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1 freetoken  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 5:24:48pm

There are several errors in the quoted text.

E.g.,

Another “rogue” lineage in Iceland is the Mitochondrial DNA (X chromosome) C1E …

The X chromosome is a nuclear chromosome. Mitochondrial DNA is from the mitochondria, and is not from the X chromosome.

Also, the girls pictured story is well known. Their parents have not-too distant admixture of Africans and Europeans. It is not accurate to label their mother “white” and their father as “black”. Both had mixed ancestry. The long shot regarding the alleles for pigmentation is because there are several points in the DNA which is responsible, and the light colored daughter got the low probability case where she inherited from her darker father his minor alleles for low pigmentation.

Among the many mysteries are the reported presence of Y-chromosome Q at a high level in Iceland and Norway.

First off, “Q” is in reference to the Y haplogroup in the human Y clade. Haplogroup Q is rare in Iceland and Norway. More importantly, these higher level haplogroups for the Y are very old, and can be from very long paths of descent over hundreds and thousands of years from a one-off event a long time ago.

Certainly there are problems with contemporary racists trying to exploit genetics for their own nefarious ends.

And, old-fashioned racists can be shown to be quite far from what is known about H. sapiens as illustrated by genetics.

There is a whole lot to be written on this, and a couple of years back I had started an outline to touch on the crossroads of genetics and racism. It’s a big topic, and several of the more prominent bloggers on this topic have dodgy backgrounds, something nearly everyone seems to want to overlook.

2 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 5:27:54pm

re: #1 freetoken

There are several errors in the quoted text.

E.g.,

The X chromosome is a nuclear chromosome. Mitochondrial DNA is from the mitochondria, and is not from the X chromosome.

Also, the girls pictured story is well known. Their parents have not-too distant admixture of Africans and Europeans. It is not accurate to label their mother “white” and their father as “black”. Both had mixed ancestry. The long shot regarding the alleles for pigmentation is because there are several points in the DNA which is responsible, and the light colored daughter got the low probability case where she inherited from her darker father his minor alleles for low pigmentation.

First off, “Q” is in reference to the Y haplogroup in the human Y clade. Haplogroup Q is rare in Iceland and Norway. More importantly, these higher level haplogroups for the Y are very old, and can be from very long paths of descent over hundreds and thousands of years from a one-off event a long time ago.

Certainly there are problems with contemporary racists trying to exploit genetics for their own nefarious ends.

And, old-fashioned racists can be shown to be quite far from what is known about H. sapiens as illustrated by genetics.

There is a whole lot to be written on this, and a couple of years back I had started an outline to touch on the crossroads of genetics and racism. It’s a big topic, and several of the more prominent bloggers on this topic have dodgy backgrounds, something nearly everyone seems to want to overlook.

Time for you to start a series on genetics like Obdi is doing with stats perhaps?

I’d like to see it.

3 freetoken  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 6:12:51pm

re: #2 b_sharp

I’d like to see it.

Well, I’m not an expert by any means on genetics. I know what I know by reading everything from blogs to journal papers, which makes me well-read, but still hardly an expert.

There is a cross-over with evolution politics, as genetics has shown more clearly than ever that old belief systems are just wrong.

Racism is clearly not going away any time soon; fascinating thing about genetics is that it cuts both ways - while demolishing old fashioned views of race, new ones get created.

“Eugenics” is a scare word, used mostly by the creationist religious right, but some leftists are using it now too to fight against genetic engineering or even genetic testing.

I have no doubt, none at all, that though selective breeding and genetic engineering (a.k.a. “editing”) we could change (note I wrote “change”, not “improve”) the population of H. sapiens into something different than what we are today.

And that possibility scares people.

4 Snarknado!  Sat, Mar 29, 2014 8:43:34pm

I also saw a story, about 30 years ago, of another pair of biracial twins — in that case, one parent was white, the other wa a child of one white and one black parent. I’ve sometimes wondered what became of them.

5 freetoken  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 2:27:22am

Some of you may be interested in reading this:

Abusing Heritability: “Libertarian Realist” Edition (Part II)

6 freetoken  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 2:34:10am

Another one, from last week in the CJR, which is causing harrumphing among the “race realists”:

In Research Involving Genome Analysis, Some See a ‘New Racism’

7 palmerskiss  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 3:02:35am

re: #3 freetoken

Well, I’m not an expert by any means on genetics. I know what I know by reading everything from blogs to journal papers, which makes me well-read, but still hardly an expert.

There is a cross-over with evolution politics, as genetics has shown more clearly than ever that old belief systems are just wrong.

Racism is clearly not going away any time soon; fascinating thing about genetics is that it cuts both ways - while demolishing old fashioned views of race, new ones get created.

“Eugenics” is a scare word, used mostly by the creationist religious right, but some leftists are using it now too to fight against genetic engineering or even genetic testing.

I have no doubt, none at all, that though selective breeding and genetic engineering (a.k.a. “editing”) we could change (note I wrote “change”, not “improve”) the population of H. sapiens into something different than what we are today.

And that possibility scares people.

thank you for providing the extra info

8 palmerskiss  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 12:37:56pm

re: #5 freetoken

in relation to your extra context - i found this when i was running some research:

“Andrew Oh-Willeke said…
Wow!

Given the evidence that there were multiple layers of pre-Columbian population replacement known to have taken place in Artic North America, the notion that there might have been an mtDNA haplogroup C1e in Greenland in the 10th century that is now extinct, outside of Iceland isn’t implausible.

The article is behind a paywall so it is hard to tell how many Icelanders this involves.

If there are just four women with this trait in 1700 in Iceland, give or take a few, another possible source would be early post-Columbian contact at sea with the Americas, for example with individuals who joined crews or were brought hoome as wives following port calls in connection with the whaling trade, perhaps from North American tribes that were basically extinguished early in the early colonization process on Northeast North America. You really need to be able to trace at least one of the matrilines back another two hundred years to be very definitive about a pre-Columbian source.

One could also, I suspect, infer a minimum expected percentage of C1e from a single woman’s descendants based on the population of Iceland in 1000 CE v. 1600 CE as a hypothesis test to see if either possibility is ruled out or strongly favored over the other.

If there were an Asian source, you would expect some sort of trace appearances of mtDNA C1e somewhere in the expanse all across Arctic Eurasia or Atlantic Europe by now, so that seems considerably less likely as a source.

“The vast majority of contemporary females (58,832 or 91.7%) are descended from only 22% (7,041) of the potential matrilineal ancestors born between 1848 and 1892, and most contemporary males (57,686 or 86.2%) are descended from only 26% (8,275) of the potential patrilineal ancestors. The results are even more striking for matrilines and patrilines traced back to the 1698-1742 ancestor cohort. Because of the decay of genealogical information as we go further back in time, a greater proportion of the contemporary cohort could not be successfully traced back to ancestors. However, 62% (39,615) of contemporary females are descended from only 6.6% (1,356) of the potential matrilineal ancestors born between 1698-1742 and 71% (47,335) of contemporary males are descended from only 10.3% (1,859) of the potential patrilineal ancestors. The higher percentage of patrilineal links to the 1698-1742 ancestor cohort results from a more comprehensive recording of paternity in early Icelandic historical sources (a consequence of male bias in most historical documents).”

The Y-DNA Q data are restated here, and don’t necessarily point to a North American link, although key Y-DNA markers on this score were not tested. There is also indication in the literature that some Y-DNA R1 types are actually Q but not detected since the test wasn’t capable of resolving the two different Y-DNA types

and the link he provided is -

9 palmerskiss  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 12:40:30pm

re: #5 freetoken

Some of you may be interested in reading this:

Abusing Heritability: “Libertarian Realist” Edition (Part II)

interesting read… if you can get past his spelling and grammar issues it makes for interesting reading. who is this “libertarian realist”?

10 freetoken  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 3:29:59pm

re: #9 palmerskiss

I don’t know who the “Libertarian Realist” is, but I thought the refutation of said’s claim at the link I provided was a good example at how some are pushing back against the neo-racists.

11 palmerskiss  Sun, Mar 30, 2014 3:34:46pm

re: #10 freetoken

I don’t know who the “Libertarian Realist” is, but I thought the refutation of said’s claim at the link I provided was a good example at how some are pushing back against the neo-racists.

why do they think if they couch their ‘neo-racism’ in ‘genetics’ it makes it any less racist? the ‘bell curve’ is a perfect example of this.

i appreciate all the extra context - because this issue - the genetics of race - is outside most peoples understanding of genetics.

12 DannyRoscoe  Mon, Mar 31, 2014 7:09:39pm

Most journalists don’t hold PhDs on every topic they write, and that world moves fast. In addition, translating scientific language into a text friendly for a general audience in order to not lose the vast majority of readers is a huge task. However, articles such as this one will hopefully inspire scholars to take these tasks on and explore those topics on similar grounds. Published papers on human migrations and anthropology are perhaps what’s needed to lower the swords of discrimination.


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