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1 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 10:25:50am

This isn't even a news story, nor is it an academic summary. It's a press release from an advocacy group. You may as well post a press release from the AAAOM, just to complete the picture.

This is a political question of who gets the money. If I go to a health food store, the supplements cost as much as med's co-pay. If I go to acupuncture, the session costs a little more than a co-pay to an MD.

The fact that I do purchase supplements and go for acupuncture treatments is indicative of how pleased I am with the results of conventional medicine. If one were to argue that the efficacy is little more than a placebo, I would say fine--if it's so easy, how about MDs begin to duplicate the placebo?

2 dallasdoc  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 10:30:34am

I do acupuncture. it has been demonstrated to be useful in but a few indications. in my hands it has been useful only for very few problems. all acupuncturists i know love treating knees because the results are so reliable. for other reasons, not so much. so i advocate more research on the issue but lets pay for only evidence based treatments.... and that should go for typical medical interventions too which would save orders of magnitude more money.

3 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 10:56:46am

re: #2 dallasdoc

I hear what you're saying--however, this isn't a scientific question, is it? I believe this issue is a matter of who gets the piece of the pie.

But let's say it is a scientific issue, just for a second. I know a good deal about acupuncture, and what you are saying doesn't make medical sense--from the perspective of the Asian model, the Asian notion of anatomy and physiology. I only bring this up because I'm not sure the studies are accurate. It seems that when comparing the two systems, the Asian model is turned into a straw man--which means entire studies are compromised.

4 dallasdoc  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 11:08:03am

ahh... but this is a science question. does the intervention work or does it not? that is the question, and only a scientific study can answer that. this is not an issue of taste or personal philosophy or religious faith. The asian model as you call it has little science to it. there is no asian notion of anatomy there is only anatomy. there is no asian notion of physiology, there is only scientific physiology, anything else is, well, not scientific and not worth supporting. you want to go to a non scientific medical practitioner, fine,,, just dont ask me, through my tax dollars, to pay for it. and lets not pay for what regular doctors do that is not scientifically based either, just to be fair and show you that i dont have a nut for so called non orthodox treatment

5 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 11:09:30am

re: #4 dallasdoc

I guess you probably didn't mean to downding this post then ;)

6 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 11:14:43am

They shouldn't pay for Chiropractic either!

7 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 11:21:09am

re: #4 dallasdoc

Okay, between us it's a science question. Are you picking the right intervention? And how would you know? How does an acupuncturist choose what to do, how do they diagnose?

If it's a scientific question, didn't you fix the results before the study even begins by simply asserting that there is no Asian model, no Asian notion of anatomy and physiology? If you assert that these things don't exist, or are not based in reality, then what are you studying?

Believe me, I'm not asking your tax dollars to pay for it. Although I'm not sure why your pockets are open to the prescriptions and treatments for the side effects of pharmaceuticals. My pharmacist showed me a little thing that passes around, pharmacist humor. Basically the joke is that on Monday a guy takes meds for his disease, on Tuesday he takes meds for the side effects of the meds he took on Monday, on Wednesday...you get the idea.

8 dallasdoc  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 12:09:50pm

re: #6 ReamWorks

well....duh

9 kreyagg  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 12:11:38pm

Acupuncture is a placebo. If you want to be treated by the equivalent of a witch doctor, please do so out of your own pocket.


[Link: sci-ence.org...]
[Link: sci-ence.org...]

10 dallasdoc  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 12:13:30pm

re: #7 Bob Levin

re fixing the question. there are ways to test a hypothesis. and this is not the forum to teach it to you. if you advocate for an intervention, you have to show that it works. please go read up on the rules for evidence based medicine. where acupuncture and other interventions can be shown to have measurable effects, lets do it. but lets test them and respect the evidence

11 kreyagg  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 12:26:02pm

re: #10 dallasdoc

But you see, it has worked for him. That's all the proof he needs. I think it fixed his neck pain.

12 dallasdoc  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 1:13:23pm

re: #11 kreyagg

that may well be all the "proof he needs" but it is not adequate proof to anyone else. under the rules of evidence based medicine anecdotal evidence is not proof of anything, just a basis of establishing a question for serious study.

13 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 1:14:48pm

re: #10 dallasdoc

I'm aware of the philosophy of science. I didn't advocate for an intervention. I asked you--how do you determine which intervention to use if you are testing a hypothesis regarding acupuncture--after initially simply dismissing any and all theories that form its basis.

And if you simply dismiss those notions without testing, how is this science? What possible evidence can you gather?

14 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 5, 2012 1:16:24pm

re: #12 dallasdoc

Exactly. I'm saying that there is a basis for serious study. And so I don't want the results fixed before the study begins.


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