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1 freekurdistan  Fri, Sep 21, 2012 3:35:09pm

doesn't it seem wrong to ban the protests? they should have the right to express their opinions peacefully just as the magazine has its own right free expression.

2 Destro  Fri, Sep 21, 2012 3:48:53pm

re: #1 freekurdistan

I said it often, in Europe where they have slaughtered each other for less than this has some laws to ban some sort of speech or assembly - for example anti-hate crime laws and laws that ban Nazi parties, etc.

In the USA we can't understand that and hate that but in Europe it makes sense - and having lived there I tend to agree that for individual European countries such laws do more good than bad.

3 Locker  Fri, Sep 21, 2012 6:21:43pm

It seems, historically, that protests of these nature aren't peaceful. Any government which ignores the warning signs is being stupid. Actions taken vary a lot from country to country but I'm not going to fault France for taking care of their own security.

Where do they put "protesters" in this country now? In a corral as far away as possible from the target of their protest.

4 EiMitch  Fri, Sep 21, 2012 8:25:49pm

re: #2 Destro

I said it often, in Europe where they have slaughtered each other for less than this...

In between looking down their noses at us Americans, the pompous hypocrites. But I digress.

for example anti-hate crime laws and laws that ban Nazi parties, etc.

We've got hate-crime laws in America. Or were you talking about hate speech?

re: #3 Locker

It seems, historically, that protests of these nature aren't peaceful.

And they'll get more peaceful by denying them practice, making them shut-up, and adding to the persecution/culture-war inflammatory bs. Yeah, that'll mellow them out. /sarc

Every single time some radical Islamists kill people over cartoons, we're like "they really should learn how to deal with these things peacefully. To counter speech they don't like with their own speech." But now France is saying to muslims "you're not mature enough to have freedom of speech." What recourse does that leave musilms, just shutting the f*** up? Fat chance!

This is short-sighted, tribal-esque, racist bulls***. Its going to backfire on France. Mark my words.

5 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 21, 2012 9:38:02pm

Are Muslims still allowed to write angry letters to the newspaper in France, or is that going to be cracked down on as well?

6 Destro  Sat, Sep 22, 2012 12:51:08am

re: #4 EiMitch

The USA's murder rate and incarceration rate kind of preclude its people from being too much of a role model for Western behavior. French Muslims can demonstrate, but not now. Just like Americans can buy a firearm as is their right, but there is a waiting period.

7 Gus  Sat, Sep 22, 2012 1:07:49am

Heh. Freedom of speech.

8 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 22, 2012 9:01:50am

re: #6 Destro

The USA's murder rate and incarceration rate kind of preclude its people from being too much of a role model for Western behavior. French Muslims can demonstrate, but not now. Just like Americans can buy a firearm as is their right, but there is a waiting period.

Waiting periods apply to everyone.

Sounds like this is an arbitrary ban that can apply any time the dominant culture doesn't want the bother and risk of allowing people to protest. What that's going to mean to the average law-abiding Muslim is that France will protect the right of 'Charlie Hebdo' to mock their faith, but not their right to say that sucks.

What was that funny word you kept trying to teach everyone...blowback? Don't see any of that coming out of this, no sirree. They're just going to have to wait. Be patient, like.

9 EiMitch  Sat, Sep 22, 2012 11:28:59am

re: #6 Destro

French Muslims can demonstrate, but not now.

And terrorism suspects are entitled to a fair trial. But not now.

Far right and/or racist domestic policies in america prove how f***ed-up we are, but who are we to judge far-right and/or racist domestic policies in france?

Jullian Assange is the target of a conspiracy to secretly extradite him to america to be held and waterboarded without trial. How dare we!

But telling a bunch of muslims to shut up? Meh, another day in the life of a more mature, sophisticated society.

Pompous hypocrites make my blood boil.

Oh, and as SanFranciscoZionist pointed out, you completely ignored my point about "blowback." You just focused on rationalizing why Europe is still better than us Yankee yokels, and why oppressive measure are okay when it happens over there. Us yanks are too ignorant to understand democracy well enough to take it away from the right undesirables for the right reasons.

Hey, why don't we start suppressing the civil liberties of muslims here some more. I mean, since us Americans should be following Europe's example, and all? Why stop at profiling them at the airport, when we can prohibit them from building minarets and all that?

Did I mention that pompous hypocrites make my blood boil? Because they f***ing do!

10 Destro  Sat, Sep 22, 2012 1:19:51pm

re: #8 SanFranciscoZionist

More like a case by case basis than an arbitrary ban.

11 Destro  Sat, Sep 22, 2012 1:21:38pm

re: #9 EiMitch

Denyinga permit to protest when there is a danger of violence is common sense - makes sense on a country by country basis.

12 EiMitch  Sat, Sep 22, 2012 1:42:22pm

re: #11 Destro

And that danger is real because the French government found evidence of a terrorist cell plotting to...

No wait! Its just muslims who got offended. F** 'em! They're all dangerous terrorists. But if any other group protests because they've been slandered by a-holes, there is absolutely no risk of violence. None whatsoever. Nuh-uh! /sarc

Pretty much ANY protest is fueled by anger. ANY protest could get violent. Singling out muslims over this is just bigotry.

13 Destro  Sat, Sep 22, 2012 6:57:57pm

re: #12 EiMitch

There was a terror attack on a Kosher market in France a day or so ago. Linked to this? No clue. But I understand why France would deny an assembly permit.

Just like I understand why Germany bans Scientologists and Nazis.

I understand country to country sensativities in these cases.

14 EiMitch  Sat, Sep 22, 2012 7:44:59pm

re: #13 Destro

You're really content with rephrasing the same argument over & over? Then please allow me to do the same. *ahem*

In World War 2, America put pretty much the entire Japanese-American population of the west coast in interment camps. The US government didn't know that Imperial Japan's spies and saboteurs in America were all Caucasians. But I can understand why FDR and company would deny an entire race their civil rights.

"Thats not the same thing at all" you say? Be honest, whats the fundamental difference other than a matter of degree? Both are judging an entire racial and/or religious group guilty until proven innocent, and denying them their rights, just because they believe that someone amongst them might be a threat.

You say "country to country sensativities sensitivities," I say "cognitive dissonance."

Do you really want to keep this going back and forth until one of us gets sick of it and walks away? Or are you ready to admit that Europe is just as f**ed-up as America, only in different ways? And that any notion of either being more enlightened than the other is little more than nationalist and/or otherwise narcissistic dick-measuring?

15 Destro  Sat, Sep 22, 2012 8:50:52pm

re: #14 EiMitch

Western Europe is in some ways better than America and in some ways not as good.

But I do notice Americans, as a result of the paranoid style of American poltics tend to view EVERYTHING is a slippery slope towards some sort of tyranny.

You know how many times I have heard that we can't pass gun legislation, because Hitler banned gun ownership? Stuff like that needs to stop.

When you have heated rhetoric and violence it's OK for a nation like France to ban assemblies till things cool down. In the USA it would not be OK.

16 EiMitch  Sat, Sep 22, 2012 11:01:46pm

re: #15 Destro

But I do notice Americans, as a result of the paranoid style of American poltics tend to view EVERYTHING is a slippery slope towards some sort of tyranny.

Not my point at all. Thats just a strawman. I made it quite explicit that my point was that group-judgement/guilt-by-association/guilty-until-proven-innocent is just racist. And "that old slippery-slope-to-tyranny chestnut" is what gleaned from it? Are you missing the point on purpose?!

But since you wanted to bring up the "slippery slope" argument anyway, I've got a question: How is it that government actions that explicitly inhibit civil liberties aren't necessarily a slippery slope to tyranny, but extending freedom of speech to include stupid hate speech is? Why is not cool to let idiots out themselves as bigots, but cool to trust those already in power to cross the line for the "right" reasons? Why do words lead to darkness but actions don't?

I digress.

When you have heated rhetoric and violence it's OK for a nation like France to ban assemblies till things cool down.

Still just repeating the same argument like its a new one?

Its ok, huh? Even if the violence has no causal connection to the rhetoric in question? Sorry, but you're applying "better safe than sorry" to "muslims = violence." And like I said before, any protest can turn ugly. Picking on muslims like they're unique about this is just racist.

Oh, I forgot. There was a terrorist attack the other day, unrelated to the protesters. But they're muslims, so lets assume they might have something to do with it anyway, and take away their right to demonstrate "just in case."

Its racist, and for some reason you can't admit that. Hell, you can't even admit that this discussion is just treading water. We've been going back and forth with the same s***.

BTW, how the hell does one quantify when things have "cooled down"? Do a certain number of days have to pass without incident? Or is this a subjective analysis made by the whim of "non-tyrants"?

Hey, you brought up the "slippery slope" crap. Deal with it.

In case you missed the point again: its racism.


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