India Snubs U.S. Delegation, Withdraws Security Over Diplomat's Arrest

India Snubs U.S. Delegation, Withdraws Security Over Diplomat’s Arrest

Shame on us

Law • December 2013 • Views: 4,643

This one should be harder to ignore than your average traveler… If drugs or contrband was found I can see the strip search. But a paperwork issue? WTF?

NEW DELHI — India reacted Tuesday to the arrest of one of its diplomats in New York last week by snubbing a U.S. Congressional delegation, removing security from outside the U.S. Embassy and threatening to treat U.S. diplomats the same way it says its envoys were treated by America.

The issue has become a major story, with India’s often-breathless media calling the situation a “full blown diplomatic war,” while National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon was quoted describing the U.S. action as “barbaric” and “despicable.”

The incident was sparked off when Devyani Khobragade, India’s deputy consul general, was arrested last week by New York police on charges of visa fraud. Indian media reports say she was handcuffed, strip-searched at a New York police station and put in a lockup with common criminals and drug addicts.

A State Department spokeswoman in Washington said Monday that standard procedures were followed in Khobragade’s arrest. The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi had no immediate comment.

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67 comments

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 7:00:02am

GGT has a page on this well, but I think her write-up was better. As for the strip search, even though the US Marshals arrested the suspect the lockup was run by the NYPD and strip searches are SOP for NYPD lockups. This is to prevent someone from retaining a weapon or drugs. Exceptions are not made for white-collar criminals.

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 8:04:38am

I am really trying to figure out how the hell they violated her diplomatic immunity that way. This is going to result in Americans ending up in jail over in India, and they are actively looking to retaliate.

When you find a foreign diplomat doing something wrong, you kick them out.

Randall Gross Wed, Dec 18, 2013 8:28:13am

re: #2 Aunty Entity Dragon

Typically you arrest them first, then you kick them out if their immunity prevents prosecution. You are only hearing the Indian diplomat’s side of the story so far which has waxed highly hyperbolic in the Indian press ( I sincerely doubt that “cavity searches” were done beyond the usual “open your mouth wide, lift your tongue” visual inspection.) I don’t think you should let crimes against other human beings go, regardless of diplomatic status. If they are underpaying the help, and lied on their VISA, time to revoke it or prosecute, whichever our laws permit.

jc717 Wed, Dec 18, 2013 8:33:49am

Did she actually have diplomatic immunity? Not everyone associated or employed by a foreign mission does.

Randall Gross Wed, Dec 18, 2013 8:37:37am

re: #4 jc717

No, she does not except in a limited manner. She’s a “consular official” not a diplomat.
en.wikipedia.org
see the chart for the US at the bottom - the headlines using the term “Diplomat” are hyperbolic, including this one.

The War TARDIS Wed, Dec 18, 2013 8:45:10am

re: #5 Randall Gross

Still, the US fucked up spectactulary with this one.

We owe India an apology. And a thorough investigation into the NYPD and it’s practices. Between this, the constant spying on Mosques in the NYC Metro, and Stop & Frisk, they have a big problem.

Randall Gross Wed, Dec 18, 2013 8:48:21am

re: #6 The War TARDIS

I’m going to ask where everyone saying this is awful was when the Saudi incident similar to this one occurred a couple years back. I don’t recall people castigating the US then, so what’s the difference?

We arrested a consular official for lying on a visa and holding someone in the country in illegal wage slavery, it’s permitted by Geneva conventions and US practice, I don’t have a beef with it.

Political Atheist Wed, Dec 18, 2013 9:28:36am

Let me point out I made no protest at the arrest. None at all. my point is whether a strip search was within a reasonable policy, like suspicion of drugs or evidence hidden in the body

Randall Gross Wed, Dec 18, 2013 9:41:58am

re: #8 Political Atheist

If you arrest someone to put them in a holding cell with other inmates it’s policy at most metro police stations to search very thoroughly. I don’t know if they all strip search.

Political Atheist Wed, Dec 18, 2013 9:47:47am

re: #9 Randall Gross

A strip search, via official policy as far as I have been able to find is limited. Limited as I described earlier, NYPD has a really long history of abusing this. Sometimes it takes a prominent case to daylight something like that.

jvic Wed, Dec 18, 2013 10:39:45am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

GGT has a page on this well, but I think her write-up was better.

I couldn’t find ggt’s page on this. Could you link, please? Meanwhile, here’s mine.

As for the strip search, even though the US Marshals arrested the suspect the lockup was run by the NYPD and strip searches are SOP for NYPD lockups. This is to prevent someone from retaining a weapon or drugs. Exceptions are not made for white-collar criminals.

Law enforcement has discretion. As I suggest in my page, the question is why discretion was not used for this diplomatic representative of a major friendly power.

re: #7 Randall Gross

I’m going to ask where everyone saying this is awful was when the Saudi incident similar to this one occurred a couple years back. I don’t recall people castigating the US then, so what’s the difference?

The Saudi woman, a member of the very large royal family, was apparently here on a tourist visa, not as a diplomat.

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 12:22:49pm

Time Line

June 23: The maid goes absconding. The next day Khobragade reports the matter to Office of Foreign Missions (OFM) which asks her to report to the police. NYPD though refuses to entertain her, saying only a family member can file missing person complaint. The maid’s husband refuses to cooperate.

July 1: The diplomat gets a call from an unidentified woman who says the maid won’t move court if her employment is terminated and she is compensated for 19 hours of work per day.

July 2: Khobragade informs in writing to both OFM and NYPD about the call.

July 5: She registers a complaint of harassment, extortion and blackmailing with NYPD which does nothing. Also files a complaint against the maid and her Delhi-based husband with Delhi Police. The same day Indian summons US embassy officials here.

July 8: Khobragade, who had also filed a complaint of theft against the maid, is called to an immigration lawyer’s office where she is asked by the maid to shell out $10,000, convert her official passport into an ordinary one and help with her visa which would allow her to live in the US. Angered by these tactics, India revokes her passport. She was now living illegally in the US.

July 30: Consul general of India (CGI) writes to OFM again saying that the maid, who according to a petition by her husband in a Delhi court was in NYPD custody, be produced in the Consulate but no action will be taken.

September 4: State department steps in, writes to the Indian ambassador saying the matter was of “considerable concern” for the US.

September 21: The embassy replies, saying this was none of US’ business and that the maid was seeking a monetary settlement and US visa, whereby subverting both Indian and US laws.

September 20: Delhi HC passes an interim injunction restraining the maid and her husband from filing for any action against Khobragade in any foreign court.

November 19: A Delhi court issues a non-bailable warrant against the maid.

December 6: The warrant is forwarded to the US embassy with an official request to arrest the woman and facilitate her repatriation but this is ignored.

December 10: The maid’s husband and children fly off to New York after they are given visa confirming India’s suspicion that the maid was acting to get herself a “trafficked person” status.

_ Times of India
abcnews.go.com

RadicalModerate Wed, Dec 18, 2013 1:39:50pm

re: #12 Aunty Entity Dragon

Time Line
September 4: State department steps in, writes to the Indian ambassador saying the matter was of “considerable concern” for the US.

September 21: The embassy replies, saying this was none of US’ business and that the maid was seeking a monetary settlement and US visa, whereby subverting both Indian and US laws.

What sympathy I might have had for the India consulate here went right out the window with this. A foreign national with a revoked passport on US soil is VERY MUCH the business of the United States.

goddamnedfrank Wed, Dec 18, 2013 1:58:20pm

This is all about caste and privilege. Fuck India.

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 2:07:42pm

re: #13 RadicalModerate

What sympathy I might have had for the India consulate here went right out the window with this. A foreign national with a revoked passport on US soil is VERY MUCH the business of the United States.

So why did we refuse to honor the warrant for arrest produced by India? The maid looks like a grifting little thief.

Now, I can almost guarantee that US citizens are going to find out…in very short order…what it is like to be in an Indian jail cell, since India is already fishing through tax and income documents. Something will be found, and the wife of a US consulate official will be handcuffed and humiliated in public to teach us that they can play that game as well.

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 2:11:23pm

re: #14 goddamnedfrank

This is all about caste and privilege. Fuck India.

What about our own class and racial privilege? How often have we heard about US Secret Service agents violating laws in Honduras and elsewhere? How many consular employees and their family members get a warning and nothing else when they slip up?

That has changed…for the worse…in India. They will absolutely not look the other way now, and US citizens are going to be hurt and jailed to save face for India.

goddamnedfrank Wed, Dec 18, 2013 2:24:39pm

re: #16 Aunty Entity Dragon

What about our own class and racial privilege? How often have we heard about US Secret Service agents violating laws in Honduras and elsewhere? How many consular employees and their family members get a warning and nothing else when they slip up?

That has changed…for the worse…in India. They will absolutely not look the other way now, and US citizens are going to be hurt and jailed to save face for India.

Tu Quoque is a logical fallacy, not an argument, and as I recall the Secret Service incident you’re talking about took place in Columbia, where prostitution is legal, not Honduras. And those Secret Service agents lost their jobs. Also we didn’t threaten anybody’s embassy officials safety here in order to strong arm their prosecutors at home. Fact is her limited consular privilege doesn’t cover lying on visa forms and keeping a wage slave in violation of US law. The only reason the Indian government gives a shit about this is because she comes from the right kind of family.

And it’s really goddamned disgusting to equate human trafficking and exploitation, which I’m sorry is exactly what this fucking is, with a “slip up.”

goddamnedfrank Wed, Dec 18, 2013 2:26:51pm

If they want to play games, fine. Cut the number of H1B visas in half, immediately.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 2:31:54pm

re: #11 jvic

I couldn’t find ggt’s page on this. Could you link, please? Meanwhile, here’s mine.

Law enforcement has discretion. As I suggest in my page, the question is why discretion was not used for this diplomatic representative of a major friendly power.

The Saudi woman, a member of the very large royal family, was apparently here on a tourist visa, not as a diplomat.

It was your Page, not GGT’s. Please excuse the error.

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 2:41:28pm

re: #17 goddamnedfrank

Tu Quoque is a logical fallacy, not an argument, and as I recall the Secret Service incident you’re talking about took place in Columbia, where prostitution is legal, not Honduras. And those Secret Service agents lost their jobs

I am not making an argument. I point out the way things are (and the Secret Service parties were all over the world, btw…and none of them were prosecuted in those countries)

Fact is her limited consular privilege doesn’t cover lying on visa forms and keeping a wage slave in violation of US law.

Wage slave? What the hell is that? So the diplomat isn’t covered but her maid can make extortion demands? If you want to start in on diplomatic immunity arguments, explain how the hell a private contractor in Pakistan can shoot people and we then claim he has immunity after the fact??? Oh, because we are the US and what we say goes?

The only reason the Indian government gives a shit about this is because she comes from the right kind of family.

Real, really, really wrong. She is a dalit…a scheduled caste. She is an untouchable!

The Indian press is going nuts over charges that the government reacted too slow because she is low caste.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 2:42:08pm

re: #18 goddamnedfrank

If they want to play games, fine. Cut the number of H1B visas in half, immediately.

Quite Concur. If India wants to have its diplomats and consular officials keep a close eye on this case, then we ought to give them all access required by treaty and due process. But we should not let this kind of domestic slavery case go simply to avoid Indian retaliation. That would be cowardly and a other nations would see it as the sign weakness it would be.

As I said on Jvic’s thread, we must stay the course. America’s sins in the matter of slavery were grevious and open slavery was ended here at dire price. But having sinned and then made amends, the United States is in mind obligated to oppose involuntary servitude when we are able to do so. Surely that means punishing it when it occurs within our borders. In that light I would say that the Department of Justice and the New York Police Department simply did their duty.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 3:16:34pm

Crossposted on Jvic’s Page:

Update per CNN. The NYPD was not involved in Ms. Khobragade’s arrest or detention. It was entirely a US Marshals show.

kirkspencer Wed, Dec 18, 2013 3:23:49pm

Strip searches are not ‘policy’ in the New York Patrol Guide. See 208-05 (C)

PATROL GUIDE PROCEDURE 208-05 — GENERAL SEARCH GUIDELINES FOR ARRESTED PERSONS
ARRESTING OFFICER
1. Comply with the provisions of P.G. 208-02, “Arrests-Removal To Department Facility For Processing”, P.G. 208-03, “Arrests-General Processing”, P.G. 208-15, “Arrest Report Preparation At Station house” and the following:
SEARCH OF ARRESTED PERSONS
To maximize security and minimize potential hazards to the arresting officer, the arrested person, and other Department personnel, the following guidelines are published for the information of all members of the service:
A. FRISK/FIELD SEARCH
A frisk, performed primarily to ensure the personal safety of the arresting officer, is a methodical external body examination of the arrested person conducted immediately after apprehension to find weapons, evidence, or contraband. The frisk should be conducted before or immediately after the subject is rear handcuffed, depending upon particular circumstances, temperament of the subject, and escape potential. A thorough external body examination is made by sliding the hand over the subject’s body, feeling for weapons or other objects, with special attention to the waistband, armpit, collar, and groin areas. In an unusual object is detected, the officer will reach into or under the clothing to remove it.
B. SEARCH AT POLICE FACILITY
(1) Upon arrival at precinct of arrest or other Department facility, the arresting officer or a designated member of the same sex as the prisoner, will conduct a thorough search of the subject’s person and clothing to ensure the safety of all persons within the facility and to remove weapons, contraband, and evidence not discovered by the frisk. Other items
lawfully carried but that are dangerous to life, may facilitate escape or may be used to damage Department property will also be removed from the subject.
(2) A search at a police facility (not a “strip” search) includes the removal of outer garments such as overcoats, jackets, sweaters, vests, hats, wigs, ties, belts, shoes and socks, handbags, and wallets. All pockets are to be emptied and all clothing not removed will be examined by grabbing, crushing and squeezing the garments and by sliding the hands across the body to detect articles that may be underneath or sewn to the clothing.
C. STRIP SEARCH
(1) The desk officer, precinct of arrest/borough Court Section supervisor will decide if a strip search should be conducted and he/she is responsible that the search is conducted properly. A strip search will be utilized when the arresting officer reasonably suspects that weapons, contraband or evidence may be concealed upon the person or in the clothing in such a manner that they may not be discovered by the previous search methods. Other factors that should be considered in determining the necessity for a strip search include the nature of the crime (serious violent felony), arrest circumstances, subject’s reputation (extremely violent person), acts of violence and discoveries from previous searches. In addition, contact borough Court Section supervisor and expedite appearances of prisoner and arresting/assigned officer with necessary details before the
arraignment judge.
NOTE In cases where there is a disagreement between the desk officer
and an arresting officer’s supervisor from an outside command, the final
decision whether or not to conduct the strip search will be made by the
desk officer concerned. If not in agreement with the desk officer’s
decision, the arresting officer’s supervisor may confer with the precinct
commander/duty captain.
(2) A strip search will be conducted by a member of the same sex as the arrested person in a secure area in utmost privacy and with no other arrestee present. It should not be necessary to touch the subject’s body, except for the examination of the hair. UNDER NO CONDITIONS SHALL A BODY CAVITY SEARCH BE CONDUCTED BY ANY MEMBER OF THE SERVICE. If a body cavity search is considered necessary, the desk officer will be advised and his instructions complied with.
(3) If a strip search is conducted, such information will be entered in the Command Log, arresting officer’s Activity Log, and also documented in the “Narrative” section of the ON LINE BOOKING SYSTEM ARREST WORKSHEET (PD244-159) or the ARREST REPORT SUPPLEMENT (PD244-157). A subsequent strip search will not be conducted unless there is reasonable belief that the subject has acquired a weapon or contraband.
(4) A strip search will not be conducted after a decision is made to void an arrest or to release the prisoner immediately upon issuance of a summons.
(5) ALL arrested persons being processed in a facility equipped with a metal detector are required to pass through the device. These electronic metal detectors are extremely sensitive and can detect a metallic object secreted in or around a body cavity. A “reading” on a detector, which cannot otherwise be accounted for, may form the basis for a full strip search.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 3:26:03pm

re: #23 kirkspencer

Strip searches are not ‘policy’ in the New York Patrol Guide. See 208-05 (C)

Good research, but it is a moot point since the NYPD was not involved in the matter.

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 3:29:10pm

Former Indian Foreign Minister Yashwant Sinha has raised eyebrows by suggesting that in response to Khobragade’s arrest, India should arrest same-sex partners of US diplomats in India in light of an Indian Supreme Court ruling last week criminalizing homosexuality.
“Diplomatic immunity works on the principle of reciprocity. If the US is going to assert local laws over diplomatic immunity, it can’t expect India to not do the same,” says retired Indian diplomat Jayant Prasad.

csmonitor.com

We need to shut this down now. In point of fact, there are GLBT US consular employees who are now in violation of Indian law and who can be targeted.

Expel the woman. Send her home and take a close look at the maid who has been charged with serious crimes in India herself.

India is one of the two major Asian powers that does not like China (Japan being the other)…and we need them as friends, not enemies.

goddamnedfrank Wed, Dec 18, 2013 3:42:29pm

Being a dalit doesn’t prevent one from having a very powerful and well connected family, as this woman has. Her uncle is a bigwig in the diplomatic service and previously held the post of Deputy Consul General in NY. Her father Uttam is Principal Secretary of the Tribal Secretary dept.

He has recently been featured in the special edition of India Today, a largest selling socio-political weekly in India, as “one of the 40 drivers of India’s growth machine”

re: #20 Aunty Entity Dragon

I am not making an argument. I point out the way things are (and the Secret Service parties were all over the world, btw…and none of them were prosecuted in those countries)

You certainly aren’t making an argument. You’re just whining incoherently about irrelevant non-specific nonsense.

Wage slave? What the hell is that?

You know goddamned well what it is. If the maid was brought here to work in a textile sweatshop you’d have no problem with the concept, but your intellectual blinders go up when there’s a chance to bash the US government for some perceived hypocrisy.

What’s really fucked up, this week the Indian Supreme Court gutted gay rights in that country, upholding a colonial era law that made gay sex a crime. Yet here you are, someone who’s entire life is protected by the admittedly imperfect but progressing laws of your first world home, talking shit and trying to find some kind of excuse for the attempted prosecution of a maid who’d been brought here to perform labor for substandard wages and who’s visa was being held hostage by her own third world corrupt government. The diplomat wouldn’t have been in a position to be extorted if she hadn’t broken the law in order to keep her maid in a state of abject subjugation.

The fact is that India is a hellhole with one of the worst income disparities on the planet and absolutely zero excuse for it. There’s no valid reason in the world for turning a blind eye to this kind of behavior.

re: #25 Aunty Entity Dragon

csmonitor.com

We need to shut this down now. In point of fact, there are GLBT US consular employees who are now in violation of Indian law and who can be targeted.

Expel the woman. Send her home and take a close look at the maid who has been charged with serious crimes in India herself.

India is one of the two major Asian powers that does not like China (Japan being the other)…and we need them as friends, not enemies.

India is a bully, bullying people exactly like you, and you’d cowtow to this kind of schoolyard bullshit out of some sense of chickenshit pragmatism.

Pathetic. There are real and obvious limits to the amount of pique the Indians can show over this, pinched between Pakistan and China as they are. They’ve massively overstepped their hand here and they should get slapped hard for their fucked up behavior and the kinds of ongoing class exploitation it attempts to condone.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 3:42:52pm

re: #25 Aunty Entity Dragon

csmonitor.com

We need to shut this down now. In point of fact, there are GLBT US consular employees who are now in violation of Indian law and who can be targeted.

Expel the woman. Send her home and take a close look at the maid who has been charged with serious crimes in India herself.

India is one of the two major Asian powers that does not like China (Japan being the other)…and we need them as friends, not enemies.

Again, I would say we can’t just roll over on a serious matter like this. She’s not in custody now, so I’d say the case should be investigated, to include a close look at the maid. But the charges should not be dropped at this juncture. But we should order any gay diplomatic and consular personnel to leave India at once.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 3:47:42pm

re: #26 goddamnedfrank

Being a dalit doesn’t prevent one from having a very powerful and well connected family, as this woman has. Her uncle is a bigwig in the diplomatic service and previously held the post of Deputy Consul General in NY. Her father Uttam is Principal Secretary of the Tribal Secretary dept.

You certainly aren’t making an argument. You’re just whining incoherently about irrelevant non-specific nonsense.

You know goddamned well what it is. If the maid was brought here to work in a textile sweatshop you’d have no problem with the concept, but your intellectual blinders go up when there’s a chance to bash the US government for some perceived hypocrisy.

What’s really fucked up, this week the Indian Supreme Court gutted gay rights in that country, upholding a colonial era law that made gay sex a crime. Yet here you are, someone who’s entire life is protected by the admittedly imperfect but progressing laws of your first world home, talking shit and trying to find some kind of excuse for the attempted prosecution of a maid who’d been brought here to perform labor for substandard wages and who’s visa was being held hostage by her own third world corrupt government. The diplomat wouldn’t have been in a position to be extorted if she hadn’t broken the law in order to keep her maid in a state of abject subjugation.

The fact is that India is a hellhole with one of the worst income disparities on the planet and absolutely zero excuse for it. There’s no valid reason in the world for turning a blind eye to this kind of behavior.

India is a bully, bullying people exactly like you, and you’d cowtow to this kind of schoolyard bullshit out of some sense of chickenshit pragmatism.

Pathetic. There are real and obvious limits to the amount of pique the Indians can show over this, pinched between Pakistan and China as they are. They’ve massively overstepped their hand here and they should get slapped hard for their fucked up behavior and the kinds of ongoing class exploitation it attempts to condone.

Frank, you’re right but CD is neither anti-American nor a coward. Cut her a little slack. But you are correct about the course we must take. We must hold the line.

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 3:48:55pm

re: #26 goddamnedfrank

I was not being nasty to you and you want to make it personal. The hell with you.

Charles gave me a warning when I did what you just did right there with the cowardice accusation.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 3:56:33pm

re: #29 Aunty Entity Dragon

You know…fuck off. seriously. Fuck off. I was not being nasty to you and you want to make it personal.

Charles gave me a warning when I did what you just did right there with the cowardice accusation.

Ma’am, will you still answer me? I haven’t been nasty but I do want to know why you think that we should just roll over and send Ms. Khobragade back to India, in light of how it would make us look.

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:03:03pm

re: #30 Dark_Falcon

Ma’am, will you still answer me? I haven’t been nasty but I do want to know why you think that we should just roll over and send Ms. Khobragade back to India, in light of how it would make us look.

Because that is the diplomatic norm for anything short of rape or murder. We do illegal things in other countries (29 CIA employees were tried in absentia in Italy for kidnapping and a lot of other stuff) and a case over underpaying an employee is no fucking cause to start unraveling the standards that protect our own people. Fer Christ’s sake, the diplomat in question makes about the same salary as my spouse who works at Walgreens…and we are accusing her of slave holding when she is paying her maid out of pocket 3 bucks an hour and she makes about 10.50 an hour??

WE have far, far more to lose here then India does…and the Chinese are laughing their asses off at us as we alienate one of their enemies.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:08:28pm

re: #31 Aunty Entity Dragon

Because that is the diplomatic norm for anything short of rape or murder. We do illegal things in other countries (29 CIA employees were tried in absentia in Italy for kidnapping and a lot of other stuff) and a case over underpaying an employee is no fucking cause to start unraveling the standards that protect our own people. Fer Christ’s sake, the diplomat in question makes about the same salary as my spouse who works at Walgreens…and we are accusing her of slave holding when she is paying her maid out of pocket 3 bucks an hour and she makes about 10.50 an hour??

WE have far, far more to lose here then India does…and the Chinese are laughing their asses off at us as we alienate one of their enemies.

My counter-argument is that this isn’t the first time we’ve seen this kind of bad behavior from diplomatic and consular officials. I really think we need to find out more about the conditions in which the maid was kept before we make a decision. I don’t want to send a message to the world that the US doesn”t take domestic slavery seriously, if that is what in fact this was.

Uncle Obdicut Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:19:39pm

re: #2 Aunty Entity Dragon

I am really trying to figure out how the hell they violated her diplomatic immunity that way. This is going to result in Americans ending up in jail over in India, and they are actively looking to retaliate.

When you find a foreign diplomat doing something wrong, you kick them out.

She didn’t have diplomatic immunity. She’s a consulate worker, not a diplomat.

goddamnedfrank Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:29:34pm

re: #32 Dark_Falcon

My counter-argument is that this isn’t the first time we’ve seen this kind of bad behavior from diplomatic and consular officials.

Dominique Strauss-Kahn. His accuser wasn’t of ideal character either, but arresting and charging him was the right thing to do given the facts available at the time. In any event in the end he turned out to be a real creep, faces charged in his own country for aggravated pimping. Despite the short term anger over the incident our relationship with France wasn’t permanently damaged by the arrest and attempted prosecution.

Removing the blast barriers from the embassy was a really despicable and fucked up reaction by the Indian government. They’re basically saying that us accusing and arresting one consular official calls for lowering the safety of an entire embassy in response. If this is the hill they want to die on then let them, in the end they need us a lot more than we need them.

Uncle Obdicut Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:32:35pm

Okay, to clear up some miconceptions:

She only has immunity from anything she does in her role at the consul. Not in her private life.

She not only forced a woman into servitude, she tried to get the Indian High Court to pressure the US to arrest that woman for the crime of running away from said servitude.

She was not handcuffed until the courthouse, where she was ordered into custody. The US Marshalls processed her, and part of that is a strip-search—which appears to be policy for their actual custody, and is generally policy before people go into custody in most law enforcement areas in the US. This is partially simply due to liability, but mostly about contraband and officer safety. It is generally, where done, done to everyone, which is more fair than singling out people. If she was singled out, if it is unusual for them to do it, then that will come out and change this slightly.

She also lied on this woman’s visa. That is an enormous, enormous breach of diplomatic protocol: she lied to get someone into the US. That is a gigantic offense from anyone, from someone on the consulate staff it’s just unbelievable. Doing something like that and then demanding diplomatic nicities beyond what she is actually deserved by treaty is nuts.

India’s response to this is in part because this exposes a grave, grave issue in India-three issues, actually. The first issue is that the disparity in treatment for the privileged and the destitute is gigantic in India. It is bad in the US, but it is unspeakable in India, which is heavily corrupt at the local level, making connections and wealth far more important than factual innocence in many cases—and especially in civil cases. The second issue it brings up is the Indian’s government failure to stop—and complicity, in many cases—with human trafficking. Here’s a report on that.

refworld.org

The final issue this exposes are the low wages that India pays its consular employees—this is one of the perennial reasons for corruption in the Indian government, and it’s another reminder to Indians that while they may now have high-tech and millionaires and an ultra-wealthy class, their nation, as opposed to their corporations, is still very poor.

Uncle Obdicut Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:34:01pm

re: #34 goddamnedfrank

Removing the blast barriers from the embassy was a really despicable and fucked up reaction by the Indian government. They’re basically saying that us accusing and arresting one consular official calls for lowering the safety of an entire embassy in response. If this is the hill they want to die on then let them, in the end they need us a lot more than we need them.

Doing this while Obama still has ‘benghazi’ shouted at him is a horrendous mistake on the part of India that speaks to a really, really, really, really worrying lack of comprehension of our political scene on their part.

What do they imagine Obama’s response is going to have to be if there’s an attack on an embassy? Are they really going to sacrifice their people’s lives for short-term electoral gain? And do they think this won’t be visible?

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:37:50pm

re: #34 goddamnedfrank

Dominique Strauss-Kahn. His accuser wasn’t of ideal character either, but arresting and charging him was the right thing to do given the facts available at the time. In any event in the end he turned out to be a real creep, faces charged in his own country for aggravated pimping. Despite the short term anger over the incident our relationship with France wasn’t permanently damaged by the arrest and attempted prosecution.

Removing the blast barriers from the embassy was a really despicable and fucked up reaction by the Indian government. They’re basically saying that us accusing and arresting one consular official calls for lowering the safety of an entire embassy in response. If this is the hill they want to die on then let them, in the end they need us a lot more than we need them.

To play Devil’s Advocate though, in the case of Strauss-Kahn the actual criminal charge filed was of the sort of gravity that we normally would hold a consular official (save for an actual consul, since they have full immunity). Moreover, he was not in New York on diplomatic business at the time, so his lack of even customary immunity was clear-cut.

Lastly, there was never the danger of France overreacting in the way India may do. For all its anti-American verbiage, France doesn’t have the neuroses that India has.

Uncle Obdicut Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:42:38pm

By the way, the crime this woman committed (on top of the visa stuff) was peonage.
Nice word, ugly crime.

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:49:35pm

re: #33 Uncle Obdicut

She didn’t have diplomatic immunity. She’s a consulate worker, not a diplomat.

We are claiming she has consulate immunity and not general immunity. India does not agree.

Uncle Obdicut Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:55:26pm

re: #39 Aunty Entity Dragon

We are claiming she has consulate immunity and not general immunity. India does not agree.

It doesn’t matter if they don’t agree, she has an actual status here in the US assigned to her by the US government, and that status is that she’s a consulate worker.

Please read my lengthy post. The issue of forced servitude, of peonage, of human trafficking, is a hugely important one and the US government should be celebrated whenever it does something to work against it. There is actually a general crackdown going on right now over this unhappily common practice by foreign diplomats in the US; some towns near DC have passed statues recently given them more opportunity to verify the conditions of employment and shut down this sort of trafficking and servitude.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:55:30pm

re: #39 Aunty Entity Dragon

We are claiming she has consulate immunity and not general immunity. India does not agree.

Why should we just accept their interpretation of the treaty in question? I’d say that we should approach that point with great care, but if we’re right we need to hold to our interpretation. We don’t want to set a precedent of simply accepting another nation’s interpretation of a treaty simply because we fear their retaliation for our lawful actions.

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 4:56:22pm

re: #38 Uncle Obdicut

By the way, the crime this woman committed (on top of the visa stuff) was peonage.
Nice word, ugly crime.

And the accusations levied by India against the maid are just as ugly, including extortion and theft.

NEW DELHI: India has escalated its confrontation with the US over the humiliation heaped on its diplomat, Devyani Khobragade, by virtually accusing Washington of conspiring to facilitate the illegal immigration of Khobragade’s maid Sangeeta Richards and her family, comprising her husband and two children, to America.

New Delhi divulged on Wednesday that the maid’s family flew out on an Air India flight on December 10, two days before Khobragade was arrested in New York. This was despite India informing the US state department about the disappearance of the maid in June, her attempts to blackmail Khobragade, the revocation of Richards’ passport, and an arrest warrant being issued against the maid by the Delhi high court.

Keep in mind that the diplomat, Khobragade is an dalit, or popularly known as an untouchable…so you can’t say that she is a class beneficiary with respect to the maid.

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 5:01:35pm

re: #40 Uncle Obdicut

It doesn’t matter if they don’t agree, she has an actual status here in the US assigned to her by the US government, and that status is that she’s a consulate worker.

It matters a very great deal whether they agree. It will determine just how they treat our people over there. We managed to hit on several real sore points in Indian culture, and the fact that she is a dalit is making it even worse since the Indian government absolutely cannot look like they are going to throw her under the bus…and elections are coming up. Anti Americanism has always been a popular go-to in 3rd world countries and in India we get tied in with anti-British colonialism.

The internal politics make it next to impossible for the Indian PM to back down on this one.

Uncle Obdicut Wed, Dec 18, 2013 5:09:06pm

re: #42 Aunty Entity Dragon

I can certainly say she’s a class beneficiary. Caste isn’t the only level of caste in India, otherwise she wouldn’t be over here as a consul. You can’t acknowledge that, and at the same time claim that caste is the only system of class in India.

I’m really confused as to what you’re now alleging. You’re saying that the US attorney looked at India’s claims, looked at the maid’s, and then decided the maid’s story was more credible based on nothing at all?

I trust the US government far, far more than the Indian government, with its enormous levels of corruption.

re: #43 Aunty Entity Dragon

It matters a very great deal whether they agree. It will determine just how they treat our people over there.

Then it doesn’t actually matter if she is, or if there’s the least credible claim, you’re saying. Yes, India can insist things are different than they are. That’s obviously true.

We managed to hit on several real sore points in Indian culture, and the fact that she is a dalit is making it even worse since the Indian government absolutely cannot look like they are going to throw her under the bus…and elections are coming up. Anti Americanism has always been a popular go-to in 3rd world countries and in India we get tied in with anti-British colonialism.

There’s also leftovers from the cold war. It may have been impolitic, but as I said at length, a lot of the reasons why India is in turmoil over this is because of ugly stuff it exposes about India, not about the US. The US can’t not uphold the human rights of Indian citizens who are in the US in an attempt to make nice with the Indian government.

The internal politics make it next to impossible for the Indian PM to back down on this one.

This woman has certainly done an enormous amount of damage to her country through her actions, yes. On the bare, bare possibility that the maid is somehow a masterful liar who was able to convince a US attorney that this obviously highly charged move was a good idea, she’s done an enormous disservice to her country. The US has not done anything wrong here, unless you think that the US attorney is actually incompetent, corrupt or hates Indians or something.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 5:11:00pm

re: #43 Aunty Entity Dragon

It matters a very great deal whether they agree. It will determine just how they treat our people over there. We managed to hit on several real sore points in Indian culture, and the fact that she is a dalit is making it even worse since the Indian government absolutely cannot look like they are going to throw her under the bus…and elections are coming up. Anti Americanism has always been a popular go-to in 3rd world countries and in India we get tied in with anti-British colonialism.

The internal politics make it next to impossible for the Indian PM to back down on this one.

And neither can we. If it gets ugly, then it does. We can’t just lie down because of India’s cultural neuroses. Again, CD, I must ask if you’ve considered the negative consequences of our backing down.

Uncle Obdicut Wed, Dec 18, 2013 5:11:50pm

I am perfectly comfortable, on the world stage, with the ethics of the US arresting human traffickers while India arrests gay partners of diplomats. I’m really not sure India is going to want to embrace that picture.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 5:15:22pm

re: #46 Uncle Obdicut

I am perfectly comfortable, on the world stage, with the ethics of the US arresting human traffickers while India arrests gay partners of diplomats. I’m really not sure India is going to want to embrace that picture.

The Indian government won’t want to, but given the bad situation the Congress party is in they’ll accept it to minimize their electoral losses.

But that doesn’t change the fundamental point that I agree with you on, that being that the United States cannot allow its enforcement of its laws to be subject to India’s electoral politics.

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 6:04:06pm

re: #44 Uncle Obdicut

I have been a sucker in the past for these “powerless taking on the powerful” cases (the Duke Lacross catastrophe, the maid vs Dominic Strauss) and they keep blowing up in my face. The maid tried to blackmail her employer and it really doe slook to me like she had planned all along to sell this “trafficking” angle to get her family over here to the US.

Uncle Obdicut Wed, Dec 18, 2013 6:12:08pm

re: #48 Aunty Entity Dragon

The maid tried to blackmail her employer and it really doe slook to me like she had planned all along to sell this “trafficking” angle to get her family over here to the US.

You are asserting this as a fact. It’s time to take a step back and think about how being ‘burned’ in the past may be affecting your judgement now. There are a large number of charges, including visa fraud, that it would be hard for the maid on her own to bring enough testimony on.

Uncle Obdicut Wed, Dec 18, 2013 6:14:17pm

It would actually be nearly impossible for the maid’s story not to be true, for the simple reason that this person didn’t make enough money to pay her the promised wage.

goddamnedfrank Wed, Dec 18, 2013 6:42:14pm

re: #50 Uncle Obdicut

It would actually be nearly impossible for the maid’s story not to be true, for the simple reason that this person didn’t make enough money to pay her the promised wage.

According to Time Khobragade made approximately $6,500 per month. However the Indian government’s estimate for the cost of a housekeeper is ridiculously high.

The Indian diplomatic corps has come to Khobragade’s defense, saying that her salary of approximately $6,500 a month would not have allowed her to hire a housekeeper on the U.S. minimum wage — about $4,500 a month.

The $9.75 / hr promised salary would have cost her x40hrs x4 weeks = $1560 / month plus 6.2% Social Security + 1.45% Medicare = 1679.34 / month.. That would have left Khobragade $4820 per month. The Indian government is just lying about the cost she faced. In any event if she couldn’t afford to pay her maid the minimum wage the answer obviously isn’t to falsify a visa and break employment law to get one, the answer is to do what millions of struggling New Yorkers do, their own housework.

Finally, that $4,820 she would have had leftover does sound like tight when you consider NY cost of living, however her husband is reportedly employed as a professor of philosophy, so her salary should not have been the only contribution to the household budget.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 7:01:58pm

re: #51 goddamnedfrank

According to Time Khobragade made approximately $6,500 per month. However the Indian government’s estimate for the cost of a housekeeper is ridiculously high.

The $9.75 / hr promised salary would have cost her x40hrs x4 weeks = $1560 / month plus 6.2% Social Security + 1.45% Medicare = 1679.34 / month.. That would have left Khobragade $4820 per month. The Indian government is just lying about the cost she faced. In any event if she couldn’t afford to pay her maid the minimum wage the answer obviously isn’t to falsify a visa and break employment law to get one, the answer is to do what millions of struggling New Yorkers do, their own housework.

Finally, that $4,820 she would have had leftover does sound like tight when you consider NY cost of living, however her husband is reportedly employed as a professor of philosophy, so her salary should not have been the only contribution to the household budget.

I’d wager the the figures the Indian diplomatic corps put out were mainly for domestic consumption. They were intended to show that India is in the right and the US is being an unreasonable bully. It isn’t true, but Celtic Dragon isn’t wrong when she notes how it will play over there. But you’re also right, Frank, about not letting that cause us to give in.

Uncle Obdicut Wed, Dec 18, 2013 7:32:19pm

re: #51 goddamnedfrank

Oh, whoops. I was foolishly going by the Indian government’s claim. However, it’s also possible she has to kick back a significant portion of that salary.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 7:35:56pm

re: #53 Uncle Obdicut

Oh, whoops. I was foolishly going by the Indian government’s claim. However, it’s also possible she has to kick back a significant portion of that salary.

Then that’s on India and on her, is it not?

Aunty Entity Dragon Wed, Dec 18, 2013 8:17:29pm

re: #49 Uncle Obdicut

You are asserting this as a fact. It’s time to take a step back and think about how being ‘burned’ in the past may be affecting your judgement now. There are a large number of charges, including visa fraud, that it would be hard for the maid on her own to bring enough testimony on.

The blackmail demand was forwarded to law enforcement here in America as well as in India last summer, which is why the warrant for arrest was issued by the High Court in New Delhi.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Also…

While not confirmed, it is believed the Richards family has been sent to US on a visa category that is reserved for victims of human trafficking, provided they assist the US authorities in the case. In other words, the ground was carefully created to arrest Khobragade. And the US didn’t believe its strategic partner but an absconding maid — something that’s being regarded here as an act of hostility.

Meanwhile, MEA refuted US official Nisha Desai-Biswal’s contention that the Indian mission was informed of the issue in September. Calling it “dead wrong”, MEA said it was India which first informed the US about the disappearance of the maid. India warned the US of the possibility of a visa fraud by Richards. Instead, it was astonished to find the US has actually facilitated it.

The MEA and security establishment have told the US that India would ensure the security of its embassy and diplomats. This came after the US publicly called for the safety of its diplomats. But the measures taken are intended to hurt the US. The loss of airport passes for an embassy that sees massive VIP traffic is certain to prove a major problem. US diplomats in their four consulates will have their IDs stamped by the police that will specify they are not eligible for any diplomatic immunity. This reflects the privileges that Indian diplomats enjoy in the US.

I said that this would happen. Now let’s see how long it is until a bunch of our people are cooling their heels in Indian prisons.

Deport the diplomat now. Probably best to get rid of the maid as well.

The War TARDIS Wed, Dec 18, 2013 8:42:40pm

re: #37 Dark_Falcon

France strikes me more as the kind of friend who acts as a foil.

Think Kirk and Spock.

Uncle Obdicut Thu, Dec 19, 2013 3:29:27am

re: #55 Aunty Entity Dragon

The blackmail demand was forwarded to law enforcement here in America as well as in India last summer, which is why the warrant for arrest was issued by the High Court in New Delhi.

Again, why do you believe the blackmail demand? Why are you asserting it as fact?

I said that this would happen. Now let’s see how long it is until a bunch of our people are cooling their heels in Indian prisons.

Deport the diplomat now. Probably best to get rid of the maid as well.

That’s cold. That’s really damn cold.

Uncle Obdicut Thu, Dec 19, 2013 3:29:44am

re: #56 The War TARDIS

France strikes me more as the kind of friend who acts as a foil.

Think Kirk and Spock.

That is not how reality works.

Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 19, 2013 5:30:53am

re: #55 Aunty Entity Dragon

The blackmail demand was forwarded to law enforcement here in America as well as in India last summer, which is why the warrant for arrest was issued by the High Court in New Delhi.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Also…

I said that this would happen. Now let’s see how long it is until a bunch of our people are cooling their heels in Indian prisons.

Deport the diplomat now. Probably best to get rid of the maid as well.

If they imprison our consular officials on trumped-up charges then I’m with GD Frank, cut the number of H1B visas issued to Indians in 2014 in half immediately. Anyone needing to renew their visa is first in line, but if the number of Indians already here on such visas exceeds the new number of visas, the remainder will have 30 days to leave the US. They can then thank their government for costing then their jobs.

India needs to remember how unwilling Americans are to have foreigners tell us what to do.

Uncle Obdicut Thu, Dec 19, 2013 5:42:22am

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

Now you’re getting all jingoistic. Let’s not ruin a nice moment of the US standing up for human rights by saying that the point here is not letting foreigners tell us what to do. That’s not what’s going on here.

Also, from what I’m reading it appears the ‘blackmail’ may have been an attempt by the maid to get the wages she was promised, threatening to otherwise go to the authorities. Which isn’t blackmail.

Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 19, 2013 5:58:29am

re: #60 Uncle Obdicut

Now you’re getting all jingoistic. Let’s not ruin a nice moment of the US standing up for human rights by saying that the point here is not letting foreigners tell us what to do. That’s not what’s going on here.

Also, from what I’m reading it appears the ‘blackmail’ may have been an attempt by the maid to get the wages she was promised, threatening to otherwise go to the authorities. Which isn’t blackmail.

Obdi, I’m only suggesting we take further action if India does first. I’m not suggest anyone in the government threatens them before hand. But in demanding that the US accept its interpretation of a treaty and its interpretation of a criminal case, India is indeed telling the US what to do. Americans typically don’t take that sort thing very well, and large numbers of Americans can always be found supporting hurling defiance at the other nation.

I don’t want things to get ugly, but if India starts wrongfully jailing Americans, then by jingo it’s going get ugly.

Uncle Obdicut Thu, Dec 19, 2013 6:19:39am

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

Obdi, I’m only suggesting we take further action if India does first. I’m not suggest anyone in the government threatens them before hand. But in demanding that the US accept its interpretation of a treaty and its interpretation of a criminal case, India is indeed telling the US what to do. Americans typically don’t take that sort thing very well, and large numbers of Americans can always be found supporting hurling defiance at the other nation.

I don’t want things to get ugly, but if India starts wrongfully jailing Americans, then by jingo it’s going get ugly.

That’s very different than this:

India needs to remember how unwilling Americans are to have foreigners tell us what to do.

kirkspencer Thu, Dec 19, 2013 9:10:57am

I know this has progressed past that point but I need to make a correction. The guide on searches I quoted above is out of date.

In a 5-4 decision on Florence v Board of Chosen Freeholders, the US Supreme Court ruled that strip searches can be conducted for all arrests, to include non-indictable minor offenses. (The case was an arrest due to alleged failure to pay a fine - something that turned out to be a clerical error.) The decision was made last year and law enforcement agencies everywhere have been revising their rules in response.

Uncle Obdicut Thu, Dec 19, 2013 9:28:24am

This is what Indian’s Foreign Minister said:

“We are not convinced there is a legitimate legal ground for pursuing this case,” he said. “The worst that can be said about her is that she did not comply with the amounts that was supposed to be paid under your law. I don’t think that justifies treating her like a common criminal.”

Heh. The worst she did was break the law, I mean, come on, that doesn’t mean she’s some kind of criminal!

KingKenrod Thu, Dec 19, 2013 5:49:28pm

re: #40 Uncle Obdicut

Please read my lengthy post. The issue of forced servitude, of peonage, of human trafficking, is a hugely important one and the US government should be celebrated whenever it does something to work against it. There is actually a general crackdown going on right now over this unhappily common practice by foreign diplomats in the US; some towns near DC have passed statues recently given them more opportunity to verify the conditions of employment and shut down this sort of trafficking and servitude.

Serious charges, what’s the evidence for that in this case? The US complaint doesn’t allege anything like that. In fact, the complaint establishes that the maid signed the contract for the lower wage in India in front of witnesses, so this doesn’t look like a case of the maid getting trapped unaware once they reached the US and not being allowed to return to India.

Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 19, 2013 5:56:59pm

re: #65 KingKenrod

Serious charges, what’s the evidence for that in this case? The US complaint doesn’t allege anything like that. In fact, the complaint establishes that the maid signed the contract for the lower wage in India in front of witnesses, so this doesn’t look like a case of the maid getting trapped unaware once they reached the US and not being allowed to return to India.

But that just proves Ms. Khobragade guilty of visa fraud, because she knew she was paying her maid a lower wage than that allowed by law. If the prosecution can get a verifiable copy of that contract then they wouldn’t even need the maid’s testimony; They’d have a slum dunk case just based on the documents Ms. Khobragade signed.

Uncle Obdicut Thu, Dec 19, 2013 6:19:28pm

re: #65 KingKenrod

Serious charges, what’s the evidence for that in this case? The US complaint doesn’t allege anything like that. In fact, the complaint establishes that the maid signed the contract for the lower wage in India in front of witnesses, so this doesn’t look like a case of the maid getting trapped unaware once they reached the US and not being allowed to return to India.

The Indian government cancelled her (purposely faulty) passport. One of the things she was asking for in the ‘extortion’ she’s accused of is a valid passport. Whether or not she knew ahead of time what the wages would be is only marginally relevant. We don’t let people who underpay off because the person agreed to it, the point is that agreement is illegal in the first place.

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