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1 wheat-dogghazi  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:16:10am

Words fail me. The sister in this family might be the only decent person in the bunch.

2 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:03:58am

re: #1 wheat-dogghazi

Words fail me. The sister in this family might be the only decent person in the bunch.

Makes me wonder what she has endured.

3 Jolo5309  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:21:27am

Jesus fuck, what kind of sick bastards do this?

Oh right, I forgot, the religious ones.

4 CuriousLurker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:45:23am

Yeah, because there's no such thing as sick atheist bastards. Guys like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. were all...oh, wait. //

5 Jolo5309  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 11:48:43am

re: #4 CuriousLurker

Yeah, because there's no such thing as sick atheist bastards. Guys like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. were all...oh, wait. //

Seriously? You can argue that Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin did what they did in the name of atheism?

Go ahead, I will wait.

6 CuriousLurker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 11:53:03am

re: #5 Jolo5309

Seriously? You can argue that Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin did what they did in the name of atheism?

Go ahead, I will wait.

Did I say they did it in the name of atheism? Please point out where.

Go ahead, I will wait.

7 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 2:24:03pm

re: #6 CuriousLurker

It's really a poor time to bring up those dudes. There really is violence against gay people inspired by religious fervor. It's not all religious people, but almost all of the dominant religions in the world have something against gay people. It's great that there are liberal religious people who fight back against that, but it is good to acknowledge, especially after a horrific attack like this, that many religions preach intolerance, and intolerance leads to violence.

8 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 3:09:34pm

re: #6 CuriousLurker

Did I say they did it in the name of atheism? Please point out where.

Go ahead, I will wait.

I figure you put the sarc tags there for a reason.

9 CuriousLurker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 3:29:59pm

re: #7 Obdicut

It's really a poor time to bring up those dudes. There really is violence against gay people inspired by religious fervor. It's not all religious people, but almost all of the dominant religions in the world have something against gay people. It's great that there are liberal religious people who fight back against that, but it is good to acknowledge, especially after a horrific attack like this, that many religions preach intolerance, and intolerance leads to violence.

I know you're right, but sometimes I get sick & tired of the atheists who seem to feel the need to snipe at religion and/or religious people at every opportunity (like my Thanksgiving story) and this was one of those times.

I've consistently spoken out against intolerance & violence countless times; anyone who's been here any length of time knows that, and Jolo has been here longer than I. I up-dinged the Page because I agreed with Frank and was going to leave a comment, then I saw Jolo's comment and I *twitched* because he made it sound like only religious people could produce such "sick bastards". That's simply not true. That was my point, albeit perhaps not made at the most opportune time.

I prolly shouldn't comment before I've had my 2nd cup of coffee in the morning as that's when I tend to be at my twitchiest and let people who I'd otherwise ignore get under my skin.

10 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 3:45:43pm

re: #9 CuriousLurker

I know you're right, but sometimes I get sick & tired of the atheists who seem to feel the need to snipe at religion and/or religious people at every opportunity (like my Thanksgiving story) and this was one of those times.

Every day, many people are hurt and killed in the name of religion. It appears as a perversion of religion to you, but to many of these people it is an honest, if terrible, expression of their faith. This story is not some story where religion had to be crowbarred in.

I've consistently spoken out against intolerance & violence countless times; anyone who's been here any length of time knows that, and Jolo has been here longer than I.

However, you're a rarity among devout people. Sadly, the majority of Muslims in many countries are extremely intolerant of homosexuality. So are the majority of Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. etc. I respect your right to follow your religion, and especially your desire to liberalize it, but in identifying with a larger group you have to, in some way, shoulder responsibility for the dominant attitudes of that group. I know of very few LBGT-friendly Muslim groups in the US. Far more are intolerant of homosexuality.

then I saw Jolo's comment and I *twitched* because he made it sound like only religious people could produce such "sick bastards". That's simply not true. That was my point, albeit perhaps not made at the most opportune time.

See, I thought he was saying that only the religious bastards do this sort of crime-- beat a woman because she is something that according to their religion is an abomination. Certainly, gay women get assaulted by homophobes for other reasons, and you can make an argument that it wasn't really religion in this case if you stretch it, but there are religious assholes who beat women, throw acid in their face, etc. for all sorts of things.

There are vanishingly few crimes inspired by atheism-- none of the people you mentioned count. There was a lot of anti-clericalism during the Terror. There have been other cases. But in general, crimes committed in the name of God by people who, if we're honest, actually are religiously devout, vastly outweighs those committed by atheists in the name of atheism, even taking the respective proportions of the population into account. This is because it is far, far easier to have a radicalized form of religion than a radicalized view of skeptical philosophy.

I prolly shouldn't comment before I've had my 2nd cup of coffee in the morning as that's when I tend to be at my twitchiest and let people who I'd otherwise ignore get under my skin.

I want to make sure you understand what I'm saying. I think I'm among the most tolerant of atheists, and I know that change must come slow to trees as old as Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, but god damn it it some days burns me up to hell that in the twenty-first century, in the US, we still have people being murdered because someone's 'god' told them to. The concept of god, of revealed truth, of ineffability, is a dangerous one. It is far too easy, I feel, for the moderate religious to say "Well, my religion is nothing like that" and look away from the problem. The vast majority of the world's religions remain bigoted, and actively work to impede human rights for gay people.

And in no case is this even something that's stressed in the texts. It is a very chosen, and often, it seems to me, a very cynical approach.

11 CuriousLurker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 4:39:56pm

re: #10 Obdicut

Every day, many people are hurt and killed in the name of religion. It appears as a perversion of religion to you, but to many of these people it is an honest, if terrible, expression of their faith. This story is not some story where religion had to be crowbarred in.

I know, but I'm human. I twitch. Twitching isn't about being rational, and sometimes I'm not.

However, you're a rarity among devout people. Sadly, the majority of Muslims in many countries are extremely intolerant of homosexuality. So are the majority of Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. etc. I respect your right to follow your religion, and especially your desire to liberalize it, but in identifying with a larger group you have to, in some way, shoulder responsibility for the dominant attitudes of that group. I know of very few LBGT-friendly Muslim groups in the US. Far more are intolerant of homosexuality.

I'm not sure I agree with the bolded part. I need to think about it some more.

There are vanishingly few crimes inspired by atheism-- none of the people you mentioned count. There was a lot of anti-clericalism during the Terror. There have been other cases. But in general, crimes committed in the name of God by people who, if we're honest, actually are religiously devout, vastly outweighs those committed by atheists in the name of atheism, even taking the respective proportions of the population into account. This is because it is far, far easier to have a radicalized form of religion than a radicalized view of skeptical philosophy.

You're correct, of course, but my point was not that the things I mentioned were inspired by atheism, but rather that many horrible, violent things have been perpetrated by atheists despite their lack of religious inspiration. Yeah, I know, poor logic/comparison. I knew that as I was typing it and figured I'd get called on it, but I went ahead and posted it anyway because I was annoyed and it made me feel better (temporarily).

I want to make sure you understand what I'm saying. I think I'm among the most tolerant of atheists, and I know that change must come slow to trees as old as Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, but god damn it it some days burns me up to hell that in the twenty-first century, in the US, we still have people being murdered because someone's 'god' told them to. The concept of god, of revealed truth, of ineffability, is a dangerous one. It is far too easy, I feel, for the moderate religious to say "Well, my religion is nothing like that" and look away from the problem. The vast majority of the world's religions remain bigoted, and actively work to impede human rights for gay people.

And in no case is this even something that's stressed in the texts. It is a very chosen, and often, it seems to me, a very cynical approach.

I think understand what you're saying now. Speaking of bigotry, I ran across some pretty serious anti-Semitism a couple of weeks ago from a fellow Muslim. This was an educated, professional person, in fact a person who I was dealing with in their professional capacity. I was more than a little taken aback that this individual felt so comfortable expressing such sentiments in that setting. The assumption seemed to be that I'd agree simply because we were both Muslim.

12 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 2:58:36am

re: #11 CuriousLurker

I'm not sure I agree with the bolded part. I need to think about it some more.

I know the instinct is to reject it, but I hope you will think about it some more. It's the "What does it mean to be an X?" question. Does me being American mean that I have responsibility for the US's actions? Most would say a definite yes-- I live here, I vote, I pay taxes. That doesn't mean I can't honestly say I oppose those actions-- there are many things the US does I oppose. But my opposition to them shows my responsibility for them. I agitate for legislation to correct prison conditions, I vote for those who will enact policies I do agree with, etc. etc.

Are you, as a Muslim, responsible for the actions of other Muslims? No, definitely not-- but what does it mean for you to be a Muslim, and for them to be Muslims as well? You can say that the fanatics are not really Muslims, but then we're in the very tricky area of warring ideas of apostacy, dressed in the garb of the No True Scotsman. The sad truth is that interviews with religious fanatics tend to show sincerity: they really are highly devout, often deeply troubled in their religious relationship but have sincerity.

The problem with organized religion is that it is organized: by laying claim to the tradition, bound by text and historical personages and all the rest, I feel that, like stating your allegiance with anything else, you then take on some responsibility. For you, as a highly liberal Muslim, that responsibility is trying to liberalize Islam. Not exactly small potatoes, but neither is trying to get prison conditions in the US fixed. I'm not saying you bear responsibility and therefore you should be blamed or punished, I'm saying that by being Muslim, by being part of any religion, someone shoulders the responsibility of doing what they can to move that group in the right direction.

You're correct, of course, but my point was not that the things I mentioned were inspired by atheism, but rather that many horrible, violent things have been perpetrated by atheists despite their lack of religious inspiration. Yeah, I know, poor logic/comparison. I knew that as I was typing it and figured I'd get called on it, but I went ahead and posted it anyway because I was annoyed and it made me feel better (temporarily).

How deeply human of you, you terrible person you.

Speaking of bigotry, I ran across some pretty serious anti-Semitism a couple of weeks ago from a fellow Muslim. This was an educated, professional person, in fact a person who I was dealing with in their professional capacity. I was more than a little taken aback that this individual felt so comfortable expressing such sentiments in that setting. The assumption seemed to be that I'd agree simply because we were both Muslim.

Yes, it's that normalization of things that I'm talking about. Homophobia is normalized in almost all major religions. Even if it's considered rude to talk about how disgusting 'faggots' are and how much you hate them, it's considered fine to assert gays make worse parents than straight people, or argue that gay relationships aren't the same so they shouldn't be called marriage, or, simply, assert that god thinks gays live in constant sin. And from that intolerance springs actual harm to gay people, from the very literal prevention of their civil rights to the harm visited on this poor girl.

To sum it up: Most religion is scary to the outsider like myself looking in because, at the root of it, it's an assertion that they know what god wants and what he hates. They know what 'sin' is, not based on philosophy or decency, but on revealed truth. This is why it's so hard to liberalize religion: you have to either admit that much of what the religion believed was revealed truth wasn't, or you have to come up with a brand-spanking new religious revealed truth.

13 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:37:30am

re: #12 Obdicut

I know the instinct is to reject it, but I hope you will think about it some more. It's the "What does it mean to be an X?" question. Does me being American mean that I have responsibility for the US's actions? Most would say a definite yes-- I live here, I vote, I pay taxes. That doesn't mean I can't honestly say I oppose those actions-- there are many things the US does I oppose. But my opposition to them shows my responsibility for them. I agitate for legislation to correct prison conditions, I vote for those who will enact policies I do agree with, etc. etc.

Are you, as a Muslim, responsible for the actions of other Muslims? No, definitely not-- but what does it mean for you to be a Muslim, and for them to be Muslims as well? You can say that the fanatics are not really Muslims, but then we're in the very tricky area of warring ideas of apostacy, dressed in the garb of the No True Scotsman. The sad truth is that interviews with religious fanatics tend to show sincerity: they really are highly devout, often deeply troubled in their religious relationship but have sincerity.

The problem with organized religion is that it is organized: by laying claim to the tradition, bound by text and historical personages and all the rest, I feel that, like stating your allegiance with anything else, you then take on some responsibility. For you, as a highly liberal Muslim, that responsibility is trying to liberalize Islam. Not exactly small potatoes, but neither is trying to get prison conditions in the US fixed. I'm not saying you bear responsibility and therefore you should be blamed or punished, I'm saying that by being Muslim, by being part of any religion, someone shoulders the responsibility of doing what they can to move that group in the right direction.

Okay, I see what you're saying now. It makes sense now. Thanks for always taking the time to discuss things calmly and in detail, minus any snark. ;)


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 Frank says:

You wouldn't know a revolution if it bit you on the dick. -- In response to a young crowd member continually shouting "Revolution" between songs at a late 60's gig. The gig was at Middle Earth in Indianapolis, Indiana.