Palin: ‘Death Panels’ Like Reagan’s ‘Evil Empire’

Politics • Views: 4,239

Sarah “I didn’t come from no monkey” Palin gets the ultimate soft ball interview from Rich Lowry at National Review: The Rogue, on the Record.

When Lowry asks about her absurd fear-mongering “death panels” statement, she compares herself to … Ronald Reagan. You remember how Reagan called the Soviet Union the “evil empire?” “Death panels” is the same kind of thing.

It wouldn’t be a Palin interview without asking about “death panels.” How did she come up with the phrase? “To me, while reading that section of the bill, it became so evident that there would be a panel of bureaucrats who would decide on levels of health care, decide on those who are worthy or not worthy of receiving some government-controlled coverage,” she explains. “Since health care would have to be rationed if it were promised to everyone, it would therefore lead to harm for many individuals not able to receive the government care. That leads, of course, to death.”
 
“The term I used to describe the panel making these decisions should not be taken literally,” says Palin. The phrase is “a lot like when President Reagan used to refer to the Soviet Union as the ‘evil empire.’ He got his point across. He got people thinking and researching what he was talking about. It was quite effective. Same thing with the ‘death panels.’ I would characterize them like that again, in a heartbeat.”

In this quote she says outright that she knows the “death panels” claim is false, and we shouldn’t “take it literally.”

But in her original statement she gave no indication that she wasn’t speaking literally. This is what she wrote at Facebook:

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

Not only did she make a very specific claim, she used her own child to do it. I think she did knowingly, deliberately lie, in order to rile up the right wing base — and it worked.

Jump to bottom

289 comments
1 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:12:43am

Except for one tiny little detail she left out: The "evil empire" actually, y'know, existed.

2 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:13:04am
The phrase is “a lot like when President Reagan used to refer to the Soviet Union as the ‘evil empire.’ He got his point across.

Except Reagan wasn't lying.

3 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:13:34am

she's surfing...just below the curl and it's gonna crash down on her in the end...what a lovable crackpot, eh Cato?

4 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:15:04am
“The term I used to describe the panel making these decisions should not be taken literally,” says Palin. The phrase is “a lot like when President Reagan used to refer to the Soviet Union as the ‘evil empire.’ He got his point across.


It's an interesting admission. She knows it's not real but it riles up the troops.

5 RogueOne  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:15:10am
The Rogue, on the Record.

Didn't know I was ever on the record. That would have made a great screen name tho.

6 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:15:25am
He got people thinking and researching what he was talking about.

Umm- I'm pretty sure most Americans knew about the evils of the USSR before Reagan made that comment.

7 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:16:36am

re: #6 Sharmuta

Umm- I'm pretty sure most Americans knew about the evils of the USSR before Reagan made that comment.

The what?

8 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:16:39am

She dares to compare herself to Ronald Reagan?! Fucking chutzpah. No, it's beyond fucking chutzpah.

9 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:16:45am

re: #1 thedopefishlives

Except for one tiny little detail she left out: The "evil empire" actually, y'know, existed.

I'm sure if the Soviet Union had inconveniently not existed, Reagan would have made it up to score cheap political points.

//And why is it that people like this, who have no facts to present, always like to suggest that OTHER people should 'research' the random crap they pull out of thin air.

10 That's Glenn Beck to you  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:16:46am

Can I register That's Gov. Sarah Palin to you? Please?

11 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:17:29am

re: #10 That's Glenn Beck to you

Can I register That's Gov. Sarah Palin to you? Please?

Oh, that would be delish.

12 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:17:39am

re: #10 That's Glenn Beck to you

Can I register That's Former Gov. Sarah Palin to you? Please?

Fixed for accuracy.

13 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:17:41am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

It reminds me of Nancy Pelosi and the "culture of corruption" quote. Also Congresswoman Maxine Waters and her "No justice no peace" incitement and endorsement of the Rodney King riots. Except of course nothing Sarah Palin ever said ever resulted in a riot.

14 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:18:17am

re: #8 MandyManners

She dares to compare herself to Ronald Reagan?! Fucking chutzpah. No, it's beyond fucking chutzpah.

Yeah- I was just thinking this myself. She's no Reagan. Reagan wasn't a quitter.

15 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:18:27am

re: #8 MandyManners

She dares to compare herself to Ronald Reagan?! Fucking chutzpah. No, it's beyond fucking chutzpah.

Terminal stupidity. (Terminal for her career, anyway.)

16 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:18:30am

re: #8 MandyManners

She dares to compare herself to Ronald Reagan?! Fucking chutzpah. No, it's beyond fucking chutzpah.

well, comparisons to Lincoln have already been called for

17 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:19:14am

Reminder: It is no surprise that Rich "Starbursts" Lowry would be the perfect audience for anything Palin says, no matter how ridiculous. He lurrrves her.

Here he is in October 2008:, the post that has earned him continuing mockery ever since:

I'm sure I'm not the only male in America who, when Palin dropped her first wink, sat up a little straighter on the couch and said, "Hey, I think she just winked at me." And her smile. By the end, when she clearly knew she was doing well, it was so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing. It sent little starbursts through the screen and ricocheting around the living rooms of America. This is a quality that can't be learned; it's either something you have or you don't, and man, she's got it.

That's some reasoned political analysis right there, Rich.

18 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:19:25am

re: #15 thedopefishlives

Terminal stupidity. (Terminal for her career, anyway.)

I don't know if it will make a difference to younger people than my generation.

19 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:19:28am

re: #13 Rightwingconspirator

It reminds me of Nancy Pelosi and the "culture of corruption" quote. Also Congresswoman Maxine Waters and her "No justice no peace" incitement and endorsement of the Rodney King riots. Except of course nothing Sarah Palin ever said ever resulted in a riot.

Yet. And not for want of trying.

20 That's Glenn Beck to you  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:19:30am

re: #12 Sharmuta

Fixed for accuracy.

Since when is accuracy important? Geeesh.

21 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:19:57am

re: #9 SanFranciscoZionist


//And why is it that people like this, who have no facts to present, always like to suggest that OTHER people should 'research' the random crap they pull out of thin air.

This is a Twoofer tactic, which I despise. If all you're doing is quoting talking points, you can stall for time by making your opponents do all the heavy lifting for you while someone else comes up with a new topic to run with.

22 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:20:10am

Sarah, bless her heart could use some sessions with a "Depth Panel."

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:20:13am

re: #15 thedopefishlives

Terminal stupidity. (Terminal for her career, anyway.)

Depends. I think she may have a good long run as a pundit.

24 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:20:22am
25 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:20:24am

I love how she admits she'd lie again.

26 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:20:26am

Sarah Palin : Ronald Reagan :: three-two beer : cognac

27 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:20:43am

re: #22 _RememberTonyC

Sarah, bless her heart could use some sessions with a "Depth Panel."

How about a Truth Panel?

28 Baier  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:20:52am

I'll take a petite mort panel any day!

29 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:21:18am

re: #24 SeaMonkey

You could always get your own blog and post those more interesting stories yourself.

30 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:21:21am

re: #26 Cato the Elder

Sarah Palin : Ronald Reagan :: three-two beer : cognac

Rolling Stones : Nirvana

31 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:21:22am

Comments whining about thread topics will be deleted.

32 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:22:24am

re: #30 albusteve

Yes- Reagan was like Nirvana. Cutting edge.

33 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:22:37am

probationary lurk time...?

34 Spider Mensch  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:23:15am

re: #17 iceweasel

Reminder: It is no surprise that Rich "Starbursts" Lowry would be the perfect audience for anything Palin says, no matter how ridiculous. He lurrrves her.

Here he is in October 2008:, the post that has earned him continuing mockery ever since:


That's some reasoned political analysis right there, Rich.

heh..he got a tingle down his 3rd leg...:0 Ay Caramba!!!

35 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:23:56am

re: #21 thedopefishlives

This is a Twoofer tactic, which I despise. If all you're doing is quoting talking points, you can stall for time by making your opponents do all the heavy lifting for you while someone else comes up with a new topic to run with.

It's particularly irritating to me. "Do you have any evidence of this?" "I'm not going to insult you by spoon-feeding you 'facts'. Do your own research. Come to your own conclusions...my, it sure is interesting that there are coded Communist murals on the walls of the Rockefeller Center, isn't it?"

36 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:24:07am

re: #27 Sharmuta

How about a Truth Panel?

I don't see her as intentionally lying, I see her as someone who is well intentioned but believes her own BS.

37 badger1970  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:24:23am

Reagan put up with more crap than Palin will ever see and actually united America in ways that neither she nor future generation of empty-suit politicians would ever achieve (or attempt).

I would go too hard on Lowry, he's just following the Barbra Wa-Wa tradition of coddling.

38 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:24:34am

re: #28 Baier

I'll take a petite mort panel any day!

Oh, you naughty, naughty boy.

39 ckb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:24:34am

I think she explained it rather well. "Death Panels" was always about rationing care, just the way care is currently rationed under Medicare. And given the state of that program, it is about to be rationed further.

Did anyone catch the new recommendation that women should not get routine mamograms until age 50, up from 40? How about that...

40 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:24:36am

re: #32 Sharmuta

Yes- Reagan was like Nirvana. Cutting edge.

if you say so...cutting edge of what?, Prozac Rock?

41 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:24:38am

re: #26 Cato the Elder

Sarah Palin : Ronald Reagan :: three-two beer : cognac

Updinged, and I didn't even LIKE Reagan.

42 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:24:58am

re: #36 _RememberTonyC

I don't see her as intentionally lying, I see her as someone who is well intentioned but believes her own BS.

It's not a lie if you believe it.

-George Costanza

43 Joe G.  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:25:05am

I don't think the death panels rhetoric "got people thinking and researching."

I think it "got them to go to town hall meetings and scream about death panels."

44 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:25:07am

re: #37 badger1970

Reagan put up with more crap than Palin will ever see and actually united America in ways that neither she nor future generation of empty-suit politicians would ever achieve (or attempt).

I would go too hard on Lowry, he's just following the Barbra Wa-Wa tradition of coddling.

That's Baba Wawa to you, son.

45 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:25:07am

Jeeez. Can she please just go away?

46 Idle Drifter  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:25:10am

No, sorry, we ain't got no leaders here. Got plenty of politicians, some of them aren't so fresh anymore.

47 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:25:21am

re: #27 Sharmuta

I'd like one of those for folks are still in office or actually running for office before we need one for mere public speakers. That's all she is now. Just a paid speaker.

48 vxbush  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:25:22am

re: #36 _RememberTonyC

I don't see her as intentionally lying, I see her as someone who is well intentioned but believes her own BS.

I don't exactly agree with that. She purposefully chose words that would convey more than what's in the bill. She wanted something with strong emotional play, and knew that "death panels" would do it. She doesn't believe they really are death panels, based on what she said above.

49 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:25:25am

re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist

It's particularly irritating to me. "Do you have any evidence of this?" "I'm not going to insult you by spoon-feeding you 'facts'. Do your own research. Come to your own conclusions...my, it sure is interesting that there are coded Communist murals on the walls of the Rockefeller Center, isn't it?"

I see it all the time, lurking on message boards for 9/11 Truth debunkers. (I never pay any visits to actual Twoofer sites.) The Twoofers come in, make all sorts of wild allegations. Debunkers: "Show us some evidence to support all this BS." Twoofers: "Do your own research, man. The twoof is out there." Debunkers: "That's what we thought."

50 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:25:58am

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

Updinged, and I didn't even LIKE Reagan.

oh please, he was one of our most personable presidents ever...you probably hate kittens

51 Ojoe  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:26:20am

We all go home, there's no way around it.

No government will change the final outcome.

Here it is on the pipes.

52 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:26:21am

An old Irish curse comes to mind:

May she marry a ghost and bear him a kitten and may
The High King of Glory permit her to get the mange.

53 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:26:49am

re: #45 Racer X

Jeeez. Can she please just go away?

Time, Dear. Give it time...

54 badger1970  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:27:10am

When speaking and plainly and truthfully is considered cutting edge speaks ill for our society.

55 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:27:14am

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

Updinged, and I didn't even LIKE Reagan.

Me neither.

56 Slap  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:27:26am

Sarah Palin:Ronald Reagan :: Ashlee Simpson: Billie Holliday

And a hello from a wise-assed newbie.

57 I am smarter than you  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:27:42am

re: #17 iceweasel

Reminder: It is no surprise that Rich "Starbursts" Lowry would be the perfect audience for anything Palin says, no matter how ridiculous. He lurrrves her.

Here he is in October 2008:, the post that has earned him continuing mockery ever since:

That's some reasoned political analysis right there, Rich.

While I would normally not reply to a neo-ecosse gender traitor such as yourself, you have to understand that Lowry descends from a long line of male conservatives who like to say "Women are better than men which is why we work so hard to keep them at home." And I have no doubt he, the latest agnate, has spilled his agnatoplasm all over the latest Newsweek cover.

58 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:27:53am

re: #56 Slap

Welcome to LGF!

59 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:28:07am

re: #56 Slap

Welcome.

60 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:28:17am

re: #48 vxbush

I don't exactly agree with that. She purposefully chose words that would convey more than what's in the bill. She wanted something with strong emotional play, and knew that "death panels" would do it. She doesn't believe they really are death panels, based on what she said above.

i see your point

61 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:28:18am

re: #55 Cato the Elder

Me neither.

that's what I mean about those bats

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:28:21am

re: #39 ckb

I think she explained it rather well. "Death Panels" was always about rationing care, just the way care is currently rationed under Medicare. And given the state of that program, it is about to be rationed further.

Did anyone catch the new recommendation that women should not get routine mamograms until age 50, up from 40? How about that...

All care is rationed care.

Yes, I caught the recommendation. My insurance company will leap on it with gleeful shrieks, but I guess that's OK, because they're not a governmental agency.

The 'Death Panel' statement was inflammatory crap.

63 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:28:23am

re: #36 _RememberTonyC

I don't see her as intentionally lying, I see her as someone who is well intentioned but believes her own BS.

I think she does both. She believes her own BS, sometimes she intentionally lies, and I think in general she has a casual relationship with truth: She'll say whatever is most expedient at the time without thinking.

That's why she's given something like 4 different versions of what happened when she got the call about being VP. A deliberate and calculating liar would have the same story every time there, whereas she just seems to say whatever looks best for the interview of the moment.

64 KingKenrod  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:28:39am

She didn't compare herself to Reagan, she claimed to use a similar tactic Reagan used. I think she's wrong about the tactic, but whatever. Her description of govt panels and probable rationing is accurate.

This hypersensitivity to everything Palin says or does is getting to be a real drag. It's pathetic. And it trivializes the debate.

65 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:28:44am

re: #56 Slap

Sarah Palin:Ronald Reagan :: Ashlee Simpson: Billie Holliday

And a hello from a wise-assed newbie.

Welcome.

66 Kragarghazi  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:28:47am

The more I hear her, the less I listen to her.

67 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:28:56am

re: #56 Slap

Sarah Palin:Ronald Reagan :: Ashlee Simpson: Billie Holliday

And a hello from a wise-assed newbie.

WELCOME!

First round's on you, noob.

68 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:28:57am

What about the real world death panels we do have now? Like when a pre-existing condition is suddenly found right when you need chemotherapy? Anyone going to argue those do not exist?

69 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:29:01am

I'm beginning to think this is all a conspiracy set in motion by [insert evil doer name here].

Oprah gives Palin air time to fuel the wingnuts. Beck is pushing her to run in 2012. Limbaugh praises her every move. No one else steps up.

Obama gets reelected while accomplishing nothing of substance.

*facepalm*

70 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:29:07am

re: #56 Slap

Sarah Palin:Ronald Reagan :: Ashlee Simpson: Billie Holliday

And a hello from a wise-assed newbie.

Slap! Slap!

Now you can carry on. It's just a little initiation thing we do.

71 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:29:12am

re: #28 Baier

I'll take a petite mort panel any day!

Dirty, but educated, mind!

72 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:29:49am

re: #64 KingKenrod

She didn't compare herself to Reagan, she claimed to use a similar tactic Reagan used.

Except she didn't. Reagan wasn't lying.

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:29:50am

re: #43 Joe G.

I don't think the death panels rhetoric "got people thinking and researching."

I think it "got them to go to town hall meetings and scream about death panels."

Well, it got them thinking. It got them thinking that Barack Obama was going to kill little kids with Downs' Syndrome.

74 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:30:11am

re: #56 Slap

Welcome to the fray!

75 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:30:25am

re: #5 RogueOne

Didn't know I was ever on the record. That would have made a great screen name tho.

From the link above, with reference to your comments yesterday:

“That was a mistake,” Palin says of the Obama bow. “It was symbolic of, perhaps, our country being led to believe that we are subservient to other countries.”

Are you Sarah Palin?!?

76 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:30:32am

re: #70 Cato the Elder

OT - did you get my short note on the last thread? There is an asteroid headed your way... duck.

77 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:30:57am

re: #36 _RememberTonyC

I don't see her as intentionally lying, I see her as someone who is well intentioned but believes her own BS.

I can't agree. She says outright in the quote I posted that she knows the "death panels" claim is false, and we shouldn't "take it literally."

But in her original statement she gave no indication that she wasn't speaking literally. This is what she wrote at Facebook:

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

Not only did she make a very specific claim, she used her own child to do it. I think she did knowingly, deliberately lie, in order to rile up the right wing base. And it worked.

78 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:31:09am
“To me, while reading that section of the bill, it became so evident that there would be a panel of bureaucrats who would decide on levels of health care, decide on those who are worthy or not worthy of receiving some government-controlled coverage,” she explains. “Since health care would have to be rationed if it were promised to everyone, it would therefore lead to harm for many individuals not able to receive the government care. That leads, of course, to death.”

Is that statement inaccurate?

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:31:23am

re: #50 albusteve

oh please, he was one of our most personable presidents ever...you probably hate kittens

I'm not really a cat person...kittens are cute, but mean.

80 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:31:29am

re: #70 Cato the Elder

Slap! Slap!

Now you can carry on. It's just a little initiation thing we do.

What, this one gets a coupla slaps across the face? When I joined up here, it was like the friggin' Hell's Angels, man, just a big roiling mess of Lizards kicking the bejeesus outta me.

81 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:32:11am

DNC MEMO

In advance of Sarah Palin’s stop in Michigan today, please find below everything you need to know about Going Rogue – a memoir that has been received as 1) political payback for Palin’s rivals that adds to the tabloid nature of her profile rather than provide a display of substantive policy chops that would reset her ability to be taken as a serious leader; and 2) substantively more fiction than fact compounding the credibility problems she earned during the 2008 campaign. These factors are reflected in recent polling which shows extraordinary disapproval numbers and small minorities who feel she's qualified to be President. The sensational nature of Palin's book continues to dominate news cycles - and does so to the detriment of the Republican Party. Combined with her dismal polling numbers and Republican willingness to cede the party to her and her polarizing tea party following, the political impact of her re-emergence, spells political disaster for the GOP going into 2010 and beyond.

[snip]

82 I am smarter than you  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:32:17am

re: #71 Guanxi88

Dirty, but educated, mind!

An educated mind that is not dirty is a waste of an education.

83 badger1970  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:32:34am

re: #68 Rightwingconspirator

Or the trap of having insurance, getting laid off, value food over health insurance, get job, try to get insurance for a daughter for a condition that was diagnosed during the insurance void, get denied, have to pay out of pocket.

84 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:32:54am

re: #82 I am smarter than you

An educated mind that is not dirty is a waste of an education.

The converse is also true, and I love literate feelth.

85 Slap  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:32:59am

re: #67 MandyManners

Duty accepted. 'Cept all I got handy is Woodford Reserve bourbon and Zaya rum. Hope that's otay.

86 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:33:31am

re: #85 Slap

Woodford Reserve- nice.

87 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:34:06am

re: #82 I am smarter than you

An educated mind that is not dirty is a waste of an education.

Ain't no entendre like double entendre.

88 I am smarter than you  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:35:04am

re: #82 I am smarter than you

An educated mind that is not dirty is a waste of an education.

To wit.

89 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:35:46am
90 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:36:02am

re: #81 NJDhockeyfan

and does so to the detriment of the Republican Party.

They crack me up, as the dems get hammered in recent elections and current poll numbers show them getting hammered all over.

91 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:36:07am

re: #72 Sharmuta

Except she didn't. Reagan wasn't lying.

More than that, Reagan was CORRECT.

92 MinisterO  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:36:13am

re: #73 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, it got them thinking. It got them thinking that Barack Obama was going to kill little kids with Downs' Syndrome.

Obama might not have said it but we all know he's thinking it.

93 I am smarter than you  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:36:20am

GGB

94 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:36:25am

re: #87 Guanxi88

Ain't no entendre like double entendre.

entendre a trois?

95 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:36:31am

re: #82 I am smarter than you

An educated mind that is not dirty is a waste of an education.

Two words: Milleres Tale:

96 Slap  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:36:44am

re: #80 Guanxi88

Oh, I fully expect to receive well-deserved drubbings from time to time. From what I can tell, seems like everybody here has stepped in it a time or two and been called on it. One of the reasons I signed up, actually.

And as long as the initiation doesn't involve motor oil in my hair and raw eggs down my pants (jr. high football initiation...yikes, nearly 40 years ago...), I can bear it.

97 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:37:19am

re: #94 albusteve

entendre a trois?

No, those just cause problems. Like a lot of things, it sounds great in theory.

98 Idle Drifter  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:37:39am

re: #83 badger1970

Some people find out the hard way their insurance through their employer only covers them in state, on the job and home but not the second job their working, somethings are or are not covered, etc as they never sat down and read the print in their policy.

99 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:37:45am

re: #64 KingKenrod
What debate? It's been an outright attack on her from jump street.

100 badger1970  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:37:49am

re: #81 NJDhockeyfan

The DNC know they won big time in '08, right? They also know that Palin is even marginalized in her own party? They know they are giving credence to her memoir through this memo?

I guess the DNC don't trust their supports.

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:38:16am

re: #78 filetandrelease

Is that statement inaccurate?

How do you think people's health care is currently decided? By bands of ministering angels? Does Kaiser Permanente have 'death panels'?

102 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:38:59am

re: #91 SanFranciscoZionist

More than that, Reagan was CORRECT.

And it was the moral thing to do to stand up to the Soviets. End of life counseling, not so much.

103 I am smarter than you  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:39:30am

re: #96 Slap

Oh, I fully expect to receive well-deserved drubbings from time to time. From what I can tell, seems like everybody here has stepped in it a time or two and been called on it. One of the reasons I signed up, actually.

And as long as the initiation doesn't involve motor oil in my hair and raw eggs down my pants (jr. high football initiation...yikes, nearly 40 years ago...), I can bear it.

Had to log back in for that one.

I must ask this question and take the answer off line - Why are initiation rituals to male exclusive organizations invariably homoerotic?

104 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:39:31am

re: #102 Sharmuta

And it was the moral thing to do to stand up to the Soviets. End of life counseling, not so much.

But, but, but Shar, it FEELS good to stand up against the vile "death panels". Come on, FEEL with me. /

105 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:39:53am

re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist

How do you think people's health care is currently decided? By bands of ministering angels? Does Kaiser Permanente have 'death panels'?

No idea, my guess is not Angels, but I am curious as to the accuracy of her comment.

106 CommonCents  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:39:53am

re: #89 NJDhockeyfan

Cartoon of the week at McClatchy.

That cartoon is sexist! The elephant isn't wearing any clothes!
/

107 Stanghazi  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:40:04am

Hey! Sarah! I know how we can make you sound more legit and compare you to Reagan! A twofer!

This comparison was not thought up by Sarah Palin.

108 Idle Drifter  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:40:14am

re: #102 Sharmuta

Even the Catholic Church gives last rights to the dying.

109 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:40:51am

Angry over criticism of Bachmann rally, woman threatens Michigan newspaper

A 60-year-old Port Huron, Mich. woman called up the Kentucky-based customer service center for the Gannett-owned Times Herald of Port Huron to express her anger over the editorial, which criticized Republican U.S. Rep. Candice Miller for attending the rally. The Nov. 12 editorial called out protest signs that depicted Obama as “Sambo” and others that showed the Holocaust imagery, as well as protesters who chanted “Nazi, Nazi.”

The editorial concluded by calling on Miller to apologize for attending the Bachmann-organized event, which it characterized as a “GOP festival of hate.”

No charges have been filed against the woman, but an investigation is ongoing.

110 englishprof  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:41:33am

The term "death panels" may be graphic, but look at England, and that's what they have. Any time the government is trying to allocate limited resources to a burgeoning demand, that's what you're going to get. Better to let families, doctors, and the patients make their own decisions.

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:41:53am

re: #103 I am smarter than you

Had to log back in for that one.

I must ask this question and take the answer off line - Why are initiation rituals to male exclusive organizations invariably homoerotic?

Long-standing tradition. Any other questions?

112 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:42:07am

I, for one, think it's not so bad at all that Ms. Palin's getting fact-checked, questioned, and generally run through the wringer over her antics.

What's being done to her ought to be done to anybody seeking high office who goes around associating with radical and questionable types, who lacks substantial political experience, and who writes self-congratulatory works in order to further his or her prospects for assuming control of a national party or political movement. Tack on the effort to build up a little media godling thing around her, and the way she "speaks" to the vast and silent masses who all agree with her and have been waiting for someone like her to tell them things they already know or wish to be true, and you have all the makings of a dangerous and incompetent candidate for national leadership.

113 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:42:14am

re: #77 Charles
Then this recent quote would amount to a partial retraction.

114 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:42:15am

re: #99 gulfloafer

What debate? It's been an outright attack on her from jump street.

Interesting that you call opinions "attack." Sort of a weasel word, isn't it, like the left loves to use in an effort to shut down speech.

115 Dynomite  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:42:39am

re: #102 Sharmuta

And it was the moral thing to do to stand up to the Soviets. End of life counseling, not so much.

I hope you mean it's not moral to stand up against End of Life counseling - not that the counseling itself is "not so much"... I give you the benefit of the doubt that my frst reading just missed the parsing. :)

In this day of DNRs, Health care surrogates, and the litigious nature of people that has every hospital & doctor operating from CYA mode, not offering & covering end of life counseling is not just immoral - it is downright evil.

116 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:44:02am

re: #103 I am smarter than you

Had to log back in for that one.

I must ask this question and take the answer off line - Why are initiation rituals to male exclusive organizations invariably homoerotic?

I was raised up a Mason, and there wasn't much like that in it that I recall. Got slapped on the face, hit with a mallet, struck with a compass and square, but nothing homoerotic there.

117 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:44:19am

re: #109 Killgore Trout

These people are down with signs connecting Obama with Sambo?!? WFT!?!

118 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:44:51am

re: #110 englishprof

End of life counseling isn't a "death panel". It's the patient and their doctor discussing what it is the patient would like to have in terms of care should their health take a turn for the worst. I wouldn't mind having this discussion with my doctor, would you?

119 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:45:06am

re: #85 Slap

Duty accepted. 'Cept all I got handy is Woodford Reserve bourbon and Zaya rum. Hope that's otay.

Well, hello there, sweet thang!

120 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:45:12am

re: #112 Guanxi88

I, for one, think it's not so bad at all that Ms. Palin's getting fact-checked, questioned, and generally run through the wringer over her antics.

What's being done to her ought to be done to anybody seeking high office who goes around associating with radical and questionable types, who lacks substantial political experience, and who writes self-congratulatory works in order to further his or her prospects for assuming control of a national party or political movement. Tack on the effort to build up a little media godling thing around her, and the way she "speaks" to the vast and silent masses who all agree with her and have been waiting for someone like her to tell them things they already know or wish to be true, and you have all the makings of a dangerous and incompetent candidate for national leadership.

So she should be destroyed? 11 journalist fact checking her book? Zero for Zero? IMO, she has been treated with a heavy hand like none other. If all politicians seeking higher office were run through the gauntlet like her, then perhaps I would agree.

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:45:52am

re: #110 englishprof

The term "death panels" may be graphic, but look at England, and that's what they have. Any time the government is trying to allocate limited resources to a burgeoning demand, that's what you're going to get. Better to let families, doctors, and the patients make their own decisions.

I repeat--there will be rationing through a public option, if one actually emerges from the fray, but there is already rationing extant in all health insurance coverage. "Families, doctors and the patients make their own decisions" without interference only if you're fabulously wealthy--which is also true in England--otherwise the 'death panel' makes decisions about what they will provide. This is called INSURANCE.

122 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:45:59am

Sarah sold her soul for silver.
For silver Sarah's soul was sold.
From now on in, she pays the dues
Until she boils in liquid gold.

Copyright 2009 Cato the Elder

123 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:46:00am

re: #120 filetandrelease

Or perhaps, just perhaps, all politicians seeking higher office SHOULD be run through the gauntlet like her. I used to be a Sarah Palin fan, and I'll admit that the coverage she's gotten has helped convince me otherwise - and that's a good thing.

124 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:46:07am

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

I'm not talking about the thread. I'm talking about when she first came onto the scene. The outright hatred towards her from the left was/is overwhelming.

125 Dynomite  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:46:22am

Mmm. Sambo's. Used to eat there every Sunday night with my grandfather.

Denny's before Denny's. :)

126 vxbush  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:46:31am

There was enough concern about the panels in question that the truth was good enough to merit discussion. "Ginning up" the issue by calling them "death panels" does no one any good. The truth is better than a lie.

127 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:46:44am

re: #120 filetandrelease

So she should be destroyed? 11 journalist fact checking her book? Zero for Zero? IMO, she has been treated with a heavy hand like none other. If all politicians seeking higher office were run through the gauntlet like her, then perhaps I would agree.

That was exactly the point I was making, ironically contrasting the scrutiny to which she was and is subjected, and the pass BHO got.

"What's being done to her ought to be done to anybody seeking high office who goes around associating with radical and questionable types, who lacks substantial political experience, and who writes self-congratulatory works in order to further his or her prospects for assuming control of a national party or political movement."

That's the current President I'm describing.

128 MinisterO  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:46:47am

re: #112 Guanxi88

Somebody will take that bait... and then wham!

129 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:47:47am

re: #128 MinisterO

Somebody will take that bait... and then wham!

Well, the parallels are there.

130 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:48:06am

re: #117 Surabaya Stew

I don't know how true that claim is. I haven't seen pictures of that one.

131 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:48:09am

re: #118 Sharmuta

End of life counseling isn't a "death panel". It's the patient and their doctor discussing what it is the patient would like to have in terms of care should their health take a turn for the worst. I wouldn't mind having this discussion with my doctor, would you?

No, but I don't think that is her point. She seems to being saying that when goverment takes over health care, there will be more people recieving health care, and potentially less providers, meaning MORE rationing. And a panel gets to decide who gets what.

132 MinisterO  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:48:19am

re: #129 Guanxi88

You are a master of false equivalences.

133 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:48:46am

re: #115 Dynomite

I support end of life counseling. I think it's wrong to to paint them as something evil when it's really just a person trying to figure out with their doctor what sorts of treatments they want. This gets a little personal for me, as it might for others as well. It's hard when you've lost a loved one, and you know you did what they wanted at the end. Would Sarah have people left on life support without their consent? It's like Schiavo all over again.

134 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:48:56am

re: #132 MinisterO

You are a master of false equivalences.

No, my former philosophy professor was. I am but a student of the art.

135 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:49:28am

re: #123 thedopefishlives

Or perhaps, just perhaps, all politicians seeking higher office SHOULD be run through the gauntlet like her. I used to be a Sarah Palin fan, and I'll admit that the coverage she's gotten has helped convince me otherwise - and that's a good thing.

Nobody would vote.

136 Kragarghazi  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:50:48am

re: #134 Guanxi88

No, my former philosophy professor was. I am but a student of the art.

I thought you were the Pompatus of Love.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:50:52am

re: #124 gulfloafer

I'm not talking about the thread. I'm talking about when she first came onto the scene. The outright hatred towards her from the left was/is overwhelming.

The visceral hatred of anyone who dared challenge her from the right was also palpable. I got tired of hearing about how I didn't GET the wonderful America this amazing woman was from if I pointed out she seemed to know jack about politics.

138 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:51:24am

Not good: more mainstreaming of wackery:

Conspiracy website WND teams up with House Republicans at the Capitol

We've noted that conservatives such as Jon Henke have called for a boycott of WorldNetDaily because it traffics "in the paranoid conspiracy theories that take away from our ability to discuss more important issues." Yesterday at the Capitol, four House Republicans found no more important issue than promoting and legitimizing the conspiracy website.

As the Washington Independent's David Weigel noted, actual GOP members of Congress appeared at a press conference to endorse and promote the efforts of WorldNetDaily to deliver 5 million "pink slips" of paper to Congress. The press conference featured WND CEO Joseph Farah and columnist and campaign organizer Janet Porter, along with "U.S. Reps. Michelle Bachmann, R-Minn.; Louie Gohmert, R-Texas; Steve King, R-Iowa; and Trent Franks, R-Ariz., [who] hailed the effort as an innovative new vehicle for the American people to express themselves to members of Congress."

How is WND helping Americans "express themselves?" By graciously allowing us to buy pink slips of paper at the "WND SUPERSTORE" for the "Discount Price" of $29.95.

So not only is WND receiving congressional praise, it's also getting help making money.

See also:
Bachmann And WorldNetDaily, Together at Last

139 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:51:31am

re: #128 MinisterO

Somebody will take that bait... and then wham!

(And well spotted!)

140 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:51:39am

I pity Sarah Palin.

She is like a little 6 year old beauty pageant contestant, being dragged around by her handlers to one event after another. Dressed up to look pretty for the cameras. Everyone tells her how smart and pretty and special she is, and she believes them. Sad, really.

141 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:51:45am

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

The visceral hatred of anyone who dared challenge her from the right was also palpable. I got tired of hearing about how I didn't GET the wonderful America this amazing woman was from if I pointed out she seemed to know jack about politics.

"Real Americans."

Nuff sed.

142 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:51:48am

re: #134 Guanxi88

No, my former philosophy professor was. I am but a student of the art.

I thought it was an excellent parallel.

143 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:52:02am

re: #136 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I thought you were the Pompatus of Love.

No, I speak for him.

144 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:52:03am

Holder tells senators 'We need not cower in the face of this enemy'

Holder vowed that the U.S. would not surrender to fear or politics in seeking justice against the alleged Sept. 11 plotters in federal court.

We need not cower in the face of this enemy,” Holder told the Senate Judiciary Committee at a packed hearing. “Our institutions are strong, our infrastructure is sturdy, our resolve is firm, and our people are ready.”

I don't see how giving them a military trial instead of a federal trial is cowering in the face of this enemy.

145 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:52:38am

re: #124 gulfloafer

I'm not talking about the thread. I'm talking about when she first came onto the scene. The outright hatred towards her from the left was/is overwhelming.

The outright hatred for Sarah - even on display here - is despicable.

146 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:53:00am

re: #140 Racer X

I pity Sarah Palin.

She is like a little 6 year old beauty pageant contestant, being dragged around by her handlers to one event after another. Dressed up to look pretty for the cameras. Everyone tells her how smart and pretty and special she is, and she believes them. Sad, really.


LOL, wrong. She gets hammered daily.

147 Slap  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:53:05am

re: #99 gulfloafer

Oh, I always start slowing down when I hear phrases like this, 'cause I wonder, in part, if there's an element of facetiousness in them. I'm more than willing to admit that I'm a bit difficult when my buttons get pushed, but if you're interested in my view, I personally stopped taking her seriously during the "lipstick on a pig" poo-haha. Since then, I've seen or heard nothing from her that leads me to believe she's anything other than thin-skinned, hamfistedly manipulative, and deeply anti-intellectual as a public figure. That may be shallow on my part. I can live with that.

148 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:53:09am

re: #144 NJDhockeyfan

Holder tells senators 'We need not cower in the face of this enemy'

I don't see how giving them a military trial instead of a federal trial is cowering in the face of this enemy.

And I don't see how giving them a federal trial imperils the Republic.

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:54:08am

re: #131 filetandrelease

No, but I don't think that is her point. She seems to being saying that when goverment takes over health care, there will be more people recieving health care, and potentially less providers, meaning MORE rationing. And a panel gets to decide who gets what.

"When government takes over health care" is a very big statement. How does Mrs. Palin imagine her own coverage is going to change in such an event? Please remember, the mere inclusion of a public option is still far from a given.

And I'm interested in the recurrent idea that the United States of America just doesn't have enough health care to go around, and that those of us with coverage are only able to receive 'the best health care in the world' because others go without. Anyone here ever read "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas?"

150 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:54:11am

re: #145 Racer X

The outright hatred for Sarah - even on display here - is despicable.

The blind love and faith in Sarah, even on display here, is disturbing.

151 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:54:12am

re: #142 Sharmuta

I thought it was an excellent parallel.

Thank you. My standard response, whenever called a master or expert or accomplished X,Y, or Z of something or other, is always to defer to my teachers and relatives.

152 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:54:30am

re: #124 gulfloafer

I'm not talking about the thread. I'm talking about when she first came onto the scene. The outright hatred towards her from the left was/is overwhelming.

So? This is not a garden party. Whine, whine... I prefer not to act like the left and complain every time someone doesn't agree with me.

I swear, political correctness has infected the right... it's part of the plan... make us all feel bad about putting our foot down, make as afraid to take a stand...

Gee, too bad... if Sarah can't take it, then she needs to fade away.

153 Dynomite  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:54:40am

re: #133 Sharmuta

I support end of life counseling. I think it's wrong to to paint them as something evil when it's really just a person trying to figure out with their doctor what sorts of treatments they want. This gets a little personal for me, as it might for others as well. It's hard when you've lost a loved one, and you know you did what they wanted at the end. Would Sarah have people left on life support without their consent? It's like Schiavo all over again.

Personal for me as well. I get the feeling that many of the people stomping their feet about the counseling haven't ever had the displeasure of actually dealing with the issue.

And yes, Sarah would have people left on life support at all costs (their own, preferably), rather than dealing with it. After all, all life is sacred!

Maybe that's where we've been looking at this wrong. The objection to end of life counseling? They might chose to die quicker & on their own terms, and that would devalue LIFE!

154 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:54:42am

re: #146 filetandrelease

LOL, wrong. She gets hammered daily.

Sorry, I meant everyone around her.

155 MinisterO  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:55:12am

re: #134 Guanxi88

I am but a student of the art.

And a good sport as well. You're really no different from Winston Churchill.

I'm a rank amateur, I know.

156 badger1970  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:55:20am

re: #148 Cato the Elder

It's when top officials claim that KSM will be found guilty and then executed.

157 McSpiff  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:55:21am

re: #148 Cato the Elder

And I don't see how giving them a federal trial imperils the Republic.

And the exact same argument can be made about military tribunals.

158 brookly red  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:55:27am

re: #150 thedopefishlives

The blind love and faith in Sarah, even on display here, is disturbing.

love her or hate her, she ain't going away...

159 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:55:29am

re: #150 thedopefishlives

The blind love and faith in Sarah, even on display here, is disturbing.

Who here is displaying blind love?

160 vxbush  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:55:55am

re: #145 Racer X

The outright hatred for Sarah - even on display here - is despicable.

I don't hate her. I want her to do well, and I want her to blow the political class out of the water. But when she's willing to bend and stretch the truth to make a political point, that bothers me.

161 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:55:56am

re: #144 NJDhockeyfan

Holder tells senators 'We need not cower in the face of this enemy'

I don't see how giving them a military trial instead of a federal trial is cowering in the face of this enemy.

more blather that says nothing about his decision

162 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:56:21am

re: #150 thedopefishlives

The blind love and faith in Sarah, even on display here, is disturbing.

No kidding.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:56:49am

re: #145 Racer X

The outright hatred for Sarah - even on display here - is despicable.

Why? Is there any reason on God's earth I shouldn't dislike Sarah Palin? What has she ever done for me except insult me?

164 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:57:28am

Palin unquestionably deserves much of the criticisms. Also unquestionable is the severe degree of excess rhetoric and character assassination leveled against her. Just for example-Lets see if Chuck Rangel does as well in his investigation as Sarah Palin did in her multiple ones. Lets see the sitting congressmen and women held to the same degree of scrutiny and see who can keep a seat.

165 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:57:34am

re: #157 McSpiff

And the exact same argument can be made about military tribunals.

And we're doing both. What's the beef?

166 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:57:37am

I don't like anybody equally

167 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:57:40am

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

I empathize with your position but why the constant venomnous hatred?

168 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:58:13am

re: #165 Cato the Elder

And we're doing both. What's the beef?

what's up with all the necessary security around town?

169 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:58:13am

re: #153 Dynomite

Personal for me as well. I get the feeling that many of the people stomping their feet about the counseling haven't ever had the displeasure of actually dealing with the issue.

And yes, Sarah would have people left on life support at all costs (their own, preferably), rather than dealing with it. After all, all life is sacred!

Maybe that's where we've been looking at this wrong. The objection to end of life counseling? They might chose to die quicker & on their own terms, and that would devalue LIFE!

And that would increase costs to the family of the ill person. Never mind the person's rights to have the treatment they want or don't want. Never mind respecting their wishes.

170 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:58:26am

re: #155 MinisterO

And a good sport as well. You're really no different from Winston Churchill.

I'm a rank amateur, I know.

Gotta be a good sport, or you end up being an asshole.

I'm very different from Churchill, the ashes from whose cigars I am not worthy to have fall upon my common floor.

171 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:58:36am

re: #122 Cato the Elder

Note: In this ditty, "soul" is to be pronounced as "soil".

172 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:59:08am

Never really did get an answer to my above question on post 78, as too the accuracy of her statement.

Should I assume that part of her statement is accurate and that her characterization of it is the problem?

173 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:59:12am

I've decided that this is all just footage for the inevitable Sarah Palin reality show...hopefully we will loose interest soon and it will never air.

(and y'all, you know how awesome a Palin Family reality show would be, almost as awesome as it would be if she and Michelle Bachman are in the primary.)

174 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:59:40am

re: #138 iceweasel

heh

175 Dynomite  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:59:40am

re: #169 Sharmuta

And that would increase costs to the family of the ill person. Never mind the person's rights to have the treatment they want or don't want. Never mind respecting their wishes.

Schiavo in a nutshell. That fight wasn't a fight over one person's wishes - it was a proxy fight for the whole end-of-life/right-to-die issue.

/Nevermind who suffers. LIFE IS SACRED!

176 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:59:51am

re: #155 MinisterO

And a good sport as well. You're really no different from Winston Churchill.

I'm a rank amateur, I know.

And as for the rank amateur thing, well, it comes with practice, of course. Fear not, though, for the damage it may do, but press ahead without fail, for as you get better at it, you'll find you take your own positions less seriously. There is nothing like cynicism to aid one in keeping a proper sense of proportion.

177 nonic  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:59:54am

re: #102 Sharmuta

And it was the moral thing to do to stand up to the Soviets. End of life counseling, not so much.

From the Palin quote: " panel of bureaucrats who would decide on levels of health care"

I think most people understand that there HAS TO BE panels or committees or whatever to decide on the efficacy and economics of various treatments. That's already in Medicare, Medicaid, most private insurance. And universal government-run insurance can only expand that in order to keep costs down.

And that's what Palin was/is talking about. Anyone might be for or against such standard-setting, decision-making panels.

But...

How does that get turned into "End of life counseling"?

178 McSpiff  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:59:54am

re: #165 Cato the Elder

KSM is getting two trials?

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:00:41am

re: #167 gulfloafer

I empathize with your position but why the constant venomnous hatred?

I don't know. Why the near-worship and the fanatic defense? I dislike the woman, and I know why. I don't see what anyone else sees in her.

180 MinisterO  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:01:23am

re: #170 Guanxi88

And humble to boot, just like Roosevelt.

181 Dynomite  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:01:29am

re: #177 nonic


But...

How does that get turned into "End of life counseling"?

Because, regardless of her revisionist history, the portion of the bill pointed to when they started calling out "Death Panels" was the portion that spoke about coverage of end of life counseling.

182 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:02:43am

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

Why? Is there any reason on God's earth I shouldn't dislike Sarah Palin? What has she ever done for me except insult me?

Personally? Or just in general?

Because I have seen comments here on LGF that would get you banned in a heartbeat if they were about Obama and his kids.

183 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:03:32am

re: #180 MinisterO

And humble to boot, just like Roosevelt.

Don't even get me started on Roosevelt, whose cigarette holders I am unworthy to behold.

184 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:04:12am

re: #152 Walter L. Newton

It's at the point where it has become old and borish.

185 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:04:29am

re: #130 Killgore Trout

I don't know how true that claim is. I haven't seen pictures of that one.

True, I haven't either. Must be guilty of letting my imagination running with it again...

186 vxbush  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:05:06am

re: #177 nonic

From the Palin quote: " panel of bureaucrats who would decide on levels of health care"

I think most people understand that there HAS TO BE panels or committees or whatever to decide on the efficacy and economics of various treatments. That's already in Medicare, Medicaid, most private insurance. And universal government-run insurance can only expand that in order to keep costs down.

And that's what Palin was/is talking about. Anyone might be for or against such standard-setting, decision-making panels.

But...

How does that get turned into "End of life counseling"?

I bolded a section above because one insurance company--and darn it, I cannot remember which--finally decided to stop reviewing every single doctor decision and deciding if it was acceptable medicine because they realized that, in almost all cases, the doctors were handling the care correctly and the insurance company was wasting money second-guessing that decision.

The decision-making really needs to be between doctor and patient, not doctor and insurance company. I've been in situations where the insurance company was determining care, and it was a disaster. The same will happen if the government steps into the position of insurance company (and I believe problems already exist with Medicare and Medicaid).

187 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:09:30am

re: #179 SanFranciscoZionist

Fanatic defense? From where? From who? The MSM? The AP?

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:09:49am

re: #182 Racer X

Personally? Or just in general?

Because I have seen comments here on LGF that would get you banned in a heartbeat if they were about Obama and his kids.

Take it up with Charles. Seriously, if unpleasant personal comments are made that cross the line, I'm in favor of that being discouraged.

However, I have seen absolutely nothing to convince me that the idea of this woman holding a national office isn't ridiculous, and like many urbanites, Blue-Staters, liberals and 'old-fashioned' feminists, I took her divisive schtick, and that of her fans, rather personally.

189 nonic  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:11:51am

re: #181 Dynomite

Because, regardless of her revisionist history, the portion of the bill pointed to when they started calling out "Death Panels" was the portion that spoke about coverage of end of life counseling.

I know. And that's what always bothered me. Palin initially said "death panels" and described a system of bureaucrats setting standards and in effect rationing care. BUT the media response was ALL ABOUT end of life counselilng, and most people seemed then and still now (?) to go right along with that. Click, clack, quick change the subject and ridicule something that nobody was really talking about. It was very effective.

I'm asking if today, now, people STILL read the words that describe a standard-setting, decision-making, care-rationing panel or commission and still, now, suddenly switch their thinking to "end of life counseling"? Like magic, or hypnotism.

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:12:13am

re: #187 gulfloafer

Fanatic defense? From where? From who? The MSM? The AP?

Right. No one supported poor lil' Sarah. There were no right-wing pundits on her side to balance the left-wing ones. Everyone was sooo mean to her.

Do you even hear how silly this sounds?

191 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:13:28am

First, I admit it. I like Sarah Palin. Second, I believe her when she gives the reasons for resigning the governorship. Third, I don't think she's going to run for office. Why should she? Fourth, I think that the kind of criticism she receives is just fine--nothing like underestimating the opponent's ability (as we saw from how team Obama used this to successfully run for the Democratic presidential nomination). Fifth, I like her--did I say that before? I have voted for people who I thought were competent--but I didn't like--Al Gore. I have voted for people who I thought might be incompetent--whom I liked. Reagan. I have voted for people whom I liked and thought competent. Clinton. I have voted for people who seemed rather incompetent, but who I sorta liked--W. All in all, it seems like the one that worked out best was Reagan. Sarah Palin is just as polarizing a figure as was Reagan. I lived overseas when he was running--and boy, if you think Bush was satirized--the mean-spirited hateful things said about Reagan around the world and emanating from the US (red-haired cowboy B-movie actor comes to mind)--well, memories are short. I like Sarah Palin. I think if she were to run in 2012, I would vote for her. She may be a creationist--so was George Washington, I'm sure. She may be a gun-toting mama--So was Annie Oakley and probably any number of the Founders' wives. She may be a meat-eater (oh heavens to Betsy Ross); She may be a strong mother of five (well, I dunno, Rose Kennedy, Ethel Kennedy, Queen Victoria?); she may have a handicapped child? (Gee, that would be back to the Kennedys, but I could certainly think of more); she may not have gone to a big important school (Lincoln? MLK? Truman?); she may be pretty and well dressed (Mrs. Obama? Now that's a sin, wouldn't it?); She may have ambitions and outspoken beliefs (Maggie Thatcher? Geraldine Ferraro? Madonna?)--and she may talk funny (well, Lord, I can only whisper this one: Jackie Kennedy--shhh--or Teresa Heinz Kerry); She may be proudly patriotic (that's us, right?) not interview well (Hillary, your turn); Finally, she may love her husband ... (Well, you got me on this one). As I said I like her. I think leaders around the world would, too (well not "dinah jab"), but she has charm--and she's got mojo, too. Levi "Ricky Hollywood" Johnstone may have been the left's hired gun, but I think he's already shot his wad, so to speak.
For those who don't agree? That's okay. We can agree to disagree, can we not? We've not come so far down a road that we can't see each other's point of view any longer, have we?

192 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:15:52am

re: #190 SanFranciscoZionist

Your talking about Fox news and am radio I presume? Let's be objective about it.

193 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:16:55am

re: #117 Surabaya Stew

Sambo is Indian--as in India. The book was written by Helen Bannerman when she lived in India--sent home as a letter to either her son in boarding school or a friend's child, can't remember off hand. It is a charming story and one of courage and conquest. I have never figured out who got hold of this name and destroyed it's message for the sake of political correcness.

194 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:20:21am

re: #78 filetandrelease

The thing is you can not tell from here. Probably not though. The panels will certainly not be deciding anything based on her "productivity to society" quote. The panels will be deciding along the lines of budget and resources. Refer to the bill itself for the details. Like the mammogram policy. Budget, efficacy, availability.

195 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:21:16am

re: #193 katemaclaren

Sambo is Indian--as in India. The book was written by Helen Bannerman when she lived in India--sent home as a letter to either her son in boarding school or a friend's child, can't remember off hand. It is a charming story and one of courage and conquest. I have never figured out who got hold of this name and destroyed it's message for the sake of political correcness.

Regardless of where and who wrote it, aren't the characters/location in the Sambo book based in Africa? (The hero of the book is called "Little Black Sambo", not for nothing!) I understand that the book has be re-released with updated characters that remove the racial element and its supposedly a charming story...but when I have my kids, I'll probably pass nevertheless.

196 nonic  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:21:43am

re: #186 vxbush

I bolded a section above because one insurance company--and darn it, I cannot remember which--finally decided to stop reviewing every single doctor decision and deciding if it was acceptable medicine because they realized that, in almost all cases, the doctors were handling the care correctly and the insurance company was wasting money second-guessing that decision.

The decision-making really needs to be between doctor and patient, not doctor and insurance company. I've been in situations where the insurance company was determining care, and it was a disaster. The same will happen if the government steps into the position of insurance company (and I believe problems already exist with Medicare and Medicaid).

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not looking to discuss the need for or effectiveness of such decision-making panels, because I don't want to get into any arguments with anyone.

My question at this time is very narrowly why do some people read or hear "decision-making panel" and respond as though the topic were "end of life counseling."

It's really weird, IMO.

It was a very effective tactic to change the subject and completely derail any real debate. Weeks/months ago, I likened it (here) to using the term "death tax" to mean estate tax. Or "choice" to mean abortion.

But even in those instances, I think people understood they were talking about the same thing -- just using euphemisms.

This one, switching the topic from talking about a decision-making panel to talking about end of life counselling, something entirely different, just really amazed me.

197 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:22:13am

re: #193 katemaclaren

Ever heard of or seen Sambo dolls, as in Japan?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

198 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:24:26am

re: #195 Surabaya Stew

No. India.

199 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:26:06am

re: #197 Rightwingconspirator

No. I made a Little Black Sambo doll for my son because he was such a fan. Right down to the purple shoes with crimson soles and crimson linings. I used a Raggedy Ann pattern. He carried that doll until the thing wore out--he had several stuffed tigers to go with it.

WE all know that tigers don't live in Africa, don't we? BENGAL tigers?

200 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:26:35am

re: #191 katemaclaren

But why would you vote for her?

All the qualities you listed are fine, but none of them point to why you would vote for her as President.

201 avanti  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:26:51am

Nate Silver gives 10 reasons Palin may win the nomination in 2012.

Palin.

202 nonic  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:26:57am

re: #193 katemaclaren

Sambo is Indian--as in India. The book was written by Helen Bannerman when she lived in India--sent home as a letter to either her son in boarding school or a friend's child, can't remember off hand. It is a charming story and one of courage and conquest. I have never figured out who got hold of this name and destroyed it's message for the sake of political correcness.

Yeah, me, too.

Here's this clever little kid who tricks dangerous tigers, saves his own skin and turns them into butter to take home to his family... and somehow, that's "racist"?

203 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:28:00am

re: #195 Surabaya Stew

You should read it before you decide to censor it. The racial element has nothing to do with the story except for one thing. Bannerman knew a little boy in India after whom she patterned the story. It is a happy story--a funny story--a really, really good story--and still a favorite in England and Australia. Really, I'm serious. Check it out.

204 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:28:28am

re: #192 gulfloafer

Your talking about Fox news and am radio I presume? Let's be objective about it.

No, I'm also talking about many mainstream columnists. Kathleen Parker was for her until she was against her. This was the case for a lot of prominent right-leaning writers. (George Will had his doubts from the beginning.)

But this is hardly my point. She clearly has supporters, and those are the people I was referring to. If this poor lady is so friendless, why is she still more in the public eye--and in a positive way--than the qualified man she ran with? How is she raising money? She has attracted fanatic support, albeit not from the Associated Press. Do you feel that this is not true, and that she currently exists in the public eye only as a punching bag for the "MSM"?

205 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:29:40am

re: #193 katemaclaren

Sambo is Indian--as in India. The book was written by Helen Bannerman when she lived in India--sent home as a letter to either her son in boarding school or a friend's child, can't remember off hand. It is a charming story and one of courage and conquest. I have never figured out who got hold of this name and destroyed it's message for the sake of political correcness.

It's a cute story. There's actually a redone version of it out now.

206 nonic  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:31:32am

re: #195 Surabaya Stew

Regardless of where and who wrote it, aren't the characters/location in the Sambo book based in Africa? (The hero of the book is called "Little Black Sambo", not for nothing!) I understand that the book has be re-released with updated characters that remove the racial element and its supposedly a charming story...but when I have my kids, I'll probably pass nevertheless.

He was called Little Black Sambo because at the time of the story (Victorian?) the British refered to Indians as black. Nowadays they call Indians "Asian."

See, I don't understand why acknowledging this clever little boy's race would be such a terrible thing. The story doesn't insult him. It points out how smart he is and admires him.

207 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:31:38am

re: #200 Obdicut

Well, it's like what the guy says when a husband comes home and catches him in the closet--nude. The husband asks him "What are you doing here?"
The naked man answers "Well, everybody has to be some place."
If she's running against Obama--I think she'll do better. That's why. If she's running in the primary against Romney, I would have to think about it. Who knows the future (if we did, we couldn't bear it, could we?)--I think she has demonstrated ability, she doesn't run away from her beliefs or hide behind them--I like her. I think she's sincere, honest, able, and kind. I also happen to believe she's dumb--like a fox.

208 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:31:57am

re: #205 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh dear!

209 nonic  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:34:53am

What about Riki-Tiki-Tavi, another fabulous and favorite story written by a Brit in and about India. The kid is British white, but it has a cobra and a mongoose. Is that "racist" then, too? Maybe because the kid is white?

210 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:34:53am

re: #207 katemaclaren


Why do you think she'd do better?

How do you feel she has demonstrated ability?

I do not feel you answered my question.

211 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:35:07am

re: #203 katemaclaren

You should read it before you decide to censor it. The racial element has nothing to do with the story except for one thing. Bannerman knew a little boy in India after whom she patterned the story. It is a happy story--a funny story--a really, really good story--and still a favorite in England and Australia. Really, I'm serious. Check it out.

Thanks for filling me on on the story background, but until we have "Little White Erik" and "Little Yellow Chong" to compliment Sambo...I'll pass! Seriously, Sambo is too far gone for rehabilitation; can't we just put the book to rest? (Also, seeing how England and Australia have gotten along so well with their racial minorities makes for another reason to be wary.)

212 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:35:47am

well, gotta go have some pancakes--those of you who have read LBS--will smile at this reference. Grrr. I'm the grandest tiger in the Jungle!

213 MinisterO  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:36:10am

Liberals would be lapping it up if Ghandi had said the death panels thing.

Palin is no different from Ghandi.

214 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:36:58am

re: #211 Surabaya Stew

We do. The Five Chinese Brothers; Ping; White Fang. Tikki Tikki Tembo; The Little Princess; Caps for Sale
I could go on and on.

215 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:38:22am

re: #206 nonic

He was called Little Black Sambo because at the time of the story (Victorian?) the British refered to Indians as black. Nowadays they call Indians "Asian."

See, I don't understand why acknowledging this clever little boy's race would be such a terrible thing. The story doesn't insult him. It points out how smart he is and admires him.

Agreed that it's not a book that makes Sambo look bad...but I'm not going to argue that fact to my African-American friends! Fact is, they hate the story, due to the way the name has been used to put them down, and that fact by itself ensures that it's beyond redemption.

216 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:39:33am

re: #211 Surabaya Stew

Have you lived there? I have--both. The British used to quite smug about their own race relations acumen--well, as you can see, the empirites came home to Mother England--and the Brits have certainly been humbled. Hubris. Hamartia.

217 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:41:27am

re: #215 Surabaya Stew

They haven't read the story. I will lay a bet on it. You can't even find it in this country--anywhere.
I took it to class (I have classfuls of African-Americans--to show them how blind prejudice can make one. Nothing like some sunlight.)...my students like it so much that I ended up buying copy after copy from Amazon UK--for these students who "hated" the book.

218 nonic  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:42:23am

re: #191 katemaclaren

She may be a creationist

That's another thing. What exactly IS a "creationist"?

I thought that a creationist was someone who took the first books of the Bible literally as scientific history.

But it seems that anybody who allows there is even a possibility that a Creator/God might exist who somehow in some fashion (maybe using a technique called evolution) might be responsible for the existence of the universe and life is now suddenly and irredeemably a "creationist."

It's either atheist or creationist? Is that the deal now?

219 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:42:47am

re: #39 ckb

I think she explained it rather well. "Death Panels" was always about rationing care, just the way care is currently rationed under Medicare. And given the state of that program, it is about to be rationed further.

She may have explained herself well, but the reality is that there is no such thing as a "death panel" or anything remotely like it in the bill. There was a section which would have provided payment for those seeking various types of end-of-life counseling - will preparation, medical power of attorney, the ramifications of hospice care and the lack thereof, and other such matters that, frankly, everyone ought to be doing anyway, but don't, the lack of which leads to horrific tragedies such as the Schiavo case. Since I periodically review my own arrangements for such matters, sitting down with an attorney every few years to review how I want my estate distributed, what ought to happen if I'm hooked up to medical life support and am unable to respond, who gets to make decisions concerning my medical care under such circumstances and so on, I see nothing at all wrong with aiding those put off by the expense of such tasks pay for them in hopes of getting better preparedness in place among a wider population. The number of people who haven't taken even the simplest of steps toward such planning is appalling, especially amongst younger people, and in nearly all cases you wouldn't care at all for the default procedures most states enforce by law, or would be very surprised by them.

In short, the whole "death panel" thing was pure, bullshit scare-mongering without even a trace of fact to back it up.

220 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:43:02am

I don't think very many people took Palin's "Death Panel" comment literally.
I do think most people with half a brain knew it was political fear-mongering.
The fact that her talking point was picked up and repeated by the far right does not necessarily mean that they en masse believe it to be the literal truth.

221 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:46:59am

re: #218 nonic

Palin specifically denied human evolution.

222 MinisterO  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:49:33am

re: #215 Surabaya Stew

The word "niggardly" is also tainted beyond repair for the obvious reasons. One may justifiably lament that a legitimate word is off-limits but I avoid it out of sensitivity, not some psychotic sense of political correctness.

223 Cineaste  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:50:38am

I figured it out - she forgot the /sarc tag! Reread it:

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil. /SARC

Ahh, that totally explains it.

///

224 nonic  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:53:20am

re: #217 katemaclaren

They haven't read the story. I will lay a bet on it. You can't even find it in this country--anywhere.
I took it to class (I have classfuls of African-Americans--to show them how blind prejudice can make one. Nothing like some sunlight.)...my students like it so much that I ended up buying copy after copy from Amazon UK--for these students who "hated" the book.

GOOD FOR YOU! And your students. It's so really, really sad that people have been TAUGHT to be racially defensive. I'll bet anything that when kids are taught to be defensive about the color of their skin they either internalize it and develop low self-esteem or externalize it and get hostile and angry.

I remember hearing a (black) father on NPR saying that he teaches his little daughter never to forget that white Americans held black Americans as slaves. And I thought to myself, gee, swell, Dad, make sure you really drum that into her so she grows up defensive and resentful and alienated from what she perceives to be "white" culture.

225 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:57:03am

re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist
Staying on point: When the average American household flipped on the news it wasn't Kathleen Parker or George Will doing the interview it was Katie Couric and Charles Gibson. (90% of the country have not a clue who George Will is) Does she have supporters in the here and now? Of course she does; her core message resonates with a sizable segment of the country. She's viewed in a more positive light than McCain is now because McCain is still in office; there's not a whole lot of love for office holders going around right now. And yes she still exists in the eyes of many as a punching bag.

226 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:02:47am

re: #225 gulfloafer

She always gives me a good workout, I'll say that for her.

Biff! Bam! Pow! Take that, you lying twit!

227 nonic  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:02:48am

re: #222 MinisterO

The word "niggardly" is also tainted beyond repair for the obvious reasons. One may justifiably lament that a legitimate word is off-limits but I avoid it out of sensitivity, not some psychotic sense of political correctness.

I think the word "black" is not allowed to be used in a lot of contexts now, too. Like "black hole." Some councilman somewhere was reprimanded for saying at a meeting that budget funds were disappearing down a "black hole." That was taken to be racist.

A "black spot" on one's record. The bad guy wearing a "black hat." A "black cat" being scary. A "black sheep" being disreputable. "Black clouds" foreboding ill. All of it insensitive at the very least.

228 nonic  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:03:23am

And then there's the word "gay."

229 MinisterO  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:03:34am

re: #223 Cineaste


The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

The density of hot-button phrases is downright amazing.

230 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:05:46am

re: #226 Cato the Elder

I don't get it?

231 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:08:30am

re: #222 MinisterO

The word "niggardly" is also tainted beyond repair for the obvious reasons. One may justifiably lament that a legitimate word is off-limits but I avoid it out of sensitivity, not some psychotic sense of political correctness.

Exactly! The avoidance of one word in normal conversation isn't a big deal. Likewise, having a single well-known book pushed out of the curriculum isn't changing much either. Perhaps I am wrong and it will be rehabilitated. Either way, it's just a kids book.

232 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:08:50am

re: #226 Cato the Elder

It took me a second. I forgot Palin's not your most favorite person.
I get it now.

233 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:11:25am

re: #217 katemaclaren

They haven't read the story. I will lay a bet on it. You can't even find it in this country--anywhere.
I took it to class (I have classfuls of African-Americans--to show them how blind prejudice can make one. Nothing like some sunlight.)...my students like it so much that I ended up buying copy after copy from Amazon UK--for these students who "hated" the book.

Well, perhaps time heals all wounds and Sambo will make a comeback thanks in part to your efforts. My questions is: why even make an issue of it when there are thousands of alternative books without the baggage? Is it that good a story?

234 MinisterO  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:13:25am

re: #227 nonic

Some councilman somewhere was reprimanded for saying at a meeting that budget funds were disappearing down a "black hole." That was taken to be racist.

That some councilman somewhere guy is always getting himself into trouble.

235 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:16:23am

re: #210 Obdicut

Why do you think she'd do better?

How do you feel she has demonstrated ability?

I do not feel you answered my question.


IMO, as an example, if she were the current POTUS, she would not try gitmo detainees in NY for one, she would have long ago made a decision on Afghanistan and would have cut taxes to stimulate the economy instead of a massive government spendolous bill. But that is opinion and speculation in reference to your first question.

Alaskans love her, to demonstrate her ability.

236 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:17:31am

re: #221 Obdicut

Palin specifically denied human evolution.


That one is unfortunate. But is not a litmus test for me because it eliminates too many conservatives, sadly.

237 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:19:06am

re: #226 Cato the Elder

She always gives me a good workout, I'll say that for her.

Biff! Bam! Pow! Take that, you lying twit!

You have a Sarah Palin blow up doll!? I want one!

238 claire  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:19:35am

re: #191 katemaclaren

First, I admit it. I like Sarah Palin. blockquote>

Nice defense- thanks. And I say that as an Atheist, pro-choice-monkey's niece...who has read her book, BTW.

As far as death panels, I think the quote marks around "death panel" might have been intended to take away some of the literal and move it toward aphorism, but that's simply my opinion. We already have boards that decide on cost vs. benefit in insurance companies. I understand the need for such a thing. As we invent newer and more expensive ways to keep people alive longer and longer, they become even more necessary. My problem with such a thing, is if there is only one "panel" and it is the government, what right do I have to redress the decision? I cannot sue the government. I cannot opt out of the health plan. I cannot switch to a private provider with a different decision tree if there aren't any around anymore. I think that's the crux of the argument. I don't feel comfortable giving such a thing that kind of power over me. Your mileage may vary and that's fine.

239 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:24:01am

re: #235 filetandrelease

IMO, as an example, if she were the current POTUS, she would not try gitmo detainees in NY for one, she would have long ago made a decision on Afghanistan and would have cut taxes to stimulate the economy instead of a massive government spendolous bill. But that is opinion and speculation in reference to your first question.

Alaskans love her, to demonstrate her ability.

You realize that the stimulus bill contained a huge tax cut, right?

You realize that everything else you said is pure speculation, right?

Do Alaskans still love her?

Palin's Popularity drops by thirty points

and that was before she resigned in the middle of her term.

240 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:25:38am

re: #221 Obdicut

Wait a minute! Humans are evolving?

241 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:27:11am

re: #220 Spare O'Lake

I don't think very many people took Palin's "Death Panel" comment literally.
I do think most people with half a brain knew it was political fear-mongering.
The fact that her talking point was picked up and repeated by the far right does not necessarily mean that they en masse believe it to be the literal truth.

I am trying to imagine this defense being applied to such a charge going the other way, politically speaking. I do not think folks around here would go for it.

242 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:27:23am

re: #240 gulfloafer

Wait a minute! Humans are evolving?

Everything is evolving. But yes, humans are too. Lactose tolerance, for example.

/couldn't tell if you were serious or not.

But more to the point, we evolved.

243 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:29:45am

re: #225 gulfloafer

Staying on point: When the average American household flipped on the news it wasn't Kathleen Parker or George Will doing the interview it was Katie Couric and Charles Gibson. (90% of the country have not a clue who George Will is) Does she have supporters in the here and now? Of course she does; her core message resonates with a sizable segment of the country. She's viewed in a more positive light than McCain is now because McCain is still in office; there's not a whole lot of love for office holders going around right now. And yes she still exists in the eyes of many as a punching bag.

She deserves to be. She was a terrible choice, and her 'message' is nothing more than fear-mongering and silliness.

I'm sorry 'the country' doesn't know who George Will is, but Sarah disgraced herself on both Couric and Gibson's interviews. I continue to not at all understand the passionate love and trust she inspires in so many--she does not deserve it in any way.

244 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:31:12am

re: #227 nonic

I think the word "black" is not allowed to be used in a lot of contexts now, too. Like "black hole." Some councilman somewhere was reprimanded for saying at a meeting that budget funds were disappearing down a "black hole." That was taken to be racist.

A "black spot" on one's record. The bad guy wearing a "black hat." A "black cat" being scary. A "black sheep" being disreputable. "Black clouds" foreboding ill. All of it insensitive at the very least.

You know, I live in deepest liberal Northern California, and I never hear this sort of thing. I have to doubt how widespread this terrible plague of political correctness really is.

245 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:34:44am

re: #242 Obdicut
Whew, I thought you were talking about evolution in the political sense. Don't scare me like that.

246 dugmartsch  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:35:06am

re: #39 ckb

I think she explained it rather well. "Death Panels" was always about rationing care, just the way care is currently rationed under Medicare. And given the state of that program, it is about to be rationed further.

Did anyone catch the new recommendation that women should not get routine mamograms until age 50, up from 40? How about that...

Because the risk of developing cancer as a result of the scan outweighs the detection rate at which they're likely to discover cancers in women before the age of 50.

Facts aren't that tough.

247 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:37:30am

re: #246 dugmartsch

Getting a mammogram causes cancer? who knew?

248 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:39:48am

re: #247 gulfloafer

Getting a mammogram causes cancer? who knew?

Radiation has been known to do that, yes.

249 countrockulot  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:46:35am

I want to address my referring to former Governor Palin as a gibbering moron. To me, while listening to the utter inanities that come out of her mouth, it became so evident that she has the intelligence of household appliance. Since she spouts off her half-baked prejudices and unresearched conspiracy theories at the drop of a hat. That leads, of course, to gibbering.

The term I used to describe the moron doing the gibbering should not be taken literally. The phrase is a lot like when Sarah Palin used to refer to the the rationing of care as a ‘death panel.’ She got her point across. She got unintelligent and uninformed people terrified and confused and angry about what she was talking about. It was quite effective. Same thing with the ‘gibbering moron.’ I would characterize her like that again, in a heartbeat.

250 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:49:01am

re: #248 SanFranciscoZionist
I've had my suspicions about the sun as well for quite some time now.

251 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:55:41am

re: #249 countrockulot

Way to stand up for your principles. I, for one, am very proud of you.

252 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:05:36pm

re: #239 Obdicut

You realize that the stimulus bill contained a huge tax cut, right?

You realize that everything else you said is pure speculation, right?

Do Alaskans still love her?

Palin's Popularity drops by thirty points

and that was before she resigned in the middle of her term.

Before the media attacks, her popularity was hovering around 80%, it did plument, the latest poll numbers I could find dated last July showed her around 56%, so she appears to have recovered somewhat.

And as I said in my post, I was speculating, which your question required.

253 claire  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:07:54pm

re: #249 countrockulot


She got unintelligent and uninformed people terrified and confused

OMG! You're right! The country is filled with gibbering morons who have to have their info pre-masticated for them or they might cower in abject terror and confusion and not be able to find their way at home at night. My God, she confused all the idiots in this country. The horror!

254 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:08:08pm

re: #227 nonic

I think the word "black" is not allowed to be used in a lot of contexts now, too. Like "black hole." Some councilman somewhere was reprimanded for saying at a meeting that budget funds were disappearing down a "black hole." That was taken to be racist.

A "black spot" on one's record. The bad guy wearing a "black hat." A "black cat" being scary. A "black sheep" being disreputable. "Black clouds" foreboding ill. All of it insensitive at the very least.

Hahaha you are making this up. It's funny, though! It's like a watered down George Carlin bit. 'A manhole cover has become a personhole cover!"

255 Logician  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:08:13pm

Wait. This discussion has become tangled.

Yes, Reagan's description was literally true. But it was also said in order to 'get people thinking'. There was a powerful taboo at the time against saying such things and Reagan, by insisting on breaking it, did cause a significant change.

But the 'death panels' claim is also literally true. The reason it is nevertheless somewhat underhand is that all methods of funding health care, including the present one, require institutions (such as insurance companies) to have policies about when expensive treatments will or will not be provided, in cases where the patient cannot fund them. So they are nothing new.

The legitimate free-market, anti-socialized-medicine point to make in regard to end-of-life issues is not that there will be death panels, but that government involvement will homogenize the industry so that an ever-increasing proportion of the population will be subject to a single, government-mandated criterion of whom it is worth saving, which they are effectively powerless to change by switching insurance companies as most of us currently can. One death panel rather than many competing death panels would indeed be a bad thing.

However, the end-of-life issue is far from the strongest one against increasing government involvement in the health care or health insurance industries.

256 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:11:29pm

re: #254 WindUpBird

Then this will have you in stitches ...

[Link: m.lasvegassun.com...]

257 dugmartsch  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:23:02pm

re: #255 Logician

Wait. This discussion has become tangled.

Yes, Reagan's description was literally true. But it was also said in order to 'get people thinking'. There was a powerful taboo at the time against saying such things and Reagan, by insisting on breaking it, did cause a significant change.

But the 'death panels' claim is also literally true. The reason it is nevertheless somewhat underhand is that all methods of funding health care, including the present one, require institutions (such as insurance companies) to have policies about when expensive treatments will or will not be provided, in cases where the patient cannot fund them. So they are nothing new.

The legitimate free-market, anti-socialized-medicine point to make in regard to end-of-life issues is not that there will be death panels, but that government involvement will homogenize the industry so that an ever-increasing proportion of the population will be subject to a single, government-mandated criterion of whom it is worth saving, which they are effectively powerless to change by switching insurance companies as most of us currently can. One death panel rather than many competing death panels would indeed be a bad thing.

However, the end-of-life issue is far from the strongest one against increasing government involvement in the health care or health insurance industries.

Thanks for disentangling.
/

How is the idea of a death panel literally true? Because there won't be a panel. It's funding for optional consultations with a doctor of your choosing about how you want to be cared for in case you are not in the position to communicate that information at the end of your life.

Death Panels are the invented fantasy of a paranoid mind.

MedPac wouldn't make decisions on the lives of individuals, and isn't empowered to remove procedures because they're 'too expensive.' It will have the power the recommend that procedures with unproven efficacy be defunded from medicare. If seniors want to buy riders to cover those procedures out of pocket, or pay out of pocket for those procedures, they will be free to do so. All recommendations of MedPac will require ratification by both houses of congress.

I'm not sure where you see the literal truth of a death panel in any part of the health care bill. Trying to compare herself to Regan is pretty standard Republican shtick, but most Republicans have learned to put a better veneer on it.

258 nonic  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:27:25pm

re: #257 dugmartsch

How is the idea of a death panel literally true? Because there won't be a panel. It's funding for optional consultations with a doctor of your choosing about how you want to be cared for in case you are not in the position to communicate that information at the end of your life.

Death Panels are the invented fantasy of a paranoid mind.

Please see at the Wall Street Journal, "The Rationing Commission" [Link: online.wsj.com...]

259 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:49:21pm

re: #252 filetandrelease

Before the media attacks, her popularity was hovering around 80%, it did plument, the latest poll numbers I could find dated last July showed her around 56%, so she appears to have recovered somewhat.

And as I said in my post, I was speculating, which your question required.

Wow, so it wasn't at all her fault that her popularity went down. And you're sure that Alaskans still like her even after she quit in the middle of her term.

You didn't need to speculate; you could have pointed to things that she's done, or said she'd do. You could point to specific policies. You didn't.

You also didn't bother to acknowledge that the stimulus bill contained a huge tax cut, which is something you said you favored.

re: #244 SanFranciscoZionist

Ditto. Not even in Bezerkely do I hear such nonsense.

260 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:50:17pm

re: #258 nonic

uhhh, that's an opinion piece.

261 Logician  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:52:11pm

re: #257 dugmartsch

How is the idea of a death panel literally true? Because there won't be a panel. It's funding for optional consultations with a doctor of your choosing about how you want to be cared for in case you are not in the position to communicate that information at the end of your life.

...I'm not sure where you see the literal truth of a death panel in any part of the health care bill.

I assume it's not in the bill, except implicitly in that increasing government involvement will homogenize the available options in regard to end-of-life issues as in all others. The funding of those optional consultations is not totally irrelevant to this, since it does indeed make people think about what such consultations (and all medical consultations) will look like when all insurance companies are using the same set of criteria.

By the way, I overstated my point, above, when I said that 'most of us can currently change the criteria' that will be used when we are ill, by changing insurance companies. The status quo is already very homogenized, largely by existing government intervention, so the free-market case would have to be that Obamacare would make that even worse.

262 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:19:53pm

re: #260 WindUpBird

Did you read that link I posted about the manhole covers? In my wildest dreams I'd never guess Las Vegas, of all places, would change the name to access covers to be politically correct.

263 Kruk  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:58:16pm

re: #255 Logician


The legitimate free-market, anti-socialized-medicine point to make in regard to end-of-life issues is not that there will be death panels, but that government involvement will homogenize the industry so that an ever-increasing proportion of the population will be subject to a single, government-mandated criterion of whom it is worth saving, which they are effectively powerless to change by switching insurance companies as most of us currently can. One death panel rather than many competing death panels would indeed be a bad thing.

How much choice would you have in switching insurance companies if you or your family member had an existing (and presumably expensive) condition that your current company's "death panel" wouldn't cover. Would the new insurer really be that eager to take someone who would cost them thousands of dollars? And if you were making the choice *before* you became sick, how would you which company's "death panel" suited you?

Also, it's not true that people in government funded systems are stuck with a "death panel" decision. They can, and do lobby to get decisions changed. In New Zealand, for example, PHARMAC (the agency that makes decisions on funding prescription medicines) wouldn't fund Herceptin (Trazumab) for early stage breast cancer. There was a huge outcry, and PHARMAC got over-ruled by the government. In the UK, NICE reversed a decision on funding a drug for kidney cancer. Would people have similar luck convincing an insurance company to change its policy?

264 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:01:55pm

re: #259 Obdicut

Wow, so it wasn't at all her fault that her popularity went down. And you're sure that Alaskans still like her even after she quit in the middle of her term.

You didn't need to speculate; you could have pointed to things that she's done, or said she'd do. You could point to specific policies. You didn't.

You also didn't bother to acknowledge that the stimulus bill contained a huge tax cut, which is something you said you favored.

re: #244 SanFranciscoZionist

Ditto. Not even in Bezerkely do I hear such nonsense.

The negative onslaught by the media certainly did not help her approval ratings in Alaska, or any where else. And it continues, while she gets stronger, amusing.

With tax cuts and give aways in the spendulous bill coming in somewhere just under 300 billion that is to be applauded.

The other 2/3rds, not so much.

It is difficult to answer you initial query with out some speculation. But to be specific on her record. She balanced her state budget and created a surplus. She fought and won corruption in her own party in her state.

She has an aggressive energy position "all of the above" and would like to go after our own resources.

Her move to step down as Governor is proving to be politically shrewed. She is now on the attack being relevant and is a force to be reckoned with. The left wanted her tied up in the court room, she out maneuvered them.

Her executive experience, small government mantra, aggresive stance on energy, combined with what appears to be a shrewd political acumen suggest she may be able to do better than our current POTUS.

IMO, and am only attempting to answer you initial query on why I think she might do better. The bar is set pretty low.

265 Claire  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:23:17pm

Did you know they were also throwing bogus ethics violations at her staff just to harass them? And they had to come up with their own money to defend themselves. She said she felt like she couldn't keep letting this happen to them- it was occupying all of their time and afforts and absolutely nothing was getting done as far as State's business. They did the same thing to Gingrich to get him cowed and out of the picture back in the day. I cannot, after the shameful treatment she has gotten, blame her for basically telling those sub-humans to stick it up their ass.

The politics of personal destruction. If one wants to go along and get along, one must put up with an unfair status-quo. Fuck that. It was a risk she took to quit, but I'm a fan of risk-takers, generally. Risk = leverage.

266 greensoccer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:27:20pm

I think there will be delays in health care delivery. Come to your own conclusions.

267 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:28:40pm

re: #264 filetandrelease

That you think she has shrewd political acumen leaves me so baffled I can offer no reply.

268 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:54:01pm

Former Governor Mrs. Sarah Palin is a paragon of virtue, an embodiment of all that is pure, just, and good in this world. She is physically, mentally, and spiritually incapable of doing any wrong.

///Yarrr!

269 Irish Rose  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:54:45pm

Charles

Not only did she make a very specific claim, she used her own child to do it. I think she did knowingly, deliberately lie, in order to rile up the right wing base — and it worked.

I agree with you, 100 percent.

270 nonic  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:55:52pm

re: #260 WindUpBird

uhhh, that's an opinion piece.

Yes, that's right. The Wall Street Journal editorial board has a bad opinion of the Medicare cost containment commission. And YOUR point is?

271 acacia  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:06:13pm

Wait a minute here. Her statement that the term "death panel" should not be taken literally is not the same as admitting it is false. The term is rhetorical. She even says she wouldn't hesitate to use the term again. I see no inconsistency. Interestingly, she did not say the words, "I didn't come from no monkey" as quoted. Her book contains her belief that she doesn't accept the theory of evolution as to humans but she did not say those words. The quote, although not entirely accurate, is "rhetorical" in order to emphasize a point. Doesn't using the term "death panel" serve the same purpose?

272 BethesdaDog  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:17:34pm

I, for one, think I might have had some monkeys among my ancestors, but I can't find out for sure, because the genealogy resources don't have the information. I'll keep looking for it, though. I'm not really ashamed of it.

I just had a banana, by the way. Maybe I inherited my like for this food.

273 Gray Skies  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:22:50pm

re: #98 Idle Drifter

I managed health insurance benefit appeal cases. It is so true that people simply do not read their policies. Every policy has terms, limitations, and exclusions. People simply do not bother to read their policy, and this can result in denied claims. Our company sold basic benefit packages to employer groups. Different employers purchased different policies for their employees. Some employers purchased riders to increase benefits beyond the basic package. What is covered for one employee of one company might not be covered for another employee of another company. Problems arose when doctors' offices, who didn't know any better, would tell patients that oh yes, your insurance company covers this, the patient would proceed with services based on that advice from the doctor's office, and then the claim would be denied because that patient's policy in fact did not cover the service.

274 Logician  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:53:00pm

re: #263 Kruk

How much choice would you have in switching insurance companies if you or your family member had an existing (and presumably expensive) condition that your current company's "death panel" wouldn't cover. Would the new insurer really be that eager to take someone who would cost them thousands of dollars? And if you were making the choice *before* you became sick, how would you which company's "death panel" suited you?

This is certainly a good argument that one should read one's policy at the time of signing it, not at the time of making a claim. But it does not address the argument that government involvement would reduce choice still further.

Also, it's not true that people in government funded systems are stuck with a "death panel" decision. They can, and do lobby to get decisions changed. In New Zealand, for example, PHARMAC (the agency that makes decisions on funding prescription medicines) wouldn't fund Herceptin (Trazumab) for early stage breast cancer. There was a huge outcry, and PHARMAC got over-ruled by the government. In the UK, NICE reversed a decision on funding a drug for kidney cancer. Would people have similar luck convincing an insurance company to change its policy?

Yes, government institutions in democracies can be affected by public opinion. But the opponents' point is that most people would not want their personal choices to be made by public opinion.

275 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 4:02:26pm

re: #267 Obdicut

pity.

276 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 4:03:46pm

re: #269 Irish Rose

Her own child, and those like him, would probably be first to head for the exit door. Personal decisions about abortion do it now. Social financial expediency will do it in the future.

277 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 4:05:33pm
278 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 4:05:56pm

re: #262 gulfloafer

That is amazing!!!...I wonder when women will be ...well wo-persons?

279 katemaclaren  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 4:12:42pm

re: #244 SanFranciscoZionist

What part of northern Cali? I used to live in Chico. I loved it.

280 Claire  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 4:35:36pm

re: #263 Kruk

How much choice would you have in switching insurance companies if you or your family member had an existing (and presumably expensive) condition that your current company's "death panel" wouldn't cover. Would the new insurer really be that eager to take someone who would cost them thousands of dollars? And if you were making the choice *before* you became sick, how would you which company's "death panel" suited you?

Also, it's not true that people in government funded systems are stuck with a "death panel" decision. They can, and do lobby to get decisions changed. In New Zealand, for example, PHARMAC (the agency that makes decisions on funding prescription medicines) wouldn't fund Herceptin (Trazumab) for early stage breast cancer. There was a huge outcry, and PHARMAC got over-ruled by the government. In the UK, NICE reversed a decision on funding a drug for kidney cancer. Would people have similar luck convincing an insurance company to change its policy?

How fast did the changes happen to policy after the out-cry? Would they have changed it for one person, or did it take a huge public embarrassment to force it to happen? Just recently, a local private insurer changed position and is now allowing a seriously expensive drug to be used for lupus even though it wasn't approved for it specifically because of one person's appeal and a story in the newspaper. It only took a couple of weeks for them to change their position. If you've ever had to deal with ironing out a snafu with the IRS, you fast learn that the power-tripping petty bureaucrats can let years go by before things are resolved in your favor, as they have no motivation to make things easier for their customers. Absolutely none. They have complete job security regardless.

At least, if you have choice of insurers and they screw over a member of your family, you can get some satisfaction by refusing to ever give them anymore of your money and taking your business elsewhere.

281 Hector1980  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:09:49pm

re: #8 MandyManners

Actually, that has became her shtick, she invokes Reagan as much as she can. She truly believes she is a female version of him. So reading this left me as unsurprised as her admission that she is a creationist.

It's time for someone to pull a "You're no Ronald Reagan" on her.

282 Petero1818  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:09:46pm

It seems to me she continues to display how not ready for prime time she is. How dare she take an issue of such importance and deliberately deceive and incite the population when so many were truly struggling to understand one of the US' most pressing problems. Quite the leadership quality. Maybe she should have to stand in front of a "death panel" and justify her own level of productivity. I can tell you, I am more likely to believe her down syndrome child is more a productive member of society that she is.

283 Kruk  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:27:49pm

re: #274 Logician

Yes, government institutions in democracies can be affected by public opinion. But the opponents' point is that most people would not want their personal choices to be made by public opinion.

How would reading your policy at the time of signing it help if you or a family member develop a condition (or need a new treatment) that isn't covered by your insurance company's policy? At that point, you're locked into that policy, because the chances are high that it'll be treated as a pre-existing condition by any other insurer you apply to, and excluded from coverage. Not only that, if you get coverage through your job, you effectively become job-locked to keep your coverage. If anything, the proposed changes, which prevent exclusion based on pre-existing conditions, would increase choice.

Also, I absolutely agree that public opinion isn't a good way of making changes. Both NICE and PHARMAC make their decisions through a set process which involves analysing clinical research, expert opinion from clinicians, and pharmacoeconomic analysis. However, in the event that a small minority of their decisions are out step with what the people want, I think it's good that these bodies are publically accountable.

284 Kruk  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:36:56pm

re: #283 Kruk

Ack. Just to be clear, I was replying to both parts of Logician's post, not just one. I didn't get the quoting quite right.

285 greensoccer  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:59:32pm

The way I see her, Myers Briggs wise, I think she is an ENFJ, which means that she is an intuitive feeler(valuer). I like to have such people in my life. People who believe in the Myers Briggs theory, believe the best decisions are made when all types contribute. If we are going to debate a national health policy, it is nice to have her feedback.

286 Lidanghazi  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:41:48pm

re: #281 Hector1980

Actually, that has became her shtick, she invokes Reagan as much as she can. She truly believes she is a female version of him.

If The Quitter From Wasilla actually believes that, she's delusional. I don't remember much about Reagan's presidency, since I was 7 when he got elected and was 15 when he left office, but even I know that he had much more charisma and much wider appeal than she ever will.

It's time for someone to pull a "You're no Ronald Reagan" on her.

But she doesn't mean the Reagan comparisons literally. She just throws them out there to get people to do research and figure out what she's talking about, don'tcha know.

287 JonathanD  Thu, Nov 19, 2009 3:58:21am

In her facebook posting she said "death panel" in quotes, not an actual panel but something similar and ultimately having the same effect.

288 filetandrelease  Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:35:38am

re: #267 Obdicut

That you think she has shrewd political acumen leaves me so baffled I can offer no reply.

Damn, I expected a swift kick in the nutts on that one. And your link was for the most part just opinion and had little to do with her manuver to go from defence to offence, which is what I am refering too. Time will tell, but my guess is her approval numbers will go up in the near future.

289 kittysaidwoof  Thu, Nov 19, 2009 8:11:36am

At least in Finland and Estland - two countries with state run health care which services I've used - we do have "death panels". Obviously they are not called that, but there are panels of unelected and unnamed officials who decide what gets covered and what not. It is true that sometimes their decisions get heavily lobbied against, but that often does not help individual cases. Sometimes - especially then the victim is a child - the case gets publicity and there are collections to get help in a particular case. But this is not always the case. I know of one family who went bankrupt fighting their daughter's leukemia when the "death panel" refused covering it.

The added problem in many European states is the bloated bureaucracy which is a sideproduct of long established state run health care system. Estland is often praised for its efficient system and compared to Finland it clearly is (note - I am talking about efficiency, i.e. rate of return, not total result which depends on the money spent) and I often think this is a result of a much newer system. As a result most who can afford in Finland as well as many other older states get private insurance and basically opt-out of the government system (while still financing it through their taxes).

I don't really know enough of the US system to have an informed opinion on it. I do know that most of the rest of the world relies on US to make the innovations in medical field, as in state run medicine there are few incentives to be innovative. For that reason I'm a bit scared what happens when you go our way.

As to Palin's "death panel" comment I think the term describes the committees and boards that will make and do make those decisions pretty accurately. As somebody correctly pointed out insurance companies make similar decisions and thus have their own "death panels". Perhaps the question is whether it is better that you get to choose your "death panel" yourself or not.

The comparison to Reagan's "Evil Empire" is also correct, although the insinuation, if intended, that Palin is equivalent to Reagan is of course ridiculous. While I totally agree that "Evil Empire" was an apt description of Soviet Union, as it was an empire that did evil things (IMO), it was not literally that. It wasn't called evil empire and its stated goals weren't evil. In the 80s its actions and level of suppression didn't much differ from other dictatorships. According to BBC's poll more than 60% of the Russians think the collapse of the Soviet Union was bad. I guess they wouldn't agree with Reagan's assessment, even if I do.


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