re: #57 Obdicut

Why not? For example, black people didn’t have a party that actually represented them equally up until about the 1960s. They might have had individual politicians that were good or bad for them, but both parties were part and parcel of racist policies.

Do you think black people would have gained advancement in this country faster through principled non-participation? By never voting for either party, because of their compromised nature?

Perhaps, perhaps not. But a lot of changes made then seemed less about the *black vote* as they were about other factors. Never mind how hard it was (And seems to be moving back towards again) for them to vote in many places at the time.

This is the bit I don’t get. What does not voting get you? How do you not go over the cliff in this scenario?

I just see little value in supporting groups that really aren’t interested in being my allies, even if they won’t hurt me as badly. Hell, sometimes they can hurt me worse, since they have some degree of political cover.

His recent speeches have been pretty lefty-lefty. But anyway, he’s not really more ‘right’ than Clinton was. He’s definitely more pro-regulation on financial industries, for example.

The Overton Window is not something that’s real, you know. It describes an effect that can manifest sometimes, but it’s not the dominant framing device of all political thought.

Maybe if Obama staked out a stronger ‘left’ position, things would be better. Maybe not. A lot has actually happened under him, even with the GOP being massively obstructionist.

Part of my problem is the disconnect between his speeches and what the administration then ends up doing.

In regards to the Overton Window, I have to disagree, in part. Abortion, for example, is a topic where a very vocal and strong anti-choice movement has moved the country towards a more anti-choice position. If people are only exposed to ideas ranging from far right to center right, many people are, in fact, going to assume that’s the valid range for ideas that aren’t “extreme”. The working class was convinced that tax cuts for big business and the rich were in their best interests overnight.

Sure, some of this is just a reflection of the times, but it’s not all of it.

And I understand the GOP has basically prevented anything from happening, but this was a case where something actually could happen. A place to demonstrate some level of commitment to this sort of issue.