doggone it if you're going to enumerate items then DON'T SKIP NUMBERS!

/screws head back onto neck and resumes sanity mode

213 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:02:25pm

re: #203 medaura18586

Why their our noble Christian bretheren in a crusade against the ghosts of the barbarous false-god-worshipping Ottoman Turks, reincarnated in Bosniacs and Albanians! They are fighting the good fight to preserve Western Judeo-Christian Civilization...

Nonsense.
Serb leaders just fanned the flames of ancient hatred in that area to enhance their own power, just like Hitler did and every other tin pot dictator ever has and still does. just look at Hugo Chavez- he does the same thing.

If you're making excuses for what the Serbs did, you've gone wrong in my book.
There is no excuse for that stuff.
that is the way the world works, however, and the Serbs were just one of the more recent examples of it.

214 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:02:31pm

re: #208 wolfie
Kinda like "Cheetos are bad for you, Please pass the smack?"

215 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:02:33pm

$0.02 on the lively debate here:
to H-H: fair's got nothing to do with it, but it could be a misunderstanding of the meaning of words. If I may interpret for Sharmuta, the way he used the word "pricks" is rather specific, and it is a perfectly good usage to say that, say, black are not pricks while Serbs are, and maybe Ossetians are too. If you like, one can say that their popular will exhibits a lot of supremacist, aggressive notions that we would regard prick-like.
to Sharmuta: this is the kind of people that remain this side of the border of jihad after so many centuries. Vlad the Impaler was a sadistic prick but kept jihad at bay. And when the US and Europe were throwing them under the bus again, they elected a prick like Miloshevic who let pricks like Karadzic do dirty work. And they burned our embassy because we gave away a part of their land to Dar al Islam.

216 stevieray  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:02:57pm

re: #198 jcm

Do I get happy pills?

Of course! In Obama's America we get all the pills we want for free!

217 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:03:13pm

re: #204 Mardukhai

That ding down was a mistake. Meant to ding up. Sorry :(

218 lifeofthemind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:03:16pm

re: #206 Sharmuta

Wait- so because other thugs got off, this one should?

I'd prefer it the other way around. Policy should be professionally executed, flexible enough to adapt but not giving the odor of being ad hoc and subject to political and theatrical manipulation. My argument was for dealing with the culprit on the spot. A good argument can be made that we should have just shot the Nazis rather than hold trials with the Soviets sitting in judgement as our equals over the Germans.

219 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:05:07pm

re: #207 loflyer

I have done a lot of informal research on the Soviet projects for a moon landing. Like the Americans the Soviets opted for a lunar rendezvous using a "super booster" like the American Saturn V. Soviet space exploration was placed in the hands of the military who saw no military reason to land on the moon. The result was the US outspent the Soviets five to one on space exploration, and kicked Soviet ass. PS, We had some super engineers.....

The early Russia Venus probes, like Venera-3 where pretty impressive, brute force engineering to over come the g-forces, temperatures and pressures. Venera-3 was the 3rd or 4th landing attempt and the first successful one.

The missions the US accomplished in the early 60's and the minimal computer power to accomplish those missions still amazes me.

220 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:05:23pm

re: #208 wolfie

Indeed I am!
As I recall, the guy was a crazed environmentalist ,deeply (and perpetually) concerned about preservatives in food and chemicals in our drinking water.
Need I add that he was nevertheless quite fond of ingesting chemical subtances directly?!
Those here old enough will recognize the type!

Glad you dropped him, and even happier that you grew from the experience..

221 jaunte  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:05:26pm

re: #213 Capitalist Tool

I'm pretty sure that bit was sarcasm, without the /

222 wolfie  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:05:53pm

re: #214 CapeCoddah

Kinda like "Cheetos are bad for you, Please pass the smack?"

You got it...and said it better than I ! Brevity is the soul of wit!

223 HoosierHoops  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:06:18pm

re: #199 medaura18586

Hey..it's a comercial..
listen..I don't know about straw men and i don't pick fights..
you called serbs pricks so why not blacks?
I just don't get it and it's ok..
I wish you well and going back to the game...
-the hoopster..

224 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:06:49pm

re: #213 Capitalist Tool

She was being sarcastic.

225 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:06:58pm

re: #222 wolfie
LOL, Gotta love hypocrite moonbats!

226 lifeofthemind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:07:22pm

re: #200 Sharmuta

I'd just like to remind everyone that it was Serbs who burned our embassy- that's an act of war. I can't imagine any other group attacking our embassy getting a pass. Why are the Serbs different?

Act of war? Who hasn't attacked the US Embassy? It is almost a requirement to try it if you want your kid to get into a good American college.

227 razorbacker  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:08:22pm

I'm a man of many prejudices, but I know what they are and try not to let them influence me too very much. One thing that I have learned is not to judge a people by their elected leaders.

If I did, I'd have to conclude that the majority of MA folks are woman-drowning drunks, Congressional-page-molesting perverts, or homosexual whore-mongers.

Or that New Yorkers are lying harpies or smarmy a**hole Schumers.

Or that PA residents are slimy troop-hating gasbags.

Or that Califorinicators are ... well, I'm not even going there.

Not enough people pay attention to their leaders. We put up with crap from our elected representatives that we would never stand for from our spouses, pastors, Boy Scout troop leaders, dentists, bankers, etc.

Why do they get such a pass? Because they 'bring home the pork'?

228 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:08:35pm

re: #226 lifeofthemind

So- now were making excuses for burning our embassy?!

229 Luigi  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:09:15pm

I sure hope this means we've thrown the Russians overboard in the next phase of space exploration.

Nine nations sign landmark lunar exploration agreement
[Link: space.newscientist.com...]

"ROUND up the usual suspects," barks the police captain in the movie Casablanca. Jim Green, NASA's chief of planetary sciences, was reminded of those words after nine nations signed a ground-breaking agreement on 29 July to cooperate over moon exploration. Unlike Casablanca, however, he couldn't do that. "Russia and the European Space Agency have heavy commitments. So we have teamed up with some emerging space nations," Green says.

The UK, Canada, India, France, Italy, Japan, South Korea and Germany will work with NASA on building and operating a network of sensor-stuffed robotic lunar probes that will monitor, measure and analyse the moon's surface and subsurface geology in unprecedented detail (New Scientist, 12 July, p 34)

The Russians have been creeping me out during the whole space station phase. When the shuttle visited the station recently the Russian computers mysteriously lost the ability to control oxygen levels. Another time the whole station lost stability. The latest revelation a few months ago was that the Russians were keeping at least one weapon on board.

230 Maximu§  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:09:26pm

re: #200 Sharmuta

I'd just like to remind everyone that it was Serbs who burned our embassy- that's an act of war. I can't imagine any other group attacking our embassy getting a pass. Why are the Serbs different?

Yeah so?

We bombed the s**t out of the Serb's power plants (something we didn't even do in Iraq), bombed bridges, bombed hospitals etc etc.....and than created an Islamic state right in their face.

Your surprised the Serbian mobs burned down our embassy? I'm not and I don't blame them. WE FUK'd UP! We stuck our nose where it did'nt belong!

231 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:09:27pm

re: #215 kuchuklambat

Please check your sexist assumptions in at the door.

232 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:09:28pm

Not lurking. Just not a lot to add. The depravity of humanity makes me sad. Can't imagine murdering people because they didn't go to my church.

Gosh, sounds a little "Pollyanish".

"DIE HERITICS!"

233 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:09:45pm

re: #215 kuchuklambat

And they burned our embassy because we gave away a part of their land to Dar al Islam.

I know very little about the history of that area, but I thought that Kosovo (sp?) broke away it self, rather than being "given away" by the U.S.

As far as the folks who burnt our embassy are concerned: Fuck 'em, they're pricks!

234 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:11:31pm

re: #207 loflyer

I have done a lot of informal research on the Soviet projects for a moon landing. Like the Americans the Soviets opted for a lunar rendezvous using a "super booster" like the American Saturn V. Soviet space exploration was placed in the hands of the military who saw no military reason to land on the moon. The result was the US outspent the Soviets five to one on space exploration, and kicked Soviet ass. PS, We had some super engineers.....

"lo" -

GOOD! And as I am an American with Ethnic Roots in the Old USSR/Russian Empire, GO America, Go Seversky (a/k/a Republic Aircraft, in the DAY), GO Sikorsky - Father of the Helicopter. All the result of the "October Revolution."

-S-

235 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:11:32pm

Holy sh*t! So we deserved to have our embassy burned because we "stuck our nose where it didn't belong" by trying to stop genocide.

pat buchannan would be proud of that type of argument.

236 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:11:47pm

re: #227 razorbacker
Actually, in reference to the Massachusetts General Court, you are not too far off! We have quite a diverse cadre of molesters, drunks, crooks and liars and perverts walking the halls of Beacon Hill.

237 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:11:55pm

re: #216 stevieray

Of course! In Obama's America we get all the pills we want for free!

Happy Happy Joy Joy!

238 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:12:39pm

re: #219 jcm

The early Russia Venus probes, like Venera-3 where pretty impressive, brute force engineering to over come the g-forces, temperatures and pressures. Venera-3 was the 3rd or 4th landing attempt and the first successful one.

The missions the US accomplished in the early 60's and the minimal computer power to accomplish those missions still amazes me.

The Venus probes were the high-point of the Soviet space exploration program. My understanding is that Gemini rendezvous computers only had 24 K memory, Apollo 48 K. Incredible!

239 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:13:23pm

Yugoslav wars (1991-2001)

The first of these conflicts, known as the Ten-Day War or "The War" in Slovenia, was initiated by the secession of Slovenia from the federation on 25 June 1991. The federal government ordered the federal Yugoslav People's Army to secure border crossings in Slovenia. Slovenian police and Territorial Defense blockaded barracks and roads, leading to standoffs and limited skirmishes around the republic. After several dozen deaths, the limited conflict was stopped through negotiation at Brioni on 9 July 1991, when Slovenia and Croatia agreed to a three-month moratorium on secession. The Federal army completely withdrew from Slovenia by 26 October 1991.

/and then things got ugly

240 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:13:38pm

re: #219 jcm

The early Russia Venus probes, like Venera-3 where pretty impressive, brute force engineering to over come the g-forces, temperatures and pressures. Venera-3 was the 3rd or 4th landing attempt and the first successful one.

The missions the US accomplished in the early 60's and the minimal computer power to accomplish those missions still amazes me.

The Soviet "Saturn V" was a complete flop, and that doomed their moon missions.

The booster used a staggering array of small(er) engines, because the Soviets could not match the power of the American engines, and they were working with a similar payload. The design was incredibly difficult to control (lining up thrust on five engines is more difficult than one, but try a couple dozen).

OTOH, the Soviets kept simple yet effective technologies, unlike the US space program which basically reinvents the wheel every so often. We budgeted our way out of the Saturn V, and replaced it with...nothing. Now, with the technology to actually achieve assembly in orbit for a Mars mission, etc., we lack a heavy booster to deliver the parts. And the Saturn V, designed and developed before the computer revolution, depended on blueprints that are now missing (budget cuts again).

241 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:14:12pm

re: #234 Dr. Shalit

"lo" -

GOOD! And as I am an American with Ethnic Roots in the Old USSR/Russian Empire, GO America, Go Seversky (a/k/a Republic Aircraft, in the DAY), GO Sikorsky - Father of the Helicopter. All the result of the "October Revolution."

-S-

The Soviets lost mare than they can imagine when they let Sikorsky immigrate.....

242 Maximu§  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:14:19pm

re: #235 Sharmuta

Holy sh*t! So we deserved to have our embassy burned because we "stuck our nose where it didn't belong" by trying to stop genocide.

pat buchannan would be proud of that type of argument.

Comparing me to Pat Buchanan? Thats a cheap shot...feel free to debate me when you can speak like an adult.

243 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:14:26pm

re: #233 Slumbering Behemoth

Hey Sleepy B- I've been slowly learning about the region myself, but what I can tell you is allowing european ethnic nationalists to run rampant is never a good idea.

244 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:15:24pm

re: #242 Maximu§

Get better reading comprehension, and perhaps I will. I didn't compare you to buchannan, just your argument.

245 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:15:28pm

re: #231 Sharmuta
whoa still not sure what that was. i haven't in this discussion and still don't regard pricks as referring to body parts. is that what you meant? M mystified, but i'll check them at the door if i find them, to be sure.

246 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:15:55pm

re: #245 kuchuklambat

I'm not a "he".

247 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:16:00pm

re: #243 Sharmuta

The words "ethnic nationalists" = "Bad effing news" no matter what ethnicity.

248 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:16:25pm

re: #211 Maximu§

#141 Charles

Tens of thousands of non-Serbs were killed, hundreds of thousands were driven from their homes and thousands more .....

Thats called War Charles and I'd bet my next check that the Muslims started it. Your good website proves that everyday. Islam is the aggressor.

I'm no expert in that region, but I have a strong gut feeling the Serb's were doing to the non-Serb's (Muslims), exactly what the Muslims had in store for them. Its a brutal region with a brutal history.

Also, haven't we heard similar "Genocide" claims from the International World Court against Israel regarding the Palestinians?

Serbs beat the Muslims to it?
Serb actions were ok because that's war?
Surround a Muslim village of non combatants and murder everyone in it?
Intimidate a bunch of hapless Dutch/UN soldier/cowards into releasing all Moslems who've sought refuge with the UN troops and then marching the civilians out to their death isn't a war crime?

Fact is, all parties in that mess have kept eggin' each other on for generations, tellin' the same kinds of lies about each other that the Palis teach their kids about the Jews.
One can build a case against anybody with little effort. Deciding then to go in and murder a bunch of people on the basis of your own BS or for any other reason is just wrong. No matter how much land you expect to gain.

249 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:16:53pm

re: #247 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And their history in europe is particularly troubling.

250 yochanan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:16:53pm

re: #209 Sharmuta

the Croat and Bosnian butchered this generations Serbs parents during ww2. all of this did not come out of the blue, plus the Muslims and Croats also did ethnic cleaning in this war as well. NO ONE HAD CLEAN HANDS but the Serbs lost the war so the winner Croats the justice.

Andersonville wasn't the only hell hole during the civil war almost as many sessch pow's died in the POW camp in Chicago but since the north won the war the camp director in Chicago did not get hung only the leader of Anderson got that fate.

the UTASHI were croate fascists who commited genoicde during the war and the grand mufti organized SS division from bosnian and albanian muslims.

251 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:16:57pm

re: #235 Sharmuta

Moral Equivalence: It's not just for lefties anymore.

252 faraway  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:17:09pm

re: #247 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The words "ethnic nationalists" = "Bad effing news" no matter what ethnicity.

Are you talking about Rev Wright and Trinity Church?

253 sparrowlake  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:17:10pm

re: #209 Sharmuta

So..... they burned our embassy and slaughtered their neighbors because the Turk were there once upon a time? At what point do we hold them accountable for their actions and not make excuses for them?

Karadzic and other Balkan butchers must now answer a strong case of genocide, murder, torture and other beastly war crimes. How anyone can ignore the evidence and excuse their conduct is beyond me - but then again, many people ignore and excuse Arab genocidal aims against the Jews of Israel, and that is also beyond me.
We live in a relative paradise here in North America, but let's remain mindful that we are all just one step out of the jungle.

254 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:17:13pm

re: #230 Maximu§

. WE FUK'd UP! We stuck our nose where it did'nt belong!

I agree with that part.

255 Bobibutu  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:17:20pm

re: #238 loflyer

The Venus probes were the high-point of the Soviet space exploration program. My understanding is that Gemini rendezvous computers only had 24 K memory, Apollo 48 K. Incredible!

Hey! That was frikkin huge back then and programmers (good ones) could do a lot with it.

256 rawmuse  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:17:26pm

re: #230 Maximu§

Yeah so?

We bombed the s**t out of the Serb's power plants (something we didn't even do in Iraq), bombed bridges, bombed hospitals etc etc.....and than created an Islamic state right in their face.

Your surprised the Serbian mobs burned down our embassy? I'm not and I don't blame them. WE FUK'd UP! We stuck our nose where it did'nt belong!

Don't forget the train bombing. A civilian train, packed with commuters. We blew it up. Sort of like the Chinese Embassy. Oopsie. Just another Wesley Clark operation, following on the massive success of the Branch Davidians.

257 Racer X  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:18:04pm

In the immortal words of Harry Tasker ".... they were all bad".

258 lifeofthemind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:18:21pm

Another ad idea for McCain
1. Start with Obama's poster.

2. Blend through a montage of other images of dictators and radicals.

3. A scroll "We don't do it that way in America"

4. End with the a carved inscription quoting John Adams
     "A Government of Laws, and Not of Men."

259 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:18:29pm

re: #233 Slumbering Behemoth

mmm yeah. just kinda broke off, gently like. how are christian communities doing there lately by the way? Saudis putting enough cash and imams there?

260 Jim in Virginia  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:18:48pm

re: #164 jcm
Don't forget the masons and the Bilderbergers.

261 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:18:54pm

re: #238 loflyer

The Venus probes were the high-point of the Soviet space exploration program. My understanding is that Gemini rendezvous computers only had 24 K memory, Apollo 48 K. Incredible!

I read about some of the code they used, by re-using and re-arranging 4 bit words, they could store images, align for communications, or course corrections. Very elegant and highly efficient code use. (MS take note).

262 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:18:56pm

re: #110 JammieWearingFool

Oh, he probably meant DailyKos.......

263 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:19:13pm

re: #250 yochanan

the Croat and Bosnian butchered this generations Serbs parents during ww2. all of this did not come out of the blue, plus the Muslims and Croats also did ethnic cleaning in this war as well. NO ONE HAD CLEAN HANDS but the Serbs lost the war so the winner Croats the justice.

Andersonville wasn't the only hell hole during the civil war almost as many sessch pow's died in the POW camp in Chicago but since the north won the war the camp director in Chicago did not get hung only the leader of Anderson got that fate.

the UTASHI were croate fascists who commited genoicde during the war and the grand mufti organized SS division from bosnian and albanian muslims.

So, The Jews in Paris today would be right to go on a killing binge in Vichy?

264 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:19:56pm

re: #219 jcm

The early Russia Venus probes, like Venera-3 where pretty impressive, brute force engineering to over come the g-forces, temperatures and pressures. Venera-3 was the 3rd or 4th landing attempt and the first successful one.

The missions the US accomplished in the early 60's and the minimal computer power to accomplish those missions still amazes me.

"jcm" -

Especially the minimal Computers. Effectively, Apollo was done with Commodore 64's - Quite an achievement.

-S-

265 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:20:38pm

re: #250 yochanan

Various groups of humans have committed atrocities against other humans throughout history. At what point do blood feuds no longer count as an excuse for this behavior in the minds of rational people? At some point- there has to be accountability, no?

266 razorbacker  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:21:30pm

re: #236 CapeCoddah

Don't feel too bad. We've got Senator Blanche "Blank Stare" Lincoln and a legacy Mark Pryor, who's sole accomplishment is to be the son of former Senator David Pryor.

267 faraway  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:21:39pm

re: #256 rawmuse

Don't forget the train bombing. A civilian train, packed with commuters. We blew it up. Sort of like the Chinese Embassy. Oopsie. Just another Wesley Clark operation, following on the massive success of the Branch Davidians.

So, Churchill and FDR should have stood trial for the Dresden bombings 12 weeks before the end of WWII?

268 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:21:48pm

re: #265 Sharmuta
A million updings, Sharmuta

269 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:22:40pm

re: #240 OldLineTexan

The Soviet "Saturn V" was a complete flop, and that doomed their moon missions.

The booster used a staggering array of small(er) engines, because the Soviets could not match the power of the American engines, and they were working with a similar payload. The design was incredibly difficult to control (lining up thrust on five engines is more difficult than one, but try a couple dozen).

OTOH, the Soviets kept simple yet effective technologies, unlike the US space program which basically reinvents the wheel every so often. We budgeted our way out of the Saturn V, and replaced it with...nothing. Now, with the technology to actually achieve assembly in orbit for a Mars mission, etc., we lack a heavy booster to deliver the parts. And the Saturn V, designed and developed before the computer revolution, depended on blueprints that are now missing (budget cuts again).

The N1 booster, Sergei Pavlovich Korolev died and any hopes of making the N1 worked died with him.

270 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:22:46pm

re: #261 jcm

I read about some of the code they used, by re-using and re-arranging 4 bit words, they could store images, align for communications, or course corrections. Very elegant and highly efficient code use. (MS take note).

Bill Gates once remarked about the elegance of (early) Windows compared to its rivals. He said that IBM had designed OS2 as if they had set out to build the world's heaviest airplane.

Vista anyone?

271 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:23:09pm

re: #263 Capitalist Tool

So, The Jews in Paris today would be right to go on a killing binge in Vichy?

`

In the the Balkans, the ethnic grudges go back many centuries and they take them very seriously.

/there are no clean hands in the region

272 rawmuse  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:23:14pm

re: #267 faraway

So, Churchill and FDR should have stood trial for the Dresden bombings 12 weeks before the end of WWII?

From whence do you extrapolate that?

273 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:23:15pm

re: #266 razorbacker
Know the feeling, We just elected the widow of a deceased lib, because of her last name. No experience at all.

274 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:23:35pm

re: #241 loflyer

The Soviets lost mare than they can imagine when they let Sikorsky immigrate.....

"lo" -

"YUP" Nothing more NEED be said.

-S-

275 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:23:38pm

re: #204 Mardukhai

The Serbs have been living in a very tough part of the world since the Ottoman Turk invasion of the fourteenth century. They, and their Croat, Greek, and Albanian neighbors learned a lot of bad habits from the Ottomans, mainly Islamic-style tribalism.

There are no good guys in that part of the world.

No good guys except for the Serbs, of course!

You, sir/madam are a frigging idiot!

The Greeks are 100% Christian Orthodox, just like the same Serbs, and the two nations are cultural twins in many aspects. The Greeks are just as nonOrthodoxophobes as the Serbs (and yes, that includes Islamophobia). The Croats are 100% Catholic.

What is so Islamic in the style of the tribalism of these Balkan nations? And after you answer that, next question is how did the Serbs manage to exempt themselves from the so-called Islam-style tribalism infused by the Ottomans, to which none of their neighbors were immune to?

Oh, and as if only the Serbs had it bad during Ottoman Occupation...

But whatever they do, they can do no wrong, right? I know why you feel that way: because their seething bigotry and violence is the pedestal you cannot reach, an idealistic attitude your semi-civilized ass cannot afford in the moderate society in which you live (USA I assume).

Wouldn't you just love to ethnically cleanse all Muslims of this world, and next all Christians not belonging to your own sect...

I'm sick to my stomach...

276 Bobibutu  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:23:44pm

re: #264 Dr. Shalit

"jcm" -

Especially the minimal Computers. Effectively, Apollo was done with Commodore 64's - Quite an achievement.

-S-

When the 64 came out it blew away 4 bangers (+, -, x, /) forever.

277 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:24:01pm

re: #271 Killian Bundy

`

In the the Balkans, the ethnic grudges go back many centuries and they take them very seriously.

/there are no clean hands in the region

Quite right.

278 lifeofthemind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:24:14pm

One good argument for supporting the Kosovo strategy of the Europeans is that it scares the shit out of the Chinese especially and other dictators of psuedo nation states with artificial post colonial borders. Most of the rulers in the Middle East and Africa walk by a map of the Balkans like they are whistling past a graveyard.

279 yochanan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:24:30pm

in this round the croats did there own ethnic cleanining serbs were kicked out of eastern croata. and bosnians did it too. i never said the serbs were guiltless just that all sides did not have clean hands.

and on the subject of jews in france or anywere else in europe GET YOUR TOUCKAS OUT OF THERE BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.

280 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:24:34pm

re: #269 jcm

The N1 booster, Sergei Pavlovich Korolev died and any hopes of making the N1 worked died with him.

Four first-stage malfunctions, four big explosions.

Cool link, thanks.

281 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:24:40pm

re: #255 Bobibutu

Quality - not quantity.

That 16k was enough to get men into orbit and back safely.

Now? You might end up with this.

282 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:24:58pm

re: #265 Sharmuta

With a few exceptions, the Holocaust and WWII being the most notable(and morally imperative, as well as strategically necessary), we** have been fairly selective about the injustices and genocides that we step in to rectify. I'm not necessarily saying this is always a bad modus operandi.
**The West, as well as America

283 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:26:28pm

re: #240 OldLineTexan

USAF starting letting out contracts for development of the F-1 around about 1959. This gave the Americans a huge edge in the space race because the Soviets were relying on multiple lower thrust engines to do the same job, and their computer control technology was still in the fifties. They wouldn't even fund a static test stand for the booster for proper testing. The result was four super boosters destroyed, along with one rocket pad. Static testing would of solved nearly all the failures of the booster before flight. Penny smart, pound foolish.....Of course Soviet propaganda immediately announced they had never had any manned moon landing programs because they could do the job more effectively with robots. History proves they were damn liars.

284 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:26:42pm

re: #259 kuchuklambat

You said "we gave away a part of their land". I was unaware that Kosovo was ours to give away. Was it once one of these extra 57 states I keep hearing about?

285 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:26:43pm

re: #270 Capitalist Tool

Bill Gates once remarked about the elegance of (early) Windows compared to its rivals. He said that IBM had designed OS2 as if they had set out to build the world's heaviest airplane.

Vista anyone?

I don't know about Vista, but all the DOS core windows and NT core windows have all the GUI code for all of them. You can go into the XP registry, set some GUI parameters and the interface on screen will be Windows 3.0.

286 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:26:49pm

re: #271 Killian Bundy
This is not an ethnic grudge. It's just jihad and that's who lives on its bloody border.
Sharmuta, that's not right and someone has to be accountable, you bet.

287 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:27:13pm

re: #279 yochanan

in this round the croats did there own ethnic cleanining serbs were kicked out of eastern croata. and bosnians did it too. i never said the serbs were guiltless just that all sides did not have clean hands.

and on the subject of jews in france or anywere else in europe GET YOUR TOUCKAS OUT OF THERE BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.

Let us hope that the rumblings we hear from the continent are just from the tiniest and most insignificant minority...

288 Maximu§  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:27:33pm

re: #256 rawmuse

Don't forget the train bombing. A civilian train, packed with commuters. We blew it up. Sort of like the Chinese Embassy. Oopsie. Just another Wesley Clark operation, following on the massive success of the Branch Davidians.

Exactly what I'm talking about.....Thank You!

Most people in here bad-mouthing my POV don't realize your acting on shear emotion and that needs to be counter-balanced with facts and commonsense.

Have any of you ever noticed when the word "Genocide" is used...all reason is tossed out? That single word caused us to Bomb the living crap out of the Serbian people and that claim proved to be wildly exaggerated. Leftists toss that word around pretty casually these days and Ive heard it used against Israel in the Jenin fight and that was proved false.

289 Jim in Virginia  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:27:35pm

re: #265 Sharmuta

The Ulster Irish Protestants and Catholics appear to have forgiven each other after 400 years of mutual violence and learned to live together peacefully. If they can do it, anyone should be able to.

290 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:27:35pm

re: #213 Capitalist Tool

Nonsense.
Serb leaders just fanned the flames of ancient hatred in that area to enhance their own power, just like Hitler did and every other tin pot dictator ever has and still does. just look at Hugo Chavez- he does the same thing.

If you're making excuses for what the Serbs did, you've gone wrong in my book.
There is no excuse for that stuff.
that is the way the world works, however, and the Serbs were just one of the more recent examples of it.

Uh,.. sorry, I forgot the sarc tag!

Remember me from the earlier thread? I am Albanian.

291 Bobibutu  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:28:44pm

re: #281 lawhawk

agreed.

292 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:29:13pm

re: #276 Bobibutu

When the 64 came out it blew away 4 bangers (+, -, x, /) forever.

"Bobbity"

Commodore 6052 Processor and all?

-S-

293 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:29:15pm

re: #283 loflyer

The space program stuff is politically interesting. You can see the decline of NASA in budgets as early as 1971. I read several of them as a NASA contractor 1985-1993. I was still one of the noobs when Challenger exploded, and when the Shuttle Orbiter fleet is retired, a small bit of my work will (hopefully) still be in orbit on the space station.

294 Jim in Virginia  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:29:27pm

re: #266 razorbacker

Don't feel too bad. We've got Senator Blanche "Blank Stare" Lincoln and a legacy Mark Pryor, who's sole accomplishment is to be the son of former Senator David Pryor.

I'll trade you for Jim Webb and John Mark Warner.

295 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:30:13pm

re: #284 Slumbering Behemoth

no, wasn't ours. but you know how it works, we have a big stick. used it on Belgrade too.

296 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:30:35pm

re: #278 lifeofthemind

One good argument for supporting the Kosovo strategy of the Europeans is that it scares the shit out of the Chinese especially and other dictators of psuedo nation states with artificial post colonial borders. Most of the rulers in the Middle East and Africa walk by a map of the Balkans like they are whistling past a graveyard.

That would kinda through the Middle East for a loop.
Put 'em all in one big sandpile.

How does that scare the Chinese?

297 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:30:36pm

re: #286 kuchuklambat

This is not an ethnic grudge. It's just jihad and that's who lives on its bloody border.

What you talkin' 'bout Willis?

/jihad?

298 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:31:52pm

re: #289 Jim in Virginia

The Ulster Irish Protestants and Catholics appear to have forgiven each other after 400 years of mutual violence and learned to live together peacefully. If they can do it, anyone should be able to.

Exactly, Jim. But I guess some would rather make excuses rather than put adult burdens on brats.

299 razorbacker  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:33:18pm

re: #294 Jim in Virginia

Heh. I cried because I had no shoes, then met a man with no feet.

300 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:33:29pm

re: #296 Capitalist Tool

That would kinda through the Middle East for a loop.
Put 'em all in one big sandpile.

How does that scare the Chinese?

The Chinese have many ethnic minorities. In China, the Han people are the "privileged" group in most areas.

As the old empire/communist collectivist nation-states continue to take damage (USSR, anyone?) and fragment into near-tribal collections of "identities", the Chinese are keeping a nervous and heavy hand on their problem areas. Tibet, anyone? It goes further than that...

301 CapeCoddah  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:33:35pm

re: #294 Jim in Virginia

If this is a trade thing, I have Ted Kennedy, John Kerry and Barney Frank, and Bill Delahunt... all offers will be considered! I will even take Manny Ramirez back in trade!

302 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:33:49pm

re: #289 Jim in Virginia

The Ulster Irish Protestants and Catholics appear to have forgiven each other after 400 years of mutual violence and learned to live together peacefully. If they can do it, anyone should be able to.

"JiVA" -

If memory serves, the Battle of Boyne was only about 320 years ago. A mere piffle.

-S-

303 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:34:17pm

re: #299 razorbacker

Heh. I cried because I had no shoes, then met a man with no feet.

But, then I was happy again, because...he sold me his shoes...really cheap!

304 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:34:20pm

re: #286 kuchuklambat

This is not an ethnic grudge. It's just jihad and that's who lives on its bloody border.
Sharmuta, that's not right and someone has to be accountable, you bet.

Why it just wouldn't give you any seething pleasure and an occasion to demonize Muslims if it happened to be just a plain old ethnic conflict going back far before Ottomans/Islam were ever introduced to the region.

So then it MUST be jihad!

Of course!

305 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:34:43pm

re: #293 OldLineTexan

The space program stuff is politically interesting. You can see the decline of NASA in budgets as early as 1971. I read several of them as a NASA contractor 1985-1993. I was still one of the noobs when Challenger exploded, and when the Shuttle Orbiter fleet is retired, a small bit of my work will (hopefully) still be in orbit on the space station.

I am placing my hopes with privatization and outfits such as Virgin Galactica. My confidence with NASA is zero after crashing two shuttles with no realistic provisions of crew escape in an emergency. Give me back the NASA of the Sixties! Thats not going to happen, hence my hope for private enterprise....

306 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:34:53pm

re: #297 Killian Bundy

yea, you know, mohammed, kaffirs, war against, dar al harb? a hot part of that border in the balkans, stayed put longer than most. Might have something to do with the situation? who was it this prick was slaughtering? lutheran males?

thanks for gary coleman visual tho.

307 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:35:04pm

re: #289 Jim in Virginia

The Ulster Irish Protestants and Catholics appear to have forgiven each other after 400 years of mutual violence and learned to live together peacefully. If they can do it, anyone should be able to.

Yeah with walls between neighborhoods.

Trust me; they ain't forgot or forgiven or learned to live peacefully. They just got tired for awhile of all the killin'. As to the 400 years, the irish feel the english started it and the irish are gonna end it. Northern Ireland or no Northern Ireland.

308 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:35:38pm

re: #305 loflyer

Every think Richard wishes he would have named his company "Battlestar"?

309 Kenneth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:35:43pm

As Yugoslavia began to break apart, the Communist rulers were desperate to hold onto power. The Serbian faction, led by Milosovic saw that by promoting ethnic supremacy of the Serbs was their best hope of staying in power. To that end they whipped up ethnic chauvinism, organized death squads and began attacks on other ethnic groups. They hoped these attacks would produce violent reactions by angry mobs of Bosnians, Croats, Macedonians & Kosovars. This was not a spontaneous eruption of ancient hatreds. The ensuing cycle of atrocities and reprisals was a consciously executed strategy of the Serbian Communist rulers. The Salafists did not arrive in the Balkans until after the fighting began as the Bosnian & Kosovar Muslims sought out help wherever they could find it.

The horrble mess that is Serbia, Bosnia & Kosovo is a direct consequence of the decisions of the former Communist rulers to hold onto power at any cost.

310 Bobibutu  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:36:58pm

re: #292 Dr. Shalit

Heady days for those who saw the possibilities.

311 loflyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:36:59pm

re: #308 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Have you seen the new BSG on the SF channel? Very impressive! My favorite curse is "Frack"!

312 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:37:52pm

re: #311 loflyer

Nah. Just going for the joke.

313 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:38:21pm

re: #300 OldLineTexan

The Chinese have many ethnic minorities. In China, the Han people are the "privileged" group in most areas.

As the old empire/communist collectivist nation-states continue to take damage (USSR, anyone?) and fragment into near-tribal collections of "identities", the Chinese are keeping a nervous and heavy hand on their problem areas. Tibet, anyone? It goes further than that...

"O-L-T" -

And with the possible exception of the TIBETANS - because of their High Profile Western Friends - The HAN Chinese will TAKE NO POOP! Rather be an "N-Word" than a Uigher in China.

-S-

314 federale86  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:38:23pm

Fight the Power. The UN, EU, socialist power that is.

315 Jim in Virginia  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:38:36pm

More VP speculation at NRO:
Obama/ Kaine
McCain/ Kasich

I'd be happy with Kasich.

316 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:39:51pm

re: #305 loflyer

I am placing my hopes with privatization and outfits such as Virgin Galactica. My confidence with NASA is zero after crashing two shuttles with no realistic provisions of crew escape in an emergency. Give me back the NASA of the Sixties! Thats not going to happen, hence my hope for private enterprise....

Virgin will go nowhere useful.

NASA of the sixties is never coming back; NASA has been a political football since Richard Nixon.

The shuttle is not capable of being modified for any "realistic provision of crew escape in an emergency", if you have more than two crew with ejection seats and pressure suits on the flight deck. After the Challenger accident, I worked with JSC Structures and Mechanics Division on a host of proposals. I can tell you with personal knowledge that space flight is a RISK, because even the (eliminated at one time) pressure suits and the (removed) ejection seats may not be enough, and cannot possibly operate in many phases of the flight.

317 Macker  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:40:17pm

re: #311 loflyer

What the frak (correct spelling in the new series) took you so long!

318 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:40:22pm

re: #306 kuchuklambat

yea, you know, mohammed, kaffirs, war against, dar al harb? a hot part of that border in the balkans, stayed put longer than most. Might have something to do with the situation? who was it this prick was slaughtering? lutheran males?

thanks for gary coleman visual tho.

It was basically a civil war with multiple entities seceding from Yugoslavia in succession.

/you might want to go back and review the history of the conflicts

319 lifeofthemind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:41:31pm

re: #282 tradewind

With a few exceptions, the Holocaust and WWII being the most notable(and morally imperative, as well as strategically necessary), we** have been fairly selective about the injustices and genocides that we step in to rectify. I'm not necessarily saying this is always a bad modus operandi.
**The West, as well as America

We went to great lengths to demonstrate that we were not fighting WW-II to stop the Holocaust. We new where Auschwitz - Birkenau was, we flew over it to bomb factories. The call for punishment for the exterminations came after the camps were liberated. During the war there was far more agitation over the bombing of Rotterdam.

320 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:41:43pm

re: #304 medaura18586
mmm demonize like projecting seething pleasure on someone? is that what demon does, feels seething pleasure when demonizing someone? not sure.

indeed, if what i was saying about the history of jihad were lies, then it would be libel indeed.
but if you check the evidence and it's true then you can feel sick to your stomach indeed.
No, I am in favor of humans, and against slaughtering them. War sucks. Soviets in their push to Berlin in WWII committed unspeakable atrocities -- rape, murder of civilians, what have you all of it approved and whipped up by their propaganda machine. It all sucks.

321 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:42:10pm

re: #313 Dr. Shalit

"O-L-T" -

And with the possible exception of the TIBETANS - because of their High Profile Western Friends - The HAN Chinese will TAKE NO POOP! Rather be an "N-Word" than a Uigher in China.

-S-

The Uigher are in double-deep shit.

The Chinese want no break-away states.

The Chinese will brook no Islamist "issues".

The Chinese abuse the Tibetans at will. They would crush the Uighers.

322 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:42:16pm

re: #316 OldLineTexan

Ejection during low- earth orbital decay?
No thanks.

323 razorbacker  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:43:27pm

re: #303 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

These intranet tubes be a wonderous thang. The minus one club.

324 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:44:18pm

re: #310 Bobibutu

Heady days for those who saw the possibilities.

"Bobbity" -

I SAW the possibilities in the 1960's - Just couldn't believe the possibilities could be achieved in my lifetime - MY BAD!

-S-

325 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:44:23pm

re: #316 OldLineTexan

Ya know, you are consistently one of the smarter and funnier posters at LGF (no offense anyone, SHUT UP!). summovabitch! Whodathought you were a NASA nerd! YOU ROCK!

326 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:45:01pm

re: #318 Killian Bundy

so members of which entity was he slaughtering? what's the history of the conflict of his people with that entity?

327 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:45:13pm

re: #322 Capitalist Tool

Ejection during low- earth orbital decay?
No thanks.

Yes, therefore the last sentence. Of course, if you do not turn into a meteor during re-entry, you try to hang on until you achieve stable flight at a safe altitude. If you crack up completely before that phase (last accident), nothing is going to work.

Now and then, if you strap your ass onto a few million pounds of thrust, you have already rolled the dice. Astronauts and cosmonauts and other-nauts, male and female, are a breed apart.

328 lifeofthemind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:45:40pm

re: #296 Capitalist Tool

That would kinda through the Middle East for a loop.
Put 'em all in one big sandpile.

How does that scare the Chinese?

Because China is an artificial construct with a fundamentally illegitimate government. It is cobbled together with a host of unhappy minority regions that would love to break off. Sinkiang with the Uigers, Taiwan and Tibet to start. The sanctity of inherited imperial borders is an absolute for them.

329 LoFlyer  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:46:24pm

re: #316 OldLineTexan

Virgin will go nowhere useful.

NASA of the sixties is never coming back; NASA has been a political football since Richard Nixon.

The shuttle is not capable of being modified for any "realistic provision of crew escape in an emergency", if you have more than two crew with ejection seats and pressure suits on the flight deck. After the Challenger accident, I worked with JSC Structures and Mechanics Division on a host of proposals. I can tell you with personal knowledge that space flight is a RISK, because even the (eliminated at one time) pressure suits and the (removed) ejection seats may not be enough, and cannot possibly operate in many phases of the flight.

I agree one hundred percent! For long range economical ascent to orbit. I am a believer in AC Clark's "space elevator".....

330 yochanan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:47:02pm

re: #319 lifeofthemind

We went to great lengths to demonstrate that we were not fighting WW-II to stop the Holocaust. We new where Auschwitz - Birkenau was, we flew over it to bomb factories. The call for punishment for the exterminations came after the camps were liberated. During the war there was far more agitation over the bombing of Rotterdam.

VERY TRUE.

331 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:47:05pm

re: #323 razorbacker

These intranet tubes be a wonderous thang. The minus one club.

Damn. Really?

332 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:47:24pm

re: #325 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dude, there were herds of nerds. I was am but one nerd.

333 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:47:40pm

re: #301 CapeCoddah

Heh.... run one of them for prez..... that's how we shed ourselves of AlGore.
Course, we did have the decency to refuse to let him carry the state and win the damn thing.....but it worked to get him out of the Senate.

334 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:48:24pm

re: #329 LoFlyer

I agree one hundred percent! For long range economical ascent to orbit. I am a believer in AC Clark's "space elevator".....

I would love to see it. I want a "space gun", too.

335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:49:37pm

re: #332 OldLineTexan

Dude, there were herds of nerds. I was am but one nerd.

Yeah. But, understand. Born in 1962. No greater heros than NASA types. Brand new respect flying your way from me. If you've mentioned this before I didn't know.

I AM SO GEEKED OUT RIGHT NOW!

336 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:49:51pm

re: #321 OldLineTexan

"O-L-T" -

"They would crush the Uighers." - AND I suspect they shall - It will get the attention of their OIL SUPPLIERS in a way the Chinese, and THOSE MUSLIM STATES understand, as did LBJ - something like - GONADS IN A VISE, etc., etc., etc.

-S-

337 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:50:22pm

re: #315 Jim in Virginia

Oh, barf.....
' Yes We Kaine'?
They're beatin' that to death, aren't they?

338 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:50:52pm

re: #336 Dr. Shalit

"O-L-T" -

"They would crush the Uighers." - AND I suspect they shall - It will get the attention of their OIL SUPPLIERS in a way the Chinese, and THOSE MUSLIM STATES understand, as did LBJ - something like - GONADS IN A VISE, etc., etc., etc.

-S-

Any disincentive scenarios?

339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:51:32pm

re: #336 Dr. Shalit

I'd kind of like it if the US, China, and India...all three discovered their own inexhaustable oil supply.

LET THEM EAT SAND!

Is that bitter?

340 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:52:21pm

re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, and the Brits.

341 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:52:27pm

re: #329 LoFlyer

I agree one hundred percent! For long range economical ascent to orbit. I am a believer in AC Clark's "space elevator".....

Let's ground launch an Orion.....
Where would be a good place to launch from?

//

342 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:53:10pm

re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not at all.
Then the next time the Islamonuts attack, we could pave paradise and put up a parking lot.

343 lifeofthemind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:54:07pm

re: #313 Dr. Shalit

re: #321 OldLineTexan

Vigorous nods.

344 Jim in Virginia  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:54:10pm

re: #334 OldLineTexan

I would love to see it. I want a "space gun", too.


Would you settle for a railgun?

I am a very small cog in this project. Way cool.

345 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:54:13pm

re: #320 kuchuklambat


No: YOU suck...

Where's this evidence again?

You demonize Muslims by connecting every problem in this world, whether warranted or not, to your favorite villain group: the Muslims.

You're obviously an ignorant ass who never bothered to learn anything about the conflicts you are passing judgment on. All you care for is to exploit them by paining them in idiotic Islam=bad, Christianity=good simpleton colors, so you can feel like a righteous Crusader upon identifying the bad guys, who of course must be Muslim.

If you cannot imagine that a region's history (stretching back for almost 3000 years btw) has more to it than the caricaturization of a religious dichotomy you attribute absolute importance to, then you are f-ed in the brain!

346 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:54:19pm

re: #326 kuchuklambat

so members of which entity was he slaughtering? what's the history of the conflict of his people with that entity?

In Croatia? Non-Serb Croatians.

/the breakup of Yugoslavia can't be reduced down to Christians versus Muslims

347 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:57:07pm

re: #344 Jim in Virginia

Would you settle for a railgun?

I am a very small cog in this project. Way cool.

Do you know anything about the EMALS for CVN-78, (rail gun catapult).

348 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:57:30pm

re: #346 Killian Bundy

Let's not forget the Slevenes. They didn't get away without a 10-day-war...

And let's not forget the Catholic minority of Kosovar Albanians, who were treated no better than the "soldiers of Al-Islam"...

349 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:58:01pm

re: #345 medaura18586

I prefer that we don't tell each other things like "we suck". Disagreement can be done politely. But, who am I to tell you this.

Just saying.

Screw it. Going to eat.

350 tradewind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:59:03pm

re: #345 medaura18586

Islam might have had a glorious and amazing history, but somewhere around the 7th century, it decided modernity be damned....(literally)...., we're all about medieval, and we're not moving off this point in time.

351 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 6:59:48pm

re: #338 Capitalist Tool

Any disincentive scenarios?

"C-T" -

AS TO THE CHINESE? NAME ONE! - The Chinese tolerate MUSLIMS that can Deliver OIL. Others can pee up a rope as far as the Han Chinese are concerned. I PITY the Gulf Muslims if the US were to decline. The US Navy would be replaced by either the (HINDU) Indian Navy, or the Chinese Navy. Either of the two would take NO POOP and do what the US or UK(Royal) Navy SHOULD HAVE DONE.

-S-

352 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:00:55pm

re: #341 jcm

Let's ground launch an Orion.....
Where would be a good place to launch from?

//


Let's see; hmmm someplace with a lot of sterile land (no oceanic spot large enough for facilities and fabrication buildings), miles and miles of emptiness, close to the equator, lots of locally available petrochemicals.

Gee I don't know can YOU think of someplace?

353 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:01:06pm

re: #351 Dr. Shalit

I dinged that up really hard...but I'll bet it'll just show as a ding up.

354 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:02:43pm

re: #348 medaura18586

Let's not forget the Slevenes. They didn't get away without a 10-day-war...

And let's not forget the Catholic minority of Kosovar Albanians, who were treated no better than the "soldiers of Al-Islam"...

/that said, there's not a whole lot of historical love lost between predominately Muslim Albania and predominately Christian Serbia, both sides operate(d) unlawful paramilitaries in Kosovo

355 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:04:23pm

re: #348 medaura18586

I remember days after the embassy burning, some Serbs attacked Croatian shops, and someone here asked why the Serbs would attack fellow Christians.

Duh! Because they're not Serbs- that's how ethnic nationalism works. This seems to be a point some people forget.

356 jcm  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:05:39pm

re: #352 jcw46

Let's see; hmmm someplace with a lot of sterile land (no oceanic spot large enough for facilities and fabrication buildings), miles and miles of emptiness, close to the equator, lots of locally available petrochemicals.

Gee I don't know can YOU think of someplace?

Nope, nothing comes to mind as a mecca for Orion launches, how 'bout you?

357 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:07:44pm

re: #344 Jim in Virginia

Would you settle for a railgun?

I am a very small cog in this project. Way cool.

You go, man. I like that one, too. It got passed all over the e-mail at my job. I worked in space, and my boss worked in artillery...

358 lifeofthemind  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:07:49pm

re: #351 Dr. Shalit

"C-T" -

AS TO THE CHINESE? NAME ONE! - The Chinese tolerate MUSLIMS that can Deliver OIL. Others can pee up a rope as far as the Han Chinese are concerned. I PITY the Gulf Muslims if the US were to decline. The US Navy would be replaced by either the (HINDU) Indian Navy, or the Chinese Navy. Either of the two would take NO POOP and do what the US or UK(Royal) Navy SHOULD HAVE DONE.

-S-

Important point. Third World groups, like the rich and powerful in the Middle East and South Asia, do not support the US (often secretly) because of their love for either Jacksonian Democracy or Hamiltonian Commerce. They tolerate the boorish Americans because the closer alternatives are far more dangerous. In the long run the contact with American culture is toxic to the local culture that the elites feed off of it. Osama saw that and declared war on the US and the regimes that admitted us.

359 Jim in Virginia  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:10:44pm

re: #347 jcm

Do you know anything about the EMALS for CVN-78, (rail gun catapult).

First I've heard but it doesn't surprise me. We're going to see some amazing technology in the next twenty years. What sort of things are the Army/ Navy/ Lawrence Livermore working on that we haven't heard about?

360 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:10:47pm

re: #345 medaura18586

Well it is true that not ALL muslims are terrorists. However with the Irish troubles cooled for awhile, it can be said that ALL terrorists are muslims.

It can also be said that Islam has attempted many times to subjugate the rest of the world, that it has major sections of it's guiding philosphy/religious writings that DEMAND that ALL muslims must violently subdue infidel nations and either convert them or destroy them.

The major muslim geographical areas have tried for empire quite a few times and sometimes have succeeded to the area's people's regret. (the Jews being the most obvious)

so it's not so far of stretch to be a LITTLE paranoid about muslim folks from countries that have recently declared AMERICA as the Great Satan and should be destroyed.

I mean you do understand why we might have some concern?

361 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:11:32pm

re: #354 Killian Bundy

/that said, there's not a whole lot of historical love lost between predominately Muslim Albania and predominately Christian Serbia, both sides operate(d) unlawful paramilitaries in Kosovo

Albania did not operate anything in Kosovo. The province was annexed by Serbia in 1912 and Albania has not had any de facto or de juro administrative powers in Kosovo at all.

There was the KLA, but it originated from the native Albanians of Kosovo, and not from Albania proper. Not only was it illegal, but it was considered a terrorist organization because it fought the Serbian government.

Serbia's actions, including the deployment of troops and whatever atrocities they may have committed, were lawful under Serbia's jurisdiction.

Also, Albania is not a Muslim country.

362 yochanan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:13:00pm

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

GOTOVINA a croata general was also arrested for war crimes.

363 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:17:49pm

re: #355 Sharmuta


I remember days after the embassy burning, some Serbs attacked Croatian shops, and someone here asked why the Serbs would attack fellow Christians.

Duh! Because they're not Serbs- that's how ethnic nationalism works. This seems to be a point some people forget.

I also seem to remember some Lizards voicing approval for (cheering, even) the attack on the U.S. embassy. Moral equivalence is not strictly a leftist disease.

364 yochanan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:17:57pm

re: #361 medaura18586

Albania did not operate anything in Kosovo. The province was annexed by Serbia in 1912 and Albania has not had any de facto or de juro administrative powers in Kosovo at all.

There was the KLA, but it originated from the native Albanians of Kosovo, and not from Albania proper. Not only was it illegal, but it was considered a terrorist organization because it fought the Serbian government.

Serbia's actions, including the deployment of troops and whatever atrocities they may have committed, were lawful under Serbia's jurisdiction.

Also, Albania is not a Muslim country.

AS I UNDERSTAND IT Albanians are muslim but most fellow sufi islam and are moderate and the country of albania doesn't fellow sharia

365 Bobibutu  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:18:53pm

re: #324 Dr. Shalit

"Bobbity" -

I SAW the possibilities in the 1960's - Just couldn't believe the possibilities could be achieved in my lifetime - MY BAD!

-S-

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger ...

366 yochanan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:21:28pm

islamists are active in bosnia, macadonia and kosavah if i remember right islamist terrorists were involved in the bosnian civil war including the beheading of captured serbs.

367 yochanan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:23:04pm

my opinion is that there were bloody hands on all three sides not just the serbs.
for example;
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

368 yochanan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:25:45pm

bosnian muslim war crimes
[Link: balkanalysis.blogspot.com...]

369 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:25:54pm

re: #361 medaura18586

There was the KLA, but it originated from the native Albanians of Kosovo, and not from Albania proper. Not only was it illegal, but it was considered a terrorist organization because it fought the Serbian government.

And who supplied(s) the KLA? You did notice, of course, that when Kosovo declared its independence, the celebrants that took to the streets were waving Albanian, not Kosovar, flags.

Also, Albania is not a Muslim country.

I said predominately Muslim (Muslim 70%, Albanian Orthodox 20%, Roman Catholic 10%}.

/the animosity goes way back

370 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:31:45pm

re: #365 Bobibutu

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger ...

"Bobbity" -

Generally more like TONTO on this subject.

-S-

371 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:33:26pm

re: #360 jcw46

Well it is true that not ALL muslims are terrorists. However with the Irish troubles cooled for awhile, it can be said that ALL terrorists are Muslims.

Not so. Most terrorists (not all) are Muslim. You forgot the hostages rescued in Colombia? Those commie terrorists? You have radical environmentalists organizing terrorist attacks also. And you had state-executed terrorism, in its most literal sense of the word, in Serbia.

It can also be said that Islam has attempted many times to subjugate the rest of the world, that it has major sections of it's guiding philosphy/religious writings that DEMAND that ALL muslims must violently subdue infidel nations and either convert them or destroy them.

Islam is an abstract concept and as such it has carried out nothing. People are the ones carrying out actions, and yes, it can be said, that many people during various periods of time, including our time, have committed unspeakable atrocities in the name of the teachings of Islam, and they demand that all self-styled Muslims follow their dictate.

So what? All branches of Christianity (some more fundamentalist and radical than others) claim to be the "true" application of the teachings of Christ. That doesn't mean all other sects follow, since we still have so many splinters of Christianity co-existing.

It's about how literally does a self-declared Muslim follow the teachings of the Koran, or the drivel of radical clerics, and what kind of importance s/he attaches to his/her Muslimhood in his/her everyday life and community.

In any case, one does not need to rely on statistical implications of the "not most Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims" to figure out what's going on here. Instead of relying on such "odds" as heuristic, you can learn about the actual history of the conflict, and if you did, you would find out that religion has got nothing to do with it.

The major muslim geographical areas have tried for empire quite a few times and sometimes have succeeded to the area's people's regret. (the Jews being the most obvious)

True true, but the British have also engaged in some massive-ass empire building, the Spanish have spread Christianity by the sword, and Jews have historically suffered more in the hands of Christians than of the Muslims. Am I trying to say that Christians are evil here, or by any means, worse than Muslims? Not a chance. Rather, just to illustrate that one nation/sect's Christianness does not make them the 'good guys' automatically, as the other way around goes for Muslims.

so it's not so far of stretch to be a LITTLE paranoid about muslim folks from countries that have recently declared AMERICA as the Great Satan and should be destroyed.

I mean you do understand why we might have some concern?

Which Muslims folks from which countries are you referring to? So much for the Great Satan: Albanians greeted Bush last year as "messenger of God", Canadian Albanians wove American flags in Toronto (very unCanadian behavior btw) to celebrate Kosovo's independence, and Kosovo itself is dotted with US flags, even in mosques. See:

Youtube Video

372 sparrowlake  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:34:17pm

re: #345 medaura18586

No: YOU suck...
Where's this evidence again?
You demonize Muslims by connecting every problem in this world, whether warranted or not, to your favorite villain group: the Muslims.
You're obviously an ignorant ass who never bothered to learn anything about the conflicts you are passing judgment on. All you care for is to exploit them by paining them in idiotic Islam=bad, Christianity=good simpleton colors, so you can feel like a righteous Crusader upon identifying the bad guys, who of course must be Muslim.
If you cannot imagine that a region's history (stretching back for almost 3000 years btw) has more to it than the caricaturization of a religious dichotomy you attribute absolute importance to, then you are f-ed in the brain!

Arguments are more persuasive when one resists rising to the partisan bait and descending into emotional insults. There is plenty of blame to go around in the Balkans, and that applies to both sides. War crimes have been committed on both sides, and there are plenty of hidden agendas and ulterior motives to go around and around forever and a day.
And do not forget that at LGF the primary enemy is
Islamofascism, which naturally and properly translates into a healthy suspicion of Muslim zealotry wherever it rears its ugly head. Having said that, Karadzic and his Serbian ilk are the ones who are now being hunted down and tried as war criminals, so I would have thought that would have largely vindicated the current Balkan Muslim position.

373 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:37:12pm

Kosovo Independence Day in Prishtina.

/not a Kosovar flag anywhere in sight

374 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:37:48pm

re: #364 yochanan

AS I UNDERSTAND IT Albanians are muslim but most fellow sufi islam and are moderate and the country of albania doesn't fellow sharia

Albania used to be more hard-core Muslim before Communism, even so, still mostly Sufi and moderates. If anything, it was the only country occupied by axis forces which had more Jews after WW2 than before. Not a single Jew was turned in. A single family was turned in, but as partisans, not as Jews (they also happened to be Jewish).

During Communism, all forms of religious expression (Christian, Muslim, Jewish) were outlawed, and today Albanians are mostly atheistic. Before WW2 the stats were: 70% Muslim, 20% Orthodox Christian, 10% Cartholic. Today hardly anyone is religious.

Not even when Islam was more popular was the country ever ruled by Islamic law. It had always been a secular country, politically.

375 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:45:52pm

re: #369 Killian Bundy

I said predominately Muslim (Muslim 70%, Albanian Orthodox 20%, Roman Catholic 10%}.

/the animosity goes way back

The animosity does go a way back, but not to The Battle Of Kosovo. Back then Albanians were mostly Catholic (some Orthodox, but no Muslims yet), and were in a coalition with the Serbs and the Bulgarians to confront the Ottoman invasion. The person who ended up reaching the Sultan's tent and killing him was Albanian. The battle was lost nevertheless.

Albania played deaf/dumb about the KLA, but didn't stop its territory for being used for arms trafficking to the KLA, nor do I think it should have, since the KLA was defending ordinary Albanian civilians from annihilation. Volunteer donations, mob money, and even Saudi money was used by the KLA. The Saudis wanted to contribute more than money of course. They wanted to bring in their mujahadeen, to turn it into jihad for propaganda and infiltration purposes, but the KLA leadership only took the money, not any unsolicited "help" with troops/strategy.

It was pretty far sighted of them...

376 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:49:18pm

re: #369 Killian Bundy

Also, the Kosovars are not a separate ethnicity/nationality from Albanians in Albania proper, so no wonder they were waving Albanian flags. There was no such thing as a Kosovar flag until they pulled one out of their asses now, because as a separate country they couldn't use the Albanian flag.

They were Albanians whose lands were left out of Albania proper in 1912 when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, Albania declared its independence, but Serbia quickly moved in and annexed Kosovo.

377 yochanan  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:50:52pm

re: #373 Killian Bundy

look at the comments and you can be sure there is no love loss between the different balkin groups.

378 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:59:23pm

re: #372 sparrowlake

Arguments are more persuasive when one resists rising to the partisan bait and descending into emotional insults. There is plenty of blame to go around in the Balkans, and that applies to both sides. War crimes have been committed on both sides, and there are plenty of hidden agendas and ulterior motives to go around and around forever and a day.
And do not forget that at LGF the primary enemy is
Islamofascism, which naturally and properly translates into a healthy suspicion of Muslim zealotry wherever it rears its ugly head. Having said that, Karadzic and his Serbian ilk are the ones who are now being hunted down and tried as war criminals, so I would have thought that would have largely vindicated the current Balkan Muslim position.

Partisan bait? What are you talking about?

Plenty of blame to go around in the Balkans?

I am not saying any side were angles, but Serbia and Albania/Kosovo are no more morally equivalent than "Palestine" and Israel are today.

Whenever I hear about the "plenty of blame going around" but no specific accounts being given, I take it that the person speaking doesn't know the basics of the conflict, and tries to wrap it all up as "ancient hatreds" or "a pox on all their houses". That's bull as far as I am concerned.

There are no "both sides" because the Serbs did not fight just against the Kosovars, or the Bosniacs, but also against the Croats and the Slovenes, so each of those nations has had different responses to Serbian aggression, responses which you cannot boil all in the same pot of "both sides committing war crimes".

Do you know what war crimes are, by definition, and who committed what?

I can tell you (try to challenge that account anywhere if you can) that Albania has never attacked its neighbors: not Greece, not Macedonia, not Serbia. It was Serbia who annexed by force Kosovo in 1912, against the wishes of its mostly Albanian population, which it has tried to ethnically cleanse ever since. When have Albanians ever been in a position to do the same to Serbs?

So it's not as morally equivalent as you'd like.

Also, I didn't know LGF was a Muslim-hatred/"suspicion" central. I thought it was the personal blog of one Charles Johnson, who likes to post about topics as diverse as evolution, elections, WOT, Islamism, music, photography, biking, and programming, with an emphasis on unmasking idiotarians of all stripes and colors.

I find your reasoning that "this is the place to bash Muslims" pretty bigoted.

379 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 7:59:57pm

re: #372 sparrowlake

No- LGF's primary focus is anti-idiotarian.

380 sparrowlake  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 8:38:15pm

re: #378 medaura18586

The Americans did what they thought was right in stopping the Serbs, and now rounding up their leaders and trying them as war criminals - and if that is not good enough for Balkan Muslims then that is just too damn bad. The concern of many here at LGF is that Balkan Muslim nations will serve as bases for the spread of Islamofascism across Europe. That is not Muslim-bashing, that is a real concern based on the words and actions of Muslim zealots around the world. I for one am sick and tired of the endless stream of fingerpointing and invective from Muslim zealots who seem incapable of letting go of their feigned victimhood even in the face of substantial Western financial and military support and endless efforts to accomodate them.

381 sparrowlake  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 8:44:55pm

re: #379 Sharmuta

No- LGF's primary focus is anti-idiotarian.

Islamofascism, anti-Semitism and religious zealotry in general are the primary threats so far as I am concerned. There is no better place than LGF for me to discuss and keep up to date on these issues.

382 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 8:54:11pm

re: #381 sparrowlake

But that's not what you said in #372- you limited this blog to islamofascism, while I was trying to be more broad. I think it's clear that Charles covers a wide range of topics, and I believe there is an anti-idiotarian theme to them all. Well- except the cycling and music threads. I just felt you were being to narrow in what it is you posted as being LGF's primary enemy.

383 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 9:05:22pm

re: #371 medaura18586

Not so. Most terrorists (not all) are Muslim

Oh I'm sorry. You're right, only 99.9999999999% of terrorists acts committed in the last OHH 10 years were committed by self-named islamic jihadists.

When was the last time FARC flew some airplanes into some buildings or blew themselves up amongst a bunch of men, women and children going about their innocent business?

ISLAM APPEARS TO BE A CULT OF DEATH!
Face it. Change it. (we all would love to hear some of These "moderate" muslims we're always hearing about hold a worldwide symposium or synod to discuss the changes necessary in Islamic law and belief that would be more in line with the peace loving people in the rest of the world).

Awaiting an answer from you that contains some admission that Islam, today - now, is a threat and that you agree some changes need to be made rather than apologizing for the acts of madmen in the name of their g!d.
HMMMM?

384 Sharmuta  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 9:26:15pm

re: #383 jcw46

Where has medaura done that? Apologized for "acts of madmen in the name of their g!d"? She hasn't- but if you re-read this thread there are plenty of people making apologies for Serbian nationalists committing atrocities and acts of war!

385 Colonel Panik  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 9:33:44pm

"Religion of Peace": Muslim Son of Immigrants Disfigures Jewish Model's Face, Ends Her Career


Samir Dervisevic--son of Muslim immigrants from the former Yugoslavia--who has a problem with women and has now been arrested and charged twice for violent attacks on women.

His attack on Jewish model, Liskula Cohen, left her face forever disfigured and her once-thriving modeling career down the tubes. Would you want this guy working as your doorman?

And this story is another case of "Guess the Religion." His religion is not mentioned, nor is hers. But look at the photos. She wears a Jewish Star/Star of David.

386 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 9:36:41pm

re: #380 sparrowlake

Aren't you special... Are you accusing me of being a Muslim now?

Which are these Muslim nations in the Balkans? I don't know them.

The Balkans nations whose overriding attribute you perceive to be Islam, are very grateful to the USA. It was the Christian Serbs who attacked US embassies, while the "muslim nations" are waving and kissing US flags.

It is your friends here who are saying that this mass murderer is a hero, and condemning that has got nothing to do with "muslims complaining to get further accomodations".

I for one am a staunch atheist, my father is an Orthodox Christian, and my mother is a Jew. And we have not been living as dhimmis in Albania for countless generations.

re: #381 sparrowlake

Islamofascism, anti-Semitism and religious zealotry in general are the primary threats so far as I am concerned. There is no better place than LGF for me to discuss and keep up to date on these issues.

The only things you are keeping up to date with are reinforcments of your own biases and bigotry.

387 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 9:44:41pm

re: #383 jcw46

Screw you!

What apologies! If it were up to me, I'd rather everyone just abandoned their religion, whatever it might be, as I don't think it provides anything of value and it largely constitutes dogma.

Christianity has been just as socio-culturally gangrenous to ignorant peasants of Europe. Arab countries, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc, had had their clocks frozen since the Dark Ages and are finding themselves living in a modern world.

What does any of that have to do with the fact that Karadizc was a mass murderer and Serbia's leadership, with popular support, has embarked upon one destructive unequivocal butchering campaign after the other, often directed against Christian nations?

Sounds like all the synapses in your brain are invariantly wired around Islam. Even when it doesn't have anything to do with a world problem, you have to somehow connect dots around it anyway.

One generation ago you would have probably been an anti-Semite; today you're an anti-Muslim bigot!

388 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 9:48:55pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

So- now were making excuses for burning our embassy?!

they were being sarcastic.

389 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 10:32:04pm

re: #387 medaura18586

aa Muslims are the new Joos, where have I heard that before. And an "all religion evil" tu quoque without Deuteronomy quotes?
Just to clarify -- I was suggesting a natural selection of sorts, where under the pressure of jihad mostly homicidal pricks like Karadzic or Vlad the Impaler survive. Hardly an apologia for them.
Of course there are tribal/ethnic conflicts in Balkans, in Chechen/Ingush/Ossetia, in Somalia, in southern Thailand etc. But there is that something else too that keeps the nastiness going.
Woops I think I might catch another ad homini although if a prize were given to the recipient of a strongest ad homini I think I own the one for today.
/pure seething satisfaction

390 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 10:58:53pm

re: #387 medaura18586
re: #345 medaura18586
re: #361 medaura18586

Apology accepted. I know you're apologizing in your head so I'll go ahead and be like you and jump to a conclusion that is based on my ability to read your mind like you think you can read mine.

I'm guessing your dhimmi hood is not many generations ago more like only 1 and if being concerned about Islam, Jihadists, Sharia law and other insanities is anti-muslim then you're correct I'm anti death-cult muslims and all their apologists whether they claim to be atheists or jews or whatever.

btw: my posts were NOT to apologize for WHAT the serbs did; I was pointing out the justification THEY thought they had for their attitude and saying they attacked others or attacked our embassy is just an attempt to confuse the issue.

Right now in this century the true threat to (relative) world peace comes from Islam taught zealots. Islam itself whether as represented by Islamic nations or Imams has shown itself unwilling to condemn these zealot's claims to legitimacy and declare them haram. Why is this? What possible reason could supposed religious people have to refrain from speaking out against atrocity and insanity? Particularly when these acts are perpetrated by those who claim a mantle of righteousness derived from the Koran.

After 7 years and after WE have shown that we condemn any and all that murder and enslave no matter their religion or nationality we can only assume that Muslims are silent on the subject because they are:

1. afraid. This would say a lot about the power of muslim extremism.
2. they secretly agree with what is being done. (Highest probability)

I do know that anyone showing any concern about Muslim extremism is immediately attacked and accused of bigotry (just like you did). Anyone showing, what any sane person would under the circumstances, concern about the violence and degradation that is prevalent in dominantly Islam countries is accused of ... (wait for it) racism.
That is what we hear from the "moderate" muslim. We have been attacked and we identify the group most likely to continue to attack us and lo and behold --- We're islamaphobics and get invective hurled at us.

Removing those Muslims who are extremists/jihadist/terrorist is something that should be done but we can't do that by ourselves, the Moderate Muslims must help (isn't our restraint amazing for such a murderous bunch of bigoted Christians).
What Muslims should be truly afraid of is that the people of the world awaken to the fact that a small group of self-righteous murderous zealots are being nurtured by the "Religion of Peace" and when that happens then there might be a "Crusade" (another loaded word used by Muslim apologists to evoke a so called victimization from the past even though the MUSLIMS acted first and were attempting to DESTROY THE INFIDEL {what a shocka}). That would truly be a disaster but if the Muslims won't fix the problem on their own then people are going to defend themselves anyway they can.

So until then please continue your smoke-blowing and name-calling and assuming things not in evidence whilst those of us who can tell that which is true Evil from that which is just a difference of opinion will continue to be very wary of those who profess to follow Islam as TRUE way to worship G!D (or they'll kill you).

P.S. I love how you threw in "anti-semite" at the end there, covering all your bases and attempting to gain cover by pretending to be persecuted by the CCHHRISSTIANS! Yeah, Christianity and religion are the problem. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA What a maroon! See Ya!

391 jcw46  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 11:02:14pm

re: #389 kuchuklambat


NO me me, I want the worst attack.

Look out! ad homini incoming!

392 kuchuklambat  Thu, Jul 31, 2008 11:09:37pm

re: #391 jcw46
better luck next time.
Most you got was a garden variety "bigot".
I got a range from ass to f*d in the brain.
Reminded me of physics colloquia I used to attend.
All may be true but irrelevant to whether my point was true or false.
Anyway, I got warm fuzzies, good night.

393 yochanan  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 3:51:40am

re: #385 Colonel Panik

all this muslim bigot got was 1 month for the assult which ruined this womans life and livelyhood and you will note after this attack he did another one.

i do worry about muslim's going on personal jihad as i live way to close to them.

394 yochanan  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 3:54:36am

re: #384 Sharmuta

i did not appoligize for them I did prove that all three groups have people who are guilty of the same type of crimes, and that the past history of croat and bosnian genocide does effect how the serbs see them.

395 sparrowlake  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 4:24:44am

re: #386 medaura18586

If you choose to treat my position against Islamofascism and its apologists as a personal attack against ou, then that is up to you - if the shoe fits, wear it. I did not and do not accuse you of being a Muslim or anything other than a petulant little person who looks for a personal slight in every comment. And your personal accusations of bias and bigotry are to me a You seem to have diffriculty with that, and your self-identification as a "confirmed" atheist or the daughter of a Jew does not give you a licence to act like a mean little snot-nosed troll.

396 sparrowlake  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 4:27:52am

PIMF

re: #386 medaura18586

If you choose to treat my position against Islamofascism and its apologists as a personal attack against ou, then that is up to you - if the shoe fits, wear it. I did not and do not accuse you of being a Muslim or anything other than a petulant little person who looks for a personal slight in every comment. And your personal accusations of bias and bigotry are to me a classic case of projection. You seem to have difficulty with that, and your self-identification as a "confirmed" atheist or the daughter of a Jew does not give you a licence to act like a mean little snot-nosed troll.

397 A.W.  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 5:56:39am

mmm, yeah, great. international justice. So he will wait over 10 years for a trial, die in prison before the trial occurs. And even if the Hague can get its hands out of its collective keiseter long enough to convict the bastard, all it will do then is keep him in prison when clearly this behavior deserves death.

And the euroweenies wonder why we don't want their help in the war on terror?

398 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 7:21:12am

re: #390 jcw46

re: #389 kuchuklambat

You both tripping?

First off, who appointed you spokesperson for the Serbs' justifications for genocide? Being born and raised one border away from Serbia, my parents, grandparents, and their parents (none Muslim) having faced constant historic existential threats from Serbia since 1912 at the very latest, I am damn familiar with their justifications for their own atrocities, which by the way, you don't know the first thing about. They don't truly have to do with Islam: that's the part of the story they tell Crusaders like you, so you would sympathize with their cause. It's just for PR/propaganda purposes. The fact that Serbia has not left a single one of its neighbors unattached (with the possible exception of Macedonia, which snack away from Yugoslavia while Milo's hands were too busy) irrespective of their prevailing religions, should tell you that Serbs ought to have more more mind-bobbling excuses for their country's aggressive behavior, aside from "Us poor suffering Serbs, how bad we had it under the Ottomans".

Not once have you addressed the fact that Slovenia and Croatia's demographics are thoroughly Christian, and the treatment they received from Serbia was not qualitatively any better.

Nor have you tried to account for the fact that the Catholic minority in Kosovo (your beloved "Muslim nation") was treated no better than the Muslims, and that it actually sided with the Muslims against the Christian Orthodox Serbs.

You screech about me advocating the reformation of Islam, yet when it has happened, you turn a blind eye to it, and it has happened right in Kosovo, without any prompting from me, you, or anyone else:

[Link: www.michaeltotten.com...]

[Link: www.standpointmag.co.uk...]

Yet you still want to paint all 1.5 self-styled Muslims in the world, including these ones, with either the all terrorist, or the all terrorist-sympathizing broad brush.

Not only that, but you implcitly paint the entire population of Kosovo, a mix of atheists/agnostics/non-religious-people, Muslims, and Catholics, with the Jihadist broad brush. Anything I were to tell you, to explain how most of their population is not even made up of practicing Muslims, you would ignore, because you want them all to be Muslims, hence demonizable Jihadists, hence this amorphous Other you can hate, because you love hating for its own sake.

And no, I didn't say all religions are evil, so drop the straw man. I said I do not favor any religion, much less Islam, so enough with your paranoid constructions of me being an apologist for Radical Islam. Any religion has been sufficiently destructive on any uneducated backward populations. And Islamism and Islam are not the same thing, Radical Islamists and Muslims are not one and the same.

...

Just to clarify -- I was suggesting a natural selection of sorts, where under the pressure of jihad mostly homicidal pricks like Karadzic or Vlad the Impaler survive. Hardly an apologia for them.

Well look who's spouting off about natural selection here. Evolution! It's not their fault; it's their environment's. Do you even know the first thing about the wars of the Balkans, other than, there are some Muslims and some Serbs involved? Hardly any apologia? I see plenty of apologia....

399 jcw46  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 7:30:41am

re: #398 medaura18586
more trash-talk, assumptions and name-calling from, as sparrowlake said so well it should be said again:
re: #396 sparrowlake

If you choose to treat my position against Islamofascism and its apologists as a personal attack against you, then that is up to you - if the shoe fits, wear it. I did not and do not accuse you of being a Muslim or anything other than a petulant little person who looks for a personal slight in every comment. And your personal accusations of bias and bigotry are to me a classic case of projection. You seem to have difficulty with that, and your self-identification as a "confirmed" atheist or the daughter of a Jew does not give you a licence to act like a mean little snot-nosed troll.
400 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 7:30:59am
aa Muslims are the new Joos, where have I heard that before.

I don't know where you have heard of it before. I for one, just thought of it myself. The parallels are clear. There are plenty of fact-based instances to expose and dissect Radical Islam around the world. It's one of the things Charles does here. Making up stories to fit that narrative is not rational, ethical, or sane. Use what's real. There's plenty of it to go around. I find it irrational, this overriding phobia of Islam above all else. Yes, we all know its hot areas, problems, side-effects, and immanent threat its adherents pose to the US in particular, and Western Europe in general. There is so much to rationally criticize Islam for, that I had taken it for granted that there could be no such thing as Islamophobia,... until I encountered these Balkans threads, with the hysteria oozing from every direction, blatant Serbian propaganda being reproduced and presented as fact, and ignorant intellectually lazy trolls diving into the discussion with zero knowledge about it other than a reflexive "it's jihad!".

Ever since, I have been taking things with a grain of salt, because if people can go so ridiculously wrong on something I know for sure they have done so, they could be spouting off similar bigotry-motivated nonsense about other conflicts in the world, of which I know nothing first hand about.

My skepticism is honed and my bullshitometer well-calibrated... You just sent its reading through the roof...

401 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 7:32:03am

re: #399 jcw46

Conveniently neglect to address all points made and continue with ad hominems. You've already shown your true colors.

Blah blah blah blah....

402 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 7:55:40am

re: #350 tradewind

Islam might have had a glorious and amazing history, but somewhere around the 7th century, it decided modernity be damned....(literally)...., we're all about medieval, and we're not moving off this point in time.

I never thought it had a glorious or amazing history ever... Somewhere around the 7th century is when it was founded, so when could it have had this glorious amazing history before?

I find the Qu'ran to be despotic garbage overall, minus some nice but irrelevant fragments of poetry here and there, and anyone taking its teachings literally or even sufficiently seriously, is a savage. That said, I don't have much higher opinions of the Torah overall (minus the book of Jobe, which is great literature, and some other fragments) or of the New Testament, and I think anyone taking the Bible (Christian and/or Hebrew parts) literally, or even sufficiently seriously, is backward as can be.

The point is that Christianity has been infused with Classic Western Philosophy to mitigate some of its most problematic areas, and most Christians take most things in their holy book as a metaphor. Jews have adopted such moderate attitudes by osmosis.

Most Muslims even today still give a more literalist interpretation to their holy book. Islam missed a Reformation and a Renaissance of its own. So there has been no large scale watering down of the craziness spouted in the Quran.

That said, not all Muslim sects are the same, and not all Muslims within a sect display the same level of fundamentalism. Some are quite moderate, culturally and religiously tolerant, on the verge of apostasy as far as their fundamentalist counterparts are concerned.

To deny that, is insane.

403 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 8:41:10am

re: #402 medaura18586

That said, not all Muslim sects are the same, and not all Muslims within a sect display the same level of fundamentalism. Some are quite moderate, culturally and religiously tolerant, on the verge of apostasy as far as their fundamentalist counterparts are concerned.

Islam has it's own history of "civil wars" where the fundamentalists declare the moderates as apostates and heretics worthy of death. I've said before, and I'll say again- if the islamists were to ever succeed in turning the world into dar al-islam, jihad would still continue for the race for who can be the most islamic.

404 Charles  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 8:43:15am

re: #211 Maximu§

#141 Charles

Tens of thousands of non-Serbs were killed, hundreds of thousands were driven from their homes and thousands more .....

Thats called War Charles and I'd bet my next check that the Muslims started it. Your good website proves that everyday. Islam is the aggressor.

I'm no expert in that region, but I have a strong gut feeling the Serb's were doing to the non-Serb's (Muslims), exactly what the Muslims had in store for them. Its a brutal region with a brutal history.

Also, haven't we heard similar "Genocide" claims from the International World Court against Israel regarding the Palestinians?

So you know very little about the region, you dismiss the evidence of war crimes I posted, and then you proceed to make excuses for the mass murder?

Well, you can find somewhere else to post your comments. I'm disgusted by this ignorant excuse-making, and I don't want it at LGF.

405 Charles  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 9:18:23am

One more thing -- I am neither pro-Bosnian nor pro-Serbian. There's no doubt that both sides of that conflict committed crimes and murders.

There's ugliness on both sides, but the Serbian nationalists are NOT our friends, not even remotely. And the comments about "jihad" related to the Bosnian conflict I see above are simply ignorant. Learn some history, please.

406 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 9:42:45am

re: #405 Charles

You just watch how few up-dings that comment will get though...

407 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 10:53:18am

re: #58 HoosierHoops

It's still not fair to portray an entire people as pricks...whoever the serbs are..Let's stick to calling Canadians pricks or dutch people..
I'm sure you've probably had a bad experience with them..
But it just isn't fair...
/off soapbox
regards

Sure. Srebrenica was "a bad experience."

408 Charles  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 10:56:14am

I recommend that if you aren't familiar with the history and current situation in Bosnia-Serbia, etc., you spend some time reading Michael Totten's blog. Totten is no apologist for anybody's terrorism, and his pieces on the Bosnian Muslims are eye-openers. I've met Michael in person, and designed his blog. He's a straight-shooter and tells it like it is.

409 mama winger  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 10:56:33am

re: #402 medaura18586

The point is that Christianity has been infused with Classic Western Philosophy to mitigate some of its most problematic areas, and most Christians take most things in their holy book as a metaphor.

This is simply not the case.

410 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:03:54am

re: #94 wolfie

"Serbs are pricks."
And Americans are fat.

Well, fortunately for you, fat people don't have a penchant for massacring their neighbors.

411 mama winger  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:05:02am

Maximus has a son reporting for active duty this month. He will be going to Iraq.


Maximus - my nic is blue for you.


From one military parent to another.

412 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:12:53am

re: #411 mama winger

Maximus has a son reporting for active duty this month. He will be going to Iraq.


Maximus - my nic is blue for you.


From one military parent to another.

As was Cindy Sheehan: i.e. having a son deployed in Iraq. Didn't stop her from being a degenerate lunatic.

re: #409 mama winger

This is simply not the case.

Yeah, it is the case, since Catholics are the biggest block of Christians world-wide, and the Vatican accepts evolutionary theory. Just because you personally are not one of those moderates, doesn't mean you represent the majority of Christians.

413 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:15:16am

re: #101 Maximu§

Karadzic Defiant in Court

Did the world expect him to lay down and spread his legs for the corrupt International Court of Justice? This "genocide" charge sounds like BS to this old soldier and I happen to support the Serbian people.

Of course. They're Christians, right? They have to be the good guys. Yet they overwhelmingly support a genocidal maniac who ordered the mass murder of innocent Muslim civilians. Just like you? Rhetorical question, I know.

And people here get upset because someone wrote the Serbs are 'pricks?' Talk about sweeping generalizations.

414 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:18:27am

re: #102 HoosierHoops

i got 2 words for you.. Bill Clinton
anymore generalizations we need to discuss?

Hey, I have three words for ya: GET A CLUE!

Like it or not, it wasn't Bill Clinton who ignited the Balkans wars. So stop acting like a moral relativist moonbat.

415 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:25:07am

re: #408 Charles

I recommend that if you aren't familiar with the history and current situation in Bosnia-Serbia, etc., you spend some time reading Michael Totten's blog. Totten is no apologist for anybody's terrorism, and his pieces on the Bosnian Muslims are eye-openers. I've met Michael in person, and designed his blog. He's a straight-shooter and tells it like it is.

Glad to hear you've been reading all of Totten's dispatches. I guess I had been rather foolishly trying to shove them down your throat, not knowing whether you were familiar with his work from the Balkans.

You designed his blog? Nice... I wish you'd have included a functional search and/or categories though, as I always have to use Google to show people here his relevant articles.

416 mama winger  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:28:29am

re: #412 medaura18586

1. Maximus is not Cindy Sheehan, nor is he a deranged lunatic. This is a silly comparison.

2. Who was talking about evolutionary theory? Not I. You made the statement that most Christians see the Bible as simply a metaphor. That is not the case. I stand by my statement.

417 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:32:10am

re: #416 mama winger

1. Maximus is not Cindy Sheehan, nor is he a deranged lunatic. This is a silly comparison.

2. Who was talking about evolutionary theory? Not I. You made the statement that most Christians see the Bible as simply a metaphor. That is not the case. I stand by my statement.

I think he is a deranged lunatic, or at least a healthy segment thereof, i.e. a genocide sympathizing racist and religious bigot, for which he was just freshly banned.

I made the statement that most Christians see most parts of the Bible as metaphors, a very crucial part of the Bible being Genesis, and its inherent contradiction with evolutionary theory, most Christians, including at least Catholics accepting evolution, means they view at least this one very crucial part of the Bible as metaphor.

So I stand by my statement.

418 Colonel Panik  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:34:37am

Croat Nazi Concentration Camp Commander Given Hero's Burial

Commander of the second-largest concentration camp complex of World War II, Croatia’s Jasenovac, passed away last week and received a burial in his homeland — in full Nazi uniform, with full honors, and with a Catholic priest officiating. No media attention and therefore no public outrage is being devoted to the funeral of Dinko Sakic, a gruesome but not atypical occurrence in what is the Former Yugoslavia’s frontrunner for EU membership — Croatia.

So far, the only outrage has come from the Simon Wiesenthal Center:

Jerusalem – The Simon Wiesenthal Center today called upon Croatian President Stjepan Mesić to condemn the organizers of the recent funeral of convicted Croatian mass murderer Dinko Sakić, the former commandant of the infamous Jasenovac concentration camp, for turning the event into a celebration of his Ustasha crimes. In a letter sent today by its chief Nazi-hunter, Israel director Dr. Efraim Zuroff to the Croatian president, the Center stressed the affront to all Ustasha victims and people of conscience the world over when a mass murderer is buried in his Ustasha uniform and praised by a priest as being “a model for all Croatians.”

Instead of even noticing real, current-day Nazism — not “neo-Nazism” but the original thing, seeded in the hearts of the very Nazis’ progeny — the world reserves its unequivocal condemnation for those who refused to live, yet again, under the Croatian Nazis that once killed their entire families, and therefore reacted to an act of war with war.

So this month we’ve had the conviction of a Bosnian-Muslim butcher overturned; we’ve had a Croatian terrorist released and a Croatian Nazi buried with honors; we’ve also had a historic and warm meeting at the White House between the American president and unprosecuted Albanian terrorists, mafia bosses and war criminals who were receiving help from bin Laden while receiving help from us in the 90s. But fear not: the Karadzic trial — while revealing reprehensible war crimes that nonetheless pale in comparison to the ignored war crimes against Serbs — will renew yet again the world’s contempt for everything Serbian.

419 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:37:10am

re: #134 medaura18586

Only to down dings for this vile comment so far? Does it say anything about the confusion (or worse) on this thread? ... taps fingers... waits...


It says pretty much everything you need to know about the Hypocrites'R'Us section:

Bill Clinton = Evil Archvillain Who Orchestrated Srebrenica from the Oval Office
Serbs = Poor Oppressed Christians Threatened by Terrorists
Bosniaks, Kosovars, Croats = Evil Terrorists On A Centuries Old Jihad Against Serbia
Karadzic = True Serb Patriot

Of course, they try to pass it off as moral relativism of the worst kind—because, you know, "there are no good guys in the Balkans."

420 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:37:52am

re: #418 Colonel Panik

True true... But if there is one thing Serbs ever fought the Croats and still hate them to this day, is not because the former had Nazi sympathies.

Care to know why? Got 19 minutes to spare? If so you can find out:

Google Video

421 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:38:03am

re: #418 Colonel Panik

What is your point?

422 Charles  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:39:14am

re: #416 mama winger

1. Maximus is not Cindy Sheehan, nor is he a deranged lunatic. This is a silly comparison.

And anyone who apologizes for Serbian atrocities, even after being shown exactly what we're talking about, is not welcome to post at LGF. This is rude, ugly behavior, and I'm not interested in taking the heat for someone posting under a pseudonym.

423 Colonel Panik  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:42:24am

re: #420 medaura18586

True true... But if there is one thing Serbs ever fought the Croats and still hate them to this day, is not because the former had Nazi sympathies.

Care to know why? Got 19 minutes to spare? If so you can find out:

[Link: video.google.com...]

I'll take a look at it and look into that book. But just at a cursory glance it appears to be Croatian fascist historical revisionism.

424 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:44:28am

re: #419 A. van Hilten

Tell me about it...

I had no idea how ugly some people's motivations were, people whom I fancied to be allies against Islamofascism prima facia.

These Kosovo/Serbia threads have really curled up my stomach in disgust. Have you noticed the almost 100% overlap between apologists for Serbian atrocities and Creationist zealots in ID threads?

I find it very interesting. It's as if the most literalist religionists on the Christian/Jewish camps, just like their Muslim fundamentalist counterparts, feel part of a holy global religious war, or at least see everything through that prism.

It's Jewhad or the Crusades here as far as they are concerned. They see Muslim heathen villains to slay everywhere, in every conflict, even when none are there to deserve such contempt and genocidal fantasies.

425 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:47:17am

re: #423 Colonel Panik

How can you tell anything from a cursory glance? Confirmation bias much? It is not a book but a documentary, so what have you been looking at to see Croat revisionist propaganda?

The researcher behind that documentary is the recipient of the medal "Righteous Among the Nations". Do you know what Israel awards that medal for?

So take it with an open mind, and when you do, look for different sources. Everything in that documentary can be independently corroborated.

426 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:50:38am

re: #423 Colonel Panik

By the way, the documentary in no way tries to exculpate Croatia's genocidal acts against Jews, Serbs, et al during WW2. So how is it revisionist Croat history?

It's about the history of the Serbs, and Serbia's role in the Holocaust. It doesn't make Croats or anyone else better guys for it. It just explores the history of another nation, which has successfully re-written history to the point that now people on this thread, for example, think Serbs were fighting the good fight and were opposing the Nazis during WW2.

All it goes to show you is that they were not the great guys they have made themselves to be; not that the Croats are angels.

427 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:53:33am

re: #423 Colonel Panik

The Serbs have been behaving like fascists too, yet I was taken to task for calling them pricks. I'm not going to apologize for thinking fascists and ethnic nationalists are pricks. I'm not going to make excuses for them, and I'm not going to ding people up making excuses for them.

428 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 11:56:09am

re: #177 jcw46

re: #160 Slumbering Behemoth
Just joshing around although from the context it seemed pretty obvious that the "mrs" was going to do the "mr". As to selfish bastards; my experience has been that the selfishness can be on both sides of the bed.

As to the Serbians and war crimes; they all pretty much feel justified in their attitude.
Although no group can be justified for "ethnic cleansing", the serbs were invaded by the Ottoman turks and were given a very rough time of it.

In that area of the world when they hate, they hate real good and for a long, long time!

Then maybe it's time to give back Manhattan to its original inhabitants... Just sayin'.

Oh, I see—"no group can be justified for 'ethnic cleansing'," BUT the Serbs had been oppressed for soooo long that the Bosniaks had it coming because of the Ottoman rule in the region. Funny, last time I checked, Croats weren't Muslims (and Bosniaks are NOT descendants of the Turks either)... So there goes your rationale for "ethnic cleansing."

429 Colonel Panik  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:02:06pm

re: #425 medaura18586

All right, I will do some looking in to it. Medaura, most of my understanding of the history of the Balkans comes from WWII history books and documentaries I read and watched in the 1960's and 70's which were not particularly flattering to the Croats, Bosnian Muslims or Albanians...well before the Balkan conflicts of the 1990's . My perception of the Balkan conflicts of the 1990's is that all sides committed atrocities, but that the Croat, Bosniak and Albanian side was better at manipulating the press in the West to gain sympathy for their side, and that those playing down the Croat, Bosnian Muslim and Albanian role on the Nazi side in WWII are engaging in their own form of Holocaust revisionism.

430 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:07:56pm

re: #204 Mardukhai

The Serbs have been living in a very tough part of the world since the Ottoman Turk invasion of the fourteenth century. They, and their Croat, Greek, and Albanian neighbors learned a lot of bad habits from the Ottomans, mainly Islamic-style tribalism.

There are no good guys in that part of the world.

You guys need new talkin' points: "There are no good guys in that part of the world." Where's the pro-Serb equivalent of the Disco Institute when you need them?

431 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:16:51pm

re: #230 Maximu§

Yeah so?

We bombed the s**t out of the Serb's power plants (something we didn't even do in Iraq), bombed bridges, bombed hospitals etc etc.....and than created an Islamic state right in their face.

Your surprised the Serbian mobs burned down our embassy? I'm not and I don't blame them. WE FUK'd UP! We stuck our nose where it did'nt belong!

Siding with the enemy... Sounds reminiscent of the moronic convergence between the Disco Freaks and Harun Yahya.

432 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:28:39pm

re: #429 Colonel Panik

All right, I will do some looking in to it. Medaura, most of my understanding of the history of the Balkans comes from WWII history books and documentaries I read and watched in the 1960's and 70's which were not particularly flattering to the Croats, Bosnian Muslims or Albanians...well before the Balkan conflicts of the 1990's . My perception of the Balkan conflicts of the 1990's is that all sides committed atrocities, but that the Croat, Bosniak and Albanian side was better at manipulating the press in the West to gain sympathy for their side, and that those playing down the Croat, Bosnian Muslim and Albanian role on the Nazi side in WWII are engaging in their own form of Holocaust revisionism.

Well then let me elaborate:

Whenever you talk about "sides" committing atrocities, you are engaging in an abstraction. What is a side? It's a moot point, because of course there have been Albanian, Bosnian, Croat, Slovene, and Macedonian nationals who have committed ugly hateful ethnically motivates crimes against one or more of the other nationalities thrown into the bag of the Balkans. But so what? There have probably been nationals of every country guilty of ugly crimes against ethnic groups of other countries. It's not saying much.

Also, all of the above countries were occupied by axis forces during WW2, so obviously there must have been at least some collaborationists to be found in each country, to run the new puppet governments during occupation. Isn't that also common sense? That out of each of these ethnic populations of millions, there will be fascist/Nazi collaborationists to be found? There were 22K American Nazis rallying up on Madison Square in NYC on 02/02/1939. Should the US have been invaded and occupied by Hitler's forces, those people would have been put in power. So there, you would have found collaborators in that case too. Would have have made the US a Nazi nation?

It's not Albania's fault that it was a country too small, too poor, and too ravished by WW1 to successfully fight off the fascist invasions from right across the Adriatic (Italy) and manage being occupied. Nor was it the fault of any of the formerly Yugoslav nations getting occupied by axis forces during WW2. They couldn't prevent it.

What matters is how these nations behaved themselves, by and large, during the occupation, how enthusiastically did they embrace Nazi orders, how willing were they to sabotage their occupiers where it matters, etc.

The record speaks for itself:

Croatia went all the way, and used the Nazi umbrella to ethnically cleanse its population from Jews, Serbs, and other minorities in concentration camps. Does that mean every Croat was guilty? No, but mass support was needed to carry out such mass atrocities. This part of Croatia's history is common knowledge though.

Serbia: There were Communist partizans fighting off the occupation, led by Tito (a Croat, no less, so not all Croats were Nazis) but very many Serbs fought for both sides, often switching sides many times during the war. Belgrade was the first "Jewish Free" European city, over 11K Jews were decimated, the anti-Semitic Orthodox Church played a disgusting role in facilitating the perishing of the Jews, and many former Chetniks (read ultra nationalist fascists during WW2) switched sides in the end and declared themselves partizans.

Bosnia: I don't know much about how Bosnians behaved during WW2, but I know they were by and large, the victims during the recent conflicts.

433 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:31:40pm

re: #250 yochanan

the Croat and Bosnian butchered this generations Serbs parents during ww2. all of this did not come out of the blue, plus the Muslims and Croats also did ethnic cleaning in this war as well. NO ONE HAD CLEAN HANDS but the Serbs lost the war so the winner Croats the justice.

Andersonville wasn't the only hell hole during the civil war almost as many sessch pow's died in the POW camp in Chicago but since the north won the war the camp director in Chicago did not get hung only the leader of Anderson got that fate.

the UTASHI were croate fascists who commited genoicde during the war and the grand mufti organized SS division from bosnian and albanian muslims.

Making excuses for Serb war criminals... Again? You seem to have been wilfully indoctrinated with Serbian propaganda and outright lies regarding the Holocaust, but the truth is a little different:

The Holocaust

The Kingdom of Yugoslavia had had a pro-German government since 1935 with Milan Stojadinović and had enacted anti-Jewish legislation as early as 1937. A group of nationalist generals overthrew the the government of Dragiša Cvetković and the regent Paul on March 27, 1941 under the pretense of opposing the Tripartite Pact with Nazi Germany[5], and on April 6, 1941 German, Italian, Hungarian and Bulgarian troops invaded Yugoslavia.

The Nazi genocide against Serbian (and Yugoslav) Jews began in September 1941, the Jews of Banat and Belgrade being the first to be persecuted by the German army and police with the help of the Serbian police under the orders of the Serbian Government of National Salvation. The Nazis set up two concentration camps in Belgrade with Serbian guards --Banjica and Sajmište-- in order to process and eliminate the Jews captured. As a consequence Emanuel Schäfer, Chief of the German police and Gestapo in Serbia, could boast as soon as 1942 that:

"Belgrade - the only larger European city which has been cleansed of Jews, has become judenfrei."

Similarly Harald Turner of the SS, stated in 1942 that:

"Serbia is a nation in which the problem of Jews and Gypsies has been solved."[6]

By the time Serbia and Yugoslavia were liberated in 1944, most of the Serbian Jewry had been murdered. Of the 82,500 Jews of Yugoslavia alive in 1941, only 14,000 (17%) survived the Holocaust[1]. Only 4,000 Serbian Jews had survived the Holocaust[7].

The Chetniks didn't love Jews any more than the Croats did.

434 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:34:18pm

re: #271 Killian Bundy

`

In the the Balkans, the ethnic grudges go back many centuries and they take them very seriously.

/there are no clean hands in the region

Moral relativism, anyone?

435 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:37:12pm

re: #394 yochanan

yoch- I wasn't talking about you.

436 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:37:13pm

re: #279 yochanan

in this round the croats did there own ethnic cleanining serbs were kicked out of eastern croata. and bosnians did it too. i never said the serbs were guiltless just that all sides did not have clean hands.

and on the subject of jews in france or anywere else in europe GET YOUR TOUCKAS OUT OF THERE BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.

Paranoid much?

437 Colonel Panik  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:42:49pm

re: #432 medaura18586

Bosnia: I don't know much about how Bosnians behaved during WW2, but I know they were by and large, the victims during the recent conflicts.

Does the name Haj Amin Al-Husseini ring any bells?

As knowledgeable as you appear to be I can't believe that you are not aware of the Bosnian Muslim role in the war.

Al-Husseini was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who raised up an entire division of Bosnian Muslims to fight for the Waffen SS, the Handschar division. Alia Izetbegovic (certainly you must know who he is) was a member of the Handshar division during the war. He wrote a Muslim supremacist tract during the 1970's that landed him in hot water with Tito.

Al-Husseini was a busy little Islamofascist...indeed the he is the prototype.
There is some research to suggest that he was very instrumental in the Holocaust...he toured the death camps with Himmler and offered suggestions on how to make them more "efficient". He was also involved in the "Golden Square" pro-Nazi coup against British colonial rule in Iraq, along with Saddam Hussein's uncle Kairalah Tufah (sp?). And of course is in infamously well known in Israel as the "uncle" and mentor of Yassir Arafat.

The "Tell The Children" website (run by a Pro-Israel Imam in Italy-go figure!) has a lot of info on Haj Amin, as do many Israeli sites.

More later, work calls.

438 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:42:49pm

Albania: Many fought the fascist Italians and later the German nazis by allying with the partisans (who eventually took over after the war, and turned the country into a more isolated and despotic communist dictatorship than North Korea, if that's even possible).

During the occupation, not a single Jew was turned in. Got that? Not a single one. It says so in the Holocaust Museum in Israel, and I should know because my mother is Jewish. There were more Jews in the country after WW2 than there were before the war. You can find the exact objective Jewish sources on Wikipedia.

So how did they manipulate their role in the Holocaust?

Even if they had, which they didn't (if anything how Albanians saved their Jews is vastly under reported) and I mean, there are many European nations with huge stains over the Holocaust: Do you advocate those nations to be ethnically cleansed as revenge? That makes no sense.

One SS division made up of a few thousand Kosovar Albanians was formed in Kosovo, which was focused on fighting the partisans.

According to Wikipedia: it fought against communists who were on the increase and consolidating their actions, both in Albania and Yugoslavia as the Second World War was drawing to an end. The division was operational for a few months (February 1944 – November 1944). Given that most of the recruits deserted, it was declared a failure and disbanded. By October 1944, their number had dwindled to 3500, and it "never became a significant fighting force"

It rounded up about 150 Jews and turned them in, most of whom were sent off to Albania, in Berat, where they were ultimately saved. That's the only black stain, compared to 11K in Serbia alone.

I am not telling you this to try and make Albanians sound like great guys; merely that it was not the way you thought "Serbs=victims/martyrs/fighters-of-nazim"/"musl ims=evil/collaborators/Holocaust-participants"

And just why do you think the Serbs' crimes were greatly exaggerated, while those of the "Muslims" whitewashed?

Are you aware that there is hard evidence that Milosevic emptied mass graves and dumped the corpses into Serbia proper so that his regime's crimes would not fully be captured by the media? Read this for an eye opener, by a reputable British historian:

[Link: www.bosnia.org.uk...]

If anything, Karadzic might be guilty for more than we know... not less.

439 Ma Sands  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:52:41pm

re: #417 medaura18586

I made the statement that most Christians see most parts of the Bible as metaphors, a very crucial part of the Bible being Genesis, and its inherent contradiction with evolutionary theory...

So I stand by my statement.


medaura, two things: 1) Many who claim to be Christian, are not; and 2) Are you able to give a number figure of those Christians you say do not accept the Bible, including that first book, as truth?

Hint: If that first book is not accepted as truth, its completion in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, cannot be, either.

440 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:55:23pm

re: #360 jcw46

Well it is true that not ALL muslims are terrorists. However with the Irish troubles cooled for awhile, it can be said that ALL terrorists are muslims.

It can also be said that Islam has attempted many times to subjugate the rest of the world, that it has major sections of it's guiding philosphy/religious writings that DEMAND that ALL muslims must violently subdue infidel nations and either convert them or destroy them.

The major muslim geographical areas have tried for empire quite a few times and sometimes have succeeded to the area's people's regret. (the Jews being the most obvious)

so it's not so far of stretch to be a LITTLE paranoid about muslim folks from countries that have recently declared AMERICA as the Great Satan and should be destroyed.

I mean you do understand why we might have some concern?

This has nothing to do with the former Yugoslavia before the Serbs injected jihadism into the conflict (for that you can thank the Chetniks). But don't let the facts get in the way of your broad brush Islamophobia.

FYI, the FARC, ETA and other active terrorist groups are not Islamic.

441 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:56:12pm

re: #437 Colonel Panik

Yes, I have heard of those people indeed, but they are not synonymous with "The Bosnian nation's role in the Holocaust". You are talking about a population of millions here.

The history of Bosnia during that period is muddied because once the kingdom of Yugoslavia was conquered by Nazi forces in World War II, all of Bosnia was ceded to the Nazi-puppet state of Croatia. The Nazi rule over Bosnia led to widespread persecution. The Jewish population was nearly exterminated. Many Serbs in the area took up arms and joined the Chetniks; a Serb nationalist and royalist resistance movement that both conducted guerrilla warfare against the Nazis but also committed numerous atrocities against chiefly Bosnian Muslim civilians in regions under their control. Consequently, several Bosnian Muslim paramilitary units joined the Axis powers to counter their own persecution in the hands of the Serbs in Bosnia.---From Wikipedia

So a) Bosnians did not have jurisdiction of their own over their territories, both the Croats, but much more so the Serbs, were trying to expunge them off of the face of the Earth, so they were in a very tight spot. They are not noted for masterminding or executing any mass scale atrocities. I don't know if they lacked the will to be in that position, so I cannot speak for their conscience, but they never were in such position. They were fighting for their necks.

[Link: www.twf.org...]

442 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 12:58:44pm

re: #439 Ma Sands

1) Many who claim to be Christian, are not;

Are you talking about people like Christian Reconstructionists, Dominionists, and people belonging to the Christian Identity movement?

and 2) Are you able to give a number figure of those Christians you say do not accept the Bible, including that first book, as truth?

That's not what medaura said. She said "metaphor" and there is a very large number of Christian theologians who agree and have for centuries.

443 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 1:02:07pm

re: #366 yochanan

islamists are active in bosnia, macadonia and kosavah if i remember right islamist terrorists were involved in the bosnian civil war including the beheading of captured serbs.

And, pray tell, who's to blame for those atrocities, exactly? Mr. Karadzic et al, perhaps? See, that's what happens when you try to anihilate people for being Muslims. They'll accept Jihadi support for their cause if it keeps them alive... There would be NO islamists in the former Yugoslavia were it not for the likes of your beloved Karadzic.

444 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 1:02:12pm

re: #439 Ma Sands

medaura, two things: 1) Many who claim to be Christian, are not; and 2) Are you able to give a number figure of those Christians you say do not accept the Bible, including that first book, as truth?

Hint: If that first book is not accepted as truth, its completion in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, cannot be, either.

Ma Sands, I do not need to give you detailed statistics. This territory was already covered in great detail during the ID/evolution threads.

And I have heard of many self-styled Christians, denouncing Catholics as apostates for not accepting Genesis as literally true. I guess you are one of those people. So are Catholics Christians or not? We all know they call themselves such. Their numbers range in the 1.2 billions, last time I checked.

It is very possible to accept the story of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus as true without being a young earth Creationist. I wouldn't bother myself trying to reconcile the two, I am an atheist. But I don't see the two positions as mutually exclusive at all. If you have any grandiose argument to make, I suggest you take it up with the Pope.

If for some reason, I wrongly believed in the irreconcilability of Jesus' story with evolution, I would pick evolution, but this is a false dilemma.

By the way, glad to have you back. I thought you were gonna stay on gagdad bob's site bashing Charles all day from now on.

445 Ma Sands  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 1:07:09pm

re: #442 Sharmuta

Are you talking about people like Christian Reconstructionists, Dominionists, and people belonging to the Christian Identity movement?

She said "metaphor" and there is a very large number of Christian theologians who agree and have for centuries.


No, Shar, no groups or labels..........Christ-ians, pure and simple..... :)

I've seen you say "very large number", so often, Shar......that is not an actual figure..... :) --and, also, I've replied to that before, from you: a Christian is not responsible to any but God Himself, in holding to truth......are you familiar with the work and purpose of the Holy Spirit?

446 Ma Sands  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 1:11:54pm

re: #444 medaura18586

medaura, you are funny. Thanks for the chuckle..... :) So much "leading the witness" in your comment.........you must have had to do with lawyers..... :)

447 Ma Sands  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 1:13:49pm

Be back later......thank you guys!

448 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 1:18:03pm

re: #445 Ma Sands

Well- if a Christian is, by your definition "not responsible to any but God Himself" then I fail to see how you have the authority to tell anyone they are or are not a Christian.

Read this Ma:

There is a great argument by the Rambam (a very important rabbi/philosopher/doctor/scholastic/prot o-rationalist of the 12th and early 13th cent) that is germane to the conversation.

It goes like this:

1. The word of G-d can not be false.
2. What has been proven to be true can not be false by definition.

Therefore, if what has been proven to be true contradicts your understanding of the word of G-d, the only thing that can be incorrect is your understanding of the word of G-d.

The Bible is not a science book, and if you would like to know more about Theologians who state Genesis is metaphorical- you happen to be on the internet, and can research it for yourself. I think you will still disagree unless you conduct the research yourself.

449 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 1:29:27pm

re: #383 jcw46

When was the last time FARC flew some airplanes into some buildings or blew themselves up amongst a bunch of men, women and children going about their innocent business?

You obviously don't know sh*t about the current hostage crisis in Colombia, so stop lecturing everybody else with your ignorant broadsides and learn about the FARC. They have taken hundreds of civilian hostages through the years, many of whom have been executed in cold blood. There's even a radio program so people can get in touch with their (kidnapped) loved ones.

Modus operandi
The FARC-EP has employed vehicle bombings, gas cylinder bombs, assassinations, landmines, kidnapping, extortion, hijacking, guerrilla and conventional military action against Colombian political, military, economic as well as civilian targets, to attack those it considers a threat to its movement. It has not been uncommon for civilians to die or suffer forced displacement, directly or indirectly, due to many of these actions. The FARC-EPs April 16 and April 18, 2005 gas cylinder attacks on the town of Toribió, Cauca led to the displacement of more than two thousand indigenous inhabitants and the destruction of two dozen civilian houses. A February 2005 report from the United Nations' High Commissioner for Human Rights mentioned that, during 2004, “FARC-EP continued to commit grave breaches [of human rights] such as murders of protected persons, torture and hostage-taking, which affected many civilians, including women, returnees, boys and girls, and ethnic groups."[74]

IEDs
The FARC’s tactic of employing a type of improvised mortars made from gas canisters (or cylinders) as explosives, a weapon it often uses when launching attacks at towns and sites in them that they consider as military objectives (such as police stations), has a high degree of inaccuracy. Resulting targeting difficulties have caused these weapons to often level civilian houses and/or harm civilians, such as the case in Toribío on April 24, 2005, and the earlier 2002 attack on a church in Bojayá which killed 119 civilians.

Attacks on civilian population
Human Rights Watch considers that “the FARC-EPs continued use of gas cylinder mortars shows this armed group’s flagrant disregard for lives of civilians...gas cylinder bombs are impossible to aim with accuracy and, as a result, frequently strike civilian objects and cause avoidable civilian casualties."[17]

Murder of three Americans
In March 1999, the FARC-EP killed three U.S. Native American rights activists in Venezuelan territory after kidnapping them in Colombia. After initial denials and claims that these U.S. citizens were CIA agents, the FARC-EP subsequently admitted that this action was a mistake and claimed that it would internally punish those responsible.

Human Rights Watch has criticized FARC for not applying any serious punishment to those involved in the incident since "the two guerrillas who killed [them] were eventually sentenced to construct fifty meters of trench and clear land."[75]

Kidnappings
The FARC-EP is responsible for most of the ransom kidnappings in Colombia[citation needed]. The group’s kidnapping targets are usually those that it considers wealthy landowners and businessmen, the police and military, as well as foreign tourists and entrepreneurs, and prominent international and domestic officials. [76] Colombian and international NGOs have documented that in recent years the FARC has also resorted to kidnapping people from lower income sectors (that is, from the Colombian middle class downward), in particular when they are thought to be collaborators or relatives of the FARC’s enemies. It is argued that many of these kidnappings have taken place with little to no regard for the target’s age, gender or or health conditions.

WTF are you talkin' about?

450 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 1:43:19pm

re: #393 yochanan

all this muslim bigot got was 1 month for the assult which ruined this womans life and livelyhood and you will note after this attack he did another one.

i do worry about muslim's going on personal jihad as i live way to close to them.

Oh, I thought it was Europe where your tuchas was at risk of being 'disfigured'...

If you had bothered to read the story more carefully, you'd have realised the *irony* of getting all worked up over one Jewish model being disfigured by a Bosnian Muslim while at the same time you're cutting poor Radovan the slack he so badly needs... You don't have a clue about what the Serbs did to Muslim women in Bosnia, do you?

451 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 2:07:25pm

re: #429 Colonel Panik

[...] My perception of the Balkan conflicts of the 1990's is that all sides committed atrocities, but that the Croat, Bosniak and Albanian side was better at manipulating the press in the West to gain sympathy for their side, and that those playing down the Croat, Bosnian Muslim and Albanian role on the Nazi side in WWII are engaging in their own form of Holocaust revisionism.

And WHO is doing that, on this or any other thread? Serb apologists always complain about how posters who won't put up with the Serb victimhood BS to justify Chetnik war crimes during the 90s are "whitewashing" the atrocities of Bosniaks and Croats (usually, during the Holocaust).

That's a textbook example of projection, IMO.

452 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 2:18:58pm

re: #438 medaura18586

Are you aware that there is hard evidence that Milosevic emptied mass graves and dumped the corpses into Serbia proper so that his regime's crimes would not fully be captured by the media? Read this for an eye opener, by a reputable British historian:

[Link: www.bosnia.org.uk...]

If anything, Karadzic might be guilty for more than we know... not less.

Yep. They used refrigerator trucks to accomplish that feat of Serbian nationalism sadism.

453 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 2:26:01pm

re: #439 Ma Sands

medaura, two things: 1) Many who claim to be Christian, are not; and 2) Are you able to give a number figure of those Christians you say do not accept the Bible, including that first book, as literal truth?

Hint: If that first book is not accepted as literal truth, its completion in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, cannot be, either.

There, fixed it for ya.

You insist that "Many who claim to be Christian, are not." And why are we to take your opinions at face value, then? Maybe it's you who's not a *genuine* Christian? Can't you just wrap your mind around the notion that there may be other Christians with a different interpretation of the Bible out there? Are you more Papist than the Pope, perhaps?

454 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 2:36:57pm

re: #452 A. van Hilten

Yep. They used refrigerator trucks to accomplish that feat of Serbian nationalism sadism.

Yeah, it's disgusting. And Serbs found all of this out by themselves, so not even Serbs deny it. It's what provided the first (however slight) chip on Milosevi'c reputation among Serbs.

455 Ma Sands  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 5:09:48pm

re: #448 Sharmuta

Shar, I have all the authority there is, in Christ, and He says I can know them by their fruits..... :)

And, again, I repeat --there's no way to take God out of what He has
created & is, by His own word, maintaining moment by moment..... :)

--------------------------------------

re: #453 A. van Hilten

Van, it takes one to know one, and you, by your own admission, some months ago, confessed that you are not one.....sorry. :)

456 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 6:37:14pm

re: #455 Ma Sands

Man, are you a brick wall or what!

Still didn't bother answering my simple question: Is the Pope a Christian? What about his 1.2 billion Catholic followers?

457 bernard[deleted]  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 7:54:32pm
458 Charles  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 7:58:49pm

Un-freaking-believable.

459 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 8:08:11pm

Ah, what did I miss, Charles!?

460 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 1, 2008 9:22:04pm

re: #455 Ma Sands

No, Ma. That's false prophets you shall know by their fruits. Judging the Heavenly worth of the heart and soul of another Christian is not granted to you.

461 A. van Hilten  Sat, Aug 2, 2008 5:35:06am

re: #455 Ma Sands

Shar, I have all the authority there is, in Christ, and He says I can know them by their fruits..... :)

And, again, I repeat --there's no way to take God out of what He has
created & is, by His own word, maintaining moment by moment..... :)

--------------------------------------

re: #453 A. van Hilten

Van, it takes one to know one, and you, by your own admission, some months ago, confessed that you are not one.....sorry. :)

So, unless I'm missing something, the Pope is not a real Christian in your book.

462 Ma Sands  Sat, Aug 2, 2008 9:13:13am

re: #460 Sharmuta

Ah, Shar.....you miss a lot, taking things out of context...........there's a lot of other good stuff in this portion, too..... :)

463 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 2, 2008 9:24:42am

re: #462 Ma Sands

I think you better think very seriously about verse 2, verse 5, and verses 22-23 especially. Spare me the "out of context". It is clearly stated "false prophets". I don't even want to think who, in your mind, is bearing "evil fruit".

464 Josephine  Sat, Aug 2, 2008 10:19:00am

re: #460 Sharmuta

No, Ma. That's false prophets you shall know by their fruits. Judging the Heavenly worth of the heart and soul of another Christian is not granted to you.

Sorry to be posting on a dead thread but I have to say:

Well said, Shar.

I would like to add (not correct, but add my own thought):

Judging the Heavenly worth of the heart and soul of another person is not granted to you.

465 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 2, 2008 10:32:02am

re: #464 Josephine

Thank you, Josephine. I greatly respect your opinion, and that means a lot to me. And you're absolutely correct- the judgment of any person's soul is not granted to any human.

466 Josephine  Sat, Aug 2, 2008 12:18:58pm

re: #465 Sharmuta

Thank you, Shar. Ditto.

467 Ma Sands  Sat, Aug 2, 2008 1:19:08pm

re: #463 Sharmuta

Shar, you don't know how delighted I am --how I wish you did, though :) --that you are in the Word and discussing its validity! :)

You know I love ya, don't you? :)

468 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 2, 2008 6:29:10pm

re: #467 Ma Sands

Ma- do you have any idea whatsoever how it might be offensive to another Christian to be talked down to about the validity of Jesus' word?

469 Ma Sands  Sat, Aug 2, 2008 10:27:33pm

Shar, there is very good meaning in that word, here.....


But I have been urging you in this manner:

For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the [a]breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.
-- Amplified Bible, Hebrews 4:12
470 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 8:17:16am

re: #469 Ma Sands

Are you proselytizing me?

471 Ma Sands  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:06:45am

That is funny, Shar.......you say you are already a follower of Christ..... :)

I mean what I say, as a comforting, as an urging onward and upward.....

472 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:09:24am

re: #471 Ma Sands

Why do you feel I need urging? Am I not Christian enough for you?

473 Ma Sands  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:12:28am

re: #472 Sharmuta

Shar.....I, myself, am joyful in the LORD every time I see Him sending someone along side of me.....it's what we Christians do. :)

474 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:12:55am

re: #473 Ma Sands

You did not answer my question.

475 doriangrey  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:13:03am

re: #460 Sharmuta

Judging the Heavenly worth of the heart and soul of another Christian is not granted to you.

Bless you Sharmuta, these are indeed words of great wisdom.

476 Ma Sands  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:14:47am

Leaving now, Shar.....thanks for the peaceable conversation. :)

477 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:15:18am

re: #476 Ma Sands

Why won't you answer me?

478 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:17:59am

re: #473 Ma Sands

Shar.....I, myself, am joyful in the LORD every time I see Him sending someone along side of me.....it's what we Christians do. :)

Actually- I think you did answer my question. I am not the type of Christian YOU think I should be. I ask you respectfully here and now to not proselytize to me in the future. If you think I'm so wayward, then pray for me, but I ask you keep that to yourself as well.

479 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:18:26am

And thank you, Dorian.

480 JHW  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:22:07am

re: #477 Sharmuta

Sharmuta, hang on a bit, I'm very late to this thread (dealing with the VA), I'm going to post a spin-off link above to two superb British Channel 2 video documentaries in support of your position. Had to search for them for a while, I confess I'm not as educated on this as I'd like, as you say beware of European nationalism. I think we saw this on the VB discussion. Anyway, I think you'll get a lot out of these documentaries.

481 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:27:25am

re: #480 JHW

Thanks- I'll keep an eye out for them and watch them.

482 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 1:06:16pm
483 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 1:15:17pm
484 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 1:20:34pm

re: #483 mas056

And you make me sick making excuses for ethnic nationalists.

Can't wait to see how other people on this thread will make you sick when you see them make excuses for Serbian atrocities, or when I was told I'd be given a pass if I had said the same comment about Saudis.

485 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 1:48:17pm
486 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 1:54:08pm

re: #484 Sharmuta

No where did you say all Serbs are pricks.

Group characteristics can be inferred from the actions of democratically elected governments. If that's what makes this genocide apologist sick, so be it.

re: #482 mas056

Oh and, by the way, those 250K Serbs "ethnically cleansed" from Krajina (the number is greatly disputed by the way, and 250K constitutes an absolute higher bound, but it's great of mas056 to give Serbian propagandists the benefit of the doubt) were not forcibly expelled from anywhere. Their leaders ordered them to leave, so they could go nuts on the Croatian population, in a creepily appropriate analogy to the way Arab leaders urged Arab inhabitants of Israel to leave so they could raze Israel to the ground and kill every Jew (the only remaining people) indiscriminately. This has been recorded on tape. There is video footage of it, so stop trying to rewrite history, mas056 .

Also, no minorities live behind barbed wire in Kosovo. Some Orthodox churches are protected by barbed wire to prevent acts of vandalism, but it's pure and deliberate misinformation to extend the same situation to people.

Enough with your Serbian propaganda!

Serbs are not nationalists? You you f-ing kidding me? Try to be more subtle next time. Your lies will stick more when they have the slightest shade of credibility, and right now, you're way off target.

Subtle lies stick best!

487 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 1:54:52pm

re: #485 mas056

you call it making excuses. I call it the truth. deal with it.

And I call you a genocide sympathizing revisionist propagandizing fascist monster.

Deal with it!

488 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 2:05:58pm

re: #482 mas056

Oh and, how selectively blind of you:

They cobbled together Bosnia, where none of the three groups; Croat, Bosnian Muslim or Serb, wish to live with one another, ...

So the carving of Bosnia-Herzegovina out of Yugoslavia was a big mistake, since no one there wishes to live with one another...

In fact, they (the Serbs) (and many Croats, Bosnians and Kosovans) were the multi-ethnic federalists seeking to preserve Yugoslavia, and the extreme nationalists were those who now govern the statelets of Croatia, Muslim Bosnia and Albanian Kosovo.

But no one wished to live together in Yugoslavia either! It was a forced polygamous marriage to an abusive husband, Serbia. Only Serbia wished to "preserve" Yugoslavia, because they had first-class citizen status in it, and could exploit and brutalize everyone else under the hook. But it was OK if none of those other nationalities wished to live together in Yugoslavia: Serbia's love for the "federation" was enough to "save the marriage" right?

How disgusting and hypocritical!

Oh and, who were these "many Croats, Bosnians, and Kosovars" wishing to preserve Yugoslavia? Give me some names and statistics, please.

That's right, you will find none.

489 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 2:08:36pm
490 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 2:27:31pm
491 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 2:32:18pm

re: #489 mas056

You are one sick f**k with very stale talking points. The "us poor suffering Serbs" excuse for atrocities, stretching back to WW2... give me a break! Yes, thousands of Serbs died in concentration camps in Croatia in WW2, just as many many more Jews died in concentration camps in Germany. That does not give Serbia more of a moral or political right to go apeshit on Croatia today (or 15 years ago, when it actually happened) than it gives Israel to annex Germany today.

Over 11K Jews died in Serbia, with gloating cooperation from the Serb Police, the Chetniks, and even, most disgustingly, the Serbian Othrodox Church.

Less than two hundred Jews were rounded up in Kosovo by the Skanderbeg division, the overwhelming majority of whom were sent off to Albania proper, where they were all saved. Not a single Jew was turned in from Albania popper. None, zero, zilch. It was the only country in the world, occupied by axis forced, which had more Jews after WW2 than it did before: because it was that safe a haven, and European Jews fled there in droves.

So who were the biggest Nazi collaborators, the Serbs or the Albanians? Huh?

And in any case, even if Kosovars had been big time Nazi collaborators, which they weren't, or at any rate, bigger than the Serbs were, which again, they weren't (compare 11K+ dead Serbian Jews to around 150 Kosovar Jews turned in, most of whom were ultimately saved) how is it even remotely relevant to Kosovars' right to self-determination in the 1990s?

So Croats killed Serbs in the '40s. What's Serbia's excuse for going after Slovenia, Bosnia, and Kosovo?

You call warning the inhabitants of an impending assault on what was called a "safe zone" Srebenica, (which was really a staging area for Nasir Oric to massacre Serbs in the surrounding villages...

I don't think it's even possible to get it any more backward than that! They were not "warned"; they were ordered to leave by their own leaders! In any case, they were no more ethnically cleansed by Croats, than the Arabs who fled Israel in the 40s following Arab leaders' orders, were ethnically cleansed by Israel. Israel doesn't allow those people's descendants the "right of return" because most of them left so that their Arab leaders could kill Jews easier (some did leave out of pure fear). What do you have to say about that?

Srebenica was not a safe zone, because UN "peacekeepers" were spineless slugs, and allowed the massacre of Srebenica to happen right in front of their eyes. Hello! It was over 7K Bosnian civilians who were indiscriminately murdered. Serbs being killed by Muslims in the villages? Are you tripping? And how did Bosnians have the muscle to manage that around Srebenica, when they couldn't even manage to defend 7K of their own.

Oh and you're an ignorant twit too! Srebenica and Krajina are not the same place. One is in Croatia, the other in Bosnia. The "warning" were issued in Krajina. Try to learn some basic things about the geography, demographics, and history of the nations you are passing hysterical judgment on!

492 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 2:33:24pm
Srebrenica wasn't genocide....I fear we will lfind that out in this trial if the MSM can report the trial of Karazdic fairly...which I fully doubt...oh, and what happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? To whom does it apply?

Charles, are you seeing this?

493 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 2:37:43pm

re: #490 mas056

I have read many articles about Yugo-nostalgia...perhaps you, yourself don't agree, but you speak only for yourself...


:There is plenty of Yugo-nostalgia around - and it is more than a longing for badly produced cars and central planning.

Across the former republics people say how they miss the unity of the old country, its relative wealth, and how its place in the world meant that they could travel freely. "
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

More blatant textbook Serbian Propaganda:

Slovenia and Croatia are doing much better off today than they ever did under Yugoslavia: economically, politically, culturally,.. everything. They can travel anywhere they want. Serbia is the one lagging behind. What was this amazing place in the world they held as subordinated of Serbia under the communist/fascist Yugoslavia that allowed them to travel freely?

Bosnia is doing much better than it did under a situation where Serbs had a blank check to ethnically cleanse its non-Serbian population. It is a bit frozen since the partitioning, because Republica Srpska stole Bosnian land which it ethnically cleansed. Have you seen the before and after ethnic maps?

I can't wait for this lunatic to be banned!

494 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 2:59:11pm

re: #490 mas056

Also very interesting that since you've been registered for almost a year, you have only 7 comments, 5 of which are on this thread, defending a known mass murderer...

Are you a Serbian troll?

495 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 3:08:20pm

Out of the many themes covered on this site since last November, only defending a mass murderer and God knows what else prompted this freak to contribute his opinions...

496 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 3:48:28pm
497 A. van Hilten  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 4:10:17pm

re: #444 medaura18586

By the way, glad to have you back. I thought you were gonna stay on gagdad bob's site bashing Charles all day from now on.

Oh, indeed.

She's spouting her lunatic drivel over there with Babba Zee, Mama Winger and the rest of the sycophantic clique:

Anonymous said...

Why, indeed, should I be mindful of him?
--joan of argghh!

Or rather, as the thought has finally clarified itself unto words in my slow brain :) , why ARE we mindful of him....

I have seen many hearts wounded and bleeding, by his hand, the greater crescendo beginning around last November....

Having the "position of authority" that he does by dint of being owner of a blog, he operated, up until then, in a goodly manner to turn many hearts toward himself as only one of a delighted and delightful vital community.

I believe in the God of the impossible, and still, daily, nearly unceasingly, have been lifting him up before the Throne....

None of God's words come back to Him void.....and plenty of them have been directed Charles' way........something has got to give..... :)

--Ma Sands

7/28/2008 10:35:00 AM

Anonymous said...

Hullo, lance......you don't know how good it is to see you. :)

--Ma Sands

7/28/2008 12:31:00 PM

Anonymous said...
(Sorry this-site's-Lance......I understand you are not the one I was so heart-wrenchingly missing....)


(And, Babba.....lifting up your hands....sorry --I had forgotten to, for a few hours..... ):


--Ma Sands

7/28/2008 12:51:00 PM

A real class act, coming here to crap on Charles's blog while you bad mouth him with Lance [Kates] and Babba Zee over at One Cosmos.

These are the same people who feel entitled to tell others at LGF whether they are good Christians or not.

498 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 4:34:13pm
499 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 4:44:49pm
500 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 4:48:41pm
501 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 5:14:01pm

re: #485 mas056

So do you agree with others on this thread then, that I deserve a pass using a broad brush against, say, the saudis?

502 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 5:16:24pm
503 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 5:22:05pm

re: #502 mas056

Wow- so you're going to make excuses for serbian atrocities and pin it on jihad?

504 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 5:36:02pm
505 jaunte  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 5:36:29pm

Looking though 788 photos tagged Zenica at flickr.com, I see a only a few headscarves. Most of the street photos look like this:
Zenica: [Link: www.flickr.com...]

506 JHW  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 6:11:38pm

re: #503 Sharmuta

Kenneth's post #309 I thought was particularly good, showing the nexus of the communist past in all this. They've truly been troublemakers, the old KGB bears a lot of responsibility for stirring up radical Islam in particular. I really hate to ascribe everything through the lens of Islam = bogeymen, I don't particularly trust them, but I see it as an incoherent movement, that carry the seeds of their own destruction within them. I'm, on the other hand, getting quite concerned about some of the rhetoric and actions from the modern Kremlin. a potentially far more dangerous bunch than the Bin Ladin types. I guess that comes fro the era I grew up in, where tens of thousands of missiles were pointed at us, Michael Yon's dispatches in particular have shown that we can work with Muslim forces, that is what the surge was all about, and dependent on it.

507 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 6:24:40pm

re: #502 mas056

Oh wow,

UN forces were too scared of "the mujahadeen" to prevent the massacre of 7K+ Bosnians? Funny how the Serbs paramilitias were not scared of "the mujahadeen" when they went in and butchered 7K Bosnians... because guess what... those mujahadeen were nowhere to be found. Plus, wouldn't the mujahadeen have been on the Bosnian side, according to you? Muslim brethren right? Then why would UN forces have been scared of them when their intervention would have consisted in protecting those 7K Bosnians?

Who were they really scared of? "The mujahadeen" whose "Muslim bretheren" they would have gone in to protect, or the Serbs who perpetrated Srebenica's atrocity?

You are a real piece of work!

508 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 6:25:27pm

re: #504 mas056

"So do you agree with others on this thread then, that I deserve a pass using a broad brush against, say, the saudis?"

Generally speaking, painting an entire group with a 'broad brush' weakens one's argument. It shows a 'submission' to hatred---which clouds the judgement, in my opinion.

That's very ironic coming from a guy who's demonizing all Balkan nations expect for the Serbs.

509 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 6:29:00pm

re: #507 medaura18586

mas is saying the dutch were "upset" with the "mujahadeen" so they...what? Allowed an atrocity to be perpetrated? Is that what you're saying mas? That the dutch have blood on their hands? Or are you saying it's justified because they were "mujahadeen"?

510 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 6:41:52pm
511 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 6:57:03pm

re: #510 mas056

This thread is about a Serbian genocidal thug. No one here has denied that the Balkans war was a bloody affair, although some have felt the need to make excuses for the Serbians.

512 JHW  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 7:00:56pm

I'll take the liberty of recommending another book that illustrated the absurdity of living in the nearly unbearable zoo that was the Soviet Union, written by a well connected intellectual, Nadezhda Mandelstam.

Nadezhda means "hope" in Russian. And Nadezhda Mandelstam, wife of Osip Mandelstam, one of the greatest Russian poets of the 20th century, is aptly named, for it is hope alone that seems to have buoyed her strength during very trying times. In this, the first of two volumes of her memoirs, she offers a harrowing account of the last four years she spent with her late husband. She re-creates in terse, stripped-to-the-bone sentences the atmosphere of intense paranoia that enveloped Russia's literary intelligentsia. In 1933, Osip had written a lighthearted satire ridiculing Stalin. It proved to be a 16-line death sentence. Nadezhda recalls the night the secret police came for him: "There was a sharp, unbearably explicit knock on the door. 'They've come for Osip,' I said." He was arrested, interrogated, exiled, and eventually rearrested. Nadezhda chronicles each turn of event, describing her feelings of heartbreak and joy with self-effacing discipline. Not only does Mandelstam write with the vitality and insight of the classic Russian novelists, she is far too selfless to write an account of her own travails. Instead, she acts as witness to a society's. Similarly, although Osip's mind became unbalanced by his ordeal in prison, his spirit remained unbroken; it is this liberating, imaginative force that Nadezhda celebrates in Hope Against Hope. --Lilian Pizzichini, Amazon.co.uk
Hope Against Hope

513 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 7:01:00pm
514 JHW  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 7:03:27pm

re: #512 JHW

Oops, sorry wrong thread,Firefox tabs, thought I was on the Solzhenitsyn thread.Rinse and repeat.

515 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 7:04:03pm

re: #513 mas056

So you don't deny you're making excuses for Serbian atrocities?

516 mas056[deleted]  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 7:36:14pm
517 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 7:36:38pm

Where's A. van Hilten when we need him?

518 mas056  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 7:38:02pm

re: #515 Sharmuta

"So you don't deny you're making excuses for Serbian atrocities?"

...no more than you and your bud make excuses for muslim and croat atrocities....

519 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 7:39:02pm

re: #516 mas056

So you make excuses for not only their atrocities against their neighbors, but you make excuses for them burning embassies. Disgusting.

520 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 7:39:49pm

re: #518 mas056

Please point out a single post of mine excusing atrocities committed by anyone.

521 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 7:40:05pm

Thanks, Charles!

522 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 8:07:46pm

re: #521 Sharmuta

Oh man!

To everyone reading this thread it will seem like you and I were having a weird hallucinatory conversation with an imaginary troll... Almost all his traces are gone.

Hahahah!

523 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 8:23:15pm

re: #522 medaura18586

Poor Stinky. Sorry if my #10 has caused so many problems. Not sure if it's a good thing or bad thing though to out Serbian apologists.

524 medaura18586  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:35:54pm

re: #523 Sharmuta

Your #10 pulled them out of the dark woods... couldn't resist trolling it up for the mass murderer!

525 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 3, 2008 9:39:39pm

re: #524 medaura18586

I guess so! I'm still a bit bothered though that it would have been given a pass if it had been another nationality.

526 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:56:11am

re: #517 medaura18586

Where's A. van Hilten when we need him?

Late to the party, as usual.


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