Iraq’s Maliki Government Requested US Air Strikes - Denied

The consequences of George W. Bush’s adventure

Getty Image

A picture taken with a mobile phone shows uniforms reportedly belonging to Iraqi security forces scattered on the road on June 10, 2014, after hundreds of militants from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) launched a major assault on the security forces in Mosul, some 370 kms north from the Iraqi capital Baghdad. Some 500,000 Iraqis have fled their homes in Iraq’s second city Mosul after Jihadist militants took control, fearing increased violence, the International Organization for Migration said. AFP PHOTO/STR (Photo credit should read STR/AFP/Getty Images)

Today we have news that the Maliki government in Iraq requested US airstrikes against the ISIS insurgent army — a request that was denied.

“Iraqi officials at the highest level said they had requested manned and unmanned U.S. airstrikes this year against ISIS camps in the Jazira desert,” said Kenneth M. Pollack, a former C.I.A. analyst and National Security Council official, who is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and who visited Baghdad in early March. ISIS is the acronym for the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, as the militant group is known.

Remember Kenneth M. Pollack? He was the author of The Threatening Storm, a book that played a large part in convincing me in 2003 that the Iraq invasion was the right thing to do, a book I recommended to friends and LGF readers — and a book I now consider one of the most dishonest, insidious pieces of work I’ve ever encountered.

It’s surprising and appalling to see Pollack still being cited as an expert on Iraq, after he was so utterly, disastrously wrong at such an important point in our nation’s history.

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600 comments

1 Mike Lamb  Jun 12, 2014 11:12:00am

Given that we’ve teleported back to 2004…is “Frist!” appropriate?

2 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 11:14:07am

Previous requests were denied but this morning we’re back to all options on the table and possible short term military solution.

3 jaunte  Jun 12, 2014 11:15:24am

Second Amendment, the solution for every problem.

4 Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2014 11:16:26am

This is like pointing to Ollie North lecturing the White House on negotiating with terrorists. Or having Henry Kissinger lecturing us on appearing “weak” to our enemies. One of the enduring legacies of Bush’s clusterfuck of a foreign policy is that the neo-conservative fuckwits that helped orchestrate, run, and ultimately lose it will never be held accountable. If there’s one major item on the list of beefs I have with this administration, it’s not dragging the whole lot of them in irons before Congress and the American people to answer for their actions.

5 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:20:25am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

Previous requests were denied but this morning we’re back to all options on the table and possible short term military solution.

Guess “Shock and Awe” and all that waterboarding didn’t work.

6 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 12, 2014 11:20:29am
7 Kragar  Jun 12, 2014 11:23:18am

re: #3 jaunte

[Embedded image]

Second Amendment, the solution for every problem.

Yes, I’m sure the lack of ready access to automatic weapons is a real issue in the Middle East.

8 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:23:23am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

Previous requests were denied but this morning we’re back to all options on the table and possible short term military solution.

9 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 11:23:57am

re: #6 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Stupid WSJ has their big scoop behind a paywal but from what I can tell they’re already on the ground and getting to work.

10 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 11:24:39am

All we need is one more “surge.” Yeah. That’ll do it.

11 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:24:39am

Chickenhawk War Wish List:

[x] Syria
[x] Iraq
[x] Ukraine
[x] Afghanistan
[x] Iran

12 jaunte  Jun 12, 2014 11:24:41am

re: #7 Kragar

I can see it now at an ISI tactical conference: “We can’t try to take the town, they’ve got rifles!”

13 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:24:55am

re: #10 Charles Johnson

All we need is one more “surge.” Yeah. That’ll do it.

Shock and Awe II

14 makeitstop  Jun 12, 2014 11:25:49am

Clap harder, dammit!!!!

15 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 11:26:02am

re: #10 Charles Johnson

All we need is one more “surge.” Yeah. That’ll do it.

DRONEZ!

Because providing air cover for the Revolutionary Guard is what the US military is for, don’tcha know.

16 klys  Jun 12, 2014 11:26:05am

re: #13 Gus

Shock and Awe II

I’m sure KT can find us another article spelling out exactly what the administration should be doing.

17 Kragar  Jun 12, 2014 11:27:19am

re: #12 jaunte

I can see it now at an ISI tactical conference: “We can’t try to take the town, they’ve got rifles!”

Well, Libertarians think they can hold off the entire US government with a few AR-15s

18 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:27:24am
19 Ace-o-aces  Jun 12, 2014 11:27:30am

Oh, a neo-con recommends a course of action. In that case, doing the opposite of what he wants is almost always the best choice.

20 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 12, 2014 11:27:43am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

Stupid WSJ has their big scoop behind a paywal but from what I can tell they’re already on the ground and getting to work.

It let me in on my iPad…

Iran has deployed Revolutionary Guard forces to fight al Qaeda-inspired militants that have overrun a string of Iraqi cities, and it has helped Iraqi troops win back control of most of Tikrit, Iranian security sources said.

Two battalions of the Quds Forces, the elite overseas branch of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps that have long operated in Iraq, have come to the aid of the besieged, Shiite-dominated government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, they said.

Combined Iraqi-Iranian forces had retaken control across 85% of Tikrit, the birthplace of former dictator Saddam Hussein, according to Iraqi and Iranian security sources.

They were helping guard the capital Baghdad and the two cities of Najaf and Karbala, which have been targeted by the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham, an al Qaeda offshoot whose lightning offensive has thrown Iraq into its worse turmoil since the sectarian fighting that followed the 2003 U.S. invasion of the country.

Tehran has also positioned troops along its border with Iraq and promised to bomb rebel forces if they close within 100 kilometers, or 62 miles, from Iran’s border, according to an Iranian army general.

21 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:27:52am

22 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 11:28:01am

re: #10 Charles Johnson

All we need is one more “surge.” Yeah. That’ll do it.

Third Time’s a Charm!

23 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:28:11am

Note: This is a Photoshopped image.

24 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 11:28:12am

re: #13 Gus

Shock and Awe II

Look at the bright side—when this mess settles out, Baghdad Bob could be minister of information.

25 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 11:28:56am

re: #17 Kragar

Well, Libertarians think they can hold off the entire US government with a few AR-15s

WULVEREEENZ!!!

26 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:29:02am

Come on all of you big strong men, Uncle Sam needs your help again
He’s got himself in a terrible jam, way down yonder in Iraq!

27 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:29:09am

Let’s roll!

28 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 11:29:09am

re: #23 Gus

‘Shopped.

29 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:29:59am

re: #28 Charles Johnson

‘Shopped.

Is it?

30 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:30:07am
31 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 11:30:11am

re: #14 makeitstop

Clap harder, dammit!!!!

A few targeted air strikes and we’ll flush ‘em out, then the ground troops will swoop in and take care of the rest. Easy peasy! What could go wrong?

32 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 11:30:30am

re: #29 Gus

Is it?

Yes, that’s not a real photo.

33 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 11:30:41am
34 Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2014 11:30:58am

Was it Iraq or Afghanistan where there was a big stink about the government allowing each household to keep a single AK-47 or RPG for “defense,” on the argument that it made it more dangerous for our soldiers to keep the peace?

35 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 11:31:14am

re: #20 NJDhockeyfan

It let me in on my iPad…

Thanks! Seems to be working out ok so far. It’s certainly in Iran’s interest but I wonder what terms the Iraqis had to agree to for this help to happen.

36 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:31:19am

re: #32 Charles Johnson

Yes, that’s not a real photo.

Mmm hmm. Thanks.

37 Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2014 11:31:50am

re: #33 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Warp speed, Mr. Sulu.

38 klys  Jun 12, 2014 11:32:10am

re: #37 Targetpractice

Warp speed, Mr. Sulu.

Don’t forget the parking brake.

39 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 11:32:19am

re: #29 Gus

Is it?

You can see the globular clusters on the mustache.

40 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 12, 2014 11:32:34am

Wingnut spotted on FLOTUS Twitter feed

41 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:32:39am
42 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:33:00am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

You can see the globular clusters on the mustache.

Yep. Shopped. Therefore my argument is invalid.

43 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 11:33:31am

re: #33 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

With those big toroids it could be a Bussard ramship, but you don’t put the living quarters in the middle of the fusion reaction….

44 HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2014 11:33:48am

re: #40 Pie-onist Overlord

Wingnut spotted on FLOTUS Twitter feed

[Embedded content]

Classy.

45 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 12, 2014 11:34:28am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

You can see the globular clusters on the mustache.

That’s either a mustache or GWB has a shitload of nasal hair.

46 makeitstop  Jun 12, 2014 11:35:21am

re: #31 Lidane

[Embedded image]

A few targeted air strikes and we’ll flush ‘em out, then the ground troops will swoop in and take care of the rest. Easy peasy! What could go wrong?

They’ll welcome us with flowers and candy! Their children will sing great songs about us!

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

PS: Has the McCain/Huckleberry two headed warmongering creature called a press conference to demand action yet?

47 Romantic Heretic  Jun 12, 2014 11:35:28am

re: #11 Gus

Chickenhawk War Wish List:

[x] Syria
[x] Iraq
[x] Ukraine
[x] Afghanistan
[x] Iran

And here’s the ones they are actually planning on personally fighting in.

[ ] Syria
[ ] Iraq
[ ] Ukraine
[ ] Afghanistan
[ ] Iran

Combat is for peasants. They’re expendable and they are probably takers rather than makers anyway.

48 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 12, 2014 11:35:32am

So far the FLOTUS twitter feed is civilized, probably being moderated.

The last time it was just swarmed with racist haters.

49 jaunte  Jun 12, 2014 11:35:58am

re: #21 Gus

Among the items that ISIS picked up from the fleeing Iraqi security forces — who American spent $20 billion training — are U.S.-made weapons and armored Humvees, along with aircraft from the airport it captured. ISIS fighters also freed all the detainees held in Mosul’s prisons, in a repeat of last year’s assault on Abu Ghraib, upping their numbers yet again. Reports also indicate that ISIS may have managed to loot as much as $400 million from the banks of Mosul, Iraq’s second-largest city. thinkprogress.org

Heckuva job.

50 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:36:43am

I see some people are still stuck in Class of 2004 mode. Bye. I’ve been here since 2008. Tired of the passive-aggressive bullshit. Maybe we can invite Mandy back to LGF. BBL.

51 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 11:37:01am

re:
#40

Stay classy, wingnuts

52 HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2014 11:37:31am

You know though speaking of the first lady’s healthy eating crusade. Aren’t wingnuts the ones that constantly whine about having to pay for other people’s health care? Seems to me if you don’t want to have to do that, you would have a problem with an increasing obesity rate which is what the healthy eating plan is all about trying to fix. Hell, since I’ve gotten in shape, I’ve started to like healthy eating.

53 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 11:37:36am

re: #42 Gus

Yep. Shopped. Therefore my argument is invalid.

C’mon, don’t despair. Fake but accurate is always an option.
/

54 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 11:37:43am

re: #46 makeitstop

They’ll welcome us with flowers and candy! Their children will sing great songs about us!

GREETED AS LIBERATORS! Eleventy!

PS: Has the McCain/Huckleberry two headed warmongering creature called a press conference to demand action yet?

McCain wants Petraeus back or something:

55 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 11:38:16am

re:
#48

were not racists only racesists are in the WH which is ARE house

56 jaunte  Jun 12, 2014 11:38:49am

re: #52 HappyWarrior

You know though speaking of the first lady’s healthy eating crusade. Aren’t wingnuts the ones that constantly whine about having to pay for other people’s health care? Seems to me if you don’t want to have to do that, you would have a problem with an increasing obesity rate which is what the healthy eating plan is all about. Hell, since I’ve gotten in shape, I’ve started to like healthy eating.

It’s not a position they reasoned themselves into.

57 HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2014 11:39:01am

re: #54 Lidane

GREETED AS LIBERATORS! Eleventy!

McCain wants Petraeus back or something:

[Embedded content]

I wish McCain would just retire or enlist and shut up. We can’t always get involved militarily, Senator no matter what you may like. Thanks though Senator for reminding me again that I voted for the right guy in 2008, you and your running mate have never once made me regret it.

58 HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2014 11:39:42am

re: #56 jaunte

It’s not a position they reasoned themselves into.

Yeah true. Just felt like pointing out the hypocrisy of complaining about other people’s medical bills while they are content with a high obesity rate.

59 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:39:49am

re: #53 Killgore Trout

C’mon, don’t despair. Fake but accurate is always an option.
/

I edited the fucking comment to say it’s Photoshopped.

60 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 11:40:09am

re: #50 Gus

I see some people are still stuck in Class of 2004 mode. Bye. I’ve been here since 2008. Tired of the passive-aggressive bullshit. Maybe we can invite Mandy back to LGF. BBL.

Er, what? I must be missing something.

61 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 11:40:42am

re: #60 Charles Johnson

Er, what? I must be missing something.

Check your DMs on Twitter.

62 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 11:40:51am

An interesting possibility: If the Iranians are successful US airstrikes won’t be needed. Not sure how I feel about Iran taking control of Iraq’s stability but it could work.

63 Timothy Watson  Jun 12, 2014 11:40:53am

re: #11 Gus

Chickenhawk War Wish List:

[x] Syria
[x] Iraq
[x] Ukraine
[x] Afghanistan
[x] Iran

Don’t forget Nigeria.

64 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 11:41:06am

Mister President, sir, DO Something about chaos Iraq that U caused buy being appeaser!!!1

President orders limited air strikes

WAGE the DOGEE, WAGTHEDOG!!! Distracting from Benghazi Bergdahl!!1 Congress didnt approve validate!!1

65 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 11:41:44am

re: #59 Gus

I edited the fucking comment to say it’s Photoshopped.

Seriously, it’s not a big deal. These things happen, don’t let it get to you.

66 HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2014 11:42:14am

re: #64 Bulworth

Mister President, sir, DO Something about chaos Iraq that U caused buy being appeaser!!!1

President orders limited air strikes

WAGE the DOGEE, WAGTHEDOG!!! Distracting from Benghazi Bergdahl!!1 Congress didnt approve validate!!1

That’s exactly what the trio of hacks or as you may know them: Graham, McCain, and Ayoette will do.

67 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 11:42:17am

re: #33 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Oh hell YEAH.

68 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 11:42:47am

re: #40 Pie-onist Overlord

On what planet is FLOTUS overweight? It sure as shit isn’t this one.

69 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 11:43:14am

re: #63 Timothy Watson

Don’t forget Nigeria.

and Syria and Pakistan and Lybia. Venezuela sadly not included but that could change.

70 CarolJ  Jun 12, 2014 11:43:46am

re: #62 Killgore Trout

I’m no fan of Iran either, but the Iranians aren’t on a crusade to destabilize the Middle East either. And I suspect their control would be a lot more liberal than the jihadists, and they probably would create enough stability to allow some refugees to actually come back.

71 klys  Jun 12, 2014 11:43:56am

re: #68 Lidane

On what planet is FLOTUS overweight? It sure as shit isn’t this one.

Although it sure points to the issues with body image in America, that if one is not a twig one is “overweight.”

72 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 11:45:02am

re:
#68

On planet wingnut

73 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 11:46:41am

re: #70 CarolJ

I’m no fan of Iran either, but the Iranians aren’t on a crusade to destabilize the Middle East either. And I suspect their control would be a lot more liberal than the jihadists, and they probably would create enough stability to allow some refugees to actually come back.

Possibly but it would make Assad’s removal a lot more difficult. It wold also worry the Saudis, UAE, Bahrain and a lot of other folks in the Gulf. But I suppose the lesson to be learned is that someone else should have stepped up before the Iranians. Saudis could have done it but I’m not sure it was even considered.

74 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 12, 2014 11:46:44am

It’s really amazing that people who have been consistnetly wrong about Iraq—wrong about WMDs, wrong about the ease of occupation, and wrong about how easy it’d be to democratize Iraq—still keep giving their opinion as though they know anything about it.

I mean, we had Killgore a couple of weeks ago happily talking about the stable government of Iraq that’s in no danger of being overthrown, and it’s not going to slow him down a bit. That he was completely totally, horrifically wrong won’t cause him a single moment’s pause in his pontification.

All the people who were warned about the dangers of deposing Saddam, in particular that it could lead to a theocratic Iraq, they’re not apologizing for having been so fucking wrong and examining how they go there; they’re just pontificating as usual, and nobody’s calling them on it, either. Killgore isn’t bother to take a moment to wonder why he thought Iraq was stable, either. Not a single second will be spent mulling over how he managed to make such a completely erroneous assessment, it’s just on to the next thing.

75 piratedan  Jun 12, 2014 11:46:57am

re: #30 Gus

that motto should be, “we ate chicken for lunch, but it was spicy chicken……”

76 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 11:47:28am

re: #11 Gus

Chickenhawk War Wish List:

[x] Syria
[x] Iraq
[x] Ukraine
[x] Afghanistan
[x] Iran

[x] D.C.

77 lawhawk  Jun 12, 2014 11:48:20am

Take action now. Or when? Or where? By who?

Who, what, when, where, why, and how (you know, basic questions). Answer those questions first before saying the US should be intervening.

The US could have still been in Iraq had Maliki signed off on a SOFA deal with the US that gave US soldiers immunity; the Obama Administration refused to budge (rightly so) on this detail, so we set a date by which our troops would be out and that the Iraqis would be doing their own security. We spent billions on training, tactics, and materials for the Iraqi military, and all the Iraqi government has to show for that effort now is a military that drops its drawers the moment that a couple hundred thugs decide to get antsy and want to raise a ruckus. Once they saw how easy it was to get 30,000 troops to flee without more than firing a few shots, they’ve decided that they’ll drive all the way to Baghdad. And to their surprise, they’re doing so without much effort or resistance.

Part of that is due to the fact that the military is showing no love for the current Iraqi government and part of it is because the Iraqi military just isn’t that good. There might be some good units and some good soldiers, but they’re not the ones in this fight. There’s no one in the Iraqi government giving the military a reason to fight and take a stand.

So what does the US do? We sit back and watch as the Iraqi government takes responsibility for its failures and that ISIS (not the Archer kind) threatens anarchy and theocracy on Northern Iraq in all the usual places (from Tikrit to Mosul to Samarra).

Airstrikes by the US wont do the trick; though the Iraqis doing just that might be what is needed. The Iraqis have to take up the fight instead of letting the ISIS thugs overrun what little they’ve managed to rebuild since the war.

78 CarolJ  Jun 12, 2014 11:48:59am

To all of the warmongers in Congress: we spent a trillion badly needed dollars on that place. I can see the cost everyday: bridges that were okay at the beginning of the decade crumbling, an overburdened VA system with another trillion that we will have to spend on the wounded, no money for things that would help us keep up with Europe like job training.

We may spend another 20 years digging ourselves out of Baby Bush’s “excellent adventure” in remaking the Middle East in a right-wing Republican fantasy world.

79 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 12, 2014 11:49:14am

re: #73 Killgore Trout

But I suppose the lesson to be learned is that someone else should have stepped up before the Iranians. Saudis could have done it but I’m not sure it was even considered.

See? Perfect example. The “Lesson” Killgore learned from the US invasion of Iraq and the destabilization of the government afterwards is ‘someone else should have stepped up’. Not “The Iraq War was an enormous mistake”, but “Do it again.”

80 bubba zanetti  Jun 12, 2014 11:49:35am

re: #68 Lidane

On what planet is FLOTUS overweight? It sure as shit isn’t this one.

BCUZ JAY Z WROTE A RAP SONG ABOUT BIG BUTTS ADN HE IS THE VOICE OF THE GENRATION. CHECKMATE LIBTARD!

81 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 11:50:22am

Enough of our brave men and women died for lies and deception. And now this mess that everyone with half a functioning brain could predict. Enough already.

82 HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2014 11:50:44am

re: #68 Lidane

On what planet is FLOTUS overweight? It sure as shit isn’t this one.

The same planet where guys like Rush and co are fine physical specimens?

83 blueraven  Jun 12, 2014 11:51:01am

re: #69 Killgore Trout

and Syria and Pakistan and Lybia. Venezuela sadly not included but that could change.

Not that it matters, it happens all the time but it is Libya, not Lybia.
Seriously, not a big deal.

84 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 11:51:15am

re: #73 Killgore Trout

Possibly but it would make Assad’s removal a lot more difficult. It wold also worry the Saudis, UAE, Bahrain and a lot of other folks in the Gulf. But I suppose the lesson to be learned is that someone else should have stepped up before the Iranians. Saudis could have done it but I’m not sure it was even considered.

That’s your lesson? You’ve gotta be shitting us.

85 CarolJ  Jun 12, 2014 11:52:46am

(Saudis, UAE, Bahrain and a lot of other folks in the Gulf. )

Right now, they would rather deal with a stable Iran than those crazies. They make not like the takeover, but at least Iran is rational.

86 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 11:52:53am

re: #74 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It’s really amazing that people who have been consistnetly wrong about Iraq—wrong about WMDs, wrong about the ease of occupation, and wrong about how easy it’d be to democratize Iraq—still keep giving their opinion as though they know anything about it.

I mean, we had Killgore a couple of weeks ago happily talking about the stable government of Iraq that’s in no danger of being overthrown, and it’s not going to slow him down a bit. That he was completely totally, horrifically wrong won’t cause him a single moment’s pause in his pontification.

All the people who were warned about the dangers of deposing Saddam, in particular that it could lead to a theocratic Iraq, they’re not apologizing for having been so fucking wrong and examining how they go there; they’re just pontificating as usual, and nobody’s calling them on it, either. Killgore isn’t bother to take a moment to wonder why he thought Iraq was stable, either. Not a single second will be spent mulling over how he managed to make such a completely erroneous assessment, it’s just on to the next thing.

It’s of a piece with the “Economics Experts” who have been predicting hyperinflation ‘just around the corner!’ for the last 6 years and who laughed off the idea of a recession in 2008 still being taken seriously in economic discussions, or the AGW deniers who said they’d prove the rise in temps is all due to weather station siting until their audit proved it wasn’t, or who were sure that Richard Muller’s audit of the climate data would prove CRU, NASA, and NOAA were wrong until it proved they were right.

None of them changed their positions in the face of total failure of their predictions because they’re not subject to objective verification, and they have no shame.

87 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 11:56:53am

re: #84 GlutenFreeJesus

That’s your lesson? You’ve gotta be shitting us.

“So, what did we learn? I guess we learned not to do THAT again, though I’m fucked if I know what it was we did.”

88 Zamb  Jun 12, 2014 11:58:15am

re: #68 Lidane

The one where the primary food group is methamphetamine.

89 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 12, 2014 11:59:44am

re: #87 GeneJockey

“So, what did we learn? I guess we learned not to do THAT again, though I’m fucked if I know what it was we did.”

Except Killgore didn’t even learn that. He actually learned ‘Do that again’.

But man, that moment in the movie really makes the whole thing come together.

Image: vlcsnap-2012-12-12-21h33m53s223.png

90 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 12:01:58pm

re: #68 Lidane

On what planet is FLOTUS overweight? It sure as shit isn’t this one.

The crazy thing is that I can tell you FOR SURE that a lot of the guys calling her ‘Moochelle’ overweight if not outright obese.

91 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 12:02:19pm

Looking past the GOP/Neocon angle, I’m curious why we could/did not help with airstrikes on the camps when requested? Even if just cruise missiles or drones.

92 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 12:02:42pm

re:
#87

“You’re from that gym with that moranic woman.”

“She’s not a moran.”

“I know full well what you are. You’re in a LEAGUE of morans that I’ve fighting my whole fcking life.”

93 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 12:02:51pm

re: #89 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Except Killgore didn’t even learn that. He actually learned ‘Do that again’.

But man, that moment in the movie really makes the whole thing come together.

Image: vlcsnap-2012-12-12-21h33m53s223.png

And there’s usually a J.K Simmons clip for every situation. Think, ‘Lemons’.

94 ObserverArt  Jun 12, 2014 12:03:00pm

re: #5 Gus

Guess “Shock and Awe” and all that waterboarding didn’t work.

Shock and awe turned into Shuck and Jive.

And as far as waterboarding working, we still need the experts like Sean Hannity to let us know more about that…and everyone has been waiting a long, long time.

95 CarolJ  Jun 12, 2014 12:03:23pm

Once again, it makes me thankful that McCain and Romney both lost. Obama is not easily moved to gestures to please the warmongers. He’s the rarest of all-A Chief Executive secure enough in his skin to not need to play War Hero. So there may be airstrikes if he thinks it’s in the interest of World stability, but that’s it.

Remember when those same warmongers were crying about how Obama was “leading from behind” in Libya? He had an international coalition behind him that was doing the ground work while the United States did what it does best-communications and logistics. He won that war militarily without losing a single soldier.

Bergdahl? Alive and free without starting another war with the Taliban or losing a single Special Forces soldier in the rescue.

Unlike a lot of Presidents we all could name, he’s been sparing and careful with our military resources and people, only using them when that’s the only real option. And I’m glad for it.

96 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 12:04:09pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

But I suppose the lesson to be learned is that someone else should have stepped up before the Iranians.

No, the lesson is that we shouldn’t have fucking invaded in the first place.

None of what is happening in Iraq now is unexpected. The war hawks were warned a decade ago that this shit would happen, but none of them fucking listened. They just wanted war, and were willing to let Dubya solve his Daddy issues through invading another country. Now we’re here.

97 blueraven  Jun 12, 2014 12:04:37pm

re: #77 lawhawk

Take action now. Or when? Or where? By who?

Who, what, when, where, why, and how (you know, basic questions). Answer those questions first before saying the US should be intervening.

The US could have still been in Iraq had Maliki signed off on a SOFA deal with the US that gave US soldiers immunity; the Obama Administration refused to budge (rightly so) on this detail, so we set a date by which our troops would be out and that the Iraqis would be doing their own security. We spent billions on training, tactics, and materials for the Iraqi military, and all the Iraqi government has to show for that effort now is a military that drops its drawers the moment that a couple hundred thugs decide to get antsy and want to raise a ruckus. Once they saw how easy it was to get 30,000 troops to flee without more than firing a few shots, they’ve decided that they’ll drive all the way to Baghdad. And to their surprise, they’re doing so without much effort or resistance.

Part of that is due to the fact that the military is showing no love for the current Iraqi government and part of it is because the Iraqi military just isn’t that good. There might be some good units and some good soldiers, but they’re not the ones in this fight. There’s no one in the Iraqi government giving the military a reason to fight and take a stand.

So what does the US do? We sit back and watch as the Iraqi government takes responsibility for its failures and that ISIS (not the Archer kind) threatens anarchy and theocracy on Northern Iraq in all the usual places (from Tikrit to Mosul to Samarra).

Airstrikes by the US wont do the trick; though the Iraqis doing just that might be what is needed. The Iraqis have to take up the fight instead of letting the ISIS thugs overrun what little they’ve managed to rebuild since the war.

Some want us to go in and spend more blood and treasure in Iraq in response to the actions of a failed, corrupt, foreign government, but hey…not one penny for Detroit.

Something is wrong here.

98 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 12:05:11pm

re: #95 CarolJ

Once again, it makes me thankful that McCain and Romney both lost. Obama is not easily moved to gestures to please the warmongers. He’s the rarest of all-A Chief Executive secure enough in his skin to not need to play War Hero. So there may be airstrikes if he thinks it’s in the interest of World stability, but that’s it.

Remember when those same warmongers were crying about how Obama was “leading from behind” in Libya? He had an international coalition behind him that was doing the ground work while the United States did what it does best-communications and logistics. He won that war militarily without losing a single soldier.

Bergdahl? Alive and free without starting another war with the Taliban or losing a single Special Forces soldier in the rescue.

Unlike a lot of Presidents we all could name, he’s been sparing and careful with our military resources and people, only using them when that’s the only real option. And I’m glad for it.

You know the problem? Quiet, bloodless success is not as satisfying for some as noisy, bloody failure.

99 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 12:06:38pm

re: #91 Rightwingconspirator

Looking past the GOP/Neocon angle, I’m curious why we could/did not help with airstrikes on the camps when requested? Even if just cruise missiles or drones.

There has been some tension between Obama and Maliki similar to the problems with Karzai. I won;t defend everything in this article but it’s a fair opinion: If jihadists control Iraq, blame Nouri al-Maliki, not the United States.

100 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 12, 2014 12:06:45pm

If the #LunchWithFLOTUS thread is being moderated to keep out the racist haters, why can’t they keep out the spammers?

101 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Jun 12, 2014 12:07:02pm

re: #96 Lidane

I fully expect the dipshit press to resurrect Paul Bremer as an “expert on Iraq” and get his take on What Should Be Done.

102 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 12:08:06pm

re: #96 Lidane

No, the lesson is that we shouldn’t have fucking invaded in the first place.

None of what is happening in Iraq now is unexpected. The war hawks were warned a decade ago that this shit would happen, but none of them fucking listened. They just wanted war, and were willing to let Dubya solve his Daddy issues through invading another country. Now we’re here.

And if you expressed doubt that the US could knock off Saddam and establish a stable pluralistic Western-style democracy in a year and make Iraq a permanent, firm ally in the GWOT, you were helping the terrorists.

103 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 12:09:09pm
104 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 12, 2014 12:09:10pm
105 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 12:09:28pm
106 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 12:10:57pm

I don’t care very much whose face is on a $20 bill, but to just brush off Gen. Ulysses S. Grant as “not indispensable to US history” is completely fucking nuts.

107 blueraven  Jun 12, 2014 12:11:09pm

re: #91 Rightwingconspirator

Looking past the GOP/Neocon angle, I’m curious why we could/did not help with airstrikes on the camps when requested? Even if just cruise missiles or drones.

With no boots on the ground (intel) that is a dangerous proposition.

108 HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2014 12:12:11pm

I like this Grant, he wins. Said by a man who knew Grant better than Friedersdorf.

109 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 12, 2014 12:12:18pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

There has been some tension between Obama and Maliki similar to the problems with Karzai. I won;t defend everything in this article but it’s a fair opinion: If jihadists control Iraq, blame Nouri al-Maliki, not the United States.

Boy, I bet you wish you’d read that article before you said “Sure, stuff blows up sometimes, there’s a bit of ethnic/religious tension but the government is stable and not in danger of collapsing or being overthrown.” Or really, any article on Iraq and the Sunni-Shi’ite conflicts post-invasion.

110 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 12:12:32pm

Arab spring took out enough long time dictators over there I’m not at all sure Saddam or his kids would be in charge or even alive. Heck we might well have helped that along just like Libya.

111 CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2014 12:13:58pm

Meanwhile a Christian Iraqi immigrant is violently attacked in her home…

Woman attacked, target of violent hate crime

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (KRQE) - Albuquerque Police are investigating a violent hate crime. Investigators say a man pushed his way into a home, attacked a woman and tore up her family’s U.S. citizenship papers, all because he thought she was Muslim. […]

“The irony is the individual thought the family was Muslim, and they’re actually refugees from Iraq who are Catholic,” explained officer Simon Drobik, of the Albuquerque Police Department. […]

The family told News 13 they didn’t feel safe in Iraq. They were told they’d find a better life in the United States. Now bruised in more ways than one, Jaber and her family said they no longer feel safe here, like someone is watching them. And they hope police can catch the man responsible. […]

The suspect is described as tall white male with blue eyes and medium build. He was wearing a black mask, blue gloves, a yellow shirt and blue jeans.

America, fuck yeah! It’s only for Real Americans™ //

112 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 12:14:43pm

re: #107 blueraven

With no boots on the ground (intel) that is a dangerous proposition.

Well dangerous either way then? I suppose targeting spotters would be boots on the ground. But not in the way that’s usually meant. What’s dangerous about carrying out airstrikes for the Iraqi government against extremist rebels?

113 CarolJ  Jun 12, 2014 12:15:47pm

re: #110 Rightwingconspirator

But without the invasion, there might have been a chance for someone to step up-whoever won would have at least one faction behind him to create a basis for government. And Saddam might have survived anyway-he was canny enough to allow some basic security and prosperity for his people,.

114 lawhawk  Jun 12, 2014 12:16:04pm

re: #107 blueraven

Even with intel on the ground and other intel efforts, the US wants Iraq to stand on its own, and coming in with airstrikes or UAVs every time a couple hundred thugs start trouble, then you’ve got a mess that you’ll never get out of.

Drawing the line means forcing the Iraqi government to stand up for itself, even if it means the potential for it to fall apart. I don’t think the Iraqi government quite realizes what they’ve done by not pushing the military to act, or they have, and they’ve run out of options since they don’t have the kind of military they thought they had (or even what we thought they had after spending billions on their training).

Airstrikes here and there probably wont change things, especially if the Iraqi military isn’t going to fight on the ground to retake those areas. Heck, even if the Iraqi air force took action, I’m not sure the Iraqi military would act. It’s on the military to do something, and it looks like they’ve gone and disappeared.

115 HappyWarrior  Jun 12, 2014 12:16:31pm

re: #111 CuriousLurker

Meanwhile a Christian Iraqi immigrant is violently attacked in her home…

America, fuck yeah! It’s only for Real AmericansTM //

That’s really sad. They flee Iraq because of the violence and then they get attacked here. What the hell is wrong with people. Thanks Pam, Spencer, and company for inspiring a hatred campaign against the “other” you fucking pieces of shit. It’s just a good thing this woman was not killed by this psycho fuck.

116 gwangung  Jun 12, 2014 12:18:41pm

re: #115 HappyWarrior

That’s really sad. They flee Iraq because of the violence and then they get attacked here. What the hell is wrong with people. Thanks Pam, Spencer, and company for inspiring a hatred campaign against the “other” you fucking pieces of shit. It’s just a good thing this woman was not killed by this psycho fuck.

I bet she thought she WOULD be.

And by definition, that’s terrorism.

117 jaunte  Jun 12, 2014 12:18:45pm

re: #111 CuriousLurker

The suspect ransacked the family’s home, stole jewelry and money. He also found the family’s citizenship documents in a back room and ripped them to pieces in front of Jaber.

I wonder if he was puzzled by the crucifix.

118 ObserverArt  Jun 12, 2014 12:20:32pm

re: #79 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

See? Perfect example. The “Lesson” Killgore learned from the US invasion of Iraq and the destabilization of the government afterwards is ‘someone else should have stepped up’. Not “The Iraq War was an enormous mistake”, but “Do it again.”

Good response, but to make it even betterer you need to add some ‘doubt phrases’ like “maybe someone else should have stepped up”…and…”The Iraq War was possibly an enormous mistake” and then close with “I wonder if we should do it again?”

It’s all about ambiguity. You can never be wrong being ambiguous. But I won’t stand by this, I could be wrong, but maybe not. We shall see.

/

119 freetoken  Jun 12, 2014 12:21:06pm

Going off topic… both WaPo and Newsweek pick up on Gov. Goodhair’s latest exercises in rebranding:

Rick Perry Thinks Homosexuality Is A Lot Like Alcoholism

Rick Perry’s gay fixation

The Rinsed One probably needs to send out a memo that instructs candidates that besides not talking about rape and women, that alcoholism and homosexuality is off the menu too.

120 calochortus  Jun 12, 2014 12:23:18pm

re: #86 GeneJockey

It’s of a piece with the “Economics Experts” who have been predicting hyperinflation ‘just around the corner!’ for the last 6 years and who laughed off the idea of a recession in 2008 still being taken seriously in economic discussions, or the AGW deniers who said they’d prove the rise in temps is all due to weather station siting until their audit proved it wasn’t, or who were sure that Richard Muller’s audit of the climate data would prove CRU, NASA, and NOAA were wrong until it proved they were right.

None of them changed their positions in the face of total failure of their predictions because they’re not subject to objective verification, and they have no shame.

One of my favorite Barbara Tuchman quotes (with reference to Philip II of Spain)

“No experience of the failure of his policy could shake his belief in its essential excellence.”

I think it has broader application.

121 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 12:23:38pm

re: #112 Rightwingconspirator

Well dangerous either way then? I suppose targeting spotters would be boots on the ground. But not in the way that’s usually meant. What’s dangerous about carrying out airstrikes for the Iraqi government against extremist rebels?

What’s dangerous about it? For who exactly are you asking?

The whole point… this would not be happening had we not wrongfully invaded in 2003.

122 blueraven  Jun 12, 2014 12:23:44pm

re: #112 Rightwingconspirator

Well dangerous either way then? I suppose targeting spotters would be boots on the ground. But not in the way that’s usually meant. What’s dangerous about carrying out airstrikes for the Iraqi government against extremist rebels?

You don’t think they are above placing innocents in their midst, do you?

123 Amory Blaine  Jun 12, 2014 12:25:46pm

I feel terrible for the poor people of Iraq.

124 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 12:27:06pm

re:
#123

Yeah, this

125 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 12:27:07pm

re: #121 GlutenFreeJesus

What’s dangerous about it? For who exactly are you asking?

The whole point… this would not be happening had we not wrongfully invaded in 2003.

Blaming Bush might feel good but it doesn’t give us any guidance how to deal with he present problem or what Obama’s best decision would be.

126 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 12:27:38pm

Members of the Senate Armed Services Committee, of which McCain is the ranking member, were given a classified briefing this afternoon from military and intelligence officials, keeping lawmakers apprised of the latest developments in the Iraqi crisis.

McCain left the closed-door briefing after only a matter of minutes, telling reporters the security situation in Iraq “is the greatest threat since the Cold War.” [emphasis added]

If it’s the great threat to security in a generation, then maybe McCain should have stuck around for the rest of the classified briefing, instead of bolting and heading for the cameras?

127 Zamb  Jun 12, 2014 12:28:33pm

re: #106 Charles Johnson

As a native it is a big fucking deal getting rid of Jackson on the $20

128 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 12:31:39pm

re: #127 Zamb

As a native it is a big fucking deal getting rid of Jackson on the $20

My youngest brother is named for him because ‘he was the first Democrat’. Maybe Mom should have researched a little deeper.

129 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 12:32:03pm

re:
#126

Just the same ole same ole BS from the WH and how come the WH never informs Congress??!?!?!?

130 bratwurst  Jun 12, 2014 12:32:16pm
131 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 12:32:34pm
132 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 12:33:07pm
133 Rocky-in-Connecticut  Jun 12, 2014 12:33:48pm

get out, stay out.

I am not naive enough to believe we won’t have international and human rights conditions problems with the new Iraq regional carve-up, but I think problems will only be worse if we try and “help” the situation with more military, more drones, more CIA Special Forces involvement, etc etc.

What is actually happening is something I’ve known all along with Bush jr’s silly and completely foolish adventuring- the US was a catalyst for the erasing of borders and redrawing of a new map based on religious and tribal lines. There is no more Iraq as of this week. It simply doesn’t exist.

Iran is busy preparing to take the eastern part of the country as a buffer/stooge state, the Kurds will carve out the north, Syria will create a buffer to the northwest inside the area, and a militant Sunni Islamic chaotic hellhole will develop in the majority of the west.

Repeat, there is no more Iraq. It doesn’t exist 10 years later after Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld’s childish, reality-bereft view of the world and actions. Stay out of it.

134 blueraven  Jun 12, 2014 12:34:48pm

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Blaming Bush might feel good but it doesn’t give us any guidance how to deal with he present problem or what Obama’s best decision would be.

It is not a matter of feeling good. It is fact. When this President is getting so much shit from the likes of John McCain and the usual suspects, who have gotten everything totally wrong…it is instructive to remember how and why we got here.

Obama can damn well take his time on this.

135 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 12:35:31pm
136 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 12:35:33pm

re: #114 lawhawk

Iraqi Air Force? What Iraqi Air force?

Jun 05, 2014 16:00 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff
Iraq’s purchase of armed scout helicopters was significant, because an Air Force that had once been one of the strongest in the region is currently reduced to few dozen planes and helicopters, with no front-line fighters, or attack helicopters with precision munitions. The ARH order would be a significant step forward in aerial combat power, though they will be employed in the internal anti-terrorist battle rather than acting to secure Iraq’s sovereignty against neighboring countries.

That level of security requires the ability to control the air over one’s own country, which is why the USAF has always planned to remain in Iraq for a number of years as a guarantor. The question that remains is how long they will be able to remain as a guarantor, and when Iraq will have an air force that can realistically assume even minimum-level air policing duties.

Iraq is slowly building its fighter force from the ground up. Cessna light planes serve as primary trainers, and some of the larger Cessna 208B Caravans have been modified to perform surveillance or even combat strike roles. T-6A Texan II turboprops serve for the next level of fighter training. After that, Iraq’s pilots have to go to the USA, to train on supersonic T-38 Talons. That will change when Iraq receives its own advanced jet trainers in 2015, and their selection of the L-159 ensures that these jet trainers will also end up serving a secondary combat role. “Iraq’s New Trainers: The Czech Is On The Way” has more coverage of Iraq’s choices.

137 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 12:35:46pm

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Blaming Bush might feel good but it doesn’t give us any guidance how to deal with he present problem or what Obama’s best decision would be.

How about we put the Bush lot on trial. How’s that for guidance?

Obama’s best decision is to do exactly what he’s doing. Nothing. Not our problem anymore. Enough of our good men and women have died for lies and deceit. No more.

138 Zamb  Jun 12, 2014 12:35:49pm

re: #131 Charles Johnson

The Grant thing is probably to placate white southerners, since every story needs a both sides. At least that’s my best guess.

139 freetoken  Jun 12, 2014 12:35:58pm

Even farther off topic, though maybe not, and getting back to one of the topics that stirs in my aging brain as an unsolved issue, is the Genetics-As-Destiny (GaD) paradigm that gets kicked around the cocktail parties.

Two blog entries today do battle with the idea of GaD, in their own way:

Does Nature Need to be Nurtured?

The Problems of the GRE

These topics are fertile grounds for the “race realists” and paleocons.

To me these types of social science discoveries ought to be calls for much greater study and insight into what makes us who we are - why we do what we do.

I find it frustrating that may who like to think of themselves as progressives don’t really have a good grasp on the nuances of these issues and why they are to so sticky, so to speak, in our cultural discussions.

At least in us humans, there is a culture-epigenetic-genetic dance going on that is making us who we are.

One reason this isn’t totally off topic is because there are those who might believe (even if stated obliquely) that, for example, Iraqis (err.., Muslims, err…, Arabs, …) are doomed to this kind of violence we are seeing this week.

Stereotypes and suppositions about others are always around us, and being able to determine reality from superstition is the calling of what we today call science.

Is Iraq destined to be like what it is today?

140 S'latch  Jun 12, 2014 12:37:22pm

I thought Maliki didn’t want our help.

141 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 12:38:42pm

re: #126 Lidane

Let’s remember, McCain is supposed to be one of the better Republicans.

Instead, he’s just a shit stain.

142 b.d.  Jun 12, 2014 12:39:23pm

REAGAN’S PICTURE SHOULD BE ON THE $50!!! AND THE $20!!!

143 Ed E. Lishus  Jun 12, 2014 12:39:43pm

Blame Bush for this? You’re damned right I do.

Oh and just so we’re clear, I’m not gloating, because there’s nothing to gloat about. The Iraqi people have to live through a crap situation regardless of how the U.S. responds.

145 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 12:39:44pm

providencejournal.com

“I never understood the original push for war in Iraq, never understood the logic of regime change,” Chafee said. “These neocons [neo-conservatives] all through the ’90s were talking the importance of regime change in Iraq and toppling Saddam Hussein, the strongman. I just didn’t understand stirring up the hornets’ nest that is the Middle East. It just never made any sense to me, and now we’re seeing some of the ramifications of having deviated from our Cold War containment strategy.”

(As a Republican U.S. senator, Chafee was famously the only member of his party to vote against the invasion of Iraq. He later quit the Republican Party to become an independent, and is now a Democrat.)

146 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 12:41:40pm

re: #122 blueraven

Well I thought you meant dangerous for us. But anyway-No more or less than in the tribal lands of Pakistan. That was a risk for the French in Libya, worked out fine. It’s a daily risk for us now in Afghanistan. Didn’t stop the program.

I don’t see why anger about the past invasion should change what happens next policy wise. It’s all about the reality on the ground and consequences. Not recriminations. That’s for discussion not policy. IMHO. If we are okay with these guys being in charge of huge swaths of Iraq okay. But how do you think that helps Iraq?

147 ObserverArt  Jun 12, 2014 12:42:53pm

re: #140 S’latch

I thought Maliki didn’t want our help.

He didn’t want it until he needed it.

148 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 12:42:53pm

re: #143 Ed E. Lishus

Blame Bush for this? You’re damned right I do.

Oh and just so we’re clear, I’m not gloating, because there’s nothing to gloat about. The Iraqi people have to live through a crap situation regardless of how the U.S. responds.

KT just can’t seem to comprehend that blaming Bush and the neocons does not = gloating.

“Oh, just move on, will ya!” is all he ever says. Not once has he even fathomed the thought that “Oops… maybe I was wrong to support Jr.’s war for daddy/oil/Halliburton etc.”.

I hope Iraq becomes truly stable on her own someday. Preferably before any of those old warmongering neocon coots keel over, so Iraq can put them on trial for destroying their country.

149 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 12:43:47pm

re: #145 GlutenFreeJesus

What President first signed off on Iraqi regime change as US policy? Or is this about the invasion and not regime change?

150 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 12:43:59pm

re: #135 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I blame the Ottomans!

151 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 12:44:04pm

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Blaming Bush might feel good but it doesn’t give us any guidance how to deal with he present problem or what Obama’s best decision would be.

Bullshit.

152 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 12:44:06pm

re: #141 EPR-radar

Let’s remember, McCain is supposed to be one of the better Republicans.

Instead, he’s just a shit stain.

How does that disqualify him from being one of the better Republicans?

153 makeitstop  Jun 12, 2014 12:44:07pm

And for the record…

Fuck this magic moratorium on ‘Blaming Bush.’ It’s the goddamned fallback position of every wingnut on Facebook, and you can’t even type that bastard’s name without someone accusing you of ‘blaming Bush.’

I’ve found, in my long time on this planet, that if someone does something deserving of blame, you can damn well blame them.

Bush was a fuckup. An arrogant, party-first, vindictive little fuckup, at that. I will blame him for this clusterfuck any time I please, because he deserves that blame.

/rant

154 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 12:45:14pm

re: #149 Rightwingconspirator

What President first signed off on Iraqi regime change as US policy? Or is this about the invasion and not regime change?

The 2003 invasion. Signing off on regime change, and not invading didn’t cause any of this. Nobody died when Clinton signed that paper.

155 Ed E. Lishus  Jun 12, 2014 12:45:23pm

re: #149 Rightwingconspirator

Oh goody gumdrops. Are we in freaking 2004-2005 again?!

156 Shiplord Kirel  Jun 12, 2014 12:46:32pm

re: #152 Decatur Deb

How does that disqualify him from being one of the better Republicans?

The leper with the most fingers…..

157 blueraven  Jun 12, 2014 12:46:33pm

re: #146 Rightwingconspirator

Well I thought you meant dangerous for us. But anyway-No more or less than in the tribal lands of Pakistan. That was a risk for the French in Libya, worked out fine. It’s a daily risk for us now in Afghanistan. Didn’t stop the program.

I don’t see why anger about the past invasion should change what happens next policy wise. It’s all about the reality on the ground and consequences. Not recriminations. That’s for discussion not policy. IMHO. If we are okay with these guys being in charge of huge swaths of Iraq okay. But how do you think that helps Iraq?

I’m sorry. I think killing innocents (even by mistake) is terribly dangerous for us.
And what part of the “Iraqi military are not willing to fight ISIS” has escaped you?
It is one thing to have partners on the ground, quite another to have them running away as fast as they can.
Tell me why we should fight for those who will not fight for themselves?

158 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 12:46:47pm

re: #155 Ed E. Lishus

Pffft. Can’t even note actual events huh? With an honest question that separated the two concepts -policy and invasion?

159 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 12:46:48pm

re: #152 Decatur Deb

How does that disqualify him from being one of the better Republicans?

Shitstain McCain.

160 S'latch  Jun 12, 2014 12:46:59pm

re: #147 ObserverArt

If Ronald Reagan were here, would he be telling Maliki “I’m from the U.S. government and I’m here to help.”

161 calochortus  Jun 12, 2014 12:47:15pm

re: #156 Shiplord Kirel

The leper with the most fingers…..

Well. I won’t be getting that analogy out of my mind any time soon.

162 Dr Lizardo  Jun 12, 2014 12:48:04pm

re: #132 Charles Johnson

Sweet. Give the EFF $100K, get a glowing review of your book. Everybody wins.

I seem to recall a word for that. An older word, used to reference a scandal regarding radio in the 50’s or so.

Oh, yeah….payola.

163 Ed E. Lishus  Jun 12, 2014 12:48:15pm

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Card, Addington, etc. et al. These SOBs own this. THEY own it.

164 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 12:49:16pm

Top UN official in Iraq tells UN Security Council there is no immediate danger of violence spreading to Baghdad, diplomats say - @Reuters
End of alert

165 calochortus  Jun 12, 2014 12:49:17pm

re: #163 Ed E. Lishus

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Card, Addington, etc. et al. These SOBs own this. THEY own it.

Fortunately, however, they aren’t running the show now.

166 Ed E. Lishus  Jun 12, 2014 12:50:09pm

re: #158 Rightwingconspirator

I’m sorry, what does Clinton signing a piece of paper have to do with any of the relevant facts in the discussion?

167 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 12:50:21pm

re: #157 blueraven

I’m sorry. I think killing innocents (even by mistake) is terribly dangerous for us.
And what part of the “Iraqi military are not willing to fight ISIS” has escaped you?
It is one thing to have partners on the ground, quite another to have them running away as fast as they can.
Tell me why we should fight for those who will not fight for themselves?

Stop talking to me like I’m a neocon.

I’m just understanding exactly what you mean. if we are worried about innocent Iraqi’s and our air strikes we might consider the innocent iraqi civilians that might not do so well under the new regime. Action and inaction both have consequences. And unlike some i’m not claiming to have the answers.

168 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 12:50:39pm

re: #163 Ed E. Lishus

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Card, Addington, etc. et al. These SOBs own this. THEY own it.

And to add a bit of MBF dust, so does Colin Powell. He might be the worst, because he knew.

169 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 12:51:11pm

re: #126 Lidane

[Embedded content]

And they want to know why they were not apprised of Bergdahl’s release?

170 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 12:51:42pm

re: #165 calochortus

Fortunately, however, they aren’t running the show now.

Thank fucking god… and I don’t even believe in god. They should still be held accountable.

171 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 12, 2014 12:52:35pm
172 calochortus  Jun 12, 2014 12:53:00pm

re: #170 GlutenFreeJesus

Thank fucking god… and I don’t even believe in god. They should still be held accountable.

Yes, but they won’t be. They will go to their graves thinking they did right and others failed.

173 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 12:53:23pm

We will stand by you as you fight these terrorists, but we can’t hold your hand while you do it.

US Vice President Joe Biden spoke with Iraqi PM Nouri al-Maliki by phone and expressed US solidarity with Iraq in its fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant - via @NBCNews
End of alert

174 ObserverArt  Jun 12, 2014 12:53:41pm

Sorry to go off topic. I mentioned the other day that Chris Matthews seems to have had a directional change in his usual tone and thinking and wondered if he is being driven to it by the new overlords at NBC.

I was doing some searching about the new VA tea party rep candidate and came across this YouTube. Seems rather odd to me for Matthews…anyone want to lend your take. I don’t watched him a lot because his style grates on my sense of how you do interviews so if anyone does catch him I wonder if this is the ‘old’ or the ‘new’ Tweety?

Chris Matthews Defends Tea Party on Ronan Farrow show.

Youtube Video

175 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 12:54:02pm

re: #154 GlutenFreeJesus

The 2003 invasion. Signing off on regime change, and not invading didn’t cause any of this. Nobody died when Clinton signed that paper.

Then perhaps the article should not conflate those two very different things. Right?

176 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 12:54:49pm

re: #173 Justanotherhuman

We will stand by you as you fight these terrorists, but we can’t hold your hand while you do it.

US Vice President Joe Biden spoke with Iraqi PM Nouri al-Maliki by phone and expressed US solidarity with Iraq in its fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant - via @NBCNews
End of alert

If you have a promise of solidarity and a donut, you have a pastry.

177 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 12, 2014 12:55:20pm

re: #146 Rightwingconspirator

I don’t see why anger about the past invasion should change what happens next policy wise.

Nobody is saying it should.

It’s all about the reality on the ground and consequences. Not recriminations. That’s for discussion not policy. IMHO. If we are okay with these guys being in charge of huge swaths of Iraq okay. But how do you think that helps Iraq?

We’re not ‘okay’ with it.

178 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 12:55:56pm

Unless the Iraqi government shows some signs of being able to field a capable military, I think the question of US intervention is a no-brainer.

It is idiotic to do anything for a regime that will have 30,000 lose to 800.

179 calochortus  Jun 12, 2014 12:56:20pm

re: #173 Justanotherhuman

We will stand by you as you fight these terrorists, but we can’t hold your hand while you do it.

US Vice President Joe Biden spoke with Iraqi PM Nouri al-Maliki by phone and expressed US solidarity with Iraq in its fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant - via @NBCNews
End of alert

You suppose Biden mentioned that we were asked to leave? Or would that have been in bad taste?

180 piratedan  Jun 12, 2014 12:58:18pm

re: #153 makeitstop

seems kinda strange since he’s the SOB responsible for the current “dynamic” in the Middle East, why shouldn’t we blame him….

instead of going after Al Queda to the point where the actual nation-building in Afghanistan might have taken place (working with the Northern Warlords instead of the douchebag currently in charge), we decided to attend to some personal family bidness and help our favorite friends in the oil industry to some healthy profits, what could go wrong?

It was about oil and wealth and fuckall about the folks who were killed in the towers and the planes. That bastard milked the sentiment of the country for all that it was worth, played on people’s fears and while doing so, looted the country and damn near fucked over the western world while he was at it.

Apologists like KT can just fuck right the fuck off

181 blueraven  Jun 12, 2014 1:00:00pm

re: #167 Rightwingconspirator

Stop talking to me like I’m a neocon.

I’m just understanding exactly what you mean. if we are worried about innocent Iraqi’s and our air strikes we might consider the innocent iraqi civilians that might not do so well under the new regime. Action and inaction both have consequences. And unlike some i’m not claiming to have the answers.

As opposed to all those killed when we invaded?

Do you think our getting involved again now will save lives, or make a difference in the end?
I do not.

How about all the Sunnis that are not doing so well under the current regime? It is rumored, and likely true that they are sympathizing with ISIS and joining them.

182 klys  Jun 12, 2014 1:00:07pm

re: #178 EPR-radar

Unless the Iraqi government shows some signs of being able to field a capable military, I think the question of US intervention is a no-brainer.

It is idiotic to do anything for a regime that will have 30,000 lose to 800.

At some point, we have to respect the right of people to make their own decisions. A whole bunch of them clearly decided they don’t want to fight for their country, for whatever set of reasons.

Why should we?

183 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 1:01:42pm

re: #177 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

We’re not ‘okay’ with it.

Well then we do have quite a dilemma. One that hits almost every remaining angry partisan hot button on the political landscape. The din is overwhelming. And I don’t mean that here i mean in the media in general right now.

So it makes sense in conversations to me to stop conflating different events like the US signing off on regime change and later invading on false grounds.

184 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 1:03:02pm

re: #176 Decatur Deb

If you have a promise of solidarity and a donut, you have a pastry.

No US ground troops. A few strategic drones, perhaps?

The Iraqi Army left equipment, materiel, and even their uniforms behind when they fled Mosul.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.

We can’t afford to spend the next 10 yrs (or more) correcting a war that never should have occurred.

185 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 1:03:16pm

re: #174 ObserverArt

Tweety does this sort of thing from time to time - it’s just how he is.

186 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 1:03:48pm

re: #172 calochortus

Yes, but they won’t be. They will go to their graves thinking they did right and others failed.

Unfortunately.

187 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 1:04:11pm

re: #182 klys

At some point, we have to respect the right of people to make their own decisions. A whole bunch of them clearly decided they don’t want to fight for their country, for whatever set of reasons.

Why should we?

I’m certainly not saying we should, but that was not exactly a democratic vote. The ones who walked may have been wearing the uniform as a job, and may not even feel like it IS their country, or that they aren’t getting paid enough to die for it, or knew their government wouldn’t have their backs, or any number of other scenarios.

188 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 1:04:36pm

re: #183 Rightwingconspirator

Well then we do have quite a dilemma. One that hits almost every remaining angry partisan hot button on the political landscape. The din is overwhelming. And I don’t mean that here i mean in the media in general right now.

So it makes sense in conversations to me to stop conflating different events like the US signing off on regime change and later invading on false grounds.

What dilemma? The solution is easy. STAY OUT OF IT.

189 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 1:05:13pm

re: #182 klys

At some point, we have to respect the right of people to make their own decisions. A whole bunch of them clearly decided they don’t want to fight for their country, for whatever set of reasons.

Why should we?

Exactly. If the Iraqi regime were capable of fielding a military, and were still being hard-pressed by insurgents, I’ll be the first to admit I’d have a hard time deciding whether or not the US should intervene.

As it stands, the decision is remarkably easy. Going in now in any meaningful way would essentially be a reboot of the occupation, which is simply unthinkable.

190 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 12, 2014 1:05:15pm
191 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 12, 2014 1:06:08pm

re: #183 Rightwingconspirator

Well then we do have quite a dilemma. One that hits almost every remaining angry partisan hot button on the political landscape. The din is overwhelming. And I don’t mean that here i mean in the media in general right now.

I don’t get what you think the huge dilemma is, and how it hits partisan buttons.

So it makes sense in conversations to me to stop conflating different events like the US signing off on regime change and later invading on false grounds.

It wasn’t the signing off on the regime change that was the problem, it was how we went about it. Signing off on regime change was fine. Enacting regime change through invasion was almost certainly doomed to failure.

192 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 1:06:33pm

Shit, shit, shit.

Hawkins County, Tenn., Sheriff arrests 2 juveniles charged with planning a mass shooting at school - @6News
End of alert

193 makeitstop  Jun 12, 2014 1:06:45pm

Fucking McCain.

McCain left classified briefing ‘after only a matter of minutes’

Members of the Senate Armed Services Committee, of which McCain is the ranking member, were given a classified briefing this afternoon from military and intelligence officials, keeping lawmakers apprised of the latest developments in the Iraqi crisis.

McCain left the closed-door briefing after only a matter of minutes, telling reporters the security situation in Iraq “is the greatest threat since the Cold War.”

IIRC, he and Huckleberry passed on a Benghazi briefing so they could call a press conference demanding more information on Benghazi.

Asshole.

194 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 1:07:18pm

re:
#176

And a mighty good pastry.

195 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 1:07:31pm

re: #184 Justanotherhuman

No US ground troops. A few strategic drones, perhaps?

The Iraqi Army left equipment, materiel, and even their uniforms behind when they fled Mosul.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.

We can’t afford to spend the next 10 yrs (or more) correcting a war that never should have occurred.

The only justifiable reason for air strikes is to try to destroy the stockpiles of fairly modern modern munitions we just handed to the bad guys via the Iraqis. Manned or drone makes no difference except for the risk of personnel loss.

196 ObserverArt  Jun 12, 2014 1:08:38pm

re: #167 Rightwingconspirator

Stop talking to me like I’m a neocon.

I’m just understanding exactly what you mean. if we are worried about innocent Iraqi’s and our air strikes we might consider the innocent iraqi civilians that might not do so well under the new regime. Action and inaction both have consequences. And unlike some i’m not claiming to have the answers.

Here is what I see as the problem. Both action and inaction lead to the same conclusions. America is seen as the bad guy, the middle east continues on being the screwed up region it has been for a long time. As soon as we leave it reverts right back to what it was.

To me, at least staying out of the place keeps us from losing American soldiers and tons of money.

So, ask yourself, will anything we do fix anything? You can’t change behaviors until the person(s) with the problems decide they want to change. It’s sad that they kill each other all the time, but do we need to add our people to the killing when it does nothing to stop them from killing each other?

197 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 1:08:40pm

re: #187 wrenchwench

I’m certainly not saying we should, but that was not exactly a democratic vote. The ones who walked may have been wearing the uniform as a job, and may not even feel like it IS their country, or that they aren’t getting paid enough to die for it, or knew their government wouldn’t have their backs, or any number of other scenarios.

Good enough a vote for me, given the circumstances that led up to this. Regardless of their reasons for being in the uniform, they still voted with their feet. I doubt many in Iraq feel like it’s their country anymore. It ceased to be 11 years ago. Sure, they had Saddam. He was no saint. We can all agree on that. But he was a much better choice than what’s going on there now.

No going back in time though. Our best path right now? Stay out of this. Every time we come to the “rescue”, they will just expect it. They will never again learn how to defend their own country. It pains me to see so many civilians caught up in this, but I see no other solution.

198 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 1:08:43pm

re: #181 blueraven

Do you think our getting involved again now will save lives, or make a difference in the end?
I do not.

That of course would depend on countless unspoken details on what “getting involved” means. I don’t see anyone here suggesting we re invade. If Obama starts to help with military assistance will that make him terribly wrong in your eyes?

199 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 12, 2014 1:08:48pm

I don’t think there’s going to be strong GOP support for a re-invasion of Iraq or even airstrikes, especially if Obama signals he’s open to air strikes. They’ll just use this as an opportunity to shamelessly claim this is all Obama’s fault.

200 klys  Jun 12, 2014 1:09:00pm

re: #187 wrenchwench

I’m certainly not saying we should, but that was not exactly a democratic vote. The ones who walked may have been wearing the uniform as a job, and may not even feel like it IS their country, or that they aren’t getting paid enough to die for it, or knew their government wouldn’t have their backs, or any number of other scenarios.

I know, which is why I said for any number of reasons. But at some point, we have to draw the line. The question is, of course, where? My opinion is that when 30,000 troops run away from 800 men, it’s time for us to step back, at least until there is some organization emerges and asks for help again.

*Edited because wow bad grammar.

201 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 1:09:22pm

re: #187 wrenchwench

I’m certainly not saying we should, but that was not exactly a democratic vote. The ones who walked may have been wearing the uniform as a job, and may not even feel like it IS their country, or that they aren’t getting paid enough to die for it, or knew their government wouldn’t have their backs, or any number of other scenarios.

First we have to determine if Iraq is even a country, or is just the extension of one strongman holding together a fiction, like Tito’s Yugoslavia.

202 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 1:09:28pm

re: #182 klys

At some point, we have to respect the right of people to make their own decisions. A whole bunch of them clearly decided they don’t want to fight for their country, for whatever set of reasons.

Why should we?

AMERICAN PRIDE

USA USA USA

203 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 12, 2014 1:10:06pm

re: #198 Rightwingconspirator

That of course would depend on countless unspoken details on what “getting involved” means. I don’t see anyone here suggesting we re invade. If Obama starts to help with military assistance will that make him terribly wrong in your eyes?

The way the Iraqi government is handling this right now, that might as well be giving military assistance to Isis. If the Iraqi army can’t make a stand, any weapons we give them will just be acquired by the enemy.

204 dog philosopher  Jun 12, 2014 1:11:35pm

McCain left the closed-door briefing after only a matter of minutes, telling reporters the security situation in Iraq “is the greatest threat since the Cold War.”

last month “the greatest threat since the Cold War” was the ukraine situation

205 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 1:12:47pm

re: #198 Rightwingconspirator

That of course would depend on countless unspoken details on what “getting involved” means. I don’t see anyone here suggesting we re invade. If Obama starts to help with military assistance will that make him terribly wrong in your eyes?

We already helped with military assistance. And now ISIS is riding around cheering and taking over city by city in that very assistance we gave to Iraq.

My bet is Obama will sign off on some air strikes and sending in “advisers”. That would indeed make him terribly wrong. He won’t get my vote in 2016.

206 ObserverArt  Jun 12, 2014 1:12:52pm

re: #185 Charles Johnson

Tweety does this sort of thing from time to time - it’s just how he is.

Thanks. I guess he does it to maintain balance. Most people seem to paint him as a dyed in the wool liberal excuse maker…or so I thought.

207 nines09  Jun 12, 2014 1:12:53pm

re: #54 Lidane

I thought MCains party did all that. Mission accomplished and all. Fuck McCain.

208 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 1:13:06pm

This isn’t some kind of one-off occurrence; it happens more often than people think, but it was not an invasion of US air space.

However, Pres McCain would no doubt have scrambled the entire Air Force.

4 Russian bombers entered US Air Defense Zone near Alaska on Monday, senior defense officials say - @NBCNews
Read more on nbcnews.com

209 Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 12, 2014 1:13:40pm

re: #204 dog philosopher

McCain left the closed-door briefing after only a matter of minutes, telling reporters the security situation in Iraq “is the greatest threat since the Cold War.”

last month “the greatest threat since the Cold War” was the ukraine situation

Someone changed the disc since then.
//

210 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 1:14:18pm

re: #201 Decatur Deb

First we have to determine if Iraq is even a country, or is just the extension of one strongman holding together a fiction, like Tito’s Yugoslavia.

I guess it’s at least Syraq now.

211 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 1:14:51pm

I’m not sure how significant it is that the militants seized US tanks and helicopters and other advanced weapons. These things need to be constantly maintained and require training to operate. I doubt ISIS is going to suddenly start invading Baghdad with US tanks.

212 lawhawk  Jun 12, 2014 1:15:14pm

re: #199 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Obama goes with UAV strikes, GOP complains that he’s exceeding his authority as CinC (even though he does have this power WPA or not). Send in USAF to do airstrikes, and you get same response, only intensified since we’d be putting actual US personnel into harms’ way.

Obama does nothing, and GOP complains that he’s lost Iraq.

Obama can do no right even if there’s no real right answer to the issue. It’s only what presents itself as the least bad option.

Least bad option IMO: UAV strikes against key ISIS leaders. Take the sails out of the ISIS thugs moving towards Baghdad. But don’t give Iraqi forces more materials, especially for the army given their propensity to turn and run, leaving all that equipment for the thugs they’re supposed to be fighting.

Oh, and I also expect Kurdistan in Northern Iraq to agitate for independence - or greater autonomy given that their security is threatened both by the rise of ISIS and the declining ability of the Iraqi authorities in Baghdad to provide security. If that happens, the Iraqi government in Baghdad is likely to fall, and a strongman is likely to pick up the pieces.

213 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 1:15:36pm

re: #210 wrenchwench

I guess it’s at least Syraq now.

Dunno. This thing could go in 6 directions. There are a lot of players with real or imagined gains to be made.

214 piratedan  Jun 12, 2014 1:15:39pm

re: #210 wrenchwench

wouldn’t be surprised to see the creation of a Kurdish State and a further breakdown into separate Sunni and Shia states… the hard part, as always, is where do the lines get drawn and who gets to draw them.

215 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 1:15:47pm

re:
#190

Apparently just a flesh wound ankle injury.

cnn.com

216 CarolJ  Jun 12, 2014 1:16:26pm

re: #3 jaunte

Yes they would. Why? No decent leadership. The folks who try to play “patriot” forget the “intelligence” and the “alliance” and the “leadership” part. Not to mention the “organization” and “ideology” part. Not to mention the fact that France began to supply the Continental Army with modern weapons, that Von Steuben trained the Army in tactics and strategy, and that the French Navy helped patrol the seas.

Besides Iraqis, especially after 10 years of a barely-functioning government, are pretty well armed. It’s just that they don’t have the rest of what you need to be a real army.

217 ObserverArt  Jun 12, 2014 1:16:30pm

re: #187 wrenchwench

I’m certainly not saying we should, but that was not exactly a democratic vote. The ones who walked may have been wearing the uniform as a job, and may not even feel like it IS their country, or that they aren’t getting paid enough to die for it, or knew their government wouldn’t have their backs, or any number of other scenarios.

Hasn’t this happened before with Middle Eastern Armies? I’m no ME history specialist, but didn’t the Egyptian army do something similar in the 1967 war with Israel? I seem to remember something about them just jumping out of their tanks and leaving them along a road and taking off. And then again with the Gulf War under Bush 1…didn’t similar abandonment of equipment and position occur?

218 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 1:16:37pm

re: #188 GlutenFreeJesus

What dilemma? The solution is easy. STAY OUT OF IT.

I understand the feeling that there’s a dilemma here. On the one hand, even though we shouldn’t have invaded, we DID, and set up the conditions that now exist. Further, we probably will not like the outcome of not intervening, and further still, the people of Iraq may not like them either. So we ARE responsible, and there’s a natural desire to fix what we fucked up.

But on the other hand, why do we think we can have a positive effect on the outcome? We spent 10 years, 4000 American lives, and > $1e12 on Iraq and it wasn’t enough to make it what we wanted. It seems more likely to either blow up in our faces - American troops captured and/or killed, more money poured away for nought, EVEN MORE resentment of us in the region - or to leave us with a weak Iraqi government permanently dependent on our blood and treasure for their survival.

The folks like McCain who never saw a situation he didn’t want to get involved in seem to think that our presence will magically fix things. The lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan is the direct opposite - it’s about the limits of power, which we find are far lower than we’d thought. Our ability to control events is a lot less than we’d thought.

Fortunately, the folks who got us into this mess in the first place aren’t in charge now. Unfortunately, lost of people appear to have missed the whole “limits of power” lesson, and think if we just do this next thing, it’ll all be fine.

It won’t. It’ll never end.

219 Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 12, 2014 1:16:58pm

re: #214 piratedan

wouldn’t be surprised to see the creation of a Kurdish State and a further breakdown into separate Sunni and Shia states… the hard part, as always, is where do the lines get drawn and who gets to draw them.

And I’m sure Turkey and Iran will be thrilled with a de facto independent Kurdish state coming into being. Is Iran still having issues with Kurdish separatists?

220 Timothy Watson  Jun 12, 2014 1:17:03pm

re: #215 Bulworth

re:
#190

cnn.com

Who would have thought that The Daily Fail would portray an ankle injury as someone being near death?

////

221 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 1:17:20pm

re: #211 Charles Johnson

I’m not sure how significant it is that the militants seized US tanks and helicopters and other advanced weapons. These things need to be constantly maintained and require training to operate. I doubt ISIS is going to suddenly start invading Baghdad with US tanks.

More of a symbolic victory for them that will surely help swell their ranks and bring more people to their side. In the long-run, you’re pretty much correct though. But have you seen how adept Iraqis are at jerry-rigging things to keep working?

222 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 1:17:53pm

re:
#204

Nonsense. Greatest threat since Cold War was release of 5 Taliban super terrorists extraordinaire. ///

223 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 1:18:51pm

re: #211 Charles Johnson

I’m not sure how significant it is that the militants seized US tanks and helicopters and other advanced weapons. These things need to be constantly maintained and require training to operate. I doubt ISIS is going to suddenly start invading Baghdad with US tanks.

And we don’t give anyone our newest stuff. What they got could still raise hell in the ME, though. An uparmored HMMWV is a good step from a Toyota technical.

224 lawhawk  Jun 12, 2014 1:18:52pm

re: #211 Charles Johnson

I’m not sure how significant it is that the militants seized US tanks and helicopters and other advanced weapons. These things need to be constantly maintained and require training to operate. I doubt ISIS is going to suddenly start invading Baghdad with US tanks.

Getting that gear means they get to show it off, and get those fence-sitters in Anbar to consider joining them. They might strip those tanks and other gear of usable equipment - the 50cal guns and other stuff that is more portable and doesn’t require the expertise to operate.

Oh, and I also expect them to take all the ammo for those tanks and helicopters so as to make more bombs and IEDs that’ll do more damage to the infrastructure and civilian populations than they’ve done to date.

The significant thing is that the Iraqi military folded like a cheap suit against a bunch of thugs. Even with all that gear, they didn’t hold. That’s telling about motivations, capabilities, and the Iraqi military in general. None of it is good.

225 piratedan  Jun 12, 2014 1:19:11pm

re: #219 Feline Fearless Leader

the flippant answer is “who doesn’t”, but perhaps there would be less agitation if the Kurds actually got to rule themselves, but since politics is often reduced to a zero sum game, the next question that follows is at whose expense, never mind that there’s a region already in existence populated by Kurds…..

226 lawhawk  Jun 12, 2014 1:19:33pm

re: #190 NJDhockeyfan

I have a bad feeling about that… though it sounds like a broken/torn up ankle, and nothing more serious than that.

227 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 1:19:46pm

Oops Brasil!

228 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 1:19:58pm

re: #214 piratedan

wouldn’t be surprised to see the creation of a Kurdish State and a further breakdown into separate Sunni and Shia states… the hard part, as always, is where do the lines get drawn and who gets to draw them.

If we go along with that, we’ve screwed Turkey, again.

229 Bubblehead II  Jun 12, 2014 1:20:55pm

re: #199 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I don’t think there’s going to be strong GOP support for a re-invasion of Iraq or even airstrikes, especially if Obama signals he’s open to air strikes. They’ll just use this as an opportunity to shamelessly claim this is all Obama’s fault.

To late. They already have.

‘Taking a nap’: Obama team accused of underestimating Iraq unrest

The Obama administration’s apparent miscalculation of the threat posed by Al Qaeda-aligned militants in Iraq drew severe criticism Thursday from top Republican lawmakers, who accused President Obama and his national security team of “taking a nap,” warning “the next 9/11 is in the making.”

Bashing him for not being aware of the situation and tossing in an added dose of fear mongering to boot.

230 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 1:20:56pm
231 missliberties  Jun 12, 2014 1:21:35pm

Isn’t it interesting that the Iraq War gave Iraq to the Iranian Shiites.

Isn’t it interesting that McCain and some others insisted on arming the Sunnis to help fight Assad in Syria.

All I can say is what a mess. I regret deeply that we ever set foot in Iraq.

On Powerline blog home of true elite thought leaders and lawyers for the Koch Bros, who pushed so hard for the Iraq War, now insist that Iraq was basically an experiment to see of Ah-Raabs could govern themselves.

“In my view, the Iraq war was fought, in part, to answer a critical series of questions. The first was, are Arabs capable of self-government?” ~John Hinderacker

powerlineblog.com

I am sure the soldiers who lost their arms and legs fighting to free Iraqi’s feel so proud to know they were fighting in a neo-con experiment to see if Arabs could self govern.

232 piratedan  Jun 12, 2014 1:23:07pm

re: #228 Decatur Deb

could be, but if there’s a non-militant kurdish state on their border, is that a better trade off than militant Kurds and Islamic Fundalmentalists raising hell? I can’t answer that, but not sure how different an existence that would be from what they have going on now… not saying that Turkey has to cede any territory, but hell, isn’t most of what is Northern Iraq controlled by the Kurds now, is essence?

233 b.d.  Jun 12, 2014 1:23:29pm

re: #230 Stanley Sea

[Embedded content]

How ugly.

234 GlutenFreeJesus  Jun 12, 2014 1:24:41pm

re: #218 GeneJockey

It’ll never end, so long as we keep thinking we can change things (for the better) if we just keep throwing more money/equipment/lives at xyz. Once we get over this mindset and start to mind our own business, and accept the fact that not everyone wants to live the way we do, perhaps there will be progress. But I sure won’t hold my breath.

235 CarolJ  Jun 12, 2014 1:24:55pm

re: #228 Decatur Deb

If we go along with that, we’ve screwed Turkey, again.

There’s no choice now. Even if the central government in Baghdad holds up, it’s too weak to really hold the Kurds. While for a lot of reasons, the Kurds may keep the fig leaf of being part of Iraq, basically they will be independent.
They will have no military or financial support from whatever is left of Iraq, and will also have no need to send tax funds to Baghdad either.

The agitation over Kurdistan is because the Kurds don’t have a state of their own, and they are not allowed to have Kurdish culture either. The new situation may cause some Kurds elsewhere to come in to strengthen the place and alleviate the need to carve out the rest of the Middle East for a state of their own.

236 klys  Jun 12, 2014 1:25:02pm

re: #233 b.d.

How ugly.

Hope he has a bodyguard or 3.

237 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 1:25:23pm

I call the 2nd one.

238 blueraven  Jun 12, 2014 1:25:46pm

re: #198 Rightwingconspirator

That of course would depend on countless unspoken details on what “getting involved” means. I don’t see anyone here suggesting we re invade. If Obama starts to help with military assistance will that make him terribly wrong in your eyes?

Not necessarily. I would have to know the details. What I am pissed about is all the calls from McCain and co to do something right now and that something is BOMB, BOMB, BOMB. And the blame game from them that this is all his fault.

Again, they are wanting to go in without any international support, or thinking things through. DeJa Vu.

That said, it would have to be a damn good limited plan and strong justification for me to support any military action.

239 b.d.  Jun 12, 2014 1:26:47pm

re: #236 klys

Hope he has a bodyguard or 3.

I had no idea Brazil was playing the Purina corporate team in the opening match.

//

240 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 12, 2014 1:27:24pm

re: #229 Bubblehead II

To late. They already have.

The Obama administration’s apparent miscalculation of the threat posed by Al Qaeda-aligned militants in Iraq drew severe criticism Thursday from top Republican lawmakers, who accused President Obama and his national security team of “taking a nap,” warning “the next 9/11 is in the making.”

9/11 and Iraq, still connected in GOP minds.

241 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 1:28:24pm

re: #238 blueraven

Not necessarily. I would have to know the details. What I am pissed about is all the calls from McCain and co to do something right now and that something is BOMB, BOMB, BOMB. And the blame game from them that this is all his fault.

Again, they are wanting to go in without any international support, or thinking things through. DeJa Vu.

That said, it would have to be a damn good limited plan and strong justification for me to support any military action.

It really is this simple.

242 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 1:28:46pm

re: #239 b.d.

I had no idea Brazil was playing the Purina corporate team in the opening match.

//

L O L

243 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 1:29:34pm

re: #232 piratedan

could be, but if there’s a non-militant kurdish state on their border, is that a better trade off than militant Kurds and Islamic Fundalmentalists raising hell? I can’t answer that, but not sure how different an existence that would be from what they have going on now… not saying that Turkey has to cede any territory, but hell, isn’t most of what is Northern Iraq controlled by the Kurds now, is essence?

Yup, but they really, really, don’t want a Kurdistan that includes former Iraq, Syria, and Turkish territory. That would likely find us defending a NATO member from an incursion.

244 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 1:31:06pm

White House physician says May physical found President Obama is ‘tobacco free;’ Clinical data indicate Obama will remain healthy for rest of term - @petermaercbs
End of alert

245 dog philosopher  Jun 12, 2014 1:32:16pm

Obama: Iraq will need additional US assistance

there will be bombing

my guess is that isis will grind to a halt somewhere north of baghdad

246 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 1:32:29pm

re: #11 Gus

Chickenhawk War Wish List:

[x] Syria
[x] Iraq
[x] Ukraine
[x] Afghanistan
[x] Iran

Ukraine is Putin’s doing, and as much as I despise him, he ain’t a chickenhawk…

247 klys  Jun 12, 2014 1:33:15pm

re: #246 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Ukraine is Putin’s doing, and as much as I despise him, he ain’t a chickenhawk…

I think Gus was referring to the agitation from the US chickenhawks for us to get involved there militarily.

248 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 1:34:17pm

This was probably answered upthread; but anyways: why was the request denied? Seems like the least thing the US could do for the mess they created.

249 The Ghost of a Flea  Jun 12, 2014 1:34:32pm

Relevant:


Exhausted and Bereft, Iraqi Soldiers Quit Fight

After months of grinding conflict against a resurgent militant movement, the Iraqi Army is having its power blunted by a rise in desertions, turning the tide of the war and fragmenting an institution, trained and funded by the United States, that some hoped would provide Iraqis a common sense of citizenship.

In a nation tearing apart along sectarian lines, Sunnis and Shiites have served together in the military. But the defections of Sunni soldiers threatened to deepen the growing perception among Iraq’s Sunnis that the military serves as an instrument of Shiite power, even while Shiites soldiers have also fled.

250 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 1:36:58pm

re: #248 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

This was probably answered upthread; but anyways: why was the request denied? Seems like the least thing the US could do for the mess they created.

I tried to answer that here:

re: #218 GeneJockey

251 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 1:37:23pm

re: #247 klys

I think Gus was referring to the agitation from the US chickenhawks for us to get involved there militarily.

OK, a wishlist; but the Ukraine entry was checked, and as far as I know, no one from the US got involved militarily ;)

252 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 1:37:26pm

re: #248 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

This was probably answered upthread; but anyways: why was the request denied? Seems like the least thing the US could do for the mess they created.

We like to wait and see who is the good guy likely winner.

253 klys  Jun 12, 2014 1:38:30pm

re: #251 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

OK, a wishlist; but the Ukraine entry was checked, and as far as I know, no one from the US got involved militarily ;)

Yeah, we haven’t bombed Iran yet either.

Much to the chickenhawks’ displeasure.

254 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 1:38:54pm

re: #250 GeneJockey

Thanks, Gene.

255 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 1:39:04pm

re: #251 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

OK, a wishlist; but the Ukraine entry was checked, and as far as I know, no one from the US got involved militarily ;)

We sent two warships into the Black Sea, unbidden.

256 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 1:40:30pm

PS: back home, now must rest after the vacation ;)

257 freetoken  Jun 12, 2014 1:40:49pm

Off topic ( I think):

‘Why I left Ukip’: Sanya-Jeet Thandi - video

UKIP descending into populist racism??? Say it isn’t so!

258 blueraven  Jun 12, 2014 1:42:23pm

re: #251 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

OK, a wishlist; but the Ukraine entry was checked, and as far as I know, no one from the US got involved militarily ;)

Not for lack of trying on the part of some.

259 RealityBasedSteve  Jun 12, 2014 1:42:37pm

re: #239 b.d.

I had no idea Brazil was playing the Purina corporate team in the opening match.

//

Having spent a few years in Kansas City, that was almost the first thing I thought too.

RBS

260 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 12, 2014 1:43:35pm

This sucks. It’s right by my exit.

261 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 1:44:32pm

If we are as broke as the Republicans insist, any adventure, anywhere, must be pay-as-you-go. They’ll surely sign up for massive tax increases, say upper bracket income and capital gains.

262 leftynyc  Jun 12, 2014 1:44:55pm

re: #190 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Uh oh - crushed sounds pretty serious. I hope this is an abundance of caution.

263 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 1:50:50pm

re: #191 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I don’t get what you think the huge dilemma is, and how it hits partisan buttons.

It wasn’t the signing off on the regime change that was the problem, it was how we went about it. Signing off on regime change was fine. Enacting regime change through invasion was almost certainly doomed to failure, a failure.

You don’t get how Iraq today hits partisan hot buttons? The dilemma is the consequences of not doing anything vs doing anything in this hyper critical environment of Benghazi, IRS, Bundy, frenzy.

264 Shiplord Kirel  Jun 12, 2014 1:51:14pm

re: #262 leftynyc

Uh oh - crushed sounds pretty serious. I hope this is an abundance of caution.

Apparently an ankle injury. Ford is 71 so caution is in order.
Harrison Ford injures ankle while filming ‘Star Wars: Episode VII’

265 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 1:51:23pm

re: #262 leftynyc

Uh oh - crushed sounds pretty serious. I hope this is an abundance of caution.

Nope. Clickbait.

266 Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 12, 2014 1:52:19pm

re: #264 Shiplord Kirel

Apparently an ankle injury. Ford is 71 so caution is in order.
Harrison Ford injures ankle while filming ‘Star Wars: Episode VII’

Encase it in carbonite until the professionals can be assembled.

267 ObserverArt  Jun 12, 2014 1:53:14pm

re: #261 Decatur Deb

If we are as broke as the Republicans insist, any adventure, anywhere, must be pay-as-you-go. They’ll surely sign up for massive tax increases, say upper bracket income and capital gains.

And don’t forget they will also ask their kids to volunteer for the military. You know, to do the right thing as good Americans

268 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 1:54:30pm

I really do find it amazing in a bad way that Pollack is still someone the New York Times considers an authority on Iraq. I don’t want to see Pollack thrown in jail or anything like that, but he wrote a book that arguably was one of the linchpins of the Bush administration’s case for invading.

And not only did he suffer no professional consequences, he’s back being treated as an expert again — on the VERY SUBJECT he screwed up so disastrously.

What a world.

269 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 1:55:22pm

re:
#267

Volunteers who we’ll leave in Iraq or wherever in the ME if they get captured because we dont negoshiate with tearerists.

270 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 12, 2014 1:55:56pm

re: #263 Rightwingconspirator

You don’t get how Iraq today hits partisan hot buttons? The dilemma is the consequences of not doing anything vs doing anything in this hyper critical environment of Benghazi, IRS, Bundy, frenzy.

Well, absolutely everything hits the GOP’s buttons. But I don’t think that the GOP actually has a position, they’ll just be reflexively anti-Obama. Whatever he chooses, they’ll oppose. It could be anything, and they’d react the same way.

271 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 1:56:00pm

re: #268 Charles Johnson

NYT has much to answer for too. Judith Miller…

272 iossarian  Jun 12, 2014 1:56:30pm

re: #268 Charles Johnson

And not only did he suffer no professional consequences, he’s back being treated as an expert again — on the VERY SUBJECT he screwed up so disastrously.

What a world.

He is a Very Serious Person and as such must be taken Very Seriously.

The right-wing “intelligentsia” is chock-full of these people. They can be wrong on everything over and over again and yet never lose their Very Serious status or Brookings Institution stipends.

273 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 1:57:05pm

re: #272 iossarian

Just because.

275 ObserverArt  Jun 12, 2014 1:59:04pm

re: #268 Charles Johnson

I really do find it amazing in a bad way that Pollack is still someone the New York Times considers an authority on Iraq. I don’t want to see Pollack thrown in jail or anything like that, but he wrote a book that arguably was one of the linchpins of the Bush administration’s case for invading.

And not only did he suffer no professional consequences, he’s back being treated as an expert again — on the VERY SUBJECT he screwed up so disastrously.

What a world.

You know on the back of a bottle of shampoo it says rinse and repeat. It does not say when to stop rinsing and repeating.

276 Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2014 1:59:39pm

re: #274 NJDhockeyfan

Horrifying…

‘They lined the streets with the decapitated heads of police and soldiers’: Iraqi refugee reveals the horrors of the jihadi takeover as Baghdad vows to fight back

“Vows to fight back”? Sorry, this isn’t a fight, it’s a rout. In fact, I imagine a lot of Vietnam veterans are getting bad flashbacks to the Fall of Saigon right about now.

277 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 2:00:14pm

re: #270 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Right exactly so that ups the domestic stakes in the decision making. Glad I’m not him.

278 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 2:05:30pm
279 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 2:05:37pm
280 Petero1818  Jun 12, 2014 2:05:53pm

A sample of the headlines at Faux News today:

Ex-Commander: US left fragile Iraqi Govt.
Obama accused of taking a nap on Iraq
Opinion: Does Obama understand Iraq may soon be an Islamic State?

The fact that the GOP thinks this is a winner for them is fascinating. Please pass the popcorn.

281 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 2:07:43pm

re:
#280

Opinion: Does Obama understand Iraq may soon be an Islamic State?

Bwwwhwwhwhwhhhwwwwwaaaaa

282 iossarian  Jun 12, 2014 2:08:44pm

re: #275 ObserverArt

You know on the back of a bottle of shampoo it says rinse and repeat. It does not say when to stop rinsing and repeating.

Meanwhile, the BBC and the art of understatement, two-thirds of the way down their front-page article on Iraq:

The US invasion and occupation of Iraq in 2003 helped create and strengthen jihadist groups.

bbc.com

283 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 2:09:08pm

But we can totally afford to send Patton’s Army to the US-Mexico border and send in a ground invasion to Baghdad:

284 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 2:10:15pm

re: #283 Lidane

But we can totally afford to send Patton’s Army to the US-Mexico border and send in a ground invasion to Baghdad:

[Embedded content]

Why would any veteran vote for these clowns?

I remain mystified.

285 Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2014 2:10:46pm

re: #280 Petero1818

A sample of the headlines at Faux News today:

Ex-Commander: US left fragile Iraqi Govt.
Obama accused of taking a nap on Iraq
Opinion: Does Obama understand Iraq may soon be an Islamic State?

The fact that the GOP thinks this is a winner for them is fascinating. Please pass the popcorn.

Uhm, Iraq was already an Islamic state. In fact, I remember that being a source of a lot of wingnut anger when the nation’s constitution was being drafted, that it recognized Islam as the national religion of Iraq.

286 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2014 2:10:47pm

re: #249 The Ghost of a Flea

Relevant:


Exhausted and Bereft, Iraqi Soldiers Quit Fight

Kinda answers a question I was pondering: when those 30,000 Iraqi soldiers “ran away”, which directions did they run? How many ran straight to ISIS? And ran in that direction with the military equipment and knowledge of how to run & maintain said equipment?

287 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 2:11:05pm
288 Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2014 2:12:16pm

re: #287 Lidane

[Embedded content]

I’m sure the Army’s lookin’ for volunteers, John.

289 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 2:13:27pm

re:
#280

Obama accused of taking a nap on Iraq

Hmmm, passive voice. Who accused Obama of ‘taking a nap on Iraq’? A neutral observer, a specialist of some kind? Who? GOP Speaker of the House Boehner. Well that sort of matters.

290 iossarian  Jun 12, 2014 2:14:44pm

re: #289 Bulworth

re:
#280

Obama accused of taking a nap on Iraq

Hmmm, passive voice. Who accused Obama of ‘taking a nap on Iraq’? A neutral observer, a specialist of some kind? Who? GOP Speaker of the House Boehner. Well that sort of matters.

A butterfly flaps its wings in China and two weeks later a Republican blames Obama for something.

291 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 2:14:47pm
292 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 2:14:52pm
293 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 2:15:45pm

re: #287 Lidane

[Embedded content]

I suppose Cornyn did vote for the whole criminal Iraq adventure?

PS: a couple of the “good guys” (relatively speaking) did too and are at least apologetic about it.

294 goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2014 2:16:15pm

re: #277 Rightwingconspirator

Right exactly so that ups the domestic stakes in the decision making. Glad I’m not him.

How does it up the domestic stakees in his decision making when all decisions have the exact same outcome as far as the GOP is concerned? In their minds he can do no right so why even take their partisan bullshit into consideration? There’s literally no move he can make that will result in less opprobrium, it’s all pretty much equal because weak black liberal fascist gay islamist foreign communist tyrant derp.

295 thedopefishlives  Jun 12, 2014 2:17:14pm

Evening Lizardim.

296 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 2:17:43pm

140 characters is plenty.

297 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 2:19:10pm

re: #295 thedopefishlives

Evening Lizardim.

This would work great as an avi :)

298 thedopefishlives  Jun 12, 2014 2:19:42pm

re: #297 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

This would work great as an avi :)

Yes, sometime soon, I shall.

299 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 2:20:05pm

re: #274 NJDhockeyfan

Horrifying…

‘They lined the streets with the decapitated heads of police and soldiers’: Iraqi refugee reveals the horrors of the jihadi takeover as Baghdad vows to fight back

That’s a very good photo-essay of what seems to be going on. Most depth I’ve seen.

300 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 2:20:28pm

re: #296 wrenchwench

Parachute - certainly not. Drones, on the other hand…

301 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 2:22:58pm

What bullshit. Obama is an Eisenhower Republican in all but name:

302 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 2:23:17pm

Iran is sending troops. Okay. From Iran or from Syria?
///

303 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 2:23:19pm

Just talking w/a neighbor—2 kids who live here are graduating from HS tonight. His son is a State running champ and got what he said was a “small” scholarship from Wake Forest. He’s a guy who’s divorced and has 3 kids in school. The girl downstairs is probably going to do a short stint at a community college to get some creds for early childhood education, or maybe just go to work.

It’s really tough out there for these young people and I often wonder how many dreams will be shattered. They are always full of hope and need all he encouragement we can give them, for sure.

304 BlueSpotinAL  Jun 12, 2014 2:23:31pm

re: #287 Lidane

An appropriate, current metaphor for John Cornyn: bit.ly

305 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 2:23:40pm

re: #301 Lidane

As if there was anything wrong with it…

306 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 2:23:52pm

re: #278 Charles Johnson

@Green_Footballs ? The constant performance of snark, disdain and superiority must be exhausting.

We think of it as “Taking up the Lizard’s Burden”.

307 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 2:24:20pm

re: #300 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Parachute - certainly not. Drones, on the other hand…

Then we’ll have the libertarian/far left dudebros all up and shouty again.

308 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 2:24:49pm

re: #307 Rightwingconspirator

Fuck. Them.

309 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 2:26:04pm

re: #304 BlueSpotinAL

An appropriate, current metaphor for John Cornyn: bit.ly

That’s also an apt comparison for the Tea Party vs the GOP establishment.

310 iossarian  Jun 12, 2014 2:26:08pm

re: #307 Rightwingconspirator

Then we’ll have the libertarian/far left dudebros all up and shouty again.

Of course, Very Serious People agree that dropping bombs on countries that displease us is a reasonable and thoughtful response.

311 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 2:26:18pm

Hey when did the shiny new box around the comment link start? I just noticed.

312 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 2:27:03pm

re: #310 iossarian

Of course, Very Serious People agree that dropping bombs on countries that displease us is a reasonable and thoughtful response.

Strawman much?

313 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:27:23pm

This is like Pearl Harbor all over again.

//

314 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:27:43pm

Fuck it. I made a decision. Not our problem.

315 iossarian  Jun 12, 2014 2:28:08pm

re: #312 Rightwingconspirator

Strawman much?

I think the claim that opposition to drone strikes is evidence of “far left” thought is the issue here, but perhaps I didn’t make that clear enough.

316 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:28:24pm

America fuck yeah-team america

Youtube Video

317 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 2:28:44pm

re: #305 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

As if there was anything wrong with it…

There’s nothing wrong with being a liberal except in the RWNJ alternate reality.

Calling Obama the most librul preznit EVAR, OTOH, is insanity. His platform is virtually identical to Ike’s.

318 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2014 2:29:22pm

re: #306 Decatur Deb

We think of it as “The Lizard’s Burden”.

well,

somebody

has to do it…

319 Bulworth  Jun 12, 2014 2:30:24pm

re:
#301

This is a staggering blow to Obama’s re-election chances.

320 Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 12, 2014 2:31:12pm

re: #306 Decatur Deb

We think of it as “Taking up the Lizard’s Burden”.

Lizard conundrum

//

321 thedopefishlives  Jun 12, 2014 2:31:24pm

re: #314 Gus

Fuck it. I made a decision. No our problem.

The bombing will begin in five minutes.///

322 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:31:54pm
323 iossarian  Jun 12, 2014 2:33:02pm

re: #322 Gus

Seriously, these people think this is some kind of fucking video game.

324 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:33:26pm

Historians will look back at the Bush White House favorably.

//

325 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:33:51pm

re: #323 iossarian

Seriously, these people think this is some kind of fucking video game.

McCain wants in NOW!

326 lawhawk  Jun 12, 2014 2:33:55pm

re: #317 Lidane

You need to recalibrate your left-right. Obama is socialist/communist (and a awful one at that), who’s only surpassed to the left by Carter, Clinton, and the Devil himself.

Never mind that his foreign policy puts him on center right, in line with Nixon, Eisenhower, JFK, and most other 20th century presidents. Willing to use the military to a point, but wary of entanglements.

It’s not a perfect alignment, but presidential foreign policy isn’t a whipsaw endeavor in the US where you go from far right to far left, or even center right to center left.

It’s a gradual shift, and in the time Obama’s been in office, he’s carried on many of the Bush Administration foreign policy choices, while staking out a few differences, but the weight of the foreign policy is still center right - being involved in world affairs, protecting US interests (the key difference between administrations is identifying what those are, and how best to protect them), and winding down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

327 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:34:31pm
328 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:34:51pm

NOT-GOING-TO-HAPPEN.

329 thedopefishlives  Jun 12, 2014 2:35:02pm

re: #324 Gus

Historians will look back at the Bush White House favorably.

//

The derp was such a different flavor back in those days.

330 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 2:35:37pm

re: #327 Gus

Yep. America will unite the Sunni, Shia, Kurds, Salafists and every other single faction or sect in Iraq. Keep dreaming.

We have united them—they all hate us.

331 gwangung  Jun 12, 2014 2:35:57pm

re: #328 Gus

NOT-GOING-TO-HAPPEN.

Sure it will. We just invade the damn country again in the name of our corporation and every single faction will unite AGAINST us…..

332 thedopefishlives  Jun 12, 2014 2:36:03pm

re: #328 Gus

NOT-GOING-TO-HAPPEN.

Wait, you mean America’s not God’s answer to all of the Middle Eastern generational/sectarian violence? HERESY!

333 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 2:36:26pm

re: #326 lawhawk

You need to recalibrate your left-right. Obama is socialist/communist (and a awful one at that), who’s only surpassed to the left by Carter, Clinton, and the Devil himself.

Never mind that his foreign policy puts him on center right, in line with Nixon, Eisenhower, JFK, and most other 20th century presidents. Willing to use the military to a point, but wary of entanglements.

It’s not a perfect alignment, but presidential foreign policy isn’t a whipsaw endeavor in the US where you go from far right to far left, or even center right to center left.

It’s a gradual shift, and in the time Obama’s been in office, he’s carried on many of the Bush Administration foreign policy choices, while staking out a few differences, but the weight of the foreign policy is still center right - being involved in world affairs, protecting US interests (the key difference between administrations is identifying what those are, and how best to protect them), and winding down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

That’s because we have changes of Administration, not Regime Changes, despite the rhetoric saying otherwise.

334 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:36:30pm

I know how much this talk really pisses off the 101st Fighting Keyboards. Too bad.

335 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 2:36:36pm

re: #315 iossarian

I think the claim that opposition to drone strikes is evidence of “far left” thought is the issue here, but perhaps I didn’t make that clear enough.

Libertarians are not far left. But I think the opposition to drones-as-such is irrational, regardless of the political persuasion.

I think drones should be used as a measure of last resort. If someone disagrees that this situation is one of the kind - I’ll agree to disagree.

336 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 2:37:03pm

re: #291 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

Holy shit. That a lot of prisoners/hostages. Looks like another jackpot for ISIS.

337 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 12, 2014 2:37:14pm

re: #108 HappyWarrior

I like this Grant, he wins. Said by a man who knew Grant better than Friedersdorf.

“Find out what his favorite whisky is and send a case of it to all my other generals.”

338 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:37:53pm

re: #336 Killgore Trout

Holy shit. That a lot of prisoners/hostages. Looks like another jackpot for ISIS.

Too bad. Sorry, we’re busy.

339 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 12, 2014 2:38:15pm

re: #315 iossarian

I think the claim that opposition to drone strikes is evidence of “far left” thought is the issue here, but perhaps I didn’t make that clear enough.

Just pointing out the usual strong objectors to drones is all. Hey the more limited the involvement the better AFAIK .

340 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:38:37pm

341 thedopefishlives  Jun 12, 2014 2:38:41pm

re: #334 Gus

I know how much this talk really pisses off the 101st Fighting Keyboards. Too bad.

Maybe they should get off their keyboards and do something useful. If they joined the real 101st, maybe they wouldn’t be so dumb all the time.

342 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 2:39:56pm

re: #338 Gus

Too bad. Sorry, we’re busy.

ISIS probably isn’t going to kill all of them. They’ll get released through ransom payments and prisoner releases. Still, a big payday for ISIS.

343 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 2:40:37pm

(Although I do fully sympathize with those Americans who are just tired of all this shit and just want a break.)

344 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:41:06pm

re: #342 Killgore Trout

ISIS probably isn’t going to kill all of them. They’ll get released through ransom payments and prisoner releases. Still, a big payday for ISIS.

Maybe we should put boots on the ground, round them up, and stick them in GITMO for 20 years while force feeding them and torturing them for sekrits.

345 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 2:41:09pm

re: #340 Gus

[Embedded image]

Did you note another story? “The Politics of Selfishness”.

346 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 2:42:06pm

re: #342 Killgore Trout

ISIS probably isn’t going to kill all of them. They’ll get released through ransom payments and prisoner releases. Still, a big payday for ISIS.

Or a rescue operation. How are the Iranians with hostage rescues these days? I don’t know what Quds force training is like but I don’t think they’d be considered commandos.

347 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:42:49pm

Rambo’s back.

348 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 2:42:51pm

re: #343 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

(But you know, you broke it, you bought it…)

350 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 2:43:06pm

re: #336 Killgore Trout

Holy shit. That a lot of prisoners/hostages. Looks like another jackpot for ISIS.

They’ll slow the march to Baghdad if they do something other than let them all go.

351 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 2:43:11pm

re: #344 Gus

Maybe we should put boots on the ground, round them up, and stick them in GITMO for 20 years while force feeding them and torturing them for sekrits.

I don’t think that’s a good idea.

352 CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2014 2:43:28pm

What an incredible clusterfuck this is. Here’s a dose of reality on the ground in Iraq courtesy of the BBC earlier today. I’m pretty sure there are precious few of us here who can even begin to imagine ourselves & our families trapped in such a terrible, dangerous situation through no fault of our own:

Youtube Video

If you can connect to the internet and read these words, then count yourselves incredibly lucky, blessed, whatever to be living in a place of relative safety & security (despite all the mass shooting & other crap).

BTW, the BBC has good, in-depth coverage here.

Ugh. BBL

353 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 2:44:34pm

re: #350 wrenchwench

They’ll slow the march to Baghdad if they do something other than let them all go.

Yeah, the logistics of transporting, housing feeding and guarding that many prisoners/hostages must be a nightmare.

354 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:45:43pm

re: #348 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

(But you know, you broke it, you bought it…)

Whatever Obama decides I’ll support. Right now I’m firmly entrenched in Idontgiveafuckistan.

355 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 2:45:49pm

re: #353 Killgore Trout

Yeah, the logistics of transporting, housing feeding and guarding that many prisoners/hostages must be a nightmare.

Showing them off in a video is the easy part.

356 danarchy  Jun 12, 2014 2:46:11pm

re: #350 wrenchwench

They’ll slow the march to Baghdad if they do something other than let them all go.

Here is what I have been wondering, if there were 800 who attacked Mosul, are they the same that are moving towards Tikrit etc? Hard to occupy any territory with numbers like that. Are they just moving through or actually taking control?

357 thedopefishlives  Jun 12, 2014 2:46:12pm

re: #354 Gus

Whatever Obama decides I’ll support. Right now I’m firmly entrenched in Idontgiveafuckistan.

Your field of fucks is magnificently empty.

358 iossarian  Jun 12, 2014 2:46:34pm

re: #335 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Libertarians are not far left. But I think the opposition to drones-as-such is irrational, regardless of the political persuasion.

I think drones should be used as a measure of last resort. If someone disagrees that this situation is one of the kind - I’ll agree to disagree.

I totally agree that they can be used as a measure of last resort. This makes us both ultra-lefties in current US parlance.

Opposition to drones is not entirely irrational for me, as their use makes it easier to abstract away from the reality of blowing up small children in faraway places. But I agree that the kiddies are just as dead whether you use a drone or a conventional bomber.

359 iossarian  Jun 12, 2014 2:47:44pm

Had to step away for a bit. Have we engaged Operation Helldeath yet?

360 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:47:53pm

re: #357 thedopefishlives

Your field of fucks is magnificently empty.

I’ve had it with all this crap since 9/11. It’s been 13 freaking years. We almost destroyed the economy over this.

361 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 2:48:00pm

re: #354 Gus

Understood.

362 goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2014 2:48:15pm

re: #346 Killgore Trout

I don’t know what Quds force training is like but I don’t think they’d be considered commandos.

They’re very good.

Quds Force is considered by some analysts as “one of the best special forces units in the world”, according to a Los Angeles Times report.[23] In Abedin’s view, “[I]t’s a very capable force—their people are extremely talented, [and] they tend to be the best people in the IRGC”.[26]

363 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 2:49:29pm

re: #360 Gus

I’ve had it with all this crap since 9/11. It’s been 13 freaking years. We almost destroyed the economy over this.

The “almost” there is a debatable point. Perhaps Bush’s wars really did destroy the economy.

364 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:49:30pm
365 iossarian  Jun 12, 2014 2:49:52pm

re: #360 Gus

I’ve had it with all this crap since 9/11. It’s been 13 freaking years. We almost destroyed the economy over this.

The economy is remarkably resilient. But it did require lowering the standard of living for ~90% of the population.

366 Targetpractice  Jun 12, 2014 2:51:32pm

re: #364 Gus

[Embedded content]

Come now, Gus, history started on January 20th, 2009. Everybody knows that.

////

367 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 12, 2014 2:51:45pm

NARCISSISTIC DUMBASSES ON DISPLAY

368 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 12, 2014 2:52:50pm

I recognize Poitras on the far left (heh) and the smirking asshole on the monitor display, who are the other two idjuts?

369 Ian G.  Jun 12, 2014 2:54:56pm

re: #364 Gus

Yeah, but who cares what the Iraqis think? If they’re going to reject our military presence, well, we should just stay because FREEDOM!

I’m sure the Soviets had similar thoughts before invading Hungary in 1956.

370 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 2:54:59pm

re: #368 Pie-onist Overlord

I recognize Poitras on the far left (heh) and the smirking asshole on the monitor display, who are the other two idjuts?

Trevor Timm (next to Poitras) and Micah Lee, their “security” expert.

371 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 2:55:50pm

re: #358 iossarian

I totally agree that they can be used as a measure of last resort. This makes us both ultra-lefties in current US parlance.

Opposition to drones is not entirely irrational for me, as their use makes it easier to abstract away from the reality of blowing up small children in faraway places. But I agree that the kiddies are just as dead whether you use a drone or a conventional bomber.

Yes, blowing up the civilians - the “collateral damage”, this fucked up term - is not something to be taken lightly. But it seems to me - and maybe I’m, at this moment, one of those 101st FKs - that if you have something like that ISIS army - the chances of blowing up kids decrease, if you’re doing it rite. I fully acknowledge I may be wrong about this.

372 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:55:55pm

BTW. The other big story today is that the WH press secretary wore a baseball cap.

373 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 2:56:02pm

As they should.

New York’s Broadway theaters to dim lights on Friday at 7:45 pm ET in honor of Ruby Dee - @NewYorkTheater
see original on twitter.com

374 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2014 2:56:23pm

re: #372 Gus

BTW. The other big story today is that the WH press secretary wore a baseball cap.

distraction!!!!111!!!

375 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:58:08pm

Drones against a battalion. Not going to work.

376 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 2:58:16pm

re: #372 Gus

BTW. The other big story today is that the WH press secretary wore a baseball cap.

THE BASTARD

377 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 2:58:22pm

You’d need a lot of drones for that.

378 iossarian  Jun 12, 2014 2:58:36pm

re: #371 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Yes, blowing up the civilians - the “collateral damage”, this fucked up term - is not something to be taken lightly. But it seems to me - and maybe I’m, at this moment, one of those 101st FKs - that if you have something like that ISIS army - the chances of blowing up kids decrease, if you’re doing it rite. I fully acknowledge I may be wrong about this.

Possibly, I can see that argument.

379 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 2:58:39pm
380 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 2:58:50pm
381 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 2:59:27pm
382 Floral Giraffe  Jun 12, 2014 2:59:57pm

re: #260 NJDhockeyfan

Sucks worse for the folks who need the life flights!
Change your route! & Drive safely!

383 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 3:01:00pm
384 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 3:01:17pm

:(

385 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 3:01:19pm
386 Timothy Watson  Jun 12, 2014 3:02:50pm

re: #364 Gus

[Embedded content]

Stupid question: According to the RWNJs, what exactly was Obama supposed to do when Iraq said “no” to any troops? Invade?

387 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 3:03:04pm

re: #375 Gus

Again, just a 101 FK here :) And just like you, I’m happy to leave this to Obama - and oh, I wouldn’t want to be in shoes in this situation… Nevertheless, I’ll still ask question which I think need to be asked.

388 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 3:03:43pm
389 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 3:04:02pm

re: #386 Timothy Watson

Stupid question: According to the RWNJs, what exactly was Obama supposed to do when Iraq said “no” to any troops? Invade?

Would only be accomplished if we remained an occupying belligerent force. That is. Against their will.

390 thedopefishlives  Jun 12, 2014 3:05:16pm

re: #386 Timothy Watson

Stupid question: According to the RWNJs, what exactly was Obama supposed to do when Iraq said “no” to any troops? Invade?

SHUT UP, YOU STUPID COMMUNIST SHILL!

391 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2014 3:05:52pm

re: #388 Stanley Sea

[Embedded content]

Really, they were my first idea of “America’s Sweethearts”.
The mutual love and respect was so apparent.

392 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 12, 2014 3:07:40pm

cuteness break:

393 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 3:08:08pm

My mistake. This is from a guy with The Guardian.

394 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 3:08:17pm

re: #386 Timothy Watson

Stupid question: According to the RWNJs, what exactly was Obama supposed to do when Iraq said “no” to any troops? Invade?

WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA? Go piss up a rope.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

395 SpaceJesus  Jun 12, 2014 3:08:18pm

For what the US spent taking a giant crap in the Middle East we could have built the interstate highway system 3-4 fucking times over.

396 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 12, 2014 3:09:14pm

re: #382 Floral Giraffe

Sucks worse for the folks who need the life flights!
Change your route! & Drive safely!

They have the southbound lane shut down. I’ll be taking local roads to bypass that shit.

397 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 3:10:10pm

Wait a second. My turn to check something.

398 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 3:10:50pm

Some thoughts.
1. Undemocratic rulers are illegitimate in principle.
2. Despite 1), they are quasi-legitimate in the sense that they can be acknowledged as “legitimate” actors for the sake of diplomacy etc.
3. Deposing an illegitimate ruler is OK, unless
4. his deposition brings more easily foreseeable troubles than his staying in power.

Saddam was not a legitimate ruler. But the disastrous results of his deposition were too easy to predict.

399 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 3:11:39pm

Eh. Nothing. He’s worn that hat before. I’m sure this is bad optics for the neocons.

400 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 3:12:00pm
401 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 3:17:28pm

re: #400 Gus

[Embedded content]

Look at his encryption key: pgp.mit.edu

402 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 3:17:47pm

re: #398 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Some thoughts.
1. Undemocratic rulers are illegitimate in principle.
2. Despite 1), they are quasi-legitimate in the sense that they can be acknowledged as “legitimate” actors for the sake of diplomacy etc.
3. Deposing an illegitimate ruler is OK, unless
4. his deposition brings more easily foreseeable troubles than his staying in power.

Saddam was not a legitimate ruler. But the disastrous results of his deposition were too easy to predict.

Agreed, it’s a lot more nuanced that most people acknowledge. Although I was against the war Hitchens did make a good moral case for it. I remained opposed to the war but couldn’t quite claim a morally superior claim to my position.

403 bubba zanetti  Jun 12, 2014 3:18:10pm
404 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 3:18:31pm

State Department confirms US contractors in Balad, Iraq, are ‘being temporarily relocated by their companies’; embassy, consulate staffing hasn’t changed - @attackerman
see original on twitter.com

405 iossarian  Jun 12, 2014 3:19:00pm

re: #398 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Some thoughts.
1. Undemocratic rulers are illegitimate in principle.
2. Despite 1), they are quasi-legitimate in the sense that they can be acknowledged as “legitimate” actors for the sake of diplomacy etc.
3. Deposing an illegitimate ruler is OK, unless
4. his deposition brings more easily foreseeable troubles than his staying in power.

Saddam was not a legitimate ruler. But the disastrous results of his deposition were too easy to predict.

Interesting set of claims. I think this all falls into a gray area of “legitimacy” to be honest: the clear lesson of US involvement in the Middle East and Latin America, for me, over the past 50+ years, is that the best thing to do is virtually always to let countries figure out their own internal affairs and work diplomatically to influence them in democratic directions.

So I would agree with 2 and 4, disagree somewhat with 1 and disagree more strongly with 3.

406 BongCrodny  Jun 12, 2014 3:21:21pm

re: #385 Lidane

Peter Dinklage with a glow in the dark hula-hoop in a strip club.

If that’s the new version of “Clue,” I want two copies.

407 iossarian  Jun 12, 2014 3:21:33pm

Great idea for a new Jenga-style game: “Topple the Despot”. Complete with 1/3 scale figures of Saddam, Lenin and Mao.

Bound to be all the rage at Brookings Institution shindigs.

Got to go. Send the royalty checks to my underground lair.

408 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 3:24:20pm

re: #406 BongCrodny

If that’s the new version of “Clue,” I want two copies.

It’s a new game called What Does Tyrion Lannister REALLY Do In His Spare Time? Heh.

409 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 3:24:37pm

Mission accomplished.

410 piratedan  Jun 12, 2014 3:26:15pm

re: #403 bubba zanetti

and the freedom that we gave them was so incredibly awesome, the Iraqi’s themselves refuse to fight for it…. go figure…. maybe the brand of freedom that we “gave” them was defective…..

411 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 3:27:29pm

re: #399 Gus

Eh. Nothing. He’s worn that hat before. I’m sure this is bad optics for the neocons.

What’s the appropriate hat for today’s events? Fedora? Pork pie?

412 Lidane  Jun 12, 2014 3:28:16pm

And right on cue, my Tea Party wingnut friends on FB are bleating the OBAMA LOST ALL OUR GAINS IN IRAQ talking points. I can set my watch by their outrages. It’s entirely predictable.

413 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 3:29:33pm

re: #411 wrenchwench

What’s the appropriate hat for today’s events? Fedora? Pork pie?

Flak helmet.

414 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 3:30:02pm

Well, duh.

White House confirms President Obama met today with his national security team to discuss the situation in Iraq - @petermaercbs
see original on twitter.com

Why wouldn’t he?

415 Rocky-in-Connecticut  Jun 12, 2014 3:30:33pm

re: #261 Decatur Deb

War Tax you say?? Pay as you go???

The answer of course, at least from our stuck-at-age-19 Libertarians and neo-Con Repubs is to cut taxes to fund the war in Iraq. After all it worked the first time, right? Right? It didn’t? What are you some sort of Hippy-Commie-Socialist? Fox News told me it worked!!

416 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 3:31:28pm

re: #367 Pie-onist Overlord

NARCISSISTIC DUMBASSES ON DISPLAY

[Embedded content]

Hung with the ACLU even when they backed the Illinois Klan’s right to march in Cicero, but this crap is wearing thin.

417 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 12, 2014 3:32:02pm

More on that wreck…

418 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 3:32:32pm

re: #411 wrenchwench

What’s the appropriate hat for today’s events? Fedora? Pork pie?

It’s not about the hat, it’s about the hair shirt.

419 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 3:36:12pm

re: #416 Decatur Deb

Hung with the ACLU even when they backed the Illinois Klan’s right to march in Cicero, but this crap is wearing thin.

When they start defending thieves like that, I’m pretty done.

Just because a physical door is left unlocked at a business, does that mean you have the right to go in and take whatever you want, and tough shit if you hired me?

I don’t see Snowden as any kind of “white hat hacker” or whistleblower—I see him as a common thief without a scrap of ethics.

420 Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 12, 2014 3:36:37pm

re: #411 wrenchwench

What’s the appropriate hat for today’s events? Fedora? Pork pie?

Half a soccer football. Of course.

421 thedopefishlives  Jun 12, 2014 3:37:02pm

re: #411 wrenchwench

What’s the appropriate hat for today’s events? Fedora? Pork pie?

Without being disrespectful, would a dunce hat work?

422 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 3:39:12pm

re: #421 thedopefishlives

Without being disrespectful, would a dunce hat work?

Well, we’re talking about Jay Carney, who doesn’t deserve that as much as some others….

423 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 3:39:41pm

re: #405 iossarian

Interesting set of claims. I think this all falls into a gray area of “legitimacy” to be honest: the clear lesson of US involvement in the Middle East and Latin America, for me, over the past 50+ years, is that the best thing to do is virtually always to let countries figure out their own internal affairs and work diplomatically to influence them in democratic directions.

So I would agree with 2 and 4, disagree somewhat with 1 and disagree more strongly with 3.

How illegitimate is Abdullah II of Jordan?

424 thedopefishlives  Jun 12, 2014 3:40:11pm

re: #422 wrenchwench

Well, we’re talking about Jay Carney, who doesn’t deserve that as much as some others….

Okay, I’ll buy that. But now I have this beautiful dunce cap and no one to wear it.

Where’s Dim Jim Hoft when you need him?

425 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 3:41:28pm

re: #405 iossarian

Interesting set of claims. I think this all falls into a gray area of “legitimacy” to be honest: the clear lesson of US involvement in the Middle East and Latin America, for me, over the past 50+ years, is that the best thing to do is virtually always to let countries figure out their own internal affairs and work diplomatically to influence them in democratic directions.

So I would agree with 2 and 4, disagree somewhat with 1 and disagree more strongly with 3.

I understand your perspective, probably weary of toppling the legitimate govts for some right-wing dictators who only brought more misery to their people (declared illegitimate only because of their left-wing views). And yes, it does hinge on the probably unattainable definition of legitimacy. E.g. some may define “legitimate” as “supported by the people. no matter what”. Nevertheless, I would say that illegitimate=undemocratic, where democracy=majority rules, minority rights (that is, not to be confused with ochlocracy). Probably can’t get more precise than this. Once you have minority rights (certainly not an exact concept in itself, and period/culture-dependent at that,) as a part of the picture, I don’t see why someone who just spits on those rights should be thought of as legitimate, although he can certainly be quasi-legitimate for the sake of interstate relationships (see the US-Saudi relations, for example).

426 goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2014 3:42:01pm

Maliki’s government and army are horribly corrupt and inept, based on sectarian appointment instead of skill or ability. If we did answer his earlier pleas for airstrikes without getting some fundamental reform we’d be rescuing his shit forever. An army with even a modicum of competence doesn’t run when it outnumbers it’s foes by a factor of almost 40 to 1.

Contrary to what Killgore has asserted the post-war Iraqi government was never stable, no government that intrinsically dysfunctional can logically be called stable. It can be lucky for a time, but sooner or later its intrinsic flaws are going to have disastrous consequences.

427 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 12, 2014 3:42:18pm
428 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 3:42:43pm

re: #423 Decatur Deb

How illegitimate is Abdullah II of Jordan?

I would claim none of the modern monarchies have any legitimacy but that’s me.

429 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 3:44:40pm

re: #428 Killgore Trout

I would claim none of the modern monarchies have any legitimacy but that’s me.

Is he less legitimate than Rouhani, the president of Iran?

430 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 3:46:55pm

re: #367 Pie-onist Overlord

NARCISSISTIC DUMBASSES ON DISPLAY

[Embedded content]

Did they do a Turing test on “Snowden”?
//

431 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 3:47:25pm

re: #423 Decatur Deb

How illegitimate is Abdullah II of Jordan?

Not at all. He is, however, quasi-legitimate. But then, so is Putin.

432 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 3:49:16pm

re: #431 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Not at all. He is, however, quasi-legitimate. But then, so is Putin.

So it looks like quasi-legitimacy is a lot more important than legitimacy, on any given Wednesday. Why don’t we just make the distinction between ‘legitimate’ and ‘nice’.

433 dog philosopher  Jun 12, 2014 3:49:39pm

as long as saddam remained a dictator within the borders of iraq, he was properly the iraqi people’s problem to deal with, not ours

us getting rid of him instead of the iraqi people doing it merely treated iraqis as if they were incapable children

if the iraqi people had got rid of him themselves, then maybe the resulting government would have been stronger, and maybe there would have been less chaos and bloodshed in the aftermath. maybe

as it turned out, the iraqi people went from a brutal dictatorship to a country where you could get your head blown off in a public place at any minute, and, as we now see, life under a fragile government that isn’t strong enough to defend itself

assad the younger hasn’t done any better in syria, since he now “rules” about one third of a country that he has fatally weakened in the past few years

the net result is that syria and iraq are both fatally compromised systems that are easy prey to opportunistic infections

434 dog philosopher  Jun 12, 2014 3:50:21pm

re: #433 dog philosopher

but just call me captain obvious

435 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 3:51:34pm
436 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 3:51:41pm

re: #434 dog philosopher

but just call me captain obvious

You’re Captain Obvious.

437 Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2014 3:52:15pm

It’s really getting to be difficult keeping up with the disaster du jour. They seem to be hitting us at warp speed now.

438 dog philosopher  Jun 12, 2014 3:53:21pm

re: #436 Decatur Deb

You’re Captain Obvious.

thank you

now call me a taxi

439 klys  Jun 12, 2014 3:53:43pm

re: #438 dog philosopher

thank you

now call me a taxi

Hi taxi, nice to meet you.

440 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 3:54:21pm

re: #439 klys

Hi taxi, nice to meet you.

Think he’s a taxi-wannabe.

441 GeneJockey  Jun 12, 2014 3:55:30pm

re: #438 dog philosopher

thank you

now call me a taxi

“Watson! Call me a hansom cab!”

“Oh, Holmes - you hansom cab!”

442 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 3:55:34pm

re: #432 Decatur Deb

So it looks like quasi-legitimacy is a lot more important than legitimacy, on any given Wednesday. Why don’t we just make the distinction between ‘legitimate’ and ‘nice’.

I can imagine a “nice” dictator who is basically a 99% liberal, an enlightened monarch, who is “with us on everything but” elections. Still illegitimate, but sorta nice, OK. Doesn’t exist too. Never had, never will.

In the real world it’s the choice between bad and awful, or, in some cases, between not that bad and bad. Nice is too relative :)

443 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 12, 2014 3:55:44pm
444 Kragar  Jun 12, 2014 3:56:47pm
445 Bubblehead II  Jun 12, 2014 3:57:21pm

Night Lizards. May the Deity of your choice smile down upon you and yours.

446 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 4:00:52pm

re: #442 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

I can imagine a “nice” dictator who is basically a 99% liberal, an enlightened monarch, who is “with us on everything but” elections. Still illegitimate, but sorta nice, OK. Doesn’t exist too. Never had, never will.

In the real world it’s the choice between bad and awful, or, in some cases, between not that bad and bad. Nice is too relative :)

Not many elected rulers meet that bar. For the most part, I’d go with “not soaked in your people’s blood, we can do business.”

447 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 4:04:41pm

re: #429 Decatur Deb

Is he less legitimate than Rouhani, the president of Iran?

Not very. Iranian “democracy” is basically the old Soviet model; Approved candidates are selected by the clerics so it’s a very loose interpretation of the democratic concept. I would consider Iran a theocracy with a little democracy thrown in for flavor.

448 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 4:06:37pm

re: #447 Killgore Trout

Not very. Iranian “democracy” is basically the old Soviet model; Approved candidates are selected by the clerics so it’s a very loose interpretation of the democratic concept. I would consider Iran a theocracy with a little democracy thrown in for flavor.

Got this ugly feeling that if George Washington and Thomas Jefferson supervised utterly free elections in most of the ME, Africa and S. America, we would not like the results.

449 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:06:47pm
450 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:07:13pm

re: #446 Decatur Deb

In a democratic system an elected ruler doesn’t have to meet the bar 100% - because he’s constrained in what he can do…

451 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 4:08:08pm

ISIS Shelling Kurdish Peshmerga-controlled Areas South of Kirkuk

Kurdish Peshmerga leaders say that the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) has began shelling areas south of Kirkuk, where Peshmerga forces stepped in to fill in deserted Iraqi Army positions.

In response the Kurdistan Regional Government’s (KRG) Deputy Minister of Peshmerga, Anwar Haji Osman, urged Arab tribes in the region “not to let their territories be used by the ISIS for shelling other areas.”

452 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 4:09:14pm

re: #448 Decatur Deb

Got this ugly feeling that if George Washington and Thomas Jefferson supervised utterly free elections in most of the ME, Africa and S. America, we would not like the results.

Neither would the locals, I think the Arab spring proved that point. Democracy is not a magic bullet.

453 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 12, 2014 4:11:09pm

re: #430 GeneJockey

Did they do a Turing test on “Snowden”?
//

The photo reminded me of this:

454 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:11:41pm

re: #432 Decatur Deb

So it looks like quasi-legitimacy is a lot more important than legitimacy

Just to be sure, it’s about the moral qualms while toppling some ruler or another :) Obviously, there’s no such formal thing as “quasi-legitimate” in international diplomacy. Which is perhaps a shame..

455 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 4:12:14pm

re: #450 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

In a democratic system an elected ruler doesn’t have to meet the bar 100% - because he’s constrained in what he can do…

So is a feudal lord or a theocrat. The constraints are just built into a different system.

456 Kid A  Jun 12, 2014 4:12:57pm
457 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 4:13:10pm

re: #454 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Just to be sure, it’s about the moral qualms while toppling some ruler or another :) Obviously, there’s no such formal thing as “quasi-legitimate” in international diplomacy. Which is perhaps a shame..

Legitimacy, then, is the consensus of your better-armed neighbors.

458 Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 12, 2014 4:13:38pm

re: #439 klys

Hi taxi, nice to meet you.

No new taxi-s!

459 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:14:24pm
460 Kid A  Jun 12, 2014 4:15:55pm

I’m curious what W is thinking (I know, a BIG stretch) about Iraq right now.

461 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:16:18pm

re: #455 Decatur Deb

So is a feudal lord or a theocrat. The constraints are just built into a different system.

Sure, but we’re talking about a specific system and not any other. The system that conforms to the proffered definition.

462 goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2014 4:17:00pm
She opened the door thinking it was her husband. She said a masked man wearing gloves began punching her in the face, cursing and shouting nasty remarks about Muslims.

The suspect hit her repeatedly and asked about money and gold.

“The irony is the individual thought the family was Muslim, and they’re actually refugees from Iraq who are Catholic,” explained officer Simon Drobik, of the Albuquerque Police Department.

The family fled Iraq six years ago, since they’d been attacked by terrorists there. Last year they became U.S. citizens.

The suspect ransacked the family’s home, stole jewelry and money. He also found the family’s citizenship documents in a back room and ripped them to pieces in front of Jaber.

463 Kid A  Jun 12, 2014 4:17:32pm

You break it, you own it!!!

464 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:17:32pm

re: #460 Kid A

I’m curious what W is thinking (I know, a BIG stretch) about Iraq right now.

If he’s interviewed, he might stick to his ole position, regardless… So we might never know.

465 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:18:05pm
466 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:18:06pm

House GOP about to go full metal wingnut but hooray Cantor’s gone! Oops, wait. Derp.

467 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:18:49pm

re: #463 Kid A

You break it, you own it!!!

Thought that in 2004. Main reason I voted for Bush in 2004. Been 10 years. Sorry. Time’s up!

468 Tigger2  Jun 12, 2014 4:18:52pm

re: #274 NJDhockeyfan

Horrifying…

‘They lined the streets with the decapitated heads of police and soldiers’: Iraqi refugee reveals the horrors of the jihadi takeover as Baghdad vows to fight back

Well maybe if the Iraqi Army would have stayed and fought instead of running like scared kids that wouldn’t have happened. And yes it is horrible.

469 CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2014 4:19:10pm

re: #409 Gus

Richard Engel
@RichardEngel

#Isis declares end to the Iraq-Syria border drawn by western powers carving up the Ottoman Empire after WWI. that’s the core of much of this
3:31 PM - 12 Jun 2014

Mission accomplished.

Yeah, their mention of the Sykes-Picot Agreement made me immediately uneasy as it goes back to the defeat & breakup of the Ottoman Empire and was a treaty1 quickly followed by the Balfour Declaration, then later Mandatory Palestine. Those of you familiar with your 20th century Mideast history will know that these things also eventually led to the establishment of the State of Israel, which declared its independence on the same day—May 14, 1948—that the British Mandate for Palestine was due to end (at midnight).

KT and satt were poking fun at me last night for going back to the early and mid 20th century, perhaps thinking that I was just playing some kind of game. I wasn’t—you can draw a direct line from that time to the present with ISIS propaganda outlets actually boasting that “the organization is in the process of restoring the caliphate, and erasing the lines secretly drawn by French diplomat François George-Picot and his British counterpart Mark Sykes before the end of World War I.”

As a matter of fact, it was even mentioned and predicted earlier this year by the Brookings Institution: The End of Sykes-Picot? Reflections on the Prospect of the Arab State System (PDF)

You may take them seriously or just consider it pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking, but either way it could cause a shitload of trouble all across the region.

———————————————————

1.) It was right before this treaty that the British first discussed Zionism (at the cabinet level).

470 Kid A  Jun 12, 2014 4:19:45pm

If there really is a great yaya in the sky, man, is W is going to have a lot of explaining to do when he has his sit-down.

471 RealityBasedSteve  Jun 12, 2014 4:19:59pm

re: #417 NJDhockeyfan

More on that wreck…

[Embedded content]

That’s about 30 miles North and very slightly East of Nashville. It’s got I-65 closed all the way to the KY border right now. Weather here has been pretty much clear and dry, so not wx. related most likely.

RBS

472 Dr Lizardo  Jun 12, 2014 4:20:51pm

re: #456 Kid A

[Embedded content]

Heh.

Sort of reminds me of something my dad once said in a very gallows-humor vein.

“If we don’t find any nerve gas or whatever we’re looking for, we better plant something there, or we’re gonna look like the biggest assholes in the world.”

My father wasn’t too thrilled with the invasion of Iraq; he was a WWII vet, and like he said, “America doesn’t just go around invading other countries for no good reason. I fought in a war against a country who did just that starting in the 1930s, and the reason was to send the message once and for all you don’t do that kind of shit. I never imagined we’d end up doing what we’re supposed to be against.”

473 Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2014 4:21:09pm

HOW IRAQ TURNS INTO VIETNAM BEFORE OUR VERY EYES

And if it does, Hillary Clinton can kiss her presidential ambitions good-by.

esquire.com

474 Patricia Kayden  Jun 12, 2014 4:22:57pm

re: #473 Skip Intro

Why would it be the kiss of death to Clinton’s presidential aspirations? Do you think those of us who are terrified of Republicans would not vote for her and let a Republican crazy person get into the White House?

475 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:22:58pm

re: #457 Decatur Deb

Legitimacy, then, is the consensus of your better-armed neighbors.

There’s theory and there’s practice. In practice you’re likely to get robbed in a bad neighborhood if you’re flashing your thick wallet too much, whether it’s moral in theory or not. Does not mean that moral nihilism should win the day.

476 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:23:45pm

re: #469 CuriousLurker

Mission accomplished.

Yeah, their mention of the Sykes-Picot Agreement made me immediately uneasy as it goes back to the defeat & breakup of the Ottoman Empire and was a treaty1 quickly followed by the Balfour Declaration, then later Mandatory Palestine. Those of you familiar with your 20th century Mideast history will know that these things also eventually led to the establishment of the State of Israel, which declared its independence on the same day—May 14, 1948—that the British Mandate for Palestine was due to end (at midnight).

KT and satt were poking fun at me last night for going back to the early and mid 20th century, perhaps thinking that I was just playing some kind of game. I wasn’t—you can draw a direct line from that time to the present with ISIS propaganda outlets actually boasting that “the organization is in the process of restoring the caliphate, and erasing the lines secretly drawn by French diplomat François George-Picot and his British counterpart Mark Sykes before the end of World War I.”

As a matter of fact, it was even mentioned and predicted earlier this year by the Brookings Institutution: The End of Sykes-Picot? Reflections on the Prospect of the Arab State System (PDF)

You may take them seriously or just consider it pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking, but either way it could cause a shitload of trouble all across the region.

———————————————————

1.) It was right before this treaty that the British first discussed Zionism (at the cabinet level).

And someone mentioned this beginning around WWI yesterday. A lot of this goes back a very long time. Groups like ISIS think about these things while Americans continue to ignore the deeper historical context and look for quick and easy macho military solutions through military hardware.

477 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:24:49pm

re: #469 CuriousLurker

You almost have a page here too. :D

478 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 4:25:05pm

re: #475 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

There’s theory and there’s practice. In practice you’re likely to get robbed in a bad neighborhood if you’re flashing your thick wallet too much, whether it’s moral in theory or not. Does not mean that moral nihilism should win the day.

If there was ever a moral nation, it lasted until the afternoon of contact with the first sailing ship.

479 Kid A  Jun 12, 2014 4:25:28pm
480 CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2014 4:25:41pm

re: #477 Gus

You almost have a page here too. :D

LOL, inorite?

481 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:25:54pm

re: #472 Dr Lizardo

we better plant something there

I, for one, appreciate that the US didn’t.

482 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 4:26:12pm

re: #460 Kid A

I’m curious what W is thinking (I know, a BIG stretch) about Iraq right now.

I’m flattered!

oh, wait…

483 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:29:03pm

re: #478 Decatur Deb

If there was ever a moral nation, it lasted until the afternoon of contact with the first sailing ship.

We are all far from ideal. But surely there is something to strive for.

484 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 4:29:23pm

re: #481 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

I, for one, appreciate that the US didn’t.

I had predicted we would. Nice to be wrong, though a large minority of us just managed to lie about it.

485 Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2014 4:29:24pm

re: #474 Patricia Kayden

Why would it be the kiss of death to Clinton’s presidential aspirations? Do you think those of us who are terrified of Republicans would not vote for her and let a Republican crazy person get into the White House?

Because she’s Sec of State and this will be the second Big Fuckup on her watch that the GOP will pin on her. It’s not about who you’ll vote for; it’s about how motivated the GOP and Independents will be to vote against her.

The Republicans already have decades of old crap to throw at her; to them this is a gift from God.

I truly hope the Dems have someone else waiting in the wings, because she may just decide life’s too short to spend fighting off another full attack from the GOP and it’s minions.

486 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:30:10pm

Don’t blame Bush! This is all clearly the fault of Obama’s Cairo speech!

//

487 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:30:23pm

I joke but I know how those small little brains work.

488 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 12, 2014 4:30:27pm

re: #471 RealityBasedSteve

That’s about 30 miles North and very slightly East of Nashville. It’s got I-65 closed all the way to the KY border right now. Weather here has been pretty much clear and dry, so not wx. related most likely.

RBS

I’ll be taking 31W all the way home. It’s going to be a slow ride following all that traffic.

489 Dr Lizardo  Jun 12, 2014 4:31:18pm

re: #481 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

I, for one, appreciate that the US didn’t.

As do I. I know he meant it in a dark-humored way; that the verdict of history would be that we invaded a country on a trumped-up pretext, and thereby put ourselves into some rather dubious company in the history books.

490 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:31:35pm

re: #486 Gus

Don’t blame Bush! This is all clearly the fault of Obama’s Cairo speech!

//

HUH? WHAT SPEECH?

491 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:32:07pm

I’m old enough to remember the right-wingers blaming Bill Clinton for Osama bin Laden “getting away” and thus attacking on 9/11.

492 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 4:32:10pm

re: #485 Skip Intro

I truly hope the Dems have someone else waiting in the wings

There’s one waiting in the West Wing.

493 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:32:23pm

But. Don’t mention Bush. The chief architect of this mess.

494 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 4:33:15pm

re: #492 wrenchwench

There’s one waiting in the West Wing.

Malia needs a lot more seasoning first.

495 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 4:33:22pm

re: #485 Skip Intro

Because she’s Sec of State and this will be the second Big Fuckup on her watch that the GOP will pin on her. It’s not about who you’ll vote for; it’s about how motivated the GOP and Independents will be to vote against her.

The Republicans already have decades of old crap to throw at her; to them this is a gift from God.

I truly hope the Dems have someone else waiting in the wings, because she may just decide life’s too short to spend fighting off another full attack from the GOP and it’s minions.

The alternative line of reasoning is “Bring it On!”.

Making an election issue out of an Iraq debacle is not without great risk for the GOP. After all, it is primarily their clusterfuck.

The Democrats can’t run scared of the output of the GOP noise machine. That would be as ridiculous as 30,000 running away from 800.

496 Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2014 4:33:38pm

re: #476 Gus

And someone mentioned this beginning around WWI yesterday. A lot of this goes back a very long time. Groups like ISIS think about these things while Americans continue to ignore the deeper historical context and look for quick and easy macho military solutions through military hardware.

Damn near everything really bad thing that happened in the 20th century happened as a consequence of WWI and how the winning powers divided up the spoils and assigned reparations.

We’re still paying for it today, and will keep paying as far as the eye can see.

497 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 4:33:50pm

B U S H
E
E
S

498 Snarknado!  Jun 12, 2014 4:34:09pm

re: #485 Skip Intro

Because she’s Sec of State and this will be the second Big Fuckup on her watch that the GOP will pin on her. It’s not about who you’ll vote for; it’s about how motivated the GOP and Independents will be to vote against her.

The Republicans already have decades of old crap to throw at her; to them this is a gift from God.

I truly hope the Dems have someone else waiting in the wings, because she may just decide life’s too short to spend fighting off another full attack from the GOP and it’s minions.

People turned out for Obama in 2012 — I expect they will for her too, if it comes to that.

499 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 4:34:12pm

re: #494 Decatur Deb

Malia needs a lot more seasoning first.

She’s gonna be good though.

500 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 4:35:08pm

re: #496 Skip Intro

Damn near everything really bad thing that happened in the 20th century happened as a consequence of WWI and how the winning powers divided up the spoils and assigned reparations.

We’re still paying for it today, and will keep paying as far as the eye can see.

Good Serb with a gun.

501 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:35:27pm

re: #493 Gus

But. Don’t mention Bush. The chief architect of this mess.

You know, in some way Bush is an excuse. The whole system was rotten. Many will say it still is, but I’m not an absolutist, I think it matters who is in charge. Bush was, but so was Cheney, so was Rove, so was the merry band of neocons… It’s not only Bush.

502 b.d.  Jun 12, 2014 4:35:32pm

OBAMA LET IRAQ GO TO HELL SO IT WOULD RUIN BUSH’S LEGACY

503 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:36:16pm

re: #497 wrenchwench

How did the bees thing get started?

504 Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2014 4:37:26pm

re: #495 EPR-radar

The alternative line of reasoning is “Bring it On!”.

Making an election issue out of an Iraq debacle is not without great risk for the GOP. After all, it is primarily their clusterfuck.

The Democrats can’t run scared of the output of the GOP noise machine. That would be as ridiculous as 30,000 running away from 800.

Maybe it would just be better is the nominee wasn’t another Clinton. I know I’m in the minority here, but I’m also well acquainted with the still seething hatred of this woman that still exists even in liberal California. It approaches, and may even exceed the level directed at Obama.

505 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:37:28pm

re: #501 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

You know, in some way Bush is an excuse. The whole system was rotten. Many will say it still is, but I’m not an absolutist, I think it matters who is in charge. Bush was, but so was Cheney, so was Rove, so was the merry band of neocons… It’s not only Bush.

I’m not exactly going to type out the complete list.

506 Tigger2  Jun 12, 2014 4:38:05pm

More GOP Hypocrisy after crying about the debt.

msnbc.com

house-gop-approves-more-tax-breaks-without-paying-them

507 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 4:38:06pm

re: #503 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

How did the bees thing get started?

I have forgotten. It must have been that meddling Charles, with his constant performance of snark, disdain and superiority.

508 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 4:38:29pm

re: #496 Skip Intro

Damn near everything really bad thing that happened in the 20th century happened as a consequence of WWI and how the winning powers divided up the spoils and assigned reparations.

We’re still paying for it today, and will keep paying as far as the eye can see.

Good point. Very ironic for a war that had such unclear reasons for starting. The assassination of the arch-duke certainly wasn’t the real reason.

509 Snarknado!  Jun 12, 2014 4:38:35pm

re: #501 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

You know, in some way Bush is an excuse. The whole system was rotten. Many will say it still is, but I’m not an absolutist, I think it matters who is in charge. Bush was, bur so was Cheney, so was Rove, so was the merry band of neocons… It’s not only Bush.

Not the whole system. Do you think President Gore would have invaded Iraq?

510 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:39:13pm

re: #505 Gus

I’m not exactly going to type out the complete list.

Fair enough. That said, Bush wasn’t exactly the brightest bulb, so, yes, lots of ppl are responsible.

511 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:39:55pm

re: #509 Snarknado!

Not the whole system. Do you think President Gore would have invaded Iraq?

The whole system under Bush.

512 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 4:40:07pm

re: #504 Skip Intro

Maybe it would just be better is the nominee wasn’t another Clinton. I know I’m in the minority here, but I’m also well acquainted with the still seething hatred of this woman that still exists even in liberal California. It approaches, and may even exceed the level directed at Obama.

Nate Silver can pick my Democratic candidate. Just get me the one most likely to crush Rand/Ted.

513 Patricia Kayden  Jun 12, 2014 4:40:21pm

re: #485 Skip Intro

Don’t you think that Republicans are going to be super motivated to vote against any Dem candidate after 8 years of President Obama, who they hate with all their being?

There is no Democratic candidate who is not going to work them up into a frenzy. As long as Democrats get out there and vote (like they did in 2008 and 2012), Secretary Clinton should win easily.

514 RealityBasedSteve  Jun 12, 2014 4:41:00pm

Saw this on the way home tonight. It just seems apt.

Republicans for Voldemort

515 sagehen  Jun 12, 2014 4:41:33pm

OT: Goldbert and Ta-Nehisi discussing TNC’s reparations piece… livestreaming.

theatlantic.com

516 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 4:41:53pm

re: #504 Skip Intro

Maybe it would just be better is the nominee wasn’t another Clinton. I know I’m in the minority here, but I’m also well acquainted with the still seething hatred of this woman that still exists even in liberal California. It approaches, and may even exceed the level directed at Obama.

I’d be perfectly content with a capable non-Clinton (D) nominee, and other things being equal I’d prefer to end political dynasties. However, it is essential for the (D) to win in 2016 and if Clinton is the best shot for that, I’m all in.

As for the seething hatred, let it be exposed. Ignoring it sure as hell doesn’t make it go away.

Maybe that will finally get the fence-sitters and swing voters to turn decisively against the GOP until it returns to civilized ways.

517 Snarknado!  Jun 12, 2014 4:42:02pm

re: #511 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

The whole system under Bush.

That I agree with.

518 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 4:42:02pm

re: #508 EPR-radar

Good point. Very ironic for a war that had such unclear reasons for starting. The assassination of the arch-duke certainly wasn’t the real reason.

No, but it pulled the last remaining prop out from under Bismarck’s ferris wheel.

519 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:42:11pm

re: #510 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Fair enough. That said, Bush wasn’t exactly the brightest bulb, so, yes, lots of ppl are responsible.

George HW Bush, along with Powell, however may have been vindicated here for that time he decided not to chase the Iranian army to Baghdad during the Gulf War.

520 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 4:42:16pm

re: #503 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

How did the bees thing get started?

Oh, yeah. There was a truck wreck that was full of hives about a week ago.

521 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 4:43:17pm

re: #507 wrenchwench

I have forgotten. It must have been that meddling Charles, with his constant performance of snark, disdain and superiority.

I’m exhausted from it. Really. It’s hard work.

522 Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2014 4:43:38pm

re: #502 b.d.

OBAMA LET IRAQ GO TO HELL SO IT WOULD RUIN BUSH’S LEGACY

You may think you’re kidding, but that’s exactly what the Republican message will be, and at least 40% of the country will buy it.

523 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 4:44:03pm
524 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:44:21pm

re: #521 Charles Johnson

I’m exhausted from it. Really. It’s hard work.

You need to work harder because thus far you don’t have a cologne named after you.

//

525 Snarknado!  Jun 12, 2014 4:44:48pm

re: #522 Skip Intro

You may think you’re kidding, but that’s exactly what the Republican message will be, and at least 40% of the country will buy it.

As long as it’s not 47%.

526 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 4:45:16pm

re: #524 Gus

You need to work harder because thus far you don’t have a cologne named after you.

//

I bet Mr. Beaumont does.

/

527 Patricia Kayden  Jun 12, 2014 4:45:29pm

re: #504 Skip Intro

On what is the seething hatred based? I know Secretary Clinton isn’t everyone’s cup of tea (she wasn’t mine in 2008) but given the alternative, I’m sure that liberals in California and elsewhere will vote for her.

One day Americans may expand their political system to include more than two viable, competing parties (like most other western democracies) but until then, we vote for the better of the two presidential candidates.

528 Kid A  Jun 12, 2014 4:45:58pm

In other news, Governor Perry compared being gay to being an alcoholic.

529 Snarknado!  Jun 12, 2014 4:46:10pm

BBL.

530 Decatur Deb  Jun 12, 2014 4:46:10pm

re: #526 wrenchwench

I bet Mr. Beaumont does.

/

Stinky After Dark?

531 klys  Jun 12, 2014 4:46:53pm

re: #527 Patricia Kayden

On what is the seething hatred based? I know Secretary Clinton isn’t everyone’s cup of tea (she wasn’t mine in 2008) but given the alternative, I’m sure that liberals in California and elsewhere will vote for her.

One day Americans may expand their political system to include more than two viable, competing parties (like most other western democracies) but until then, we vote for the better of the two presidential candidates.

Or at least for the party less keen on turning this country into a Christian theocratic oligarchy.

532 Ding-an-sich Wannabe  Jun 12, 2014 4:46:55pm

re: #526 wrenchwench

I bet Mr. Beaumont does.

/

Wazzat called? “Lil” Green Brie”?

533 Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2014 4:47:02pm

re: #516 EPR-radar

I’d be perfectly content with a capable non-Clinton (D) nominee, and other things being equal I’d prefer to end political dynasties. However, it is essential for the (D) to win in 2016 and if Clinton is the best shot for that, I’m all in.

As for the seething hatred, let it be exposed. Ignoring it sure as hell doesn’t make it go away.

Maybe that will finally get the fence-sitters and swing voters to turn decisively against the GOP until it returns to civilized ways.

Having your opponents motivated by seething hatred is never a good thing, because, as we’ve seen, hatred is one hell of a motivator to get out and vote.

I’m not a big Joe Biden fan, but I just don’t see the Right being able to gin up the 120 proof hatred against him that they will against someone named Hillary Clinton.

534 Kid A  Jun 12, 2014 4:47:33pm

re: #519 Gus

George HW Bush, along with Powell, however may have been vindicated here for that time he decided not to chase the Iranian army to Baghdad during the Gulf War.

Remember this oldie from 2003? THIS TIME, FINISH THE DAMN JOB!!!

535 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 4:48:17pm

re: #532 Ding-an-sich Wannabe

Wazzat called? “Lil” Green Brie”?

Gorgonzola de Stinky.

No, that’s redundant.

536 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:48:36pm
537 RealityBasedSteve  Jun 12, 2014 4:48:50pm

re: #524 Gus

You need to work harder because thus far you don’t have a cologne named after you.

//

Yes, he does….

Charlie… it smells like smoky, sweaty jazz

538 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 4:49:05pm

re: #527 Patricia Kayden

On what is the seething hatred based? I know Secretary Clinton isn’t everyone’s cup of tea (she wasn’t mine in 2008) but given the alternative, I’m sure that liberals in California and elsewhere will vote for her.

One day Americans may expand their political system to include more than two viable, competing parties (like most other western democracies) but until then, we vote for the better of the two presidential candidates.

As far as I know, it starts with rancid conspiracy theory shit from the RWNJ chorus of the damned in the 90s (Vince Foster etc. etc.), and adds misogyny and two decades of rot.

In other words, a more rancid streak of filth than usual for the GOP sewer, but nothing essentially different.

539 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:49:15pm

re: #534 Kid A

Remember this oldie from 2003? THIS TIME, FINISH THE DAMN JOB!!!

They should have listened to Cheney/Powell circa 1991! :D

You really can’t make this stuff up.

540 Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2014 4:49:22pm

re: #519 Gus

George HW Bush, along with Powell, however may have been vindicated here for that time he decided not to chase the Iranian army to Baghdad during the Gulf War.

I thought he already was. Smartest thing he ever did. Too bad Junior didn’t follow suit.

541 klys  Jun 12, 2014 4:50:12pm

So dinner tonight is chipotle pork and I just got the pork marinating. I really wish there was like a cooking basics class I could go take on how to do some of the general kitchen skills like knifework and whatnot, because that’s one thing I never learned at home - Mom cooked, but not like that a lot of the time? And I’m still kind of making up shit as I go along on the whole “trimming the pork” thing.

I pulled the lid off the food processor after making the marinade and my eyes started burning. This should be good.

542 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:50:50pm

“Once you’ve got Baghdad, it’s not clear what you do with it.”

Dick Cheney

1991

543 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 4:51:12pm

re: #530 Decatur Deb

Stinky After Dark?

Stinky d’homme

544 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:51:46pm

Bwahahaha!

545 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:52:17pm

If you’re going to go in and try to topple Saddam Hussein, you have to go to Baghdad. Once you’ve got Baghdad, it’s not clear what you do with it. It’s not clear what kind of government you would put in place of the one that’s currently there now. Is it going to be a Shia regime, a Sunni regime or a Kurdish regime? Or one that tilts toward the Baathists, or one that tilts toward the Islamic fundamentalists? How much credibility is that government going to have if it’s set up by the United States military when it’s there? How long does the United States military have to stay to protect the people that sign on for that government, and what happens to it once we leave?

— Dick Cheney, 1991

546 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 4:53:08pm

re: #533 Skip Intro

Having your opponents motivated by seething hatred is never a good thing, because, as we’ve seen, hatred is one hell of a motivator to get out and vote.

I’m not a big Joe Biden fan, but I just don’t see the Right being able to gin up the 120 proof hatred against him that they will against someone named Hillary Clinton.

The GOP base already includes those who will crawl over broken glass to vote against their enemies.

I do not believe for a minute that their intensity varies significantly from election to election any more.

If instead you are talking about otherwise liberal people who specifically hate Hillary Clinton, that would be a different story and could be an issue. I don’t see much evidence of that in the news.

547 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 4:53:16pm

re: #545 Gus

If you’re going to go in and try to topple Saddam Hussein, you have to go to Baghdad. Once you’ve got Baghdad, it’s not clear what you do with it. It’s not clear what kind of government you would put in place of the one that’s currently there now. Is it going to be a Shia regime, a Sunni regime or a Kurdish regime? Or one that tilts toward the Baathists, or one that tilts toward the Islamic fundamentalists? How much credibility is that government going to have if it’s set up by the United States military when it’s there? How long does the United States military have to stay to protect the people that sign on for that government, and what happens to it once we leave?

— Dick Cheney, 1991

Looks like all the unknowns were known.

548 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:54:16pm

re: #547 wrenchwench

Looks like all the unknowns were known.

Ha! Indeed! But. There was 9/11. Another Pearl Harbor to take advantage of! Good times.

549 Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2014 4:54:18pm

re: #538 EPR-radar

As far as I know, it starts with rancid conspiracy theory shit from the RWNJ chorus of the damned in the 90s (Vince Foster etc. etc.), and adds misogyny and two decades of rot.

In other words, a more rancid streak of filth than usual for the GOP sewer, but nothing essentially different.

Exactly. Rush Limbaugh proclaiming on his show that Vince foster had been murdered in a secret NY apartment owned by Hillary Clinton. Billing Records. Cattle Futures. Whitewater. Travelgate. Probably another half dozen things I’ve forgotten about.

I think people are either too young or have forgotten the avalanche of shit unleashed by the right against all things Clinton. They haven’t forgotten it though, and with Fox News and talk radio it’s all going to become new again.

I really wonder if Hillary is willing to go through it again.

550 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 4:54:34pm

re: #545 Gus

If you’re going to go in and try to topple Saddam Hussein, you have to go to Baghdad. Once you’ve got Baghdad, it’s not clear what you do with it. It’s not clear what kind of government you would put in place of the one that’s currently there now. Is it going to be a Shia regime, a Sunni regime or a Kurdish regime? Or one that tilts toward the Baathists, or one that tilts toward the Islamic fundamentalists? How much credibility is that government going to have if it’s set up by the United States military when it’s there? How long does the United States military have to stay to protect the people that sign on for that government, and what happens to it once we leave?

— Dick Cheney, 1991

Problem is, we went through this in 2003 & no one cared. We were traitors and they were patriots. Propaganda won, they bought the putrid hypocritical bullshit.

551 Justanotherhuman  Jun 12, 2014 4:56:36pm

re: #545 Gus

If you’re going to go in and try to topple Saddam Hussein, you have to go to Baghdad. Once you’ve got Baghdad, it’s not clear what you do with it. It’s not clear what kind of government you would put in place of the one that’s currently there now. Is it going to be a Shia regime, a Sunni regime or a Kurdish regime? Or one that tilts toward the Baathists, or one that tilts toward the Islamic fundamentalists? How much credibility is that government going to have if it’s set up by the United States military when it’s there? How long does the United States military have to stay to protect the people that sign on for that government, and what happens to it once we leave?

— Dick Cheney, 1991

Cheney guessed big and lost.

552 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 4:57:04pm

re: #541 klys

So dinner tonight is chipotle pork and I just got the pork marinating. I really wish there was like a cooking basics class I could go take on how to do some of the general kitchen skills like knifework and whatnot, because that’s one thing I never learned at home - Mom cooked, but not like that a lot of the time? And I’m still kind of making up shit as I go along on the whole “trimming the pork” thing.

I pulled the lid off the food processor after making the marinade and my eyes started burning. This should be good.

There must be some Julia Child videos somewhere. Or try here, especially here.

553 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 4:57:11pm

And yeah, it stings. Even more today because this shitshow was predicted. Before I ever heard the name Barack Hussien Obama.

554 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:57:11pm
555 Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2014 4:57:53pm

re: #546 EPR-radar

If instead you are talking about otherwise liberal people who specifically hate Hillary Clinton, that would be a different story and could be an issue. I don’t see much evidence of that in the news.

If Iraq goes to shit and if we end up sending troops there again I think a lot of people on the left are going to be, at the least, disenchanted with the Administration and everyone who was involved in that decision. That certainly would include Hillary Clinton.

They won’t vote for Ted Cruz; they might vote for Ralph Nader.

556 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 4:58:25pm

re: #541 klys

So dinner tonight is chipotle pork and I just got the pork marinating. I really wish there was like a cooking basics class I could go take on how to do some of the general kitchen skills like knifework and whatnot, because that’s one thing I never learned at home - Mom cooked, but not like that a lot of the time? And I’m still kind of making up shit as I go along on the whole “trimming the pork” thing.

I pulled the lid off the food processor after making the marinade and my eyes started burning. This should be good.

Per WW, youtube. You could start with My Drunk Kitchen.

557 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:58:28pm

Oops.

558 CuriousLurker  Jun 12, 2014 4:59:29pm

re: #557 Gus

Oops.

?

559 Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2014 4:59:34pm

re: #554 Gus

And that was the smartest thing Dick Cheney ever said. Too bad he forgot every word of it when he became Mr. Gravitas in the Bush II administration.

560 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 4:59:57pm

re: #558 CuriousLurker

?

1991 Cheney vs. now.

561 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 5:00:02pm

re: #555 Skip Intro

If Iraq goes to shit and if we end up sending troops there again I think a lot of people on the left are going to be, at the least, disenchanted with the Administration and everyone who was involved in that decision. That certainly would include Hillary Clinton.

They won’t vote for Ted Cruz; they might vote for Ralph Nader.

I hope the anti-dudebro vote is significant. Women should be motivated to keep Republicans out of office, and that means shunning third party efforts.

562 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 5:00:47pm

re: #555 Skip Intro

If Iraq goes to shit and if we end up sending troops there again I think a lot of people on the left are going to be, at the least, disenchanted with the Administration and everyone who was involved in that decision. That certainly would include Hillary Clinton.

They won’t vote for Ted Cruz; they might vote for Ralph Nader.

Obama is not going to fuck things up by sending troops to Iraq. If I’m wrong and he does, then I agree that the shit really would hit the fan. It would be a replay of the US left self-destructing over Vietnam while LBJ was president.

563 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 12, 2014 5:01:03pm

I just can’t even.

564 RealityBasedSteve  Jun 12, 2014 5:01:29pm

re: #556 Stanley Sea

Per WW, youtube. You could start with My Drunk Kitchen.

Hmmmmm…… that might be ‘questionable’.

RBS

565 Kid A  Jun 12, 2014 5:01:30pm

re: #549 Skip Intro

Probably another half dozen things I’ve forgotten about.

1.) Juanita Broderick.
2.) Clinton was brainwashed by the Russians while at Oxford.
3.) Kathleen Willey
4.) Clinton fathered a black child with a prostitute.
5.) Let bin Laden get away.
6.) Filegate.

566 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 5:01:59pm

re: #564 RealityBasedSteve

Hmmmmm…… that might be ‘questionable’.

RBS

I wonder if she’s still posting or went to rehab. She was HILARIOUS.

567 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 5:03:02pm

re: #563 Pie-onist Overlord

I just can’t even.

[Embedded content]

Well, for starters. It’s still not like Vietnam.

568 Dr Lizardo  Jun 12, 2014 5:03:12pm

Looks like Iran is pitching in, and making a difference in facts on the ground.

Iranian troops have helped Iraqi government forces re-take most of the town of Tikrit, the Wall Street Journal reports Iranian security sources as saying.

The source said that two battalions of Iran’s Quds force, the overseas branch of the country’s Revolutionary Guard, helped battle the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) militants in the city.

A combined Iraqi-Iranian force has now taken control of 85% of Tikrit, the sources added.

hurriyetdailynews.com

569 wrenchwench  Jun 12, 2014 5:03:48pm

re: #565 Kid A

1.) Juanita Broderick.
2.) Clinton was brainwashed by the Russians while at Oxford.
3.) Kathleen Willey
4.) Clinton fathered a black child with a prostitute.
5.) Let bin Laden get away.
6.) Filegate.

Women will be further motivated when Hillary is attacked with Bill’s faults. Which leaves #6?

570 Kid A  Jun 12, 2014 5:04:16pm

re: #563 Pie-onist Overlord

571 goddamnedfrank  Jun 12, 2014 5:05:42pm

The thing about the liberals who hate Hillary enough to stay home is that for the most part they’re dubstep listening contrarian dudebros who attend Burning Man when they aren’t busy not wearing shirts.

572 Dr Lizardo  Jun 12, 2014 5:05:55pm

re: #569 wrenchwench

Women will be further motivated when Hillary is attacked with Bill’s faults. Which leaves #6?

The wingnuts will start up with Huma Abedin, whom they maintain is a Muslim Brotherhood sleeper agent, as well as Hillary Clinton’s lover.

No, I’m not kidding. They genuinely believe that. So if she decides to run for President, I can assure you that will come up.

573 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 5:06:49pm

Then came 9/11 and PNAC

…even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. Failure to undertake such an effort will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism.

574 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 5:07:15pm

Unlike the wingnuts would have you think, PNAC is not some conspiracy theory.

575 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 5:09:05pm
September 20, 2001

The Honorable George W. Bush
President of the United States
Washington, DC

Dear Mr. President,

We write to endorse your admirable commitment to “lead the world to victory” in the war against terrorism. We fully support your call for “a broad and sustained campaign” against the “terrorist organizations and those who harbor and support them.” We agree with Secretary of State Powell that the United States must find and punish the perpetrators of the horrific attack of September 11, and we must, as he said, “go after terrorism wherever we find it in the world” and “get it by its branch and root.” We agree with the Secretary of State that U.S. policy must aim not only at finding the people responsible for this incident, but must also target those “other groups out there that mean us no good” and “that have conducted attacks previously against U.S. personnel, U.S. interests and our allies.”

In order to carry out this “first war of the 21st century” successfully, and in order, as you have said, to do future “generations a favor by coming together and whipping terrorism,” we believe the following steps are necessary parts of a comprehensive strategy.

Osama bin Laden

We agree that a key goal, but by no means the only goal, of the current war on terrorism should be to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, and to destroy his network of associates. To this end, we support the necessary military action in Afghanistan and the provision of substantial financial and military assistance to the anti-Taliban forces in that country.

Iraq

We agree with Secretary of State Powell’s recent statement that Saddam Hussein “is one of the leading terrorists on the face of the Earth….” It may be that the Iraqi government provided assistance in some form to the recent attack on the United States. But even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. Failure to undertake such an effort will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism. The United States must therefore provide full military and financial support to the Iraqi opposition. American military force should be used to provide a “safe zone” in Iraq from which the opposition can operate. And American forces must be prepared to back up our commitment to the Iraqi opposition by all necessary means.

Hezbollah

Hezbollah is one of the leading terrorist organizations in the world. It is suspected of having been involved in the 1998 bombings of the American embassies in Africa, and implicated in the bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983. Hezbollah clearly falls in the category cited by Secretary Powell of groups “that mean us no good” and “that have conducted attacks previously against U.S. personnel, U.S. interests and our allies.” Therefore, any war against terrorism must target Hezbollah. We believe the administration should demand that Iran and Syria immediately cease all military, financial, and political support for Hezbollah and its operations. Should Iran and Syria refuse to comply, the administration should consider appropriate measures of retaliation against these known state sponsors of terrorism.

Israel and the Palestinian Authority

Israel has been and remains America’s staunchest ally against international terrorism, especially in the Middle East. The United States should fully support our fellow democracy in its fight against terrorism. We should insist that the Palestinian Authority put a stop to terrorism emanating from territories under its control and imprison those planning terrorist attacks against Israel. Until the Palestinian Authority moves against terror, the United States should provide it no further assistance.

U.S. Defense Budget

A serious and victorious war on terrorism will require a large increase in defense spending. Fighting this war may well require the United States to engage a well-armed foe, and will also require that we remain capable of defending our interests elsewhere in the world. We urge that there be no hesitation in requesting whatever funds for defense are needed to allow us to win this war.

There is, of course, much more that will have to be done. Diplomatic efforts will be required to enlist other nations’ aid in this war on terrorism. Economic and financial tools at our disposal will have to be used. There are other actions of a military nature that may well be needed. However, in our judgement the steps outlined above constitute the minimum necessary if this war is to be fought effectively and brought to a successful conclusion. Our purpose in writing is to assure you of our support as you do what must be done to lead the nation to victory in this fight.

Sincerely,

William Kristol

Richard V. Allen Gary Bauer Jeffrey Bell

William J. Bennett Rudy Boshwitz Jeffrey Bergner

Eliot Cohen Seth Cropsey Midge Decter

Thomas Donnelly Nicholas Eberstadt Hillel Fradkin

Aaron Friedberg Francis Fukuyama Frank Gaffney

Jeffrey Gedmin Reuel Marc Gerecht Charles Hill

Bruce P. Jackson Eli S. Jacobs Michael Joyce

Donald Kagan Robert Kagan Jeane Kirkpatrick

Charles Krauthammer John Lehman Clifford May

Martin Peretz Richard Perle Norman Podhoretz

Stephen P. Rosen Randy Scheunemann Gary Schmitt

William Schneider, Jr. Richard H. Shultz Henry Sokolski

Stephen J. Solarz Vin Weber Leon Wieseltier

Marshall Wittmann

576 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 5:11:05pm

Stop bringing up history!

577 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 5:12:01pm

re: #568 Dr Lizardo

Looks like Iran is pitching in, and making a difference in facts on the ground.

hurriyetdailynews.com

There hasn’t been enough discussion of this development. It does put Obama in an awkward position. Let the Iranians expand their regional influence and power or end up being accused of providing air support for Iranian operations. I suspect the press is unsure how to handle coverage of the topic.

578 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 5:12:08pm

re: #575 Gus

Thanks for the reminder. I had repressed my memory of how much arrogance and stupidity the neocons were capable of squeezing into a few short paragraphs.

579 Mike Lamb  Jun 12, 2014 5:12:46pm

re: #563 Pie-onist Overlord

I just can’t even.

[Embedded content]

What in the ever loving fuck?

580 BongCrodny  Jun 12, 2014 5:12:52pm

re: #563 Pie-onist Overlord

I just can’t even.

[Embedded content]

Ben Shapiro::Captain Queeg
“The Left”::Strawberries

581 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 5:13:00pm

We agree with Secretary of State Powell’s recent statement that Saddam Hussein “is one of the leading terrorists on the face of the Earth….” It may be that the Iraqi government provided assistance in some form to the recent attack on the United States. But even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. Failure to undertake such an effort will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism. The United States must therefore provide full military and financial support to the Iraqi opposition. American military force should be used to provide a “safe zone” in Iraq from which the opposition can operate. And American forces must be prepared to back up our commitment to the Iraqi opposition by all necessary means.

582 Stanley Sea  Jun 12, 2014 5:13:03pm

Episode 1, My Drunk Kitchen

Youtube Video

583 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 5:13:40pm

re: #577 Killgore Trout

There hasn’t been enough discussion of this development. It does put Obama in an awkward position. Let the Iranians expand their regional influence and power or end up being accused of providing air support for Iranian operations. I suspect the press is unsure how to handle coverage of the topic.

That’s the safest guess yet. The US media is by and large too stupid to empty water out of a boot, even if the instructions for doing so are printed on the sole of the boot.

584 Charles Johnson  Jun 12, 2014 5:16:35pm
585 Killgore Trout  Jun 12, 2014 5:16:50pm

re: #583 EPR-radar

That’s the safest guess yet. The US media is by and large too stupid to empty water out of a boot, even if the instructions for doing so are printed on the sole of the boot.

I think it’s also an unconfirmed report so they might be wary. I would think someone would ask about it at a press conference or something.

586 dog philosopher  Jun 12, 2014 5:18:32pm

re: #575 Gus

fuck pundits

fuck ‘em

587 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 5:20:29pm

588 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 5:20:53pm

re: #586 dog philosopher

fuck pundits

fuck ‘em

Right. I recognize a lot of names there.

589 Skip Intro  Jun 12, 2014 5:21:16pm

re: #572 Dr Lizardo

The wingnuts will start up with Huma Abedin, whom they maintain is a Muslim Brotherhood sleeper agent, as well as Hillary Clinton’s lover.

No, I’m not kidding. They genuinely believe that. So if she decides to run for President, I can assure you that will come up.

Rush Limbaugh did eight years of shows attacking the Clintons for everything on earth other than climate change (because that doesn’t exist).

He will be very generous sharing his information with anyone on the right who asks.

590 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 5:22:02pm

Interesting to note. Some serious Islamophobes signed that letter.

591 EPR-radar  Jun 12, 2014 5:22:18pm

re: #587 Gus

I still can’t get over the stupidity of Very Serious People (TM) writing drivel like “strategy aimed at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors”.

592 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 5:23:30pm

re: #586 dog philosopher

fuck pundits

fuck ‘em

Full list here with different documents.

publiceye.org

593 Gus  Jun 12, 2014 5:25:06pm

594 Dr Lizardo  Jun 12, 2014 5:25:20pm

re: #589 Skip Intro

Rush Limbaugh did eight years of shows attacking the Clintons for everything on earth other than climate change (because that doesn’t exist).

He will be very generous sharing his information with anyone on the right who asks.

I’m sure he’ll be quite generous indeed.

The day he finally retires, I’m sure a lot of people are going to be quite happy that gasbag hangs it up. Hell, he could retire right now; he has to be worth a small fortune at least.

And with that, goodnight, Lizards.

595 The War TARDIS  Jun 12, 2014 5:26:28pm

re: #452 Killgore Trout

Or in the case of Libya, you can elect the government you want, but the MB will take it over anyway.

596 lostlakehiker  Jun 12, 2014 5:27:45pm

re: #108 HappyWarrior

I like this Grant, he wins. Said by a man who knew Grant better than Friedersdorf.

The quote is actually “I can’t spare this man; he fights.” Grant didn’t actually have a huge win-loss ratio. He had a knack for strategy, though. His wins tended to add up to some larger consequence, while his defeats never snowballed into wider consequences. They were just setbacks.

The pattern was set at Shiloh, where his forces took a licking the first day but ended up winning because Grant didn’t tuck tail when the results of the first round of a fight didn’t go to plan.

Again in the Vicksburg campaign, Grant tried this, tried that, and tried the other. In the end, after a number of embarrassing setbacks that might have led a lesser man to give up, he hit upon the winning combination. The upshot of the campaign was that the South had to surrender an army of about 15000 men, and the Union owned the Mississippi from headwaters to the sea.

And then there was the road to Appomattox. More often than not, Lee won the battles along the way, if you keep score the conventional way. But when all was said and done, Lee’s army was tied down to defending Richmond, and Sherman marched through Georgia, and the game was up.

The Union was fighting a war against an agile, determined, daring enemy. There was never any chance of a smooth parade of victories against such a foe. Tenacity was going to be essential. Grant supplied it, and not the plodding tenacity of World War 1 British, German, and French generals, but a flexible tenacity in which defeats were seen as lessons to be learned from, not quirks of bad luck which would surely work out better the second time.

The war’s outcome was not predestined. There were other men who might have gained the Union a victory, but having Grant vastly improved the chances of the North. He’s easily in the top 20 list of most important figures in American history.

597 blueraven  Jun 12, 2014 5:31:09pm

re: #592 Gus

Full list here with different documents.

publiceye.org

Note they never said anything like…Mr President, the American people will support this war on Terror through a tax and we will stand behind you when you bring that to congress.

598 Swift2991  Jun 12, 2014 6:07:21pm

We can’t afford food stamps or raising the minimum wage, or long-term unemployment. But let’s try for Iraq War 3: Revenge for W! Because it only cost a trillion or so. The national debt isn’t important anymore, right?

599 jonhendry  Jun 12, 2014 8:41:19pm

re: #112 Rightwingconspirator

“What’s dangerous about carrying out airstrikes for the Iraqi government against extremist rebels?”

The risk is that our strikes would hit innocent people which looks really bad. Or, that our strikes would be misused to advance the interests of some Iraqi faction, rather than against the SISI forces.

600 jonhendry  Jun 12, 2014 9:20:46pm

re: #272 iossarian

“The right-wing “intelligentsia” is chock-full of these people. They can be wrong on everything over and over again and yet never lose their Very Serious status or Brookings Institution stipends.”

Brookings has a reputation of being more left or centrist, compared to Heritage or AEI.

Yet Brookings still employs Pollack and Michael O’Hanlon, another pro-Iraq War propagandist, as part of their Saban Power Rangers Center For Endless Middle East War.


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