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1 hellosnackbar  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:39:34am

Not as simple as previously thought?
The illogicality of sky fairies ,Djinns and trust in proseletysing mountebanks ;surely demonstrates the naivety of believers ,
which logically shows a lack of reason!
Lack of reason shows lack of deduction!

2 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 4:09:32am

I’m doubtful about that.

First, what is the definition of intelligence that the study used? Intelligence is a rather slippery subject that we humans really don’t understand yet.

Second, in my opinion religious belief and atheism are two sides of the same coin. That of faith. One side says there is a God, Allah to Zeus, take your pick. The other says there isn’t. Neither belief is demonstrable or provable in a scientific manner.

So, I’m doubtful about this study. I’ve known many believers who are at least as smart as I am, and just as many atheists.

3 John Vreeland  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 5:42:47am

I’ve encountered a few people who were raised atheist and seem a bit dopey. But for most people—especially Americans—becoming an atheist requires a lot of thinking.

4 jc717  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 7:03:42am

re: #2 Romantic Heretic

I’m doubtful about that.
Second, in my opinion religious belief and atheism are two sides of the same coin. That of faith. One side says there is a God, Allah to Zeus, take your pick. The other says there isn’t. Neither belief is demonstrable or provable in a scientific manner.

I agree with your other points, but I have to take issue with this view. I’ve seen this line of argument before, and it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. I’m not only an atheist regarding god, but also regarding unicorns, dragons (not the komodo variety), and the invisible pink elephant that some may believe resides in my room. It comes down to accepting a naturalistic universe or not. There is as much evidence for god as there is for the invisible pink elephant, so why believe or even give any serious consideration to either unless some evidence does show up?

I will add that our default mode of operation is to use our intelligence to rationalize decisions made emotionally. Highly intelligent people are usually just better at rationalizing, and thus being highly intelligent doesn’t make one immune to believing in non-sense.

5 Jayleia  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 8:46:49am

Argh. I hate this kind of story now.

I’ve been running into a group of atheists on YouTube that are as stupid as the worst religious types, that have been claiming that religion is mental illness, full stop, and should be treated as though they are raving loons (no security clearance, no voting etc). And they latch onto EXACTLY this type of story as evidence prove that they are smarter, more rational etc.

It almost makes me want to become a Talibangelical so I won’t be associated with those morons.

6 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 8:59:27am

re: #4 jc717

I agree with your other points, but I have to take issue with this view. I’ve seen this line of argument before, and it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. I’m not only an atheist regarding god, but also regarding unicorns, dragons (not the komodo variety), and the invisible pink elephant that some may believe resides in my room. It comes down to accepting a naturalistic universe or not. There is as much evidence for god as there is for the invisible pink elephant, so why believe or even give any serious consideration to either unless some evidence does show up?

There is also no evidence against any of those things. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

7 jc717  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 9:06:30am

re: #6 Romantic Heretic

There is also no evidence against any of those things. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

There is no evidence against an infinite number of absurd imaginary things, so why worry about any of them until some evidence for them shows up?
I can’t prove that something doesn’t exist. The burden of proof has to be on those making the positive claim.

8 Jayleia  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 9:30:19am

There is no good evidence for any supernatural entities posited by religions. And then there’s the annoying type of atheism is the type that asserts that there is no god, period, and is at least as dependent on belief as any religion.

Agnosticism or normal atheism only puts forward a default position of an unproven supernatural power.

9 Carlos Danger  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 10:11:20am

Whatever. I dare one of you to call Vicious Babushka stupid to her face. I don’t think it’d work out too well.

10 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 10:18:39am

This study of previous studies found that in 53 of 63 studies, there was a negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity. Nothing about causation. All remarks about causation are speculations, not conclusions. The name of the study is: ‘The Relation Between Intelligence and Religiosity: A Meta-Analysis and Some Proposed Explanations’. Those ‘proposed explanations’ are also known as ‘guesses’.

I can come up with reasonable guesses about why the correlations were found that have nothing to do with intelligence. I can’t do a great job of it, because I don’t want to pay $25 for the original study.

Anyone who feels superior because they believe their atheism is part of their smartness may not be as smart as they think.

For the record, I am an atheist who does well on intelligence tests. I also know several brilliant religious people. Those bits are anecdotes, not data.

11 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 11:40:23am

If you replaced “religious” with black, Islamic, Jewish, Catholic, oriental, hispanic, would you feel comfortable posting this?

12 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 11:55:24am

Religious is closely tied to socio-economic conditions, which are obviously cofounders.

IQ is a shitty metric at all times.

13 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:04:54pm

re: #5 Jayleia

Argh. I hate this kind of story now.

I’ve been running into a group of atheists on YouTube that are as stupid as the worst religious types, that have been claiming that religion is mental illness, full stop, and should be treated as though they are raving loons (no security clearance, no voting etc). And they latch onto EXACTLY this type of story as evidence prove that they are smarter, more rational etc.

It almost makes me want to become a Talibangelical so I won’t be associated with those morons.

That begets you a Captain Sensible badge! Hooray! Saw a couple opf atheist who were douchebags on the internet; joined the Talibangengeligals! Whee I’m Sensible; ARE YOU?

14 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:09:31pm

Iceweasel feels bad that I’ve done a bitchslap on a new member - which is out of order - and on reflection she’s quite right.
sorry dude (bro’s) :)

15 Locker  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:19:27pm

Well the main point of the article, as I took it, was the fact that more intelligent people have better jobs, more money, are more likely to be happily married and thus, have less need for religion.

Didn’t see anyone mention that at all so I wanted to drop it in the mix.

16 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:20:28pm

Why don’t we limit our probabilistic statements to the confines of the observable?

“I don’t think there’s a supernatural—I’d bet my soul on it.”

17 iceweasel  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:21:46pm

re: #16 Decatur Deb

Why don’t we limit our probabilistic statements to the confines of the observable?

“I don’t think there’s a supernatural—I’d bet my soul on it.”

Therefore unicorns! Yippee!

18 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:24:21pm

re: #17 iceweasel

Therefore unicorns! Yippee!

If unicorns are useful to the advancement of the species (and they were) why not?

Image: OldUnicorn3.jpg

19 iceweasel  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:26:02pm

re: #17 iceweasel

Btw that was me (jimmah).

(Not that ice doesn’t totally endorse what I said ‘n’ stuff….)

20 iceweasel  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:28:46pm

re: #18 Decatur Deb

If unicorns are useful to the advancement of the species (and they were) why not?

Image: OldUnicorn3.jpg

Because THEY DIDN’T FUCKING EXIST!?

Is it rude to actually say THAT?

21 iceweasel  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:31:35pm

re: #18 Decatur Deb

They’re being pretty shitty toward that Unicorn btw.

22 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:36:52pm

re: #20 iceweasel

Because THEY DIDN’T FUCKING EXIST!?

Is it rude to actually say THAT?

They existed enough to provide temporary answers to nagging questions and to enhance the miserable lives of the believers.

What I’m saying is that the existence of any kind of god is consequential only to the individual, while the existence of religion is an obvious cultural piledriver. For that reason it must be engaged usefully, respectfully, and in a way that leads to the greatest long-term good.

23 iceweasel  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:38:49pm

UPDATE: Iceweasel has just blown my mind with a discussion of the Unicorn as archetypal virgin.

Taking a few off to absorb.

24 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:42:45pm

re: #23 iceweasel

UPDATE: Iceweasel has just blown my mind with a discussion of the Unicorn as archetypal virgin.

Taking a few off to absorb.

Alternately the protector of virgins. Perhaps they should be rehired.

25 iceweasel  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 12:50:33pm

re: #24 Decatur Deb

Image: OldUnicorn3.jpg

and now check this out:

Image: 090709-sperm-egg-02.jpg

I rest my case (ice advises that I should point out that I’m Jimmah)

26 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:00:14pm

re: #25 iceweasel

Image: OldUnicorn3.jpg

and now check this out:

Image: 090709-sperm-egg-02.jpg

I rest my case (ice advises that I should point out that I’m Jimmah)

Jung before my time.

Image: The_Lady_and_the_unicorn_Sight.jpg

27 iceweasel  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:06:45pm

re: #15 Locker

Well the main point of the article, as I took it, was the fact that more intelligent people have better jobs, more money, are more likely to be happily married and thus, have less need for religion.

Didn’t see anyone mention that at all so I wanted to drop it in the mix.

You are totally right locker. I’ve read that people whose wellbeing depends on chance factors (e.g. fishermen, farmers etc) are much more prone to religious beliefs than people who have more of a sense of control over their own destiny.

28 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:11:04pm

re: #27 iceweasel

You are totally right locker. I’ve read that people whose wellbeing depends on chance factors (e.g. fishermen, farmers etc) are much more prone to religious beliefs than people who have more of a sense of control over their own destiny.

Soldiers, children, most of the world’s women. Just about everybody, then. Which is why religion is near-universal in the cultural inventory and it’s not going away. Best we learn to optimize it.

29 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:25:18pm

re: #27 iceweasel

You are totally right locker. I’ve read that people whose wellbeing depends on chance factors (e.g. fishermen, farmers etc) are much more prone to religious beliefs than people who have more of a sense of control over their own destiny.

I think education gives satisfaction to the craving for wonder in religion, too. When you learn some really sweet physics or some ancient civilization or how evolution works, when it really comes alive for you, it’s deeply satisfying. I think that that’s part of it, since I thin that humans have an innate drive towards religiosity.

30 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:34:15pm

re: #28 Decatur Deb

Soldiers, children, most of the world’s women. Just about everybody, then. Which is why religion is near-universal in the cultural inventory and it’s not going away. Best we learn to optimize it.

Stats show it’s going away fast - faster than most would have predicted.

Let’s ‘optimise’ it by flushing it down the lavvy pan.

31 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:35:28pm

re: #30 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles

Stats show it’s going away fast - faster than most would have predicted.

Let’s ‘optimise’ it by flushing it down the lavvy pan.

Western world, as long as the oil lasts and the creeks don’t rise.

32 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:35:57pm

re: #30 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles

You need to at least have a plan if it turns out you’re wrong and that’s not actually possible. And also a plan for dealing with religious people in the short-term.

33 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:40:03pm

re: #31 Decatur Deb

Western world, as long as the oil lasts and the creeks don’t rise.

Religion on the other hand looks towards the flourishing of poverty and ignorance.

Let’s hope we all live long and prosper :)

Youtube Video

34 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 1:44:12pm

re: #33 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles

Religion on the other hand looks towards the flourishing of poverty and ignorance.

Let’s hope we all live long and prosper :)

[Embedded content]

It is quite amenable to corruption taming.

cf. Middle Ages.

35 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:32:40pm

re: #32 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

You need to at least have a plan if it turns out you’re wrong and that’s not actually possible. And also a plan for dealing with religious people in the short-term.

Firstly I’m impressed that no-one needed an explanation of “lavvy pan”.

Second, I totally agree.

36 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:33:39pm

re: #35 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles

Firstly I’m impressed that no-one needed an explanation of “lavvy pan”.

Second, I totally agree.

Just assumed it was some heathen Scottish dinnerware.

37 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Aug 13, 2013 2:35:43pm

re: #36 Decatur Deb

Just assumed it was some heathen Scottish dinnerware.

They say that on the east coast (down Edinburgh way) it serves a ‘dual function’.


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