Poll: Clear Majority Opposes GOP Union-Busting

The right wing’s war on workers’ rights is unpopular

US NewsMarch 2011 • Views: 31,948

Right wing blogs are spinning like centrifuges today, desperately trying to minimize and discount the latest New York Times/CBS News poll — because it shows that a large majority of Americans are opposed to the right wing’s anti-union agenda.

The nationwide poll found that embattled public employee unions have the support of most Americans — and most independents — as they fight the efforts of newly elected Republican governors in Wisconsin and Ohio to weaken their bargaining powers, and the attempts of governors from both parties to cut their pay or benefits.

Americans oppose weakening the bargaining rights of public employee unions by a margin of nearly two to one: 60 percent to 33 percent. While a slim majority of Republicans favored taking away some bargaining rights, they were outnumbered by large majorities of Democrats and independents who said they opposed weakening them.

Those surveyed said they opposed, 56 percent to 37 percent, cutting the pay or benefits of public employees to reduce deficits, breaking down along similar party lines. A majority of respondents who have no union members living in their households opposed both cuts in pay or benefits and taking away the collective bargaining rights of public employees.

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187 comments

SteelGHAZI Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:14:47am

Didn't Fox once reverse the numbers to make it look like the majority was for union busting?

Kragar Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:15:07am

Exposing the Big Wisconsin Lie about "subsidized public pensions"

Among the reports that failed to scrutinize Gov. Walker' s assertions about state workers' contributions and thus got it wrong is one by A.G. Sulzberger, the presumed future publisher of The New York Times, who is now a national correspondent. He wrote that the Governor "would raise the amount government workers pay into their pension to 5.8 percent of their pay, from less than 1 percent now."

Wrong. The workers currently pay 100 percent from their compensation package, but a portion of it is deducted from their paychecks and a portion of it goes directly to the pension plan.

One correct way to describe this is that the governor "wants to further reduce the cash wages that state workers currently take home in their paychecks." Most state workers already divert 5 percent of their cash wages to the pension plan, an official state website shows.

recusancy Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:15:21am

Good video on the protests:

Youtube Video

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:15:53am

Yes Americans actually want the hard fought rights that unions gave them. Yes Americans do not want to go back to the days of the gilded age. Yes Americans understand that the plutocrats don't really love them.

Most importantly, Americans have asked that most American of all questions: What does this mean for me, and realized that aiding plutocrats to exploit the public is not in their own personal interest.

Grimalkin Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:17:29am

Not sure why they should worry, they just need to take a page out of the Fox News play-book and reverse the findings, LOUDLY, then quietly re-track them sometime later in 5pt. type.

HappyWarrior Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:18:06am

I just hope the backlash gets more and more people disbelieving the bullshit propaganda the right has spread about unions and their members. I really despise the word "union thug."

albusteve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:20:56am

I think the solution to collective bargaining and unfunded perks lies somewhere between bankruptcy and union busting...that said, poll after poll shows that Obamacare is highly unpopular with voters, so in the end I don't trust people that continuously vote against their better interests....some are democrats and some are republicans and the majority are not up to speed on issues

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:21:52am

re: #6 HappyWarrior

I just hope the backlash gets more and more people disbelieving the bullshit propaganda the right has spread about unions and their members. I really despise the word "union thug."

Right with you. It's a crying shame that Americans don't know history well enough to know what things were like in this nation before unions.

No such thing as safety in the work place. No such thing as workers comp for injuries. Workers docked pay for all sorts of frivolous reasons. Wages so low they kept people in a state of perpetual servitude. No such thing as pensions. 12 hour + workdays. Child labor.

It takes an extreme moron to not get that.

Then again we live in a nation of extreme morons with no more knowledge of history than a cat does of algebra.

dmon Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:24:08am

this is good news news to me. I am a union firefighter here in Ohio, the bill the legislature is pushing thru here is as bad or worse than Wisconsin.

My wife can tell this has me tied in knots, the future has suddenly become very scary.

Much worse than the financial aspect, is the things i see and hear, the folks calling us freeloaders, bums, thugs, or burdens on society.

I haven't worn anything that says firefighter outside the house unless I'm on duty, in weeks........ I told my wife that at 50 yrs old, I've never stolen a nickle form anyone in my life....... and I hate being told I've stolen wages and benefits from the taxpayer.

HappyWarrior Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:26:11am

re: #8 LudwigVanQuixote

Right with you. It's a crying shame that Americans don't know history well enough to know what things were like in this nation before unions.

No such thing as safety in the work place. No such thing as workers comp for injuries. Workers docked pay for all sorts of frivolous reasons. Wages so low they kept people in a state of perpetual servitude. No such thing as pensions. 12 hour + workdays. Child labor.

It takes an extreme moron to not get that.

Then again we live in a nation of extreme morons with no more knowledge of history than a cat does of algebra.

Yep, people forget before the labor movement got really strong you had middle school aged kids working in coal mines often from sun up to sun down six days a week. The labor movement in this country helped build the modern Middle Class. And you know as well as me that if we ever went back to conditions that precipated the formation of hte unions in the first place, the people crying about "union thugs" would be the first one demanding better conditions. Some people think shit just happens. It happens through a lot of blood, sweat, and tears.

Kronocide Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:26:27am

re: #9 dmon

Much worse than the financial aspect, is the things i see and hear, the folks calling us freeloaders, bums, thugs, or burdens on society.

What about all those schoolteachers, many of them women and little old ladies? They're all thugs?

Srlsly?

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:26:39am

re: #9 dmon

this is good news news to me. I am a union firefighter here in Ohio, the bill the legislature is pushing thru here is as bad or worse than Wisconsin.

My wife can tell this has me tied in knots, the future has suddenly become very scary.

Much worse than the financial aspect, is the things i see and hear, the folks calling us freeloaders, bums, thugs, or burdens on society.

I haven't worn anything that says firefighter outside the house unless I'm on duty, in weeks... I told my wife that at 50 yrs old, I've never stolen a nickle form anyone in my life... and I hate being told I've stolen wages and benefits from the taxpayer.

You never stole a damn thing. You were never paid enough for what you do in the first place.

I personally would like to see all the police and fire fighters and teachers refuse to serve anti-union Republicans. That might make them appreciate you more.

albusteve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:26:57am

re: #9 dmon

this is good news news to me. I am a union firefighter here in Ohio, the bill the legislature is pushing thru here is as bad or worse than Wisconsin.

My wife can tell this has me tied in knots, the future has suddenly become very scary.

Much worse than the financial aspect, is the things i see and hear, the folks calling us freeloaders, bums, thugs, or burdens on society.

I haven't worn anything that says firefighter outside the house unless I'm on duty, in weeks... I told my wife that at 50 yrs old, I've never stolen a nickle form anyone in my life... and I hate being told I've stolen wages and benefits from the taxpayer.

submit, resistance is futile....no matter what, some people will try their damnedest to drag you down so you might as well just look over their heads and keep yours held high...not every asshole on the planet needs to be heard

recusancy Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:27:05am

Kasich, Daniels, and Walker are burdens on society.

Simply Sarah Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:27:31am

It's the same playbook every time.

1. Declare a fiscal emergency where the local/state/federal government is going to run out of money.

2. Immediately take the possibility of any sort of new or increased tax (Or other obvious way of raising additional revenue) off the table. These should be dismissed out of hand as if the concept does not exist.

3. Pick (a) scapegoat(s) to blame. Ideally, they should be as many of the following as possible: poor, minority, liberal, union, public sector, middle class, immigrants. This group or groups will be the real cause of the problems.

4. Give a plan to save the budget that involves eviscerating support/pay/rights for the selected group(s). Insist that this is the only way and there are no other options.

5. Repeat as needed to twist government to your liking.

Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:28:14am

They just polled the wrong people.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:28:25am

re: #15 Simply Sarah

It's the same playbook every time.

1. Declare a fiscal emergency where the local/state/federal government is going to run out of money.

2. Immediately take the possibility of any sort of new or increased tax (Or other obvious way of raising additional revenue) off the table. These should be dismissed out of hand as if the concept does not exist.

3. Pick (a) scapegoat(s) to blame. Ideally, they should be as many of the following as possible: poor, minority, liberal, union, public sector, middle class, immigrants. This group or groups will be the real cause of the problems.

4. Give a plan to save the budget that involves eviscerating support/pay/rights for the selected group(s). Insist that this is the only way and there are no other options.

5. Repeat as needed to twist government to your liking.

Dead on. Just dead on. Republicans are scum.

recusancy Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:29:00am

re: #15 Simply Sarah

It's the same playbook every time.

1. Declare a fiscal emergency where the local/state/federal government is going to run out of money.

2. Immediately take the possibility of any sort of new or increased tax (Or other obvious way of raising additional revenue) off the table. These should be dismissed out of hand as if the concept does not exist.

3. Pick (a) scapegoat(s) to blame. Ideally, they should be as many of the following as possible: poor, minority, liberal, union, public sector, middle class, immigrants. This group or groups will be the real cause of the problems.

4. Give a plan to save the budget that involves eviscerating support/pay/rights for the selected group(s). Insist that this is the only way and there are no other options.

5. Repeat as needed to twist government to your liking.

Cut taxes for the rich and starve the beast.

albusteve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:29:17am

firefighters make too much money....meanwhile I paid $120 for these cool new shoes

Achilles Tang Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:30:47am

Some of these polls are created to a design. Newsmax.com (which I don't read but stumbled upon, possibly from an ad at LGF) is running a chain letter that they call a poll.

What Republicans think

Obviously this is biased to Republican voters since more or less 100% of those who voted Republican are against the unions in principle.

However even for a chain letter I find it suspect that they will get, by my count, something like 500,000 respondents to this survey.

Vicious Babushka Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:31:03am

re: #8 LudwigVanQuixote

Right with you. It's a crying shame that Americans don't know history well enough to know what things were like in this nation before unions.

No such thing as safety in the work place. No such thing as workers comp for injuries. Workers docked pay for all sorts of frivolous reasons. Wages so low they kept people in a state of perpetual servitude. No such thing as pensions. 12 hour + workdays. Child labor.

It takes an extreme moron to not get that.

Then again we live in a nation of extreme morons with no more knowledge of history than a cat does of algebra.

Soon it will be the 100th anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist disaster. Oh, and Triangle-like fires still happen.

recusancy Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:31:56am

re: #7 albusteve

I think the solution to collective bargaining and unfunded perks lies somewhere between bankruptcy and union busting...that said, poll after poll shows that Obamacare is highly unpopular with voters, so in the end I don't trust people that continuously vote against their better interests...some are democrats and some are republicans and the majority are not up to speed on issues

The solution to collective bargaining? There's no solution. It needs to remain.

mr.fusion Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:33:10am

re: #7 albusteve

poll after poll shows that Obamacare is highly unpopular with voters

That's not true

It's about 50-50 when you ask people if "Obama-care" should be repealed. However, when you break down the individual pieces (ie: pre-existing conditions, cost caps, etc) it comes down to about one in six that want it repealed. Of course the "individual mandate" is the most unpopular part of it.....which just means the people want all the benefits but don't want to pay for it. An attitude that's American as apple pie.

albusteve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:33:20am

re: #22 recusancy

The solution to collective bargaining? There's no solution. It needs to remain.

the solution to the grief collective bargaining seems to be

iossarian Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:33:39am

re: #19 albusteve

firefighters make too much money...meanwhile I paid $120 for these cool new shoes

200 channels only $79.99 a month... yeah baby...

Screw those union bastards, we can't afford what we're spending on teachers...

Blizard Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:33:55am

I've been watching the comments unfold in that NYT article over the last 24 hours. It is clear many people simply do not have a clue what is going on, and I fear it is too late for this great country. Have we gotten that blind to not see history repeating itself? They are pitting us against each other.

The stupid. It hurts.

recusancy Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:34:01am

re: #24 albusteve

the solution to the grief collective bargaining seems to be

It's a made up grief.

Thorzdad Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:34:09am

Any American who want to see the unions busted should also be asked if they would then be willing to give-up all of the benefits they enjoy thanks to the labor movement...Like their two-day weekends, paid holidays, eight-hour work days, etc.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:34:21am

re: #21 Alouette

Soon it will be the 100th anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist disaster. Oh, and Triangle-like fires still happen.

Absolutely. I can't imagine people not knowing about such things and having it clear.

Unions were the only way to prevent certain employers from squeezing people into dirt. In the case of the Triangle fire, those women were locked into a burning building. Why were they locked in? Because management didn't want them leaving their 12 hour shifts! Why was there a fire? Because management thought that it wasn't worth the cost of following even the lax safety standards of back then.

HappyWarrior Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:35:39am

re: #28 Thorzdad

Any American who want to see the unions busted should also be asked if they would then be willing to give-up all of the benefits they enjoy thanks to the labor movement...Like their two-day weekends, paid holidays, eight-hour work days, etc.

Have you seen the bumper sticker?
THe Unions: The folks that brought you the weekend
As I said above, I think some people think shit just happens rather than realizing that we've come a long way.

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:36:33am

As frustrations grew among the unemployed in 1935, 1,300 men boarded trains in Vancouver bound for Ottawa to demand work from the federal government in what came to be known as the On-to-Ottawa Trek. The issue came to a head in Regina, where the numbers had swelled to 1,800 by the time the Prime Minister intervened and ordered the protest to be disbanded. On the evening of July 1, 1935, a public meeting was called for in Market Square to bring the public up to date on what had happened so far. It was attended by 1500 to 2000 people, of whom only 300 were trekkers. The main body of the trekkers had decided to stay at the exhibition grounds.
Three large vans were parked on the sides of the square concealing RCMP riot squads. Regina police concealed themselves in a nearby garage. At 8 p.m. a whistle was blown and the police charged from their concealment, setting off hours of hand-to-hand fighting throughout the city's centre. The attack caught the people at the meeting by surprise, but then anger took over. They began to fight back with sticks, stones, and anything at hand. RCMP mounted on horseback then charged into the crowd and attacked with clubs. Driven from the Square, the battle continued in the surrounding streets for four hours. Trekkers on the speakers' platform were arrested by a body of police in plain clothes.
Rioters converging on an injured man

The police began firing their revolvers above and into groups of people. Tear gas bombs were thrown at any groups that gathered together. Plate glass windows in stores and offices were smashed. There was no looting, with one exception. People covered their faces with wet handkerchiefs to counter the effects of the tear gas and barricaded streets with cars. Finally the Trekkers who had attended the meeting made their way individually or in small groups back to the exhibition stadium where the main body of trekkers were quartered.
Riot damage at Underwood Typewriter Company, Regina

When it was over, 120 trekkers and citizens had been arrested. One plain clothes policeman had been killed. Hundreds of local citizens and Trekkers who had been wounded by police gunfire or otherwise injured were taken to hospitals or private homes. Those taken to hospital were also arrested. Property damage was considerable. The police claimed 39 injuries in addition to the one in plain clothes who had been killed.

The city's exhibition grounds were surrounded by constables armed with revolvers and machine guns. The next day a barbed wire stockade was erected around the area. The Trekkers in the stadium were denied any food or water. News of the police-inspired riot made the front page in newspapers across Canada. About midnight one of the Trek leaders telephoned Premier Gardiner who agreed to meet their delegation the next morning. The RCMP were livid when they heard of this. They took the men to the police station for interrogation but finally released them so they could see the premier.

This type of story is one reason unions formed and why modern union busting would be nothing more than atavistic violence.

recusancy Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:37:24am

Ending collective bargaining IS union busting.

dmon Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:37:39am

Weekends?..... we've just recently been able to bargain down to 48 hour work week.....

Police and fire can be worked up to 56 hrs per week per federal law...... we are lucky.....many here in the state still work the 56 hour schedule

lostlakehiker Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:38:37am

re: #4 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes Americans actually want the hard fought rights that unions gave them. Yes Americans do not want to go back to the days of the gilded age. Yes Americans understand that the plutocrats don't really love them.

Most importantly, Americans have asked that most American of all questions: What does this mean for me, and realized that aiding plutocrats to exploit the public is not in their own personal interest.

The taxpayers and citizens of Wisconsin are not plutocrats.

Romantic Heretic Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:39:01am

re: #24 albusteve

the solution to the grief collective bargaining seems to be

You would prefer one side or the other to just tell everyone else what they're going to do and too bad if they don't like it?

Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:39:10am

re: #29 LudwigVanQuixote

Absolutely. I can't imagine people not knowing about such things and having it clear.

Unions were the only way to prevent certain employers from squeezing people into dirt. In the case of the Triangle fire, those women were locked into a burning building. Why were they locked in? Because management didn't want them leaving their 12 hour shifts! Why was there a fire? Because management thought that it wasn't worth the cost of following even the lax safety standards of back then.

They were also afraid that the women would steal some of the fabric.

recusancy Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:39:15am

re: #34 lostlakehiker

The taxpayers and citizens of Wisconsin are not plutocrats.

The taxpayers and citizens who got the biggest tax cuts are.

HappyWarrior Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:39:33am

The people who talk loudly about "union thugs" never talk about things like Homestead. Someone here posted Rand Paul's ridiculous ad that said some crap about "hating the boss." Well, shit in the past if you went against the boss he would hire private police to actually fire on you and your coworkers. People need to look at how brutal management was and still is in some places before they cry about union thugs.

iossarian Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:39:56am

re: #34 lostlakehiker

The taxpayers and citizens of Wisconsin are not plutocrats.

The vast majority "taxpayers and citizens" of Wisconsin are not best served by cutting the taxes of rich people and gutting state education and safety provision.

Simply Sarah Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:40:01am

More people than I can count have told me something along the lines "Unions had their point at one time, but now they're just a problem/aren't needed". I'll admit to buying into some of this for a time. Then, I realized that what people were really complaining about is how union workers weren't getting fucked over as badly as they and other non-union workers were, so they just want to drag unions down to their level. It's a race to the bottom, trying to see just how little we are willing to work for.

engineer cat Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:40:30am

Right wing blogs are spinning like

but i thought everybody knew that ~~the irish communists muslims mexicans~~ high school teachers are the greatest threat to the american way of life today!!1!1
///

albusteve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:40:42am

re: #35 Romantic Heretic

You would prefer one side or the other to just tell everyone else what they're going to do and too bad if they don't like it?

my preferences have nothing to do with anything

Achilles Tang Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:40:45am

re: #30 HappyWarrior

Have you seen the bumper sticker?
THe Unions: The folks that brought you the weekend
As I said above, I think some people think shit just happens rather than realizing that we've come a long way.

The difference between then and now is that then one had to buy paper pen and stamps to be heard and and go to meetings and pay for newspapers to be informed. Only those with motivation and knowledge bothered to get involved.

Now any fool can, and whatever benefits one can give to that it is a double edged sword.

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:41:12am

re: #34 lostlakehiker

The taxpayers and citizens of Wisconsin are not plutocrats.

The taxpayers and citizens (shouldn't those two groups overlap?) are being fed misinformation by the mouthpieces hired by plutocrats.

dmon Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:41:27am

American workers have bought into the theory that if we just treat those at the top, they'll let us keep working for them.

iossarian Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:41:52am

re: #45 dmon

American workers have bought into the theory that if we just treat those at the top, they'll let us keep working for them.

And the devil take the hindmost.

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:42:43am

re: #41 engineer dog

Right wing blogs are spinning like

but i thought everybody knew that ~~the irish communists muslims mexicans~~ high school teachers are the greatest threat to the american way of life today!!1!1
///

Whatever you do, do not mention kindergarten teachers.

mr.fusion Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:44:10am

re: #40 Simply Sarah

More people than I can count have told me something along the lines "Unions had their point at one time, but now they're just a problem/aren't needed". I'll admit to buying into some of this for a time. Then, I realized that what people were really complaining about is how union workers weren't getting fucked over as badly as they and other non-union workers were, so they just want to drag unions down to their level. It's a race to the bottom, trying to see just how little we are willing to work for.

Personally, I look at unions the same way I look at corporations. Corporations/Business is in the business of making money. Period. I don't fault them for that or hold it against them, it's what they do. Now, I look at government and regulations as necessary checks against it getting out of control, like say for instance mortgage companies decided to bundle shitty loans, sell them and then bet against them. But I don't necessarily blame businesses for that, they were doing what they were made to do. I blame the lax oversight.

Same with the unions. It's their jobs to get better benefits, higher salaries, etc for their members. It's not their fault that they're good at what they do.

The difference is, with the unions when you make the case that they are hurting the middle class with out of control pensions, double dipping, etc they seem more than willing to come to the table and reconfigure their current arrangements as we've seen in WI already......

Business? Not so much

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:45:31am

re: #45 dmon

American workers have bought into the theory that if we just treat those at the top, they'll let us keep working for them.

Being paid what your work is worth is only for CEOs and entertainers.

Simply Sarah Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:45:49am

re: #48 mr.fusion

The fact that unions feel that they need to come to the table would seem to suggest their power isn't as all reaching as many of the right want to claim it is.

HappyWarrior Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:48:09am

It's too bad there aren't more men like my grandfather still around. He was an arbitrator at hte NLRB for many years. He was willing to sit down and listen to both sides of an argument. Of course, the idea of the NLRB itself is considered "Communist" to some. Even read this literally happened to him when he was investigating a case in more rural Michigan.

engineer cat Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:48:18am

re: #48 mr.fusion

Business? Not so much

a vice president once told me: "a corporation is not a democracy"

democracy ends at the corporation's door

HappyWarrior Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:52:13am

re: #48 mr.fusion

Personally, I look at unions the same way I look at corporations. Corporations/Business is in the business of making money. Period. I don't fault them for that or hold it against them, it's what they do. Now, I look at government and regulations as necessary checks against it getting out of control, like say for instance mortgage companies decided to bundle shitty loans, sell them and then bet against them. But I don't necessarily blame businesses for that, they were doing what they were made to do. I blame the lax oversight.

Same with the unions. It's their jobs to get better benefits, higher salaries, etc for their members. It's not their fault that they're good at what they do.

The difference is, with the unions when you make the case that they are hurting the middle class with out of control pensions, double dipping, etc they seem more than willing to come to the table and reconfigure their current arrangements as we've seen in WI already...

Business? Not so much

I think you're right. I see unions as far willing to make concessions more so than management. I believe California under Governor Brown has had to make similiar decisions involving pensions and while the members there aren't happy, they seem amiable to it. Walker pissed the boat I think when he threatened to talk away their collective bargaining rights which I still don't see has anything to do with the budget. Business and business interssts on the other hand seems to flip out whenever there's a proposed tax increase.

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:52:17am

The magic hand of free enterprise will gar-on-tee corporations do not ever treat workers as they did prior to unions.

///^{\^{///\_{///_{\_///^\}}}}

mr.fusion Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:52:48am

re: #50 Simply Sarah

The fact that unions feel that they need to come to the table would seem to suggest their power isn't as all reaching as many of the right want to claim it is.

Or maybe they're just reasonable and care about the middle class.

I agree with you in part about the unions not being as almighty as the right would claim, however......

If those 100's of thousands of Wisconsonites that have been gathering in the Capital over the last 2 weeks would have voted in November, made phone calls on behalf of their candidate, knocked doors on behalf of their candidates, etc etc......their power would increase exponentially.

As much as I stand side by side with my brothers and sisters in Madison WI, I can't help but be a little perturbed. Honestly, what is stopping them from electing a Democrat in 2014 that would reverse all of this nonsense? I understand that 4 years of slashed benefits and demonization could severely cripple families of Wisconsin's middle class and that's a darn shame........but where was this passion in November when we needed it?

dmon Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:53:10am

Over my 19 years........i've been out there when it was 5 below and when it was 105........ been in situations where I was literally scared to death..... everything from floors collapsing in house fires to being assaulted, Ive worked my ass off trying to keep a 3 year old alive after her dad beat her head against the wall, ..... in all those situations I didnt work my ass off because of my pay and benefits,,,,,, I did it because I have huge amount of pride in what I do.

If thats the definition of a union thug....im a thug

Decatur Deb Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:53:32am

re: #35 Romantic Heretic

You would prefer one side or the other to just tell everyone else what they're going to do and too bad if they don't like it?

That was the General Electric Co's only bargaining position until we broke it in a 101 day strike in 1969.

[Link: www.google.com...]

Simply Sarah Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:54:12am

re: #55 mr.fusion

Or maybe they're just reasonable and care about the middle class.

I agree with you in part about the unions not being as almighty as the right would claim, however...

If those 100's of thousands of Wisconsonites that have been gathering in the Capital over the last 2 weeks would have voted in November, made phone calls on behalf of their candidate, knocked doors on behalf of their candidates, etc etc...their power would increase exponentially.

As much as I stand side by side with my brothers and sisters in Madison WI, I can't help but be a little perturbed. Honestly, what is stopping them from electing a Democrat in 2014 that would reverse all of this nonsense? I understand that 4 years of slashed benefits and demonization could severely cripple families of Wisconsin's middle class and that's a darn shame...but where was this passion in November when we needed it?

Sadly, that's how politics often works. It's not who has the majority that matters, it's who can energize their supporters.

Stanghazi Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:56:21am

Apparently the Capitol was ordered open to the public today by court order.

cruiskeen cruiskeen

Walker Flagrantly Disobeying Court Order to Re-Open Capitol [Link: tinyurl.com...]

recusancy Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:56:33am

re: #55 mr.fusion

Or maybe they're just reasonable and care about the middle class.

I agree with you in part about the unions not being as almighty as the right would claim, however...

If those 100's of thousands of Wisconsonites that have been gathering in the Capital over the last 2 weeks would have voted in November, made phone calls on behalf of their candidate, knocked doors on behalf of their candidates, etc etc...their power would increase exponentially.

As much as I stand side by side with my brothers and sisters in Madison WI, I can't help but be a little perturbed. Honestly, what is stopping them from electing a Democrat in 2014 that would reverse all of this nonsense? I understand that 4 years of slashed benefits and demonization could severely cripple families of Wisconsin's middle class and that's a darn shame...but where was this passion in November when we needed it?

It's the way humans work. You can't single them out. If things are ok it's hard to muster passion all the time. The passion comes when we want to move forward, or in this case, when we're threatened to be moved backwards.

Varek Raith Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:57:06am

re: #59 Stanley Sea

Apparently the Capitol was ordered open to the public today by court order.

cruiskeen cruiskeen

Walker Flagrantly Disobeying Court Order to Re-Open Capitol [Link: tinyurl.com...]

El Presidente!

dmon Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:58:16am

re: #55 mr.fusion

You'll find that although the unions publicly endorsed the democrats, a large percentage of the rank and file dont vote that way, they become greedy and want that tax cut the republicans talk about......

This could backfire on the GOP for a long time, it will be next to impossible to get a union vote in wisconsin.

Neither in Ohio or Wisconsin did the governors mention taking away collective bargaining in their campaigns

Myself..... Ive voted Democrat for almost 2 decades

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 11:58:22am

re: #54 b_sharp

The magic hand of free enterprise will gar-on-tee corporations do not ever treat workers as they did prior to unions.

The free market is what ended child labor and it could have brought down Jim Crow laws as well as ending civil rights injustices!

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:00:25pm

re: #56 dmon

Over my 19 years...i've been out there when it was 5 below and when it was 105... been in situations where I was literally scared to death... everything from floors collapsing in house fires to being assaulted, Ive worked my ass off trying to keep a 3 year old alive after her dad beat her head against the wall, ... in all those situations I didnt work my ass off because of my pay and benefits,,, I did it because I have huge amount of pride in what I do.

If thats the definition of a union thug...im a thug

People who work at jobs involving mostly physical labour are highly likely to be motivated by money, people with more intellectual jobs are most likely to be motivated by personal pride, freedom to make work related decisions, responsibility and peer recognition than money.

I suspect your job has more in common with decision making than digging trenches.

albusteve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:00:59pm

re: #63 Gus 802

The free market is what ended child labor and it could have brought down Jim Crow laws as well as ending civil rights injustices!

//

the free market just moved the child labor issue offshore

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:01:29pm

re: #8 LudwigVanQuixote

Right with you. It's a crying shame that Americans don't know history well enough to know what things were like in this nation before unions.

No such thing as safety in the work place. No such thing as workers comp for injuries. Workers docked pay for all sorts of frivolous reasons. Wages so low they kept people in a state of perpetual servitude. No such thing as pensions. 12 hour + workdays. Child labor.

It takes an extreme moron to not get that.

Then again we live in a nation of extreme morons with no more knowledge of history than a cat does of algebra.

I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal
And the straw boss said "Well, a-bless my soul"

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:01:50pm

This is the ultimate human disconnect: labor has come to be seen as just another expense to be minimized in order to enhance profits for investors.

This places people on the same level as paper clips, toner and toilet paper.

On the other hand, if every worker was also a shareholder, then they might view things differently, But making everyone a shareholder would be, well, socialism.

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:03:23pm

re: #65 albusteve

the free market just moved the child labor issue offshore

They did? Offshore? But I thought the free market cared about "the children!" and was all patriotic and stuff.

Kragar Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:03:25pm

re: #65 albusteve

the free market just moved the child labor issue offshore

Next, we kill the Prime Minister of Malaysia!
///

Decatur Deb Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:03:28pm

re: #65 albusteve

the free market just moved the child labor issue offshore

And we can chase it down there through the International Labor Organization (a UN agency), boycotts, and support for third-world labor organizers. They are brave to the point of suicide, as ours were in the early XX Cent.

Big Steve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:04:03pm

Plutocracy......damn that word has become over-used fast....is there some secret memo that I missed calling for its use. I am sorry but every time I hear it I think of Belushi's character in Animal House.

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:04:36pm

You know. This line really is pretty funny:

Right wing blogs are spinning like centrifuges today...

Varek Raith Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:04:48pm

re: #71 Big Steve

Plutocracy...damn that word has become over-used fast...is there some secret memo that I missed calling for its use. I am sorry but every time I hear it I think of Belushi's character in Animal House.

Vicious Babushka Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:05:08pm

Should IT workers form a union?

Varek Raith Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:05:37pm

re: #73 Varek Raith

?
Let's try that again!

Plutocracy
–noun, plural -cies.
1.
the rule or power of wealth or of the wealthy.
2.
a government or state in which the wealthy class rules.
3.
a class or group ruling, or exercising power or influence, by virtue of its wealth.

Decatur Deb Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:06:18pm

re: #74 Alouette

Should IT workers form a union?

Too nerdy for unions. They should form a Guild.

SpaceJesus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:07:04pm

Hopefully all the winger insanity will make people show up to the polls next time.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:07:27pm

re: #30 HappyWarrior

Have you seen the bumper sticker?
THe Unions: The folks that brought you the weekend
As I said above, I think some people think shit just happens rather than realizing that we've come a long way.

Hell, you get the same thing with women who just assume that they can vote, apply for any job, get paid the same wage as a man, and be treated like a human being under the law, but give no thanks to those boring old killjoy FEMINISTS who, like, burned their bras and stupid stuff.

"I'm not a feminist because, like, I like men, and pretty stuff..."

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:07:30pm

re: #71 Big Steve

Plutocracy...damn that word has become over-used fast...is there some secret memo that I missed calling for its use. I am sorry but every time I hear it I think of Belushi's character in Animal House.

Well: A plutocracy is government by the wealthy. Does the GOP really stand for much else other than creating a theocracy to serve the plutocracy?

It is not overused.

Kronocide Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:07:38pm

The politicians are the thugs. They don't swing the billy clubs or lead pipes, they swing the bullhorns that control the billy clubs and lead pipes.

Varek Raith Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:07:40pm

re: #76 Decatur Deb

Too nerdy for unions. They should form a Guild.

Ye Olde Tecnocratic Guild

Big Steve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:07:50pm

re: #75 Varek Raith

?
Let's try that again!

I know what it means......its just become cliche already....kind of like "patriarchy" has.

Varek Raith Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:08:39pm

re: #81 Varek Raith

Ye Olde Technocratic Guild

LEARN TO SPELL, VAREK!

Vicious Babushka Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:09:19pm

re: #76 Decatur Deb

Too nerdy for unions. They should form a Guild.

Joking aside, over 20 years ago the UAW tried to organize the tech workers at GM after Ross Perot took over the IT department which totally screwed over a lot of GM workers with seniority. It was like "herding cats" which EDS actually used in an ad campaign.

albusteve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:09:29pm

re: #79 LudwigVanQuixote

Well: A plutocracy is government by the wealthy. Does the GOP really stand for much else other than creating a theocracy to serve the plutocracy?

It is not overused.

yup, my thoughts exactly

scienceisreal Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:10:04pm

Myself and several of my coworkers actually spent the morning talking to various right wing commentators about how to correctly interpret these poll numbers. The statements I've heard from them make it obvious they have no understanding of statistics (I just spent an hour trying to explain the difference in individual and household level measures to some people at Commentary Magazine, with no success).

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:10:38pm

re: #79 LudwigVanQuixote

Well: A plutocracy is government by the wealthy. Does the GOP really stand for much else other than creating a theocracy to serve the plutocracy?

It is not overused.

Theocracies (or religions) are notoriously used by the ruling class to distract the populace.

Decatur Deb Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:10:55pm

re: #84 Alouette

Joking aside, over 20 years ago the UAW tried to organize the tech workers at GM after Ross Perot took over the IT department which totally screwed over a lot of GM workers with seniority. It was like "herding cats" which EDS actually used in an ad campaign.

I almost never joke. I've been telling my code-monkey kid for years to form a guild.

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:11:32pm

re: #88 Decatur Deb

I almost never joke. I've been telling my code-monkey kid for years to form a guild.

A Guild? What do you have against Gibsons?

Targetpractice Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:12:16pm

re: #63 Gus 802

The free market is what ended child labor and it could have brought down Jim Crow laws as well as ending civil rights injustices!

//

I shit you not, I heard that exact argument the other day. Or rather, I got told that items like child labor laws were unconstitutional, because the government had no place in telling corporations how to conduct themselves. After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I asked him what the government should have done that would have been, in his opinion, constitutional. His "solution" was that the government should have told folks the truth about child labor, encouraged folks not to purchase goods from companies that used child labor, to send out ads speaking against the cruelties of child labor.

My response was just to roll my eyes and told him if that actually worked, cigarette smoking would have died out in this country decades ago.

Decatur Deb Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:12:22pm

re: #89 Gus 802

Guitars, right?

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:12:31pm

re: #86 scienceisreal

Myself and several of my coworkers actually spent the morning talking to various right wing commentators about how to correctly interpret these poll numbers. The statements I've heard from them make it obvious they have no understanding of statistics (I just spent an hour trying to explain the difference in individual and household level measures to some people at Commentary Magazine, with no success).

For crying out loud, statistics needs to be taken literally. If the average US family has 2.5 kids, you better damn well start looking for that half a kid.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:12:38pm

re: #82 Big Steve

I know what it means...its just become cliche already...kind of like "patriarchy" has.

Only the Republicans really are Plutocrats.

How else would you get them fighting for the rights of INsuruance companies at te expense of individual Americans. How else would you et them fighting for corporate welfare? How else would you get them fighting for endless tax cuts to the rich and an ever increasing burden on the middle class?

How else would you get them fighting to deny science itself so that their corporate masters can destroy our ecology to the detriment of all.

They are not just plutocrats, but parasitic plutocrats who kill their host.

mr.fusion Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:12:58pm

interesting:

link

Yes, that's right. Not only are Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity are members of the AFTRA, so are Ann Coulter and Sarah Palin.

The American Federation of Television and Radio Artists is a union representing professional actors, dancers, singers, and wait for it..... broadcasters. AFTRA is also a part of the AFL-CIO and like any good brother of the nations largest union, they monitor enforcement of prior contract's negotiated, advocates on legislative and public policy issues that directly affect members' wages and working conditions, and provides a great deal of members benefits, including "The Health Fund."

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:12:58pm

re: #87 Gus 802

Theocracies (or religions) are notoriously used by the ruling class to distract the populace.

Indeed. We are surely seeing it here and now.

albusteve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:13:29pm

re: #91 Decatur Deb

Guitars, right?

and lesser apes

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:14:06pm

re: #90 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I shit you not, I heard that exact argument the other day. Or rather, I got told that items like child labor laws were unconstitutional, because the government had no place in telling corporations how to conduct themselves. After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I asked him what the government should have done that would have been, in his opinion, constitutional. His "solution" was that the government should have told folks the truth about child labor, encouraged folks not to purchase goods from companies that used child labor, to send out ads speaking against the cruelties of child labor.

My response was just to roll my eyes and told him if that actually worked, cigarette smoking would have died out in this country decades ago.

I know. I based that joke on reality. This is a line we've been hearing since the Tea Party uprising in congress. Randian, Paulian, big "L" libertarianism. The "free market" can solve everything according to these folks.

Varek Raith Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:14:58pm

re: #94 mr.fusion

interesting:

link

Image: 471_irony-bird.jpg

Big Steve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:15:23pm

re: #93 LudwigVanQuixote

Only the Republicans really are Plutocrats.

How else would you get them fighting for the rights of INsuruance companies at te expense of individual Americans. How else would you et them fighting for corporate welfare? How else would you get them fighting for endless tax cuts to the rich and an ever increasing burden on the middle class?

How else would you get them fighting to deny science itself so that their corporate masters can destroy our ecology to the detriment of all.

They are not just plutocrats, but parasitic plutocrats who kill their host.

but clearly not an overused word

100

HypnoToad Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:15:24pm

re: #81 Varek Raith

Ye Olde Tecnocratic Guild

The Order of TechnoMages

101

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:15:33pm

re: #91 Decatur Deb

Guitars, right?

Yep.

102

Kragar Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:15:52pm

re: #81 Varek Raith

Ye Olde Tecnocratic Guild

The Adeptus Mechanicus.

103

Varek Raith Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:16:31pm

re: #100 HypnoToad

The Order of TechnoMages

re: #102 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Adeptus Mechanicus.

Hmmm...
Decisions, decisions...

104

Kragar Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:17:04pm

re: #98 Varek Raith

105

Simply Sarah Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:17:11pm

re: #90 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

See, I'd have stopped listening at the point where he seems to miss that corporations only exist because of the government.

106

Dustoff848 Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:17:11pm

re: #8 LudwigVanQuixote

Right with you. It's a crying shame that Americans don't know history well enough to know what things were like in this nation before unions.

No such thing as safety in the work place. No such thing as workers comp for injuries. Workers docked pay for all sorts of frivolous reasons. Wages so low they kept people in a state of perpetual servitude. No such thing as pensions. 12 hour + workdays. Child labor.

It takes an extreme moron to not get that.

Then again we live in a nation of extreme morons with no more knowledge of history than a cat does of algebra.

Although unions had their time, that time has passed. Its time to move on.

107

Decatur Deb Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:17:17pm

re: #102 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Adeptus Mechanicus.

Boolean Brotherhood.

108

Kragar Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:18:19pm

re: #106 Dustoff848

Although unions had their time, that time has passed. Its time to move on.

The GOP had their time, that time has passed. Its time to move on.

109

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:18:25pm

re: #86 scienceisreal

Myself and several of my coworkers actually spent the morning talking to various right wing commentators about how to correctly interpret these poll numbers. The statements I've heard from them make it obvious they have no understanding of statistics (I just spent an hour trying to explain the difference in individual and household level measures to some people at Commentary Magazine, with no success).

Fascinating. What do you do exactly?

Also, the inability of wingnuts to do basic mathematics is a common point I make. When I got bored with them here (or at least when there used to be more of them) and they would claim that something was wrong with a scientific analysis, I would humiliate them by asking them to do basic math problems. When they failed, I would point out that they had no basis at all to comment on science matters which required vastly more sophisticated mathematics to critique in a meaningful way.

Poor Douchebagua and Gary Cooper are still hurting from that...

110

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:18:55pm

re: #97 Gus 802

I know. I based that joke on reality. This is a line we've been hearing since the Tea Party uprising in congress. Randian, Paulian, big "L" libertarianism. The "free market" can solve everything according to these folks.

I'm still waiting for 'The Magic Hand of the Free Market^®' to come crashing down out of the sky and flatten Home Depot.

Their lumber quality sucks.

111

dmon Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:19:15pm

The thought of a school teacher being a union "thug"..... is laughable

112

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:19:21pm

re: #107 Decatur Deb

Boolean Brotherhood.

Amalgamated Brotherhood of Intertoob Workers

ABIW

113

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:19:35pm

re: #106 Dustoff848

Although unions had their time, that time has passed. Its time to move on.

Why has that time passed, and what does it mean to 'move on'?

114

Targetpractice Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:19:55pm

re: #106 Dustoff848

Although unions had their time, that time has passed. Its time to move on.

Their time has passed? The unions are still out there today, acting as a counterweight to corporations and politicians who would gladly drag things back to the 19th century, if only because they'd make a few dollars more. They give a voice to the people that men like the Koch Brothers or Scott Walker would gladly stomp all over in the pursuit of the Almighty Dollar.

115

Ming Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:20:11pm

I'm no fan of many labor unions. If the unions were stronger, corporations (and jobs) would leave the USA in droves. Unfortunately, corporate power is to amazingly strong these days, that the unions are one of the few counterweights to complete corporate domination. I'd be happy if Governor Walker failed in his attempt to completely squash the public-sector unions. But let's not forget that a powerful, re-invigorated labor movement could really do a lot of damage: workers who have to give union dues in their paychecks (which then go to Democratic candidates), union members who make $40 an hour while many unemployed people would be happy with a $12 / hour job, violence upon anyone who walks across a picket line. Frankly, neither the unions nor the corporations deserve much enthusiasm.

116

Simply Sarah Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:20:19pm

re: #86 scienceisreal

Myself and several of my coworkers actually spent the morning talking to various right wing commentators about how to correctly interpret these poll numbers. The statements I've heard from them make it obvious they have no understanding of statistics (I just spent an hour trying to explain the difference in individual and household level measures to some people at Commentary Magazine, with no success).

I'd give a bit of a pass on the "not understanding statistics" part. That just puts them in with the vast majority of the population (Which is absolutely terrifying).

117

albusteve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:20:26pm

re: #108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The GOP had their time, that time has passed. Its time to move on.

they have...heavenly pursuit of social engineering has taken the place of governing

118

Vicious Babushka Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:20:39pm

re: #110 b_sharp

I'm still waiting for 'The Magic Hand of the Free Market^® to come crashing down out of the sky and flatten Home Depot.

Their lumber quality sucks.

And then flatten Wally World^® while they're at it.

119

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:20:49pm

re: #106 Dustoff848

Although unions had their time, that time has passed. Its time to move on.

Moving on or moving forward? Revanchism is not moving forward it's moving backwards.

120

Varek Raith Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:21:09pm

Incoming!

121

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:21:09pm

re: #102 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Adeptus Mechanicus.

Genus/species names need to be italicized like so: Adeptus mechanicus.

122

CuriousLurker Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:21:29pm

OT Drive-by: Some 70 Saudi intellectuals call for reforms in the kingdom

123

engineer cat Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:22:37pm

re: #112 Gus 802

Amalgamated Brotherhood of Intertoob Workers

ABIW

//

bitpushers anonymous

124

scienceisreal Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:22:40pm

re: #109 LudwigVanQuixote

I teach statistics at a university. It's hard enough to get college students to understand variance, probability, and independence, explaining it to anti-science wingnuts is virtually impossible. Yet, they still come here for advice, even though they spend the rest of their time telling people we are a bunch of useless elitists.

125

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:22:54pm

re: #106 Dustoff848

Although unions had their time, that time has passed. Its time to move on.

Trust in the corporations, they are more honest and care more for the plight of the common man than anybody else, including those communist, socialist, America hating unions.

126

webevintage Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:23:03pm

re: #9 dmon

I haven't worn anything that says firefighter outside the house unless I'm on duty, in weeks... I told my wife that at 50 yrs old, I've never stolen a nickle form anyone in my life... and I hate being told I've stolen wages and benefits from the taxpayer.

Fuck that.
Be proud of what you are...you save people...you put yourself in harms way for the rest of us pussies who are too afraid to run into a burning building.
What kind of person runs into a burning building?
A hero type person that's who.
and you and policemen and teachers have never been paid enough for what you do.

127

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:23:14pm

re: #115 Ming

I'm no fan of many labor unions. If the unions were stronger, corporations (and jobs) would leave the USA in droves. Unfortunately, corporate power is to amazingly strong these days, that the unions are one of the few counterweights to complete corporate domination. I'd be happy if Governor Walker failed in his attempt to completely squash the public-sector unions. But let's not forget that a powerful, re-invigorated labor movement could really do a lot of damage: workers who have to give union dues in their paychecks (which then go to Democratic candidates), union members who make $40 an hour while many unemployed people would be happy with a $12 / hour job, violence upon anyone who walks across a picket line. Frankly, neither the unions nor the corporations deserve much enthusiasm.

You're kidding right? Moving manufacturing to "another country"? What country would that be. How can we look at these moves with a straight face when those very same countries consider many 3rd world countries non-cost-beneficial because they really seek to pay the lowest wages as possible You know why they moved from Mexico to China? Because Chinese labor is far cheaper.

128

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:23:30pm

re: #99 Big Steve

but clearly not an overused word

No not at all. It should be used more and more. People ought to call things what they are. Call it my scientific training. We don't use a lot of synonyms in science. We have very specific words to describe very specific things.

We don't for instance use "speed up", "get faster" , "go more quickly" "put the pedal to the metal" etc... we say accelerate.

We say that because acceleration completely describes the phenomena and it does not leave room for wiggle or interpretation.

The Republicans are plutocrats at the top and theocratic populists at the base. At some point, there will be a plutocrat, theocrat civil war in the GOP to see who ends up in charge.

We should use the words that fit.

129

Kronocide Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:24:02pm

The President's Speech.

Who knew Sir Mike Tyson had such chops?

130

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:24:14pm

re: #109 LudwigVanQuixote

Fascinating. What do you do exactly?

Also, the inability of wingnuts to do basic mathematics is a common point I make. When I got bored with them here (or at least when there used to be more of them) and they would claim that something was wrong with a scientific analysis, I would humiliate them by asking them to do basic math problems. When they failed, I would point out that they had no basis at all to comment on science matters which required vastly more sophisticated mathematics to critique in a meaningful way.

BINGO!

And I forgot my dabber at home.

131

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:24:53pm

So what do we do tell the American worker to work for Chinese labor salaries? And then those corporations "will come back"? This is ridiculous. They don't even want to pay what the "illegal immigrants" demand in the USA which is already well below truly livable wages.

132

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:26:42pm

re: #115 Ming

I'm no fan of many labor unions. If the unions were stronger, corporations (and jobs) would leave the USA in droves. Unfortunately, corporate power is to amazingly strong these days, that the unions are one of the few counterweights to complete corporate domination. I'd be happy if Governor Walker failed in his attempt to completely squash the public-sector unions. But let's not forget that a powerful, re-invigorated labor movement could really do a lot of damage: workers who have to give union dues in their paychecks (which then go to Democratic candidates), union members who make $40 an hour while many unemployed people would be happy with a $12 / hour job, violence upon anyone who walks across a picket line. Frankly, neither the unions nor the corporations deserve much enthusiasm.

Union members are usually well trained, and in some cases highly educated. Their knowledge is worth more than minimum or starting wages.

133

dmon Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:27:22pm

Companies moved jobs because we entered into "free trade" agreements, these agreements were pushed by the corporations....... it allowed them to close the factory here, move production there, and re-import the product, tax free to be sold at the same price.

134

Targetpractice Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:27:24pm

re: #113 SanFranciscoZionist

Why has that time passed, and what does it mean to 'move on'?

I've heard this line time and time again, was about to mock it myself before the n00b brought it up. The argument is always "Well, everything that the unions fought for is now protected by law at every level, so the unions are obsolete." Thing is, none of those laws are permanent, all it takes is a government with the numbers and initiative to tear them down and turn back the clock. Just find the right pitch and the people will gladly support returning themselves to slavery, chains and all.

135

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:27:33pm

re: #115 Ming

But let's not forget that a powerful, re-invigorated labor movement could really do a lot of damage: workers who have to give union dues in their paychecks (which then go to Democratic candidates), union members who make $40 an hour while many unemployed people would be happy with a $12 / hour job, violence upon anyone who walks across a picket line. Frankly, neither the unions nor the corporations deserve much enthusiasm.

1. The average union member spends about forty bucks a month in union dues, which go to give political kick to the protection of union workers.

2. Why should union members not be making good wages? This is the argument I don't understand at all. There are people out there making a hell of a lot more than forty bucks an hour, and if they're not union members, no one seems to feel that they should graciously agree to give up their compensation and their ability to negotiate for more because people are out of work.

3. Violence is unacceptable, and it's against the law. Period.

136

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:28:49pm

re: #116 Simply Sarah

I'd give a bit of a pass on the "not understanding statistics" part. That just puts them in with the vast majority of the population (Which is absolutely terrifying).

I know nothing.

137

Big Steve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:29:08pm

re: #113 SanFranciscoZionist

Why has that time passed, and what does it mean to 'move on'?

Institutions do serve their purpose and either get discarded openly or fall into disuse. While we have been joking about it.....a good example is guilds. They started as a way to protect technology and then were no longer needed. While everyone is entitled to an opinion, I actually was the site manager for a large chemical plant that was unionized and participated in multiple contract negotiations. As the so called "plutocrat" in those situations I can tell you that safety culture is so ingrained corporately that unions are no longer necessary to enforce it. That is not to say that they didn't have a role historically that wasn't significant in that realm but with OSHA laws and such, unions no longer are the driver. The other way to tell if time has passed them is that nearly all Unions have negotiated into their contracts that the companies will automatically deduct union dues. This is totally to save their asses because if paying your union dues was voluntary, we would probably really see what their support was among the rank and file.

138

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:29:12pm

Base salaries at Hon Hai’s Shenzhen factories will rise to 2,000 yuan ($293) a month

How the hell are American workers going to compete with that? You can come up with all kinds of excuses about the EPA, OSHA, EOE, and other government agencies and even if you completely eliminated all Federal regulations you'd never be able to pay American labor $293 a month.

139

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:29:36pm

re: #127 Gus 802

You're kidding right? Moving manufacturing to "another country"? What country would that be. How can we look at these moves with a straight face when those very same countries consider many 3rd world countries non-cost-beneficial because they really seek to pay the lowest wages as possible You know why they moved from Mexico to China? Because Chinese labor is far cheaper.

I'm sure that if American workers were willing to work in unregulated industries for pennies an hour, chained to their machines, manufacturing would flood back into the United States.

Is it worth it?

140

Targetpractice Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:30:39pm

re: #131 Gus 802

So what do we do tell the American worker to work for Chinese labor salaries? And then those corporations "will come back"? This is ridiculous. They don't even want to pay what the "illegal immigrants" demand in the USA which is already well below truly livable wages.

It's not just the wages, but regulations as well. Right now, they just buy off inspectors, pump money into the agencies themselves, and then express "shock" when their actions catch up to them. What they'd prefer is simply to muzzle those agencies, if not put them down for good. They're working on the EPA now, but you watch, it won't stop there.

141

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:30:49pm

re: #132 b_sharp

Union members are usually well trained, and in some cases highly educated. Their knowledge is worth more than minimum or starting wages.

They also, in the case of cops, firefighters, and prison guards, RISK THEIR LIVES.

142

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:31:07pm

re: #124 scienceisreal

I teach statistics at a university. It's hard enough to get college students to understand variance, probability, and independence, explaining it to anti-science wingnuts is virtually impossible. Yet, they still come here for advice, even though they spend the rest of their time telling people we are a bunch of useless elitists.

Damn elitists. What the hell do they know?

My gut tells me everything I need to know about this world.

Excuse me, I see a tree I can swing from.

143

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:31:16pm

re: #139 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sure that if American workers were willing to work in unregulated industries for pennies an hour, chained to their machines, manufacturing would flood back into the United States.

Is it worth it?

That's what it would take to "compete" with China. Bring back the slums; the ghettos; cholera; tuberculosis; child labor; toxic condition; poverty; etc. But hey, they'd have a job making $293 a month!

144

dmon Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:31:20pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

"workers who have to give union dues in their paychecks"

Evidenced by the 100000 in Madison fighting for the right to pay union dues, your arguement falls flat on its face

145

Decatur Deb Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:31:46pm

re: #137 Big Steve

Institutions do serve their purpose and either get discarded openly or fall into disuse. While we have been joking about it...a good example is guilds. They started as a way to protect technology and then were no longer needed. While everyone is entitled to an opinion, I actually was the site manager for a large chemical plant that was unionized and participated in multiple contract negotiations. As the so called "plutocrat" in those situations I can tell you that safety culture is so ingrained corporately that unions are no longer necessary to enforce it. That is not to say that they didn't have a role historically that wasn't significant in that realm but with OSHA laws and such, unions no longer are the driver. The other way to tell if time has passed them is that nearly all Unions have negotiated into their contracts that the companies will automatically deduct union dues. This is totally to save their asses because if paying your union dues was voluntary, we would probably really see what their support was among the rank and file.

Trust me, as a site manager you were not the 'Plutocrat'. The correct labor term, IIRC, is 'stooge'.

146

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:31:57pm

re: #124 scienceisreal

I teach statistics at a university. It's hard enough to get college students to understand variance, probability, and independence, explaining it to anti-science wingnuts is virtually impossible. Yet, they still come here for advice, even though they spend the rest of their time telling people we are a bunch of useless elitists.

I feel your pain. Please believe I feel your pain.

I enjoyed it though when my department got the wrong flavor of wing nut.

We once got several very concerned and very serious folks to come and talk to us about the "science" of intelligent design. They happened to wander into my office and some of my friends and colleagues were there.

First, we explained that this was the physics building and they really wanted to bother the biologists.

Well they wanted to confront us physics folks about this anyway...

I tried very hard to explain that the probability of a DNA molecule arising randomly from all possible combinations is indeed staggeringly small. Because of that, the non-random selective processes of evolution are actually mathematically supported.

In one ear and out the other of course. I was in my public persona as the kindly scientist also - not using the liberating vent that I get to take here - I could not have been more polite or patient with them.

My colleague tried to explain the basic idea that a probability was the number of shots you have to hit divided by the number of things you could hit.

In one ear and out the other.

It is not just that these folks are brainwashed. It is that they really are just dumb.

147

Varek Raith Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:33:29pm

re: #138 Gus 802

Base salaries at Hon Hai’s Shenzhen factories will rise to 2,000 yuan ($293) a month

How the hell are American workers going to compete with that? You can come up with all kinds of excuses about the EPA, OSHA, EOE, and other government agencies and even if you completely eliminated all Federal regulations you'd never be able to pay American labor $293 a month.

*Crickets*

148

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:33:34pm

re: #140 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It's not just the wages, but regulations as well. Right now, they just buy off inspectors, pump money into the agencies themselves, and then express "shock" when their actions catch up to them. What they'd prefer is simply to muzzle those agencies, if not put them down for good. They're working on the EPA now, but you watch, it won't stop there.

Right. And like I said later even if the USA got rid of regulations it still wouldn't bring our wages down to Chinese levels. Corporations that move to China don't want workers they want slaves.

149

scienceisreal Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:33:39pm

re: #142 b_sharp

Damn elitists. What the hell do they know?

My gut tells me everything I need to know about this world.

Excuse me, I see a tree I can swing from.

That's pretty much the reaction I get when I tell people about our analysis of the stimulus package, and the effectiveness of tax cuts.

150

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:34:20pm

re: #127 Gus 802

You're kidding right? Moving manufacturing to "another country"? What country would that be. How can we look at these moves with a straight face when those very same countries consider many 3rd world countries non-cost-beneficial because they really seek to pay the lowest wages as possible You know why they moved from Mexico to China? Because Chinese labor is far cheaper.

$12/hour is far more than the avg Chinese labourer gets paid. If all that is keeping labour from moving out of NA are low wages, we better bring them down to $12/week.

151

Targetpractice Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:34:25pm

re: #138 Gus 802

Base salaries at Hon Hai’s Shenzhen factories will rise to 2,000 yuan ($293) a month

How the hell are American workers going to compete with that? You can come up with all kinds of excuses about the EPA, OSHA, EOE, and other government agencies and even if you completely eliminated all Federal regulations you'd never be able to pay American labor $293 a month.

Sure you could. Hell, how often do you hear the argument "Things cost so much because of unions/regulations/taxes/etc"? It's the backbone of the "free market" BS, that the reason things cost so much these days is because so much "unnecessary" stuff is factored into the cost. If all of it went away, why, we'd be living in a virtual nirvana. After all, these big corporations wouldn't do anything to harm their workers or customers...right?

152

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:35:36pm

re: #137 Big Steve

Institutions do serve their purpose and either get discarded openly or fall into disuse. While we have been joking about it...a good example is guilds. They started as a way to protect technology and then were no longer needed. While everyone is entitled to an opinion, I actually was the site manager for a large chemical plant that was unionized and participated in multiple contract negotiations. As the so called "plutocrat" in those situations I can tell you that safety culture is so ingrained corporately that unions are no longer necessary to enforce it. That is not to say that they didn't have a role historically that wasn't significant in that realm but with OSHA laws and such, unions no longer are the driver. The other way to tell if time has passed them is that nearly all Unions have negotiated into their contracts that the companies will automatically deduct union dues. This is totally to save their asses because if paying your union dues was voluntary, we would probably really see what their support was among the rank and file.

I'm glad that your company has a strong safety culture, but there are many that don't, or wouldn't, if people didn't stay on their case. As a teacher, I have to say that I have little doubt of how ugly working conditions would get if the union did not have some influence.

(Also, last time I was unionized, paying your dues was voluntary.)

I think those people out in the streets in Madison are showing what the support is like among the rank and file.

153

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:36:09pm

re: #140 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It's not just the wages, but regulations as well. Right now, they just buy off inspectors, pump money into the agencies themselves, and then express "shock" when their actions catch up to them. What they'd prefer is simply to muzzle those agencies, if not put them down for good. They're working on the EPA now, but you watch, it won't stop there.

Yeah. The anti-union behavior goes hand in hand with crying over how overregulated they are.

154

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:36:12pm

re: #128 LudwigVanQuixote

No not at all. It should be used more and more. People ought to call things what they are. Call it my scientific training. We don't use a lot of synonyms in science. We have very specific words to describe very specific things.

We don't for instance use "speed up", "get faster" , "go more quickly" "put the pedal to the metal" etc... we say accelerate.

We say that because acceleration completely describes the phenomena and it does not leave room for wiggle or interpretation.

The Republicans are plutocrats at the top and theocratic populists at the base. At some point, there will be a plutocrat, theocrat civil war in the GOP to see who ends up in charge.

We should use the words that fit.

Here's hoping the forces aligned against reality suffer some catastrophic negative acceleration real soon.

155

Big Steve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:36:23pm

re: #145 Decatur Deb

Well I do have a rather "Curly" stooge hair cut. Stooge would have been a kind word.....most of what I was called started with F.... Never minded that but I did mind that eldest son of Big Steve got attacked by in middle school by kids whose father's were on the picket line during a strike. But little Big Steve was a tough dude back then (and a future all-american Lacrosse player I might add) and enjoyed the encounter.

156

Varek Raith Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:36:44pm

re: #137 Big Steve

Yep, BP sure didn't skirt the safety laws in pursuit of money.
Oh, wait...
They did!

157

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:37:43pm

re: #149 scienceisreal

That's pretty much the reaction I get when I tell people about our analysis of the stimulus package, and the effectiveness of tax cuts.

Numbers mean nothing to the innumerate. To them it is all a question of beliefs. Beliefs are things that one can pick and choose from.

Do you believe in evolution? Do you believe in AGW? Do you believe the sun orbits the earth?

Science is about being convinced by the data and the analysis.

Mathematics is about being able to follow the mathematics. There is no belief involved in either.

However, once you create something that requires actual thought, knowledge and intellectual discipline to engage in, you have cut the rubes out of the discussion.

They believe that their half baked, ignorant, stupid ideas matter. in our broken democracy they do. Perhaps G-d will change the order of the universe to suit their votes?

158

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:37:55pm

re: #134 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I've heard this line time and time again, was about to mock it myself before the n00b brought it up. The argument is always "Well, everything that the unions fought for is now protected by law at every level, so the unions are obsolete." Thing is, none of those laws are permanent, all it takes is a government with the numbers and initiative to tear them down and turn back the clock. Just find the right pitch and the people will gladly support returning themselves to slavery, chains and all.

Isn't that exactly what they are trying to do in Wisconsin?

159

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:38:10pm

re: #154 b_sharp

Here's hoping the forces aligned against reality suffer some catastrophic negative acceleration real soon.

Amen!

160

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:38:15pm

re: #150 b_sharp

$12/hour is far more than the avg Chinese labourer gets paid. If all that is keeping labour from moving out of NA are low wages, we better bring them down to $12/week.

Exactly. Chinese wages are at the same level we were paying factory workers in the USA in the 1950s. Wait. Before that if you adjust for inflation. Possibly the 30s and 40s.

161

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:39:06pm

re: #160 Gus 802

Exactly. Chinese wages are at the same level we were paying factory workers in the USA in the 1950s. Wait. Before that if you adjust for inflation. Possibly the 30s and 40s.

And pre EPA and OSHA wages if you know what I mean.

162

moderatelyradicalliberal Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:40:03pm

A Modern Parable

A unionized public employee, a teabagger, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, then looks at the teabagger and says “Watch out for that union guy—he wants a piece of your cookie!”

[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]

163

Big Steve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:40:23pm

re: #156 Varek Raith

Yep, BP sure didn't skirt the safety laws in pursuit of money.
Oh, wait...
They did!

who said ANYTHING about companies not behaving badly.....I certainly didn't. I just said that the hammer is no longer the unions. Do you see BP paying big fines to the union.....fuck no.....they are paying fines to the government.

164

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:40:27pm

The salaries of factory workers in China are still low compared to those in the United States and Europe: the hourly wage in southern China is only about 75 cents an hour

165

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:40:53pm

re: #144 dmon

"workers who have to give union dues in their paychecks"

Evidenced by the 100000 in Madison fighting for the right to pay union dues, your arguement falls flat on its face

You are yelling at the wrong person, that quote is from Ming.

166

scienceisreal Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:41:30pm

re: #146 LudwigVanQuixote

I tried very hard to explain that the probability of a DNA molecule arising randomly from all possible combinations is indeed staggeringly small. Because of that, the non-random selective processes of evolution are actually mathematically supported.

Oh yeah, I had that exactly conversation with someone about a month ago. Of course, explaining to them that I'm a social and economic statistician made no difference, they did everything they could to get me on their side. Trying to explain simple conditional probability, I got the response, "I don't really know anything about that, I just know it's unlikely."

167

Decatur Deb Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:43:03pm

re: #155 Big Steve

Well I do have a rather "Curly" stooge hair cut. Stooge would have been a kind word...most of what I was called started with F... Never minded that but I did mind that eldest son of Big Steve got attacked by in middle school by kids whose father's were on the picket line during a strike. But little Big Steve was a tough dude back then (and a future all-american Lacrosse player I might add) and enjoyed the encounter.

Sorry that the kids got involved, but labor strife is serious shit. It sounds like you had the OCAW, one of the best unions in the country. OSHA vertical standards for your industry are largely based on their work.

168

Ben G. Hazi Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:43:32pm

re: #106 Dustoff848

Oh look, a sleeper...

/Mr. 2nd Post in 3 Years...pfffft

169

moderatelyradicalliberal Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:43:41pm

re: #146 LudwigVanQuixote

I feel your pain. Please believe I feel your pain.

I enjoyed it though when my department got the wrong flavor of wing nut.

We once got several very concerned and very serious folks to come and talk to us about the "science" of intelligent design. They happened to wander into my office and some of my friends and colleagues were there.

First, we explained that this was the physics building and they really wanted to bother the biologists.

Well they wanted to confront us physics folks about this anyway...

I tried very hard to explain that the probability of a DNA molecule arising randomly from all possible combinations is indeed staggeringly small. Because of that, the non-random selective processes of evolution are actually mathematically supported.

In one ear and out the other of course. I was in my public persona as the kindly scientist also - not using the liberating vent that I get to take here - I could not have been more polite or patient with them.

My colleague tried to explain the basic idea that a probability was the number of shots you have to hit divided by the number of things you could hit.

In one ear and out the other.

It is not just that these folks are brainwashed. It is that they really are just dumb.

For those who believe no evidence is necessary and for those who do not believe no evidence exists.

I don't know who the hell said that, but it's true.

170

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:43:53pm

re: #151 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Sure you could. Hell, how often do you hear the argument "Things cost so much because of unions/regulations/taxes/etc"? It's the backbone of the "free market" BS, that the reason things cost so much these days is because so much "unnecessary" stuff is factored into the cost. If all of it went away, why, we'd be living in a virtual nirvana. After all, these big corporations wouldn't do anything to harm their workers or customers...right?

Don't companies price goods to make a profit?

171

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:45:32pm

re: #164 Gus 802

The salaries of factory workers in China are still low compared to those in the United States and Europe: the hourly wage in southern China is only about 75 cents an hour

Selected Commercial Wage Rates in the North East, 1940

Todd shipyards of Robbins and Tietjen, in Brooklyn and Hoboken,

42 hours, converted:
Laborers .62 .58 .53
First-class app. .72
Helpers .68 .63 .58
Chipper & Caulker .98 .89 .77
Electricians .98 .81 .77
Machinists 1.10 .98 .77
Patternmaker 1.05
Pipefitter .98 .95 .77
Sheetmetal 1.05 .98 .85
Shipfitter 1.12 .98 .77
Electric welders .98 .86

So they're basically paying Chinese factory workers at pre-inflation wages of first class apprentice in 1940. But that's not accurate. 75 cents USD equals $11.80.

172

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:46:31pm

re: #171 Gus 802

Selected Commercial Wage Rates in the North East, 1940

So they're basically paying Chinese factory workers at pre-inflation wages of first class apprentice in 1940. But that's not accurate. 75 cents USD equals $11.80.

Clarify...

0.75 USD in 1940 = 11.80 USD in 2011

173

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:46:59pm

re: #160 Gus 802

Exactly. Chinese wages are at the same level we were paying factory workers in the USA in the 1950s. Wait. Before that if you adjust for inflation. Possibly the 30s and 40s.

Hold on a second here. Why are we discussing unions, when it's Gore's fault unemployment is so high?

I'm confused.

174

Big Steve Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:48:39pm

re: #167 Decatur Deb

Sorry that the kids got involved, but labor strife is serious shit. It sounds like you had the OCAW, one of the best unions in the country. OSHA vertical standards for your industry are largely based on their work.

They were OCAW.....then they became PACE.....and now they are Steelworkers. And I always respected their leadership and actually the feeling was mutual. And again, I am acknowledging their historical role in safety in the industry. But they are no longer a driver.

175

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:49:47pm

Here we go. Not sure how accurate this is.

0.75 USD/2011 = 0.05 USD/1940

According to this calculator.

176

Gus Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:51:44pm

So when the dreaded EPA was established in 1970 they would have had to been paying their workers 13 cents an hour in 1970 in order to equal the 75 cents an hour they're currently paying for in China.

See the logic here?

177

prairiefire Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:51:45pm

Bob Woodward criticizes Rumsfeld's book:[Link: ricks.foreignpolicy.com...]

178

dmon Tue, Mar 1, 2011 12:56:47pm

re: #165 b_sharp

Sorry thought id responded to Ming.......

My apologies

179

William Barnett-Lewis Tue, Mar 1, 2011 1:03:27pm

re: #144 dmon

"workers who have to give union dues in their paychecks"

Evidenced by the 100000 in Madison fighting for the right to pay union dues, your arguement falls flat on its face

QFT

180

andres Tue, Mar 1, 2011 1:05:48pm

re: #175 Gus 802

Here we go. Not sure how accurate this is.

0.75 USD/2011 = 0.05 USD/1940

According to this calculator.

If I remember correctly from the engineering economic analysis class[1], no it's not accurate, but it should be close enough for comparison purposes because inflation can't be "explained" in a formula. Also, inflation varies depending on the market. But developing a formula to take into account all these variables is both difficult and useless, since typically we are looking for 'in the ballpark' figures.

--
[1] This was almost 7 years ago.[2]
[2] Geez, how time creeps up on us.

181

Fozzie Bear Tue, Mar 1, 2011 1:05:52pm

A repost from the other day, because it's relevant:

A unionized public employee, a member of the Tea Party, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table there is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across, takes 11 cookies, looks at the Tea Partier, and says, "Look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie."

(shamelessly stolen from a friend's FB status.)

I love this joke, because it really cuts to the heart of the issue.

182

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 1:06:22pm

re: #178 dmon

Sorry thought id responded to Ming...

My apologies

Although I can't speak for SFZ, I will anyway - no worries, shit happens.

183

b_Snark Tue, Mar 1, 2011 1:07:02pm

re: #181 Fozzie Bear

A repost from the other day, because it's relevant:

A unionized public employee, a member of the Tea Party, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table there is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across, takes 11 cookies, looks at the Tea Partier, and says, "Look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie."

(shamelessly stolen from a friend's FB status.)

I love this joke, because it really cuts to the heart of the issue.

And it has cookies.

184

moderatelyradicalliberal Tue, Mar 1, 2011 1:12:14pm

re: #181 Fozzie Bear

A repost from the other day, because it's relevant:

A unionized public employee, a member of the Tea Party, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table there is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across, takes 11 cookies, looks at the Tea Partier, and says, "Look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie."

(shamelessly stolen from a friend's FB status.)

I love this joke, because it really cuts to the heart of the issue.

I already beat you to it. See above!

185

CuriousLurker Tue, Mar 1, 2011 5:15:04pm

re: #9 dmon

this is good news news to me. I am a union firefighter here in Ohio, the bill the legislature is pushing thru here is as bad or worse than Wisconsin.

My wife can tell this has me tied in knots, the future has suddenly become very scary.

Much worse than the financial aspect, is the things i see and hear, the folks calling us freeloaders, bums, thugs, or burdens on society.

I haven't worn anything that says firefighter outside the house unless I'm on duty, in weeks... I told my wife that at 50 yrs old, I've never stolen a nickle form anyone in my life... and I hate being told I've stolen wages and benefits from the taxpayer.

Excuse me, but SCREW the people who think like that. I felt the same way after 9/11 and even wondered if I should stop wearing hijab. Sure, I ran into a few assholes who called me names, but this is MY country too and I'm not a freaking terrorist that needs to hide or hang my head in shame, and you firefighters sure as hell are NOT freeloaders, bums, thugs, or burdens on society that need to hang your heads in shame.

The people who need to be ashamed are the politicians and other pandering jackasses who aren't likely to risk an inch of the pampered flesh on their backsides for anything but their own selfish gain. Have faith that (most of) your fellow Americans have pretty good bullshit detectors and know damned well that just because someone calls you bad things doesn't mean you're really like that.

For those few assholes who believe the BS, if they get in your face, don't even blink—just snarl right back at them that maybe the next time their house catches on fire or one of their loved ones needs to be cut out of a mangled car after an accident, they should try calling one of the politicians doing all the squawking and see how quickly they respond. That should make them STFU.

GAWD this crap makes me sooooo angry!

186

mph Tue, Mar 1, 2011 6:22:02pm

[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

How do you square these figures with the results of last November’s elections, in which anti-tax, anti-deficit, anti-public-union forces swept to historic victories in federal and state elections across the country? Well, you can’t, of course. The Times doesn’t even ask this blindingly obvious question, let alone try to answer it.

But if you read down to the seventh paragraph of the story, which is on page 17, not page 1, an answer emerges:

The nationwide telephone poll was conducted Feb. 24-27 with 984 adults and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus three percentage points for all adults. Of those surveyed, 20 percent said there was a union member in their household, and 25 percent said there was a public employee in their household.

Although less than 12 percent of the workforce is unionized today, 20 percent of the households in the survey had a union member. Although government workers are 17 percent of the workforce, 25 percent of the households surveyed had one living there. In other words, the sample was wildly skewed toward the very people most likely to give the answers the Times was hoping to hear.

187

Obdicut Wed, Mar 2, 2011 4:01:26am

re: #186 mph

How do you square these figures with the results of last November’s elections, in which anti-tax, anti-deficit, anti-public-union forces swept to historic victories in federal and state elections across the country?

First of all, being anti-tax and anti-deficit are contradictory positions.

Second of all, to characterize the last elections solely on being driven by taxes, deficits, and public unions ignores all social issues and other issues.

Although less than 12 percent of the workforce is unionized today, 20 percent of the households in the survey had a union member

Which makes perfect mathematical sense, since a household can have more than one working member.

Spy Mode Auto

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