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1 Romantic Heretic  Nov 7, 2014 6:29:32am

Oh fer Chrissakes.

Why does America always, always have to be at war?

I haven’t had this song in my head for years, but here it is again.

Youtube Video

2 Skip Intro  Nov 7, 2014 7:21:32am

re: #1 Romantic Heretic

Now you know we don’t call these things war anymore, not since Korea.

These are “mop-up” operations, that just happen to get thousands of our people killed or maimed, all at tremendous expense to the treasury.

They go on forever because that’s what the war contractors demand.

Far from being the far left ideologue Fox News portrays him as, Obama is nothing more than what used to be a moderate Republican, before they became extinct. That’s one of the things that really pisses off what used to be his base.

3 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 7, 2014 7:55:29am

re: #2 Skip Intro

re: #1 Romantic Heretic

So I take it you guys figure we should leave it to others to succeed or fail at removing ISIS from the areas they control?

4 Skip Intro  Nov 7, 2014 8:21:41am

re: #3 Indy GOP Refugee

You can take it that maybe some other countries should get their asses involved for a change, or they could pay us for doing it for them.

All I ever hear from the GOP is how bad the debt is, yet there’s always more money to borrow for another war because no one ever cares about the national debt or deficit when it comes to war, even though the way we fight them isn’t the profit making operation as it once was.

So yeah, I think it’s time others stepped up and took their turn at bat. As the GOP keeps reminding us, we’re broke.

Of course, we can always further gut the social programs and the funds for infrastructure repair and maintenance to pay for another splendid little adventure. Maybe sell off a couple of National Parks to Disney or maybe the Chinese. But at some point we run out of things to sell, the infrastructure starts to fail, and the people whose benefits have been cut to nothing start finding other ways to survive, most likely by crime.

That seems to be the big GOP plan to me, and it’s a horrible one unless your name is Koch.

5 Randall Gross  Nov 7, 2014 8:26:34am

I think we need to add some support - advisory, logistics, intel, etc. but not get too involved with real funding beyond that. If we don’t the coalitions over there fall apart. Do you help the Kurds since Turkey sure won’t?

6 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 7, 2014 9:21:23am

re: #5 Randall Gross

My pov dismisses the very recent very local GOP in historical terms. Big pic-We need to understand the Iraq borders make no sense, are not really welcome and the wrong people (the west) set them. Iraq need not look like the Iraq of the last decades. The Kurds just might get a country, Sunni and Shia may carve out autonomous regions. It’s all fine with me. Not our job.

At the same time it makes little sense to base future policy on anger at the Iraq invasion, the GOP, GWB and throw in corporate conspiracy theory to boot. I wonder if progressives have looked into or perhaps forgotten the opportunities that were lost or ignored in the 1930’s as atrocities began to mount. ISIS is a rising dangerous power there. Ignore this over past policies at our later peril.

7 Decatur Deb  Nov 7, 2014 12:47:02pm

“Obama asks congress for…” That’s pretty much the short path to bupkis.

8 Romantic Heretic  Nov 7, 2014 1:52:46pm

re: #3 Indy GOP Refugee

So I take it you guys figure we should leave it to others to succeed or fail at removing ISIS from the areas they control?

I don’t think it is any of the world’s business what happens inside the borders of Iraq or the Caliphate or whatever. They are not even vaguely an existential threat to us here in the West.

I’m sorry as hell for the people living there but it’s their problem to solve. If NGOs like Medicine sans Frontieres or OXFAM or Feed The Children send help I’ll support them. But I don’t support us being ‘policemen of the world’.

If we are, where are we going to stop? China’s hardly a beacon of democracy and freedom. Do we go to war with them?

9 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 7, 2014 4:04:08pm

re: #8 Romantic Heretic

Lil ad absurdum there on China. We have ways we already encouraged them to behave to some effect. Wanna really hit their policy? Quit buying their cheap clothes, toys, and jewelry. Boom a half $billion votes aimed right at their policy.

Show me a similar lever we have to hit ISIS with.

It’s not great logic to argue that we would be obligated everywhere because we would choose to act occasionally to stop atrocities, the rise of a dangerous power or intervene in a genocide. I never understood that logic.

How come I never see anyone complain about Clinton NATO and the Serbs in the Balkans? Probably because he is not a Bush. Or much smarter because he never invaded.

But your argument against us helping against ISIS would have extended back tio opposing Clinton and NATO back then? It’;s already very well established we are not on some solo adventure attacking ISIS. Ask the Turks, the Kurds, the Iraqis some reginal heads who are begging for more help.

Some say we view the world through a prism. This time it appears to be a Bush circular polarizer. “Bush invaded so we won’t/can’t/mustn’t/etc help Iraq militarily ever ever again!” I understand the anger. I’m just not there. Our policy IMHO is far more properly a forward looking policy not one stuck in the rear view mirror standing on the gas in reverse. I’m just not one to ignore atrocities or globally distant reality over partisan politics or dollars.

10 Romantic Heretic  Nov 7, 2014 6:52:24pm

re: #9 Indy GOP Refugee

I was going to reply in detail, but why bother? You think the US can solve all the world’s problems. I disagree.

Maybe it’s because I’m Canadian and being from a ‘middle power’ I understand there’s only so much we can do and we have to pick our fights carefully.

And if my China example is absurd, may I ask just where the US should not interfere? At what point does enforcing its idea of ‘good’ on a nation pass that of utility or morality.

So I’ll just recite one of my favourite mantras and leave it at that.

To be angered by evil is to partake of it, stupid. - Phrases of Import and Salvation, Chapter IX, The Book of Universal Truths and Other Humorous Anecdotes

11 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 7, 2014 8:29:59pm

re: #10 Romantic Heretic

This is way too polemic over practical. I never asserted the US can solve the worlds problems. Keep in mind I chose the limiting phrase “lil”. A little, Phrased in a way to lighten the moment. To reduce the natural tension between points of view.

The US already interfered in China. As did Europe. We instigated trade, and negotiated terms withing our agreements. Our public interfered with dollars. We made them richer now than most of the rest of history.

How is it a call for a forward looking policy was burdened with the desires of those we both reject?


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