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1 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 4, 2011 12:48:05pm
“Negative stereotypes of atheists are alive and well. Yet like all stereotypes, they aren’t true — and perhaps they tell us more about those who harbor them than those who are maligned by them.”

Word.

2 Randy W. Weeks  Wed, May 4, 2011 1:30:13pm

We are scary! boo!

3 windsagio  Wed, May 4, 2011 1:51:29pm

You guys should have a conversation with Muslims and Scientologists.(callback!)

4 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:14:52pm

re: #3 windsagio

I don’t like to admit this, but you lost me there.

5 iceweasel  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:16:43pm
A growing body of social science research reveals that atheists, and non-religious people in general, are far from the unsavory beings many assume them to be. On basic questions of morality and human decency — issues such as governmental use of torture, the death penalty, punitive hitting of children, racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, environmental degradation or human rights — the irreligious tend to be more ethical than their religious peers, particularly compared with those who describe themselves as very religious.

Ha-Ha! (nelson voice)

6 Sionainn  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:19:30pm

re: #5 iceweasel

Ha-Ha! (nelson voice)

I think that’s one of the very reasons why people don’t like atheists. It shakes them up to even consider that people can do/be good without having some god keep them in line.

7 iceweasel  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:20:45pm

re: #6 Sionainn

I think that’s one of the very reasons why people don’t like atheists. It shakes them up to even consider that people can do/be good without having some god keep them in line.

They themselves believe they wouldn’t do good without their God to keep them in line, so they project that onto atheists.

8 windsagio  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:22:59pm

re: #4 Naso Tang

I don’t like to admit this, but you lost me there.

I’m a little vague sometimes, so its not surprising :p

I’m saying that people like to think of themselves as persecuted, but atheists (as a group) need to take a look at the truly persecuted religious minorities in this country, the truly hated people. Unless you’re just a douche about it, its easier to atheist than it is to be Muslim, Scientologist, or Jehovah’s Witness/Adventist (yeah they’re not the same, but they tend to get treated the same). It’s disrespectful to others’ problems.

9 windsagio  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:23:45pm

re: #6 Sionainn

Or maybe its the sense of superiority >>

(man I’m all argumentative all of a sudden, maybe I should take a walk)

10 Sionainn  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:25:19pm

re: #7 iceweasel

They themselves believe they wouldn’t do good without their God to keep them in line, so they project that onto atheists.

Well, there certainly is a lot of projection going on from a certain segment of the population. It’s not surprising that they are the ones who are most suspicious and/or dislike atheists.

11 Sionainn  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:28:00pm

re: #8 windsagio

I’m a little vague sometimes, so its not surprising :p

I’m saying that people like to think of themselves as persecuted, but atheists (as a group) need to take a look at the truly persecuted religious minorities in this country, the truly hated people. Unless you’re just a douche about it, its easier to atheist than it is to be Muslim, Scientologist, or Jehovah’s Witness/Adventist (yeah they’re not the same, but they tend to get treated the same). It’s disrespectful to others’ problems.

Maybe I’m missing something, but I didn’t get the idea from the article that the author was saying the atheists are being persecuted. I’ve personally never felt persecuted, but then again, I have no problem pushing back against people who would deign to make me live by their religious rules. Since, so far, we have been successful at keeping a lot of the legislation from being passed (and violating the Constitution in the process), there isn’t really “persecution” going on.

12 Sionainn  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:29:09pm

re: #9 windsagio

Or maybe its the sense of superiority >>

(man I’m all argumentative all of a sudden, maybe I should take a walk)

Whose sense of superiority? Mine? LOL. I’ll accept that. (…and you can be argumentative all you like…doesn’t bother me…) :-)

13 windsagio  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:34:38pm

re: #11 Sionainn

perhaps I’m being unfair, but tying in with a number of other things that have come up in discussion (and limiting it just to LGF) its something that comes up a lot. Applying other arguments to this discussion probably isn’t fair to you guys tho :p

re: #12 Sionainn

heh thx >> I guess what I’m saying is, at least for younger people (or maybe just for me :p), that’s what’s often offputting. It’s the sense of ‘we’re superior and special, and they just feel threatened by us’.

None of us are superior and special, especially in the area of faith. The only things we can argue are ‘who’s right’ (which has no solution) and more importantly ‘who’s actively doing harm’. Al Qaeda, the Khmer Rouge, and the inquisition all had particular beliefs that did immense harm, and those groups deserve scorn, but not the groups they’re basing themselves on.

14 Romantic Heretic  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:36:44pm

One thing bugs me and that is people can’t tell the difference between an atheist and an agnostic. I remember trying so hard to explain to someone that I don’t know anything about God, Allah to Zeus, take your pick. That isn’t the same thing as saying “There is no God.” But I get lumped in with the atheists.

Both sides are statements of faith and I don’t have that faith one way or another. It’s not important to me anyway. Bryan Fischer and the Dalai Lama are both believers. One’s scum, the other isn’t. It’s how a person acts that determines whether they are good or evil, not their belief.

15 Sionainn  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:43:29pm

re: #13 windsagio

I hear ya. It’s easy to end up thinking of other discussions elsewhere with other people and bringing that energy and emotion to a different place with different people, and sometimes that frustration is out of place because of what happened elsewhere.

The thing that frustrates me, as an atheist, is the amount of energy some religious people spend worrying about me and my ilk and the state of our souls. I just want them to leave me alone and quit pushing themselves and their faith on me. I don’t say anything bad about someone else’s faith and don’t give them all the reasons why I don’t believe in their faith because then it becomes a pissing match and is construed as me bashing or making fun of what they believe in (and I don’t want to do that). I don’t try to get laws made to force my beliefs, or lack thereof, on them and I would appreciate the same consideration. Just because I fight back against legislation that religious folks keep proposing and pushing on us that is based on their beliefs doesn’t mean that they are being persecuted. That bothers me, too.

I hope this made sense. I have a feeling I’m babbling now.

16 windsagio  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:50:38pm

re: #15 Sionainn

yeah that’s terrible and just as bad.

It’s like sending missionaries to Spain. “OH WE’RE SO CONCERNED FOR THOSE POOR BENIGHTED CATHOLICS!”

I suppose where you are in your faith defines what you see (wow, as I type that, that’s a surprise TO NOBODY lol). For me its seeing a bunch of people on the internet either being condescending or complaining :p

The flip side is, I can’t imagine what it would be like to have your religious aunt tell you she’s praying for your soul every day… Or yeah people pushing laws to ‘christianize’ the US (choose appropriate religion to home country :p)

what you’re making makes 100% sense, and its fun to read… and I think we’re at the same place, really. “We’re all doing our best to figure this thing out, but we can do it on our own. We don’t need other people talking down to us, or fucking with us, especially not by using political power.”

17 Sionainn  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:52:43pm

re: #16 windsagio

yeah that’s terrible and just as bad.

It’s like sending missionaries to Spain. “OH WE’RE SO CONCERNED FOR THOSE POOR BENIGHTED CATHOLICS!”

I suppose where you are in your faith defines what you see (wow, as I type that, that’s a surprise TO NOBODY lol). For me its seeing a bunch of people on the internet either being condescending or complaining :p

The flip side is, I can’t imagine what it would be like to have your religious aunt tell you she’s praying for your soul every day… Or yeah people pushing laws to ‘christianize’ the US (choose appropriate religion to home country :p)

what you’re making makes 100% sense, and its fun to read… and I think we’re at the same place, really. “We’re all doing our best to figure this thing out, but we can do it on our own. We don’t need other people talking down to us, or fucking with us, especially not by using political power.”

Yes, I think we are on the same page. :-)

18 Randy W. Weeks  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:20:06pm

I don’t feel persecuted whatsoever, but I also don’t really discuss my religious views often. Actually not at all.

19 Sionainn  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:28:44pm

re: #18 LoneStarSpur

I don’t feel persecuted whatsoever, but I also don’t really discuss my religious views often. Actually not at all.

I only really talk about my views with my husband and my sister-in-law. The most I say about my views is that I’m an atheist. That’s it.

20 What, me worry?  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:44:13pm

re: #14 Romantic Heretic

One thing bugs me and that is people can’t tell the difference between an atheist and an agnostic. I remember trying so hard to explain to someone that I don’t know anything about God, Allah to Zeus, take your pick. That isn’t the same thing as saying “There is no God.” But I get lumped in with the atheists.

Both sides are statements of faith and I don’t have that faith one way or another. It’s not important to me anyway. Bryan Fischer and the Dalai Lama are both believers. One’s scum, the other isn’t. It’s how a person acts that determines whether they are good or evil, not their belief.

My favorite line from one of my best friends is, “I’m an agnostic because atheism is too committal.” Just tickles me pink.

21 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:54:28pm

Misconceptions about atheists

Youtube Video
22 Varek Raith  Wed, May 4, 2011 4:12:45pm

OOGA BOOGA!

23 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, May 4, 2011 4:33:06pm

“Why do Americans still dislike atheists?”

Because they smell, and no one likes to hang around people who smell. Here’s a tip, find Jesus or take a shower and use the soap.

24 Tigger2005  Wed, May 4, 2011 4:57:26pm

Well, marjoriemoon got upset with me in the thread for the Scientology post just for asking some questions. Such as:

1. Are there really any religious “revelations,” laws, practices, doctrines, so profound and unique that human beings could not possibly have come up with them on their own? Is even “love your enemies” something that could only have come from God, something that no “mere” human beings could ever have conceived of? I mean, we seem like a pretty ingenious and imaginative bunch.

2. Why is a “non-human” source of love, wisdom, etc. better or more authoritative than human sources?

3. Why has God never revealed to any believer some piece of information not currently known to science, which can be tested and verified? Of course scientists would be skeptical the first few times this happened, but after a couple of hundred such cases, they would have to admit something strange is going on.

I could hardly be described as some kind of “committed” atheist or agnostic…in fact I work for a religious organization (although obviously one of the more “liberal” ones). I don’t have any overweening hostility toward religion (except the ones that have earned it). I’ve just never been able to stop asking questions, even when I wasn’t sure I’d like the answers. And unlike religious folks who claim to understand atheists and agnostics, I really do, and I respect them. I understand how weak the arguments believers use to try to convince them are. I understand that it’s really kind of nuts to fault a person for not believing in something they’ve never seen, heard, touched, or even felt as a “presence” near or inside them (“But if you’d just believe, you’d feel it!”).

One argument goes, “Well, you can’t see love, but it exists, doesn’t it?” Sure, for most of us who can feel it. (There are some human beings who can’t feel emotions—do they exist for those people? To a degree I suppose they do, since they can still experience the effects of love or hatred.) What if a strong and powerful “feeling” of God is simply an outgrowth of our emotions—an evolutionary adaption that helped us carry on our genes?

I think these are good questions. Why should believers get angry and upset with me and belittle and attack me just for asking them? Hey, the questions I ask, the possible answers and their possible implications, sometimes disturb me too. I’m not asking these questions to attack or ridicule anyone. If religious people find them offensive or upsetting, perhaps they need to examine just how secure in their beliefs they really are.

25 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 4, 2011 6:32:55pm

re: #8 windsagio

I’m a little vague sometimes, so its not surprising :p

I’m saying that people like to think of themselves as persecuted, but atheists (as a group) need to take a look at the truly persecuted religious minorities in this country, the truly hated people. Unless you’re just a douche about it, its easier to atheist than it is to be Muslim, Scientologist, or Jehovah’s Witness/Adventist (yeah they’re not the same, but they tend to get treated the same). It’s disrespectful to others’ problems.

The “truly” hated people? Do you go by the number of haters or the number of hated? I think it only takes one to hate and one to be hated for the harm to be equal to all the others.

However, you do raise a point that is relevant. I don’t worry much about being atheist, although there are some people I like but don’t tell, because I suspect then they may not want to be my friend. I admire them for matters other than their religion.

But, I don’t debate religion in polite company (except here) so nobody knows (maybe suspects) what I believe, but most of those truly persecuted ones you refer to would be exactly like me (never mind skin color, that is not as important today) if they didn’t wear their religion on their sleeve, or the uniform.

I can respect religion as a philosophy, but when it has to show in the most everyday settings that it is different from you, me and anyone else, then my respect level drops.

26 windsagio  Wed, May 4, 2011 6:41:03pm

re: #25 Naso Tang

hows this. Unless you’ve had something actively done to you, don’t bitch. I see so many people on LGF needing to show how hated atheists are, its just tiring.

If you have a story about an Atheist actually being discriminated against, or (God forbid) attacked, that’s a story worth discussing.

27 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 4, 2011 6:50:59pm

re: #26 windsagio

Seriously? Don’t bitch? What the fuck.

Yes, atheists actually are discriminated against. No, it’s not always easy to show. But when you’re the one person who’s not praying with the group, especially in the military, yeah, that’s going to be noticed and you’re going to be ostracized.

This is a really, really poor line of reasoning on your part. Incredibly so.

You yourself are religious, right?

28 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 4, 2011 6:53:23pm

re: #26 windsagio

hows this. Unless you’ve had something actively done to you, don’t bitch. I see so many people on LGF needing to show how hated atheists are, its just tiring.

If you have a story about an Atheist actually being discriminated against, or (God forbid) attacked, that’s a story worth discussing.

When did I bitch? Don’t confuse bitching with criticizing and if it is tiring to you, why are you wasting time posting about it?

I have heard O’Reilly complain that I (figuratively speaking) am the cause of much evil in the world. That doesn’t count?

Oh, and I know I would have to lie to have any chance of running for President or for that matter any office of significance. That doesn’t count?

You think it is bad for someone to be discriminated against for the way they look, but not the way they think?

29 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 4, 2011 6:54:39pm

Since this is my page, I should advise that I will be on the road all day tomorrow, and may not be back until Friday.

Goodnight.

30 windsagio  Wed, May 4, 2011 6:55:40pm

re: #27 Obdicut

Well lets talk about actual cases with evidence, and we have grounds for discussion. As to the other, yes I’m also religious. We’ve had the ‘atheism is actually a religion too!’ runaround a few times if you remember.

And naso, I’m sorry didn’t mean to imply that you were complaining a lot directly. In fact I took from your post the exact opposite. It’s a tough subject to discuss ‘cuz people are touchy >>

31 What, me worry?  Wed, May 4, 2011 6:59:04pm

re: #24 Tigger2005

Well, I thought we were having a nice conversation on WUB’s thread, of which I agreed with most of it. I don’t think it was me who got upset.

Also, I am not an observant Jew which means I do not study the Torah daily or weekly. Your questions should be answered by someone more learned than myself. I am, however, Jewish and understand some basic tenets of my religion which is different than other religions. I don’t like getting into these “does God exist” discussions here on LGF because it generally ends up in a huge fight. I respect each person’s right to believe or not believe and to what to believe. It is a personal choice. Having said that, I’ll attempt to answer your questions.

1. The revelation at Sinai happened when God revealed Himself and His word to Moses and the multitudes (some 2 million people) who had gathered at the base of the mountain after their exodus from Egypt. This is revelation for Jews and one part of many proofs of God’s existence.

There are many other things that humans did not create. We are but a small part of this Universe. There is our Earth, all of nature and the cosmos, the stars, the heavens, the galaxies. These are beyond what we have or could create. Abraham, the father of Judaism, was the first to recognize that everything was started from one thing. One source, God, who set it all to motion. Out of the darkness God said, “Let there be light”. The light came and the Universe began to form.

2. Salvation for a Jew is dependent upon the betterment of society through good deeds as we know them by God’s words. We believe the Torah and the Oral teachings (Mishnah) is that source. There are things that are clearly ethical and unethical behavior. Murder is unethical. Stealing is unethical. Those are maybe the more obvious examples. Other unethical behavior is humiliating someone or gossiping about someone. For these other, not so obvious bad behaviors, we look to God and the examples in the Torah on how to act, to treat each other with kindness, love and mercy. It’s in these things where we tend to forget our morals and ethics, particularly when we get angry or feel vengeful, resentful, etc.

3. See #1 :) We believe God has revealed Himself to us and imparted His word and ideals to us on how to be good people and better our world.

I believe now, in the last approx. 2000 years, since the destruction of the Temple and the exile of the Jewish people from Israel, God has left humans to their own devices. It isn’t that God is not there, but there are no more miracles, revelations or prophets. It is up to us to figure it out from what He has left us. We, alone, are responsible for ourselves, not God, not a devil, just you and your actions. So we try to do the best we can.

32 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 4, 2011 6:59:24pm

re: #30 windsagio

Well lets talk about actual cases with evidence, and we have grounds for discussion.

Do you use that same metric for all discrimination?

As to the other, yes I’m also religious. We’ve had the ‘atheism is actually a religion too!’ runaround a few times if you remember.

Yep. So your response to atheists telling you that they face discrimination is saying “Don’t bitch.”

I’ll remember that.

Do you not feel that the religious test for office is enough discrimination to count, for some reason?

Do you know that judges have denied custody of children based on religion?

Why is your immediate, knee-jerk response that atheists are bitching and its tiresome? Do you really trust us that little?

Ironic.

atheism.about.com

33 windsagio  Wed, May 4, 2011 7:09:47pm

re: #32 Obdicut

Yes those would be legitimate reasons to complain of discrimination. Is there a legal religion test for office tho? I didn’t believe there was. If there is, does it just single out atheists?

Being denied custody would be terrible, if it happened non anecdotally. that would be a story we could discuss… in specifics.

My position on this is entirely reaction. If I see one more entitled exceptionalist, I’ll have to hurl all over my keyboard. Real persecution is real persecution, but if people act like fanatics and douches they need to be called on it. People need to be aware of what they’re representing when they shoot off.

34 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 4, 2011 7:16:09pm

re: #33 windsagio

Yes those would be legitimate reasons to complain of discrimination. Is there a legal religion test for office tho? I didn’t believe there was. If there is, does it just single out atheists?

Yes, there is, in a number of states, and yes, it singles out atheists.


Being denied custody would be terrible, if it happened non anecdotally. that would be a story we could discuss… in specifics.

I think you’re confusing your terms. An anecdote is a story.

So first you say you want actual examples, and now you say you don’t want anecdotes? Make up your damn mind.

If I see one more entitled exceptionalist

What or who are you talking about, for fuck’s sake?

35 windsagio  Wed, May 4, 2011 7:24:04pm

re: #34 Obdicut

‘anecdotal evidence’ means something specific, maybe I wasn’t entirely clear in the post.

Anti-atheist religious tests are a terrible thing, and one I didn’t know of. That is true discrimination, and fucked up.

The other thing is me expressing frustration about fanatics that think their evangelical pose is okay because of their particular (lack of) religion. It’s obnoxious in christians, its obnoxious in mormons, its obnoxious in atheists. And it’s all the same thing.

36 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, May 4, 2011 7:24:13pm

tribalism

Americans are by and large indoctrinated to associate God with country, God with everything, God with morality. An entire political party wants to break down the barrier between church and state, and move America towards theocracy.


so they see athiests as fundamentally othered, alien, and untethered to morality.

So seriously, whatever. I just assume most of America hates me, and hey! fuck ‘em :D

37 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 4, 2011 7:31:51pm

re: #35 windsagio

‘anecdotal evidence’ means something specific, maybe I wasn’t entirely clear in the post.

When you ask for examples, you’re asking for anecdotal evidence.

The other thing is me expressing frustration about fanatics that think their evangelical pose is okay because of their particular (lack of) religion

But the vast majority of atheists are not fanatics, and yet you’re treating us all like we are. Why?

38 windsagio  Wed, May 4, 2011 7:33:49pm

re: #37 Obdicut

anecdotal evidence (read the link!) means deceptive or not actually true.

The expression anecdotal evidence refers both to evidence that is factually unreliable, as well as evidence that may be true but cherry-picked or otherwise unrepresentative of typical cases.[1] In other words, there are two distinct meanings:
(1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy.
(2) Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence. For example “my grandfather smoked like a chimney and died healthy in a car crash at the age of 99” does not disprove the proposition that “smoking markedly increases the probability of cancer and heart disease at a relatively early age”. In this case, the evidence may itself be true, but does not warrant the conclusion.

as to the other thing, I’m actually treating it case-by-case. See the interesting and positive discussion with Sionainn above.

39 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, May 4, 2011 7:42:02pm

re: #38 windsagio

Dude. When you ask for examples, you’re asking for what is necessarily an insufficient amount of evidence to generalize from. So, you did indeed ask for anecdotal evidence, unless you were demanding I provide statistical proof of discrimination against atheists.


as to the other thing, I’m actually treating it case-by-case. See the interesting and positive discussion with Sionainn above.

Please name an atheist that acts like a fanatic, and cite a fanatical act on their part. Compare and contrast it with a fanatical act by a religious person.

40 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Wed, May 4, 2011 8:22:00pm

Because atheists are damned, they are controlled by the devil since they eschew God, even though they don’t realize it every action of theirs is controlled by the devil!

///Just ask my brother, he will explain it all to you, personally I just tune him out when he starts off on that rant…don’t get me wrong, he is a great guy, an excellent father, husband, and Christian. He just happens to believe that everyone who is not an active Christian is a tool of Satan…sigh.

41 MinisterO  Wed, May 4, 2011 10:19:53pm

Is it too much to ask that a person read the article before complaining about a persecution fantasy that’s not actually in it?

42 windsagio  Wed, May 4, 2011 10:36:20pm

re: #39 Obdicut


Please name an atheist that acts like a fanatic, and cite a fanatical act on their part. Compare and contrast it with a fanatical act by a religious person.

Well you’ve kind of put me in a tough place. I could deeply offend people on here or reference people you’ve never heard of. Neither is a good solution :p

43 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, May 5, 2011 2:07:00am

re: #42 windsagio

Well you’ve kind of put me in a tough place. I could deeply offend people on here or reference people you’ve never heard of. Neither is a good solution :p

That’s weaksauce.

44 Achilles Tang  Thu, May 5, 2011 6:27:33pm

re: #42 windsagio

Well you’ve kind of put me in a tough place. I could deeply offend people on here or reference people you’ve never heard of. Neither is a good solution :p

Maybe this is dead, but I’m back online.

Trust me, you are unlikely to offend, as perhaps opposed to irritate, any atheists here. They have already heard it all, many Godwins over.


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