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15 comments

1
Jayleia  Oct 22, 2015 • 9:06:52am

Oh god…is it too far to say that what Netanyahu was saying was about as bad as the blood libel?

2
CriticalDragon1177  Oct 22, 2015 • 9:19:08am

re: #1 Jayleia

Seems pretty bad. It was still extremely insensitive of him, and he really should have known better. Hitler wanted to get rid of the Jews even before he gain power. He clearly didn’t need the Mufti or anyone to talk him into it when he become a dictator. Hitler even started the killing before he met him. Demonizing the Palestinians by trying to link them to Holocaust is disgusting. Most ironically, and most shockingly Netanyahu has sort of become an apologist for Hitler by doing this, whether he realizes it or not.

3
I Stand With Planned Parenthood  Oct 22, 2015 • 10:45:19am

It’s a nice way for the White Power Whackos to separate themselves and HItler from the terrible atrocities that happened and continue to happen

4
CriticalDragon1177  Oct 22, 2015 • 11:07:56am

re: #3 I Stand With Planned Parenthood

And of course many of those white power wackos also hate Jews, in addition to their hatred of Arabs and Muslim. Some just happen to hate Arabs and Muslims more right now. Netanyahu isn’t doing himself any favors.

5
HappyWarrior  Oct 22, 2015 • 4:59:44pm

It’s disgusting what he’s doing. The fact of the matter is Hitler was as you say CD killing Jews long before Hitler met the Mufti. He outlined plans for killing Jews as early as the mid 20’s before he probably even heard of the man. And Hitler who famously ignored the advice of his generals wasn’t going to take orders from a foreign Muslim. Plus Bibi’s crap ignores the numerous other groups religious and ethnic that had people in them aid the Nazis. No one acts like Latvians should be denied rights and yet the Latvian Arajs Commando was involved in one of the biggest single incidents of mass murders of Jews during the war. The sad part is Bibi does know better but Bibi’s also a pondering asshole too. It really is disappointing that the Israeli people did not hand him an unemployment slip.

6
PeterWolf  Oct 22, 2015 • 9:01:59pm

It isn’t the first time, nor will it be the last time, that Bibi tells a blatant lie.

7
Aunty Entity Dragon  Oct 23, 2015 • 4:01:38am

Um…holy shit.

I have no idea how to even react to this.

8
CuriousLurker  Oct 23, 2015 • 9:16:46am

re: #5 HappyWarrior

He has no excuse for his lies. Netanyahu’s father Benzion was a historian who taught as a professor of Jewish history at Cornell. He was also a right-winger and follower of the militant Zionist Vladimir Jabotinsky, whom he served as a personal aide until Jabotinsky’s death in 1940. He was born in Warsaw in 1910 and died in 2012 in Israel at the age of 102, so he was alive through all the history his son is lying about.

Benzion Netanyahu was also an anti-Arab bigot of the first order and didn’t think the Palestinians should have a state because he claimed they are “imaginary” (as a people). From a 2009 interview:

Q: You don’t like the Arabs, to say the least.

A: “The bible finds no worse image than this of the man from the desert. And why? Because he has no respect for any law. Because in the desert he can do as he pleases. The tendency towards conflict is in the essence of the Arab. He is an enemy by essence. His personality won’t allow him any compromise or agreement. It doesn’t matter what kind of resistance he will meet, what price he will pay. His existence is one of perpetuate war.”

Q: Is there any hope of peace?

A: “Out of agreement? No. the other side might stay in peace if it understands that doing anything [else] will cause it enormous pain.

The two states solution doesn’t exist. There are no two people here. There is a Jewish people and an Arab population… there is no Palestinian people, so you don’t create a state for an imaginary nation… they only call themselves a people in order to fight the Jews.” […]

promisedlandblog.com

Given his father’s attitudes and the fact that his elder brother Yonatan was killed in 1976 during Operation Entebbe in Uganda, I’m not at all surprised at Netanyahu’s hatred of Palestinians and willingness to lie about them and his resistance to a two-state solution. Regardless, none of the above justifies or excuses his lie.

9
Nyet  Oct 23, 2015 • 1:14:09pm

I’m gonna get real nitpicky now, so skip this comment if you’re not into it. Disclaimer: I’m no more defending Netanyahu with this comment than I am defending the Mufti with this one. It’s only a matter of accuracy to me. I despise the guy for many reasons. But I will use the principle of interpretational charity regardless of my feelings.

When Netanyahu said “wanted”, I think that the reasonable interpretation is that he meant “intended”. Yes, Hitler theoretically wanted to kill Jews as early as the 1920s. Wanting and actually intending to do are different things. All the evidence points to the fact that as of August 1941 Hitler didn’t yet intend (as in, actually planned) the wholesale slaughter of European Jews, the fate of the Soviet Jews, a special case, notwithstanding. No, there is no credible evidence that the Mufti played any significant role in forming Hitler’s extermination decision. It’s in fact ridiculous to suggest that Hitler would have based such a decision on a mere suggestion of some foreign guy without any internal and (very important) external factors at play.
Nevertheless pretending that the Nazi (=Hitler’s) anti-Jewish policy stayed more or less the same and would inevitably lead to the Holocaust no matter what is ahistorical. The resettlement plans had, initially, been real. So this particular part of Netanyahu’s statement is perhaps the least problematic.

10
Skandal  Oct 23, 2015 • 9:43:18pm

re: #9 Nyet

According to what I’ve read the Final Solution was debated (expulsion versus extermination) until January 20, 1942 when the participants at the Wannsee Conference agreed upon which method to implement.

11
Nyet  Oct 24, 2015 • 12:57:00am

re: #10 Skandal

According to what I’ve read the Final Solution was debated (expulsion versus extermination) until January 20, 1942 when the participants at the Wannsee Conference agreed upon which method to implement.

At the Wannsee conference they were discussing how to better implement the already existing, “crystallized” decision.

Historians debate when it was taken. The more credible versions put the date somewhere between early October and mid-December 1941.

The events of October, which left traces in documents and some testimonies, show that things began to change rapidly as far as the Jewish policy was concerned, with certain indications pointing to a change from resettlement to extermination. Which is why Christopher Browning argues for October.

Christian Gerlach, on the other hand, argues for mid-December, which has to do with the US’ entry into the war. Notably, the Wannsee conference was to take place in December but was rescheduled because of this, and Hitler announced a decision to punish the Jews for the new World War (referring to his 1939 “prophecy”) in no uncertain terms on Dec. 12 in a circle of key Nazi figures. Taken together these two pieces of evidence signify to Gerlach that it was then when the policy finally took the turn in the most radical direction.

Whoever is right, it is clear that the “Final Solution” was the result of a continuous, incremental development of the Nazi Jewish policy (with Oct.-Dec. ‘41 being the key months), with many smaller interim decisions and policy changes that became more and more radical. It started with absurdist, but nevertheless “serious” contemplations about Madagascar, proceeded through the actual “resettlement to the East” phase and ended up with wholesale slaughter.

12
CuriousLurker  Oct 24, 2015 • 10:21:02am

re: #11 Nyet

Whoever is right, it is clear that the “Final Solution” was the result of a continuous, incremental development of the Nazi Jewish policy (with Oct.-Dec. ‘41 being the key months), with many smaller interim decisions and policy changes that became more and more radical. It started with absurdist, but nevertheless “serious” contemplations about Madagascar, proceeded through the actual “resettlement to the East” phase and ended up with wholesale slaughter.

That part right there is frightening… a sort of Kafka-esque metamorphosis, just slower.

13
Nyet  Oct 24, 2015 • 10:33:41am

re: #12 CuriousLurker

One of those “smaller” decisions was wholesale murder of the Soviet Jews, thought to be carriers of the Bolshevism bacillus and thus a special case even among the Jews in the Nazi eyes. And even this decision was a result of a certain evolution. At first the Nazis were killing mostly male Jews of a certain age (which goes against the hypothesis by Breitman et al. that the extermination decision had been taken in Jan.’41). Some interesting info about this is at motlc.wiesenthal.com

14
CuriousLurker  Oct 24, 2015 • 2:06:43pm

re: #13 Nyet

Wow, I didn’t know that the Nazis also considered Slavs to be inferior. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised as anyone who wasn’t Germanic/Aryan was deemed inferior, but it still caught me off guard.

You know what’s weird? How the wingnuts are always saying the Nazis were socialists (and therefore leftists) simply because they used the term “National Socialism” as a self description. How do they then explain why the Nazis hated and killed socialists & communists along with Jews & others, and were supported by capitalists like (Henry) Ford, GM, and Chase? It makes no sense. Since North Korea’s official name is the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea do they also believe that means it’s a democracy? Good grief.

15
Nyet  Oct 25, 2015 • 4:29:48am

re: #14 CuriousLurker

1. The Nazi plans assumed Germanization of a small part of the Slavic population, decimation of the rest by 20-30 million (e.g. through starvation) and deportation of the rest over the Ural mountains.

The anti-Slav propaganda included brochures like the infamous Der Untermensch (which was, strictly speaking, anti-Soviet, but basically branded the whole Soviet people subhuman, and most Soviets were Slavic - and were seen as such by the average German).

2. Personally, I wouldn’t use the argument that the Nazis weren’t socialists because they killed socialists. Note that Stalin killed hundreds of thousands of socialists and communists, incl. most Old Bolsheviks. Internecine warfare is almost a feature with these folks. And Catholics killing Protestants and vice versa doesn’t show that they are not Christians.

As for whether the Nazis were or weren’t socialists in some sense, I find the debate unproductive. They were a “third way”, conservative revolutionaries, blending both socialist and capitalist elements. They certainly used the opportunistic populist rhetoric - “socialist” and “anti-capitalist” for the workers, “conservative” for the well-off Bavarian bürgers, and the proportions of “socialistic” rhetoric certainly diminished with time. But suppose they were (non-Marxian) socialists. Then what? Aside from the fact that they would be a curious case of far-right socialists - nothing else follows.


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