Geert Wilders and Vlaams Belang?

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
World • Tue Dec 16, 2008 at 3:46 pm PST • Views: 869

At the anti-jihad conference in Jerusalem this past weekend, Dutch MP Geert Wilders told the Haaretz newspaper that he might consider forming an alliance with the Vlaams Belang—which would, in my opinion, be an enormous mistake.

Islamist groups with suspected terror links “displayed an interest” in an anti-jihad conference held in Jerusalem on Sunday, Dutch legislator Geert Wilders told Haaretz yesterday.

In the interview, Wilders also said that he is considering forming an alliance with Belgium’s far-right Vlaams Belang party, which he has hitherto shunned. Belgian Jews have also shunned Vlaams Belang. …

Wilders revealed that if his Party for Freedom - which occupies nine of the Dutch parliament’s 150 seats - runs in European parliamentary elections, he may join Vlaams Belang to form a larger right-wing bloc. Wilders had previously said he would not consider such an alliance.

Belgium’s Jewish leadership has boycotted Vlaams Belang, citing its “strong anti-Semitic characteristics,” and in an interview with Haaretz last year, Wilders cited this in explaining his decision to distance himself from the party.

But now, he said, “there are different sounds coming from Vlaams Belang. Some people say they have changed, even from the Jewish community. That they have changed their tune. Others say they haven’t. I have to look into it and talk to people and study it more. I’m not saying it is impossible.”

However, he added, “we will not ally ourselves with parties like that of France’s Jean-Marie Le Pen.”

If Wilders is concerned about being connected with Jean-Marie Le Pen, he should take careful note of this photograph taken in May 2007 at the funeral of Vlaams Blok founder Karel Dillen, showing Vlaams Blok/Belang leaders Filip DeWinter and Frank Vanhecke, with French National Front leaders Jean-Marie Le Pen and Bruno Gollnisch.

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1 jcm  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:48:59pm

To parrot a vapid moonbat bumper sticker.

Racism is not the answer.

2 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:49:11pm

I suspect Geert know what he's doing. He knows what Vlaams Belang is up to and he seems willing to play ball. He's not misinformed or naive, he making a political move.

3 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:50:21pm

I emailed Geert Wilders and asked him to comment on this. Will post if I get a reply.

4 Killian Bundy  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:51:19pm

re: #3 Charles

I emailed Geert Wilders and asked him to comment on this. Will post if I get a reply.

/that would be better than rank speculation about his motives

5 sheepdog  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:51:35pm

You know what they say , The enemy of my enemy Is my friend( for now)

6 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:51:57pm

re: #3 Charles

Thanks. After seeing some of the reports from the anti-jihad conference he might regard you as the enemy.

7 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:52:13pm

Well that's him off my Christmas list.

8 Outrider  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:52:48pm

Bring out your lurkers! Bring out your lurkers! ;-)>

9 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:53:28pm

I wonder why we don't hear much from Ayaan Hirsi Ali anymore. She may be one of the few rational European voices left.

10 JimmyTheClaw  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:53:59pm

A winter statistic ...
98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH SHIT'
BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A SLIPPERY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM WEST VIRGINIA AND THEY SAY,
'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS.'

11 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:57:24pm

The group he's probably talking about is likely the next attempted iteration of ITS, or "Identity, Tradition, Sovereignty" coalition that melted down over Rom hate.

12 itellu3times  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:57:32pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

I wonder why we don't hear much from Ayaan Hirsi Ali anymore. She may be one of the few rational European voices left.

Unless she's in Los Angeles working on a movie deal.

13 Killian Bundy  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:57:44pm

re: #10 JimmyTheClaw

A winter statistic ...
98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH SHIT'
BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A SLIPPERY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM WEST VIRGINIA AND THEY SAY,
'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS.'

/you can pretty much reverse those percentages for Minnesota (where it's now snowing heavily and the temperature is below 0oF)

14 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:57:56pm

re: #7 Boogberg

Well that's him off my Christmas list.

Yep, no spiral ham headed his way.

15 fish  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:58:37pm

re: #10 JimmyTheClaw

A winter statistic ...
98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH SHIT'
BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A SLIPPERY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM WEST VIRGINIA AND THEY SAY,
'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS.'

West Virginia is not the only place this occurs. In fact here in WI "Watch this" are the most common last words spoken.

16 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:59:07pm
17 Russkilitlover  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 3:59:58pm

An unholy alliance is no alliance at all.

18 cagney  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:02:48pm

re: #2 Killgore Trout

Unfortunately that seems to be the attitude of a lot of people in Europe and the UK when dealing with these parties.

All of the main political parties are chasing the centre ground. There is not much difference between their policies and a genuine lack of connection between politicians and voters. Add this to the traditional voters of these parties feeling ignored by these main parties with their shift to the centre makes them vulnerable to the far-right parties who are willing to listen to them.

19 Buster Bunny  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:03:28pm

JM Le Pen is the wrong sort of conservative element to be allying with. So is Vlaams Belang. But these are being seen as fighting forces in Europe when the government and any REAL right wing forces are yet to show their head as standing up for what they believe in.

I dont believe an alliance on this front is good news. But waiting for the true right wingers to show in time, it may be waiting a bit long.

... where are you guys then?

20 itellu3times  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:04:25pm

I still have an autonomic response to this subject which goes:

Ooo, eee, ooo, ahh, ahh,
Ting, tang, walla-walla ...

21 Buster Bunny  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:05:08pm

re: #16 buzzsawmonkey

Everybody is lonely. Everyone just wants to Belang.

I'm sorry buzzsawmonkey, but that sort of humour is so crass .. deficient ... and rank ...

Definite Upding from me !

22 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:05:17pm

"different sounds coming from VB"...they are changing their tune?...my how cryptic...why dont they just publish their agenda so rubes like me can get a grip?...I feel so left out

23 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:06:33pm

Geert is considering Vlaams because the both belong in the Eeuuroopeeaan Doouublee Vooweel Cluub.

/

24 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:07:10pm
25 ArmyWife  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:07:40pm

I am learning all I can about this group, most especially from Charles' posts, and I am afraid my naivete is going to show in this post. What I see, I do not like at all. Could the reason for the interest in allying be that racist groups (lets call them what they are) aren't concerned with political sensitivities and will say what the others are thinking? The ends don't justify the means, in my book. Why can't leaders on the (real) right stand up and call Islam out for what it is? If enough of the "good guys" do this, jihad loses some oomph, right?

26 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:08:25pm

jockeying...maneuvering...bob and weave...looking for an opening or maybe a weakness...who will scratch my back and at what price?...cover my ass and soften up...lie and deceive...it's not fascism...it's over your head...stay tuned

27 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:08:45pm

re: #22 albusteve

"different sounds coming from VB"...they are changing their tune?...my how cryptic...why dont they just publish their agenda so rubes like me can get a grip?...I feel so left out

They have quite a few times, but it always amorphous and related back to their old manifestos that included things like amnesty for Nazi collaborators, some version of "Flemish Identity", and language restrictions in areas around Brussells that are predominantly French speaking.

28 cagney  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:09:40pm

re: #25 ArmyWife

The reason is that the mainstream parties to the right are moving to the centre, well in the Uk anyway. Saying anything negative about Islam will harm their 'compassionate' image

29 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:10:31pm

re: #22 albusteve

.why dont they just publish their agenda so rubes like me can get a grip?


The already did...
70 steps plan

The first version of the 70 steps plan was presented on June 6, 1992, by frontman Filip Dewinter during the colloquium Immigration: the West has to chose. It wanted to prove that a policy of return of immigrants could be realised.

The plan was heavily criticised because it was considered to be in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). In October 1996 the Vlaams Blok published a new version of the 70 steps plan, which according to the party was completely in line with the ECHR.

The Belgian Centre for Equal Opportunities and Opposition to Racism, in retrospect, called the 70 steps plan "a strategy of aggressive expulsion in order to create a mono-ethnic state."

30 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:12:07pm

re: #27 Thanos

They have quite a few times, but it always amorphous and related back to their old manifestos that included things like amnesty for Nazi collaborators, some version of "Flemish Identity", and language restrictions in areas around Brussells that are predominantly French speaking.

well if they pimp for my vote they can sit down and tell me the rules...like rule #1supremecy...rule #2 extremism etc...like that

31 Buster Bunny  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:12:48pm

re: #25 ArmyWife

The real issue is that the right is being bullied into a silence. And therefore the only right wingers who speak out are these nuts who want to commit genocide on behalf of 'freeing' the people. Thats not a strategic alliance, thats a deal with the devil. And I dont trust the devil to hold his side of the bargain.

32 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:12:51pm

re: #24 cagney

First link under "Like minded links" section is to Lionheart.

33 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:13:18pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

thanks...I've been stupoid...let me read this

34 Elcid  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:13:35pm

Come on, the guy on the left is Rahm Emmanuel.

35 Lynn B.  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:13:35pm
If Wilders is concerned about being connected with Jean-Marie Le Pen, he should take careful note of this photograph taken in May 2007 at the funeral of Vlaams Blok founder Karel Dillen, showing Vlaams Blok/Belang leaders Filip DeWinter and Frank Vanhecke, with French National Front leaders Jean-Marie Le Pen and Bruno Gollnisch.

Not to mention any number of other photos that have been posted here in the last few months.

So far, DeWinter and VB don't seem to be restraining their public behavior much as their newfound friends are in see-no-evil mode, so they're still providing plenty of photo-ops.

/worried that might change

36 cagney  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:15:22pm

re: #32 Thanos

I remember the spat in here with Lionheart but from the page they've got a few Sikhs on board, hardly what you call white supremacists is it?

37 winston06  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:15:47pm

re: #3 Charles

good. I was going to say we should all email him and tell him not to join these moonbats.

38 Racer X  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:19:16pm
39 rightside  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:20:04pm

Interesting... From the National Front Wiki entry:

A return to traditional values: to include making access to abortion more difficult or illegal; giving an income to mothers who do not go out to work; promoting local traditional culture.

Question to NF'ers: Why do any French women work then?

40 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:20:33pm

re: #33 albusteve

the only accounting of the 70 Steps I found was in Dutch...translation link anybody?

41 ornery elephant  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:21:15pm

Is there any Counter-Jihad group or political party with an agenda of anti-jihad located in Europe, that isn't neo-nazi, anti-Semitic, white supremacist, racist or xenophobic?

42 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:21:46pm

Is this a guy who's changed?
De Hitlergroet voor beginners
Yes, He's really giving the Nazi salute in that picture.

43 So?  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:21:46pm

I have a great deal of respect for Geert Wilders. I sincerely hope he doesn't do this.

44 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:23:18pm

re: #36 cagney

I remember the spat in here with Lionheart but from the page they've got a few Sikhs on board, hardly what you call white supremacists is it?

And what brings on that question?

Does a link to Lionheart imply white supremacism, or just poor judgement?

45 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:23:55pm

OT: Jesse Jackson Jr. knew the drill ...



CHICAGO, Dec. 16 -- Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. (D-Ill.) told federal investigators in Chicago that Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich (D) asked for a $25,000 campaign contribution during Blagojevich's 2002 run for governor and may have exacted retribution after he did not receive the money, a source close to Jackson said Tuesday.

The allegation surfaced as a special investigative committee of the Illinois House of Representatives began considering impeachment proceedings against Blagojevich and laid out procedures for reviewing charges against him.

Jackson, who has served in the U.S. House for 13 years, did not make the requested contribution, the source said. After Blagojevich won, Jackson's wife, Sandi Jackson, sought appointment as director of the Illinois state lottery director but failed to get the job.

Later, when Blagojevich and the congressman met at a function in Washington, D.C., according to the source, the governor referred to the campaign request, saying roughly this: "Well, I guess you wish you'd given me that $25,000 now."

So now we know why Blago wanted to see "Senate Candidate 1's" moeny up front - because he had been stiffed before. And JJ Jr.'s "Sgt Schultz" defense obviously now holds no water - he had been shaken down before and knew exactly what Blago was after.

46 cagney  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:24:28pm

#44

Thing is Thanos, you tell me since you brought it up?

47 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:24:52pm

re: #41 ornery elephant

Is there any Counter-Jihad group or political party with an agenda of anti-jihad located in Europe, that isn't neo-nazi, anti-Semitic, white supremacist, racist or xenophobic?

The Labour party?

48 So?  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:25:22pm

re: #25 ArmyWife

I am learning all I can about this group, most especially from Charles' posts, and I am afraid my naivete is going to show in this post. What I see, I do not like at all. Could the reason for the interest in allying be that racist groups (lets call them what they are) aren't concerned with political sensitivities and will say what the others are thinking? The ends don't justify the means, in my book. Why can't leaders on the (real) right stand up and call Islam out for what it is? If enough of the "good guys" do this, jihad loses some oomph, right?

The good guys are in bed with too many Jihad backed countries like Saudi Arabia and so don't have the balls to speak out lest their oil allowance be shut off.

49 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:25:39pm

re: #46 cagney

#44

Thing is Thanos, you tell me since you brought it up?


No, I'm interested in why you immediately implied white supremacism, got an answer?

50 ArmyWife  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:26:11pm

re: #42 Killgore Trout

Disgusting. A deal with the devil indeed. The real answer is not allowing the nuts to be the mouths speaking out about Islam, otherwise it becomes nutty to do so.

51 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:26:19pm

what's in the 70 Step Plan from 1992?

52 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:26:31pm

re: #45 karmic_inquisitor

Pimf - "Senate Candidate 5's" money

53 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:26:32pm

re: #45 karmic_inquisitor

OT: Jesse Jackson Jr. knew the drill ...

So now we know why Blago wanted to see "Senate Candidate 1's" ...

Wasn't Jessie JAckson Jr. Senate Candidate 5 in the released transcripts, not number "1.?"

54 ArmyWife  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:26:43pm

re: #48 So?

What a tangled mess, isn't it?

55 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:27:07pm

re: #46 cagney

#44

Thing is Thanos, you tell me since you brought it up?

Can you tell me why they feel the need to black out faces in their photo galleries Cagney?

56 Joan  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:27:12pm

re: #43 So?

Europeans who are rattled by the overwhelming struggle against Islamicization of their countries are tempted to turn a blind eye to atavistic strands of political resistance. They are unable to turn back the tide of demographics, or to shake loose from the paralysis of will that results from leftism and multiculturalism. They only know of "right" and "nationalism" as antidote--they tell themselves it is a marriage of convenience. They want to overlook that they've taken Bluebeard to their bed.

57 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:27:22pm

who has Geerts phone number?

58 invictus1  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:27:24pm

re: #41 ornery elephant

Is there any Counter-Jihad group or political party with an agenda of anti-jihad located in Europe, that isn't neo-nazi, anti-Semitic, white supremacist, racist or xenophobic?

I don't know - but the sooner there is one, the better.

59 cagney  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:27:31pm

re: #49 Thanos

Why the third degree?

I was about with the spat about Lionheart and it was about his support of the BNP. You don't need to be Sherlock to figure out why I mentioned it, do you?

60 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:28:18pm

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

Wasn't Jessie JAckson Jr. Senate Candidate 5 in the released transcripts, not number "1.?"

Yes - see my pimf. Sorry - my bad.

61 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:28:34pm

re: #59 cagney

Why the third degree?

I was about with the spat about Lionheart and it was about his support of the BNP. You don't need to be Sherlock to figure out why I mentioned it, do you?

So why do you think they need to black out the faces of their marchers in their own photo galleries?

62 cagney  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:28:47pm

re: #55 Thanos

How do I know? Want to contact the site and ask them?

63 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:28:48pm

re: #60 karmic_inquisitor

Yes - see my pimf. Sorry - my bad.

Saw it, posted right before my inquiry. Got it.

64 invictus1  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:28:56pm

re: #51 albusteve

what's in the 70 Step Plan from 1992?

[Link: translate.google.com...]

65 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:29:18pm

If it walks, talks, and quacks like a duck, chances are it has a drake for a husband.

66 wolfie  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:29:30pm

re: #42 Killgore Trout

I can't read the Dutch (Flemish?).

67 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:29:31pm

re: #62 cagney

How do I know? Want to contact the site and ask them?

Do you care?

68 ornery elephant  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:31:12pm

re: #61 Thanos

So why do you think they need to black out the faces of their marchers in their own photo galleries?

Maybe they don't want to be killed by jihadis

69 So?  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:31:14pm

re: #54 ArmyWife

What a tangled mess, isn't it?

Yup! When it comes to high finance and politics there are always the Bernard Madoff's of the world. Imagine a longtime Wall Street executive cheating investors worldwide out of $50 billion! Politicians are no better. I'm going to watch some music on YouTube.

70 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:32:03pm

re: #68 ornery elephant

Maybe they don't want to be killed by jihadis

Maybe, but unlikely. I don't trust people who hide their faces, it's what our foes do.

71 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:32:12pm

re: #64 invictus1

[Link: translate.google.com...]

thank you so much...

72 Buster Bunny  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:32:12pm

re: #48 So?

The good guys are in bed with too many Jihad backed countries like Saudi Arabia and so don't have the balls to speak out lest their oil allowance be shut off.

With good guys like that, who needs bad guys?

73 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:32:19pm

Want to know what fact confirms how deep corruption is in Illinois?

They have not had an impeachment in their 175 year history. No judges. No officials. No governors. Nada.

Here is the wiki list of US impeachments.

74 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:32:27pm

re: #61 Thanos

So why do you think they need to black out the faces of their marchers in their own photo galleries?

The same reason that Ku Klux Klan-ers wear white hoods?

75 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:33:46pm

re: #51 albusteve

70 step plan

76 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:34:15pm

re: #70 Thanos

Maybe, but unlikely. I don't trust people who hide their faces, it's what our foes do.

Did it leave?

77 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:34:20pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

70 step plan

got it...thanks a lot

78 debutaunt  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:34:25pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

I wonder why we don't hear much from Ayaan Hirsi Ali anymore. She may be one of the few rational European voices left.

Recent article [Link: www.aei.org...]

79 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:34:47pm

A little OT, but with Obama's choice of Arne Duncan as the "to be" Education Secretary, he only has two more crooked politicians left to appoint to his cabinet. Blagojevich and Daley! I haved lived here in the Chicago area for nearly ten years and have never been happier about the prospective good things that we can expect from the outcome of all of this. I am just sorry that it took Obama getting elected to remove the corrupted politicians here in Illinois!

80 cagney  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:37:31pm

re: #70 Thanos

The problem there isn't any anti-jihad movements in the UK that are not related to the far right and not any patriotic movements that are multi-racial or multi-faith. As long as they state their aims are multi-racial/faith then they have to be ok?

81 Gitarzan  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:37:40pm

re: #45 karmic_inquisitor

DING DING DING...we have a winnah!

Blago's apparent propensity to ask for a little something to grease the skids for state business couldn't have been a secret to anyone even vaguely connected to Illinois/Chicago politics, but Jesse Jr. apparently didn't pay attention to how his father operates to see what happens when you don't pay the extortionists shakedown artists.

82 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:38:23pm

re: #79 lone_wolf_in_illinois

Chicago politics. meet reform...

83 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:39:46pm

re: #82 HoosierHoops

Chicago politics. meet reform...

Yea sure.

84 nyc redneck  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:39:50pm

why do they think that nazis can change their spots?
i question their judgment.
it seems an act of desperation to pretend that the nazis are the good guys now
and appropriate people to mingle w/.

85 Yankee Division Son  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:39:55pm

I cannot stand these RatZis.. it's sad to think there are still people like them in the world.

"I think that if you treat a skunk nicely, he will not piss on you,... as often."
- General George Patton Jr.

86 Buster Bunny  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:41:35pm

re: #84 nyc redneck

why do they think that nazis can change their spots?
i question their judgment.
it seems an act of desperation to pretend that the nazis are the good guys now
and appropriate people to mingle w/.

But they throw the best parties !

/sarc

87 invictus1  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:42:41pm

re: #82 HoosierHoops

Chicago politics. meet reform...

Oil, meet water...

88 nyc redneck  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:42:51pm

re: #57 albusteve

who has Geerts phone number?

who has geert's hairdresser's phone number?

89 gop_patriot  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:43:28pm

re: #73 karmic_inquisitor

Weird, my post vanished when I switched tabs. Hope I don't double post.

Anyway, looks like Number 11 was from Illinois, but he resigned and the US Senate dismissed the charges, so maybe he doesn't count... :/

90 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:43:39pm

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

Yea sure.

Walter..I am the most positive person you will ever meet.. There is a chance for long term reform in Chicago. Things change..
I'll put a little faith in our neighbors up north.

91 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:45:21pm

re: #80 cagney

We allied with Stalin... what number was that?

Cagney, you brought this group up, you are getting mighty defensive early on, which makes me more suspicious. I'm withholding judgement until I dig into them some more. If you think this is the third degree, you are pretty thin skinned for a lizard.

I found this, it's got both positive and negative in it, looks like they are "English Nationalists", but willing to ally with others. On the other hand in this vid of one of their supported causes you see skinheads, but also them in alliance with Jewish counterprotestors.

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

92 Pyroskank  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:45:40pm

Geert! Nooo!
::falls on knees, dramatically::

93 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:45:46pm

My father, and both my father's and mother's brothers, fought against the Nazis in WW II. One of my uncles died of wounds he received in that war. Many other Americans also have ancestors who died fighting the Reich.

If the euro antijihadis are seduced into an alliance with the ideological heirs of these twisted bastards, it's an absolute dealbreaker for me. NO WAY will I share the same foxhole with those whose ideological ancestors my father's generation fought and bled and died to defeat. I might as well piss on their graves.

94 Racer X  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:47:03pm

Mt Wilson - Nice!

Quick! Look now!

95 Joan  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:47:25pm

re: #93 Salamantis

My father, and both my father's and mother's brothers, fought against the Nazis in WW II. One of my uncles died of wounds he received in that war. Many other Americans also have ancestors who died fighting the Reich.

If the euro antijihadis are seduced into an alliance with the ideological heirs of these twisted bastards, it's an absolute dealbreaker for me. NO WAY will I share the same foxhole with those whose ideological ancestors my father's generation fought and bled and died to defeat. I might as well piss on their graves.

Superb.

96 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:47:39pm

re: #94 Racer X

Mt Wilson - Nice!

Quick! Look now!

just beautiful!

97 Yankee Division Son  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:48:26pm

re: #93 Salamantis

I absolutely agree. My Father and uncles fought alongside yours, and I couldn't agree more. One uptick coming up...

98 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:48:44pm

People need to realize that "Socialists", like the USSR, China, Vietnam, Cuba ,etc., have killed more innocents than the Nazi's. It's not a line of Right wing and Left wing, it is a circle of EVIL. And people here are on the opposite side of the circle, we will stand against either group on the other side of circle. Remember, the Nazi's and the SOCIALISTS both claimed Poland until they screwed each other over. But the nut jobs at Daily Komies and The Huffington Parasites don't want to admit THEY are on the same side of circle with the Neo-Nazinutjobs. I THINK like George Patton did. When he took down the Nazi's in Germany he wanted to take on the USSR after that. What we got in return for not doing that then was the Korean and Vietnam Wars. And Obama wants to get his own Vietnam War repeat in Afghanistan?

99 gop_patriot  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:48:57pm

re: #42 Killgore Trout

Is this a guy who's changed?
De Hitlergroet voor beginners
Yes, He's really giving the Nazi salute in that picture.

It is astonishing to me that politicians in Europe are publicly (or otherwise) giving the Nazi salute in my lifetime. Sick.

100 jwb7605  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:49:13pm

re: #94 Racer X

Mt Wilson - Nice!

Quick! Look now!

Wasn't Godzilla there yesterday? What happened?

101 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:50:18pm

re: #89 gop_patriot

Weird, my post vanished when I switched tabs. Hope I don't double post.

Anyway, looks like Number 11 was from Illinois, but he resigned and the US Senate dismissed the charges, so maybe he doesn't count... :/

But the state of Illinois has never had an impeachment trial. They have had a target rich environment, but it has been federal prosecutors who have done much of the corruption fighting. The State of Illinois has yet to establish an ability to police itself when it comes to political corruption.

102 ornery elephant  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:50:33pm

Just curious...is the term "nationalist" or "nationalism" derogatory?

I found this:

Nationalism. noun:

"devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism."

Dictionary...

103 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:51:47pm

re: #90 HoosierHoops

Walter..I am the most positive person you will ever meet.. There is a chance for long term reform in Chicago. Things change.. I'll put a little faith in our neighbors up north.

I tend toward being a most realistic person. And I try not to operate from a faith-based perspective. The Chicago stuff is just the tip of the iceberg. There is a foundation bigger than anything that anyone "down here" can ever expect to effect any change against.

But that's just me.

105 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:52:55pm

re: #100 jwb7605

Wasn't Godzilla there yesterday? What happened?

Yep..I saw that pic yesterday posted here...
The backstory is that he took a peek through the telescope..signed a few autographs was later seen in a couple trendy clubs in LA..
Godzilla rocks

106 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:52:57pm

re: #99 gop_patriot

He's very public about it. He publicly marched to lay flowers on Nazi graves (I think he was arrested for this) and proudly display a white power symbol in his office. What's even more amazing is that there are still people who think he's not a racist nazi.

107 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:53:45pm

re: #102 ornery elephant

Just curious...is the term "nationalist" or "nationalism" derogatory?

I found this:

Nationalism. noun:

"devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism."

Dictionary...

In the blood and soil tradition of Europe, all nationalist movements in the past century and farther have tradtionally been ethnic nationalists. And ethnic nationalists are fascist racists.

108 wiffersnapper  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:54:12pm

Geert is my hero, but not if he does what I think he's gonna do.

109 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:54:29pm

re: #106 Killgore Trout

He's very public about it. He publicly marched to lay flowers on Nazi graves (I think he was arrested for this) and proudly display a white power symbol in his office. What's even more amazing is that there are still people who think he's not a racist nazi.

Well, there are people who don't think Obama is a Marxist, and Obama has...

110 Killian Bundy  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:54:36pm

Legalizing Marijuana Tops Obama Online Poll

Be careful what you wish for.

Last week, the website Change.gov — the official website of the Obama Transition Team — asked the public to provide them with a list of the top public policy questions facing America. Visitors to the site were then asked to vote on which questions should take priority for the incoming administration.

According to the website, “participation … outpaced our expectations. … Since its launch … the Open for Questions tool has processed over 600,000 votes from more than 10,000 people on more than 7,300 questions.”

Ironically but perhaps not surprisingly the top question for the new administration — as chosen on and voted by the general public — was one most politicians seem utterly unwilling to talk about.

“Will you consider legalizing marijuana so that the government can regulate it, tax it, put age limits on it, and create millions of new jobs and create a billion dollar industry right here in the U.S.?”

/gee, that explains a lot about Obama voters, why am I not surprised?

111 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:54:59pm

from what I gather from the 70 Steps there is certainly a strong sense of nationalism/protectionism...I can see where many Americans would find the straightforeward motives to be innocuous enough...deporting undocumented and criminal aliens and those who's visas have expired...it calls for more strict immigration policy and regs for citizenship...is this a bad thing...

but shutting down free speech and closing mosques and the otherwise full assault on Islam makes me feel uncomfortable but I'm not Dutch...I dont find the language to be particularly racist or extreme...maybe I'm missing something...an IQ of 167 doesnt get you much these days...

112 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:55:32pm

re: #102 ornery elephant

Just curious...is the term "nationalist" or "nationalism" derogatory?

I found this:

Nationalism. noun:

"devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism."

Dictionary...

If someone is described as "nationalist" vs. "patriotic" I assume a different meaning with nationalist being chauvinistic / bigoted.

113 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:55:40pm

re: #103 Walter L. Newton

I tend toward being a most realistic person. And I try not to operate from a faith-based perspective. The Chicago stuff is just the tip of the iceberg. There is a foundation bigger than anything that anyone "down here" can ever expect to effect any change against.

But that's just me.

one man/woman can change the course of history...
For better or for worse...
Cold tonight Walter?
Regards

114 jwb7605  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:56:37pm

re: #107 Salamantis

In the blood and soil tradition of Europe, all nationalist movements in the past century and farther have tradtionally been ethnic nationalists. And ethnic nationalists are fascist racists.

Would Pat Buchanan qualify as a "nationalist"?
also, what about all the leftists that hate "free trade agreements"?

In the second case, they preach "racial tolerance" but practice something else entirely (IMHO).

115 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:57:05pm

re: #110 Killian Bundy

Legalizing Marijuana Tops Obama Online Poll

/gee, that explains a lot about Obama voters, why am I not surprised?

Oh, man, I can see the 0 and his team rubbing their hands together and laughing maniacally over this one. "Look, Mr. President, they REALLY are that stupid! This is going to be like taking candy from a baby"

116 Silhouette  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:57:07pm

re: #110 Killian Bundy

Gosh, I hope that's all they want.

Maybe if we give them that first, they'll forget about demanding communist healthcare and America's surrender on all fronts of the war against jihad.

117 cagney  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:57:12pm

re: #91 Thanos

I can understand your motives for wanting more information. Appreciate this medium of communication makes it hard to get where a person comes from but from your first post, I wasn't sure if you accusatory or just pointing out.

It is hard coming from the UK to see anything positive on the horizon concerning radical Islam especially when our politicians are bending over backwards for the Muslim vote and turning a blind eye to the radical elements in their community.

118 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:57:41pm

re: #101 karmic_inquisitor

But the state of Illinois has never had an impeachment trial. They have had a target rich environment, but it has been federal prosecutors who have done much of the corruption fighting. The State of Illinois has yet to establish an ability to police itself when it comes to political corruption.

They had one way back in the 1800's I believe, it was a judge.

119 Joan  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:57:49pm

re: #102 ornery elephant

Just curious...is the term "nationalist" or "nationalism" derogatory?

I found this:

Nationalism. noun:

"devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism."

Dictionary...

In the blood and soil tradition of Europe, all nationalist movements in the past century and farther have tradtionally been ethnic nationalists. And ethnic nationalists are fascist racists.

Good summary. Over here, sometimes the left "one world" advocates use the term "nationalistic" to demean national sovereignty and patriotism. So, like all words, there are contexts, and it is good to consider the source.

I may have to update my decoder ring, however, because I've always bristled when "one world" liberals sniff and sneer about nationalism, when they are deriding U.S. or other national sovereignty.

120 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:58:04pm

re: #115 CapeCoddah

Oh, man, I can see the 0 and his team rubbing their hands together and laughing maniacally over this one. "Look, Mr. President, they REALLY are that stupid! This is going to be like taking candy from a baby"

That or "Maybe we can legalize a little blow while we are at it."

121 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:58:09pm

re: #113 HoosierHoops

one man/woman can change the course of history...
For better or for worse...
Cold tonight Walter?
Regards

Nope, the sun down and it's 32, kind of warm. Not sure why, but I am reading something by someone named Al Gore, something about global warming. He's predicting it's going to be a major issue sometime in the future. Maybe he should run for president?

122 ornery elephant  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:58:42pm

re: #107 Salamantis

In the blood and soil tradition of Europe, all nationalist movements in the past century and farther have tradtionally been ethnic nationalists. And ethnic nationalists are fascist racists.

So a British citizen who despairs over the onset of sharia law in her country, who stands up and speaks to preserving British law and culture from a muslim invasion is thus an ethnic nationalist and thus a fascist racist?

124 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:58:58pm

re: #120 karmic_inquisitor

That or "Maybe we can legalize a little blow while we are at it."

Please don't give them any more bright ideas.

125 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:59:09pm

re: #102 ornery elephant

Just curious...is the term "nationalist" or "nationalism" derogatory?

I found this:

Nationalism. noun:

"devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism."

Dictionary...

No, not at all. Put the word "Tribal" or "Identity" in front of however and you have a problem.

126 Silhouette  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 4:59:30pm

re: #110 Killian Bundy

“Will you consider legalizing marijuana so that the government can regulate it, tax it, put age limits on it, and create millions of new jobs and create a billion dollar industry right here in the U.S.?”

LOL!

That may win some prize as a leading question.

127 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:00:07pm

re: #114 jwb7605

Would Pat Buchanan qualify as a "nationalist"?
also, what about all the leftists that hate "free trade agreements"?

In the second case, they preach "racial tolerance" but practice something else entirely (IMHO).

Yeah, that crepuscular old crypto-antisemite would qualify. And knee-jerk opposition to free trade agreements is naive nativist protectionism. Trade creates jobs. And we have seen in the '30's what protectionist trade policies do to everyone (Smoot-Hawley).

128 gop_patriot  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:00:10pm

re: #101 karmic_inquisitor

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. :)

129 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:01:03pm

re: #115 CapeCoddah

Oh, man, I can see the 0 and his team rubbing their hands together and laughing maniacally over this one. "Look, Mr. President, they REALLY are that stupid! This is going to be like taking candy from a baby"

pot is not legal for one reason only...the criminalization is a multi billion dollar operation...it's a digrace

130 Ojoe  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:01:11pm

re: #110 Killian Bundy

Now that's madness.

Billion dollar industry indeed.

Hey man, a, what's huh? America, where is that? We're in it? Wow, cool man.

131 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:01:19pm

re: #117 cagney

It was just pointing it out. I'm tracking a trend of people rebranding and realigning, and I've just got the radar on to see if they are truly losing the evil baggage & people, or if it's just a facile mask.

132 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:01:39pm

re: #121 Walter L. Newton

Nope, the sun down and it's 32, kind of warm. Not sure why, but I am reading something by someone named Al Gore, something about global warming. He's predicting it's going to be a major issue sometime in the future. Maybe he should run for president?

We hired a guy from Denver a couple of weeks ago..It's Denver this and Denver that every sentence..Cool Guy and I'm learning alot about the Area.
He told me today that yesterday when it was -18 below it was the coldest for that day in 57 odd years.
We had an ice storm this afternoon.. It took FOREVER to get home tonight...

133 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:02:36pm

re: #129 albusteve

pot is not legal for one reason only...the criminalization is a multi billion dollar operation...it's a digrace

Sorry man, for THAT question, out of 3700 questions to garner the most support is just a sad, and very telling day for America.

134 Racer X  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:03:26pm

Potheads don't bust open your skull for $20 to get their next fix. Crackheads do.

I'm all for legalizing weed.

135 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:03:31pm

Some people say that the situation in Europe is desperate, that they have to take drastic measures or all will be lost. I am now starting to read the same kind of panicked lack-of-thinking recommended for the USA.

"Democracy" is a word and an idea. There are now mass "democracies," in which the populace, the victim of educational malpractice, and social instability, largely ignorant and mass-distracted, is asked for its vote, and is supposed to be able to understood such matters as Islam, and anthropogenic climate change. Countries with tens or hundreds of millions of people, grasping elites, themselves so often as ill-informed and ignorant -- or even more so -- than those they claim to be able to instruct and protect, are not like Greek city-states. There is no Periclean Athens, because there is unlikely, in the political system today, for a Pericles to appear, much less to triumph. Democracies have been, for a time, ruled by elites who manage to keep control. They work best when they are elites of talent and intelligence, and not -- as they are in so many places today -- merely a financial elite.

Even as recently as the 1940s, the pool of people from whom the rulers were chosen were a small group. Fortunately, Winston Churchill was one of them.

This giddy globe, with here and there a few notable exceptions, is largely ill-led. We'll see what happens. But why make a fetish, why put all of one's hope, in "democracy" as it is understood today?
Posted by: Hugh

This guy is one of the contributors at Jihad Watch. And he doesn't stop there.

136 gop_patriot  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:03:37pm

re: #106 Killgore Trout

He's very public about it. He publicly marched to lay flowers on Nazi graves (I think he was arrested for this) and proudly display a white power symbol in his office. What's even more amazing is that there are still people who think he's not a racist nazi.

Yep, I remember those things being discussed here.

It is still tough for me to wrap my head around anyone doing those things publicly, and not being run out of town on a rail- much less being praised by people who should know better as allies. It's outrageous.

137 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:03:52pm

It looks like there is a little more to the story than we fist knew...

Spokesman: Jackson Jr. a past informant in Illinois probe

"Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., who was cited in a criminal complaint against Rod Blagojevich, has been an informant for at least a decade with the U.S. Attorney's office, a Jackson spokesman said Tuesday."

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

138 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:03:59pm

re: #111 albusteve

The orginal version had a check back two generations and deport segment.

139 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:04:00pm

re: #133 CapeCoddah

Sorry man, for THAT question, out of 3700 questions to garner the most support is just a sad, and very telling day for America.

it should hardly be an issue at all...more of an afterthought...pass the Red Stripe

140 Joan  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:04:46pm

re: #111 albusteve

...but shutting down free speech and closing mosques and the otherwise full assault on Islam makes me feel uncomfortable but I'm not Dutch...I dont find the language to be particularly racist or extreme...maybe I'm missing something...an IQ of 167 doesnt get you much these days...

The 70 Steps are too many steps, in my opinion. And, despite the language, it is dangerous to shut down free speech and close down mosques. Far better to uphold equal free speech for others besides Muslims, and halt any new mosque or other religious construction.

These measures, some of them, actually endanger the very freedoms they seek to preserve; they inflame by example, could lead to real reprisals against Muslim people; and, worst of all unintended consequences, will galvanize the intifada and jihadi legions. This way lies defeat for the very national cultures and democracies they seek to preserve.

The strengthening needs to happen on many fronts, not just laws and borders. The strongest weapons are courage, freedom, unity of will among the people. That's what these secret, neo-nazi types are selling, but it is a counterfeit, a poison that will kill the resistance.

141 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:05:01pm

re: #122 ornery elephant

So a British citizen who despairs over the onset of sharia law in her country, who stands up and speaks to preserving British law and culture from a muslim invasion is thus an ethnic nationalist and thus a fascist racist?

Islam is not an ethnicity.

142 jwb7605  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:05:01pm

re: #134 Racer X

Potheads don't bust open your skull for $20 to get their next fix. Crackheads do.

I'm all for legalizing weed.

That would be the simplest way to get the nation do drive 55 mph.
Or so I've been told.

143 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:05:34pm

re: #132 HoosierHoops

We hired a guy from Denver a couple of weeks ago..It's Denver this and Denver that every sentence..Cool Guy and I'm learning alot about the Area.
He told me today that yesterday when it was -18 below it was the coldest for that day in 57 odd years.
We had an ice storm this afternoon.. It took FOREVER to get home tonight...

He needs to check the record books, that broke a over hundred year record for that day 1901.

144 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:05:51pm

re: #36 cagney

I remember the spat in here with Lionheart but from the page they've got a few Sikhs on board, hardly what you call white supremacists is it?

The "spat" with Lionheart?

He called me a race traitor who deserved to be executed like a Nazi collaborator.

That's a "spat" to you?

145 ornery elephant  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:07:05pm

re: #141 Boogberg

exactly.

146 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:07:19pm

re: #138 Thanos

The orginal version had a check back two generations and deport segment.

and it was revised some few years later..I'm gonna find that one too...the language in this version can surly be construed as a launching point for even more radical thought

147 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:07:30pm

re: #122 ornery elephant

So a British citizen who despairs over the onset of sharia law in her country, who stands up and speaks to preserving British law and culture from a muslim invasion is thus an ethnic nationalist and thus a fascist racist?

Members of the BNP sure the hell are. They wanna use disenfranchisement and mass deportation as weapons against a targeted minority class.

We've seen ideas like those gain popularity before. Kristallnicht followed. And once Europe hits that tipping point, things can get very ugly there very quickly, just like they have before. And then another generation of Americans has to spill its blood on European soil.

Instead, there should be freedom of speech and religion for all, barriers to none, and zero tolerance for religious violence and intimidation from anyone. Don't allow people to get shafted in the first place; shafting back is no solution whatsoever.

148 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:08:43pm

re: #146 albusteve

that was pretty friggin creepy that section...I didnt miss it...a veritable round up

149 Racer X  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:08:53pm

re: #110 Killian Bundy

According to the website, “participation … outpaced our expectations. … Since its launch … the Open for Questions tool has processed over 600,000 votes from more than 10,000 people on more than 7,300 questions.”

Something looks funny to me. 10,000 people voted sixty times each? Just how powerful do they think the president is? His job is to keep America secure and sign bills from congress into law.

I wonder how many questions pertained to puppy dogs, rainbows, ponies, and free stuff?

150 pingjockey  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:09:00pm

Nazis is Nazis. I don't care what the fuck they're calling themselves. They don't change spots or their tune!

151 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:10:03pm
152 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:10:46pm

re: #134 Racer X

Potheads don't bust open your skull for $20 to get their next fix. Crackheads do.

I'm all for legalizing weed.

ooo..I don't know about that RacerX..
We raised 5 kids and the youngest is now 16. Raising children and trying to get them to live up to their potential is hard enough without having stoned out teenagers..We had a couple issues with a few a the kids.. But we were so lucky for our oldest boy being so athletic and anti-drugs.. He really seemed to keep his brothers and sisters in line...That and Mom..
I guess if adults want to smoke pot..I guess it's OK. But i don't want to be legal for a kid to try it...I'm rambling aren't I?

153 Occasional Reader  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:10:46pm
But now, he said, “there are different sounds coming from Vlaams Belang.

Um, Geert, those sounds are the "Horst Wessel Song".

154 cagney  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:10:59pm

re: #131 Thanos

I have to put my hand up and plead naivety. I checked the site and saw details of Sikh victimisation and jumped the gun into thinking that they are automatically ok.

re: #135 wrenchwench

The situation in Europe and the UK isn't that bad but there is frustration about the lack of exposure about this problem in the media and the lack of interest mainstream political parties to maintain political correctness.

155 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:11:02pm
156 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:11:20pm

Here's more from that same JW contributor. Ornery, this one addresses "nationalism."

It may well be nationalism, or a sense of the West's supremacy that not all will find attractive, that will turn out to be the most effective and resilient enemy of Islam. The desire for a "freedom" that is subject to a variety of interpretations is certainly is important, but sentimentality about this "freedom" should not be allowed to get in the way of accurately fathoming the deepest wellsprings of action.

He's advocating the use of a sense of supremacy instead of a "sentimentality" about freedom.

157 right_on_target  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:11:24pm

re: #134 Racer X

Potheads don't bust open your skull for $20 to get their next fix. Crackheads do.

I'm all for legalizing weed.


___
I work offshore sometimes; I don't want anybody who had smoked a joint to be anywhere around me or controlling machinery around me. The offshore oil industry environment can be extremely dangerous.
Ever see a guy get his hand pulled off because... "wow, that's cool, let me hold on"? Doesn't look too good.
When they industry instituted a ZERO policy against MJ [which was the chief dope] accidents and deaths went down.
Even chronic dope smokers couldn't be trusted because they were really UN-SAFE to be around.

158 Joan  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:11:26pm

re: #122 ornery elephant

So a British citizen who despairs over the onset of sharia law in her country, who stands up and speaks to preserving British law and culture from a muslim invasion is thus an ethnic nationalist and thus a fascist racist?

No. I wouldn't say that. I'd say beware, be wary of moving from resolve and determination to preserve national sovereignty, into countermeasures that are at best double-edged swords. Stand for freedom, for upholding freedom, administered impartially. Fight back as you can, be careful the company you keep.

I don't know politics, certainly not beyond my own shores. I deeply sympathize with your dilemma. We will all have to sort this out, and resist, to preserve what is good and not find ourselves trapped in a fascist nationalist movement, or overrun by theological fascists.

159 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:11:26pm

re: #139 albusteve

it should hardly be an issue at all...more of an afterthought...pass the Red Stripe

Sorry, we can agree to disagree. Obama is against the population arming itself, but for the legalization of drugs. Nice combo. Goddamned dangerous, and irresopnsible on OUR parts to let that become reality.

160 solomonpanting  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:12:09pm

re: #151 buzzsawmonkey

My Sweet Lord, that was good!

161 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:12:12pm

re: #141 Boogberg

Islam is not an ethnicity.

Religious bigotry is just as reprehensible as is sexism or racism. Reprehensible when it comes from Muslims, and reprehensible when it is directed towards them.

People should be punished for bad actions, not for different thoughts.

162 jaunte  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:12:15pm

re: #80 cagney

The problem there isn't any anti-jihad movements in the UK that are not related to the far right and not any patriotic movements that are multi-racial or multi-faith

This statement has been made before, and it raises a couple of questions:
1. Why not?
2. What are you waiting for?

163 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:12:19pm

re: #140 Joan

The 70 Steps are too many steps, in my opinion. And, despite the language, it is dangerous to shut down free speech and close down mosques. Far better to uphold equal free speech for others besides Muslims, and halt any new mosque or other religious construction.

These measures, some of them, actually endanger the very freedoms they seek to preserve; they inflame by example, could lead to real reprisals against Muslim people; and, worst of all unintended consequences, will galvanize the intifada and jihadi legions. This way lies defeat for the very national cultures and democracies they seek to preserve.

The strengthening needs to happen on many fronts, not just laws and borders. The strongest weapons are courage, freedom, unity of will among the people. That's what these secret, neo-nazi types are selling, but it is a counterfeit, a poison that will kill the resistance.

I understand the language and also why it would appeal to certain people...most certainly white Eruo-ists...here it would be a constitutional dead end I think

164 Noam Sayin'  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:12:26pm

re: #110 Killian Bundy

Legalizing Marijuana Tops Obama Online Poll

/gee, that explains a lot about Obama voters, why am I not surprised?

Time to buy Doritos stock.

165 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:13:47pm

re: #159 CapeCoddah

Sorry, we can agree to disagree. Obama is against the population arming itself, but for the legalization of drugs. Nice combo. Goddamned dangerous, and irresopnsible on OUR parts to let that become reality.

lots of drugs are legal...pot should be included...youre generalizing

166 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:14:01pm

When all the Muslims move out of Algeria, can I have it? :D

167 pingjockey  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:14:48pm

re: #155 ploome hineni
IMHO I think it's a stealth invasion.
OT some goddamn idiot on O'Reilly talking about because we used waterboarding our troops are in more danger. BS, terrorists don't subscribe to the Geneva Convention. Goddamn idiots.

168 Pastorius  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:14:55pm

Filip DeWinter was once a racist.

So, what changed him? Where's his conversion story?

For a racist to become a non-racist requires a complete change of world view. There must have been some sort of paradigm shifting experience he had to get him to change like that.

He owes it to us to tell us what that is, if he wants us to believe him.

Those who believe him without any explanation on his part are fools.

169 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:15:40pm

re: #165 albusteve

lots of drugs are legal...pot should be included...youre generalizing

You think he will stop at pot? You are naive.

170 Occasional Reader  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:16:21pm

re: #168 Pastorius

Filip DeWinter was once a racist.

So, what changed him? Where's his conversion story?

It's actually remarkably similar to the story about how Obama stopped using coke.

In other words... HEY LOOK A SQUIRREL!

171 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:16:25pm

re: #155 ploome hineni

do you see the muslims in Europe as being there to assimilate or to dominate Europe

is this uncontrollabe mass migration of muslims into Europe the beginning of a islamic takover or not?

I see that as a goal for Islamist mullahs.

I think most Muslims immigrated to europe to escape repressive governments or to get jobs.

And Europe would have a lot less problem with their Muslim population if they followed the US lead and accepted them as fellow citizens, with the same rights and obligations as the rest of us.

172 pingjockey  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:16:59pm

re: #169 CapeCoddah
Did you see the Dutch are rethinking their asinine drug policy? Apparently Amsterdam is totally out of control.

173 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:17:07pm

re: #141 Boogberg

Islam is not an ethnicity.


Europeans (and ethnic nationalists) have a slightly different view of race than we do. To the race, ethnicity and culture are inseparable.

174 right_on_target  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:17:17pm

re: #147 Salamantis

Members of the BNP sure the hell are. They wanna use disenfranchisement and mass deportation as weapons against a targeted minority class.
...


___
The British used mass deportations before; Le Grand Dérangement in 1755 brought great numbers of Acadians to Louisiana. We now call the area of Louisiana where they settled Acadiana, Cajun Country.

Acadia is now Nova Scotia.

175 pingjockey  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:17:57pm

re: #171 Salamantis
Except a great many don't want to assimilate and want 'special' consideration for their religion.

176 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:18:00pm

re: #161 Salamantis

Religious bigotry is just as reprehensible as is sexism or racism. Reprehensible when it comes from Muslims, and reprehensible when it is directed towards them.

People should be punished for bad actions, not for different thoughts.

How the fuck can you be bigoted against an ideology?

177 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:18:05pm

re: #172 pingjockey

Did you see the Dutch are rethinking their asinine drug policy? Apparently Amsterdam is totally out of control.

Yup, Legalizing drugs is not an option. It is crazy irresponsible.

178 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:18:13pm

re: #168 Pastorius

Filip DeWinter was once a racist.

So, what changed him? Where's his conversion story?

For a racist to become a non-racist requires a complete change of world view. There must have been some sort of paradigm shifting experience he had to get him to change like that.

He owes it to us to tell us what that is, if he wants us to believe him.

Those who believe him without any explanation on his part are fools.

agreed...this just seems important to me...quit the blabola and give it up

179 jcm  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:19:13pm

re: #167 pingjockey

IMHO I think it's a stealth invasion.
OT some goddamn idiot on O'Reilly talking about because we used waterboarding our troops are in more danger. BS, terrorists don't subscribe to the Geneva Convention. Goddamn idiots.

Come on ping, you know that waterboarding one terrorist is far worse than blowing up 3000 office workers and firefighters.

///*spit*

180 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:19:21pm

re: #169 CapeCoddah

You think he will stop at pot? You are naive.

I have no idea...I'm not naive...I guess someone should dare ask him eh?

181 Cathypop  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:19:33pm

re: #170 Occasional Reader

It's actually remarkably similar to the story about how Obama stopped using coke.

In other words... HEY LOOK A SQUIRREL!


That sounds like someone I work with.

182 debutaunt  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:19:49pm

re: #144 Charles

The "spat" with Lionheart?

He called me a race traitor who deserved to be executed like a Nazi collaborator.

That's a "spat" to you?

Martin Short asked Mel Brooks about his 'big beef' with the Nazis.

183 Racer X  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:19:54pm

re: #152 HoosierHoops

You and your wife instilled in your kids values and appropriate behavior. I doubt your kids abuse cigarets or alcohol right? In most cities weed is everywhere but a lot of kids still avoid it.

And I must clarify - I'm for decriminalizing. Legalizing opens up a bigger can of worms.

184 ornery elephant  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:20:10pm

re: #158 Joan

Joan, good points - I was posing a question to Salamantis, a hypothetical as I am not British but American. I'm disgruntled, personally, in the term "nationalist" being linked instantly to the negative - a nationalist does NOT necessarily mean "supremacist." I am an American nationalist - in that I am patriotic to the nth degree to my wonderful country - I don't think i'm better than a Brit, or a German or a Brazilian. My nationalism stems from my pride in this America and yes, that does mean the preservation of it. Islamofascism, in my view, is a threat to my country and I seek it be stopped before we find ourselves in the situation that the Europeans find themselves in. If we sit back, and find ourselves in the current situation of the Europeans, and we let it happen - I'm going to fight to reverse - I guess I'll be called a nasty name at that point, but I don't really care.

185 pingjockey  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:20:26pm

re: #179 jcm
Where the hell is George Patton when ya need him. This namby pamby treatment of terrorists is going to get a whole bunch of people killed.

186 Pastorius  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:21:02pm

Charles,
Lionheart called you a race traitor?

Wow.

Could you provide me with a link? I have some friends I'd like to show that to.

187 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:21:18pm

re: #186 Pastorius

Charles,
Lionheart called you a race traitor?

Wow.

Could you provide me with a link? I have some friends I'd like to show that to.

He deleted the post.

188 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:21:23pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

I wonder why we don't hear much from Ayaan Hirsi Ali anymore. She may be one of the few rational European voices left.

We know her life is in danger; perhaps she feels like she is not getting sufficient security.

189 Cathypop  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:21:26pm

re: #185 pingjockey

Where the hell is George Patton when ya need him. This namby pamby treatment of terrorists is going to get a whole bunch of people killed.

Cannot agree with you more.

190 Occasional Reader  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:21:31pm

re: #144 Charles

He called me a race traitor who deserved to be executed like a Nazi collaborator.

He seems confused. If he buys the "race traitor" concept, wouldn't he be in favor of Nazi collaborators?

191 nyc redneck  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:21:42pm

re: #170 Occasional Reader

It's actually remarkably similar to the story about how Obama stopped using coke.

In other words... HEY LOOK A SQUIRREL!

oh no you almost got huckabee hit by a car.

192 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:22:13pm

re: #144 Charles

The "spat" with Lionheart?

He called me a race traitor who deserved to be executed like a Nazi collaborator.

That's a "spat" to you?

Nothing like good, old-fashioned, rational discussion!

/

193 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:22:29pm

re: #175 pingjockey

Except a great many don't want to assimilate and want 'special' consideration for their religion.

Appeals for special religious considerations should be fought and defeated in court, like the US does with both Muslims and Creationists.

If Muslims wanna live around each other in Dearborn, they should have that choice, but it should be a choice: they shouldn't be warehoused into banlieus like in Paris because no one will rent them housing elsewhere or hire them so they can afford it.

194 right_on_target  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:22:58pm

re: #184 ornery elephant

Joan, good points - I was posing a question to Salamantis, a hypothetical as I am not British but American. I'm disgruntled, personally, in the term "nationalist" being linked instantly to the negative - a nationalist does NOT necessarily mean "supremacist." I am an American nationalist - in that I am patriotic to the nth degree to my wonderful country - I don't think i'm better than a Brit, or a German or a Brazilian. My nationalism stems from my pride in this America and yes, that does mean the preservation of it. Islamofascism, in my view, is a threat to my country and I seek it be stopped before we find ourselves in the situation that the Europeans find themselves in. If we sit back, and find ourselves in the current situation of the Europeans, and we let it happen - I'm going to fight to reverse - I guess I'll be called a nasty name at that point, but I don't really care.


___
American school textbooks used to call westward expansion "Nation Building". Now it's PC to consider it as imperialism.

195 pingjockey  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:23:09pm

re: #193 Salamantis
I will agree with you on that point.

196 wolfie  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:23:10pm

re: #122 ornery elephant

No. That's just the leftist partyline. You can be a patriot, you can want to preserve your own customs and traditions, and you can want immigrants to adapt to your institutions and language. You can actually prefer your country to others. None of that makes you a racist or a fascist.
The problem with many of these European groups is they start identifying everything with bloodlines, with race. It's a spurious connection and a horrible one.

197 Pastorius  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:23:44pm

187 Charles,
Oh, it was on his blog. That explains why I didn't know about it.

198 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:23:47pm

BTW, when Obama introduced the Education Sec'y this morning, Biden called the children "the string that lifts the kite of eductation."

Roll that around for a minute. "The string that lifts the kite."

Pardon me, but the string is what keeps the kite in control, not what does the "lifting." That would be the wind, moron.

But then again, I'm no physicist.

199 pingjockey  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:24:48pm

re: #196 wolfie
I read a description of WWI and WWII calling it the European Civil War Part I and II. Can't remember where.

200 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:24:50pm

re: #176 Boogberg

How the fuck can you be bigoted against an ideology?

You can't. Judging and assessing ideologies is the path to a better world. The modern-day elevation of "non-judgmentalism" is a cancer.

201 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:24:52pm

re: #174 right_on_target

___
The British used mass deportations before; Le Grand Dérangement in 1755 brought great numbers of Acadians to Louisiana. We now call the area of Louisiana where they settled Acadiana, Cajun Country.

Acadia is now Nova Scotia.

And the French spoken by Cajuns has been described as a "bastard" form of French, but it is not - it is an older version of a French dialect, that did not change in the same way as the language changed in France because of the geographical distance.

So there.

202 ornery elephant  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:25:04pm

re: #198 gclaghorn

LOL good one!

203 Cathypop  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:25:05pm

re: #198 gclaghorn

BTW, when Obama introduced the Education Sec'y this morning, Biden called the children "the string that lifts the kite of eductation."

Roll that around for a minute. "The string that lifts the kite."

Pardon me, but the string is what keeps the kite in control, not what does the "lifting." That would be the wind, moron.

But then again, I'm no physicist.


Or just a person with comman sense. DUH!

204 pingjockey  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:25:31pm

re: #198 gclaghorn
The man is a walking cluster fuck!

205 Pastorius  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:25:36pm

Biden is in the beginning stages of Dementia.

206 Occasional Reader  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:25:39pm

re: #198 gclaghorn

BTW, when Obama introduced the Education Sec'y this morning, Biden called the children "the string that lifts the kite of eductation."

He was citing a metaphor that President FDR used in a streaming webcast in 1921.

207 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:25:52pm

re: #183 Racer X

You and your wife instilled in your kids values and appropriate behavior. I doubt your kids abuse cigarets or alcohol right? In most cities weed is everywhere but a lot of kids still avoid it.

And I must clarify - I'm for decriminalizing. Legalizing opens up a bigger can of worms.

I was slightly tramatized when Jordan was returning from Iraq he asked for lots of beer, Pizza ( Good call ) and 1 pack of marlboro cigs..
Mom bought them for him but i never saw him light up...
His buddies smoke like fiends...He is not a smoker..I think it was just pure stress

208 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:26:44pm

re: #206 Occasional Reader

He was citing a metaphor that President FDR used in a streaming webcast in 1921.

I know, I saw it on FDR's blog.

209 Occasional Reader  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:26:47pm

re: #201 reine.de.tout

And the French spoken by Cajuns has been described as a "bastard" form of French, but it is not - it is an older version of a French dialect, that did not change in the same way as the language changed in France because of the geographical distance.

So there.

Really? I didn't know that. A similar case holds for Latin American Spanish vs. Spanish Spanish. And, I've read, Icelandic vs. Danish.

210 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:26:58pm

re: #204 pingjockey

The man is a walking cluster fuck!

he's baaack!...woo hoo...
ugoJoe...
spit

211 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:27:12pm

re: #208 gclaghorn

I know, I saw it on FDR's blog.

Can I download a podcast?

212 jcm  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:27:13pm

re: #196 wolfie

No. That's just the leftist partyline. You can be a patriot, you can want to preserve your own customs and traditions, and you can want immigrants to adapt to your institutions and language. You can actually prefer your country to others. None of that makes you a racist or a fascist.
The problem with many of these European groups is they start identifying everything with bloodlines, with race. It's a spurious connection and a horrible one.

That's at the root of the problem in Europe. Nationalities are identified ethnically, not ideologically. Certain ethnicities can claim to the the "real" identity, when times get tough the "outsider" is not welcome.

We in the United States are uncommon, we have an ideological identity. Subscribe to some basic ideological components, and nothing else matters you are an American.

213 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:27:36pm

re: #176 Boogberg

How the fuck can you be bigoted against an ideology?

Bigotry is when you develop general stereotypes against a race, sex, religion, or sexual orientation, and apply those stereotypes reflexively to any individual member of any of those groups that you happen to meet.

Like thinking that all blacks are thieving or lazy, or that all Muslims wanna kill you if you don't submit. Most blacks bust their asses working, just like most other folks, and would never steal a dime, and most Muslims really don't care what other people believe as long as they can get decent jobs and support their families in peace and freedom.

214 jcm  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:27:44pm

re: #204 pingjockey

The man is a walking cluster fuck!

Can he walk and Charlie Fox at the same time?

215 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:27:47pm

re: #211 CapeCoddah

Can I download a podcast?

I don't have a link. You might have to email FDR and ask him for it.

216 pingjockey  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:28:08pm

OT O'Reilly just had a clip of obambi spinning like a gyroscope on this Blago thing. The dude isn't in the same class as Klintoon when it comes to lying. Billy Jeff would be tough at poker. Obambi would lose his shirt.

217 VegasRick  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:28:16pm

re: #208 gclaghorn

I know, I saw it on FDR's blog.

FDR is a four letter word.
/

218 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:28:21pm

re: #204 pingjockey

The man is a walking cluster fuck!

I guess that Press Secretary he hired is doing a good job so far.

/

219 debutaunt  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:28:31pm

re: #206 Occasional Reader

He was citing a metaphor that President FDR used in a streaming webcast in 1921.

December 7, 1921 - who could possibly forget?

220 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:28:31pm

re: #215 gclaghorn

I don't have a link. You might have to email FDR and ask him for it.

On it...Dont wait up, he may not answer right away. I hear he is a busy man!

221 Irish Rose  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:28:31pm

Great response, Charles.
It surely would be a serious mistake on his part.

I'm willing to give Mr. Wilders the benefit of the doubt on this, until we either hear from him directly... or it becomes clear that he has done his own research and chosen his path.

222 right_on_target  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:28:48pm

re: #201 reine.de.tout

And the French spoken by Cajuns has been described as a "bastard" form of French, but it is not - it is an older version of a French dialect, that did not change in the same way as the language changed in France because of the geographical distance.

So there.


___
Not only that, many Cajuns served in the WWII as French translators. They also worked with the French Resistance as people who the Allies could really trust. That last part was extremely dangerous as they could be shot as spies if caught.

223 wolfie  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:29:09pm

re: #160 solomonpanting

A comeback worthy of the buzzsong! :)

224 pingjockey  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:29:29pm

re: #214 jcm
I'm begining to think Biden is gonna make Spiro Agnew look like a statesman!

225 pingjockey  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:30:18pm

re: #218 gclaghorn
Who the hell have they hired?

226 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:30:58pm

re: #224 pingjockey

I'm begining to think Biden is gonna make Spiro Agnew look like a statesman!

Biden could make scarecrow and cowardly lion look like Reagan and Thatcher.

227 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:31:40pm

re: #226 CapeCoddah

Biden could make scarecrow and cowardly lion look like Reagan and Thatcher.

Then is Hillary the wicked witch?

228 mean Gene  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:32:13pm

Sounds like Vlaams Belang took a page from 0bama's playbook.
Just be quiet for a while, form a few Jewish front groups to say nice things about you and ''poof!'' You're a ''friend of Israel'' and worthy of alliances with purists such as Geert.

229 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:32:27pm

re: #227 gclaghorn

Then is Hillary the wicked witch?

LOL, if only we could be that easily rid of her.

230 jcm  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:32:32pm

re: #224 pingjockey

re: #226 CapeCoddah

Now, now, go easy on the man, I think the planted those plugs a tad too deep, it's not nice to make fun of the mentally disabled.

///

231 rawmuse  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:32:52pm

re: #205 Pastorius

Biden is in the beginning stages of Dementia.

Final stages.

232 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:33:26pm

re: #220 CapeCoddah

On it...Dont wait up, he may not answer right away. I hear he is a busy man!

Late night talk show on MSNBC.

233 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:33:36pm

re: #230 jcm

LOL

234 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:33:44pm

re: #209 Occasional Reader

Really? I didn't know that. A similar case holds for Latin American Spanish vs. Spanish Spanish. And, I've read, Icelandic vs. Danish.

Yes, it would have to be similar situations.
Less of a problem these days, because communications between distant places is so easy and immediate.

But back when there was a geographic separation and no way to communicate easily, quickly, languages simply adapted to the circumstances of the speakers, and changed in different ways.

I'll shut up now. Nobody's interested in this but me.

235 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:33:47pm

re: #230 jcm

re: #226 CapeCoddah

Now, now, go easy on the man, I think the planted those plugs a tad too deep, it's not nice to make fun of the mentally disabled.

///

gawd...runaway hair plugs worming their way down through his brain

236 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:33:53pm

re: #226 CapeCoddah

Biden could make scarecrow and cowardly lion look like Reagan and Thatcher.

You have to admit.. It's tough when you are a Dem and have to find someone, anyone not embroiled in a Scandal.
Thin pickings were thin in the Chicago area

237 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:34:26pm

re: #232 Walter L. Newton

Late night talk show on MSNBC.

Ah, thats why no one has heard from him in a dogs age!

238 Occasional Reader  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:35:14pm

re: #234 reine.de.tout

I'll shut up now. Nobody's interested in this but me.

Hey, I replied, didn't I?

I'm interested.

So, presumably the court music of Louis XIV revolved around "Jolie Blonde"?

/

239 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:35:37pm

This "guilt by association" thing can be taken too far. Chamberlain shook hands with Hitler, true, but once Hitler's perfidy was apparent he worked like a devil possessed of devils to make amends. It's very easy for us in the U. S. to chastise those in Europe having to deal with their cultural melt-down when all we have to deal with are the odd "honor killings" and arrogant Somali cab drivers.

Geert Wilders has shown very good judgement and a tremendous amount of courage in his defense of his culture. I will not second guess him at this time and at this distance.

There is one thing that is very clear to me. Before this is over (if it ever is) no one, with the possible exception of the innocent dead, are going to have clean hands. There will be bad craziness and smelly alliances.

I hate it, but, as Lenny Bruce said: "Truth is what is. Everything else is a dirty lie."

240 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:35:38pm

re: #235 albusteve

gawd...runaway hair plugs worming their way down through his brain

Short trip.

241 Racer X  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:35:43pm

Great. Just great. They are throwing all kinds of stuff at Bush now.

242 solomonpanting  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:36:22pm

re: #223 wolfie

A comeback worthy of the buzzsong! :)

Why, thank you.
But, I must admit, as Biden would say:
"Buzz set the table. I merely took out the garbage."

243 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:36:35pm

re: #234 reine.de.tout

Yes, it would have to be similar situations.
Less of a problem these days, because communications between distant places is so easy and immediate.

But back when there was a geographic separation and no way to communicate easily, quickly, languages simply adapted to the circumstances of the speakers, and changed in different ways.

I'll shut up now. Nobody's interested in this but me.

not true...I'm lurking and enjoying this very much...NM has it's own distinct Spanish patois...

244 Outrider  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:37:42pm

re: #172 pingjockey

Did you see the Dutch are rethinking their asinine drug policy? Apparently Amsterdam is totally out of control.

And has apparently not fixed the problems the "non-enforcement" was supposed to have fixed.

But hey! At least now they don't have people getting criminal records for something that was once illegal.
/

245 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:37:49pm

re: #240 CapeCoddah

Short trip.

HA!...probably alot of 180s in there

246 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:37:59pm

re: #238 Occasional Reader

Hey, I replied, didn't I?

I'm interested.

So, presumably the court music of Louis XIV revolved around "Jolie Blonde"?

/

Yes, you replied, sorry -- I didn't intend to sound so grumpy!
Dewey Balfa, Rockin Dopsie & Nathan Abshire - Jolie Blon

247 DEZes  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:38:11pm

re: #227 gclaghorn

Then is Hillary the wicked witch?

I tend to think so.
Image: ?action=view&current=heheheh.jpg

248 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:38:34pm

re: #213 Salamantis

Bigotry is when you develop general stereotypes against a race, sex, religion, or sexual orientation, and apply those stereotypes reflexively to any individual member of any of those groups that you happen to meet.

Ok. What if you think ALL religious people are delusional? Does that make you a bigot?

249 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:38:34pm

Look! Global Warming carols!

The Twelve Days of Global Warming

Not as catchy, but just as classic.

Merry Global Warming Season, everyone!

250 Outrider  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:38:39pm

re: #180 albusteve

I have no idea...I'm not naive...I guess someone should dare ask him eh?

sounds like a whole bunch just did. ;-)>

251 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:39:14pm

re: #244 Outrider

And has apparently not fixed the problems the "non-enforcement" was supposed to have fixed.

But hey! At least now they don't have people getting criminal records for something that was once illegal.
/

I dunno...heroin junkies croaking in the parks is unseemly to me for some reason

252 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:39:19pm

re: #245 albusteve

HA!...probably alot of 180s in there

I would take that bet.

253 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:39:34pm

re: #239 USBeast

...
I hate it, but, as Lenny Bruce said: "Truth is what is. Everything else is a dirty lie."

What. Then in that case, the truth is out there, and it's not hiding on some episode of The "X" Files and Geert Wilders has shown very good judgement UP TO THIS POINT.

Geeessshhh.

254 J.S.  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:40:23pm

re: #201 reine.de.tout

yes, indeedy, and speaking of a bastardization of the French language, there's Quebecois "joual" -- gasp! (ever hear that spoken?)

255 Racer X  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:40:49pm

re: #249 gclaghorn

Look! Global Warming carols!

The Twelve Days of Global Warming

Not as catchy, but just as classic.

Merry Global Warming Season, everyone!

Bwahahahahahaha!

A new classic!

256 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:41:06pm

re: #248 Boogberg

Ok. What if you think ALL religious people are delusional? Does that make you a bigot?

Yep. Genesis Literalism is delusional, but it is bigoted to think that all Christians embrace it.

257 rawmuse  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:41:14pm

Goodnight, peeps. Good work as always, Charles.

258 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:41:32pm

re: #253 Walter L. Newton

What. Then in that case, the truth is out there, and it's not hiding on some episode of The "X" Files and Geert Wilders has shown very good judgement UP TO THIS POINT.

Geeessshhh.

What? I mean...what?!...

259 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:41:44pm

re: #250 Outrider

sounds like a whole bunch just did. ;-)>

who knows what that goofball is gonna do...I doubt it includes offering me a pack of P Reds too soon tho...

260 nyc redneck  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:43:19pm

re: #234 reine.de.tout

Yes, it would have to be similar situations.
Less of a problem these days, because communications between distant places is so easy and immediate.

But back when there was a geographic separation and no way to communicate easily, quickly, languages simply adapted to the circumstances of the speakers, and changed in different ways.

I'll shut up now. Nobody's interested in this but me.

i love it. i'm fascinated by language and dialects. i read something in nat. geo.
abt. dialects actually becoming MORE pronounced now, rather than blending and softening because of mass communication. it seems to be a conscious effort people are making to hold on to their regional identity. kind of a pride thing. not losing their accent. i was surprised by the finding. i thought we would all end up sounding alike. tho i must say i have not tried to lose my hilly billy twang in the many yrs, i have been here.

261 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:43:23pm

re: #239 USBeast

Speak for yourself, not everyone.

262 right_on_target  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:43:57pm

re: #234 reine.de.tout

Yes, it would have to be similar situations.
Less of a problem these days, because communications between distant places is so easy and immediate.

But back when there was a geographic separation and no way to communicate easily, quickly, languages simply adapted to the circumstances of the speakers, and changed in different ways.

I'll shut up now. Nobody's interested in this but me.


___
There are many different "Cajun" dialects. Sad thing is that the current generation Cajuns are losing the ability to speak it or understand it. For many years it was AGAINST THE LAW to speak French in primary schools.
CODOFIL [Council of Development of French in Louisiana] has changed that
but it's too late. Many of my friends speak French. Some of their parents and Grandparents ONLY speak French.
With all this French speaking in Louisiana you will not get a more PATRIOTIC American than a Cajun.

263 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:44:30pm

re: #239 USBeast

This "guilt by association" thing can be taken too far.

I don't think that's what this is. More of a "foolish and non-productive alliance" thing.

There is one thing that is very clear to me. Before this is over (if it ever is) no one, with the possible exception of the innocent dead, are going to have clean hands. There will be bad craziness and smelly alliances.

A prediction of messiness should not be used as justification for rolling in the mud with pigs. (Not saying you advocate that, but some do.)

264 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:44:50pm

re: #254 J.S.

yes, indeedy, and speaking of a bastardization of the French language, there's Quebecois "joual" -- gasp! (ever hear that spoken?)

No, I haven't heard it spoken.
One of my college teachers had a funny story, though. He was Cajun, visited Canada.
Much ado was made by the Canadians of his "anglicized" phrase, "laisser les bon temps rouler".
According to my teacher, the French Canadian phrase: "avoir fun".
LOL.

265 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:44:54pm

re: #258 USBeast

What? I mean...what?!...

Maybe I misunderstood your comment. It sounded like you were supporting Geert in joining forces with VB no matter what, based on his judgement. I may have been wrong.

266 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:45:20pm

re: #261 Thanos

Speak for yourself, not everyone.

I always speak for myself. I never pretend to speak for anyone else.

267 mean Gene  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:45:53pm

Charles, if Geert replies I hope he gets a fresh thread instead of an update...unless he replies soon.
What's the time where he is?

268 monkeytime  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:46:00pm

re: #248 Boogberg

Ok. What if you think ALL religious people are delusional? Does that make you a bigot?

Not really as long as you do no harm and wish them no ill. It's when one's arrogance takes over reason in their own "righteousnes" (in color, creed, gender, belief or non) that one begins to belittle and eventually harbor ill will towards someone or a group of people for no other reason then they are different in color, gender, belief or whatever. It all boils down to arrogance.

269 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:46:21pm

re: #260 nyc redneck

i love it. i'm fascinated by language and dialects. i read something in nat. geo.
abt. dialects actually becoming MORE pronounced now, rather than blending and softening because of mass communication. it seems to be a conscious effort people are making to hold on to their regional identity. kind of a pride thing. not losing their accent. i was surprised by the finding. i thought we would all end up sounding alike. tho i must say i have not tried to lose my hilly billy twang in the many yrs, i have been here.

I really hope this is true and I feel just like you...I have a keen ear for accents and hope it's not just S Carolina belles that outwardly preserve their accent

270 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:46:47pm

Pastorius, if you are still out there I'd like your assessment of the group that Cagney linked earlier in the thread, UBA.

They seem allied to a US group, UAC, but they are also 1-3 clicks away from several questionable sites, their youth channel got shut down on Youtube, and they black out faces of their gatherings. If you know about them educate us a little.

271 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:47:25pm

re: #262 right_on_target

___
There are many different "Cajun" dialects. Sad thing is that the current generation Cajuns are losing the ability to speak it or understand it. For many years it was AGAINST THE LAW to speak French in primary schools.
CODOFIL [Council of Development of French in Louisiana] has changed that
but it's too late. Many of my friends speak French. Some of their parents and Grandparents ONLY speak French.
With all this French speaking in Louisiana you will not get a more PATRIOTIC American than a Cajun.


Oui, c'est vrai.

CODOFIL does a good job.
LSU should be "leading the charge", so to speak, in studying and preserving Cajun French, but alas, I don't think they are interested.

272 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:47:58pm

re: #263 wrenchwench

A prediction of messiness should not be used as justification for rolling in the mud with pigs. (Not saying you advocate that, but some do.)

My prediction of dirty hands all around was just that, a prediction. If there is any way to avoid it, I would be overjoyed.

273 pingjockey  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:48:15pm

BBL. Y'all fight nice!

274 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:48:32pm

re: #260 nyc redneck

i love it. i'm fascinated by language and dialects. i read something in nat. geo.
abt. dialects actually becoming MORE pronounced now,
rather than blending and softening because of mass communication. it seems to be a conscious effort people are making to hold on to their regional identity. kind of a pride thing. not losing their accent. i was surprised by the finding. i thought we would all end up sounding alike. tho i must say i have not tried to lose my hilly billy twang in the many yrs, i have been here.


I hope that's true. It would be a shame if in 20 years we all sounded like the TV news announcers.

275 Steffan  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:48:36pm

On a similar subject, James Taranto mentioned this interesting item:

Adolf Hitler Campbell -- it's indeed the name on his birth certificate -- turns 3 today, and the Campbell family believes the boy has been mistreated. A local supermarket refused to make a birthday cake with "Adolf Hitler" on it.

The ShopRite in Greenwich Township has also refused to make a cake bearing the name of Campbell's daughter, JoyceLynn Aryan Nation Campbell, who turns 2 in February.

Honszlynn Hinler Jeannie Campbell, a girl named for Schutzstaffel head Heinrich Himmler, turns 1 in April.

"ShopRite can't even make a cake for a 3-year-old," said Deborah Campbell, 25, who is Heath's wife of three years and the mother of the children. "That's sad."

A director for the Anti-Defamation League in Philadelphia applauded the supermarket's decision. An Allentown psychologist said the names would cause problems for the children later in life.

This is the lamest excuse I've ever read:

The Campbell home is kept neat aside from scattered toys and other evidence three children live there. It's small, but it's what the Campbells can afford.

Disabilities, the couple says, have left both out of work: Heath Campbell can't landscape or pump gas because he has emphysema, and Deborah can't waitress because she has a bad back. They live on Social Security payments.

In the foyer, Heath Campbell, who said he has German ancestry and a relative who fought for the SS, took off boots he said were worn by a Nazi solider named Daniel.

He laid them next to a skull with a swastika on its forehead, the first of dozens of swastikas seen by the Campbells' rare guests.

There are swastikas on walls, on jackets, on the freezer and on a pillow. The family car had swastikas, Heath Campbell said, until New Jersey's Department of Children and Families told him they could endanger the children.

The swastikas, Heath Campbell said, are symbols of peace and balance. He considers them art.

"It doesn't mean hatred to me," he said. Deborah Campbell said a swastika "doesn't really have a meaning. It's just a symbol."

Now, there are dumbfucks and there are super dumbfucks. This family takes the dumbfuck cake.

276 ggt  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:48:51pm
277 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:49:35pm

re: #266 USBeast

There is one thing that is very clear to me. Before this is over (if it ever is) no one, with the possible exception of the innocent dead, are going to have clean hands. There will be bad craziness and smelly alliances.


but you are guaranteeing us that no one will have clean hands before this is over? What "this" do you speak of?

278 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:49:49pm

re: #265 Walter L. Newton

Maybe I misunderstood your comment. It sounded like you were supporting Geert in joining forces with VB no matter what, based on his judgement. I may have been wrong.

You were indeed. At this juncture Wilders may be making a mistake. My point is that no one on this side of the pond and not in his shoes is in a position to throw stones at him.

279 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:49:57pm

re: #275 Steffan

On a similar subject, James Taranto mentioned this interesting item:

Now, there are dumbfucks and there are super dumbfucks. This family takes the dumbfuck cake.

The full, original article:

[Link: www.lehighvalleylive.com...]

280 Frank_Mtl  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:50:00pm

OT - I sincerely do not understand the avalanche of down dings on a spinoff link I posted reporting that a saudi oil tick offers 10M$ for the infamous shoe and thus illustrating the depth of his hatred and contempt for America.

281 HoosierHoops  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:50:02pm

re: #276 ggt

awww

That is a beautiful pic

282 Racer X  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:50:58pm

re: #275 Steffan

On a similar subject, James Taranto mentioned this interesting item:

Now, there are dumbfucks and there are super dumbfucks. This family takes the dumbfuck cake.

They are on welfare.

283 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:51:06pm

re: #256 Salamantis

Yep. Genesis Literalism is delusional, but it is bigoted to think that all Christians embrace it.

There isn't one shred of evidence indicating the existence of God, either. Christians are big on the God thing.

284 ggt  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:51:08pm

re: #275 Steffan

WTF -- what is wrong with these people?

285 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:51:19pm

re: #277 Thanos

but you are guaranteeing us that no one will have clean hands before this is over? What "this" do you speak of?

Uh, the war between the West and Islam...

286 jaunte  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:51:26pm

re: #280 Frank_Mtl

I think the down-dings are for the saudi oil tick and not for you.

287 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:51:57pm

Rremember Obama's speechwriter photographed groping a cardboard cutout of the Hildabeast? Well, he is up for the Boston Globes "Bostonian of the Year" award. Cripes, only in Massachusetts.
[Link: www.bostonherald.com...]

288 Frank_Mtl  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:52:04pm

re: #286 jaunte

Thank you, it makes me feel better. :)

289 monkeytime  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:52:20pm

re: #276 ggt

awww

Guaranteed to make you say "awww". :>)

290 wolfie  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:52:32pm

re: #212 jcm

We in the United States are uncommon, we have an ideological identity. Subscribe to some basic ideological components, and nothing else matters you are an American.

Yes, and this is a good thing. Yet I don't think it's quite so simple.
Do we all agree on this "ideology" today?
Do Ginsberg and Scalia agree?
Wouldn't treason against an ideologically incorrect president (see BDS) be patriotism?
Is there such a thing as American culture?
Is our only heritage that of a few political documents?
Should English be our official language?
Should we teach Shakespeare in schools?
Are we still an outpost of Western Civilization, as we used think?
Was Frederick Douglass crazy when he said that he was glad to have been born in America, even if he was born a slave, because he became an heir to the whole cultural tradition of Greece, Rome, and Europe?

I can think of a lot of questions along these lines, none of which are any easier to answer.

291 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:52:38pm
"It doesn't mean hatred to me," he said. Deborah Campbell said a swastika "doesn't really have a meaning. It's just a symbol."

Yeah, okay. Next time someone flips you the bird tell me how you feel. After all, it's just a symbol. It doesn't have any meaning.

292 ggt  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:52:45pm

re: #282 Racer X

They are on welfare.

and products of public education?

293 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:52:49pm

re: #278 USBeast

Bull. I'll criticize the Euro hysteria all I want to. Israel has rockets falling daily, our troops are in direct confrontation with the true jihadis daily, and they are screaming like little school girls over scarves and mosques.

294 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:52:49pm

re: #278 USBeast

You were indeed. At this juncture Wilders may be making a mistake. My point is that no one on this side of the pond and not in his shoes is in a position to throw stones at him.

Then I guess the US should just stay out of any affairs of the world? Then I guess we have no idea about anything, if it happens beyond our shores?

Bullshit.

You sir, are trying to use the above statement to cover up something much more deep in your proposition.

I wonder what that is? Any guesses?

295 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:53:14pm

re: #283 Boogberg

There isn't one shred of evidence indicating the existence of God, either. Christians are big on the God thing.

Yeah, but there isn't a shred of evidence against it, either, whereas there is masses of empirical evidence that the universe, the earth, and all of its species were not created independently and as is in the span of six days a few thousand years ago.

296 monkeytime  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:53:48pm

re: #286 jaunte

I think the down-dings are for the saudi oil tick and not for you.


Uh oh...shot the messenger.

297 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:53:53pm

re: #285 USBeast

Uh, the war between the West and Islam...

WARNING WILL ROBINSON... WARNING... WARNING...

Meltdown ahead!

298 gop_patriot  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:54:36pm

re: #276 ggt

awww

Memphis Zoo! :D I saw the older baby recently, this one was born (I believe) just after my last trip over. Adorable.

299 Racer X  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:54:43pm

re: #292 ggt

and products of public education?

Well, lots of us are products of public education. These people are just too stupid for their own good.

300 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:55:38pm

re: #285 USBeast

Uh, the war between the West and Islam...

Sorry, I'm not down for the clash of civilizations meme. I'm for killing the terrorists and their leaders, and keeping the US free.

301 ggt  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:55:45pm

re: #212 jcm

We in the United States are uncommon, we have an ideological identity. Subscribe to some basic ideological components, and nothing else matters you are an American"

We all share the blood that has been spilled.

302 Aye Pod  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:55:52pm

re: #283 Boogberg

There isn't one shred of evidence indicating the existence of God, either. Christians are big on the God thing.

I agree, but being incorrect and being delusional are different things.

303 jwb7605  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:56:09pm

Bill O'Reilly just played a whole bunch of Bob Hope USO tour clips.
One of them was on the USS Hancock, 1968.
Never thought I'd see that again.
The clip showed Rosie Grier, but I remember most seeing Ann Margret (sp?) and being dismayed that she looked every bit of 30. Too old for me then.

304 nyc redneck  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:56:32pm

re: #269 albusteve

I really hope this is true and I feel just like you...I have a keen ear for accents and hope it's not just S Carolina belles that outwardly preserve their accent


i was talking w/ my daughter abt. this and she mentioned a friend she has in queens, n.y. who said he was surprised when he caught himself talking in a real heavy queens accent when he was in L.A. it's like that. not wanting to lose your identity. how you speak is part of who you are.

305 gop_patriot  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:56:38pm

re: #288 Frank_Mtl

Thank you, it makes me feel better. :)

Sometimes it's hard to decide- do I ding up for the person sharing it, or down because the content is so awful? :) I've had that dilemma before...

/haven't checked the spinoffs today, thanks for reminding me.

306 Nevergiveup  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:57:05pm

But it's the $4 billion in new fees and taxes that are sure to aggravate everyday New Yorkers, who would be paying more for a host of services:
An "iPod tax" that charges state and local sales tax for "digitally delivered entertainment services" - in other words, that new Beyonce song you download.
State sales tax at movie theaters, sporting events, taxis, buses, limousines and cable and satellite TV and radio.
Costlier driving with the repeal of the 8-cents-per-gallon sales tax cap on motor and diesel motor fuel, plus and increase in the auto rental tax.
Tuition increases at SUNY and CUNY, $620 and $600 a year respectively.
A 50 cent tax on cigars. The current tax is equal to 37% of the wholesale price, or 34 cents a cigar.
No more sales tax break on clothes and shoes worth $110 or less, except during two weeks a year.
Higher taxes on wine, beer and flavored malt beverages. He would also impose an 18% tax on non-nutritional drinks like soda.
The rich would pay more for luxury items through an additional 5% tax imposed on cars costing more than $60,000, aircraft costing more than $500,000, yachts costing at least $200,000 and jewelry and furs costing in excess of $20,000.
In addition, a host of a fees, including those related to motor vehicle licensing and registration, parks and auto insurance, would go up, as would various state-imposed fines.

[Link: www.nydailynews.com...]

First time in a long time I am glad I live in NJ!

307 Joan  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:57:16pm

re: #280 Frank_Mtl

OT - I sincerely do not understand the avalanche of down dings on a spinoff link I posted reporting that a saudi oil tick offers 10M$ for the infamous shoe and thus illustrating the depth of his hatred and contempt for America.

Frank, I read the link and found it interesting. I disliked the news but did not kill the messenger. Do those down-dings subtract from your Karma points? I hope not!

308 ggt  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:57:19pm

re: #299 Racer X

I don' t know Racer, I think Public Education has degraded quite a bit since you and I were walking the halls.

309 Joan  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:57:49pm

re: #305 gop_patriot

Sometimes it's hard to decide- do I ding up for the person sharing it, or down because the content is so awful? :) I've had that dilemma before...

/haven't checked the spinoffs today, thanks for reminding me.

My solution is to comment. Heh. yes, likes to comment precious

310 DEZes  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:58:36pm

re: #275 Steffan
Super dumbfucks indeed, and her bad back and his emphysema sure dont keep them from making babies, just from earning an honest living.
They are not only stupid they are smug about it.
"SPIT, SPIT, SPIT"

311 Frank_Mtl  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:58:56pm

re: #305 gop_patriot

I get your point, and I sure have no hard feelings at all toward the down dingers.

312 ggt  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:59:26pm

re: #311 Frank_Mtl

what post is it? can a bunch of us up-ding to balance your karma?

313 right_on_target  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 5:59:34pm

But once in a while one may hear of a "CAJUN" who doesn't seem to be too patriotic. Like here. This guy is an anomaly.

This is the FIRST time I've even heard of this party.

314 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:00:01pm

re: #268 monkeytime

Not really as long as you do no harm and wish them no ill. It's when one's arrogance takes over reason in their own "righteousnes" (in color, creed, gender, belief or non) that one begins to belittle and eventually harbor ill will towards someone or a group of people for no other reason then they are different in color, gender, belief or whatever. It all boils down to arrogance.

What do we do with the Commies then? :D

Sorry. :)

315 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:00:34pm

re: #304 nyc redneck

i was talking w/ my daughter abt. this and she mentioned a friend she has in queens, n.y. who said he was surprised when he caught himself talking in a real heavy queens accent when he was in L.A. it's like that. not wanting to lose your identity. how you speak is part of who you are.

I have a good buddy from north Philly...an Italian Jew...it's just a riot to hear his accent dripping with you's and da's ect...he's the real deal...he takes me around the city and all his pals are the very same way...I love it

316 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:00:37pm

re: #275 Steffan

Sorry, but that seems to be child abuse to me. Sick bastards.

317 J.S.  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:00:51pm

re: #264 reine.de.tout

There are quite a few words unique to Quebec French...(joual is a kind of "working class" spoken French in Quebec -- and the first time you hear it (assuming you've been educated only in academic, Paris-style, "proper" French, hearing joual spoken, is pretty much jaw-dropping...at least for the "snobs"...and its reputation, for French speakers, is lower, I'd say, than even a pronounced Southern drawl is for English...)

318 jcm  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:00:51pm

re: #290 wolfie

Yes, and this is a good thing. Yet I don't think it's quite so simple.
Do we all agree on this "ideology" today?
Do Ginsberg and Scalia agree?
Wouldn't treason against an ideologically incorrect president (see BDS) be patriotism?
Is there such a thing as American culture?
Is our only heritage that of a few political documents?
Should English be our official language?
Should we teach Shakespeare in schools?
Are we still an outpost of Western Civilization, as we used think?
Was Frederick Douglass crazy when he said that he was glad to have been born in America, even if he was born a slave, because he became an heir to the whole cultural tradition of Greece, Rome, and Europe?

I can think of a lot of questions along these lines, none of which are any easier to answer.

In a large context. We have divisions, but our national identity is ideological.

Describe an a American! What ethnicity? What skin color? What religion? What culture? etc...
We have a few ideas in common, and the gap between most Americans is minute on a global scale.

It's not just our documents. It's the culmination of the enlightenment.

You our correct, our heritage, our birthright, those things which binds us are being purposely hidden in education to change the meaning of our ideas.

That's our fight as classical liberal, (conservative / libertarian) is to preserve everything so diligently bought and paid for to make us what we are.

319 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:00:56pm

re: #314 Boogberg

We sometimes elect them, Tom Hayden comes to mind.

320 DEZes  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:01:15pm

re: #316 CapeCoddah

Agreed!

321 Nevergiveup  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:01:56pm

re: #315 albusteve

I have a good buddy from north Philly...an Italian Jew...it's just a riot to hear his accent dripping with you's and da's ect...he's the real deal...he takes me around the city and all his pals are the very same way...I love it

They know your a Cowboy fan in Philly and your still walking around?

322 Frank_Mtl  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:02:03pm

re: #312 ggt

I appreciate. It was just that among the lizards who down dinged are some my favourites:)

323 Aye Pod  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:03:03pm

re: #291 gclaghorn

re : "It doesn't mean hatred to me," he said. Deborah Campbell said a swastika "doesn't really have a meaning. It's just a symbol."

Yeah, okay. Next time someone flips you the bird tell me how you feel. After all, it's just a symbol. It doesn't have any meaning.

Yep. The whole point of symbols is meaning. And it's hard to find one more heavily laden with meaning than the swastika. What a moron!

324 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:03:26pm

re: #293 Thanos

Bull. I'll criticize the Euro hysteria all I want to. Israel has rockets falling daily, our troops are in direct confrontation with the true jihadis daily, and they are screaming like little school girls over scarves and mosques.

Bull back at you. They are also rather upset over riots, rapes, bombings and bombastic pronouncements by Islamic clergy. Do you support the fatwas against Danish cartoonists? Geert Wilders has 24/7 security guards. Is this "hysteria"?

325 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:06:05pm

I still think Filip Dewinter is a strong candidate for idiotarian of the year.

326 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:06:40pm

re: #322 Frank_Mtl

I appreciate. It was just that among the lizards who down dinged are some my favourites:)

I can't switch my rating, but I would if I could. I downdinged it because I was disgusted with the Saudi. It had nothing to do with you, personally, and link ratings don't effect your karma.

327 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:06:45pm

re: #324 USBeast

Bull back at you. They are also rather upset over riots, rapes, bombings and bombastic pronouncements by Islamic clergy. Do you support the fatwas against Danish cartoonists? Geert Wilders has 24/7 security guards. Is this "hysteria"?

Well, if Geert continues in the direction he is going, he's may only need those SS to protect him.

328 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:07:04pm

re: #321 Nevergiveup

They know your a Cowboy fan in Philly and your still walking around?

oh boy I cant believe you asked!...they do indeed but they're protection costs me bigtime hahaha...absolute no caps tho!...they make this big deal out of it then immediately go "hey Vinny! come look at dis Cowboy fan!"...then tell me "dont say nuthin"...hysterical...they love me tho

329 ggt  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:07:14pm
330 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:08:17pm

re: #295 Salamantis

Yeah, but there isn't a shred of evidence against it, either, whereas there is masses of empirical evidence that the universe, the earth, and all of its species were not created independently and as is in the span of six days a few thousand years ago.

Wrong. It's the lack of evidence for the existence of God which makes religion one giant FAIL. But there is plenty of evidence the Earth is much older that 6K years old.

331 Frank_Mtl  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:08:18pm

re: #326 gclaghorn

Thank you very much.

332 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:08:52pm
333 DEZes  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:09:15pm

"Deborah Campbell said a swastika "doesn't really have a meaning. It's just a symbol."

OK you stupid lazy nazi scum bucket, the next time you see a skull and crossbones on a bottle, drink up, after all its just a symbol, In fact its art.

334 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:10:19pm

re: #324 USBeast

Bull back at you. They are also rather upset over riots, rapes, bombings and bombastic pronouncements by Islamic clergy. Do you support the fatwas against Danish cartoonists? Geert Wilders has 24/7 security guards. Is this "hysteria"?

You missed the point, as I knew you would. What the hell are they doing that's effective ? That's a big zero.

They are like bulls focused on the cape and not the matador's sword. It's like VB's criticism of Leterme -- who's just produced a real interuption of a real jihadi terror plot in Belgium. Meanwhile the VBer's march about making a lot of noise while holding "nee moskee" signs. They are not just racist, they are idiots and boobs. Meanwhile Fjordman and co. spent a few years dissing the war in Iraq every chance they could sneak it in, and during that war literally thousands of jihadis were killed. I like to focus on essentials. And ya, the VB anti-islamization schtick is hysteria.

335 Occasional Reader  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:10:34pm

re: #295 Salamantis

Yeah, but there isn't a shred of evidence against it, either

Depends on how you define "God", of course.

336 Outrider  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:11:37pm

re: #323 Jimmah

re : "It doesn't mean hatred to me," he said. Deborah Campbell said a swastika "doesn't really have a meaning. It's just a symbol."

Yep. The whole point of symbols is meaning. And it's hard to find one more heavily laden with meaning than the swastika. What a moron!

if the symbol has no meaning then why spread it all over the house and put it on everything you own?

337 albusteve  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:13:15pm

re: #334 Thanos

You missed the point, as I knew you would. What the hell are they doing that's effective ? That's a big zero.

They are like bulls focused on the cape and not the matador's sword. It's like VB's criticism of Leterme -- who's just produced a real interuption of a real jihadi terror plot in Belgium. Meanwhile the VBer's march about making a lot of noise while holding "nee moskee" signs. They are not just racist, they are idiots and boobs. Meanwhile Fjordman and co. spent a few years dissing the war in Iraq every chance they could sneak it in, and during that war literally thousands of jihadis were killed. I like to focus on essentials. And ya, the VB anti-islamization schtick is hysteria.

this is exacly what I'm waiting to hear...what is the upside to this movement besides radical thought?

338 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:13:27pm

re: #318 jcm

You get it.

339 CapeCoddah  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:13:45pm

re: #323 Jimmah

re : "It doesn't mean hatred to me," he said. Deborah Campbell said a swastika "doesn't really have a meaning. It's just a symbol."

Yep. The whole point of symbols is meaning. And it's hard to find one more heavily laden with meaning than the swastika. What a moron!

RRRrrr, that burns me. I would have loved her to meet an elderly neighbor of mine when I was a kid. I used to mow her lawn for milk and cookies. She was a Polish Jew, who married an American soldier after WWII, I remember watching her standing at her sink, washing dishes one day, and seeing the number, tattooed on the inside of her left forearm. I was about 10, she saw that I had seen it and I asked me if I knew what it was. I asked if the Nazis did that and She said yes, they did. She would not say anymore, I suspect she thought I was too young. I loved her, and I still miss her, and I still find myself thinking about her and that damned tattoo. I cannot bear to think of what that kind, wonderful lady went through, and that kind of ignorance makes me want to, at the very least, shake the hell out of Mrs. Campbell. That is being polite.

340 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:14:06pm

re: #294 Walter L. Newton

Then I guess the US should just stay out of any affairs of the world? Then I guess we have no idea about anything, if it happens beyond our shores?

Bullshit.

You sir, are trying to use the above statement to cover up something much more deep in your proposition.

I wonder what that is? Any guesses?

Walt, I ain't that deep. I believe in Liberty. I define Liberty as the fundamental, inborn right of human beings to go to Heaven or to Hell in their own hand basket without interference. Islam is diametrically opposed to my definition of Liberty. Therefore I oppose it and will, with reservations, support any cause or force that will work to defeat it. I am too old to believe that this fight will not be ugly.

341 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:14:49pm

re: #332 Iron Fist

It isn't just up to you. The Mohammedans will have as much, or more, influence on whether this is a clash of a "small minority" of Mohammedans or a clash of civilizations (or, really, a clash of civilization against barbarism). Right now it appears that a good sized chunk of the Mohammedans are banking on the latter.

And they are doing their part to make sure that they win.

Are there any Mohammedan "charities" that aren't front groups for laundering money for the terrorists?

Well more of them will choose to make it a clash of civilizations as long as some of the west characterizes it that way. A lot of them might end up that way if we keep pimping Ayman Al Zawahiri's lines for him as well. There are moderates who are not involved, and the Eurofascist eagerness to make this about "all muslims" doesn't help the cause. Keep in mind we still have two wars to win under questionable leadership -- their hysteria isn't helping.

342 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:14:50pm

re: #330 Boogberg

Wrong. It's the lack of evidence for the existence of God which makes religion one giant FAIL. But there is plenty of evidence the Earth is much older that 6K years old.

People can legitimately believe in that for which there is no supporting evidence, as long as there is also no contradictory evidence, without such beliefs being considered delusional.

If there is credible empirical evidence FOR a contention, it isn't an exercise in belief to accept it, but an exercise of knowledge. If there is credible empirical evidence AGAINST an assertion, then it is untruth, and it is delusional to nevertheless embrace an empirically demonstrated untruth in the face of such contradictory empirical evidence.

343 DEZes  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:15:35pm

re: #336 Outrider

if the symbol has no meaning then why spread it all over the house and put it on everything you own?

She was trying to act like it was just pictures of cute little kittens.

344 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:16:49pm

re: #340 USBeast

Islam is diametrically opposed to my definition of Liberty. Therefore I oppose it and will, with reservations, support any cause or force that will work to defeat it. I am too old to believe that this fight will not be ugly.


Have fun at your Nazi party.

345 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:17:26pm

re: #302 Jimmah

I agree, but being incorrect and being delusional are different things.

Check this out:

"A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception."

Sounds about right to me.

346 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:17:27pm
347 Outrider  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:18:18pm

re: #343 DEZes

She was trying to act like it was just pictures of cute little kittens.

well. I guess if you move a couple of the arms around and flip them pointing down, put a tail on it... and a cats head, and fur, and bulk up the middle a little and teach it to assassinate balls of yarn, then I guess it could pass for a kitten.

348 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:18:18pm

re: #340 USBeast

Walt, I ain't that deep. I believe in Liberty. I define Liberty as the fundamental, inborn right of human beings to go to Heaven or to Hell in their own hand basket without interference. Islam is diametrically opposed to my definition of Liberty. Therefore I oppose it and will, with reservations, support any cause or force that will work to defeat it. I am too old to believe that this fight will not be ugly.

If you don't grasp that fascism in general is diametrically opposed to your definition of liberty, whether it's Islamo or not, you haven't been paying attention.

349 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:19:38pm

re: #340 USBeast

Walt, I ain't that deep. I believe in Liberty. I define Liberty as the fundamental, inborn right of human beings to go to Heaven or to Hell in their own hand basket without interference. Islam is diametrically opposed to my definition of Liberty. Therefore I oppose it and will, with reservations, support any cause or force that will work to defeat it. I am too old to believe that this fight will not be ugly.

So, what you are saying about Islam, it your way or the highway. You see no difference between a Muslim and a radical Muslim?

Hey, tell me what your reservation are? You should be "deep" enough to do that, right?

350 Steffan  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:21:29pm

re: #303 jwb7605

Bill O'Reilly just played a whole bunch of Bob Hope USO tour clips.
One of them was on the USS Hancock, 1968.
Never thought I'd see that again.
The clip showed Rosie Grier, but I remember most seeing Ann Margret (sp?) and being dismayed that she looked every bit of 30. Too old for me then.

Ann-Margret has two stellar qualities:

1) She did, and does, give unhesitating and unconditional support for the troops.

2) On stage when touring with the USO, she very often didn't wear anything under that miniskirt. Hence the line in Full Metal Jacket, "I want to see fur."

351 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:21:45pm

re: #341 Thanos

Well more of them will choose to make it a clash of civilizations as long as some of the west characterizes it that way. A lot of them might end up that way if we keep pimping Ayman Al Zawahiri's lines for him as well. There are moderates who are not involved, and the Eurofascist eagerness to make this about "all muslims" doesn't help the cause. Keep in mind we still have two wars to win under questionable leadership -- their hysteria isn't helping.

Don't give me that crap about it being our fault, as if we have to tip-toe around, dreading the delicate "Muslim sensibilities" if we speak openly of the problems. No actual moderate is going to decide to become a radical because someone said something mean about Islam -- that is just a pc excuse to stifle the open debate of the problems.

352 DEZes  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:22:43pm

re: #347 Outrider

I have seen some obtuse angles before, but her analogy has to take the cake.

353 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:23:25pm

re: #351 stevieray

Don't give me that crap about it being our fault, as if we have to tip-toe around, dreading the delicate "Muslim sensibilities" if we speak openly of the problems. No actual moderate is going to decide to become a radical because someone said something mean about Islam -- that is just a pc excuse to stifle the open debate of the problems.

I'm talking about Eurofascists, and you say "our"; does this mean you are a Eurofascist?

354 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:24:16pm
355 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:26:22pm

re: #351 stevieray

Please explain the difference in Spencer's Neo-Takfirism and Ayman Al Zawahari's or Said Qutbs? He pretty much repeats them verbatim does he not, and says that's they way it is if you want to be a true muslim? He acknowleges that moderate muslims exist, but also follows with the "but" statement that they aren't true muslims. Mullah Omar says the same thing.

356 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:26:56pm

re: #334 Thanos
"You missed the point, as I knew you would. What the hell are they doing that's effective ? That's a big zero"

What they're doing is letting the people being intimidated by Islam on a daily basis, and lied to by their governments, know that they are not voiceless. That may not be much at this point but it could (and hopefully will) become huge.

357 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:27:26pm

Islamo-, Euro-, Shinto-, Communo-, it makes no difference. They are all varieties of fascism, whether religious or secular, and whether national or international. They all elevate the collective over the individual.

They are all the enemies of individual rights and freedoms

358 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:28:05pm

re: #356 USBeast

Yeah, I get it "Follow us or you're doomed, even though we are not doing anything helpfull or effective".

359 Boolz  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:29:38pm

re: #110 Killian Bundy

Legalizing Marijuana Tops Obama Online Poll

/gee, that explains a lot about Obama voters, why am I not surprised?

what? That they support pot legalization or that 10,000 voters voted 600,000 times?

360 Aye Pod  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:29:39pm

re: #339 CapeCoddah

Great post, cape.

361 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:29:56pm

re: #356 USBeast

"You missed the point, as I knew you would. What the hell are they doing that's effective ? That's a big zero"

What they're doing is letting the people being intimidated by Islam on a daily basis, and lied to by their governments, know that they are not voiceless. That may not be much at this point but it could (and hopefully will) become huge.

I don't know if you hang around Gates of Vienna, but it sounds like you should. You may not realize it, but you are sounding like a fascist.

362 Sunlight  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:30:04pm

Isn't it weird that Daniel Pipes, who was one of the only people to talk about terrorism and "choice Islam", used to be so controversial. And he has stuck to his position and now has been passed by by the anti-jihadi crowd, who want to actually ban Islam altogether (thus becoming rabble rousers). Good for Daniel Pipes and I sure hope Geert doesn't join the stampede, even though he must be lonely where he is.

363 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:30:29pm

re: #344 Killgore Trout

Have fun at your Nazi party.

What? I mean...what?! You have a problem with Liberty?

364 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:31:08pm

re: #361 Walter L. Newton

I don't know if you hang around Gates of Vienna, but it sounds like you should. You may not realize it, but you are sounding like a fascist.

Rubbish!

365 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:31:35pm

re: #363 USBeast

What? I mean...what?! You have a problem with Liberty?

Does your liberty include Muslims?

366 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:31:35pm

re: #364 USBeast

Rubbish!

No, you really DO sound like a fascist.

367 Boolz  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:32:26pm

remember that Europe is the continent that brought us both socialism and fascism, so the likelihood that making an alliance with anybody there will result in dealing with nutjobs will be about a billion percent

368 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:33:43pm

re: #353 Thanos

I'm talking about Eurofascists, and you say "our"; does this mean you are a Eurofascist?

Go fuck yourself, you self righteous prick. I ain't playing your "put the debate opponent of the defensive by calling him a fascist sympathizer" bullshit. I've seen it done too many times to play.

Tell me, why do you think, "Well more of them will choose to make it a clash of civilizations as long as some of the west characterizes it that way."? Are Muslims so loosely tied to human values that the words of a few can send them into maniacal radicalism? Are they less capable of rational thought than we?

369 Noam Chumpski  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:33:52pm

Those dudes may be racists, but that building their standing in front of is way cool... like out of a Potter film or somethin'.

370 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:34:18pm
371 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:34:18pm

re: #342 Salamantis

People can legitimately believe in that for which there is no supporting evidence, as long as there is also no contradictory evidence, without such beliefs being considered delusional.

If there is credible empirical evidence FOR a contention, it isn't an exercise in belief to accept it, but an exercise of knowledge. If there is credible empirical evidence AGAINST an assertion, then it is untruth, and it is delusional to nevertheless embrace an empirically demonstrated untruth in the face of such contradictory empirical evidence.

So what you're saying is, unless I have evidence that a person's assertion isn't true, I have to give the person's assertion respect no matter how absurd the assertion sounds or be labeled a bigot?

372 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:35:30pm

While we're on the subject of Optical Illusions (don't worry, this isn't a scary one):

Turn up your volume and get very close to the screen. Just as the car passes behind the trees, you can see something hovering over it when it comes out from behind. Look VERY closely.

373 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:35:41pm

re: #363 USBeast

What? I mean...what?! You have a problem with Liberty?

No, you sir have a problem understanding that you, in the least, are sitting on the edge of being a fascist. You make no distinction between a radical Muslim and a everyday Muslim, you use the word Islam to describe the trouble makers, not radical Islam, and then you make blanket statements about "inborn right of human beings to go to Heaven or to Hell," which indicates that you see your civilization (Euro-West-Christian) as better than their civilization, which you call an "it."

No, you have the problem with liberty, in the sense that you don't know what it means.

374 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:36:02pm

re: #372 gclaghorn

While we're on the subject of Optical Illusions (don't worry, this isn't a scary one):

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

Turn up your volume and get very close to the screen. Just as the car passes behind the trees, you can see something hovering over it when it comes out from behind. Look VERY closely.

Drat. Wrong thread. Never mind.

375 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:36:59pm

re: #365 Thanos

Does your liberty include Muslims?

Do you think you'll get an answer? I asked him what his "reservations" were in support groups that were anti-Islam, and he won't answer that.

376 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:37:27pm
377 cagney  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:39:28pm

re: #144 Charles

Oops, British sense of understatement getting me into trouble again apologies.

Thanos, doing a bit of searching of the UBA. I've googled them with the anti-fascist groups UAF and searchlight and only came up with this link:

[Link: www.londonclasswar.org...]

"With police numbers increasing and the potential of being blocked in rising, it was time to shift. Having taken a short break for refreshments, about 35 anti-fascists returned to the Square to find the fash had now got their act together but were split into two separate groups. This included a contingent from a group called the United British Alliance (mostly football hooligans) who claim to be non-racist. Indeed it has been suggested by the NF that their number includes non-whites. We did not see any on the day, and when we approached their picket of about 60 lads, amongst the loyalist chanting were several cries, in our direction of "race traitors". So much for them not being racists!"

I tried goggling far right group the NF to see what they saw but found this

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

"Amid confusion about whether the rally was going ahead, 140 supporters of the National Front and United British Alliance turned up in Trafalgar Square as well as 60 members from the Sikh community. The Metropolitan Police said that four arrests were made, including one for carrying a knife in public and another for breach of the peace."

I also found this link:

[Link: www.fairuk.org...]

This is an Islamaphobic watch society that claimed the UBA were right wing protesters for waving Union Jacks. Unfortunately the full details can't be copied over, you will have to check it out for yourself.

As to question about blanked out faces, I can see where you are coming from. I don't know the full answers but you have to appreciate that this is the UK, not the US where freedom of speech is woven in the constitution.

In this period of political correctness, were most private and public sector companies have anti-discrimination policies there is a possibility of dismissal for behaviour that could be deemed racist. As an Islamaphobic watch site that works with the Government and most likely be funded by them deems a protest outside a mosque as an Islamaphobic incident, don't you think you would want to keep your identity secret?

[Link: www.fairuk.org...]

Again, if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear. This is the problem with British society we live in a state of rumour and fear with no guaranteed rights of free speech and a government constantly introducing legislation about 'non-crimes' like the religious and race discrimination acts.

I just hope the same sort of legislative 'thought-crime' agenda is not perused over there in the States now that Obama is in charge.
It's half two over here in the UK and need to get up for work in the morning.

378 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:40:47pm

re: #368 stevieray

Good debats skillz there. Ad Hominem doesn't work with me.

You gonna answer my questions first? Is it helpful to have both sides preaching from Said Qutb and telling them that's the way it is?

I'm not down for the war against Islam, I am down for the war against Al Qaeda, the MB, TTP, HuM, HuJI, PLO, HAMAS, Quds force, as well as the political ideology from particular schools of Islam behind that.

379 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:40:52pm

re: #365 Thanos

Does your liberty include Muslims?

Certainly! I have no problem with anyone practicing their belief system as long as it does not preclude me from practicing mine. My problem with Islam is that it insists that the only religion allowed by their God is Islam and that the Constitution that I hold dear is blasphemy and that defending that Constitution is worthy of a death sentence.

Why does anyone here have a problem with that?

380 Aye Pod  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:42:14pm

re: #345 Boogberg

Check this out:

"A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception."

Sounds about right to me.

Well, I think many beliefs are clearly delusional - it depends on what their reasons for believing are. For many others it's more just a case of wishful thinking, with far more hope than certainty involved. And of course, God's non-existence is not a matter of established fact. So I wouldn't class everyone who in some sense believes in a God as delusional, even though I think it's highly likely they are wrong.

381 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:42:41pm

re: #366 gclaghorn

No, you really DO sound like a fascist.

Excuse me. When and how did fascists speak up for Liberty?

382 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:42:46pm

re: #376 Iron Fist

That one is easy. Radical Muslims kill the "infidels". Regular Muslims support radical Muslims who are killing the "infidel".

That doesn't leave a whole hell of a lot of room to coexist.

I know "regular" (I couldn't find a better word) Muslims who do not support the radical Muslims. The big problem is that this, in the least, is a cult, one that controls all of your life. And, even if you don't agree with any of it, if you are a Muslim, it is very hard to just rebel against the whole radical side.

Have you ever belonged to a cult? I suspect not. I have, I know what group dynamics can do to anyone, any rational, alive human being.

I will go along with you that a quiet Muslim is a Muslim that tacitly endorses the radicals. But it is no where easy to do otherwise.

The radical have to be gone before Islam will have it's reformation.

383 beermeister  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:43:24pm

re: #41 ornery elephant

Is there any Counter-Jihad group or political party with an agenda of anti-jihad located in Europe, that isn't neo-nazi, anti-Semitic, white supremacist, racist or xenophobic?

Barnabus Fund

[Link: www.barnabasfund.org...]

384 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:44:36pm

re: #375 Walter L. Newton

Do you think you'll get an answer? I asked him what his "reservations" were in support groups that were anti-Islam, and he won't answer that.

He got his answer.

385 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:46:03pm

re: #340 USBeast

Walt, I ain't that deep. I believe in Liberty. I define Liberty as the fundamental, inborn right of human beings to go to Heaven or to Hell in their own hand basket without interference. Islam is diametrically opposed to my definition of Liberty. Therefore I oppose it and will, with reservations, support any cause or force that will work to defeat it. I am too old to believe that this fight will not be ugly.

I will ask you once again... above, you say you will "with reservations, support any cause or force that will work to defeat it."

List your reservations.

386 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:46:44pm

re: #384 USBeast

He got his answer.

Where is my answer? See 385 (and that's the second time I have asked you).

387 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:47:25pm

re: #379 USBeast

Certainly! I have no problem with anyone practicing their belief system as long as it does not preclude me from practicing mine. My problem with Islam is that it insists that the only religion allowed by their God is Islam and that the Constitution that I hold dear is blasphemy and that defending that Constitution is worthy of a death sentence.

Why does anyone here have a problem with that?


The problem with your statement is highlighted. Not all muslims believe that do they?

388 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:48:13pm

re: #381 USBeast

Excuse me. When and how did fascists speak up for Liberty?

See Thanos in #387.

389 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:50:00pm

re: #371 Boogberg

So what you're saying is, unless I have evidence that a person's assertion isn't true, I have to give the person's assertion respect no matter how absurd the assertion sounds or be labeled a bigot?

You don't have to respect their belief yourself, in the sense of personally embracing it, but you do have to grant that it is not delusional for others to hold it. It is not delusional to believe in God. It is not delusional not to. People who hold each of these two positions should each respect the other's prerogative to hold the other position without being labeled delusional. Because there's no empirical evidence either way.

To label all those who hold different beliefs than you do (as opposed to those who reject empirical evidence in order to embrace a demonstrable untruth) as delusional sure sounds like a facet of bigotry to me - although most of what bigotry is, as I pointed out in post # 213, is:

"when you develop general stereotypes against a race, sex, religion, or sexual orientation, and apply those stereotypes reflexively to any individual member of any of those groups that you happen to meet."

such as when you label all gays as San Fran flaunters, or all Caucasians as vapid backyard grillmaster Yodas, or all women as either Madonnas or whores, or all Christians as Biblical Literalists, or all Muslims as Wahhab-Qutb embracing Al Qaedans.

390 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:50:19pm

re: #385 Walter L. Newton

I will ask you once again... above, you say you will "with reservations, support any cause or force that will work to defeat it."

List your reservations.

I respond to polite requests. I don't take orders.

391 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:51:04pm

re: #390 USBeast

I respond to polite requests. I don't take orders.

Oh, okay. "I could answer your question, but you didn't ask nicely, but I won't." Gimme a break!

392 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:53:27pm

re: #390 USBeast

I respond to polite requests. I don't take orders.

Ha! Then I'll sit back for a while and watch Thanos duke it out with you. He is more than capable of handling this issue. I'm interested in watching when you chicken out of answering his questions?

Anyone want to takes odds?

393 Boolz  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:53:30pm

this "clash of civilizations" would end very quickly if the Western world would quit buying Arabian oil. The Mohamadeans (or however you spell it) would be back to hacking at each other with swords on camelback within a generation if we weren't PAYING them to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars per DAY to get their crude. Energy independence, whether by increasing our own domestic supply or by conservation (or heaven forbid, both) would do far more good than making alliances with Hitlers bastard children

394 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:57:14pm

What I'm trying to get across here is that if we are going to change things we have to stick to the essential and the specific. Islamic reformation isn't going to come about if we take pressure off, but it's not going to come about either if we go around spouting off that there's no way to reform it, and the problem is Islam itself.

When it comes to Liberty, pre reformation Christianity and their support of the divine right of Kings was the problem. Then came reformation. I'm not forgiving radical muslims a thing, and I want them taken down whole, but I can't go for the "it's them or us line" people try to sell.

If we allow the loudest, ugliest, and most strident voices lead us then we will end up in a bad, bad, place. Daniel Pipes isn't one of the ugly voices, suggest you do some more reading by him.

395 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 6:58:00pm

re: #378 Thanos

Good debats skillz there. Ad Hominem doesn't work with me.

You gonna answer my questions first? Is it helpful to have both sides preaching from Said Qutb and telling them that's the way it is?

I'm not down for the war against Islam, I am down for the war against Al Qaeda, the MB, TTP, HuM, HuJI, PLO, HAMAS, Quds force, as well as the political ideology from particular schools of Islam behind that.

I will answer it this way. I am not anti-jihad, I am anti Islamic supremacism.

I do not believe in attacking the symptoms, that is a waste of time. I believe in attacking the root of the problem -- the belief that the world is promised to the Muslims. Going after the active disease [terrorists] without attacking the carriers [all who believe in the ideology] is pointless and a guaranteed failure. The Muslim world will simply regenerate more terrorists.

I do not believe in blame-shifting. The violence of the terrorists is not due to the words of anyone in the West, and to intimate that it is simply plays into their hands -- the "we're the victim" meme is part of the lifeblood of al Qaeda et al.

And BTW... going straight for the Godwin-lite "are you a fascist?" argument ain't great debating skillz either.

396 najia  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:00:17pm

Actually I'm not surprised at all that Wilders is now suddenly interested in being allies with Vlaams Belang considering that the Anne Frank Foundation recently singled out him in it's annual report on racism and extremism, as one of the primary causes for the rise of Islamophobia and right-wing activism in The Netherlands. The report was done in cooperation with Leiden University and was released just a few days ago.

The report (in Dutch) goes into lengthy detail listing all possible aspects which may be contributing to the sudden changes towards extremism, but it does not discuss Islamophobia as a separate issue as it does in the case of right-wing extremism and Geert Wilders. Instead, the report strongly hints Islamophobia when it goes into detail citing both, the law and several examples of Geert Wilders political statements regarding Islam and Muslims, in order to prove that what he's doing is in fact against the law and purely intended to incite hatred, racism and discrimination towards Muslims with his hate-filled political agenda. However Geert Wilders cannot be charged with any crime he commits in the regard as long as he keeps making these hate-filled statement within the confines of parliament. As a parliamentarian he is granted immunity when it comes to freedom of speech in parliament, which basically means he can say whatever he wants even if it's racist or incites to hatred. As long as he doesn't do it in public, he is OK.

Now that one of the most prominent Jewish organizations is willing to expose his tactics for what they are, he may be thinking he can no longer purely rely on his "I love Jews, so I'm not a hater" shield to avoid being held accountable for incitment of hatred. So naturally it makes sense for him to seek support and perhaps attract even stronger reinforcement closer to home among the Flemish by cranking up their common nationalist ideals.

397 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:00:51pm
398 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:01:00pm

re: #395 stevieray

Well you did say "Our" and I was speaking of the fascists, that's what this thread is about, and everything I"ve said is in context of that, I'll apologize if you're offended.

Now if you're for taking down the ideology, can you tell me the main orgs ?

399 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:05:27pm
400 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:05:54pm

re: #389 Salamantis

You don't have to respect their belief yourself, in the sense of personally embracing it, but you do have to grant that it is not delusional for others to hold it. It is not delusional to believe in God. It is not delusional not to. People who hold each of these two positions should each respect the other's prerogative to hold the other position without being labeled delusional. Because there's no empirical evidence either way.

See? This is where I have a problem. What about people who believe space aliens reside under miles of ocean? I think people who believe that are kooks and I'd probably tell them so. Now, there's no evidence that space aliens don't reside on the ocean's floor. Does that make me a bigot?

401 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:06:36pm

re: #400 Boogberg

What?! Aliens aren't in the Mariannas trench?

402 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:06:51pm

re: #387 Thanos

The problem with your statement is highlighted. Not all muslims believe that do they?

Read the Koran. No, not all Muslims believe it, just as not all Christians take the Bible as literal truth. There are, however, many Muslims willing to follow the path of their "prophet" and fight "until all religion is for Allah". These must be fought and defeated. All I've said is that this will not be a clean fight. That's a prediction, not a wish.

403 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:08:25pm

re: #400 Boogberg

See? This is where I have a problem. What about people who believe space aliens reside under miles of ocean? I think people who believe that are kooks and I'd probably tell them so. Now, there's no evidence that space aliens don't reside on the ocean's floor. Does that make me a bigot?

But there is scientific evidence that proves their AREN'T space aliens under miles of ocean. Therefore, it IS delusion.

404 beermeister  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:08:35pm

re: 394 Thanos

Thanos, I believe Christianity lends itself better to reformation than Islam does.

405 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:08:48pm

I think that the best we can do at this point is to kill committed jihadis wherever they operate, and to infect the theocratic and totalitarian regimes and organizations that breed them with the meme of constitutional democracy, and its promise of this-world peace, freedom, equality of opportunity and prosperity, in order to undermine their paradiasical next-world reward mindset with which they keep their subjects oppressed and enslaved this side of death.

406 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:10:59pm

re: #402 USBeast

That's why I like to keep the water less muddied by making specific statements. We know the groups pimping the ideology, (MB, Hizb Ut Tahrir, Darul Uloom, etc. ) the groups financing jihad (HLF, JuD, etc.) and the actual terror groups. So my intent is always to keep the spotlight laser focused there, and not on all muslims, or Islam.

407 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:11:18pm

re: #392 Walter L. Newton

Ha! Then I'll sit back for a while and watch Thanos duke it out with you. He is more than capable of handling this issue. I'm interested in watching when you chicken out of answering his questions?

Anyone want to takes odds?

Thanos is not asking questions. He is making statements. I disagree with his statements.

408 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:11:52pm

re: #407 USBeast

Thanos is not asking questions. He is making statements. I disagree with his statements.

But Walter -is- asking questions. Why don't you answer them?

409 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:12:01pm

re: #397 Iron Fist

It may not be easy for Mohammedans to really condemn terrorism, but if they don't find the stones to do it, then sooner or later nuclear weapons are going to be used in this conflict.

Pakistan already has nuclear weapons. They lack ballistic missiles that are capable of targeting the United States, but a weapon could be put on a ship and delivered to practically any port city on earth. The only thing that has spared us this catastrophy thus far is that Pakistans dictatorial military aren't all Jihadis.

Had there been no Iraqi war, Libya would now have nuclear weapons. Would Kadaffi have used them? I don't think even he knows the answer to that question. God knows he isn't the most rational human being on the planet.

MAD is no deterrant to the Islamonazis. It is just suicide bombing writ large. The fact that we could inflict a ghastly retribution for such an act would not stop them. In fact, it might be seen as desirable. The Jihadis have spent considerable effort in telling us that they love death.

I don't disagree. So what is the answer? To what extent are you willing to go to make this happen?

One thing is certain. They aren't going to leave us alone and let us live in peace.

Well then, it's going to be a problem, because the "everyday" Muslim will not be able to find the "stones" to condemn the radical elements in their religion.

To what extent are you willing to go to make this happen

1) Become self-sufficient as we can in regards to our energy needs
2) Stop all immigration to the US from Muslim countries.
3) A national ID card
3) Develop an iron-clad visa system, in for 6 months, out after 6 months or we will send you home. Works with number 3.
4) Isolate countries where we can prove that there is support for radical Islam

And more I suspect. There is a lot more we can do without stepping on any rights, but at the same time, we must remember the right of our citizens first.

410 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:12:18pm

re: #404 beermeister

You could be right, but it might not have looked as reformable in Medieval times. The warlike nature of Mohammed does make it much more difficult however.

411 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:13:50pm

re: #394 Thanos

I agree with that. Why help your opponent recruit? Divide and conquer instead.

412 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:15:02pm

re: #400 Boogberg

See? This is where I have a problem. What about people who believe space aliens reside under miles of ocean? I think people who believe that are kooks and I'd probably tell them so. Now, there's no evidence that space aliens don't reside on the ocean's floor. Does that make me a bigot?

It is within the realm of logical possibility to empirically ascertain the truth of their contentions one way or the other. For instance, they could collect donations to support submarine expeditions that could take geological echo soundings of the ocean floor in order to locate the specific location(s) of such alleged entities. Tell them that you'll entertain their contentions with less than bemused scepticism once they actually endeavor to check them out for themselves, and can provide some proof, since it is within the realm of logical possibility for them to do so.

On the other hand, there is no empirical way whatsoever to ascertain the existence or nonexistence of an extra-empirical entity.

413 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:15:36pm

re: #405 Salamantis

I think that the best we can do at this point is to kill committed jihadis wherever they operate, and to infect the theocratic and totalitarian regimes and organizations that breed them with the meme of constitutional democracy, and its promise of this-world peace, freedom, equality of opportunity and prosperity, in order to undermine their paradiasical next-world reward mindset with which they keep their subjects oppressed and enslaved this side of death.

I could not agree more. The solution is to build up the antithesis of fascism- that being democracy. Which is exactly why victory in Iraq is so important.

414 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:15:59pm

re: #409 Walter L. Newton

1) Become self-sufficient as we can in regards to our energy needs
2) Stop all immigration to the US from Muslim countries.
3) A national ID card
3) Develop an iron-clad visa system, in for 6 months, out after 6 months or we will send you home. Works with number 3.
4) Isolate countries where we can prove that there is support for radical Islam

And more I suspect. There is a lot more we can do without stepping on any rights, but at the same time, we must remember the right of our citizens first.

And I want to add that includes our law abiding Muslim citizens.

415 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:16:29pm

re: #403 gclaghorn

But there is scientific evidence that proves their AREN'T space aliens under miles of ocean.


No there isn't.

416 rightymouse  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:17:17pm

re: #413 Sharmuta

I could not agree more. The solution is to build up the antithesis of fascism- that being democracy. Which is exactly why victory in Iraq is so important.

Exactly. This is an ideological battle, not a racial/ethnic one.

417 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:17:20pm

The other big focus also has to be on the Radical Islamic tyrants. Without changing them, we get nowhere fast. They are the ones fighting reformation the hardest for they live in fear of what might come with a reformation.

418 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:17:40pm

re: #406 Thanos

That's why I like to keep the water less muddied by making specific statements. We know the groups pimping the ideology, (MB, Hizb Ut Tahrir, Darul Uloom, etc. ) the groups financing jihad (HLF, JuD, etc.) and the actual terror groups. So my intent is always to keep the spotlight laser focused there, and not on all muslims, or Islam.

That is ridiculous. Islam is the issue. Have you ever read a statement by any Islamic group that has not made Islamic doctrine the reason for their actions or pronouncements? Have you ever heard of any demand by Muslim students, cabdrivers or factory workers that was not based on Sharia law?

419 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:18:24pm

re: #418 USBeast

That is ridiculous. Islam is the issue. Have you ever read a statement by any Islamic group that has not made Islamic doctrine the reason for their actions or pronouncements? Have you ever heard of any demand by Muslim students, cabdrivers or factory workers that was not based on Sharia law?


Ever hear of Zudi Jasser?

420 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:19:22pm

re: #419 Thanos

Ever hear of Zudi Jasser?

Yep.

[Link: www.aifdemocracy.org...]

421 gclaghorn  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:20:02pm

re: #415 Boogberg

No there isn't.

I stand corrected: [Link: www.metacafe.com...]

422 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:20:46pm

re: #419 Thanos

Ever hear of Zudi Jasser?

No, and I am always eager to learn.

423 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:21:07pm

re: #416 rightymouse

Exactly. This is an ideological battle, not a racial/ethnic one.

I agree, and have said as much. I'd add it's also not a religious conflict, despite what some think. At it's core, the problem with islam is the blending of politics and religion.

424 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:21:07pm

re: #405 Salamantis

I think that the best we can do at this point is to kill committed jihadis wherever they operate,

aka Terrorize the terrorists &trade

425 Pastorius  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:22:57pm

Thanos,
YOu asked my opinion on the site Cagney linked to. However, his comment has now been taken down, so I have no idea.

I have read through this thread, and I must say, I don't agree with a lot of what you say. For instance, in debating with USBeast you make the point that we killed thousands of Jihadis in Iraq. You say we need to kill the terrorists and avoid the clash of civilizations scenario. USBeast and others make the point that the Clash of Civilizations scenario is up to Muslims.

I think they are right.

Two things to remember,

1) there are no moderate Muslim political organizations, academic institutions, media outlets, or governments, of any appreciable size, anywhere in the world. In other words, the moderate Muslims have not shown up. They have not bothered to organize, and that tells me either they don't care, or they are on the other side.

2) while we may have killed thousands of Jihadists in Iraq, we have also found that there are thousands of them in the UK. And, that's the one country which openly admits how many Jihadists they are tracking. I think we can safely assume there are similar problems in every country in which Muslims live.

I do not believe the problem of Sharia-advocating Jihadism is a small problem. I believe it is a very large problem. There are entire Muslim nations who run their system of law on Sharia principles. Muslim nations can count on thousands of people showing up to scream death to America. Anti-Semitism is almost monolithic in the Muslim world. Twenty-five years ago, the Sudan was taken over by an Arab Muslim government and now, for twenty-five years, there has been a genocide by Arab Muslims against black Christians and animists. The entire Muslim world stands in lockstep agreement that there is nothing going awry in Sudan. 2.5 million people have been murdered, and it continues on today.


The problem with the Jihad is so large it is almost incomprehensible. We may not want a clash of civilizations, but we can not avoid it anymore than we could avoid the Cold War.

426 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:25:00pm

re: #398 Thanos

Well you did say "Our" and I was speaking of the fascists, that's what this thread is about, and everything I"ve said is in context of that, I'll apologize if you're offended.

Now if you're for taking down the ideology, can you tell me the main orgs ?

I took your statement as legitimizing the "blame shift", i.e. the words of some Westerners can trigger uncontrollable rage in the Muslim world. If that's not what you meant, I apologize for over-reacting.

I mean "our" as in "The West"... i though t you were making the tired old argument that we need to watch our p's and q's whenever we speak of Islam -- to elevate it, in a sense -- that we see in the pc diplomatic apologists infesting DC and Brussels.

As for the last question... sorry, ain't gonna jump through hoops for ya'.

As I was wrong about your apologist intent, and you are wrong about my "sympathies", let's chalk it up to a miscommunication. Cool?

427 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:25:01pm

Ah, that Zudi Jasser. I welcome him to fight for Liberty.

428 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:25:08pm

re: #412 Salamantis

It is within the realm of logical possibility to empirically ascertain the truth of their contentions one way or the other. For instance, they could collect donations to support submarine expeditions that could take geological echo soundings of the ocean floor in order to locate the specific location(s) of such alleged entities. Tell them that you'll entertain their contentions with less than bemused scepticism once they actually endeavor to check them out for themselves, and can provide some proof, since it is within the realm of logical possibility for them to do so.

On the other hand, there is no empirical way whatsoever to ascertain the existence or nonexistence of an extra-empirical entity.

Oh no, Salamantis. These are ultra-elusive space aliens with technology far superior to our own, you see. There's no empirical way known to man to prove they are or aren't there.

429 rightymouse  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:25:20pm

re: #423 Sharmuta

I agree, and have said as much. I'd add it's also not a religious conflict, despite what some think. At it's core, the problem with islam is the blending of politics and religion.

The blending of politics and religion in its worst incarnation - theocracy on earth. This is the opposite of what we stand for here in America - at least that's what our Founding Fathers were trying to avoid.

430 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:28:24pm

re: #422 USBeast

No, and I am always eager to learn.

Sal posted the link above, there are more like Zudi out there, in our country and abroad. Nobody's paying much attention to them, or giving them much support, and it would probably be a good idea to do so.

The discussion war between the moderates and the Islamists goes on almost daily at this blog in Pakistan. Meantime Muslims are fighting Muslims as we type within their country, over the very wedge we are talking on.

431 beermeister  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:28:27pm

re: 405 Salamantis

I think that the best we can do at this point is to kill committed jihadis wherever they operate, and to infect the theocratic and totalitarian regimes and organizations that breed them with the meme of constitutional democracy, and its promise of this-world peace, freedom, equality of opportunity and prosperity, in order to undermine their paradiasical next-world reward mindset with which they keep their subjects oppressed and enslaved this side of death.

Afghanistan and Iraq are Islamic Republics. They are still very intolerant. Thanks Bush (being facetious). Especially in Afghanistan, we were attacked by Afghanistan. We had every right to go in, whoop them and institute a democratic, secular constitution. Bushie did no such thing. It would be akin to us defeating Japan and reinstituting Imperialism or us defeating Germany and reinstituting Fascism. Of course we didn't do that in WWII, we did the right thing. We destroyed the enemy and told them what the conditions are and what the constitution would be, we then helped them rebuild.

432 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:28:29pm

re: #428 Boogberg

Oh no, Salamantis. These are ultra-elusive space aliens with technology far superior to our own, you see. There's no empirical way known to man to prove they are or aren't there.

If they are extra-empirical entities, there is no way we can distinguish them from gods. This is a corollary of Arthur C. Clarke's Third Law:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

433 rightymouse  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:29:01pm

re: #428 Boogberg

Oh no, Salamantis. These are ultra-elusive space aliens with technology far superior to our own, you see. There's no empirical way known to man to prove they are or aren't there.


Oh, I dunno. Ask Dennis Kucinich, Shirley MacLaine or Louis Farrakhan.

434 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:29:32pm

re: #426 stevieray

I took your statement as legitimizing the "blame shift", i.e. the words of some Westerners can trigger uncontrollable rage in the Muslim world. If that's not what you meant, I apologize for over-reacting.

I mean "our" as in "The West"... i though t you were making the tired old argument that we need to watch our p's and q's whenever we speak of Islam -- to elevate it, in a sense -- that we see in the pc diplomatic apologists infesting DC and Brussels.

As for the last question... sorry, ain't gonna jump through hoops for ya'.

As I was wrong about your apologist intent, and you are wrong about my "sympathies", let's chalk it up to a miscommunication. Cool?

Cool.

435 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:32:42pm

re: #434 Thanos

Cool.

Cool.

436 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:32:44pm

re: #425 Pastorius

Sorry, it was to the "UBA" United Britain(ish?) Alliance. Looks to be a youth group and coalition distancing themselves from racism, but tied to a lot of BNP... so I"m curious.

437 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:33:14pm
438 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:35:31pm

re: #432 Salamantis

If they are extra-empirical entities, there is no way we can distinguish them from gods.

Right. So am I a bigot for calling these people out as kooks?

439 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:35:33pm

re: #425 Pastorius

Well I know you don't agree with me on some points, but would you agree that we need to support moderates where we find them, and that we have to stay focused on the root groups as well as the Islamic tyrants? Do you agree that even if we don't think it will work in our lifetimes that we ought to pursue pressing Islam to reform on the chance that it might come?

440 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:38:25pm

re: #431 beermeister

re: 405 Salamantis

I think that the best we can do at this point is to kill committed jihadis wherever they operate, and to infect the theocratic and totalitarian regimes and organizations that breed them with the meme of constitutional democracy, and its promise of this-world peace, freedom, equality of opportunity and prosperity, in order to undermine their paradiasical next-world reward mindset with which they keep their subjects oppressed and enslaved this side of death.

Afghanistan and Iraq are Islamic Republics. They are still very intolerant. Thanks Bush (being facetious). Especially in Afghanistan, we were attacked by Afghanistan. We had every right to go in, whoop them and institute a democratic, secular constitution. Bushie did no such thing. It would be akin to us defeating Japan and reinstituting Imperialism or us defeating Germany and reinstituting Fascism. Of course we didn't do that in WWII, we did the right thing. We destroyed the enemy and told them what the conditions are and what the constitution would be, we then helped them rebuild.

Women now go to school in Afghanistan. Fully a fourth of their parliament is comprised of women. The lion's share of the jihadis there infiltrate from Pakistan. We will have to find a way to deal with this, or to force Pakistan to, or both. Hamed Karzai remains a staunch US ally, and a popular Afghan President.

Iraq has had several free elections, both approving a new democratic constitution and filling its elective positions. Another election is slated for next month. Its parliament, supported by Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and President Jalal Talabani, just voted for a SOFA agreement that is practically indistinguishable from a mutual defence pact. Iraq's own army has recently defeated Sadrist forces in Basra and Al Qaedan forces in Mosul. It will be a pivotal US ally in the GWOT for the foreseeable future.

441 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:41:03pm

re: #431 beermeister

Careful, there's some BDS spittle rolling down your chin.

442 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:41:10pm
443 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:42:59pm

re: #430 Thanos

Sal posted the link above, there are more like Zudi out there, in our country and abroad. Nobody's paying much attention to them, or giving them much support, and it would probably be a good idea to do so.

The discussion war between the moderates and the Islamists goes on almost daily at this blog in Pakistan. Meantime Muslims are fighting Muslims as we type within their country, over the very wedge we are talking on.

Yes, I know. The war we are fighting is against the Islam that is required by Allah to fight us. If there are Muslims who are willing to fight with us, more power to them. If we could get back to the original point (however pointless that may be) Europe is beset by the very worst of Islamic radicals (and dead beats) and I am still not willing to condemn Geert Wilders for reaching out for allies.

444 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:43:30pm

re: #441 Thanos

Careful, there's some BDS spittle rolling down your chin.

re: #431 beermeister

And now presenting Beermeister-Off (tm) (formerly Edgar-Off) as seen on TV.

Shake... shake... press... press... pppsssttt... pppsssttt... pppsssttt... pppsssttt...

Gets rid of trolls and all sorts of annoying vermin.

445 rightymouse  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:43:40pm

431 beermeister

"Bushie"?

446 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:44:31pm

re: #438 Boogberg

Right. So am I a bigot for calling these people out as kooks?

Yep, because since, by your own definition, you cannot prove that their extra-empirical entities do not exist, you have, and can have, no empirical evidence that they are embracing untruth. Any more than you can have any empirical evidence that those who differ with you on the issue of God's existence are embracing untruth. As I said before, your extra-empirical space aliens are, for all practical purposes, indistinguishable from gods.

This is of course, only the case because of the stringent conditional straitjacket with which you have encased yourself. In most reasonable cases, empirical proof one way or the other is within the realm of logical possibility to obtain.

447 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:44:39pm

re: #442 Iron Fist

We're saying basically the same thing. As a practical matter, it only takes one side to cause a fight. Failure to resist aggression only invites more aggression. Smack it down hard enough when it begins, and it will quickly cease being a problem.

Things are much more complex than you are both making it. Do you think the "side" against us is truly unified? If so you miss one of our major strategic advantages. The groups in Pakistan are at war with each other every other month lately, and do you think Iran's not afraid of Jundullah and BLA?

448 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:45:10pm

re: #443 USBeast

and I am still not willing to condemn Geert Wilders for reaching out for allies.

Even if the "allies" are fascist or nazi's or race nationalist?

449 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:46:39pm

re: #425 Pastorius

the Clash of Civilizations scenario is up to Muslims.

I disagree. It is our prerogative to frame the conflict in a way which is consistent with our basic democratic values. That means we must hunt down and kill the terrorists, dismantle their infrastructure and cut off their sources of funding, all of which can and must be done without declaring our own jihad on the entire Muslim world.
In order to avoid becoming what we fight and biting off more than we can chew, we must walk that line.

450 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:46:43pm

re: #448 Walter L. Newton

Even if the "allies" are fascist or nazi's or race nationalist?

DingDingDing! The 64 gazillion dollar question!

451 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:47:50pm

re: #449 Spare O'Lake

I disagree. It is our prerogative to frame the conflict in a way which is consistent with our basic democratic values. That means we must hunt down and kill the terrorists, dismantle their infrastructure and cut off their sources of funding, all of which can and must be done without declaring our own jihad on the entire Muslim world.
In order to avoid becoming what we fight and biting off more than we can chew, we must walk that line.

Precisely. If we become fascist mirror images of our enemies in order to defeat them, then we lose, no matter who wins.

452 rightymouse  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:50:09pm

re: #443 USBeast

Yes, I know. The war we are fighting is against the Islam that is required by Allah to fight us. If there are Muslims who are willing to fight with us, more power to them. If we could get back to the original point (however pointless that may be) Europe is beset by the very worst of Islamic radicals (and dead beats) and I am still not willing to condemn Geert Wilders for reaching out for allies.

The problem here is that Europe tends to choose sides in a binary fashion - Fascism or communism (socialism), neither of which are idealogically sound for THEM (or anyone) in the long run. They are still thinking in terms of 'lords and serfs', 'aristocrats and riffraff'. Liberty for the individual as defined by our constitution has never dawned on them as an alternative. WHY?

453 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:51:02pm

re: #450 Salamantis

DingDingDing! The 64 gazillion dollar question!

Which I have asked him in a number of ways, a number of times, in this thread, but he has not answered.

454 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:52:37pm

Pastorius is both right and wrong, because the world's never simple. Whether it becomes a clash of civilizations is up to both sides. Either can make it so.

If Islam is going to reform, or just stop the terrorists, it's something they have to take on.

I'm in favor of not alienating the moderates where we can avoid that, I'm not going to worry about alienating the moderates where we have to. (e.g. I firmly support the Iraq war and the Afghan war, as well as hellfire strikes in Pakistan.)

455 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:52:45pm

Everyone got that? Salamantis asserts that belief in God is the same as believing space aliens reside on the ocean floor. I rest my case.

456 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:53:19pm

re: #452 rightymouse

The problem here is that Europe tends to choose sides in a binary fashion - Fascism or communism (socialism), neither of which are idealogically sound for THEM (or anyone) in the long run. They are still thinking in terms of 'lords and serfs', 'aristocrats and riffraff'. Liberty for the individual as defined by our constitution has never dawned on them as an alternative. WHY?

Maybe all of their individual-liberty, neither-a-master-nor-a-slave genes emigrated to the US...

/

But actually, they have been burdened with a history of adjacent geographies controlled by members of different languages and ethnicities that never impeded us here.

457 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:53:32pm

re: #448 Walter L. Newton

Even if the "allies" are fascist or nazi's or race nationalist?

Geert Wilders has steered a straight and narrow path around and between your bugaboos so far. I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Should he embrace the swastika at some point I will grieve and condemn as loudly as any other.

458 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:55:33pm
459 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:57:15pm

re: #455 Boogberg

Everyone got that? Salamantis asserts that belief in God is the same as believing space aliens reside on the ocean floor. I rest my case.

What I in fact said was that belief in one extra-empirical entity is practically indistinguishable from believing in another, since, by your definition, neither can be empirically detected.

Sorry, I won't let you get away with twisting my words, however much you might desire to.

But I do note that IDers ostensibly make no distinction between the two...;~)

/although we all know which one they mean...

460 rightymouse  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 7:58:23pm

re: #456 Salamantis

Maybe all of their individual-liberty, neither-a-master-nor-a-slave genes emigrated to the US...

/

But actually, they have been burdened with a history of adjacent geographies controlled by members of different languages and ethnicities that never impeded us here.


I, for one, am glad that my ancestors got out of there.

Am not so sure that it's a language, ethnicity issue so much as 'stuck' and not really knowing where to go.

We've been the 'melting pot' of all these languages and ethnic backgrounds, so we know it can be done.

What is the key? Liberty. Europe has never really, really tried that.

461 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:00:23pm

re: #457 USBeast

Geert Wilders has steered a straight and narrow path around and between your bugaboos so far. I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Should he embrace the swastika at some point I will grieve and condemn as loudly as any other.

And now you and I are communication. And Geert is looking into VB as possibly one of those "allies." But, it has been proven here on LGF (and other places) that VB has, beyond any argument, fascist and nazi like leaders and members.

So, why are you not shouting loudly now, tonight on this thread, which is where I came in on this subject talking to you.

462 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:02:51pm

re: #452 rightymouse

The problem here is that Europe tends to choose sides in a binary fashion - Fascism or communism (socialism), neither of which are idealogically sound for THEM (or anyone) in the long run. They are still thinking in terms of 'lords and serfs', 'aristocrats and riffraff'. Liberty for the individual as defined by our constitution has never dawned on them as an alternative. WHY?

That is a damned good question. It might just be that they have never regarded the "American Experiment" as worthy of respect. Cultural differences cannot be disregarded. This is why Europe is having so much trouble with Islamic immigrants.

463 Pastorius  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:08:25pm

Thanos,
You said: ... would you agree that we need to support moderates where we find them, and that we have to stay focused on the root groups as well as the Islamic tyrants? Do you agree that even if we don't think it will work in our lifetimes that we ought to pursue pressing Islam to reform on the chance that it might come?

I say: Yep. I do agree with all of that. In fact, I believe the Islamic concept of Ijma (consensus) actually sets the stage for a future Islamic Democracy.

We just have to solve a little problem called Sharia.

464 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:09:41pm

This story helps demonstrate my same old point about why the two-party system in the USA is superior to the multi-party parliamentary governments in the rest of the free election world.

The two party system forces both parties to fight over the middle ground. The multi-party system is all about attracting voters from the edges.

465 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:09:58pm

re: #459 Salamantis

What I in fact said was that belief in one extra-empirical entity is practically indistinguishable from believing in another, since, by your definition, neither can be empirically detected.

Sorry, I won't let you get away with twisting my words, however much you might desire to.

But I do note that IDers ostensibly make no distinction between the two...;~)

/although we all know which one they mean...

I'm re-opening my case.

It was you who verified the similarity between God and ocean floor space aliens, Salamantis. It's there for all to see. I'm sorry if that crashes your 'we must respect religious beliefs' meme, but that's just the way it is in the real world.

466 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:10:38pm

re: #462 USBeast

That is a damned good question. It might just be that they have never regarded the "American Experiment" as worthy of respect. Cultural differences cannot be disregarded. This is why Europe is having so much trouble with Islamic immigrants.

Here you seem to be saying that the difference in Muslim troubles between the US and Europe has less to do with the nature of the Muslims than it has to do with the difference between US and European culture and society. This may indeed be true. I hope that it is. I think that it is. But until we have the same percentage of Muslims in our nation that they have in theirs, there is no way to evaluate how true this may or may not be.

467 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:11:42pm

re: #457 USBeast

Geert Wilders has steered a straight and narrow path around and between your bugaboos so far. I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Should he embrace the swastika at some point I will grieve and condemn as loudly as any other.

I suggest you read Geert Wilders' address to the Jerusalem anti-jihad conference. In it, you will see that he vilifies every Muslim business, every Muslim immigrant, every Muslim neighbourhood, every Mosque - in short every Muslim in the Netherlands - as being the problem and needing to be dealt with immediately.

Here is a partial quote:

"But what we have to fear most is the creeping Islamisation, the stealth jihad. Because every Islamic neighbourhood, every Islamic shop, every mosque, every Islamic school, every burqa, every veil is regarded by many Muslims as building blocks towards a larger goal, towards domination.

This is in fact the essence of the problem. Not crime, not even the financial burden. The biggest problem is the demographic development, and the way it influences our society at large. Immigration from Muslim countries and the demographics will result in the Eurabia that the brave Bat Ye’or is warning about. It will become reality if we don’t act now."

- Geert Wilders

468 rightymouse  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:13:46pm

re: #462 USBeast

That is a damned good question. It might just be that they have never regarded the "American Experiment" as worthy of respect. Cultural differences cannot be disregarded. This is why Europe is having so much trouble with Islamic immigrants.

Cultural differences should not be fobbed off by the immigrant. When I go to another country, I certainly respect their laws and customs/culture - they should too, when they move to live in or visit another country. Remember the movie "The Ugly American"? It's now something different in Europe.

The problem Europe has is a) their tendency today towards socialistic (liberal) policies and squishy (liberal) attitudes and b) Islamic push-back on their weaknesses to get their way - a way which is in direct conflict with the existing cultures.

469 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:16:49pm

re: #466 Salamantis

The Europeans invited in the wave of immigrants more to fill the role of the servant class than to be countrymen on equal footing.

470 Pastorius  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:17:39pm

Thanos,

YOu said: If Islam is going to reform, or just stop the terrorists, it's something they have to take on.

I say: You and I agree there. If Islam is going to reform, it is up to Muslims to create the new synthesis. And, I believe that, if Muslims want to stop terrorists from waging Jihad in their name, they need to succeed in their own marketplace of ideas.

As long as the moderates don't succeed, we will have to keep tabs on the radicals, and play whack-a-mole.

The wild card in all this (and ultimately, sadly, it is not that wild) is nuclear terrorism. At the point where one, or several, of our major cities are destroyed, I can't imagine that Muslims would expect much restraint on our part.

And, that is the dangerous game the moderates are playing in keeping so silent. Their silence is, as Mark Steyn recently said, consent. And, if they don't want to reap the consequences, they must start coming to terms with the end game of the logic of Jihad. It is an apocalyptic world view, being espoused in their name.

471 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:19:06pm

re: #465 Boogberg

I'm re-opening my case.

It was you who verified the similarity between God and ocean floor space aliens, Salamantis. It's there for all to see. I'm sorry if that crashes your 'we must respect religious beliefs' meme, but that's just the way it is in the real world.

But if you'll notice, I said that in both cases we had, to be logically consistent, to grant respect for others' untestable beliefs in extra-empirical entities, not that we should deny it.

You are trying to maintain that we should lower our opinions of the beliefs of those who believe in God to match the opinions we might have of the beliefs of those who believe in extra-empirical space aliens (regardless of where such aliens might reside); I am answering that, since we cannot empirically falsify a belief in either, that we must raise our opinions of the beliefs of those who believe in extra-empirical space aliens to match our opinions of the beliefs of those who believe in God. And consider neither of these beliefs to be deluded, since we cannot empirically prove that either of them are.

And that's the way logic works. It demands consistency.

472 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:21:28pm
473 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:21:53pm

re: #469 Mich-again

The Europeans invited in the wave of immigrants more to fill the role of the servant class than to be countrymen on equal footing.

Bingo. They were offering serfdom, not citizenry. We accept legal immigrants as Americans like ourselves; in Europe, they, and their descendents, remain considered as irretrieveably other.

And that's a big honking problem for them - one they are giving to themselves. And they don't have to.

474 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:25:38pm

re: #461 Walter L. Newton

And now you and I are communication. And Geert is looking into VB as possibly one of those "allies." But, it has been proven here on LGF (and other places) that VB has, beyond any argument, fascist and nazi like leaders and members.

So, why are you not shouting loudly now, tonight on this thread, which is where I came in on this subject talking to you.

"Proven"? "Alleged"?... yes and words like "fascist" and "nazi" are easily tossed around.

Now what the hell is the meaning of "fascist and nazi like leaders and members"?

Please be specific.

475 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:29:16pm

re: #463 Pastorius

We just have to solve a little problem called Sharia.

How do you solve a problem called Sharia?
How do you hold a goon team in your hand?
(apologies to Sound of Music nuns)

476 rightymouse  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:29:37pm

re: #473 Salamantis

Bingo. They were offering serfdom, not citizenry. We accept legal immigrants as Americans like ourselves; in Europe, they, and their descendents, remain considered as irretrieveably other.

And that's a big honking problem for them - one they are giving to themselves. And they don't have to.

Like I said before, "lords and serfs" and "aristocracy and riff-raff". It's an ideological problem Europe has that they need to get rid of in order to counter the Islamic invasion on their turf.

477 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:30:38pm

re: #467 Spare O'Lake

- Geert Wilders

Am I supposed to have a problem with Mr. Wilders' statement?

478 beermeister  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:30:56pm

re: 440 Salamantis

I agree there has been some progress. There is still plenty of intolerance and and they are still Islamic Republics, with theocratic elements.

re: 441 Thanos

So, I can't criticize? Grow up. You have a serious problem. So, if you could have drawn up those two constitutions, that is the way you would have made them? I've read them.

If I criticized Christopher Cox, the head of the SEC, for not enforcing the naked shorting rule, getting rid of the short uptick rule last year after it had worked for almost 70 years since the Great Depression, lack of oversight, lack of disclosure and transparency amongst hedge funds, and lack of disclosure amongst shorts, would you say I have CDS?

re 444 Walter L. Newton

I've been reading LGF from the beginning and have largely supported and agreed with most points year in and year out. I have recommended it to a number of friends and people I know that are of a conservative bent. I did vote for Bush and stayed out of this election. I have read your posts and they are nasty to others. I have adhered to conservatism my entire life, including fiscal conservatism, military superiority, the Monroe, Truman and Reagan doctrines, and strict interpretations of the constitution.

Charles, it seems that there cannot be any dissent or questions on this sight, even from true conservatives, without others making childish and unsubstantiated attacks. Really sad and not very American.

479 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:31:16pm

re: #474 USBeast

"Proven"? "Alleged"?... yes and words like "fascist" and "nazi" are easily tossed around.

Now what the hell is the meaning of "fascist and nazi like leaders and members"?

Please be specific.

You might wanna check out some past LGF articles:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

480 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:32:11pm

re: #474 USBeast

"Proven"? "Alleged"?... yes and words like "fascist" and "nazi" are easily tossed around.

Now what the hell is the meaning of "fascist and nazi like leaders and members"?

Please be specific.

You've been registered here since Feb 2007. If you haven't seen the VB threads that Charles has posted, and you are not aware of the facts, then you are lying, and trying to put off answering my question.

Your true nature comes out every time you refuse to answer a simple question. You are not fooling anyone here.

481 rightymouse  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:32:31pm

re: #474 USBeast

"Proven"? "Alleged"?... yes and words like "fascist" and "nazi" are easily tossed around.

Now what the hell is the meaning of "fascist and nazi like leaders and members"?

Please be specific.


You need to review what has been posted by Charles here on this subject.

482 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:33:36pm

re: #477 USBeast

Am I supposed to have a problem with Mr. Wilders' statement?

BINGO... any other questions about USBeast, or has he given us enough insight to the fact that he is a fascist?

483 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:36:57pm

re: #477 USBeast

Am I supposed to have a problem with Mr. Wilders' statement?

Not if you are in favour of taking immediate action against American citizens simply because they are Muslims.

484 rightymouse  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:38:13pm

re: #477 USBeast

Am I supposed to have a problem with Mr. Wilders' statement?

Not if you're looking at things in typical Euro binary fashion. Fascism or communism/socialism...hmmm...pick one and see what one sticks for a while without bothering your life.

485 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:41:47pm

re: #471 Salamantis

But if you'll notice, I said that in both cases we had, to be logically consistent, to grant respect for others' untestable beliefs in extra-empirical entities, not that we should deny it.

You are trying to maintain that we should lower our opinions of the beliefs of those who believe in God to match the opinions we might have of the beliefs of those who believe in extra-empirical space aliens (regardless of where such aliens might reside); I am answering that, since we cannot empirically falsify a belief in either, that we must raise our opinions of the beliefs of those who believe in extra-empirical space aliens to match our opinions of the beliefs of those who believe in God. And consider neither of these beliefs to be deluded, since we cannot empirically prove that either of them are.

And that's the way logic works. It demands consistency.

I'm certainly not trying to raise opinions of either one of those beliefs because I think they're both shit. My main beef with you is labeling me a bigot (an inflammatory label) for thinking so.

486 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:45:31pm

re: #478 beermeister

re: #463 Pastorius

Thanos,
You said: ... would you agree that we need to support moderates where we find them, and that we have to stay focused on the root groups as well as the Islamic tyrants? Do you agree that even if we don't think it will work in our lifetimes that we ought to pursue pressing Islam to reform on the chance that it might come?

I say: Yep. I do agree with all of that. In fact, I believe the Islamic concept of Ijma (consensus) actually sets the stage for a future Islamic Democracy.

We just have to solve a little problem called Sharia.


We can't solve that one, they have to. The best thing Spencer has done is to call for the grand council of scholars, I forget what the heck it's called, where they can get to that.
I don't hear that anymore, but really it should be an incessant call or challenge until others start echoing it.

487 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:58:07pm

re: #485 Boogberg

I'm certainly not trying to raise opinions of either one of those beliefs because I think they're both shit. My main beef with you is labeling me a bigot (an inflammatory label) for thinking so.

You may be emotionally predisposed to either grant or deny both sets of beliefs the equal respect due them as empirically unfalsifiable and hence logically tenable, or you may be emotionally predisposed to grant either of them credit you would deny to the other. It matters not. Because we are not discussing feelings here, but what is or is not empirically ascertainable, and what that determination, or the inability to make such a determination, entails concerning the logical legitimacy of the labeling of others as delusional (that is, whether it is or is not in each case logically justifiable to do so).

To consistently apply logic is to embrace intellectual consistency over emotional caprice. And the primrose path to bigotry is paved with the acendency of emotion over intellection. Which is what it is to unjustifiably label others as deluded, or for that matter as anything else, based upon one's feelings on the matter, and in the absence of any empirical evidence for such a determination.

488 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 8:59:37pm
489 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:00:37pm

re: #488 andrew2

Bye Andrew.

490 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:01:59pm

re: #488 andrew2

where the heck did you come from, out of the blue here?

and what the hell are you talking about, a "white" Christian west?

491 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:02:56pm

re: #489 Walter L. Newton

Bye Andrew.

This thread is old, and about dead, and this guy comes on here and posts something like that? Where do these people come from, and why don't they engage in a conversation on an active thread?

492 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:03:56pm

re: #491 reine.de.tout

This thread is old, and about dead, and this guy comes on here and posts something like that? Where do these people come from, and why don't they engage in a conversation on an active thread?

I reported it.

493 beermeister  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:04:01pm

re: 486 Thanos

In fact, I believe the Islamic concept of Ijma (consensus) actually sets the stage for a future Islamic Democracy.

Good point on Ijma, but I would say it should just be a democracy without any religious overtones.

You may find this book interesting reading, if you have any interest in the subject. I think it is applicable to some of the thoughts on reformation.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Now, if we could get them to drink this we could all be friends.

[Link: www.stonebrew.com...]

494 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:05:10pm

re: #488 andrew2

Wow. Racist and religiously intolerant in a single short post.

That's a helluva twofer. And, unless I miss my guess, not to remain here for long - nor are you.

495 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:08:50pm

re: #488 andrew2

I really hope your comment isn't deleted. It's a fantastic example of why we're here.

496 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:09:33pm
White, Christian West.


Yeehaw!

497 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:10:18pm

re: #495 Killgore Trout

I really hope your comment isn't deleted. It's a fantastic example of why we're here.

I reported it. I guess it's up to Charles when he gets to it.

498 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:13:02pm

re: #488 andrew2

Western Civilization represents the crowning achievement of the Judeo- Christian ideal. It must be defended without apology and protected with the greatest of vigor and moral clarity.

What moral clarity are you talking about?

499 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:14:40pm

re: #494 Salamantis

Wow. Racist and religiously intolerant in a single short post.

That's a helluva twofer. And, unless I miss my guess, not to remain here for long - nor are you.

I've read thru most of this thread, and honestly, some of the name-calling makes me uncomfortable, where it seems to me that people are trying to have a discussion, and that may be because I have not yet completely refined my thoughts on all of this.

But that guy deserves anything you want to throw at him.

500 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:15:40pm

re: #498 Sharmuta

What moral clarity are you talking about?

Sharm, it's not coming back. They have no answers, they are just like a sick dog leaving a trail of loose shit across your living room rug, on it's way to die.

That's it, Andrew2 is no better than a dog.

501 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:17:51pm

re: #497 Walter L. Newton

He has left standing comments in the past that exemplify our racist enemies. I hope this is one of them.

502 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:19:57pm

This is who he is - or, at least he linked to his blog:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

503 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:20:46pm

re: #500 Walter L. Newton

I'm sure he won't clarify the statement in his profile, but I felt it was a point I should seek clarification. I would like to know if andrew thinks aligning with fascists is that "moral clarity" of which he's speaking.

504 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:21:02pm

re: #502 Salamantis

Lovely!

505 reine.de.tout  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:23:31pm

re: #502 Salamantis

This is who he is - or, at least he linked to his blog:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

That's a nasty piece of work, that one.

506 [deleted]  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:27:38pm
507 USBeast  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:28:15pm

Dear Mr. Johnson,

I have been accused, in this thread, of being a fascist and a nazi. I deny both charges. As I have often stated, I believe in Liberty. I define Liberty as the fundamental, inborn right of individuals to go to Heaven or to Hell in their own hand basket.

I have also stated that the beliefs of Islam are diametrically opposed to the Liberty that I, as an American, hold dear. No one here has proved me wrong.

There are people in Europe who believe as I do. The vast majority of them are neither "fascist" or "nazi", but several commenters seem to believe that anyone who believes that Islam is the problem is a "fascist" or a "nazi".

This, as I have stated before, is rubbish.

508 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:31:40pm

re: #504 Sharmuta

Lovely!

Considering the list of places he has been published, gang, we are loosing. There are some sites on that list that I would expect to see, but a few others surprised me.

There's a lot more people hooking into this white nationalism, and it's not just in Europe.

509 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:33:05pm

re: #507 USBeast

Dear Mr. Johnson,

I have been accused, in this thread, of being a fascist and a nazi. I deny both charges. As I have often stated, I believe in Liberty. I define Liberty as the fundamental, inborn right of individuals to go to Heaven or to Hell in their own hand basket.

I have also stated that the beliefs of Islam are diametrically opposed to the Liberty that I, as an American, hold dear. No one here has proved me wrong.

There are people in Europe who believe as I do. The vast majority of them are neither "fascist" or "nazi", but several commenters seem to believe that anyone who believes that Islam is the problem is a "fascist" or a "nazi".

This, as I have stated before, is rubbish.

But would you share a house with Eurofascism so you two could try to lock the doors against Islamofascism together, or would you try to lock both of these noxious vipers out? Because if you share a home with one viper in order to receive assistance in excluding another, you're still going to get bitten along the way.

510 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:37:22pm

FYI. Here are the online publications that Andrew2 (Lawrence Auster) has written for.

He is the author of The Path to National Suicide: An Essay on Immigration and Multiculturalism and Huddled Clichés: Exposing the fraudulent arguments that have opened America's borders to the world as well as articles for FrontPage Magazine, NewsMax, the Council of Conservative Citizens' Citizens Informer, American Renaissance, The Social Contract Press, National Review, the Occidental Quarterly, WorldNetDaily and The American Thinker. The Path to National Suicide is regarded, along with Peter Brimelow's, Alien Nation: Common Sense About America's Immigration Disaster, as a foundational text in the modern immigration restriction movement.

511 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:44:49pm

re: #508 Walter L. Newton

Considering the list of places he has been published, gang, we are loosing. There are some sites on that list that I would expect to see, but a few others surprised me.

There's a lot more people hooking into this white nationalism, and it's not just in Europe.

Judging from what he put in his LGF account page, he can be quite sane.

Western Civilization represents the crowning achievement of the Judeo- Christian ideal. It must be defended without apology and protected with the greatest of vigor and moral clarity.


That is a sentiment I have no difficulty defending. Many of the "racialist" writers begin on solid ground, defending individual liberty, free enterprise, the rights of man, etc... but only veer off into the bushes later, after they have roped you into their world.

Fordman was like that. Half of what he said was undoubtedly true; it wasn't until the end of a line of argument that he would lose touch with truth -- when he tied the ideals of Western Civ into a particular race, and began preaching separatism.

The articles in those publications could be entirely sane -- he may save his end-point arguments for less public forums.

512 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:47:15pm

re: #511 stevieray

That is a sentiment I have no difficulty defending. Many of the "racialist" writers begin on solid ground, defending individual liberty, free enterprise, the rights of man, etc... but only veer off into the bushes later, after they have roped you into their world.

Fordman was like that. Half of what he said was undoubtedly true; it wasn't until the end of a line of argument that he would lose touch with truth -- when he tied the ideals of Western Civ into a particular race, and began preaching separatism.

The articles in those publications could be entirely sane -- he may save his end-point arguments for less public forums.

When you think about it, not much different than the Arab English version of pronouncements from the Middle East versus the Arabic version of the same statements.

Public and private consumption. Think about it?

513 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 9:55:08pm

Checking a little closer Andrew2 may not be Lawrence Auster, but simply linked to him in his LGF user profile. Reading some of L.A's stuff on Frontpage Magazine, the is a real different level of writing skills. Andrew2's post was very simple-minded.

But, no matter, we can see where he's coming from.

Charles deleted #488.

Hey, USBeast, you may be interested in that link to Lawrence Auster's stuff, it's right up your white-ass alley.

Opps, did I say that?

514 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 10:02:56pm

re: #512 Walter L. Newton

When you think about it, not much different than the Arab English version of pronouncements from the Middle East versus the Arabic version of the same statements.

Public and private consumption. Think about it?

I've been thinking about learning Arabic for that very reason. Especially since we cannot trust our media or government to tell the truth -- they are too willing to pretend the bland English pronouncements are accurate translations.

I have a nagging feeling that the rich and powerful of the West are so tied into a future based on internationalism that they will openly lie to keep their desired future on track... telling themselves "It's for the good of the world..."

515 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 10:03:09pm

I deleted it, but restored it in order to show what kind of drooling neanderthal freaks we're dealing with here.

516 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 10:06:18pm

re: #514 stevieray

I've been thinking about learning Arabic for that very reason. Especially since we cannot trust our media or government to tell the truth -- they are too willing to pretend the bland English pronouncements are accurate translations.

I have a nagging feeling that the rich and powerful of the West are so tied into a future based on internationalism that they will openly lie to keep their desired future on track... telling themselves "It's for the good of the world..."

Meanwhile, this is a shining, sterling translation window into what is said in Arabic but not in English:

[Link: www.memri.org...]

517 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 10:13:22pm

re: #513 Walter L. Newton

Auster was fired from FrontPage.

On May 4, 2007 Auster was expelled from FrontPage Magazine, because of the controversy over an article he wrote in which he complained that "[e]ach story of black on white rape is reported in isolation, not presented as part of a larger pattern" and that "white women in this country are being targeted by black rapists."

518 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 10:13:40pm

re: #516 Salamantis

They are invaluable. I hit their tip jar from time to time.

519 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 10:14:16pm

And 'andrew2' is also a Serbian apologist:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

520 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 10:17:38pm

That name "Auster" sound familiar. He's come up in here before... I think... but memory fails me now. I wanna say it was in connection with the Ron Paul campaign... not RP himself, but some of his supporters used to quote the guy...

521 Sharmuta  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 10:20:36pm

re: #488 andrew2

I find this comment particularly disturbing in that I am not just the descendant of europeans, but also 2 Native tribes from both my grandmothers. To bring in my Harry Potter analogy again- I'm a mud blood.

Then there are the countless numbers of non-white Americans who stand up for American ideals as well. Are they not welcome in the counter-jihad movement because they're not white? What of those in India and other parts of Asia who have been victimized by the jihadis for centuries? Are the victims of Mumbai less welcome in this movement because they're not white? Disgusting.

522 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 10:33:24pm

re: #487 Salamantis

Because we are not discussing feelings here, but what is or is not empirically ascertainable, and what that determination, or the inability to make such a determination, entails concerning the logical legitimacy of the labeling of others as delusional (that is, whether it is or is not in each case logically justifiable to do so).

What is religion based on, if not 'feelings'? Since you agree that there's no empirical evidence for the existence of God, there must be some source for these beliefs. Could it be the 2000 year-old scribblings of the people of the day? If so, why do they deserve special consideration? Did they invent the wheel?

523 Boogberg  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 10:36:48pm

Holy crap. Looks like I missed some excitement while I was doing laundry. :D

524 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 10:55:29pm

re: #520 stevieray

That name "Auster" sound familiar. He's come up in here before... I think... but memory fails me now. I wanna say it was in connection with the Ron Paul campaign... not RP himself, but some of his supporters used to quote the guy...

I stink at the LGF search-thing, but I can't find anything on Lawernce Auster... just his cousin Paul on this thread.... and the Open thread that preceded it.

525 stevieray  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 10:57:35pm

re: #524 stevieray

Correction: Lawrence is mentioned on that thread and Paul is mentioned on the Open thread.

/gettin' late... can't even read right anymore.

526 Salamantis  Tue, Dec 16, 2008 11:13:44pm

re: #522 Boogberg

What is religion based on, if not 'feelings'? Since you agree that there's no empirical evidence for the existence of God, there must be some source for these beliefs. Could it be the 2000 year-old scribblings of the people of the day? If so, why do they deserve special consideration? Did they invent the wheel?

You'd still have to explain the urge to write the books, and from where the beliefs in them came. And there seem to be both psychological and sociological reasons and sources for that. We quite likely are indeed evolutionarily hardwired for faith:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Notice that whether we are hardwired for faith or not has nothing to do with whether there is or is not in fact a God:

[Link: blog.myspace.com...]

In fact, the belief or disbelief in God and the existence or nonexistence of God are not logically connected. Either of the first two does not constitute evidence either for or against either of the second two. People can logically either believe or disbelieve in a God that either actually exists or does not exist. Belief proves nothing and disproves nothing. Likewise disbelief proves nothing and disproves nothing. No entailment is involved.

This book on the subject is quite good:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

527 cagney  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 12:13:28am

re: #91 Thanos


Cagney, you brought this group up, you are getting mighty defensive early on, which makes me more suspicious...If you think this is the third degree, you are pretty thin skinned for a lizard.

I've had a sleep on this.

This is a right for debate and to ask questions but there is a difference between this and McCarthyite witch-hunts. I've seen this on other threads concerning this where other posters from the Europe and the UK are treated as 'tainted'.

This is nothing to do with being thin skinned but to do with trust. I appreciate I don't post on here often and therefore not widely known but I don't link getting what I say looked into so closely and smeared with innuendo.

I only occasionally post in here with news snippets from the UK and Europe I find in UK MSN and a viewpoint from the UK perspective which I hope can help but as I've noticed that there isn't many of us posted, from this I can see what's the post.

I'm sure the bitching will go on about this post but to be honest I don't care. I've got better things to do with my time. In the future, I'll be posting news items which I feel worthy of interest but as to giving any viewpoints forget about it, you can look at the problems over here with your own myopic vision and find out the hard way because what is happening over here will be happening to you soon enough now that Obama is elected.

528 Boogberg  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 12:44:44am

re: #526 Salamantis

In fact, the belief or disbelief in God and the existence or nonexistence of God are not logically connected. Either of the first two does not constitute evidence either for or against either of the second two. People can logically either believe or disbelieve in a God that either actually exists or does not exist. Belief proves nothing and disproves nothing. Likewise disbelief proves nothing and disproves nothing. No entailment is involved.

Either you believe in fairy tales or you don't. All you've said above is 'Well, there may be a God but then again maybe there isn't'. Come on, man. This is the 21st century! We should be about the betterment of mankind, not coddling idiocy.

529 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 1:03:44am

re: #528 Boogberg

Either you believe in fairy tales or you don't. All you've said above is 'Well, there may be a God but then again maybe there isn't'. Come on, man. This is the 21st century! We should be about the betterment of mankind, not coddling idiocy.

One cannot abandon logic for the sake of the chimera of modernity. And logic entails that while some folks can disbelieve in God, none of them can categorically state that God does not exist. Unlikely, perhaps. Certainly not an anthropomorphic Santa Claus on a golden throne, floating on a glowing cloud. But the extra-empirical existence of some kind of God or other is, by definition, not amenable to empirical disproof. Just like with theists, atheists can believe, but they cannot know. That takes empirical evidence. And empirical evidence is notably lacking. On either side.

But I'll gift you with something that I'm pretty sure you'll enjoy reading, and that will probably cost me some major downdings simply for posting a link to it; it's from Harvard cognitive scientist (and atheist) Steven Pinker:

[Link: pinker.wjh.harvard.edu...]

Bon Appetit! And remember: you owe me some gratuitous updings for the karma grief I will receive...;~)

530 Boogberg  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 1:40:22am

re: #529 Salamantis

Bon Appetit! And remember: you owe me some gratuitous updings for the karma grief I will receive...;~)

The hell you say! How about you slide me about 500 of your karma! :D

I'm still on the fence about this karma business. There's some psychological shit going on with that concept I haven't quite grasped.

531 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 1:42:38am

re: #530 Boogberg

The hell you say! How about you slide me about 500 of your karma! :D

I'm still on the fence about this karma business. There's some psychological shit going on with that concept I haven't quite grasped.

But did you like the essay?

532 Boogberg  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 1:52:37am

re: #531 Salamantis

But did you like the essay?

Yes. And just to bring it full circle, I don't hate religious folks. As long as they behave themselves. That's all I ask.

533 Salamantis  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 2:04:21am

re: #532 Boogberg

Yes. And just to bring it full circle, I don't hate religious folks. As long as they behave themselves. That's all I ask.

I apply that condition to all folks generally.

534 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 5:44:30am

re: #521 Sharmuta

I find this comment particularly disturbing in that I am not just the descendant of europeans, but also 2 Native tribes from both my grandmothers. To bring in my Harry Potter analogy again- I'm a mud blood.

Then there are the countless numbers of non-white Americans who stand up for American ideals as well. Are they not welcome in the counter-jihad movement because they're not white? What of those in India and other parts of Asia who have been victimized by the jihadis for centuries? Are the victims of Mumbai less welcome in this movement because they're not white? Disgusting.

It makes me sick when I see people posting here who seem to think, or at least post, as though this is some sort of whites only club.

535 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 6:44:52am

re: #135 wrenchwench

Some people say that the situation in Europe is desperate, that they have to take drastic measures or all will be lost. I am now starting to read the same kind of panicked lack-of-thinking recommended for the USA.

This guy is one of the contributors at Jihad Watch. And he doesn't stop there.

That is sickening, as it demonstrates the cesspool JihadWatch has become, and frightening, since Hugh Fitzgerald is actually a pretty good political analyst. Can you link to the post you quoted? I cannot find it via Google.

536 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 6:55:59am

Nevermind, found it: [Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]

Man, these people are pathetic. When they are not fascists themselves, they are enablers. Fitzgerald already sounds like a little Adolf Hitler, judging the common people to be unapt to decide their own politics, denying that this happens in any efficient way and lusting for a powerful, strong elite to restore "the way it used to be" and put everybody in their right place.

The logical consequence of this thinking is that the "right place" for the "wrong people" (i.e. those who disagree and won't stay silent) is the concentration camp.

537 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 7:14:26am

re: #362 Sunlight

Isn't it weird that Daniel Pipes, who was one of the only people to talk about terrorism and "choice Islam", used to be so controversial. And he has stuck to his position and now has been passed by by the anti-jihadi crowd, who want to actually ban Islam altogether (thus becoming rabble rousers). Good for Daniel Pipes and I sure hope Geert doesn't join the stampede, even though he must be lonely where he is.

Actually, Pipes is the only one of the vocal critics of the modern islam movement I have read who has pointed out the dangerous consequences of some of the political options before the demographic onslaught hits Europe in a generation or two. Demagogues like Spencer and Fitzgerald will tiptoe around this but Pipes said it clear ("Europe's Stark Options", "Europe or Eurabia?"): This may include genocidal strategies.

Sad as it seems, many readers of Pipes seem to have no qualm about this (search for "deportation" on his site).

538 Zimriel  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 8:55:10am

re: #511 stevieray

That [Western civilisation is the crowning achievement of Judaeo-Christian thought] is a sentiment I have no difficulty defending.

One "difficulty" is that Judaeo-Christian thought, under its own terms as a legislation delivered by God and with the precedent of Moses and Joshua, is better expressed in early Islam.

The parts of Western culture worth defending by humanists are more rooted in the Renaissance; which in turn owed its thought to classical thinkers, particularly Aristotle and Polybius.

Many of the "racialist" writers begin on solid ground, defending individual liberty, free enterprise, the rights of man, etc... but only veer off into the bushes later, after they have roped you into their world.

Since the ground on which Auster, Spenser et al. stand is solidly based on anti-humanist principles, you should be less surprised.

The articles in those publications could be entirely sane -- he may save his end-point arguments for less public forums.

For serious comments from a "palaeocon" standpoint, Steve Sailer is better. His posts never invoke magic. He sometimes jerks his knee and posts something questionable but then, so sometimes does Charles.

539 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 9:11:41am

re: #534 Jimmah

It makes me sick when I see people posting here who seem to think, or at least post, as though this is some sort of whites only club.

Indeed.

540 Zimriel  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 9:16:05am

re: #536 000G

Nevermind, found it: [Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]

Man, these people are pathetic. When they are not fascists themselves, they are enablers. Fitzgerald already sounds like a little Adolf Hitler, judging the common people to be unapt to decide their own politics, denying that this happens in any efficient way and lusting for a powerful, strong elite to restore "the way it used to be" and put everybody in their right place.

I call Godwin!

We're already living under a mandarinate, in which a cadre of university-educated elites "make policy" (i.e. exert power). This was the programme of 19th-century "reform", which was to replace the "spoils" system (i.e. democracy). Just because it's under the trappings of "progress" and doesn't come dressed in snazzy uniforms doesn't make it any more democratic.

The logical consequence of this thinking is that the "right place" for the "wrong people" (i.e. those who disagree and won't stay silent) is the concentration camp.

Not really. The logical consequence of Fitzgerald's thinking is that the current elite gets replaced by an elite more to Fitzgerald's liking. "Those who disagree and won't stay silent" will be subject to campaign-finance restrictions; and to a Fairness Doctrine aimed against what we now call the MSM, and also universities (which already have speech codes, just the "wrong" sort).

541 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 10:39:45am

re: #540 Zimriel

I call Godwin!

I could point out to you passages from Mein Kampf that read exactly like Fitzgerald's filth, if you'd like me to.

We're already living under a mandarinate, in which a cadre of university-educated elites "make policy" (i.e. exert power). This was the programme of 19th-century "reform", which was to replace the "spoils" system (i.e. democracy). Just because it's under the trappings of "progress" and doesn't come dressed in snazzy uniforms doesn't make it any more democratic.

I am sorry, that doesn't make any sense. There's plenty of policies in communities and other levels of government in the US that isn't decided upon by university graduates. And I fail to see what that has to do with the system being democratic or not.

The logical consequence of Fitzgerald's thinking is that the current elite gets replaced by an elite more to Fitzgerald's liking. "Those who disagree and won't stay silent" will be subject to campaign-finance restrictions; and to a Fairness Doctrine aimed against what we now call the MSM, and also universities (which already have speech codes, just the "wrong" sort).

I am sorry to tell you: That's not how it works. Once fascists get to power (usually from within a democratic system) they do not allow for any democratic processes of power-gaining to persist (this is particularly true in the current era of demographics in which bigger and bigger parts of the popular vote that Fitzgerald does not like will decide policies and candidates by the simple virtue of them breeding faster than any other major demographic group). And how do you detect fascists before they get to power? By exposing their proposing fascist means or ends. Abolishing democracy is one of them.

542 Zimriel  Wed, Dec 17, 2008 11:53:42am

re: #541 000G

I am sorry to tell you: That's not how it works. Once fascists get to power (usually from within a democratic system) they do not allow for any democratic processes of power-gaining to persist (this is particularly true in the current era of demographics in which bigger and bigger parts of the popular vote that Fitzgerald does not like will decide policies and candidates by the simple virtue of them breeding faster than any other major demographic group). And how do you detect fascists before they get to power? By exposing their proposing fascist means or ends. Abolishing democracy is one of them.

This whole above paragraph applies equally to any anti-democratic movement. Transnational progressives, for one. Military dictators, for another. Even divine-right monarchists. Do you think all opponents of democracy are fascists? Putting Charles I in the same bin as Benito Mussolini can be done, if you're not willing to think too hard, but labeling the bin "teh facistz!1" is pute buncombe, IMO.

And is your problem with fascism, or with all enemies of democracy? Because if you're against "petty partisan politics" in government, then you too are an enemy of democracy. You can't have one without the other.

"I am sorry."


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