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1 stabby  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 9:27:16am

I still do not see any reason why deposing Assad in favor of these Syrian rebel groups would be an improvement.

Well you’ve got one of the most repressive states on earth.

Yeah the choice is “badly oppressing (and slaughtering) the majority” vs. “possibly badly oppressing (and possibly slaughtering) minorities”

I tend to think that awful as it is, oppressing the majority is worse. No matter how horrible majority rule will be, allowing it is progress.

The middle east can be unbelievable brutal, but you’re not telling the whole story unless you include how unfailingly brutal the Assad regime has been all along. It’s been monstrous.

2 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 11:30:05am

re: #1 stabby

Don’t bother talking to him. He a bigoted thug who despises Muslims and Western Christians. He thinks the Serbian Rape Camps during the Bosnian War was a good thing. He’ll defend any two-bit anti American nutcase, even if they commit crimes we can’t even fathom here. He’ll defend Putin and thuggery, or China and it’s outright imperialism.

There’s a nice, cozy spot waiting in hell for him.

3 Destro  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 11:30:06am

re: #1 stabby

Well you’ve got one of the most repressive states on earth.

Repressive in some ways and better off in other ways.

Why do Americans have such un-nuanced sense of the world.

Who was better off before the civil war? A native Christian in Egypt or a native Christian in Assad’s Syria? That is one example. The other is Iraq where Saddam was repressive but there was no war between religious sects.

4 Gus  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 11:33:22am

I searched the article for “Tea Party” and “Republican” but couldn’t find either.

5 Destro  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 11:33:44am

re: #2 ProBosniaLiberal

Don’t bother talking to him. He a bigoted thug who despises Muslims and Western Christians. He thinks the Serbian Rape Camps during the Bosnian War was a good thing. He’ll defend any two-bit anti American nutcase, even if they commit crimes we can’t even fathom here. He’ll defend Putin and thuggery, or China and it’s outright imperialism.

There’s a nice, cozy spot waiting in hell for him.

Incorrect, I despise all religions. And you accuse me of being anti-Muslim yet others accuse me of being anti-Israel because I support a Palestinian homeland from the occupied territories. Make up your minds already. Now if you said I am anti-American and hate all American allies that would at least be consistent. But no!!!!!

And I did not say Serb rape camps were a good thing - I just said (after you brought it up as a gotcha question, mind you) it did not make me like the cause of the Neo-Nazi Croats and the Bosnian SS lead Muslims just because the Serbs were the bad guys. The fact that the Red Army raped every woman they could find in Germany does not make me side with the German Nazis either and I am glad the Soviets won - despite the rapes.

6 Destro  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 11:34:21am

re: #4 Gus

What part of “Just having some fun with the analogies” did you not get?

7 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 11:34:34am

re: #3 Destro

We are nuanced, you violent thug.

And sectarian wars are a normal fact of life. Look at the 30 years war, the Troubles in Northern Ireland, the Sunni-Shia wars, among other. It happens.

But that doesn’t mean carte blanche for mass murder, and various other atrocities. But of course, you cheer for the Serbian Rapists during that vicious war in the 90’s. There is a middle ground. I don’t like the Muslim Brotherhood either, the Copts were horrifically mistreated during Mubarak’s era. They never got any sort of help against persecution from them.

And again, all you are is a Eastern Orthodox-aligned, authoritarian left wing asshole.

8 Gus  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 11:35:36am

re: #6 Destro

What part of “Just having some fun with the analogies” did you not get?

Yeah. OK, have at it.

9 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 11:40:16am

re: #5 Destro

Your only Pro-Palestian because of the fact you despise the Jews more again, straight from my theory about the Eastern Orthodox, considering the much higher level of Anti-Semitism in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

And your justifications for mass-rape for an event 40-50 years ago is evil. Especially considering the Bosnians in the SS were a tiny, tiny minority. Remember, they got persecuted by the Ustashe. But again, you think those “evil” Bosnians deserved it.

I admit my view of Serbia and its people has been permanently colored by what I have seen of the massive crimes in the 90’s. But I have much more of a leg to stand on than you.

You are a wretched, depraved failure of a human being.

10 Destro  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 11:47:55am

re: #7 ProBosniaLiberal

And sectarian wars are a normal fact of life. Look at the 30 years war, the Troubles in Northern Ireland, the Sunni-Shia wars, among other. It happens.

This is why the world hates America. How is you statement any different that the Rumsfledian “freedom is messy” bullshit? Especially when the USA adds fuel to these sect wars by backing one side over the other? Now if the USA tried to be neutral and not take a side and just worked to end fighting that is awesome but the USA does not do that - the USA needs a good guy vs a bad guy like some cartoon wrestling show to carry out a policy - or to sell it to her disengaged and rather ignorant population.

PS: I take pride in my old revolutionary battle scars from the streets of Europe. I have tasted American made tear gas the police thugs use and have grown to like it.

11 Destro  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 11:57:29am

re: #9 ProBosniaLiberal

The leader of the Bosnian Republic that broke away from Yugoslavia was a straight up ex member/supporter of the SS.

From the New York Times in case you think I am citing some BS source:

During World War II, when Bosnia became part of the puppet-Nazi state of the Croatian Ustashe, Mr. Izetbegovic joined the Young Muslims, a group torn between siding with the German-sponsored Handzar divisions organized by the German SS or with the Yugoslav Communist partisans led by Josip Broz Tito. Mr. Izetbegovic supported the Handzars.


If you were a Serb - whose people suffered under the Nazis in brutal Croatian and Bosnian Muslim run death camps (and reprisal killings) and you see a former supporter of the Nazi SS Handzars become the leader of this breakaway new state that you now find yourself living under (WW2 was not that long ago in the 1990s in the Balkans memory) would you not try and do all you could to not live under the potential rule of a SS sympathizer who also said he believed in Islamism over secular society?

And I see you don’t deny the Croatian re-introduction of Nazi era flags, symbols, money, and other thuggery - Serbs were to be made welcomed under the Croatian nazi revival state?

To paraphrase Chris Rock when he was talking about OJ Simpson, I don’t condone what the Serbs did, but I understand why.

I will support a Tito commie over some wannabe Neo-nazi any day. And your charge I hate Jews and I am an Orthodox Christian! Wow, my Jewish mother will be surprised.

12 KingKenrod  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:37:59pm

re: #5 Destro

Incorrect, I despise all religions.

Well, that’s certainly nuanced.

13 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:40:20pm

re: #11 Destro

Let me repeat this so your little mind will understand.

The bulk of the Bosnian People were persecuted by the Ustashe.

re: #10 Destro

And again, Sectarian Wars have happened throughout history. They will not stop anytime soon. Learn that fact. And I really am not impressed by the Tear Gas thing. Namely cause your type of “Revolutionary” rarely makes thing better. You are the kind of person you would commit purges against others.

And you hiding behind a Jewish Mother means nothing. All it means is that you are pulling the equivalent of the “I have a Black Friend” trope.

Go to hell.

14 Destro  Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:10:38pm

The bulk of the Bosnian People were persecuted by the Ustashe.

So why did the USA back the Croatian regime of Tudjman who rehabilitated Ustashe symbols?

Your little mind is not answering the question, I am not a Serb but if I was and I saw the same nazi era symbols being brought back by the breakaway Croatian nationalists who carried out genocide atrocities against the Serbs that sickened even the SS how would you think a Serb would react to the emerging Croatian nationalist state? And why should the USA not come down hard an all sides (which would have been fair and decent) but chose to back the Croatian nationalist neo-nazis.

Equally, it is perfectly understandable to me why Bosnian Serbs would see the emerging leadership of a SS Nazi supporting Islamist as a threat and would fight back. Yes, the Bosnian Muslims were not all Islamist or neo-nazi s just like all Germans were not nazis back in the day but they chose one as their leader.

You have yet to deny the leader of the Bosnian Muslim side was an SS backer and that the emerging nationalist Croatians were also Neo-Nazi backers back then.

Why is that?

Is it because it would humanize the Serbian claims? Somehow justify their resistance to the break up of their Yugoslav republic which tried to dampen sectarian hatreds through socialism (which worked very well).

European neo-Nazis fight on Croatian side
Der Spiegel 39/1992, 21.09.1992
Und morgen schon tot

Translated excerpts:

And tomorrow already dead
SPIEGEL editor Clemens Höges about neo-Nazis, adventurer and madmen in the Croatian army

Peacefully the swastika waves above Klek. The sun rises, from the requisitioned bar below at the dock quietly penetrates “Lili Marleen”, the favorite song of the unit Chicago in the Croatian version with the machine gun salvo at the beginning. A new street sign hangs on the confiscated Serb villa diagonally over the way: the centre of the bathing resort was named “Rudolf-Hess-Platz” by the squad. On the balcony of Chicago’s headquarters underpants flap on the rope, besides the German imperial war flag and the Croatian flag. In the shadow stands the battered and painted troop carrier with the peace sign on the door. This is thier “Peacemaker”, the soldiers tease.

Chicago, 32, returned exile Croat from the USA, winks in the sun and tilts his first water glass full of gin because he had nothing else for breakfast. “I am a Nazi”, he says, “I am not interested in politics.”

He wears black, only his gun belt is green. This should remain in such a way, as long as one more Serb stands in his country: “What they have done to us, we will never forget.” On radio the Serbs offered the equivalent of 100,000 DM for Chicago’s head.

Major Tomislav Madi, alias Chicago has three principles. First two he reveals: “We appear from behind.” And: “We have never made prisoners.”

The third principle: If needed he uses his squad of about 35 mostly youthful lunatics as cannon fodder. His raiding patrol laughingly attacks hostile positions like a herd of mine-detecting dogs, and if the young men go down, the real military knows where the Serbs sit. Disposable soldiers with more courage than skills.

Their commune of children between Split and Dubrovnik bristles with weapons. In each case in a group of four or five they live in formerly Serbian houses. On beds guns and magazines pile up, bandoleers hang on coat-hangers, grenades stand in shelves.

The front meanders about 15 kilometres inland through the jagged mountains. The Croatian guerrillas mostly operate in Bosnian area. They belong to the right wing HOS militia of the Croatian nationalist Dobroslav Paraga (see interview page 246) and at the same time to the regular Croatian army since some weeks.

Since one year the group Chicago fights, eight were killed up to now and twelve were injured. However, no survivor thinks that he could be hit. They are all immortal, until the next raiding patrol. As with other units the rows are willingly replenished with neo-Nazis from all countries.

Nicolas, a French-German from Berlin, was caught by a bullet from a distance of five metres when Chicago let his boys attack an artillery position in a Bosnian village. Now neo-Nazi Nicolas lies in the hospital of Zagreb.

As usual Nicolas filmed the attack with his small Sony video camera, which he usually strapped on the front of the Kalashnikov. Ducked they crept to the little wall. Movielike Nicolas crossed over as first. That was what the Chetnik had waited for in the house. He pulled the trigger once shortly.

Nicolas immediately regained consciousness and noted that the “arm hung flabby around like a sausage” and blood spurted from the bullet hole. Then also Christof jumped over the wall already. He wanted to save the video camera. In the meantime the Chetnik had changed the lever of his assault rifle to full automatic. Nicolas saw “like the chain of impacts headed to Christof’s leg.”

Seriously injured both figures from a shooting gallery could bring themselves in cover, however the Serbs have the video camera and the cassette.

Only two of the followers of Küssel risked it. The first one, Thomas Hainke from Bielefeld, 24, has “conquered” some “Chetnik positions” near Osijek. Most time, however, he crouched in the cellars above which the houses were just shot away.

There the neo-Nazi learnt that he is “no Rambo type” that the Croats like the Germans, “above all Hitler and Genscher”, and that “in Croatia it is about the whole white race, Aryans against subhumans”, even if the Serbs are just as white as the Croats. Then Hainke went back to Germany.

The Croats carry swastikas, SS runes and other Nazi junk primarily to impress the girls and to annoy the Serbs. The hit is a T-shirt which shows Hitler as a popstar. Above the portrait stands “European Tour”, under it “1939 - 45” and on the back the tour stations like “Stalingrad” and “Tobruk”.

For money they did not come; the pay in the HOS militia is about 130 DM in a month. Neo-Nazi Jaffa was drawn to Croatia because he thinks the HOS leader Paraga is the “reincarnation of Hitler”: “Croatia could become the first national socialist country after Germany.”

15 Destro  Fri, Feb 22, 2013 7:13:16am

re: #12 KingKenrod

I just find it funny that he got it all wrong in my regards, he thought I was some eastern European Christian or some such. And then he claims sect wars happen so it’s no biggie the USA gets involved in wars overseas that stir things up like sectarian wars.

It shows how Americans like him are ignorant as fuck and should not be trusted to have an opinion about parts of the world they know nothing about yet are eager to bomb and fucking start wars for “the freedoms.” This is the reason Americans are hated overseas for.

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 Frank says:

They're serving burgers in the back!