Here’s the latest edition of our podcast affiliate, the Bubble Genius Bob & Chez Show.
Jackass: Chez on Stephanie Miller’s Happy Hour; Farewell to Jon Stewart and the End of Late Night Satire; The First GOP Debate; The Fake Story About Drinking Games; Jeb Bush Rips Donald Trump; Fox News Focus Group Goes Nuts About Trump; Jesse Ventura Goes Off About the GOP Debates; and much more.
Looks like another Sunday of All Republicans All the Time I can sleep in.
Face the Nation: Donald Trump; Carly Fiorina ; Bernie Sanders; Ben Carson ; Reince Priebus; NAACP President William Cornell Brooks
This Week: Donald Trump ; Rick Perry ; Mike Huckabee ; John Kasich ; Cory Booker
Fox News Sunday: Carly Fiorina ; Rand Paul
State of the Union: Carly Fiorina ; John Kasich .
How did Bernie and Cory slip into the fold? (Not sure who’s on Press the Meat—I’m sure Chuck Toad has a stellar lineup.
Liberal media, you say? Sigh.
lawhawk @ #27 downstairs:
Hmmm…
Roger Stone is/was Trump’s political advisor.
He was either fired or resigned this morning.
Stone denies being fired - sent letter resigning this mornning.
— Maggie Haberman (@maggieNYT) August 8, 2015
Curious.
Sounds like he was resigned. We’ve seen that from Trump before too.
Snerk:
I'm sure Roger Stone, who launched an anti-Hilary PAC called Citizens United Not Timid, resigned out of principle http://t.co/eeQchjnIlj
— Wyeth Ruthven (@wyethwire) August 8, 2015
re: #3 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
lawhawk @ #27 downstairs:
Snerk:
[Embedded content]
From that old TPM article:
He continues to idolize the man, even sporting a tattoo of Nixon’s face between his shoulder blades.
Ewwwwww.
re: #3 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
That’s a lot of stubble.
And oh, Trump never changes:
(From 2008)
This week’s New Yorker profile of gonzo GOP operative Roger Stone tells us a lot of things that we already knew… several things we did not know…Other amazing tidbits below:
• Donald Trump hates Stone almost as much as he hates Rosie O’Donnell: “Roger is a stone-cold loser,” he said. “He always tries taking credit for things he never did.”
nymag.com
Hey! Just attended a beautiful wedding here in Portland. We have reservations at some extreme restaurant tomorrow night. But what to do before? We’re going to the bernie sanders rally!
Night all. My kitchen floor sounds like velcro when I walk across it, from the Ginger Beer Incident tonight.
Bother. There must be a moppage intervention tomorrow.
Sweet dreams!
re: #7 #FergusonFireside
Ohh,mg. Please report!
Off-topic, but I have to share this:
“Signed up to help at a pro-life bake sale. I’ll be selling cups of uncooked batter and insisting that they’re actually cupcakes.”
re: #10 Teukka
Off-topic, but I have to share this:
“Signed up to help at a pro-life bake sale. I’ll be selling cups of uncooked batter and insisting that they’re actually cupcakes.”
I’ll be selling teaspoons of your batter for research purposes and using the proceeds to buy a Lamborghini.
It’s 3:27. I’m alone in the house, and just awoke to a sexy female voice. The second or third time that happened I was awake enough to make out what she was saying: “Speaker battery low.”
A movement should never be confused with the principles it claims to represent.
The principles may be great, 100% true, eternal, etc.
But any movement consists of us, fallible humans. And we’ll often turn everything into shit, if given a chance.
Jesus (if he existed) would have been aghast at what people of his movement did throughout the centuries. The Bolsheviks had all the right-sounding slogans, but still managed to drown themselves in sectarian fights and then the whole country in blood. The atheistic movement in the West says all the right stuff philosophically, yet many of the apparent “leaders” are total douches. And so on, and on, and on…
Respect the principles. But be wary of movements.
IIUC, this is the same org that shut down Bernie’s rally:
We cannot be free until we destroy our false idols. #BlackSpring pic.twitter.com/RiSiexxA4c
— Outside Agitators206 (@OA_206) May 2, 2015
re: #14 Nyet
IIUC, this is the same org that shut down Bernie’s rally:
[Embedded content]
Tugging on that thread brings you here:
Fucking 1920s Trotskyites with smartphones.
The ISO does not support the Republican Party or Democratic Party, both of which it views as political representatives of corporate power. The group has, however, campaigned for the Green Party in various races and assisted Ralph Nader’s presidential campaigns in 2000 and 2004.[32] In California in 2006, ISO member Todd Chretien challenged Dianne Feinstein for a seat in the United States Senate on the Green Party ticket, receiving 139,425 votes (1.8 percent).[33]
…
“Socialism” conference
The ISO is the co-sponsor, along with the Center for Economic Research and Social Change, of an annual conference entitled “Socialism”.[38] Speakers at past Socialism conferences include filmmaker and author Tariq Ali, actor Wallace Shawn, The Nation sportswriter Dave Zirin, writer Glenn Greenwald, journalist Amy Goodman, environmental writer John Bellamy Foster, The Nation contributor Jeremy Scahill, Iraq Veterans Against the War member Camilo Mejía, and Palestinian rights activists Omar Barghouti and Ali Abunimah.[39][40]
Q. What do you get when you cross a Black Trotskyite with a Green Libertarian?
A. A fabled creature that does exactly what the Kochs and RNC want.
This was an interesting test (Also Netroots) for Bernie and his supporters.
I think they both failed them. Bernie has no idea how to handle it other then to leave. And don’t get me started on his supporter’s reaction.
re: #18 Varek Raith
Bernie and O’Malley seem like fish out of water.
re: #18 Varek Raith
Bernie has no idea how to handle it other then to leave.
Perhaps the most important point. He’s just not presidential material. A President shouldn’t throw temper tantrums when things don’t go according to plan.
re: #21 William Lewis
Way to kill an idea: start a movement around it. //
Which is why successful movements (like the old Civil Rights movement) are all the more great, if rare.
re: #20 Nyet
Perhaps the most important point. He’s just not presidential material. A President shouldn’t throw temper tantrums when things don’t go according to plan.
Overall I think I agree. But I’ve never thought he’d be the nominee anyway. I am getting what I hoped for though - dragging the economic discussion leftward from where it was. If he were better at the racial issues, it would be great but all we can get, I think, is discussion of those things he does understand and then we can get together to elect Hillary Clinton.
re: #19 Nyet
Bernie and O’Malley seem like fish out of water.
It is probably my own biases showing but I feel like O’Malley has even less of a clue about anything not an East Coast megatropolis
re: #23 William Lewis
But then you’re a rational pragmatist who understands that you don’t always get the whole pony at once, sometimes only parts of it. ;)
Folks at DKos are gonna get their hopes crushed tho.
re: #25 Nyet
But then you’re a rational pragmatist who understands that you don’t always get the whole pony at once, sometimes only parts of it. ;)
Folks at DKos are gonna get their hopes crushed tho.
It will help them grow.
re: #26 Decatur Deb
It will help them grow.
Eh, I hoped that about Nader. Now I just want the Kos kiddies to not screw it up.
re: #23 William Lewis
Overall I think I agree. But I’ve never thought he’d be the nominee anyway. I am getting what I hoped for though - dragging the economic discussion leftward from where it was. If he were better at the racial issues, it would be great but all we can get, I think, is discussion of those things he does understand and then we can get together to elect Hillary Clinton.
I was rooting for Sanders for that same reason, push everything left. Dragging everything leftward is good for the party and the nation but what Bernie is trying to do to the party BLM decided to do through too but through the Bernie campaign.
I can’t believe how horribly the Sanders campaign has dealt with this, it makes his whole organization look like a bunch of deer in the headlights deer zombies.
The Sanders online supporters come off looking even worse. They were the same ones cheering Code Pink and OWS as they disrupted dems all over the nation but now their hypocrisy is not even an amusing embarrassment.
re: #28 b.d.
I was rooting for Sanders for that same reason, push everything left. Dragging everything leftward is good for the party and the nation but what Bernie is trying to do to the party BLM decided to do through too but through the Bernie campaign.
I can’t believe how horribly the Sanders campaign has dealt with this, it makes his whole organization look like a bunch of deer in the headlights deer zombies.
The Sanders online supporters come off looking even worse. They were the same ones cheering Code Pink and OWS as they disrupted dems all over the nation but now their hypocrisy is not even an amusing embarrassment.
Who gains if the progressives sink into infighting and the Sanders campaign dies in its crib?
Intercept much?
“I’m honored to join the talented team at First Look and help fulfill its important mission,” Temple said. “It’s a dream come true to be part of building a new media company committed to service and experimentation.” 16 Jun 2014
My Job Is Done
John TempleJuly 22, 2015
The time has come for me to leave First Look. The company has reached a place where I feel comfortable putting the call of my own projects and my need for more personal time first.
re: #29 Decatur Deb
Who gains if the progressives sink into infighting and the Sanders campaign dies in its crib?
The next progressive candidate who hopefully will be more prepared to hit a curveball? Is this a necessary growing pain for the farer left who really haven’t even had a real candidate in a lifetime?
I truly hope that the Sanders folks can put this to rest and shut up his supporters, who imho make this a bigger story than it really is.
Interruptions happen a lot on the trail but the Sanders’ supporters seem to take each one of them as a personal afront and they can’t quit talking about it…..ever.
I really want Sanders to make HRC talk about the issues Sanders raises, because he is right, but the BLM now know what button to push to completely take over the online Sanders supporters
re: #32 Decatur Deb
To answer my own question:
RNC—70%
HRC—30%
Ha, sorry, you wanted a real answer?! :P
Obviously Jim Webb is the big winner if Sanders goes away.
//
The tinfoil hats on kos are blaming the HRC campaign for secretly being behind this.
You know what? I think that HRC welcomes Sanders. Right now HRC would rather talk about Democratic core principles rather than already being pulled further right by the 40 people running for the GOP nomination. Every inch that Sanders moves that window to the left is one more inch that HRC has to play with when fighting in the general election.
I would actually put the RNC gain at more than 70%. I think HRC needs and wants Sanders in the race for now.
re: #34 b.d.
Ha, sorry, you wanted a real answer?! :P
Obviously Jim Webb is the big winner if Sanders goes away.
//
The tinfoil hats on kos are blaming the HRC campaign for secretly being behind this.
You know what? I think that HRC welcomes Sanders. Right now HRC would rather talk about Democratic core principles rather than already being pulled further right by the 40 people running for the GOP nomination. Every inch that Sanders moves that window to the left is one more inch that HRC has to play with when fighting in the general election.
I would actually put the RNC gain at more than 70%. I think HRC needs and wants Sanders in the race for now.
Yeah. I could have guessed 80-20. The damage this pissfight is doing to overall Dem solidarity is far more of a threat to her than Bernie’s vaporware campaign. I’m not suggesting BLM is a false flag. Why pay saboteurs when they’ll work for free?
re: #29 Decatur Deb
Who gains if the progressives sink into infighting and the Sanders campaign dies in its crib?
Good news for John McCain. But the real beneficiaries are the GOP nutbars who can point and yell ‘See!’. (That, or point and make the pod people “intruder” sound.)
And it came to pass that I finished Mr. Mercedes, Stephen King’s hard-boiled detective novel, and it was good.
re: #34 b.d.
Ha, sorry, you wanted a real answer?! :P
Obviously Jim Webb is the big winner if Sanders goes away.
//
The tinfoil hats on kos are blaming the HRC campaign for secretly being behind this.
You know what? I think that HRC welcomes Sanders. Right now HRC would rather talk about Democratic core principles rather than already being pulled further right by the 40 people running for the GOP nomination. Every inch that Sanders moves that window to the left is one more inch that HRC has to play with when fighting in the general election.
I would actually put the RNC gain at more than 70%. I think HRC needs and wants Sanders in the race for now.
The RW tin foil hats are blaming HRC for Trump being unleashed on the GOP.
re: #38 Feline Fearless Leader
The RW tin foil hats are blaming HRC for Trump being unleashed on the GOP.
I think it was in that podcast above where they said that if HRC was smart enough to plant a Trump bomb in the GOP then she is smarter than anyone ever would have thought and any doubts about her being a great POTUS should be put to rest.
:)
re: #39 b.d.
I think it was in that podcast above where they said that if HRC was smart enough to plant a Trump bomb in the GOP then she is smarter than anyone ever would have thought and any doubts about her being a great POTUS should be put to rest.
:)
Not to mention that it would be the ultimate “rat fuck” of a party ever done. And to the favored group of Mr Limbaugh, who favored such activity in the Democrat primaries in 2008 in order to negatively affect HRC.
Revenge is a dish best served cold.
Stumbled into more First Look (Omidyar) soap opera:
Exclusive: First Look Media’s Chief Revenue Officer Michael Rosen Leaves After First Year
This would be of more interest to Charles, continuing the Greenwald saga.
re: #38 Feline Fearless Leader
The RW tin foil hats are blaming HRC for Trump being unleashed on the GOP.
Its their own fault. If you invite neo-fascists into your party, eventually a leader will emerge.
re: #42 aagcobb
Its their own fault. If you invite neo-fascists into your party, eventually a leader will emerge.
Duerhperprinzip.
re: #37 Nyet
And it came to pass that I finished Mr. Mercedes, Stephen King’s hard-boiled detective novel, and it was good.
I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but what happened to the kid in King’s short story “The Jaunt” still creeps me out to this day.
Hey, DD.
Private just because it’s a church thing that might bore many of the rest of you…
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
re: #44 BongCrodny
I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but what happened to the kid in King’s short story “The Jaunt” still creeps me out to this day.
“I saw everything! Long jaunt!”
Loved that story.
Donald Trump on @FaceTheNation, while bashing Jeb Bush: “I will be phenomenal to the women” - http://t.co/H2CU5WwNC5
— CBS News (@CBSNews) August 9, 2015
The morning talk shows today are a gold mine of derp and projection. How exactly would Trump be phenomenal to the women? He wont be demanding to hear the lamentation of the women? He wont insinuate blood coming from the eyes and whatever to anyone other than Megyn Kelly or whoever else interviews/debate moderates?
re: #47 lawhawk
His usual over compensating for a major mistake.
re: #47 lawhawk
[Embedded content]
The morning talk shows today are a gold mine of derp and projection. How exactly would Trump be phenomenal to the women? He wont be demanding to hear the lamentation of the women? He wont insinuate blood coming from the eyes and whatever to anyone other than Megyn Kelly or whoever else interviews/debate moderates?
I think you need to add “as compared to Ted Cruz” on the end of all of Trumps sentences in order to get them to form some logical complex.
Morning! And the humidity is back. Ugh.
So, reading around a bit it sounds like that dastardly Hillary has started a “Vast Right and Left Wing Conspiracy” and as soon as it plays out she will be in charge of a New World Order in which TRUMP® gets a payback to build all the New World Order Hotels.
Or something.
Damn, that Hillary sure wields some power.
re: #47 lawhawk
[Embedded content]
The morning talk shows today are a gold mine of derp and projection. How exactly would Trump be phenomenal to the women? He wont be demanding to hear the lamentation of the women? He wont insinuate blood coming from the eyes and whatever to anyone other than Megyn Kelly or whoever else interviews/debate moderates?
I’m guessing he has lots and lots of binders, just like Romney.
re: #45 William Lewis
Sorry—I was called away.
Sounds a little burdensome if it involves managing church people instead of doing the work yourself. If so, just apply lessons from the 7th Army NCO Guide. Can’t be any worse than sheepdogging recent Armor School graduates.
re: #13 Nyet
I once told an atheist to stop saddling God with the religions of men and their ills. He sputtered like an old car on a cold morning.
I thought the right wasn’t racist, inflammatory, or misogynist….
#Erickson #Trump #GOP pic.twitter.com/4bD2mPL4nT
— JCF (@jofo2005) August 9, 2015
re: #23 William Lewis
Overall I think I agree. But I’ve never thought he’d be the nominee anyway. I am getting what I hoped for though - dragging the economic discussion leftward from where it was. If he were better at the racial issues, it would be great but all we can get, I think, is discussion of those things he does understand and then we can get together to elect Hillary Clinton.
Good primaries are about the platform more than the personalities. We really need that this time. Desperately if I may say.
On @meetthepress, @marcorubio tells @chucktodd he questions whether there are any instances in which abortion is needed to save life of mom
— Zeke Miller (@ZekeJMiller) August 9, 2015
re: #26 Decatur Deb
It will help them grow.
Maybe, or they might just throw an Eric Cartman-esque temper tantrum at being thwarted or decide that angry and loud black people are scary so they mouth platitudes while moving out of the city to a whiter area where they can ignore reality that makes them uncomfortable.
Younger people today, I think the latter two options are far more likely. Growth takes introspection and fortitude and their helicopter parents didn’t really teach them that.
re: #56 Backwoods_Sleuth
.@ZekeJMiller @meetthepress @chucktodd Remind us where @marcorubio went to medical school.
— Dr. Matt (@DrMatthew) August 9, 2015
re: #53 Great White Snark
I once told an atheist to stop saddling God with the religions of men and their ills. He sputtered like an old car on a cold morning.
Poor debater, that one. Your premise works from the theory that some sort of god exists in the first place.
That may have been why he was sputtering.
re: #57 Dark_Falcon
Maybe, or they might just throw an Eric Cartman-esque temper tantrum at being thwarted or decide that angry and loud black people are scary so they mouth platitudes while moving out of the city to a whiter area where they can ignore reality that makes them uncomfortable.
younger people today, I think the latter two options are far more likely. Growth takes introspection and fortitude and their helicopter parents didn’t really teach them that.
Too many generational assumptions, there. It won’t hurt the KosKids to get a dose of Black frustration, and it will help the BLM to get a lesson in electoral math. For the next presidential cycle, they’ll likely both be frustrated.
re: #53 Great White Snark
I once told an atheist to stop saddling God with the religions of men and their ills.
A lot of Christians need to be told the same thing.
re: #59 Mattand
I think his argument leaned on the mistakes of men too much, and too little on the true heart of the question. Atheism that is motivated by religions tragedies has that problem.
“Is it out there?” has to address the deist as well as the evangelist insisting upon the micromanaging god idea.
re: #60 Decatur Deb
Too many generational assumptions, there. It won’t hurt the KosKids to get a dose of Black frustration, and it will help the BLM to get a lesson in electoral math. For the next presidential cycle, they’ll likely both be frustrated.
Frustrated by the election of Marco Rubio, is what I’m hoping.
Heh.
re: #63 Dark_Falcon
Frustrated by the election of Marco Rubio, is what I’m hoping.
Heh.
Dream on. Not going to happen with the Base the GOP has.
re: #57 Dark_Falcon
Maybe, or they might just throw an Eric Cartman-esque temper tantrum at being thwarted or decide that angry and loud black people are scary so they mouth platitudes while moving out of the city to a whiter area where they can ignore reality that makes them uncomfortable.
Younger people today, I think the latter two options are far more likely. Growth takes introspection and fortitude and their helicopter parents didn’t really teach them that.
Considering white flight has been occurring since the 50s (if not earlier), I don’t think that makes this generation any different than previous ones. Plus, I see plenty (a majority of the country) that has never been very good at introspection.
re: #63 Dark_Falcon
Frustrated by the election of Marco Rubio, is what I’m hoping.
Heh.
You mean the asshole who just got done spouting this?
On @meetthepress, @marcorubio tells @chucktodd he questions whether there are any instances in which abortion is needed to save life of mom
— Zeke Miller (@ZekeJMiller) August 9, 2015
Nice.
More evidence white people are stupid https://t.co/CEXmEAwpbW
— Stolen From Africa (@DaHomieNick) August 9, 2015
Here’s Governor Dropout’s very serious opinion.
Scott Walker calls abortion to save a woman’s life a ‘false choice’
Gov. Scott Walker says choosing between the life of a pregnant woman and her fetus is a “false choice,” adding that he believes better options are always available.
Walker’s statements in a television interview after Thursday’s Republican presidential debate underscore how he has become increasingly vocal about his views against abortion now that he’s running for president.
Abortion rights activists say that in some cases, the only option to protect a woman’s life is to end her pregnancy.
“It’s a false choice. There is always a better option out there,” Walker told Fox News’ Sean Hannity on Thursday night.
“I’ve said for years, medically there’s always a better choice than choosing between the life of an unborn baby and the life of the mother,” he added. “Medically that’s just a nonissue.”
re: #64 Tigger2
Dream on. Not going to happen with the Base the GOP has.
Laugh all you want, but nobody is accounting for voter restriction laws.
re: #66 Amory Blaine
Rubio is your pick?
At present, yes. He’s firmly conservative, but he’s not a nut (not as I see things, though others here have different definitions of “nut”). He’s also not some “rich white guy” type who the public won’t relate to.
re: #62 Great White Snark
I think his argument leaned on the mistakes of men too much, and too little on the true heart of the question. Atheism that is motivated by religions tragedies has that problem.
“Is it out there?” has to address the deist as well as the evangelist insisting upon the micromanaging god idea.
I’m coming from the angle of “The current evidence supporting the existence of God, Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, Thor, etc. is not there.” These beings aren’t real. So to tell someone you shouldn’t blame God for men doing bad shit in his name doesn’t hold water.
And honestly, I don’t see a problem with atheism being motivated by religious tragedies. We can build bombs that can eradicate huge swaths of the planet. I think pointing out religion’s facility in victimizing your fellow humans should be right at the forefront.
re: #72 Dark_Falcon
At present, yes. He’s firmly conservative, but he’s not a nut (not as I see things, though others here have different definitions of “nut”). He’s also not some “rich white guy” type who the public won’t relate to.
He’s against abortion even when the life of the mother is at risk. That ALONE makes him a nut.
Yeah, he tried really hard to position himself as the Republican Obama during the debate, talking about his student loan debt and growing up paycheck to paycheck and whatnot, but peel back the curtain and he’s just as terrible for women as every other GOP candidate out there running now.
Trump currently on a phone call with Chuck Todd trying to explain his way out of calling people all kinds of names while calling those that are blaming him for it names.
Erickson is a known loser. Wallace is a lightweight compared to his father.
And Chuckles thinks he can get Trump to apologize. It is not going to happen. He’ll quit the run before he apologizes to anyone.
Would Rubio try to slow down the theocrats? Of course not.
re: #69 Charles Johnson
Nice.
[Embedded content]
@DaHomieNick And you, sir, are more evidence that Twitter caters to foolish haters. #Blocked
— Kurt Akemann (@Dark_Falcon7) August 9, 2015
re: #71 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Laugh all you want, but nobody is accounting for voter restriction laws.
I meant the Base of the GOP doesn’t want Rubio.
Scott Walker tells RedState Gathering he can win in 2016
“I want to spend the last couple of minutes of this session talking about one particular candidate. Hillary Clinton. Let me repeat that — Hillary Clinton,” Walker said. “You know, there’s been a lot of talk in the national media about other candidates. We need to remind the American people, as bad as things are with this president, they would be much worse if there was a President Hillary Clinton.”
Walker touted his record as a second-term Republican governor who enacted a conservative agenda in Wisconsin, including defunding Planned Parenthood and creating a requirement that voters show photo ID at the polls.
“I’m the only one who has fought and won, and actually gotten things done in a blue state. And we did it without compromising our principles,” Walker said. “That’s the kind of leader we need.”
re: #74 Lidane
He’s against abortion even when the life of the mother is at risk. That ALONE makes him a nut.
Yeah, he tried really hard to position himself as the Republican Obama, talking about his student loan debt and growing up paycheck to paycheck and whatnot, but peel back the curtain and he’s just as terrible for women as every other GOP candidate out there running now.
Yeah, that was fucking cold, even by Republican standards that seem plumb new depths in misogyny every week.
This is also a great example of that “Sure, he’d let my wife/sister/cousin die if she needed an abortion, but hey, pobody’s nerfect” Republican thinking that scares me shitless.
re: #61 Belafon
A lot of Christians need to be told the same thing.
+1 does not express my agreement enough. The most maddening to me are the abusers. Most violently expressed in DAESH. But on the domestic front, yes the Christians of fundie advocacy. Fellow fans of 11th century rules.
The most important thing in an atheist - religious discussion is to keep in mind that neither party is right or wrong. There are simply no absolute answers.
re: #70 Amory Blaine
Here’s Governor Dropout’s very serious opinion.
Scott Walker calls abortion to save a woman’s life a ‘false choice’
“I’ve said for years, medically there’s always a better choice than choosing between the life of an unborn baby and the life of the mother,” he added. “Medically that’s just a nonissue.”
Let them both die, is what he means.
re: #78 Tigger2
DO you think the GOP base really wanted Mitt Romney or John McCain?
re: #69 Charles Johnson
Nice.
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At least Shelley says you’re straight (though a little pale).
It wouldn’t turn out well for him if it was my daughter in that situation.
Vicious Babushka this was to your #83 post.
re: #70 Amory Blaine
Here’s Governor Dropout’s very serious opinion.
Scott Walker calls abortion to save a woman’s life a ‘false choice’
Walker got his medical degree in highschool.
re: #81 Great White Snark
I always felt that when it comes to fundamentalists, the hate comes before the religion. Their view of religion is just meant to justify their antisocial attitudes.
re: #84 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
DO you think the GOP base really wanted Mitt Romney or John McCain?
I think the base has changed some since then.
re: #87 Decatur Deb
Walker got his medical degree
in highschooloff the back of a pack of matches.
FTFY.
re: #82 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
The most important thing in an atheist - religious discussion is to keep in mind that neither party is right or wrong. There are simply no absolute answers.
Does the Christian God exist? Maybe. Anything’s possible.
That said, I don’t see any evidence that comes remotely close to proving that claim.
re: #81 Great White Snark
+1 does not express my agreement enough. The most maddening to me are the abusers. Most violently expressed in DAESH. But on the domestic front, yes the Christians of fundie advocacy. Fellow fans of 11th century rules.
I watch a lot of the creationists and I wonder why they don’t see that they’re trying to fit their God into their tiny little minds.
I’m an atheist (grew up going to church so I’ve read and talked about a lot of the Bible), and my reasons for being so I have kept from being influenced by how God’s followers act, but it’s real easy for me to see that most of them don’t even believe in the God described in their book.
re: #92 Mattand
Does the Christian God exist? Maybe. Anything’s possible.
That said, I don’t see any evidence that comes remotely close to proving that claim.
That’s the point. Nobody’s claim can be proven. Jeez.
re: #80 Mattand
This is also a great example of that “Sure, he’d let my wife/sister/cousin die if she needed an abortion, but hey, pobody’s nerfect” Republican thinking that scares me shitless.
Seriously. I mean, I understand someone being personally opposed to abortion. I do NOT understand wanting to outlaw it, especially when a woman will die.
If Republicans were serious about lowering the abortion rate, they’d be out there advocating for science and evidence-based (read: not that Jesus freak abstinence only crap that doesn’t work) sex ed in schools at age-appropriate levels. They’d be advocating for full insurance coverage of every birth control method out there, up to and including IUDs. They’d support emergency contraception being sold over the counter, no questions asked, in all 50 states. They’re not.
Give people factual information about their bodies. Give them the means to control their fertility at an affordable price. Give them the means to stop an unplanned pregnancy before it starts. The abortion rate will naturally lower on its own. But noooo. That puts too much power in the hands of women, so of course the GOP are fundamentally opposed. Pffft.
Oh, right. I forgot. “Reasonable” and “intellectual” conservatives will keep the nutbars from investigating your miscarriages.
— David Waldman (@KagroX) August 9, 2015
Good news: The other Palestinian boy who was burned has woken up and is breathing on his own (though his life is still in danger). The bad news is he asking for his parents and remembers everything.
4-year-old firebombing victim: Where are my parents?
“The first thing he asked was ‘Where’s mom?’” Hussein Dawabsha, the boy’s grandfather, told reporters. “I don’t know how to answer him. He remembers everything.” […]
The grandfather said the boy remembers that he asked his father, Saad, to open the door to his room while the house was on fire, and understood the consequences of the attack.
“I’m burned, they burned me,” the grandfather recounted him saying. […]
re: #95 Tigger2
A year can be a long time.
Not in politics. The GOP consists of millions of people. Not that many enter or leave in a given year. If you go back to the Terry Schiavo case, the Bill Clinton impeachment, the rejection of George H Bush, the ascension or Ronald Reagan, the base hasn’t changed much.
re: #98 jaunte
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It wasn’t that long ago when there were pro-choice GOP politicians. Hell even against abortion but okay with incest, rape, or life of the mother, there were many but now it seems that the GOP has adopted the position of Kang first pretending to be Bob Dole (no abortions for anyone.) Really this party has a sick and obsessed desire to control women and tell them what they can and cannot do with their bodies. Why any thinking woman or why any one for that matter supports this party is beyond me.
re: #96 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
That’s the point. Nobody’s claim can be proven. Jeez.
Amazing how many times the word “faith” gets lost in religious discussions.
It has a lot to do with believing something that is not proven one way or another. To me atheists have faith there is no god the same way a religious person has faith there is. Both of them are believers. Both think the others are wrong. Only “faith” keeps them both believing what they believe.
And both tend to take their faith and beliefs and turn them into causes and go about trying to change the others faith and belief and bring them into alignment with their own
And thus it all goes into politics!
And we all ride the merry-go-‘round!
; )
re: #96 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
That’s the point. Nobody’s claim can be proven. Jeez.
If the majority of evidence says “This supernatural being isn’t real”, then getting mad at people for scapegoating said supernatural being doesn’t make sense.
re: #97 Lidane
Seriously. I mean, I understand someone being personally opposed to abortion. I do NOT understand wanting to outlaw it, especially when a woman will die.
If Republicans were serious about lowering the abortion rate, they’d be out there advocating for science and evidence-based (read: not that Jesus freak abstinence only crap that doesn’t work) sex ed in schools at age-appropriate levels. They’d be advocating for full insurance coverage of every birth control method out there, up to and including IUDs. They’d support emergency contraception being sold over the counter, no questions asked, in all 50 states. They’re not.
Give people factual information about their bodies. Give them the means to control their fertility at an affordable price. Give them the means to stop an unplanned pregnancy before it starts. The abortion rate will naturally lower on its own. But noooo. That puts too much power in the hands of women, so of course the GOP are fundamentally opposed. Pffft.
It’s interesting to note that abortions actually go down with liberal/Democratic policies. It’s just pathetic really. Republicans/wingnuts claim to hate abortion yet they oppose anything that makes birth control more readily available, they don’t support realistic discussion or in many cases any discussion of sexual education, and they want to make the actual life of the mother and child difficult after birth by opposing things like food stamps, welfare, or any other thing that could make the life better of a poor and or unwed mother that has a child. Their position is simply “Have the baby you slut.”
re: #77 Dark_Falcon
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No, really - DaHomieNick has a point. Apologies to Charles, but saying BLM should protest the GOP, not the Dems, is the wrong answer.
BLM knows who their most likely allies are, and it sure as hell is NOT in the GOP. Yesterday’s disruption was counterproductive, but mostly, I’d argue, because it was badly done. Democrats need to address this, because no matter how important our other issues may be, this is an issue of literal life and death for blacks, who are a vital part of our coalition.
As Goldie Taylor tweeted last night, you knock on the door that may be opened, not the one welded shut.
re: #102 ObserverArt
Got me thinking. Where religion and science collide-Perhaps expressed as two big places. Cosmology, the origin story and then sociology ie how to make people behave.
On cosmology the science as far as it goes is very strong. Religious insistence that the sun rides round the earth or all history is a few thousand years is just silly. Yet religion may well fuel our cosmological curiosity in many instances.
On the social scene the science is weak, a soft science at best. Religion keeps tripping up over that power corrupts thing. Again and again and again. The social sciences such as they are seem to be the best check on religion. Hence our amendment separating the government from its peoples religions.
New NBC poll out, GOP voters nationally, taken Fri & Sat pic.twitter.com/X4vWgSIiC9
— Matt Mackowiak (@MattMackowiak) August 9, 2015
re: #103 Mattand
If the majority of evidence says “This supernatural being isn’t real”, then getting mad at people for scapegoating said supernatural being doesn’t make sense.
Majority of evidence? There is no evidence at all either for or against the existence of a deity. People (of both sides) mistake perception for evidence. On the side of the believers in God, there is the very existence of the Universe and unexplained phenomena (miracles) which must have been the work of the deity, even though there is no proof. On the atheist side, the is undeniably no direct evidence of the deity’s existence, but lack of evidence does not prove the negative.
Nobody wins.
re: #87 Decatur Deb
Walker got his medical degree in highschool.
If what he says is true, shouldn’t he be going into medicine, not running for president? He should share his solutions and save lives. What? It’s just empty rhetoric. Oh well.
re: #100 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Not in politics. The GOP consists of millions of people. Not that many enter or leave in a given year. If you go back to the Terry Schiavo case, the Bill Clinton impeachment, the rejection of George H Bush, the ascension or Ronald Reagan, the base hasn’t changed much.
Mentality wise it can be, Trump supporters will not go to Rebio if Trump pulls out. Rubio is to tame for them.
New NBC poll out, GOP voters nationally, taken Fri & Sat pic.twitter.com/X4vWgSIiC9
— Matt Mackowiak (@MattMackowiak) August 9, 2015
re: #108 darthstar
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This is only to get even more fun as we hit the fall and enter the winter.
re: #102 ObserverArt
To me atheists have faith there is no god the same way a religious person has faith there is.
But this kind of means you don’t understand faith. You know the trust routine where you falls backwards and your friends/colleagues are supposed to catch you? Atheism is the equivalent to knowing that if no one catches you, you will hit the ground. Faith is believing that your colleagues will catch you.
If God reached out and caught me, I would believe in him, but it wouldn’t be faith. I would have evidence he exists.
And yes, I know about the analogy of the man on the roof, and it’s a great analogy for people who do believe in God. It just doesn’t fill in the gap for explaining God’s existence.
re: #105 Blind Frog Belly White
I didn’t catch that tweet, but somehow it doesn’t seem like BLM is knocking. More like trying to kick the door down.
Hey GOP establishment, you built that (the base that loves the guy with the shitty hair and makes jokes about women being on their periods.) Nice party assholes.
re: #111 Tigger2
Mentality wise it can be, Trump supporters will not go to Rebio if Trump pulls out.
They will go to the last man standing, however. That’s what I meant about Romney and McCain.
re: #109 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Agreed the evidence is what we make of it.
The win is understanding the uncertainty of it in the end. That’s why I say I’m a man of faith. not certainty.
So #BowDownBernie is now a thing on twitter.
sigh…
Savita Halappanavar: abortion would have saved her life #tcot #UniteBlue #ScottWalker http://t.co/X9rqfyRt4F pic.twitter.com/tXNBVrph1N
— The Vicious Babushka (@viciousbabushka) August 9, 2015
re: #104 HappyWarrior
It’s interesting to note that abortions actually go down with liberal/Democratic policies. It’s just pathetic really. Republicans/wingnuts claim to hate abortion yet they oppose anything that makes birth control more readily available, they don’t support realistic discussion or in many cases any discussion of sexual education, and they want to make the actual life of the mother and child difficult after birth by opposing things like food stamps, welfare, or any other thing that could make the life better of a poor and or unwed mother that has a child. Their position is simply “Have the baby you slut.”
Their insistence on certainty, with their position being the only absolutely correct position does not allow them to take the pragmatic approach. They NEED everything to be EITHER/OR. A fertilized ovum cannot BECOME a baby, it must BE a baby. Unapproved sex is wrong, so no accommodation of it is allowable. They can’t compromise on either to gain part of their goal, because they see compromise as just as bad as capitulation.
This, BTW, also explains why we can’t have a deal with Iran - they’re EVIL!!!! and anything short of THEIR capitulation means OUR capitulation.
Have any of the mainstream progressive orgs attempted to assist the budding BLM movement? Sit down with its leaders and impart any wisdom or help in any manner?
re: #117 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
They will go to the last man standing, however. That’s what I meant about Romney and McCain.
The last man standing wont be Rubio. That is what I meant by with the base the GOP has.
I can’t help but notice the context of the two issues dividing parties right now:
The GOP has a major douche nozzle fracturing support because he won’t sugarcoat the xenophobia, racism, and misogyny.
The progressive movement has an issue with BLM over how to address the crisis of dead black bodies piling up under the treads of a racist justice system.
Talk about values.
re: #114 Belafon
“But this kind of means you don’t understand faith. You know the trust routine where you falls backwards and your friends/colleagues are supposed to catch you? Atheism is the equivalent to knowing that if no one catches you, you will hit the ground. Faith is believing that your colleagues will catch you.”
How does atheism equate with anything your colleagues will do?
“If God reached out and caught me, I would believe in him, but it wouldn’t be faith. I would have evidence he exists.”
And if God lets you hit the floor, you have evidence that he exists, but you wouldn’t accept it.
“And yes, I know about the analogy of the man on the roof, and it’s a great analogy for people who do believe in God. It just doesn’t fill in the gap for explaining God’s existence.”
Knowledge is the enemy of faith. You cannot believe in something you know.
re: #109 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Majority of evidence? There is no evidence at all either for or against the existence of a deity. People (of both sides) mistake perception for evidence. On the side of the believers in God, there is the very existence of the Universe and unexplained phenomena (miracles) which must have been the work of the deity, even though there is no proof. On the atheist side, the is undeniably no direct evidence of the deity’s existence, but lack of evidence does not prove the negative.
Nobody wins.
Except that a deity being responsible for the universe merely removes the discussion a step further out-where did God come from? Always there? It’s a mystery? Same could be said for the universe. Unexplained phenomena are just that-not necessarily unexplainable given time and the advance of science.
As an atheist I have no interest in disproving the existence of a deity, any more than I’m going to try to disprove the existence of other things for which there is no evidence.
We all fail to believe in a myriad of things. Most atheists just include gods and other supernatural beings in that group.
Ooops wrong thread/Tab. Meant for the link
Does a god have to have self awareness or principles?
re: #115 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
I didn’t catch that tweet, but somehow it doesn’t seem like BLM is knocking. More like trying to kick the door down.
The story as I understand it is murky about yesterday’s disruption. Was it BLM proper? Or was it some folks who either claimed to be, or were assumed to be BLM?
re: #125 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
And if God lets you hit the floor, you have evidence that he exists, but you wouldn’t accept it.
Nope. Because then I’d also have to believe in Sherlock Holmes, because he let me hit the floor as well.
re: #107 Amory Blaine
What if god is just a giant rock?
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You forget that the NRA is pro-Zardoz.
//
re: #106 Great White Snark
Got me thinking. Where religion and science collide-Perhaps expressed as two big places. Cosmology, the origin story and then sociology ie how to make people behave.
On cosmology the science as far as it goes is very strong. Religious insistence that the sun rides round the earth or all history is a few thousand years is just silly. Yet religion may well fuel our cosmological curiosity in many instances.
On the social scene the science is weak, a soft science at best. Religion keeps tripping up over that power corrupts thing. Again and again and again. The social sciences such as they are seem to be the best check on religion. Hence our amendment separating the government from its peoples religions.
The full quote is:
“Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Great men are almost always evil men.”
[…]
Then there’s the part which often is left out or forgotten.
There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it.
Lord Acton, Letter to Mandell Creighton (5 April 1887)
re: #127 Great White Snark
I thought this Oliver Willis article was an interesting read on the topic: oliverwillis.com
Time for my Sunday morning religious observance. The farmers’ market. Salmon, fresh corn, eggs, basil, eggplant. And anything else that looks good. Better stop at the ATM first. And strawberries. How could I forget strawberries?!
re: #129 Blind Frog Belly White
The story as I understand it is murky about yesterday’s disruption. Was it BLM proper? Or was it some folks who either claimed to be, or were assumed to be BLM?
BLM is a leaderless movement that is just a year old. AFAIK there are 3 BLM groups in Seattle according to Facebook. It was messy and uncomfortable, raw and maybe even counter productive. I’m not saying it’s right, but I understand.
I’ll quote Deray McKesson:
We will not always agree on tactics, internally or externally. We will listen to the intent of those we stand with and grow together
re: #114 Belafon
You know the trust routine where you falls backwards and your friends/colleagues are supposed to catch you? Atheism is the equivalent to knowing that if no one catches you, you will hit the ground. Faith is believing that your colleagues will catch you.
This is where it gets tricky with your example.
A religious person can also believe “if no one catches you, you will hit the ground.” And then their faith states it will all be corrected in the hereafter, or just because something bad worldly happened you will be rewarded after this life. Or, they put their faith in control of their god and accept what ever happens is his way.
The atheist is saying they know there is nothing else. At that point both do not know because there is no proof of anything otherworldly and at that point both are in faith mode.
Your point is about the physical world. The religious person is not tied totally to the real world. The atheist is practicing a belief there is nothing beyond the real world. no one has any proof either way.
(This is all discussion/debate to me. I draw no conclusions either way. One reason I debate it is I can see both points. I am into sciences and real world thinking…but I also was raised and schooled through high school as a Catholic and I swear once you go through all that, it sticks a bit and it does make me consider it all. Call me a bet hedger!)
re: #129 Blind Frog Belly White
The story as I understand it is murky about yesterday’s disruption. Was it BLM proper? Or was it some folks who either claimed to be, or were assumed to be BLM?
Bernie Sanders cut short after ‘Black Lives Matter’ takes over rally
re: #126 calochortus
Except that a deity being responsible for the universe merely removes the discussion a step further out-where did God come from? Always there? It’s a mystery? Same could be said for the universe. Unexplained phenomena are just that-not necessarily unexplainable given time and the advance of science.
As an atheist I have no interest in disproving the existence of a deity, any more than I’m going to try to disprove the existence of other things for which there is no evidence.We all fail to believe in a myriad of things. Most atheists just include gods and other supernatural beings in that group.
Bingo. This is where believers often fail to understand atheists. Sure, there are atheists whose position amounts to a faith-based denial of the possibility of a deity, but that doesn’t apply to a lot of us, possibly most of us. We’re not ‘angry at God’. We simply think that, in the absence of any evidence for a god or gods, that assuming that there is none makes the most sense.
And it’s worth noting that most believers agree with us, as relates to every other god but their own.
I seem to have found a physics experiment conducted by my cat. And not ballistics this time. Apparently she took a shot at creating a truly two dimensional object, perfectly flat. Like her ballistics, a surprisingly good result. Well not so good for the bug!
In any belief system (atheist or non-atheist) there is an element of faith. You cannot have faith in things you know. Faith can only coexist with things you don’t know, cannot prove, yet believe are likely. As a result, you are left with doubt. In the physical world, doubt is expressed in arguments by the limitations of evidence, the limits of a measurement based on the equipment you have (the dreaded significant figures), and there is even the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle which can quantify the limit of certainty in certain areas. What we are certain of we know, and what is left over is error. In all of these case, what we do is manage doubt. Like energy, doubt cannot be created or destroyed. New discoveries only push doubt somewhere else.
Accepting doubt is the ultimate in principle in conservatism. (NOT WINGNUT)
re: #135 JadeHelmCurious
BLM is a leaderless movement that is just a year old. AFAIK there are 3 BLM groups in Seattle according to Facebook. It was messy and uncomfortable, raw and maybe even counter productive. I’m not saying it’s right, but I understand.
I’ll quote Deray McKesson:
That’s what I’m afraid of. Leaderless movements become pointless movements become failed movements. I understand the anger. I fear it will be pissed away unproductively.
re: #128 Amory Blaine
Does a god have to have self awareness or principles?
I’d say yes, and do you mean philosophical or physical?
re: #130 Belafon
Nope. Because then I’d also have to believe in Sherlock Holmes, because he let me hit the floor as well.
That makes no sense at all.
re: #122 Amory Blaine
Have any of the mainstream progressive orgs attempted to assist the budding BLM movement? Sit down with its leaders and impart any wisdom or help in any manner?
BLM seems to be using the Occupy model—no leader, no dialogue, no results.
re: #136 ObserverArt
This is where it gets tricky with your example.
A religious person can also believe “if no one catches you, you will hit the ground.” And then their faith states it will all be corrected in the hereafter, or just because something bad worldly happened you will be rewarded after this life. Or, they put their faith in control of their god and accept what ever happens is his way.
The atheist is saying they know there is nothing else. At that point both do not know because there is no proof of anything otherworldly and at that point both are in faith mode.
Your point is about the physical world. The religious person is not tied totally to the real world. The atheist is practicing a belief there is nothing beyond the real world. no one has any proof either way.
(This is all discussion/debate to me. I draw no conclusions either way. One reason I debate it is I can see both points. I am into sciences and real world thinking…but I also was raised and schooled through high school as a Catholic and I swear once you go through all that, it sticks a bit and it does make me consider it all. Call me a bet hedger!)
No, sorry, but that’s not quite right. The atheist - THIS atheist, anyway - is saying that there’s no reason to believe in any god or gods, so I don’t.
COULD there be a god or gods? Perhaps. But there’s no reason to think there is. And when there’s no reason to think something exists, it’s reasonable to assume it doesn’t.
re: #139 Great White Snark
Now you have either a live cat/live bug, a live cat/dead bug, a dead cat/live bug, or a dead cat/dead bug.
re: #141 Blind Frog Belly White
That’s what I’m afraid of. Leaderless movements become pointless movements become failed movements. I understand the anger. I fear it will be pissed away unproductively.
That’s the thing. It all rests on the shoulders on black folk to make it an issue for white progs to support, done in an acceptable fashion for white progs.
The response to BLM from the white prog community is extremely troubling.
re: #147 Backwoods_Sleuth
Too funny that they are pretending SurveyMonkey is like some sort of valid, scientific poll.
Chuck was called on that and tweeted back that it was scientific.
re: #136 ObserverArt
If you go too far outside the analogy, it does fail, but it was just separating the knowledge from the faith. An atheist lacks faith. Someone who believes in God (or their colleagues) has an extra thing.
And is suspect that if your colleagues didn’t catch you, you’d probably not have much faith in them afterwards.
re: #140 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
In any belief system (atheist or non-atheist) there is an element of faith. You cannot have faith in things you know. Faith can only coexist with things you don’t know, cannot prove, yet believe are likely. As a result, you are left with doubt. In the physical world, doubt is expressed in arguments by the limitations of evidence, the limits of a measurement based on the equipment you have (the dreaded significant figures), and there is even the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle which can quantify the limit of certainty in certain areas. What we are certain of we know, and what is left over is error. In all of these case, what we do is manage doubt. Like energy, doubt cannot be created or destroyed. New discoveries only push doubt somewhere else.
Accepting doubt is the ultimate in principle in conservatism. (NOT WINGNUT)
Not to go all Sophomore Philosophy on you, but there is really only one thing anyone knows - that he or she exists. Everything else may be illusion. But, if you treat what appears to be reality as if it exists as you perceive it, it generally responds appropriately, so it’s a reasonable working hypothesis that it exists.
This is true for everyone. Some people cannot handle that truth, and insist that their god provides an absolute solid certainty, which eases the discomfort of uncertainty. OTOH, many believers are comfortable with that truth. That’s the kind of believers who raised me.
And as far as Trump’s women problems go? Check this out…
I suppose we should have foreseen that Maureen Dowd would be one of the first mainstream pundits to write a “taking Donald Trump seriously” column
From Dowd’s column:
I enjoy Trump’s hyperbolic, un-P.C. flights because there are too few operatic characters in the world. I think of him as a Toon. He’s just drawn that way. And his Frank Sinatra lingo about women aside, he always treated me courteously and professionally.
Back in 1999, when he was flirting with a presidential run, I asked the ladies’ man how he would do with the women’s vote.
Ladies man…Frank Sinatra lingo…
No wonder women have their panties in a twist. They don’t understand the Donald.
/
I would have no intention of trying to talk an atheist out of her/his beliefs, any more than I would try to talk a Methodist into becoming a Catholic. I guess the scope of what I am trying to contribute is that (sorry to repeat) nobody is right, and simultaneously, nobody is wrong. There might be flaws in arguments people use to support their views, (and it’s easy to get bogged down in those), but the fact remains that neither side can prove their beliefs, and are entitled to have them accepted.
The important thing is what people do. Do they try to take away your rights, deny your livelihood, etc.
‘panties in a twist’ was just Frank Sinatra lingo…I don’t talk like that in front of my mother.
re: #102 ObserverArt
To me atheists have faith there is no god the same way a religious person has faith there is. Both of them are believers. Both think the others are wrong. Only “faith” keeps them both believing what they believe.
NOPE. This is a common misconstruction of atheism.
I don’t believe in the gods professed and described by other human beings. I see no convincing evidence for their existence, and frankly I no longer have any emotional need to believe they exist, either. And let’s be honest, faith is about emotional need, not anything rational - if it was rational, it wouldn’t be faith.
That doesn’t mean that there isn’t some kind of god, force, or creator being. Show me good, repeatable, non-subjective evidence of such a thing, and I’ll believe it exists. It’s that simple.
I don’t have any faith that there is no god, I’m just pretty much 100% secure that nothing like what’s described by the believers exists. It would be “faith” on my part if you showed me repeatable, testable, objectively clear evidence of such a thing existing, and I denied it for emotional reasons.
What makes atheists “angry” is the fifty-mile-long daily list of abuses of human rights, decency, dignity, and intelligence inflicted upon each other all over the world, hour by hour, day by day, non-stop, over what by all rights appears to be literally nothing tangible or worthwhile. THAT is why any socially aware non-believer is going to be “angry at god”. I can’t be angry at anybody’s gods any more than I can be angry at Santa Claus. I am angry at the ideology, eschatology, the distorted reality, and the blinkered way people enslave their dignity and intelligence to these terrible, terrible ideas, and use them as excuses to hurt others.
Now tribalism and the social instinct to “do onto others before they do onto you” - that’s the real mystery to me. Gods are pretty boring by comparison.
re: #151 Belafon
You’re wrong when you say an atheist lacks faith. An atheist believes there is no God, which is something that cannot be proven, ergo, faith.
re: #148 JadeHelmCurious
That’s the thing. It all rests on the shoulders on black folk to make it an issue for white progs to support, done in an acceptable fashion for white progs.
The response to BLM from the white prog community is extremely troubling.
It seems that a number of blacks weren’t too happy with the events yesterday either:
(there are tweets in that link). And look at the Oliver Willis link above.
re: #140 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
In any belief system (atheist or non-atheist) there is an element of faith.
Actually, my belief system lacks faith. I don’t have faith in an absence of a higher power: I have no faith in it to begin with.
A pretty significant underpinning.
re: #159 JadeHelmCurious
See my 157. You have faith whether you want it or not:)
re: #159 JadeHelmCurious
Actually, my belief system lacks faith. I don’t have faith in an absence of a higher power: I have no faith in it to begin with.
A pretty significant underpinning.
I don’t believe half the shit I see.
re: #158 Belafon
It seems that a number of blacks weren’t too happy with the events yesterday either:
(there are tweets in that link). And look at the Oliver Willis link above.
Yes, I’m well aware of the displeasure of many, Oliver Willis was out in front yesterday. I’m very ambivalent about yesterday, lots of cringeworthy stuff. But that yesterday ‘set the BLM movement back,’ I’m not sure about that.
re: #148 JadeHelmCurious
That’s the thing. It all rests on the shoulders on black folk to make it an issue for white progs to support, done in an acceptable fashion for white progs.
The response to BLM from the white prog community is extremely troubling.
I understand and agree completely. The thing is, anger is not enough. A movement that seeks change has to articulate that change. “End White Supremacy” is a slogan, not a path.
re: #160 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
See my 157. You have faith whether you want it or not:)
Uh, no. This is where theists and atheists come to an impasse. Theists believe ‘you have to believe in something’ and atheists are ‘no, we don’t.’
How does Ben Carson have 11% after Thursday night. Did the pollsters make multiple calls to his house and relatives. He was like a cardboard cutout at the debate. (no offense to cardboard).
re: #165 Iwouldprefernotto
How does Ben Carson have 11% after Thursday night. Did the pollsters make multiple calls to his house and relatives. He was like a cardboard cutout at the debate. (no offense to cardboard).
He made gains because nobody noticed him.
re: #162 JadeHelmCurious
Resonance from two waves made this event- Sanders admitted but not yet demonstrated weakness as a Presidential prospect, and growing pains at BLM. Had that been a Hilary Clinton event the security and staff would have headed it right off.
re: #145 Blind Frog Belly White
No, sorry, but that’s not quite right. The atheist - THIS atheist, anyway - is saying that there’s no reason to believe in any god or gods, so I don’t.
COULD there be a god or gods? Perhaps. But there’s no reason to think there is. And when there’s no reason to think something exists, it’s reasonable to assume it doesn’t.
I understand. You do realize that you just stated there must be degrees of atheists. I would think most people think an atheist would have no belief in any god not that there could or could not be a god(s).
Would that not make you more of an agnostic? And I’m thinking there are degrees to being an agnostic too. It all can become humanly complicated.
And the whole discussion makes me wonder how many people believe what they do out of a convenience for simplicity and ease. It may just be simple for some people to be religious or an atheist because they both allow for no further thinking on the subject.
And that is what I cannot do. I cannot stop thinking about it all. And I do believe that is the real human position. We all hedge our bets to a degree. There is always that doubt, if admitted.
re: #148 JadeHelmCurious
That’s the thing. It all rests on the shoulders on black folk to make it an issue for white progs to support, done in an acceptable fashion for white progs.
The response to BLM from the white prog community is extremely troubling.
It shouldn’t surprise you, though, at least not from Sen. Sanders. He’s not had occasion to engage issues of race, since he’s from a state that is still almost exclusively composed of white ethnic groups.
Black activists haven’t done themselves a favor by going after Sanders like they have, though. Going after an old man who main problem is not having known black people is not going to go over well with people who aren’t black, especially not with older people. And old people play a much greater role in elections than young people, because they vote in much larger percentages.
re: #69 Charles Johnson
Can I get an “Amen!”
re: #165 Iwouldprefernotto
How does Ben Carson have 11% after Thursday night. Did the pollsters make multiple calls to his house and relatives. He was like a cardboard cutout at the debate. (no offense to cardboard).
It was an online survey. Anyone could “vote”.
re: #170 Dark_Falcon
He was active in the civil rights movement
Sanders was an organizer for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and participated in the historic March on Washington in 1963 as a 22-year-old student at the University of Chicago. “It was a question for me of just basic justice — the fact that it was not acceptable in America at that point that you had large numbers of African-Americans who couldn’t vote, who couldn’t eat in a restaurant, whose kids were going to segregated schools, who couldn’t get hotel accommodations living in segregated housing,” he told the Burlington Free Press. “That was clearly a major American injustice and something that had to be dealt with.”
re: #164 JadeHelmCurious
I never said you have to believe anything. I say you already do. Faith isn’t a bad thing. As I said before, faith is what you have when you don’t know. Nobody knows whether or not there is a God, but since you have a position on the matter, it is based on something you don’t know, which means you have faith. Heck, people have faith in for more mundane matters all the time, that’s why I say faith isn’t a bad thing. If my gas tank is near E, I may not know how much gas I really have left, but I have faith that I’ll make it to the next gas station. I don’t know who’s cooking my food, but I have faith that they’ll do the best they can to make it taste good and keep it clean.
re: #168 Great White Snark
Resonance from two waves made this event- Sanders admitted but not yet demonstrated weakness as a Presidential prospect, and growing pains at BLM. Had that been a Hilary Clinton event the security and staff would have headed it right off.
I still hold out hope that Bernie can get on top of this issue and help drive it. If nothing else, maybe Hillary will take the pass and continue on. One can dream.
re: #69 Charles Johnson
It’s not a good idea to piss of people who have your backs.
re: #176 Dark_Falcon
Upding for the S.E. Hinton reference.
And Robert Frost:
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leafs a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
re: #155 darthstar
‘panties in a twist’ was just Frank Sinatra lingo…I don’t talk like that in front of my mother.
If they’re twisted too tight, do they cause bleeding?
//
re: #175 JadeHelmCurious
I still hold out hope that Bernie can get on top of this issue and help drive it. If nothing else, maybe Hillary will take the pass and continue on. One can dream.
It’s a test of Sanders’ leadership. If he can’t address the concerns of the black community (and remember, these are utterly valid concerns), taking input from leadership, using their experience, absorbing their expertise into his, THEN HE DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE PRESIDENT.
If he can’t deal with folks who are close to him ideologically, then how’s he gonna deal with folks who are far from him?
re: #169 ObserverArt
I understand. You do realize that you just stated there must be degrees of atheists. I would think most people think an atheist would have no belief in any god not that there could or could not be a god(s).
Would that not make you more of an agnostic? And I’m thinking there are degrees to being an agnostic too. It all can become humanly complicated.
And the whole discussion makes me wonder how many people believe what they do out of a convenience for simplicity and ease. It may just be simple for some people to be religious or an atheist because they both allow for no further thinking on the subject.
And that is what I cannot do. I cannot stop thinking about it all. And I do believe that is the real human position. We all hedge our bets to a degree. There is always that doubt, if admitted.
The thing is, you’re trying to divide a spectrum into categories.
To me, the definition of atheism is simple:
Do you believe there’s a god or gods? If you answer no, you’re an atheist, whether you accept the possibility that you’re wrong, or you don’t.
I used to call myself an agnostic, because I bought into the ‘atheism is faith-based, too!’ argument. But really, it’s not. At least for me. And that’s why I don’t really think it makes sense to have an ‘Atheist Cause’ or an ‘Atheist Movement’, because you don’t group people according to what they don’t believe in.
re: #155 darthstar
‘panties in a twist’ was just Frank Sinatra lingo…I don’t talk like that in front of my mother.
Heh that’s something my mother would say to me.
re: #170 Dark_Falcon
It shouldn’t surprise me? No, it shouldn’t. But being progressive is learning new stuff, trying new ways to do things and understanding. He can learn. He might. Maybe his fanatical supporters will too.
re: #160 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
See my 157. You have faith whether you want it or not:)
That’s the root basis of the claim that Atheism is a religion. Yadda yadda yadda.
Which I think is BS.
re: #157 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
You’re wrong when you say an atheist lacks faith. An atheist believes there is no God, which is something that cannot be proven, ergo, faith.
Except that’s not quite right. I do not believe there is a God.
The problem is the direction we’re coming from. You are starting from the POV that there is a god, and my denying his existence is a belief. I am coming from the POV that there is no god, and that accepting that one exists shows faith.
You can choose to believe that the rock I am holding is keeping tigers away. But since there are no tigers around, I’m not really going to (Simpsons reference).
And yes, this argument could go round and round because it doesn’t require any evidence. I also currently don’t believe in faster-than-light travel.
re: #169 ObserverArt
And the whole discussion makes me wonder how many people believe what they do out of a convenience for simplicity and ease. It may just be simple for some people to be religious or an atheist because they both allow for no further thinking on the subject.
And that is what I cannot do. I cannot stop thinking about it all. And I do believe that is the real human position. We all hedge our bets to a degree. There is always that doubt, if admitted.
I’ve found the atheist position to be extremely hard to cope with sometimes, and very thought-provoking. It’s tough to confront self-deception. It’s hard to watch people tear each other to pieces with knives and bullets and bombs over nothing. It’s awful to see parents grieving over a dead child, invoking angels in heaven, and you can’t blame them one bit. It’s sickening to have a beloved co-worker die of cancer suddenly at age 28 and hear somebody say “well god has a plan”, and you want to say, “What fucking plan involves killing this great young woman, widowing her husband, and leaving her two young children motherless?” (THERE is where I would be “angry at god”, let me tell you).
Thing is, if I die and there is something after death and I’ve lived my whole life wrong, I’ve done it securely and in a self-aware way. Nobody led my by the nose, nobody programmed me, nobody “led me astray” - And if these monsters that people commit such horrors for turn out to be real, I wouldn’t want to be a part of their universe anyway. Pascal’s Wager is a position of cowardice.
re: #87 Decatur Deb
Scott Walker has forfeited his life if you run across him in an accident in a highway-even if the other person is a drug dealer, for the drug dealer provides commerce.
re: #182 Blind Frog Belly White
The thing is, you’re trying to divide a spectrum into categories.
To me, the definition of atheism is simple:
Do you believe there’s a god or gods? If you answer no, you’re an atheist, whether you accept the possibility that you’re wrong, or you don’t.
I used to call myself an agnostic, because I bought into the ‘atheism is faith-based, too!’ argument. But really, it’s not. At least for me. And that’s why I don’t really think it makes sense to have an ‘Atheist Cause’ or an ‘Atheist Movement’, because you don’t group people according to what they don’t believe in.
Unless you’re using that grouping in order to decide who gets thrown into the concentration camp.
re: #188 Eric The Fruit Bat
Scott Walker has forfeited his life if you run across him in an accident in a highway-even if the other person is a drug dealer, for the drug dealer provides commerce.
I would never harm Scott Walker but if I’m pulling people into my lifeboat, I have standards.
heh
Cuz the men wouldn't stop to ask for directions. https://t.co/MXVPUXbKyd
— HGTomato (@HGTomato) August 9, 2015
BREAKING VIDEO: Is there a woman on Mars? WATCH THE VIDEO: http://t.co/M2kYJaVeoa pic.twitter.com/gS3tGKU9nr
— Breaking News Feed (@PzFeed) August 9, 2015
re: #156 Pawn of the Oppressor
NOPE. This is a common misconstruction of atheism.
I don’t believe in the gods professed and described by other human beings. I see no convincing evidence for their existence, and frankly I no longer have any emotional need to believe they exist, either. And let’s be honest, faith is about emotional need, not anything rational - if it was rational, it wouldn’t be faith.
That doesn’t mean that there isn’t some kind of god, force, or creator being. Show me good, repeatable, non-subjective evidence of such a thing, and I’ll believe it exists. It’s that simple.
I don’t have any faith that there is no god, I’m just pretty much 100% secure that nothing like what’s described by the believers exists. It would be “faith” on my part if you showed me repeatable, testable, objectively clear evidence of such a thing existing, and I denied it for emotional reasons.
What makes atheists “angry” is the fifty-mile-long daily list of abuses of human rights, decency, dignity, and intelligence inflicted upon each other all over the world, hour by hour, day by day, non-stop, over what by all rights appears to be literally nothing tangible or worthwhile. THAT is why any socially aware non-believer is going to be “angry at god”. I can’t be angry at anybody’s gods any more than I can be angry at Santa Claus. I am angry at the ideology, eschatology, the distorted reality, and the blinkered way people enslave their dignity and intelligence to these terrible, terrible ideas, and use them as excuses to hurt others.
Now tribalism and the social instinct to “do onto others before they do onto you” - that’s the real mystery to me. Gods are pretty boring by comparison.
I’ve got to get busy for the day, and I certainly am not doing anything else but debating this topic and make no judgments of people based on their stance on this subject. However, the words I put in bold from your comment tell me you too might have just a bit of doubt there is no god. Would that not mean you have faith there is not because you leave room for one in your own words? Again…is that not more an agnostic viewpoint rather than strict atheist?
And with that…good debate. I am going into linger mode and will come back over the afternoon and see what’s going on…Later all!
Real Karma would be a lifeboat with one spot left, and floating in the water are Scott Walker… and a pregnant young single mom-to-be.
re: #174 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
I never said you have to believe anything. I say you already do.
You’re asserting I believe in something: a lack of a god. You’re wrong: I don’t believe in god. I have a lack of faith. It’s not a think I have: it’s something that does not exist.
Further discussion is fruitless unless we agree on this principle.
re: #190 Decatur Deb
“There aren’t enough lifeboats. Not even by half.” As you’d pull Walker in he’d pull you out, drown you and call you a commie for not charging him for the effort.
//
re: #173 Amory Blaine
To which the likely BLM reply would be: “But what have you done for us lately?”
re: #190 Decatur Deb
Bingo. I have a metric shit-ton of people I would not render aid to, and Walker is in the Top 10.
re: #157 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
You’re wrong when you say an atheist lacks faith. An atheist believes there is no God, which is something that cannot be proven, ergo, faith.
It is not faith to not believe in something which cannot be proven. That’s ridiculous. Is it faith to not believe in Odin, or the Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus? If there’s no evidence for it, not believing in it is the rational conclusion.
If you CHOOSE to believe in it, DESPITE the absence of evidence, THAT is faith.
re: #185 Feline Fearless Leader
Where do I claim that atheism is a religion? You should realize by now that there is a difference between belief and religion. I an strictly talking about belief (and faith), which are independent of religion. I have beliefs, I am nominally a Roman Catholic but I haven’t been to church in years. I have belief but not necessarily religion. You keep denying the point I am trying to make without actually addressing it. It’s as if all you hear or see is that somebody who doesn’t agree with you is somehow automatically your enemy. Like I said above, faith isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
re: #196 Dark_Falcon
To which the likely BLM reply would be: “But what have you done for us lately?”
They have been saying that since Netroots.
re: #148 JadeHelmCurious
That’s the thing. It all rests on the shoulders on black folk to make it an issue for white progs to support, done in an acceptable fashion for white progs.
The response to BLM from the white prog community is extremely troubling.
There was another component to this that I wanted to ask people about. From what I understand, when the two women showed up, it seems that the people running the rally pretty much handed the microphones over to them. One of the things I would not know how to do (which is why I’m a software engineer and not in politics) would be to handle this properly. How would you have handled the women showing up at your rally? It’s pretty obvious that the people running the rally didn’t want to be seen as blocking the BLM protest but had no idea how to do that and keep the rally under control.
re: #191 Backwoods_Sleuth
heh
[Embedded content]
It’s a well-established fact that all Martian women look like Emily Bronte on the moors.
re: #186 Belafon
Maybe you’ll have to make the distinction more clear about the difference between someone who believes there is no god, and someone who doesn’t believe in god.
Later, fellow lizards-I’ve pulled a ugly 16-hr shift and I must regenerate.
I’m just going to leave this here. Several of you need to read it.
Iron Chariots, a wiki on apologetics and counter-apologetics
re: #193 Pawn of the Oppressor
Real Karma would be a lifeboat with one spot left , and floating in the water are Scott Walker… and a pregnant young single mom-to-be.
Would you hand him the rope with the anchor tied to it before or after you you pulled the woman aboard?
re: #191 Backwoods_Sleuth
heh
[Embedded content]
Great…someone’s going to say it looks like the Virgin Mary and we’re going to have thousands of Catholics going to Mars to pray beside a rock.
re: #192 ObserverArt
Of course I wonder now and again if there isn’t a god. We are storytelling animals with a survival instinct to assign purpose and meaning to everything. I’ve had plenty of happenings in my life to make me wonder, and it’s hard not to look at the complexity of the universe and not ask that question. But then I remember our place in the universe, by the numbers, and it passes.
Whether or not there is a god does not actually change things in my life or anybody else’s one tiny bit. If you say to me “He’s up there!!!” I say, “So what?” and go about my business. The Golden Rule isn’t rocket science.
re: #207 darthstar
See also: Ray Bradbury.
re: #201 Belafon
In my opinion they should have refused to hand over the microphone. You just can’t let anybody who wants disrupt your event. If they had requested in advance to participate, then maybe I give it serious consideration. I would suggest that future organizers reach out and try to get out in front.
re: #207 darthstar
Great…someone’s going to say it looks like the Virgin Mary and we’re going to have thousands of Catholics going to Mars to pray beside a rock.
Wait until somebody puts Mars up on Ebay.
re: #207 darthstar
Sounds appealing. Is there a downside?
re: #196 Dark_Falcon
To which the likely BLM reply would be: “But what have you done for us lately?”
Standing for civil rights is not something you do for gold stars, to satisfy black folk. You do it because it’s the right thing to do. Walking with MLK 50 years ago was the right thing to do.
Asserting that dead black bodies piling up under the US justice system is the right thing to do.
re: #203 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Maybe you’ll have to make the distinction more clear about the difference between someone who believes there is no god, and someone who doesn’t believe in god.
No, I don’t think you do. I think the difference is between those who claim to KNOW there is no god, and those who simply don’t believe there is one. I’m pretty sure the former are a distinct minority among atheists. Atheism - i.e. believing in no god or gods - is a rational conclusion from the lack of evidence for one.
It’s not that I haven’t been paying close attention to every twitter hashtag trend in recent months, but I just realized people writing BLM aren’t talking about The Bureau of Land Management.
re: #109 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Majority of evidence? There is no evidence at all either for or against the existence of a deity. People (of both sides) mistake perception for evidence. On the side of the believers in God, there is the very existence of the Universe and unexplained phenomena (miracles) which must have been the work of the deity, even though there is no proof. On the atheist side, the is undeniably no direct evidence of the deity’s existence, but lack of evidence does not prove the negative.
Nobody wins.
Not meaning to dis anybody, but its only when one is talking about God that this argument sounds reasonable to people; if applied to any other mythological figure, its obviously ridiculous. No-one would make this argument about Santa Claus or Zeus.
re: #215 darthstar
It’s not that I haven’t been paying close attention to every twitter hashtag trend in recent months, but I just realized people writing BLM aren’t talking about The Bureau of Land Management.
But Cliven Bundy hates both.
re: #203 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
The book on my desk does not believe there is a god. It cannot believe there is no god, because it doesn’t have the ability to believe. To me, that is the default position. Belief is something that humans have because we are pattern matchers, and because we feel that we must apply a reason for things to happen. It is when you choose to believe that opens up the possibility of believing in god.
re: #214 Blind Frog Belly White
No, I don’t think you do. I think the difference is between those who claim to KNOW there is no god, and those who simply don’t believe there is one. I’m pretty sure the former are a distinct minority among atheists. Atheism - i.e. believing in no god or gods - is a rational conclusion from the lack of evidence for one.
That’s up to Belafon, because that’s who’s making the distinction between not believing in god vs believing there is no god. Anybody who claims to KNOW whether or not there is a God is making a big mistake simply because neither can be known.
let’s break it down:
- belief in God (faith)
- no belief in god (lack of faith)
there is no ‘belief in no God’ (faith in no god)
You either have faith or you don’t.
re: #217 Blind Frog Belly White
But Cliven Bundy hates both.
Has Mr. Bundy spoken or written about Black Lives Matter? I ask because I don’t remember him doing so, but that’s possibly just a defective memory on my part.
re: #219 Belafon
The book on your desk is just a meaningless distraction. People are different from books. I don’t know if it’s the result of being social beings who hear about god and religion from the times we’re children, or whether it’s because we have intelligent minds that wonder about who made this mess, it’s inevitable for people to wind up choosing what they want to believe. There is no default position.
So I went to look up belief and faith to help me with my arguments, and I ended up with this:
belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
faith: Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing or a belief not based on proof.
Circular reference. While indirect recursion is cool, unless you have a starting/stopping point, you’re not going to get anywhere.
re: #225 Dark_Falcon
No, but he’s pretty sure of his opinions on “the Negro”.
re: #225 Dark_Falcon
Has Mr. Bundy spoken or written about Black Lives Matter? I ask because I don’t remember him doing so, but that’s possibly just a defective memory on my part.
It’s a joke, Dark.
“Don’t take life so serious, son. It ain’t nohow permanent” - Walt Kelly
ETA: Given that he’s a racist asshole, though, it’s a reasonable assumption.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus, ca. 250 BCE
re: #224 JadeHelmCurious
let’s break it down:
- belief in God (faith)
- no belief in god (lack of faith)there is no ‘belief in no God’ (faith in no god)
You either have faith or you don’t.
Disagree. Belief in god (in any manifestation) is a binary thing. Either you believe a god exists or you don’t. Either way, you don’t know. Either way, you are left with belief, and therefore, faith.
re: #210 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
In my opinion they should have refused to hand over the microphone. You just can’t let anybody who wants disrupt your event. If they had requested in advance to participate, then maybe I give it serious consideration. I would suggest that future organizers reach out and try to get out in front.
But if they’d refused, the activists would have come back with a camera and demanded the mics again. At which point the rally organizers would have had the choice being filmed handing the mics over (but that footage probably wouldn’t go viral) or be filmed refusing to hand the mics over and being called racist for having done so, which surely would have gone viral. And being publicly labeled as a racist is fearful thing, as it should be. Most sensible people would prefer to give up control of their rally than risk the social and career consequences of such a labeling.
re: #227 Belafon
That’s why I said earlier that people have faith whether they like it or not.
re: #231 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
NO. NO. NO. NO. NO.
“Atheism is based on faith”
re: #231 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Disagree. Belief in god (in any manifestation) is a binary thing. Either you believe a god exists or you don’t. Either way, you don’t know. Either way, you are left with belief, and therefore, faith.
Absence of belief is not belief, much as absence of light is not light.
re: #234 Chan Kobun
Steve’s definition of atheism is based on faith, because he needs it to be. The universe, on the other hand, doesn’t give a shit what I think.
re: #235 Blind Frog Belly White
Or like how bald is not a hair color, or not collecting stamps is not a hobby.
re: #228 Chan Kobun
No, but he’s pretty sure of his opinions on “the Negro”.
He is, but what’s with the downing? I asked an honest question, because I thought the man might have said something but I didn’t remember it or hadn’t read it. I was trying not to be a clueless ass.
re: #231 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Disagree. Belief in god (in any manifestation) is a binary thing. Either you believe a god exists or you don’t. Either way, you don’t know. Either way, you are left with belief, and therefore, faith.
The bolded part is correct. Not believing in something is not belief in something or belief in an absence of something. The rest of your statement hinges on proving a negative. That’s not a burden for atheism to make: atheism has nothing to prove.
re: #239 Dark_Falcon
Because, as BFBW pointed out, it was a damn joke. You’re sucking the fun out of the room, man!
re: #180 Feline Fearless Leader
If they’re twisted too tight, do they cause bleeding?
//
From wherever.
And yes, I’m saying that line about fun with full knowledge of the irony of it, so nobody needs to point it out.
re: #239 Dark_Falcon
He is, but what’s with the downing? I asked an honest question, because I thought the man might have said something but I didn’t remember it or hadn’t read it. I was trying not to be a clueless ass.
I would never downding you for it, but the question seemed pedantic, silly, and unnecessary, hence my suggestion to you to take life less seriously.
re: #242 Chan Kobun
Don’t be a Fun Sucker.
I love watching you downding me Steve for disagreeing with you. Not that I control this site, but that seems like a waste of downdings.
re: #249 Belafon
I love watching you downding me Steve for disagreeing with you. Not that I control this site, but that seems like a waste of downdings.
He can use mine…they usually go bad anyway because I never use them.
re: #234 Chan Kobun
re: #235 Blind Frog Belly White
Not sure what either of you are trying to achieve. You seem to be totally ignoring my point, rather than discuss it. Whether or not there is a god is not knowable. Don’t mistake darkness for the absence of light. Stating that there is an absence of light means you know that there is no light, and therefore something that can be proved. I am arguing that the darkness in the room is neither confirmation of the absence of light, or the existence of imperceptible light (like IR). In the same way the presence or absence of god cannot be proved. In that case you are left with no choice to believe whether there is or is not a god. Either way, there is belief.
re: #251 darthstar
He can use mine…they usually go bad anyway because I never use them.
What’s the shelflife of a downding? Do they start to smell after a while, and if you use them then, does it make you sick, like meat that’s gone off?
re: #248 Amory Blaine
That also reminds me of the Simpsons, when Bart becomes Catholic: 
Watch from the 1:25 mark. The two armies are arguing the same thing.
yowser:
Chicago-bound flight diverted after mid-air 10,000-foot drop http://t.co/P5daX14w7v
— NBC News (@NBCNews) August 9, 2015
Hmm my youtube link turned into an external image when I refreshed.
Bernie sanders calling out 18 CEOs that any other politician wouldn't dare not fellate http://t.co/PogjEFlqbG
— Sarah Silverman (@SarahKSilverman) August 9, 2015
re: #240 JadeHelmCurious
The bolded part is correct. Not believing in something is not belief in something or belief in an absence of something. The rest of your statement hinges no proving a negative. That’s not a burden for atheism to make: atheism has nothing to prove.
Have you read a single word of what I wrote? I’m not trying to prove whether there is a god or isn’t. It doesn’t matter. My point is that your idea of whether there is or is not a god (and it doesn’t matter whether you’re an atheist or not) is belief.
re: #252 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Do you believe that a defendant in a criminal trial has to prove his innocence?
re: #252 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Not sure what either of you are trying to achieve. You seem to be totally ignoring my point, rather than discuss it. Whether or not there is a god is not knowable. Don’t mistake darkness for the absence of light. Stating that there is an absence of light means you know that there is no light, and therefore something that can be proved. I am arguing that the darkness in the room is neither confirmation of the absence of light, or the existence of imperceptible light (like IR). In the same way the presence or absence of god cannot be proved. In that case you are left with no choice to believe whether there is or is not a god. Either way, there is belief.
What I’m trying to achieve is to make you aware of a mistake in your argument. There’s a reason I always say ‘god or gods’, because to say “I don’t believe in God” implies that there is a god in whom you do not believe. That seems to be where you’re coming from, the implied existence of a god. What I’m trying to do is get you to see that.
Are you also saying that it’s “belief” to deny the existence of the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus, or the possibility that the universe came into existence just now, already in progress?
re: #260 Chan Kobun
Not for one second. Nice try at distraction, however. A defendant has to prove less than a reasonable doubt, as opposed to the prosecutor having to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
re: #234 Chan Kobun
NO. NO. NO. NO. NO.
“Atheism is based on faith”
“ironchariots dot org” - I thought the only wiki the jesus freaks used was conservapedia…now there’s another bible based wiki to find facts pulled from Pat Roberts’ ass?
Atheism is the absence of faith. Saying “I don’t believe” isn’t saying “I believe” - the insecurity of Xians who feel that everyone secretly believes they’re right but is too scared to admit it is baffling.
re: #256 Backwoods_Sleuth
yowser:
[Embedded content]
If the plane is bound to or from Chicago, then whatever goes wrong is Obama’s fault.
- Cliven Bundy
//
re: #260 Chan Kobun
Do you believe that a defendant in a criminal trial has to prove his innocence?
It’s up to the prosecution to prove his guilt. That’s the law. You can’t prove a negative. Only the proponent can prove his/her case. If you believe god exists, prove it. (Caveat: Can’t use myths and works of fiction as evidence.)
Steve, here’s a link:
Since you’re so convinced of your arguments, don’t waste your time on us. Call these people and present your arguments to them. If you’re right, you’re reaching a worldwide audinece, and if you’re wrong, they’ll explain it a hell of a lot better than I can.
re: #263 darthstar
You, uh… didn’t actually READ anything there, did you?
Iron Chariots is an atheist wiki, and a damn good one, too.
re: #256 Backwoods_Sleuth
yowser:
[Embedded content]
A 10,000 foot drop is no big deal as long as you’re not around 10,000 feet above the ground.
re: #265 darthstar
It’s up to the prosecution to prove his guilt. That’s the law. You can’t prove a negative. Only the proponent can prove his/her case. If you believe god exists, prove it. (Caveat: Can’t use myths and works of fiction as evidence.)
Can I use the United States Postal Service to prove the existence of Santa Claus, and that he’s played by Edmund Gwynn?
re: #261 Blind Frog Belly White
What I’m trying to achieve is to make you aware of a mistake in your argument. There’s a reason I always say ‘god or gods’, because to say “I don’t believe in God” implies that there is a god in whom you do not believe. That seems to be where you’re coming from, the implied existence of a god. What I’m trying to do is get you to see that.
Are you also saying that it’s “belief” to deny the existence of the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus, or the possibility that the universe came into existence just now, already in progress?
Again, distraction. The Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus are characters developed to disguise the things the PEOPLE do, like leaving money under the pillow and toys on Christmas. Do you really want to expect me to believe that these characters are on the same level as whatever created the Universe? Or are you really going to try to say that aliens created the universe/ Either way, you cannot know who did it, and are left with belief.
re: #264 Dark_Falcon
Bill Ayers took off his shoes!
re: #270 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Do you really want to expect me to believe that these characters are on the same level as whatever created the Universe?
Why is it different for the thing you believe? Why does your god get special treatment?
re: #267 Chan Kobun
You, uh… didn’t actually READ anything there, did you?
Iron Chariots is an atheist wiki, and a damn good one, too.
Nope…I saw the bible quote and assumed it was a Xian site. Don’t I look like a fool.
I still disagree that atheism is a faith.
re: #268 darthstar
A 10,000 foot drop is no big deal as long as you’re not around 10,000 feet above the ground.
I’m pretty sure it would be a bit freaky on the plane.
re: #273 darthstar
Nope…I saw the bible quote and assumed it was a Xian site. Don’t I look like a fool.
I still disagree that atheism is a faith.
And so do I.
re: #263 darthstar
“ironchariots dot org” - I thought the only wiki the jesus freaks used was conservapedia…now there’s another bible based wiki to find facts pulled from Pat Roberts’ ass?
Atheism is the absence of faith. Saying “I don’t believe” isn’t saying “I believe” - the insecurity of Xians who feel that everyone secretly believes they’re right but is too scared to admit it is baffling.
Okay…my bad…I misread the header on the site. But the internet is forever so I can’t see the point in deleting my previous post.
I love it when this happens…hey honey, there’s an asshole who’s wrong on the internet…and it’s ME!
re: #274 Belafon
I’m pretty sure it would be a bit freaky on the plane.
I’m pretty sure that everyone on that plane would find themselves wearing brown pants - even if that’s not what they were wearing when they boarded.
On the relationship of knowledge and belief I’d like to propose Graham Greene, Monsignor Quixote, for a somewhat lighter yet serious negotiation of the subject.
re: #259 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Have you read a single word of what I wrote? I’m not trying to prove whether there is a god or isn’t. It doesn’t matter. My point is that your idea of whether there is or is not a god (and it doesn’t matter whether you’re an atheist or not) is belief.
I’ve read every word you wrote. You cannot fathom that people have a lack of a belief. You quantify that as a belief. You are committed to a concept that atheists believe in something, my point is that you are wrong. And you don’t understand what atheism is. You are equating theism and atheism as two belief systems, two faiths. That is categorically wrong.
There’s really nowhere else to go.
re: #165 Iwouldprefernotto
How does Ben Carson have 11% after Thursday night. Did the pollsters make multiple calls to his house and relatives. He was like a cardboard cutout at the debate. (no offense to cardboard).
He is presentable, black and conservative. That is all some republicans need to prove the Right isn’t racist.
re: #276 darthstar
I love it when this happens…hey honey, there’s an asshole who’s wrong on the internet…and it’s ME!
I needed that laugh, thank you.
re: #270 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Again, distraction. The Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus are characters developed to disguise the things the PEOPLE do, like leaving money under the pillow and toys on Christmas. Do you really want to expect me to believe that these characters are on the same level as whatever created the Universe? Or are you really going to try to say that aliens created the universe/ Either way, you cannot know who did it, and are left with belief.
Two points. First, the bolded part, if you think about it, should explain where you’re wrong.
Second, the rest of your post clearly demonstrates that your argument proceeds from the belief that SOMETHING must have created the Universe. That is, it presumes the existence of a god whose existence atheists deny.
re: #265 darthstar
It’s up to the prosecution to prove his guilt. That’s the law. You can’t prove a negative. Only the proponent can prove his/her case. If you believe god exists, prove it. (Caveat: Can’t use myths and works of fiction as evidence.)
I’ll go with this distraction too, for a moment:
We’re not in a court of law!
I’m not trying to prove whether God exists or doesn’t. Tell me where I said you do have to prove it. You clearly haven’t read a word I’ve written. My point is the act of believing either way is an act of faith, because neither side (God or no God) can be proven.
re: #274 Belafon
I’m pretty sure it would be a bit freaky on the plane.
From the article, it sounds like there was a pressurization problem and the pilot did a rapid, but controlled descent to 10,000 ft.
Airline spokesman Jarek Beem noted that it is standard procedure for planes to drop to a 10,000 foot altitude when there is a pressure issue on board.
Edited to add: Click Bait headline.
re: #272 Chan Kobun
Why is it different for the thing you believe? Why does your god get special treatment?
What the hell are you talking about? I don’t give a flying fuck whether you believe in God or don’t believe. My argument is that either way, you believe in something you can’t know.
re: #191 Backwoods_Sleuth
heh
[Embedded content]
People have an amazing knack for spotting figures in landscapes. it came in handy when predatory cats trying to blend into the background were stalking our ancestors.
re: #283 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
My point is the act of believing either way is an act of faith, because neither side (God or no God) can be proven.
No, atheism is not an act of faith. Atheism is a lack of faith.
I don’t know if you’re ever going to get this.
re: #207 darthstar
Great…someone’s going to say it looks like the Virgin Mary and we’re going to have thousands of Catholics going to Mars to pray beside a rock.
That would certainly jump start the fabled manned mission to Mars.
re: #285 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
What the hell are you talking about? I don’t give a flying fuck whether you believe in God or don’t believe. My argument is that either way, you believe in something you can’t know.
I am done with you. You are fundamentally unable to understand that lack of belief is not a belief. You fail on a fundamental level and need to educate yourself in the basics of logic. I am done with you. Do not respond.
Whether or not ‘you can’t know’ is irrelevant. Atheism is a faith only if there is a presumption that there is a god. It puts atheism on the same level as theism. It’s not.
re: #284 Bubblehead II
From the article, it sounds like there was a pressurization problem and the pilot did a rapid, but controlled descent to 10,000 ft.
Airline spokesman Jarek Beem noted that it is standard procedure for planes to drop to a 10,000 foot altitude when there is a pressure issue on board.
Thanks. I saw the title, which is really misleading. It wasn’t a 10K foot drop in the sense of the plane falling from the sky.
I am curious how quickly a plane like that can descend 10K feet in a controlled manner.
re: #231 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Disagree. Belief in god (in any manifestation) is a binary thing. Either you believe a god exists or you don’t. Either way, you don’t know. Either way, you are left with belief, and therefore, faith.
Belief and faith are not strictly synonymous. A Christian will frequently claim their faith is given to them by god so they don’t doubt in the face of little to no evidence. Used colloquially faith can also mean trust based on consistency of experience or evidence. When I stop at a red light I have faith it will turn green because I know how it’s supposed to work and my experience tells me in all but the weirdest of conditions it always has.
You’re using faith to mean belief based on less than 100% certainty. The idea that any belief that has any uncertainty is faith makes the definition of the word overly broad and meaningless and allows easy equivocation.
re: #282 Blind Frog Belly White
Two points. First, the bolded part, if you think about it, should explain where you’re wrong.
Second, the rest of your post clearly demonstrates that your argument proceeds from the belief that SOMETHING must have created the Universe. That is, it presumes the existence of a god whose existence atheists deny.
First, you didn’t actually explain how the bolded part explains how I’m wrong. If you can’t explain it, maybe you should rethink your premise.
The second part of my post, including whether or not my comments suggest some sort of bias, is just the act of somebody ignoring 95% o what I already said and trying to find a nothingburger. Maybe I should try typing slowly:
You can’t prove whether God exists or doesn’t exist. Therefore you can’t know. That means you are left to BELIEVE whether God exists or not. And whether you like it or not, believing is an act of faith.
re: #291 Belafon
Thanks. I saw the title, which is really misleading. It wasn’t a 10K foot drop in the sense of the plane falling from the sky.
I am curious how quickly a plane like that can descend 10K feet in a controlled manner.
I would hazard a guess of pretty damn fast if the needed. But in this case it would appear it took them about 5 min to descend.
From comment section at the link.
You’re right. According to the radar track on flightaware.com, the flight dropped from 32,000 ft to 10,000 ft in about five minutes.
re: #262 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Not for one second. Nice try at distraction, however. A defendant has to prove less than a reasonable doubt, as opposed to the prosecutor having to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
As a lawyer, I can tell you you are wrong. A defendant doesn’t have to prove anything, and doesn’t have to put even a scintilla of evidence into the record of a criminal trial in the US, if the prosecution fails to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.
re: #289 Chan Kobun
. Do not respond.
How about you just ignore any response? As if you can just command someone on the internet not to respond…that’s a good one.
re: #293 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
You can’t prove whether God exists or doesn’t exist. Therefore you can’t know.
Doesn’t. Fucking. Matter. This isn’t a he said/she said.
This is the rationalization of Ken Hamm: you weren’t there so you can’t know. It’s an assumption based on a premise.
There is a default position. I think that’s why this concept freaks some theists the fuck out.
re: #270 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Again, distraction. The Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus are characters developed to disguise the things the PEOPLE do, like leaving money under the pillow and toys on Christmas.
And that is different from religion how?
Do you really want to expect me to believe that these characters are on the same level as whatever created the Universe? Or are you really going to try to say that aliens created the universe/ Either way, you cannot know who did it, and are left with belief.
That seems to presuppose that something created the universe.
re: #297 aagcobb
As a lawyer, I can tell you you are wrong. A defendant doesn’t have to prove anything, and doesn’t have to put even a scintilla of evidence into the record of a criminal trial in the US, if the prosecution fails to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.
YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!
re: #301 JadeHelmCurious
YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!
Well obviously the best line of defense is to browbeat the “real killer” into confessing on the stand, just like Tom Cruise or Perry Mason.//
I believe in something that is not supernatural.
I call it God, but that is probably not the right word.
Great Spirit?
Higher Power?
Grand Unifying Mathematical Equation?
“That than which nothing greater can be conceived”?
Trees?
Love?
HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA
*wipes eyes*
HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA
Trump's boundless narcissism typified by this doozy on MTP: “it's very hard for [women] to attack me on looks, because I'm so good looking.”
— Eli Stokols (@EliStokols) August 9, 2015
re: #293 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
First, you didn’t actually explain how the bolded part explains how I’m wrong. If you can’t explain it, maybe you should rethink your premise.
The second part of my post, including whether or not my comments suggest some sort of bias, is just the act of somebody ignoring 95% o what I already said and trying to find a nothingburger. Maybe I should try typing slowly:
You can’t prove whether God exists or doesn’t exist. Therefore you can’t know. That means you are left to BELIEVE whether God exists or not. And whether you like it or not, believing is an act of faith.
That’s where you’re wrong. Belief is not faith. You’re equivocating between two uses. One is evidence based and equals trust in consistency the other is belief in something despite lack of evidence. There is no way to test for a god unless we use the traits & actions of it given to us by theists. When we do look at physical events that have been researched & tested we find they contradict the most commonly attributed actions claimed by theists. That is negative evidence (evidence for some other explanation than that specific god) for a god. It isn’t certainty, but nothing in our knowledge is based on 100% certainty.
Faith as used by theists is a belief in a god despite any negative evidence, yet in their arguments they force the meaning to include any and all less than 100% beliefs.
Atheists have no advantage over believers when it comes to unresolved issues of understanding their position. A lot of believers never really go beyond what they’re taught in grade school, which probably accounts for a lot of people who think Jesus (or Allah, or whoever) expects them to kick ass on his behalf. In the same way, a lot of atheists stop their analysis as soon as they come to the conclusion that they’ll believe that there isn’t a God. I’ve seen it before and I see it here that some people don’t want to be associated with faith.
Many reject as anathema the simple possibility that they may actually believe (or have faith) in something (that there is no God).
Whatever anybody believes is their business. I would never try to change it. I’m not trying to convince atheists that there is a god. I’m just saying that whether they like it or not, they believe in something, simply because it cannot be known.
The atheism is a faith because is atheists believe in something, just not God (or whatever) is a Jesuit argument. I’ve heard it from those educated by Jesuits, anyway.
I don’t buy it either.
re: #307 I Stand With Planned Parenthood
Don’t take my word for it, but I’d wager dollars to dogshits that it predates the Jesuits.
re: #303 I Stand With Planned Parenthood
I believe in something that is not supernatural.
I call it God, but that is probably not the right word.
Great Spirit?
Higher Power?
Grand Unifying Mathematical Equation?
“That than which nothing greater can be conceived”?
Trees?
Love?
Great Architect of the Universe?
re: #304 Backwoods_Sleuth
HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA
*wipes eyes*HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA
[Embedded content]
Trump is what happens to a person who has too much money and can surround himself with sycophants who only tell him what he wants to hear,
Oh, we’re having the belief/unbelief argument again today? Okay…
*slowly backs out of room, dives for the door*
Oh #Florida! Actual headline: “Nursing center patient goes to bathroom, finds snake in underpants.” http://t.co/POl8I4NOBf
— Craig Pittman (@craigtimes) August 9, 2015
re: #300 aagcobb
“And that is different from religion how”
I already said how it was different from religion, but I’m getting used to people ignoring others’ arguments. It’s different because the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus are characters that do what the parents actually do: put money under the pillow and toys under the Christmas Tree.
And that thing about aliens is actually a specific response to the comparison of those two characters to a deity, in the sense that they did what is unseen, like creating the world. That was not something I introduced to the discussion.
That’s what happens when you use weak analogies, the whole discussion goes screwy.
.@AliceDreger @LSJNews So you going to live blog this one?
— Bubblehead II (@BubbleheadII) August 9, 2015
re: #306 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Atheists have no advantage over believers when it comes to unresolved issues of understanding their position. A lot of believers never really go beyond what they’re taught in grade school, which probably accounts for a lot of people who think Jesus (or Allah, or whoever) expects them to kick ass on his behalf. In the same way, a lot of atheists stop their analysis as soon as they come to the conclusion that they’ll believe that there isn’t a God. I’ve seen it before and I see it here that some people don’t want to be associated with faith.
Many reject as anathema the simple possibility that they may actually believe (or have faith) in something (that there is no God).
Whatever anybody believes is their business. I would never try to change it. I’m not trying to convince atheists that there is a god. I’m just saying that whether they like it or not, they believe in something, simply because it cannot be known.
You might as well tell me you’re praying for me, it reeks of condescension. The fact that you see this as a point of advantage/disadvantage belies the truth of the matter: equating theism and atheism puts them on the same level and thereby the same intellectual foundation for all further discussion. That we’re all operating from the same starting point of a faith.
Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way. Atheism is not faith no matter how much you wish it to be: it’s a lack of faith. As in, zero. Nothing.
The very terms account for this: thesim, or a-theism. As in the alternate, which is none.
What does atheism believe in? Atheism doesn’t believe in.
re: #307 I Stand With Planned Parenthood
The atheism is a faith because is atheists believe in something, just not God (or whatever) is a Jesuit argument. I’ve heard it from those educated by Jesuits, anyway.
I don’t buy it either.
Fine, if you don’t buy it. Explain why. Put it into words. Because if you can’t then do you know what that means? You believe in something!
That’s where a lot of these faith denying discussions break down. A lot of people can’t put into words why they reject the opposite, which is kind of amusing for people who want to deny they have faith.
GOP Meltdown Watch:
Post-Debate Poll (NBC) Trump 23% Cruz 13% Carson 11% Fiorina 8% Rubio 8% Bush 7% Walker 7% That's quite a 1, 2, 3…
— ian bremmer (@ianbremmer) August 9, 2015
re: #312 CuriousLurker
Oh, we’re having the belief/unbelief argument again today? Okay…
*slowly backs out of room, dives for the door*
I’m just sitting over here in the corner by the door so when we get to the chair throwing stage I can quickly step outside. :-)
re: #317 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Fine, if you don’t buy it. Explain why. Put it into words. Because if you can’t then do you know what that means? You believe in something!
That’s where a lot of these faith denying discussions break down. A lot of people can’t put into words why they reject the opposite, which is kind of amusing for people who want to deny they have faith.
You mistake someone’s ability to articulate a position, belief, and faith.
re: #320 Bubblehead II
I’m staying safely outside, peeking in through the spy window.
Dear GOP candidates,
Could one of you please say or do something stupid, like now?
Thanks,
makeitstop
re: #321 JadeHelmCurious
Well, if you can’t explain it, you’re only left with believing it.
re: #316 JadeHelmCurious
You might as well tell me you’re praying for me, it reeks of condescension. The fact that you see this as a point of advantage/disadvantage belies the truth of the matter: equating theism and atheism puts them on the same level and thereby the same intellectual foundation for all further discussion. That we’re all operating from the same starting point of a faith.
Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way. Atheism is not faith no matter how much you wish it to be: it’s a lack of faith. As in, zero. Nothing.
The very terms account for this: thesim, or a-theism. As in the alternate, which is none.
What does atheism believe in? Atheism doesn’t believe in.
The reason I asked whether people even read a single word I wrote is because I was pretty specific about the binary choice of believing whether there is or is not a God, yet people ran all over the place because of it.
re: #322 CuriousLurker
I’m staying safely outside, peeking in through the spy window.
Probably wise. Waiting to see if Alice is going to live tweet a growing confederate flag protest at the Great Lakes Folk Festival.
re: #283 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
I’ll go with this distraction too, for a moment:
We’re not in a court of law!
I’m not trying to prove whether God exists or doesn’t. Tell me where I said you do have to prove it. You clearly haven’t read a word I’ve written. My point is the act of believing either way is an act of faith, because neither side (God or no God) can be proven.
All I can add to this topic of discussion is trite soundbites that someone may find useful at some point.
1. Matters of faith are not subject to proof. That’s why it’s called faith.
2. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
re: #306 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Again:
Believing in the existence of something for which there is no evidence: Faith.
Not believing in the existence of something for which there is no evidence: Reason.
re: #314 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
“And that is different from religion how”
I already said how it was different from religion, but I’m getting used to people ignoring others’ arguments. It’s different because the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus are characters that do what the parents actually do: put money under the pillow and toys under the Christmas Tree.
And that thing about aliens is actually a specific response to the comparison of those two characters to a deity, in the sense that they did what is unseen, like creating the world. That was not something I introduced to the discussion.
That’s what happens when you use weak analogies, the whole discussion goes screwy.
The inappropriateness of the analogy in your mind is only because you believe in a creator. If you believe no god exists, the analogy is accurate, because the putative creator of the universe/world/life is no more evidenced than the Tooth Fairy and Santa.
The point is it isn’t a faith to disbelieve something that has no evidence & no plausibility given current knowledge. Santa has no evidence nor plausibility. A specific god, such as claimed by organized religions, has no evidence nor plausibility.
If there is any ignoring of arguments, it’s your ignorance of ours.
re: #313 Backwoods_Sleuth
NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE
re: #317 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Fine, if you don’t buy it. Explain why. Put it into words. Because if you can’t then do you know what that means? You believe in something!
That’s where a lot of these faith denying discussions break down. A lot of people can’t put into words why they reject the opposite, which is kind of amusing for people who want to deny they have faith.
Some of us can and have. Are you now suggesting our arguments are wrong because not 100% of us can articulate them to your satisfaction?
re: #324 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Well, if you can’t explain it, you’re only left with believing it.
No True Atheist…
re: #329 b_sharp
The inappropriateness of the analogy in your mind is only because you believe in a creator. If you believe no god exists, the analogy is accurate, because the putative creator of the universe/world/life is no more evidenced than the Tooth Fairy and Santa.
The point is it isn’t a faith to disbelieve something that has no evidence & no plausibility given current knowledge. Santa has no evidence nor plausibility. A specific god, such as claimed by organized religions, has no evidence nor plausibility.
If there is any ignoring of arguments, it’s your ignorance of ours.
I’d suggest also ignorance of his own, in the sense that though his argument clearly starts from the presumption of the existence of a God, he doesn’t seem to grasp that.
re: #324 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Well, if you can’t explain it, you’re only left with believing it.
And you’re going to what, ignore those of us who can articulate it? Are we just left with your incredibly broad and useless definition of faith?
re: #325 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
The reason I asked whether people even read a single word I wrote is because I was pretty specific about the binary choice of believing whether there is or is not a God, yet people ran all over the place because of it.
Did you read my responses or just scroll by.
re: #328 Blind Frog Belly White
No kidding, but there is no evidence to prove the existence or non-existence of god. Argument in favor of existence, the universe. Arguments against: nobody has seen god. either way, the question remains unresolved. People choose whichever way they want, but without knowledge.
re: #336 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
No kidding, but there is no evidence to prove the existence or non-existence of god. Argument in favor of existence, the universe. Arguments against: nobody has seen god. either way, the question remains unresolved. People choose whichever way they want, but without knowledge.
Nope.
re: #331 b_sharp
Some of us can and have. Are you now suggesting our arguments are wrong because not 100% of us can articulate them to your satisfaction?
Show me where I said anybody is wrong. My simple argument is that in the absence of knowledge, there is belief. Other people went apeshit.
Newt Gingrich: “Since none of us seem to understand what the Trump phenomenon really is, it is hard to know.” http://t.co/e3IeeobRZR
— Taegan Goddard (@politicalwire) August 9, 2015
Hint: it's fueled by the same people who liked it when you called Obama the “food-stamp president.” https://t.co/0Xa3D9R09a
— Jeff Smith (@JeffSmithMO) August 9, 2015
re: #335 b_sharp
It’s tricky because I’m taking to several different people at the same time. Give me a sec.
re: #317 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Fine, if you don’t buy it. Explain why. Put it into words. Because if you can’t then do you know what that means? You believe in something!
That’s where a lot of these faith denying discussions break down. A lot of people can’t put into words why they reject the opposite, which is kind of amusing for people who want to deny they have faith.
Here, let me put it into words:
When there is no evidence that something exists, the rational conclusion is that it does not exist. There is no evidence of the existence of unicorns, centaurs, sprites, fairies, gods, phlogiston, Easter Bunnies, Titans, satyrs, or nymphs. It is not an act of faith to presume they do not exist.
Just wanted to jump back in and mention I was using the word “faith” in a non-religious way when I originally said an atheist had faith in the belief there was no god.
Both faith and belief many times automatically fall to the religious use of words. In this debate (argument for others) I was using them both in a non-religious way. See the bolded definitions of the words below.
faith (fāth)
n.
1.
a. Belief in God or in a set of religious doctrines.
b. A set of religious doctrines; a body of dogma: adhered to the Muslim faith.
c. often Faith Christianity Secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God’s will viewed as a theological virtue.
2. Confident or unquestioning belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one’s supporters; refused to break faith with his friends.
- - - -
be*lief (bĭ-lᄿ′)
n.
1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.
What can I say…I like words and word play. I hope you all understand where I was coming from in these usages. I certainly am not out to prove any one right or wrong about anything.
re: #325 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
The reason I asked whether people even read a single word I wrote is because I was pretty specific about the binary choice of believing whether there is or is not a God, yet people ran all over the place because of it.
I understand your argument. I’ve heard it before. For you to believe your argument is a good one you have to play semantic games with the word faith and you do it to bring a belief based on evidence pointing away from a god down to the same level as a belief in a god based on a rejection of any evidence against that belief.
re: #342 makeitstop
Did not.
Did too.
Did not.
Did too.
etc.
The whole “the problem isn’t what I said, the problem is how people reacted to it” is very “old LGF”.
re: #335 b_sharp
I sort of addressed the last couple about articulation in 338. Earlier the thing about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy I responded to somebody else, but I would add that a big difference between God and the Tooth Fairy is that
I am the Tooth Fairy
Just in case the kids are looking over anybody’s shoulder
re: #327 sagehen
All I can add to this topic of discussion is trite soundbites that someone may find useful at some point.
1. Matters of faith are not subject to proof. That’s why it’s called faith.
2. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Your #2 is the reason Santa & Tooth Fairy were brought up. We routinely reject based on lack of evidence if there is no plausibility. We do it with unicorns, leprechauns, Thor, Zeus, Chtuhlu, and even orbiting giant invisible tea cups.
Even science doesn’t expect 100% proof or disproof.
re: #336 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
No kidding, but there is no evidence to prove the existence or non-existence of god. Argument in favor of existence, the universe. Arguments against: nobody has seen god. either way, the question remains unresolved. People choose whichever way they want, but without knowledge.
The existence of the universe does not presuppose a Creator, or even require one.
[Corrected autocorrect error.]
re: #333 Blind Frog Belly White
I’d suggest also ignorance of his own, in the sense that though his argument clearly starts from the presumption of the existence of a God, he doesn’t seem to grasp that.
I agree. My first sentence.
re: #336 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
No kidding, but there is no evidence to prove the existence or non-existence of god. Argument in favor of existence, the universe. Arguments against: nobody has seen god. either way, the question remains unresolved. People choose whichever way they want, but without knowledge.
Steve, Have you ever heard Steven Hawking’s thinking on where the universe came from and how it could very well have been created without a god? He has a damn good reasoning for his thinking on the subject and to me he can be as convincing in that reasoning as a very religious person can be about theirs.
I close no doors on any viewpoint in this matter. And as stated earlier, I know one of the reason I can’t is because of 12 years of some very strong Catholic teachings that can leave a mark!
re: #338 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
My simple argument is that in the absence of knowledge, there is belief.
Nope. In the absence of knowledge, there can be nothing.
Edit: Tell me what you know about Katanagatari. Don’t google it.
re: #344 b_sharp
I understand your argument. I’ve heard it before. For you to believe your argument is a good one you have to play semantic games with the word faith and you do it to bring a belief based on evidence pointing away from a god down to the same level as a belief in a god based on a rejection of any evidence against that belief.
Okay, so what do you call it when you believe something you can’t prove. Oops, i used the b word. There is a lot of overlap when talking about belief and faith, and it seems your more interested in using the subtle differences to obscure the commonalities. Some people go to great lengths to deny that they either believe in or have faith in a concept.
re: #336 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
No kidding, but there is no evidence to prove the existence or non-existence of god. Argument in favor of existence, the universe. Arguments against: nobody has seen god. either way, the question remains unresolved. People choose whichever way they want, but without knowledge.
And right there, you expose the presumption of the necessity for a creator in your argument.
But that presumption is, itself, faith. There’s no evidence that there needed to be a creator.
re: #336 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
No kidding, but there is no evidence to prove the existence or non-existence of god. Argument in favor of existence, the universe. Arguments against: nobody has seen god. either way, the question remains unresolved. People choose whichever way they want, but without knowledge.
If those are what you believe the arguments boil down to, you haven’t really done much investigation.
Knowledge isn’t binary. Even if the existence of god is binary, our access to knowledge isn’t, it’s probabilistic. That makes your use of the word faith ridiculously broad and argumentatively useless.
re: #352 Belafon
Nope. In the absence of knowledge, there can be nothing.
The absence of knowledge is ignorance (not meant as an insult at all), but that can be remedied if one is willing to take the opportunity to learn.
Canfield. #MikeBrown. pic.twitter.com/vZyZcTA7Zz
— deray mckesson (@deray) August 9, 2015
Resistance. w/ @BreeNewsome and @Nettaaaaaaaa. #Ferguson. pic.twitter.com/g2o2AhvxaN
— deray mckesson (@deray) August 9, 2015
re: #348 b_sharp
Your #2 is the reason Santa & Tooth Fairy were brought up. We routinely reject based on lack of evidence if there is no plausibility. We do it with unicorns, leprechauns, Thor, Zeus, Chtuhlu, and even orbiting giant invisible tea cups.
Even science doesn’t expect 100% proof or disproof.
The reason #2 is spurious is that, like I said before, we are Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairies. There is a big stretch in extrapolating that to insinuate that we are also God.
re: #356 Backwoods_Sleuth
The absence of knowledge is ignorance (not meant as an insult at all), but that can be remedied if one is willing to take the opportunity to learn.
Agree. Just disagreeing with the idea that knowledge and faith are opposites.
I should prolly stay out of this, but I’m gonna add my $0.02 anyway. Despite being a believer, I’m afraid I have to side with the atheists on this one. The Oxford dictionary makes things pretty clear, IMO:
unbelief
1 Lack of religious belief; an absence of faith.
1.1 another term for disbelief.
[From the Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary]
lack of belief, or the state of not believing, especially in God, a religion, etc.
disbelief
1 Inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real: Laura shook her head in disbelief
1.1 Lack of faith in something:
Unbelief is what atheists engage in. It’s pretty clear to me that it’s the opposite of belief. (Counting on being rescued by Charles posting a new thread now that I’ve jumped in, LOL.)
re: #360 CuriousLurker
(Counting on being rescued by Charles posting a new thread now that I’ve jumped in, LOL.)
Bingo—right on schedule!
re: #355 b_sharp
If those are what you believe the arguments boil down to, you haven’t really done much investigation.
Knowledge isn’t binary. Even if the existence of god is binary, our access to knowledge isn’t, it’s probabilistic. That makes your use of the word faith ridiculously broad and argumentatively useless.
b_sharp (others)…do you understand my use of the words belief and faith with regards to atheists as explained in my #343?
I thought I’d ask you because you seem to be aware of the words both can carry different meanings. I’d just like to know that my using them in the way I did was and is understandable.
re: #338 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Show me where I said anybody is wrong. My simple argument is that in the absence of knowledge, there is belief. Other people went apeshit.
No, you said belief is the same as faith in an attempt to put theist faith and atheist belief at the same level, completely ignoring that no knowledge is 100% and atheist belief is based on contra evidence for an identified god.
re: #342 makeitstop
Did not.
Did too.
Did not.
Did too.
etc.
Look closer. There are a few different arguments in there.
re: #347 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
I sort of addressed the last couple about articulation in 338. Earlier the thing about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy I responded to somebody else, but I would add that a big difference between God and the Tooth Fairy is that
[Embedded content]
Just in case the kids are looking over anybody’s shoulder
Yes, that’s part of the evidence against the Tooth Fairy, the fact that we understand the use of the fiction. That doesn’t affect the argument if we use Zeus, Shiva, Odin or any other entity previously considered real that we now reject as real.
re: #361 CuriousLurker
Bingo—right on schedule!
The old thread is still getting more traffic than the new one
re: #368 b_sharp
Yes, that’s part of the evidence against the Tooth Fairy, the fact that we understand the use of the fiction. That doesn’t affect the argument if we use Zeus, Shiva, Odin or any other entity previously considered real that we now reject as real.
I think the deal with Zeus is that He was sort of like the head of the celestial Khardashians. I don’t think it was so much that people rejected that he was real, I think they just found a different way to worship.
re: #353 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Okay, so what do you call it when you believe something you can’t prove. Oops, i used the b word. There is a lot of overlap when talking about belief and faith, and it seems your more interested in using the subtle differences to obscure the commonalities. Some people go to great lengths to deny that they either believe in or have faith in a concept.
I have no problem using the word faith or belief in regards to my atheism as long as there is a recognition that my atheism is based on different standards than a theist’s faith/belief and you aren’t attempting to make them equivalent. They aren’t.
My belief, although not based on 100% certainty, is based on the scientific evidence that shows the stories in the various modern religions to be completely implausible. A theist’s belief is based on accepting as true those very things that science is gradually showing to be implausible.
Your attempt to claim those two types of belief are equivalent is where the problem lies.
re: #356 Backwoods_Sleuth
The absence of knowledge is ignorance (not meant as an insult at all), but that can be remedied if one is willing to take the opportunity to learn.
He means some things are impossible to know 100%, such as the existence of a god, not that people just haven’t tried to learn.
re: #372 b_sharp
He means some things are impossible to know 100%, such as the existence of a god, not that people just haven’t tried to learn.
I know, I was putting another aspect to it.
re: #356 Backwoods_Sleuth
The absence of knowledge is ignorance (not meant as an insult at all), but that can be remedied if one is willing to take the opportunity to learn.
The existence of god isn’t 100% knowable because it simply isn’t testable & no test is 100% certain.
re: #358 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
The reason #2 is spurious is that, like I said before, we are Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairies. There is a big stretch in extrapolating that to insinuate that we are also God.
Ok, ignore Santa & the Tooth Fairy & consider Zeus.
re: #317 SteveMcGaziBolaGate
Fine, if you don’t buy it. Explain why. Put it into words. Because if you can’t then do you know what that means? You believe in something!
That’s where a lot of these faith denying discussions break down. A lot of people can’t put into words why they reject the opposite, which is kind of amusing for people who want to deny they have faith.
I don’t buy it because those who teach it are not unbiased. It conveniently proves what they believe. And, beyond that, I really don’t give a shit.
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