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1 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, May 19, 2012 11:20:06am

In America, prison = revenge

so dumb America would never accept the norway model

2 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 19, 2012 7:19:39pm

The Norway model may also allow andres brevik out of prison in 21 years ... No thanks

3 HappyWarrior  Sat, May 19, 2012 7:34:04pm

I think the best answer is somewhere in between the two models. I really don't like the death penalty because like it or not our justice system is imperfect and we have executed innocents before. On the other hand, I'd like life to mean life too. No way in hell should a guy like Brevik be able to walk a free man again.

4 Gus  Sat, May 19, 2012 7:36:34pm

America can learn more from Norway than Norway can learn from America.

5 Gus  Sat, May 19, 2012 7:40:40pm

re: #1 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

In America, prison = revenge

so dumb America would never accept the norway model

Big time. Fire and brimstone and all that jazz. In a way, we've set up our penal system as though it was designed by criminal minds itself. It's inherent brutality, isolation and savagery. It is about revenge and it feeds the latent sadism. It is as thought the criminals and the criminal justice system is a self sustaining system. Hence the recidivism.

6 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 19, 2012 7:43:55pm

Punishment is different from revenge ...

7 Obdicut  Sat, May 19, 2012 10:39:52pm

re: #2 _RememberTonyC

The Norway model may also allow andres brevik out of prison in 21 years ... No thanks

It might. And any prisoner in the US system might get let out at any moment due to a pardon. So what?

He'll be kept in prison forever, most likely. They have a review set up for just that purpose, for the incorrigible.

8 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 20, 2012 5:14:27am

re: #7 Obdicut

It might. And any prisoner in the US system might get let out at any moment due to a pardon. So what?

He'll be kept in prison forever, most likely. They have a review set up for just that purpose, for the incorrigible.

Norway and the US are different places. What "works" there doesn't automatically work here. I don't have any problem with executing a man like Brevik, who admitted killing more than 70 people. In Norway, there is no chance he will be executed. Although i go back and forth on my feelings about capital punishment, I choose our system.

9 steve_davis  Sun, May 20, 2012 11:12:14am

Reminds me of the moment in Lillyhammer where Giovanni gets thrown in the clinker for a couple of days, and looks around in bewilderment at his prison room, complete with television and curtains on the window. "I should have gotten arrested sooner."

10 aagcobb  Sun, May 20, 2012 1:20:43pm

re: #2 _RememberTonyC

The Norway model may also allow andres brevik out of prison in 21 years ... No thanks

That's an easy enough tweak. Wouldn't you like to have a recidivism rate of 16% for the millions of American inmates who will be released?

11 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 20, 2012 4:56:43pm

re: #5 Gus

Big time. Fire and brimstone and all that jazz. In a way, we've set up our penal system as though it was designed by criminal minds itself. It's inherent brutality, isolation and savagery. It is about revenge and it feeds the latent sadism. It is as thought the criminals and the criminal justice system is a self sustaining system. Hence the recidivism.

it is

the more criminals there are, the more prison industry, the more police power, the more police funding

12 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 20, 2012 4:58:55pm

re: #2 _RememberTonyC

The Norway model may also allow andres brevik out of prison in 21 years ... No thanks

The American model executes innocent people and targets black people

I would HAPPILY take Norway, with Breivik's 20 years and out over our system with its systemic racism, and massive prison industry

If revenge is more important to you than fairness and innocents being executed by our own government, just say it

13 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 20, 2012 5:42:41pm

re: #12 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

The American model executes innocent people and targets black people

I would HAPPILY take Norway, with Breivik's 20 years and out over our system with its systemic racism, and massive prison industry

If revenge is more important to you than fairness and innocents being executed by our own government, just say it

You should move there ... I'll pay for your ticket.

14 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 20, 2012 6:26:32pm

Very disappointing to see a personal attack receive an upding ...

15 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 21, 2012 1:44:34am

re: #13 _RememberTonyC

You should move there ... I'll pay for your ticket.

You should suck my cock! i'll pay for your dress :D

16 Obdicut  Mon, May 21, 2012 3:13:06am

re: #14 _RememberTonyC

Very disappointing to see a personal attack receive an upding ...

Telling someone they should move to another country is also a personal attack.

I understand the desire to see Brevik dead. I doubt he will do any good to the world alive. But the power of the state to execute is always abused. Texas, as it has come to light, really has executed an innocent man. This will always happen. The death penalty will always wind up killing those who don't deserve it.

To choose our system precisely because of its lethality over a system like Norway's that actually reduces the level of crime seems mindbogglingly weird to me. The goal of the justice system should be to protect the citizenry from criminals, and the absolute best way to do that is to stop criminals from re-offending. Norway is much, much, much, much, much better at us than this. We should learn from them, and not spike ourselves in the eye with pride.

17 _RememberTonyC  Mon, May 21, 2012 5:32:03am

re: #16 Obdicut

Telling someone they should move to another country is also a personal attack.

I understand the desire to see Brevik dead. I doubt he will do any good to the world alive. But the power of the state to execute is always abused. Texas, as it has come to light, really has executed an innocent man. This will always happen. The death penalty will always wind up killing those who don't deserve it.

To choose our system precisely because of its lethality over a system like Norway's that actually reduces the level of crime seems mindbogglingly weird to me. The goal of the justice system should be to protect the citizenry from criminals, and the absolute best way to do that is to stop criminals from re-offending. Norway is much, much, much, much, much better at us than this. We should learn from them, and not spike ourselves in the eye with pride.

No Obdi, it was a very mild response to the latest in a string of personal insults from a very obnoxious individual. Maybe you can take a look at comment #15 which is a fine example. As for your assumptions that I like our system because of its "lethality," you also make a big mistake. I am amazed to be in the company of so many mind readers.

18 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, May 21, 2012 6:23:43am

re: #8 _RememberTonyC

Norway and the US are different places. What "works" there doesn't automatically work here. I don't have any problem with executing a man like Brevik, who admitted killing more than 70 people. In Norway, there is no chance he will be executed. Although i go back and forth on my feelings about capital punishment, I choose our system.

I wouldn't cry if Breivik were executed, but once you make capital punishment a system, you get innocents killed.


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