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1 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:42:19pm

Why would our anecdotal experiences be any less valuable in this discussion than those of our acquaintances?

I have a personal experience with cannabis that has lead me from being an unmotivated college student to formulating and executing a business plan for becoming self employed on a path to simultaneously preserve ocean resources, pursue an underdeveloped technology, and make lots of money. But I guess you don't want to hear about that.

2 Steve Dutch  Sun, Jan 9, 2011 4:51:17pm

No, I want to hear somebody else tell me how cannabis led you from being an "unmotivated college student to formulating and executing a business plan for becoming self employed on a path to simultaneously preserve ocean resources, pursue an underdeveloped technology, and make lots of money." Because a non-user's perceptions aren't affected by pot use or a desire to legitimize it.

Surely the word must be out among employers that pot users are better workers. There must be some at least that specifically recruit pot users because of all their positive qualities. Right?

3 Steve Dutch  Sun, Jan 9, 2011 5:09:34pm

By the way, nothing specific to pot in that last response. If some born-again Christian wanted to give me a testimony, I'd say, "No. I want to hear a non-Christian tell me how your life has changed for the better as a result of your religion."

4 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:24:21pm

I have plenty to say about those points, but obviously I can't participate because of the preconditions you have set. Good luck finding whatever you seek, but an unwillingness to engage in dialog indicates to me that you probably won't find it.

5 BishopX  Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:27:01am

All right, let talk alcohol. Can anyone provide testimony about another persons use of alcohol improved job performance? Home life? Led them to be a better student?


The bar for mind altering substances shouldn't be that they provide an objective benefit, rather it should be that they do no harm.

In terms of your challenge, yes I know people who pot has helped. I went to high school with a young women who used cannabis to control the nausea from chemotherapy, allowing her to have the energy to complete her school work and graduate from high school. She is now a doctoral student in Economics at Harvard. Without pot she never would have completed her junior year in high school.

6 Steve Dutch  Mon, Jan 10, 2011 1:22:06pm

I'm perfectly willing to engage in dialog, prononymous, but what I want here is evidence from people who don't have a vested interest in legitimizing pot. Surely you know some non-users who can speak to my questions?.

Bishopx, the answer to your first question is no. Given the damage one legal intoxicant does to society, why do we need more of them? The point of my question is that I can knock on a dozen doors at random and find at least a few people who will tell me stories of people they know being messed up by pot. Can we balance the accounts of harm with another side to the story from people with no agenda of their own? So far, the answer is no. The only people who seem to see any benefit to using pot are those determined to use it.

As for the relief of nausea from chemo (and relief of glaucoma), those might be legitimate. There are pharmaceutical varieties of THC, though. But if the person is under medical supervision and strictly using pot as directed, I'll grant the point. It's the difference between using Sudafed for a cold and swallowing a whole box at once (as someone of my acquaintance once did) to get high.

The sneers that were directed against Frum's article are interesting. The Arizona shooter was enabled by extreme rhetoric? Of course. Call for gun control? Of course. If he'd been drunk as a skunk, we'd say alcohol was involved. If he'd been high on PCP, that would have been noted. Connected to an extremist group? Duly noted. Influenced by maps with bullseyes on them (but not those put out by Democrats)? Naturally. If he'd shopped at Target, we'd probably hear about it. If he'd been a member of a conservative sect, that would surely have been batted around. But suggest that his mental illness might have been exacerbated by pot use, and that's off limits.

7 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 5:53:53am

I just look at my bank account, dude!

But then again, I'm an artist, it's sort of magic fairy fuel for all the manipulation of everyone's attentions we often partake in :)

8 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 5:55:08am

What a ridiculous strawman you're setting up. Why are you ignoring the already established historical record of successful pot smokers-- like Feynman and Sagan?

But suggest that his mental illness might have been exacerbated by pot use, and that's off limits.

His mental illness was probably exacerbated by pot use. I said so in my response to Frum's article. I have no idea how you missed it, except that you're not actually interested in having an honest argument.

Frum's argument is based on two ideas:

1. That it's possible to make pot difficult to acquire.

It's not. Prohibition has shown us this; when a substance has wide cultural acceptance, it's not going to be able to be suppressed.

2. That already-existing mental illnesses being exacerbated by marijuana is an argument against the use of marijuana in general.

Obviously, it's not. It's an argument against the use of marijuana if you have a mental illness.

Do you understand?

9 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 5:55:54am

though personally, I have no argument about the legalization of pot, I think it should be legalized philosophically, since it's less dangerous to society than booze. But aside from creativity, I have no experience about its restorative qualities. I just objectively know it works for me and what I do.

10 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 5:56:30am

re: #8 Obdicut

You just woke up, didn't you *_*

I have yet to sleep!

11 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 5:57:11am

I think credit cards damage the human psyche more than heroin.

Put that in your blog and smoke it!

12 RogueOne  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 5:58:36am

re: #8 Obdicut

What a ridiculous strawman you're setting up. Why are you ignoring the already established historical record of successful pot smokers-- like Feynman and Sagan?
......

We can also add the last 3 presidents to that list. I'm sure dope smoking didn't turn them into presidents but it obviously didn't hurt.

13 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 5:58:40am

re: #10 WindUpBird

No, I woke up four hours ago. You know how us unproductive potheads are. I get up at five every morning.

Actually, I haven't had any marijuana in months upon months. Strangely enough, I'm not all that different when I do and when I don't, except I sleep a little better when I do.

14 RogueOne  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:00:40am

When I left the army I quit drinking and switched to smoking. In my experience it's managed to keep me from choking the life out of people who were asking for it.//

15 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:00:40am
Let's hear from people who don't use pot themselves but know pot users, explaining how that person has improved by using pot.

Really? So instead of "pot does no harm" now one must show that it's beneficial? Are you bonkers or something?

16 RogueOne  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:00:56am

re: #15 Sergey Romanov

Really? So instead of "pot does no harm" now one must show that it's beneficial? Are you bonkers or something?

He's high.

17 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:01:19am

re: #12 RogueOne

We can also add the last 3 presidents to that list. I'm sure dope smoking didn't turn them into presidents but it obviously didn't hurt.


This is the greatest thing you've ever written

I'm sure dope smoking didn't turn them into presidents

18 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:02:50am

re: #13 Obdicut

No, I woke up four hours ago. You know how us unproductive potheads are. I get up at five every morning.

Actually, I haven't had any marijuana in months upon months. Strangely enough, I'm not all that different when I do and when I don't, except I sleep a little better when I do.

I would probably be more organized off the stuff, but I'm very focused on weird art details on it, and it seems to improve creative momentum!

19 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:04:21am

re: #14 RogueOne

When I left the army I quit drinking and switched to smoking. In my experience it's managed to keep me from choking the life out of people who were asking for it.//

This is really a thing that more people should hear


A lot of people who think they like booze, it really does just darken their personality, when all they want is a mild intoxicant

20 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:04:58am

re: #18 WindUpBird

That reminds me--

SteveDutch, back before I ever personally used marijuana myself, I worked at a computer game company as a QA tester. I was a lead tester, in charge of a team. I had two guys who were potheads, and I would actually tell them to get stoned before work on days when I needed certain sorts of tests run, because they were amazingly good at them when they were stoned. It increased their patience and ability to hyperfocus. It also made them better at writing the bugs clearly, weirdly enough.

So there you go. There's an anecdote for you.

21 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:06:22am

re: #20 Obdicut

high fives forever :D

Man I sometimes wonder if you ever crosse dpaths with certain QA people in the bay area at a certain company, because I know a lot of artsy types with strange costumes who worked for that company in their QA department for a time ._.

22 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:11:49am

re: #20 Obdicut

I sometimes wonder if marijuana hits the same parts of peoples' personalities that fetishes do

23 RogueOne  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:12:18am

re: #19 WindUpBird

This is really a thing that more people should hear

A lot of people who think they like booze, it really does just darken their personality, when all they want is a mild intoxicant

I was only partly being sarcastic. I finally got my brother, who was always in one brawl after another, to switch over and he hasn't been in trouble for almost an entire year. A new family record!

24 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:19:33am

re: #23 RogueOne

I was only partly being sarcastic. I finally got my brother, who was always in one brawl after another, to switch over and he hasn't been in trouble for almost an entire year. A new family record!

Yah know, it's a punchline but it really is true, potheads don't go around swingin on people in bars :D

Eventually we'll legalize the stuff, and it'll be acclimated to American society, and people will wonder why it was ever illegal. Eh.

25 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:30:24am

MAN MY HANDS ARE HUGE


SPACE IS LARGE

26 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:38:36am

re: #25 WindUpBird

MAN MY HANDS ARE HUGE

SPACE IS LARGE

While we are at it... Wuwuzzat?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

;-)

27 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:50:28am

re: #20 Obdicut

Well done.

28 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:08:32am

I suppose I could get my Mom to write a witness to share. I don't smoke now, haven't for a few years but I did.

Not sure she would say it made me better but when I did start smoking it recreationally in college she never noticed a difference. Grades stayed fine, I worked two jobs. She hadn't a clue I had ever smoked until years later. Neither did dad.

I could add my observations about my own experiences using it over the years and other people but it looks like those aren't good enough cause I toked. I dunno in once place I lived and worked I don't think I would be too of the mark to say about 75-80% of the people I knew smoked it to varying degrees. Heck I even smoked up one weekend with the Mayor and half the municipal council at a party. The town seemed to be doing okay. That's not to say I never knew or came across the stereotypical stoner where smoking it did affect their lives. These usually were the peeps that started smoking as soon as they got up and kept going throughout the day. Much the same as an alcoholic would.

I think part of the issue speaks to confirmation bias, these sorts, like raging alcoholics are noticable. You see them because it's obvious. What you don't see are the larger numbers of people who smoke to varying degrees because they handle it fine, work just fine and function just fine. People just assume that people that aren't exhibiting the stereotypical symptoms aren't using it. My experience, that's a wrong assumption.
But then again this was BC. Maybe there is something in the water there that offers protection. .

But then again I've been lately finding out how many people that I've met in the past couple of years here at least occasionally partake in some smoking. Makes me laugh actually cause most of them are all older, even seniors and do not fit the 'stereotype' even remotely.

29 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:36:28am

re: #18 WindUpBird

I would probably be more organized off the stuff, but I'm very focused on weird art details on it, and it seems to improve creative momentum!

I really think that a lot depends on the person. I do think that with some it just really makes them stupid. I've seen it but then some people do fine with a little alcohol in them and some turn into utter morons.

I knew what smoking did to me, just like I did alcohol and did it accordingly. Like I never would smoke up if I had to go to work and I barely ever smoked if I had to go out. For me it was much more an internal experience and I found that to enjoyed it more when there was less around. Obi, mentioned 'hyperfocus'. That's where my mind goes on it. I was a much better video game player when stoned. :) So if I was doing anything that needed multiple focus I wouldn't do it.

I had friends though who described almost an opposite effects. They found it easy to focus on more at once and enjoyed that effect.

30 Steve Dutch  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 10:29:48am

If pot makes you think you're more creative or enlightened, fine. There are all kinds of places you can post your ideas.

Ditto if you think our present policies on pot are ridiculous.

Ditto if you have horror stories of pot wrecking people's lives. Notice I didn't ask for those.

I asked for objective, unbiased evidence. Many of you feel that pot improves your lives. Surely there must be someone who doesn't use pot who can corroborate your story? Rugue1 supplied an example. What was so hard about that? So far the evidence here mostly suggests that using pot impairs posters' ability to understand instructions.

I want outside, unbiased evidence for the same reason we don't let Pfizer unilaterally declare their drugs are safe, or airlines unilaterally declare their planes are safe to fly, or restaurants tell us unilaterally that their kitchens are clean.


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