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1 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:33:17am

Down-ding for filing this in the Islam category. Just because the perpetrators & victims in this case were Muslim does NOT make it part of Islam. I don't know if it's lack of knowledge on your part or intentional misrepresentation, but it's bullshit.

Here are a few acid attacks by non-Muslims from the first page of a Google search on the subject:

Acid attack: dalits seek justice for victim
Fatal acid attack on paramour
Wife suffers burns in acid attack
'Jilted' lover behind acid attack on girl

Men have also had acid thrown in their faces:
Acid attack on Sikh leader in UK

Acid attacks are a huge problem in South Asia, so much so that requests for specific laws to combat it and to compensate the victims have been called for in recent years.

New law to check acid attacks : Sabita

Report submitted to the Hon’ble Supreme Court of India for its consideration in the pending proceedings filed by one Laxmi in W.P. (Crl.) No. 129 of 2006 on “The Inclusion of Acid Attacks as Specific Offences in the Indian Penal Code and a law for Compensation for Victims of Crime” (PDF)

2 shutdown  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:08:54am

re: #1 CuriousLurker

Don't you think these attacks fall in the same category as so-called "honour killings"? Certainly there are murders or attacks that are perpetrated by Muslims on other Muslims, they are not necessarily a "Muslim" issue. But when they are perpetrated in the name of Islam, and the family's religious honour, do these killings not become a Muslim issue? It is a fine line, and certainly not without controversy, but immediately claiming that it is not a Muslim issue is not necessarily supported by the information in the article. The same would be true if we were discussing the actions of Haredi violence against secular Jews; in some instances it is motivated by religion, in some it is not. I think a valid discussion can be had on the issues.

3 Interesting Times  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:16:58am

re: #2 imp_62

But when they are perpetrated in the name of Islam, and the family's religious honour, do these killings not become a Muslim issue?

Similar "honor killings" occur among Hindus as well. It's more a problem with misogynistic aspects of South Asian culture as opposed to just one particular religion. And I believe CL's objection is to implying this is an exclusively Muslim issue or an innate part of the religion.

Bob Dillon/Bobibutu, I think this page should have been classified under "Asia" or "World News".

4 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:24:04am

re: #2 imp_62

What publicityStunted said. I couldn't respond any more succinctly than she did.

re: #3 publicityStunted

Thanks, pS. You probably saved me from another one of my typically long-winded posts when trying to make a simple point. ;)

5 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:35:26am

re: #2 imp_62

It is a fine line, and certainly not without controversy, but immediately claiming that it is not a Muslim issue is not necessarily supported by the information in the article.

BTW, I didn't say it wasn't a Muslim issue, I said it's not part of Islam. There's a difference there. If a Haredi Jew attacks a secular Jew based on his interpretation of Judaism/Halacha, then it may be classified as a Jewish issue, but I think Jews would take issue with it being filed under the category of Judaism (if there were such a category). I could be wrong though.

6 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:38:33am

Too bad we only have a category for Islam and not for any other religions. It would be interesting to see how they'd be employed.

7 shutdown  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:50:31am

re: #5 CuriousLurker

BTW, I didn't say it wasn't a Muslim issue, I said it's not part of Islam. There's a difference there. If a Haredi Jew attacks a secular Jew based on his interpretation of Judaism/Halacha, then it may be classified as a Jewish issue, but I think Jews would take issue with it being filed under the category of Judaism (if there were such a category). I could be wrong though.

I see the difference and I understand its importance. I also understand the sensitivity to the issue; clearly, to you it is not "part of Islam" (at least as far as I understand Islam, which I admit is not very far). Personally, if a Haredi Jew attacks a secular Jew for solely religious reasons, I cannot see any way around filing it under "Judaism". All that underscores is that there are many viewpoints under the umbrella of a single religion, along with extremism, zealotry and intolerance to the point of violence. When ultra-Orthodox Jews spit on women praying at the Western Wall in a way the ultras disapprove, it is a Jewish issue, and viewed by some of the parties as reflecting values that are "part of Judaism". It is a question of perspective. I would prefer that Judaism be interpreted as more inclusive, and would claim that the actions of the Haredim in this instance are "not part of Judaism". They, however, would disagree.

Similarly, I would much prefer to believe that the actions described in the article are not "part of Islam" from any Muslim's point of view; however, I am not sure that is true.

8 wrenchwench  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:51:05am

re: #1 CuriousLurker

Down-ding for filing this in the Islam category.

Seconded.

I use the "crime" category a lot. This would fit there.

Police officials have filed a report ...

9 researchok  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:57:31am

Updinged because it is an important story.

While I agree with CL's sentiments, I do believe the story is more about particular regional cultures than religion. WW has it right in that regard.

10 Bob Dillon  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:11:29am

Having lived in Asia for the better part of two decades and much of that time spent living, working, educating, playing and sleeping with Muslims, and others - I am coming from - direct personal experience - rather than what I may have learned in a classroom or from results googled over the internet. Perhaps the "extremism" tag was overlooked.

11 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:27:01am

re: #10 Bobibutu

Having lived in Asia for the better part of two decades and much of that time spent living, working, educating, playing and sleeping with Muslims, and others - I am coming from - direct personal experience - rather than what I may have learned in a classroom or from results googled over the internet. Perhaps the "extremism" tag was overlooked.

And I've spent two decades living, working, playing and sleeping as a Muslim as well as educating myself about my faith and interacting with hundreds (if not thousands) of fellow Muslims, so I have a little direct personal experience too.

I repeat, no one said it wasn't a problem amongst Muslims (as well as other groups). You could have filed it under Asia, or Middle East, or Crime, but you chose to file it under Islam instead. It's your Page and therefore you prerogative, just as it's my prerogative as an LGF member to dispute it.

12 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:55:05am

re: #7 imp_62

It is a question of perspective. I would prefer that Judaism be interpreted as more inclusive, and would claim that the actions of the Haredim in this instance are "not part of Judaism". They, however, would disagree.

Similarly, I would much prefer to believe that the actions described in the article are not "part of Islam" from any Muslim's point of view; however, I am not sure that is true.

I understand what you're getting at, and I agree that it's a problem of perspective, but, yeah, I'm sensitive to the issue because if you google things like honor killings, acid throwing, FGM, etc. I wouldn't really blame you if you made the assumption that those things we almost strictly a Muslim issue when in fact they are not. It doesn't help that there are a LOT of anti-Muslim websites intent on feeding that assumption. When we try to make distinctions, shouts of "Taqiyyah!" are hurled at us. It's about pushing back against the narratives that are being woven all across the Web.

As a Jew, I'm sure you're familiar with similar sites. I've seen monstrous lies and incredibly nasty imagery regarding Jews & Israel all over the Web. Not being Jewish or terribly familiar with the precepts of Judaism, Jewish history or, the history & (re)establishment of Israel as a nation, it would be easy enough—if I were sufficiently lazy or incurious—to simply accept the anti-Semitic garbage out there as gospel truth and come to the conclusion that you're all a bunch of murderous, money-grubbing racists who think you're better than everyone else.

That is clearly NOT the case, which I assume is one of the reasons that there are numerous Pages posted here (and elsewhere) daily pushing back against anti-Semitism and promoting Israel's perspective on the I-P situation.

FWIW, I don't recall ever having seen Pages posted about acid attacks by people other than Muslims, for example the numerous occurrences in Hong Kong like this one and these, or the two attack in Arizona, or this one in Thailand...Do you recall seeing them here? Do see my point?

So, yeah, I'll agree that we can say that Hardei attacks on secular Jews, Baruch Goldstein's massacre of Muslims at prayer, Palestinian suicide bombers, Jihadism, acid attacks, the murder of abortion doctors, etc. are the actions of Jewish, Muslim, and Christian extremists, therefore extremism is one aspect of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity (and other non-religious ideologies as well). However...

My problem is not with admitting that there are issues "with extremism, zealotry and intolerance to the point of violence" in various religions, including my own, but in not being specific in indicating them as being outside the norm (regardless of how justified the extremists feel they are). ANY religion, culture, nation, political party, or other group can be painted the color of shit if one uses a broad enough brush.

//I was obviously dead wrong in thinking I could avoid a long-winded post on this subject. *headdesk*

13 shutdown  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:40:12am

re: #12 CuriousLurker

I think, as OP stated later, that a tag of "Extremism" would have been helpful from the beginning. Hey, look at the bright side: we had another good discussion of important issues; as always when you engage me here, I learned something. For that reason, and because the "Extremism" tag was added, I am updinging the page to bring it to par.

14 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:46:27am

re: #13 imp_62

Yeah, since Bob updinged my response to him and even added an "extremism" tag (which I totally missed until you pointed it out just now), and we did indeed have a good discussion here, I guess I really should act like a grown-up and upding all the responses, heh.

15 shutdown  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:56:00am

I think the generally thoughtful, heartfelt and intellectually honest nature of your comportment on lgf allows people to understand where you are coming from here. I doubt Bob is upset - but I cannot speak for him.

16 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:04:51pm

It belongs under the 'spoiled, arrogant, dick-less bastards" category.

17 researchok  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:10:00pm

re: #14 CuriousLurker

Yeah, since Bob updinged my response to him and even added an "extremism" tag (which I totally missed until you pointed it out just now), and we did indeed have a good discussion here, I guess I really should act like a grown-up and upding all the responses, heh.

You're a class act.

That said, can you make a killer chocolate cake?

18 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:25:59pm

re: #17 researchok

I can indeed make a killer chocolate cake. You've reminded me that I need to find a good recipe for raspberry frosting. My favorite sweet in all the world is Godiva's dark chocolate raspberry truffles, but since I don't have easy access to them (and they're expensive!), I want to see if making a dark chocolate cake with raspberry frosting will suffice for those "in between" times.

19 shutdown  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:42:19pm

re: #18 CuriousLurker

I can indeed make a killer chocolate cake. You've reminded me that I need to find a good recipe for raspberry frosting. My favorite sweet in all the world is Godiva's dark chocolate raspberry truffles, but since I don't have easy access to them (and they're expensive!), I want to see if making a dark chocolate cake with raspberry frosting will suffice for those "in between" times.

Chocolate? Raspberry? Allow me:

Chocolate Linzertorte Recipe

20 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:49:12pm

re: #19 imp_62

Chocolate? Raspberry? Allow me:

Chocolate Linzertorte Recipe

Thank you! OMG, I've died an gone to heaven... *gasp, thud*

21 researchok  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:25:47pm

re: #18 CuriousLurker

I can indeed make a killer chocolate cake. You've reminded me that I need to find a good recipe for raspberry frosting. My favorite sweet in all the world is Godiva's dark chocolate raspberry truffles, but since I don't have easy access to them (and they're expensive!), I want to see if making a dark chocolate cake with raspberry frosting will suffice for those "in between" times.

Showoff.
//

I'm a purist- give me killer a chocolate cake with killer frosting and I'll vote for Dennis Kucinich.

22 wrenchwench  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:49:19pm

re: #20 CuriousLurker

Thank you! OMG, I've died an gone to heaven... *gasp, thud*

Chocolate and raspberries get you into heaven in Islam? Sign me up!!!

//

23 shutdown  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:06:32pm

re: #20 CuriousLurker

Thank you! OMG, I've died an gone to heaven... *gasp, thud*

Oh, great. Now who is going to make the cake????

24 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:12:59pm

re: #22 wrenchwench

Chocolate and raspberries get you into heaven in Islam? Sign me up!!!

//

re: #23 imp_62

ROFLOL!!

Oh, great. Now who is going to make the cake???

*all eyes turn to researchok*

25 researchok  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:49:41pm

re: #24 CuriousLurker

re: #23 imp_62

ROFLOL!!

*all eyes turn to researchok*

All eyes are sharing a hallucination.

Group hysteria.

26 Bob Dillon  Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:52:32pm

re: #14 CuriousLurker

Yeah, since Bob updinged my response to him and even added an "extremism" tag (which I totally missed until you pointed it out just now), and we did indeed have a good discussion here, I guess I really should act like a grown-up and upding all the responses, heh.

The "extremism" tag was NOT an added edit - it was part of the original post.


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