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22 comments

1 SteveMcGazi  Wed, Mar 13, 2013 9:54:04pm

When I was doing the tags, I click “suggest tags” and I couldn’t resist the “Father Handjob” tag.

2 SteveMcGazi  Wed, Mar 13, 2013 9:59:11pm

I also neglected to add that the reason that homosexuals could not marry was because their sex could not lead to procreation. It’s not a matter of the church “getting with the times”, rather, it’s would really require a complete overhaul of the church’s view of the very nature of sex.

3 aagcobb  Thu, Mar 14, 2013 11:10:58am

No-one wants to make the Catholic Church update their medieval view of sex that even their own parishoners reject, or force them to conduct gay marriages. All we want is for them to mind their own damn business and quit trying to use the state to force non-catholics to live by their rules.

4 KiTA  Thu, Mar 14, 2013 12:35:54pm

I have no problems with what a bunch of Bronze Age cultists want to do with themselves either.

The problem is, they use their political and cultural clout to force their beliefs on everyone else.

The Christians, and surely not the Catholics, did not invent the concept of marriage, so they should have no say in who gets to marry whom. I definitely don’t want to see people taking sex advice from a bunch of — in theory — celibate virgins, either.

But the disgusting reality is that for a lot of cultures, including the United States, they do get that say.

5 Skip Intro  Thu, Mar 14, 2013 4:14:18pm

I’d be happy if they’d finally got rid of their insane opposition to all forms of birth control.

6 SteveMcGazi  Thu, Mar 14, 2013 5:34:17pm

It’s always been a surprise to me how the church’s leaders don’t understand their own doctrine. That priest’s explanation of the church’s doctrine about sex could not have been more clear. I would even suspect that if priests were allowed to marry, much of the stridence against some forms of contraception would fade. I wouldn’t think there was much the church would change about abortion, however, and some forms of birth control function in a way that effectively kills an embryo.

7 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 14, 2013 7:45:58pm
I’m ok with its doctrine on sex and marriage. After all, your faith is your choice.

This is incredibly simplistic though, because people are also raised in faiths that they never chose. When those people are gay they’re presented with a real, psychically damaging assessment of who they are. Homosexual acts, unlike premarital sex are considered an abomination, an entirely elevated level of sin, and as John Paul II so helpfully clarified, “It is clear that penitents living in a habitual state of serious sin and who do not intend to change their situation cannot validly receive absolution.” So gays raised in the faith are basically bombarded with the notion that unless they can somehow stop being who they are, and genuinely intend to never again act on the biological urges they were born with, they cannot be forgiven and are thus condemned to hell. This is in addition to the stress and damage they incur from their family and society over the doctrine.

Contrast this to heterosexuals who’ve engaged in premarital sex, they always have an out, they can simply get married. They don’t even have to get married to the person they slept with before marriage. They are allowed to experiment and then eventually later form a permanent loving bond that is officially sanctioned.

In short, even without any attempts to legislate it, the teaching is in no way victimless. The people who perpetuate the doctrine, or “belief,” usually never really choose to either, in as much as the faith has been passed down generation after generation through centuries of what is essentially brainwashing. It harms not only gays, terribly, but their friends and families, destroying an untold number of relationships, individual lives and egos.

The doctrine is, in and of itself, abjectly evil.

8 EPR-radar  Thu, Mar 14, 2013 7:57:12pm

re: #7 goddamnedfrank

Vast misery worldwide can properly be attributed to overpopulation exacerbated by Catholic opposition to contraception.

Doctrines have consequences, and I view the Catholic position on contraception as intrinsically evil in view of its consequences.

9 kmg  Thu, Mar 14, 2013 8:10:37pm

re: #5 Skip Intro

They’re okay with the rhythm method.

10 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Mar 14, 2013 9:26:51pm

I notice a pattern here.

Namely, why is it that so many of the Christian Schisms have this thing of “Reproductive Sex only.”

Cause it seems odd considering it two closest related religions don’t have that hang-up at all. Well at least in theory, in regard to Islam.

11 EPR-radar  Thu, Mar 14, 2013 9:29:58pm

re: #10 ProBosniaLiberal

I notice a pattern here.

Namely, why is it that so many of the Christian Schisms have this thing of “Reproductive Sex only.”

Cause it seems odd considering it two closest related religions don’t have that hang-up at all. Well at least in theory, in regard to Islam.

I think you means “sects” here rather than “schisms”. And actually, opposition to contraception is pretty much a Catholic thing. I’m not aware of any other major Christian denomination that goes that far.

12 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 15, 2013 7:47:55am

couldn’t disagree with you more, but I think it’s very cool that you made a page giving us your opinion and I think you did a good job of it. upding. I hope more people consider doing the same.

13 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 15, 2013 7:48:48am

re: #7 goddamnedfrank

Great comment!

14 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 15, 2013 7:50:06am

re: #6 SteveMcGazi

and some forms of birth control function in a way that effectively kills an embryo.

This isn’t true.

15 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Mar 15, 2013 12:44:58pm

re: 14 Why I Never!

I think some kept an embryo from implanting. I’m in a rush right now so I don’t have time to look them up, but that is my recollection.

And BTW, why not?

16 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Mar 15, 2013 12:59:20pm

re: 7, goddamned frank

I have been thinking about your post. I think what happens is a deviation between the doctrine itself and those that are bashing teh gay.
Theologically, this can really get into a long debate, but I argue that the most important thing that Jesus ever did was not to die for our sins, (and I still don’t understand what that means) but to deeliver the Beatitudes. The Old Testament is riddled with contradictions, and you could argue that just abiding by the Ten Commandments might keep you out of hell (so to speak) but it wouldn’t necessarily bring you closer to God. The Beatitudes, however, are a much better guide to living a Christian faith, and I would argue that just about everybody would kind of agree that they are pretty universal.
The way I would sum it up what I believe Jesus Christ’s message would be: Look, I know that for the last couple of thousand years people have been recording all kinds of things that my Father has tried to tell you. Man is fallible, and no offense, but I think there are some, let me say inacurracies therein. But, if you can live up to these Beatitudes, I think we can all get along just fine. The Beatitudes are the optimum that Christians should strive for. They are a lot harder to live up to than the Ten Commandments, that’s for sure. And let’s face it, it would be easy to bash gay people, and all kinds of people that you don’t understand. Usually people only stop doing it when they mature. But that’s part of the difference between abiding by the Ten Commandments and living up to the Beatitudes.

17 SteveMcGazi  Fri, Mar 15, 2013 1:21:32pm

Posted too quickly! Anyway, I don’t think the doctrine is evil, and you didn’t really make that case in your argument. I am no gung ho Catholic, but I do think the church gets a bad rap for the spread of disease. John Paul II’s statement is not directly solely at homosexuals. It applies to anybody who thinks they can keep committing the same sinful acts. Absolution does require an effort to stop sinning, no matter what the sin is. (This is also the point where the whole definition of sex issue comes in - that the Church just can’t say that gay people can marry without first completely redefining its vision of the very nature of sexuality) You do not need the pope’s or anybody’s permission to live in God’s grace. While plenty of religious people have scorn for “Cafeteria Catholics”, the fact is most Catholics accept that not everybody goes to mass every Sunday, not everybody saves themselves for marriage, and gay people aren’t going to hell.
Finally (:)) just because people are raised in faiths they do not choose, they can still choose how they want to practice their faith when they mature. I see it all the time here. Most Catholics I know have an eighth grade level of understanding of their own church. I think you are confusing faith and culture, where there is a particular taboo against something that is not necessarily enshrined in a Church’s teachings.

18 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 5:40:04am

re: #11 EPR-radar

I don’t quite think so. Look at Protestant organization Focus on the Family, and I have noticed the same out of the Evangelical wing of the church.

19 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sat, Mar 16, 2013 7:37:33am

re: #17 SteveMcGazi

If a child grows up in a Catholic household, and they are gay, they will be taught that their desires are sinful and that there is no possible way they can ever satisfy those sexual desires and have it be right by god.

That is a shitty thing to teach a child.

20 SteveMcGazi  Sun, Mar 17, 2013 2:14:11pm

re: 19 Glenn Beck’s …

Most children that grow up in any household have been taught by their parents, their peers and their role models that homosexuality is wrong. In my experience the people who accept gay people do so when they reach adulthood, when they discover that gay people really aren’t evil. I think you should know better than to blame such bigotry on Catholic households when it is such a prevalent condition.

You rail against the ignorance of the CHurch while projecting your own upon it. I’m not sure if you even read my post. Homosexuality is no different than pre- or extra-marital sex. Whether the people who practice the faith can’t understand that is a different issue. Sure, it’s easy for a pope (or just about any so-called holy roller) to say shitty things about gay people, but if you put a bunch of horny teenagers or middle aged swingers in front of him I think you would get a pretty similar speech.

21 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 5:23:13am

It’s dogma itself that’s evil. The world would be better off without the nightmare of religious belief.

22 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Mar 18, 2013 5:47:09am

re: #20 SteveMcGazi

re: 19 Glenn Beck’s …

Most children that grow up in any household have been taught by their parents, their peers and their role models that homosexuality is wrong.

Most? I dunno about that. And there are plenty of positive gay role models around. Maybe this was true twenty years ago— it’s not now.

In my experience the people who accept gay people do so when they reach adulthood, when they discover that gay people really aren’t evil. I think you should know better than to blame such bigotry on Catholic households when it is such a prevalent condition.

No, kids these days mostly grow up accepting gay people because more gay people are out, and a lot of parents don’t teach bigotry and hatred. You are just wrong about this.

I blame bigotry against gay people on those who spread bigotry against gay people. Those include people who adhere to the teachings of the Catholic church and tell their kids that gay people can never express themselves sexually without it being sinful.

You rail against the ignorance of the Church while projecting your own upon it. I’m not sure if you even read my post. Homosexuality is no different than pre- or extra-marital sex.

Oh, I read it. Since the church also opposes gay marriage, this point doesn’t really work. There is no way, under Catholicism, for gay people to have a sex life, marry, or raise children.

Sure, it’s easy for a pope (or just about any so-called holy roller) to say shitty things about gay people, but if you put a bunch of horny teenagers or middle aged swingers in front of him I think you would get a pretty similar speech.

Yes, it is also true that the Church acts terribly by making teenagers feel bad about sex in general.


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