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Totten: An Israeli in Kosovo

Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 8:38:41 pm PDT

Another must-read piece from Michael Totten: An Israeli in Kosovo.

Imagine what would happen to a handful of Jewish veterans of the Israel Defense Forces who tried to move from Tel Aviv to an Arab country to open a bistro and bar. In only a few countries could they even get through the airport without being deported or, more likely, arrested. If they were somehow able to finagle a permit from the bureaucracy and operate openly as Israelis in an Arab capital, they wouldn’t last long. Somebody would almost certainly kill them even if the state left them alone.

Kosovo is a Muslim-majority country, but it isn’t Arab. The ethnic Albanians who make up around 90 percent of the population reject out of hand the vicious war-mongering anti-Semitism that still boils in the Middle East. Israelis can open a bistro and bar in Kosovo without someone coming to get them or even harassing them. Shachar Caspi, co-owner of the Odyssea Bistro and the Odyssea Bakery, proves it.

Caspi’s bistro is in the hip, bohemian, and stylish Pejton neighborhood in the city center of Kosovo’s capital Prishtina. A huge number of café bars that look expensive but are actually cheap make up the core of the area. The hyper-local economy in Pejton is apparently based on fashionably dressed young people selling espresso and alcoholic beverages to each other. If you ever visit Prishtina, book a hotel room in that neighborhood. ...

The Israeli contribution to the local food and drink scene isn’t a secret. I found Caspi’s establishment in the Bradt Guide which lists Odyssea as Israeli-owned. I knew already that Kosovo is friendlier to Israel than most countries in the world – especially compared with other Muslim-majority countries – but I was still slightly surprised to see this. It only takes one Islamist fanatic to blow up a bistro. And it would only take a small amount of the right kind of threatening pressure to drive Caspi, his business partners, and his employees out of town or at least underground. But nothing like this has happened.

“People know you are Israeli?” I said.

“Of course,” he said. “Of course. Everybody knows we are Israelis.”

“Nobody cares?” I said.

“On the contrary,” he said, “people like it. They come to speak to us. They want to be in contact. Here I didn’t see anybody that was negative. On the contrary the people are very warm, very nice. They take Islam to a beautiful place. Not a violent place. When they hear I am from Israel they react very warmly.”

Lots of Kosovar Albanians confirmed what Caspi is saying.

“Kosovars used to identify with the Palestinians because we Albanians are Muslims and Christians and we saw Serbia and Israel both as usurpers of land,“ a prominent Kosovar recent told journalist Stephen Schwartz. ”Then we looked at a map and woke up. Israelis have a population of six million, their backs to the sea, and 300 million Arab enemies. Albanians have a total population of eight million, our backs to the sea, and 200 million Slav enemies. So why should we identify with the Arabs?”

“Israelis are okay,” said a waiter named Afrim Kostrati at a cafe named Tirana. “The conflict is not our problem. We are Muslims, but not really. We have respect for Israelis because of the U.S. I have good friends from there.”

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307 comments

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1 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:40:20pm

This is a must read. I dearly wish I had known some of this information the other night. Lizards- please read it all!

2 Shug  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:42:29pm
Then we looked at a map and woke up.

Quick : Maps to College Campuses STAT!

3 Mars Needs Neocons  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:43:51pm

This is just incredible.

4 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:44:34pm

Islam is not monolithic.

5 ggt  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:44:59pm

Good Evening Lizards! The conditions on Lake Superior are calm and serene.

How are you-all this evening?

6 Macker  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:46:29pm

I sure hope that waiter has Fatwa Insurance....

7 Yankee Division Son  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:46:59pm

On this day in History, August 4th, 1944..

NETHERLANDS: Amsterdam: The Gestapo, acting on tip from a Dutch informer, captures 15-year-old Jewish diarist Anne Frank and her family in a sealed-off area of an Amsterdam warehouse at Prinsengracht 263; two of the Christians who had helped shelter them are also arrested. The Franks had taken shelter there in 1942 out of fear of deportation to a concentration camp. They occupied the small space with another Jewish family and a single Jewish man, and were aided by former Christian employees of Otto Frank and other Dutch friends who brought them food and supplies. Anne spent much of her time in the "secret annex" working on her diary which survived the war, overlooked by the Gestapo that discovered the hiding place. They are sent to a concentration camp in Holland, and in September Anne and most of the others are shipped to Auschwitz in Poland. In the fall of 1944, Anne and her sister Margot are moved to Bergen-Belsen in Germany; both sisters catch typhus and die in early March 1945, two months before the camp was liberated by British forces. Anne's father Otto Frank is the only one of the 10 to survive. After the war, he returns to Amsterdam via the Soviet Union, and is reunited with Miep Gies, one of his former employees who had helped shelter him. She handed him Anne's diary and in 1947, the diary is published by Otto in its original Dutch as "Diary of a Young Girl." (Jack McKillop)

8 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:47:23pm
“Israelis are okay,” said a waiter named Afrim Kostrati at a cafe named Tirana. “The conflict is not our problem. We are Muslims, but not really. We have respect for Israelis because of the U.S. I have good friends from there.”

But we are hated by the world.

Quick - someone get an Obama sticker and place it over that guy's mouth.

/

9 Macker  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:47:28pm

re: #5 ggt

Good Evening Lizards! The conditions on Lake Superior are calm and serene.

And colder than shit too I'll bet!

10 Syrah  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:47:50pm

A canary in a coal mine.

11 Karridine  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:49:08pm

Israelis happily answering questions in Muslim Prishtina?

GREAT!

"What's that golden-domed building on Mount Carmel?"

12 jaunte  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:51:01pm

re: #5 ggt

Hi ggt. In Houston right now it's 86 degrees, 61% humidity, and we're just sitting and waiting for Hurricane Ed(ouard) to come and knock the power out for awhile.

13 Mich-again  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:51:16pm

Great story. My neighbors across the street are secular Muslim Albanians from Montenegro and they are a really cool family. The parents are immigrants. The kids are completely American. When the relatives from the old world come to visit, they always seem to enjoy it here. I think the olny part of Islam they hold on to is that the kids won't eat pepperonis on Pizza. When they come and we are having Pizza, we order a cheese only for them.

14 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:51:33pm
Albanians did shelter Jews during the Nazi occupation, more than any other people in Europe.

More than half survived the Nazi occupation of Kosovo because so many Albanians sheltered them from the Nazi authorities. According to Dan Michman, Chief Historian at Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, there were three times as many Jews in Albania at the end of the Holocaust than at the beginning. Albanians were well-known at the time as a friendly population who could be trusted. They refused to surrender Albanian Jews, and they refused to surrender Jewish refugees from elsewhere in Europe.

This is very impressive.

15 Yankee Division Son  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:51:45pm

Also on this day, August 4th, 1892

Andrew and Abby Borden of Fall River Massachusetts were axed to death in their home. Lizzie Borden, Andrew's daughter from a previous marriage was accused, tried, and later acquitted of the crime.

16 jcm  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:55:22pm

Such things give one hope.

(the real deal, not the snake oil version)

17 Cartman  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:58:33pm

On this day, in 1923, my Dad was born. He's with God now.

Happy Birthday, Pop!

18 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 8:59:49pm

re: #4 experiencedtraveller

Islam is not monolithic.

Indeed- if islam is ever going to moderate, is it places like Kosovo where we should look and offer support and encouragement.

19 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:00:17pm
We are Muslims, but not really. We have respect for Israelis because of the U.S. I have good friends from there.”

But not really.

This says a lot.

20 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:00:20pm
“Israelis are okay,” said a waiter named Afrim Kostrati at a cafe named Tirana. “The conflict is not our problem. We are Muslims, but not really. We have respect for Israelis because of the U.S. I have good friends from there.”

When reached for comment, Pat Buchanan had this to say: "Git offa my gotdamn lawn, ya fuckin' neo-cons"!

///

21 Syrah  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:01:01pm

re: #19 Ojoe

But not really.

This says a lot.

It shouts it.

22 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:01:45pm

re: #15 Yankee Division Son

Lizzie Borden took an ax
And gave her father 40 whacks
And when she saw what she had done
She gave her mother 41

(schoolyard rhyme)

23 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:02:08pm
24 yochanan  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:02:15pm

the albanians seem to be pro american they even gave President Bush a great reception last year as they know it was america that created kosava. problem is that the saudi are also spreading there hate. look at macadonia were the saudi are pushing out the sufi who were the majority in the albanian muslim population

25 brainwizard73  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:03:42pm

re: #19 Ojoe

You mean liking the US and Israel and Islam could be mutually exclusive?

You know what is coming here, right?

26 ggt  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:03:57pm

re: #9 Macker

No not really, warmish and humid. It cooled off from today, which was hotter than h@ll.

27 yochanan  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:04:12pm

re: #9 Macker

and you know the temp. of shit?

28 JSK1121  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:04:26pm

An article like this is just begging the Saudis to start exporting Wahhabism to a seemingly moderate place like this. In 20 years, those Jews will either be out of there or dead because of Wahhabism.

29 itellu3times  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:04:35pm

I'm sure a care package is even now on its way from our partners in peace in Riyadh to celebrate this lovely, peaceful scenario.

30 itellu3times  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:05:01pm

lordy, everyone with the same ugly thought, how sad

31 ggt  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:05:02pm

re: #12 jaunte

hey jaunte -- hope it fizzles out before it reaches you.

32 JSK1121  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:05:42pm

re: #30 itellu3times

lordy, everyone with the same ugly thought, how sad

I know! We're far too cynical here (probably for the better).

33 Yankee Division Son  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:07:03pm

re: #22 Ojoe

Lizzie Borden took an ax
And gave her father 40 whacks
And when she saw what she had done
She gave her mother 41

(schoolyard rhyme)

The rhyme was made up by a writer as a way to sell newspapers even though in reality her stepmother suffered 19 blows, her father 11.

34 yochanan  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:07:08pm

totten had a piece about Macadonia which isn't even majority muslim were the saudi are sending big bucks and have major effects. were the local muslims who are sufi are being oppressed by the saudi funded jihadists.

35 jaunte  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:07:46pm

re: #31 ggt

Oh, I think it'll be wind and heavy rain all the way up to Austin, but we usually just call that 'Fall.'

36 ggt  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:07:54pm

WEll, it's been short and weet --

Have a great evening all, I have an early wake-up call to tour a lighthouse on the Apostle Islands.

Report tomorrow night.

37 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:08:40pm

re: #25 brainwizard73

Conversions to some sensible religion I think.

Or hope.

(Hope and Change.)

OT
Today's Astronomy Picture of the Day

Good Night All.

38 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:09:10pm

re: #28 JSK1121

In order for that to succeed, there has to be an audience. Reading this article, it seems as though the wahabbis will have a difficult time convincing the Kosovars that America and Israel are not their friends. We should work to keep it that way.

39 brainwizard73  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:09:20pm

re: #37 Ojoe

Well put. Good evening, then.

40 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:09:43pm

re: #33 Yankee Division Son

40 whacks has a nice ring to it...

G'nite

41 StudSupreme  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:10:49pm

Kosovo may indeed be very secular.
However - I understand that Hezbollah started infiltrating Bosnia in the mid 90's and started to radicalize some of the muslims there. I would bet that their influence is still felt.
Also: from what I hear, the Umma loves to spread the myth that the Western powers and in particular the USA strongly sided with the Serbians and supported them in their attempt to exterminate Muslims in Bosnia, when of course the exact opposite is true.

42 Attaboid  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:10:50pm

A salami, I like' um.
/cynic

43 itellu3times  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:12:00pm

re: #37 Ojoe

OT Today's Astronomy Picture of the Day

I keep a link to apod on my home page.

Great picture, what a beautiful universe this can be ... when you're a sufficient number of light years from the violence!

44 JSK1121  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:13:12pm

re: #38 Sharmuta

In order for that to succeed, there has to be an audience. Reading this article, it seems as though the wahabbis will have a difficult time convincing the Kosovars that America and Israel are not their friends. We should work to keep it that way.

Money talks, diplomacy walks...Or something like that.

45 jcm  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:13:49pm

re: #37 Ojoe

OT
Today's Astronomy Picture of the Day

Good Night All.

The lack of globular clusters and turtles......

46 Edouard  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:13:59pm

Hello. My name is Edouard. I’m a nasty tropical storm.

My purpose on this earth has been to test your offshore oil production technology and to demonstrate that America’s Gulf of Mexico oil industry need not fear the likes of me.

I'm blasting and crashing and blowing. And the rigs off the Gulf Coast are coming through like champs. Don't worry.

Above all, by all means don't allow the deranged, technologically illiterate enviro-wackos of America derail the vital work of increasing domestic oil production merely out of fear of me or my brother and sister storms. You are Americans, and your offshore rigs are the world's best.

--Sincerely, Edouard

P.S. I was not created by "man-made global warming"

47 Yankee Division Son  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:16:21pm

re: #40 Ojoe

It does ryme better, have to admit..

nite!

48 Macker  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:16:28pm

re: #43 itellu3times

I keep a link to apod on my home page.

Great picture, what a beautiful universe this can be ... when you're a sufficient number of light years from the violence!

Have I been watching too much Battlestar Galactica?

/snicker

49 jcm  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:16:33pm

re: #46 Edouard

Hello. My name is Edouard. I’m a nasty tropical storm.

My purpose on this earth has been to test your offshore oil production technology and to demonstrate that America’s Gulf of Mexico oil industry need not fear the likes of me.

I'm blasting and crashing and blowing. And the rigs off the Gulf Coast are coming through like champs. Don't worry.

Above all, by all means don't allow the deranged, technologically illiterate enviro-wackos of America derail the vital work of increasing domestic oil production merely out of fear of me or my brother and sister storms. You are Americans, and your offshore rigs are the world's best.

--Sincerely, Edouard

P.S. I was not created by "man-made global warming"

But we know Rove controls Bush's weather machine!

50 Palandine  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:17:01pm

re: #7 Yankee Division Son

Reading The Diary of Anne Frank was so powerful for me in my youth. I could just imagine the fear, the silence, the claustrophobia. It's an astonishing book.

51 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:17:05pm

"Then we looked at a map"

It is just delicious to hear common sense now and again. G-d bless the hard-nosed, sensible people of the world...

Michael should have gotten pictures of the guy with his girlfriend. If she's so hot, we want to see! ;)

52 talon_262  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:17:22pm

re: #46 Edouard

What a fortunate (or unfortunate, in regards to TS Edouard) nick you have...

;-)

53 brainwizard73  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:17:42pm

re: #46 Edouard

You must not have gotten the memo:

President Obama says "this is the moment" that the seas and sky will begin to heal, so you'll have to head south of the border where they are still to ignorant to elect Barack Obama as their leader.

54 Ledger1  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:17:45pm

This article gives hope.

But, I notice that Totten explains that Israel owes the USA for help given to them. Further, a lot of Muslims have now seen what the US Armed Forces can do in an Islamic country.

I wonder exactly how much of the USA show of force has tempered Muslims who do business with Israel.

A little? A lot? Somewhere in between? Who knows?

Totten’s article is uplifting but I suspect there are other factors in play.

55 jaunte  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:18:36pm

re: #50 Palandine

I visited the Frank house, in Amsterdam. A very moving experience; it was difficult to breathe inside.

56 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:20:18pm

re: #44 JSK1121

You'll forgive me if I don't join you in your pessimistic outlook. I don't think these people want to be radicalized. They are sympathetic to Israel and love America. If you read the article, clearly there are Israelis in Kosovo providing jobs- I think that will go further than saudi money offering death for a cause the Kosovars are not sympathetic to.

57 pat  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:20:40pm

Cool story.

58 Cartman  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:20:48pm

re: #49 jcm

But we know Rove controls Bush's weather machine!

I'll bet GWB winces a little each hurricane season. He knows that no matter what happens, the left will blame it on him. He's probably relieved this is his last one.

59 faraway  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:21:17pm

OT, but who are we at war with in Iraq? Can't be the Iraqis, they're our ally.

Is the war over and they forgot to tell us?

/rotating title?

60 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:24:26pm

Thought-provoking article, Totten!

61 JSK1121  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:25:01pm

re: #56 Sharmuta

You'll forgive me if I don't join you in your pessimistic outlook. I don't think these people want to be radicalized. They are sympathetic to Israel and love America. If you read the article, clearly there are Israelis in Kosovo providing jobs- I think that will go further than saudi money offering death for a cause the Kosovars are not sympathetic to.

I'd love to think that you're right, but history has shown me that violent, Islamic forces have been very convincing in radicalizing historically moderate populations. With Islam's sexually repressive ideology, penchant for violence and vast quantities of oil money, I can't imagine Kosovo's moderate men would be that high of a hurdle to climb for the Wahhabis.

62 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:25:16pm

Pamela and Robert Spencer have been railing against Totten's discussion of moderate Muslims. I expected as much from Pamela but hoped for better from Mr. Spencer.
/I hope I'm not causing trouble here. Just sayin'.

63 wannabuyaduck  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:27:15pm

re: #23 buzzsawmonkey

--from some musical comedy or other

The Fall River Historical Society says it is from the Broadway musical "New Faces of 1952." I remember hearing it on a Chad Mitchell Trio recording during the days of Folk Music. "You know how neighbors love to criticize."

64 judahsabre  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:29:02pm

There is something else behind this that neither Totten nor his interviewees mention (unless it's in the full piece, which I haven't read). In the late 1990's, after the peace was signed, and Muslims were still living in refugee camps, Israel sent aid of all kinds, and people to administer it. (I have a friend who participated in this and described the work in some detail at the time; it involved everything from distributing food, blankets and shoes to playing basketball with the teenage kids and finding ways to entertain the younger ones.) They did not fly an Israeli flag in deference to potential sensitivities, but pretty much everyone knew where they were from, and deeply appreciated what they were doing. Clearly that feeling lingers.

65 itellu3times  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:30:38pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Pamela and Robert Spencer have been railing against Totten's discussion of moderate Muslims. I expected as much from Pamela but hoped for better from Mr. Spencer.
/I hope I'm not causing trouble here. Just sayin'.

Hmm.

Well, it's right around what we were all saying above.

Saudis with too much money instituting a jihad against peace and tolerance. So, in Kosovo, we have temporarily outbid them. Will it last?

66 Mars Needs Neocons  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:30:46pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Pamela and Robert Spencer have been railing against Totten's discussion of moderate Muslims. I expected as much from Pamela but hoped for better from Mr. Spencer.
/I hope I'm not causing trouble here. Just sayin'.

It does seem a bit off. But, I've read Spencer and he really pulls the veil away from Islam, maybe he sees something we don't. Or he doesn't want people in this country confusing a rare abberation with the general behavior of Islam. After all, many here in this country still think its the "Religion of Peace"

67 stevieray  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:33:25pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Once upon a time, America was the Greatest Place on Earth to the Kuwaitis. That lasted for what... about a year? Maybe two?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

Friendship between nations can be a fickle thing. I hope the Kosovars keep the love alive... but I'll wait and see what time brings.

68 Mars Needs Neocons  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:36:10pm

re: #67 stevieray

Once upon a time, America was the Greatest Place on Earth to the Kuwaitis. That lasted for what... about a year? Maybe two?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

Friendship between nations can be a fickle thing. I hope the Kosovars keep the love alive... but I'll wait and see what time brings.

My friends that are over there say that in general the Kuwaitis still love us. There's always going to be nuts in the trail mix.

69 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:37:22pm

re: #66 Mars Needs Neocons

I find it odd that he would give space to a article attacking Totten. I really think Totten is right on this one; he's been to the area and know what's going on. For Spencer to give space to some arm chair idiot who's never been to the region seems odd to me. Kosovo is going to be a strong a reliable ally to the US, I don't think there's much doubt about that. Spencer is wrong on this one.

70 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:38:48pm

re: #67 stevieray

Kosovo and Albania have been very strong supporters of the US for quite some time. I don't expect that to change anytime soon.

71 Mars Needs Neocons  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:40:13pm

re: #69 Killgore Trout

I find it odd that he would give space to a article attacking Totten. I really think Totten is right on this one; he's been to the area and know what's going on. For Spencer to give space to some arm chair idiot who's never been to the region seems odd to me. Kosovo is going to be a strong a reliable ally to the US, I don't think there's much doubt about that. Spencer is wrong on this one.

It is odd, and you are right. Just trying to see if I can figure out what he's thinking. I'd hate to see Spencer go the way of some other conservatives and embrace radical fringe ideas.

72 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:41:51pm

re: #71 Mars Needs Neocons

I'd hate to see Spencer go the way of some other conservatives and embrace radical fringe ideas.


I have incurred Mr. Spencer's wrath in the past for implying otherwise. I respect him but I'm afraid he's leaning towards the dark side.

73 Salamantis  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:43:55pm

Michael J. Totten is one of the three bloggers whom I most respect; the other two are Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit and our own Charles Johnson.

74 Mars Needs Neocons  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:45:56pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

I have incurred Mr. Spencer's wrath in the past for implying otherwise. I respect him but I'm afraid he's leaning towards the dark side.

sad

75 solomonpanting  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:49:04pm
The hyper-local economy in Pejton is apparently based on fashionably dressed young people selling espresso and alcoholic beverages to each other.

Another sign they lack the fanaticism of Islamists.

76 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:53:03pm

re: #74 Mars Needs Neocons

It is a bummer but it's just a guess on my part. I think the moderate Muslims of Kosovo are something to be celebrated and supported, other people feel differently.

77 Mars Needs Neocons  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:55:05pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

It is a bummer but it's just a guess on my part. I think the moderate Muslims of Kosovo are something to be celebrated and supported, other people feel differently.

I agree. And when I was in Kuwait, what I saw gave me a lot of hope. They are there it's just hard to find them sometimes. (Moderates)

78 stevieray  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:56:31pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Kosovo and Albania have been very strong supporters of the US for quite some time. I don't expect that to change anytime soon.


Like I said, I hope they keep the love alive. We'll see if that happens. And more importantly, we'll see if their attitude can spread. But if the rest of the Islamic world agrees with this sentiment, "We are Muslims, but not really", then their sway will be limited.

We shall see.

79 realwest  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 9:57:31pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout
" other people feel differently." Not me.
Very good posts on this Killgore, thank you.

80 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 10:12:15pm

re: #79 realwest

Thanks, Bud. I find it difficult to tread lightly and be diplomatic at times. Much appreciated.

81 Mars Needs Neocons  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 10:14:07pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Thanks, Bud. I find it difficult to tread lightly and be diplomatic at times. Much appreciated.

I think you have the right of this, and I think if the thread weren't dead, you'd have a lot of agreement.

82 realwest  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 10:58:27pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout
Hey ya know you coulda taken that over to the new thread - actually I wish you had so more folks woulda seen it.
And being diplomatic and nice is a gentleman's way to do it, wherever possible. Out here you did do great and I'm proud of you! (ah, sorry, that last bit there was really presumptous, and I apologize.).

83 Karridine  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 11:00:40pm

re: #23 buzzsawmonkey

No, it was from the Chad Mitchell Trio singing "Ballad of Lizzie Borden", Buzz

84 Ron Bacardi  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 11:01:26pm

I wonder what he really meant by "we're Muslim, but not really"

85 Mars Needs Neocons  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 11:03:32pm

re: #84 Ron Bacardi

I wonder what he really meant by "we're Muslim, but not really"

I've got an idea. From my talks in the ME, you have the Saudis who consider themselves very islam (with a few exceptions), and the Kuwaitis who consider themselves Islamic (to a point). I would say this is a similar situation. They follow the precepts of Islam that they feel fit them. And no more.

86 Scion9  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 11:15:31pm

A recent link to a Spencer article that shows his probable line of thinking...

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/022 054.php

The clash here is between the Saudi authorities, who style themselves as the guardians of what is Islamically correct, and secular Turkish culture, which is comprised largely of Muslims acting in ways that cannot be justified by Islamic law. This befuddles Westerners, who see self-identified Muslims living as modern Westerners in Turkey and jump to all sorts of conclusions about Islam and its compatibility with secularism, pluralism, and democracy -- conclusions that have no warrant.

Spreading tales of moderate Muslims is part of the multiculture strategem that popularized the whole Religion of Peace meme. As others have said, there are moderate Muslims but no moderate Islam.

The Kosovars are Muslims, but not really; from their own mouths. Spencer was likely just trying to pull away the veil from yet another positive piece on Muslims that litter our papers and magazines to show that their behavior is not exemplary of Muslims in general; that to be appealing to western audiences they have to not keep the faith in the way that the Saudis do.

That it isn't Osama Bin Laden 'corrupting' Islam. It is the Turks and the Kosovars et ceterra. At least in this article Totten went out of his way to put in a quote from a Kosovar Muslim that knows this exact thing to be true.

The real issue at hand is that unfortunately Spencer is on the fringe for telling it like it is, and a lot of other 'conservative' bloggers, journalists and politicians are actively working against him and deliberately obscure the truth about Islam. I can't blame him for 'attacking' Totten, considering how few voices (especially credible ones) that are decrying the insidious Islamic agenda, instead of holding it up as 'The Religion of Peace'.

87 Age Of Freedom  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 11:16:15pm

Impressive and encouraging.

But hopeless in the bigger scope when measured in comparison to the rest of the Islamic world, especially the Arab - the creators of Islam - whom the Albanians strongly disassociate from.

That said, I wish this version will overrule the current vile/evil one.
Dreaming is good, but generally tends to be unrealistic.

88 Throbert McGee  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 11:39:08pm

One portion of the article that should possibly be taken with a grain of salt:

“Kosovars used to identify with the Palestinians because we Albanians are Muslims and Christians and we saw Serbia and Israel both as usurpers of land,“ a prominent Kosovar recent told journalist Stephen Schwartz. ”Then we looked at a map and woke up. Israelis have a population of six million, their backs to the sea, and 300 million Arab enemies. Albanians have a total population of eight million, our backs to the sea, and 200 million Slav enemies. So why should we identify with the Arabs?”

This is an anonymous, secondhand quote that comes via Stephen Schwartz -- a convert to Sufi Islam who has a vested interest (and long history) in portraying Muslim intolerance as a historic anomaly inflicted on Islam mainly by the Wahabbist Saudis.

Furthermore, where does the (unnamed) "prominent Kosovar" get his/her figure of "200 million Slav enemies"?

One possible answer: this person takes for granted that all or most Slavs everywhere hate the Kosovars for being non-Slavic and/or for being heavily Muslim. To put it mildly, if that's the mentality shaping the worldview of this prominent Kosovar, he/she is part of the problem, not part of the solution -- even if he/she is nominally pro-Israel.

89 Throbert McGee  Mon, Aug 4, 2008 11:56:22pm

Another telling detail not to be overlooked in that quote that comes via Stephen Scwartz:

"Kosovars used to identify with the Palestinians because we Albanians are Muslims and Christians and we saw Serbia and Israel both as usurpers of land,"

In my opinion, the first highlighted phrase makes a lie of the second one -- that the speaker ostensibly considers Israel's primary "sin" (and a sin that Israel has in common with Serbia) to be the usurpation of someone else's land.

But if this were the speaker's only significant grudge against Israel, it would've been quite unnecessary to point out that Albanians are "Muslims and Christians" (after all, most ethnic Serbs are at least nominally Christian). That is, the sin of usurping land would've been reason enough for Albanians (who see themselves as victims of land-usupers) to distrust both Serbia and Israel.

In short, I suspect that the anonymous Kosovar is a Muslim trying to pull the familiar Muslim stunt of sucking up to Christians while shutting out the Jews, in the naive belief that 21st-century Christendom continues to hate Jews with the same obsession that 21st-century Islam does.

90 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:10:06am

re: #1 Sharmuta

This is a must read. I dearly wish I had known some of this information the other night. Lizards- please read it all!

The fact that this comment has garnered only two updings so far speaks volumes, IMO.

91 Throbert McGee  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:17:45am

re: #90 A. van Hilten

The fact that this comment has garnered only two updings so far speaks volumes, IMO.

I don't believe that you should read "volumes" into this fact, since lots of worthwhile comments never get updings.

92 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:31:05am

re: #24 yochanan

the albanians seem to be pro american they even gave President Bush a great reception last year as they know it was america that created kosava. problem is that the saudi are also spreading there hate. look at macadonia were the saudi are pushing out the sufi who were the majority in the albanian muslim population

This is news... When did you stop defending Karadzic?

FYI, those Saudis (i.e. wahabis) are driving sufis away with the acquiescence of the government of "macadonia":

Wahhabis in Macedonia are vagrant and pathetic mercenaries recruited by the terror-financiers of al-Qaida, based on plentiful distribution of Saudi oil cash and pretexts derived from the dogma preached in the Saudi kingdom, where Wahhabism, the most extreme and violent form of Sunni Islam, remains the state religion.

These disreputable elements have an agenda: to spread the Wahhabi-incited Sunni terror, now shaking Iraq, throughout the Muslim world. In addition to hating Shia Muslims, the Wahhabis also bear a genocidal enmity against Sufis. In 2002, after a brief ethnic conflict in Macedonia, the Wahhabis saw a weak link and chose to test it: armed with Kalashnikovs and pistols, they seized one of the buildings in the Harabati Teqe from the Sufis who administered it.

The Sufis appealed to the Macedonian government, to opposition politicians, to foreign diplomats, and to others for help, without avail. The Macedonian authorities argued that since property titles had not been clarified in the aftermath of Yugoslav Communism, the controversy could not be quickly resolved. In the intervening period, the Wahhabi occupiers, still backed up with guns, have seized more structures at the Harabati location. They took over one building and turned it into a so-called mosque, from which they blast out a muddy-sounding recording of the Muslim call to prayer, delivered by a man who seems not even to know the correct order of the recitation, in a failing, croaking voice. They occupied another of the central monuments, which had large glass windows, and covered them with black paper on the argument that women would pray there and did not want to be observed. They also began cutting down trees on the property, a violation of the Sufi practice of respect for growing things.

[Link: www.islamicpluralism.org...]

Macadonia nuts, coming to a mosque near you soon!

PS: The government of Macedonia is not Muslim. Why would they favor wahabism over the more palatable sufi version of Islam—in order to be able to demonize their secular Muslim population more easily, maybe?

93 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:33:01am

re: #91 Throbert McGee

I don't believe that you should read "volumes" into this fact, since lots of worthwhile comments never get updings.

Well, I happen to see it as part of a trend that has been already established along these threads dealing with the former Yugoslavia.

94 Age Of Freedom  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:36:32am

re: #89 Throbert McGee

I agree.

95 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:01:56am

re: #28 JSK1121

An article like this is just begging the Saudis to start exporting Wahhabism to a seemingly moderate place like this. In 20 years, those Jews will either be out of there or dead because of Wahhabism.

That's the thing... They've tried and failed so far, because Kosovars aren't interested in going back to the stone age. Unlike the Disco Institute, incidentally. So it could well be the case that creationism will be taught as "science" in US public schools (*alongside* the wahabi version) in twenty years, while Kosovars continue to enjoy the advantages of a secularized Islam... This may look like something out of the Twilight Zone today, but if zealots have their way, you can rest assured that it will be the case in less than twenty years from now.

Of course, you don't think only "Islam-lite" is susceptible to being subverted by bigots, do you? There are lots of people talking about "demonic possessions," who otherwise seem to be normal, rational fellows (or ex-posters), yet they have little to envy I'm-a-dinner-jacket when it comes to their one size fits all religious worldview. Alas, this kind of my way or the highway approach to religion is not restricted to Islam.

96 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:07:18am

re: #34 yochanan

totten had a piece about Macadonia which isn't even majority muslim were the saudi are sending big bucks and have major effects. were the local muslims who are sufi are being oppressed by the saudi funded jihadists.

Yes, with the acquiescence of the Macedonian government, which is majority Christian Orthodox:

Religion
The majority (64.7%) of the population belongs to the Macedonian Orthodox Church (which declared autocephaly in 1968, that is still not recognised by the Serbian and other Eastern Orthodox Churches, although the Archbishop's Council of the Serbian Orthodox Church, with Decision No. 06/1959, has recognised the autonomy of the Macedonian Orthodox Church [48] Muslims comprise 33.3% of the population and other Christian denominations comprise 0.37%. The remainder (1.63%) is recorded as "unspecified" in the 2002 national census.[49] Most of the native Albanians, Turks and Bosniaks are Muslims, as are a minority of the country's ethnic Macedonian population, known as Macedonian Muslims. Altogether, there are more than 1200 churches and 400 mosques in the country. The Orthodox and Islamic religious communities have secondary religion schools in Skopje. There is an Orthodox theological college in the capital. Macedonia has the largest proportion of Muslims of any country in Europe after Turkey, Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Go figure.

97 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:21:20am

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Pamela and Robert Spencer have been railing against Totten's discussion of moderate Muslims. I expected as much from Pamela but hoped for better from Mr. Spencer.
/I hope I'm not causing trouble here. Just sayin'.

The question is: Are Kosovars moderate because their lack of observance? Is it impossible to actually practice Islam in any meaningful way while keeping it moderate? Could Sufi Islam be the answer to the latter?

In any case, this is an academic question. The end result is secular Muslims (whether moderate or Muslim-lite) pose no threat to anybody.

98 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:30:43am

re: #65 itellu3times

Hmm.

Well, it's right around what we were all saying above.

Saudis with too much money instituting a jihad against peace and tolerance. So, in Kosovo, we have temporarily outbid them. Will it last?

No we havent. Unless by we you're actually referring to the local population of Kosovo.

They didn't need anybody teaching them Western values to embrace peace and tolerance (and scantily-clad women and alcohol). They did this all by themselves, which makes it all the more relevant.

If anything, it's the communists you have to thank for that.

99 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:35:21am

re: #66 Mars Needs Neocons

It does seem a bit off. But, I've read Spencer and he really pulls the veil away from Islam, maybe he sees something we don't. Or he doesn't want people in this country confusing a rare abberation with the general behavior of Islam. After all, many here in this country still think its the "Religion of Peace"

Or maybe he needs to generate controversy because it's good for the business. Just another possibility.

The thing is there's no need to downplay the success that is Kosovo in order to acknowledge the threat Islamonazis pose to the rest of the world, including the Islamic world.

100 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:43:10am

re: #89 Throbert McGee

What I found interesting is the Israeli felt more comfortable in Kosovo than he did in Serbia.

re: #91 Throbert McGee

I don't believe that you should read "volumes" into this fact, since lots of worthwhile comments never get updings.

Very true- one up ding for that.

101 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:47:24am

re: #99 A. van Hilten

The thing is there's no need to downplay the success that is Kosovo in order to acknowledge the threat Islamonazis pose to the rest of the world, including the Islamic world.

And one up ding for that. Well said.

102 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:09:25am

re: #86 Scion9

A recent link to a Spencer article that shows his probable line of thinking...

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/ar chives/022054.php


Spreading tales of moderate Muslims is part of the multiculture strategem that popularized the whole Religion of Peace meme. As others have said, there are moderate Muslims but no moderate Islam.

The Kosovars are Muslims, but not really; from their own mouths. Spencer was likely just trying to pull away the veil from yet another positive piece on Muslims that litter our papers and magazines to show that their behavior is not exemplary of Muslims in general; that to be appealing to western audiences they have to not keep the faith in the way that the Saudis do.

That it isn't Osama Bin Laden 'corrupting' Islam. It is the Turks and the Kosovars et ceterra. At least in this article Totten went out of his way to put in a quote from a Kosovar Muslim that knows this exact thing to be true.

The real issue at hand is that unfortunately Spencer is on the fringe for telling it like it is, and a lot of other 'conservative' bloggers, journalists and politicians are actively working against him and deliberately obscure the truth about Islam. I can't blame him for 'attacking' Totten, considering how few voices (especially credible ones) that are decrying the insidious Islamic agenda, instead of holding it up as 'The Religion of Peace'.

But isn't this "Kosovars can't be real Muslims because real Islam is so and so" line of thought incurring in the No True Scotsman fallacy? Since they self-identify as Muslims—and the rest of the world seems to agree—why should Spencer contend otherwise?

Why does Spencer need to discredit Kosovars so badly that he allows these outlandish views to be posted at his site?

The last time someone expanded Albania for them, Albanians were so grateful that they formed two Nazi divisions to show their appreciation, rounding up Jews for Bergen-Belsen, and killing Serbs. Before that, they converted to Islam to benefit from Ottoman patronage, get higher status and get the upper hand over the Slavs. Albanians will be whatever they have to be, and the love is always conditional.

IIRC, Hungary and the Netherlands were among the leading European countries by number of foreign volunteers enlisted in the SS during WWII, so how is the Albanian contribution to the SS relevant in this regard if not to tar Albanians with the "nazi" brush (while losing every bit of credibility he had left in the process)?

This "all Albanians are nazis" canard sure does reflect badly (to put it mildly) upon Spencer and it's taken straight out of the Serbian victimhood playbook for genocidal maniacs.

It reeks of ethnic bigotry or worse.

Shame on him.

103 Forever  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:35:50am

re: #98 A. van Hilten

No we havent. Unless by we you're actually referring to the local population of Kosovo.

They didn't need anybody teaching them Western values to embrace peace and tolerance (and scantily-clad women and alcohol). They did this all by themselves, which makes it all the more relevant.

If anything, it's the communists you have to thank for that.

And you think any Lizard will take that into account? Ha Ha

104 Forever  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:40:00am

re: #89 Throbert McGee

Interesting statement. I almost forgot due all the euphoria and compliments by other comments, if the given information in the article is objective, applicable to the majority and if the quotes and people interviewed are reliable. You pointed out some discussable passages. Thanks.

105 Forever  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:43:38am

re: #102 A. van Hilten

Compared to Hungary's, Finnish, Spains, Vichy French and Japan's collaboration with the Nazi's, I don' think you can put Holland on the same level. In the end in every (occupied) country there were people hailing with the enemy.

106 Leauki  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:46:42am

"What's that golden-domed building on Mount Carmel?"

That would be a building of the University of Haifa.

The golden-domed building is on Mount Moriah.

107 Leauki  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:50:05am
I understand that Hezbollah started infiltrating Bosnia in the mid 90's and started to radicalize some of the muslims there.

That would have been Al-Qaeda or other Saudi-funded Sunni groups.

Iran's arm is long but it isn't long enough to reach Bosnia.

108 laZardo  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:27:07am

Mmm, sheer irony.

/what? It is...

109 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:35:52am

re: #105 Forever

Compared to Hungary's, Finnish, Spains, Vichy French and Japan's collaboration with the Nazi's, I don' think you can put Holland on the same level. In the end in every (occupied) country there were people hailing with the enemy.

Precisely.

The fact that Albanian nazis were able to raise two foreign volunteer SS divisions is irrelevant, yet Julia Gorin thought you should be aware of it, for some reason.

110 jcbunga  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:10:02am

I was born and raised in Dearborn, Michigan. Until the '80's it was a great upper middle class suburb of families with heritage from Italy, Poland, Hungary even Canada...but mostly "American".

Absolute best Memorial Day parade and city festivals. The drama each year was what the new Ford Mustang was gonna look like.

Today, sadly, no Israeli could open a bistro there, especially in the east and south end. #1...the bars have disappeared and have been replaced with "coffee houses". #2...the muslims there are not from Kosovo. The church bells have been replaced with the call to prayer.

I guess it's doing OK as a town, but it's just not the town I grew up in. The house I was raised in...built in 1929...has been foreclosed. It did just fine for the first two owners, the second being my mom and dad.

There have been honor killings...the girl who left her birthday party to be with friends, the girl who went out on New Years, the girl who wore blue jeans...2 were shot dead by their fathers and the third was shot dead by her brother. I'm sure there have been more.

So I guess the town is OK, but I don't know if I can say it's better. It certainly isn't what it used to be.

111 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:22:23am

In her propaganda screed over at Jihad Watch, Julia Gorin did include a link to one of her magnificent exposés (titled "Hitler in Kosovo" for some badly needed nuance) posted at Republican Riot (her site), which is almost the exact same piece she published at the Huffington Post.

Almost.

Why is that?

You'll notice that the first pic of Mr. "Hitler" giving the Nazi salute at the HufPo is MISSING from the linked post at her own site. Yep. The juiciest photo is nowhere to be found in Julia's own blog.

Now why would she do that? Maybe because that picture is also MISSING from the original travelblog—meaning Julia included the fake picture of Mr. "Hitler" in the HufPo article for effect (the "fake but accurate" doctrine, if you catch my drift).

This is Julia Gorin. A "reliable" commenter on Balkan affairs to be sure. Especially, when you consider her claims about this dude's travelblog (emphasis mine):

First, India brought you the Hitler cafe, then Croatia brought you Hitler sugar. Now, America’s Kosovo brings you Adolf Hitler himself. The text below is from a recently discovered travelblog of an adventurous young British tourist and Balkan enthusiast named Ed Alexander. He may be on the clueless side, but don’t miss a single observation he cluelessly makes, all the while defaulting to the Albanian-slash-terrorist-slash-State Department misspelling of Kosovo (”Kosova”). This takes place in southern Mitrovica, a town divided by a river into a multi-ethnic North, and a violently “purified” Albanian South

Actually, he's not "on the clueless side" and his travelblog is titled BALKAN BABY. On his blogroll, there's also a link to Americans For Serbia and his "kind host" Sasa was the source of the Hitler diner "scoop":

We crossed over into the Albanian part of town and decided to try to fulfill a plan we'd been talking about for the last couple of days. When I was in Belgrade earlier in my trip, my kind host Sasa had recounted a story about a man who owns a restaurant, used to be in the Kosova Liberation Army and believes he is Adolf Hitler incarnate. At first I had thought that Sasa was just playing with me, having a joke at my expense, but he even showed me photos that seemed to verify his story. Was this all just an elaborate joke or was there some truth in it? Either way, I was in Mitrovica so I had to at least try my hardest to find out what was going on.

How could a Serb from Belgrade have pictures of the Hitler diner in the so-called "Serb-cleansed" part of Mitrovica? Be that as it may, the fact remains that Julia Gorin inserted a picture in her HufPo piece that is absent from the original account.

[continued...]

112 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:25:23am

But most importantly, perhaps, you can also find the reason why the "Hilter" pic giving the Nazi salute is missing (and most likely fake, but certainly fake in this context) from the original:

As all of this is transpiring every so often Adolf Hitler looks across at us. He spotted our cameras when we took some photos and send the waiter over to tell us not to. He knows our game and is making sure we don't get an opportunity to get a picture of his face . . . Deciding that it would be our only chance, we asked the waitress if she would ask Hitler if we could have a photo with him, and she came back with the reply that it would cost each of us €5. Forget it Adolf, there's no way we're giving you any extra money.

In short, Julia Gorin doesn't mind making stuff up in order to make Kosovars and Albanians look terribly bad.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Naughty girl!

Too bad this is the site that "fact-checks your ass."

And why would Julia Gorin post both at Jihad Watch and the Huffington Post?

Becasue of an overriding anti-Albanian bias that's prevalent throughout her posts. That's why.

Well, just take a look at her sources:

Russell Gordon SERBIA Archive

Chris Deliso, whose work has been prominently featured in the past at "www.antiwar.com".

113 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:42:14am

Also, there's at least one diehard Chetnik apologist praising Julia Gorin's "journalistic integrity" and attacking LGF in the comments section over at Spencer's site:

good article as usual from Julia Gorin. Can anyone figure out why littlegreenfootballs, which links to jihadwatch is an apologist site for balkan jihadists?

I've been banned from lgf repeatedly for stating nothing other than truth on these issues.

It's VERY fishy.

Posted by: jimbob22 at May 10, 2008 7:42 PM

Apologists for balkan jihadists, Christian bashers... Is there no level we won't stoop to?

114 opinionated  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 5:59:57am

Ironic that the Muslims in Kosovo are learning that Israelis are not all that bad.

Something Condi Rice has yet to learn.

Remember how Rice browbeat Israel to allow several Gaza "students" to come to the US when Israel had security concerns, well, guess what..

Looks like we don't want them in the US

U.S. Nixes Visas after Pushing Israel To Clear Students

(IsraelNN.com) The American State Department has refused visas to three of seven Gaza students who were given clearance by Israel after American pressure to give them a clearance to leave Gaza to study under a Fulbright scholarship in the United States. The American consulate in Jerusalem cited unspecified security concerns as reasons for denying visas to the three students.

American Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice originally insisted that Israel allow the students to leave Gaza, and four of them were granted visas by the U.S. The Americans balked at the Israeli warning that the other three were security risks and granted them visas, only to revoke them two days later following "more information" that was received. "We decided that we needed to take a closer and harder look at them in light of the additional information we received," State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos told reporters.

[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

115 Pyrocles  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 6:30:52am

Didn't Mohammed Atta claim in his "martyrdom letter", that he wanted revenge on America for the Bosnian genocide? I swear I read that somewhere... What an idiot.

re: #41 StudSupreme

Kosovo may indeed be very secular.
However - I understand that Hezbollah started infiltrating Bosnia in the mid 90's and started to radicalize some of the muslims there. I would bet that their influence is still felt.
Also: from what I hear, the Umma loves to spread the myth that the Western powers and in particular the USA strongly sided with the Serbians and supported them in their attempt to exterminate Muslims in Bosnia, when of course the exact opposite is true.

116 Know Your Enemy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:14:03am

I don't trust Stephen Schwartz--IMHO, he's just another apologist. He always points to Wahabis as the hijackers of islam and ignores the fundamental intolerance of the religion itself.
This quote says it all for me:

"We are Muslims, but not really."

117 nacazo  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:14:36am

The Albanians are mostly nominal muslims drinking wine and even eating pork. Wait until the wahabbis mentioned in the article start getting money from Saudi Arabia and making the muslims read the qur'an. I give them 10 years and they either will no longer be muslim or the Israeli's will have to pack because they will be the same as in the Middle East.

Read your unfriendly Qur'an.

118 ContraJihadi  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 8:00:27am

re: #69 Killgore Trout

I find it odd that he would give space to a article attacking Totten. I really think Totten is right on this one; he's been to the area and know what's going on. For Spencer to give space to some arm chair idiot who's never been to the region seems odd to me. Kosovo is going to be a strong a reliable ally to the US, I don't think there's much doubt about that. Spencer is wrong on this one.

I haven't actually read Spencer, but I have been following Michael Totten for a couple of years and have found him to be among the most level-headed, reality-based inhabitants of the blogosphere. It seems strange to me that Spencer would contend (if that is what is happening) with Totten.

119 sffilk  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 8:00:48am

Sounds like we should all make arrangements to go to this region of Europe and show our support for them for showing their support of us (whichever us we are)

120 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 8:14:07am

re: #111 A. van Hilten

Thanks for posting that. I'd never heard of her before, thanks for letting us know.

121 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 8:15:39am

re: #118 ContraJihadi

See #111, She's not an honest person.

122 samsgran1948  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 8:19:04am

re: #28 JSK1121

An article like this is just begging the Saudis to start exporting Wahhabism to a seemingly moderate place like this. In 20 years, those Jews will either be out of there or dead because of Wahhabism.

Last week or so, Totten had another article from Kosovo saying that the Saudis were trying just exactly that in the guise of rebuilding mosques and were getting no where because the Kosovars despise them. The Kosovars call the Wahhabis "little bin Ladens" and are not the least bit interested in the Wahhabist message. IIRC, one Kosovar said it was because Kosovars were thoroughly European and just couldn't be bothered with the Wahhabis or their flavor of Islam.

123 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:21:31am

The story behind the Sarajevo Haggadah is especially salient considering where and by whom the original was saved from destruction.

and let's not forget, from whom!

124 JSK1121  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:39:32am

re: #95 A. van Hilten

So it could well be the case that creationism will be taught as "science" in US public schools (*alongside* the wahabi version) in twenty years, while Kosovars continue to enjoy the advantages of a secularized Islam...

What is secularized Islam, performing beheadings in Armani Exchange shirts?

125 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:54:01am

re: #120 Killgore Trout

Thanks for posting that. I'd never heard of her before, thanks for letting us know.

She is a rabid bitch, on the board of advisers of the highest paid Serbian propagandist in the US, spreading despicable and vicious fake rants about Albanians both in Kosovo and Albania proper. Pamela at Atlas idolizes her of course, and so does Spencer.

I am beginning to think that Spencer swings on a pendulum, between Charles' thoughtfulness, and GoV/Atlas-Shruggs' insanity. I find his comment about Albanians extremely offensive:

The last time someone expanded Albania for them, Albanians were so grateful that they formed two Nazi divisions to show their appreciation, rounding up Jews for Bergen-Belsen, and killing Serbs. Before that, they converted to Islam to benefit from Ottoman patronage, get higher status and get the upper hand over the Slavs. Albanians will be whatever they have to be, and the love is always conditional.

So Albanians boot lickers by nature... He would prefer Arab-style suicidal "pride" that bites off the hand that feeds them. Gratitude is opportunism... Sure...

while conveniently neglecting to acknowledge Albanians' unparalleled history of saving their Jews. Not a single Jew was turned in in Albania proper. Nothing, zero, zilch! In Kosovo more than half the Jewish population survived. Why the discrepancy?

This is actually a great family story of mine. My great-great-great..-great uncle, Lef Nosi, a secular Jew and prominent Albanian patriot, was offered a leading position in the fascist puppet government of Albania after the Italian occupation, since he was a prominent and respected Albanian patriot, and would lend credibility to the puppet government. He accepted on one condition: that he be given authority over the lists of Albanian Jews and not be forced to divulge the lists with the Axis authorities.

He got what he wanted, which also saved his neck, because it was not a very well known fact (still isn't in Albania) that the Nosis (his family) were Jews themselves. When the Nazis took over from the more moderate fascist Italians, first thing they asked for were the lists of Jews, at which point Lef Nosi showed them the affidavit from King Emanual of Italy, giving him the right to withhold the lists, which he had actually destroyed by then.

So it was easier for the Albanian population to save their Jews. Left Nosi did not have access or authority over the lists of Kosovo Jews though, so they were out in the open when the Nazis looked for them. The Kosovo Albanians still managed to save over half of them.

Isn't that an amazing story?

126 just another four-letter word  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:22:03am

re: #59 faraway

OT, but who are we at war with in Iraq? Can't be the Iraqis, they're our ally.

Is the war over and they forgot to tell us?

/rotating title?

Well, if you haven't figured out "who" the Radical Muslims are that we are still fighting against, then there's no hope for you. We haven't been at war WITH Iraq for some time now, ever since So-damn-insane headed for the hills (okay, a spider hole) leaving his cronies to "fight".

Are you really that dense? C'mon...

JAFLW

127 Scion9  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 11:25:13am

re: #102 A. van Hilten

It isn't a 'No True Scotsman Fallacy' because there is no codified set of values and principles that define a Scotsman. The entire point of the anecdote is that the reader's view of what makes a 'True Scotsman', is something that is subjective.

What makes a Muslim a Muslim and a Kaffir a Kaffir isn't something that is subjective. I can call myself a Muslim, without ever following a single pillar, but according to the Qur'an I would be lying to myself and everyone else.

No matter what the world thinks of Kosovo, and its Muslim population and that we will continually refer to them as Muslims, it does not change what is in the Qur'an and what Islam teaches. "This book is not to be doubted." Any religious society, even one steeped in modernity, will produce fundamentalists.

There was also no statement that all Albanians were or are Nazis. That is completely fabricated. Pointing out the connection may be uneccessary theatrics, but the point stands that relations between Nations are fickle. It is certainly true that the Kosovars would not be positive towards America if it were not beneficial to them. There is no real ideological similarity other than that we both want the modernity enough to drive cars and watch TV. Although, those evil Wahabbists (who are also our allies of almost 100 years now) also like to drive cars and watch TV.

Unlike Canada, or Australia or various western European allies whom we share some points of common ideology with, it is unlikely that Kosovo (or Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait or Yemen etc) will ever be looked up and endowed with the kind of trust by the government or by the people that those others are.

This is not ethnic smearing. No one is saying "It is hard to trust them because they are Albanians" (although if there was some distinct and tangible cultural conflict that would still be valid). The issue is mistrust of Muslims in general. Even then, the statement isn't even "Don't trust any Muslims", as a great majority of Muslims will never donate to terrorist causes, provide succor to jihadists, or pick up arms themselves. The issue is though, that any and every Muslim society to date has fostered its fundamentalists and it isn't exactly like it takes very many people that are willing to blow themselves up to make a big difference.

Is anyone under any illusions that the rapidly Islamisizing Turkey is predominantly populated by ultraorthodox Muslims? Those Muslims are the minority, but it doesn't matter. Are most Iranians, or even a plurality of Iranians fundamentalists? Of course not, but it's irrelevant.

128 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 11:33:31am

re: #127 Scion9

Your Bible or Torah is full of insanity too, I would argue, just as much as the Quran, but if you don't want to get into that discussion, then at least enough to drive people to become fundamentalist butchers, if every word in it is to be taken literally. And it has: Christianity has had at least as cumulatively bloody a history than Islam since its founding.

Not every Christian takes everything in his/her holy book literally though. So Chrisitanity is not a "codified set of values and principles that define it". The only fundamental least-denominational belief is that Jesus died for our sins, he was resurrected, and he will be coming again to redeem mankind, or something along those lines. On everything else, Christian beliefs are profoundly diverse. You have Catholics accepting evolution, for one, and then you have fundies clinging to the 6-day Creation account. Same goes for all other aspects of the religion.

Likewise, Muslims can be just as diverse in their ideologies and values. Their common belief is that there is only one God, and Mohammad was his last prophet.

Violence is no more inherent in Islam than it is in Judaism or Christianity. Yes, there is plenty of justification for it in the Quran, just as there is in the Bible and Torah. That doesn't mean followers have to act on those elements.

129 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:25:17pm

re: #127 Scion9

It isn't a 'No True Scotsman Fallacy' because there is no codified set of values and principles that define a Scotsman. The entire point of the anecdote is that the reader's view of what makes a 'True Scotsman', is something that is subjective.

What makes a Muslim a Muslim and a Kaffir a Kaffir isn't something that is subjective. I can call myself a Muslim, without ever following a single pillar, but according to the Qur'an I would be lying to myself and everyone else.

No matter what the world thinks of Kosovo, and its Muslim population and that we will continually refer to them as Muslims, it does not change what is in the Qur'an and what Islam teaches. "This book is not to be doubted." Any religious society, even one steeped in modernity, will produce fundamentalists.

...

This is not ethnic smearing. No one is saying "It is hard to trust them because they are Albanians" (although if there was some distinct and tangible cultural conflict that would still be valid). The issue is mistrust of Muslims in general. Even then, the statement isn't even "Don't trust any Muslims", as a great majority of Muslims will never donate to terrorist causes, provide succor to jihadists, or pick up arms themselves. The issue is though, that any and every Muslim society to date has fostered its fundamentalists and it isn't exactly like it takes very many people that are willing to blow themselves up to make a big difference.

But Muslims don't follow a monolithic approach to Islam, hence the sectarian differences between Shia, Sunni and Sufi Islam. Not to mention that wahabism is based on a salafist interpretation of Islam and the Qur'an (it's a very defined school of thought that would have been confined
to Saudi Arabia were it not for the petrodollars).

Also, there's no Islamic Vatican, so to speak. No central authority deciding and dictating what is and isn't a "true Scotsman" (read un-islamic) as the warring between the different "clans" or factions in Macedonia can attest.

"This book is not to be doubted" implies a very literalist interpretation of the Qur'an that can be transcended, just like a literal reading of the Bible is no longer required to
be considererd a true Christian, no matter what the YECs may say.

OTOH, if, as you claim, "the issue is mistrust of Muslims
in general" and, by your own admission, Kosovars are not true Muslims (as implied by your words: "No matter what the world thinks of Kosovo, and its Muslim population and that we will continually refer to them as Muslims"), then why distrusts Kosovars? Are they or aren't they Muslims?

If they're not genuine Muslims and there's still a mistrust because of their national origin, then yes, I'd say there's
an implicit ethnic determinism at play here that reeks of prejudice and bigotry.

130 Charles  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:30:04pm

Quick announcement so it doesn't surprise anyone: 'Maximus,' who was banned a few days ago for excusing the (alleged) crimes of Radovan Karadzic, has apologized in email and asked to be reinstated, so I unblocked his account.

131 Scion9  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:32:14pm

re: #128 medaura18586

Your Bible or Torah is full of insanity too

It's not mine, considering I'm an atheist. That is irrelevant though, since this is To Quo Que nonsense. The beliefs of Christians and Jews or anyone else isn't relevant to what Muslims believe.

When Christian fundamentalists bomb abortion clinics they are also religiously motivated terrorists. They are also wrong. Christians turning to terrorism is also something I am opposed to.

However, being that it practically never happens especially in comparison to Islamic terrorism bringing it up only serves the purpose of engaging in some kind of excercise in moral/ideological equivalency.

but if you don't want to get into that discussion

I'm actually really willing to get into that discussion, especially considering I've studied Abrahamic Theology. I certainly reject the idea that you can take three disparate religions written at different times in history by different cultures and that they have exactly equal potential in producing both fundamental believers (that is literalists) and that both are as likely to turn to violence.

In case you were unaware, religion is something you choose to believe in. It is like any other ideology in that way. I could take out take out the words Christian and Muslim and put in the words Communist or Nazi and juxtapose them to any American political party or our Representative Republic in general and say that both are just as likely to set up Gulags or commit genocide, despite the prior actually having as part of its ideology, the violent removal of segments of society and the latter not.

Of course, like what you did with Christianity and Islam, that wouldn't make any sense and it wouldn't be true either.

Christianity has had at least as cumulatively bloody a history than Islam since its founding.

I suggest you read up on that one too. I mean, you could at the very least read up on the history of India before you spout this multicultural lie.

The only fundamental least-denominational belief is that Jesus died for our sins, he was resurrected, and he will be coming again to redeem mankind, or something along those lines.

One of the big things about Christianity, is that most Christians know that the books were compiled by Men. Those fundamentalists that believe that even though it was compiled by man, God protects the book and it tells the truth (literally or figuratively) regardless of any agency of man attempting to corrupt it, deliberately or by way of mistranslation, misinterpretation, etc.

The most read part of the Bible is Genesis. That makes a lot of sense. It's pretty much at the beginning of the book. A lot of people start reading it, quit, and have only ever read Genesis.

Have you ever read the Qur'an? The fundamental non-denominational belief specific to Islam is in the very beginning of the Qur'an. No need to skip that whole Testament to get to the core beliefs.

"This book is not to be doubted". The core beliefs of Islam did not originate with Mohammed as Christian beliefs did with Christ. They originated with Allah, and Mohammed was just the reciter. The introduction of the Qu'ran establishes it as literal fact, and as perfect. No word of the Qur'an is the word of any living man. Every single word in the Qur'an is literally the word of God recorded word perfect and incorruptable.

Their common belief is that there is only one God, and Mohammad was his last prophet.

Have you not heard of the Five Pillars? Sorry, but you seem woefully misinformed. What you refer to is the Shahadah, but that is an affirmation of faith(Iman, the oneness of God). You can't just say it, you sort of have to mean it. If you believe that Mohammed is the Messenger, then that implies you have to believe the message, right?

132 Robert Spencer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:41:57pm

As far as I'm concerned, the salient portions of the Gorin article I published at JW are the links to info showing that the KLA was trained by Al-Qaeda.

I also find that in Totten's piece, "We are Muslims, but not really," is a quote that precisely illustrates my point about how Wahhabis and other jihadists present themselves as pure and true Muslims, and moderate Muslims do not have any effective comeback -- in fact, they often, as in this case, grant the jihadists' point on that even while not following them. My contention has always been consistent on this: that even in a secularized nominal Muslim population (eg Kosovo), granting that point leaves the door open for the radicalization of those who decide at some point that they wish to recover their faith or live it more fully. There is no Moderate Islam for such people to get into -- no Reformed Islamic Mosque to go to, no history of non-literal understandings of the Qur'an and Sunnah. The only Islam they can recover, should they choose to recover Islam rather than being "not really" Muslim, is the supremacist variety.

Does this mean that the secularized Kosovars cannot be depended upon as American allies? Time will tell, but their vulnerability to jihadist recruitment proceeding on the basis of the jihadist claim to Islamic purity cannot be ruled out as unappealing to them forever, precisely because their own cultural Islam lacks a theological foundation within Islamic tradition.

I may blog about all that. I may not.

But a few things:

I do not "idolize" Julia Gorin.

It is not a sign of "GoV/Atlas-Shruggs' insanity," or of some secret or incipient neo-Nazism or white supremacism, for me to publish Gorin, or to be skeptical of how much we can depend upon the secularized Muslims of Kosovo. I see in that thread a good deal of name-calling against Julia Gorin, and one rather convoluted post about a picture of a man who poses as Hitler, but no substantive refutation of her information about the KLA connections to Al-Qaeda.

And the long quote about Albanians attributed to me, to which someone takes issue, was not written by me.

133 Charles  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:58:16pm

One problem for many people is Gorin's over-the-top description of Totten as an "imposter." I know Michael, and he's been on the ground in these places for a long time. He puts his life on the line, literally. He's no imposter, and that smeary characterization colors the rest of Gorin's piece.

134 Age Of Freedom  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:59:05pm

re: #132 Robert Spencer

As far as I'm concerned, the salient portions of the Gorin article I published at JW are the links to info showing that the KLA was trained by Al-Qaeda.

I also find that in Totten's piece, "We are Muslims, but not really," is a quote that precisely illustrates my point about how Wahhabis and other jihadists present themselves as pure and true Muslims, and moderate Muslims do not have any effective comeback -- in fact, they often, as in this case, grant the jihadists' point on that even while not following them. My contention has always been consistent on this: that even in a secularized nominal Muslim population (eg Kosovo), granting that point leaves the door open for the radicalization of those who decide at some point that they wish to recover their faith or live it more fully. There is no Moderate Islam for such people to get into -- no Reformed Islamic Mosque to go to, no history of non-literal understandings of the Qur'an and Sunnah. The only Islam they can recover, should they choose to recover Islam rather than being "not really" Muslim, is the supremacist variety.

Does this mean that the secularized Kosovars cannot be depended upon as American allies? Time will tell, but their vulnerability to jihadist recruitment proceeding on the basis of the jihadist claim to Islamic purity cannot be ruled out as unappealing to them forever, precisely because their own cultural Islam lacks a theological foundation within Islamic tradition.

I completely agree with you, Robert. That's exactly how I feel about the story.

135 Robert Spencer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:04:06pm

Charles,

I do not believe Michael Totten is an "imposter." I don't think his judgments are necessarily infallible, either. In this case, the quotation I mentioned above is, I believe, the key to understanding the phenomenon he is describing.

136 Scion9  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:06:08pm

re: #128 medaura18586

Violence is no more inherent in Islam than it is in Judaism or Christianity.

Oh? That is interesting. It must be the post-colonial nature of the Muslim world, and it is really the evils of Globalization and Imperial America and the fact that more than 4 out of 5 terror attacks around the Globe, in Asia, Europe, America and Africa are done by Muslim fundamentalists is purely coincidental.

It must be part of that "Class Struggle" I keep hearing about.

That doesn't mean followers have to act on those elements.

Of course they don't. I've worked and lived in and around the Beltway for years. I've worked for Pakistani Muslims in my youth, and I've had college friends from Lebanon that were Muslims, and I'm pretty sure none of these guys are 'true believers'.

However, they all had comments like the Kosovar from the article. "Are you guys Muslim?". The reply is never "Yes". It is always along the lines of "Kinda". The Kosovar knows what it means to be a Muslim, and he knows he isn't one. In the same way that regardless of what polls say, 80%+ of America isn't Christian. They are mostly Christians that have never read a word of the Bible, that haven't been to Church in more than a decade and couldn't tell Jebus from Jesus.

The Bible and Qur'an certainly have some wiggle room, but the latter not nearly as much as the former, and the former really only has some because of layers of mistranslation and misinterpretation of medieval European theologians.

That doesn't actually change what the books say though. They can't be twisted to mean whatever you or anyone else wants. If that were the case, we wouldn't see white European descended westerners picking up the Qur'an and reading into the mandate to wage war against unbelievers. That is happening though. We wouldn't be seeing that among Indians either. The book obviously says something.

re: #129 A. van Hilten

I'm not saying that Islam is monolithic, but keep in mind these sectarian differences are often very minor on theological grounds. It is Islam's own stance on the penalty for apostacy that creates these internecine struggles. The conflict is theologically imposed for even those that disagree on very minor interpretations.

Find me the sect of Islam that isn't a synthasis with Buhddism, Zoastrainism, etc, that doesn't believe in that the the Qur'an is the uncreated word of God. I mean, really. Find me the sect of Islam that is even remotely mainstream that doesn't adhere to Fatalism.

You are still trying to pick holes and read racism into an issue that isn't there. I have no bone to pick with Albanians, and neither do most Americans (I doubt most Americans know what an Albanian is).

When you tell most Americans that Albanians are Muslims though, the issue is going to be the religion, not the plot of land they happen to inhabit.

137 Charles  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:29:18pm

re: #130 Charles

Quick announcement so it doesn't surprise anyone: 'Maximus,' who was banned a few days ago for excusing the (alleged) crimes of Radovan Karadzic, has apologized in email and asked to be reinstated, so I unblocked his account.

And one postscript: unblocking is something that only happens once. If an account needs to be blocked again after a second chance, then it becomes final.

138 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:31:02pm

re: #132 Robert Spencer

I also find that in Totten's piece, "We are Muslims, but not really," is a quote that precisely illustrates my point about how Wahhabis and other jihadists present themselves as pure and true Muslims, and moderate Muslims do not have any effective comeback -- in fact, they often, as in this case, grant the jihadists' point on that even while not following them.

Or, perhaps it could illustrate Kosovar Albanians' growing understanding that the Western world reflexively assumes that pure and true Muslims are supposed to be Jihadists, and they want to preemptively dismiss such associations from being applied to them, while not necessarily wanting to get into a theological/political discussion with their interlocutor to challenge his perceived characterization of "true Muslims".

Perhaps the treatment they receive by Gorin, Bosom, and yourself helps establish these Kosovar Albanians' notion that the West assumes that Muslims are invariability synonymous with fundamentalist butchers, and it is the application of such prejudice to themselves they try to dispel.

There is no Moderate Islam for such people to get into -- no Reformed Islamic Mosque to go to, no history of non-literal understandings of the Qur'an and Sunnah. The only Islam they can recover, should they choose to recover Islam rather than being "not really" Muslim, is the supremacist variety.

Are you just ignorant of the tradition of Sufi Islam, the Bektashi tradition in particular, in Kosovo and Albania proper, or are you just conveniently neglecting to account for it? There are plenty of moderate mosques for practicing Muslims to go to, and they are not recently "reformed", because they have been traditionally moderate.

Totten covered a Bektashi mosque and teqqe in his Macedonia piece. These genuine moderates are being driven away and marginalized with the deliberate efforts of the Macedonian government, which has a vested interest in portraying its Albanian population as radicals, and in the West seeing Albanians through Gorin's lens.

And the long quote about Albanians attributed to me, to which someone takes issue, was not written by me.

My bad then.

As for the name calling against Gorin, Julia has brought much wrath upon herself through her disgusting behavior. Anyone taking her remotely seriously should take a thorough read at this KFOR American soldier's experience with Gorin,and assess her credibility accordingly:

[Link: libertyzone.blogspot.com...]

I have invited Michael to comment on this thread himself, as it seems like he is the only one missing in this get together, and he could refute Gorin's drivel much more effectively than I or Van Hilten could.

139 Robert Spencer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:44:38pm

medaura18586:

Perhaps the treatment they receive by Gorin, Bosom, and yourself helps establish these Kosovar Albanians' notion that the West assumes that Muslims are invariability synonymous with fundamentalist butchers, and it is the application of such prejudice to themselves they try to dispel.

Who is this "Bosom"? Sounds like an interesting individual!

Seriously, this is a familiar argument, but I would like to see you establish from anything I have ever actually written that "Muslims are invariably synonymous with fundamentalist butchers." I have never said anything remotely like that, and neither has "Bosom," for that matter. But it is a common hand in the deck of those who attack our work. Pardon me, but it is hard for me to take it seriously. What "Bosom" and I and many others have established is that the doctrines of jihad violence against and the subjugation of unbelievers do not represent a "twisting" or "hijacking" of Islam, but are mainstream Islamic ideas taught by all the orthodox sects and schools of jurisprudence (madhahib). This is a matter of fact, and is open to factual refutation. No one has ever actually refuted it. Nor can they, because it is true.

But does it follow from the existence of these doctrines that "Muslims are invariably synonymous with fundamentalist butchers"? Of course not. There is, as Totten's latest piece illustrates and as I have discussed many times, a spectrum of belief, knowledge and fervor among Muslims. Moderate and nominal and secular Muslims, however, such as the ones he encountered, remain vulnerable to the jihadist appeal, which proceeds by claiming for itself the purity of Islam. They retain this vulnerability as long as it remains possible that they could at some point decide to become serious about the observance of their faith.

The statement "we are Muslims, but not really" indicates that they believe that they aren't quite true Muslims now -- and that is what makes for the vulnerability. If their saying this were an attempt to deflect "prejudice" from me and people like me, it is calibrated in exactly the wrong direction. What they might say in that instance would be "We are the true Muslims, not the Wahhabis," or some such. That would make the claim you want to make -- that they are challenging the Wahhabis' self-characterization as the true Muslims. In reality, they are not challenging it, they are conceding it.

Are you just ignorant of the tradition of Sufi Islam, the Bektashi tradition in particular, in Kosovo and Albania proper, or are you just conveniently neglecting to account for it?

Are you just ignorant of the fact that Sufi Islam, including the Bektashi tradition, has never rejected the doctrines of jihad against infidels and Islamic supremacism, or are you just conveniently neglecting to account for it?

Here are details: Sufism Without Camouflage (Beyond Stephen Schwartz) by my friend "Bosom."

140 J.S.  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:49:03pm

re: #139 Robert Spencer

Might also note that here in Canada, there's a Pakistani who heads up an "Islamic" organization (in Calgary) and states that he is a Sufi. He is also an Islamist. Being an Islamist and a Sufi are not mutually exclusive...

141 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:49:05pm

re: #135 Robert Spencer

Charles,

I do not believe Michael Totten is an "imposter." I don't think his judgments are necessarily infallible, either. In this case, the quotation I mentioned above is, I believe, the key to understanding the phenomenon he is describing.

I don't think your judgments are necessarily infallible either. At least he has been on the terrain, spoken to the locals, and interviewed various subjects before reaching his conclusions. When has Gorin, the "expert on the Balkans", Andrew Bostom, or even you yourself ever been to the region?

Another angle from which to analyze the quote you find so problematic, is the fact that ethnic Albanians' historic conversion to Islam was not due to Ottomans subduing Albanians any more successfully than they subdued other Balkan nations which remain Orthodox Christians to this day. In fact, Albanians gave the Ottomans the hardest time in Europe, and provided the major drag to the Ottoman expansion. The high-point of Albanian national history and identity revolves around their heroic resistance under Skenderbeg.

Albania has been historically threatened by its Orothodox Christian neighbors, namely Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria (now Macedonia). All of these Eastern European nations' existence at the fringes of European history, intrigues were very often sewn by the Great Powers that be (Western Europe) involving throwing bones at Russia's vassal in the Balkans, Serbia, or Britain's vassal, Greece, etc. Religion often being used as a proxy for identity and ethnicity by the Western European bureaucrats who wouldn't be bothered learning the intricacies of Balkan nations' respective histories, religious homogeneity was often used as a rationale for drawing borders along religious lines.

Albanians are a small indigenous population of the Balkans with no powerful friends. Often times their territories were conspired to be split up entirely among their chauvinistic neighbors. The fact that many Albanians used to be Orthodox was used as a pretext to hand over those lands to the neighboring Orthodox nations (Serbia and Greece).

Therefore many Albanian Orthodox Christians converted to Islam to stand out from Greeks and Serbs. The Catholic population has remained stable throughout centuries, at about 10% (because they already stood out from the Orthodox Greeks and Serbs).

Christianity was often practiced alongside Islam, and Kosovo's underlying cultural identity is Christian to this day, their greatest hero being Skanderbeg, which is why even Muslim Albanians in Albania proper often consider themselves as "Muslims, but not really".

It has often nothing to do with what they think "true pure Muslims" are about, and very much to do with the history and motivation behind their ancestors' conversion to Islam.

Religious rationalizations were still used to stub Albania's territory, with half of its population being left outside its borders in 1912, and the rest of the territory going to Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia, and Greece.

142 Robert Spencer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:50:36pm

J.S.

Might also note that here in Canada, there's a Pakistani who heads up an "Islamic" organization (in Calgary) and states that he is a Sufi. He is also an Islamist. Being an Islamist and a Sufi are not mutually exclusive...

Quite so.

143 Robert Spencer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:58:40pm

medaura18586:

I don't think your judgments are necessarily infallible either.

Quite so.

At least he has been on the terrain, spoken to the locals, and interviewed various subjects before reaching his conclusions. When has Gorin, the "expert on the Balkans", Andrew Bostom, or even you yourself ever been to the region?

I don't have any idea whether or when Gorin or Bostom have been to the Balkans, and I don't care. With all due respect to Totten, travelers can be as deceived as easily as anyone else can. Would you have credited Walter Duranty's denial of genocide in the Ukraine because he had been there over those who had not but published reliable reports about it? It is very easy to be misled, even if one is right on-site, and it is easy to be misled whether one has traveled to a particular place or not. One may be on-site and have no idea of the significance, or lack thereof, of what one is seeing.

The information I have given and the judgments I have made do not depend on whether I have been to the Balkans, or whether Gorin has, or whether Bostom has. The material about Islamic doctrine is true regardless of how many stamps are on anyone's passport. One might take issue with the evidence Gorin adduced of KLA connections to Al-Qaeda, but that evidence doesn't depend on her having traveled there either.

Christianity was often practiced alongside Islam, and Kosovo's underlying cultural identity is Christian to this day, their greatest hero being Skanderbeg, which is why even Muslim Albanians in Albania proper often consider themselves as "Muslims, but not really".

It has often nothing to do with what they think "true pure Muslims" are about, and very much to do with the history and motivation behind their ancestors' conversion to Islam.

There is no denying that these are moderate, secular, nominal Muslims. I am not denying that, and never have. The question is what we are to make of that fact and how much we can depend upon it. I have already explained why I am skeptical of too much being made of it, and am loathe to repeat myself.

144 J.S.  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:11:37pm

There's an interesting chapter in the text "From Plato to Nato" in which the author (David Gress) discusses (in the final chapters) what "-isms" could be "problematic" for the West in the future...One such "problem" is what the author identified as resurgent Islam...(the book was published in 1998.) Gress argues that there is a distinction between "High Islam" and "Folk Islam." (center and periphery). Gress maintained that when you have religious "revivalist movements" in Islam, Islam will revert to "High Islam" (the austere, harsh, intolerant brand of Islam). So, if you're a betting person and want to try to figure out where Islam's headed (in the event of, say, a "revivalism" movement), then history suggests that it will be a fervent, oppressive, and strict version ("sinners" damned for the slightest of "infractions", etc.) (I think Gress's analysis is well worth reading and considering.)

145 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:13:53pm

re: #139 Robert Spencer

Andrew Bostom, forgot the t in his name. Typo... It happens. I am surprised that you couldn't guess whom I was referring to, but then later, you did.

Why the overblown reaction over a simple typo?

Are you just ignorant of the fact that Sufi Islam, including the Bektashi tradition, has never rejected the doctrines of jihad against infidels and Islamic supremacism, or are you just conveniently neglecting to account for it?

And no Pope before John Paul II had apologized for the Inquisition either, as far as I am aware. And Catholics are amongst the most moderate of Christians. But Catholics had stopped burning people for heresy long before any apology came.

I don't know whether Bektashis have officially condemned specific portions of the Quran which, like you say and I am not trying to deny, do rather explicitly call for the subjugation of non-believers.

But I do know that at least their community in Albania and Kosovo, has, through their official leaders, condemned every major act of terrorism I can think of, and that their sect has never had any conflict whatsoever (ideological or military) with Albanian Catholics or Albanian Orthodox Christians. And I know my home country's history very well. By the way, my father is Orthodox Christian and my mother is Jewish. I'd know if we'd lived like dhimmis for generations.

I don't know of a single church or synagogue to condemn passages in the Bible/Torah that call for open genocide or mysogeny either, and there are many such passages.

I do not expect them to explicitly condemn anything. What they can do is take those dark passages in the most figurative sense possible, that is, to not attribute them any value. That enough makes the overwhelming majority of Christians and Jews today "moderates".

Seriously, this is a familiar argument, but I would like to see you establish from anything I have ever actually written that "Muslims are invariably synonymous with fundamentalist butchers." I have never said anything remotely like that, and neither has "Bosom," for that matter.

Never said that you said it, nor that "Bosom" did, but in so many words your analysis does lend credence to that line of thinking. I guess more specifically, from things you have actually written and I have read, you are trying to establish the notion that if not fundamentalist butchers, Muslims must at least invariably and inherently harbor dhimmifying tendencies.

So you are, on that count, wrong again.

As for evidence debunking Gorin's drivel, I don't have much handy right now off the internet, but a very well-researched book with an extensive bibliography the sources in which you can independently verify, debunks all her idiotic claims, including the "KLA was trained by Al-Qaeda": The book is "The Case for Kosova" and it is not written by Albanian authors either.

146 ex cathedra  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:20:24pm
Albanians did shelter Jews during the Nazi occupation, more than any other people in Europe.
More than half survived the Nazi occupation of Kosovo because so many Albanians sheltered them from the Nazi authorities. According to Dan Michman, Chief Historian at Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, there were three times as many Jews in Albania at the end of the Holocaust than at the beginning. Albanians were well-known at the time as a friendly population who could be trusted. They refused to surrender Albanian Jews, and they refused to surrender Jewish refugees from elsewhere in Europe.

This is very impressive.

I don't believe this story. I heard otherwise.

Here, for example:

Two factors explain why Albanian Jews were “rescued” in Albania proper. First, the Italian occupation authorities did not support the Final Solution in Albania and did not implement it. Albanian Jews were allowed to disperse within the population and to lose their Jewish identity. Second, there were only 33 known Jewish families in Albania proper before the war. The Wannsee Conference listed only 200 Jews in Albania.

33 families? Not very impressive.

147 ex cathedra  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:21:53pm

Oops, the source for my comment:

[Link: serbianna.com...]

The heroes who saved Jews en masse during the war were Serbs.

148 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:23:05pm

re: #132 Robert Spencer

As far as I'm concerned, the salient portions of the Gorin article I published at JW are the links to info showing that the KLA was trained by Al-Qaeda.

...

I see in that thread a good deal of name-calling against Julia Gorin, and one rather convoluted post about a picture of a man who poses as Hitler, but no substantive refutation of her information about the KLA connections to Al-Qaeda.

And the long quote about Albanians attributed to me, to which someone takes issue, was not written by me.

That quote about the two Albanian SS divisions is actually from Julia Gorin but one would assume it has your implicit endorsement, since she published her screed at your site.

And the rather convoluted post would be mine. Basically, it goes to show that the journalistic ethics bias of Julia Gorin leave something to be desired.

"Fake but accurate" seems to be her motto. But then again at least Dan Rather tried to sway a US presidential election so Democrats could win the White House... That Julia Gorin somehow felt the need to "sex up" a Huffington Post story with a fake picture is pretty telling, IMO.

149 Robert Spencer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:30:27pm

Robert Spencer

Why the overblown reaction over a simple typo?

Because it amused me.

And no Pope before John Paul II had apologized for the Inquisition either, as far as I am aware. And Catholics are amongst the most moderate of Christians. But Catholics had stopped burning people for heresy long before any apology came.

Sufis haven't stopped waging violent jihad. Cf. Chechnya. And the fact that Hassan Al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, was strongly influenced by Sufism and prescribed many Sufi exercises for the early Brothers. That is not quite equivalent to a 500-year-old record free of burnings for heresy.

I don't know whether Bektashis have officially condemned specific portions of the Quran which, like you say and I am not trying to deny, do rather explicitly call for the subjugation of non-believers.

They don't have to condemn specific portions of the Qur'an. Given their belief that the Qur'an is the perfect word of God, I would consider it inconceivable that they would ever condemn any portion of the Qur'an.

But I do know that at least their community in Albania and Kosovo, has, through their official leaders, condemned every major act of terrorism I can think of, and that their sect has never had any conflict whatsoever (ideological or military) with Albanian Catholics or Albanian Orthodox Christians. And I know my home country's history very well. By the way, my father is Orthodox Christian and my mother is Jewish. I'd know if we'd lived like dhimmis for generations.

Condemning terrorism is not enough. The Islamic supremacist agenda does not proceed solely through terrorism. CAIR condemns terrorism. See Anti-CAIR for why that is not enough.

Anyway, your family has not lived as dhimmis at least since 1856. Do you know what happened then, and why?

I don't know of a single church or synagogue to condemn passages in the Bible/Torah that call for open genocide or mysogeny either, and there are many such passages.

Actually, none of the allegedly genocidal passages in the Torah actually direct believers on an open-ended basis to go behave this way on an indefinite basis. They are specific directives to specific people in specific times and places. So they are not equivalent to the Qur'anic directives to subjugate unbelievers, which are open-ended. What's more, as you point out below, Jewish and Christian exegetes have for centuries spiritualized these passages -- more on that below. But all that said now, if there were armed groups of Jews and Christians committing acts of violence and justifying them by reference to these passages, then yes, it would be incumbent upon Jewish and Christian groups to reject at least the noxious interpretations of those passages. But there aren't. There are, however, armed Islamic groups all over the world justifying acts of violence by referring to various passages of the Qur'an and Sunnah. Thus it becomes incumbent upon all decent Muslims to reject and refute and fight against those interpretations of the Islamic texts, if they can, or care to do so.

I do not expect them to explicitly condemn anything. What they can do is take those dark passages in the most figurative sense possible, that is, to not attribute them any value. That enough makes the overwhelming majority of Christians and Jews today "moderates".

Quite so. But the mainstream interpretation of those Qur'anic passages in question -- among all Islamic sects and schools -- is that they enjoin a state of war between believers and unbelievers for all time. Not necessarily a hot war, but always a state of war, and an imperative to subjugate the unbelievers under Sharia. Have any Sufi leaders explicitly rejected that imperative? I'm still looking.

I'm nearing the limit here. More to come.

150 Robert Spencer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:32:05pm

van Hilten

Are you saying she actually faked the picture? That the little Hitler character is not actually some guy in Kosovo, but, say, in LA or wherever she lives?

Your post is still short on substantive refutation, but your disdain for her is well established -- still, that is a fairly serious charge.

151 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:33:36pm
I don't have any idea whether or when Gorin or Bostom have been to the Balkans, and I don't care. With all due respect to Totten, travelers can be as deceived as easily as anyone else can. Would you have credited Walter Duranty's denial of genocide in the Ukraine because he had been there over those who had not but published reliable reports about it? It is very easy to be misled, even if one is right on-site, and it is easy to be misled whether one has traveled to a particular place or not. One may be on-site and have no idea of the significance, or lack thereof, of what one is seeing.

With all due respect to you, that is bull.

Ukraine, the Holocaust... the former is an established country and the latter is established history. The instances of genocide related to both of which are done with; they're in the past. If one travels to Ukraine or to Auschwitz today, one will find no substantial traces of what happened to either prove or deny allegations of genocide. Anyone wishing to talk about what happened with any authority, must work through sources, established by no less than, ultimately, people who were there when it happened.

Kosovo is a new country, the allegations Gorin spews out have to do with either the very recent past (during which she could have traveled to Kosovo first hand to verify them) or in the very actual present. Why not travel to the new country of Kosovo to see things first hand before smearing those who do (i.e. Totten) with maniacal rants? If anything, her sheer interest alone should prompt her to travel there.

Her accounts of Serbian minorities living surrounded by barbed wire is, for example, a pure fabrication which would be instantly proven as such if one visits Kosovo and ethnically mixed towns.

As far as her reputable sources, you obviously did not read the link I provided, so I am giving it again (I too loathe repeating myself): [Link: libertyzone.blogspot.com...]

That blog is by a KFOR soldier (former soldier today) who actually happens to lean a lot (at least compared to me) on the Serbian side, and who actually was opposed to Kosovo's independence last time I talked to her (less than 2 months ago). Yet she calls bullshit on Gorin's claims, and even debunks her "sources".

She also poses an interesting question: If Gorin's position has any merit (which this blogger herself think it does, since she is opposed to Kosovo's independence), then why resort to lies, fabrications, and bogus "sources"?

I ask another question: If Gorin's stance has any value whatsoever, couldn't you represent that stance by someone who not only resorts to lies, character assassination, and fake sources, but who also happens to be a flaming anti-Albanian bigot?

I mean, the is actually racially/ethnically offensive.

But there is no validity to her bullshit, which is why only anti-Albanian bigots like herself would resort to lies, character assassination and fake sources to establish the claims and conclusions she tries to establish.

152 Robert Spencer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:35:11pm

medaura18586:

Never said that you said it, nor that "Bosom" did, but in so many words your analysis does lend credence to that line of thinking.

Why is that necessarily so, what is your evidence for contending thus, and what is erroneous about my analysis of Islam and jihad in any case?

I guess more specifically, from things you have actually written and I have read, you are trying to establish the notion that if not fundamentalist butchers, Muslims must at least invariably and inherently harbor dhimmifying tendencies.

"Invariably and inherently harbor dhimmifying tendencies"? Please establish this claim with quotations from my work.

So you are, on that count, wrong again.

If I had ever said such a thing, which of course I have not.

As for evidence debunking Gorin's drivel, I don't have much handy right now off the internet, but a very well-researched book with an extensive bibliography the sources in which you can independently verify, debunks all her idiotic claims, including the "KLA was trained by Al-Qaeda": The book is "The Case for Kosova" and it is not written by Albanian authors either.

I'll look for it, but I'm sorry you can't produce even one link to any such debunking here.

153 Charles  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:35:34pm

re: #148 A. van Hilten

That quote about the two Albanian SS divisions is actually from Julia Gorin but one would assume it has your implicit endorsement, since she published her screed at your site.

And the rather convoluted post would be mine. Basically, it goes to show that the journalistic ethics bias of Julia Gorin leave something to be desired.

"Fake but accurate" seems to be her motto. But then again at least Dan Rather tried to sway a US presidential election so Democrats could win the White House... That Julia Gorin somehow felt the need to "sex up" a Huffington Post story with a fake picture is pretty telling, IMO.

Here's your comment:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Unless I'm missing something, you didn't prove that the photo is "fake" at all. Who knows where she got the picture -- maybe the Huffington Post editors had it on file. The story appears to be true, though. Just because it isn't posted at the blog she links, you can't assume it's a fake photo.

154 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:36:12pm

re: #146 ex cathedra

33 families? Not very impressive.


Don't let that mask slip, will you?

During the Holocaust, Albania was the only country in Europe that protected and sheltered its entire Jewish population, both native and foreign. Through the valiant efforts of Muslims and Christians, all [that's A-L-L] of Albania's Jews survived the Holocaust.

[Link: www.adl.org...]

Ouch!

This is what happens when you take Serbian propaganda at face value.

This site fact-checks your ass, remember?

155 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:38:25pm

re: #146 ex cathedra

33 families? Not very impressive.

Not very impressive? What is that supposed to mean? That Albanians should have pulled more Jews out of their asses to save so that they could impress you today?

Actually, there were many more than 33 families, but the records have been destroyed by my Jewish great great great uncle. See my #125.

156 Robert Spencer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:39:44pm

medaura18586:

Ukraine, the Holocaust... the former is an established country and the latter is established history. The instances of genocide related to both of which are done with; they're in the past. If one travels to Ukraine or to Auschwitz today, one will find no substantial traces of what happened to either prove or deny allegations of genocide. Anyone wishing to talk about what happened with any authority, must work through sources, established by no less than, ultimately, people who were there when it happened.

Clearly you have no idea who Walter Duranty was, or what my intention was in invoking him. Look him up.

As for Gorin, I am still waiting for evidence debunking her claim that the KLA was trained by Al-Qaeda, which as I said above, is the main point of interest in her JW piece as far as I am concerned. That claim did not originate with her.

Please note, in conclusion, that Michael Totten is not the only person who has traveled to Kosovo. My friend James Jatras is there now, and has been for some time, and his conclusions are quite different from Totten's, and much closer to Gorin's. So your claim that all this can be debunked by first-hand experience founders on that. Jatras may publish something about his trips there, and if he does I will read it with interest.

157 mph  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:43:59pm

Robert,

In your post hailing Julia Gorin's disgraceful attack on Michael Totten's Balkan reporting, you mention:

Yes, Albanians are pro-American, thanks to our distinctly un-American operation on their behalf.

[Link: jihadwatch.org...]


Be aware that the US has a history of supporting ethnic Albanians going back to WWI. Your statement and insinuation that the Kosovars and Albanians love the US only as a co-conspirator of injustice against its neighbors is factually wrong.

Albania's territorial integrity was confirmed at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919, after U.S. President Woodrow Wilson dismissed a plan by the European powers to divide Albania among its neighbors.

[Link: www.state.gov...]

Whatever you think of the chances that Saudi money can come to dominate Kosovo and Albania -- you ought to be mindful of what company you encourage when you dismiss the populations wholesale as hopeless and unworthy of our support. The solution from the US perspective is simple - continued support of liberal democracy and free trade. Isolation will undoubtedly breed your prophecy.

How we should approach Kosovo and Albania is nearly the same way we need to work with Columbia -- a country clearly desirous to live as liberal democracy in the 21st century -- but with criminal elements both within and in neighboring states who will lose big time if Columbia rises up in freedom. We can and will help Columbia rise up in freedom.

Winning this war on terror happens at the margins. In many developing societies, the margin between a population embracing freedom and succumbing to criminality is real and can quickly change (often depending on the winds of American foreign policy). I urge you to consider how your actions and words potentially affect those on the margins -- those people we need on our side.

As a side-observation, mostly unrelated: I sense that orthodox Christians and Jews fear a secular victory over jihadism -- because to do so would further invalidate their doctrines.

158 mph  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:49:24pm

re: #146 ex cathedra

33 families? Not very impressive.

I'm quite sure that is inaccurate.

Here is a photo I took in Elbasan:
[Link: picasaweb.google.com...]

This one was interesting as well (star of david tile placed in the wall of old basilica in Voskopoja):
[Link: picasaweb.google.com...]

159 Robert Spencer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:58:13pm

mph:

In your post hailing Julia Gorin's disgraceful attack on Michael Totten's Balkan reporting, you mention

I do think she was somewhat rhetorically excessive. I don't think there was anything disgraceful about it. It was well-documented, and I have asked here repeatedly for substantive refutation of the salient point in her piece -- and come up empty.

And the quote you attribute to me is, once again, not mine. The only comment I had on that piece at Jihad Watch was this: "In this Jihad Watch exclusive, Julia Gorin discusses yet another fruitless search for that ever-elusive unicorn, a genuine and broad-based moderate Islam." The rest is comprised of the words of Julia Gorin or of people she quotes.

There are plenty of moderate Muslims, but there is no moderate Islam, and that is a highly significant fact -- which was my main concern in publishing the piece.

160 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 2:59:14pm

re: #152 Robert Spencer

"Invariably and inherently harbor dhimmifying tendencies"? Please establish this claim with quotations from my work.

So you are, on that count, wrong again.

If I had ever said such a thing, which of course I have not.

It was not a quote off your work. It was me paraphrasing the gist of your discussion here on this thread.

I'll look for it, but I'm sorry you can't produce even one link to any such debunking here.

Sorry. I don't keep an archive of resources on this topic. Perhaps I should, and maybe I will start to. Some of the most reliable sources do not exist online though. They are hard copies of materials from libraries.

Actually, none of the allegedly genocidal passages in the Torah actually direct believers on an open-ended basis to go behave this way on an indefinite basis. They are specific directives to specific people in specific times and places. So they are not equivalent to the Qur'anic directives to subjugate unbelievers, which are open-ended. What's more, as you point out below, Jewish and Christian exegetes have for centuries spiritualized these passages.

I have read that argument before from you, and I find it highly unsatisfactory. The subtle semantic nuance of open-ended timeframe versus the specificity of a single time and place are lost in the mind of a fundamentalist so that's a moot point. The alleged "specificity" you attribute to those passages in the Bible certainly did not prevent Christians from engaging in the ugliest behaviors since time immemorial. It did not prevent the inquisition, hitch-burning, the expulsion or forced conversions of Jews, or the Holocaust (yes, Nazi Germans were predominately Lutheran Christians).

An educated person who is looking for spiritual enlightenment but not necessarily for a rigid guide to life in the Bible/Torah/Quran will have to transcend the literal meaning of very many passages. Anyone who can do that, can also get over the open-ended nature of any dictates in the Quran. If anyone can wrap one's head around the 6-day account of creation being metaphorical, one can also conceivably make the leap to consider jihad as metaphor, and any "war" with unbelievers being a "spiritual competition". The ignorant spiritually stunted and uneducated reader will of course take everything literally, and any distinction, if any, between "God commended this once upon a time" and "God wants you to do this now" would be lost anyway.

But all that said now, if there were armed groups of Jews and Christians committing acts of violence and justifying them by reference to these passages, then yes, it would be incumbent upon Jewish and Christian groups to reject at least the noxious interpretations of those passages. But there aren't. There are, however, armed Islamic groups all over the world justifying acts of violence by referring to various passages of the Qur'an and Sunnah. Thus it becomes incumbent upon all decent Muslims to reject and refute and fight against those interpretations of the Islamic texts, if they can, or care to do so.

Muslims consider the Quran to be the actual word of God, dictated verbatim to Mohamed. So I do not expect a condemnation of the Quranic verses per se, just like you never hear Jews or Christians condemning problematic verses of their respective Holy Books either.

Yes, all decent Muslims should condemn their literal interpretation which is, no doubt, noxious.

The fact of the matter here is that they do! I am not talking about Sufis in Chechnya. We are talking about Sufis and Bektashis in Kosovo and Albania. The Sufi strand of Islam is associated with mysticism, an element very convenient for those who want to take everything they wish figuratively out of the Quran. You also seem to confuse the map for the terrain:

161 Robert Spencer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:00:08pm

mph:

I urge you to consider how your actions and words potentially affect those on the margins -- those people we need on our side.

You mean my actual words, or the ones you and others have put into my mouth here and elsewhere?

My position on this question is clear. I've written a huge amount about it. Go to Jihad Watch and search for "Dinesh D'Souza" and you will find a great deal about it. But the bottom line is: my conscience is clear.

162 Robert Spencer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:03:17pm

medaura18586:

It was not a quote off your work. It was me paraphrasing the gist of your discussion here on this thread.

Inaccurately.

As for the rest, you seem to have overlooked the implications of the interpretative traditions, to which I alluded above. Neither the Bible nor the Qur'an exist in a vacuum. No Jewish or Christian exegete has ever interpreted the Torah passages that you label "genocidal" as a plan for action against unbelievers in his own day. Ever. Not one. While it is mainstream Islamic interpretation of the Qur'an to see the Qur'an verses enjoining violence and subjugation of unbelievers as valid for all time. That is what moderate Muslims must confront, and reject, if they're ever going to make any headway against it.

And that's it for me. Good day.

163 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:13:56pm

re: #150 Robert Spencer

van Hilten

Are you saying she actually faked the picture? That the little Hitler character is not actually some guy in Kosovo, but, say, in LA or wherever she lives?

Your post is still short on substantive refutation, but your disdain for her is well established -- still, that is a fairly serious charge.

I'm saying the picture is only visible in the Huffington Post story. The same story (except for the picture in which Mr. "Hitler" is giving the nazi salute) is posted at her website and is missing the latter.

And since the picture appears in the Huffington Post story with the rest of the material she quoted from Balkan Baby, the implication is clear: that the picture is indeed from the former KLA bistro guy and was taken along with the others.

Which is simply not true.

The problem is the picture wasn't there in the first place. It is missing from the *original* Balkan Baby thread. Also Ed Alexander, the blogger who visited "Mr. Hitler's bistro", had this to say about their encounter:

As all of this is transpiring every so often Adolf Hitler looks across at us. He spotted our cameras when we took some photos and send the waiter over to tell us not to. He knows our game and is making sure we don't get an opportunity to get a picture of his face . . . Deciding that it would be our only chance, we asked the waitress if she would ask Hitler if we could have a photo with him, and she came back with the reply that it would cost each of us €5. Forget it Adolf, there's no way we're giving you any extra money.

[Link: balkanbaby.blogspot.com...]

Doesn't seem likely that these tourists managed to snap a picture of this elusive ex-KLA fighter posing, right? More so since blogger Ed Alexander at Balkan Baby did not publish the nazi salute picture along with the other photos on the "Hitler" bistro thread.

So, yes. I'm absolutely, positively sure that Gorin included that picture to "sex up" her story at HuffPo.

If it portrays some nutjob in Kosovo or British Columbia is something I don't know.

164 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:23:45pm

re: #159 Robert Spencer

mph:


I do think she was somewhat rhetorically excessive. I don't think there was anything disgraceful about it. It was well-documented, and I have asked here repeatedly for substantive refutation of the salient point in her piece -- and come up empty.

And the quote you attribute to me is, once again, not mine. The only comment I had on that piece at Jihad Watch was this: "In this Jihad Watch exclusive, Julia Gorin discusses yet another fruitless search for that ever-elusive unicorn, a genuine and broad-based moderate Islam." The rest is comprised of the words of Julia Gorin or of people she quotes.

There are plenty of moderate Muslims, but there is no moderate Islam, and that is a highly significant fact -- which was my main concern in publishing the piece.

Nope. The quote isn't yours, but it's posted at your blog.

That's like posting an op-ed by a Hamas head honcho and not taking responsibility for what he spouts from the soap box you just gave him. Which is what the US liberal media (NYT, WaPo et al.) does on a regular basis lately.

And, no, I'm not comparing Gorin to a Hamas head honcho.

165 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:25:23pm

There can be radical Sufis, just as there can be fundamentalist Catholics, who are not required to believe in a the 6-day creation account in Genesis, but why nevertheless do.

That doesn't mean Mystical Sufism is a radical doctrine. In Albania, the Bektashi have fought against the Ottomans, and on the side of the Christians. You provide me with any evidence of Bektashi violence in Albania/Kosovo, and I give you free reign to go back centuries. Let's see if you can come up with any.

I do think she was somewhat rhetorically excessive. I don't think there was anything disgraceful about it. It was well-documented, and I have asked here repeatedly for substantive refutation of the salient point in her piece -- and come up empty.

You did not come up empty. Did you forget already the name of the book I gave you? The fact that I do not know where to look for it online right now does not mean no one provided a refutation. The most thorough accounts on these issues are usually found in books anyway. Sorry but not everything is one click away.

Niki (the blog I linked to which you never address) debunks some much more mundane "sources" and claims of Gorin's.

My friend James Jatras is there now, and has been for some time, and his conclusions are quite different from Totten's, and much closer to Gorin's. So your claim that all this can be debunked by first-hand experience founders on that. Jatras may publish something about his trips there, and if he does I will read it with interest.

Do you know that it is a well-documented fact that James Jatras is connected to the Serbian lobby, and gets paid something ridiculous (I believe 100K a month) for his propagandizing work?

Do you fail to realize his obvious conflict of interest, or just the mere fact that he is nowhere near as unbiased a source as Totten? Why rely on his account to invalidate Totten's? Why not just visit Kosovo yourself and not take anyone else's word?


Anyway, your family has not lived as dhimmis at least since 1856. Do you know what happened then, and why?

I know better than you since when my family has lived or not lived as dhimmis. Many things have happened in 1856. Which event do you specifically refer to?

Anyway, I think my limit has been exceeded for today.

Ultimately, I think you are willingly blind on Kosovo/Albania. Trying to find radical Islam even where it does not noticeably exist must vindicate your arguments, which you have taken great time and care to establish and polish up (such as the claim that Islam is inherently violent and evil because unlike similarly problematic passages in the Bible/Torah, the applicability of Quranic verses is open-ended). I thought Gorin was the biggest crank you knew and respected, but if you consider Jatras a reliable source and a friend, I guess our positions are irreconcilable.

In the meantime, excuse me if your opinions of people you have never met or, apparently, gotten no insight on other than from propagandizing cranks like Gorin and Jatras, means less than nothing to me, whereas that of Totten, who reports on what he sees, and who takes the initiative to visit these places first hand, is to be respected.

166 Edgar  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:28:59pm

Gorin may have had somewhat of a point about Totten's article, but she made it in the most obnoxious way possible.

Robert Spencer,

Please don't pick MJT as a new target. There are others (like, er...Dean Esmay, for example) that are deserving of your scorn.

167 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:31:17pm

Julia Gorin's "Hitler diner" story at her own website can no longer be accessed.

168 mph  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:32:55pm

re: #161 Robert Spencer

mph:

You mean my actual words, or the ones you and others have put into my mouth here and elsewhere?

My position on this question is clear. I've written a huge amount about it. Go to Jihad Watch and search for "Dinesh D'Souza" and you will find a great deal about it. But the bottom line is: my conscience is clear.

I understand those were words you were quoting -- but YOU did publish them on YOUR website -- in essence, endorsing them.

I am glad your conscience is clear. So is Karadzic's. And so is mine. I am not comparing us to the butcher in any way, except that a clear conscience is probably good for your health, yet it does not necessarily have anything to do with the reality beyond it.

The ability and gracefulness to change one's mind on a subject or previously held belief should not corrupt one's conscience.

169 jaunte  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:36:51pm

re: #165 medaura18586

Medaura, the book you mentioned, (I believe) "The Case for Kosova: Passage to Independence" by Ismaïl Kadaré, is available from Amazon.com.

170 Edgar  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:37:41pm

re: #168 mph

I understand those were words you were quoting -- but YOU did publish them on YOUR website -- in essence, endorsing them.

Huh? But that's the point of having a website. You get to post inflammatory material while having the ability to deny that it reflects your own personal feelings.

171 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:38:32pm

re:

172 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:40:01pm

re: #169 jaunte

Medaura, the book you mentioned, (I believe) "The Case for Kosova: Passage to Independence" by Ismaïl Kadaré, is available from Amazon.com.

I think that's another book though...

173 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:43:53pm

re: #169 jaunte

Well actually, sorry, you're right.

It is a very good book. It addresses every single one of these idiot points, and the points are largely rebutted by writers who are not Albanian.

Another very good book is "Kosovo: a short history" by British historian Noel Malcolm.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

174 jaunte  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:46:29pm

re: #173 medaura18586

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll do some reading.

175 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 3:51:47pm

re: #174 jaunte

You're welcome! Totten alone has written rather extensively on Kosovo (also covering Bosnia and Serbia). You can Google 'Michael Totten Kosovo' and many articles from his website of from Commentary magazine can be found (you can try finding them through his blog's search box but I don't think it works that well).

They deal with the state of affairs on the region today. But to fully savor them it helps to learn some basics about the history, which "Kosovo: A Short History" is great for.

176 Charles  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:05:25pm

The Hitler picture from the Huffington Post article can be found here, citing a Slovakian source with a link that's now dead:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

177 Charles  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:11:13pm

Here's the article in the Internet Archive:

[Link: www.iformat.hnonline.sk...]

178 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:11:51pm

re: #176 Charles

I had seen the picture already, but why so many dead links surrounding it?

179 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:14:51pm

re: #177 Charles

I see the article now, though I understand no Slovenian. Did Andrej Ban take those pictures himself or is he merely reproducing them?

180 Charles  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:19:00pm

re: #179 medaura18586

I see the article now, though I understand no Slovenian. Did Andrej Ban take those pictures himself or is he merely reproducing them?

You know as much as I do - but the picture and story do have another source besides the blogger Gorin quotes.

181 Hollowpoint  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:25:46pm

Cranks like Gorin (and at times and to a lesser extent even Robert Spencer, whom I respect much) too often get so invested in their anti-Islam screeds that they tend to ignore or minimize current realities that don't fit their agenda, noble though that agenda may be.

We're supposed to view current events in Kosovo and Albania exclusively through the lens of what occured during war in 1991? And WWII? And the Ottoman Empire? By that standard, Germany is still threatens another round of genocidal, nationalistic military conquest, and the US is an inherently racist nation based on pre-Civil War slavery. It's dishonest, and Mr. Spencer should be ashamed to provide a platform for it.

Here we have a newly formed state of majority Muslims who are very pro-American, pro-Israel, and overwhelmingly practice a laid-back version if Islam that poses no threat to non-Muslims... yet to some Kosovo is two steps away from turning into another pre-9/11 Afghanistan based on events of decades (or centuries) ago.

182 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:26:03pm

The entire story seems very fishy to me. Someone should be sent up to investigate about this place in Mitrovica. I am going to Albania in a month or so, and perhaps Kosovo. If I do, I'll look out for this place and take pictures.

The fact that Gorin pulled the story from her blog has sent my bullshitometer's reading through the roof. I also don't know if those pictures from the Slovenian site were not taken from "Balkanbaby" before he pulled them: [Link: balkanbaby.blogspot.com...]

Again, they say that the Hitler did not like being photographed up close. Yet he is posing for the picture in the Slovenian site. It also doesn't look as the same "Hitler" I saw before on Gorin's blog (before she pulled the story). That was a more muscular or anyhow, bulky looking man, different build, different face.

Again, not impossible, just highly unlikely, or in any case, fishy.. this whole story.

183 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:38:20pm

re: #153 Charles

Unless I'm missing something, you didn't prove that the photo is "fake" at all. Who knows where she got the picture -- maybe the Huffington Post editors had it on file. The story appears to be true, though. Just because it isn't posted at the blog she links, you can't assume it's a fake photo.

The picture seems to be genuine. However, Gorin did "sex up" her HuffPo story by adding it, since it was certainly not snapped by Ed Alexander during his visit to Mitrovica.

In fact, it is available at this Serbian magazine's website: [Link: www.vreme.com.mk...]

I don't know why she failed to mention this fact, maybe it's because the magazine is Serbian.

184 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 4:44:17pm

The link isn't working, so let's try again: Vreme Online

Also, the story at Balkan Baby is dated "30th May 2006", whereas the magazine article is dated "10.03.2007".

185 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 5:48:37pm

Darn- I'm sorry to have missed out on the discussion.

I see a lot of this conversation revolves around the quote, "We are Muslims, but not really." What I see when I read that is, "We are apostates". Islamic fundamentalists would view the Kosovars to be as worthy of death as any Jew or other infidel. In that regard- they have just as much to lose to the fundamentalists as the rest of us, and I think it is in this regard that it is in the interest of Kosovars and the West that we support and encourage moderation. They're certainly not likely to reject fundamentalists if we turn our back on them and/or demonize them.

186 Age Of Freedom  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 6:29:08pm

re: #157 mph

As a side-observation, mostly unrelated: I sense that orthodox Christians and Jews fear a secular victory over jihadism -- because to do so would further invalidate their doctrines.

That's seriously one of the most BS comments I've seen on LGF in quite a while, and I say so as a complete secular. I mean, how does one approach this nonsense? It's royally screwed from every angle.

187 mph  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 6:45:30pm

re: #186 Age Of Freedom

I mean, how does one approach this nonsense? It's royally screwed from every angle.

I wouldn't mind it if you possibly tried. And I apologize for offending -- it was a side thought brought on by Robert Spencer's comments. But I do stand by the statement.

I respect Robert Spencer's general idea that orthodox Islam fully applied is a deadly enemy of civilization and it must be defeated (I disagree that all nominally muslim countries are destined to radicalism though). But with the luxury of hindsight (history) in hand, I don't think it is so radical to think that orthodox Christianity and Judaism is incompatible with a liberal democratic/republican state either. If you can find passages in the Bible or Torah that you feel support a liberal democracy, by all means share -- but I can respond with many quotes that clearly do not.

Yet, in the immortal words of Ann Coulter:

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

I do not believe Ann Coulter and her brethren want to see a secular victory over Islam. I believe she means what she says and would prefer a religious crusade. I also believe it is a small minority of the religious public who are in line with such craziness.

188 Age Of Freedom  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 6:46:08pm

re: #185 Sharmuta

Darn- I'm sorry to have missed out on the discussion.

I see a lot of this conversation revolves around the quote, "We are Muslims, but not really." What I see when I read that is, "We are apostates". Islamic fundamentalists would view the Kosovars to be as worthy of death as any Jew or other infidel. In that regard- they have just as much to lose to the fundamentalists as the rest of us, and I think it is in this regard that it is in the interest of Kosovars and the West that we support and encourage moderation. They're certainly not likely to reject fundamentalists if we turn our back on them and/or demonize them.

It's always good to encourage them to ensure moderation, but as long as they say "we are muslim (but not really)" it is that very string attached to the dangerously supremacist ideology they apparently ignore.

It immediately strikes me as saying "We are members of the Nazi Party, but not really". I'm sure they are all fantastic people, but that aside they are, still, a nominally secular off-shoot of a fascist ideology. Worth encouraging, but I have long lost any micro shreds of hope with anything related to that framework called Islam.

189 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 6:48:55pm

re: #188 Age Of Freedom

That's sure not a very "secular" take on it... from a self-professed secular.

190 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 6:50:58pm

re: #188 Age Of Freedom

This surprises me from you. Should this be encouraged in the hopes we can keep them on the side of civility, decency and liberty? I remember well that you seem to think we should continue to engage with fascist sympathizers in the same hopes of being able to bring them back to our side. Why should we not extend this same reasoning to moderate muslims?

191 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:00:51pm

re: #147 ex cathedra

Oops, the source for my comment:

[Link: serbianna.com...]

The heroes who saved Jews en masse during the war were Serbs.

And this idiot's source for that claim is Serbianna, Serbian nationalists' propagandizing central.

For some insight into what was done to the Jews

en masse

in Serbia, consider the following documentary:

The Untold Holocaust of Jews in Serbia during WW2

192 Age Of Freedom  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:12:31pm

re: #187 mph

re: #186 Age Of Freedom

I mean, how does one approach this nonsense? It's royally screwed from every angle.

I wouldn't mind it if you possibly tried. And I apologize for offending -- it was a side thought brought on by Robert Spencer's comments. But I do stand by the statement.

You're tossing out this accusation at Orthodox Jews as if they are parallel, perhaps the more softer version of "jihadists" as oppose to the secular muslims / Jews (and I know you didn't spell it out, but it's awfully obvious)

I respect Robert Spencer's general idea that orthodox Islam fully applied is a deadly enemy of civilization and it must be defeated (I disagree that all nominally muslim countries are destined to radicalism though). But with the luxury of hindsight (history) in hand, I don't think it is so radical to think that orthodox Christianity and Judaism is incompatible with a liberal democratic/republican state either. If you can find passages in the Bible or Torah that you feel support a liberal democracy, by all means share -- but I can respond with many quotes that clearly do not.

Good. So you DO equate orthodox Judaism to Muslims / Jihadists. Please fork out instances of orthodox Jews as a collective that actively advocate or participate in any live structures to wipe out the gentile world and install an authentically torah rule, throughout the last 2,000 years. Feel free to focus on ww2 and the spanish inquisition for a better reference.

Yet, in the immortal words of Ann Coulter:

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

I do not believe Ann Coulter and her brethren want to see a secular victory over Islam. I believe she means what she says and would prefer a religious crusade. I also believe it is a small minority of the religious public who are in line with such craziness.I do not believe Ann Coulter and her brethren want to see a secular victory over Islam. I believe she means what she says and would prefer a religious crusade. I also believe it is a small minority of the religious public who are in line with such craziness.

So if it's a marginal minority that's part of an assimilated and long staunch populace (like Orthodox Jews), then why are you even bothering? You said it yourself, quote: "I sense that orthodox Christians and Jews fear a secular victory over jihadism". Try using logic, than senses.

193 MPH  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:16:45pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

This surprises me from you. Should this be encouraged in the hopes we can keep them on the side of civility, decency and liberty? I remember well that you seem to think we should continue to engage with fascist sympathizers in the same hopes of being able to bring them back to our side. Why should we not extend this same reasoning to moderate muslims?

Not to mention --- the moderate muslims of Kosovo generally shun the "Binladinsa" as backwater no-goods who they know are up to no good. To shun an obvious ally like this (by comparing them to soft nazis) takes some serious willful ignorance and/or malice.

194 violingirl  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:25:32pm

re: #160 medaura18586

Actually, more of the Nazis who perpetrated the Holocaust were Catholics... and religion had absolutely NOTHING to do with the Holocaust at all. It was all about Hitler's ridiculous ideas of a "master race," not religion. Christianity is not to blame specifically. Hitler hated the Jews because he saw them as being inferior racially, not because they followed a different religion. All of Hitler's motives can be understood when one realises this--it was all about the supremacy of the so-called "Aryan race," as well as Hitler's personal love of power.

And don't forget that the Nazis went recruiting for SS units in the Balkans--specifically in Croatia, Albania, and Bosnia. These Balkan recruits surprised even their German commanding officers with their brutality. Yes, you did read that right: German Nazis who had perpetrated horrendous atrocities were taken aback the sheer brutality with these SS divisions massacred Jews and Serbs.

195 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:27:04pm

re: #193 MPH

If it's okay to shun moderate muslims for their underlying ideology, why give quarter to fascist sympathizers and the underlying ideology they're excusing?

196 MPH  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:32:12pm

re: #192 Age Of Freedom

So you DO equate orthodox Judaism to Muslims / Jihadists

I certainly do not...I guess I got under your skin for some reason and now you are trying to create a straw man to punch holes in -- but I won't let you. I do think Orthodox Judaism looked at independently is pretty crazy (do you think if this Moses guy had owned a refrigerator he would have banned pork and shellfish?). But do I see Israel as a threat to world peace? Come on...don't even pretend I think that.

What I did say -- and can continue to say --- is that orthodox religious people (of any of the major world religions) see this as a war in which their religion should come out on top. If you wish to speak of moral equivalence, secularism is an equal enemy to Islam in the eyes of the Ann Coulters (e.g. the Discovery Institute).

197 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:37:02pm

re: #194 violingirl

Actually, more of the Nazis who perpetrated the Holocaust were Catholics... and religion had absolutely NOTHING to do with the Holocaust at all. It was all about Hitler's ridiculous ideas of a "master race," not religion. Christianity is not to blame specifically. Hitler hated the Jews because he saw them as being inferior racially, not because they followed a different religion. All of Hitler's motives can be understood when one realises this--it was all about the supremacy of the so-called "Aryan race," as well as Hitler's personal love of power.

And don't forget that the Nazis went recruiting for SS units in the Balkans--specifically in Croatia, Albania, and Bosnia. These Balkan recruits surprised even their German commanding officers with their brutality. Yes, you did read that right: German Nazis who had perpetrated horrendous atrocities were taken aback the sheer brutality with these SS divisions massacred Jews and Serbs.

Catholics were the biggest Holocaust perpetrators? That's news to me... care to back it up with some sources? I did not say Christianity is to blame for the Holocaust. Why do you think Hitler happened to think Jews, of all people, over-represented in scientific achievements, finance, and successes in all walks of life, were an inferior race? He tied it very much with the anti-Semitic Lutheran culture of Germany.

The Nazis were surprised by the sheer brutality of these divisions? Which ones? Care to back up your statement with quotes, again?

According to Wikipedia, regarding the Skenderbeg Division in Kosovo:

The division was placed under the command of SS-Standartenführer August Schmidhuber, later promoted to SS-Oberführer. It fought against communists who were on the increase and consolidating their actions, both in Albania and Yugoslavia as the Second World War was drawing to an end. The division was operational for a few months (February 1944 – November 1944). Given that most of the recruits deserted, it was declared a failure and disbanded. By October 1944, their number had dwindled to 3500, and it "never became a significant fighting force"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

If that was enough to surprise the Nazis, then they must have really been stunned upon noticing the enthusiasm with which Belgrade earned itself the "first Jewish-free city of Europe" title...

198 Age Of Freedom  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:37:23pm

re: #189 medaura18586

That's sure not a very "secular" take on it... from a self-professed secular.

Orthodox Jews are still Jews as much as I am to them, despite many (big) differences. There are jerks in every group, but as a whole Orthodox Jews are a minor yet contributive and a peaceful part of the society. Orthodox Jews are the background core in which Zionism emerged from. Orthodox Jews are, in many ways, the bloodline of Judaism.

Sorry, but my heritage isn't violent or prone-fascist.

199 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:40:56pm

re: #198 Age Of Freedom

You're talking apples and oranges.

That's part of my heritage too, you know? But I have no wish to romanticize it.

So why is these Kosovars' heritage violent and fascist-prone and more than yours?

200 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:41:23pm
201 violingirl  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 7:53:20pm

re: #197 medaura18586

Croatia, including Bosnia-Herzegovina, became a Fascist state allied with Germany and which killed and persecuted thousands of Serbs.
See [Link: lamar.colostate.edu...]

In 1943 the Nazis formed the 21st SS "Skanderbeg" division of Moslem Albanian volunteers to perform an “ethnic cleansing” (of Jews and Serbs) in Yugoslavia. Tens of thousands of Serbs were sent to a Croatian death camp and as noted by Raul Hilberg in The Destruction of the European Jews (1961) Skanderbeg played a major role in the Holocaust, rounding up Jews who were subsequently sent to Bergen-Belsen and various death camps.
See [Link: mideastoutpost.com...]


The Moslem Albanians, who surprised their mentors with their barbarity and zeal for atrocities, were rewarded when parts of Kosovo, Montenegro and Macedonia were annexed to “Greater Albania.”

Again, see [Link: mideastoutpost.com...]

This site: [Link: www.nobeliefs.com...] has pictures of the SA attending church services.

Himmler and Heydrich were Catholics. And they ordered some of the worst barbarities of World War II.

202 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 8:07:13pm

re: #201 violingirl

Uh, that is a crock of shit.

"became allied"... they were occupied! As was Serbia. Serbia was occupied also, so it was officially allied with Nazi states. Why do you selectively mention only the fact that other Balkan countries were occupied by Axis forces?

Also, those are not sources. It's just some idiotic seemingly "zionist" magazine. Where are their sources their claims? The Skenderbeg division played a major role in the Holocaust? Funny because its role was to fight the partizans and it only lasted a few months.


The Moslem Albanians, who surprised their mentors with their barbarity and zeal for atrocities, were rewarded when parts of Kosovo, Montenegro and Macedonia were annexed to “Greater Albania.”

So where are the records of "their mentors being surprised at their barbarity and zeal for atrocities"? Also, if you knew the first thing about the Balkans during WW2, you would know that there was no Greater Albania. In fact there was no Albania at all; Italy annexed all of Albania in 1939 (not just occupied, but annexed). Those territories were to be given to Italy, to throw Mussolini a bone, not to "Moslem Albanians".

Not every link you pull out is a "source", asshat!


Himmler and Heydrich were Catholics. And they ordered some of the worst barbarities of World War II.

I didn't ask for 2 names of Catholic Nazis, but for sources validating the aburd claim that Catholics were the biggest perpetrators of the Holocaust.

203 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 8:34:52pm

I guess "Age of Freedom" doesn't have a response for me as to why it's okay to shun moderate muslims but not fascist sympathizers.

204 age of freedom  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:09:46pm

re: #196 MPH

Any victory Israel ever achieved only strengthened the bond and unity between Jews.

To say orthodox Jews "worry" about a "secular" victory on jihad, is utterly antisemetic, if not a conspiracy.

205 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:18:56pm

re: #204 age of freedom

Great- you're back! I'm still looking for an explanation as to how you justify shunning one fascist ideology but feel we should try to sway others sympathetic to fascist ideologies into being on the side of liberty and decency.

206 age of freedom  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:21:06pm

re: #203 Sharmuta

I guess "Age of Freedom" doesn't have a response for me as to why it's okay to shun moderate muslims but not fascist sympathizers.

I'm currently in the theater, your highness. Give me a fkn break will ya?
I never said we should shun moderate Muslims. On the contrary. I just don't really trust them to death.

I also never said we should support & warmly embrace fascist sympathizers either.

Just let it go.

207 MPH  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:25:07pm

re: #204 age of freedom

Any victory Israel ever achieved only strengthened the bond and unity between Jews.

To say orthodox Jews "worry" about a "secular" victory on jihad, is utterly antisemetic, if not a conspiracy.

Almost on cue, the anti-semite card. That really makes sense. Good work.

208 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:13:20pm

re: #206 age of freedom

Hell NO, I'm not going to let it go. You're the one who made a big to-do over trying to get fascist sympathizers to come back to our side. I think you want me to let it go because by pointing this out, I've made you uncomfortable. I don't think it's me who's made you uncomfortable though- I think it's you that has done it to yourself.

209 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:20:36pm

re: #206 age of freedom

I also never said we should support & warmly embrace fascist sympathizers either.

Nor did I say you did- I stated that you felt we should continue to engage with them in the hopes of bringing them back to our side. I also remember well you have a comprehension issue.

210 Age Of Freedom  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 11:05:08pm

re: #208 Sharmuta

Hell NO, I'm not going to let it go. You're the one who made a big to-do over trying to get fascist sympathizers to come back to our side. I think you want me to let it go because by pointing this out, I've made you uncomfortable. I don't think it's me who's made you uncomfortable though- I think it's you that has done it to yourself.

I already answered you clearly. Here's a second spoon feed, hustler:

1) I feel exactly the same as Robert Spencer does about this story. Whether we, as western fronts, should be on their side or not, it won't hurt to continue, especially when western powers pump billions into Arab/Islamic states.

2) I have the same aversion as you have to fascist sympathizers. They are lost, no doubt. My general issue is how obsessively aggressive you still are towards me, even on a different freaking topic, just because I remotely suggested that some of these supporters, who have always been profound pro-Israeli, are not worth shutting out. I'm not being a hypocrite about it at the slightest. I've got the same aversion to any supremacism that's threatening my world's existence.

To me, IMO, it's more likable that Wahabis and Jihadists can comfortably set foot in the balkans than anywhere else, especially when they already do it everywhere else. Nazis are marginalized at best.

What else do you want from me other than trying to hunt me regardless on what I reply to whatever topic, and never try to engage in normal discussion?

Getting banned?

Go haunt your hubby, not me Sharmuta. I have no doubt in my mind you'll scornfully deny this, but after all, I'm on your team.

211 Age Of Freedom  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 11:10:58pm

re: #209 Sharmuta

Nor did I say you did- I stated that you felt we should continue to engage with them in the hopes of bringing them back to our side.

In comparison to how you violently shut them out? Technically that would measure as engaging.

I also remember well you have a comprehension issue.

You stalking me, Sharmuta?
Again, let go of your fixed bias against me. Put on a pillow and scream your monthly aggravation into it. My comprehension issues are the least of your problems. Or you wanna get gang banged in Israeli forums in hebrew?

212 Age Of Freedom  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 11:18:12pm

re: #207 MPH

Almost on cue, the anti-semite card. That really makes sense. Good work.

Thanks, MPH.
I gotta say your observation on the anti-semite card and orthodox Jews fearing a secular victory prove beyond any reasonable doubt that your senses are M. Night Shymalan ace.

213 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 12:12:07am

re: #210 Age Of Freedom

Suddenly you have an aversion to fascist sympathizers? Interesting, because before you were more understanding of their frustration, and made excuses for those who empower neo-fascists.

re: #211 Age Of Freedom

In comparison to how you violently shut them out? Technically that would measure as engaging.

Fascinating! Not joining in conversations with fascists and their enablers is now violent. The only person here being violent is you:

Or you wanna get gang banged in Israeli forums in hebrew?

Lovely.

You stalking me, Sharmuta?
Again, let go of your fixed bias against me.

It's called a long memory, not stalking, so get over yourself. I haven't said a word to you before tonight since April. Paranoid much?

Put on a pillow and scream your monthly aggravation into it.

You're a vile, sexist, pitiful little man to resort to this for an argument. I pity Mr. Spencer to have people like you advocating for his position.

214 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 12:35:52am

re: #183 A. van Hilten

The picture seems to be genuine. However, Gorin did "sex up" her HuffPo story by adding it, since it was certainly not snapped by Ed Alexander during his visit to Mitrovica.

In fact, it is available at this Serbian magazine's website: [Link: www.vreme.com.mk...]

I don't know why she failed to mention this fact, maybe it's because the magazine is Serbian.

Actually, it's worse than I thought. Much worse.

Ok. Since my knowledge of Serbo-Croatian is non-existent, I decided to run the text of the article through the Systran automated translation engine (using Russian as the source language)... And lo and behold!

They got the picture from the Huffington Post ("[khafington] post") story by Julia Gorin (and not the other way around):

REPORTING ON BRITISH [TURISTI]
[Khitler] into [Kosovska] Of [mitrovitsa]

Secularly [poznatiot] the Internet -[blog] „Of [khafington] post “[prenese] of the photograph of the odes of [restoranot] of „Of ј[ekhona] 2001 “, into [albanskiot] of the matters to [Kosovska] Of [mitrovitsa], the place of [chi]ј of [sopstvenik] for [se] of [oblekuva] [kako] Of [khitler] and [promovira] of [nostalgi]ј[a] on [fashizmot].
[Restoranot] of the beaters of [poseten] of the odes of [dva]ј[tsa] to British [turisti] into Kosovo, [koi] of [potoa] of [prikaznata] of ј[a] to [ob]ј[avile] to [svo]ј[ot] of [blog] [zaedno] from the photograph of the odes of [sopstvenikot], [chie] to [ime] not GO [ob]ј[avuvaat], but [velat] of the deca- beaters of [pripadnik] on You [oslobodite]

In fact, both the Vreme article and the HuffPo Hitler bistro story were published back in March, 2007. That's almost a year after Ed Alexander left Mitrovica without the "Hitler" picture.

Yet Gorin has managed to fool the editors of Vreme into believing the picture comes from the "BRITISH [TURISTI]."

What a piece of work you are, Julia. Now you are feeding Chetnik propaganda to the Serbian media.

215 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 1:27:55am

re: #213 Sharmuta

Suddenly you have an aversion to fascist sympathizers? Interesting, because before you were more understanding of their frustration, and made excuses for those who empower neo-fascists.

Did you even bother reading your immediate replies to me there? You treated me like I'm the frontman representative of Gates Of Vienna.

I didn't make any excuses for anyone. It's like you love splitting hair with me for some reason, obviously because I think there is a remote reason in trying (not desperately) to infuse some hope & sense back into those supporters (and you damn well know I'm NOT talking about the actual Neo-Nazis or their parties' members). IMPOV, 'moderate' muslims are more dangerous than non-muslim folks who are profusely pro-Israeli / American yet sadly blind enough to be lured by racist parties. By a hair. But by no means do I sympathize or understand their choice. I've been stating this forever now, but you just won't let it go. It's insane.

Fascinating! Not joining in conversations with fascists and their enablers is now violent. The only person here being violent is you:

Here's yet ANOTHER solid proof you boldly twist my words. Where did I once hint to converse with fascists? Where? Not a single time. Ever.

I said some of their supporters were our long time allies. Some of which have always been pro-Israeli / American. Sure, we can't maintain a bridge with them anymore, but you immediately regard them exactly like fascists. Don't let it cross your mind I put, say Pat Buchanan in that equation, for instance. He's on par with the scum leaders of those parties.

AOF: Or you wanna get gang banged in Israeli forums in hebrew?

Sharmuta: Lovely.

Of course it's lovely, because this is exactly what you do to me in this thread and others, Sharmuta. You're being disgustingly scornful at me while throwing an elbow nudge at your argument-'pals' by saying "guess "Age of Freedom" doesn't have a response for me as to why it's okay to shun moderate muslims but not fascist sympathizers."

You also put down my comprehension (English isn't my native language, as if you give a rats). Your hospitability and tolerance level are horrid at best, and so I forked up the invitation to stop by Israeli forums, if you ever wanted to feel busted by a bunch of native Hebrew forum members. That's another spoon feed, FYI.

AOF:You stalking me, Sharmuta? Again, let go of your fixed bias against me.

Sharmuta: It's called a long memory, not stalking, so get over yourself. I haven't said a word to you before tonight since April. Paranoid much?

It's quite revealing you actually remember exactly when was the last time you talked to me. Long memory M.A.

AOF: Put on a pillow and scream your monthly aggravation into it.

Sharmuta: You're a vile, sexist, pitiful little man to resort to this for an argument. I pity Mr. Spencer to have people like you advocating for his position.

With these sudden slanders and curses as a closure, I pity Mr. Charles Johnson to have people like you in our community.

If it makes you feel any worse, I incredibly admire Charles and Robert. LGF is, in fact, my home bookmark.

216 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 1:29:30am

The Slovak source for the picture is from May 06, 2007. So they must have gotten their story second-hand, as the pic is the same. Is it possible that this image did originate in fact with the HuffPo story, and was later picked up by the Serbian and Slovak media? (Vreme seems to be touted as
a "respectable" news magazine, but they clearly reference the HuffPo as their source.)

[Link: www.iformat.hnonline.sk...]

Julia Gorin's piece certainly pre-dates the other two. Now the question is where did she get the picture and why did she try to pass it off as the memento of a clueless British tourist?

217 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 1:45:46am

re: #215 Age Of Freedom

I didn't make any excuses for anyone. It's like you love splitting hair with me for some reason, obviously because I think there is a remote reason in trying (not desperately) to infuse some hope & sense back into those supporters

So- you haven't changed your position. You still want to reason with those who would empower fascists, but you shun moderate muslims.

And this was my point earlier- if you'd attempt to understand it. What is the difference between people empowering neo-fascist political parties in europe and those you say are moderates to a fascist ideology? We should reason with one, but not the other. Why?

218 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 1:50:30am

re: #215 Age Of Freedom

IMPOV, 'moderate' muslims are more dangerous than non-muslim folks who are profusely pro-Israeli / American yet sadly blind enough to be lured by racist parties.

Better the fascist you know... But of course!

Why judge people by their actions when you can prejudge them by their religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.?

Also, your use of scare quotes is indicative of your bias. According to you, there are no 'moderate' Muslims, even though you are being presented with the evidence. Even those who are secular (you know, Muslims but not really) are suspect. Are you familiar with the dual loyalty smear and ze Dreyfus Affair? It's a cut and dried case of bigotry: damned if you do and damned if you don't. Conform to our western standards and we'll whack you all the same. Only, in this case, it's not antisemitism.

219 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 2:08:12am

re: #218 A. van Hilten

He already admitted these scare quote worthy muslims are not to be trusted. I'm sure there's some point to be made in there about "historically speaking", as if there isn't the same point to be made about those who vote for nazis.

220 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 2:12:27am

re: #217 Sharmuta

So- you haven't changed your position. You still want to reason with those who would empower fascists, but you shun moderate muslims.

And this was my point earlier- if you'd attempt to understand it. What is the difference between people empowering neo-fascist political parties in europe and those you say are moderates to a fascist ideology? We should reason with one, but not the other. Why?

My position has been consistent, Sharmuta. I have wrote my position here several times. Here it is again
1) For this topic, I stand ground with RS. You don't have to agree with me or RS.
2) As for you thinking I'm being holding double standards (which, by the way, I can say about you from my pov - but I don't because I ain't far off your base), my answer has been again and again that I believe that shutting out our past allies in great trauma, is, IMO, not completely fair. Whether I agree with you whole heartedly that they are deeply wrong with their choices, YES. Completely. IMPOV, Islamists have a much more familiar ground in the Balkans and eastern Europe, than in the rest of the western world, where they already grab us by the balls very long anyway. That's why I personally wouldn't rush out to treat them as the next Israeli forefront allies.

To me, it's just difficult to hand out any kind of trust to someone with Islamic background, as moderate as they are; last time I heard of 'Moderate' muslims publicly lifting a (middle) finger against Islamism was, um - never. Totten's previous article has made this point more of fact than ever before.

Fair?

221 ex cathedra  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 2:21:54am

re: #191 medaura18586

in Serbia, consider the following documentary:

The Untold Holocaust of Jews in Serbia during WW2

It is obvious that there were local collaborators with the Holocaust in every country. The question is - on what scale did it occur and how do different countries compare. It is common knowledge in Jewish circles that Serbs were one of groups least besmirched with the atrocities of the Holocaust history. I knew about it way back in the 70ies when the Holocaust topic was a lot less popular than it is today and the Yugoslav ethnic conflict was not on anyone's radar. I have nothing to do with Serbia. I've never been to Serbia. I have no Serbian friends or relatives. So I have absolutely no personal bias. I have interest in sifting through gigabytes of Internet forgeries to disprove something I accepted as a fact
more than 30 years ago and which is still continually confirmed by Jewish writers.

I also get very suspicious when somebody spends an inordinate amount of time on the Internet defending a religious/ethnic cause, like you or "van Hilten." I begin asking myself: is this part of the well-orchestrated information jihad?

You might be for real, these are just suspicions, and I'm not making any claims about you. But you said a couple of things that have undermined your credibility in my eyes.

You recommended a book: "The book is "The Case for Kosova" and it is not written by Albanian authors either."

However, a glance at the Amazon reveals that the afterword was written by Ismaïl Kadaré, an Albanian.

You named your "great-great-great..-great uncle" Lef Nosi, born in 1877. That's an awfully long remove. At least, 6 generations. They must have had children very young in your family.

You state on your website that you are 40% Jewish. How is it mathematically possible to be 40%, that is to say, 2/5 parts anything?

222 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 2:28:50am

re: #218 A. van Hilten

Better the fascist you know... But of course!

Why judge people by their actions when you can prejudge them by their religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.?

Because I believe Islam isn't a compatible / peaceful culture-religion. I don't judge people by anything else otherwise.

Ok. Except certain populaces of drivers. :) (hey, car insurance agencies are legally discriminative, I pay more because I'm smarter).

Also, your use of scare quotes is indicative of your bias. According to you, there are no 'moderate' Muslims, even though you are being presented with the evidence. Even those who are secular (you know, Muslims but not really) are suspect. Are you familiar with the dual loyalty smear and ze Dreyfus Affair? It's a cut and dried case of bigotry: damned if you do and damned if you don't. Conform to our western standards and we'll whack you all the same. Only, in this case, it's not antisemitism.

You don't consider Islam as a threat, so we have nothing to argue about. As far as I'm concerned, moderate muslims are a flash in the pan. And IMPOV, you're an ignorant for calling me a bigot.

To me 'moderate' fascists are ought to be used with scare quotes, too. Like, say, Pat Buchanan or Ron Paul. The day Muslims as a whole openly act as a truly free society, stand up to Islamic tyranny in an attempt to completely wipe out its true form of dark edge, where Mein Kampf and The Scrolls of Elders Of Zion are a constant best sellers, then I'll move on.

223 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 2:29:10am

re: #220 Age Of Freedom

I believe that shutting out our past allies in great trauma, is, IMO, not completely fair.

I, for one, don't mourn the loss of fascist/nazi sympathizers from our ranks, but you feel free to feel that "trauma" wasn't "fair".

To me, it's just difficult to hand out any kind of trust to someone with Islamic background, as moderate as they are;

Fair?

And if you think I'm going to agree with this- you're sorely mistaken. Would you say this to Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Ibn Warraq? Do not again say to me we're on the same team- because we're not.

224 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 2:30:46am

Better now.

re: #218 A. van Hilten

Better the fascist you know... But of course!

Why judge people by their actions when you can prejudge them by their religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.?

Because I believe Islam isn't a compatible / peaceful culture-religion. I don't judge people by anything else otherwise.

Ok. Except certain populaces of drivers. :) (hey, car insurance agencies are legally discriminative, I pay more because I'm smarter).

Also, your use of scare quotes is indicative of your bias. According to you, there are no 'moderate' Muslims, even though you are being presented with the evidence. Even those who are secular (you know, Muslims but not really) are suspect. Are you familiar with the dual loyalty smear and ze Dreyfus Affair? It's a cut and dried case of bigotry: damned if you do and damned if you don't. Conform to our western standards and we'll whack you all the same. Only, in this case, it's not antisemitism.

You don't consider Islam as a threat, so we have nothing to argue about. As far as I'm concerned, moderate muslims are a flash in the pan. And IMPOV, you're an ignorant for calling me a bigot.

To me 'moderate' fascists are ought to be used with scare quotes, too. Like, say, Pat Buchanan or Ron Paul. The day Muslims as a whole openly act as a truly free society, stand up to Islamic tyranny in an attempt to completely wipe out its true form of dark edge, where Mein Kampf and The Scrolls of Elders Of Zion are a constant best sellers, then I'll move on.

225 Jimmah  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 2:38:11am
I also get very suspicious when somebody spends an inordinate amount of time on the Internet defending a religious/ethnic cause, like you or "van Hilten." I begin asking myself: is this part of the well-orchestrated information jihad?

From the 'information jihadist':

[Link: kejda.net...]

[Link: kejda.net...]

I have a suspicion, ex-cathedra, that you're an idiot. But it's just a suspicion, not making a claim as such.

226 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 2:45:29am

re: #221 ex cathedra

It is common knowledge in Jewish circles that Serbs were one of groups least besmirched with the atrocities of the Holocaust history.

It's common knowledge that you have none of it: History of the Jews in Serbia:

[edit] The Holocaust

The Kingdom of Yugoslavia had had a pro-German government since 1935 with Milan Stojadinović and had enacted anti-Jewish legislation as early as 1937. A group of nationalist generals overthrew the government of Dragiša Cvetković and the regent Paul on March 27, 1941 under the pretense of opposing the Tripartite Pact with Nazi Germany[5], and on April 6, 1941 German, Italian, Hungarian and Bulgarian troops invaded Yugoslavia.

The Nazi genocide against Serbian (and Yugoslav) Jews began in September 1941, the Jews of Banat and Belgrade being the first to be persecuted by the German army and police with the help of the Serbian police under the orders of the Serbian Government of National Salvation. The Nazis set up two concentration camps in Belgrade with Serbian guards --Banjica and Sajmište-- in order to process and eliminate the Jews captured. As a consequence Emanuel Schäfer, Chief of the German police and Gestapo in Serbia, could boast as soon as 1942 that:

"Belgrade - the only larger European city which has been cleansed of Jews, has become judenfrei."


Similarly Harald Turner of the SS, stated in 1942 that:

"Serbia is a nation in which the problem of Jews and Gypsies has been solved."[6]

By the time Serbia and Yugoslavia were liberated in 1944, most of the Serbian Jewry had been murdered. Of the 82,500 Jews of Yugoslavia alive in 1941, only 14,000 (17%) survived the Holocaust[1]. Only 4,000 Serbian Jews had survived the Holocaust[7].

Compare this with the well-established fact that "Through the valiant efforts of Muslims and Christians, all [that's A-L-L] of Albania's Jews survived the Holocaust."

227 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 2:54:53am

re: #223 Sharmuta


I, for one, don't mourn the loss of fascist/nazi sympathizers from our ranks, but you feel free to feel that "trauma" wasn't "fair".

Why didn't you quote THIS out of my comment, where I clearly state I can't stand the sympathizers' path:

"Whether I agree with you whole heartedly that they are deeply wrong with their choices, YES. Completely.

To me, it's just difficult to hand out any kind of trust to someone with Islamic background, as moderate as they are;

Fair?

And if you think I'm going to agree with this- you're sorely mistaken. Would you say this to Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Ibn Warraq? Do not again say to me we're on the same team- because we're not.

I realize now that even if I say 1+1=2 you will lash out on me.

Ayaan Hirsi? Are you kidding? She's renounced Islam. She's openly against Islam just like people despise Nazism. Ibn Warraq? Although she truly shines and honestly calls for reformation, she still says the EXACT same things I say about 'moderate' muslims, who do jack about their image. By the way, she lives in hide cause non-Buddhists want to behead her.

228 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:00:25am

re: #227 Age Of Freedom

Ibn Warraq? Although she truly shines and honestly calls for reformation, she still says the EXACT same things I say about 'moderate' muslims, who do jack about their image. By the way, she lives in hide cause non-Buddhists want to behead her.

You have now lost all credibility with me- not that you had much to begin with in my book. Perhaps you should google people before you start talking about them.

229 Jimmah  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:05:58am
Ibn Warraq? Although she truly shines and honestly calls for reformation, she still says

Oh boy...

230 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:06:16am

re: #227 Age Of Freedom

P.S.- cover your ass any way you want- I stopped the quote there because of punctuation. Wrong or not you think:

I believe that shutting out our past allies in great trauma, is, IMO, not completely fair.

I think it's completely fair to expose nazis and their enablers for what they are and shut them out. So- own your words. Or not. But don't bullshit us by trying to have it both ways.

231 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:06:17am

re: #228 Sharmuta

You have now lost all credibility with me- not that you had much to begin with in my book. Perhaps you should google people before you start talking about them.

Flamer, my knowledge of these brave ladies is ace.
Perhaps you should google people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali that you tossed at me and now quoted-out, before moving the goal posts like you lust doing, with the passion of flame.

232 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:06:57am

re: #229 Jimmah

Yeah- that's embarrassing.

233 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:08:11am

re: #231 Age Of Freedom

Wow- maybe you should do as I suggest and fact check your own ass before you embarrass yourself anymore. Seriously. But don't take my word for it.

234 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:09:21am

re: #224 Age Of Freedom

To me 'moderate' fascists are ought to be used with scare quotes, too. Like, say, Pat Buchanan or Ron Paul. The day Muslims as a whole openly act as a truly free society, stand up to Islamic tyranny in an attempt to completely wipe out its true form of dark edge, where Mein Kampf and The Scrolls of Elders Of Zion are a constant best sellers, then I'll move on.

Ah-ha! So there you have it: being Muslim-lite is the same as being Nazi-lite.

So a religion most people are simply born into (more so if you're the secular variety and it's more of a cultural thing than a system of beliefs, as in the case of secular Jews)
is now the equivalent of adhering to a racist ideology to which you subscribe out of your own free will.

So Pat Buchanan and the average Kosovar Muslim are in
the same league according to you, but somehow this isn't
a bigoted stance on your part?

Sure could have fooled me!

235 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:09:42am

re: #232 Sharmuta

Yeah- that's embarrassing.

Ganging up again, are we?
And why am I getting these eye rolls when I acknowledge she's a reformist? Do you guys love being asshats to others in your online community?

236 Jimmah  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:09:58am

re: #227 Age Of Freedom

Although she truly shines and honestly calls for reformation, she still says the EXACT same things I say about 'moderate' muslims,

HE doesn't fail to grasp the difference between faux moderates and real moderates as you do.

237 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:11:12am

re: #233 Sharmuta

Wow- maybe you should do as I suggest and fact check your own ass before you embarrass yourself anymore. Seriously. But don't take my word for it.

Still, preaching what you don't practice. Just flaming and flaming and flaming.

238 Jimmah  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:12:34am

re: #232 Sharmuta
Yup. Funny though ;)

239 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:14:39am

re: #235 Age Of Freedom

Ganging up again, are we?
And why am I getting these eye rolls when I acknowledge she's a reformist? Do you guys love being asshats to others in your online community?

This coming from someone who invited me to get gang banged.

240 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:17:00am

re: #236 Jimmah

HE doesn't fail to grasp the difference between faux moderates and real moderates as you do.

I do tell the difference. They are still a micro-nominal grain in the galactus of Islamic borg. And I stated that I think we ought to support them. I just don't expect to see any of them turning the tide of the Islamic world to become a forefront crusaders for Israel, for example, anytime soon.

241 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:18:09am

re: #240 Age Of Freedom

I still wonder if you know of whom I'm speaking though.

242 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:20:01am

re: #239 Sharmuta

This coming from someone who invited me to get gang banged.

In an online community in Israeli forums in my native language, after you mocked my reading comprehension, where you'll be treated like you treat me; your nickname.

Your deception is astounding.

243 Jimmah  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:23:22am

re: #235 Age Of Freedom

Ganging up again, are we?
And why am I getting these eye rolls when I acknowledge she's a reformist? Do you guys love being asshats to others in your online community?

The reason you are getting the eyerolls is that you keep referring to Ibn Warraq as a 'she' while trying to lecture us on his thoughts. It's best to know what you are talking about before opening your mouth on a subject.

244 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:24:32am

re: #242 Age Of Freedom

In an online community in Israeli forums in my native language, after you mocked my reading comprehension, where you'll be treated like you treat me; your nickname.

Yet you have the audacity to whine about your treatment here after extending me that lovely worded invitation. Your hypocrisy is staggering.

245 Jimmah  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:25:31am

re: #240 Age Of Freedom


I do tell the difference. They are still a micro-nominal grain in the galactus of Islamic borg. And I stated that I think we ought to support them.

It strikes me that continually dismissing them and reminding them of their irrelevance is not a good way to support them.

246 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:27:44am

Sorry, my bad about ibn warraq. I truly confused him with wafa sultan, and I'll take the fall all the way here.

Still, Sharmuta, it doesn't change the fact you wrongly used Ayan Hirsi Ali against me when she in fact dismisses Islam the way I do.

247 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:31:44am

re: #246 Age Of Freedom

I did not use her incorrectly- she has, after all, an islamic background, whether she's rejected it or not. By mistrusting any person with an islamic background, you are rejecting out of hand many apostates and reformers.

248 Jimmah  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:32:58am

re: #242 Age Of Freedom

In an online community in Israeli forums in my native language, after you mocked my reading comprehension, where you'll be treated like you treat me; your nickname.

'Mock my reading comprehension and I'll call you a whore'? Pathetic.

249 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:33:14am

re: #245 Jimmah

It strikes me that continually dismissing them and reminding them of their irrelevance is not a good way to support them.

Israel has been in endless peace talks with the Palestinians, who have been increasingly become more fascistic with their views since the early 1900's. Yet we support them better than they treat themselves. We aid the 'moderate' Fatah for some wishful hopes that it'll reach out for peace with us. So while supporting and defending the Kosovars may be better than letting them get swayed into the "full form" of Islam, I reserve my right to be generally doubtful.

250 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:36:29am

re: #247 Sharmuta

I did not use her incorrectly- she has, after all, an islamic background, whether she's rejected it or not. By mistrusting any person with an islamic background, you are rejecting out of hand many apostates and reformers.

I consider Ayan Hirsi Ali a true hero. One of a kind. Aggressively renouncing Islam the way she does requires a huge pack of cojones. The size of Salman Rushdie's. So, you just handed over my argument to me.

251 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:38:04am

Stop Da Presses!

I have a new Julia Gorin EXCLUSIVE that will make your Serbian blood curdle. Now this is what real investigative journalism looks like, folks:

Laughter at the Serb-slaughter!

Coverup on Serbian-Organ Harvesting: 'Pro-American' Kosovo Prime Minister Thaci Oversaw the Scheme

The lead paragraph would make Ted Bundy crap his pants and go running back to his mum:

Some follow-ups on the story of Serb-slaughter for organs sold throughout Europe:

What a joke! Paranoid doesn't even begin to describe it.

The gift that keeps on giving, indeed. And here I was troubled by the inclusion of a picture out of nowhere in
one of her stories.

And Julia, if you're reading this: Don't quit your daytime job. Hmm, what would that be? Wait! You're a comedian. Now that goes a long way in explaining your journalistic prowess, dear.

Robert Spencer features this raving loon's ramblings at Jihad Watch... Go figure.

252 Age Of Freedom  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:43:58am

re: #248 Jimmah

'Mock my reading comprehension and I'll call you a whore'? Pathetic.

BS. Stop twisting my words you cons.

She's been hot on my ass all night long, ganging up, flaming and mocking me. And in return I told her to dare to speak the same if she was also ganged up in Israeli forums where she'd have far worse reading comprehensions, so my use of the word BANG as in HIT rendered out as a "whore".

Alright, that's it for me. This has to be done with...

253 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:46:52am

re: #234 A. van Hilten

Why, yes! Albanian and Kosovar muslims are just like pat buchanan- well except for that part where buchanan wouldn't lift a finger to help a Jew.

254 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:49:34am

re: #252 Age Of Freedom

Whaaaa! LGF- it's a tough room™.

255 Jimmah  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:49:57am

re: #249 Age Of Freedom

To me, it's just difficult to hand out any kind of trust to someone with Islamic background, as moderate as they are; last time I heard of 'Moderate' muslims publicly lifting a (middle) finger against Islamism was, um - never. Totten's previous article has made this point more of fact than ever before.

Fair?

And I stated that I think we ought to support them.

I consider Ayan Hirsi Ali a true hero. One of a kind. Aggressively renouncing Islam the way she does requires a huge pack of cojones. The size of Salman Rushdie's. So, you just handed over my argument to me.

You are all over the place, Age of freedom - a mass of contradictory statements, excuses and half-assed back-pedalling.

256 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:59:49am

re: #255 Jimmah

Damn- comparing his words to his own words. You are mean!

And-- are you stalking him?! ;)

257 yochanan  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 4:11:33am

there are a number of great and honorable apostates, reformers and even a few educated moderate Muslims but they sort of remind me of the few righteous gentiles during the Holocaust were the vast majority of euro either did nothing or actively aided the Nazi's.

Sufi Islam seems to be moderate by our standards but as Totten showed in a earlier thread they are under major attack from whabist Islam the example he used was in Macedonia. the case of kosava and Albania being pro American is because we helped free them and also because they are mostly Sufi Islam but like the Sufi in Macedonia i wonder when they will be under attack from the whabist and other jihads.

but as much as i find the Sufi in the Balkans to be interesting they are small potatoes in the whole picture and if we had a couple of hundred years it might be of major interest but it looks like in Iran we have a year or two at tops. the same with the anti mullah movement with in Iran i doubt they will have the time to do anything either and if they try the mullah's secret police is more than willing to murder them as they have been doing all along.

258 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 4:37:58am

I'd also like to state for the record that it was "Age of Freedom" who first responded to me, not the other way around, yet he feel s free to call me the stalker. What a sore loser.

259 Solomon2  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 5:24:01am

The most important "must-read" piece from Michael Totten in the past month is The Bin Ladin of the Balkans, Part II, which details the Arab-Islamist invasion and takeover of what was a peaceful Muslim community:

“Serious trouble started three years ago when they broke gravestones,” he said. “They didn’t respect our saints. They also broke pictures of Imam Ali on the walls, and of the world head of the Bektashis. They cut the pictures with knives. They think we are too close to Christianity, in part because of the pictures and candles.” The Wahhabis hate candles. “Then the Sunnis came in and occupied the tekke. They said This is Muslim territory.”

260 agirlscout  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 7:17:33am

Gravitas!

Look up. Birds of knowledge are sitting on top of the branches, willing to drop advice based on their lofty perspective.

Here's the poop: What we are reading in Totten's dispatch is a description of Lover's Enthralled in their New Affair; where all parties put their best foot forward. Disillusionment will follow, as night follows day. Having lived in Damascus and traveled extensively in Jordan and so-called "secular" Turkey, where the bud and blush of new love has developed into its prescribed, deeply encoded fruit, ask any non-muslim living there, "Is it delicious?" Beware: Eat "Turkish Delight", you will become Dhimmified! But, hey, I'm just one little sparrow, go seek out the wisdom of eagles...like Robert Spencer.

261 agirlscout  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 7:33:13am

Oopsy in the poopsy keerected:

. . . so-called "secular" Turkey, I have seen the bud and blush of new love developed into its prescribed, deeply encoded fruit. Ask any . . .

262 violingirl  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 8:32:15am

re: #202 medaura18586

So you consider Wikipedia to be a reliable source? Come on! You've got nerve, saying that my sources are bad or unreliable when you've quoted from possibly the most unreliable source ever. You ought to take your own advice that not every link is a source.

Serbia was the only country in the Balkans to actively RESIST the Nazis. Of course, Hitler didn't take to kindly to this and so he bombed them into submission.

I find it interesting you call one of my sources "zionist"--that's the most common insult anti-Semites use to discredit those who oppose them.

And if anyone's an "asshat" here, it's certainly not me. It's people who idiotically believe these stupid anti-Serbia claims perpetuated by our ridiculous media.

263 J.S.  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 9:05:09am

I recall (has it been a decade now?) during some Balkan war, a CBC journalist (a fine journalist she was, I thought she was excellent) filed a report....it was about a woman who said the Serbs had murdered her 6 year-old sister...(iirc, the journalist had spent a considerable amount of time in the area, was at the home of the woman making the claim, etc., etc.) Anyway, later the story turned out to be fraudulent...entirely made up. The woman's sister was still very much alive -- the girl had not been murdered by the Serbs. And the woman was, in fact, a member of the KLA and had deliberately lied to the reporter...The journalist (needless to say) was devastated...but, she had the courage to do the right thing -- she acknowledged her error, recognized that she had been taken-in, duped by the woman's story, etc., and filed a story about the whole affair... (some at the CBC were less than honourable, and said that the reporter should have just shut up about the whole thing, and just allowed the original, false claims to stand...) This gave rise to a great deal of soul searching with respect to reporters covering war zones (how they can be used to further a particular "cause", lied to unscrupulously, etc.), and how to prevent (or at least try to minimize) false stories...I don't know if matters have "improved" all that much when looking at the history of this area (it seems that everyone has an axe to grind and is too emotionally wrapped up in presenting "their side of the story" and /or with making one side into "the angels" and the other side into the "demons." It's been my observation over the years, that, generally speaking, things don't break down into those neat little categories, and usually there's more than enough "bad stuff" occurring on both sides to pretty much eliminate any simple dichotomy...and this seems especially true of the Balkans..) Maybe one day in the far distant future enough time will have elapsed (get enough distance -- emotionally, psychologically, etc.) so that a reasonable accounting (an accurate history) can be recorded...(right now, though, I think things are still too raw...)

264 violingirl  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 9:20:05am

On the involvement of Catholics in the Holocaust, see this book:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

It's by Gitta Sereny, a very respected author of many excellent books.

265 violingirl  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 9:22:49am

re: #263 J.S.

J.S., it's interesting you bring that up. That was the problem during the Balkan wars. There was so much fraudulent reporting. The media was biased against the Serbs and made them seem much worse than they were. Of course they killed people, but the Bosnians and Croats killed WAY more Serbs (including civilians) than the Serbs themselves killed. The whole issue was obfuscated by the media and even today people still buy into these ridiculous lies.

266 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 9:26:34am

re: #263 J.S.

Unless you make names (a fine, excellent journalist, she was, whose name you do not recall?) or cite sources, you're just a drop in the Serbian propaganda bucket.

Isn't that obvious that you can fool no one that way? All your fairy tales with no specific verifiable information?

267 J.S.  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 9:27:54am

re: #266 medaura18586

Her (the CBC reporter's name) is Nancy Durham.

268 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 9:31:28am

re: #262 violingirl

So you consider Wikipedia to be a reliable source? Come on! You've got nerve, saying that my sources are bad or unreliable when you've quoted from possibly the most unreliable source ever. You ought to take your own advice that not every link is a source.

Serbia was the only country in the Balkans to actively RESIST the Nazis. Of course, Hitler didn't take to kindly to this and so he bombed them into submission.

I find it interesting you call one of my sources "zionist"--that's the most common insult anti-Semites use to discredit those who oppose them.

And if anyone's an "asshat" here, it's certainly not me. It's people who idiotically believe these stupid anti-Serbia claims perpetuated by our ridiculous media.

Hey asshat,

Everything I quoted from that Wikipedia article has its core sources linked to it, sentence by sentence, neatly summarized at the bottom of the article.

Oh yeah, the Serbs were the only ones to resist the Nazis. Don't you understand that your propaganda will be more believable the more subtle it is? When you go so over the top you just sound like a clown!

Don't care if your bullshit link was from a zionist or antisemitic or communist magazine. If you yourself think it is virulently antisemitic, then why quote it? What's important is that there were no sources for the bullshit claims.

269 violingirl  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 9:45:14am

re: #268 medaura18586

You missed my entire point, of course.

First off, some advice: not only does it look better, but it makes you seem way more credible and intelligent if you don't resort to idiotic name calling. Nine times out of ten, people call others offensive names to demean their intelligence because they know that the person they're arguing with is right and they really don't have any response.

Second, who are you to talk about propaganda? You spout disgusting anti-Serb propaganda. Maybe you ought to step back and rethink your position.

I don't think the article was anti-Semitic. I was saying you were anti-Semitic because of your use of the word Zionist. As I said before, calling sources Zionist is what every anti-Semite does to discredit them. People who truly support Israel don't go off on these tangents about Zionism. And yes, I know you claim to be Jewish. That makes not a shred of difference because there are many anti-Semitic Jews (as contradictory as that sounds).

Back to the whole name calling thing, it really only demeans you--I'm not insulted at all because I simply don't take offense easily. But your use of language makes you seem even less intelligent than what your views reveal. Maybe it gives you pleasure or makes you feel powerful to do it over the internet, but in real life, you look like an immature idiot who can't stand to listen to any opposing viewpoint.

270 herekittykitty  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 9:48:28am

re: #268 medaura18586

uhh, I think you're the clown here.

271 herekittykitty  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 9:51:58am

Charles,

Cleanup on #268...

272 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 9:55:41am

re: #221 ex cathedra

It is obvious that there were local collaborators with the Holocaust in every country. The question is - on what scale did it occur and how do different countries compare. It is common knowledge in Jewish circles that Serbs were one of groups least besmirched with the atrocities of the Holocaust history. I knew about it way back in the 70ies when the Holocaust topic was a lot less popular than it is today and the Yugoslav ethnic conflict was not on anyone's radar. I have nothing to do with Serbia. I've never been to Serbia. I have no Serbian friends or relatives. So I have absolutely no personal bias. I have interest in sifting through gigabytes of Internet forgeries to disprove something I accepted as a fact
more than 30 years ago and which is still continually confirmed by Jewish writers.

I also get very suspicious when somebody spends an inordinate amount of time on the Internet defending a religious/ethnic cause, like you or "van Hilten." I begin asking myself: is this part of the well-orchestrated information jihad?

You might be for real, these are just suspicions, and I'm not making any claims about you. But you said a couple of things that have undermined your credibility in my eyes.

You recommended a book: "The book is "The Case for Kosova" and it is not written by Albanian authors either."

However, a glance at the Amazon reveals that the afterword was written by Ismaïl Kadaré, an Albanian.

You named your "great-great-great..-great uncle" Lef Nosi, born in 1877. That's an awfully long remove. At least, 6 generations. They must have had children very young in your family.

You state on your website that you are 40% Jewish. How is it mathematically possible to be 40%, that is to say, 2/5 parts anything?

What a douchetard idiot!

Yeah I don't know for sure how many "great ...great" ought to prefix "uncle" for Lef Nosi's case, as the genealogy of that branch of my family tree is a bit blurry in my head. Got anything else to nitpick other than
inferring the breeding patterns of my ancestors?

My mother is of Jewish extraction, but I also believe there must have been some intermarriage with Albanians on her side of the family, so I think my likely Jewish lineage is somewhat less than half. Any synapses flashing inside your skull yet?

The main author of the book is Kadare, but he often quotes foreign authors/historians/experts, especially in the parts debunking Robert Spencer's point of contention, it being that "Al Qaeda trained the KLA".

Defending an ethnic/religious cause? First, you and your fellow crusaders/jewhadists are the only ones thinking this is a religious cause. Second, I'm not defending anything: I am merely debunking the bullshit which idiots and/or propagandists like you pull out of their asses from pseudo sources. At least I give facts; you give textbook Serbian propaganda and revisionist accounts of history. If anything, people should be suspicious of what you are in it for.

The question is - on what scale did collaboration occur and how do different countries compare?

Question answered: It is common knowledge that Serbs, with the help of their chetniks, police, and Orthodox church, managed to annihilate at least 11K Jews during the Holocaust.

Got next?

273 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 10:08:04am

re: #270 herekittykitty

uhh, I think you're the clown here.

re: #271 herekittykitty

Charles,

Cleanup on #268...

And you are the sick little creature who up-dinged a post so disgusting in its open glorification of a mass butcher, that it got the poster banned on sight:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Comment #197, calling Karadzic a true hero, not only of Serbian people, but of sane people everywhere in the world.

Check out the dings...

I wish you had made that statements yourself, out in the open, because now you wouldn't be here to take dumps on this thread: your account would too be history.

Here... kitty kitty!

274 herekittykitty  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 10:16:03am

re: #273 medaura18586

Wait, wait, wait... I never even SAW that comment. I wasn't active on that thread. You cannot know whose comments I have dinged. I have never expressed my opinion on Karadzic at all on this blog, and I'm not about to start. Why don't you crawl back under that rock you came from?

275 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 10:20:36am

re: #269 violingirl

You missed my entire point, of course.

First off, some advice: not only does it look better, but it makes you seem way more credible and intelligent if you don't resort to idiotic name calling. Nine times out of ten, people call others offensive names to demean their intelligence because they know that the person they're arguing with is right and they really don't have any response.

Well this must have been the 1 time out of 10, when the person calling you the names you deserve, not only has a response, but is also able and willing to pack a judgment of your character or lack thereof with it.

Second, who are you to talk about propaganda? You spout disgusting anti-Serb propaganda. Maybe you ought to step back and rethink your position.

Oh yes... Thank you for your invitation to reassess. Let me step back and rethink for a minute. ... ... ...

Done.

Propaganda is not what you don't like to hear. I gave sources for everything I claimed. It's common history, taught in textbooks. Nothing controversial.

You are the one fishing unsourced (and easily proven false) drivel off of admittedly shady internet "articles".

I don't think the article was anti-Semitic. I was saying you were anti-Semitic because of your use of the word Zionist. As I said before, calling sources Zionist is what every anti-Semite does to discredit them. People who truly support Israel don't go off on these tangents about Zionism. And yes, I know you claim to be Jewish. That makes not a shred of difference because there are many anti-Semitic Jews (as contradictory as that sounds).

The use of the word Zionist is inherently anti-Semitic? That's news to me. And who would you be? The Jewish pope or the Jewish inquisition, decreeing on what's antisemitic and what's not and libeling people with it? The "source" was not discredited "because" it was Zionist. It was discredited because it was no source at all: a self-referential piece of crap with no outside documents substantiating any of its ridiculous claims. It also happened to be sound like one of those ultra-Zionist "circles" which have allied themselves with crypto-fascist European crusaders and anti-Muslim bigots.

Back to the whole name calling thing, it really only demeans you--I'm not insulted at all because I simply don't take offense easily. But your use of language makes you seem even less intelligent than what your views reveal. Maybe it gives you pleasure or makes you feel powerful to do it over the internet, but in real life, you look like an immature idiot who can't stand to listen to any opposing viewpoint.

You are entitled to your opinions and your "different view points", but you are not entitled to your own facts. Whenever you present revisionist propaganda as historic fact here, I'll come down on your ass (if A van. Hilten doesn't beat me to it).

Deal with it!

276 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 10:28:38am

re: #274 herekittykitty

Wait, wait, wait... I never even SAW that comment. I wasn't active on that thread. You cannot know whose comments I have dinged. I have never expressed my opinion on Karadzic at all on this blog, and I'm not about to start. Why don't you crawl back under that rock you came from?

Oooops... There is no link to your profile telling me which comments you have digned in your LGF life, but each comment has a link to who has dinged it.

I remember that comment for how unusually vile and repugnant it was (enough to merit a deletion) and I saw that one sick f**ck, named 'herekittykitty' had updinged it.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Again, comment #197. Click on the minus next to it, and it gives the usernames of the people who dinged it. The only disgraceful upding came from you, dear!

Also, you can't claim that you didn't see the comment, because people can only ding comments before they are deleted. You obviously read it and approved of it. Perhaps Charles can temporarily reinstate the comment for all to see how vile it was, but I was so scarred that someone would say and/or approve of such evil, that I remember it by heart almost verbatim:

Karadizc was the true hero, not only of the Serbian people, but of all sane people in the world. The ones who call him a murderer while supporting the bombing of Serbia are the true hypocrites who make me sick.

You don't you go hibernate under a rock now? Or you didn't know that your host Charles here is no genocide sympathizer/apologist when you disgraced yourself by updinging that comment? Good thing you're anonymous or your reputation would be over.

277 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 10:48:32am

And to "Colonel Panick" who's been furiously dinging away in lurking mode, and who has himself done his fair share of up dinging vicious genocide sympathizers:

Did you ever get a chance to see that documentary about the Untold Holocaust of Jews in Serbia? You know, the one I provided you a link to, which you reflexively dismissed without even clicking through it as "that book looks like revisionist Croatian propaganda on a cursory glance" thus revealing that you didn't even click through the link, because if you had, you would have known it was a video documentary other than a book, and one cannot give a cursory glance to a video documentary in a few seconds (the time it took you to write that response since I posted the link)?

Aren't you ashamed of yourself? to be so emotionally/psychologically invested as to not want to even click through to see evidence, and to lie about, and to come back here and ding away on the same topic?

You are quite a piece of work...

278 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 10:52:09am

re: #274 herekittykitty

Wait, wait, wait... I never even SAW that comment. I wasn't active on that thread. You cannot know whose comments I have dinged. I have never expressed my opinion on Karadzic at all on this blog, and I'm not about to start. Why don't you crawl back under that rock you came from?

Liar! I wonder how long your shame will last. If ever see you in those threads again, I have proven you a liar and I won't get tired of unearthing these comments to prove it.

279 violingirl  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 10:59:09am

Haha, now I'm a "genocide sympathizer." Yet another bad name to add to my list of bad names I've been called: Nazi, fascist, genocide sympathizer... what's next? War criminal?

Yes, I know I wasn't called a Nazi or a fascist here, but I have been before at other places by other people.

And never mind that I do not endorse Nazi or fascist ideologies, nor do I condone or sympathize with those who commit genocide. Facts like that don't matter when you're smearing someone--just look at our friends on the left. They love to falsely smear people.

And since when were people not allowed to ding comments they want like? I mean, we're not fascist here... or are we?

280 violingirl  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 11:03:28am

medaura18586, why are you so belligerent and angry all the time? Are you incapable of having a civil discussion with people? I don't know if you mean to sound like this, but that tone does come through that way on your comments...

I don't feel like arguing with you anymore. Seriously, I'm sick of it. You can believe what you want, I'll believe what I want. I think it's pretty evident that neither of us will convince the other of our view. I'm very pro-Serbia, you're not, and it looks like it's going to stay that way. We've both provided sources that neither of us approved of. There's nothing else to be said.

281 violingirl  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 11:04:39am

re: #279 violingirl

Should be "And since when were people not allowed to ding comments they like?"

Stupid typo... sorry about that...

282 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 11:28:56am

Stupid is who stupid does...

Haha, now I'm a "genocide sympathizer." Yet another bad name to add to my list of bad names I've been called: Nazi, fascist, genocide sympathizer... what's next? War criminal?

And who bothered calling you that? Are you hallucinating? In my book you're just a revisionist and propagandist so far.

I don't feel like arguing with you anymore. Seriously, I'm sick of it. You can believe what you want, I'll believe what I want. I think it's pretty evident that neither of us will convince the other of our view. I'm very pro-Serbia, you're not, and it looks like it's going to stay that way. We've both provided sources that neither of us approved of. There's nothing else to be said.

Your "pro-Serbia" stance is your dogma. If I put you in a room full of evidence, you'll keep screeching la-la-la-la with your eyes closed and your fingers shutting your ears. The way you talk about it is religious too. "I'll believe what I want"... not "I'll believe what is true"... you sound like a YEC... Your motivations for being so obtuse and willingly deceived are very interesting to me from a purely psychological perspective.

Don't flatter yourself by equivocating our respective positions down to "We've both provided sources that neither of us approved of". You wanting to believe it doesn't make it so. I provided sources; a well researched documentary based on the work of a "Righteous Among the Nations" award recipient (do you know what Israel reserves that award for?), Wikipedia entries with quotable genuine sources, etc. You provided some random link equivalent to nothing more than its author's opinion, with no outside sources to validate the claims made in it.

And since when were people not allowed to ding comments they like?

People are very much encouraged to ding comments they like, actually to make comments they like, and I would personally encourage them to ding or write comments that openly glorify mass murderers so that they'd get one step closer to getting their genocidal-fascist asses banned from this site.

Likewise, people are free to unearth comments other people make or ding, if they think doing so provides valuable insight to said people's character, motivation, sanity, or lack thereof.

I am done arguing with you because I proved everything I needed to... and with just a little help, you started talking like an idiot. Leftists smearing people they don't like? wtf are you talking about...

Anyway, I'm leaving you with another source you will not approve of because it tarnishes your dogma: The Tel Aviv University:

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

283 Josephine  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 11:52:36am

re: #264 violingirl

On the involvement of Catholics in the Holocaust, see this book:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

It's by Gitta Sereny, a very respected author of many excellent books.

Her biography of Albert Speer is very good.

284 Josephine  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 11:56:55am

re: #272 medaura18586

First, you and your fellow crusaders/jewhadists are the only ones thinking this is a religious cause.

"Crusaders"? "Jewhadists?"

That is hateful. Truly disgusting.

285 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 12:06:48pm

re: #265 violingirl

The media was biased against the Serbs and made them seem much worse than they were. Of course they killed people, but the Bosnians and Croats killed WAY more Serbs (including civilians) than the Serbs themselves killed.

"Bosnians and Croats killed WAY more Serbs (including civilians)." Oh, really?

This sort of historic revisionism is tantamount to making excuses for the Serb war criminials that perpetrated the atrocities (Karadzic and Milosevic being two of the most salient in this regard).

Unless you can substantiate your claims, it was Serb war criminals who massacred all those civilians at Srebrenica.

286 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 12:11:22pm

re: #284 Josephine

"Crusaders"? "Jewhadists?"

That is hateful. Truly disgusting.

Funny, I can't seem to recall you getting so worked up by remarks like these (which you know for a fact to be FALSE, if anything because Serbs had the Yugoslav federal army
on their side):

"Bosnians and Croats killed WAY more Serbs (including civilians)."

287 Josephine  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 12:22:08pm

re: #286 A. van Hilten

Funny, I can't seem to recall you getting so worked up by remarks like these (which you know for a fact to be FALSE, if anything because Serbs had the Yugoslav federal army
on their side):

"Bosnians and Croats killed WAY more Serbs (including civilians)."

A. van Hilten,

You make assumptions about me that are incorrect.

I am not sufficiently informed about the subject at hand to know if the remark you quoted was true or false. I have been reading these threads in an effort to become better informed about a very large, complicated topic. I will need to do a lot more reading elsewhere because the only thing I know for a fact is that there are several groups involved in the discussion and each one is absolutely right and the other one is absolutely wrong.

In my defense, I was terribly ill for many years and was not able to keep track of world events in the way that I would have liked.

The comment I objected to is a personal slur directed at a lizard. It does not contain a statement of fact. It is anti-Christian and anti-Jewish. It is hateful and disgusting.

As to questions of historical fact, I have not objected to any, because I am not qualified to do so.

(I will add that the cold-blooded mass murder that took place in Srebrenica was a genocide and was inexcusable.)

288 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 12:25:44pm

re: #270 herekittykitty

uhh, I think you're the clown here.

KittyTheClown:

Registered since: Apr 14, 2007 at 6:15 pm
No. of comments posted: 26

I wonder how many of those comments have been posted on threads related to Serb/White nationalism?

Totten: An Israeli in Kosovo (check!)

Karadzic Arrested, Was Disguised As Doctor (check!)

Another 3600 Words from Fjordman (check!)

Why, all of them! At least those that do come up using the LGF search feature.

Seems these threads are a magnet for the wacky Serbonazi apologists and assorted supremacists.

289 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 12:33:08pm

re: #287 Josephine

A. van Hilten,

You make assumptions about me that are incorrect.

I am not sufficiently informed about the subject at hand to know if the remark you quoted was true or false. I have been reading these threads in an effort to become better informed about a very large, complicated topic. I will need to do a lot more reading elsewhere because the only thing I know for a fact is that there are several groups involved in the discussion and each one is absolutely right and the other one is absolutely wrong.

In my defense, I was terribly ill for many years and was not able to keep track of world events in the way that I would have liked.

The comment I objected to is a personal slur directed at a lizard. It does not contain a statement of fact. It is anti-Christian and anti-Jewish. It is hateful and disgusting.

As to questions of historical fact, I have not objected to any, because I am not qualified to do so.

(I will add that the cold-blooded mass murder that took place in Srebrenica was a genocide and was inexcusable.)

Well, the poster who seems to be making excuses in that regard would be "violingirl." And, yes, it's possible to be a Christian or a Jew and hate other groups of people simply for who they are, not for what they do. If "Jewhadists" or "Crusaders" are disgusting epithets, it is because they're meant to be offensive to those who try to whitewash Serb atrocities.

290 Josephine  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 12:48:02pm

re: #289 A. van Hilten

Well, the poster who seems to be making excuses in that regard would be "violingirl." And, yes, it's possible to be a Christian or a Jew and hate other groups of people simply for who they are, not for what they do. If "Jewhadists" or "Crusaders" are disgusting epithets, it is because they're meant to be offensive to those who try to whitewash Serb atrocities.

So you justify using those slurs against Christians and Jews.

I'm a Christian, so it's okay to use a slur against me, because "medaura" wanted to offend someone else.

Is that where you're both coming from? Anti-Christian and anti-Jewish slurs are okay as epithets?

291 Josephine  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 12:55:34pm

re: #289 A. van Hilten

Plus, you're aware that it is Muslim extremists who typically call Christians crusaders, right?

292 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 1:28:05pm

re: #290 Josephine

So you justify using those slurs against Christians and Jews.

Against Christians and Jews?

Nope.

Against Christians and Jews who make excuses for the likes of Karadzic and Milosevic out of some vile dastardly logic of having blind loyalty to their Serb (read Christian Orthodox) brethren?

Yes. Absolutely.

But you're missing the point here.

A true Christian (and I guess this holds true for Jews as well) would never, ever judge a book by its cover, if you know what I mean.

When people who call themselves Christian make excuses for Serb war criminals, they're acting in a very un-Christian manner. Just like those who don't trust Muslim 'moderates' because of the religion they were born into.

Still, pretty telling that you find that more infuriating than historic revisionism.

293 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 1:44:27pm

re: #291 Josephine

Plus, you're aware that it is Muslim extremists who typically call Christians crusaders, right?

Yeah. Well, Christian Crusaders set themselves up for scorn and derision when they sacked Constantinople, on their way to Jerusalem.

That was after they had actually massacred ALL the Christ-killers Jews of Jersualem during an earlier Crusade. So, yep, terming such narrow-minded Christian bigots "crusaders" is a fair description, as far as I'm concerned.

Extremists of every stripe deserved to be mocked as cruelly as possible.

294 Josephine  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:13:34pm

re: #293 A. van Hilten

Yeah. Well, Christian Crusaders set themselves up for scorn and derision when they sacked Constantinople, on their way to Jerusalem.

That was after they had actually massacred ALL the Christ-killers Jews of Jersualem during an earlier Crusade. So, yep, terming such narrow-minded Christian bigots "crusaders" is a fair description, as far as I'm concerned.

Extremists of every stripe deserved to be mocked as cruelly as possible.

And how many of those crusaders are posting on this thread in August 2008?

295 Josephine  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:32:50pm

re: #292 A. van Hilten

You are quick to jump to conclusions and make sweeping judgments.

I am not infuriated and I can't tell who in this argument is right because, as I explained, I am not well-informed on this issue.

I took issue with a slur against two religions that was used against someone who was not present at the time of the crusades.

"ex cathedra" wrote in part:

"I have nothing to do with Serbia. I've never been to Serbia. I have no Serbian friends or relatives. So I have absolutely no personal bias. I have interest in sifting through gigabytes of Internet forgeries to disprove something I accepted as a fact more than 30 years ago and which is still continually confirmed by Jewish writers."

"medaura" responded in part:

"Defending an ethnic/religious cause? First, you and your fellow crusaders/jewhadists are the only ones thinking this is a religious cause."

I remarked on medaura's comment because she used two ugly terms that are slurs against two large groups of people.

You have excused it every which way but there is no excuse.

You might as well complain that I have not taken issue with everything else that was said on this thread. Whether I remark on anything else or not, I have the right to remark on what I choose.

An atheist making pointed references to what a "true Christian" or "true Jew" should or should not do is laughable. Again, you are quick to state your assumption but you do not know if I am judging any book by its cover.

I am judging the two slurs that medaura used, however: they are ugly.

You seem to be trying to put me on the defensive and it won't work. This is my last comment with you on this issue. You've made it clear to me that you consider it acceptable to use slurs against Christians and Jews if it might offend someone who disagrees with you or medaura (unless you are medaura's sock). I call that fighting dirty; you say it's justified. I call that situational ethics, because let anyone try a slur against your favoured group and I'm guessing it won't be justifiable then.

So, we know where we stand on situational ethics and religiously-based insults. Let's move on, shall we?

296 A. van Hilten  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 3:54:17pm

re: #295 Josephine

You might as well complain that I have not taken issue with everything else that was said on this thread. Whether I remark on anything else or not, I have the right to remark on what I choose.

Of course, you have that right. No one is disputing that.

I was just pointing at the apparent contradiction in taking issue with Medaura's Jewhad comment while glossing over this assertion, which is absurd on its face:

"Bosnians and Croats killed WAY more Serbs (including civilians)."

One doesn't have to be an expert on the Balkans to realise how utterly false that statment is.

Again, Serbs controlled the Yugoslav federal army during the Balkans wars and the other parties had to smugle in weapons because of the UN weapons embargo.

297 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 4:31:36pm

Josephine,

shut your mouth!

"Crusader" is no more of an anti-Christian slur than "jihadist" is an anti-Muslim slur. Of course, you and bigots in this thread and elsewhere might not see a semantic, practical, or ideological distinction between "Muslim" and "jihadist", but I would have though you would be more charitable to your own religion. If you take "crusader" as synonymous with Christian, and take issue with its usage, then that shows what kind of Christian you are. In such case, do, indeed, feel mightily offended, for if you are a Crusader yourself, I meant for you to.

As for "Jewhadism", I myself have learned the term from the deranged blog of now-blocked user BabbaZee (your friend?). No one had taken issue with her using it; is it only offensive when I do?

Both 'crusader' and 'jewhadist' are terms characterizing bigots from either religion (Christianity or Judaism) who think they are engaged in a holy war against Muslims world-wide, and they will ally with the devil (Euro-fascists, Serbo-nazis, etc) to slay their arch-enemy.

If either of these epithets applies to you, wear it with pride.

Now bugger off!

298 A. van Hilten  Thu, Aug 7, 2008 5:27:13am

re: #297 medaura18586

As for "Jewhadism", I myself have learned the term from the deranged blog of now-blocked user BabbaZee (your friend?). No one had taken issue with her using it; is it only offensive when I do?

Actually, yes. And you know why... Remember the reaction to the "Serbs are pricks" remark. It is OK to insult 'certain' groups of people and only certain groups of people... Don't believe me? Try arguing most Nazis (not lil' Adolf, the Fritz down the street burning his Jewish neighbor's synagogue) were born and raised as genuine Christians and see how far you can go.

</sarc, but not really>

299 Jimmah  Thu, Aug 7, 2008 6:08:15pm

re: #297 medaura18586

As for "Jewhadism", I myself have learned the term from the deranged blog of now-blocked user BabbaZee (your friend?). No one had taken issue with her using it; is it only offensive when I do?

Blocked? I missed that....dang. She seemed quite sharp...then she started coming out with all that end-times nonsense. That's when I realised she was a nut.

300 Jimmah  Thu, Aug 7, 2008 7:36:58pm

Medaura, in case you happen to browse this thread again, thought I'd show you this, from an anti-evolution thread on Babbazee's insane blog:

I don't want to reveal the I.P.'s of my last few sock puppets over there by doing a search for the exact quote but the one of whom we are talking 'spit in my face'. She is Stan incarnate. That she would attack a good man, a man of faith like Robert Spencer is right out of the devils playbook.
But first they came for the Storagemanager...
And now no one is left to speak up

ec marm

So not only will the end times soon be upon us, but you are one of the central characters! Somehow I doubt Charles will be having any second thoughts about getting rid of these 'beacons of rationality'.

301 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 8, 2008 7:47:11am

Just for the record, Robert Spencer has posted two different threads about this topic on his blog:

[Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]

[Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]

He has accused Medaura (and probably me too) of being "a couple of pro-Kosovo activists." For someone who accuses others of being harsh, rude and judgmental, his comments at Jihad Watch are a real eye-opener. His own comments section features at least one BNP fascist-sympathizer. Not bad, eh?

Robert Spencer's reponse?

"Comments are unmoderated." Period.

Meaning...

Apaprently he doesn't police his own blog and will let this neo-nazi rubbish stand, even when challenged.

Also, he insists that he's "not responsible for the accuracy of Julia Gorin's articles."

Way to go, man.

If you wanted to pick a fight, Robert, why didn't you do it in the comments section of this blog? At least you could have been upfront and mentioned both of us by our aliases?

Not everyone has a blog with which to attack other people, you know.

302 A. van Hilten  Fri, Aug 8, 2008 8:23:05am

This is the kind of comments you can find at Jihad Watch:

Kosovars: The only Europeans who allowed themselves to be conquered by Muslims. Go figure. Aren't they gypsies or something?

Posted by: Bingo at August 8, 2008 4:54 AM

[Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]

303 medaura18586  Fri, Aug 8, 2008 9:42:54am

Jimmah,

Thanks for making me laugh my ass off!

Those towering geniuses have already been weeded out by Charles, so don't you worry. It's why they're blowing off steam at BabbaZee's blog.

Van Hilten,

There is much more going on in Spencer's threads. He has posters openly praising Milosevic, which he takes no issue with, but he only attacks my husband for pointing our how outrageous that comment was.

I am writing a response article today on my blog. So check it out frequently if you have time.

304 hazzyday  Fri, Aug 8, 2008 10:00:17pm

Medaura, You are damning Robert Spencer for being an unpaid advisor on the Americans for Kosovo Council. He states clearly his total effort is against the Jihad. And politely. You however are full of vile and make no bones about it. I think it affects your judgement. I looked at your links where you claim something about Mr Spencer that links to content that doesn't really back your idea up. It was the pdf link. There is nothing in the pdf itself that supports what you say about Mr. Spencer. Though I am sure you are reading something into it that no one else is. I would re write all that stuff. You comments to him on another thread here and to lizards here make me think you want to force your opinions on other people rather than discuss them.

Like many here I know little of the Balkans conflicts. It seems to take like a life time to get up to speed on it. I do know the Serb's committed atrocities, I also know the Albanians in the Kosovar area also have.

I did have history in this area in school and I think my advice for governments is to not make anything in the balkans a cornerstone in any foreign policy. It's a crossroads of ancient feuds and modern political power grabs.

To be successful there the Serbs are going to be treated fairly. Else they will gear up for war again with the help of Russia or China I think.

I think Europe it self should just be broken up into 100,000 autonomous city states based on however people want to group themselves. Or we should shut off this everyone wants their own country business and force people to get along.

You Albanians and Serbs need a new world order. Hopefully some new religion will come along that can help you both out. I haven't see any peaceful bloggers from either side. Cept for Totten and Spencer.

305 hazzyday  Fri, Aug 8, 2008 10:12:24pm

This part from your site:

"lest his positive, or at least non hysterical message gains any traction with that crowd and prompt readers to question Spencer’s colorful portrayal of Kosovars as Talibans) but to also attack Glenn Reynolds for allegedly being a cultural relativist."

I see nothing in the pdf link to even mentioning the Taliban. Point me to where it's at.

I think he and Reynolds are just disagreeing and not attacking. each other. Both seem to be very grownup about their differences.

I would agree with Spencer that Islam does have violence loaded up front whereas Christianity doesn't. I would agree with Reynolds that violence does work and eventually some Christian will rationalize it out and commit some acts of perverted violence based on their perversion of the religion.

In the west we will catch this person and execute them. In the radical islamic countries that person will be lauded and celebrated.

"traction with that crowd'? That shows me that you are here to manipulate lizards.

And why call Babbazee insane? She is banned. She has made her choices. She did contribute a lot to LGF. She is a little wild to me. But blogs do branch over time. Her usage of the word "Jewhadist" seemed to carry a more benign conotation than your usage.

Maybe I am reading too much into this.

306 A. van Hilten  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:26:21am

re: #305 hazzyday

This part from your site:

"lest his positive, or at least non hysterical message gains any traction with that crowd and prompt readers to question Spencer’s colorful portrayal of Kosovars as Talibans) but to also attack Glenn Re