Pages

Jump to bottom

18 comments

1 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 6:01:11am

There’s a group of neuroscientists trying to destroy free will as well.

But the simple fact of the matter is that the human mind is too complex to be understood by such simple reduction as these people are performing.

2 kreyagg  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:28:25am

re: #1 Romantic Heretic

I feel compelled to point out that the folks arguing that free will is an illusion usually are using reason and collecting evidence with tools like fMRI while those who support the notion more often than not believe that their chosen holy book contains all the evidence necessary to explain everything (except magnets, of course).

3 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:44:21am

Well gee, thanks. As a card carrying agnostic I really appreciate the comparison. /

But when ‘science’ ‘determines’ there is no free will or evil they are undermining the foundations of ethics. It is reducing humans to mere automatons.

Some people might like that status as it frees them from responsibility. Me? I’ll pass. I’m not a machine, nor am I part of a machine.

And I will stick to my hypothesis that the human mind is too complex to be understood by mere reduction to its processes.

4 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:58:57am

The end of evil? Wouldn’t that also mean the end of good? Two sides of the same coin —no?

One would be meaningless without the other.

Now, the real question is there really evil? Meaning—is evil an entity of it’s own, or is it the absence of good?

5 kreyagg  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 7:59:07am

re: #3 Romantic Heretic

I’m sorry that reality may scare you. People who lack a conscience will still do bad things whether or not they think they have free will.

6 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:04:29am

Anybody read the Robot Series of Novels with the “new law” and “no law” robots?

They moved from the positronic brain to some other long technical name of brain?

I think they were written by Robert Silverberg?

SPOILER: In the end, it was the “no law” robot that made the right choice.

7 kreyagg  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:08:36am

re: #6 ggt

Don’t you mean Asimov?
I read several of the early robots books when I was really young and lost track of that universe until “Robots and Earth” (I think that’s the title).
Then Asimov used Ovilaw pretty heavily in the Fondation prequels and explained why there were so few aliens.

8 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:10:45am

re: #7 kreyagg

Don’t you mean Asimov?
I read several of the early robots books when I was really young and lost track of that universe until “Robots and Earth” (I think that’s the title).

No, I don’t think Asimov was still alive when these were written —there are several Robot novels written by other authors and supossedlly “sanctioned” by Asimov. His name appears on the cover a lot of times.

9 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:10:53am

re: #2 kreyagg

There really is no more proof for a deterministic universe than a non-deterministic one.

10 kreyagg  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:18:55am

re: #9 Obdicut

I think the burden of proof is really on those who are claiming that we do have free will.
And what is the alternative to a nearly infinitely complex deterministic universe? Some Deepak Chopra like woo that consciousness creates reality?

The physical laws and previous state of the universe go in and the future comes out. That you chose 30 minutes on the elliptical trainer over a box of doughnuts doesn’t change the fact that you’re basically just watching the show.

11 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:22:31am

re: #10 kreyagg

I think the burden of proof is really on those who are claiming that we do have free will.

Why?

And what is the alternative to a nearly infinitely complex deterministic universe?

One where some element of randomness exists. It’s not mystical at all, it’s just whether or not, at any point, there is randomness, especially at the quantum level.

There is no jump from ‘the universe is non-deterministic’ to ‘there is such a thing as free will’, either. You can have a non-deterministic universe where free will is still an illusion.

12 Curt  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:24:23am

re: #5 kreyagg

I’m sorry that reality may scare you. People who lack a conscience will still do bad things whether or not they think they have free will.

RH point is well taken. Like cloning and so many other endeavors of humanity to have claimed the infinite understanding of a discipline, we usually, later, sometimes too much later, come to the understanding that complexity, is well, complex…and “we” didn’t grasp the…..complexity of it all.

Most certainly, when scientists thought it was a good thing for electro-shock therapy to solve such problems of mental “illness.” Then let’s not forget thinks like DDT and thalidomide, etc…that were the answers.

On top of that, who will decide the the % of entangled/missing “circuitry” that is a dead sure indicator of someone who will definitely do bad things and to what degreee and then how do we convict in the future? “Minority Report,” albeit a movie, tried to deal with this.

Complexity beyond our grasp…..

13 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:30:30am

As I understand Free Will.

We have control over what we say and what we do. After that it is all karma …

:)

14 kreyagg  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:42:12am

re: #11 Obdicut

re: #10 kreyagg

I think the burden of proof is really on those who are claiming that we do have free will.

Why?

Mainly because the free will people are insisting that it is there. They are making a positive statement of it existing. I think that they may need to come up with more proof than their usual arguments of “This is how I feel” and/or “God did it”.

I’m not under the impression that this sort of determinism precludes randomness. That we can’t know exactly when/if that particle decays shouldn’t make any more difference than me not being able to explain why I prefer Blue Mountain to Kona.

15 kreyagg  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:48:32am

re: #12 Curt

Complexity beyond our grasp…

Oh, well that solves it then. We don’t currently understand it so why bother trying to study it!

16 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:55:52am

Just because you’ll never absolutely succeed at something doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try.

But, we’ll never be omniscient. It behooves us to act knowing our ignorance.

17 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 8:58:45am

re: #16 Romantic Heretic

Just because you’ll never absolutely succeed at something doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try.

But, we’ll never be omniscient. It behooves us to act knowing our ignorance.

Very often exciting discoverys are made along the way and you find that they are preferable to the original goal.

18 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 8, 2011 9:05:49am

re: #14 kreyagg

Why?

Mainly because the free will people are insisting that it is there. They are making a positive statement of it existing.

Sure. And the hardcore determinists are making a positive statement that the universe is entirely deterministic. Which would appear to include you.

I think that they may need to come up with more proof than their usual arguments of “This is how I feel” and/or “God did it”

Are you unaware of the argument that quantum effects could be the source of free will?

I’m not under the impression that this sort of determinism precludes randomness.

The definition of determinism precludes randomness. It doesn’t preclude apparent randomness. But determinism literally says that the way things have happened is the only way they could have happened.

There’s also the philosophical point that it makes absolutely no difference if free will is an illusion or not.


This page has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
4 weeks ago
Views: 475 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1