Top Science Organizations Call for Presidential Science Debate

The ball’s in Mitt Romney’s court
Science • Views: 25,080

A group of scientific and engineering organizations is trying to get the presidential candidates to commit to a debate on science in America: Quest for Science Debate Continues.

As CJR points out, in the last election both John McCain and Barack Obama gave fairly detailed written responses. I have no doubt Obama would gladly participate again, but what are the odds that Mitt Romney will commit to something like this, in the anti-science era of the religious right and the Tea Party?

On Thursday, 15 top science and engineering organizations, from the American Organization for the Advancement of Science to the Union of Concerned Scientists, released a list of 14 questions that they would like the presidential candidates to answer, preferably in a televised debate.

The group was organized by the nonprofit science advocacy organization ScienceDebate.org, which launched during the 2008 race in order to press Obama and his then challenger into a parley about scientific matters of national significance. Although over 38,000 scientists, politicians, journalists, and other supporters signed the call, the debate didn’t happen, but Obama and US Sen. John McCain did provide written responses, with a useful amount of detail, to that year’s list of 14 questions.

This year’s list—again crafted from suggestions from thousands of scientists, engineers, and others—hasn’t changed much. Questions about: the role of science and technology in innovation and the economy, climate change, energy, education, pandemics and biodiversity, ocean health, water, space, public health, and federal support for basic research remain basically the same as the last go-round. Questions about critical natural resources, the Internet, and food safety replaced ones about national security, genetics research, and stem cells. And a question about scientific integrity was reworked into a question about science in public policy.

Here’s the proposed question about climate change:

2. Climate Change. The Earth’s climate is changing and there is concern about the potentially adverse effects of these changes on life on the planet. What is your position on cap-and-trade, carbon taxes, and other policies proposed to address global climate change—and what steps can we take to improve our ability to tackle challenges like climate change that cross national boundaries?

I see a problem right there in the first sentence for Romney; as in many of his formerly moderate positions, he’s flipped toward the far right position on climate change. In a recent speech, Romney would not concede that humans are causing climate change, embracing the denialism rampant in today’s GOP:

“My view is that we don’t know what’s causing climate change on this planet. And the idea of spending trillions and trillions of dollars to try to reduce CO2 emissions is not the right course for us. My view with regards to energy policy is pretty straightforward. I want us to become energy secure and independent of the oil cartels. And that means let’s aggressively develop our oil, our gas, our coal, our nuclear power.”

I hope Mitt Romney does accept the challenge and debate Obama on science issues. It would be very interesting to see how he spins his answers to avoid angering the loonies in his party.

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76 comments
1 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:32:57pm

Not only will never happen but no one will even notice that it didn't happen because the news is just as science illiterate as the GOP.

2 Kragar  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:34:24pm

SCIENCE IS THE DEVIL!
/

3 jaunte  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:46:35pm

Romney's team is going to tell him to run as far and as fast as he can away from this proposal, until he runs out the clock.

4 brennant  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:47:52pm

My guess is he will never respond.

5 freetoken  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:48:30pm

Creationism.

Yes, it is an indicator (though not exclusively so) of what the two major parties are transforming themselves into.

Creationism is widely believed in America and is not constrained to the GOP, but in recent years the nature of the GOP has been to unify itself around the social agenda of creationists.

The recent Aurora shootings have brought to the surface a plethora of laments from the religious, about the cause of violence in America being a result of "godlessness".

On any given day in the US some media outlet will be airing the laments of creationists over the evils of evolution.

In America today our society is wrestling with loosening itself from an old, and I contend outdated, worldview that just can't operate in an international arena where Christian nationalism holds no special significance, and where competitiveness for the future depends upon scientific and technical prowess to extract the most from our resources while trying to minimize the negative side effects.

I really wish President Obama would press more on this, though his own party is somewhat hamstrung by the number of creationists it still holds. I don't expect Obama to ever go on an anti-religion campaign, nor would it be particularly appropriate for him to do so while in office. Yet it's such a touchstone of where we are at as a country, this seemingly intransigent stance of many Americans to reject modern science.

6 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:50:31pm

A debate based around reasonable logical questions having to do with real world facts, what will they think of next?

7 jaunte  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:50:32pm
1. Innovation and the Economy. Science and technology have been responsible for over half of the growth of the U.S. economy since WWII, when the federal government first prioritized peacetime science mobilization. But several recent reports question America’s continued leadership in these vital areas. What policies will best ensure that America remains a world leader in innovation?

3. Research and the Future. Federally funded research has helped to produce America’s major postwar economies and to ensure our national security, but today the UK, Singapore, China, and Korea are making competitive investments in research. Given that the next Congress will face spending constraints, what priority would you give to investment in research in your upcoming budgets?

RNC slams Obama ‘You didn’t build that’ remark in conference call with business owners

8 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:50:49pm

re: #4 brennant

My guess is he will never respond.

Most of the questions are softballs
[Link: www.sciencedebate.org...]

Climate change is the only sticky issue for Mitt here. Everything else can be answered with general platitudes. They're not including evolution this time.

9 freetoken  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:51:28pm

re: #4 brennant

My guess is he will never respond.

It's hard to come up with a reason why Romney would respond - it's not like he can say anything to get more votes by answering.

10 brennant  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:52:16pm

re: #8 Killgore Trout

Most of the questions are softballs
[Link: www.sciencedebate.org...]

Climate change is the only sticky issue for Mitt here. Everything else can be answered with general platitudes. They're not including evolution this time.

It would be "beneath" him to answer.

11 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:52:19pm

re: #5 freetoken

I don't think anyone has asked Mitt Romney for his position on evolution vs. creationism for quite a while. I'd be willing to bet he'll spout some kind of variation on "intelligent design."

12 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:52:47pm

Here's a roundup of Mitt on Global Warming
Romney Record Is ‘Flexible’ on Global Warming

13 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:53:27pm

re: #11 Charles Johnson

I don't think anyone has asked Mitt Romney for his position on evolution vs. creationism for quite a while. I'd be willing to bet he'll spout some kind of variation on "intelligent design."

Or go with the standard non-answer, aka "I think we should leave it up to the states."

14 brennant  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:53:36pm

re: #11 Charles Johnson

I don't think anyone has asked Mitt Romney for his position on evolution vs. creationism for quite a while. I'd be willing to bet he'll spout some kind of variation on "intelligent design."

I wonder what the LDS would say if you answered that way?

15 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:55:27pm

re: #14 brennant

Mormon views on evolution

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) takes no official position on whether or not biological evolution has occurred, or on the validity of the modern evolutionary synthesis as a scientific theory. However, in the 20th century, the LDS Church published doctrinal statements on the origin of man and creation. In addition, individual leaders of the LDS Church have expressed a variety of opinions on evolution, many of which have affected the beliefs and perceptions of Latter-day Saints.

16 freetoken  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:57:30pm

re: #8 Killgore Trout

Most of the questions are softballs
[Link: www.sciencedebate.org...]

Climate change is the only sticky issue for Mitt here. Everything else can be answered with general platitudes. They're not including evolution this time.

Exactly.

Yet, even the most benign of answers can get Romney in hot water with the wingnuts.

For example, the question on fresh water. It would seem to be a no-brainer, right?

Wrong.

For example, the nuts are raging over this:

U.S. Forest Service Trying to Kill the Town Too Tough to Die

It's that evul Federal Gub'mint denying water to Patriotic freedom-loving Americans.

There's no issue too benign for it not to be turned as a weapon against Romney, should he at all breach the doctrine that all government is evil and should be destroyed.

17 William of Orange  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 3:57:36pm

Oh man, this is sad news. But in a way fitting to announce in a science thread...


Just announced, Sally Ride, the first female astronaut of the US of A died today at the age of 61.

18 Mattand  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:04:18pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

Or go with the standard non-answer, aka "I think we should leave it up to the states."

Here's how that would work out in a Romney presidency:

When asked about the creationism vs reality debate, Chris Christie got nasty (what a surprise) and punted it down the road to the local municipalities. This is gives the impression he's okay with public tax dollars being used to teach religious nonsense as science.

I realize not all Republicans are anti-science, but they sure do their best to promote that image.

19 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:09:48pm
20 erik_t  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:20:02pm

re: #14 brennant

I wonder what the LDS would say if you answered that way?

I shouldn't have to care what a church thinks when I ask a candidate about his positions on matters of scientific merit.

Sigh.

21 researchok  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:21:48pm

Who said it?

“....I believe in parents being able to provide children with religious instruction without interference from the state.

But I also believe our schools are there to teach worldly knowledge and science. I believe in evolution, and I believe there’s a difference between science and faith. That doesn’t make faith any less important than science. It just means they’re two different things. And I think it’s a mistake to try to cloud the teaching of science with theories that frankly don’t hold up to scientific inquiry.“

22 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:25:04pm

re: #21 researchok

Who said it?

I didn't know the answer, but Google did!

23 Mattand  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:27:31pm

re: #21 researchok

Who said it?

The amount of right wing blogs that Googling the quote takes you to, and the hand-wringing involved therein, is quite entertaining.

Personal favorite: The Daily Hatch.org, aka Halting Arkansas Liberals with Truth, aka a blog aimed at fighting the 26 AR residents who don't think Jesus rode a velociraptor.

Obama said it, btw.

24 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:28:00pm

re: #21 researchok

Who said it?

Romney back when he was running against Kennedy is my guess.

25 freetoken  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:28:08pm

An example of creationist deception at work:

Today the ICR, used a source for many lay creationists, published this:

Human DNA Variation Linked to Biblical Event Timeline

A new study reported in the journal Science has advanced our knowledge of rare DNA variation associated with gene regions in the human genome.1 By applying a demographics-based model to the data, researchers discovered that the human genome began to rapidly diversify about 5,000 years ago. Remarkably, this data coincides closely with biblical models of rapid diversification of humans after the global flood.

[...]

The authors wrote, "The maximum likelihood time for accelerated growth was 5,115 years ago." Old-earth proponents now have a new challenge: to explain why—after millions of years of hardly any genetic variation among modern humans—human genomic diversity exploded only within the last five thousand years?

[...]

First, the conclusions drawn in that last paragraph are obviously pulled out of nowhere.

Secondly, here is what the Science paper actually says:

[...]

Abundance of rare variation explained by human demographic history. The excess of rare variation across the exome is consistent with explosive human population growth (22). To investigate this further, we used an out-of-Africa (OOA) demographic model (23) to predict the expected joint distribution of allele frequencies between EA and AA samples via a diffusion
approximation (18). The OOA model, modified to account for admixture, captures prominent features of the joint frequency distribution. However, both populations contain more rare variants than predicted by this model (18) (Fig. 2), most likely because of rapid population growth in the past few thousand years that is undetectable with smaller sample sizes (fig. S9E). We revisited the demographic model from Gravel et al. (23), allowing for a reduced initial European expansion that is compensated for by accelerated growth starting after the split of European and Asian populations. Similarly, we introduced a phase of exponential growth in the African population starting at the same time. The resulting demographic model is an improved fit to the synonymous site-frequency spectrum (18) (Fig. 2B) and and strongly supports a recent, dramatic acceleration of population growth. The maximum likelihood time for accelerated growth was 5115 years ago (Fig. 2B).


The EA population growth, previously estimated at 0.38% per generation, is now modeled at the first step as 0.307% (SD of T0.003%), followed by explosive growth of 1.95% (SD T0.03%) over the past 5115 years. The growth in the AA sample during this same period is estimated to be 1.66% (SD T0.03%). The estimated standard deviations (18) are quite small, and, for data sets of this scale, it is likely that other sources of uncertainty (e.g., mutation rate or model specification) play a more important role than finite genome fluctuations. The final population sizes in this model are lower than current census sizes, and we speculate that larger
sample sizes will be necessary to fully capture the signature recent growth-rate expansion imparted on patterns of DNA sequence variation. [...]

The researches are looking at dramatic population growth - likely the result of agriculture - as evidenced in the increase in mutations available. It is no where implied that only 8 people (creationists' Noah) is at all sufficient, and it is even obviously wrong (since the population model depends on many more people than that.)

Creationists lie. Again.

26 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:30:26pm

re: #21 researchok

Who said it?

Michael Egnor.
No?
William Dembski.
No?
Philip Johnson.
No? He's dead?
Michael Behe?
No?

27 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:31:46pm
28 Mattand  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:33:57pm

re: #24 Stanley Sea

Romney back when he was running against Kennedy is my guess.

You know what? I can totally see Romney taking that position back then. The guy will say anything to get elected.

29 freetoken  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:41:04pm

It strikes me how analogous the treatment of ICR to the Science paper, and Romney's treatment of Obama's "you didn't build that" speech, are at heart.

Both are quite similar in that a few sentences are taken out of context to mean something quite different than the original author intended.

So yes, Romney is quite comfortable with the techniques of creationist propaganda.

30 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:43:30pm

creationism

it is not preordained that american society will always evolve in a forward direction

31 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:43:53pm

re: #28 Mattand

You know what? I can totally see Romney taking that position back then. The guy will say anything to get elected.

Romney Elaborates On Evolution

While governor of Massachusetts, Mr. Romney opposed the teaching of intelligent design in science classes.

“In my opinion, the science class is where to teach evolution, or if there are other scientific thoughts that need to be discussed,” he said. “If we’re going to talk about more philosophical matters, like why it was created, and was there an intelligent designer behind it, that’s for the religion class or philosophy class or social studies class.”

Be interesting to pin him down now.

32 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:45:04pm

re: #30 engineer cat

creationism

it is not preordained that american society will always evolve in a forward direction

Sorry, but we don't do multiple irony here.

33 Kragar  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:45:14pm

re: #29 freetoken

It strikes me how analogous the treatment of ICR to the Science paper, and Romney's treatment of Obama's "you didn't build that" speech, are at heart.

Both are quite similar in that a few sentences are taken out of context to mean something quite different than the original author intended.

So yes, Romney is quite comfortable with the techniques of creationist propaganda.

Speaking of "you didn't build that"...

Romney’s ‘You Didn’t Build That’ Attack Ad Stars Businessman Who Received Millions in Government Money

Romney To Olympians: ‘You Didn’t Get Here Solely On Your Own’

34 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:45:53pm

re: #32 b_sharp

Sorry, but we don't do multiple irony here.

That's a new wrinkle.

35 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:47:00pm

re: #34 wrenchwench

That's a new wrinkle.

I have nothing to say about that.

36 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:52:06pm

re: #35 b_sharp

I have nothing to say about that.

Board?

work with me here...

put some starch in your comments.

Yes, I did laundry yesterday. However, I can't remember the last time I ironed anything, let alone used starch.

37 Mattand  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:52:13pm

re: #31 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Romney Elaborates On Evolution

Be interesting to pin him down now.

Which is why we will never see Mitt Romney in a science-themed debate.

38 freetoken  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:57:35pm

It's hard slogging, to engage creationists. I do that on occasion, and it's a lot of work to make even the tiniest progress.

39 Aye Pod  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:59:06pm

re: #25 freetoken

after millions of years of hardly any genetic variation among modern humans

LOL. Modern humans have only been around for the last 250,000 years tops.

Stupid and ignorant on every level.

40 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 4:59:48pm

re: #38 freetoken

It's hard slogging, to engage creationists. I do that on occasion, and it's a lot of work to make even the tiniest progress.

Used to do it.
Caused brain damage.
Quit.

41 freetoken  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:00:56pm

re: #39 Aye Pod

Stupid and ignorant on every level.

... and deceptive.


You left that part out.

42 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:03:55pm

re: #3 jaunte

Romney's team is going to tell him to run as far and as fast as he can away from this proposal, until he runs out the clock.

Just so. This science debate proposal is a loser for Mitt Romney: Obama would have far more free reign than him, and Mitt would just get shot up. Romney should just stiff-arm the scientists.

43 Aye Pod  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:04:18pm

re: #40 b_sharp

Used to do it.
Caused brain damage.
Quit.

Most hilarious explanation I got from a creationist for the "design" of the flatfish: "Because it pleased Him to make them that way"

44 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:06:27pm

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

Just so. This science debate proposal is a loser for Mitt Romney: Obama would have far more free reign than him, and Mitt would just get shot up. Romney should just stiff-arm the scientists.

That seems to be the story of his campaign, doesn't it? Romney can't engage anybody, because he'd just do damage to his campaign.

45 Aye Pod  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:07:11pm

Internet connection dying again - later folks.

46 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:07:51pm

re: #39 Aye Pod

LOL. Modern humans have only been around for the last 250,000 years tops.

Stupid and ignorant on every level.

When your frame of reference is 6000 years, any large number looks indistinguishable from any other.

47 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:08:53pm

re: #43 Aye Pod

Most hilarious explanation I got from a creationist for the "design" of the flatfish: "Because it pleased Him to make them that way"

The one time a creationist brought it up in a conversation with me, the guy was telling me that he had argued with a mutual acquaintance that the earth was 6,000 years old WHILE THEY WERE IN THE GRAND CANYON. I knew that derp was too deep for me.

48 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:09:18pm

re: #39 Aye Pod

LOL. Modern humans have only been around for the last 250,000 years tops.

Stupid and ignorant on every level.

We're still more than 98% the same genetically as we were 2-3 million years ago if you go off the number of changes to our branch and the chimp branch since the split 6 million years ago.

Of course that's not what they meant and you are quite right, I just can't resist evolution questions.

49 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:09:40pm

re: #44 Targetpractice

That seems to be the story of his campaign, doesn't it? Romney can't engage anybody, because he'd just do damage to his campaign.

What he really needs is some way to get some of the pressure from the right off of him, but I am not sure how that could be done. For now his best bet is to spend the summer hurling attack ads and otherwise keeping relatively quiet.

50 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:10:14pm

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

What he really needs is some way to get some of the pressure from the right off of him, but I am not sure how that could be done. For now his best bet is to spend the summer hurling attack ads and otherwise keeping relatively quiet.

Hm, maybe he should leave the country for a bit....

51 erik_t  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:12:12pm

re: #43 Aye Pod

Most hilarious explanation I got from a creationist for the "design" of the flatfish: "Because it pleased Him to make them that way"

I've never understood the fundamentally uncurious. Of course, my parents' answer to my question of 'Why?' was never, ever 'Because.'

52 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:12:17pm

re: #43 Aye Pod

Most hilarious explanation I got from a creationist for the "design" of the flatfish: "Because it pleased Him to make them that way"

Pretty standard recoil isn't it, heading back to 'sort of' scripture?

I love the way they move the goal posts when you post pictures of fish with lungs and the ability to travel on land.

53 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:13:06pm

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

What he really needs is some way to get some of the pressure from the right off of him, but I am not sure how that could be done. For now his best bet is to spend the summer hurling attack ads and otherwise keeping relatively quiet.

He really has no choice in the matter, he has to keep the right as close as possible if he wants a chance at winning. Pissing them off would pretty much sink his campaign.

54 Only The Lurker Knows  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:15:58pm

re: #17 William of Orange

Oh man, this is sad news. But in a way fitting to announce in a science thread...

Just announced, Sally Ride, the first female astronaut of the US of A died today at the age of 61.

Damn. R.I.P. You did a lot to advance U.S. Women's role in space.

Fair Winds and a Following Sea.

55 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:16:03pm

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

What he really needs is some way to get some of the pressure from the right off of him, but I am not sure how that could be done. For now his best bet is to spend the summer hurling attack ads and otherwise keeping relatively quiet.

Republicans have painted themselves into a corner, nobody electable can lead them. The safest bet is to lay low and hope for the best but I really don't think Mitt has much chance of winning anyways. In the big picture the best thing Mitt could do for his party right now is start telling them some hard truths. That ain't gonna happen but I can dream.

56 freetoken  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:18:04pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

... In the big picture the best thing Mitt could do for his party right now is start telling them some hard truths. ...

If only.

American politics is not something which encourages this.

57 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:18:11pm

Report: Rare Iran protest over food price hikes

An Iranian news agency reports people have poured into the streets of a northeastern city to protest a steep hike in the price of chicken.

Protesters blamed mismanagement by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's administration, but the rare demonstration could be an indication of effects of Western sanctions over Iran's suspect nuclear program.

58 freetoken  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:20:44pm

re: #57 Killgore Trout

Corn, soybean yield hole deepens -- USDA

The decline in corn and soybean conditions continues, showing the drought of 2012 seemingly has no intentions of loosening its grip on this year's crops.

Monday's USDA-NASS Crop Progress report shows that as of Sunday, only 26% of the nation's corn crop is rated in either the good or excellent category. Meanwhile, just shy of half -- 45% -- of the crop is rated very poor or poor. That's a 7% increase in the number of acres that could be near the end of the line for this year.

Soybean conditions remain slightly better than corn, but not much; as of Sunday, 31% of the bean crop is rated good to excellent, while 35% is rated very poor or poor, according to USDA.

[...]

59 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:21:06pm

re: #38 freetoken

It's hard slogging, to engage creationists. I do that on occasion, and it's a lot of work to make even the tiniest progress.

Like trying to nail Jello to a tree.

60 erik_t  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:22:55pm

re: #59 Mich-again

Like trying to nail Jello to a tree.

Jello was intelligently designed to be un-nailable.

61 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:24:43pm

re: #56 freetoken

If only.

American politics is not something which encourages this.

..And that's something that falls squarely on us as voters. We continually reject hard truths and complicated issues in favor of platitudes and pandering. We can't blame bankers, cultural elites or unlimited corporate political funding. It's all us.

62 freetoken  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:27:20pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

Oh look, over there, Kim is on the green carpet:

Kim Kardashian walks the green carpet

63 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:28:15pm

re: #58 freetoken

Corn, soybean yield hole deepens -- USDA

I'm happy to say with my greenhouse I'm as close to food independence as I'm going to get without raising livestock. Here in the US we're pretty insulated from food prices but for the rest of the planet it's going to be a big issue.

64 Digital Display  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:31:04pm

My Dear Lizards.. I did not even crawl out of bed until 3pm today.. I'm exhausted.. Reading the news of the shooting in Co. ( I saw pictures of all the victims tonight and it shook me to the core )
The Scandal at Penn State deeply effects me and shakes the very foundation of my roots in sports and father figures.
Tonight I hate this world...we have failed everyone..We failed our children..
I'm sick.. But listen..I'm really tired from traveling and have much more to do..
This weekend I'm heading to SFO to visit an old college friend that has a wicked flat in the city and wants a roommate. We may move back to Cali but the other options offers hope of living in the middle of freaking nowhere, Enjoying life and relationships and letting the world pass by Winston and I.
/ Is that heavy shit or what? I need coffee bad..Love you folks.. *Wink*

65 Kragar  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:36:12pm

re: #60 erik_t

Jello was intelligently designed to be un-nailable.

Freeze it first.

66 Robert O.  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:37:09pm

Signed. The more people we have signing this, the better. Just think: if this was not about science but religion, would there be only 38,000 signatures? We, the silent majority who believe in facts and science need to start organizing and flexing our muscles.

Meanwhile, you might consider signing a different petition at the White House website urging President Obama to call on Indonesia's government to protect an atheist:

[Link: petitions.whitehouse.gov...]

67 freetoken  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:37:29pm

Gold bug extraordinaire and reclusive master of dominionism, Gary North, comes right out and declares:

What If 20% of the Adults in That Colorado Theater Had Been Armed and Trained?

I have a question.

If 20% of the adults in that Colorado theater had been armed with a handgun and trained in its use, how many people would have died in addition to the shooter?

I think the answer is clear: fewer.

The reason why so many died is that 99% of the people in that theater were unarmed. There was only one exception.

I offer a proposition:

"Armed and dangerous" is an inescapable concept. There is no such thing as "unarmed and safe." There is only the question of which person or group is armed and dangerous.

It would have been far better if 100% of the adults in that theater had been armed and trained. But we must be reasonable in our assumptions. We cannot expect 100% of any large group to get trained in the use of a handgun. But 20% is reasonable.

The reason why we do not have 20% of our population armed and trained is because the culture of gun control is dominant. There is a stigma for people to carry a weapon. It begins early.

Um... right.

He then slides into to talking about "inner-city males" - real slick.

68 Robert O.  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:45:09pm

re: #67 freetoken

Gold bug extraordinaire and reclusive master of dominionism, Gary North, comes right out and declares:

What If 20% of the Adults in That Colorado Theater Had Been Armed and Trained?

Then we might have been dealing with many more dead bodies. Can anyone imagine firing guns in a dark theater where a smoke bomb had been let off, people were panicked running for cover, and the gunman was wearing a protective vest? In the other high profile shooting case involving Congressman Gifford, the gunman was wrestled to the ground, and the person who took the gun away from him was very nearly shot and killed by a bystander storming into the room with a gun thinking he was the shooter. Sadly, this country is full of know-nothings who think they are Rambo.

69 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 5:48:14pm

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

What he really needs is some way to get some of the pressure from the right off of him, but I am not sure how that could be done. For now his best bet is to spend the summer hurling attack ads and otherwise keeping relatively quiet.

Dark just admit that your party is beholden to social conservatives and what it needs is to keep loosing elections until they eject the socons the same way the democratic party did to the dixiecrats.

70 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 6:23:13pm

re: #67 freetoken

Gold bug extraordinaire and reclusive master of dominionism, Gary North, comes right out and declares:

What If 20% of the Adults in That Colorado Theater Had Been Armed and Trained?

I think the answer is clear: fewer.

The reason why so many died is that 99% of the people in that theater were unarmed. There was only one exception.

I offer a proposition:

It would have been far better if 100% of the adults in that theater had been armed and trained. But we must be reasonable in our assumptions. We cannot expect 100% of any large group to get trained in the use of a handgun. But 20% is reasonable.

The reason why we do not have 20% of our population armed and trained is because the culture of gun control is dominant. There is a stigma for people to carry a weapon. It begins early.

Um... right.

He then slides into to talking about "inner-city males" - real slick.

OMG WTF

71 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 6:23:33pm

re: #67 freetoken

Gold bug extraordinaire and reclusive master of dominionism, Gary North, comes right out and declares:

What If 20% of the Adults in That Colorado Theater Had Been Armed and Trained?

I think the answer is clear: fewer.

The reason why so many died is that 99% of the people in that theater were unarmed. There was only one exception.

I offer a proposition:

It would have been far better if 100% of the adults in that theater had been armed and trained. But we must be reasonable in our assumptions. We cannot expect 100% of any large group to get trained in the use of a handgun. But 20% is reasonable.

The reason why we do not have 20% of our population armed and trained is because the culture of gun control is dominant. There is a stigma for people to carry a weapon. It begins early.

Um... right.

He then slides into to talking about "inner-city males" - real slick.

Want to cause maximum carnage in a room full of armed people? Just throw in a couple of smoke canisters, use a automatic weapon to kick off the fear response in the room and then leave.

72 labman57  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 6:32:31pm

That would be the nation's shortest presidential debate.

Q: "Do you believe in the validity of the scientific process?"
Obama: "Of course"
Romney: "Maybe, and only when it doesn't conflict with my religious beliefs. ... Uh, what exactly is the scientific process?"

73 freetoken  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 6:35:12pm

re: #72 labman57

That would be the nation's shortest presidential debate.

Q: "Do you believe in the validity of the scientific process?"
Obama: "Of course"
Romney: "Maybe, and only when it doesn't conflict with my religious beliefs. ... Uh, what exactly is the scientific process?"

Or this:

Romney: " I wouldn't put it in exactly those terms."

74 drool  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 8:56:34pm

My Question. How old is the earth....thousands or billions of years?

75 Aye Pod  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 4:30:50am

re: #74 drool

My Question. How old is the earth...thousands or billions of years?

Billions.

76 Patricia Kayden  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 1:39:26pm

Not sure if the majority of Americans (many of whom believe in Creationism and probably are skeptical about global warming) would be interested in a Presidential science debate. Cannot imagine that the Repubs are trying to get the scientist vote. LOL.


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