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1 calochortus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 8:31:57am

I don’t disagree vehemently, but I do disagree. Comforting the afflicted is a fine thing. Actually helping improve their lives is better.
Some religious organizations do practical work in that area, but a belief in God by itself does not. Takeesha may feel God went with her in the car the first time she was sold by her mother, but He seems not to have been with a lot of women who were abused or murdered under similar circumstances. It also seems odd that God was going to protect her from death, but not child prostitution.

I also am not sure that religion isn’t a crutch for the wealthy and powerful since it is obviously God’s will that they have what they have and that others are poor.

In short, I have no particular interest in taking away people’s beliefs as long as they aren’t trying to impose them on others, but IMHO religion generally reinforces our own inclinations (for good or ill) rather than making the world as a whole better.

2 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 9:07:38am

re: #1 calochortus

I don’t disagree vehemently, but I do disagree. Comforting the afflicted is a fine thing. Actually helping improve their lives is better.
Some religious organizations do practical work in that area, but a belief in God by itself does not. Takeesha may feel God went with her in the car the first time she was sold by her mother, but He seems not to have been with a lot of women who were abused or murdered under similar circumstances. It also seems odd that God was going to protect her from death, but not child prostitution.

I agree with you to a certain point, i.e. that Takeesha’s belief in God may contain all sorts of logical fallacies, but it’s not about logic or philosophy, it’s about what helps her get through the awful reality of her day. If that belief comforts her, then IMO it’s improving her life, though perhaps only in a small, non-material way.

I also am not sure that religion isn’t a crutch for the wealthy and powerful since it is obviously God’s will that they have what they have and that others are poor.

I can’t argue with that, heh.

In short, I have no particular interest in taking away people’s beliefs as long as they aren’t trying to impose them on others, but IMHO religion generally reinforces our own inclinations (for good or ill) rather than making the world as a whole better.

I agree with the first half of what you said, but I think the second half lacks evidence. I’m inclined to agree that religion generally reinforces (or even magnifies) inclinations that already exist, but is there any record of a time human history when there was a widespread absence of religious belief? I’m not aware of any, though there are admittedly many things I’m unaware of. Without such evidence I don’t think it’s possible to categorically assert that religion does or doesn’t make the world measurably better (or worse).

3 Randall Gross  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 9:21:27am

re: #2 CuriousLurker

There is some thin evidence beginning to crop up. I can’t recall whose study it was but recently they did brain imaging studies where they asked questions regarding moral situations and ethics - the same patterns of thought appeared when the test subjects were asked what god thought, or what they thought about similar situations. I’ll see if I can find it.

4 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 9:26:22am

re: #3 Randall Gross

There is some thin evidence beginning to crop up. I can’t recall whose study it was but recently they did brain imaging studies where they asked questions regarding moral situations and ethics - the same patterns of thought appeared when the test subjects were asked what god thought, or what they thought about similar situations. I’ll see if I can find it.

Thanks, that sounds vaguely familiar—if you find it I’d be very interested in reading it.

5 aagcobb  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:35:05am

Know what’s better than leaving people to cling to God because they are in a hopeless situation? Get them out of the hopeless situation. The US is easily rich enough that no-one has to live in poverty. If we had the will, poverty could be ended tomorrow.

6 Rocky-in-Connecticut  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 10:54:28am

religion is mandatory for a large part of American public because whole family and social constructs are built around religious affiliation. If you want to keep in good graces with the family, then stay with the family religion. If you want to take advantage of social and career prospects of your family church, then you must stay in the church. Romance also plays a factor as a church romance can obviously put pressure on one of them to not leave the church or lose their religion. I’ve seen these as primary reasons many stay within the bounds of their cultural and religious heritage.

I have not seen any research into those persons who leave their family and home town behind in a break from their nurturing confines. I would be willing to guess the balance of Reason (Atheism) over Religious adherence is much higher among those who leave these cornerstones of youth behind.

7 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:07:58am

re: #6 Rocky-in-Connecticut

Changing one’s religion can also cause major friction, though I suppose it depends how “different” the religion one is converting to is perceived as.

Even so, I suppose that in many cases abandoning religion altogether would be the move that is most fraught with potential for personal upheaval in terms of family and society.

8 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:08:30am

re: #5 aagcobb

True that.

9 cinesimon  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 11:55:40am

Education, not amount of family money.

10 Danforth  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 1:37:25pm
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

~ Susan B. Anthony

11 calochortus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:02:37pm

re: #2 CuriousLurker

I don’t know that there is a time or place without religious belief of some sort, but there have certainly been religions that are radically different from, say, the Abrahamic faiths and yet, human societies seem to be pretty similar everywhere.
Deeply religious societies seem to have all the strengths and failings of less religious ones and faith has been used to justify horrendous actions, just as it has helped organized charity. I suspect it is human nature imposing its desires on religion, not the religion improving the morality of the populace.

I’m not suggesting that an atheistic society would necessarily be better than a religious one-although it could be, just no worse.

12 calochortus  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 2:06:10pm

re: #3 Randall Gross

There is some thin evidence beginning to crop up. I can’t recall whose study it was but recently they did brain imaging studies where they asked questions regarding moral situations and ethics - the same patterns of thought appeared when the test subjects were asked what god thought, or what they thought about similar situations. I’ll see if I can find it.

Is this it?
I believe when people’s ideas about something changed, they were also likely to change what they thought God’s opinion was as well.

13 Achilles Tang  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:00:41pm

This is all silly. Obviously anyone knows that some people get comfort from belief in the imaginary. Probably even atheists do, although not the same kind of all powerful fantasy.

14 Flounder  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 3:02:12pm

Their eyes have a hunger to them. Great post, thank you.

15 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 5:32:00pm

Nice page, CL.

I’d be interested in Arnade’s reasons for quitting Wall Street and going to work with homeless people. How did he acquire compassion?

I care more about whether a person has compassion than whether they have religion. And someone who wants to confront the religious about their faith lacks compassion.

From the link:

I also see Richard Dawkins differently. I see him as a grown up version of that 16-year-old kid, proud of being smart, unable to understand why anyone would believe or think differently from himself. I see a person so removed from humanity and so removed from the ambiguity of life that he finds himself judging those who think differently.

I see someone doing what he claims to hate in others. Preaching from a selfish vantage point.

16 freetoken  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 5:58:32pm

Someone once wrote:

[…]

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

[…]

17 StephenMeansMe  Fri, Dec 27, 2013 7:07:26pm

His conclusions seem pretty darn condescending to me: like a certain class of people simply aren’t capable of choosing to believe or not. And anyhow what he’s calling “atheism” smells like more than just lack-of-belief-in-a-god. Like secular humanism or something.

Which, I think humanism (secular or not) really is for everyone. Better than getting shat on by the world and hoping for a better shake in the next life (or taking comfort in believing that someone “up there” secretly cares).

18 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 3:44:48am

No, Mr. Arnaud. Atheism isn’t an intellectual luxury for the wealthy at all. I sensed a great deal of “evangelical fervor” in your tales and photography.

I grew up very poor and also raised 2 children by myself. It was for that reason, and the hypocrisy of the churches I was exposed to as a child which turned me into an atheist. I see people using religion every day—not as “faith” or a real belief, but as a social medium in which they make social and business contacts. What church you attend is more important than the university you went to, or your expertise.

I’ve seen religion used to bang people over the head because you weren’t one of “them”. The arrogant assumption that people make when you started a new job, or moved into a new neighborhood about being religious always astounded me. And no others judge you more harshly than those whose ideas you reject.

It’s not surprising that many of the subjects of Mr. Arnaud’s photography may seem like they have a religious faith, but for some, I think it may be a childish holdover, clinging to something that didn’t stop their decline into drugs, prostitution, and the like, and the probability that they are forced into “accepting” religion the same way they accept any other form of material help. The feeling among many is to fake it, by acting religious just to get some form of help; after a while, it becomes mere habit without thinking, like the drugs themselves. Taking their pictures, some reluctantly, is just feeding Mr. Arnaud’s ego and avocation and making him feel better, not them, no matter how they try to slice it. It’s a bit of attention they wouldn’t get otherwise, but in the scheme of things, it’s negligible permanency in the form of photography, where people can gawk, condemn, feel better about themselves for not falling into that trap.

They aren’t a whole lot different that the people who go home to a freshly made up bed in an expensive neighborhood, spend $100 on dinner, their “brethren” who don’t even give them a thought ever. The same people who are just human, too, who commit murder, drink too much, get hooked on prescription drugs, engage in financial crimes. Except they can also be very wealthy and the pushers of false hope and pie in the sky “faith”—all the way down to the subjects of Mr. Arnaud’s photography. Well, it’s better for them, this religious “revival” that seems to take over from time to time, than people actually seeing and learning the truth, isn’t it?

19 Stoatly  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 5:49:10am

re: #16 freetoken

And ironically that someone’s ideas came to be treated with religious fervour by his own disciples - who schismed and fragmented over the True Words of their Prophet to the extent that Marx himself declared: “All I know is that I am not a Marxist.” or some such

The comfort given by certainty and faith - religious or political is undeniable, but whether it brings a net benefit is less clear cut.
It is so common to see addicts swap drugs or drink for a deep faith that many have asked about the similarity as a coping mechanism - or even as swapping one addictive patten for another

20 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 6:00:17am

re: #10 Danforth

~ Susan B. Anthony

Good quote. I’m not sure how it applies to this situation though as no one (besides maybe “Preacher Man”) seems to be claiming that they know what God wants them to do.

21 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 6:03:14am

re: #11 calochortus

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said, but I’d point out that I’ve made no claims about about religion improving morality.

22 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 6:09:10am

re: #14 Flounder

Their eyes have a hunger to them. Great post, thank you.

You’re welcome. I guess, as with everything, we all see different things—I saw a a bone-deep weariness in many eyes.

23 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 6:12:04am

re: #15 wrenchwench

Nice page, CL.

I’d be interested in Arnade’s reasons for quitting Wall Street and going to work with homeless people. How did he acquire compassion?

I care more about whether a person has compassion than whether they have religion. And someone who wants to confront the religious about their faith lacks compassion.

From the link:

Thanks. I agree that having and showing compassion is far more important than religious belief.

24 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 6:17:48am

re: #16 freetoken

Someone once wrote:

Most worldviews—be they sociopolitical, religious, whatever—usually sound good in theory, but fail in practice once imperfect humans get a hold of them.

Edit: I have yet to see or read about any system that has successfully delivered “real happiness” for everyone. How could it when everyone’s needs are different the things that make any given person happy can vary wildly?

25 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 6:26:35am

re: #17 StephenMeansMe

His conclusions seem pretty darn condescending to me: like a certain class of people simply aren’t capable of choosing to believe or not.

Good point. I think you may have hit on part of why I said I didn’t completely agree with him, though I couldn’t quite put my finger on exactly why.

26 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 6:37:37am

re: #24 CuriousLurker

Most worldviews—be they sociopolitical, religious, whatever—usually sound good in theory, but fail in practice once imperfect humans get a hold of them.

>Edit: I have yet to see or read about any system that has successfully delivered “real happiness” for everyone. How could it when everyone’s needs are different the things that make any given person happy can vary wildly?

This assumes that ‘real happiness’ is some kind of cultural goal. A wide range of ideologies will work to raise a culture to hegemony, as long as they are minimally consistent with environmental and technological reality. The Egyptian, Chinese, Roman, Aztec, and British empires didn’t spend a lot on Gallup polling to see if everyone was happy.

27 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 6:41:56am

re: #18 Justanotherhuman

Interesting points to ponder.

After having slept on it and had more time to think, I guess part of what bothered me is that since his profession is now that of a photographer, Mr. Arnade is presumably making a profit off of capturing images of people’s suffering. I’m not comfortable with that kind of “art”, no matter how well intentioned.

IMO, it’s different when a photographer is working in a news/reporting capacity, say documenting a war or whatever… even then, there are limits.

28 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 7:27:10am

re: #26 Decatur Deb

This assumes that ‘real happiness’ is some kind of cultural goal. A wide range of ideologies will work to raise a culture to hegemony, as long as they are minimally consistent with environmental and technological reality. The Egyptian, Chinese, Roman, Aztec, and British empires didn’t spend a lot on Gallup polling to see if everyone was happy.

True, but the quote talks about people demanding “real happiness” in the place of the “illusory happiness” of religion and giving up “a condition that requires illusions”.

I mean, I’d say Americans are “happy” in that most have their basic needs met and aren’t seeking to escape to some other, better country to live in. But how much of our own happiness is based on illusion that has nothing whatsoever to do with religious belief?

We ignoring the suffering of the poor, the homeless, and the addicted among us, not to mention other countries’ sweatshops & the horrible working conditions that furnish us with a steady supply of cheap goods.

We keep guzzling petroleum, the profits of which fund repressive, misogynistic regimes (not to mention extreme ideologies), the while screaming about how horribly barbaric & unenlightened they are.

We built our country on grand ideas and talk of freedom & equality, all while standing ankle deep in the blood & suffering of the countless African slaves upon whose backs were built our riches, and whose toil built our gleaming marble monuments—without ever receiving the benefits of our Enlightenment based notions of freedom.

Does none of that qualify our own (secular) happiness as one that “requires illusions”? I guess I just get tired of pat answers—people say, “If you just do/believe X, Y, Z and it will set you free, make your life better.” It doesn’t really mater if X, Y, and Z have to do with religion or philosophy or politics or economics or whatever—it’s the same spiel. I think situations and people & their relationships are way more complex than we like to admit,

29 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 7:29:51am

re: #19 Stoatly

It is so common to see addicts swap drugs or drink for a deep faith that many have asked about the similarity as a coping mechanism - or even as swapping one addictive patten for another

THIS. I’ve seen many people swap one form of extremism/addiction for another.

30 aagcobb  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 7:30:54am

re: #27 CuriousLurker

Interesting points to ponder.

After having slept on it and had more time to think, I guess part of what bothered me is that since his profession is now that of a photographer, Mr. Arnade is presumably making a profit off of capturing images of people’s suffering. I’m not comfortable with that kind of “art”, no matter how well intentioned.

IMO, it’s different when a photographer is working in a news/reporting capacity, say documenting a war or whatever… even then, there are limits.

But its important that these people not be invisible so that we can ignore them.

31 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 7:34:38am

re: #28 CuriousLurker

Want to pursue this, but right now my happiness depends on another slug of Nyquil and crawling back to bed.

I take it you are referring to Texas here:

“We keep guzzling petroleum, the profits of which fund repressive, misogynistic regimes (not to mention extreme ideologies), the while screaming about how horribly barbaric & unenlightened they are.”

32 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 7:37:25am

re: #30 aagcobb

But its important that these people not be invisible so that we can ignore them.

Indeed it is important. I guess it’s just that the idea of their photos being in some $75 coffee table book that gets clucked over by well-to do people at a cocktail party or whatever bugs the hell out of me. Maybe that’s why some of the subjects were flipping the bird at the camera.

Those may be the same people who write large checks to charities, but still… it rankles… it seems like there should be some other, better way to help.

33 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 7:38:28am

re: #31 Decatur Deb

Want to pursue this, but right now my happiness depends on another slug of Nyquil and crawling back to bed.

Oh, man. Hope you feel better soon.

I take it you are referring to Texas here:

“We keep guzzling petroleum, the profits of which fund repressive, misogynistic regimes (not to mention extreme ideologies), the while screaming about how horribly barbaric & unenlightened they are.”

ROFL

34 calochortus  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 9:44:12am

re: #21 CuriousLurker

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said, but I’d point out that I’ve made no claims about about religion improving morality.

I realize you didn’t say that. My reference to morality is because I think improved morality improves the world (though not everyone agrees on the definition of morality.) Having something to cling to in tough times is all well and good, but if religion was really going to be a force for good, it would make the world a better place. Solace is a wonderful thing, but not if it encourages everyone to just accept an unjust status quo.

The bumper sticker theology of “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” leaps to mind. I suspect these folks are not planning on being better than anyone else, they just have a ‘get out of jail free’ card to play while you and I don’t.

As I said, I have no particular interest in taking away anyone’s faith, but I don’t think there is much accomplished by looking at only the good religion (or any institution) does without also looking for the harm-and vice versa.

35 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 10:36:15am

re: #34 calochortus

The bumper sticker theology of “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” leaps to mind. I suspect these folks are not planning on being better than anyone else, they just have a ‘get out of jail free’ card to play while you and I don’t.

Yeah, that bumper sticker makes me twitch every time I see it.

As I said, I have no particular interest in taking away anyone’s faith, but I don’t think there is much accomplished by looking at only the good religion (or any institution) does without also looking for the harm-and vice versa.

Understood and I agree. There’s no shortage of discussion about the harms of religion though—a quick perusal of any given day’s articles & Pages and their associated comments here at LGF will prove that.

Given the attitude of the religious right, their partners in the GOP, and the current political climate, it’s to be expected. Posting the occasional article about the good a given religion may do isn’t an attempt to whitewash all religion or deny that it can harm as well as hurt, at least not on my part. As you may or may not have seen me mention before, I have direct personal experience from my teenage years with how harmful extreme evangelical Christianity can be, and in my earlier years as a Muslim I spent countless agita-filled hours sparring with Salafi types.

I guess what I’m saying is I don’t feel the need to acknowledge that religion can be harmful every time I mention that it can be also be good, just as I don’t think it’s necessary for me (as a Muslim) to denounce terrorism & other forms of extremism any time I criticize another religion, or to denounce Hamas any time I want to voice a criticism of some action by Israel.

Sometimes if feels like the minute religion comes up people’s eyes glaze over and they go into knee-jerk reaction mode where everyone just goes on auto-pilot and starts talking past each other. I don’t mean you personally, I mean generally speaking. It kinda weirds me out.

36 calochortus  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 11:16:20am

re: #35 CuriousLurker

I know, it’s tough to deal with large, nuanced topics without either boring people’s socks off with looooong posts or reverting to the knee jerk mode.

At least we try to do it here. It’s good because it helps me refine my position by discussing the whole thing with reasonable people like you.

37 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 11:25:10am

re: #36 calochortus

Agreed. Thanks for taking the time to participate. {{{calochortus}}}

38 jonhendry  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 11:48:34am

re: #2 CuriousLurker

I agree with you to a certain point, i.e. that Takeesha’s belief in God may contain all sorts of logical fallacies, but it’s not about logic or philosophy, it’s about what helps her get through the awful reality of her day. If that belief comforts her, then IMO it’s improving her life, though perhaps only in a small, non-material way.

I think the problem comes in when that religious analgesia is an enabler, and gets in the way of someone taking the steps that could actually improve their life.

39 jonhendry  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 11:54:31am

re: #19 Stoatly

Marx isn’t the only one to make that observation. As Wikipedia notes:

Charles Kingsley, Canon of the Church of England, wrote this four years after Marx[3]
We have used the Bible as if it were a mere special constable’s hand book, an opium dose for keeping beasts of burden patient while they were being overloaded, a mere book to keep the poor in order. [4]

and

In 1798, Novalis wrote in Blüthenstaub (Pollen):[2]
Ihre sogenannte Religion wirkt bloß wie ein Opiat: reizend, betäubend, Schmerzen aus Schwäche stillend.
Their so-called religion acts merely as an opiate: irritating, numbing, calming their pain out of weakness.

40 jonhendry  Sat, Dec 28, 2013 12:01:56pm

re: #24 CuriousLurker

Buddhism is probably the religion that deals most directly with suffering or “unsatisfactoriness”. It can’t keep everyone happy, but it advises on ways to avoid exacerbating the unhappy things that come along - including the inevitable ending of happy times. Even if you’re reborn in a “heaven realm”, that’s bittersweet, because it will eventually end and you’ll be reborn again in another realm.

There’s a passage in the Buddhist texts about avoiding the “second arrow”.

When touched by a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, and laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical and mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, and laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical and mental.

Now the well-instructed noble disciple, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast of become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed noble disciple does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental. (From “Sallatha Sutta: The Second Arrow” SN 36.6, translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, June 7, 2009.)

I don’t think the point is to deaden yourself emotionally, but to avoid letting things metastasize, so to speak. If you’re hurt, feel the hurt, but don’t dwell on it, or take it out on other people which would then cause more difficulties and strife, etc.

41 CuriousLurker  Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:01:25am

re: #38 jonhendry

I think the problem comes in when that religious analgesia is an enabler, and gets in the way of someone taking the steps that could actually improve their life.

Fair enough. I can agree with that, but in this particular case I didn’t get the impression that any of the people mentioned were using it in that way.

re: #40 jonhendry

Thanks for the info. I’ve always found Buddhism interesting, similar to the more practical forms of Sufism.


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YOUR HONOR Trailer (2020) Bryan Cranston New SeriesYOUR HONOR Trailer (2020) Bryan Cranston New Series© 2020 - Showtime
Thanos
5 days, 6 hours ago
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LOVE and MONSTERS Trailer (2020) Dylan O’Brien, Jessica Henwick MovieLOVE AND MONSTERS Trailer (2020) Dylan O'Brien, Jessica Henwick Movie© 2020 - Paramount
Thanos
5 days, 6 hours ago
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Yusuf / Cat Stevens - Father and Son From Tea for the Tillerman Remake SUBSCRIBE yusufcatstevens.lnk.to and ENABLE 🔔 The official video for ‘Father & Son’ by Yusuf / Cat Stevens. Directed by director Chris Hopewell, Jacknife Films and Black Dog Film. Order Tea For The Tillerman 2 here: catstevens.lnk.to Listen to Father ...
Thanos
6 days, 1 hour ago
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