DC Sniper Executed

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The DC sniper was executed tonight.

Jarratt, VIRGINIA (Reuters) - John Allen Muhammad was executed on Tuesday for masterminding and carrying out with his teenage accomplice the 2002 sniper shootings that killed 10 people and terrified the Washington, D.C. region a year after the September 11 and the deadly anthrax attacks.

The 48-year-old Muhammad was put to death by lethal injection at the Greensville Correctional Center in Jarratt, Virginia, said Virginia Department of Corrections spokesman Larry Traylor.

“Death was pronounced at 9:11 pm. There were no complications. Mr. Muhammad was asked if he wished to make a last statement. He did not acknowledge us or make any statement whatsoever,” Traylor told reporters.

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481 comments
1 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:41:15pm

c’ya…wouldn’t want to be ya

2 TedStriker  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:42:58pm

Good riddance to bad rubbish…

3 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:43:33pm

actually it’s an ugly ending to a sordid, depressing, angry affair…this guy got what he deserved and it’s time to try and forge ahead…everybody loses

4 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:44:08pm

re: #1 albusteve

c’ya…wouldn’t want to be ya

Wesley Snipes comforts America, once again.
/super snark

5 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:44:41pm
“Death was pronounced at 9:11 pm…”

Intentional irony on the time?

6 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:44:48pm

Caesar has Extracted a Rightful Punishment. It is now the Judgment of G-d, however one believes or choses not to. That is all.

-S-

7 jaunte  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:45:05pm

In lieu of my own rustic thoughts, I’d like to quote the philosopher Guanxi88 from the previous thread:

“I hate that he chose an evil so extreme as to make his death at our hands the closest thing to atonement for it. That this beast and others like him compel us to destroy them in self-defense only deepens my disgust. That I learned from my grandfather, who, when I was a boy and asked him why he killed Japanese and German soldiers, said he did it because he hated them. When asked why he hated them, he answered it was because they forced him to kill them.”

8 TedStriker  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:45:41pm

re: #5 solomonpanting

Intentional irony on the time?

God has a sense of humor…and it was lost on John Allen Muhammed.

9 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:46:56pm

re: #7 jaunte

In lieu of my own rustic thoughts, I’d like to quote the philosopher Guanxi88 from the previous thread:

Thank you, Jaunte.

10 psyop  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:48:02pm

This guy was a poster child for expedited execution in extreme cases.

11 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:48:02pm

9-11 then the anthrax attacks and then these assholes not a year later.

12 jaunte  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:48:03pm

re: #9 Guanxi88

Thank you. Truly a necessary thought when we’re confronted with the need for an execution.

13 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:48:20pm

re: #10 psyop

This guy was a poster child for expedited execution in extreme cases.

Why was is so speedy?

14 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:50:11pm

re: #12 jaunte

Thank you. Truly a necessary thought when we’re confronted with the need for an execution.

This is why people need to remember that there is nothing in this world more dangerous than the fury of a civilized person or nation.

15 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:50:21pm

re: #7 jaunte

I have to agree. I’m feeling a bit revolted at the moment and wasn’t sure why, but now I know… crimes so heinous that death is justice, and it’s deserved. Thank you for reposting that, and thank you Guanxi.

16 drool  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:50:40pm

Shoulda been a firing squad.

17 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:50:46pm

re: #11 MandyManners

9-11 then the anthrax attacks and then these assholes not a year later.

That’s how I remembered it. No sooner than after 911 this nut came along. It was almost shocking to the system.

18 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:51:13pm

Okay, I’m starting to gain self-respect and that feeling - what is it? the opposite of shame? - so I gotta go.

19 psyop  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:51:17pm

re: #13 MandyManners

Why was is so speedy?

Alas, I was not clear (damn you, grasp of the english language!).

What I meant was, it is a shame that it took so long for this outcome, and if I could point to any recent examples of what I considered an extreme case that deserved and expedited process, John Allen Muhammad would be first on that list.

20 abolitionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:51:45pm

re: #13 MandyManners

Why was is so speedy?

Other states could have pressed prosecutions, but refrained.

21 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:52:11pm

re: #17 Gus 802

That’s how I remembered it. No sooner than after 911 this nut came along. It was almost shocking to the system.

Almost?!

22 jaunte  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:52:49pm

re: #13 MandyManners

Ginsburg and Sotomayor’s dissent blamed Virginia’s appeals process:
[Link: www2.timesdispatch.com…]

23 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:52:55pm

re: #19 psyop

Alas, I was not clear (damn you, grasp of the english language!).

What I meant was, it is a shame that it took so long for this outcome, and if I could point to any recent examples of what I considered an extreme case that deserved and expedited process, John Allen Muhammad would be first on that list.

What I meant is that there have been—and are—cases where the execution took many, many years.

24 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:53:27pm

re: #20 abolitionist

Other states could have pressed prosecutions, but refrained.

Seeing how Virginia is the No. 2 execution state, that was a wise move.

25 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:53:29pm

re: #21 MandyManners

Almost?!

It was a shock. I have a weird habit of adding passive modifiers.

26 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:54:01pm

re: #22 jaunte

Ginsburg and Sotomayor’s dissent blamed Virginia’s appeals process:
[Link: www2.timesdispatch.com…]

Well, due process was observed.

27 Idle Drifter  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:54:06pm

re: #17 Gus 802

That’s how I remembered it. No sooner than after 911 this nut came along. It was almost shocking to the system.

It also proved that you don’t need some elaborate scheme to keep a nation terrorized just a man with a rifle. It’s the lesson that keeps repeating itself.

28 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:54:23pm

re: #16 drool

Shoulda been a firing squad.

drool -

A Firing Squad - a la Che - with a coup de grace - is faster and less painful than lethal injection. Keep that in mind.

-S-

29 Racer X  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:54:29pm

This guy was total asshole. I heard an interview with his ex-wife the other day. Good riddance.

30 kobra_55  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:54:32pm

Not sure if lethal injection is more humane than a firing squad, hanging, or beheading…maybe more humane for those in attendance at the execution.

Either way, even most stalwart opponents of the death penalty had a hard time finding a reason to delay this case. Heinous all the way around.

31 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:54:34pm

re: #25 Gus 802

It was a shock. I have a weird habit of adding passive modifiers.

I was living in Denver but, I was still freaked out.

32 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:54:58pm

re: #29 Racer X

This guy was total asshole. I heard an interview with his ex-wife the other day. Good riddance.

What was marriage to him like?

33 psyop  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:55:16pm

re: #23 MandyManners

What I meant is that there have been—and are—cases where the execution took many, many years.

Ah, yes. You are most certainly correct in that. I am grateful it didn’t take longer than it did.

34 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:55:41pm

re: #3 albusteve

actually it’s an ugly ending to a sordid, depressing, angry affair…this guy got what he deserved and it’s time to try and forge ahead…everybody loses

Negatomic. Justice was done, and that means something to the families of the victims.

35 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:56:56pm

re: #31 MandyManners

I was living in Denver but, I was still freaked out.

It was hard to fathom at first. Who in the world was out there sniping people at random. Later when I found out the method such as shooting from the trunk of his car and then having that teenage accomplice.

36 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:57:59pm

Too bad the punk in the trunk didn’t get the needle too.

37 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:58:11pm

am reflexively anti the death penalty.

someone with such scant regard for human life is not best punished through more killing being perpetrated by anyone.

it’s the law - thats unfortunate - but “vengence is mine sayeth the lord”, the good Christians of the commonwealth should remember that.


just my 2cents.

38 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:58:28pm

He was sentenced to six life-terms in Maryland. I, for one, am not sorry Virginia’s sentence was undertaken first.

39 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:58:44pm

re: #34 The Sanity Inspector

Negatomic. Justice was done, and that means something to the families of the victims.

Negatomic -

Justice, in this world, was done - beyond the victims and their families - it means that there is in a theoretically civilized society a POINT BEYOND WHICH with which we WILL NOT PUT. That is all.

-S-

40 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:59:03pm

I generally don’t support the death penalty because I don’t think it’s the proper role of the state to kill its own citizens. That said, this one doesn’t bother me a whole lot.

41 kobra_55  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:59:31pm

re: #40 Conservative Moonbat

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

42 Idle Drifter  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:59:33pm

re: #36 Spare O’Lake

I believe he testified against John Mohammad to avoid the death penalty.

43 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:00:11pm

re: #40 Conservative Moonbat

I generally don’t support the death penalty because I don’t think it’s the proper role of the state to kill its own citizens. That said, this one doesn’t bother me a whole lot.

Why is this different?

44 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:00:29pm

re: #7 jaunte

In lieu of my own rustic thoughts, I’d like to quote the philosopher Guanxi88 from the previous thread:

thank you Jaunte and Gauxi88 -
I cannot ‘celebrate’ the death of a person, even one who committed acts as evil as the ones this guy committed.

The man was tried, the punishment was decided, and it has been carried out. Enough.

45 HoosierHoops  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:00:32pm

re: #16 drool

Shoulda been a firing squad.

No..Because he caused death by a firing squad..
We brought justice by the State by measuring his life by the day, the minute and the very second of his death…For a long period of time he faced our justice living in terror..And no Court of America could save him…
He watched every tick of the clock until his demise.. It is the least we could do for the Victim of his crimes…They deserved no less.

46 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:00:40pm

re: #31 MandyManners

I was living in Denver but, I was still freaked out.

I reside a two days drive away from the scenes of the shootings. My wife still didn’t want me going out for a stroll around the neighborhood.

47 lostlakehiker  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:01:14pm

Waiting in the wings, Mr. Hasan gulps.

48 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:01:31pm

re: #40 Conservative Moonbat

I generally don’t support the death penalty because I don’t think it’s the proper role of the state to kill its own citizens. That said, this one doesn’t bother me a whole lot.

Some crimes go so far as to warrant it. I personally can’t wait for one.

49 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:02:16pm

Let’s make a toast with O’Doul’s beer
And welcome John Muhammed here
Wake his mother and ring the bell
It’s Christmas time in Hell!

Liveleak Video
50 Summer Seale  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:02:42pm

I think we should have ripped out his living heart and offered it to the Sun God.

But that’s just me. =)

51 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:03:20pm

A BYTE OUT OF HISTORY
The Beltway Snipers, Part 1

October 2: Man killed while crossing a parking lot in Wheaton, Maryland
October 3: Five more murders, four in Maryland and one in D.C.
October 4: Woman wounded while loading her van at Spotsylvania Mall
October 7: 13-year-old-boy wounded at a school in Bowie, Maryland
October 9: Man murdered near Manassas, Virginia, while pumping gas
October 11: Man shot dead near Fredericksburg, Virginia, while pumping gas
October 14: FBI analyst Linda Franklin killed near Falls Church, Virginia
October 19: Man wounded outside a steakhouse in Ashland, Virginia
October 22: A bus driver, the final victim, killed in Aspen Hill, Maryland
October 24: Muhammad and Malvo arrested in Maryland

52 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:03:26pm

re: #50 Summer

my norse side believes it’s nice to see a traditionalist about the place…

53 jaunte  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:03:32pm

re: #40 Conservative Moonbat

I generally don’t support the death penalty because I don’t think it’s the proper role of the state to kill its own citizens.

On the other hand, I think one of the minimum requirements for citizenship should be that one refrains from murder.

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:03:45pm

re: #16 drool

Shoulda been a firing squad.

Not worth it.

55 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:04:41pm

re: #43 solomonpanting

Why is this different?

The particularly heinous nature of the crime.

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:05:00pm

re: #17 Gus 802

That’s how I remembered it. No sooner than after 911 this nut came along. It was almost shocking to the system.

It all blurs into one long adrenaline rush, as I remember it. That and the anthrax.

57 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:05:22pm
58 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:05:25pm

re: #55 Conservative Moonbat

The particularly heinous nature of the crime.

What about Tim McVie? Same?

59 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:05:25pm

re: #36 Spare O’Lake

Too bad the punk in the trunk didn’t get the needle too.

Spare O’ Lake -

The “TRUNK PUNK” was theoretically a “JUVIE” when convicted. Would have made Execution much harder. I am sure, however, that he was squeezed “like a lemon” for his testimony. May he NEVER see daylight as a free man.
If it is good enough for Sirhan-Sirhan - it is good enough for Malvo.

-S-

60 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:06:31pm

re: #29 Racer X

This guy was total asshole. I heard an interview with his ex-wife the other day. Good riddance.

Here’s video of an interview with his sister-in-law.
You’ll probably have to get through a cheesy local ad first.

61 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:06:54pm

the whole thing is ugly…now his life is over…let it be and move on

62 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:07:11pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

It all blurs into one long adrenaline rush, as I remember it. That and the anthrax.

They were very sad times. Especially when thinking about looking at the victims of 911 during that time. Thinking about what happened in OKC, Columbine, and more recently Fort Hood and Virginia Tech.

63 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:07:48pm

Will there be a fatwah against Virginia now? You know, because they killed Muhammad?

//

64 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:08:35pm

re: #59 Dr. Shalit

Spare O’ Lake -

The “TRUNK PUNK” was theoretically a “JUVIE” when convicted. Would have made Execution much harder. I am sure, however, that he was squeezed “like a lemon” for his testimony. May he NEVER see daylight as a free man.
If it is good enough for Sirhan-Sirhan - it is good enough for Malvo.

-S-

I hope he really is being treated like a “punk” in prison.

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:09:15pm

re: #50 Summer

I think we should have ripped out his living heart and offered it to the Sun God.

But that’s just me. =)

I’m an old-fashioned girl. Burning in a wicker basket would have suited me just fine.

66 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:10:41pm

re: #52 wozzablog

my norse side believes it’s nice to see a traditionalist about the place…

Norse? Then the Blood Eagle rite is more appropriate.

67 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:11:12pm

re: #64 Mad Al-Jaffee

Al -

No Comment. Silence is Golden.

-S-

68 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:12:28pm

re: #58 solomonpanting

What about Tim McVie? Same?

Pretty much. While I’d rather it not be used at all for purely philosophical reasons, there are cases where I don’t find myself particularly bothered by it either.

I didn’t mean to turn this thread into a capital punishment debate btw and if it does turn into one I’m backing out.

69 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:12:59pm

re: #62 Gus 802

They were very sad times. Especially when thinking about looking at the victims of 911 during that time. Thinking about what happened in OKC, Columbine, and more recently Fort Hood and Virginia Tech.

No one remembers the other “big one”, just down the street from Fort Hood:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

70 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:13:41pm

What can I say.

I’m not sorry —he made his choices, he knew the risk.

I only hope this brings some closure to the family of his victims.

71 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:14:04pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

It all blurs into one long adrenaline rush, as I remember it. That and the anthrax.

Remember what a fix it put the band of the same name in? Scott Ian said it was as if “it’s 1937 and I’m a band leader named Freddy Hitler”.

72 ulmsey123  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:14:34pm

Goin’ to that great big Red Bay Snook in the sky.

73 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:14:44pm

re: #69 austin_blue

No one remembers the other “big one”, just down the street from Fort Hood:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

There are many.

74 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:14:52pm

re: #68 Conservative Moonbat

Pretty much. While I’d rather it not be used at all for purely philosophical reasons, there are cases where I don’t find myself particularly bothered by it either.

I didn’t mean to turn this thread into a capital punishment debate btw and if it does turn into one I’m backing out.

A debate on LGF? Surely, you jest.

75 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:14:55pm

re: #66 The Sanity Inspector

As a generallity i find it reassuring people are still into the old, old, old, old, old time religions. Before the whippersnappers came along with their hoity-toity monotheism.


;-)

76 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:15:23pm

re: #69 austin_blue

No one remembers the other “big one”, just down the street from Fort Hood:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I saw an interview with Susanna Hupp regarding her 2nd Amendment activism as a result of this tragedy.

77 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:16:11pm

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m an old-fashioned girl. Burning in a wicker basket would have suited me just fine.

Sorry, if we are going to engage in one-upmanship grotesquery about a grotesque act of the State, I’ll wait for the next thread. Lock ‘em up for life and a day and let ‘em rot.

78 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:16:46pm

What, not even an “allahu akhbar” to grease his way to the virgins?

You can be sure, if I know in advance the time of my death and that someone will report my words, I’ll have stored up something pissy pithy to say.

79 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:16:52pm

re: #73 Gus 802

There are many.

San Ysidro.

80 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:17:21pm

re: #79 The Sanity Inspector

San Ysidro.

22

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

81 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:18:24pm

good night everyone.

may Odin bestow assorted blessings and Loci stay far from your door.

82 jaunte  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:18:30pm

re: #69 austin_blue

No one remembers the other “big one”, just down the street from Fort Hood:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

And another slightly more to the south:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

83 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:19:20pm

re: #74 MandyManners

A debate on LGF? Surely, you jest.

Don’t call them Shirley.

84 jaunte  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:19:27pm

re: #81 wozzablog

good night everyone.
may Odin bestow assorted blessings

We’ll keep an eye out for him.

85 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:19:44pm

re: #73 Gus 802

There are many.

Gus 802 -

And since then Governor GWB signed the “Shall Issue” permit law, how many such incidents in the Texas Civilian World? Just asking, anybody know?
Otherwise, just “Blame It on Bush” - everybody else does.

-S-

86 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:21:35pm

re: #59 Dr. Shalit

Spare O’ Lake -

The “TRUNK PUNK” was theoretically a “JUVIE” when convicted. Would have made Execution much harder. I am sure, however, that he was squeezed “like a lemon” for his testimony. May he NEVER see daylight as a free man.
If it is good enough for Sirhan-Sirhan - it is good enough for Malvo.

-S-

I can live with it, but I believe mass murderers deserve to die.

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:22:10pm

re: #77 austin_blue

Sorry, if we are going to engage in one-upmanship grotesquery about a grotesque act of the State, I’ll wait for the next thread. Lock ‘em up for life and a day and let ‘em rot.

Sorry. Not very good jokes about human sacrifice.

88 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:23:02pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

Sorry. Not very good jokes about human sacrifice.

Good thing I didn’t bring up the plastic garland. /

89 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:23:45pm

This thread’s not gonna make it to 300.

90 researchok  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:25:14pm

re: #89 The Sanity Inspector

This thread’s not gonna make it to 300.

Neither will I- and I’ve been eating cheesecake all evening.

91 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:25:36pm

re: #51 Gus 802

October 9: Man murdered near Manassas, Virginia, while pumping gas

That was alarmingly close to where I live. I remember that like it was yesterday.

92 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:25:42pm

re: #89 The Sanity Inspector

heres your problem…

93 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:27:46pm

re: #82 jaunte

And another slightly more to the south:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

He lived on Jewell street, just south of me. Killed his mom at her apartment and then his wife (in the front bedroom of their house). At around ten in the morning, the mailman came by. Charlie was sawing the barrel off of a shotgun near his garage. They exchanged pleasantries. Then Charlie packed up his guns and went to school.

Sheesh. Everything appeared perfectly normal to the mailman. Charlie was lucid and nice. The mailman didn’t even wonder why Charlie was sawing the barrel off the shotgun. Whatever! But at that point, Charlie was just as crazy as a shit house mouse.

94 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:27:54pm

re: #86 Spare O’Lake

I can live with it, but I believe mass murderers deserve to die.

Even impressionable minors who are groomed to commit the crime by a controlling adult?

I don’t remember too many of the details of this case, but I’m pretty sure that was the deal.

The fact that he was a minor alone should be enough to get the death penalty off the table in any circumstance, but it’s not. Capital punishment for crimes committed by minors is just barbaric.

95 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:28:18pm

re: #83 Sharmuta

Don’t call them Shirley.

Roger, Roger.

96 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:28:52pm

re: #77 austin_blue

Sorry, if we are going to engage in one-upmanship grotesquery about a grotesque act of the State, I’ll wait for the next thread. Lock ‘em up for life and a day and let ‘em rot.

There is no crime so terrible you wouldn’t find the death penalty warranted?

97 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:29:12pm

re: #94 Conservative Moonbat

Even impressionable minors who are groomed to commit the crime by a controlling adult?

I don’t remember too many of the details of this case, but I’m pretty sure that was the deal.

The fact that he was a minor alone should be enough to get the death penalty off the table in any circumstance, but it’s not. Capital punishment for crimes committed by minors is just barbaric.

Seventeen is old enough to make a choice.

98 Van Helsing  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:30:25pm

And there was much rejoicing.

99 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:31:34pm

re: #90 researchok

Neither will I- and I’ve been eating cheesecake all evening.

That’s not your stomach rumbling, it’s your arteries whimpering.

100 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:31:45pm

Michel Foucault on the way it used to be:

On 1 March 1757 Damiens the regicide was condemned “to make the amende honorable before the main door of the Church of Paris”, where he was to be “taken and conveyed in a cart, wearing nothing but a shirt, holding a torch of burning wax weighing two pounds”; then, “in the said cart, to the Place de Grève, where, on a scaffold that will be erected there, the flesh will be torn from his breasts, arms, thighs and calves with red-hot pincers, his right hand, holding the knife with which he committed the said parricide, burnt with sulphur, and, on those places where the flesh will be torn away, poured molten lead, boiling oil, burning resin, wax and sulphur melted together and then his body drawn and quartered by four horses and his limbs and body consumed by fire, reduced to ashes and his ashes thrown to the winds” (Pièces originales…, 372-4).

“Finally, he was quartered,” recounts the Gazette d’Amsterdam of 1 April 1757. “This last operation was very long, because the horses used were not accustomed to drawing; consequently, instead of four, six were needed; and when that did not suffice, they were forced, in order to cut off the wretch’s thighs, to sever the sinews and hack at the joints…

“It is said that, though he was always a great swearer, no blashemy escaped his lips; but the excessive pain made him utter horrible cries, and he often repeated: ‘My God, have pity on me! Jesus, help me!’ The spectators were all edified by the solicitude of the parish priest of St Paul’s who despite his great age did not spare himself in offering consolation to the patient.”

Bouton, an officer of the watch, left us his account: “The sulphur was lit, but the flame was so poor that only the top skin of the hand was burnt, and that only slightly. Then the executioner, his sleeves rolled up, took the steel pincers, which had been especially made for the occasion, and which were about a foot and a half long, and pulled first at the calf of the right leg, then at the thigh, and from there at the two fleshy parts of the right arm; then at the breasts. Though a strong, sturdy fellow, this executioner found it so difficult to tear away the pieces of flesh that he set about the same spot two or three times, twisting the pincers as he did so, and what he took away formed at each part a wound about the size of a six-pound crown piece.

“After these tearings with the pincers, Damiens, who cried out profusely, though without swearing, raised his head and looked at himself; the same executioner dipped an iron spoon in the pot containing the boiling potion, which he poured liberally over each wound. Then the ropes that were to be harnessed to the horses were attached with cords to the patient’s body; the horses were then harnessed and placed alongside the arms and legs, one at each limb.

“Monsieur Le Breton, the clerk of the court, went up to the patient several times and asked him if he had anything to say. He said he had not; at each torment, he cried out, as the damned in hell are supposed to cry out, ‘Pardon, my God! Pardon, my Lord.’ Despite all this pain, he raised his head from time to time and looked at himself boldly. The cords had been tied so tightly by the men who pulled the ends that they caused him indescribable pain. Monsieur le [sic] Breton went up to him again and asked him if he had anything to say; he said no. Several confessors went up to him and spoke to him at length; he willingly kissed the crucifix that was held out to him; he opened his lips and repeated: ‘Pardon, Lord.’

[cont.]

101 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:32:12pm

[cont.]

“The horses tugged hard, each pulling straight on a limb, each horse held by an executioner. After a quarter of an hour, the same ceremony was repeated and finally, after several attempts, the direction of the horses had to be changed, thus: those at the arms were made to pull towards the head, those at the thighs towards the arms, which broke the arms at the joints. This was repeated several times without success. He raised his head and looked at himself. Two more horses had to be added to those harnessed to the thighs, which made six horses in all. Without success.

“Finally, the executioner, Samson, said to Monsieur Le Breton that there was no way or hope of succeeding, and told him to ask their Lordships if they wished him to have the prisoner cut into pieces. Monsieur Le Breton, who had come down from the town, ordered that renewed efforts be made, and this was done; but the horses gave up and one of those harnessed to the thighs fell to the ground. The confessors returned and spoke to him again. He said to them (I heard him): ‘Kiss me, gentlemen.’ The parish priest of St Paul’s did not dare to, so Monsieur de Marsilly slipped under the rope holding the left arm and kissed him on the forehead. The executioners gathered round and Damiens told them not to swear, to carry out their task and that he did not think ill of them; he begged them to pray to God for him, and asked the parish priest of St Paul’s to pray for him at the first mass.

“After two or three attempts, the executioner Samson and he who had used the pincers each drew out a knife from his pocket and cut the body at the thighs instead of severing the legs at the joints; the four horses gave a tug and carried off the two thighs after them, namely, that of the right side first, the other following; then the same was done to the arms, the shoulders, the arm-pits and the four limbs; the flesh had to be cut almost to the bone, the horses pulling hard carried off the right arm first and the other afterwards.

“When the four limbs had been pulled away, the confessors came to speak to him; but his executioner told them that he was dead, though the truth was that I saw the man move, his lower jaw moving from side to side as if he were talking. One of the executioners even said shortly afterwards that when they had lifted the trunk to throw it on the stake, he was still alive. The four limbs were untied from the ropes and thrown on the stake set up in the enclosure in line with the scaffold, then the trunk and the rest were covered with logs and faggots, and fire was put to the straw mixed with this wood.

“…In accordance with the decree, the whole was reduced to ashes. The last piece to be found in the embers was still burning at half-past ten in the evening. The pieces of flesh and the trunk had taken about four hours to burn. The officers of whom I was one, as also was my son, and a detachment of archers remained in the square until nearly eleven o’clock.

“There were those who made something of the fact that a dog had lain the day before on the grass where the fire had been, had been chased away several times, and had always returned. But it is not difficult to understand that an animal found this place warmer than elsewhere” (quoted in Zevaes, 201-14).

Just sayin’.

102 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:32:34pm

It’s not like the consequences of the crime were not well known —no suprise. If you get caught you will be facing the death penalty.

Pretty simple to me. The Criminal made a choice. He took the risk and lost.

103 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:33:27pm

re: #94 Conservative Moonbat

Even impressionable minors who are groomed to commit the crime by a controlling adult?

I don’t remember too many of the details of this case, but I’m pretty sure that was the deal.

The fact that he was a minor alone should be enough to get the death penalty off the table in any circumstance, but it’s not. Capital punishment for crimes committed by minors is just barbaric.

Malvo was 17, so he was eligible to be sentenced as an adult.
He was old enough to know better, was not insane and was a mass murderer.

104 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:33:52pm

re: #97 MandyManners

Seventeen is old enough to make a choice.

At seventeen and a half, people can join the Marines.

105 Dreader1962  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:35:51pm

I was in the DC area during the time and saw the effect on my friends and co-workers. It was definitely terror and could have gone on for much longer than it did.

Justice has been done. The inevitability of his sentence should send a message to anyone who would ‘sympathize’ with this type of act that we have the will to go to the extremity of the death penalty after going through our legal due process. I hope that MAJ Hasan had the news on in his hospital room.

106 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:36:28pm

re: #103 Spare O’Lake

Malvo was 17, so he was eligible to be sentenced as an adult.
He was old enough to know better, was not insane and was a mass murderer.

Old enough to get married, create life …

107 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:37:02pm

re: #105 Dreader1962

I was in the DC area during the time and saw the effect on my friends and co-workers. It was definitely terror and could have gone on for much longer than it did.

Justice has been done. The inevitability of his sentence should send a message to anyone who would ‘sympathize’ with this type of act that we have the will to go to the extremity of the death penalty after going through our legal due process. I hope that MAJ Hasan had the news on in his hospital room.

First, it was not inevitable, and second, deterrence is a myth.

108 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:37:12pm

re: #104 The Sanity Inspector

At seventeen and a half, people can join the Marines.

17.


Youtube Video
109 FemNaziBitch  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:37:27pm

bbiab

110 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:38:39pm

I’ve never really understood why minors can’t/shouldn’t be given the death penalty. I mean, in my eyes the whole idea behind the death penalty is deterrence. Clearly it’s not rehabilitation. Maybe to a certain degree revenge for the victims or their families. None of which speaks to the mental capacity of the criminal.

111 Mike DeGuzman  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:39:03pm

It was reported that he said that he was innocent. He did not show any remorse and didn’t have any last words to say. He laid there and look up at the ceiling. He closed his eyes when the first chemical went into his vein. His eyes remained closed after the second lethal chemicals were injected into his veins and was pronounced dead at 9:11 pm EST.

112 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:40:10pm

re: #107 Cato the Elder

First, it was not inevitable, and second, deterrence is a myth.

Hard to measure a negative.

113 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:40:27pm

re: #77 austin_blue
re: #96 Sharmuta

I am okay with the death penalty in these extreme cases. I am comfortable with this penalty for forcible rape, murder etc. But it’s a tragedy from every angle. In my opinion celebrating a death like that is just unhealthy for the mind. Just my feelings, likely a result of my time at a Buddhist temple.

114 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:41:03pm

re: #110 McSpiff

I’ve never really understood why minors can’t/shouldn’t be given the death penalty. I mean, in my eyes the whole idea behind the death penalty is deterrence. Clearly it’s not rehabilitation. Maybe to a certain degree revenge for the victims or their families. None of which speaks to the mental capacity of the criminal.

Deterrence is nonsense.

There were as many or more murders back in the day when you were certain to be quickly tried, sentence, tortured and executed in the public square.

115 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:41:23pm

re: #96 Sharmuta

There is no crime so terrible you wouldn’t find the death penalty warranted?

Sharm, I have struggled with that question for years. There’s a part of me that looks at child rapists/murderers and thinks “let’s send them to hell as quickly as possible”. That, to me, is the most heinous of crimes. Just unimaginable.

But then, I read stories where innocent men have been released from death row because of a too aggressive (or lazy) police investigation or a prosecutor who bows to public pressure to get it solved and has taken shortcuts and convicted patently innocent men.

Question back to you:

Is the execution of the most loathsome individual in our society worth the risk that an innocent man is killed in our name?

That’s why I favor a sentence of life and a day. The guilty slowly rot. You have a chance to fix errors and free innocent men. With the present system, the dead, even though innocent, are still just corpses executed in our names. That’s unacceptable in a our supposedly enlightened society. That’s murder with the blood on*our* hands.

116 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:41:34pm

re: #107 Cato the Elder

First, it was not inevitable, and second, deterrence is a myth.

Cato -

Deterrence may be a myth as to Future miscreants. It is unarguably Permanent to John Muhammad as of tonight.

-S-

117 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:41:43pm

re: #110 McSpiff

I believe it has a lot to do with maturity. The actions of an impressionable immature child, as horrible as they may be, simply doesn’t have the same context as the same actions committed by an adult. And when that child grows up, hopefully s/he matures.

118 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:41:47pm

People that are committing an act of murder deserve to be killed. We are already halfway there at that point.

119 Van Helsing  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:41:54pm

re: #107 Cato the Elder

First, it was not inevitable, and second, deterrence is a myth.

Deterrence may be a myth, but he will never be a repeat offender.

120 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:42:49pm

re: #113 Rightwingconspirator

re: #96 Sharmuta

I am okay with the death penalty in these extreme cases. I am comfortable with this penalty for forcible rape, murder etc. But it’s a tragedy from every angle. In my opinion celebrating a death like that is just unhealthy for the mind. Just my feelings, likely a result of my time at a Buddhist temple.


I am not for it in the case of rape. Long, long prison terms, yes.

121 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:43:04pm

re: #112 The Sanity Inspector

Hard to measure a negative.

No, it’s not. See my #114.

Deterrence is not and has never been a factor in human wickedness.

122 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:43:08pm

re: #115 austin_blue

Really well said. I am quite torn on the matter.

123 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:43:54pm

re: #115 austin_blue

Is the execution of the most loathsome individual in our society worth the risk that an innocent man is killed in our name?

John Allen Muhammad was not an innocent man.

124 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:44:33pm

re: #123 solomonpanting

John Allen Muhammad was not an innocent man.

Not the point. Read the post.

125 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:44:35pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder

Deterrence is nonsense.

There were as many or more murders back in the day when you were certain to be quickly tried, sentence, tortured and executed in the public square.

you can’t know that…nobody can say how many crimes are not committed because of the fear of penalty

126 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:44:47pm

re: #116 Dr. Shalit

Cato -

Deterrence may be a myth as to Future miscreants. It is unarguably Permanent to John Muhammad as of tonight.

-S-

That is not deterrence. Look up the meaning and origin of the word. That is prevention.re: #119 Van Helsing

Deterrence may be a myth, but he will never be a repeat offender.

Again: prevention. Not deterrence.

127 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:45:24pm

re: #120 MandyManners

I take exception with that. Some of these sexual predators are worthy- especially when it involves children. They are sick, warped people unfit to be in the company of anything but the lowest in hell.

128 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:46:19pm

re: #103 Spare O’Lake

Malvo was 17, so he was eligible to be sentenced as an adult.
He was old enough to know better, was not insane and was a mass murderer.

It’s the whole trying minors as adults thing that I object to.

Not to advocate pedophilia or anything, but there’s a double standard when then law considers a 17 year old unable to make the proper decision about having sex with an adult but fully capable of being responsible for their decision if they kill someone.

129 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:46:29pm

re: #117 bosforus

I’ve always had the understanding that crimes that receive capital punishment are crimes that are essentially so horrible they don’t have context. In my eyes, it’s the crime that requires the capital punishment, not the perpetrator. The perpetrator really has nothing to do with it, I mean they’re dead afterwards. They didn’t learn any lesson from it. Regardless of age or mental capacity.

130 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:46:36pm

re: #127 Sharmuta

I take exception with that. Some of these sexual predators are worthy- especially when it involves children. They are sick, warped people unfit to be in the company of anything but the lowest in hell.

Pedophiles…I might be able to accept it.

131 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:46:42pm

re: #95 MandyManners

Roger, Roger.

It’s Lieutenant Hurwitz. Severe shell-shock. Thinks he’s Ethel Merman.

132 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:46:55pm

re: #124 austin_blue

Not the point. Read the post.

I read it. But in cases like this there is no chance of this particular man being killed by mistake.

133 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:46:57pm

re: #125 albusteve

you can’t know that…nobody can say how many crimes are not committed because of the fear of penalty

Yes, in a sense you can know that. The per capita murder rate was as high or higher in past societies with quick and lethal capital punishment laws as it is today. That can be documented.

Deterrence is hogwash.

134 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:47:39pm

re: #120 MandyManners

Your opinion carries huge weight with me, as I read your very personal post recently. I can not imagine it. Years ago we fostered a teen girl. She went on the get married and had children. Months ago her two year old girl was viciously raped, and the anger remains with me. Of course my anger should be set aside. Rational over emotional.

135 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:49:34pm

I’m personally anti death penalty though I feel no sympathy whatsoever for him and I give Tim Kaine credit for enforcing the law here even though he like myself does not agree with it. I remember the sniper attacks like they were yesterday. Our community had just had 9-11 and the anthrax attacks were around the same time so it was an interesting time in Northern Va. I remember that we couldn’t go outside on the track in gym because there was fear that they were out there just waiting for a target. I also remember how Charles Moose became an instant celebrity because of the case only to fade because of some book or movie deal.

136 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:49:56pm

re: #133 Cato the Elder

Yes, in a sense you can know that. The per capita murder rate was as high or higher in past societies with quick and lethal capital punishment laws as it is today. That can be documented.

Deterrence is hogwash.

Then it is poetic justice. I know that if were one of the people who took a bullet to my head and had my skull blown outwards from inside I would have wanted to kill John Allen Muhammad before he would have had that chance and after he had done so. John Allen Muhammad’s humanity ended when he pulled the trigger.

137 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:50:23pm

re: #115 austin_blue

If you’re truly concerned, these people do good work, and have gotten several wrongly convicted people freed.

138 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:50:30pm

re: #134 Rightwingconspirator

Your opinion carries huge weight with me, as I read your very personal post recently. I can not imagine it. Years ago we fostered a teen girl. She went on the get married and had children. Months ago her two year old girl was viciously raped, and the anger remains with me. Of course my anger should be set aside. Rational over emotional.

No parole.

Okay. After thinking about it, I’d be happy to see someone like that swinging from the gallow.

139 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:51:29pm

re: #133 Cato the Elder

Yes, in a sense you can know that. The per capita murder rate was as high or higher in past societies with quick and lethal capital punishment laws as it is today. That can be documented.

Deterrence is hogwash.

no, you cannot know that…fear of punishment has deterred me from criminal activities on several occasions…who comes forth and says they didn’t do a crime?…it is something you cannot know…I understand what you are saying, but statistically it cannot be proven

140 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:52:34pm

re: #129 McSpiff

I guess I’m not sure about that why certain crimes receive the death penalty. Sometimes they get executed when I think they should, sometimes they don’t.

141 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:52:54pm

re: #132 solomonpanting

I read it. But in cases like this there is no chance of this particular man being killed by mistake.

I don’t disagree. But it ensures that other innocent men *will* be killed by mistake.

Is it worth it?

142 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:52:57pm

re: #136 Gus 802

Then it is poetic justice. I know that if were one of the people who took a bullet to my head and had my skull blown outwards from inside I would have wanted to kill John Allen Muhammad before he would have had that chance and after he had done so. John Allen Muhammad’s humanity ended when he pulled the trigger.

It has nothing to do with poetry, either. Call it justice, if you will. I have no problem with that.

As for when someone’s humanity ends, that is not for you or me to decide. You may disagree all you like, but I do not believe man is the measure of all things.

143 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:53:14pm

re: #115 austin_blue

austin_blue -

I too have spent many hours reading, thinking about and discussing this. My basic position is “Life Without Parole” for most offenders, if for no other reason than the expense involved in endless appeals exceeds in money and aggravation the costs of incarceration. I maintain an “insurection/treason” exception. The Execution of John Muhammad met that exception in my mind.
That is all.

-S-

144 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:53:32pm

re: #139 albusteve

Yes, in a sense you can know that. The per capita murder rate was as high or higher in past societies with quick and lethal capital punishment laws as it is today. That can be documented.

Deterrence is hogwash.

no, you cannot know that…fear of punishment has deterred me from criminal activities on several occasions…who comes forth and says they didn’t do a crime?…it is something you cannot know…I understand what you are saying, but statistically it cannot be proven

Fear of what would happen to me is the only reason why I’m divorced and not a widow.

145 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:53:36pm

John Allen Muhammed; we are richer for having lost you.

146 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:54:36pm

re: #138 MandyManners

No parole.

Okay. After thinking about it, I’d be happy to see someone like that swinging from the gallow.

So would I. I’d be tempted to string him up myself. I just don’t want government doing it.

Even though it’s more likely to be wrong, I find vigilante justice more morally acceptable than capital punishment.

147 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:54:36pm

re: #144 MandyManners

Fear of what would happen to me is the only reason why I’m divorced and not a widow.

Well, that and it just wouldn’t be right.

148 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:54:38pm

re: #115 austin_blue

I would hope in cases where evidence wasn’t rock solid, the death penalty wouldn’t be given. I would favor life in prison in such cases. But in this day and age of forensic science, when the evidence is rock solid, the person actually is 100% guilty of such barbarity, we could feel justified in such a sentence.

All who are made to be compassionate in the place of the cruel
In the end are made to be cruel in the place of the compassionate

-Adam Smith

149 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:56:07pm

re: #146 Conservative Moonbat

So would I. I’d be tempted to string him up myself. I just don’t want government doing it.

Even though it’s more likely to be wrong, I find vigilante justice more morally acceptable than capital punishment.

I understand that feeling. But, isn’t harm to an individual also a harm to society which in turn, takes vengeance through the legal system?

150 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:56:18pm

“Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent” -Adam Smith

151 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:56:23pm

Gallows. There is no such thing as a gallow.

152 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:56:50pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

It has nothing to do with poetry, either. Call it justice, if you will. I have no problem with that.

As for when someone’s humanity ends, that is not for you or me to decide. You may disagree all you like, but I do not believe man is the measure of all things.

Yes, poetic justice is a cliche. I don’t have strong feelings with either punishment. If had lived the rest of his life in an 8x8 box would have been his own personal living hell and in fact one that I feel he would have only experienced. Neither do I feel much angst for society executing him for me. I do know how I would feel had he harmed someone in my family and his end would have been far more sinister then you can imagine.

153 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:57:47pm

re: #146 Conservative Moonbat

So would I. I’d be tempted to string him up myself. I just don’t want government doing it.

Even though it’s more likely to be wrong, I find vigilante justice more morally acceptable than capital punishment.

The Ellie Nessler approach.

154 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:57:56pm

re: #146 Conservative Moonbat

Id agree. Executing someone has no ‘cost’ to any of those involved, beyond their own conscience. If you must accept 5,10,15,20 years in prison, then you need to be certain its truly justice.

155 abolitionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:58:37pm

OT: Senior Official: More Hasan Ties to People Under Investigation by FBI
Alleged Shooter Had “Unexplained Connections” to Others Besides Jihadist Cleric Awlaki

[snip]
The Washington Post reported Tuesday that Hasan gave a PowerPoint presentation to fellow Army doctors in 2007 in which he said, “It’s getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims.” He recommended that Muslim soldiers be given the option of being released from the military as conscientious objectors to decrease what he called “adverse events.” Under “comments,” he wrote, “We love death more than you love life.”

156 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:58:53pm

re: #151 Cato the Elder

Gallows. There is no such thing as a gallow.

There is such thing as a typo.

157 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:59:24pm

re: #100 Cato the Elder

This is the kind of utterly barbaric sadism the Founding Fathers had in mind when they prohibited “cruel and unusual punishments.”

I don’t have any moral objection, as such, to merciless killers being required to give up their own lives.
My objection to the death penalty is based on the impossibility of reconciling human fallibility, especially institutional fallibility, with the finality of death. If an innocent person is sent to prison; amends, however inadequate, can be made. The lost years cannot be replaced but property and freedom can be restored, and compensation paid, and lessons learned. When an innocent person is executed, as seems very likely to have happened here in Texas in 2004, there is no way to restore life.
We have not yet found a system that will give the state the power to kill those who truly deserve it, and yet still be immune to abuse and incompetence among the state’s many functionaries.

158 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:59:51pm

re: #138 MandyManners

In the case that has broken my heart, there was this very difficult conversation. The guilty ex husband pled guilty, a plea bargain that is supposed to assure he is incarcerated in a way that the population thinks he is in for something else.

The morally excruciating conversation was about making sure that bargain failed and this beast would be exposed to the prison population as a child rapist. But if he was killed in there for that reason… Who is responsible?

159 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:00:02pm

re: #144 MandyManners

Fear of what would happen to me is the only reason why I’m divorced and not a widow.

I smuggled a trunk full of pot into Canada one time…I was utterly frozen with fear, and it took all my wits to pull it off…I made a bunch of money and it seemed so easy in retrospect at the time…but I could not do it again because I was scared shitless with what would happen to me if I got caught…I was in fact deterred

160 borgcube  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:00:41pm

Should have been drawn and quartered. Public square. Pay per view. Little horses.

161 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:01:10pm

re: #151 Cato the Elder

Gallows. There is no such thing as a gallow.

gallow…it’s a California wine…get hep Cato

162 6pat6  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:01:41pm

Glad to see that rat bastard achiving room temperature.

Good riddance, fucker.

They should’ve let that SOB run free in a field, with snipers taking shots at him, for his execution. Our means of execution are far too humane to inhuman people like this.

163 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:01:57pm

re: #137 The Sanity Inspector

If you’re truly concerned, these people do good work, and have gotten several wrongly convicted people freed.

Exactly my point. Innocents have been executed in this country. It’s legal lynching. It’s unacceptable in our names.

Example? Here:

[Link: www.newyorker.com…]

Willingham was prosecuted because he was a white trash asshole and an easy mark for the DA. Unfortunately, it wasn’t an arson. He didn’t kill his three kids. No viable motive. Proclaimed his innocence until they stuck the needle in his arm.

His murder by the State was as abominable as the acts of animals who deserve the needle.

But he was murdered by the State of Texas, just the same, for an act he didn’t commit.

Who pays for *that* homicide?

164 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:02:26pm

re: #158 Rightwingconspirator

In the case that has broken my heart, there was this very difficult conversation. The guilty ex husband pled guilty, a plea bargain that is supposed to assure he is incarcerated in a way that the population thinks he is in for something else.

The morally excruciating conversation was about making sure that bargain failed and this beast would be exposed to the prison population as a child rapist. But if he was killed in there for that reason… Who is responsible?

Who raped that child? Her father? Her step-father?

If he is killed in prison, it will be the responsibility of whoever shoves a shiv into his heart.

165 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:03:45pm

I feel a terrible sadness hearing about the execution.

(I do not mean to imply he should have been released back onto the streets. Nor do I mean any disrespect for the victims as well as for those who were terrified of driving in the D.C. area during the guys month of terror. But what a waste of a life.)

166 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:04:00pm

re: #159 albusteve

I smuggled a trunk full of pot into Canada one time…I was utterly frozen with fear, and it took all my wits to pull it off…I made a bunch of money and it seemed so easy in retrospect at the time…but I could not do it again because I was scared shitless with what would happen to me if I got caught…I was in fact deterred

Any HoHos in the glove compartment?

167 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:05:44pm

re: #143 Dr. Shalit

austin_blue -

I too have spent many hours reading, thinking about and discussing this. My basic position is “Life Without Parole” for most offenders, if for no other reason than the expense involved in endless appeals exceeds in money and aggravation the costs of incarceration. I maintain an “insurection/treason” exception. The Execution of John Muhammad met that exception in my mind.
That is all.

-S-

You make a good point, but he was just a garden variety sociopath, who pulled a 17-year old boy into his craziness as both a father figure and sexual partner.

Ewww. Nasty all around. I’m glad the kid didn’t get the needle. He had no chance from the start under the charismatic influence of a complete bug like that.

168 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:06:06pm

The world is a better place without John Allen Muhammad. I can think of no reason why our society should be burdened with his care.

169 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:07:46pm

re: #159 albusteve

It seems in general, that capital punishment is not used in those cases such as yours. I honestly wonder if there is anyone who would otherwise be a serial child rapist, is too afraid of capture and death to actually act on those impulses. My gut tells me that someone that ‘broken’ probably can’t logically be deterred. The DC sniper case is similar in my mind. I’ve never had any desire to kill perfect strangers. To the best of my knowledge I’ve never met anyone with those desires. To do so, I feel you need to be ‘wired’ differently, and I wonder if that different wiring leaves you with the same aversion to punishment that you and I have. But I really have no evidence to support the feeling that they don’t… So it’s pretty much an open question until someone comes forward saying it actually deterred them, which I highly doubt we’ll ever see.

170 J.S.  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:08:02pm

From the interviews, I believe he was mentally disturbed.. however, was he psychotic and delusional? unable to distinguish right from wrong? probably not. thus, he was not “legally” insane…

171 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:08:18pm

re: #168 Bagua

The world is a better place without John Allen Muhammad. I can think of no reason why our society should be burdened with his care.

Because innocent men are killed in your name under the same system? This doesn’t bother you?

172 jaunte  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:08:56pm

re: #156 MandyManners

Maybe instead of sending them to the gallows, we should invent a new way to gallow them away from crime.
[Link: www.dictionary.net…]

173 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:09:48pm

re: #165 Stuart Leviton

I feel a terrible sadness hearing about the execution.

(I do not mean to imply he should have been released back onto the streets. Nor do I mean any disrespect for the victims as well as for those who were terrified of driving in the D.C. area during the guys month of terror. But what a waste of a life.)

John Allen Muhammad wasted his own life when he murdered 10 innocent people in his terrorist spree.

Sobbing about his execution being “a waste of life” is pitiful.

174 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:10:31pm

re: #164 MandyManners

The father is the rapist. Utterly beyond my minds ability to warp around it. He is in jail now. He got life without parole. I hope your attacker got the same.

175 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:10:56pm

re: #171 austin_blue

Because innocent men are killed in your name under the same system? This doesn’t bother you?

That does bother me. I would prefer capital punishment to be reserved for cases in which there is a rock solid criteria for establishing guilt.

176 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:11:07pm

re: #166 MandyManners

Any HoHos in the glove compartment?

Ha! I’m assuming they had all been consumed by that point.

Now, the large bag of Nacho Cheese Doritos and the 2-liter bottle of Dr. Pepper should have been a giveaway to the Canadian Customs inspectors…

177 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:11:21pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

It has nothing to do with poetry, either. Call it justice, if you will. I have no problem with that.

As for when someone’s humanity ends, that is not for you or me to decide. You may disagree all you like, but I do not believe man is the measure of all things.

“Who are we to judge?” is not an answer. It is a question.

178 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:11:32pm

re: #171 austin_blue

Because innocent men are killed in your name under the same system? This doesn’t bother you?

I believe there are many valid arguments against the death penalty such as those brought up by Shiplord Kiel.

However, John Allen Muhammad is not one of them. If one wants to argue against the death penalty, find someone else to make that case.

179 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:12:03pm

re: #141 austin_blue

I don’t disagree. But it ensures that other innocent men *will* be killed by mistake.

I don’t see how one follows the other. Modern science, like DNA, is used to determine the guilt or innocence of many prisoners and many have been released. I’d like to see a list of all the innocents who were wrongly killed. In cases like this, or others where there is no doubt as to the guilt of the party, I have no problem with the death penalty.
I, for one, especially if one of my loved ones was murdered, wouldn’t want to see or hear of the interviews of the Charles Mansons or other murderers and listen to their maniacal outburts, their life stories, their recounting of their crimes, knowing they continued to have the ability to rise each day, experience some happiness or gratitude at their good fortune to still be alive while their victims do not. What an insult to their victims and a society that continues to harbor notions that these “damaged goods” deserve that precious gift they so wantonly stole from others.

180 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:12:44pm

re: #166 MandyManners

Any HoHos in the glove compartment?

no, but another time a buddy and I spent a week or more canoeing and fishing way up on the Bachawanna river in Canada…I broke up an ounce of hash into little pieces and mixed it into my nightcrawaller farm…they searched my truck but didn’t find the hash…heh…we took a drill with us a whittled a pipe

181 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:13:46pm

re: #160 borgcube

Should have been drawn and quartered. Public square. Pay per view. Little horses.

Nre: #162 6pat6

Glad to see that rat bastard achiving room temperature.

Good riddance, fucker.

They should’ve let that SOB run free in a field, with snipers taking shots at him, for his execution. Our means of execution are far too humane to inhuman people like this.

Nice. Y’all should have a contest.

182 jaunte  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:13:46pm

re: #180 albusteve

Did it make the worms sluggish, at all?

183 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:14:54pm

re: #146 Conservative Moonbat

Even though it’s more likely to be wrong, I find vigilante justice more morally acceptable than capital punishment.

Now how in the world do you make your synapses fire that way?

184 Racer X  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:15:00pm

This thread is bringin me down.

185 Chip Designer  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:15:06pm

The argument against the death penalty for any crime other than murder is that it encourages criminals to kill their victims so as to not leave witnesses.

If we had the death penalty for speeding, I would tend to resist violently if I were stopped.

186 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:15:42pm

re: #172 jaunte

Maybe instead of sending them to the gallows, we should invent a new way to gallow them away from crime.
[Link: www.dictionary.net…]

An ounce of family is worth a ton of social workers.

187 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:15:56pm

re: #173 Bagua

John Allen Muhammad wasted his own life when he murdered 10 innocent people in his terrorist spree.

Sobbing about his execution being “a waste of life” is pitiful.

Sobbing?

188 Racer X  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:16:19pm

World’s worst parking jobs

189 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:16:19pm

re: #182 jaunte

Did it make the worms sluggish, at all?

I often wondered that…we caught plenty of fish tho

190 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:16:30pm

re: #184 Racer X

This thread is bringin me down.

Have a creepy clay animation short that has nothing to do with the thread, then:

Youtube Video
191 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:16:30pm

Should Osama bin Laden get the death penalty if caught?

192 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:16:31pm

Teenage Wasteland

Youtube Video

Out here in the fields
I fight for my meals
I get my back into my living
I don’t need to fight
To prove I’m right
I don’t need to be forgiven

Namaste, y’all

193 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:16:57pm

re: #175 Bagua

That does bother me. I would prefer capital punishment to be reserved for cases in which there is a rock solid criteria for establishing guilt.

And how is that different from the system now?

Are you saying the system is so porous as it is that it needs major reform? Where should that reform be initiated?

I generally agree with your sentiment, but the present system is broken, isn’t it?

194 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:17:09pm

re: #185 Chip Designer

We get this point about the “three strikes” law here.

195 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:17:09pm

re: #184 Racer X

This thread is bringin me down.

me too…I have bad vibe

196 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:17:36pm

re: #187 SanFranciscoZionist

Sobbing?

I feel a terrible sadness hearing about the execution.

I read that as sobbing.

197 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:18:23pm

re: #191 Gus 802

Should Osama bin Laden get the death penalty if caught?

His head in a valise on the President’s desk is good enough for me. That, or having a Predator turn him into pink mist.

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:18:49pm

re: #196 Bagua

I feel a terrible sadness hearing about the execution.

I read that as sobbing.

I don’t. May just be a matter of reading.

199 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:19:36pm

he took lives, he forfeited his own…end of story, there is no more to it…our society condones a tooth for a tooth…so be it

200 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:19:50pm

re: #197 The Sanity Inspector

His head in a valise on the President’s desk is good enough for me. That, or having a Predator turn him into pink mist.

I would prefer a “well lit” wicker basket with some plastic garland mixed in as a bedding.

//

201 Racer X  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:20:01pm

re: #191 Gus 802

Should Osama bin Laden get the death penalty if caught?

It’s already been carried out.

202 hanoch  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:20:21pm

re: #115 austin_blue

Is the execution of the most loathsome individual in our society worth the risk that an innocent man is killed in our name?

I say yes. That justice cannot be applied with total perfection does not mean that the endeavor to do justice should be abandoned.

203 jaunte  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:20:30pm

re: #195 albusteve

me too…I have bad vibe

Cold Cold Feeling:

Youtube Video
204 wee fury  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:20:32pm

John Allan Muhammad hunted and killed people as if he was out on a deer hunting trip. He was an evil man. I, for one, am glad that he is no longer among the living.

205 Van Helsing  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:20:38pm

re: #191 Gus 802

Should Osama bin Laden get the death penalty if caught?

He did declare war on the US and I’m pretty sure ordering the attacks on 9/11 would fall under the category of war crimes deserving the death penalty, so yes. Yes, he should.

206 J.S.  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:20:41pm

re: #180 albusteve

hmm…there was a person who got caught selling some small quantity of “soft” drugs…and it was during a “bad time” (when such crimes were punished very severely). The fellow had the book thrown at him — he received a sentence far harsher than most murderers…(40 + years?)…then, the laws changed…yet, he rotted still in prison…so the crime for which he was originally sentenced, became eventually a joke — something for which today, you’d get a slap on the wrist…hardly 40 years. (He spent his time in prison learning how to make films..eventually went he got out, and he was hired by CBC as a reporter…)

207 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:20:53pm

re: #178 Gus 802

I believe there are many valid arguments against the death penalty such as those brought up by Shiplord Kiel.

However, John Allen Muhammad is not one of them. If one wants to argue against the death penalty, find someone else to make that case.

One doesn’t make such a case on individual examples alone, which is not to say that some examples for are not more worthy than others.

208 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:21:22pm

re: #188 Racer X

World’s worst parking jobs

And then there’s this:

Youtube Video
209 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:21:40pm

re: #202 hanoch

Would you being willing to die an innocent man, while the world knows as a murderer, in the name of justice?

210 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:21:53pm

re: #207 Naso Tang

One doesn’t make such a case on individual examples alone, which is not to say that some examples for are not more worthy than others.

John Allen Muhammad is not worthy.

211 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:22:25pm

re: #188 Racer X

World’s worst parking jobs

Best parallel parking

One

Two

212 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:22:37pm

re: #188 Racer X

LOL! When I lived in a very high density section of Hollywood, it was known as “parking by braile”. You gently tapped the car in front & in back, until you got in or out of the parking space.

213 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:22:38pm

re: #208 bosforus

A better view:

Youtube Video
214 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:22:39pm

re: #185 Chip Designer

The argument against the death penalty for any crime other than murder is that it encourages criminals to kill their victims so as to not leave witnesses.

If we had the death penalty for speeding, I would tend to resist violently if I were stopped.

That may be your argument; make sure you call it yours, not THE.

215 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:22:56pm

re: #211 solomonpanting

Copycat.

216 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:23:55pm

re: #210 Gus 802

John Allen Muhammad is not worthy.

Did you think that is what I meant?

217 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:24:18pm

re: #216 Naso Tang

Did you think that is what I meant?

Nope. Just reiterating.

218 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:24:25pm

re: #193 austin_blue

And how is that different from the system now?

Are you saying the system is so porous as it is that it needs major reform? Where should that reform be initiated?

I generally agree with your sentiment, but the present system is broken, isn’t it?

I wouldn’t say the system is broken, however it is in need of major reform, speaking generally.

In the case of the terrorist John Allen Muhammad it seems to have worked well but it should not have taken seven years to execute him.

219 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:25:08pm

John Allen Muhammad is not a good poster boy to speak out against the death penalty.

220 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:25:11pm

Gotta get to bed, kiddies’ piano evaluation is tomorrow morning.

221 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:25:44pm

re: #179 solomonpanting

I don’t see how one follows the other. Modern science, like DNA, is used to determine the guilt or innocence of many prisoners and many have been released. I’d like to see a list of all the innocents who were wrongly killed. In cases like this, or others where there is no doubt as to the guilt of the party, I have no problem with the death penalty.
I, for one, especially if one of my loved ones was murdered, wouldn’t want to see or hear of the interviews of the Charles Mansons or other murderers and listen to their maniacal outburts, their life stories, their recounting of their crimes, knowing they continued to have the ability to rise each day, experience some happiness or gratitude at their good fortune to still be alive while their victims do not. What an insult to their victims and a society that continues to harbor notions that these “damaged goods” deserve that precious gift they so wantonly stole from others.

But if the wrong man is convicted and executed, later proved to be innocent, you are under the double whammy. Cheated because you felt the actual execution was legitimate, and later suffering from the guilt that a) an innocent man was killed for a crime that he did not commit, and b) that the real killer is still out there, possibly killing others.

Boy, howdy, that would suck.

And it’s happened.

222 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:25:59pm

re: #206 J.S.

hmm…there was a person who got caught selling some small quantity of “soft” drugs…and it was during a “bad time” (when such crimes were punished very severely). The fellow had the book thrown at him — he received a sentence far harsher than most murderers…(40 + years?)…then, the laws changed…yet, he rotted still in prison…so the crime for which he was originally sentenced, became eventually a joke — something for which today, you’d get a slap on the wrist…hardly 40 years. (He spent his time in prison learning how to make films..eventually went he got out, and he was hired by CBC as a reporter…)

I sold an ounce of weed to a snitch in high school and got popped…a 20yr felony in MI…my trial was delayed twice during which time the law changed to misdemeanor…two weeks in jail and a fine…gave me a very bad rep

223 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:26:28pm

re: #203 jaunte

Cold Cold Feeling:

sweet…thanks for that amigo

224 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:27:02pm

re: #191 Gus 802

Should Osama bin Laden get the death penalty if caught?

General population, baby!

Heh, heh, heh…

225 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:27:58pm

re: #221 austin_blue

Pfft. Haven’t you seen CSI? We’re talking about modern science here. Perfectly Infallible. Most of the time.

226 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:28:13pm

re: #224 austin_blue

General population, baby!

Heh, heh, heh…

He’d be recruiting converts within days!

227 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:28:55pm

re: #218 Bagua

I wouldn’t say the system is broken, however it is in need of major reform, speaking generally.

In the case of the terrorist John Allen Muhammad it seems to have worked well but it should not have taken seven years to execute him.

Bagua, if an innocent man, even one, is on death row right now, the system is broken. That is unacceptable.

228 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:29:53pm

re: #219 Gus 802

John Allen Muhammad is not a good poster boy to speak out against the death penalty.

I have more philosophical arguments against the death penalty, but I also tend to think that “his” (punishment) is now ended, not believing in hell and all that, if you get my meaning.

229 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:30:03pm

re: #226 Gus 802

He’d be recruiting converts within days!

he’d be a super hero in our system, unless he disappeared into a supermax…more likely

230 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:30:22pm

re: #226 Gus 802

He’d be recruiting converts within days!

He’d be collecting shivs within days.

231 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:31:06pm

re: #230 austin_blue

He’d be collecting shivs within days.

As in a stamp collection or an appendage?

//

232 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:31:50pm

re: #227 austin_blue

Bagua, if an innocent man, even one, is on death row right now, the system is broken. That is unacceptable.

I argee…standing around and shooting people is one thing…any other types of cases need the most scrutiny available

233 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:32:36pm

re: #173 Bagua

I feel a terrible sadness hearing about the execution.

(I do not mean to imply he should have been released back onto the streets. Nor do I mean any disrespect for the victims as well as for those who were terrified of driving in the D.C. area during the guys month of terror. But what a waste of a life.)

John Allen Muhammad wasted his own life when he murdered 10 innocent people in his terrorist spree.

Sobbing about his execution being “a waste of life” is pitiful.


Please, check your need to distort my momentary sadness into sobbing and pitiful. Forgive me if this request is too strongly posed. Peace be unto you.

234 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:32:47pm

re: #221 austin_blue

But if the wrong man is convicted and executed

If, if, if…

235 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:33:26pm

Ok, my reform is this: If you are going to support the death penalty, you should be willing to carry it out yourself.

In practical terms, this would mean that the mechanism of execution; the levers that start the flow of drugs, the lanyard of the guillotine, the trap on the gallows, the switch of the electric chair, whatever; should be arranged so that every member of the sentencing jury, and the judge, and the prosecutor, should be required to operate it simultaneously. If any one of them balks or fails, the penalty is reduced to life without parole.

In less heinous or obvious cases, or those that are in honest dispute, it could easily prevent an irrevocable miscarriage of justice.

236 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:33:29pm

re: #224 austin_blue

General population, baby!

Heh, heh, heh…

I find it curious what you are implying by that.

237 hanoch  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:34:35pm

re: #209 McSpiff

I fully recognize that I am personally subject to the system of justice that I endorse.

238 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:34:47pm

re: #235 Shiplord Kirel

Ok, my reform is this: If you are going to support the death penalty, you should be willing to carry it out yourself.

In practical terms, this would mean that the mechanism of execution; the levers that start the flow of drugs, the lanyard of the guillotine, the trap on the gallows, the switch of the electric chair, whatever; should be arranged so that every member of the sentencing jury, and the judge, and the prosecutor, should be required to operate it simultaneously. If any one of them balks or fails, the penalty is reduced to life without parole.

In less heinous or obvious cases, or those that are in honest dispute, it could easily prevent an irrevocable miscarriage of justice.

Now, now. No one said anything about the guillotine.

239 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:34:51pm

I approve of the death penalty, but I probably feel more conflicted about this than anything else.

In a weird way given the morally unsupportable prison conditions, pushing for life without parole seems as if I were supporting torture. Facet ofter facet of conflicted conclusions. I have made the point that shipping Guantanamo prisoners to US prisons would only be worse conditions, ending in even worse global condemnation of our treatment of POW’s.

240 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:34:56pm

re: #235 Shiplord Kirel

Ok, my reform is this: If you are going to support the death penalty, you should be willing to carry it out yourself.

In practical terms, this would mean that the mechanism of execution; the levers that start the flow of drugs, the lanyard of the guillotine, the trap on the gallows, the switch of the electric chair, whatever; should be arranged so that every member of the sentencing jury, and the judge, and the prosecutor, should be required to operate it simultaneously. If any one of them balks or fails, the penalty is reduced to life without parole.

In less heinous or obvious cases, or those that are in honest dispute, it could easily prevent an irrevocable miscarriage of justice.

no problem…is this a part time job?…I’ll take it

241 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:36:14pm

re: #237 hanoch

Fair enough in that case.

242 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:36:23pm

re: #232 albusteve

I argee…standing around and shooting people is one thing…any other types of cases need the most scrutiny available

Thank you.

But I will still make the case that life and a day is most appropriate. Killing people for killing people is revenge, pure and simple. It’s not about deterrence.

I just wish these shooters would resist arrest a little more…

243 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:37:32pm

re: #240 albusteve

no problem…is this a part time job?…I’ll take it

Salary depending on experience. Must have BA in related field. Must know Microsoft Word, Powerpoint, Photoshop and Autocad 2010.

244 Racer X  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:37:34pm

Psst, wanna buy a 4 finger lid?

245 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:37:40pm

re: #234 solomonpanting

If, if, if…

Then you are guilty of murder. Okay with that?

246 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:37:52pm

re: #242 austin_blue

Ever seen the documentaries on US prisons?

247 Bill Jefferson  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:38:28pm

Haven’t caught any anti-death penalty protests in the news. Same when McVeigh was executed.

By the way, this creep lasted about a year longer than McVeigh from crime to execution, depending how you measure things. McVeigh was executed 2245 days after the Oklahoma City bombing, Muhammad 2623 days after the first, non-fatal shooting, 2605 days after the first killing, in Alabama, and 2596 days after the three-week spree began in earnest.

Six to seven years counts as speedy execution in the U.S. Not sure what to do with that data.

248 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:38:56pm

re: #235 Shiplord Kirel

Ok, my reform is this: If you are going to support the death penalty, you should be willing to carry it out yourself.

Cute, and I’m not sure how serious you are; but it fails on the simple basis that that the principle could, and would, be extended to all aspects of decision making, whether legal or not. That is not how societies function.

249 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:39:00pm

re: #233 Stuart Leviton

Please, check your need to distort my momentary sadness into sobbing and pitiful. Forgive me if this request is too strongly posed. Peace be unto you.

Be honest: You said that:


I feel a terrible sadness hearing about the execution.

And


But what a waste of a life.)

It is not a distortion to equate feeling a “terrible sadness” with sobbing.

Peace out.

250 jaunte  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:39:32pm

Some more Albert Collins: If trouble was money

251 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:39:38pm

re: #243 Gus 802

Salary depending on experience. Must have BA in related field. Must know Microsoft Word, Powerpoint, Photoshop and Autocad 2010.

I’m good with Lincoln Logs!

252 Mich-again  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:39:51pm

re: #235 Shiplord Kirel

I wonder if it was known that the execution would take place directly after the guilty verdict was read if it would change the mind of anyone on the jury. As it stands now the jury members know there will be years of hearings and appeals before the sentence is actually carried out.

253 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:40:25pm

re: #251 albusteve

I’m good with Lincoln Logs!

Hmmm, let me check. How about an Erector Set ™?

254 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:41:24pm

re: #239 Rightwingconspirator

I approve of the death penalty, but I probably feel more conflicted about this than anything else.

In a weird way given the morally unsupportable prison conditions, pushing for life without parole seems as if I were supporting torture. Facet ofter facet of conflicted conclusions. I have made the point that shipping Guantanamo prisoners to US prisons would only be worse conditions, ending in even worse global condemnation of our treatment of POW’s.

Ah! The Club Gitmo argument! Despite the fact that several convicted Muslims are in Supermax facilities without a peep from the global condemnation types.

Curious, isn’t it?

255 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:41:33pm

re: #245 austin_blue

Then you are guilty of murder. Okay with that?


Whom did I murder?

re: #242 austin_blue

Killing people for killing murdering people is revenge, pure and simple

I wouldn’t equate the two.

256 seamonkey  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:43:20pm

Very few societies as free as ours allow the government so much power as to execute citizens. Our prison system generally is shameful, based on punishment and revenge. Have you ever seen the prisons of the early 19th century, when Quaker ideas were at their zenith? Some prisons were very beautiful. They were meant to elevate and educate the incarcerated. Europeans (de Tocqueville etc) were amazed. Now Europe very rightly looks at our penal system (Angola, the satellite city of dysfunctional New Orleans) with a shudder. They went through hell. We still haven’t.

257 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:43:26pm

re: #245 austin_blue

Then you are guilty of murder. Okay with that?

A study showed an average of 195,000 Americans died annually in 2000, 2001, and 2002 because of in-hospital medical errors.

The doctors are not “guilty of murder” and non-medical professionals are most certainly not “guilty of murder”.

If a vastly smaller number of convicts are wrongly executed, then the justice personnel involved are not “guilty of murder” and the civilian population are most certainly not “guilty of murder”.

Hyperbole does not equal logic.

258 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:43:30pm

re: #246 Rightwingconspirator

Ever seen the documentaries on US prisons?

State, Federal, or Rendition?

259 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:44:07pm
Youtube Video
260 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:45:18pm

re: #252 Mich-again

I think it’s not any easier to pass a death sentance, knowing that the case is going to be reviewed over & over, than it would be to pass a death sentance, knowing it was a final decision.

I doubt anyone takes this decision lightly.

This from one, who has served on more than 10 juries.

261 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:46:07pm

re: #254 austin_blue

Well super-max at least separates the prisoners nearly all the time. I’m not arguing “club Gitmo” like people say “club Fed” for low security facilities for connected white collar criminals.

Just wait until some Afghani guy gets killed in prison by an Aryan separatist. You’ll get your outrage then.

262 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:47:11pm

re: #255 solomonpanting

Whom did I murder?

Any man who is convicted and executed when actually innocent. It happens.

It is *your* court system. You are ultimately responsible, as a citizen.

263 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:47:30pm

re: #249 Bagua

It is not a distortion to equate feeling a “terrible sadness” with sobbing.

Peace out.

Yes.it.is. be honest. It equates a legitimate personal feeling of emotion with an act of uncontrollable physical acting out. It is a very cheap and dishonest form of gotcha. You can disagree with him without putting words in his mouth.

264 borgcube  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:48:03pm

re: #181 austin_blue

I hope I can check out with a lethal cocktail when it’s time. Nice way to go. Look, on one hand you say that rotting in a jail cell for decades is worse punishment and it might prevent an innocent from getting executed. Well, using your scenario, what happens if an innocent person rots for decades in prison versus getting executed? The system really failed there using your logic and the prisoner suffered a worse fate, right?

The system as you like to say isn’t perfect. Innocents will get punished. No disagreement there. That wasn’t the case here however and in fact, I could have easily pulled the levers myself that delivered the lethal mix. The prick got off too easy. Revenge? Base barbaric instincts? I don’t give a crap what you think. At least I’m consistent. You’ll bounce all over the place no matter what.

265 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:48:19pm

re: #261 Rightwingconspirator

Well super-max at least separates the prisoners nearly all the time. I’m not arguing “club Gitmo” like people say “club Fed” for low security facilities for connected white collar criminals.

Just wait until some Afghani guy gets killed in prison by an Aryan separatist. You’ll get your outrage then.


too bad…it’s us verses them…stay out of jail

266 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:48:38pm

re: #262 austin_blue

Any man who is convicted and executed when actually innocent. It happens.

It is *your* *our* court system. You We are ultimately responsible, as a citizen citizens.

FTFY

267 Mich-again  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:48:48pm

re: #260 Floral Giraffe

I think it’s not any easier to pass a death sentance, knowing that the case is going to be reviewed over & over, than it would be to pass a death sentance, knowing it was a final decision.

I’m not so sure about that. If they knew that as soon as the verdict was read that the sentence would be carried out while they watched I think it might affect some jurors.

268 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:49:00pm

re: #257 Bagua

Nor does your post equal logic. The only case discussed in which death was deliberate are the executions. If you don’t see the difference between accidental death to a medical error and accidental death due to wrongful conviction then you truly aren’t capable of judging the merits of capital punishment. Regardless of outcome or correctness death occurring during an execution is intentional. Death occurring on a operating table, no mater how negligent is not deliberate. If a Doctor was found to be deliberately killing patients he’d be tried for murder. If anything, your post supports the argument that judicial officials should be held accountable in the case of wrongful execution.

269 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:49:15pm

re: #262 austin_blue

Any man who is convicted and executed when actually innocent. It happens.

It is *your* court system. You are ultimately responsible, as a citizen.

Then I plead guilty. Got that list?

270 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:49:19pm

re: #238 Gus 802

Now, now. No one said anything about the guillotine.

I rather like the guillotine. It is admittedly messy and pretty tough emotionally on executioners and witnesses, but killing people should be an unpleasant experience. At the same time, the best evidence we have indicates that it is not significantly more painful than lethal injection and there is some evidence that it is not as painful. It also gets around that insanely creepy pseudo-clinical atmosphere that prevails in a lethal injection chamber.

271 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:49:27pm

re: #257 Bagua

A study showed an average of 195,000 Americans died annually in 2000, 2001, and 2002 because of in-hospital medical errors.

The doctors are not “guilty of murder” and non-medical professionals are most certainly not “guilty of murder”.

If a vastly smaller number of convicts are wrongly executed, then the justice personnel involved are not “guilty of murder” and the civilian population are most certainly not “guilty of murder”.

Hyperbole does not equal logic.

Nope. But the court system represents you as a citizen. Hair splitting doesn’t equal good public policy.

272 borgcube  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:49:52pm

re: #235 Shiplord Kirel

Where’s the sign-up sheet?

273 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:49:55pm

re: #262 austin_blue

Any man who is convicted and executed when actually innocent. It happens.

It is *your* court system. You are ultimately responsible, as a citizen.

Nonsense, those making the mistakes are responsible, beyond that those who supervise and regulate them are indirectly mistaken. Citizens bear zero responsibility for errors over which they have no influence.

274 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:50:37pm

re: #242 austin_blue

Thank you.

But I will still make the case that life and a day is most appropriate. Killing people for killing people is revenge, pure and simple. It’s not about deterrence.

I just wish these shooters would resist arrest a little more…

Many people believe, genuinely, that it is deterrence. I don’t in 99% of the time, but many do. Many also believe going to hell is worse than being in prison. I don’t (believe in hell) but many do. If I believed in hell I would probably be in favor of the death penalty.

The point is, your argument is doomed to failure because it addresses the wrong motivation. You need to work deeper than that.

275 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:52:43pm

re: #263 goddamnedfrank

Yes.it.is. be honest. It equates a legitimate personal feeling of emotion with an act of uncontrollable physical acting out. It is a very cheap and dishonest form of gotcha. You can disagree with him without putting words in his mouth.

Your too literal for your own good Mr. Frank. “Feeling a terrible sadness” and “sobbing” are closely related and hardly “cheap and dishonest”.

276 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:52:47pm

re: #270 Shiplord Kirel

I rather like the guillotine. It is admittedly messy and pretty tough emotionally on executioners and witnesses, but killing people should be an unpleasant experience. At the same time, the best evidence we have indicates that it is not significantly more painful than lethal injection and there is some evidence that it is not as painful. It also gets around that insanely creepy pseudo-clinical atmosphere that prevails in a lethal injection chamber.

If we’re going to start talking about the injustice of killing people then it should apply to collateral damage, wars, etc. No? Where do we draw the line? How can we be against the death penalty while supporting wars. One moral question does not negate the others. What is worse morally? A clinical lethal injection or a 2000 ponder in a populated area to take out a terrorist suspect?

I’m not answering those moral questions here by the way.

277 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:53:00pm

re: #267 Mich-again

I think it would make it easier for some, and harder for others.
Would there be a net change in the result?
I’m not sure, that there would be.

278 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:53:02pm

re: #242 austin_blue

I just wish these shooters would resist arrest a little more…

Uh, why?

279 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:53:11pm

Ever seen a survey asking pro lifers if they support the death penalty, and pro choice folks the same?

280 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:53:48pm

re: #278 solomonpanting

Heh. “bang”.

281 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:53:59pm

re: #276 Gus 802

Pounder!

To much Gallow wine. /

282 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:54:28pm

re: #273 Bagua

No influence? It would be impossible for citizens to vote in representatives who would vote to remove capital punishment. Is that a serious argument or are you simply being obtuse at this point?

Its very much possible for America to stop executing innocent people. Since a majority do not wish for this, I consider those deaths very much on their conscience.

283 Racer X  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:55:01pm

When I grow up… .

284 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:55:18pm

re: #278 solomonpanting

Uh, why?

figure it out sol…c’mon

285 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:55:18pm

re: #271 austin_blue

Nope. But the court system represents you as a citizen. Hair splitting doesn’t equal good public policy.

There is a big chasm between “hair splitting” and saying all citizens are “guilty of murder” because a few mistaken executions are carried out in jurisdictions in which they have zero influence.

It is a very minor and anomalous event hardly worth our consideration.

286 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:55:44pm

Coming up next. Miranda rights in Afghanistan…

…no…wait…

//

287 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:55:58pm

re: #279 Rightwingconspirator

Ever seen a survey asking pro lifers if they support the death penalty, and pro choice folks the same?

I have not.
I think that would be a very interesting thing.
Do you have a link to one?

288 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:56:30pm

re: #279 Rightwingconspirator

Ever seen a survey asking pro lifers if they support the death penalty, and pro choice folks the same?

one has nothing to do with the other

289 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:56:33pm

re: #280 Rightwingconspirator

Heh. “bang”.

re: #284 albusteve

figure it out sol…c’mon

I’d like to hear austin blue’s answer.

290 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:56:37pm

The new comment counter isn’t working for me. Anyone else having that problem?

291 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:56:55pm

re: #288 albusteve

one has nothing to do with the other

Concur.

292 borgcube  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:57:07pm

re: #290 Dark_Falcon

Yup.

293 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:57:12pm

re: #290 Dark_Falcon

For the last 20 minutes.

294 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:57:45pm

re: #285 Bagua

Says the man sitting comfortably off death row. I’m sure if the shoe was on the other foot I would hardly qualify as “a very minor and anomalous event hardly worth our consideration.” I think at the very least we can give the innocents who die in the name of justice some consideration.

295 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:58:23pm

re: #290 Dark_Falcon

The new comment counter isn’t working for me. Anyone else having that problem?

yes, I’ve got my tech crew on it…but their finishing their banana treats first

296 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:59:15pm

OT—American Muslims Launch Special Fund for the Benefit of Ft. Hood Attack Victims

297 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:59:25pm

re: #293 bosforus

For the last 20 minutes.

Longer than that for me.
Plus, I get bounced from the thread, every couple of posts or dings.
IIRC the last time it happened, it was some errant code in the thread title.

298 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:59:46pm

re: #268 McSpiff

Nor does your post equal logic. The only case discussed in which death was deliberate are the executions. If you don’t see the difference between accidental death to a medical error and accidental death due to wrongful conviction then you truly aren’t capable of judging the merits of capital punishment. Regardless of outcome or correctness death occurring during an execution is intentional. Death occurring on a operating table, no mater how negligent is not deliberate. If a Doctor was found to be deliberately killing patients he’d be tried for murder. If anything, your post supports the argument that judicial officials should be held accountable in the case of wrongful execution.

You miss the point. The doctors do not deliberately cause deaths through malpractice and the courts do not deliberately cause deaths though mistaken convictions. In both cases we have qualified professionals making mistakes which directly result in homicides.

In the case of medical mistakes we are talking about hundreds of thousands of wrongful deaths, in the case of the criminal justice systems we are talking about a small handful of cases.

The point being, non-involved citizens are not implicated in any of these mistakes, they a certainly not “guilty of murder”.

299 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:00:38pm

re: #297 Floral Giraffe

Longer than that for me.
Plus, I get bounced from the thread, every couple of posts or dings.
IIRC the last time it happened, it was some errant code in the thread title.

Yeah, is me too. Can’t see number of new comments, either.

300 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:00:56pm

re: #297 Floral Giraffe

Probably longer for me, too. I’m writing some code of my own code bos cave.
Time flies when you’re getting nowhere.

301 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:01:01pm

In that case Nidal Hasan killed 14 people thus far.

302 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:01:21pm

re: #300 bosforus

Probably longer for me, too. I’m writing some code of my own code in the bos cave.
Time flies when you’re getting nowhere.


See? My brain is fried!

303 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:01:45pm

re: #240 albusteve

no problem…is this a part time job?…I’ll take it

re: #243 Gus 802

Salary depending on experience. Must have BA in related field. Must know Microsoft Word, Powerpoint, Photoshop and Autocad 2010.

Ha ha.

Back in the time of Old Sparky, part of the execution ritual in Florida was that only the warden knew the identity of the executioner, the person who actually, physically threw the master switch. Before the execution, the warden would meet the executioner at an arranged spot, pay the statutory $200 executioner’s fee in crisp new bills, then drive the executioner to the prison. After pulling the switch, the hooded executioner waited alone until the warden was ready to return him to the meeting point.

A media outlet managed to learn the identities of several executioners but did not , of course, reveal them publicly. They did reveal, however, that the most active one, 35 executions in about two years, was an FSU student who was supplementing an academic scholarship with the execution fees.

304 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:01:46pm

re: #275 Bagua

Your too literal for your own good Mr. Frank. “Feeling a terrible sadness” and “sobbing” are closely related and hardly “cheap and dishonest”.

They are inherently different in that one is seen as ridicule worthy in an adult, the inability to control oneself, while the other is a legitimate point of view. I stand by my assessment, your manipulation was designed to paint the latter as the former, for cheap points, and was in no way interesting or illustrative of anything but your desire to belittle another Lizard for holding a view you disagree with.

305 SeaMonkey  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:01:48pm

re: #291 Dark_Falcon

Concur.

Disagree.

Pro-life, pro-death penalty = more government control over the individual

Pro-choice, anti-death-penalty = less government control over the individual

306 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:02:25pm

re: #294 McSpiff

Says the man sitting comfortably off death row. I’m sure if the shoe was on the other foot I would hardly qualify as “a very minor and anomalous event hardly worth our consideration.” I think at the very least we can give the innocents who die in the name of justice some consideration.

How many documented cases are you talking about in the US?

How many countries with a large population afford the extensive protections of the American justice system, both state and federal?

Mistakes happen, surely we should take every precaution to avoid them, but they are an exception and a tiny fraction of the negligent homicides that occur every year in America.

307 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:04:19pm

re: #304 goddamnedfrank

They are inherently different in that one is seen as ridicule worthy in an adult, the inability to control oneself, while the other is a legitimate point of view. I stand by my assessment, your manipulation was designed to paint the latter as the former, for cheap points, and was in no way interesting or illustrative of anything but your desire to belittle another Lizard for holding a view you disagree with.

You doth protest too much.

308 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:04:56pm

I don’t have an ounce of sympathy for this guy. His guilt was never in dispute.

Admittedly, if one of his victims had been someone I knew, I would probably have wanted to kill him myself.

I used to be a supporter of the death penalty; but I no longer believe the death penalty serves the cause of justice.

The main reason I believe this is because the death penalty, once carried out, is irreversible. I think the American system of jurisprudence is far too imperfect to be entrusted to determine who lives and who dies. I challenge each of you to pull up any Youtube video and read the comments. Having done so, consider that YOUR jury might consist entirely of the people who made those startlingly erudite comments.

In recent years, advances in forensic science have irrefutably proven more than a few people innocent of crimes for which they were sentenced to long jail terms. I’m pretty sure that, if we were ever to gut up and take a long, hard look, we would find that we have executed a lot of people who were not actually guilty of the crimes for which they were killed.

Finally, as an atheist, I do not believe in any sort of afterlife. I strongly suspect that the boundless passage of time after you die is, to you, exactly the same as the boundless passage of time before you were born. Remember how you felt during the reign of King Henry VIII? Right.

For that reason, I believe the death penalty is in actuality a lenient sentence. We all die eventually. A person executed by the state has merely been spared countless long years of regret, boredom, misery, and yearning. The sooner you turn them off like a light switch, the sooner you put an end to any possibility of mental torment. Consider.

309 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:05:35pm

re: #299 SanFranciscoZionist

HAH!
The ever so remotely technical Giraffe, is back, in a different browser. Let see if this is better.
LOL!

310 Racer X  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:05:56pm

Lady Gaga - Bad Romance

Youtube Video
311 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:06:44pm

re: #288 albusteve

There are life and death decisions in common. The circumstance varies, but the heart of the matter beats away. Life or not?

312 desertcynic  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:08:12pm

For four hours today, I sat in a courtroom to be seated on a felony one case with the death penalty. It was my fourth appearance for this case. Three were increasingly detailed pre-screenings. Today was the final seating and swearing in.

The defense and prosecution agreed to the 12 jurors and 6 alternates before my name was called. I was relieved. It’s a very heavy decision to have someone’s life in your hands.

I was surprised at the levity in the courtroom. The bailiff was joking around about having to serve two or more months on the jury. People laughed when someone was seated and then immediately dismissed.

I usually have a strong but warped sense of humor but I just couldn’t pal around when the accused was sitting right there. It was just a surreal experience. I guess I feel lucky to have escaped that particular service.

I’m not unhappy the VA shooter was executed. It’s just not so pleasant for those involved in the decision and punishment.

313 Mich-again  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:08:58pm

re: #288 albusteve

one has nothing to do with the other

Sure it does at least for some. The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty for the same reason it opposes abortion.

314 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:09:04pm

re: #276 Gus 802

If we’re going to start talking about the injustice of killing people then it should apply to collateral damage, wars, etc. No? Where do we draw the line? How can we be against the death penalty while supporting wars. One moral question does not negate the others. What is worse morally? A clinical lethal injection or a 2000 ponder in a populated area to take out a terrorist suspect?

I’m not answering those moral questions here by the way.

Nobody claims that death in war is justice, or that even enemy soldiers really and necessarily deserve to die in some moral sense. The difference is that the criminal justice system has options that don’t exist in a fight for survival.
In war, the enemy is not within our power. We have no choice but to use force, or submit to his will. That is not the case with a state prisoner. No condemned street thug of a murderer is going to institute a totalitarian state or revive the Holocaust simply because we choose to keep him locked away rather than killing him. Those things easily could happen if we, as a nation-state, are unwilling to resort to force and violence to stop them.

315 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:09:40pm

Well, i’ve got that nasty little
“error on page”
exclamation going on in the lower left corner.

Wonder how to kill it?
Yes, folks, that was a funny!

316 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:10:24pm

re: #311 Rightwingconspirator

There are life and death decisions in common. The circumstance varies, but the heart of the matter beats away. Life or not?

yes the circumstances vary…that’s the point…malice and a wicked heart

317 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:10:33pm

re: #312 desertcynic

Thanks for posting. That’s what I call a point of view that really needed to be ijn this thread. The abstract is so seductive. The real is sobering.

318 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:10:35pm

re: #306 Bagua
You want to take every precaution to ensure no one is wrongly executed? Abolish the death penalty. Anything else and you’re willing to kill innocent people.

319 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:12:14pm

re: #318 McSpiff

Issuing a license to fly to an Airline would be the same by your measure. It is certain accidents will happen, despite great effort to the contrary.

320 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:12:29pm

re: #313 Mich-again

Sure it does at least for some. The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty for the same reason it opposes abortion.

they are fundamentally wrong…and it’s academic since both are legal in our society

321 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:13:48pm

re: #319 Rightwingconspirator

I’ve never seen an accidental execution, have you? The sole outcome of an execution is death. The sole outcome of flying a plane is not a crash, and the sole outcome of operating on someone is not death.

322 Mich-again  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:15:20pm

re: #260 Floral Giraffe

This from one, who has served on more than 10 juries.

The last jury I sat on in Detroit at the Frank Murphy Hall of Injustice was about an alleged attempted shooting of a policeman. The Prosecuting attorney from the court waved exhibit “A” the rifle right at the jury box. I spoke up right there from the box and told him not to wave the rifle at us. Basic gun safety and all. He replied that the Detroit police department verified that the rifle wasn’t loaded and the whole courtroom broke into laughter. I wasn’t laughing. The judge got cheesed at me for saying anything.

323 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:15:51pm

re: #313 Mich-again

Sure it does at least for some. The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty for the same reason it opposes abortion.

“The seamless garment of Christ”!

(I have a friend who is a Christian theology student, and a passionate anti-death-penalty activist. I have been known to fall nose-first into my chai while hearing about the theology behind it all.)

324 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:16:16pm

re: #307 Bagua

You doth protest too much.

I see, so you’re going to bold select words in the hope they will help you insinuate a tu quoque argument that is quite obviously not supported by the facts. I notice that you are not even trying to address the point.

325 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:16:36pm

re: #314 Shiplord Kirel

Nobody claims that death in war is justice, or that even enemy soldiers really and necessarily deserve to die in some moral sense. The difference is that the criminal justice system has options that don’t exist in a fight for survival.
In war, the enemy is not within our power. We have no choice but to use force, or submit to his will. That is not the case with a state prisoner. No condemned street thug of a murderer is going to institute a totalitarian state or revive the Holocaust simply because we choose to keep him locked away rather than killing him. Those things easily could happen if we, as a nation-state, are unwilling to resort to force and violence to stop them.

Which means there are arguable states to justify death. If you quantify the murders such as those perpetrated by John Allen Muhammad and other mass murderers and in fact add in other murders you will find that more Americans have died domestically, at the hands of our own citizens, then those that were killed by foreign terrorists. Surely that justifies an equal application of capital punishment.

326 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:17:10pm

re: #321 McSpiff

I’ve never seen an accidental execution, have you? The sole outcome of an execution is death. The sole outcome of flying a plane is not a crash, and the sole outcome of operating on someone is not death.

Exactly. The death penalty is a matter of choice. We could abolish it at will. We cannot abolish plane crashes and medical errors at will for the obvious reason that (usually) nobody has consciously chosen for these things to happen.

327 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:17:50pm

Comment #’s are back. Hooray!

328 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:18:34pm

re: #308 negativ


I used to be a supporter of the death penalty; but I no longer believe the death penalty serves the cause of justice.

The main reason I believe this is because the death penalty, once carried out, is irreversible.

I am not so concerned with the irreversibility, as our system takes exceptional care to address that (unlike many governments that have the death penalty, most being our adversaries if not enemies).

I simply believe that we should not take life when we don’t have to, and that principle alone would make a more powerful statement of principle of deterrence than the revenge one; to the extent that any killer ever thinks of such things, which most probably don’t regardless of what the consequences are.

Punishment, on the other hand, I don’t have objection to. Take that as you will.

329 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:18:46pm

re: #322 Mich-again

The last jury I sat on in Detroit at the Frank Murphy Hall of Injustice was about an alleged attempted shooting of a policeman. The Prosecuting attorney from the court waved exhibit “A” the rifle right at the jury box. I spoke up right there from the box and told him not to wave the rifle at us. Basic gun safety and all. He replied that the Detroit police department verified that the rifle wasn’t loaded and the whole courtroom broke into laughter. I wasn’t laughing. The judge got cheesed at me for saying anything.

fuck them…I walked out of a hate crime selection…they all freaked out and told me I was jeaprodizing the system…I told them the system was fucked up and kept walking…they threatened me with contempt and I just laughed at them…they let me go

330 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:19:02pm

re: #322 Mich-again

I was part of a jury selection group. The judge kept asking potential jurors to say “why they couldn’t be on this jury”. I asked to be excused, and asked to approach the bench, with the 2 sides lawyers, to give my reason. The judge told me to say it from my seat.
He wanted to read me the riot act, after he had to dismiss the 300 potential jurors in the courtroom that had heard my statement.
I told him it was his fault & he had no business haranguing me.

331 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:19:47pm

re: #325 Gus 802

Except that American citizens have constitutional rights and foreign combatants don’t. So if you’re willing to overlook basic law and common sense, they’re identical.

332 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:20:31pm

re: #330 Floral Giraffe

re: #329 albusteve

re: #322 Mich-again

Man, we’ve got some good jury duty stories here!

333 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:20:37pm

re: #318 McSpiff

You want to take every precaution to ensure no one is wrongly executed? Abolish the death penalty. Anything else and you’re willing to kill innocent people.

And by that standard, yes I am willing to do that. If the need is very great, then I do accept the unintentional killing of the innocent. And I can’t stomach the idea of sparing 400 murderers just to save 1 person’s life. Sorry, but that is how I think.

334 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:21:07pm

re: #331 McSpiff

Except that American citizens have constitutional rights and foreign combatants don’t. So if you’re willing to overlook basic law and common sense, they’re identical.

I can accept that. Then it’s not a moral question regarding death but one of legality and statute.

335 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:21:19pm

re: #245 austin_blue

Then you are guilty of murder. Okay with that?

One other point.
There have numerous cases of murders being sentenced to life, only to kill other prisoners or guards while serving their sentences.
Okay with that?

336 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:21:24pm

re: #318 McSpiff

You want to take every precaution to ensure no one is wrongly executed? Abolish the death penalty. Anything else and you’re willing to kill innocent people.

So by your reasoning if I want to take every precaution to eliminate the hundreds of thousands of people wrongly killed by medical mistakes I should seek to abolish the practice of medicine? Anything else and I’m “willing to kill innocent people”. Eh?

337 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:21:25pm

re: #321 McSpiff

The innocent accidentally convicted would be my comparison. The sole outcome of the trial is not guilty, let alone death. Setting this analogy aside-
My point is we agree to many systems with life or death risk, each regulated and examined as well as we see fit. We order military men to risk of death, to defend our society. If we can ask the innocent to die for the nation, why not the guilty?

338 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:21:28pm

May I just comment that the website “Stuff White People Like” continues to be totally funny?

339 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:21:35pm

re: #270 Shiplord Kirel

I rather like the guillotine. It is admittedly messy and pretty tough emotionally on executioners and witnesses, but killing people should be an unpleasant experience. At the same time, the best evidence we have indicates that it is not significantly more painful than lethal injection and there is some evidence that it is not as painful. It also gets around that insanely creepy pseudo-clinical atmosphere that prevails in a lethal injection chamber.

I also think the guillotine is the most humane method of execution, even more so than lethal injection if the condemned is a drug addict which makes finding a suitable vein a very long and painful process.. The only drawback is that it is very messy, but nothing that high-powered hoses and specially constructed drains can’t handle.

340 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:21:54pm

re: #332 bosforus

They’re ALL good jury duty stories!
Stories of folks doing their part to keep the American System working.
It takes everyone.
Well, mostly.

Got a story of your own to tell?

341 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:22:20pm

re: #332 bosforus

re: #329 albusteve

re: #322 Mich-again

Man, we’ve got some good jury duty stories here!

I got out of jury duty once. The last words from the judge was “get the hell out of here before I change my mind.”

342 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:22:25pm

re: #324 goddamnedfrank

I see, so you’re going to bold select words in the hope they will help you insinuate a tu quoque argument that is quite obviously not supported by the facts. I notice that you are not even trying to address the point.

{gaze}

343 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:23:14pm

re: #332 bosforus

re: #329 albusteve

re: #322 Mich-again

Man, we’ve got some good jury duty stories here!

I hate authority…I’m just not the type to sit through some stupid transvestite murder/gay ‘hate crime’…I have better things to do with my life…rules and regs just piss me off

344 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:23:15pm

re: #330 Floral Giraffe

I was part of a jury selection group. The judge kept asking potential jurors to say “why they couldn’t be on this jury”. I asked to be excused, and asked to approach the bench, with the 2 sides lawyers, to give my reason. The judge told me to say it from my seat.
He wanted to read me the riot act, after he had to dismiss the 300 potential jurors in the courtroom that had heard my statement.
I told him it was his fault & he had no business haranguing me.

Why keep us in suspense? What did you say?

345 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:25:02pm

re: #340 Floral Giraffe

I got my jury duty notice in the mail a week before I left the country for two years for my Mormon mission. I don’t think I even bothered to reply to tell them that.
The lengths I went to!

346 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:25:09pm

re: #332 bosforus

re: #329 albusteve

re: #322 Mich-again

Man, we’ve got some good jury duty stories here!

My college chaplain used to evade jury duty by telling people, truthfully, that she was a Baptist minister, and believed that only God could judge a human being. Apparently no one wanted to go any further with her once they heard that, and got a look at the hippie sandals and the very sincere eyes.

On the other hand, the newly fledged American who used to be in the cubicle next to mine was enthusiastic about jury duty, until they started calling her every three months. She planned an elaborate scheme where she was going to explain that she felt her English was inadquate to the nuances of a court case. Unfortunately, as I explained, the fact that she could get that idea across in English pretty much invalidated the whole idea.

347 desertcynic  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:25:32pm

re: #330 Floral Giraffe

Three people who were about to be sworn in today raised their hands and asked to be excused because they were on unemployment and they didn’t want to endanger that and they needed to look for a job. The judge said he thought unemployment had to continue while serving on a jury. The judge also asked why they hadn’t filled that in on the previous questionnaire. The answers were unclear: situation worsened, didn’t understand the form, possibly just received a job offer, needed training for a job. A woman juror disagreed with the judge about unemployment compensation, said she was told something else, and ultimately four of the acceptable 12 jurors were let go. One said his house was in foreclosure and he would lose it halfway through the trial and would have to move so he couldn’t sit on a jury.

So the selection process continued. Finally 12 + 6 were sworn in.

Once again, those with jobs carried the rest of the group by agreeing to serve.

348 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:28:50pm

re: #344 Naso Tang

It was a long, involved case, where the bottom line was, a man’s arm had been severed at the shoulder. The defendants were the driver of the car, owner of the parking lot next door, lesee of said parking lot, manufacturer of the saw… ad nauseum.
The defense attorney’s position was, that the claimant had already received a bunch of settlements, and didn’t deserve any more.

I said, he can’t ever hug his child with both arms.
I can’t be impartial on this jury.

349 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:29:06pm

re: #325 Gus 802

Which means there are arguable states to justify death. If you quantify the murders such as those perpetrated by John Allen Muhammad and other mass murderers and in fact add in other murders you will find that more Americans have died domestically, at the hands of our own citizens, then those that were killed by foreign terrorists. Surely that justifies an equal application of capital punishment.

Of course there are arguable states to justify death. Neither Austin Blue nor I was arguing from a general opposition to killing. He was a nuclear bomber crewman, for heaven’s sake. I am a retired army officer.

That being so, what are the consequences of not carrying out the death penalty? Are they as severe as the failure to resist foreign enemies? There are countries that have abolished the death penalty, such as Sweden and Canada, that still maintain strong armed forces. They have not been destroyed by rampaging mobs of common-law murderers, far from it, but they still believe (I think correctly) that lethal force is justified under other, very different, circumstances.
One key to this difference may lie in the word “force” itself. War is force, we want to persuade the enemy to do something or stop doing something. An execution is violence and death but it is not force. There is nothing we want to persuade the accused to do except stop living. He is helpless, completely within our power, and we have a choice of what to do with him.

350 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:29:10pm

re: #343 albusteve

I hate authority…I’m just not the type to sit through some stupid transvestite murder/gay ‘hate crime’…I have better things to do with my life…rules and regs just piss me off

Someone was killed?

351 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:29:59pm

re: #345 bosforus

I got my jury duty notice in the mail a week before I left the country for two years for my Mormon mission. I don’t think I even bothered to reply to tell them that.
The lengths I went to!

Where did you mission to?

352 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:30:04pm

re: #340 Floral Giraffe

They’re ALL good jury duty stories!
Stories of folks doing their part to keep the American System working.
It takes everyone.
Well, mostly.

Got a story of your own to tell?

Yeah, I actually have only been called to jury duty once and showed up (the second time I ignored it due the Christmas season at work). That first time I was actually picked for a jury in a relatively small civil case. It wasn’t a problem for me. If I was ever in the pool for a long trial I’d probably bring my ADHD diagnosis. If that failed, I’d just tell the judge honestly to just cite me for contempt right now and get it over with.

353 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:30:34pm

re: #336 Bagua

If every time someone walked into an operating room they died, I’d highly suggest people stop walking into operating rooms.

I’ll also give you this argument: If you, Bagua personally decide that having surgery is an unreasonable risk, or that flying in planes is an unreasonable risk you can choose to not partake in that activity. This is true for literally everything in America, assuming the draft is not reinstated. You are totally allowed to sit at home, order pizza from the internet and never leave your house. Assuming you have the money to do so.

Any risk you take on is purely that of your own doing.

However, you can be wrongfully convicted and executed based on no personal wrong doing. There is no way to take personal responsibility. That to me is a key difference.

PS: I realize in some situations you can be given medical treatment without consent. But I still stand by my overall argument.

354 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:31:01pm

Yes, it’s an imperfect process.
But, like Democracy, folks, it
BEATS THE ALTERNATIVES!

355 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:31:13pm

re: #348 Floral Giraffe

manufacturer of the saw…

Oh dear, never mind…

356 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:31:30pm

re: #351 SanFranciscoZionist

Where did you mission to?

Neuquen, Argentina and everything south in Argentina. I’ll get around to scanning in some photos one of these days.

357 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:32:13pm

Sorry but, if a suspect comes shuffling into the courtroom and keeps quiet he or she is guilty. If an innocent man was brought into a courtroom and was innocent he should be crying and announcing his innocence at the very least.re: #347 desertcynic

It’s nearly impossible to get freelance people to serve on a jury. Those that have a regular job will get reimbursed. The judges and the attorneys will get payed through the teeth. If they want a more diverse jury pool they should raise the compensation level to at least 200 dollars a day per juror. The attorneys get more than that per hour.

358 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:32:22pm

re: #356 bosforus

Neuquen, Argentina and everything south in Argentina. I’ll get around to scanning in some photos one of these days.

That sounds like a nice place. Are there a lot of Mormons in Argentina?

359 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:32:47pm

re: #336 Bagua

So by your reasoning if I want to take every precaution to eliminate the hundreds of thousands of people wrongly killed by medical mistakes I should seek to abolish the practice of medicine? Anything else and I’m “willing to kill innocent people”. Eh?

Thank you for stating the choices so starkly. The next step is to compare the consequences of abolishing the death penalty to those of abolishing the practice of medicine.

360 desertcynic  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:33:10pm

re: #352 Dark_Falcon

The jurors who didn’t show up at the pre-screening were fined $5,000 each. Every juror showed up today for final trial selection but if they did not, a warrant would have been issued for their arrest.

Pretty serious stuff.

361 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:33:34pm

re: #333 Dark_Falcon

And by that standard, yes I am willing to do that. If the need is very great, then I do accept the unintentional killing of the innocent. And I can’t stomach the idea of sparing 400 murderers just to save 1 person’s life. Sorry, but that is how I think.

Oops, by some bureaucratic comedy of incompetence, your child (or spouse, or yourself) has come to be one of the innocent eggs we must break in order to make the omelet.

I’m sure you would have some inspirational words to share with your kid under such a circumstance. Hopefully you will share them with us.

362 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:33:42pm

I got called for jury duty. I was very, very pregnant when I showed up that day. Heck, I never even got to go into the court room ‘cause a clerk took one look at me and told me to go home.

363 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:34:16pm

re: #350 SanFranciscoZionist

Someone was killed?

yes, stabbed with a butcher knife…two trannies, drunk, fighting over a 17 year old gay kid for sex…they wanted to prosecute it as a hate crime because the victim was a transvestite…but so was the perp…what a sick joke

364 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:34:48pm

re: #357 Gus 802

…guilty until proven innocent?

365 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:35:19pm

re: #363 albusteve

yes, stabbed with a butcher knife…two trannies, drunk, fighting over a 17 year old gay kid for sex…they wanted to prosecute it as a hate crime because the victim was a transvestite…but so was the perp…what a sick joke

It still sounds to me as though society might have had a vested interest in having a trial.

366 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:35:36pm

re: #358 SanFranciscoZionist

That sounds like a nice place. Are there a lot of Mormons in Argentina?

Quite a few. As of October 15th, 2009: 371,885
They are mostly north of Neuquen (Buenos Aires, Cordoba) where most of Argentina’s population is.

367 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:35:40pm

re: #356 bosforus

Neuquen, Argentina and everything south in Argentina. I’ll get around to scanning in some photos one of these days.

good for you…

368 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:35:46pm

re: #357 Gus 802

Sorry but, if a suspect comes shuffling into the courtroom and keeps quiet he or she is guilty. If an innocent man was brought into a courtroom and was innocent he should be crying and announcing his innocence at the very least.

It’s nearly impossible to get freelance people to serve on a jury. Those that have a regular job will get reimbursed. The judges and the attorneys will get payed through the teeth. If they want a more diverse jury pool they should raise the compensation level to at least 200 dollars a day per juror. The attorneys get more than that per hour.

I always wondered how the OJ jury paid their bills. Were they all on welfare or retired?

369 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:37:28pm

re: #367 albusteve

good for you…

It was very good for me on many levels. The poverty some people in this world live in. Coming back into LAX and seeing all the huge American flags was an unforgettable feeling.

370 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:37:44pm

re: #357 Gus 802

Sorry but, if a suspect comes shuffling into the courtroom and keeps quiet he or she is guilty. If an innocent man was brought into a courtroom and was innocent he should be crying and announcing his innocence at the very least.

It’s nearly impossible to get freelance people to serve on a jury. Those that have a regular job will get reimbursed. The judges and the attorneys will get payed through the teeth. If they want a more diverse jury pool they should raise the compensation level to at least 200 dollars a day per juror. The attorneys get more than that per hour.

I agree with that second paragraph but not the first. Even if you are innocent, the wise thing is to keep quiet and let your lawyer handle things. If things get so far as you are put on trial, your objective is acquittal, not vindication. Trust the experts and follow the plan. (I don’t share albusteve’s dislike of authority.)

371 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:38:19pm

re: #365 SanFranciscoZionist

It still sounds to me as though society might have had a vested interest in having a trial.

it was the hate crime fiasco that did it…I just walked out

372 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:39:02pm

re: #364 McSpiff

…guilty until proven innocent?

Guilty doesn’t apply since I’m not in the jury. But yes in my case since I’m biased in that regard. I know that makes for another case in our society. Always wanting to put people in prison even for not buying health insurance yet wanting to weep for the sniper.

373 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:40:04pm

re: #370 Dark_Falcon

I agree with that second paragraph but not the first. Even if you are innocent, the wise thing is to keep quiet and let your lawyer handle things. If things get so far as you are put on trial, your objective is acquittal, not vindication. Trust the experts and follow the plan. (I don’t share albusteve’s dislike of authority.)

Cool. I actually share Steve’s dislike of authority.

374 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:40:05pm

re: #355 Naso Tang

Oh dear, never mind…

It was attached to the wall, that the driver of the car, backed into. It was supposedly “secure” when attached properly…

375 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:40:14pm

re: #369 bosforus

It was very good for me on many levels. The poverty some people in this world live in. Coming back into LAX and seeing all the huge American flags was an unforgettable feeling.

I’ve spent a lot of time own in Jamaica…poverty is a normal state of being

376 desertcynic  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:40:18pm

re: #357 Gus 802

Sorry but, if a suspect comes shuffling into the courtroom and keeps quiet he or she is guilty. If an innocent man was brought into a courtroom and was innocent he should be crying and announcing his innocence at the very least.


Gus, by the time the accused sees the first potential juror, he or she has been in the courtroom a zillion times. This particular trial, seating the jury today, was from a crime committed in 2003. To maintain a sense of outrage or crying or wild protestation for 6 years straight would require more energy than most individuals can muster.

377 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:40:23pm

re: #353 McSpiff

If every time someone walked into an operating room they died, I’d highly suggest people stop walking into operating rooms.

I’ll also give you this argument: If you, Bagua personally decide that having surgery is an unreasonable risk, or that flying in planes is an unreasonable risk you can choose to not partake in that activity. This is true for literally everything in America, assuming the draft is not reinstated. You are totally allowed to sit at home, order pizza from the internet and never leave your house. Assuming you have the money to do so.

Any risk you take on is purely that of your own doing.

However, you can be wrongfully convicted and executed based on no personal wrong doing. There is no way to take personal responsibility. That to me is a key difference.

PS: I realize in some situations you can be given medical treatment without consent. But I still stand by my overall argument.

Any consent to medical treatment is not a consent to malpractice. One can be misdiagnosed and needlessly submitted to incorrect medical procedures. But no, they are not identical, yet very valid to illustrate the question of personal liability for others mistakes.

It also illustrates the mistaken concern people have. On the once case, a very rare and unusual mistake, a wrongful execution. On the other, a very common and prevalent mistake, medical errors resulting in deaths.

Personally I’m not that bothered by rare events that affect very few people, and very concerned about the prevalent mistakes that affect hundreds of thousands.

378 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:40:31pm

re: #369 bosforus

But the lakeside view apartment I had for a few months in Bariloche was also unforgettable. :)

379 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:41:06pm

re: #361 negativ

Oops, by some bureaucratic comedy of incompetence, your child (or spouse, or yourself) has come to be one of the innocent eggs we must break in order to make the omelet.

I’m sure you would have some inspirational words to share with your kid under such a circumstance. Hopefully you will share them with us.

It is my firm intention to never have children. Were it me that had to pay that price, I would accept it. Ultimately, I’m expendable. If I have to be expended to get rid of a host of murders, so be it.

380 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:41:30pm

re: #375 albusteve

Indeed. And Argentina is considered “well off” by Latin American standards.

381 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:41:31pm

re: #376 desertcynic

re: #357 Gus 802

Sorry but, if a suspect comes shuffling into the courtroom and keeps quiet he or she is guilty. If an innocent man was brought into a courtroom and was innocent he should be crying and announcing his innocence at the very least.

Gus, by the time the accused sees the first potential juror, he or she has been in the courtroom a zillion times. This particular trial, seating the jury today, was from a crime committed in 2003. To maintain a sense of outrage or crying or wild protestation for 6 years straight would require more energy than most individuals can muster.

Like I said. Pick someone else.

382 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:42:53pm

re: #377 Bagua

Fair enough. I’ll leave the topic here. I truly hope you never end up in the desperate situation that you so causally dismiss. I also hope you learn someday to have multiple concerns.

383 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:43:10pm

re: #370 Dark_Falcon

I agree with that second paragraph but not the first. Even if you are innocent, the wise thing is to keep quiet and let your lawyer handle things. If things get so far as you are put on trial, your objective is acquittal, not vindication. Trust the experts and follow the plan. (I don’t share albusteve’s dislike of authority.)

you have not lived my life…I have reasons for the way I feel, and I doubt are lives are at all similar except we both post here…I’m a natural born outlaw

384 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:43:33pm

re: #383 albusteve

you have not lived my life…I have reasons for the way I feel, and I doubt are lives are at all similar except we both post here…I’m a natural born outlaw

Fuck Treasury.

385 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:44:38pm

re: #360 desertcynic

The jurors who didn’t show up at the pre-screening were fined $5,000 each. Every juror showed up today for final trial selection but if they did not, a warrant would have been issued for their arrest.

Pretty serious stuff.

Nothing happened to me for not showing up. As it was, had I been able to show up, I would have. However, I did mean what I said about simply refusing to serve in a long case. I would not be able to do it, and I don’t fight battles I can’t win. Better to just admit the facts and accept the consequences straightaway.

386 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:45:07pm

My Dad worked for a government contractor ( IE, unlimited jury duty, with pay) and was on a horrific murder/homicide/domestic violence case where the husband got drunk & took a knife to the wife, who took a knife in self defense & killed the husband.

My Dad was forever changed by the pictures & the trial.
Things he would never have seen, or thought of in his life,
were it not for jury duty.

387 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:46:42pm

re: #359 Shiplord Kirel

Thank you for stating the choices so starkly. The next step is to compare the consequences of abolishing the death penalty to those of abolishing the practice of medicine.

A partial analogy doesn’t require going to ridiculous extremes. The point was whether or not uninvolved citizens bore personal “guilt” for the mistakes of professionals that resulted in wrongful deaths. The events are otherwise unrelated as should be obvious.

My example did not address “abolishing” executions or medicine, they are both good for public health in my opinion, so I would not want to stop either.

388 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:47:37pm

Speaking of jury duty:

I was last summoned for jury duty about 4 years ago. During voir dire, it became rather apparent that this was going to be a sexual battery case that hinged upon whether or not the female party might have changed her mind as to “consent” at the last minute.

As it happened, the defendant in this case did not speak English very well, and as such relied upon an interpreter whispering things into his ear.

His public defender was beyond embarrassing. While the prosecution asked each potential juror very pointed questions, the defendant’s lawyer decided to ask us all what our favorite TV show was. At that moment, I realized that there was absolutely no way I could give this guy a fair trial, because I was suddenly pre-disposed to assume that his lawyer was the dumbest dumb-ass that ever dumb-assed.

389 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:47:45pm

re: #383 albusteve

you have not lived my life…I have reasons for the way I feel, and I doubt are lives are at all similar except we both post here…I’m a natural born outlaw

Agreed.

390 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:48:25pm

re: #384 Gus 802

Fuck Treasury.

I have, but they got me first, and good…I’m a fairly honest citizen, not some reckless freak out to screw everybody I can…I’ve picked my fights and consider myself about even…so does the IRS…it seems we have an agreement right now…that has nothing to do with my life as a friend or a neighbor…I want as little to do with all of that as possible…it’s not for everyone

391 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:49:00pm

It’s funny. How we go from opposing the execution of the animal John Allen Muhammad to defending the status quo.

392 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:50:40pm

re: #390 albusteve

My recently departed, dearly loved Uncle, felt as you do, about the Treasury. Infernal revenue. Be well, and please, don’t let it turn into the obsession, that he did.

393 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:54:42pm

re: #390 albusteve

I have, but they got me first, and good…I’m a fairly honest citizen, not some reckless freak out to screw everybody I can…I’ve picked my fights and consider myself about even…so does the IRS…it seems we have an agreement right now…that has nothing to do with my life as a friend or a neighbor…I want as little to do with all of that as possible…it’s not for everyone

Glad you made it. They will go out of their way to destroy you financially. Ironically they will even damage your credit so much to inhibit your ability to repay them.

And these are the same people that will be partially in charge of tracking your health care insurance that we are all supposed to be happy about.

394 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:56:30pm

re: #392 Floral Giraffe

My recently departed, dearly loved Uncle, felt as you do, about the Treasury. Infernal revenue. Be well, and please, don’t let it turn into the obsession, that he did.

too late for that…but I have not had tax problems for a couple of years now…I’m living off the land, so to speak…a lot of people here would not approve of how I live and get over the feds…but they work for me, not the other way around

395 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:57:16pm

re: #388 negativ

I had a prostitution case where the defendants (having done the 5 things necessarily acted upon to proceed to prosecution) used translators “because they didn’t speak the language”, used the “we were meeting our girlfriends for dinner, we coulnd’t have done this” defense, and YES! “”My mother would not have raised a child to do this” AND CALLED THEIR MOTHER TO THE STAND.

Um, can we just be done with this?
Can you just fine them & let us go?
QUICKLY, PLEASE!

r-i-d-i-c-u-l-u-o-s

396 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:57:18pm

re: #394 albusteve

too late for that…but I have not had tax problems for a couple of years now…I’m living off the land, so to speak…a lot of people here would not approve of how I live and get over the feds…but they work for me, not the other way around

Hi Ranger…

397 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:59:16pm

re: #393 Gus 802

Glad you made it. They will go out of their way to destroy you financially. Ironically they will even damage your credit so much to inhibit your ability to repay them.

And these are the same people that will be partially in charge of tracking your health care insurance that we are all supposed to be happy about.

the Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away…I’m not afraid of those bots

398 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:00:35pm

re: #396 Walter L. Newton

Hi Ranger…

how’s your leg?…someone asked you to break it recently

399 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:01:42pm

A professor of mine, a Scott, and no fool, called the death penalty

“Basic Social Hygiene.”

That’s true, IMHO, and over time it surely has bettered the human race.

Good night all.

400 Fionn MacCumhaill  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:01:42pm

The DC sniper is gone. Good.

401 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:01:53pm

re: #398 albusteve

how’s your leg?…someone asked you to break it recently

Oops… that’s what happened.

Just got in from rehearsal, probably going to bed in a few minutes. Just wanted to check in with my friends.

402 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:02:38pm

re: #397 albusteve

the Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away…I’m not afraid of those bots

So many bills. So little time. Hard to keep up especially in this non-economy.

403 Gus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:03:44pm

Good night all.

404 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:03:45pm

re: #401 Walter L. Newton

Oops… that’s what happened.

Just got in from rehearsal, probably going to bed in a few minutes. Just wanted to check in with my friends.

that would be me

405 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:04:25pm

re: #401 Walter L. Newton

Oops… that’s what happened.

Just got in from rehearsal, probably going to bed in a few minutes. Just wanted to check in with my friends.

Did things go well?

406 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:05:40pm

re: #405 Dark_Falcon

Did things go well?

Yes, good rehearsal. Preview is Thursday, open on Friday, run till Dec. 20th, that’s about as much Christmas cheer as I can take.

407 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:06:15pm

re: #404 albusteve

that would be me

Send me an update when you get a chance about things, you know what I mean, email…

408 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:06:30pm

Ok all… to bed…

409 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:07:32pm

re: #403 Gus 802
Fare thee well, Gus of the 401 X 2 persuasion!

410 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:07:47pm

re: #406 Walter L. Newton

Yes, good rehearsal. Preview is Thursday, open on Friday, run till Dec. 20th, that’s about as much Christmas cheer as I can take.

Humbug.

411 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:08:47pm

re: #410 Sharmuta

Humbug.

what a a Grinch eh?
jus kiding

412 andie333  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:09:04pm

Excellent.

413 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:09:30pm

OK, LAST bad jury story from me…
I was seated on a panel of jurors, to decide a case tha twent like this…
The woman was suing a bank, becuase she had (through her daughter) made an offer to buy a house for the asking price. The offer was made the day AFTER the bank had foreclosed on the house. She was suing the BANK to honor the offer she had made to THE PREVIOUS OWNER of the house.

Every time she got to the stand we had 2-3 minutes of sobbing testimony, then her Dr. came out & gave her a sedative.
Jury dismissed for the day.

It was the most worthless thing, I have ever seen.
It was dismissed in less than 15 minutes, once it was given to the jury.

I must confess, to dating a LOT of cute lawyers during this trial…
Still, a waste of ‘the system’s” time!

414 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:09:37pm

re: #408 Walter L. Newton

Good night, Walter of the Newtonian persuasion.

415 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:10:32pm
416 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:12:14pm

re: #415 Dion

And, aren’t you just, special?

417 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:12:15pm

re: #415 Dion

GFY.

418 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:12:37pm

re: #415 Dion

Bravo, Dion. Bravo.

419 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:12:56pm
420 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:13:23pm

Pretty quickly poofed, that nasty troll!

421 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:13:43pm

re: #415 Dion

Do we need to call a specialist to find Stinky’s foot in your ass?

422 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:13:47pm

#419 should go in the can

423 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:14:04pm

re: #419 albusteve

Do not quote the trolls!

424 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:14:50pm

re: #423 Floral Giraffe

Do not quote the trolls!

a severe weakness…I’m working on it

425 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:15:18pm

Awww…I missed it. Was it at least an entertaining one?

426 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:15:27pm

Does that get counted as a flounce or just just a stupid meltdown?

427 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:15:51pm

“What is happening here today? Are douchebags falling from the sky?”

*thud* #419

“Si El Guapo.”

428 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:15:53pm

re: #426 Dark_Falcon

Does that get counted as a flounce or just just a stupid meltdown?

What was the frothy issue?

429 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:16:02pm

re: #425 Fenway_Nation

Awww…I missed it. Was it at least an entertaining one?

wordy…the worst kind

430 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:16:20pm

re: #424 albusteve

LOL!
Hope you are feeling fine?
Wish you nothing but the best.

431 freetoken  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:16:46pm

re: #426 Dark_Falcon

Not sure the taxonomy has been defined tightly enough to distinguish them.

432 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:16:48pm

re: #425 Fenway_Nation

Awww…I missed it. Was it at least an entertaining one?

That was pretty epic too. President of Sharmuta’s fan club apparently.

433 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:16:56pm

re: #425 Fenway_Nation

Awww…I missed it. Was it at least an entertaining one?

No, it was just some asshole insulting Sharmuta. Stinkey gave the jerk short shrift.

434 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:16:57pm

re: #425 Fenway_Nation

Awww…I missed it. Was it at least an entertaining one?

blah blah blah Sharmuta blah blah blah liberals blah blah blah dKos blah blah blah [swatted by Stinky]

435 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:17:31pm

re: #426 Dark_Falcon

Does that get counted as a flounce or just just a stupid meltdown?

He and I had more than a few fights in the lounge, so that explains the first half. He was always an asshole, so that explains the rest.

436 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:17:48pm

re: #426 Dark_Falcon

Stupid melty from a long dormant one…
ZERO on the clever or creative scale.
Seriously.

437 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:18:08pm

I’m running out of Red Forman’s “foot-in-ass” comments for these clowns.

438 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:18:42pm

re: #425 Fenway_Nation

Awww…I missed it. Was it at least an entertaining one?

Pretty dull…accused Sharmuta of running the place…compared us to Daily Kos and the Jim Jones cult.

439 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:18:54pm

re: #429 albusteve

wordy…the worst kind

Yep,
More words mean less.

440 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:19:30pm

re: #438 Shiplord Kirel

Pretty dull…accused Sharmuta of running the place…compared us to Daily Kos and the Jim Jones cult.

Wait. I though Killgore ran the place???
/

441 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:19:42pm

re: #430 Floral Giraffe

LOL!
Hope you are feeling fine?
Wish you nothing but the best.

very slow progress…but I have a triathlon coming up I gotta be ready for, three time around Mt Hood…thanks

442 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:20:03pm

re: #435 Sharmuta

You know, for all that the lounge has a bad ‘rep. I never saw any of it.
Maybe it was the time of day, maybe I wasn’t “aware” of the animosity.
Geeze, it sure came out into the sunlight, once the lounge was gone.
Bye bye, stinkers!

443 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:21:18pm

I OBJECT!

444 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:21:29pm

Just downloaded about 50 short horror stories to my iPod from librivox, which is a website of volunteered readings of books in the public domain. At a quick glance I saw some Poe, and some Kipling. Should keep me entertained for a while.
Now it’s time to power down for the night. Good night, all!

445 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:21:40pm

re: #443 albusteve

I OBJECT!

In bed.

446 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:22:38pm

re: #435 Sharmuta

He and I had more than a few fights in the lounge, so that explains the first half. He was always an asshole, so that explains the rest.

Works for me. The good news is that the stalker blog is down right now, so that loser won’t even be able to brag about how he was “banned for telling the truth” or however stalker trolls justify their actions. Instead he’ll just be left to pound his head against his desk in frustration at having lost his account at one of the best blog around because he felt like being an ass. Good riddance, Dion, I won’t miss you.

447 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:23:29pm

re: #440 Varek Raith

Wait. I though Killgore ran the place???
/

Since we’re all Charles’ sock puppets, we all run the place.

448 Clemente  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:23:37pm

Dang! Missed ‘nother one. Like a stock rally or bar fight, always happens just before I rolled in, or a minute after I checked out…

449 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:24:06pm

It is so weird the way some of these losers focus their frothy anger on Sharmuta.

They pick one of the most considerate and polite forum members to attack, just bizarre.

450 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:24:30pm

re: #449 Bagua

*blush*

451 Clemente  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:25:19pm

re: #440 Varek Raith

Wait. I though Killgore ran the place???
/

When Sharm and Mandy let him, absolutely!

452 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:25:36pm

re: #448 Clemente

Really, you didn’t miss anything.
Just another loser in the game of life!

453 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:26:05pm

re: #450 Sharmuta

*blush*

Looks good on you!

454 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:26:42pm

re: #449 Bagua

It is so weird the way some of these losers focus their frothy anger on Sharmuta.

They pick one of the most considerate and polite forum members to attack, just bizarre.

I’d drink with Sharmuta

455 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:28:17pm

re: #446 Dark_Falcon

Works for me. The good news is that the stalker blog is down right now, so that loser won’t even be able to brag about how he was “banned for telling the truth” or however stalker trolls justify their actions. […]

Apparently active at an alternative IP, not that I give a hoot about those tossers.

This site is protected by trademark and the stalkers were infringing.

456 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:28:51pm

Lizards are the best. I love you guys and gals.

457 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:28:56pm

re: #447 Sharmuta

Since we’re all Charles’ sock puppets, we all run the place.

Hello. I’m Charles’ 29475th sock puppet.

458 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:32:21pm

re: #446 Dark_Falcon

It’s moved to well… a domain name using the dumb made up word they use to describe their anything goes madhouse.

459 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:34:31pm

re: #449 Bagua

It is so weird the way some of these losers focus their frothy anger on Sharmuta.

They pick one of the most considerate and polite forum members to attack, just bizarre.

It has to do with dislike of what they might think of as “uppity broads” I think.

460 albusteve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:36:44pm

it’s way late for me…
I’m out like Ernie Shavers

461 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:37:39pm

re: #454 albusteve

I would too.

And BTW in my #427 I meant #415… I wasn’t calling you a douchebag. PIMF.

462 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:38:10pm

re: #458 ArchangelMichael

It’s moved to well… a domain name using the dumb made up word they use to describe their anything goes madhouse.

Actually, I checked under that name and its entirely down.

463 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:40:16pm

re: #462 Dark_Falcon

I pulled them right up.

464 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:40:22pm

re: #462 Dark_Falcon

Actually, I checked under that name and its entirely down.

I can get to it. I wish I couldn’t but I can. At least as of a few minutes ago.

465 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:41:46pm

re: #463 Sharmuta

I pulled them right up.

I put those bastards in my Hosts file just for kicks.
/evilgrin

466 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:42:45pm

re: #464 ArchangelMichael

I can get to it. I wish I couldn’t but I can. At least as of a few minutes ago.

It’s up & active from here, right now.
NOT that i want to look…

467 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:43:51pm

re: #465 Varek Raith

You sent them to the hell were all IPs are 127.0.0.1!

“The hell of what?”

Chinese have a lot of hells.

468 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:45:31pm

re: #463 Sharmuta

I pulled them right up.

Yep, its back. Not that I intend to read it. They can have their hate, I’ve got my friends here and for the moment I’m happy.

469 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:47:17pm

I keel you with cuteness!
[Link: www.zooborns.com…]

Bow, to your cute master!

470 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:50:56pm

re: #469 Floral Giraffe

Thank you! How stinkin’ cute is this?

471 Clemente  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:52:49pm

re: #469 Floral Giraffe

I keel you with cuteness!
[Link: www.zooborns.com…]

Bow, to your cute master!

“…and dig into ant nests for dessert.” I’d love ‘em, even if they weren’t crazy cute!

472 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 11:02:13pm

re: #470 Sharmuta

Thank you! How stinkin’ cute is this?

Not as cute as this!
-off to bed! srsly

473 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 11:06:47pm

Since were talking about cute critters, I’d sooo put this in my front yard.
/warped sense of ‘cute’. :P

474 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 11, 2009 1:57:04am

re: #22 jaunte

Ginsburg and Sotomayor’s dissent blamed Virginia’s appeals process:
[Link: www2.timesdispatch.com…]

Boo Frickin’ Hoo.

475 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 11, 2009 2:10:17am

re: #22 jaunte

Ginsburg and Sotomayor’s dissent blamed Virginia’s appeals process:
[Link: www2.timesdispatch.com…]

“Texas has the death penalty and we use it! Other states are trying to abolish the death penalty. My state’s putting in an express lane.”
-Ron White

But, Virginia is in second place. Diiistant second, but second.

476 Diamond Bullet  Wed, Nov 11, 2009 7:21:49am

Although I was in DC at the time of the attacks and was frankly a bit traumatized by them (not PTSD, mind you), I spent an agreeable evening last night with my family and didn’t think about the sniper a whit. It was fantastic. Until our technology reaches the point where we can hurl our violent sociopaths into 2-dimensional Phantom Zones in the best Krpytonian tradition, the death penalty is the best we’ve got. We may not relish that he forced us to do this to him, but we’ll never have to worry about this guy ever again. That’ll do, Virginia. That’ll do.

477 Barbarian at the Gate  Wed, Nov 11, 2009 7:47:40am

Definitely no loss to humanity. Here in Texas we also take murdering innocent people very seriously.

478 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 11, 2009 8:30:12am

Nothing like a death-penalty story to bring the bleeding hearts and the ravening ghouls out of the woodwork.

A match made in hell.

479 StillAMarine  Wed, Nov 11, 2009 8:39:55am

May the powers below eat him.

480 Caboose  Wed, Nov 11, 2009 6:14:21pm

Good riddance to bad f*cking rubbish. But he should have been shot, unexpectedly, like his victims. He needed to squirm a bit before dying.

Now do the same for Malvo. I don’t want to pay to feed his sorry @ss for the rest of his miserable life.

481 Flavia  Wed, Nov 11, 2009 11:09:53pm
re: #31 MandyManners
I was living in Denver but, I was still freaked out.
re: #46 The Sanity Inspector
I reside a two days drive away from the scenes of the shootings. My wife still didn’t want me going out for a stroll around the neighborhood.

I was less than 2 car lengths away from undercover officers drawing down on a suspect (no, not the departed scumbag), with my then toddler daughter strapped to her carseat - no way for her to duck down properly, even tho’ I did try to make a game of it.

So you can all imagine how happy I am that this guy can never get out to wreak more evil.


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