Should the GOP Double Down on Social Conservatism?

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Politics • Wed Nov 5, 2008 at 1:05 pm PST • Views: 1,156

Some interesting comments from David Frum, as the GOP soul-searching and finger-pointing begins: Republicans face fraught choice between two roads to revival.

A generation ago, Republicans dominated among college graduates. In 1984 and 1988, Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush won states like California, Pennsylvania and Connecticut – states that have been “blue” for a generation. (America’s least educated state, West Virginia, went for Michael Dukakis in 1988.)

Those days are long gone. Since 1988, Democrats have become more conservative on economics – and Republicans have become more conservative on social issues.

College-educated Americans have come to believe that their money is safe with Democrats – but that their values are under threat from Republicans. And there are more and more of these college-educated Americans all the time.

So the question for the GOP is: Will it pursue them? To do so will involve painful change, on issues ranging from the environment to abortion. And it will involve potentially even more painful changes of style and tone: toward a future that is less overtly religious, less negligent with policy, and less polarizing on social issues. That’s a future that leaves little room for Sarah Palin – but the only hope for a Republican recovery.

This argument makes sense to us, and we’ve been holding forth in our comments on this very topic. If the GOP decides to go in the Bobby Jindal direction (fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights), it will be committing political suicide. As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win.

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1466 comments

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1 NY Nana  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:08:14pm

Today the Stock Market had it's largest post-election drop in history..over 400 points.

Explain that, Obama.

2 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:08:15pm

I don't trust Frum's opinion on anything right now ...

3 Cognito  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:08:55pm
If the GOP decides to go in the Bobby Jindal direction (fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights), it will be committing political suicide.

Yes, although if it loses the people who believe in those things, the death will be equally swift.

I think two things are needed:

1) Failure on the part of the Democrats. You can't beat success. And,

2) A strong new personality to unite the different aspects of the conservative side.

Without those things, none of the other matters I think.

4 imploder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:09:28pm

Yeah, I don't know about that. He's basically saying be more like a Democrat. The argument that Democrats are more trusted with people's wallet is fixing to do a 180 here in about six months.

5 Old Tanker  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:09:32pm

I don't buy that line. Reagan was a social conservative when those votes were won...AND a fiscal conservative. Social conservatism has been watered down since the 80's and got us nothing...

6 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:09:34pm

Soc-cons are killing us in elections by alienating independent moderates AND the fiscal-cons. This has got to stop, and it won't unless republicans get involved in the party and tell these folks to keep their social agenda programs at church because it's not the business in which government is supposed to be addressing.

7 CIA Reject  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:09:45pm

re: #1 NY Nana

Today the Stock Market had it's largest post-election drop in history..over 400 points.

Explain that, Obama.

Well, obviously the market is racist!

/Just testing the new standard response.

8 uncle_monkey  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:10:06pm

Well, we've already seen what happens when they act like democrats. Most people will just go ahead and vote for the real democrat.

9 Antilles  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:10:15pm

I agree with Charles. I feel the Republicans are too socially-conservative already. If they move any further to the right then I won't be able to support them anymore.

10 Max Darkside  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:10:35pm

Double down? Don't they have to be conservative first?

11 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:10:44pm

David Frum has turned out to be an idiot

12 Old Tanker  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:11:07pm

And since when have Democrats been more fiscally conservative?

13 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:11:26pm

re: #4 imploder

Sorry- I'm a fiscal conservative who wants the government to leave me the f*ck alone. I don't like moral busybodies on the left and I don't like them on the right either.

14 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:11:26pm

re: #1 NY Nana

Today the Stock Market had it's largest post-election drop in history..over 400 points.

Explain that, Obama.

I believe this is self answering with a slight change in punctuation.

Explain that. Obama.

15 imploder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:12:05pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

Soc-cons are killing us in elections by alienating independent moderates AND the fiscal-cons. This has got to stop, and it won't unless republicans get involved in the party and tell these folks to keep their social agenda programs at church because it's not the business in which government is supposed to be addressing.

"Social Cons" are people like me. I believe owning guns, I believe in law and order, I'm not a fan of gay marriage although it isn't one of my driving concerns.

Let me ask you this. What is a conservative if not a social conservative?

16 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:12:15pm

Most things that social conservatives oppose can be argued politically without "resorting to religion" as a reason.

17 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:12:16pm

I don't see how the democrats who currently hold power are in any way, shape or form, fiscal convervatives..or more fiscally conservative from the 1980's.

18 Ayatrollah  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:12:20pm

I don't totally agree. The lefts core values Gay Marriage were rejected yesterday. Obama's platform of "change and hope" won out, whatever that means.

19 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:12:22pm

Conservatism has so much less to do with religion and so much more to do with Freedom for the individual to prosper

20 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:12:24pm

OT again: The Blame Game...

I've read many comments about how our next POTUS's failure to deliver on his promises will be blamed on the "failed Bush Doctrine" policies that Barry is stuck cleaning up. More of the same, Bush takes the blame.

There may be some of that, sure. But I don't think that's how it's gonna play out. Mark my words, the blame Barry's failures will be laid squarely at the feet of "We The People".

It will be said that it is the fault of the American people that Barry has failed at this or that, because despite electing him, we are still too bitter, clingy, ignorant, hateful, uneducated, ill-informed, racist, ad infinitum. It will be a negative adjective factory of divisiveness from "The Uniter".

You heard it here first, folks. (Unless someone else has beat me to posting the same observation.)

21 Bob Dillon  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:12:27pm

re: #1 NY Nana

Today the Stock Market had it's largest post-election drop in history..over 400 points.

Explain that, Obama.

It's just an pre-adjustment to my forthcoming tax increases. Didn't you get the word?

22 Maximu§  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:12:29pm

I am so glad LGF is back to normal again.

23 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:12:41pm

I have to say I agree with this as well...

I have generally said that I consider myself to be a fiscal conservative, foreign policy "conservative" (if you can say that -- I believe in the GWOT, is that really a conservative thing though?), but socially more liberal.

The reason for that last point is that as much as conservatives want smaller government and less interference, they simultaneously want the government to make certain social decisions for everyone.

While I agree in principle with social conservatism, I just cannot support legislation of it... social conservatism should be TAUGHT, not imposed.

Hopefully that makes sense.

24 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:12:43pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

Soc-cons are killing us in elections by alienating independent moderates AND the fiscal-cons. This has got to stop, and it won't unless republicans get involved in the party and tell these folks to keep their social agenda programs at church because it's not the business in which government is supposed to be addressing.

I agree. But that is going to be hard to do. In the first 7 comments on this board, yours is the only one that makes this point. All the others stick with the "your morals is my problem" mode in one way or another.

Even when the answer to a problem stares someone in their face, they will baulk at the truth.

25 livefreeor die  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:13:00pm

OT-Here's today's fun elementary school assignment. A teacher in my son's elementary school assigned his class as homework making a 3-D model of Obama. It's some template he got off the internet that involves cutting and pasting. It actually looks like that Obama waffle box people were calling racist this summer. It was visit-your-kid's-school week and one of the mothers showed it to us as we were leaving. She was shocked. Another mother, who voted for Obama, said it was inappropriate for homework and was upset.

Now, it's not my kid's teacher but my son will be done with the school this year. Do I lodge a complaint with the superintendant?

26 Max Darkside  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:13:24pm

And the dollar lost ground against both the Euro and Yen.

27 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:13:41pm

Charles, respectfully, I don't see this election as a referendum on social conservatism. John McCain is not a social conservative. Admittedly, Sarah Palin is, but McCain didn't lose because of her.

I agree with you, however, that "Jindalism" is a recipe for instant suicide. If the GOP goes that route, they'll lose me too, and I'll spend my effort trying to figure out how an independent candidate can win.

28 danshelb  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:13:57pm

I kind of disagree with this premise. The election wasn't lost due to "Social Conservatism", rather Economic Liberalism. We allowed the Dems to, quite masterfully, paint the housing collapse and economic problems resulting from it, on "8 years of Bush policies" and not taking a stand on the Bailout. I believe we should be more Social Liberatarian (aka I don't care who or what you sleep with provided they/it are of age and consenting) and get back to the roots of Economically Conservative principles. We better end the welfare state soon, before a real majority of voters are completely on the public dole.

29 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:14:00pm

re: #16 bosforus

Most things that social conservatives oppose can be argued politically without "resorting to religion" as a reason.

Please elaborate.

30 pious agnostic  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:14:09pm
fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights

If the Republicans could walk these down, I wouldn't mind one bit. I agree that they alienate otherwise friendly citizens, and to no good end.

Only one is an actual life-and-death moral issue, and I've struck it from the list.

31 NY Nana  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:14:14pm

re: #7 CIA Reject

Well, obviously the market is racist!

/Just testing the new standard response.

Works for me.

32 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:14:23pm

re: #19 LSD

Conservatism has so much less to do with religion and so much more to do with Freedom for the individual to prosper

Not according to the "moral majority" styled conservative. "Get thee that dildo out of thee bedroom."

33 Semper Gumbi  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:14:25pm

Dinged the post down (first time ever)because it is from Frum - who I regard as a conservative elitist who cannot get past his dislike of Palin - who represents the rank and file of the party, IMO.

While I can agree with Charles description of Bobby Jindal fitting the mold Frum describes, I don't see it in Palin. She holds many of those conservative beliefs, but she is also on record as saying the Government should not force it on the people. I believe Governor Palin and others like her are the face and future of the Republican Party.

34 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:14:36pm

re: #3 Cognito

Yes, although if it loses the people who believe in those things, the death will be equally swift.

I think two things are needed:

1) Failure on the part of the Democrats. You can't beat success. And,

2) A strong new personality to unite the different aspects of the conservative side.

Without those things, none of the other matters I think.

I wonder -- is it worth it to want a failure in the Obama administration so that a Republican can win? Or is it better to hope that the Obama administration manages to do well for the sake of the country.

I hope the US, and the world, can survive a failure, because... well, because they may damn well have to in the coming years.

35 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:14:46pm

Nothing like another emotionally-charged thread. Fifty years ago, both Republicans and Democrats were mostly social conservatives. Now Republicans are supposed to abandon social conservatism, like the Dems have? I have a hard time with that, personally. We'll become like Europe; either somewhat liberal, or really liberal.

36 Max Darkside  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:15:05pm

I vote for Constitutional Conservatism... Limit gov't. Cut it and with that, the need to tax and with both, receive increases in freedom.

37 NY Nana  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:15:09pm

re: #14 CyanSnowHawk

I believe this is self answering with a slight change in punctuation.

Explain that. Obama.

Why didn't I think of that? Excellent point.

38 J.S.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:15:16pm

I agree with Frum -- if you want Hussein in office for 8 years, definitely go with the Social Conservatism.

39 Ojoe  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:15:22pm

This is not an age of faith,

maybe there will be another one sometime.

Actually I think there will be, and I probably will not live to see it.

So the GOP must do some changing.

Remember that Lincoln, though "full of natural religion", did not belong to any church.

40 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:15:38pm

Back in 1996 the GOP struck a lot of voters as too socially conservative. It hurt Dole badly in his race for President. I think that perception is no longer as widely held. So it's time to build on that, not go back the other way.

I think the GOP should recast itself as the party of reform, TR-style. "Reform" also happens to be the buzzword of most of the younger rising stars of the GOP. Campaign on political ethics and restraining Washington and Big Government. And do it better than ever before.

41 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:15:50pm

Conservatism = Religious Zealotry is a HUGE canard, and Frum seems to be pushing that canard like a complete hack.

42 imploder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:15:54pm

"Morals" are what laws and based on and values are derived from. To suggest totally eviscerating "morals" from the public square is to suggest taking everything off the table.

The democrats are now all wound up about going into the financial markets to apply their "morals" to that situation.

Morals are where idealogies grow from.

Protecting Israel is an activity based inherently on a moral judgement.

43 Max Darkside  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:16:08pm

Conservatism would establish there shall be only 100 laws. You want a new one? Delete an existing one.

44 jill e  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:16:09pm

I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born. ~Ronald Reagan, quoted in New York Times, 22 September 1980

45 livefreeor die  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:16:37pm

re: #40 arethusa

Back in 1996 the GOP struck a lot of voters as too socially conservative. It hurt Dole badly in his race for President. I think that perception is no longer as widely held. So it's time to build on that, not go back the other way.

I think the GOP should recast itself as the party of reform, TR-style. "Reform" also happens to be the buzzword of most of the younger rising stars of the GOP. Campaign on political ethics and restraining Washington and Big Government. And do it better than ever before.

This seems like the best approach to me. This is what will ring most true.

46 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:16:40pm

re: #25 livefreeor die

OT-Here's today's fun elementary school assignment. A teacher in my son's elementary school assigned his class as homework making a 3-D model of Obama. It's some template he got off the internet that involves cutting and pasting. It actually looks like that Obama waffle box people were calling racist this summer. It was visit-your-kid's-school week and one of the mothers showed it to us as we were leaving. She was shocked. Another mother, who voted for Obama, said it was inappropriate for homework and was upset.

Now, it's not my kid's teacher but my son will be done with the school this year. Do I lodge a complaint with the superintendant?

Complain about what? An Obama assignment, or a racist Obama assignmet. He is going to be president, what is wrong with teaching kids that? I remember doing such things at school all through my childhood.

47 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:16:55pm

re: #32 Walter L. Newton

Wrong.

The conservative tent just happen to be a big diverse tent

48 Lizard by the Bay  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:16:55pm

If the Republican Party does a hard-right to Jesusland, with a platform of teaching evolution, locking up girls who have abortions, bringing back censorship "decency boards", etc. then you will soon find them in the History books along with the chapter on Whigs.

49 Vaak  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:17:16pm

I'm not sure this was a referendum on social conservatism. I think it was a referendum on the baseless and spineless republican party.
If it was social conservatism that brought this problem on then in Florida and California, where Obama did win, banning gay marriage wouldn't have happened.
Republicans wouldn't have lost so bad if they weren't idiots. McCain could've gone after Obama for friendships, could've done the hard work that bloggers did to find Obama's monumental flaws, but they didn't.

50 Dianna  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:17:27pm

I am of seven different minds on this, so I will mostly sit this one out. I look forward to the discussion, however.

51 Dan G.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:17:34pm

re: #29 Sharmuta

He means hiding one's agenda...;)

As an independent I completely agree with this sentiment. Have your religions, just keep them the fuck out of my government!

And for those stating that this means that the republicans must act like democrats... that is a false dichotomy. One can endorse individual rights, limited government, strong defense etc... while remaining secular (in policy) without being a leftist.

52 JAL3  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:17:57pm

Except that social conservatism seemed to win on the ballot whenever its actually tried...even in CA.

53 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:17:58pm

re: #48 Lizard by the Bay

If the Republican Party does a hard-right to Jesusland, with a platform of teaching evolution, locking up girls who have abortions, bringing back censorship "decency boards", etc. then you will soon find them in the History books along with the chapter on Whigs.

Won't happen. It just won't.

54 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:18:08pm

re: #41 LSD

Conservatism = Religious Zealotry is a HUGE canard, and Frum seems to be pushing that canard like a complete hack.

And Palin was picked because why? She was picked to placate the social conservatives, there is no way you can deny that fact. And, you can see that there was some blowback about that FROM CONSERVATIVES after the new wore off.

55 NY Nana  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:18:19pm

re: #31 NY Nana

486 points is the final count today. We have nothing invested in the market, but I think everyone has been watching the past few months, and yesterday it seemed it was settling down. I suspect that the early wisdom at that point was a McCain win, and today they are facing cold reality.

56 cliffster  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:18:21pm

We have to be tough.

"Hey guys, we appreciate your support and good strong Christian values overlap with our platform quite a bit, but Christianity doesn't define our platform"

57 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:18:23pm

re: #35 Ward Cleaver

Nothing like another emotionally-charged thread. Fifty years ago, both Republicans and Democrats were mostly social conservatives. Now Republicans are supposed to abandon social conservatism, like the Dems have? I have a hard time with that, personally. We'll become like Europe; either somewhat liberal, or really liberal.

I'm not a believer in legislating morality. The laws should reflect our values, not impose values upon us.

58 livefreeor die  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:18:31pm

re: #46 Creeping Eruption

Complain about what? An Obama assignment, or a racist Obama assignmet. He is going to be president, what is wrong with teaching kids that? I remember doing such things at school all through my childhood.

The teacher would not have had a make a John McCain assignment if McCain had won. He was pushing his own political agenda on the kids. Having the kids research Obama is fine, having them go home and celebrate his victory with a homemade, racist puppet is wrong.

59 looking closely  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:18:40pm

I disagree with the premise that the Democrats are "more" economically conservative or are trending that way. . .they're not, though the Republicans, unfortunately, have become LESS economically conservative, to their great detriment.

It *should* be that the Republicans are the ones the electorate trusts to handle the economy. That its currently the Democrats is probably the most successful Donkey swindle in recent memory.

I do agree with Charles that this issue of the effect of "social conservatism" on the future of the Republican party is absolutely paramount.

In some ways American youth are actually becoming MORE conservative, not less so. Pro-life America is growing, not shrinking. That movie "Juno" (about a pregnant teenager who decides to put her child up for adoption instead of aborting it) is one visible example.

The question is, how successful can future Conservative coalitions be, if the social conservative vote is split from the other two traditional Republican planks of free-market economics, and strong American foreign policy/military posture.

60 OldLineTexan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:18:56pm

re: #54 Walter L. Newton

And Palin was picked because why? She was picked to placate the social conservatives, there is no way you can deny that fact. And, you can see that there was some blowback about that FROM CONSERVATIVES after the new wore off.

I fail to see where Palin is a religious zealot.

61 CofactorMatrix  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:19:01pm

I am sympathetic to the position that the government can't legislate morality. We outlaw murder, not because it's evil (which, of course it is), but because we risk complete chaos if we don't act to curtail it. We outlaw theft because the financial system degenerates without strong property rights, not because theft is immoral (which, again, it is). Loyalty at the point of a gun is no loyalty at all, and likewise, morality at the point of a gun is not morality.

So let's wind back government's role, especially the federal government, to maintaining social order, property rights, and the military, and that's it. For local government, it may be a bit different: If certain localities want to legislate the color of your front door and you don't like it, you can still move to a place where the rules are more to your liking. But how can we escape crushing, oppressive taxation, and attempts to legislate what we say, think and believe when that form of enslavement comes from the federal government? Not everybody has the option to leave the country.

62 faraway  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:19:07pm

Frum is not reliable.

Dems gained power by running social conservatives for Congress.

So, you are suggesting we give them the economy and social conservatism.

What's left? Science nerds?

You better think this through.

63 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:19:15pm

re: #49 Vaak

I'm not sure this was a referendum on social conservatism. I think it was a referendum on the baseless and spineless republican party.
If it was social conservatism that brought this problem on then in Florida and California, where Obama did win, banning gay marriage wouldn't have happened.
Republicans wouldn't have lost so bad if they weren't idiots. McCain could've gone after Obama for friendships, could've done the hard work that bloggers did to find Obama's monumental flaws, but they didn't.

Sadly, most Democrats wouldn't give a damn if Obama and Pol Pot had been pen pals.

64 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:19:16pm

re: #5 Old Tanker

I don't buy that line. Reagan was a social conservative when those votes were won...AND a fiscal conservative. Social conservatism has been watered down since the 80's and got us nothing...

Look farther back than Reagan. How was Nixon on the social side? What about Eisenhower?
How are the socially moderate doing in the House? the Senate?

I don't buy that the base will abandon a candidate over a single issue, especially if the competition has comparable beliefs on that issue, or is otherwise repugnant.

65 Dammits Dad  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:19:22pm

Frum is a weenie. Our next candidate needs to be like the dems in only one way. The only time you reach across the aisle is to slap them. Bi-partisonship my backside, use the dems version.

66 imploder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:19:32pm

re: #26 Max Darkside

And the dollar lost ground against both the Euro and Yen.

Damnit! I knew I should've bought that saddle last week (I live in Germany).

The way the media was talking, you'd think the stock market would have jumped 5,000 points at the O's victory.

67 Moe Katz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:19:34pm

re: #50 Dianna

I am of seven different minds on this, so I will mostly sit this one out. I look forward to the discussion, however.

Your MPD may be partly because you accurately perceive the question as multidimensional and not subject to being broken down cleanly along the one dichotomy of socially conservative versus socially not-conservative or what-have-you. A lot of it goes issue by issue, IMHO.

68 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:19:37pm

On Topic: I see that so-called 'social conservatives' have managed to ban gay marriage in three states (due to their supposed large numbers or something), yet at the same time could not manage to push the Republican ticket in two of those three states.

I do not think as many 'social cons' support the GOP or conservative values as some seem to think.

70 Cognito  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:19:43pm

re: #34 Joo-LiZ

I wonder -- is it worth it to want a failure in the Obama administration so that a Republican can win? Or is it better to hope that the Obama administration manages to do well for the sake of the country.

I hope the US, and the world, can survive a failure, because... well, because they may damn well have to in the coming years.

No, no -- that wasn't my point. I love to see Barack Obama put Iraq on its feet and turn around the economy. I'm all for it. I don't care if the Purple People Eaters Party brings success -- success is good.

My point was that if he does those things, the Republican party should sit back and enjoy the view, because there's no arguing against success.

71 Peacekeeper  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:19:56pm

This is just blame games. Now we're blaming Ned Flanders. FLANDERS!

72 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:20:05pm

re: #51 Dan G.

I agree with you- I was just hoping to get more people to elaborate on these ideas.

73 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:20:14pm

Please note: I didn't say and I don't believe that social conservatism is the ONLY reason why this election went to Obama. But it certainly was a big part of it.

74 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:20:25pm
75 Catttt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:20:50pm

Woah. Mr. Frum is barking up the wrong tree.

This election was not about social conservatism. It was about money.

When you separate out the various social issues, there are still a lot of social conservatives, depending on the issue. These people, however, are going to go with the pocketbook issues over their social agendas.

Example - California, hardly a conservative bastion, voted to turn down gay marriage, and they also voted for Obama. Conservative vote on gay marriage, pocketbook vote on Obama.

Senator McCain is a fine man, but he is NOT a conservative. Voting for or against him in this year proves nothing anyway, from a social issues perspective. Voting for Obama doesn't really either, because again, it was a pocketbook vote.

Finally, there are still some large bodies of religious groups in this country that will have a heck of a time voting if two liberals on social issues (say, two people who want a federal law protecting abortion or gay marriage) run for POTUS. Although they might not pick a candidate on the social issues, not having a choice of someone in their ballpark on them might freak them out.

76 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:20:52pm

re: #34 Joo-LiZ

I wonder -- is it worth it to want a failure in the Obama administration so that a Republican can win? Or is it better to hope that the Obama administration manages to do well for the sake of the country.

It is far, far better to hope that the Obama administration manages to do well for the sake of the country.

77 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:20:59pm

re: #38 J.S.

I agree with Frum -- if you want Hussein in office for 8 years, definitely go with the Social Conservatism.

In my opinion, and I voiced this on the last thread, BHO is all but guaranteed re-election in 2012, because everything he does will be reported as a success, and all criticism of him will be rejected as either racist or just inconsistent with the facts that appeared in the newspaper.

If I were the RNC, I might not even bother running a candidate in 2012.

78 NY Nana  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:21:00pm

re: #33 Semper Gumbi

He is a disgrace to his Mum, Barbara Frum zt"l...

79 Dan G.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:21:08pm

re: #68 Slumbering Behemoth

Keen observation.

80 AnotherRightWingConspirator  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:21:10pm

"...fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights".

Charles, you are using perjorative terms here that are not helpful. Try evangelical Christian, pro-life, respectful of traditional marriage as a unique institution. Same concepts, less inflammatory, and sounds a lot like Ronald Reagan.

81 faraway  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:21:19pm

re: #54 Walter L. Newton

And Palin was picked because why? She was picked to placate the social conservatives, there is no way you can deny that fact. And, you can see that there was some blowback about that FROM CONSERVATIVES after the new wore off.

You mean the 5 or 6 real hard core conservatives like Peggy, Frum and co?

82 livefreeor die  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:21:43pm

The last 8 years have been one massive anti-Repubican commercial. We could have run with the same platform as Barry and we would still have lost. The liberals always want their way, their person, and nothing else.

83 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:21:53pm

re: #29 Sharmuta

Please elaborate.


Abortion comes to mind, "the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". That would have to start with defining when life begins. Heartbeat, conception, something like that.

84 Peacekeeper  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:21:53pm

George Bush is the reason this election went south. So of course an ex speech writer for Bush is best qualified to lecture us.

85 Spirit93  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:22:04pm
As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win.

What a load of Hooey.

86 straitcircle  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:22:05pm

I think the issue of this campaign was made clear by the New York Times headline last night: This election broke the color line. The demography of America is changing. It has little to do with policy issues any longer. It is about white rule becoming equaled among the minorities who now will vie for power-sharing. Obama was a community organizer who got elected to political office. His lawyer skills show social organization skills, not economic like Clinton or strategic like these Bushs'. Obama was elected like the NYTimes had stated. It was about color of the skin.

87 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:22:14pm

re: #79 Dan G.

Thanks, it doesn't happen often. Maybe I should by a lotto ticket today. :)

88 Dianna  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:22:20pm

re: #5 Old Tanker

I don't buy that line. Reagan was a social conservative when those votes were won...AND a fiscal conservative. Social conservatism has been watered down since the 80's and got us nothing...

But he wasn't. Reagan, as governor in California, signed into law one of the most liberal abortion laws to that time.

Reagan wasn't exactly a fiscal conservative, just less enamored of confiscatory taxes than the Democrats were.

Frankly, the issues Reagan got right were that the government isn't here to be our mommy, and it is here as the defender of the country. The government shouldn't be telling us how to live, or what our morals should be. The government should not be stealing our money to give to others who haven't earned it.

Social conservatives can - when they get out of hand - behave as oppressively as the extreme social liberals. Both need to be reined in, firmly.

The courts should not be deciding on family structure or abortion. Those are decisions for the people themselves.

89 Learned Mother of Zion  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:22:42pm

re: #48 Lizard by the Bay

If the Republican Party does a hard-right to Jesusland, with a platform of teaching evolution, locking up girls who have abortions, bringing back censorship "decency boards", etc. then you will soon find them in the History books along with the chapter on Whigs.

Can you name the Republican who has advocated locking up girls who have abortions?

As for the "decency boards," it was Schumer who compared conservative talk radio to "pornography."

90 livefreeor die  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:22:56pm

Have to run-drum lesson and swim practice chauffering duties await.

91 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:22:59pm

re: #60 OldLineTexan

I fail to see where Palin is a religious zealot.

DId I say she was a "religious zealot?" No! I said she was picked to placate the social conservatives in the Repub party. And once that wing of the party saw she was not a female version of Jerry Fawell, then the shine wore off.

92 DistantThunder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:23:08pm

Dole was a dud - boring and uninspiring.

I think the focus should be on education. I think John Mccain was right when he said it is the next great civil rights issue to take kids out of these schools with 70% dropout rates and give them a chance in a privately run charter schools.

Check out this video on drew Carey's Reason.TV site, about a parent revolt at a failing Watts high school. One day a mom showed up and said it was just like a "zoo." This fight should be the tip of our spear.

Unlocked

93 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:23:12pm

re: #59 looking closely

I disagree with the premise that the Democrats are "more" economically conservative or are trending that way. . .they're not, though the Republicans, unfortunately, have become LESS economically conservative, to their great detriment.

Clinton hijacked Newt Gingrich's legacy. So the dems take credit for everything that he - not Bill - did.

94 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:23:32pm

re: #32 Walter L. Newton

Not according to the "moral majority" styled conservative. "Get thee that dildo out of thee bedroom."

ROFL, then cleaning the keyboard and monitor. Thanks Walter.

95 Dianna  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:23:32pm

re: #52 JAL3

Except that social conservatism seemed to win on the ballot whenever its actually tried...even in CA.

Well, not really. I don't have a dog in the gay marriage fight. I do, however, have a dog I care a lot about in the judicial activism fight!

96 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:23:46pm

Said I was taking the day off. I lied. Sorry.

My office is in the same building with the Social Security Office.

The line wasn't any shorter.

97 moonstone  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:23:47pm

Why has no one thought of this before? All conservatives need to do in the future is become liberals and then we can win elections. David Frum is a frakkin genius.

Liberals did not win this election; McCain lost it.

98 DistantThunder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:23:53pm

re: #43 Max Darkside

Conservatism would establish there shall be only 100 laws. You want a new one? Delete an existing one.

God managed with just 10 - utterly elegant.

99 Quad Mocha Matti  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:23:54pm

re: #65 Dammits Dad

Frum is a weenie. Our next candidate needs to be like the dems in only one way. The only time you reach across the aisle is to slap them. Bi-partisonship my backside, use the dems version.

This echoes my thoughts/comment made on another thread last evening, when the sting of defeat was at its zenith.

100 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:23:57pm
101 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:24:04pm

re: #59 looking closely

The question is, how successful can future Conservative coalitions be, if the social conservative vote is split from the other two traditional Republican planks of free-market economics, and strong American foreign policy/military posture.

I think there are many moderates and independents who would take a more serious approach to the republican party if it weren't for the moral busybodies. The soc-cons can stay, imo, so long as they realize we're going to stick to keeping religion out of politics. The concerns of soc-cons are better worked at through their various church groups, not political parties.

102 CIA Reject  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:24:14pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

Soc-cons are killing us in elections by alienating independent moderates AND the fiscal-cons. This has got to stop, and it won't unless republicans get involved in the party and tell these folks to keep their social agenda programs at church because it's not the business in which government is supposed to be addressing.

I basically agree with you, but unfortunately the government inserted itself into addressing these issues via Roe thus opening the entire issue in the legislative arena. I think the solution is somebody with a Reagan-like persona who is a solid fiscal conservative who can also convince the social conservatives that their agenda is best served by maintaining a low profile and working behind the scenes. I agree that this will require so-cons to largely STFU in campaigns, but not to cease being activists for their cause.

It is a delicate balance that Reagan pulled off beautifully- hopefully there is somebody with the same skills out there...

103 looking closely  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:24:25pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

Soc-cons are killing us in elections by alienating independent moderates AND the fiscal-cons. This has got to stop, and it won't unless republicans get involved in the party and tell these folks to keep their social agenda programs at church because it's not the business in which government is supposed to be addressing.

Without disagreeing with your premise, at the heart of this is that social Conservatives (you could use the term "religious right") make up a huge part of the Republican base. Disaffecting them won't make them go away. They won't go away (or vote Dem), but they'll either stay home or turn to religious rightists (like Huckabee), and fracture the party. That's a recipe for guaranteed electoral losses on the national, and in many cases State levels.

I think Conservatives need an ideological outreach. Something a little more appealing to young people and moderates, to convey the ideas and benefits of free market economies and the global benefit of a strong American military (which is there really to ensure the function of global free markets).

This particular website is a good example, actually.

104 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:24:28pm

re: #54 Walter L. Newton

And Palin was picked because why? She was picked to placate the social conservatives, ...

She was picked because she has a banner RECORD of REFORM and going against Corruption on both sides. Cutting spending. Cutting Taxes. Her religion was well down the line...

105 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:24:49pm

An ideal conservative candidate if asked what's you platform on abortion? "Abortion is not part of my platform." Period.

If asked about platform on gay rights? "Special rights for anyone is not part of my platform." Period.

If asked about how will your personal faith affect your political decisions? "He has instructed me not to answer that question," and wink.

If pressured, tell 'em, "I really can't make it any simpler for you."

106 Russkilitlover  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:24:54pm

re: #25 livefreeor die

OT-Here's today's fun elementary school assignment. A teacher in my son's elementary school assigned his class as homework making a 3-D model of Obama. It's some template he got off the internet that involves cutting and pasting. It actually looks like that Obama waffle box people were calling racist this summer. It was visit-your-kid's-school week and one of the mothers showed it to us as we were leaving. She was shocked. Another mother, who voted for Obama, said it was inappropriate for homework and was upset.

Now, it's not my kid's teacher but my son will be done with the school this year. Do I lodge a complaint with the superintendant?

YES! We are a democracy and a representative government, we don't idol worship our leaders. The OFFICE is bigger than the MAN.

107 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:24:58pm
(fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights)

seemingly OT, but I think NOT!

What if the GOP re-worked itself as the party of character -- personal integrity and accountability, respect for the individual, honesty and openness in government, et cetera?

It'd have a long row to hoe, because it would have to clean house, but what if it DID clean house?

($5 'll get ya $50 that the GOP could do it easier than the Democratic Party as a whole. Joe L. would know how to do it, but they won't listen to him.)

All things being equal, what would be the outcome in elections down the road?

/just askin'

108 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:25:43pm

re: #28 danshelb

The election wasn't lost due to "Social Conservatism", rather Economic Liberalism.

I don't see it that way. I don't think this election was about any political values at all. I submit that this election was transformative, in that it was the first U.S. presidential election that wasn't about any political issues at all. It wasn't even a popularity contest. It was a marketing contest. It was about manufacturing and selling charisma and idol-worship. You can see this in details as small as graphic design. Obama's logo, his use of those Orwellian cult-of-personality posters with one-word slogans in sans-serif fonts... we've never seen that before. Obama's team ran his campaign like a rock band's tour, not like a political campaign. The media constructed a narrative and hammered it mercilessly, the way a record label pushes a new album, not the way that a campaign office pushes a political message.

109 Peacekeeper  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:25:44pm

We recently had a Republican Senator having gay sex in an airport toilet and that's about as socially liberal as you can get. Yet it didn't help his career now did it?

110 daddycrack  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:25:45pm

re: #57 Sharmuta

I completely agree with you. But how do you keep the other extreme from imposing their views in law against the country's values?

111 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:25:57pm

re: #73 Charles

Please note: I didn't say and I don't believe that social conservatism is the ONLY reason why this election went to Obama. But it certainly was a big part of it.

Of course it helped that Obama had the MSM to run interference for him, and that he turned down matching funds, allowing him to raise and spend all the money that he wanted to. My prediction is that McCain will be the last presidential candidate to accept matching funds. The amount of money spent on future presidential campaigns will skyrocket as a result.

112 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:26:11pm

re: #94 CyanSnowHawk

ROFL, then cleaning the keyboard and monitor. Thanks Walter.

Thank you. Personally, I keep one in the living room, but that's only for guests.

113 DistantThunder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:26:35pm

re: #101 Sharmuta

I think there are many moderates and independents who would take a more serious approach to the republican party if it weren't for the moral busybodies. The soc-cons can stay, imo, so long as they realize we're going to stick to keeping religion out of politics. The concerns of soc-cons are better worked at through their various church groups, not political parties.

I'd be happy to keep them out of the political parties if they can be addressed in ballot measures. That works for me.

114 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:26:55pm
115 emrainey  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:27:09pm

Perhaps the fiscal conservatives and the socially liberal types in the republican side should get together in a some sort of third party like, I don't know, libertarians? If religious Republicans actually stopped slapping their bible long enough to realize that they are alienating the rest of the Republican base it would be a true miracle. I won't hold my breath. Perhaps it's time to splinter away from the religious types and focus on *actual* small government whose sole purpose is the protection of liberty. Barry Goldwater is back?

116 seekeroftruth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:27:11pm

I am really tired of the Washington elites telling everyone what to do. They are so removed from the average American. I think that was Sara Palin's biggest appeal - she was just one of us. It was the elites on the Republican side, Frum, Parker, Noonan, Krauthammer, etc that joined in with the Koz kids, DNC, and the media to trash her. I really resent their behavior. I'd wouldn't trust any of the elites to have the best interest of the American people or of the R party as their motive.

117 leereyno  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:27:18pm

As a hard-core anti leftist, the social conservatives have always struck me as a bit loopy. They're all fired up about things that either don't matter, or that are tangential to the things that do matter.

The left is callously using the gay desire for equal status in society as a means of undermining society. As soon as the gays have served their purpose they'll be discarded. When social conservatives get all bent out of shape over the "homosexual agenda" they make themselves look like idiots and nutjobs. There is no "homosexual agenda," merely a leftist one that happens to include using homosexuality as a means of destroying the concept of family and commitment. Homosexuality, when monogamous and responsible, is not a bad thing. It isn't something that interests me personally, but the benefit of living in a free country is that other people have the right to choose to live as they see fit, provided those choices don't harm others.

This is just one example of an over-arching problem. Social conservatives are simply not speaking the language that the average American understands anymore. They're too stuck on Christianity as their idea of what a normal person is supposed to be. This nation has many christians, but not everyone is a christian, and not all christians are social conservatives.

There is a wealth of wisdom to be found in many of the values of social conservatives. But that wisdom must be marketed, and that means framing it in a way that the intended recipients will accept.

118 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:27:24pm

re: #92 DistantThunder

Dole was a dud - boring and uninspiring.

I think the focus should be on education. I think John Mccain was right when he said it is the next great civil rights issue to take kids out of these schools with 70% dropout rates and give them a chance in a privately run charter schools.

Check out this video on drew Carey's Reason.TV site, about a parent revolt at a failing Watts high school. One day a mom showed up and said it was just like a "zoo." This fight should be the tip of our spear.

Unlocked

But that won't happen now. The NEA has got their guy in the White House.

119 debutaunt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:27:25pm

re: #22 Maximu§

I am so glad LGF is back to normal again.

My name is debutaunt and I'm addicted to LGF.

120 apocolypse yesterday  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:27:36pm

Not sure I agree that social conservatism killed the Republicans.

Marriage vote passed in California, Arizona, and Florida. The dems won two of the three states.

What killed the Republicans is that they have not acted like fiscal conservatives -- spending out of control, earmarks, nationalization of the banks

121 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:27:37pm

I actually disagree with this being an election on the repudiation of social conservatism.

It was the economy. Period. End stop.

The GOP message on the economy was a muddled mess. McCain didn't help matters, and the GOP spending spree was an abdication of the supposed GOP and conservative idea of fiscal responsibility.

You want to know why people weren't inspired; that's it.

Their choice was a guy who was free spending and had a muddled message and a guy who was free spending and giving away free stuff to all those who wanted hope and change. Hope and change won out, even if the reality is soon to settle in and the buyer's remorse will have many questioning what they just did.

Social conservatives have no where to turn as it is as most of the GOP gives them short shrift. Fiscal conservatives are screwed by everyone - even those who happen to be Democrats. No one in DC is holding the government spending accountable to the taxpayer. No one.

There was no enthusiasm for McCain not because of Palin's presence, but despite of it. McCain did little to engender enthusiasm because of his bend-over-backwards approach to key issues for the GOP. Instead of keeping the line on issues like immigration, McCain tried to go to the left of the left. It didn't work.

The same can be said of the bailout and everything else having to do with spending.

You simply cannot outspend Democrats on the social issues (on national defense, where Democrats absolutely abhor spending anything at all, it's real easy). Democrats will simply complain that you need to spend more to make it work - just watch what's happening with the bailout. The first part of the bailout is deemed insufficient, so they're demanding hundreds of billions more. No idea that it will work, but they're pushing for it anyways. More good money after bad.

You want to know how to fix the GOP - start right there. Enough with the profligate spending. The social conservatives will come around to that position too - because if the government is spending less, it means that they're influencing the personal issues that much less. And in the process, you're going to pick off all that many more people who would rather see their paychecks grow than know that they've got no chance of getting ahead because of high taxes on businesses that stifle economic development.

122 looking closely  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:27:56pm

re: #54 Walter L. Newton

And Palin was picked because why? She was picked to placate the social conservatives, there is no way you can deny that fact. And, you can see that there was some blowback about that FROM CONSERVATIVES after the new wore off.

That's only a small part of it.

Sure, she appeals to Social conservatives. But if that were the main reason for picking her, McCain could have (and would have) simply picked Huckabee, who has even MORE appeal to the Social Conservatives.

Palin also had other strengths. One major one is appeal to women (in general) who were disaffected from Obama's apparent theft of the Democrat nomination from Hilary Clinton.

Palin, is also (by Washington standards) an expert on energy, with considerable experience in energy issues by dint of her work in AK, and that is a push-button issue right now.

Lastly, Palin has a history of fighting the system in Alaska (including her own party), something that has personal appeal to McCain.

123 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:28:20pm

I think Palin was a cynical pick by McCain, to get the fundamentalist Christians aboard his campaign. And it worked.

I believe there were more than a few moderate centrists who might have voted for McCain, but were turned off by Palin's Pentecostalism. Hell, I don't just believe this -- I saw this happen at LGF. More than a few readers who were pre-disposed to vote for McCain had their minds changed when Sarah Palin became the veep nominee.

I backed Palin up, because as far as I know she never really pushed the social con agenda. But it's pretty hard to deny that's why she was brought onboard.

124 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:28:21pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

Soc-cons are killing us in elections by alienating independent moderates AND the fiscal-cons. This has got to stop, and it won't unless republicans get involved in the party and tell these folks to keep their social agenda programs at church because it's not the business in which government is supposed to be addressing.

Right on.

And for folks pinning their hopes on Palin... She's a dead-ender unless she gets new schtick. "Fix And Destroy" worked like a charm, and she isn't helping it any with her own presentation. I know conservative Texans - Texans - who started to find the "hockey mom" thing annoying, and wanted to hear her talk policy.

Abandoning social conservatism doesn't mean becoming more like Democrats. It means dumping the ID-n'-Jeezus extremists who piss off people who would otherwise vote Republican (and there are plenty of them).

The Dems make headway because they put gun control on the back burner. Repubs need to do the same with some of their pet issues.

125 Mike in Georgia  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:28:25pm

Methinks John spent a little to much time patting himself
on the back for running a really clean campaign. I have little
interest in the purity of a lost battle.

126 Dan G.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:28:28pm

The republicans gained a lot of support post-Clinton based on what their central message was... Limited government, no-national healtcare, individual responsiblity, strong military, etc... The initial message (disseminated to the country) didn't include abortion etc... (while that might have been a central tenent of the agenda). It was a classic bait-and-switch and those who fell for it (i.e. people like me) are pissed.

Previously, weren't we sold the idea that Kerry was a evil socialist? Didn't many vote for Bush for that reason (in addition foreign policy)? Didn't Bush just begin the nationalization of the banking and insurance industries? Hasn't Bush dawdled on handling Iran and Saudi Arabia (the latter he flat out gave nuclear technology to)? You see the contradictions? Don't you feel disrespected?

127 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:28:31pm

There were 3 Presidential and 1 Vice-presidential dabates.

0 questions on the pressing social issues were asked.

How did Social issues play into this election at all? I don't get it.

128 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:28:31pm

re: #116 seekeroftruth

I am really tired of the Washington elites telling everyone what to do. They are so removed from the average American. I think that was Sara Palin's biggest appeal - she was just one of us. It was the elites on the Republican side, Frum, Parker, Noonan, Krauthammer, etc that joined in with the Koz kids, DNC, and the media to trash her. I really resent their behavior. I'd wouldn't trust any of the elites to have the best interest of the American people or of the R party as their motive.

Here, here.

129 DistantThunder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:28:59pm

re: #108 Last Mohican

I don't see it that way. I don't think this election was about any political values at all. I submit that this election was transformative, in that it was the first U.S. presidential election that wasn't about any political issues at all. It wasn't even a popularity contest. It was a marketing contest. It was about manufacturing and selling charisma and idol-worship. You can see this in details as small as graphic design. Obama's logo, his use of those Orwellian cult-of-personality posters with one-word slogans in sans-serif fonts... we've never seen that before. Obama's team ran his campaign like a rock band's tour, not like a political campaign. The media constructed a narrative and hammered it mercilessly, the way a record label pushes a new album, not the way that a campaign office pushes a political message.

Yes. Bought and paid for by whom...we don't really know all the people since it includes Micky and Mini.

130 Kragar  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:29:02pm

A GOP ticket which focuses on a smaller "hands off" approach to government and supporting strong national defense, trade and borders is a winner. Anything else doesnt stand a chance.

131 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:29:34pm

re: #84 Peacekeeper

George Bush is the reason this election went south. So of course an ex speech writer for Bush is best qualified to lecture us.

The economy stupid is the reason this election went south.

/not directed at you Peacekeeper.

132 Catttt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:30:01pm

Frankly, on social issues, both sides of each issue could do with being a little less strident. I personally thought that Mayor Giulianni did really well with the social issues - the idea is to address the well-being of the people, not to make them obey one's personal moral imperative.

Education, options, choices - they have a huge impact. People listen, think, learn, teach.

Whining, chiding, belittling - they have people running away.

Also, this holier than thou thing will NEVER be a winner.

133 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:30:01pm

Social conservatism seems to me to work better on the state level than on the national level (various governors, like Jindal and Palin, amendments on social issues as in CA and FL). On the national level, there are basically two issues that remain constants: national security and the economy. The GOP is strong on the first, not so much on the second. We need a new economic message, and to find a charismatic Republican with a good message on reform and an economic vision that s/he can express as clearly as Reagan could his.

134 OldLineTexan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:30:07pm

re: #91 Walter L. Newton

DId I say she was a "religious zealot?" No! I said she was picked to placate the social conservatives in the Repub party. And once that wing of the party saw she was not a female version of Jerry Fawell, then the shine wore off.

It was clearly implied.

Please define social conservative...I'm afraid I might be one, and I don't want to be late for my socially-acceptable stoning.

135 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:30:11pm

I expect the Republicans to revert to pure socially conservative/religious right candidates. They haven't learned their lesson and don't recognize it as a problem. If they run Palin/Jindal next time and Obama is doing a competent job I'll vote Dem. I have no problem with that and it's not an idle threat. It's reality.

136 Moe Katz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:30:11pm

re: #123 Charles


I backed Palin up, because as far as I know she never really pushed the social con agenda. But it's pretty hard to deny that's why she was brought onboard.

I also think you perceived that you were riding a tiger with the lizards themselves.

137 uptight  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:30:14pm

Personal morality is a matter for people's personal lives. Turn it into a political doctrine and and you exclude everyone except evangelicals.

Conservatism is supposed to be about "small government", but when it comes to governing people's personal lives there are some conservatives that want to get positively Orwellian about it.

Not their business.

138 mkelly  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:30:20pm

Lizard by the Bay please get real. No one has ever said anything about locking up girls who have abortion, decency boards etc. However Dems have talked about the fairness doctrine.
Conservatives should value property rights of the individual first and foremost.
Conservatives should champion the constitutional concept that all rights not granted to the government are reserved for the people.
Conservatives should get rid of laws like hate crime laws as those laws go towards thought not actions.
Conservatives should call global warming a falsehood and go for the drill, drill, drill idea.
I do not want to be a liberal light, but a constitutional observant conservative.
This by no means a full list of items that should be championed.

139 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:30:40pm

re: #57 Sharmuta

I'm not a believer in legislating morality. The laws should reflect our values, not impose values upon us.

Those who do not share the "reflected" view will always say the view is being forced upon them (and in all reality it is forced upon them). CA voted against gay marriage, that seems to be the "reflected" view.

140 Dan G.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:30:42pm

re: #103 looking closely

Except that the conservatives did "reach out", they just didn't follow up with those promises of free-markets etc... hence, the blow back.

141 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:30:44pm

re: #104 LSD

She was picked because she has a banner RECORD of REFORM and going against Corruption on both sides. Cutting spending. Cutting Taxes. Her religion was well down the line...

Oh get off it. She was picked because she had the persona of 1) A babe, 2) mom, 3) family values, 4) gun owner, 5) outdoorsy and 6) fertile.

Her leadership abilities we a plus, but it was the "homespun" gal persona that they were marketing.

142 faraway  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:30:54pm

re: #73 Charles

Please note: I didn't say and I don't believe that social conservatism is the ONLY reason why this election went to Obama. But it certainly was a big part of it.

OK. Let's rank it somewhere.

1. Media was corrupt (10%)
2. Bush lacked leadership (which caused his poor poll numbers) (5%)
3. Oprah brought many white females (5%)
4. Folks wanted a black president (5%)
5. McCain is 100 years old and not a great speaker (2%)
6. Stock market tanked in Oct (2%)
7. Obama told poor folks he would give them a refund check ("Obama's gonna pay my mortgage") (1%)

There's 30% margin right there.

Reverse these and its a Palin blowout.

143 Duane  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:31:10pm

The GOP needs some charisma and to get back to its fiscal conservativism. This election showed that big government conservatism does not win elections.

144 OldLineTexan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:31:17pm

re: #115 emrainey

Perhaps the fiscal conservatives and the socially liberal types in the republican side should get together in a some sort of third party like, I don't know, libertarians? If religious Republicans actually stopped slapping their bible long enough to realize that they are alienating the rest of the Republican base it would be a true miracle. I won't hold my breath. Perhaps it's time to splinter away from the religious types and focus on *actual* small government whose sole purpose is the protection of liberty. Barry Goldwater is back?

Forty-five years old and I have only seen a Bible thumped (slapped is a new one on me) ONCE...in church. Where I was. And will admit it. And heard what was said.

/Can I be President now?

145 TexasPatriot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:31:25pm

The republicans are losing becuase they have all but abandoned conservatism, both fiscal and social conservatism. Sarah Palin represents the future of the party. People like Frum are what gace us Obama.

146 DistantThunder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:31:31pm

re: #116 seekeroftruth

I am really tired of the Washington elites telling everyone what to do. They are so removed from the average American. I think that was Sara Palin's biggest appeal - she was just one of us. It was the elites on the Republican side, Frum, Parker, Noonan, Krauthammer, etc that joined in with the Koz kids, DNC, and the media to trash her. I really resent their behavior. I'd wouldn't trust any of the elites to have the best interest of the American people or of the R party as their motive.

Peggy Noonan was calling for Unity today - that like Apple and Microsoft calling for unity - What? We want a marketplace of competetive ideas, definitely not unity.

147 SouthAmericanWay  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:31:32pm

I disagree with your assessment, Charles: this was certainly not a referendum on Social Conservatism - and if it was, Prop 8 in CA, and similar measures in AZ and FLA, showed that Social Conservatism won once again.

148 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:31:43pm

re: #109 Peacekeeper

We recently had a Republican Senator having gay sex in an airport toilet and that's about as socially liberal as you can get. Yet it didn't help his career now did it?

If he had been socially accepted and recognized as a gay man he might have married his gay lover and happily stayed at home.

149 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:31:47pm

re: #32 Walter L. Newton

Not according to the "moral majority" styled conservative. "Get thee that dildo out of thee bedroom."

Keep thee hands off of my dildo! is what I would I would say.

Personally, I am a church going right to lifer, but I also don't think that the gov't should have any say in these matters. No one can force morality on others, your choices are between yourself and your creator (if you believe in one).

As a conservative I say...enforce the laws, protect my country and stay the hell out of my bedroom.

150 J.S.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:31:53pm

re: #77 Last Mohican

but it may be that the MSM will wear itself out (in terms of credibility) -- so that even the most moronic of voters may eventually tire of hearing The Zero's "blessed and wondrous accomplishments" preached to them day in and day out..they could (eventually?) tire of these nostrums. And then turn to the blogs? (Obama could also very easily turn the U.S. economy into a catastrophic disaster -- look at what the stock market is doing right now -- what if Obama continues with his bashing of "Corporate America" and "Wall Street" as the "evil incarnate"/"enemies of the state" and thus manages to cause a major fleeing from the U.S. to investments elsewhere? think that will stand The Zero in good stead with the electorate? and then when it comes to fulfilling The Zero's multitude of promises -- from mortgage payments to Universal Health Care -- yeah, like he's gonna keep those promises -- while he "redistributes the wealth" and creates a cradle to grave Welfare State? The Republican Party could capitalize on all these "heading for disaster" moments -- if the Republican Party fights for "Smaller, Leaner, Cleaner" Government!

151 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:31:54pm

re: #123 Charles

I think Palin was a cynical pick by McCain, to get the fundamentalist Christians aboard his campaign. And it worked.

Agreed, and agreed. Also, it was a cynical pick to try to sway some Hillary supporters. A two-fer.

I believe there were more than a few moderate centrists who might have voted for McCain, but were turned off by Palin's Pentecostalism.

I agree. In my own super-blue state, I've met a number of moderate centrist types who might have voted for McCain, but didn't, because of Palin. However, McCain had no chance at my super-blue state anyway, and Palin wasn't designed to win here.

152 Dan G.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:31:56pm

re: #127 DeafDog

Past performace and judgements. Actions speak louder than words.

153 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:31:58pm
154 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:31:59pm

re: #127 DeafDog

There were 3 Presidential and 1 Vice-presidential dabates.

0 questions on the pressing social issues were asked.

How did Social issues play into this election at all? I don't get it.

The MSM and the Dems were able to brainwash many Americans into believing that the fault for the current economic meltdown lay completely with the Bush administration, and the six years of Bush's term when the GOP held both houses of Congress. Yes, Bush and the GOP share some blame, but the fire started under Clinton's watch.

155 piglet-u93  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:32:06pm

Why we lost

Media bias, heavily financed, smoothest talker (promised everything to everyone), infomercials, endless tax calculation ads, highly motiviated lemmings and the best run campaign right down to the house level, more phone calls, more door to door.

The slicker more eloquent talker won over the more honest one.

Conservatives just need to stop being the slient majority and get off their a$$e$. This talk about moving more left in order to win is unfounded.

156 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:32:12pm

re: #123 Charles

I think Palin was a cynical pick by McCain, to get the fundamentalist Christians aboard his campaign. And it worked.

I believe there were more than a few moderate centrists who might have voted for McCain, but were turned off by Palin's Pentecostalism. Hell, I don't just believe this -- I saw this happen at LGF. More than a few readers who were pre-disposed to vote for McCain had their minds changed when Sarah Palin became the veep nominee.

I backed Palin up, because as far as I know she never really pushed the social con agenda. But it's pretty hard to deny that's why she was brought onboard.

It's not that hard to deny why she was brought on board. The Lizards are doing it right and left (excuse a pun).

157 Wm T Sherman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:32:30pm

I'm starting a pool on how long it will be until Obama gives his version of Carter's famous "malaise" speech. You know, the one where Carter explained it was not his fault that things were going to hell, it was the fault of the American people for not being worthy of his leadership.

Takers?

158 Intrepid  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:32:40pm

My questions in light of yesterday's disaster are many, but here are a few:

1. Which group(s) of republicans did not turn out to vote for anyone, or voted instead for Barr/Baldwin/et al?

2. Since John McCain ran on his reach-across-the-aisle "Maverick" reputation, why didn't that resonate with more moderate republicans and democrats?

3. Which areas of the country lost its "redness", and why?

It's obvious that moving toward the center did not get McCain the votes he needed in order to win. Both the McCain campaign and the Obama campaign came out against gay marriage, so that doesn't enter into the equation.

Analyzing this election will be fascinating, I must say.

159 OldLineTexan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:33:11pm

re: #91 Walter L. Newton

DId I say she was a "religious zealot?" No! I said she was picked to placate the social conservatives in the Repub party. And once that wing of the party saw she was not a female version of Jerry Fawell, then the shine wore off.

BTW, see your #54 and what you were responding to. Hence the verbiage. No apologies from me.

160 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:33:12pm

re: #123 Charles

I can see that to a point, but the real issue is that McCain's economic policy was a mess, and his rush to push the bailout did him no favors. Reviewing the polls, you can see a clear downward trend following that debacle. He never could recover after that - because he became associated not only with the fiscal mess, but the continuation of the Bush fiscal/monetary policy.

Had he counseled more patience and demanded a more focused and tighter bill, he might have picked up more support among moderates and independents who were turned off by the profligate spending spree to bail out businesses who made bad business decisions, running away from the free market.

Instead, he rushed headlong into the bailout - championing it, even as it got larded up. It was a big mistake.

161 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:33:16pm

re: #141 Walter L. Newton

Oh get off it. She was picked because she had the persona of 1) A babe, 2) mom, 3) family values, 4) gun owner, 5) outdoorsy and 6) fertile.

Her leadership abilities we a plus, but it was the "homespun" gal persona that they were marketing.

Yeah, having an actual RECORD of accomplishments and experience is totally useless ...

162 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:33:24pm

re: #103 looking closely

I think Conservatives need an ideological outreach. Something a little more appealing to young people and moderates, to convey the ideas and benefits of free market economies and the global benefit of a strong American military (which is there really to ensure the function of global free markets).

This particular website is a good example, actually.

I agree- this is why I asked repeatedly last night what people were going to do. We can spend some time thinking about why we're in the position we find ourselves in today, but after that, we need to figure out how we get back to conservatism. If we deny that soc-cons are great folks, but hurt us in the eyes of many in the middle who agree with us otherwise, than we will continue to fail at the ballot box. I've spoken with a number of moderates, and democrats who agree with me on all other aspects of conservatism (fiscal responsibility, educational choice, etc) but are turned off by the overtly religious members of our party.

163 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:33:24pm

re: #123 Charles

I deny it and I'm not a social conservative.

I think McCain was sincere in referencing Palin's reform credentials.

Palin - who was a nobody a few years ago - got herself elected as governor. Why? She was a reformer. Give her at least some credit.

164 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:33:26pm
165 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:33:27pm

re: #147 SouthAmericanWay

I disagree with your assessment, Charles: this was certainly not a referendum on Social Conservatism - and if it was, Prop 8 in CA, and similar measures in AZ and FLA, showed that Social Conservatism won once again.

Yes, if social conservatism were a losing issue, then Prop 8 should have failed miserably in California, with all those blue voters they have in the SF and LA metro areas.

166 Dizzy26  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:33:32pm

Bar Stool Economics

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something likethis:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

'Since you are all such good customers, he said, I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.

Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to workout the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare theirsavings.

'I only got a dollar out of the $20, 'declared the sixth man.
He pointed to the tenth man, 'but he got $10!'

'Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar, too.
It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!'

'That's true!' shouted the seventh man.
'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'

'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all.
The system exploits the poor!'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax systemworks. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

DavidR. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics, University of Georgia

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

167 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:33:42pm

re: #123 Charles

I think Palin was a cynical pick by McCain, to get the fundamentalist Christians aboard his campaign.


I don't think it was McCain's decision. I think he let Dobson pick his VP for him.

168 looking closely  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:33:50pm

re: #120 apocolypse yesterday

Not sure I agree that social conservatism killed the Republicans.

Marriage vote passed in California, Arizona, and Florida. The dems won two of the three states.

What killed the Republicans is that they have not acted like fiscal conservatives -- spending out of control, earmarks, nationalization of the banks

I agree. (And post #121 says essentially the same thing).

McCain just did a shi**y job of presenting sound economic policy in ways the voter could understand, while Obama had a particular talent for presenting shi#$y economic policy as something wonderful.

And thus the biggest boondoggle of this election cycle is the idea that somehow the Democrats (who want to increase taxes in multiple areas AND spending) are the "better" ones for the economy.

169 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:33:51pm

Another thing the Republicans need to clean up their act on is immigration. For crying out loud, we are a nation of immigrants! By what right do we get to be snotty about some newcomer's accent? In the nineteenth century, the No-Nothings (who expressed sentiments hauntingly similar to those recently expressed by some Republicans) were ridden out of town & deservedly so.

My family came here in the mid-seventeenth century & I am certain that in my long FFV pedigree, an illegal alien or two crept over the wall. One of my dearest friends was born in Saigon. He is now a full US citizen & I rejoice in what he brings to our great nation.

170 manny  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:34:09pm

A couple of thoughts. I agree that's the way the party should go. Of course, that's the way I lean personally so there may be a bias there.

However, I don't understand why this wouldn't leave room for a Sarah Palin. Yes, she personally is a conservative Christian, but she didn't govern that way; she governed under a good-government corruption-busting banner. That the press successfully painted her differently is irrelevant -- they also painted Obama different from how he most likely is, McCain as different from how he is and most especially Joe Biden as different from how he is. As much as anything, if the Republicans are to reclaim victory they're going to have to get some dollars together and buy some big media properties, a la Murdoch. Conservative consumers are going to have to start calling newspaper advertisers and CNN's advertisers and tell them they're not sponsoring news but rather sponsoring rhetoric. Rhetoric which is antithetical to you, their current and perhaps former customer.

Second, while again I think more toward libertarianism is the way the party should go, it's not at all clear to me that social conservatism is dead. The anti-gay amendments and initiatives went 4-0 against tolerance. To be sure, those measures were helped by a large black turnout, who are overwhelmingly anti-gay rights. I think there may be room in the party for at least social conservatism if people aren't so damn mean about it.

The main thing the party has to do is pick up a new large and hopefully growing additional bloc. Traditionally for both parties that has been immigrants. Again on the meanness front, we're going to have to recognize that a vast majority of Americans are simply not mean enough to go arrest 12 million people who simply want a better life. Even as we strengthen the borders, we're going to have to adopt and SUPPORT a plan to bring the current illegal aliens into society. Going back to social conservatism, we're talking about 12 million overwhelmingly Catholic people with traditional views on nuclear and multi-generational extended families. Again if we can be less mean about it there's a lot of room to bring them in.

How to be socially conservative without being mean? Well, not discriminating against gays but preserving private parties' rights to do so, at least where intimacy issues are involved (small apartment rentals, for example). Believing that there should indeed be a family hour on TV but not excoriating everyone who puts on filth during the following hour, but rather mocking the people so prudish they want to control every hour and every medium.

The Republican party should go Reagan plus -- out of our wallets, out of our bedrooms, off our backs.

171 Gretchen  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:34:21pm

I think the problem is that the Left has systematically taken over almost complete control of education, especially higher education, and the media. To a lesser extent they have taken control of mainstream churches. When children are indocrinated by the left for 13 years (this will be longer when universal preschool is imposed), television and popular culture.

Kids are taught one cannot be against redefining marriage without being labeled as "gay-bashing", one can't be for stricter immigration controls without being "racist" and one cannot disagree with global warming without being "pro-pollution", or be anti-abortion = "anti-woman". Kids are taught they must never be intolerant of leftist positions, calling Sarah Palin a C___, however is perfectly acceptable as she is supposedly anti-gay, anti-woman, a religious nut-job, and pro-gun.

I guess we need to get a whole bunch of conservatives into teaching. We have an entire generation who has been taugh tolerance is acceptance of all leftist positions. My son was taught the FDF saved the country during the depression, and that Christians started the crusades to force everyone to be Christian, has been made to sit through Earth in the Balance, and handed a pro-Bisexual book for Freshman Language Arts. I am pretty sure other than the topic, this book is not, errr, great literature. In college he'll be taught America is evil.

172 Quad Mocha Matti  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:34:38pm

re: #76 DeafDog

It is far, far better to hope that the Obama administration manages to do well for the sake of the country.

re: #116 seekeroftruth

I am really tired of the Washington elites telling everyone what to do. They are so removed from the average American. I think that was Sara Palin's biggest appeal - she was just one of us. It was the elites on the Republican side, Frum, Parker, Noonan, Krauthammer, etc that joined in with the Koz kids, DNC, and the media to trash her. I really resent their behavior. I'd wouldn't trust any of the elites to have the best interest of the American people or of the R party as their motive.

Glenn Beck alluded to this in his program today - he played the voice mail message(s) of Sarah calling Dan (Glenn's producer?) to set up a time to talk with Glenn on the air, while she was on the campaign trail. Glenn commented that she totally bypassed the entrenched mindset of the typical pol that only their "handlers" deal with setting up the interviews, not the actual political figure. She took a machete to that practice just like she's done to other issues.

173 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:34:50pm

"Social Conservative" seems an oxymoron to me. Wouldn't the position of a true "socially conservative" person be that the gov't should stay the hell out of peoples private lives?

174 gregg  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:34:57pm

Could someone explain California to me? Obama 6.1 million to McCain 3.7 million, yet Prop 8 lost.

175 OldLineTexan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:34:59pm

re: #151 Last Mohican

Agreed, and agreed. Also, it was a cynical pick to try to sway some Hillary supporters. A two-fer.

I believe there were more than a few moderate centrists who might have voted for McCain, but were turned off by Palin's Pentecostalism.

I agree. In my own super-blue state, I've met a number of moderate centrist types who might have voted for McCain, but didn't, because of Palin. However, McCain had no chance at my super-blue state anyway, and Palin wasn't designed to win here.

That makes THEM religious bigots.

I voted for her. My being Baptist had no effect on that. I would have happily voted for Romney.

Bigots piss me off.

176 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:35:13pm
177 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:35:17pm

re: #124 Pawn of the Oppressor

I agree- and I say this having a lot of respect for Sarah. God love her, I know I do. But she is only left of center of Jindal, who is not electable.

178 Lorenska  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:35:24pm

re: #149 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Keep thee hands off of my dildo! is what I would I would say.

Personally, I am a church going right to lifer, but I also don't think that the gov't should have any say in these matters. No one can force morality on others, your choices are between yourself and your creator (if you believe in one).

As a conservative I say...enforce the laws, protect my country and stay the hell out of my bedroom.

God bless you, you took the words right out of my mouth - and not just out of my bedroom, but out of my LIFE. The way govt is leaning - and certainly O's vision - is that govt should run everything, oversee everything, be in charge of everything, know everything about everyone and what we do...for our own good, of course. And for those who want taken care of, that's what they want - a nanny state to run their lives. I for one want my govt to keep my country safe from criminals (including illegals) and terrorists, and let me, a grown up, make most decisions about how I live. If nothing I'm doing is hurting anyone else, leave it the hell alone.

179 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:35:28pm

re: #123 Charles

I think Palin was a cynical pick by McCain, to get the fundamentalist Christians aboard his campaign. And it worked.

I believe there were more than a few moderate centrists who might have voted for McCain, but were turned off by Palin's Pentecostalism. Hell, I don't just believe this -- I saw this happen at LGF. More than a few readers who were pre-disposed to vote for McCain had their minds changed when Sarah Palin became the veep nominee.

I backed Palin up, because as far as I know she never really pushed the social con agenda. But it's pretty hard to deny that's why she was brought onboard.

My impression was that it was an inroad to appeal to women who thought they'd been thrown under the bus by the Democratic party along with Hillary. Not to mention the fact that McCain is perceived as an old glue-horse and she was pretty and cheerful and infinitely more appealing. Not that the Fundie element didn't figure large into the equation. Really, I can't entirely disagree, though.

180 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:35:42pm

re: #127 DeafDog

There were 3 Presidential and 1 Vice-presidential dabates.

0 questions on the pressing social issues were asked.

How did Social issues play into this election at all? I don't get it.

"I think Roe v Wade was a bad decision"
"It's good to be here in the real America"
And the GOP happily let the Dems paint Palin as some kind of rube who believes dinosaurs and people lived at the same time. They let that slide, and it stuck.

Palin was seen as a divider to a significant number of people. Obama preached unity. The GOP played loud and dumb, and it turned off a big chunk of people.

Believe it or don't, but that's what they're saying elsewhere.

181 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:35:48pm

re: #123 Charles

I think Palin was a cynical pick by McCain, to get the fundamentalist Christians aboard his campaign. And it worked.

I believe there were more than a few moderate centrists who might have voted for McCain, but were turned off by Palin's Pentecostalism. Hell, I don't just believe this -- I saw this happen at LGF. More than a few readers who were pre-disposed to vote for McCain had their minds changed when Sarah Palin became the veep nominee.

I backed Palin up, because as far as I know she never really pushed the social con agenda. But it's pretty hard to deny that's why she was brought onboard.

Gotta agree with you there.

I like Palin because she has certain beliefs, but at the same time does not try to force them down peoples throats...ie: being a creationist but not wising it to be taught in public schools.

I send my kids to Catholic school, where they are taught creationism, but I pay for it. I don't expect tax payer dollars to pay for teaching creationism in public schools.

182 bombay311  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:35:58pm

re: #23 Joo-LiZ

I have to say I agree with this as well...

I have generally said that I consider myself to be a fiscal conservative, foreign policy "conservative" (if you can say that -- I believe in the GWOT, is that really a conservative thing though?), but socially more liberal.

The reason for that last point is that as much as conservatives want smaller government and less interference, they simultaneously want the government to make certain social decisions for everyone.

While I agree in principle with social conservatism, I just cannot support legislation of it... social conservatism should be TAUGHT, not imposed.

Hopefully that makes sense.

What he said

183 joncelli  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:35:58pm

re: #124 Pawn of the Oppressor

The Dems make headway because they put gun control on the back burner. Repubs need to do the same with some of their pet issues.

Yes. Talk about taxes, talk about small government, talk about strong defense -- don't make the discussion about social conservatism. I think Sarah can do that, but she needs to start emphasizing policy now. If she can't then maybe we should take a look at, say, Duncan Hunter.

184 jill e  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:36:12pm

re: #88 Dianna

But he wasn't. Reagan, as governor in California, signed into law one of the most liberal abortion laws to that time.

Reagan developed into an unabashed opponent to abortion.

Without protection of life from the beginning, he believed that the rest didn't really matter.

185 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:36:18pm

When it comes to legislating social behaviors, all I know is that I want the government as far away from me as possible when it comes to telling me what I cannot or cannot do as a free person in a free society, how to raise my kids and educate them or worrying about whether someone is going to be offended by my behaviors that do not violate their life.

This is not the government's business, whether one is a Republican or Democrat.

We have a couple of choices in life - liberty and the ensuing responsibilities that come with liberty or force of government to dictate/control our lives.

186 BignJames  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:36:29pm
As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win.

I respectfully disagree. This was George Bush's third election...and he lost...BDS has had it's day.

187 kynna  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:36:32pm

I think the fight against gay marriage is a waste of time. I think the fight to put Creationism (ID) in the science classrooms is unconstitutional and a stupid distraction. I do approve of the fight to keep abortion from being a go-to, but I'm not certain legislation is the answer to that one so much as information.

I don't think those 'fights' are really socially conservative, either. I think they're distractions from the fight to protect our freedom and conservatives got yoked into them by clever democrats.

There are plenty of things to focus on that are sure things. The people who voted for Obama were alarmingly uninformed about basic issues regarding the man and his agenda. The more informed people are the more open minded they are and the less likely they are to follow a leftist tack. That's the Republican battlefield.

188 manny  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:36:34pm

Oh, one other thought. It's got to be OK to be smart again. Not Ivory-tower smart, but at least smart. And not to put too fine a point on it, but creationists are either stupid or willfully stupid. There are no exceptions. If they're willing to keep their silly and factually incorrect ideas to themselves, fine. Otherwise, throw 'em out.

189 jainphx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:36:38pm

I tend to stay out of ID posts, but Ronald Reagan believed in it and, that was landslide. We go backwards on social issues to our detriment. We can't win with rinos and the limp wrist ed we have now.

190 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:36:45pm

Oh well ... so much for that.

(We're so absorbed with the fleas, no one can see the dog.)

191 DistantThunder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:36:48pm

re: #137 uptight

Personal morality is a matter for people's personal lives. Turn it into a political doctrine and and you exclude everyone except evangelicals.

Conservatism is supposed to be about "small government", but when it comes to governing people's personal lives there are some conservatives that want to get positively Orwellian about it.

Not their business.

frankly there are some slippery areas where you have a massive abortion industry that does not want parental notification laws. I don't think a 21 year old should be able to take his 16 year old girlfriend across state lines for an abortion, but if she wants to use a tanning bed, and risk skin cancer she needs parental permission.

192 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:37:07pm

re: #176 buzzsawmonkey

It is unfortunate that the religious institutions have turned to the government and attempted to wrest its power to enforce what they have failed to inculcate.

DINGDINGDING!

193 alien_mind  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:37:13pm

social issues had next to nothing to do with this defeat. show me any polling data that demonstrates that it did and I will reconsider.
The overwhelming issue was of course the economy, and of course the Republicans have to get the economy back on there side. its a travesty that the Democrats have been able to win that issue. Frum would push Republicans in the direction of being nothing more than me-too Democrats.

194 VioletTiger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:37:23pm

I think it is hard to gage social issues because there is no longer large groups committed to any broad set of ideas. You find one group that says no abortion, another that opposes only things like partial birth abortion, etc. Then you have groups that say no gay marriage, but want civil unions, vs no same sex unions at all. The best option is to stay out of people's business whenever possbile.

195 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:37:25pm

re: #109 Peacekeeper

We recently had a Republican Senator having gay sex in an airport toilet and that's about as socially liberal as you can get. Yet it didn't help his career now did it?

You're missing the point of that debacle. The reason that scandal hurt Larry Craig (and the GOP to a limited extent) is because it just reeked of hypocrisy. Craig was a supporter of the FMA, and publicly maintained the usual GOP anti-gay line -- while at the same time frequenting bathrooms for casual sex.

196 joncelli  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:37:39pm

re: #142 faraway

The economy had much more of an impact than that. McCain was ahead before the mortgage crisis.

197 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:37:45pm

re: #123 Charles

I think Palin was a cynical pick by McCain, to get the fundamentalist Christians aboard his campaign. And it worked.

I believe there were more than a few moderate centrists who might have voted for McCain, but were turned off by Palin's Pentecostalism. Hell, I don't just believe this -- I saw this happen at LGF. More than a few readers who were pre-disposed to vote for McCain had their minds changed when Sarah Palin became the veep nominee.

I backed Palin up, because as far as I know she never really pushed the social con agenda. But it's pretty hard to deny that's why she was brought onboard.

This whole Palin alienated such and such a group takes away from the fundamental issue which is/was McCain was a weak choice from the start.

198 faraway  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:38:03pm

re: #117 leereyno

not all christians are social conservatives.

How's that?

199 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:38:04pm

re: #181 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Actually- the Catholic church teaches evolution.

200 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:38:09pm

re: #176 buzzsawmonkey


I hate to say it, but the prevalence of abortion reflects the failure of the religious institutions. If the institutions which are supposed to be the safeguardians of morality were effective, abortion could be as legal as could be and the places that provide it would be closing their doors for lack of business.

It is unfortunate that the religious institutions have turned to the government and attempted to wrest its power to enforce what they have failed to inculcate.

Good point and good conservative logic.

201 dsrtegl  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:38:19pm

I'm a hard-core Jeffersonian when it comes to government. Less is more. Low taxes, low regulation, self-determination and responsibility, etc, etc.

Social Conservatism is fine, as long as you do not legislate based upon religious beliefs. I believe everyone should live by a personal moral code, it makes society a better place and I admire those with strict standards for themselves.

I don't have a problem with your beliefs or your moral code, but using religion as an argument for public policy is akin to farting in an elevator. It's just plain rude.

I don't force my personal spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof) upon anyone. I expect the same in return.

Many people feel as I do in this regard. Be careful not to alienate that type of voter.

my $0.02 - you get what you pay for. :)

202 Quad Mocha Matti  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:38:20pm

re: #121 lawhawk

I actually disagree with this being an election on the repudiation of social conservatism.

It was the economy. Period. End stop.

The GOP message on the economy was a muddled mess. McCain didn't help matters, and the GOP spending spree was an abdication of the supposed GOP and conservative idea of fiscal responsibility.

You want to know why people weren't inspired; that's it.

Their choice was a guy who was free spending and had a muddled message and a guy who was free spending and giving away free stuff to all those who wanted hope and change. Hope and change won out, even if the reality is soon to settle in and the buyer's remorse will have many questioning what they just did.

Social conservatives have no where to turn as it is as most of the GOP gives them short shrift. Fiscal conservatives are screwed by everyone - even those who happen to be Democrats. No one in DC is holding the government spending accountable to the taxpayer. No one.

There was no enthusiasm for McCain not because of Palin's presence, but despite of it. McCain did little to engender enthusiasm because of his bend-over-backwards approach to key issues for the GOP. Instead of keeping the line on issues like immigration, McCain tried to go to the left of the left. It didn't work.

The same can be said of the bailout and everything else having to do with spending.

You simply cannot outspend Democrats on the social issues (on national defense, where Democrats absolutely abhor spending anything at all, it's real easy). Democrats will simply complain that you need to spend more to make it work - just watch what's happening with the bailout. The first part of the bailout is deemed insufficient, so they're demanding hundreds of billions more. No idea that it will work, but they're pushing for it anyways. More good money after bad.

You want to know how to fix the GOP - start right there. Enough with the profligate spending. The social conservatives will come around to that position too - because if the government is spending less, it means that they're influencing the personal issues that much less. And in the process, you're going to pick off all that many more people who would rather see their paychecks grow than know that they've got no chance of getting ahead because of high taxes on businesses that stifle economic development.

To borrow from Rush, I'll just say "Right On³"

203 Moe Katz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:38:31pm

re: #188 manny

Oh, one other thought. It's got to be OK to be smart again. Not Ivory-tower smart, but at least smart. And not to put too fine a point on it, but creationists are either stupid or willfully stupid. There are no exceptions. If they're willing to keep their silly and factually incorrect ideas to themselves, fine. Otherwise, throw 'em out.

Yes, and there was an undercurrent of anti-intellectualism to the Palin candidacy that some kinds of conservatives found quite offensive.

204 DistantThunder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:38:33pm

re: #149 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Keep thee hands off of my dildo! is what I would I would say.

Personally, I am a church going right to lifer, but I also don't think that the gov't should have any say in these matters. No one can force morality on others, your choices are between yourself and your creator (if you believe in one).

As a conservative I say...enforce the laws, protect my country and stay the hell out of my bedroom.

That's the argument that men make in countries where it is not illegal to beat your wife and children within an inch of their lives - they say, don't legislate morality, and stay out of my home.

205 OldLineTexan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:38:38pm

re: #170 manny

You don't understand.

If you're "overtly religious" (whatever that means), you gotta go.

Unless your preacher of twenty years and spitiual mentor is a flaming racist. Then it's OK.

See, that religion dog don't hunt.

206 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:38:38pm

re: #130 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A GOP ticket which focuses on a smaller "hands off" approach to government and supporting strong national defense, trade and borders is a winner. Anything else doesnt stand a chance.

I agree in principal, but that ticket would have gotten whalloped in 2008. On the heals of the financial meltdown - which Obama argued was caused by lack of regulation - the need for some govt. involvement is obvious.

McCain's message of "reform" is salient to me. Get the cheats out of the system I think that should be part of the next campaign, but get better spokesmen/spokeswomen.

207 alien_mind  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:38:43pm

re: #60 OldLineTexan

I fail to see where Palin is a religious zealot.

that's because she isn't a religious zealot.

208 Lorenska  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:38:49pm

re: #157 Wm T Sherman

I'm starting a pool on how long it will be until Obama gives his version of Carter's famous "malaise" speech. You know, the one where Carter explained it was not his fault that things were going to hell, it was the fault of the American people for not being worthy of his leadership.

Takers?

I give it 6 months. He's already come out many times and said he's basically going to require 'public service,' Michelle said that O is going to 'make you get off your couches and get involved,' and his whole schtick has been, 'if we all just pitch in and hold hands and smile at each other, everyone will be fine.' So when it comes down to it and everyone says "f-u, you can't make me volunteer and you can't tie my salary or my college tuition to how much community service I do," he'll do just that - blame the populace for not following his shining lead.

209 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:39:00pm

re: #163 DeafDog

I deny it and I'm not a social conservative. I think McCain was sincere in referencing Palin's reform credentials. Palin - who was a nobody a few years ago - got herself elected as governor. Why? She was a reformer. Give her at least some credit.

Sure, she deserves some credit, but big fucking deal, that's not why McCain brought her on board. Hell, if he was looking for a social conservative with credentials, he had a shit load of people to select from. Are you telling me she was the MOST credentialed and the MOST accomplished politician that he could have selected?

McCAIN WANTED 1) A babe, 2) mom, 3) family values, 4) gun owner, 5) outdoorsy and 6) fertile. It was the "homespun" gal persona that they were marketing.

210 Kenneth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:39:01pm

re: #123 Charles

There's nothing cynical about that. Running mates are always chosen to balance or compensate the ticket in some way. Biden was picked to compensate for Obama's lack of experience. Palin was chosen to rally the conservative base, especially the religious conservatives who were not too thrilled about McCain. Palin also pulled some PUMA's over to McCain. She added youth an sex appeal to the crusty old warrior's campaign. She was never intended to appeal to liberal intellectual types.

211 JustAGal  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:39:02pm

Palin appealed to a lot of women. She could have been a bigger plus if McCain's advisors had gone after the economy.

But my humble opinion is that we never addressed the economic issues in time. Things were crumbling with the mortgage mess and we never came out early with a true plan.

The MSM crushed us, but we didn't address the economy and we had the chance.

212 Catttt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:39:04pm

I'm a fiscal conservative. For the most part, I'm actually not a social conservative, though I am pro-life (but think that coercion is not a good way to get people to agree with me). How many social conservatives are pro-gay marriage and go to Marilyn Manson concerts? People are complicated.

Show me the money. If there was STILL a party that believed in fair tax and not borrowing into oblivion, I would vote for them. OMG, does this mean I'm a libertarian?

213 J.S.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:39:15pm

re: #160 lawhawk

And, who's now going to be spending that bailout money? and who's further proposing yet another bailout package? (probably with little to no oversight) why none other than the Prez elect...O the irony (much of this -- again -- is due to the negligence of the MSM -- the liars in the Tank for The Zero).

214 shanester  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:39:21pm

I diagree, Charles.

Look at all of the social referndums that passed, even though Obama won big. Prop 8 in California passed to ban gay-marriage even though Obama won big (of course) there.

McCain (and Bush) are not Conservatives. Both of them reached across the aisle to the Democrats and look what happened. They get their arms cut off by those very same Democrats.

Other than possibly abortion, this is a center-RIGHT country. If Reagan was a pro-choicer, he would win in a landslide today... IMHO.


Bush I, Bush II and McCain are not conservatives. Period.
Moving to the left has destroyed the Republican party. The last time REAL conservatives expressed their true beliefs (without worrying what the weenie media thinks, or without worrying about being compassionate), was in 1994. What happened? They took control of both houses.

We put RINOs in office (Bush) and we get wiped out.

215 looking closely  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:39:36pm

re: #123 Charles

I think Palin was a cynical pick by McCain, to get the fundamentalist Christians aboard his campaign. And it worked.

I believe there were more than a few moderate centrists who might have voted for McCain, but were turned off by Palin's Pentecostalism. Hell, I don't just believe this -- I saw this happen at LGF. More than a few readers who were pre-disposed to vote for McCain had their minds changed when Sarah Palin became the veep nominee.

I backed Palin up, because as far as I know she never really pushed the social con agenda. But it's pretty hard to deny that's why she was brought onboard.

See my post #122.

The "she's a whacko Christian" was the concept used by Palin's Dem attackers, mostly, in the unprecedented media blitz against her. I think the attack is largely unfair. Lets not forget, she did clean up the State of AK as governor, and achieved an unprecedented 80% approval rating there. That says something. She also currently enjoys more favorable ratings than McCain, too.

But even granting that her likely appeal to the SocCons was A factor in her selection, its not entirely clear that anyone else he could have brought on would have done any better in bringing in votes. (or alienating fewer). That includes Romney, (whom I always liked).

216 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:39:50pm

re: #35 Ward Cleaver

Nothing like another emotionally-charged thread. Fifty years ago, both Republicans and Democrats were mostly social conservatives. Now Republicans are supposed to abandon social conservatism, like the Dems have? I have a hard time with that, personally. We'll become like Europe; either somewhat liberal, or really liberal.

I don't think the Dem voters have abandoned social conservatism. In two states they banned gay marriage and at the same time voted for BHO. Not all so-cons are Reps that support the GOP. In fact, I am thinking that a majority of so-cons are deep blue.

217 Wookieelips  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:39:50pm

I agree. I find it ironic that the "small government" party is so intent on policing what people do in private.
Don't get me wrong, I still support them because I'm not so stupid that I don't know that with a Republican-run government we're more likely to have to safety and security as a nation to fight for things like gay rights, property rights, etc.

I do wish sometimes though that I wouldn't have to cringe every once in a while when my candidate speaks.

218 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:39:55pm

re: #116 seekeroftruth

I am really tired of the Washington elites telling everyone what to do. They are so removed from the average American. I think that was Sara Palin's biggest appeal - she was just one of us.

You keep singing that tune, right off the cliff of your choice. It's the "Red" side of "red vs. blue". If you don't want to be perceived of as a dumb hick, then stop saying the things they expect you to say.

"Tina Fey's impersonation of Palin isn't funny because it's a parody. It's funny because it's a direct imitation!" - actual quote from a Dem-heavy forum I poke my nose into once in a while. Think about it.

219 Catttt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:40:08pm

re: #211 JustAGal

Palin appealed to a lot of women. She could have been a bigger plus if McCain's advisors had gone after the economy.

But my humble opinion is that we never addressed the economic issues in time. Things were crumbling with the mortgage mess and we never came out early with a true plan.

The MSM crushed us, but we didn't address the economy and we had the chance.

Totally agree. When I realized I knew more about economics than either side, I knew this would be a bad year.

220 Kenneth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:40:10pm

re: #174 gregg

I don't know if anybody has ever successfully explained California.

221 eon  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:40:10pm

I've been a Republican since I was 18. Not because I'm a "social conservative", but because the Democratic party my parents belonged to vanished about ten years before I was old enough to vote.

It was replaced by a group of meddling busybodies who were (and are) totally convinced of their own perfection, utterly sure that anyone who wasn't like them was evil, and were and are completely devoted to the goal of remaking the world in their own weird image.

My definition of what government should and should not do was best summed up by Lucas Trask in H.Beam Piper's Space Viking. Speaking of the Sword Worlds, a group of autonomous worlds settled by refugees from a war that collapsed the former Terran Federation, he said:

"Well, we don't use the word government very much. We talk a lot about authority and sovereignty, and I'm afraid we burn entirely too much powder over it, but government always seems to us like sovereignty interfering in matters that don't concern it. As long as sovereignty maintains a reasonable semblance of good public order and makes the more serious forms of crime hazardous for the criminals, we're satisfied."

Trask goes on to say that 'social services', like schools and roads and hospitals, are provided by the people themselves- government (in the Sword Worlds) being restricted to just ensuring that no one is shooting at them while they're doing it. he also observes that since the "common folk" in the Sword Worlds are armed (no standing armies) "the leaders listen very carefully to the 'voice of the people' if they want to keep their heads on their shoulders."

I do see a slightly more extensive role' for government- as Deety Burroughs Carter said in Heinlein's The Number of the Beast, "It does take a ton of money to run this country, to pay for roads and schools and national defense." But to follow on to Deety's observation, there are entirely too many fat-arsed chairwarmers in government at all levels. Not to mention too many who confuse themselves with God- the latter fault not being the exclusive province of the "right".

My opinion is that as long as I don't bother anyone, I'd prefer that government keep its nose out of my affairs. Notably my bedroom and my gun cabinet.

As for what my neighbors get up to, as long as they're not doing it in my living room, that's none of my damn business. Going back to Heinlein, he held that the two rules of living in civilization are;

1. Don't Annoy Others.

2. Don't Be Too Easily Annoyed Yourself.

To which his wife Virginia added;

3. And Keep Your Hands To Yourself Unless You Are Asked To Apply Them.

Good rules for everyone, I think. Which is probably why no politician will consider acting in accordance with them for a New York minute.

cheers

eon

222 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:40:20pm

What we forget here, and should remember is that the Reagan coalition had three legs: social conservatism, fiscal conservatism, and defense hawks. After Newt left the Speakership, they seemed to forget the fiscal conservative end of it. As much as I like Denny Hastert, he was not a fiscal conservative, and spent money like a drunken sailor. That is why they lost in 2006. 2008 is just a backlash against a two-term presidency. Only once since WWII, has a party that got two terms in the presidency gotten a thrid term (1980-1992).

I figure we need to get back to that coalition. Some of the social conservative stances could be softened a bit - creationism, anti-gay; but others are fine - abortion, respect for people. I'd rather see a respect for life than otherwise, personally (and that includes the death penalty - it should be used very rarely). We also should add a fourth leg: clean and transparent government. Clean and transparent government would differentiate us from the Obama-Pelosi-Reid gang of corruption. It would make us trustworthy; however, we'd have to earn that tust, and maintain that trust. No more Ted Stevenses or George Ryans. Kick those bastards out of the party.

If we can do that, I think 2010 is ripe for a new revolution a la 1994. I see the Obama-Pelosi-Reid Axis as being one of the most corrupt governments in our history.

223 calcajun  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:40:30pm

This is what I've written today to several friends in the GOP:

I’ve sent this around to several GOP friends who have expressed some bitterness over the results. I’m sending it to you guys to show how some on the other side aisle view things.


“Last night was a defeat for our party, but not the Conservative philosophy. McCain, God bless him, was not a Conservative in the Reagan mold. He was like Bush, a moderate/centrist. In many ways, the Democrats were right; he would have been a continuation of the Bush presidency. Now, the GOP needs to learn from this debacle; it was—there’s no other way to describe it. Looking at avoiding a filibuster-proof Senate is a bit like the British looking at Dunkirk as a great victory; it wasn’t, was a retreat from a crushing defeat, but it did preserve a remnant upon which to build. Now we must prepare for the mid-term elections in 2010. The first thing is to realize that this was an unmitigated defeat for moderate Republicans; there is no longer one “moderate” GOP member of the House from any New England state. Two moderate senate seats, OR and MN, both were narrowly won, and both will be the subject of a recount. But, some basic conservative principles shone through, like the marriage propositions in CA, AZ and FL, all of which won. In short, Conservatism is not dead.

This is also about attitude. We cannot become embittered as many Democrats were in 2000. Unlike them, BHO is going to be OUR President and we should wish him well for the sake of the country. To do otherwise is to place partisan affiliation above national devotion. We need to show the whole country what it means to be a “loyal” opposition, and today is the day we need to start doing that.

Yeah, defeat stings, but, to paraphrase Ving Rhames from “Pulp Fiction”, that’s pride messing with you. We’ve been magnanimous in victory. Now we need to be gracious, if, for no other reason, than to show the next generation how to properly act.“

I do not believe social conservatism is dead, nor is it dying. If anything, Bush and the GOP Congress moved away from it and yesterday, they paid the price.

The battle now is for ideas--not personality. The idea that Jindal and others like him are ineligible for higher office due to their local support of a doctrine some find offensive is idiotic; you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. To do so ignores political realities, i.e.; he is merely keeping a campaign promise. Jindal is one of the smartest and brightest young leaders in the GOP and he will go further than Baton Rouge.

The ideals and principles of fiscal restraint, strong defense, sensible domestic policies and programs which teach our people how to fish instead of giving them a fish are the cornerstone of social conservatism. There is nothing in the Democrat platform equaling them. These are the roots to which we must return.

In short, Bush and friends tried to make the GOP the political equivalent of "New Coke" and got the same results as Coke did. It's time to go back to the original formula.

224 Kragar  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:40:33pm

re: #198 faraway

How's that?

Social Conservatives believe its the Government's place to take action in regards to social issues. Plenty of people believe the Government should keep their damn hands out of their business, Christians, Muslims, Hindi, etc.

225 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:40:33pm
226 Boolz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:40:37pm

I don't think the question should be "should the GOP get more socially conservative", the question should be how do the social cons and the fiscal cons compromise with each other to present an united front to their common enemy

227 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:40:53pm

re: #195 Charles

You're missing the point of that debacle. The reason that scandal hurt Larry Craig (and the GOP to a limited extent) is because it just reeked of hypocrisy. Craig was a supporter of the FMA, and publicly maintained the usual GOP anti-gay line -- while at the same time frequenting bathrooms for casual sex.

Charles has nailed the precise point. It was about Craig's underlying character (or lack thereof), NOT his day-to-day behavior.

228 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:40:55pm

re: #176 buzzsawmonkey

I hate to say it, but the prevalence of abortion reflects the failure of the religious institutions. If the institutions which are supposed to be the safeguardians of morality were effective, abortion could be as legal as could be and the places that provide it would be closing their doors for lack of business.

It is unfortunate that the religious institutions have turned to the government and attempted to wrest its power to enforce what they have failed to inculcate.

But then you have government schools that teach them the opposite of what churches teach (or now, some churches used to teach). Left-wing indoctrination.

229 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:40:57pm

Where to begin? A lot of ground to cover here. Generally speaking I agree with Frum's analysis, but I don't particularly like him and I think blaming Sarah Palin for the loss is not accurate. As Allahpundit pointed out she may have cost him some votes but most assuredly not 100 electoral votes. This election was lost because of economic turmoil generally speaking, and an inept campaign run by Sen. McCain specifically speaking.

230 Lizard by the Bay  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:40:59pm

re: #138 mkelly

Lizard by the Bay please get real. No one has ever said anything about locking up girls who have abortion.

From the 2008 Republican Platform:

We support a human life amendment to the Constitution, and we endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children.

That means charging a woman who has an abortion (and ther doctor) with murder.

Here's another piece that needs to go:

We support the law prohibiting gambling over the Internet.

Nanny state nonsense.

231 Hooray for Captain Spaulding  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:41:03pm

re: #181 The Pulchritudinous Patriot


I send my kids to Catholic school, where they are taught creationism, but I pay for it. I don't expect tax payer dollars to pay for teaching creationism in public schools.

Say WHAT?
Since when is creationism taught in Catholic schools?
Hell, I'm 53 and was never taught creationism.

232 MadJadBad  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:41:04pm

re: #101 Sharmuta
I think the Republicans need to shift closer to the Libertarians. Social issues have to be framed in the context of the Constitution. For example, abortion should not be argued as a religious issue, but rather a human rights issues. The question should be to define when a fetus becomes a "person" and is thus endowed with the natural rights guaranteed in the Constitution, because the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness trumps the right to privacy. When you can argue with facts, science and some common sense you can change people's minds.

233 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:41:08pm

re: #174 gregg

From the Corner on Prop 8:

Black Voters Save Proposition 8

In California, it looks like Prop 8 has a good chance of passing. With 92 percent of precincts reporting, the gay marriage ban is winning 52 percent to 48 percent. And if it does pass, it will be because of black and, to a lesser extent, Latino voters.

According to exit polls, whites opposed the amendment 53-47. But blacks supported it 70-30, and Latinos supported it 51-49. The polls have blacks at 10 percent of the electorate for this issue, with Latinos at 19 percent and whites at 63 percent. (Asians, at six percent, opposed the proposition 53-47.)

234 y0kkles  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:41:13pm

Can't the wings of the party find common ground on social issues? Taking a right stance on social issues is important. Let's just not take a shift too far to the right.

How about pro-life with exceptions (rape, incest, life of the mother), let homosexuals do whatever they want to behind closed doors (but preserve traditional marriage), and teach evolution only in the science class (but present and debate the existence of God in philosophy class).

I'm a social conservative and that works for me, and I think it would hold the party together.

235 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:41:19pm

re: #214 shanester

The Contract with America was a fiscal and reform proposal, not a social contract.

236 shanester  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:41:31pm

Jindal not electable? WTF?

He is 100% electable.
He was elected in Louisiana for Christ's sake.
A Repub. in LA? If he can do that, he can get elected anywhere.
The only tougher place might be Mass. That's it.

237 bulwrk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:41:37pm

re: #174 gregg

The Latin vote may be liberal in many aspects but when it comes to family and morality issues they are socially conservative

238 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:41:43pm

re: #169 unreconstructed rebel

Another thing the Republicans need to clean up their act on is immigration. For crying out loud, we are a nation of immigrants! By what right do we get to be snotty about some newcomer's accent?

Though I agree that there's no reason or place for outright xenophobia, there is still a place for the immigration issue. The "founding immigrants" didn't migrate into a large, complex, successful, global economy - they created one. Large influxes of illegal immigrants is not good for any economy. Immigration reform is necessary and immigration enforcement is necessary. And as you said, cultural tolerance is necessary.

239 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:41:57pm

re: #195 Charles

Yeah - same thing happened on the other side to Eliot Spitzer. The hypocrisy factor really hurt him.

240 Red Lion  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:41:58pm

Amen, Charles!

241 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:41:59pm

Reagan was able to unite fiscal conservatives and religious traditionalists under the mantra of freedom, small government, personal responsibility...and a strong military to defend these ideas.

We just need some new faces who are capable of articulating these principals in an exciting way.

242 vapig  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:42:07pm
As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win.

I disagree with this. McCain did not run as a conservative. He ran as a centrist. He pandered to everyone BUT conservatives. His stance was virtually identical to Obama's except on the war and redistribution.

In short, he ran as a blue dog democrat.

243 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:42:41pm

Another thing that appealed to me about Palin is that she is a strong woman from a harsh frontier. I like strong women and respect anyone, particularly a woman, who can keep their sanity and even lead in a last bastion of rugged individualism. Maybe she'd credit her endurance to her faith, but so do a lot of athletes and as long as they get the job done it isn't a major factor in how I perceive their worthiness to be on the field. Of course, athletes don't author public policy.

244 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:42:46pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

oink

/with respect, but still meant

245 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:42:50pm

re: #217 Wookieelips

I agree. I find it ironic that the "small government" party is so intent on policing what people do in private.
Don't get me wrong, I still support them because I'm not so stupid that I don't know that with a Republican-run government we're more likely to have to safety and security as a nation to fight for things like gay rights, property rights, etc.

I do wish sometimes though that I wouldn't have to cringe every once in a while when my candidate speaks.

If they are, then they're going against their party and its leadership.

246 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:42:53pm

re: #154 Ward Cleaver

The MSM and the Dems were able to brainwash many Americans into believing that the fault for the current economic meltdown lay completely with the Bush administration, and the six years of Bush's term when the GOP held both houses of Congress. Yes, Bush and the GOP share some blame, but the fire started under Clinton's watch.

Yes, but that wasn't my question. This election had absolutely nothing to do with social issues. Zero. Nada. Zippo.

It was all about the economy.

247 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:42:53pm
248 cinnabar  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:42:59pm

Someone may have made this point, but why would the party want to move to a more moderate or libertarian point of view in the wake of 3 states (two of which went heavily for "0") voting against gay marriage? It seems that there be voters in that direction.

249 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:43:29pm

re: #152 Dan G.

So what?

250 faraway  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:43:32pm

re: #123 Charles

I think Palin was a cynical pick by McCain, to get the fundamentalist Christians aboard his campaign. And it worked.

I believe there were more than a few moderate centrists who might have voted for McCain, but were turned off by Palin's Pentecostalism. Hell, I don't just believe this -- I saw this happen at LGF. More than a few readers who were pre-disposed to vote for McCain had their minds changed when Sarah Palin became the veep nominee.

I backed Palin up, because as far as I know she never really pushed the social con agenda. But it's pretty hard to deny that's why she was brought onboard.

Palin's Pentecostalism? Did she start speaking in tongues or play with snakes some time on the campaign trail and I missed it?

She was brought on board because she is identical to moms everywhere that don't live on either of the 2 coasts. There are millions of them. She goes to church, and raises a family.

251 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:43:33pm

re: #199 Sharmuta

Actually- the Catholic church teaches evolution.

Well, my kid is only a 3rd grader and they've covered the whole God created the world in 6 days thing in religion class.

Not that I'm arguing, but perhaps she hasn't gotten to the proper grade level yet for the science lessons on evolution.

252 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:43:44pm

re: #205 OldLineTexan

You don't understand.

If you're "overtly religious" (whatever that means), you gotta go.

Unless your preacher of twenty years and spitiual mentor is a flaming racist. Then it's OK.

See, that religion dog don't hunt.

"I know you are, but what am I?" is not a valid defense for Obama, and it isn't a valid defense for Republicans, either.

Everybody is a hypocrite to some degree. Only Republican PR strategists refuse to acknowledge that.

253 debutaunt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:43:49pm

re: #70 Cognito

No, no -- that wasn't my point. I love to see Barack Obama put Iraq on its feet and turn around the economy. I'm all for it. I don't care if the Purple People Eaters Party brings success -- success is good.

My point was that if he does those things, the Republican party should sit back and enjoy the view, because there's no arguing against success.

Funny!

254 Hhar  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:43:52pm

To modify Sharmuta's response: I'm a social and fiscal conservative who wants the government to leave me the f*ck alone. I don't like moral busybodies on the left and I don't like them on the right either.

It isn't an either/or proposition: my conservatism centers on maximising social liberty by minimising government interference. If some creationist antiabortionist Pentecostal is with me on that, I don't care WHAT they beleive. Its their stew, and as long as they don't make it mine, I don't CARE.

Shoot. You can't argue constructively about ideology. You can argue constructively about what goverment should do.

255 zturlte  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:43:57pm

Charles I totally disagree, McCain was a moderate that is who the moderates wanted and they abandoned their own. Conservatism wins we see it a around the nation with amendments that passed. I believe in life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To me that is a conservative phrase, I am pro life not just a unborn child but all life as well. For that reason I don't support Universal Health Care as government cannot take care of us all. They will resort to rationing health care as it is too high risk to care for the very ill or old. We are a nation that goes to church but somehow we leave those beliefs at the door which I find hypocritical and arrogant. I am optimistic today as we have seen the unmasking of many people who label themselves as conservatives and are not even close. I will no longer be PC I will fight for what I believe in for my family and country. At the same time I will be tolerant as many may share some of my beliefs but not all. For example I do not believe the gay marriage is a right, it is a religious sacrement. Though I do believe in unions, if two people of the same sex want to unite in a union they should be afforded the same benefits/ laws as a marriage. I am pro life I go to church but I will not impose this on every person I meet. I like what Sarah Palin said that we should be a nation that celebrates life, it is a slippery slope when you try to say it is okay for death.
It is not.
I believe Sarah Palin is the future of this party, she just gets it.
McCain was their for the moderates independents etc. but they didn't go for it, why you got the real deal in Obama.

256 Moe Katz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:44:11pm

Come home annefrance, all is forgiven.

257 Dianna  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:44:17pm

re: #153 taxfreekiller

So, let me get this correct.

Its ok for those who believe in just rocks banging into rocks, and dust getting wet and that made life on earth, to be the end all of votes and stuff.

But if some one makes the choice to believe by faith alone that a greater spirit than these little Democrats and Republicans, started it all, then they should not get the same vote.

strange that

No, that's not it. I think the point is that legislating for either view is a terrible mistake.

258 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:44:25pm

re: #176 buzzsawmonkey

It is unfortunate that the religious institutions have turned to the government and attempted to wrest its power to enforce what they have failed to inculcate.

Very well put. Christianity, at least, is supposed to lead, not compel.

259 gopninja  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:44:38pm

when the gop drops gay marriage, abortion, and "this nation was founded on christian values!" as their platform, thats when I move back from (I) to (R). Also when they start practicing what they preach when it comes to finance.

The GOP is currently a monstrosity.

260 Quad Mocha Matti  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:44:50pm

re: #188 manny

but creationists are either stupid or willfully stupid. There are no exceptions. If they're willing to keep their silly and factually incorrect ideas to themselves, fine. Otherwise, throw 'em out.

Wow, sure sounds like the typical tolerant Leftist talk there!

/sarc

261 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:04pm

re: #160 lawhawk

Up ding. Finally someone speaking sense. This election had nothing to with religion - or we would have talked a lot about Reverend Wright.

262 J.S.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:11pm

re: #222 Honorary Yooper

Excellent synopsis! (more up-dings, if I could).

263 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:15pm

re: #203 Moe Katz

Yes, and there was an undercurrent of anti-intellectualism to the Palin candidacy that some kinds of conservatives found quite offensive.

I feel that there has been an under-current of anti-intellectualism in the whole Republican party lately, not just in her candidacy that many people found offensive.

264 OldLineTexan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:17pm

re: #252 Pawn of the Oppressor

"I know you are, but what am I?" is not a valid defense for Obama, and it isn't a valid defense for Republicans, either.

Everybody is a hypocrite to some degree. Only Republican PR strategists refuse to acknowledge that.

Funny, that's not what I said or meant, but you're welcome to spin it.

I'm pointing out disjoints in arguments that have ben made here.

265 shanester  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:18pm

Although I hate to think about the SCOTUS.
This will end up better for Conservatives in the long run.

Sorry, but if McCain won, he'd do the same thing... "reach across the aisle"... that's what Bush did. He'd be destroyed and we'd be even worse off.

This gives us a chance to get some REAL Cons to run next time and take back the legislature in 2010. I would bet money the Repubs will take over both houses in 2010. It will be like 1994, only more... IF we can get some REAL Cons to take over the party, instead of all of these RINOs.

266 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:20pm

re: #247 Iron Fist

What record of accomplishment did Obama have? None at all that I saw.

Exactly. (I was being sarcastic)

267 calcajun  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:26pm

re: #258 unreconstructed rebel

Very well put. Christianity, at least, is supposed to lead, not compel.

You've never met a Jesuit , have you?//

268 debutaunt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:27pm

re: #73 Charles

McCain's inability to articulate the pros of capitalism didn't do much good either.

269 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:29pm

The Republican party ran on a hodgepodge of ideas, not very well tied together. Senator McCain in his attempt to include so many people failed to tie it all together. I don't believe social conservatism failed in this platform; Senator Obama just promised more.

As a party, we need to go back to our social AND fiscal Conservative roots, anything less is merely a cheap imitation of the Democrat party with flavors added.

As this is the thread dedicated to the subject, I will repost the comment I wrote on the previous thread, with your indulgence.

According to Conservative Resources, there are six key elements defining Conservatism:

1. Belief in natural law.
2. Belief in established institutions.
3. Preference for liberty over equality.
4. Suspicion of power - and of human nature.
5. Belief in exceptionalism.
6. Belief in the individual.

1. Conservatives tend to believe in a higher order law as opposed to liberals who tend to support the written law. Simply put, this means Conservatives believe certain rights are inherent, given by God or they exist platonically, while liberals believe any rights given to man are derived through the written law. In other words, a government grants and guarantees the citizen any rights he/she may have.

2. A strong belief in institutions like family, church, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights are among some of the strong institutions in which a Conservative places his beliefs. Conservatives do not blindly oppose progress, but nor do they believe in change merely for social experimentation. On the other hand, a liberal will tend to believe the world can and will be changed through government forces in what Franklin Roosevelt called "bold persistent experimentation".

3. A reality most people do not accept in the present world is people can not be free and equal at the same time. Conservatives desire liberty, they desire to maximize freedom (to paraphrase Barry Goldwater) and do not accept that everyone is or should be on a level playing field whether they have earned the right to be or not.

4. Government is regarded as a necessary evil by Conservatives. If we lived in a perfect world peopled by perfect beings, no government would be necessary. This is the reason, it is believed, government must be controlled with checks and balances, and decentralized so it does not turn into a dictatorship. Along these lines, it is believed government is best exercised at the lowest possible levels first.

5. Conservatives recognize there are those among us that excel; they have superior abilities, talents, and/or intelligence. A liberal believes these individuals are lifted up by the masses. Conservatives believe these individuals exist as role models and inspire others to better themselves.

6. Barry Goldwater stated, "Every man, for his individual good and for the good of society, is responsible for his own development. The choices that govern his life are choices he must make; they can not be made by any other human being, or by a collectivity of human beings."

270 Opinionated  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:33pm

re: #5 Old Tanker

I don't buy that line. Reagan was a social conservative when those votes were won...AND a fiscal conservative. Social conservatism has been watered down since the 80's and got us nothing...

Reagan and Obama's victories were mirror images and Leftists will have to learn later what Republicans must learn now.

Obama didn't win because he is a Leftist and Reagan didn't win because he was a Social Conservative.

Both won in spite of those beliefs but because of their opposition.

271 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:40pm

All this talk about which policy directions the hopelessly lost GOP should pursue next is totally missing the point.

Political policy is totally irrelevant to presidential elections, from now on. That's the transformation that the Dems and the media achieved in 2008. People love Obama not in the way they loved Reagan or JFK, but in the way they loved The Beatles in 1964. The ideas are no longer relevant. Now it's the haircut, the suit, the moves, the logo, the fonts, and most of all the media pushing the utterly made-up narrative.

The GOP needs to approach its future less like Newt Gingrinch trying to recreate the Reagan Revolution, and more like Don Kirshner trying to recreate Beatlemania, which he did very successfully in the form of The Monkees.

272 Catttt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:41pm

re: #119 debutaunt

My name is debutaunt and I'm addicted to LGF.

Hi debutaunt. Keep coming back!

273 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:46pm

re: #256 Moe Katz

Come home annefrance, all is forgiven.

LOL!

274 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:45:46pm

re: #174 gregg

Could someone explain California to me? Obama 6.1 million to McCain 3.7 million, yet Prop 8 lost.

Thank SF Mayor (super lib) Gavin Newsom, his money quote used over in commercial spots - "Whether You Like It Or Not" His perceived push it down your throat, like it or not, and the folks pushed back.

275 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:46:05pm

re: #227 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Charles has nailed the precise point. It was about Craig's underlying character (or lack thereof), NOT his day-to-day behavior.

Wouldn't it be refreshing if the Dems held their bad boys as accountable as we do with ours?

They give their own a pass no matter what and so does the MSM. Their rank hypocrisy is nauseating.

276 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:46:17pm

With the Dems going so far, it shouldn't be too much to expect the Republicans to stand in the middle. Socals stand in the dust-bin of history, where few rational individuals are comfortable inhabiting.

277 beblebrox  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:46:34pm

re: #112 Walter L. Newton

Thank you. Personally, I keep one in the living room, but that's only for guests.

that's it? I have a laptop in all 3 bedrooms, the living room, the bar, and a small one i keep just to take outside on nice days.

278 DistantThunder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:46:35pm

re: #194 VioletTiger

I think it is hard to gage social issues because there is no longer large groups committed to any broad set of ideas. You find one group that says no abortion, another that opposes only things like partial birth abortion, etc. Then you have groups that say no gay marriage, but want civil unions, vs no same sex unions at all. The best option is to stay out of people's business whenever possbile.

Stay out of their business until your kindergardener brings home literature ie. Pledge cards from the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender - GLBT. Coalition as recently happened. Why should a state employee be allowed to make a decision about when it is appropriate to explain these terms to very young children?
To me that is unnecessarily aggressive and intrusive.

(We have an acquaitance who is transgendered, and called us one night in tears that "she" had made a mistake. "She" has now returned to living as a man, as much as is physically possible given his limitations.) These are not simple topics.

279 Kragar  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:46:38pm

re: #233 arethusa

From the Corner on Prop 8:

Funny, the Prop 8 opponents were accusing Mormon missionaries as the primary force behind Yes on 8, which led to a pretty nasty commerical to that effect

280 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:46:40pm

re: #232 MadJadBad

I think the Republicans need to shift closer to the Libertarians. Social issues have to be framed in the context of the Constitution. For example, abortion should not be argued as a religious issue, but rather a human rights issues. The question should be to define when a fetus becomes a "person" and is thus endowed with the natural rights guaranteed in the Constitution, because the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness trumps the right to privacy. When you can argue with facts, science and some common sense you can change people's minds.

Individual rights- not "human rights". Again- this social issue should be getting dealt with by the religious community. If it was, there would be NO need for government involvement. Put the social issues back where they belong- in religious institutions.

281 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:46:41pm

re: #231 Hooray for Captain Spaulding

Say WHAT?
Since when is creationism taught in Catholic schools?
Hell, I'm 53 and was never taught creationism.

Also went to Catholic School - I was not taught creationism, but evolution. I was taught in religion class the Bible's description of the creation of the world, but also told that it was an article of faith only, not of fact or science.

282 Lorenska  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:46:48pm

re: #185 rightymouse

When it comes to legislating social behaviors, all I know is that I want the government as far away from me as possible when it comes to telling me what I cannot or cannot do as a free person in a free society, how to raise my kids and educate them or worrying about whether someone is going to be offended by my behaviors that do not violate their life.

This is not the government's business, whether one is a Republican or Democrat.

We have a couple of choices in life - liberty and the ensuing responsibilities that come with liberty or force of government to dictate/control our lives.

AMEN - like I said before, if I'm hurting no one, leave me the hell alone.

283 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:46:49pm

re: #268 debutaunt

McCain's inability to articulate the pros of capitalism didn't do much good either.


My friends, when it comes, my friends, to the art, my friends, of articulation, my friends, McCain was, my friends, up a creek, my friends, without, my friends, a paddle, my friends.

284 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:46:54pm
285 Catttt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:46:57pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

Sure, she deserves some credit, but big fucking deal, that's not why McCain brought her on board. Hell, if he was looking for a social conservative with credentials, he had a shit load of people to select from. Are you telling me she was the MOST credentialed and the MOST accomplished politician that he could have selected?

McCAIN WANTED 1) A babe, 2) mom, 3) family values, 4) gun owner, 5) outdoorsy and 6) fertile. It was the "homespun" gal persona that they were marketing.

I'm just annoyed that Todd won't be Second Gentleman. I was looking forward to that.

286 OldLineTexan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:46:57pm

re: #263 Creeping Eruption

I feel that there has been an under-current of anti-intellectualism in the whole Republican party lately, not just in her candidacy that many people found offensive.

"O" worship being so cerebral.

/world's biggest marketing campaign just wrapped up a successful sale

287 Cognito  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:47:01pm

Wow. Obama just selected Emanuel as his chief of staff.

288 shanester  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:47:04pm

Palin is not a Pentacostal. She grew up in that church but belong to a non-denom church now.

I grew up Catholic, that doesn't make me Catholic now.

289 moonstone  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:47:11pm

I love how Palin's Christianity is so offensive to everyone; while Obama's church was not a problem at all.

What is "the usual GOP anti-gay line?" I know mostly Republicans and not one of them is anti-gay. They may be anti-gay marriage, but that doesn't make someone anti-gay.

290 VioletTiger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:47:13pm

I found this quite an amusing spoof...or perhaps reality

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

291 Boolz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:47:16pm

as far as those of you folks who don't want religious people in your party at all, or say they're welcome as long as they keep their mouths shut, well...you're probably outnumbered. Last I checked about 70% of this country identified themselves as some branch of Christianity, another 20% identified themselves as on non-Christian faith (but still believing in something) and a little less than 10% identifying themselves as atheists. So for all of you who think you'd just cruise to victory will that last segment of society as your rallying base, you MIGHT want to take a refresher course in mathematics

292 Basho  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:47:27pm

re: #187 kynna

I do approve of the fight to keep abortion from being a go-to, but I'm not certain legislation is the answer to that one so much as information.

Absolutely. I saw an ad on the NYC subway for a charity that assists and supports pregnant women until they give birth as an alternative to abortion. That's how it's done. Abstinence-only education, restrictions on birth control, and other government "solutions" have only POed a lot of people into picking more left-leaning candidates.

293 freetoken  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:47:36pm

Concur with the basic ideas of Frum and Charles.

It is not that I am against all that the social conservatives desire. E.g., I do believe parents of minors should be notified of a request for an abortion.

However, the polarization (i.e., the hardline us-versus-them) methods that so many social conservative leaders have taken is a very damaging approach. Governance is about compromise and coalition building, and if you are not will to compromise then frankly you are not going to govern (or do so for very long.)

So count me in the gang hoping that the GOP embraces more Mitts and Rudys, and fewer Sarahs and Bobbys.

294 Catttt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:48:06pm

re: #287 Cognito

Wow. Obama just selected Emanuel as his chief of staff.

Setting the tone. I guess Jack the Ripper wasn't available.

295 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:48:21pm

re: #238 bosforus

Large influxes of illegal immigrants is not good for any economy.

So, let's fix that. Good ol' maligned George had some pretty good ideas about how to deal with immigrants with both grace & justice. But, the Know-Nothings (mispelt that last time) would have none of it.

296 IgofAntioch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:48:35pm

The Republicans lost because for eight years we heard that "Bush is a chimp" and that the Republicans were resposible for every evil in the world. Eight years of that in the daily press and the lies become fixed as truths. It had nothing to do with social conservatism. There was no coherent message and the Republican brand was so badly damaged in the psychics of the people. That is why "change" played so well. No one knows what it means but heck people fell for it.

297 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:48:45pm
298 Intrepid  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:48:52pm

re: #197 brickthruplateglasswindow

This whole Palin alienated such and such a group takes away from the fundamental issue which is/was McCain was a weak choice from the start.

As evidenced by the fact that the crowds she drew at her campaign events dwarfed the crowds McCain drew at his.

I believe Sarah Palin is electable by a broad spectrum of the conservative movement, because she has proven that when she had the opportunity to push a socially conservative agenda in Alaskan politics, she chose not to. She vetoed that bill that cut off benefits to same-sex couples because she viewed it as being unconstitutional.

That shows she is more of a mind to follow the law and not her own personal religious beliefs. And I like that.

299 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:48:55pm

re: #248 cinnabar

Someone may have made this point, but why would the party want to move to a more moderate or libertarian point of view in the wake of 3 states (two of which went heavily for "0") voting against gay marriage? It seems that there be voters in that direction.

No - many of those voters in CA at least (African-Americans and Latinos) voted Democratic as well in the actual contests.

300 scratch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:49:00pm

Actually, this topic brings to mind a question: I've been offline for a while...anyone catch the election last night? How did things turn out?

301 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:49:19pm

I completely agree. Social conservatism is the sort of thing the Taliban practice - trying to ram their religious beliefs down everyone's throats. It flies in the face of core Conservative values that espouse limited, non-intrusive government that keeps meddling in the lives of individuals to the barest minimum possible, while providing a country where everyone - and that means everyone - is free to pursue their own aspirations and hold their own beliefs.

I'm certain that the pro-life contingent will chime in at this point and as, "What about the babies rights?" At the bottom, this is a religious viewpoint, and has no place in the political arena of a country whose Constitution explicitly forbids the imposition of any religion by the government. There are many who disagree with you, and they have as much right to pursue their beliefs as you do, free of any impediments and constraints imposed by you or anyone else's religious convictions. In return, you get to live in a country where you will never be forced to have an abortion or to perform one if you choose not to.

I also agree with the statement that Bobby Jindahl's support of creationism establishes him as a non-candidate as far as I'm concerned. This is a real pity. Jindahl is obviously a smart, likable and otherwise admirably conservative guy. But creationism is not science - it's religion. And the goal of creationists is once again to ram their own perverted, blasphemous mutilation of Christianity down the throats of everyone in the nation. Creationism has nothing to do with science, and everything to do with religious extremism and totalitarianism. Creationism, aided by government, is about as anti-Conservative a thing as I can imagine - a massive intrusion of government into the classrooms designed to indoctrinate children into a cult.

As Conservatives, we should be rejecting such overreaching of government authority by instinct, not supporting it or promoting it. Government ought to leave it's citizens alone, to as large a degree as possible. And it's from this stance that everything the people actually like about Conservatism flows - smaller government, lower taxes, less regulation, constraint of activist courts, and all those things that rein in government rather than expand it.

The country as a whole has moved toward the right over the last several decades, and it shows no sign of stopping that trend. Democrats, not being inherently stupid, have sensed the abandonment of principle and the embrace of policies antithetical to this movement by the Republicans in recent years, and have begun moving to provide the ideology that people are looking for - fiscal and political Conservatism, without the intrusive politics imposed by the religious far right. So far, the Republican response has not been good: they have beat the drum of Conservatism while completely abandoning the fiscal responsibility which is so tightly coupled with the movement. They have pursued increasingly intrusive laws and policies. And under their watch, the size of government has expanded enormously.

Once can argue that George Bush is not and never was a Conservative, and this would be a true statement. But Conservatives have been strongly supportive of his policies, nonetheless, at a time when the held more than sufficient power to quash such policies and to do so without penalty. Instead, they have failed to act.

Sorry, this is getting rather long. I could say as much about the Democrats, their currently fractured membership and their own drift toward Conservatism, but I'm running out of space. In ten years, the Democrats may provide a comfortable home for true Conservatives. But that time hasn't yet arrived. It will, though, unless the Republicans get back to basics, and start each day by chanting, "The best government is the least government" and taking that message to heart.

302 J.S.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:49:44pm

re: #250 faraway

I think the problem with Palin was that she was made to look ridiculous by the MSM (which had Zero qualms about re-playing Saturday Night Live skits -- mocking her endlessly and portraying her as 1) an idiot 2) a nutbar religious freak 3) daffy. It was creul, unfair, and disgusting -- but, hey, that's what the MSM is all about nowadays. Again, the MSM is despicable...but they're going to be around for a bit longer...so how they deal with candidates has to be taken into consideration.)

303 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:49:45pm

re: #204 DistantThunder

That's the argument that men make in countries where it is not illegal to beat your wife and children within an inch of their lives - they say, don't legislate morality, and stay out of my home.


But wife beating is illegal in this country. Morallity can be legislated to a certain extent in order to prevent chaos (eg: murder is a crime and Thou Shalt Not Kill is a Commandment, etc) but please let me be the judge on wether or not I wish to watch a pron flick, or choose to love my friends who are gay.

304 Quad Mocha Matti  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:49:46pm

re: #119 debutaunt

My name is debutaunt and I'm addicted to LGF.

I'm thinking that there's gonna have to be a new 12 step program for this - Lizards Anonymous...nah. Suck it!

305 Kragar  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:49:49pm

How long before he selects Olbermann as Press Secretary?

306 Alan2  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:49:49pm

My jaw dropped when I read David Frum's article.

"Hey Republicans, become even less conservative if you want to win"

Somehow I don't think that's the message republicans and conservatives were sending yesterday.

But then again, if you weren't ever really a conservative, then I can see how you would want that to be the message.

307 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:50:09pm

re: #275 rightymouse

Wouldn't it be refreshing if the Dems held their bad boys as accountable as we do with ours?

They give their own a pass no matter what and so does the MSM. Their rank hypocrisy is nauseating.

I agree. Did you see my #107 ?

308 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:50:12pm

re: #277 beblebrox

that's it? I have a laptop in all 3 bedrooms, the living room, the bar, and a small one i keep just to take outside on nice days.

You understand I was talking about dildoes? Not computers. See my earlier posts.

309 calcajun  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:50:19pm

re: #274 unrealizedviewpoint

Thank SF Mayor (super lib) Gavin Newsom, his money quote used over in commercial spots - "Whether You Like It Or Not" His perceived push it down your throat, like it or not, and the folks pushed back.

What many people loose sight of is that in 2000, we passed a prop that stood for traditional marriage--and the Cal. Supreme Ct. ruled it unconstitutional. That alone angered many in the electorate. Now, take that and couple it (pun intended) with the domestic partner laws here, and the issue becomes almost one of semantics. Homosexual couples can form civil unions and get the same benefits as marriage--just not a true traditional marriage.

The issue, in short, dealt with the fact that marriage is a privilege, not a right, and that to hold otherwise opened the door to all sorts of potential weirdness.

310 sagamoregal  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:50:24pm

I strongly disagree that Sarah Palin has to be pushed to the side if the new Party decides to play down social conservatism to save its soul.

I and several of my Republican friends (male and female), who are moderate to liberal on social issues ADORED (heck, we WORSHIPPED) Sarah and finally could get excited about the Republican party again .

John McCain and his team were so ill prepared to handle someone of Sarah's character, fortitude and sheer happiness in her own skin. I think John thought all political women had to be cynical, unhappy hags like Hillary Clinton or Olympia Snow. If he and his inept team had stayed out of the Troopergate business and let her go back up to Juneau for a couple of days, she would have handled the whole matter like she had planned to before she was picked as his running mate. It would have not blown up like it did.

She has that "frontier spirit" that my Theodore (Roosevelt) loved so much. She also is the only politician of any stripe who has any hope of being a modern-day "trustbuster." Does anyone think she would have f--ked up the bailout mess like McCain did. I think she would have dressed down GWB and Paulson in public and told them that free market capitalism meant that Goldman Sachs had to take it up the arse. She's a driven, born leader who knows what she needs to do to come back on the national level and appeal to voters of different persuasions. She has a lot more "blood letting" to do up in the Alaska political swampland. It will only build up her street cred.

The next time she won't be burdened with the avuncular, old "let me reach across the aisle" uncertain leader. Whatever party she's a member of, I want to be a member of too.

311 Learned Mother of Zion  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:50:24pm

re: #300 scratch

Actually, this topic brings to mind a question: I've been offline for a while...anyone catch the election last night? How did things turn out?

Where have you been, in a cave in the high Andes?

312 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:50:26pm

re: #250 faraway

Palin's Pentecostalism? Did she start speaking in tongues or play with snakes some time on the campaign trail and I missed it?

You apparently missed the fact that she belongs to a Pentecostal church.

313 CIA Reject  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:50:40pm

re: #297 Iron Fist

Yeah, he's planning a bi-partisan and inclusive administration.

Yeah, Marxists AND Leninists...

314 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:50:42pm

re: #180 Pawn of the Oppressor

"I think Roe v Wade was a bad decision"
"It's good to be here in the real America"
And the GOP happily let the Dems paint Palin as some kind of rube who believes dinosaurs and people lived at the same time. They let that slide, and it stuck.

Palin was seen as a divider to a significant number of people. Obama preached unity. The GOP played loud and dumb, and it turned off a big chunk of people.

Believe it or don't, but that's what they're saying elsewhere.

Those were single lines from stomp speeches. Social issues were not discussed at legnth ever. I do stand corrected however. At the VP debate, Biden and Palin agreed that same sex marriage is abad idea.

Palin seems like a smart lady to me, but that Couric interview was a disaster. Palin never recovered credibility.

315 UncleBuck  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:50:56pm

Back to basics!

Learn from the Conservative Party in the UK - keep the infighting behind closed doors, retain some traditional core Republican values,and seize the initiative.

We have a fantastic opportunity to rebuild over the next four years,let's not waste our time simply sniping at the GOP, let's be constructive: show responsibility and lead by example -when a GOP idea is bad,explain why it's bad,in simple terms,when it's a good idea,support it. We don't want to emulate the Democrat's behavior,we need to show the electorate we are more than capable in opposition,but better suited in office.

We can grow from this,let's make the Republican Party the big tent it once was,and rise to victory in 2012.

316 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:02pm

re: #282 Lorenska

AMEN - like I said before, if I'm hurting no one, leave me the hell alone.

I agree completely.

The government has no power over our lives unless we give it to them.

317 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:03pm

re: #222 Honorary Yooper

Pretty fair analysis. Its sad that the GOP needs to emphazise clean and transparent gov'mt. That used to be a given.

318 Random_Lizard  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:11pm

Starting to think, is it time for a new political party? Some Democrats are getting a bit too liberal, supporting regimes which are just wrong, and far too willing to tax the middle class.

On the other hand, some of the conservatives on the right are just getting too right wing for the average American to support them. Yes, I believe in Israel's right to exist, I don't think medicine should be socialized. However, I don't believe in creationism, I believe in gay rights, and, I am pro choice and because of this, I feel somewhat alienated by the Republican party. I feel the same way about the Libertarian party because of their stance on Israel, and a woman's right to chose.

I'm starting to wonder if centrists on both sides should come together, and start some type of party that is the happy medium between the two? Less social conservatism, but with the understanding that there are still enemies of the US out there, who we should keep at bay as far as foreign policy is concerned.

319 guy_philly  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:17pm

It boils down to this:

It's the economy, stupid!

People want to keep their money and they will blame the top politicians in office when the economy takes their wealth away.

We needed Romney! (never an option in the South, unfortunately)

320 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:20pm

re: #290 VioletTiger

I found this quite an amusing spoof...or perhaps reality

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

The Onion made this election bearable!
-Magical Voting Booth Transforms Clearheaded Americans Into Reactionist Morons
-Black Man Given Nation's Worst Job
-Voting Machines Elect One Of Their Own As President

321 Lizard by the Bay  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:20pm

re: #296 IgofAntioch

Eight years of that in the daily press and the lies become fixed as truths.

Bush deserves blame for never setting the record straight, thinking he was looking so "Presidential" by staying above it all while his popularity sank by 10 points per month.

322 Opinionated  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:29pm

I'm a "baby killer" Giuliani Republican.

I believe in very competent center right policies which produce highly successful results.

If Republicans don't move to that model- if they want to continue to force their personal social beliefs onto others- then the party will die.

Maybe it's time for a new party which will attract normal people who are now sick of the far Right and with experiencing President Obama and his Congress will get quickly sick of the far Left.

323 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:33pm

re: #231 Hooray for Captain Spaulding

Say WHAT?
Since when is creationism taught in Catholic schools?
Hell, I'm 53 and was never taught creationism.

Should have been more clear...i was speaking of religion class and Genesis.

Blame the sinus infection with accompanying vertigo.

324 mcangus1  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:35pm

LGF is wrong on all accounts. We lost for several reasons. Outspent 2:1. Extremely bias media. Poor campaign by McCain. The other major cause and I believe this to be the major cause of our loss was it is getting harder to tell a Republican from a Democrat! If we move close to the left then it will be impossible to distinguish between the two parties.

Lets run Ronald Reagan (Ronald in a skirt - Sarah) and well take it all.

Finally, if moving to left is the means to success then explain how ultra liberal California voted to ban gay marriage?

Can't deny that fact!

PS I do love this website and normally agree with it. this and its anti Intelligent Design position are my only points of contention.

325 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:35pm
326 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:42pm

Yup. David Frum is an idiot.
Buckley is spinning.

327 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:44pm

re: #42 imploder

"Morals" are what laws and based on and values are derived from. To suggest totally eviscerating "morals" from the public square is to suggest taking everything off the table.

Some laws that are based on "moral values" of for the good of society regardless of whether or not they are "socially conservative" or "religiously influenced". Murder, rape, theft, arson, etc. are illegal for the benefit of society, and that goes beyond being based on "morals".

No one is suggesting a total evisceration of "morals" from the public square when they suggest that gov't should not be in the business of "legislating morals". Nor do I think that keeping gov't out of the business of doing so would take "everything off the table".

328 bombay311  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:51:51pm

You will never be able to unify a party on a social platform.
Almost every R will be able to agree on fiscal conservatism and strong national defense. Everyone however will have a different tolerance for just about every social issue you can think of.
Probably the only thing we can agree on is the govt should stay out of it.

329 Irenike  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:52:06pm

I disagree that this election was a referendum on conservative social values. How do you explain the fact that in California, millions of Obama supporters voted in favor of Proposition 8?

330 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:52:12pm

re: #288 shanester

Palin is not a Pentacostal. She grew up in that church but belong to a non-denom church now.

I grew up Catholic, that doesn't make me Catholic now.

She didn't just "grow up" in that church. You need to check the facts on this. She attended well into adulthood.

331 dmjung  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:52:13pm

re: #39 Ojoe

This is not an age of faith,

Its still an age of faith, its just that what people put their faith in has changed (or maybe not changed, maybe just more overt in public at this point.)

Its been noted before, but the way many people treat their favorite social/environmental cause, political party, president-elect, climate warming change, humanity/humanism, etc is very religious/faith-oriented in nature.

332 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:52:30pm

re: #287 Cognito

Wow. Obama just selected Emanuel as his chief of staff.

Whoa - I heard he offered, but did Emmanuel accept?

So much for the most bipartisan government! Kind of went the way of that "most ethical Congress in history."

333 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:52:30pm

re: #275 rightymouse

Wouldn't it be refreshing if the Dems held their bad boys as accountable as we do with ours?

Problem is, this is not an issue with the Dems. But, because the Reps keep making it one, then they are constrained to live by their own rules.

334 hman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:53:01pm

You create a straw man of the social conservative, then knock it down. Reagan was both and Roe v. Wade was not reversed under him and won't be. If McCain had been both a true conservative and articulate and aggressive, he would have won. The problem is not "in our stars, but in ourselves."

If you listened to Rush today and will listen to Newt in the future, you will see how we can win and not give up our values. Listen to Bobby Jindal speak and you will know the problem was the messenger, not the message. By the way, Charles, your position on "Creationism" seems more an obsession that a rational point of view. As a Christian biologist, I believe God created the world and its inhabitants and most assuredly used physical laws and evolution to do it. A great many scientists (physicists and biologists) believe the same thing. No one I know believes that Genesis is other than a lovely metaphor. Get over it.

335 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:53:11pm

re: #223 calcajun

The battle now is for ideas--not personality. The idea that Jindal and others like him are ineligible for higher office due to their local support of a doctrine some find offensive is idiotic; you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I disagree with your conclusion, but this raises a good point about Jindal in relation to Obama. Obama is (or, rather was) a self-described Socialist, who spent 20 years as a member of a racist hate group, defends a Communist revolutionary who murdered dozens while trying to overthrow the government, and lists a supporter of Arab terrorism as a major ideological influence.

In other words, he supports a variety of doctrines that most Americans find offensive, yet he still won the presidency.

From these facts I draw the opposite conclusion to yours. The battle now is for personality, not ideas. People are willing to overlook anything that a candidate believes, if he makes for an inspiring made-for-TV movie. I don't know Jindal well enough to say if he'd make a good matinee idol, but I guess his social conservatism might not turn out to be such a problem per se.

336 Rednek  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:53:15pm

The Republican's will need to jettison the religious right in order to survive?

If that is the case, then the culture wars are over.
These people will now be considered radicals in 21st century America.

337 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:53:30pm
338 JustABill  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:53:34pm

Someone needs to point out to Mr. Frum the results of the Gay Marriage Amendment... This year, with higher than normal liberal turnout, in, of all places California, voters amended their constitution in a socially conservative way. How can we say that socially conservative issues are a drag on the GOP.

While I agree that some of the excesses that come from the socially conservative wing of the party need to be tempered, throwing them "under the bus" will destroy the destroy the GOP. Possibly giving rise to an unviable third party, guaranteeing the democrats electoral success for years to come...

339 Kenneth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:53:35pm

Here is a perfect illustration of why we cannot believe a word the media says. The CNN "hologram reporter" was a complete and utter fraud. There was absolutely nothing holographic about it. What the hell were they thinking? Are people really taken in by that stupid blue-screen stunt? Why didn't they just beam her in like Star Trek? I hope Blitzer is ashamed of himself for participating in that silly charade.

Simply pathetic.

340 ArmyWife  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:53:59pm

I agree in part, and respectfully disagree in large part with this. Republicans have ignored their base - social AND fiscal conservatives. Social conservatism doesn't, and shouldn't, equal Fundamentalist Christians. To me, we roll it all back to what our founding father's advocated. We throw political correctness away, we throw "free to be you and me" socialist indoctrination crap away, too. We don't advocate moral relativity. There is, in fact, a right and wrong no matter what part of the city your reside. In schools we teach reading, writing, science, math and music (OK, fine, art too). If you want to teach creationism or spaghetti monster theology at home, be my guest, but it certainly doesn't need to be taught in an academic setting. Communism, Womens studies and social justice isn't required in academia, either. But we don't need to be afraid of Judeo-Christian values, those are core to our Country's greatness. Bring back Christmas! Get rid of Kwanzaa! We go back to being a melting pot where we are Americans with an American culture, and damn proud of it!

We advocate accountability and responsibility no matter what color you are or where you fall in the social strata. We don't tolerate discrimination at any level or from any one. We stop allowing citizens to wallow in victim hood and inspire self reliance. We take back our courts and advocate strict constructionalism. We stop making excuses and we stop capitulating to the left in hopes they will lean back just a bit - they won't. What we've gotten for this is the left indoctrinating in schools and universities, churning out citizens who don't understand the government isn't and shouldn't be our solution to each and every problem. We need government, but we don't need as much as we have right now.

341 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:54:01pm

re: #291 Boolz

I would bet that many of those people also don't want others to impose their own moral code on them. That's the issue here, not whether someone is Christian or not.

342 mcangus1  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:54:05pm

re: #8 uncle_monkey

Well said!

343 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:54:07pm

re: #250 faraway

Palin's Pentecostalism? Did she start speaking in tongues or play with snakes some time on the campaign trail and I missed it?

No, but you don't think McCain took that into consideration as being a PLUS, a bone thrown to the far religious right.

Palin didn't have to get "struck my the holy spirit" on the campaign trail to attract the religious right. Just knowing she attended a Pentecostal church was enough.

Don't tell me that wasn't part of the appeal, really, I'm not that stupid.

344 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:54:10pm

re: #291 Boolz

as far as those of you folks who don't want religious people in your party at all, or say they're welcome as long as they keep their mouths shut, well...you're probably outnumbered. Last I checked about 70% of this country identified themselves as some branch of Christianity, another 20% identified themselves as on non-Christian faith (but still believing in something) and a little less than 10% identifying themselves as atheists. So for all of you who think you'd just cruise to victory will that last segment of society as your rallying base, you MIGHT want to take a refresher course in mathematics

And yet, a good portion of your alleged 70% went for Obama. How does that work?

345 Cognito  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:54:11pm

re: #332 arethusa

Whoa - I heard he offered, but did Emmanuel accept?

So much for the most bipartisan government! Kind of went the way of that "most ethical Congress in history."

Tough to imagine Emanuel would reject the offer, really. It is, in the Godfather sense, an offer he can't refuse, politically.

346 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:54:11pm

re: #296 IgofAntioch

The Republicans lost because for eight years we heard that "Bush is a chimp" and that the Republicans were resposible for every evil in the world. Eight years of that in the daily press and the lies become fixed as truths. It had nothing to do with social conservatism. There was no coherent message and the Republican brand was so badly damaged in the psychics of the people. That is why "change" played so well. No one knows what it means but heck people fell for it.

It was only 5 weeks ago. Does everybody forget that McCain was ahead in most all polls just prior to the economic meltdown? His statement: "The fundamentals of the economy are sound." And his running back to DC to save us by voting for the Bail-Out Package is what cost us this election.

347 Lorenska  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:54:17pm

re: #303 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

But wife beating is illegal in this country. Morallity can be legislated to a certain extent in order to prevent chaos (eg: murder is a crime and Thou Shalt Not Kill is a Commandment, etc) but please let me be the judge on wether or not I wish to watch a pron flick, or choose to love my friends who are gay.

Comparing "stay out of my personal business" to "let me beat the hell out of my wife" is hardly a fair analogy. Everytime I've said "leave me be," it's been prefaced with "as long as I'm not hurting anyone," and that's what everyone here is saying - there is a very large chasm between the two ideas, and it's unfair to compare them.

348 alien_mind  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:54:19pm

re: #289 moonstone

I love how Palin's Christianity is so offensive to everyone; while Obama's church was not a problem at all.

What is "the usual GOP anti-gay line?" I know mostly Republicans and not one of them is anti-gay. They may be anti-gay marriage, but that doesn't make someone anti-gay.


exactly. Obama gets elected coming from a church that practices Black Liberation Theology and whose Rev. was openly rascist to white people and blamed America for 9/11. But somehow because Sarah Palin is pro-life and attends church, we're supposed to believe that people were driven away from the ticket to OBAMA? please.

349 Christopher Luebcke  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:54:35pm

re: #259 gopninja

Here here. I believe in a strong military, and one that is open to volunteers regardless of race, creed, gender or sexual orientation. Where's my party? (I) is where.

350 Reluctant Democrat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:54:38pm

I disagree with Frum on one significant point: Dems are NOT growing more fiscally conservative! Every liberal I talked to eventually got around to the fact that they think government should pay for all health care or college or whatever and that's why they were voting for Obama. They want FREE GOVERNMENT CHEESE and then say how they're against redistributionism.

As an independent (former Democrat, college educated) I voted for Palin because of her economic message. She proved she is fiscally responsible. She walked the talk. She kept her social views out of her government.

If the Reps don't get return to fiscal conservatism, they're dead for decades. Jeff Flake gets it; Frum doesn't.

351 Lee Coller  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:55:01pm
Those days are long gone. Since 1988, Democrats have become more conservative on economics – and Republicans have become more conservative on social issues.

I don't agree with either of those statements (thus the downding). With the possible exception of Bill Clinton, what is the evidence that the dems have become more conservative on economics. Certainly not Obama, Kerry, Gore?

I don't think the Republicans have changed on social issues over the years. The Democrats definitely have.

352 devil in baggy pants  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:55:03pm

I couldn't disagree with this analysis more.

We lost because the GOP has lost it's true conservative moorings. Reagan would have torn Obama a new asshole and smiled while doing it.

Moving to the center simply moves the goalposts! Moving to the center alienates the base more than it includes moderates.

Understand that Sarah Palin brought out the base to vote. Had she not been on the ticket, Mc Cain would have lost by an even larger margin.

It is capitulation and appeasement to leftist ideals, pure and simple.

353 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:55:15pm

I think the reason why socially conservative positions win on ballots is because for the most part, Americans are conservative. We have an easy target on our back, however, because of the religious right. While people may agree on a lot of conservative positions, they don't want religion shoved down their throat. Many people feel the issue of religion is deeply personal, and want to be left alone on this point.

I will say it again- I have spoken with many people who would be open republicans but for the fact the more religious conservatives make them uneasy.

354 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:55:25pm

re: #296 IgofAntioch

The Republicans lost because for eight years we heard that "Bush is a chimp" and that the Republicans were resposible for every evil in the world. Eight years of that in the daily press and the lies become fixed as truths. It had nothing to do with social conservatism. There was no coherent message and the Republican brand was so badly damaged in the psychics of the people. That is why "change" played so well. No one knows what it means but heck people fell for it.

And, they are about to learn.

Actually, I agree with you. Eight years of unchallenged propaganda took a terrible toll. Especially among young voters who had no context (Like stagflation & how destructive that was).

355 eon  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:55:29pm

re: #150 J.S.

but it may be that the MSM will wear itself out (in terms of credibility) -- so that even the most moronic of voters may eventually tire of hearing The Zero's "blessed and wondrous accomplishments" preached to them day in and day out..they could (eventually?) tire of these nostrums. And then turn to the blogs?

Very likely. The Soviet Union's collapse began when people payed more attention to samizdats (the Russian "underground press"), Radio Free Europe, and the Voice of America than they did to Pravda, Tass, and Radio Moscow (which actually called itself Radio Truth for a brief period before the end).

Of course, the Soviet Union may just have been the overture to the reborn Russian Empire under Tsar Vladimir I, too.

cheers

eon

356 Basho  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:55:32pm

re: #301 SixDegrees

Sorry, this is getting rather long.

Not long enough... that was a brilliant post!

357 Quad Mocha Matti  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:55:39pm
Now It Can Be Told: The Ad McCain Refused to Runjammiewearingfool.blogspot.com (329)

I think I'm going to be nauseous seeing such an opportnity slip away.
JammieWearingFool Nov 5, 2008 at 11:10:10 am



This one's still better.

358 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:55:39pm

re: #305 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

How long before he selects Olbermann as Press Secretary?

I'd go with Rashid Khalidi. He already has experience being the press spokesman for a major political organization that's close to Obama's heart.

359 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:55:50pm

re: #174 gregg

Could someone explain California to me? Obama 6.1 million to McCain 3.7 million, yet Prop 8 lost.

Many minorities in CA have socially conservative values, yet are under the mistaken assumption that the Democrats are the party that will be better for them.

I think that is pretty much it.

360 Opinionated  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:55:51pm

re: #174 gregg

Could someone explain California to me? Obama 6.1 million to McCain 3.7 million, yet Prop 8 lost.

Most people don't want a government sanctioned Gay Marriage any more then they want an anti Gay Marriage Amendment to the US Constitution.

Both are extreme positions.

People have a live and let live attitude but just don't want to be pushed in either a pro gay or anti gay direction.

361 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:56:16pm
362 Pete-billy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:56:38pm

Rush said exactly the same today.
Rush Limbaugh: Time to cleanse Republican Party

...The broadcaster (Rush) called last night's results "an opportunity for cleansing ... like we haven't seen in a long time."

I

363 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:56:50pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

McCAIN WANTED 1) A babe, 2) mom, 3) family values, 4) gun owner, 5) outdoorsy and 6) fertile. It was the "homespun" gal persona that they were marketing.

I don't disagree with any of that (except maybe the fertile one, which I think you are joking about), but before any of those items, McCain wanted to run on the idea of reform. McCain hates Bush even though they agree on most policy issues. Why? Because Bush did not do a good job of holding folks responsible for mismanagement or overspending.

All that said - I wish McCain had picked Romney in retrospect.

364 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:57:03pm

re: #295 unreconstructed rebel

So, let's fix that. Good ol' maligned George had some pretty good ideas about how to deal with immigrants with both grace & justice. But, the Know-Nothings (mispelt that last time) would have none of it.

Personally, I think the immigration issue is so muddled (not necessarily divisive, just muddled) that there will be no solution that "makes sense" to everyone. Hope I get proved wrong at some point.

365 MadJadBad  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:57:06pm

re: #121 lawhawk
You are dead on. The GOP completely failed with putting the blame on the economic collapse where it rightfully should be - on Barney Frank, et al. Unfortunately, a large portion of the population think the president controls all government and don't realize that Congress controls the federal budget. When McCain said things like "this is not the time to point fingers" he was wrong. With Bush being a lame duck, he should have called out those responsible loud and clear. He should have even called for them to resign their committee seats.

366 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:57:08pm

re: #147 SouthAmericanWay

I disagree with your assessment, Charles: this was certainly not a referendum on Social Conservatism - and if it was, Prop 8 in CA, and similar measures in AZ and FLA, showed that Social Conservatism won once again.

And, with the exception of AZ, the Rep. ticket lost. That tells me that not all so-cons are behind the GOP, as some folks seem to think.

367 Born_to_lose  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:57:20pm

Good Golly! It's not even been 24 hours, and already there are a slew of "disgruntaleds" over at Yahoo Finance. This article is what it is, but the reader responses were so spot on:

[Link: finance.yahoo.com...]

368 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:57:20pm

re: #246 DeafDog

Yes, but that wasn't my question. This election had absolutely nothing to do with social issues. Zero. Nada. Zippo.

It was all about the economy.

I agree.

369 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:57:27pm

re: #347 Lorenska

Comparing "stay out of my personal business" to "let me beat the hell out of my wife" is hardly a fair analogy. Everytime I've said "leave me be," it's been prefaced with "as long as I'm not hurting anyone," and that's what everyone here is saying - there is a very large chasm between the two ideas, and it's unfair to compare them.


I was answering comment 204.

That's the argument that men make in countries where it is not illegal to beat your wife and children within an inch of their lives - they say, don't legislate morality, and stay out of my home.
370 seekeroftruth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:57:40pm

re: #146 DistantThunder

Peggy Noonan was calling for Unity today - that like Apple and Microsoft calling for unity - What? We want a marketplace of competetive ideas, definitely not unity.

Exactly. I don't want her telling us how to behave. I wish the Republicans could read this thread. There are many great ideas and thoughts expressed here by some very smart and diverse Americans.

371 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:57:44pm

Yeah- Buckley is spinning alright!

372 Lorenska  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:57:45pm

re: #316 rightymouse

I agree completely.

The government has no power over our lives unless we give it to them.

And unfortunately, I'm afraid that last night, we did just that. As I mentioned before, Obama's quote is "the Constitution focuses too much on what the fed and states CAN'T do and not enough on what we SHOULD do for the citizens." Never mind that that's what the Constitution was written for - to keep govt the hell out of people's lives - he wants the govt to run EVERYTHING and EVERYONE, and with a democratic congress behind him, I'm afraid that's where we're headed.

373 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:57:52pm

re: #341 arethusa

I would bet that many of those people also don't want others to impose their own moral code on them. That's the issue here, not whether someone is Christian or not.

Exactly.

Nobody's being asked to give up religious values... Just stop beating on them like some kind of tribal drum. It's an image thing.

374 Opinionated  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:57:53pm

re: #352 devil in baggy pants

Understand that Sarah Palin brought out the base to vote. Had she not been on the ticket, Mc Cain would have lost by an even larger margin.

Elections in the US are won in the middle- as this one was.

Palin did McCain no good at all.

375 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:58:00pm

re: #334 hman

By the way, Charles, your position on "Creationism" seems more an obsession that a rational point of view. As a Christian biologist, I believe God created the world and its inhabitants and most assuredly used physical laws and evolution to do it. A great many scientists (physicists and biologists) believe the same thing. No one I know believes that Genesis is other than a lovely metaphor. Get over it.

No, I'm not going to "get over it."

376 Russkilitlover  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:58:01pm

re: #274 unrealizedviewpoint

Thank SF Mayor (super lib) Gavin Newsom, his money quote used over in commercial spots - "Whether You Like It Or Not" His perceived push it down your throat, like it or not, and the folks pushed back.

Prop 8 received 70% of the black vote in California. The huge turnout for BHO also drew in the socially conservative *cough, bigoted, cough* black vote against gay marriage.

377 JustAGal  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:58:02pm

Gack!

Until the Republican Party gets back to it's fundamental values of small government and letting people decide what's best for them state by state and not allowing redistribution of wealth, we are doomed.

We cannot legislate morality - it's impossible. It's not right. I may be a Bible believing conservative, but for gracious sakes - my views are not everyone's views.

It is about the economy and defending our country from terrorists and promoting democracy.

It's NOT about legislating morality - that's what we're supposed to do in our own homes and vote on it state wide.

ugh - I'm tired after last night, but fight on I will !

378 DistantThunder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:58:04pm

re: #292 Basho

Absolutely. I saw an ad on the NYC subway for a charity that assists and supports pregnant women until they give birth as an alternative to abortion. That's how it's done. Abstinence-only education, restrictions on birth control, and other government "solutions" have only POed a lot of people into picking more left-leaning candidates.

It's not restriction on birth control - I've never heard of that - I worked for a doctor and anybody could get anything related to birth control. No restrictions that I was aware of. But when you talk about the conscienceless government setting up health clinics in high schools, and handing out condoms like Halloween candy, I do have have a problem with that because of risk homeostasis - the 'safer' an activity is presented to be, the participants will increase the level of perceived risk. (People speed more often when they know they have anti-lock breaks.)

The government is not the appropriate purveyor of those services.

379 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:58:12pm

If humanity survives, a globalist sort of socialism is probably inevitable. But it makes no sense to rush into it any more than it does to remain mired into a defunct and ignorant past system. Easy does it, make it work, make it feasible, and make it world a place where people of all races (and I want to say all creeds, but we all know that some refuse to coexist with the others) can exist with an equal potential for happiness and prosperity. But there will have been no point in us surviving to see such a world body if we haven't retained our basic humanity, minus the toxic aspects of that humanity.

The chances that anyone here will see such a golden age, though, is slim and none, and slim blasted off in a one-way rocket.

380 Boolz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:58:15pm

re: #341 arethusa

I would bet that many of those people also don't want others to impose their own moral code on them. That's the issue here, not whether someone is Christian or not.

all laws are based on moral codes

381 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:58:44pm

I don't care what church a politician belongs to so long as there is no danger of imposing their beliefs on citizens by force.

There was a time when Americans were worried about JFK because he was Catholic.

Looking at Palin's and Obama's faiths and choices of churches, which one is more likely to use the force of government to indoctrinate citizens to their way of thinking?

382 IgofAntioch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:58:48pm

re: #321 Lizard by the Bay

Bush deserves blame for never setting the record straight, thinking he was looking so "Presidential" by staying above it all while his popularity sank by 10 points per month.

I completely agree. It is one thing to be "presidential" but it is another thing to just let them slime you with untruths and be gracious about it. Attack the man and you attack the office of the president. That went on unchallenged for too long.

383 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:58:57pm

Reagan was the last major political figure to run on capital-C Character.

Character both undergirds and transcends America ... and humanity as a whole.

Character transcends individual issues, and all dogma.

WTF is wrong with "America"?
Character.

/oh t' hell with it ... rant off ... going off-line to do other things

384 Dianna  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:58:57pm

re: #263 Creeping Eruption

I feel that there has been an under-current of anti-intellectualism in the whole Republican party lately, not just in her candidacy that many people found offensive.

The undercurrent of anti-intellectualism is a pretty common theme in American history. Read Mark Twain on Benjamin Franklin, sometime.

385 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:59:01pm

re: #109 Peacekeeper

We recently had a Republican Senator having gay sex in an airport toilet and that's about as socially liberal as you can get. Yet it didn't help his career now did it?

What did in his career was the implication of hypocrisy such actions belied, not the actions themselves.

In his defense, I think he was railroaded. Has anyone - anyone at all - ever heard about a Gay Foot-Tapping Code? Ever?

But the point is that belonging to a party which makes homosexuality and prostitution negative issues and then being accused of soliciting gay sex yourself opens the door to charges of hypocrisy. And frankly, the failure of other Republicans to come to his defense, scurrying away like roaches when the lights are turned on, reeked. Not only are the charges transparently bogus, as already noted; there's the question of why this is illegal in the first place. If so, shouldn't every single's bar in the country be shut down immediately?

Who cares what people do in their spare time? As long as they don't try to do it to me when I don't want to, I'm happy to simply ignore it.

386 Kenneth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:59:13pm

Morning after postmortems are all well and good. But bear in mind, the US will be a very different place in 4 years time. What ever folks decide today is the new direction for the GOP will be overtaken by events. Obama's big test is coming up. Biden has already assured us he will fail it. Obama's socialist instincts will destroy the US economy. Come the next election cycle the issues and challenges will be a whole new game.

387 calcajun  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:59:14pm

re: #335 Last Mohican

From these facts I draw the opposite conclusion to yours. The battle now is for personality, not ideas. .

I cannot agree with this at all. You sound as though you are looking for a candidate who is part matinee idol-part snake oil salesman. This is very dangerous as one of the weaknesses of our Republic is that it is susceptible to the "Cult of the Personality". We need a platform of ideas and ideals which can be easily explained and defended. In other words, we need a new "Contract with America"-- platform which sells itself without the need for the slick pitchman.

388 Wookieelips  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:59:18pm

re: #245 Ward Cleaver

If they are, then they're going against their party and its leadership.

If they are what?

389 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:59:30pm

re: #339 Kenneth

Here is a perfect illustration of why we cannot believe a word the media says. The CNN "hologram reporter" was a complete and utter fraud. There was absolutely nothing holographic about it. What the hell were they thinking? Are people really taken in by that stupid blue-screen stunt? Why didn't they just beam her in like Star Trek? I hope Blitzer is ashamed of himself for participating in that silly charade.

Simply pathetic.

What a stupid gimmick.

390 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:59:33pm

This election requires some time for me to digest, here are my initial thoughts.

After this election, no one can say the US is a bigoted nation. I wish Obama well and I hope he will be a great President.

I am not optimistic this will come to pass. He will be hard pressed to be dislodged in 2012 unless he out Carters Carter. If you love Chicago ward politics, you are going to love the next four years. Expect an never ending stream of improprieties over the next 10-30 million new Americans to be naturalized and given citizenship. The good news, no one can ever accuse the US of being bigoted ever again; for many African Americans merely being able to vote for Obama, much less his victory was a mindbending quasireligious experience. As I was driving around the polls yesterday, I saw it in people's faces; there was almost an air of disbelief. It was genuine happiness.
---
Unfortunately, I did have an incident yesterday that will forever be seered into my brain: a fellow attorney and I were talking about WWII in an inner city McDonalds. There was a woman next to us and, as she was leaving she decided to speak to us- "What do you know about Hitler?" "Aside from his being the biggest murderer and criminal the world ever knew, just about everything," I replied (you know going to go south from here).

"He was a great man." He saved Germany from the Jews!"
"Really?"
"They were trying to take over Germany and he stopped them"
"And your source for this?"
"Its in the Koran! And He was Jewish too!
"Really, I have read the Koran, it is not there. I was not aware he was Jewish."

Then she informed me that the right Koran from Youssef Something or another peace unto him and some such claptrap, a version I have never heard of, had the correct information and my freebee from CAIR is somehow inaccurate! And she blathered some stuff about Mohamed and she wished peace unto him.

Rather than start something, I just suggested I would look into here source and let it go at that.

The point is that NOI mosques are teaching poisonous ignorance and hatred to their congregants. Criminal ignorance and lies are the way of NOI.

There is no way to argue with such programming, the disease has fully eaten her brain and she can never be fixed. I had never in my life before seen such purified twisted ignorance.

more to follow

391 kynna  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:59:50pm

I'm dismayed to see people ragging on Sarah Palin. Talk about picking up the dem talking points. Embarrassing. The woman's inspiring, a reformer, and she wants what's best for this country.

McCain may have picked her for cynical reasons, I have never been able to figure the man out so I can't say anything for sure. But I do think she was an excellent pick and I'd vote for her in 2012.

Jindal is a great administrator and would be a great candidate, but the activist Creationism is a major turnoff. He won't stand a chance with that. Look how many people believe that cr@p about Palin and wouldn't go near voting for her. His belief that an exorcism can cure something or whatever is not my business unless he's trying to force it on me.

392 Moe Katz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:59:52pm

re: #334 hman

As a Christian biologist, I believe God created the world and its inhabitants and most assuredly used physical laws and evolution to do it. A great many scientists (physicists and biologists) believe the same thing. No one I know believes that Genesis is other than a lovely metaphor.

Sorry, I don't see where that is at variance with Charles's position on the subject.

393 markx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:59:55pm

re: #123 Charles

But it's pretty hard to deny that's why she was brought onboard.

Agreed, no one, if truthful, would deny it. But it was frankly McCain's only chance.. He backed himself into this corner.

IMO this 'mavrick' was a losing hand from the word go. He attempted to play the middle at the expense of the right. That's always a losing hand by the GOP. By convention time the 'moderate centrists' were already lost -- Palin didn't run them off. McCain boxed himself into this corner... he had to energize the GOP base with someone to his right. He had no choice.

If he picked Lieberman or Giuliani he would have lost by a landslide --Reagan / Mondale '84 proportions.

Palin helped not hurt. It could have been worse.

The problem was the top of the ticket. Frankly, there was no one McCain could have picked to helped. He was lost from the beginning.

PS... The best thing for the GOP to do is not listen to the Frum/Lutz/Brooks/Will NorthEast Coast crowd.

394 wolfie  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 1:59:58pm

re: #95 Dianna

Well, not really. I don't have a dog in the gay marriage fight. I do, however, have a dog I care a lot about in the judicial activism fight!

This is where I believe conservatives of all stripes might be able to make common cause.
I do not believe that abortion or gay issues would be as divisive or as disruptive if matters were left to elected legislatures to decide on the state or local level.
Judicial activism, which overturns popular referenda and millenia-old practices in the name of "rights," "rights" presumably revealed by some fabulous gnosis or ideology, is the very essence of "imposing values on others."
Those who say they believe in the freedom to persuade others to follow their moral views, but not in right to force those views on others, ought to oppose judicial activism entirely.

395 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:00:00pm

re: #174 gregg

Could someone explain California to me? Obama 6.1 million to McCain 3.7 million, yet Prop 8 lost.

Prop 8 won. That was the side that makes gay marriage illegal. It puts that restriction directly into our too easily amended State Constitution in order to prevent some liberal judge from saying it violates our State Constitution. That is what happened when a previous proposition (22 IIRC) simply made the restriction into a law.

396 Basho  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:00:09pm

re: #319 guy_philly


We needed Romney! (never an option in the South, unfortunately)

We absolutely did...

397 vapig  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:00:17pm

re: #352 devil in baggy pants

I couldn't disagree with this analysis more.

We lost because the GOP has lost it's true conservative moorings. Reagan would have torn Obama a new asshole and smiled while doing it.

Moving to the center simply moves the goalposts! Moving to the center alienates the base more than it includes moderates.

Understand that Sarah Palin brought out the base to vote. Had she not been on the ticket, Mc Cain would have lost by an even larger margin.

It is capitulation and appeasement to leftist ideals, pure and simple.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

398 jainphx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:00:27pm

re: #225 Iron Fist

I see we are buying into the media fostered hype that Palin hurt McCAIN. Hog wash, McCain hurt Palin. If you want to wander in the political desert for a generation, keep thinking that social morals are for the troglodytes. EVERY TIME conservatism is tried it wins and wins big, have we forgotten, or are we traveling down the G-Dless route to our demise. Lets not cut off our nose to spite our face.

399 Sorge  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:00:27pm

"Soc-cons are killing us in elections by alienating independent moderates AND the fiscal-cons. This has got to stop, and it won't unless republicans get involved in the party and tell these folks to keep their social agenda programs at church because it's not the business in which government is supposed to be addressing."

For God's sake, if you buy the leftist propaganda wholesale, I don't know what to do.

People actually make arguments about this thing. Perhaps listening to what your allies have to say instead of repeating the enemy line will do some good.

Atheistically yours;

400 Christopher Luebcke  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:00:31pm

re: #334 hman

Listen to Bobby Jindal speak and you will know the problem was the messenger, not the message... No one I know believes that Genesis is other than a lovely metaphor. Get over it.

Bobby Jindal does.

401 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:00:33pm

re: #121 lawhawk

If there was ever a time that YouTube could be used in favor of a Republican that was it. That video could have brought Obama and the democrats down if McCain had stayed on it. I'm still dumbfounded at how ignorant and hard headed people can be even after watching that.

402 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:00:34pm
403 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:01pm

Re: creationism. This is not about a personal belief that God created the universe and used evolution as a mechanism.

It's about a serious, sustained effort by several well-funded groups of fundamentalist Christians, who are using every dishonest trick in the book to try to force their agenda into US public schools.

As you would know if you had bothered to read a single thing I've written about it instead of dismissing it as an "obsession."

404 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:09pm
405 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:10pm

Gotta head home...My eldest has a Veterans Day project due tomorrow...Her subject is my BF.

He looks so good in his dress uniform!

406 medaura18586  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:12pm

AMEN, Charles!

The hardcore social conservatives' tendency to vote in a block is greatly convenient to them for holding power. But the cultural tide is against their agenda. I don't think they comprise more than 20% of the Republican Party.

Most think we need to bring them along in the battle uphill, that we need them. I think they're a liability and the socially liberal/fiscally conservative/morally libertarian faction needs to subvert them to the freedom agenda. I don't think we can subvert them. They can only subvert us and drag any legitimate efforts to modernize the Right down to the ground.

Changes must be made, painful changes, radical changes. 20% of the Republicans' traditional constituents might need to be disavowed... The GOP would gain much more than 20% from fiscally conservative Democrats and the apolitical individualistic electorate.

407 DistantThunder  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:14pm

re: #334 hman

You create a straw man of the social conservative, then knock it down. Reagan was both and Roe v. Wade was not reversed under him and won't be. If McCain had been both a true conservative and articulate and aggressive, he would have won. The problem is not "in our stars, but in ourselves."

If you listened to Rush today and will listen to Newt in the future, you will see how we can win and not give up our values. Listen to Bobby Jindal speak and you will know the problem was the messenger, not the message. By the way, Charles, your position on "Creationism" seems more an obsession that a rational point of view. As a Christian biologist, I believe God created the world and its inhabitants and most assuredly used physical laws and evolution to do it. A great many scientists (physicists and biologists) believe the same thing. No one I know believes that Genesis is other than a lovely metaphor. Get over it.

Creationists want to teach it in the schools - as a pseudo science - that's the objection, and it's rational, and it is the creationists that appear to be obsessed with the idea of introducing it into public schools.

408 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:16pm

re: #300 scratch

Comedy is all about timing.

That cracked me up

409 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:16pm

re: #250 faraway

Palin's Pentecostalism? Did she start speaking in tongues or play with snakes some time on the campaign trail and I missed it?.

Yes, she did! The media created that meme, and the George Soros blogosphere repeated and repeated it until it became absolute, unassailable reality in the minds of the voters.

We're no longer in the age of spin, in which facts are twisted and manipulated by professional PR machines for the good of a candidate. The blogosphere now has the ability to create reality de novo. Basis in fact is no longer required.

410 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:19pm

re: #287 Cognito

Wow. Obama just selected Emanuel as his chief of staff.

Not a shock at all. Watch for more Chicago cronies to wind up in the White House and the cabinet. It's Obama, and it's the Chicago Way. You rub my back, I'll rub yours.

411 zturlte  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:20pm

Sarah Palin brought social conservatives and Reagan Democrats together, my point being although I am pro life I cannot impose that on someone that is not nor do I wish to. Though, like she I try not to be hypocritical, she lives it and we see it. It makes for a for credible candidate, and someone I could support with ease.

412 vegasjew  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:23pm

30 years we have allowed the radicals,to run our universities,brainwash our children,and turn them away from patriotism and morality,and I believe
this election is the result.
When Bill Ayers was invited to instruct the good children of Nebraska , the parents said,not one more day,and not one more dollar. We have the power we always have. There are many great Christian and Jewish centers for higher learning,but unless we take
the fight to the ground,the Noam Chomskys of the world,tear America to the ground,and get the last laugh,as generation after generation of radicals is unleashed on us. David Horowitz is such a man who tries to point out the alliances between the left and our enemies.Too often he is left to shout it out with some radical muslim on a marginal TV show. We need to expose these people and win back the youth ,as they are the ones who make the calls and knock on the doors.

413 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:25pm

re: #330 Charles

She didn't just "grow up" in that church. You need to check the facts on this. She attended well into adulthood.

She left it in 2002 and now attends a non-denominational Bible church. But that means she was a Pentecostal until she was 37 or 38, and presumably her religious beliefs were well-formed. I would note that in 2002 she also ran for lieutenant governor. I don't know if she left the Pentecostals because of that, but the coincidence of dates makes me wonder.

414 Rednek  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:27pm

re: #379 Salem

If humanity survives, a globalist sort of socialism is probably inevitable. But it makes no sense to rush into it any more than it does to remain mired into a defunct and ignorant past system. Easy does it, make it work, make it feasible, and make it world a place where people of all races (and I want to say all creeds, but we all know that some refuse to coexist with the others) can exist with an equal potential for happiness and prosperity. But there will have been no point in us surviving to see such a world body if we haven't retained our basic humanity, minus the toxic aspects of that humanity.

The chances that anyone here will see such a golden age, though, is slim and none, and slim blasted off in a one-way rocket.

Globalist Socialism? Golden Age?

HA!

415 Kragar  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:43pm

I think the opponents of 8's disgusting attitude played against them. They ended up showing how they truly feel about any one who opposes them with this commercial. A disgusting and vile smear job.

416 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:50pm

re: #372 Lorenska

And unfortunately, I'm afraid that last night, we did just that. As I mentioned before, Obama's quote is "the Constitution focuses too much on what the fed and states CAN'T do and not enough on what we SHOULD do for the citizens." Never mind that that's what the Constitution was written for - to keep govt the hell out of people's lives - he wants the govt to run EVERYTHING and EVERYONE, and with a democratic congress behind him, I'm afraid that's where we're headed.


We, the people, still have the power. So let's stay vigilant the next four years and not allow our lives to be corrupted any more than they are already by government.

417 Boolz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:01:58pm

re: #380 Boolz

all laws are based on moral codes

haha...didn't finish...and in a democracy we're all entitled to voice on what moral codes we use to write our laws, and if the Christians outnumber the atheists, well then...

418 vagabond trader  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:02:03pm

re: #157 Wm T Sherman

First six months.

419 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:02:03pm

re: #386 Kenneth

Morning after postmortems are all well and good. But bear in mind, the US will be a very different place in 4 years time. What ever folks decide today is the new direction for the GOP will be overtaken by events. Obama's big test is coming up. Biden has already assured us he will fail it. Obama's socialist instincts will destroy the US economy. Come the next election cycle the issues and challenges will be a whole new game.

Absolutely! It became a whole new game just 4 weeks ago.

420 zenren  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:02:17pm

My two cents:

I'd like smaller government, fiscal conservatism, and a strong military. Although I would describe myself as a social conservative, it makes me uncomfortable to have government intervention in that area. I'm not saying to abandon social conservatism wholesale, but I don't think it should be the centerpiece of the party.

A lot of McCain's campaign literature - at least what I personally saw - covered social issues. Of course, there also was alot on O's nefarious associations as well as the need for national security. But, there was not a whole lot about small government.

421 oh_dude  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:02:31pm

Here's my vital stats:

I don't care what political party it is. It's the shared values I'm interested in.

I was baptized as Catholic, but never go to church. I believe in God, but I don't think it's my duty to force my religious views on people. Some people do.
Even conservatives like me are quite a bit put off by all of the Bible thumping.

What you do is your business. Just don't interfere with mine our break the laws that our society has legitimately put in place

I believe that individuals should decide what they should do with the money they earn. Whether it's hiding it in a mattress or opening a new business.

Big government is incompetent. It makes all dependent and lazy. It makes us less competitive in this global economy.

Now go find me a party.

422 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:02:36pm
423 Lorenska  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:02:39pm

re: #369 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

I'm sorry, I was technically responding to #204, too, I just accidentally clicked on your box instead of his, since you had his quote in yours...definitely, my comments were aimed at that post, not yours. Guess you could say I was just jumping in and repeating what you already said, should have clicked his post instead - my bad. :(

424 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:02:47pm

re: #391 kynna

I'm dismayed to see people ragging on Sarah Palin.

Easy Target.

425 philosophus invidius  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:02:47pm

It is sad that the "New England Republican" is apparently a thing of the past. The social conservatives and cultural warriors have soured the moderate New England voters on the Republican brand, thereby voting out the moderate Republicans who gave the party my-party-too. The movement to right has essentially abandoned the Northeast, the upper Midwest, and the Pacific states to the Democrats, making the two parties geography-based, with that geography overlapping in places like Virginia, Indiana, Ohio, Missouri, and Nevada.

426 Crusty  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:02:59pm

I don't think social issues played that big a role in this election. Both parties were against gay marriage, for instance, but that didn't keep Democrats from coming out in droves. Abortion is no closer to or further from being banned now than it was in the 70's.

The real problem is that the perception of Democrats being good with money comes from Bill Clinton being smart enough to mostly leave the economy alone and let Reaganomics do what it was designed to do. Much of the effect of Reagan's pro-business trickle-down took place during Clinton's administration. The Republicans can...and must...stay where they are on social issues or they will lose their identity and moral high ground. What they need to regain is their image as greedy old white men who are good with money.

What almost has to happen is for Obama to run the country into the ground Jimmy Carter style, militarily and economically, and let the public see that things were actually better under Bush. For instance, we've been terrorist-attack free for 7 years and unemployment has mostly been no higher than it was under Clinton. Hopefully, by 2012 the war in Iraq and Afghanistan will have winded down and their impact on the economy minimized. Then, a new Reagan rises as the champion of real economic reform which will win people over who have been suffering under Obama for 4 years, the illusion of Democratic skill with money having gone POOF. The social issues will fall to either side as they always have.

427 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:03:12pm

re: #380 Boolz

all laws are based on moral codes

Sure. Murder is bad, etc. But that's a commonly-agreed on concept. Some of the issues social conservatives promote are not commonly-agreed upon, and that is the objection the electorate has.

428 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:03:13pm

re: #315 UncleBuck

Back to basics!

Learn from the Conservative Party in the UK - keep the infighting behind closed doors, retain some traditional core Republican values,and seize the initiative.

We have a fantastic opportunity to rebuild over the next four years,let's not waste our time simply sniping at the GOP, let's be constructive: show responsibility and lead by example -when a GOP idea is bad,explain why it's bad,in simple terms,when it's a good idea,support it. We don't want to emulate the Democrat's behavior,we need to show the electorate we are more than capable in opposition,but better suited in office.

We can grow from this,let's make the Republican Party the big tent it once was,and rise to victory in 2012.

Amen.

Let's not forget Reagan's 11th Commandment: "Thou shalt not speak ill of other Republicans." At least, not in public.

429 Vaughn Beethoven  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:03:15pm

Glad to hear social conservatives roaring here, as the battle for the heart and soul of the GOP begins. This election was not lost due to being too conservative - what conservative issue cost us in the end? None.

Certainly most all here agree fiscal liberalism cost us dearly. This site excels at recognizing the world, and threats we face, clearly. So that's two legs of an excellent platform.

The battle is over the third leg. That, at least, is not a bad start at regrouping. I am heartened a bit.

430 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:03:20pm

re: #381 rightymouse

... Looking at Palin's and Obama's faiths and choices of churches, which one is more likely to use the force of government to indoctrinate citizens to their way of thinking?

Well, I don't think we know yet, do we. Certainly in the past groups like "The Moral Majority" wanted government to do for them what they should have been doing in the pulpit.

431 Quad Mocha Matti  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:03:29pm

Oh Crud - sounds like there's some black helicopters over the house - must have intercepted my wireless connection and are monitoring my posts! :-P~

432 Kenneth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:04:02pm

re: #390 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Holy crap!

433 medaura18586  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:04:05pm

re: #406 medaura18586

Correction:

Most think we need to bring them along in the battle uphill, that we need them, that the socially liberal/fiscally conservative/morally libertarian faction needs to subvert them to the freedom agenda. I don't think we can subvert them. They can only subvert us and drag any legitimate efforts to modernize the Right down to the ground. I think they're a liability.

434 Rick C  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:04:07pm

Social conservatism is a loser?

The post is short enough there's not a need to quote, but Helen suggests that people voting on the economy, not against social conservatives, was the theme. She points out McCain was polling quite well until the meltdown.

435 Boolz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:04:20pm

re: #427 arethusa

"murder is bad"...the murderers disagree

436 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:04:23pm

re: #379 Salem

If humanity survives, a globalist sort of socialism is probably inevitable...exist with an equal potential for happiness and prosperity

Methinks you've forgotten that socialism isn't about "equal potential", it's about "equal results". Equal potential would be global capitalism.

437 rudi  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:04:30pm

I understand that Charles is obsessed with the evolution/creationism debate, but this post is, with all due respect, ridiculous.

Social conservatives lost?

Excuse me, didn't three states just pass anti-gay marriage amendments?

Wasn't one of those states, of all places, California?

On the same day the democrats thumped the Republicans?

Not computing.

438 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:04:34pm

re: #317 MrPaulRevere

Pretty fair analysis. Its sad that the GOP needs to emphazise clean and transparent gov'mt. That used to be a given.

Well, I do live in the belly of the corrupt beast, Illinois. I get to see this crappola on a daily (or is that Daley?) basis. Clean and transparent government does not exist in Illinois at this time.

439 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:04:39pm
440 moonstone  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:04:59pm

Sharmuta, you're usually one with good links. Do you have some regarding the religious right that's apparently such an albatross?

Other than their demonization by the media, I honestly don't know what they do that makes them so repugnant to everyone.

Are we talking Jerry Falwell? Billy Graham? The guy that endorsed John McCain and immediately became McCain's own personal Reverend Wright?

I've always assumed that religious people vote Republican because of the conservative platform; not that Republicans have a conservative platform because of religious people.

If we stop allowing Christians to vote, will that make everyone happy?

441 cowbellallen  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:05:08pm

Maybe the GOP should take the time to educate voters. The Democrats don't have to worry about educating voters because their whole party is made up of people who are stupid anyways.

442 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:05:31pm

Let's see...0bama belongs to a hate-America-God-Damn-AmeriKKKa church for 20 years and gets elected to the presidency.

So the GOP should jettison mainstream Catholics and Protestants so they don't appear too beholden to the 'religous right' Dominionists?

443 Basho  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:05:35pm

re: #378 DistantThunder


The government is not the appropriate purveyor of those services.

Well, that was the point of my post.
But anyway, the safer something is, the safer it is.

444 MadJadBad  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:05:54pm
Individual rights- not "human rights". Again- this social issue should be getting dealt with by the religious community. If it was, there would be NO need for government involvement. Put the social issues back where they belong- in religious institutions.


That's why I said that abortion should NOT be argued as a religious issue.

445 Taqyia2Me  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:05:55pm

During this presidential campaign, Sarah Palin was the ONLY thing I saw as even REMOTELY positive. Everything else was force-fed to us.

PS
I'm still really pissed off Biden was allowed to run for two positions in the same election, but it's not like the heat will EVER be on him (a fucking donkey) like they would put on a Repub.

If it comes from a Democrat, I by definition MUST depise it. I live in Illinois and I KNOW of which I speak.

446 Russkilitlover  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:05:59pm

Now that it appears to be open season on Sarah Palin, I will say my piece, FWIT:

Veep candidates are vetted through the party but the candidate makes the choice. Palin was not brought on board BECAUSE she is socially conservative, but rather that McCain saw in her a kindred spirit: A person well centered and grounded in her own life, a boatload of common sense, and the ability to effectively implement reform, even if it means bucking her own party.

The fact that her personal choices were socially conservative made her okay with the party but I really don't believe that social conservatism is what put her on the ticket. I didn't see a lot of Sarah rallies, and the media certainly didn't report on them, but I never heard her pontificating on right-wing ideals that a lot of people are attributing to her.

447 Sorge  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:06:20pm

By the way, Democrats are for the teaching of evolution as long as the actual implications of evolution are not taught. For example when Randy Thornhill published "A Natural History of Rape" he was demonized by leftists to no end.

How come leftists are not denounced for their irrational hatred of a scientific theory?

(Notice how the opposition of the left is consequential; scientists don't do studies, authors don't publish books because they are afraid of being demonized.)

448 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:06:31pm

re: #437 rudi

I understand that Charles is obsessed with the evolution/creationism debate, but this post is, with all due respect, ridiculous.

Social conservatives lost?

Excuse me, didn't three states just pass anti-gay marriage amendments?

Wasn't one of those states, of all places, California?

On the same day the democrats thumped the Republicans?

Not computing.

I'm really sick and tired of being told I'm "obsessed" about creationism. This is a slimy tactic to try to get me to stop posting about it. You're not welcome to post comments here any more.

449 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:06:55pm

re: #399 Sorge

What part of my statement is problematic? You think the government should pick up where religious institutions have failed?! I think I'm actually being a real conservative in desiring less government instead of looking to government to replace my church.

450 Quad Mocha Matti  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:07:09pm

re: #439 Iron Fist

That doesn't start until the 20th of January :-)

Well, perhaps the clandestine units are just really eager to train before they go public in a couple of months under their new CIC. :-O

451 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:07:09pm

It's not just Five O'Clock Somewhere, It's Five O'Clock Here.

Y'all enjoy yourselves.

452 Rednek  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:07:10pm

OT

I remember hearing somewhere that Israel would attack Iran after the election and before the inaguration. They are really alone now. Maybe they will.

453 nyc redneck  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:07:12pm

i think mccain/palin would have won this election, if he had been more like her,
instead of the reach across the aisle, dem-like maverick.
i think it's a mistake to soften our stance on basic conservative principles,
in the hope of tempting libs,
we're either conservatives or we're not.
i know society has changed but some of those changes are undesirable, fundamentally.
i hate the way the dems conduct themselves, lying, cheating,
phony bastards w/ their pretense of virtue and ethics.
it's a joke to move in that direction.

454 jill e  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:07:24pm
455 Golem Akbar  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:07:40pm

re: #306 Alan2

My jaw dropped when I read David Frum's article.

"Hey Republicans, become even less conservative if you want to win"

Somehow I don't think that's the message republicans and conservatives were sending yesterday.

But then again, if you weren't ever really a conservative, then I can see how you would want that to be the message.

I've been busy most of the day, but after a quick glance I need to respond. I think Frum has a good point. He is not saying that conservatives should not embrace traditional values, just that they need to adopt a more laissez faire attitude toward passing socially conservative laws. I think that's a valid point.

I don't agree with strict Darwinists, for example, but I don't like the idea of outlawing their teachings from the schools. And I think creationists are somewhat mistaken, but their philosophy needs to be voiced to our young. Since I am always right (///) only my teachings are valid...

Social conservatism has traditionally been taught by example, not by laws. I think that's the best way and I think David Frum has a very strong point to make.

456 Basho  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:07:40pm

re: #417 Boolz

haha...didn't finish...and in a democracy we're all entitled to voice on what moral codes we use to write our laws, and if the Christians outnumber the atheists, well then...

Subject to the Constitution...

457 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:07:46pm

The GOP needs to figure out how to get New York and California back in play without selling its soul instead of perpetually writing them off. I agree with Frum on that 100%. Joe the plumber never mentioned a social issue if I recall correctly.

458 baxtrice  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:07:47pm

I am a religious conservative, However. We need to remember that fiscal conservatism, limited government, civil liberties and personal responsibility is the way forward.

Religion should be kept in the private life, and not forced upon others.

My two cents if you are interested.

459 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:07:58pm

re: #437 rudi

Remember that line your mommy taught you - "if you don't have something good to say..." Why comment on this thread then?

460 Kragar  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:08:00pm

Personal Opinion, I'd have been a lot more comfortable with a Romney/Palin ticket than the McCain/Palin ticket, but that ship has sailed.

461 honestjay  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:08:16pm

We gays have a lot of money to give to fiscal conservatives and a lot to offer to the Republican party if you will just accept us.

462 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:08:49pm

re: #414 Rednek

Globalist Socialism? Golden Age?

HA!

Well, some sort of centralized entity rather than a bunch of quarreling or isolated entities, at any rate. That amounts to about the same thing. You know, like in Star Trek.

463 Born_to_lose  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:08:56pm

You know what? Why the EF do conservatives NEED to change anything about their positions on anything? Honestly, I feel like the reason there were high turnouts amongst the uneducated, the young, the culturally diverse, all in the tank for Obama, mind you, is because they do not want to have to be held accountable for their actions. They do not want to have to answer to an authority figure. I see it all of the time. I am 25. The majority of my friends are practical minded thinkers, aka conservatives and/or right leaning independents, and we all kind of agree on a few things: our group all come from working class fmailies, have had partime or full time jobs since we were in high school, so WE KNOW what it means to have to be fiscally conservative. We have known for some time that if we blew our load, financially speaking, in one outing, we were screwed because mom and pops couldn't afford to dig us out of our mistake, unlike what we are seeing from our college educated neo-hippy, Obamaniac peers. Furthermore, none of us could afford, or could even ever fathom having an abortion, and therefore USED PROTECTION! I live/grew up in MD, and perhaps I should be thankful for the sex ed that I recieved (I knew what a condom was from grade 5), and sorry if this might be TMI for some people, but I am telling you what, I cannot get behind what my mother lovingly/jokingly calls this neuveau collective "Welfare Mentality". I refuse to, as a conservative thank you, give up my stances on abortion (which by the way, libs want us to give habeus corpus rights to the guantanamo thugs, yet it's completely OK to abort a LIVING FETUS in the 7th or 8th month of a pregnancy!?!?! Talk about eff'd up morals and priorities!) or fiscal conservatism. Ugh...I could go on for pages, but I won't bore you all any further (plus, I NEED to leave my work place...it's been an Obamania celebration all day, and I am woozy at this point in the day!)

464 bitterclinger_in_PA  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:09:32pm

The US Constitution was written by men who were inspired by God's Word in the Bible. Fundamentals of conservatism are based on the Bible's teaching. Reagan believed that too. We should not abandoned conservatism because a moderate republican loss the election. Abortion is wrong any way you cut it. Obama's stance on botched abortion takes it to a new level of extreme liberalism. What are we in China when we want to kill a baby after it is Born. Gay marriage is a sign of a country losing it's moral backbone. It is a shame that some in our country voted without God in mind. Read "Darwin's Demise" on creationism and that will change your minds if you have any doubt about it.

Frum is no conservative. He is one of the guys who is destroying the republican. Good riddance Frum... We lost because we did not have a rock solid conservative like Reagan. I like Palin/Jidal in 2012 and rebuild like Newt did in 94.

465 MPH  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:09:36pm

Where I disagree with Frum is --

If you are going to fight against the disease of fundamentalist religionists (which is the proper course of action, obviously), you have to fight against them all. Fundamentalist Islamism (Wahabbists, Radical Shia, etc), Environmentalism (Al Gore), Judaism (ultra-orthodox supremacists), Christianity (young-earthers etc).

The future of the republican party is NOT today's democrat party. At least if it wants to win elections and stop the return of socialism, that is.

This is also why Charles is right on target in not working together with the euro-fascists. Compromise is suicide.

466 hoffmonster  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:09:42pm

How can this have been a referendum on the social conservative agenda?
two states had props pass that oppose gay marriage?
Any state that has put it on the ballot has had results that are similar,,,
the social conservative agenda is not dead..

I am not about to change my conservative views in hopes that we may get a leader back in the Whitehouse..
that would be what I call selling out, and exactly what the left in this country want.. I'd rather die then change my beliefs just to get a winner.
That is not conservatism.. that's libralism

what part of the social conservative agenda was part of the election?
I never saw it.. All I saw was the media beating a drum of change without much detail to show for it...

467 Golem Akbar  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:09:43pm

re: #458 baxtrice

I am a religious conservative, However. We need to remember that fiscal conservatism, limited government, civil liberties and personal responsibility is the way forward.

Religion should be kept in the private life, and not forced upon others.

My two cents if you are interested.


That's worth at least a dollar. Agreed.

468 Griffon  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:09:51pm

I consider myself to be a social moderate, but I would rather vote for a far-right candidate than a far-left candidate like Obama. I feel that the States, the Congress, and the Courts would keep the far-right agenda from becoming law more easily than the far-left agenda. People voted down bans on abortion yesterday. They also voted against some far-left issues, but with liberal Congressional and Executive branches, we will no doubt see some far-left federal laws passed.

I do feel that potential candidates like Sarah Palin will have to sincerely change her social platform to get elected. I was disappointed that Mitt Romney flip flopped on abortion and stem cell research, but he had to do that in order to have any hope of getting the Republican nomination. I am neither 100% pro-choice nor pro-life, and that's the candidate I'm looking for.

469 moderndayprayer  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:10:08pm

re: #123 Charles

If this election was a total repudiation of "social conservatism" then exactly how did so many homosexual marriage ballot initiatives pass? One would think that just one of these measures would fail riding on Obama's coattails.

Discounting the will of the people is exactly what the left does. I for one am not ready to do that.

I also think there is also some serious deception going on with regards to Jindal's beliefs.

470 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:10:11pm

re: #448 Charles

I saw that coming. Jeez. How does one enter somebody else's house and shit in the foyer?

471 Lorenska  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:10:13pm

re: #416 rightymouse

We, the people, still have the power. So let's stay vigilant the next four years and not allow our lives to be corrupted any more than they are already by government.

From your lips to God's ears...I certainly intend to fight with every fiber of my being...my worry is the Peggys of the world, who WANT the govt to take care of them, those that voted Obama in because they're just sure he's going to heal the earth and fix the oceans and pay their mortgages and make that mean ol' Iran be nice to us...and all we have to do is give him all the power and all our faith and oh yeah, all our money. I hope against hope that I'm just being cynical and that I'm wrong, I truly do.

472 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:10:22pm

re: #374 Opinionated

Elections in the US are won in the middle- as this one was.

Palin did McCain no good at all.

Palin did do good, because she brought energy. She was an OK pick.

Had the focus stayed on the price of oil - she may have been able to help alot. Unfortunately, the campaign dynamic got thrown a loop with the financial meltdown - and oil price declined dramatically, taking that issue off the mind. Palin didn't help there, but McCain shot himself in the foot, too.

473 Catttt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:10:23pm

re: #431 Quad Mocha Matti

Oh Crud - sounds like there's some black helicopters over the house - must have intercepted my wireless connection and are monitoring my posts! :-P~

There was a Truther at my polling place. I teased him. He was NOT amused.

474 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:10:25pm
475 markx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:10:45pm

re: #437 rudi

I understand that Charles is obsessed with the evolution/creationism debate, but this post is, with all due respect, ridiculous.

Social conservatives lost?

Excuse me, didn't three states just pass anti-gay marriage amendments?

Wasn't one of those states, of all places, California?

On the same day the democrats thumped the Republicans?

Not computing.

Not computing, indeed.

You have only been were only here 3 weeks, how can you know anything about Charles' obsessions?

Oh, bye bye.

476 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:10:48pm

re: #436 bosforus

Methinks you've forgotten that socialism isn't about "equal potential", it's about "equal results". Equal potential would be global capitalism.

My semantics were flawed, it's true.

477 jainphx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:10:49pm

re: #424 LSD

But only for those that buy into the "RELIGIOUS" hype. Look here in Arizona, all so called social issues oriented proposals passed and passed handily. Stop with this demonisation of a good women, who didn't get much help from McCain

478 honestjay  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:10:51pm

Republicans should emphasize the libertarian wing of the party platform and diminish the influence of the intolerant in the party if you want to appeal to a new generation of voters.

479 Quad Mocha Matti  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:10:57pm

Keyes/Paul in 2012!

/sarc

480 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:10:59pm

re: #445 Taqyia2Me

During this presidential campaign, Sarah Palin was the ONLY thing I saw as even REMOTELY positive. Everything else was force-fed to us.

Oh come on. She was the picked and groomed by the same sort of people that market ALL POLITICIANS. She was forced-fed to us. She was packaged, prettied up, gussied up and then put on teh public stage becuase she represented an image that the party wasnted to tap into.

And what was that image? The social conservatives. Did you notice that Focus on the Family WAS NOT ENDORSING McCAIN until after Plain was picked. FOTF is the public image of the conservative religious right.

Coincidence, I think not. That point in itself is absolute PROOF of what Frum is saying, and what Charles and others are saying on this thread.

481 ArmyWife  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:11:02pm

re: #343 Walter L. Newton


well - I was a Palin fan BEFORE she was selected. In fact, I (and Mama Winger, maybe? Don't want to speak for her) said McCain wouldn't pick Palin because it made just too much sense. She has a record of success, she espouses the core values of our party (and I don't mean fundie Christianity), and she wasn't an elitist. She got our party engaged in an election that was ho-hum at best. It was too little, too late and those that "knew best" mishandled the campaign immensely. It was Sarah, it was the RNC leadership. Plus McCain was not and never will be a republican's republican. He IS what Charles described, and where did it get us? Just because you are of one type of religion doesn't mean you can't accept others who don't share the same faith. It is possible - freedom of religion, not from religion is key. I am not a fundamentalist Christian, but if you are, great! I am not an atheist, but if you are, more power to you. I won't ask you to only believe in what I believe and I expect the same in return. I also don't care what 2 consenting adults do in their bedroom. I really, really don't. Will I support gay marriage? Nope. Why? Because I am a social conservative, not intolerant and hateful.

482 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:11:04pm

re: #448 Charles

I'm really sick and tired of being told I'm "obsessed" about creationism. This is a slimy tactic to try to get me to stop posting about it. You're not welcome to post comments here any more.

I guess some lizards are just obsessed with the fact that this is not their blog.

483 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:11:07pm

The major gay issue at the moment is the right of homosexuals to marry. McCain and Obama had exactly the same position on that issue.

No point to be made, I'm just throwing that out there...

484 Jim D  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:11:12pm

It seems to me that some want to have it both ways on Prop 8. On other threads I hear it's all about judicial activism, not about enforcing conservative morals.
Now on this thread it's 'evidence' that everyone thinks social conservatism is just dandy.

485 freetoken  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:11:15pm

re: #334 hman

No one I know believes that Genesis is other than a lovely metaphor. Get over it.

Have you talked to the Texas board of education recently?

486 itellu3times  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:11:19pm

I'm sure this is already posted above, but I'll say it anyway, Frum is silly. The reason the election turned on Republican social issues, is because contrary to all dogma and common sense, the Republicans failed to live up to their own economic conservativism.

The point, if there is one anywhere in the vicinity, is that we all may need an update on just what "economic conservatism" even means. But whatever it means, Frum is crazy if he says the Democrats are doing more of it. Just because they've cried wolf about budget deficits recently, under the guise of wanting to raise taxes, in NO WAY makes them more conservative.

487 Golem Akbar  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:11:36pm

re: #461 honestjay

We gays have a lot of money to give to fiscal conservatives and a lot to offer to the Republican party if you will just accept us.


You are vitally needed. A rejuvinated Republican Party ought to be a place of freedom.

488 Basho  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:11:50pm

re: #437 rudi

Social conservatives lost?

Excuse me, didn't three states just pass anti-gay marriage amendments?

Wasn't one of those states, of all places, California?

On the same day the democrats thumped the Republicans?

Not computing.

Here's a revelation: Put up social issues on the ballot box and let people decide, not government or activist courts.

489 summergurl  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:11:51pm

Last night our country-wide pageant was weighted heavily in the style not substance category.

McCain is a decent man and a true American. He refused to bring up Rev Wright even though the other side brought race into the campaign repeatedly. Palin brought some spark to his campaign. I think she helped him.

But with the MSM, celebrity endorsements, Greek columns, all of that lent BO a rock star air. We worship our celebrities. BO became a celebrity and he was able to run on a platform of Hope and Change without specifics because we want him to fix it without telling us all the details. The "just make it go away" mentality.

I am a fiscal conservative - I am also a social conservative and believe that without moral guidelines, civilization deteriorates. But going too far right will alienate not just our base, our country.

People are getting lazy, we are cultivating a country of people dependent on handouts. You stop walking for yourself, you eventually lose the muscles, the ability to walk, and depend on someone to push you in your wheelchair to the next handout line.

What is the answer for the GOP? Don't compromise our values yet not lean too far right, and darn it find that thing called a backbone and start demanding term limits, line item vetoes, and fiscal accountability.

Sad to say, sometimes its all about the package first.

Too many people saw McCain as too old, certainly no one doubted his loyalty but the demands of a President is tough - how many of us have parents his age and they could not stand the rigors of the daily responsibility.

We are viewed to many as their parent's party.

GOP- It's not your parent's party anymore.

490 Sorge  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:12:00pm

re: #449 Sharmuta

What part of my statement is problematic? You think the government should pick up where religious institutions have failed?! I think I'm actually being a real conservative in desiring less government instead of looking to government to replace my church.

Sharmuta;

The blanket dismissal of morality as an issue is problematic. (Say, do leftists ever let go of racism?)

One example, should government promote policies that lead to stable marriages? Should government promote personal and family savings? Should government promote a defender's code among its men?

You may disagree with one, several, or all of the religious conservatives position. But your dismissal of morality in the public arena doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

491 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:12:19pm

re: #459 unrealizedviewpoint

Remember that line your mommy taught you - "if you don't have something good to say..." Why comment on this thread then?

Moot point now.

492 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:12:29pm

re: #437 rudi

Social conservatives lost?

Excuse me, didn't three states just pass anti-gay marriage amendments?

Wasn't one of those states, of all places, California?

On the same day the democrats thumped the Republicans?

Not computing.

Nope, it would seem that the social conservatives won. It just happens that a lot of so-cons also happen to be deep blue democrats. Go figure.

-1 for the obsession crap. I think some folks are more rabidly obsessed with Charles' stance on creationism than he is on anything.
(I'm sure after 9/11 many started accusing Charles of being obsessed with Islam, so...)

493 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:12:30pm

re: #440 moonstone

Nice strawman. I said nothing about preventing Christians from voting. Far from it. Just that people with a religious agenda should take it up at church, not turn to a political party. Political parties concern government, not religion. If you'd like to mix the tow, I can provide a good link to a society that has done so.

494 bulwrk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:12:38pm

re: #457 MrPaulRevere

California is more conservative than most people think,but Democratic gerrymandering of districts has pretty much made it impossible to swing the state back towards the middle.

495 hman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:12:42pm

re: #407 DistantThunder

You must live in a different world than I do. I live in Georgia, a religious state, and no one wants to teach "Creationism". This is such a small issue that it merits no concern.

496 Lorenska  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:12:44pm

re: #348 alien_mind

exactly. Obama gets elected coming from a church that practices Black Liberation Theology and whose Rev. was openly rascist to white people and blamed America for 9/11. But somehow because Sarah Palin is pro-life and attends church, we're supposed to believe that people were driven away from the ticket to OBAMA? please.

Amen to both comments...it's unreal that Sarah's church, which at a stretch is a little different from others, took all the hits, while a church that blames whites and America herself for all the problems of the world, got almost a complete pass - and the criticism it did receive was of course racist and narrow minded, but the slaps at Sarah's church were perfectly legit. Nope, no bias in the media here.

497 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:12:55pm

re: #406 medaura18586

AMEN, Charles!

The hardcore social conservatives' tendency to vote in a block is greatly convenient to them for holding power. But the cultural tide is against their agenda.

As I mentioned above, their agenda is fundamentally anti-conservative. It promotes massive government intrusion in what ought to be private matters, which flies in the face of the smaller, less intrusive government espoused by Conservatism.

498 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:12:56pm
499 Rednek  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:13:06pm

re: #462 Salem

Well, some sort of centralized entity rather than a bunch of quarreling or isolated entities, at any rate. That amounts to about the same thing. You know, like in Star Trek.

That kind of concentation of power is not consistent with human liberty. I'll take the quarreling entities.

500 philosophus invidius  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:13:09pm

I didn't think that rudi's comment was out of line even though I disagree with the tone. It seems wholly on-point to mention Prop 8 in this regard.

501 lennysquiggy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:13:14pm

I have a quick question about gay marriage rights... I am genuinely puzzled by the issue and I would like a fellow Lizard to explain this to me. I'm admittedly too focused on Islamism and small government. I don't pay attention to gay marriage arguments because I don't hate gays, nor do I think they should be extended marriage rights. I don't see how the two viewpoints conflict at all. Thanks in advance.

-Marriage is fundamentally a church issue. To my knowledge, no church approves gay marriage. If a church does approve gay marriage, I think that's up to the church. Freedom of religion.

-Gay rights activists say they are entitled to marriage rights because they want the tax and healthcare benefits that are extended to traditional married couples.

Given the above (please let me know if the above is incorrect), why isn't the GOP stance something like this:

"The government has nothing to do with marriage, other than to record a marriage with a license, for record keeping purposes. The GOP supports massive tax cuts across the board, effectively making marriage and any other tax benefits obsolete... We want EVERYONE to pay lower taxes whether gay or straight. As for healthcare, that is not a right and the government should not be involved in mandating that a married person receive their spouse's healthcare - that decision is up to the healthcare provider and the free market... It will obviously be a wise move for healthcare companies to provide spousal coverage. Beyond that, gays can go marry, but dont' come running to us if your church doesn't accept you. That is their right. And finally, there won't be anymore marriages at city hall b/c the government is out of the marriage business."

I really think I may be missing the fundamental issue here b/c the above makes so much sense. It takes the issue off the table, it cuts taxes and it makes it clear that the government is not going to provide healthcare to anyone.

Anyone? Thanks in advance.

502 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:13:16pm

Electing McCain as the nominee did not help. Initially he had to overcome a lot within his own party. I don't think he would have done nearly as well with out Palin. Even more important was the Oct surprise of a global economic meltdown which sank any chance conservatives had because they were the party in the white house.

If the repubs go any further to the left, it wouldn't surprise me if a third party sprang up with real teeth.

503 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:13:24pm
504 Catttt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:13:27pm

re: #462 Salem

Well, some sort of centralized entity rather than a bunch of quarreling or isolated entities, at any rate. That amounts to about the same thing. You know, like in Star Trek.

Hegemony.

505 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:13:30pm

re: #491 Creeping Eruption

Moot point now.

Now mute.

506 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:13:31pm

re: #476 Salem

My semantics were flawed, it's true.

I got your point though, so it's all good. :) And I kind of agree. Like a UN, EU kind of thing. Global organizations. Those kinds of group make me wary at times.

507 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:13:33pm

I'm putting this thread in my favorites. It seems like a fairly pivotal one.

508 piglet-u93  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:13:38pm

Abortion is one of the more significant agents detrimental to the continuance of Western civilization. For instance in Spain at their current low birthrate there will few natives left in the next 100 hundred years. What will replace them? I know but do you?

509 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:13:44pm

re: #435 Boolz

You're still not getting it. Those who murder are condemned and punished by society, because society has agreed that murder is an intolerable, heinous crime. It doesn't matter what percent of the country is Christian. They will have varying positions on social issues, and they will most emphatically not take kindly to being told what to do if they don't agree with it. Society is not in agreement on socially conservative issues, as this very thread is demonstrating, and most people don't want others' moral viewpoints imposed on them.

510 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:13:45pm

re: #458 baxtrice

I am a religious conservative, However. We need to remember that fiscal conservatism, limited government, civil liberties and personal responsibility is the way forward.

Religion should be kept in the private life, and not forced upon others.

My two cents if you are interested.

I wish more were like you.

511 Lee Coller  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:14:01pm

re: #494 bulwrk

California is more conservative than most people think,but Democratic gerrymandering of districts has pretty much made it impossible to swing the state back towards the middle.

That may change given the passage of Prop 11 (redistricting)

512 J.S.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:14:36pm

re: #348 alien_mind

Yes. but the difference is that the MSM could easily mock, deride, chastise Palin -- degrade her into becoming a "religious freak" -- while giving Rev Wright a complete pass (because that church is black). (I think that one of the problems also was Palin's decision to play along with the clownish, cut throats -- it didn't really help her at all -- it just made it into a bigger jest). It's the MSM's double standard, their unrelenting hypocrisy which needs to be addressed (and which, as I suspect you're already well aware, is practiced over and over and with a number of other, different issues)...(The MSM's current practices, I believe, are pathological to the health of Democracy -- but they're not going to change any time soon. I'm at a loss as to how to counter their sway over the public...other than through sustained, private boycotts. Stop subscribing to the papers, cancel the cable, etc.)

513 vegasjew  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:14:42pm

conservatives are going to have to find a way to engage the African American and the ever growing
Latino community or we will never win. New Mexico amd Nevada ,Colorado have enormous Latino populations. The good news, they are culturally conservative and were actually responsible for beating down homo marriage in California.
A party of white male southern Christians is not going to accomplish much on the national level.

514 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:14:43pm

re: #493 Sharmuta

Nice strawman. I said nothing about preventing Christians from voting. Far from it. Just that people with a religious agenda should take it up at church, not turn to a political party. Political parties concern government, not religion. If you'd like to mix the tow, I can provide a good link to a society that has done so.

Ahhh... Islam... you must be kidding... aren't they all gumdrops and rivers made of chocolate... don't scare me.

/s

515 bulwrk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:14:47pm

re: #511 Lee Coller

Let us hope

516 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:14:54pm

re: #481 ArmyWife

well - I was a Palin fan BEFORE she was selected. In fact, I (and Mama Winger, maybe? Don't want to speak for her) said McCain wouldn't pick Palin because it made just too much sense. She has a record of success, she espouses the core values of our party (and I don't mean fundie Christianity), and she wasn't an elitist. She got our party engaged in an election that was ho-hum at best. It was too little, too late and those that "knew best" mishandled the campaign immensely. It was Sarah, it was the RNC leadership. Plus McCain was not and never will be a republican's republican. He IS what Charles described, and where did it get us? Just because you are of one type of religion doesn't mean you can't accept others who don't share the same faith. It is possible - freedom of religion, not from religion is key. I am not a fundamentalist Christian, but if you are, great! I am not an atheist, but if you are, more power to you. I won't ask you to only believe in what I believe and I expect the same in return. I also don't care what 2 consenting adults do in their bedroom. I really, really don't. Will I support gay marriage? Nope. Why? Because I am a social conservative, not intolerant and hateful.

Snap!

517 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:15:22pm

re: #505 unrealizedviewpoint

Now mute.

LOL

518 markx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:15:23pm

re: #508 piglet-u93

Have you read Steyn's America Alone? If not, do so.

519 baxtrice  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:15:26pm

re: #510 Sharmuta

I wish more were like you.

I come from a hardy stock of Libertarian & Republican Texans! (with a little old school JFK democrats) :)

520 Boolz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:15:32pm

re: #456 Basho

Subject to the Constitution...

what about it? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...all that was SUPPOSED to mean was that there be no law making us all Catholics, or outlawing all Mormons...was NOT meant to mean Christian thought/morals couldn't be used in basis of writing laws (moral conduct). Unfortunately, this is what is being taught in public schools

521 moderndayprayer  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:15:32pm

re: #458 baxtrice

How exactly is religion being forced into anyone's life now? That's such utter horseshit! I never have to engage any deity or house of worship because... guess what? I don't want to. People make it sound like we're living under the Inquisition!

522 wintercat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:15:35pm

re: #261 DeafDog

McCain's rush to be involved with the bailout made him appear to be a political opportunist. The bailout was shoved down America's throat and it was clear that nobody really knew what the heck was going on...except that we were spending more money than imaginable on this mess. Obama got a complete pass on the issue. That is where his lack of time in office served him well because even though the was a major recipient of Fanny Mae cash, he was never perceived as one of the insiders. McCain did not make the case that Obama and the Dems were responsible for the fiasco either. SNL made it for Pete's sake and McCain should have jumped all over that issue and kept pounding at it. He poked at it a few times but he never brought down the hammer.

Blaming Palin for the failure of this campaign is wrong. With a mere 10 weeks on the scene she brought excitement to an almost dead ticket. Palin is not a dummy but the GOP set her up with two interviews where she got creamed and then put her in hiding so she never had the chance to redeem herself to the general public. Frankly, I love Palin but I wished she had two terms as a Governor under her belt before the GOP threw her into the mix. She came across in the beginning as a deer in the headlights and thanks to the GOPs handling of her and the MSM's hatred of her, that stuck.

Ultimately, this campaign was really a lost cause due to Bush backdraft. It was not Palin's fault in any way. My impression of her is that she is a conservative but she is not far right at all. She did not oppose gay rights in Alaska. She did not force her personal beliefs on anyone. She upheld the laws of her state and would be a worthy leader in US politics.

Palin should run for Senator if she wants to be a contender in the national scene. She's got to put some real distance between herself and the image the dems were able to craft for her based on her unknown status.

I think she is really a remarkable woman with a future if she wants it. And I must say, having watched what was done to her by the Dems and the media, I would not blame her is she told the lower 48 to jump off a bridge.

523 freetoken  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:15:55pm

re: #442 Fenway_Nation

Let's see...0bama belongs to a hate-America-God-Damn-AmeriKKKa church for 20 years and gets elected to the presidency.

Nov 4, 2008 is evidence that many people don't really care what Rev. Wright says, or they approve. That Obama was a pew-warmer at that church didn't pull much weight with enough people, which is likely what study groups showed the McCain campaign early on, so it wasn't pursued as a talking point.

So the GOP should jettison mainstream Catholics and Protestants so they don't appear too beholden to the 'religous right' Dominionists?

No one said that, did they? Why are you putting words in peoples' mouths?

524 Catttt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:15:55pm

re: #461 honestjay

We gays have a lot of money to give to fiscal conservatives and a lot to offer to the Republican party if you will just accept us.

I accept you, but then, I'm a Democrat. :D

525 faraway  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:15:56pm

re: #302 J.S.

I think the problem with Palin was that she was made to look ridiculous by the MSM (which had Zero qualms about re-playing Saturday Night Live skits -- mocking her endlessly and portraying her as 1) an idiot 2) a nutbar religious freak 3) daffy. It was creul, unfair, and disgusting -- but, hey, that's what the MSM is all about nowadays. Again, the MSM is despicable...but they're going to be around for a bit longer...so how they deal with candidates has to be taken into consideration.)

Let's see...
[fill in the blank conservative] - chimp, hitler, liar, goofy, stupid, not curious, religious zealot, erratic, hick, redneck, etc.

Why is this a surprise to everyone? Bush, Quayle, McCain, Palin, Romney, Huck, Fred.

526 Dan G.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:16:10pm

re: #249 DeafDog

You stated that no one knew the policies because of the policies were not covered durring the debates. There was plenty of evidence from both candidates past performance/judgments to make the decision even with the lack of discourse during the campaigns. Your premise is dead wrong.

527 anotherindyfilmguy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:16:28pm
Those days are long gone. Since 1988, Democrats have become more conservative on economics – and Republicans have become more conservative on social issues.

My two centavos fwiw:
This is a flawed analogy/argument/proposition and very out of context...

Democrats are not more fiscally conservative, they caused the current economic crunch. By going to a more religious extreme there will be a further alienation of people from the Republican agenda. The problem is letting extremists on the topic of (pick any) run a platform OR sit out because they are one issue voters and will burn down the house because they don't like the drapes.

Reagan's era came about because of the excesses of Democrat big government programs. That has not changed, Democrats are still all for the cradle to grave socialist expansion of government with the added icing of class warfare etc. Without Palin this would have been a total blowout for Obama. Palin dragged McCain UP in the polls, not down.

Want to win elections? Stick to the three basic party values of small government, less taxes and strong national defense while being positive about both the present state and future of the country as a whole. McCain comes across as a negative person/typical politician who talks about his opponent as if he being polite on the Senate floor trying to cut a deal and about whom it is very, very hard to get excited. Palin is a very dynamic and positive reformer who should be the Republican nominee (or at least VP) in 2012.

Want to win elections?
Be willing to get dirty with the Democrats. Not dirty in the sense of committing blatant fraud but dirty in the sense of scrapping with them and tearing them down the same way they tear us down. Be willing to fight to stay in the polling station as a monitor instead of walking out after being told to leave (as in when that is a direct violation of a court order saying you cannot be removed from the polling place etc)

The real reason the Democrats won this election is the lack of persecuting for tampering with the elections and preventing fraud at the polls. In PA we get mad about it every election cycle but then the next time around it's the same thing because no one is hung out to dry and replaced with someone who won't repeat the process... Want to "fix it"? Fix election fraud.
Be willing to investigate and prosecute the people who stole this election so they cannot steal the next one. In the primarys cut any state's current number of votes to one third of the current total if they allow cross over voting to "fix" that problem until crossovers are not allowed to undercut the other side in those states.

Don't want to abandon single issue voting even when the other side is against how you want it? Not willing to get into a fight to make sure the polling place isn't stolen for the other side? Not willing to call out the other side on their problems and just want to blame ourselves? Then get ready for losing next time around. Stop blaming the electorate and get out and scrap for what is right.

The real reason we lost? MSM. Yes. Voter fraud? Yes. There are hundreds of little reasons over the last several years that added up to this loss but possibly the core of it comes down to the candidate himself running an "honorable campaign" that only briefly, nearing the end after picking the VP, touched on the fundamentals of smaller government, less taxes and could not effectively point the finger at the other side for the current economic bump.

528 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:16:32pm

re: #495 hman

You must live in a different world than I do. I live in Georgia, a religious state, and no one wants to teach "Creationism". This is such a small issue that it merits no concern.

You're wrong:

[Link: openweb.tvnews.vanderbilt.edu...]

529 cgrow  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:16:37pm

I agree. Why can't the republicans get back to their small government roots? The social conservatives have taken the party toward censorship of media and limiting personal freedoms. There's nothing small about a government that does that.

530 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:16:42pm

The political leadership of the social conservative movement is really abysmyl. Tony Perkins in particular behaves like a gangster and James Dobson lays it on too thick. Say what you will about Jerry Falwell, at one time he was a very shrewd tactical political operative. He understood his role in a winning coalition. Too bad the same can't be said for Perkins and Dobson.

531 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:16:52pm

re: #497 SixDegrees

As I mentioned above, their agenda is fundamentally anti-conservative. It promotes massive government intrusion in what ought to be private matters, which flies in the face of the smaller, less intrusive government espoused by Conservatism.

A point I've been trying to make, but you make it much better than I. Thank you.

532 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:16:53pm

re: #460 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Personal Opinion, I'd have been a lot more comfortable with a Romney/Palin ticket than the McCain/Palin ticket, but that ship has sailed.

Agreed. And before we jump on Governor Palin for her church, let's remember what the MSM did to Mitt Romney and his Mormonism. They savaged him for it during the primaries. They also did the same to John F. Kennedy and his Catholicism in 1960 (as well as others before him like Al Smith). The candidate they did not do this to was Obama, and he spent years in a church that preached hatred of America.

I see as much wrong with Palin belonging to a Pentacostal church as I do with Romney's Latter Day Saints as I do with my own Roman Catholicism. None of the mentioned preach the hatred found in Obama's church.

533 scratch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:17:01pm

re: #363 DeafDog

...All that said - I wish McCain had picked Romney in retrospect.

Lots and lots of armchair quarterbacking going on, and I don't buy any of it. Given the types of issues and types of coverage that dominated this election, I don't think there's any way two standard white dudes were going to win. I think under the circumstances, McCain/Palin did as well as any Republican ticket could have.

Example: time and again I saw a speech or a debate, and afterward a voter would tell a reporter that McCain didn't address such-and-such and issue, when in fact he had very clearly articulated his position on that issue. How in the world would Romney have changed that?

534 twincitiesgirl  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:17:24pm

re: #13 Sharmuta

I'm an independent and I don't like the judicial branch usurping the legislative branch of government. I think the fact that McCain, who some call a RINO, was the Republican nominee shows that the conservative wing of the party is having less of an influence not more.

How much did the democratic cross over vote in the primaries affect the selection of McCain? I supported Giuliani and he seemed to fall off the radar early on, while McCain who was dead last came from behind and took the nomination. Why is cross over voting still allowed in the primaries and how many of these folks were registered by ACORN specifically to eliminate the GOP's strongest candidates?

/am I way off base

535 right_wing2  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:17:31pm

The only way I could see the Obamessiah taking any heat on the economy is if, during his first 6 or 8 months in power, things improved. He'd then take credit for turning things around because of his infinite wisdom & compassion & power. If things started tanking down the road, it'd be a bit harder, IMHO, for him to suddenly blame everything on Bush, the out-of-power Republican party and greedy, fearful, bitter, angry, hateful, racist etc.

And no, before the looney left comes in and starts saying we want the economy to tank, I DON'T want a bad economy. I think it's going to be bad because of terrible policies, but I want to see as many people as possible to succeed to the greatest extent their abilities, gifts and hard work take them.

536 rawmuse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:18:04pm

All I ever wanted was fiscal conservatism and a strong national defense.
I don't care who puts what body part where or smokes what.
But I just don't think I will ever see that in my life time.
Not after yesterday.

537 MadJadBad  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:18:11pm
The Latin vote may be liberal in many aspects but when it comes to family and morality issues they are socially conservative


I always thought that conservatives dropped the ball by not countering the "it takes a village" attitude with "No, it takes a family. Let's try to strengthen families"

538 medaura18586  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:18:12pm

re: #458 baxtrice

I am a religious conservative, However. We need to remember that fiscal conservatism, limited government, civil liberties and personal responsibility is the way forward.

Religion should be kept in the private life, and not forced upon others.

My two cents if you are interested.

Absolutely. I have no problem at all with social conservatism in one's private life. But making socially convervative issues and religiously motivated innuendos part of the political discourse is poisonous and suicidal.

To each his own, in his home.

539 Lorenska  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:18:21pm

re: #477 jainphx

But only for those that buy into the "RELIGIOUS" hype. Look here in Arizona, all so called social issues oriented proposals passed and passed handily. Stop with this demonisation of a good women, who didn't get much help from McCain

I agree - if she'd been let off her leash and allowed to go after the Wright/Ayers/Rezko issues like she wanted, to really highlight the sleaziness of Obama's character, I think it would have made a difference. McCain is classy and polite to a fault, and I'm afraid they hamstrung her and her natural ability to rally the troops with true (not negative, TRUE) facts about Obama.

540 RubyTuesday  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:18:40pm

So...first under the bus are the Christians? OK. So if the founding fathers were alive today, that would be all or most of them too. One Nation Under GOD means nothing anymore. If this message becomes popular, Christians will stay at home, ensuring bigger wins for liberals in the future. The umbrella of conservatism just got caught in the winds of change and has been carried away.

541 markx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:18:46pm

re: #522 wintercat

McCain's rush to be involved with the bailout made him appear to be a political opportunist. The bailout was shoved down America's throat and it was clear that nobody really knew what the heck was going on...except that we were spending more money than imaginable on this mess. Obama got a complete pass on the issue. That is where his lack of time in office served him well because even though the was a major recipient of Fanny Mae cash, he was never perceived as one of the insiders. McCain did not make the case that Obama and the Dems were responsible for the fiasco either. SNL made it for Pete's sake and McCain should have jumped all over that issue and kept pounding at it. He poked at it a few times but he never brought down the hammer.

Yeah, McCain's attempt to score points against Obama during the bail out by not having 'the time to debate' has to be one of his Top 5 bad moves during the campaign.

542 faraway  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:18:49pm

re: #330 Charles

She didn't just "grow up" in that church. You need to check the facts on this. She attended well into adulthood.

Attending church is bad? Not going to win elections with the atheist crowd.

543 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:18:54pm

More on creationists trying to push their hooey in schools in Georgia:

[Link: query.nytimes.com...]

This is what "obsession" looks like.

544 Sorge  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:18:58pm

One last thing before I go think about my future... (thinking of becoming a scientist, my childhood dream.)

Please, please check out Thomas Sowell's column today on gay marriage. Perhaps people should reflect and think before overturning thousands of years of human experience over rhetoric about "rights."

Sowell on Gay Marriage

545 yesandno  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:18:59pm

re: #301 SixDegrees

I completely agree. Social conservatism is the sort of thing the Taliban practice - trying to ram their religious beliefs down everyone's throats. It flies in the face of core Conservative values that espouse limited, non-intrusive government that keeps meddling in the lives of individuals to the barest minimum possible, while providing a country where everyone - and that means everyone - is free to pursue their own aspirations and hold their own beliefs.

I'm certain that the pro-life contingent will chime in at this point and as, "What about the babies rights?" At the bottom, this is a religious viewpoint, and has no place in the political arena of a country whose Constitution explicitly forbids the imposition of any religion by the government. There are many who disagree with you, and they have as much right to pursue their beliefs as you do, free of any impediments and constraints imposed by you or anyone else's religious convictions. In return, you get to live in a country where you will never be forced to have an abortion or to perform one if you choose not to.

blockquote>

The Right to LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. I don't think that this was religious set of principles...rather ethical ones. Without Life, the rest don't matter. And because we cannot discuss life without being charged as religious fanatics, we cannot even begin to come to policy decisions based not on a belief system as much as an ethical one. Liberty doesn't exist in a vacuum.

546 piglet-u93  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:19:03pm

re: #518 markx

Have you read Steyn's America Alone? If not, do so.

I have read it. Depressing read and just motivates me to do something about it.

547 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:19:04pm

re: #453 nyc redneck

The only way McCain would have won is if he had a serious economic plan.

In retrospect, the republican primaries were all about Iraq, Oil and Immigration.

The general was all about the Economy.

The republican primary did not prepare Johnny Mac for the general and he was not well suited to change message on a dime.

Mitt may have been able to help - had he been the VP - but I doubt it.

548 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:19:12pm

re: #504 Cattt

Hegemony.

Hmm. It seems like however it's framed, it sounds oppressive. How about "Big Happy Fun Ball"!

549 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:19:15pm

re: #442 Fenway_Nation


So the GOP should jettison mainstream Catholics and Protestants so they don't appear too beholden to the 'religous right' Dominionists?

I don't think that's what's being proposed here. What needs to happen, in my opinion, is for the Conservative movement to say in no uncertain terms that we are pledged to providing an environment where you - and everyone else - are free to pursue your own beliefs and hold your own values, in your home, in your church, in your private schools, and that we will never impose one religion's views through the power of government. We should also make it clear that attempts to use the Conservative movement to enact a religious agenda using government power are not welcome, and are explicitly at odds with Conservative values of limiting government intrusion and with the Constitution.

550 baxtrice  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:19:19pm

re: #521 moderndayprayer

How exactly is religion being forced into anyone's life now? That's such utter horseshit! I never have to engage any deity or house of worship because... guess what? I don't want to. People make it sound like we're living under the Inquisition!

It is unfortunate, but a reality that most Americans don't like being "preached" to. Social conservatives hell bent on "saving the soul" of America are touching a nerve, and most Americans not of faith are too sensitive to take it. We need to step back, pare down the message and learn to take a different and more effective route.

551 Basho  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:19:22pm

re: #488 Basho

Uhh... it appears my post disappeared. Feel free to delete it. My point there was that social issues are better left to the ballot box than activist courts and government bureaucrats.

552 faraway  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:19:35pm

I can't keep up with this post. It's moving way too fast. bbl

553 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:19:39pm

re: #540 RubyTuesday

So...first under the bus are the Christians? OK. So if the founding fathers were alive today, that would be all or most of them too. One Nation Under GOD means nothing anymore. If this message becomes popular, Christians will stay at home, ensuring bigger wins for liberals in the future. The umbrella of conservatism just got caught in the winds of change and has been carried away.

What are you talking about? Who said that?

554 vagabond trader  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:19:40pm

re: #301 SixDegrees

I was not going to "chime in" but some of your commentary is over the top wrong. Taliban and Christians on an equal footing? How many American Christians have beheaded or stoned their women for venturing outdoors unaccompanied? Unlimited abortion, you mean like partial birth, a barbaric form of murder that has been soundly defeated by even the most liberal legislators? Except your next POTUS, that is. btw, the liberals sure as hell use the courts to push their special brand of morality issues.

555 markx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:20:05pm

re: #546 piglet-u93

I have read it. Depressing read and just motivates me to do something about it.

Like have more children?

LOL

556 trombettas  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:20:14pm

I posted this reply to David Frum at National Post:

Your entire post is about the survival of the Republican party without acknowledging that the GOP actually stands for some important values and core beliefs. You suggest we abandon our principles ... for votes. There's something very sleazy in your post and very obviously so.

David: how are we to win over college graduates when colleges are dominated by leftist professors?

The failures of the GOP during the Bush years are obvious (and not all his fault):

1. massive growth of gov't.

2. scandal upon Republican scandal

3. Iraq War -- the management of the post war period. We should have gone in with overwhelming force, prevented the outbreak of anarchy, and not disenfranchised the Sunnis.

4. Failure to lead on the economy and head off the meltdown.

Solutions:

We have to think about what we can do about the leftist majority in the college profession.

We have to think about how we can articulate conservative values to the masses that are brainwashed by liberal, bankrupt ideology.

You suggest, Mr. Frum, that what we need to do is understand where these brainwashed moveon.org, dailykos zombies are at ... and adjust our views to them:

You say: "To do so will involve painful change, on issues ranging from the environment to abortion. And it will involve potentially even more painful changes of style and tone: toward a future that is less overtly religious"

We conservatives who honestly don't believe in anthropohenic global warming should nonetheless pretend to believe and adjust our economy on Al Gore's timeframe so we can really push ourselves into a Depression?

Abortion: Those of us who believe that little innocent humans in the 3rd trimester of their development deserve protection under the same Constitution that allows Tim Robbins to keep breathing should just "adjust" our style and tone for votes?

We should be less overtly religious? Exactly which GOP candidate was this way in the last two years? Who? I swear ... listening to you is like reading a dailykos diary.

If I may borrow from David Brooks ... you Mr. Frum are a cancer on the GOP.

Victor T

Queens, NY

aka "Vic the I.T. Guy"

557 southernfriedchickenhawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:20:22pm

Wow the MTV republicans are out in full force. So you think this loss was due to social stances by the traditional GOP? Guess that explains that landside defeat of Prop 8 in ultra-conservative California? Jesus Christ, it amazes me how desperate some people are to be recognized as enlighted and hipsters. Sad. Sorry, but you guys are 100% wrong, but have at it if it makes you feel better.

558 medaura18586  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:20:28pm

Charles,

I'd love to hear more from you on this topic in terms of both posts and thread discussions.

My taste is probably not very representative though.

559 drv208  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:20:41pm

I think Bobby Jindal can very much be the future of this party. An explanation will require two points. (1) social conservativism within the republican party needs to be reframed, perhaps deemphasized, but not discarded; (2) Bobby Jindal is the candidate best positioned to accomplish this task.

First, you are correct to point out that a strong tension exists between the republican party's need to attract independents and young voters and its need to maintain enthusiasm among evangelicals. Going too far either way would be destructive to the entire republican agenda, as the party simply wouldn't win any elections. Consequently, I suggest an effort to contextualize, reframe, and perhaps even deemphasize the social conservativism of the party, but not abandon it.
For example, in the minds of most people my age (23), "republicans hate gay people." We must fight this perception. Rather than argue that "gays should not be allowed to marry," republicans should argue that they are "against the use of the state for the purpose of effecting social change." The state should reflect society, not change it. This is indeed what the Republican Party's federal policy is towards gay marriage. The DOMA, for example, rather than making gay marriage impossible (it did no such thing) relieves states from their ordinary obligation of recognizing marriages performed in other states where such marriages involved homosexual couples. This is designed to prevent a small minority (say, gay californians) from seizing control of the supreme court in california, getting a ruling saying that it is unconstitutional for the state to bar gay marriage, and then enforcing that ruling in Kentucky, Alabama, or Florida. Thus, a small group in california is allowed -- through the power of the state, an inherently coersive and evil entity -- to usurp the will of the population in Alabama to further a radical social agenda. At the same time, the party should drop all efforts to ACTUALLY bar gay marriage (leave those who wish to accomplish this to achieve it through nonpartisan ballot measures -- such laws do not require the republican party to pass as california's prop. 8 clearly demonstrates), and should in fact create civil unions. Thus "hating gays" becomes "loving democracy."
A similar tact can (and indeed used to) be taken with respect to your favorite pet issue of Intelligent Design. It is not the province of the state or federal government to determine what children are taught in their school districts. Education is incredibly important, as it is literally a form of thought control. Schools should teach what the parents of a schooldistrict want their children to be taught. If they want their children to be backwards rubes, so be it. A 4 day unit in evolution isn't going to save them anyway. But it's wrong and dangerous and threatening for the Federal Government (through the court system) to say that parents can't teach their children what they want their children to learn. Again, not "anti-science" but "pro freedom. Freedom comes with choice and responsibility. This includes the choice to be ignorant and the responsibility to deal with the consequences."

This brings me to point Two. I think Jindal is the only candidate out there who can facilitate this realignment while simultaneously strengthening the conservative economic and non-social message. He also can help republicans carve into the youth vote. First, his social conservative credentials are unimpeachable and he has a compelling personal conversion story. The evangelical wing should love him, and will allow a hedging against any shift on social issues. (running out of space so must wrap this up) He also will help garner the youth vote. Again, the pro freedom message is the most important factor in winning, and this includes the youth vote. But also college students are insufferable egotists who have college on the brain and will not vote for someone (like Palin) who went to a poorer school than they did. The hatred for Palin at my school was visceral.

560 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:20:43pm

re: #521 moderndayprayer

How exactly is religion being forced into anyone's life now? That's such utter horseshit! I never have to engage any deity or house of worship because... guess what? I don't want to. People make it sound like we're living under the Inquisition!

It's the perception of the right as pushing creationism, and being against "gay rights". People see this as legislating morality and they reject it.

561 moonstone  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:21:18pm

re: #493 Sharmuta

Speaking of strawmen, your Saudi Arabia link was completely absurd. The only "morality" that conservatives would like to legislate is regarding abortion. We have one of the most liberal policies in the world toward abortion; even the Europeans are stricter about it than we are. You don't have to be a crazed fundamentalist to be against abortion.

Once again, we're seeing lots of true colors around here today.

562 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:21:23pm

re: #551 Basho

Uhh... it appears my post disappeared. Feel free to delete it.

Messed up an HTML tag; I fixed it.

563 Haflinger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:21:30pm

Charles writes "As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win."

Really?

AZ 102: Won
AR 1: Won
CA Prop 8: Won
CO Amendment 48: Won
FL Amendment 2: Won

564 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:21:38pm

re: #534 twincitiesgirl

I'm an independent and I don't like the judicial branch usurping the legislative branch of government. I think the fact that McCain, who some call a RINO, was the Republican nominee shows that the conservative wing of the party is having less of an influence not more.

How much did the democratic cross over vote in the primaries affect the selection of McCain? I supported Giuliani and he seemed to fall off the radar early on, while McCain who was dead last came from behind and took the nomination. Why is cross over voting still allowed in the primaries and how many of these folks were registered by ACORN specifically to eliminate the GOP's strongest candidates?

/am I way off base

I think you're right on judicial activism - but Giuliani destroyed himself with the silly decision not to compete in the early primaries and wait for FL. The McCain ball was already rolling by then (and, no, I don't think it had much to do with ACORN).

565 medaura18586  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:21:41pm

re: #560 Sharmuta

It's the perception of the right as pushing creationism, and being against "gay rights". People see this as legislating morality and they reject it.

Let's not forget abortion too.

566 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:21:42pm

re: #478 honestjay

Republicans should emphasize the libertarian wing of the party platform and diminish the influence of the intolerant in the party if you want to appeal to a new generation of voters.

There is no intolerence in the republican party. I cannot tolerate you even thinking that!

567 inspectorudy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:21:44pm

WTF is wrong with you people. What did the ONE do after he won the primary? He went conservative on almost every issue! Go back to his primary positions and compare where he ended up. Almost every issue became a conservative slant. 2nd amend, against then for. Taxes raise for all, then 95% tax cuts. Infanticide, to respect for life and pro life position. Meeting with foreign dictators with no precond. to I never said that I would meet without precond. Pull out of Iraq in 16 months to no precipitous pull out. No drilling off shore to I'll consider it. There are many more but you can see the need to go to the conservative side to get elected. Why in the hell would we want to go to the left? If he had stayed to his original left position he would have never been elected. I haven't been to a church in 30 years except for weddings and funerals and I am a social Conservative. Stop trying to tie religious groups with people who believe that marriage is between a one man and one woman. If we don't keep some of our heritage we will be like a waiting lounge at an international airport.

568 faraway  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:21:53pm

re: #543 Charles

More on creationists trying to push their hooey in schools in Georgia:

[Link: query.nytimes.com...]

This is what "obsession" looks like.

But, Charles, they will never get away with it. Leftists won't allow it. Let them fight that fight. If it manages to creep into some pissant school district in South Georgia for a few months, don't worry, the ACLU will act much faster than we can. It's self correcting. That's why I think this crusade is not helpful.

569 nyc redneck  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:22:18pm

i did not get the feeling that sarah was a radical conservative. she appeared to
be a religious person w/ basic values that many people could relate to.
as charles mentioned, she did not push creationism.
i think she had huge appeal and did very well considering she was vaulted on the national stage from nowhere.
i found huckabee unacceptable. i would draw the line w/ his brand of brash fundamentalism. or maybe it's just his personality.
i don't think conservatism has to focus on religion explicitly, tho values and ideals do come from religion.

570 medaura18586  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:22:19pm

re: #561 moonstone

You do have to be quite a fundamentalist to be against abortion.

571 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:22:21pm

Much of the disagreement about social conservatism in government would disappear if we could build a wall of separation between state and school.

572 Boolz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:22:41pm

re: #509 arethusa

You're still not getting it. Those who murder are condemned and punished by society, because society has agreed that murder is an intolerable, heinous crime. It doesn't matter what percent of the country is Christian. They will have varying positions on social issues, and they will most emphatically not take kindly to being told what to do if they don't agree with it. Society is not in agreement on socially conservative issues, as this very thread is demonstrating, and most people don't want others' moral viewpoints imposed on them.

but they ARE told what to do...thou shall not kill (murder)...thou shall not steal (theft)...thou shall not bear false witness (perjury/slander/libel)...thou shall not commit adultery and thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife (what do you think most divorce cases have to deal with)? Sure, we don't stone people for carving statues of Zeus, or mouthing off to ones parents, but a lot of our laws are based off Judea/Christianity codes, and to suggest otherwise is just silly.

573 Parker in US  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:22:45pm

Happy "Hope and Change" Day Lizards

I know I am going to get slapped for saying it but I feel that there is no place for religion in politics and this has been one of the major causes for the down fall of the Republican Party. I also feel that when the Republicans controlled the Congress and Senate they lost their freaking minds blowing money on stupid stuff. That said BHO did not win this election running on a far left agenda he had to adjust his agenda to the center to win. This tells us that the majority of Americans are not right or left but in the middle. George Bush won his first term on an agenda of unity not right or left but middle. The problem is no matter which party gets elected the agenda then becomes right or left depending on the party. So if they swing the pendulum right then the people swing it back to left because in reality the majority is in the middle.

574 Dan G.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:22:50pm

re: #353 Sharmuta

Evidence shmevidence... ;)

575 Crusty  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:22:51pm

re: #398 jainphx

I see we are buying into the media fostered hype that Palin hurt McCAIN. Hog wash, McCain hurt Palin. If you want to wander in the political desert for a generation, keep thinking that social morals are for the troglodytes. EVERY TIME conservatism is tried it wins and wins big, have we forgotten, or are we traveling down the G-Dless route to our demise. Lets not cut off our nose to spite our face.

I agree, people need to lay off Palin. She brought conservative charisma to the Republican ticket that McCain just does not have, which has hurt him in past elections. Plus, unlike Obama, she had actual legislative achievements, although the press of course mainly ignored them.

McCain's problem is that he made the same mistake as John Kerry did. He wanted you to vote for him just because he wasn't the other guy.

If you read Palin's biography, you can see she's a real get-back-on-the-horse kind of gal. I can see her maybe running for the senate before getting back into presidential politics but back she will be. At 44, this chick is just beginning, and I'm excited to see what she can do without Gramps slowing her down.

576 SaneInMN  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:22:51pm

David Frum got the candidate he wanted. A squish, who saved his worst venom for his own party. The addition of Palin brought along conservative radio (too late), much needed money (McCain took more money in following his selection of Palin than in any other 48hr. period during his campaign), and enough votes to salvage the Senate. Palin has a bright future in the Republican party if she wants it. Frum needs to find a new line of work.

577 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:22:52pm

re: #540 RubyTuesday

So...first under the bus are the Christians? OK. So if the founding fathers were alive today, that would be all or most of them too. One Nation Under GOD means nothing anymore. If this message becomes popular, Christians will stay at home, ensuring bigger wins for liberals in the future. The umbrella of conservatism just got caught in the winds of change and has been carried away.

Oh come on now. "UNDER GOD" was not even in the pledge until 1958. Go back and do some study on the history of this country. Your argument is so old, tired, and WRONG.

No, if Christians knew anything about the Founding Fathers, they would understand that "religion" was not part of the platform that formed this country. MORALS were our foundation, not religion.

Just the fact that you use the word "christian" proves my point. As a Christian, you have NO monopoly on morals.

Sorry.

578 Steve Rogers  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:22:53pm

re: #464 bitterclinger_in_PA
The US Constitution was written by men who were inspired by God's Word in the Bible.
No it wasn't. It was written by Deists, not Christians.

Read "Darwin's Demise" on creationism and that will change your minds if you have any doubt about it.

Evolution is a fact. Science's use of the term "theory" does not mean "hunch." In science, a theory is a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation. Recall the "Theory of Gravity" or the "Germ Theory" don't mean "guess." They are as real as it gets - just like evolution.

Please, please, please keep your creationism out of elections. That scares away more voters than you realize.

579 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:23:09pm

re: #404 Iron Fist

I have a real problem with Obama's Church. Imagine that Palin was a member of the Aryan Brotherhood, and you'd be looking at an equivalent situation. Obama's Church was radically anti-white and anti-American.

I felt like that should count for something. I apparently was in the minority.

I have a problem with the ideology at Obama's 'church' because it's obviously politically motivated and exploits bigotry, hatred and racism among the congregation.

In fact, I don't even consider his 'church' a church and I'm a UCC member. Never, ever heard that kind of racist political crap coming out of the pulpit before.

Christian churches around the globe have various flavors of Christianity, including the Pentacostals, but to conflate them with the sheer lunacy and political danger of Obama's church is not reasonable, IMO.

580 Dayenu  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:23:26pm

You know... I got a very naive suggestion... extremely naive, and I'm sure it will get shot down... but bear with me. It's a simple idea, and I want to know why it won't work.

If the newspapers... the big newspapers, the LA Times, NY Times, USA Today and the like are all bought, owned, and operated by the leftists...

...what would it take to make an intelligent, objective, reality base, anti-Jihadist, pro-American newspaper to do real reporting and be the "Jet Blue" of the newspaper industry?

Okay, tell me why I'm crazy now.

581 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:23:28pm

re: #561 moonstone

re: #493 Sharmuta
Once again, we're seeing lots of true colors around here today.


Always a good thing. Reps/conservatives will only be a strong force if the force can be defined.

582 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:23:43pm

re: #501 lennysquiggy

Completely agree. Well stated.

583 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:23:44pm

re: #506 bosforus

I got your point though, so it's all good. :) And I kind of agree. Like a UN, EU kind of thing. Global organizations. Those kinds of group make me wary at times.

*sigh* Yeah. I guess it's a good thing we'll all be dead by then. We'll have to make due with our current state of destructive flux, obviously. I guess all we can do is try to sift the wheat from the chaffe and try not to blow it all up in the process. That and extrapolate on the most viable social theories.

584 honestjay  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:23:45pm

Palin would have been taken more seriously if the McCain camp had presented her as a competent governor, not as a hockey mom. Her gender was obvious; her qualifications to be VP were not.

585 Kragar  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:23:45pm

It seems like some people take not supporting Politicians with a Social Conservative agenda as a attack on all Christians. Bullshit, complete and utter Bullshit. It shows the same logic as calling someone racist because they didn't support Obama.

586 hman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:23:47pm

re: #448 Charles

I'm really sick and tired of being told I'm "obsessed" about creationism. This is a slimy tactic to try to get me to stop posting about it. You're not welcome to post comments here any more.

Well excuse us. But as a scientist who works with many other scientists, I disagree with your point of view. It's misinformed and over the top whether you recognize it or not.

587 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:23:52pm

re: #484 Jim D

It seems to me that some want to have it both ways on Prop 8. On other threads I hear it's all about judicial activism, not about enforcing conservative morals.
Now on this thread it's 'evidence' that everyone thinks social conservatism is just dandy.

Prop 8 was an end run around the effective defense put up in the courts, that the ban on gay marriage was somehow unconstitutional in regards to the California State Constitution. Yes on Prop 8 adds the ban to the State Constitution and thereby prevents an overturn via judicial activism. So it was about to some degree.
As to this 'evidence', it is only evidence that roughly 53% of the CA electorate think social conservatism is dandy (interesting word choice for this topic Jim) or that they think the whole gay sex thing, a predictable result of a gay marriage, is icky.

588 Soona'  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:23:54pm

re: #340 ArmyWife

I agree in part, and respectfully disagree in large part with this. Republicans have ignored their base - social AND fiscal conservatives. Social conservatism doesn't, and shouldn't, equal Fundamentalist Christians. To me, we roll it all back to what our founding father's advocated. We throw political correctness away, we throw "free to be you and me" socialist indoctrination crap away, too. We don't advocate moral relativity. There is, in fact, a right and wrong no matter what part of the city your reside. In schools we teach reading, writing, science, math and music (OK, fine, art too). If you want to teach creationism or spaghetti monster theology at home, be my guest, but it certainly doesn't need to be taught in an academic setting. Communism, Womens studies and social justice isn't required in academia, either. But we don't need to be afraid of Judeo-Christian values, those are core to our Country's greatness. Bring back Christmas! Get rid of Kwanzaa! We go back to being a melting pot where we are Americans with an American culture, and damn proud of it!

We advocate accountability and responsibility no matter what color you are or where you fall in the social strata. We don't tolerate discrimination at any level or from any one. We stop allowing citizens to wallow in victim hood and inspire self reliance. We take back our courts and advocate strict constructionalism. We stop making excuses and we stop capitulating to the left in hopes they will lean back just a bit - they won't. What we've gotten for this is the left indoctrinating in schools and universities, churning out citizens who don't understand the government isn't and shouldn't be our solution to each and every problem. We need government, but we don't need as much as we have right now.

Thank you. The next platform for the next election should be "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". Get the government out of my life as much as possible. If I want to be a holy-rolling-creationist freak, then that should be my right. If I want to be an atheist then that should be my right as well. Social conservatism isn't a list of "things" that someone should be denied, but an idea, based on, yes, moral values that were supposedly given to us at the beginning of this nation.
I agree with you completely AW.

589 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:23:58pm

re: #540 RubyTuesday

The Founders were mostly Deists.

590 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:23:58pm

re: #568 faraway

But, Charles, they will never get away with it. Leftists won't allow it. Let them fight that fight. If it manages to creep into some pissant school district in South Georgia for a few months, don't worry, the ACLU will act much faster than we can. It's self correcting. That's why I think this crusade is not helpful.

Really? That's why you think it's "not helpful?"

A question: do you believe in creationism?

591 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:24:11pm

re: #550 baxtrice

Social conservatives hell bent on "saving the soul" of America are touching a nerve, and most Americans not of faith are too sensitive to take it.

Michelle Obama promised that The One would "FIX our souls," though.

No politician on the right has promised to "save souls" in so many words but the upcoming President is supposed to "FIX" them. How creepy is that?

592 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:24:21pm

re: #523 freetoken

Nov 4, 2008 is evidence that many people don't really care what Rev. Wright says, or they approve. That Obama was a pew-warmer at that church didn't pull much weight with enough people, which is likely what study groups showed the McCain campaign early on, so it wasn't pursued as a talking point.

I'm not sure of all that. I think people would would be deeply offended by Reverend Wright, if they knew the story. I spoke to one undecided voter, the day before the election, who had no idea what went on in Reverend Wright's church. I told her a few Wright quotes, mentioned the connections to NOI and Hamas, and she was instantly appalled.

Obama and the media invented a different narrative, in which Obama's religious beliefs were depicted as mainstream, and Palin's were depicted as backwards and bizarre, even though the opposite was much closer to the truth. Someone in the GOP needs to figure out how to invent a great story, from scratch. It's going to be very difficult with everyone in Hollywood and the entire media establishment working for the other team, but it's got to be done.

593 piglet-u93  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:24:30pm

re: #555 markx

Like have more children?

LOL

I can only dream of it at my age.

594 NY Nana  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:25:13pm

re: #21 Bobibutu

It's just an pre-adjustment to my forthcoming tax increases. Didn't you get the word?

Whoops! And anyone who does not believe that we all will receive massive tax increases from Obama, please raise your hand?

I just heard that he is seriously considering Sen. John Corzine (D NJ) for Sec. of the Treasury...he is a crook, and a POS, and so bad that my lefty son & d.i.l.who live in Jersey hate hime.

595 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:25:15pm

re: #580 Dayenu
Anything with a description of "anti-fill in the blank" will be immediately deemed racist.

596 sagamoregal  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:25:23pm

Psss - one of the major reasons that I am Republican is that I loathe unions with every fiber of my being. White collar or blue collar unions. I loathe them more than the Taliban. They have done a lot more harm to our country over the years than any Taliban radical could think of doing.

I will only leave the Republican party if it ever decides to start sucking on the Union teat just to get votes.

597 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:25:27pm

re: #586 hman

Well excuse us. But as a scientist who works with many other scientists, I disagree with your point of view. It's misinformed and over the top whether you recognize it or not.

Then you're welcome to post comments elsewhere. Maybe you can find a nice site full of creationist scientists. Try answersingenesis.org.

598 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:25:39pm

re: #522 wintercat

Yeah it's gut-check time for Palin and I like your idea of her going to senate to build credibility. IMO, Palin is damaged goods for 2012. She may do a small campaign, but I think it will sink. She has a good chance of re-emerging in 2016.

599 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:25:49pm

re: #25 livefreeor die

... A teacher in my son's elementary school assigned his class as homework making a 3-D model of Obama.

Obama is two dimensional.

600 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:25:57pm

re: #540 RubyTuesday

So...first under the bus are the Christians? OK. So if the founding fathers were alive today, that would be all or most of them too. One Nation Under GOD means nothing anymore. If this message becomes popular, Christians will stay at home, ensuring bigger wins for liberals in the future. The umbrella of conservatism just got caught in the winds of change and has been carried away.

"Social conservatives" (or Christians, if that is what you want to call them) did not stay at home in this election. They voted against gay marriage in three states, and voted for Obama's liberal agenda in two states.

Not all so-cons (or Christians, for that matter) are Republicans that support an overall conservative agenda. Many of them are Democrats that support an overall liberal agenda.

All their base are not belong to us.

601 mcmeador  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:26:06pm

I don't think we need to embrace social conservatism to make a comeback. We're already lined up for a hell of one with an inexperienced Democratic president and another Democratic Congress to continue in the footsteps of the failure of the current Congress. And the best part of it all is that Obama is inheriting a mess. Come 2012 Americans will once again be fed up with Democrats and we'll be able to make a tremendous comeback. This is 1976 all over again. Just give it 4 more years...1980 will be here eventually. Unfortunately we can count on dumb lefties to forget their mistakes again and make the same dumb decision again in the not-too-distant future.

602 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:26:08pm

re: #583 Salem

I guess it's a good thing we'll all be dead by then.


Thanks for the much needed laugh!

603 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:26:10pm

re: #572 Boolz

but they ARE told what to do...thou shall not kill (murder)...thou shall not steal (theft)...thou shall not bear false witness (perjury/slander/libel)...thou shall not commit adultery and thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife (what do you think most divorce cases have to deal with)? Sure, we don't stone people for carving statues of Zeus, or mouthing off to ones parents, but a lot of our laws are based off Judea/Christianity codes, and to suggest otherwise is just silly.

But you're talking about common mores that everyone agrees on and whose violators are punished and making them into social conservatism. That's not what we're talking about here.

604 hokiecon  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:26:14pm

re: #525 faraway

Let's see...
[fill in the blank conservative] - chimp, hitler, liar, goofy, stupid, not curious, religious zealot, erratic, hick, redneck, etc.

Why is this a surprise to everyone? Bush, Quayle, McCain, Palin, Romney, Huck, Fred.


That's going to be the hardest part, overcoming a disadvantage in the media. The GOP has to figure out a way to reach out to those in the middle:
1. Don't scare off the social moderates
2. Don't scare off the social conservatives by nominating a "country club" conservative
3. Establish a connection like Reagan did with the college age men and women
4. Assure the Seniors that Social Security is safe and that liberals are the ones that they should be scared of.
5. Avoid extremist religious candidates
6. Embrace the Constitution

/my two cents

605 Wookieelips  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:26:18pm

McPalin lost because for the last 8 years, the left, with lots of help from the media, has managed to paint all conservatives with the same "nazi" brush. Every time a conservative commentator or religious leader said something a little nutty, it was attributed to all conservatives. They all became gun-crazy, bible-thumping, woman-hating, gay-bashing, intolerant bigots in the eyes of the media. They repeated the lie until it became truth. Hell, most lefties still think Fallujah is the most violent city in Iraq, simply because it used to be, and the MSM never bothered to report that it became the safest city in Iraq thanks to our Marines. And the lefties certainly never bothered to look up the truth. Just like they didn't bother to find out if anything reported by the MSM might need to be taken with a grain of salt, if not dismissed entirely.
Fox News reports both sides and doesn't disparage Republicans and suddenly they're not to be trusted. Social conservatives disliked McCain, but suddenly McCain became a Bush clone thanks to the MSM. People believe what the people in the box in the living room tell them waaay to often. It's taken years, but they finally managed it.
While I will not hate and complain like a moonbat, I will chuckle to myself when the MSM and moonbats turn on Obama.

606 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:26:23pm
But, Charles, they will never get away with it. Leftists won't allow it. Let them fight that fight. If it manages to creep into some pissant school district in South Georgia for a few months, don't worry, the ACLU will act much faster than we can. It's self correcting. That's why I think this crusade is not helpful.

It's kind of important to point out these issues, regardless of how uncomfortable it may be for some.

607 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:26:27pm

re: #567 inspectorudy

What did the ONE do after he won the primary? He went conservative on almost every issue! Go back to his primary positions and compare where he ended up. Almost every issue became a conservative slant.

He said that John McCain was right 13 times in the first debate, too.

Obama won while pretending to be conservative.

All his far left stuff came out by being exposed via right wing blogs.

608 vegasjew  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:26:38pm

the democrats did a great job of splitting the media.
It doesnt matter that millions of people are listening to talk radio,and watching Sean Hannity ,preaching to the choir, the Yahoos and the google search engines are all skewed to the left. All of the new hip sites online all tilt left,this is where we need to compete.

609 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:26:39pm

re: #526 Dan G.

No, that's not what I said. It's what you inferred.

610 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:26:42pm

re: #568 faraway

But, Charles, they will never get away with it. Leftists won't allow it. Let them fight that fight. If it manages to creep into some pissant school district in South Georgia for a few months, don't worry, the ACLU will act much faster than we can. It's self correcting. That's why I think this crusade is not helpful.

Turning your back on a problem in the hope that 'someone else will take care of it' has a long history of failure.

That familiar refrain about 'They came to get xxx and I didn't speak up...' comes to mind.

611 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:26:53pm

re: #590 Charles

A question: do you believe in creationism?

Poll?

612 WestSea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:27:00pm

re: #503 Iron Fist

The Republicans were of course mean-spirited and intolerant, while the Democrats were tolerant and inclusive.

Yes, and the fact is liberals are far more intolerant. They are intolerant of a feminist who has children; works and is pro-life. Liberals can be hateful and intolerant. Yet, Conservatives are portrayed as hatermongers. Puzzling.

613 baxtrice  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:27:11pm

re: #591 Adina in Judea

Michelle Obama promised that The One would "FIX our souls," though.

No politician on the right has promised to "save souls" in so many words but the upcoming President is supposed to "FIX" them. How creepy is that?

Very creepy. Church and state should always be seperate.

614 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:27:24pm

re: #586 hman

Well excuse us. But as a scientist who works with many other scientists, I disagree with your point of view. It's misinformed and over the top whether you recognize it or not.

Why don't you give us a little details of what you so as a "scientist?"

615 dmjung  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:27:28pm

re: #458 baxtrice

I am a religious conservative, However. We need to remember that fiscal conservatism, limited government, civil liberties and personal responsibility is the way forward.

Religion should be kept in the private life, and not forced upon others.

The problem then becomes, if issues or mandates antithetical, if not hostile, to your religion are are forced upon you by the government, what do you do? In some ways I see religious people's entrance into politics as being a response to being pushed around rather than particularly wanting to require anyone to believe like they do. (Exceptions abound I'm sure, but not in any of the circles I mix in.)

616 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:28:24pm

re: #561 moonstone

That must be why some of my gay friends refuse to join the republicans since they think of the GOP as anti-gay.

617 jainphx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:28:25pm

re: #465 MPH

Can you explain to me the saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" Does anyone think Russia was of great character during WW11. Now I agree with you all, that those racist should not be condoned, or excepted, but if they fight on our side, well you get the point. I hate racist of any color or shape and Charles is right when he excludes them from any discussion.

618 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:28:44pm
619 J.S.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:28:59pm

re: #525 faraway

It's not that the vicious name calling is a surprise -- rather, it's that there's no "reciprocity" with respect to the other side...(In other words, Republicans don't have a bushel of ready-made, derogatory, reprehensible terms to smear Democrats with). Furthermore, if you wish to take the high road, you can't do what the MSM engages in...hence, "the problem". when the MSM takes you on (in this unfair fight), Republicans will have one hand tied behind their backs...(and which is something the MSM will of course take advantage of). I don't have a solution (and I don't advise acting in the immature, name-calling mode the Dems engage in, either).

620 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:29:01pm

re: #533 scratch


Point taken, but Romney had the strongest voice on the Economy and after the financial meltdown.

(nothing wrong with monday morning qb'ing)

621 albusteve  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:29:32pm

as luck would have it I just logged on and find the thread I've been waiting for for the five years I've read this blog...not that I can contribute anything but this issue needs to be addressed like way long ago...what are conservatives and how do we dodge extinction?...a well oiled and well funded donk party just knocked the shit out of us with a shadowy empty candidate...most distressing...we need to start from scratch...

I'm hustling upthread and look this over...I am very excited with what I did read...we have not flat lined yet

622 Dayenu  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:29:46pm

re: #595 bosforus

Yeah well, tell them you're not racist because you think Asians are okay.

Okay... let me explain what I mean by that statement.

Back at San Francisco State, I got to hear the wonderful canard from the Palestinian student groups.

"We're not anti-Semites. How could we be? We're semites ourselves, and we don't hate ourselves."

Just brilliant.

Chess genius and scumbag of the Earth, Bobby Fischer, said a similar line of argument.

"I'm not anti-Semitic. Arabs are semites, and I have no problems with Arabs."

So my old response is: "Does that mean if David Duke says he hates blacks, but Asians are okay with him, then he's not racist?"

To this day, no one answered me on that one...

623 BignJames  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:29:49pm

re: #614 Walter L. Newton

Why don't you give us a little details of what you so as a "scientist?"

Too late!

624 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:29:59pm

re: #605 Wookieelips

McPalin lost because for the last 8 years, the left, with lots of help from the media, has managed to paint all conservatives with the same "nazi" brush. Every time a conservative commentator or religious leader said something a little nutty, it was attributed to all conservatives.


If only outliers weren't deemed the norm and norms weren't marginalized.

625 gregg  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:30:16pm

re: #516 LSD

Snap!

I agree. This summer I was hoping McCain would pick Palin and I had no idea she was even a social conservative. I wanted her because of budget cutting and reform. To be honest, I think the frontier woman persona also appealed to me (not sure why, but probably because it meant she was from outside the beltway).

While it's good to talk about social conservatism and the future of the Republican party, I think the number one issue should be how does the Republican party reclaim the mantle of fiscal conservatism and small government. I have a couple of lifetime previously die-hard Republican friends that have disowned the party because of the reckless spending and large deficits.

626 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:30:21pm

Would all die-hard creationists please raise your hands, poke Charles, get banned, and let the rest of us carry on with this conversation without interruption?

627 MadJadBad  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:30:22pm

re: #464 bitterclinger_in_PA

Fundamentals of conservatism are based on the Bible's teaching. Reagan believed that too. We should not abandoned conservatism because a moderate republican loss the election.


True, but if you want to convince a non-religious voter to support your candidate or legislation, you'd better have some non-religious arguments to support your position.

628 jaunte  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:30:40pm

Dinging this post up because there should be a lot more discussion of this subject in future.
/Proudly clinging to my Goldwater '64 button.

629 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:30:41pm

re: #523 freetoken

No one said that, did they? Why are you putting words in peoples' mouths?

Sorry, but the gist of that article seems to be 'Social Conservatives should repudiate everything they believe in so some Rinos can get elected'. I'm very quiet about my faith...I make it a point not to push it down anyone else's throat, so I resent the implication that I somehow lost the election.

630 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:30:45pm

re: #388 Wookieelips

If they are what?

Crap. Sorry, I replied to wrong post. Just ignore that one. I was replying to someone saying that most social conservatives are Dems.

631 Atweber  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:30:45pm

PALIN 2012--LET THE CAMPAIGN BEGIN

632 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:30:46pm

re: #611 unrealizedviewpoint

Poll?

Is your real name actually Matt Damon?
:)

633 baxtrice  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:30:48pm

re: #615 dmjung

The problem then becomes, if issues or mandates antithetical, if not hostile, to your religion are are forced upon you by the government, what do you do? In some ways I see religious people's entrance into politics as being a response to being pushed around rather than particularly wanting to require anyone to believe like they do. (Exceptions abound I'm sure, but not in any of the circles I mix in.)

If we limit government, if we protect civil liberties, we don't have to worry about mandates or issues that are hostile to religion. I think you missed my original point. I want government out of my business. I don't want to interact with it unless I have to. That's what most Americans desire.

634 WestSea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:30:49pm

re: #611 unrealizedviewpoint

Poll?

Aren't they using the term Intelligent design? It's basically the same as Creationism, and no it should not be taught in a public school. I teach Science in a public school, and there is no science in intelligent design. Please.

635 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:30:53pm

I like to think of America as a nice car - a Cadillac. And I like to think of American-style liberalism as the gas peddle on that car. Without a gas peddle we wouldn't go any place. I also like to think of American-style conservatism as both the brake peddle and the steering wheel on the car. Without the brake and the steering wheel we would surely drive off the road and crash.

We need both, but it the conservative's job alone to make sure we don't drive off a cliff.

636 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:30:59pm

re: #541 markx

Yeah, McCain's attempt to score points against Obama during the bail out by not having 'the time to debate' has to be one of his Top 5 bad moves during the campaign.

If he voted against the package, it would have been ok.

As it turned out - it was easily #1.

637 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:31:27pm

re: #549 SixDegrees

I don't think that's what's being proposed here. What needs to happen, in my opinion, is for the Conservative movement to say in no uncertain terms that we are pledged to providing an environment where you - and everyone else - are free to pursue your own beliefs and hold your own values, in your home, in your church, in your private schools, and that we will never impose one religion's views through the power of government. We should also make it clear that attempts to use the Conservative movement to enact a religious agenda using government power are not welcome, and are explicitly at odds with Conservative values of limiting government intrusion and with the Constitution.

That is what the Conservative stands for. There is nothing in the Conservative principles that state ANY religion holds sway. The Conservative does believe in traditional values, that in itself does not require a belief in any particular God or faith.

638 twincitiesgirl  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:31:49pm

re: #564 arethusa

I think you're right on judicial activism - but Giuliani destroyed himself with the silly decision not to compete in the early primaries and wait for FL. The McCain ball was already rolling by then (and, no, I don't think it had much to do with ACORN).

I read that but didn't realize that's what cost him the nomination. How much influence does cross over voting have in the primaries?

639 Raven1  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:32:34pm

I have something to say regarding the presidential election. Oh Bummer! Since I am from Massachusetts let me say- Obuma!

640 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:32:38pm

re: #623 BignJames

Too late!

I guess. He was throwing "scientist" around the same way some people us PHD.

Hell, I know "scientist" that are Scientologists. I myself have been belonged to cults. I have seen many very smart people believe in the most outlandish things.

So, pissing around the title "scientist" does not prove anything to me.

641 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:32:39pm

re: #307 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I agree. Did you see my #107 ?

Went back to look.

Teenlet interrupted for a bit here with homework help questions.

It's more than just defining positions, the message has to get out there clearly and concisely, over and over again. As much as I supported GWB, he was not very good at communicating and whatever good he did have to say, he didn't do it often and loud enough.

642 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:32:43pm

re: #586 hman

But as a scientist who works with many other scientists, I disagree with your point of view.


Is your job doing science at a science place?

643 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:32:54pm

Let's also keep in mind that Obama had $600 million to spend on his campaign.

It would have been almost impossible for anyone to compete with that without their own $600 million to use in response.

How much of this $600 million was illegal? Probably hundreds of millions.

I respect nearly all of the people here, but blaming conservatism for this loss is pretty absurd when you look at what Obama had in his corner. Along with $600 million, he had almost the entire MSM promoting him for free 24x7.

It was almost a miracle that a Republican could stay in the election at all.

Republicans are supposed to be the big money party. Where was it?

The White House was bought with funds from overseas.

Let's not kill the conservative base over this.

Most of Obama's funding came from questionable internet contributions.

This has to be addressed.

644 Dianna  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:33:12pm

re: #461 honestjay

We gays have a lot of money to give to fiscal conservatives and a lot to offer to the Republican party if you will just accept us.

Then make your case to the social conservatives. So far, "gay rights" have been advanced through the courts, and no one with the sense the gods gave grasshoppers can miss where that ends.

Just because the judicial social activism acted in a group's favor one time does not mean that it will act in that group's favor another time.

645 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:33:12pm

re: #560 Sharmuta

It's the perception of the right as pushing creationism, and being against "gay rights". People see this as legislating morality and they reject it.

That is a perception that needs to change. Falwell went away awhile back.

646 Tamron  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:33:37pm

re: #310 sagamoregal

I strongly disagree that Sarah Palin has to be pushed to the side if the new Party decides to play down social conservatism to save its soul.

I and several of my Republican friends (male and female), who are moderate to liberal on social issues ADORED (heck, we WORSHIPPED) Sarah and finally could get excited about the Republican party again .

John McCain and his team were so ill prepared to handle someone of Sarah's character, fortitude and sheer happiness in her own skin. I think John thought all political women had to be cynical, unhappy hags like Hillary Clinton or Olympia Snow. If he and his inept team had stayed out of the Troopergate business and let her go back up to Juneau for a couple of days, she would have handled the whole matter like she had planned to before she was picked as his running mate. It would have not blown up like it did.

She has that "frontier spirit" that my Theodore (Roosevelt) loved so much. She also is the only politician of any stripe who has any hope of being a modern-day "trustbuster." Does anyone think she would have f--ked up the bailout mess like McCain did. I think she would have dressed down GWB and Paulson in public and told them that free market capitalism meant that Goldman Sachs had to take it up the arse. She's a driven, born leader who knows what she needs to do to come back on the national level and appeal to voters of different persuasions. She has a lot more "blood letting" to do up in the Alaska political swampland. It will only build up her street cred.

The next time she won't be burdened with the avuncular, old "let me reach across the aisle" uncertain leader. Whatever party she's a member of, I want to be a member of too.


Very well put. As an Alaskan who's been observing Sarah Palin's progress for the past few years, I agree with your thoughts on this.

The comments on this thread regarding Sarah's religious beliefs, or anything but her downright basic humanity, are very minor in comparison to the basic fact that this lady is honest and hard-working, and has a lot of integrity towards the ideals of a citizen who strongly believes in our Constitutional rights and privileges. I've met her and spoken with her, and she's the real deal.

One of the best objective viewpoints that I know of regarding Sarah Palin's broad appeal, comes from Lynn Forester de Rothschild, who has much of the same family background as Sarah Palin.

Check out this video:

[Link: themountainsage.wordpress.com...]

Looking at an overall view of Gov. Palin, she's no more complicated than a Jimmy Stewart or John Wayne sort of personality. Really.
.

647 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:33:43pm

re: #617 jainphx

Can you explain to me the saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" Does anyone think Russia was of great character during WW11. Now I agree with you all, that those racist should not be condoned, or excepted, but if they fight on our side, well you get the point. I hate racist of any color or shape and Charles is right when he excludes them from any discussion.

Not to be picky, but it is WWII, not WW Eleven.

648 BignJames  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:34:25pm

re: #642 Killgore Trout

Is your job doing science at a science place?


Mr. Science?

649 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:34:50pm

re: #647 CyanSnowHawk

Not to be picky, but it is WWII, not WW Eleven.

Is WW Eleven anything like a 7 Eleven?

650 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:34:52pm

re: #542 faraway

Attending church is bad? Not going to win elections with the atheist crowd.

You're dodging the fact that 'shanec99' tried to say Palin left the Pentecostal church as a child, and that's simply not true.

You're also dodging my question about whether you're a creationist yourself.

Almost always, the ones who moan and complain about my "obsession" with creationism turn out to be creationists themselves.

651 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:34:56pm

re: #580 Dayenu

Newsprint is a dieing industry.

652 debutaunt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:35:17pm

re: #220 Kenneth

I don't know if anybody has ever successfully explained California.

New York confuses me. They are attacked three times and can't figure out who the enemy is.

653 Steve Rogers  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:35:29pm

re: #568 faraway

But, Charles, they will never get away with it. Leftists won't allow it. Let them fight that fight. If it manages to creep into some pissant school district in South Georgia for a few months, don't worry, the ACLU will act much faster than we can. It's self correcting. That's why I think this crusade is not helpful.


But when that hypothetical South Georgia school district starts to teach "creationsim" even for a few months, the Democrats and the media (but I repeat myself) will spin it to show that all conservatives are snake-handling flat-earthers. Those few months it is in school books harm conservatives more than you could know, and it will pay negative dividends on election day.

Once the Republican party gets rid of that albatross around its collective neck, elections will be easier for them to win.

654 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:35:53pm
655 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:35:59pm

re: #585 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It seems like some people take not supporting Politicians with a Social Conservative agenda as a attack on all Christians. Bullshit, complete and utter Bullshit. It shows the same logic as calling someone racist because they didn't support Obama.

I think it is more the wording used by some commenters that religion is the evil. just some. That is the impression being given, true or not.

656 toddrundgren  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:36:04pm

Libertarianism without the Ron Paulite conspiracy kookism and foriegn policy isolationism is the best direction for Republicanism.

657 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:36:07pm

re: #646 Tamron

... to the basic fact that this lady is honest and hard-working, and has a lot of integrity towards the ideals of a citizen who strongly believes in our Constitutional rights and privileges. I've met her and spoken with her, and she's the real deal...

And you are probably right. But I will say it again. She was not picked because of the points you mention above. She fit the political marketing they wanted, which was...

The persona of 1) A babe, 2) mom, 3) family values, 4) gun owner, 5) outdoorsy and 6) fertile.

Her leadership abilities may have been a plus, but it was the "homespun" gal persona that they were marketing.

658 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:36:07pm

re: #635 Ringo the Gringo

I like to think of America as a nice car - a Cadillac. And I like to think of American-style liberalism as the gas peddle on that car. Without a gas peddle we wouldn't go any place. I also like to think of American-style conservatism as both the brake peddle and the steering wheel on the car. Without the brake and the steering wheel we would surely drive off the road and crash.
GMTA! I said the same ...But a trian and 6% grade!

We need both, but it the conservative's job alone to make sure we don't drive off a cliff.

659 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:36:18pm

re: #638 twincitiesgirl

I read that but didn't realize that's what cost him the nomination. How much influence does cross over voting have in the primaries?

Well, only 22 states register by party, and usually you have to go through a big process to change your party. The other 28 let you pick your party on primary day. I don't know how they would count crossover voters. I do recall that in a lot of primaries when both parties had their primaries the same day, Obama and McCain usually split the independent vote.

660 Learned Mother of Zion  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:36:19pm

re: #390 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Then she informed me that the right Koran from Youssef Something or another peace unto him and some such claptrap, a version I have never heard of, had the correct information and my freebee from CAIR is somehow inaccurate! And she blathered some stuff about Mohamed and she wished peace unto him.

Rita's getting takeout for the mothership?

661 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:36:23pm

re: #620 DeafDog

Point taken, but Romney had the strongest voice on the Economy and after the financial meltdown.

(nothing wrong with monday morning qb'ing)

I don't think the economy was as important as others here say. In retrospect, maybe the best running mate would have been a black person, who actually lived through discrimination and poverty instead of merely vacationing in that of other people, and who was a longstanding member of a traditional black church that DIDN'T resort to vicious racial invective. Someone who had worked hard to help black people, without working with Bill Ayers and ACORN. Such a person could have gotten right in Obama's face and exposed him for the utter fraud that he is.

The only glimpse of hope I saw for the GOP in this election was at the convention, when Sarah Palin et al. were openly mocking Obama's ridiculous credentials. He's absolutely hollow. Someone needed to pop him like a balloon, and it probably would have taken a black person who was NOT a total scumbag to do that effectively.

662 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:36:24pm

re: #649 Honorary Yooper

Is WW Eleven anything like a 7 Eleven?

I'm OK with that as long as their 44oz refills are under a dollar.

663 scratch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:36:28pm

re: #620 DeafDog

Point taken, but Romney had the strongest voice on the Economy and after the financial meltdown.

(nothing wrong with monday morning qb'ing)

I agree that there is nothing wrong with analysis after the fact, but what is bothering me is the pronouncements that McCain "would have won" if only he had done such-and-such. There was so much irrational behavior in this election that I don't think anyone can claim to draw rational conclusions about what would have happened if something had been done differently.

664 Dave the.....  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:36:32pm

Charles, I have a lot of respect for you, but you are from the west coast. There are millions of Americans between Calif and the NE who do not pay attention much to politically issues. They get their news from MSM. But vote Republican over what they call "family values".

The Republican party can accommodate them, along with financial conservatives and strong foreign policy types.

Kick out the social conservatives and you have a minority party indefinitely.

665 capitalist piglet  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:36:48pm

re: #274 unrealizedviewpoint

Thank SF Mayor (super lib) Gavin Newsom, his money quote used over in commercial spots - "Whether You Like It Or Not" His perceived push it down your throat, like it or not, and the folks pushed back.

Wow. That's a pretty powerful ad.

666 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:36:51pm

This is about civics. Religion is for church, not political parties.

667 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:37:27pm

re: #664 Dave the...

Charles, I have a lot of respect for you, but you are from the west coast.

No, I'm not.

668 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:37:41pm

re: #48 Lizard by the Bay

If the Republican Party does a hard-right to Jesusland, with a platform of teaching evolution, locking up girls who have abortions, bringing back censorship "decency boards", etc. then you will soon find them in the History books along with the chapter on Whigs.

Davy Crockett was a Whig.

When he lost his bid for re-election, he is said to have told the assembled crowd of constituents, "You can all go to Hell, I'm going to Texas".

We know how well that turned out.

669 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:37:53pm

re: #643 Adina in Judea

Good point. Hundreds of millions of dollars in illegal foreign contributions, and hundreds of thousands of bogus votes. I'm not saying that the result of the election should be challenged, or that Obama wouldn't have won without them. But is anyone going to do anything to make sure this doesn't happen again next time?

670 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:38:00pm

re: #631 Atweber

PALIN 2012--LET THE CAMPAIGN BEGIN

Let's not. Can I please have 3 or at least 2.5 years without a Presidential Campaign in the news?

671 OldLineTexan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:38:18pm

re: #668 Son of the Black Dog

Davy Crockett was a Whig.

When he lost his bid for re-election, he is said to have told the assembled crowd of constituents, "You can all go to Hell, I'm going to Texas".

We know how well that turned out.

Pretty well, looking back on it from my perspective.

672 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:38:30pm

re: #490 Sorge

I'm not dismissing morals. I said you can't legislate morality. If you don't believe me, read up on the prohibition era.

673 Dan G.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:38:35pm

Well, there are the mid-term elections. Why doesn't the GOP double down on the soc-con agenda and we'll see how terribly they have their asses handed to them (and at the same time ensure an unstoppable democratic majority). Or... we can try a retrospective approach to what was said/advertised versus what was delivered and see that the current GOP leadership hosed those who supported them; you know, an evidence-based approach...

674 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:38:54pm

re: #666 Sharmuta

This is about civics. Religion is for church, not political parties.

I can agree with that.

675 RubyTuesday  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:38:55pm

re: #577 Walter L. Newton
Dear Charles Emerson Winchester,
I didn't say One Nation Under GOD was written by the founding fathers. This nation was created by those who escaped religious tyranny and wanted freedom to choose. So, I'd say religion, pro or anti, was a major consideration in the creation of the early documents.
Neither did I say that only Christians were moral, as you hint. But, as I stated, almost all the founding fathers were of the Christian faith. From that springboard came the Constitution. Tolerance is reserved only for those who think like you, I guess.

676 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:38:56pm

re: #649 Honorary Yooper

Is WW Eleven anything like a 7 Eleven?

They've got better Sauerkraut and Bratwurst.

677 OldLineTexan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:39:02pm

re: #670 CyanSnowHawk

Let's not. Can I please have 3 or at least 2.5 years without a Presidential Campaign in the news?

A billion updings for you, but not one post for tribute.

678 tedzilla99  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:39:22pm

I didn't read all the comments, but this election was not a referendum on any sort of conservatism. It was a referendum on moderate republicanism vs leftism. The people who want conservatism voted for Palin, not McCain. Those in the middle who bought into the demonization of Wall St and 'greedy' corporations voted Obama. If there had been a true conservative opponent teamed up with Palin, the outcome would be the opposite.

The danger here is to lump conservatives with the GOP. The GOP at the top and especially in DC, is not conservative. There is absolutely no way that a marxist could beat a true conservative - the differences are so stark to not be missed. And a true conservative would not have shied away from hammering Obama on his marxist beliefs and allies, as McCain did. Sure, he and Palin hammered away on Ayers, but that didn't happen till October. And as much was made about 'undecided', I find that to be a misnomer and an exaggeration. People claim undecided just as they claim independence; to make themselves the focus of polling...so nobody was swayed in October one way or the other, I don't believe.

McCain lost because he is not much different than Obama on big government solutions - the bailout disaster - and those who couldn't see a difference went the popular, historic route, as was posited by zombie in that great essay. This election was nothing more than a triumph of style over no style, and grandiose rhetoric over middle-of-the-road pseudo conservatism, with a fawning media in total lockstep on the left. You have misinterpreted the results, Charles - with all due respect! :)

679 capitalist piglet  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:39:24pm

re: #643 Adina in Judea

Let's also keep in mind that Obama had $600 million to spend on his campaign.

It would have been almost impossible for anyone to compete with that without their own $600 million to use in response.

How much of this $600 million was illegal? Probably hundreds of millions.

I respect nearly all of the people here, but blaming conservatism for this loss is pretty absurd when you look at what Obama had in his corner. Along with $600 million, he had almost the entire MSM promoting him for free 24x7.

It was almost a miracle that a Republican could stay in the election at all.

Republicans are supposed to be the big money party. Where was it?

The White House was bought with funds from overseas.

Let's not kill the conservative base over this.

Most of Obama's funding came from questionable internet contributions.

This has to be addressed.

That's one of the tragedies of this election. It won't be addressed, and neither will voter registration fraud. If anything, the Democrats are emboldened.

680 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:39:46pm

Just stay away from my video games! I am sick of politicians jumping on the 'video game' regulation bandwagon...

So..Romney...you jump again in 2012 and bring up any 'video game' talk again, you'll lose my vote.

/that one issue is actually toward the top of my list of petty grievances.

681 tripletdad  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:39:48pm

Why hit the (R) self-destruct button - can we put it all back together again so we can beat those (D) bastards in 4 years?

682 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:40:09pm
683 OldLineTexan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:40:12pm

re: #679 capitalist piglet

Too true, ACORN and similar fraud investigations will likely wither and die.

684 cliffster  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:40:16pm

re: #668 Son of the Black Dog

Davy Crockett was a Whig.

When he lost his bid for re-election, he is said to have told the assembled crowd of constituents, "You can all go to Hell, I'm going to Texas".

We know how well that turned out.

Davy... Davy Crocket
King of the wild frontiers!

Don't be sayin' nothin' bad about Davy Crokett, now.

685 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:40:41pm

re: #651 DeafDog

Newsprint is a dieing industry.

News ink is a dyeing industry.

686 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:40:44pm

re: #521 moderndayprayer

How exactly is religion being forced into anyone's life now? That's such utter horseshit! I never have to engage any deity or house of worship because... guess what? I don't want to. People make it sound like we're living under the Inquisition!

People perceive attempts to outlaw abortion, promote teaching of creationism in public schools, legislate on all manner of moral issues such as gay marriage and insurance coverage as attempts to impose religious doctrine through the power of government. This sort of activity is at odds with fundamental American principles, and is explicitly constrained by the Constitution.

687 twincitiesgirl  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:40:46pm

re: #645 Outrider

That is a perception that needs to change. Falwell went away awhile back.

Not only that, but the perception of many is that the extreme left pushes their agenda so I think in many cases (on the right) it's just a matter of pushing back.

688 shiplord kirel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:40:48pm

We have to re-frame the debate by returning conservatism to its roots.

Unfortunately, many seem not to have the vaguest idea what those roots are. They do not lie in a return to a mythical "simpler times" or the adoption of a restrictive value system. Anyone who knows, or who is both old enough and clear-headed to truly remember what it was like in the past would not want that.
The real roots of modern conservatism lie in the work of William F. Buckley and Barry Goldwater during the 1950s and 60s.
Buckley summarized this philosophy as "the recognition of reality." As such, it would stand in stark contrast to the dangerously emotional, superficial and fantasy-laden world-view of media-culture liberalism.
The so-called religious right, created by media-based evangelists in the 1970s, is not part of this reality-based philosophy. Reality and age-old principles of fairness and liberty require that these beliefs be respected, but their role as a central tenet of conservatism philosophy is a disaster and a contradiction.

689 piglet-u93  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:40:58pm

re: #652 debutaunt

New York confuses me. They are attacked three times and can't figure out who the enemy is.

Very few have reached the inevitable conclusion that Islam is the problem.

690 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:41:16pm

re: #680 Oh no...Sand People!

GTA IV is out on PC soon. I can't wait.

691 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:41:29pm

re: #665 capitalist piglet

Wow. That's a pretty powerful ad.

Yep. That ad played, and played, and played. Some 60 million bucks was spent for & against this Prop 8.

692 Womball  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:41:51pm

Where was the conservative media? How come conservatives aren't trying to counteract liberal teachers? I think conservatism needs to be explained clearly, and how its not racist.

693 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:41:52pm

re: #674 LSD

Cool. Now if only we could get 99% of other Americans to agree with me.

694 arethusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:42:00pm

Here is apparently Palin's first encounter with the press after last night.

She says two things of note:
-she "can't imagine" running for national office in 2012
-she is sorry "if I cost John McCain even one vote...he is the American hero."

695 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:42:01pm

re: #657 Walter L. Newton

I understand 1 thru 5 but where the hell did "fertile" come from?
There must be a phyco babble explanation for that?
" A Babe" covered that!

696 Dan G.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:42:02pm

re: #661 Last Mohican

[...] maybe the best running mate would have been a black person,[...]

Are you insane? You think that McCain lost due to pragmatic choices like that and not because of his ideas/performance (anti-free speech, wanted a public service draft following 9/11)?

697 opnion  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:42:09pm

re: #629 Fenway_Nation

Sorry, but the gist of that article seems to be 'Social Conservatives should repudiate everything they believe in so some Rinos can get elected'. I'm very quiet about my faith...I make it a point not to push it down anyone else's throat, so I resent the implication that I somehow lost the election.


see what you are saying. Conservative values can be and are held by people of faith, agnostics & atheists.It is a consensus on values.
As an example, anyone with any claim on Conservative values should be sickened by Obama's refusal to support medical aid to a baby born of a botched abortion.
I don't think that Republicans should be rigid, but I don't think that they should become de facto Democrats.

698 LSD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:42:14pm

re: #689 piglet-u93

Very few have reached the inevitable conclusion that Islam is the problem.

Spain got a surprise by voting in a Socialist ...

699 Wookieelips  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:42:20pm

re: #622 Dayenu

Yeah well, tell them you're not racist because you think Asians are okay.

Okay... let me explain what I mean by that statement.

Back at San Francisco State, I got to hear the wonderful canard from the Palestinian student groups.

"We're not anti-Semites. How could we be? We're semites ourselves, and we don't hate ourselves."

Just brilliant.

Chess genius and scumbag of the Earth, Bobby Fischer, said a similar line of argument.

"I'm not anti-Semitic. Arabs are semites, and I have no problems with Arabs."

Whenever I hear that one I just say "Oh, so you're just a Jew-hater then, huh?"

I've heard that crap so much I never use the term "anti-semite" anymore. "Jew-hater" is much more accurate.

700 SaneInMN  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:42:21pm

Sara Palin took on and BEAT a corrupt Republican political establishment in her home state. Give her another term as an executive, let her develop clear and concise positions on a variety of domestic and foreign policy issues, and let her present these issues at forums such as CPAC. She could be a force in the Republican party for years to come, if she wants it.

701 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:42:22pm

re: #646 Tamron

Very well put. As an Alaskan who's been observing Sarah Palin's progress for the past few years, I agree with your thoughts on this.

The comments on this thread regarding Sarah's religious beliefs, or anything but her downright basic humanity, are very minor in comparison to the basic fact that this lady is honest and hard-working, and has a lot of integrity towards the ideals of a citizen who strongly believes in our Constitutional rights and privileges. I've met her and spoken with her, and she's the real deal.

One of the best objective viewpoints that I know of regarding Sarah Palin's broad appeal, comes from Lynn Forester de Rothschild, who has much of the same family background as Sarah Palin.

Sarah Palin puts a lie to the notion that extremely religious Christians (or Jews) are freaks who should be hidden or discarded if Republicans want to win.

California passed Proposition 8 against gay marriage.

Think of it! Vastly, vastly liberal California voted against gay marriage.

This was one of the supposedly "aggressively anti-gay rights" propositions and the people of California passed it.

California voted "YES" on social conservatism for this issue.

Social conservatism won in this particular way yesterday.

Amazing, eh?

702 saberry0530  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:42:26pm

re: #690 Killgore Trout

GTA IV is out on PC soon. I can't wait.

Personally, I've already pre-ordered COD: The World at War.

703 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:42:35pm
704 formercorpsman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:42:37pm

In my younger days, I was liberal. Did not have a grasp of the issues with any knowledge or developed opinion.

Not pro-choice, but not pro-life. I had a life changing experience. I was forced to evaluate what I thought about things, issues, the world.

I had to grow up. I went from deciding emotionally, to rationalizing information. I am somewhat socially conservative, but tolerant. Some consider it a dichotomy, but I do not.

One of the things I have thought probably most about is the abortion issue. I arrived at my opinion. I can accommodate abortion with the scenario of the mother's life being at stake, and things in that realm, but our country is riding an interesting fence as far as I can see.

First, if we are going be totally honest, and up front about this issue, then we need to admit that the disproportionate number of abortions performed since 1973 have been for birth control purposes.

To a much lesser extent, they then fit into the column of the reasons provided by proponents as to why unfettered access, and federal funding is required.

Over the last couple of years, and interesting trend has taken place. We have seen scum like Scott Peterson, and Bobby Cutts Jr. tried in our courts, and actually convicted for the deaths of an unborn entity.

Again, if I am going to take an intelligent approach to how I view this, then I must ask myself, if the demise of this unborn entity happened to be at the very moment, a different set of circumstances, being the mother acquiring a late term abortion, the result is the same. Whether or not this entity is confirmed by a crime scene unit, or a pathologist, it was the same entity nonetheless.

This is an absolute inequality, as it relates to equal protection under the law, as far as our Constitution is concerned. Before anyone makes any comments about me excusing Peterson, or Cutts Jr., I am not. Not in the least. They are animals, and really are not fit for human habitat.

This is the way I see it.

705 Learned Mother of Zion  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:42:59pm

re: #501 lennysquiggy

Western society has a vested interested in promoting the institution of marriage in order to maintain family stability which is the core unit of civilization. Unfortunately, government has been actively engaged in undermining the nuclear and extended family for at least 2 generations now, extending the definition of marriage to non-procreating couples is just another step in the same direction.

Before somebody shouts, "well, we allow infertile heterosexual couples to marry!" bear in mind that a society starts to disintegrate when 20% of the population is infertile (voluntary or otherwise).

706 lennysquiggy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:01pm

#582 SixDegrees:

Thanks. I still think I/we are missing something though. I mean, if we're about small government and freedom, why not do both? I'm sick of being told I hate gays just because I don't approve of gay marriage rights. I don't approve of ANY marriage rights. We should take a stand against promoting or discouraging any behavior through tax credits and healthcare. That's a Liberal thing to do.

And I'm pro-gun, pro-life and I identify more with the Christian conservatives than any other segment of the population. I don't see why the "far right" wouldn't approve of this type of platform.

707 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:04pm

Free Republic readers are really hatin' on me for this post:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

That's fine. After the disgusting barrage of hatred they excreted after Obama's grandmother died, they can bite me.

708 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:09pm

re: #333 unreconstructed rebel

Problem is, this is not an issue with the Dems. But, because the Reps keep making it one, then they are constrained to live by their own rules.


The Dems make it an issue too. For Reps only, though. Because they are a party without values, so therefore nobody can accuse them of hypocrisy, which apparently, is just as meaningless for a Democrat as the act of theft, for instance, by 'Cold Cash Jefferson', which is a violation of law.

709 tedzilla99  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:11pm

re: #657 Walter L. Newton

And you are probably right. But I will say it again. She was not picked because of the points you mention above. She fit the political marketing they wanted, which was...

The persona of 1) A babe, 2) mom, 3) family values, 4) gun owner, 5) outdoorsy and 6) fertile.

Her leadership abilities may have been a plus, but it was the "homespun" gal persona that they were marketing.

You are stating opinion as fact. You shouldn't do that, you look stupid when you're wrong.

710 cliffster  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:27pm

Small government
Low taxes
Strong army

Simple.

711 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:27pm

re: #650 Charles

Maybe you should just have a disclaimer at the top of LGF that states something to the affect of "This Is A Non-Creationist Blog. If you believe in Creationism, FINE, but don't peddle it here, as I'm not buying it."

I have my disagreements with LGF over this issue (and many others) but I don't have to snipe at y'all all the time about them. I just might agree with this shmuck but even I'm tired of the back and forth.

712 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:29pm

re: #675 RubyTuesday

Dear Charles Emerson Winchester,
I didn't say One Nation Under GOD was written by the founding fathers. This nation was created by those who escaped religious tyranny and wanted freedom to choose. So, I'd say religion, pro or anti, was a major consideration in the creation of the early documents.
Neither did I say that only Christians were moral, as you hint. But, as I stated, almost all the founding fathers were of the Christian faith. From that springboard came the Constitution. Tolerance is reserved only for those who think like you, I guess.

No they weren't, most of them were Deist. Have you ever seen a copy of Jefferson Bible?

"Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative."

He took out ALL THE MIRACLES, all the SUPERNATURAL and kept the morality. That's what this nation is founded on.

This is common history, I don't know why you have to lie and try to make up your own version of what is known fact.

713 redvoter  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:32pm

This is still a socially conservative and center Right nation. david Frum is wrong when he goes after Social Conservatives, the base of the Republican party. Should they tone it down on abortion, sure, but the party should not sacrifice their beliefs and must stand strong on their value for the "culture of life". It is the RINO's and liberal Republicans who are losing, because they are seen as weak and shifty.

To succeed the Republicans need a coalition of social conservatives, libertarian conservatives and foreign policy hawks. similar to what Reagan had in his time. Bobby Jindal would be an excellent candidate. His social conservatism would help him. He may be very religous, but he does not have to preach on the campaign trail. His religion will not hurt him. He is anti gay marriage, as is most of America including Florida and California. He is pro capital punishment, as is most of america. He believes God created the Earth, as do most americans, but does not want to stip out schools of Evolutionary theory, as do most americans. He is hardly out of the mainstream and would be one hell of a candidate.

Moderate Republicans had their candidate in John McCain and he lost to a left wing liberal who is far out of the mainstream. An energetic and true believing conservative who will stand strong on conservative principles and fight for school vouchers and school choice in education reform, for tax reforms such as a flat tax or fair tax, for offshore drilling, for "under god" in the pledge, for capital punishment, for second amendment rights, against union card checks, against cuts in missile defense, against international criminal courts which threaten our national sovereignty and against liberal judicial activism.

wedge issues such as abortion and gay rights have their place as well. Pennsylvania for instance likes pro life candidates and gay marriage goes done in every referendum in every state i can think of.

As long as the Republicans get back to basics and focus on fiscal discipline, shrinking our government and keeping our nation secure then we will come back in a big way. The social issues are still on the side of the conservatives, they just take a back seat when it comes to an economic crisis.

714 Basho  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:39pm

re: #680 Oh no...Sand People!

Just stay away from my video games! I am sick of politicians jumping on the 'video game' regulation bandwagon...

So..Romney...you jump again in 2012 and bring up any 'video game' talk again, you'll lose my vote.

/that one issue is actually toward the top of my list of petty grievances.

But, but, but... Jack Thompson was right!

715 Learned Mother of Zion  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:45pm

re: #668 Son of the Black Dog

Davy Crockett was a Whig.

When he lost his bid for re-election, he is said to have told the assembled crowd of constituents, "You can all go to Hell, I'm going to Texas".

We know how well that turned out.

Phil Sheridan said, "If I owned Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas."

716 bnichols10  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:47pm

re: #664 Dave the...

I disagree. The social conservatives don't have to be kicked out, but I think the time has to come when they stop trying to force their views on the general population. There are a lot of things I personally don't agree with, but I would never want to see laws prohibiting them. Let people make their own choices on "social issues", for better or worse. I have never understood why people who feel so strongly that limited government is the way to go suddenly feel the need to bring down the hammer on groups with different beliefs or values.

717 Dianna  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:48pm

re: #540 RubyTuesday

So...first under the bus are the Christians? OK. So if the founding fathers were alive today, that would be all or most of them too. One Nation Under GOD means nothing anymore. If this message becomes popular, Christians will stay at home, ensuring bigger wins for liberals in the future. The umbrella of conservatism just got caught in the winds of change and has been carried away.

Do you honestly want "christianity" defined by the government? Because that is - at its worst - where that kind of activism ends up.

718 baxtrice  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:51pm

There is one thing I know, we need to take hold of the message and spread the word. We must start explaining our message to everyone to all who will hear. Fred Thompson is a good example of this. He knew exactly how to explain our ideals, John McCain, not a clue.

We must become teachers in a valley of dimwits. We must Teach!

719 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:57pm

re: #665 capitalist piglet

Wow. That's a pretty powerful ad.

First time I've seen twosome-Newsome and he's as slimy as I could have imagined.

720 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:43:58pm
721 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:44:18pm

re: #661 Last Mohican

Economy was issue #1 and the exit polls bear that out.

Being a white male, I probably don't understand all of this race and gender identity politics...I definitely don't approve of it.

I liked Palin, but she screwed-up the Couric interview and never fully recovered.

722 vegasjew  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:44:37pm

rounding the numbers 120 million voted
64million to 56 million on Drudge right now
AA's voted 16.9 million
the vote was roughly 16 mill to 1 mill
that is a 15 million vote deficit
that means you have to win the rest 60 mill to 45mill
a very daunting task.
Hillary was able to do it in the later primaries
but she was an alternative D and received maybe 40 % favorable media. McCAin is an R and got no favorable support . This problem is not going away anytime soon.

723 onepistoffyid  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:44:37pm

re: #123 Charles

I think Palin was a cynical pick by McCain, to get the fundamentalist Christians aboard his campaign. And it worked.

I believe there were more than a few moderate centrists who might have voted for McCain, but were turned off by Palin's Pentecostalism. Hell, I don't just believe this -- I saw this happen at LGF. More than a few readers who were pre-disposed to vote for McCain had their minds changed when Sarah Palin became the veep nominee.

I backed Palin up, because as far as I know she never really pushed the social con agenda. But it's pretty hard to deny that's why she was brought onboard.

Charles you are absolutely correct, and I was one of the Lizards that was soundly thrashed when I posted that I thought PAlin would lose the election for McCain. I was called a moby and a troll.

Palin was a stupid, boneheaded choice and the Lizards that bashed me on this earlier can now eat crow. The Republicans will be out office permanently if they keep floating the likes of her for office.

724 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:44:50pm

re: #690 Killgore Trout

GTA IV is out on PC soon. I can't wait.

Just played Dead Space...I was stunned... Didn't know Electronic Arts had it in them...

725 Dan G.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:45:12pm

re: #688 shiplord kirel

SPOT ON.

726 Mad Scientist  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:45:26pm

Where does the shift to the left for social values leave an important leg of the 3 legged coalition of the GOP? The GOP has traditionally been strong when it emphasized the defense of country or military strength, economic strength, and social/family values. Take one leg away and the platform falls over. Are the Conservative Christians being told we are not welcome in the GOP tent any more? Should we join the Constitutional Party?

727 WestSea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:45:39pm

re: #682 ploome hineni

JOhn Kerry or Bill RIchardson for Secretary of State

GAG ME

Do you think he'll select Hillary for anything?

728 NeedleStack  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:46:02pm

To those several saying that Ronald Reagan was a social conservative and he won, remember that was more than twenty years ago. The nation has changed, like it or not. The ever changing world is a struggle for anyone holding on too strongly the literal meaning of "conservative".

Social conservatism has eventually lost pretty much every battle since this nation began. It takes time, but it seems to always happen. I don't think that trend will change.

Fiscal conservatism on the other hand, has a pretty strong case, and could get people excited. That is something I wish America could understand better.

Unfortunately, true fiscal conservatism requires some degree of reigning in military spending (not just social programs), and you're not going to get that view past much of the right.

I guess we'll see what develops.

729 lennysquiggy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:46:03pm

#705:

Marriage may be vital and it should be promoted and it SHOULD be between a man and a woman, but why is it the government's job to promote it? Shouldn't that be the role of the church?

"...society starts to disintegrate when 20% of the population is infertile (voluntary or otherwise)."

It also disintegrates when the government tries to promote or discourage behavior. The only thing that is happening at the moment is that it is discouraging our base and encouraging the far left in their efforts to demonize us.

730 HoosierHoops  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:46:13pm

re: #667 Charles

No, I'm not.

Come on charles..you are not allowing people to pigeonhole you by where you live.. that seems so unfair..
/

731 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:46:14pm

re: #713 redvoter

This is still a socially conservative and center Right nation.

I agree. The problem is that the soc-cons are more right of that.

Bobby Jindal would be an excellent candidate. His social conservatism would help him. He may be very religous, but he does not have to preach on the campaign trail. His religion will not hurt him.

You could not be more wrong.

732 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:46:22pm

Charles,

California's Proposition 8 against gay marriage passed yesterday.

One of the most liberal states in the country passed a proposition that embodies social conservatism.

Social conservatism did win in this yesterday.

They didn't have $600 million opposing this issue, of course.

733 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:46:44pm
734 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:46:45pm
735 cliffster  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:46:51pm

re: #707 Charles

Free Republic readers are really hatin' on me for this post:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

That's fine. After the disgusting barrage of hatred they excreted after Obama's grandmother died, they can bite me.

Christian principals that founded this nation..

Sure, of course. The founders were Christians, and most of strong faith at that. So Christian beliefs colored the creation of our nation. That doesn't make it a Christian nation.

736 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:46:59pm

Laws, by definition, force values upon people. Whether these values come from religious people or the GLBT movement I see no difference.

737 freetoken  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:47:00pm

re: #557 southernfriedchickenhawk

So you think this loss was due to social stances by the traditional GOP?

No... at least, I for one didn't say that.

However, the loss was due in part to the inability of the GOP to transcend petty arguments over those so-called "traditional" social stances.

More specifically, taking stances on issues is fine and expected. But ignoring the issues that the majority of the electorate wants addressed, while spending time and effort and capital debating some religious doctrine, is the path to irrelevance.

That is the key. So many of the self proclaimed "true conservatives" here want to argue right and wrong (they are right of course, the others are wrong.) What these posters miss is that a majority don't care whether the "true conservatives" are right or wrong in their pet beliefs. The majority of the electorate obviously are interested in other matters.

Right now the GOP offers no vision of the future of the US. None. What the GOP has become is the party of reactionaries. There is no overarching philosophy and integrated set of policies, but rather a hodgepodge of broken planks.

Look at it this way:
McCain won the anti-Obama vote;
McCain won the anti-Rev.-Wright vote;
McCain won the Hussein-is-a-muslim vote;
McCain won the Obama-is-a-marxist-materialist vote;
McCain won the Obama-not-a-citizen vote;
McCain won the Obama-is-a-commie-pinko vote;
McCain won the Obama-is-a-baby-killer vote;
McCain won the Obama-is-just-a-Soros-stooge vote;
McCain won the Obama-is-the-antichrist vote;

and so forth.

IT WAS NOT ENOUGH.

The GOP will have to reach out with, dare I say it, a positive message to people who worry about such trivial things as:
Will I lose my job to overseas competition?
Will my pension plan be enough for retirement?
etc.

738 medaura18586  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:47:00pm

re: #618 buzzsawmonkey

No, you have to be quite a jackass to be "pro-abortion."

Being pro-abortion is not the same as accepting the need for its availability in certain circumstances. Even many people who regard abortion as unutterably evil will grudgingly recognize it is, on certain occasions, a necessary evil.

The argument between most people who are "anti-abortion" and those who are "pro-abortion" is, for the most part, twofold:

a) what are the circumstances under which this evil shall nonetheless be permitted, and

b) shall these circumstances be determined as a state matter or imposed by the judiciary as a "right?"

Touché, buzzsaw.

I fell prey to the rhetorical subversion of the commenter I responded to. S/he said the only morality she wanted to legislate was the the anti-abortion agenda, presumably as no big deal. Of course s/he didn't mean anti-abortion, but anti-choice. Likewise, I meant to reply that one needs to be quite a religious fundamentalist in order to be anti-choice.

What kind of choice am I talking about? Ought there to be restrictions on said choice? Of course.

The necessity of abortion as an evil may be recognized at different phases of perceived necessity to terminate a pregnancy, the main ones listed above in descending order of gravity:

a) When there is a risk to the mother's health

b) When the fetus is deformed or carries a terminal illness, resulting in an infant who would suffer and die young with little or no hope of recovery

c) When the pregnancy was a result of incest or rape.

There are those who don't even consider it an evil, but rather a prerogative, and consider the mother's whim to rule over the life of her fetus at all times during the pregnancy. These are the folks sympathetic of late-term and/or partial birth abortion.

I personally fall right in between.

I don't think there is anything religiously sacred about a zygote or an embryo, but that the closer said embryo becomes to a human being, the more definitive and enforceable its rights should be as an approximate human being.

There is a gray area I am not comfortable with, to be certain, but my test for common sense on abortion is the following:

Should pregnant women be allowed to terminate their pregnancy within the first month at their discretion for any reason whatsoever? The answer should be an unequivocal yes. Anything short of it, will put the responder in the religious fundamentalist camp as far as I am concerned.

Women can find out that they are pregnant within 15 days, and technology allows for very early term abortions to be performed. If someone cannot see it fit to allow a girl/woman to execute this decision solely between herself and her conscience at a time when the embryo is tiny and developmentally equivalent to a frog's egg, we have a problem.

And as a woman, despite my flaming fiscal conservatism, I would rather elect government officials who would take my hard earned money than those who would want to deny me such minimal freedom in my uterus.

739 jainphx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:47:01pm

re: #540 RubyTuesday

Remember how THE BOOK tells us that believers will be treated in the end times? It seems not too far off now!

740 ukase  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:47:48pm

re: #64 CyanSnowHawk

Look farther back than Reagan. How was Nixon on the social side? What about Eisenhower?
How are the socially moderate doing in the House? the Senate?

Your question strikes the heart of the confusion on this board about how the GOP is "moving to the right" etc etc. So, herewith a few facts:

1. When Nixon was elected, abortion was illegal except in a couple of states (e.g., California, New York). My public high school in Detroit's inner city had a bible club, and the graduation began with a prayer.
2. When Eisenhower was president, prayer was legal in public schools, and the APA Diagnostic Manual defined homosexuality as a mental disorder.

In short, social issues were decided locally; if a state wanted school prayer, they had it; if a state supported abortion rights, they passed local laws. There was no such creature as a "social conservative" because that was the mainstream at the time.

Because social liberals found themselves generally in the minority, they adopted a strategy of using the court system. Now, 50 years later, every single social issue has been dictated by the courts, not adopted through democratic elections.

Now, some more facts regarding moderate vs conservative election results:

3. Chris Shays and the remaining moderate GOP reps from the North East were all kicked out in yesterday's election. Given a choice between Democrat and Democrat Lite, those voters chose the real deal. The resulting House GOP will be more uniformly conservative.
4. Democrats have been making inroads into red states by running socially conservative candidates that look and sound just like republicans. For example, Kay Hagan beat Dole in N. Carolina. Hagan is a church elder and Sunday school teacher.
5. Although you didn't ask, social issues won in many states, including deep blue California.

To succeed, I think the GOP needs to make clear to local communities that it will not try to impose a federal "vision" on social issues. And yes, Charles, is some yahoo in the Ozarks wants to have their kids learn that the earth was created in 7 days 6000 years ago, let 'em. That way they'll stay happy in their little backwater and leave the rest of us alone.

Second, the GOP needs to celebrate the kind of individualism represented by Palin, not the bland collectivism celebrated by Obama and company. That will be much tougher, because that means that the GOP has to actively attack the problems of the poor in the blue states, to make it clear that statist, socialist solutions haven't worked in the past, and more of the same won't work any better.

741 HelloDare  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:47:51pm

What do we do about the press? That's the big problem. Obama won by 5%. The press was so biased, I'm surprised it was that close.

If half of that 5% changed their mind, it would have been even.

No matter what path the Republicans take, media biased has to be addressed. Some form of media jujitsu has to be employed. Something.

I'm worried that things will only get worse.

Why would the MSM want to do honest reporting on a candidate that they touted so heavily?

There is even less reason now for the MSM to be unbiased.

742 gregg  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:47:54pm

Maybe the best way for the social conservatives and libertarians to coexist in the Republican party is to have the party focus on fiscally conservative/small government/defense at the national level and leave the social issues (abortion, gay marriage...) up to the states to decide. Is that possible? Could it work?

743 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:48:00pm

re: #466 hoffmonster

How can this have been a referendum on the social conservative agenda?
two states had props pass that oppose gay marriage?
Any state that has put it on the ballot has had results that are similar,,,
the social conservative agenda is not dead..

It should be, though, from a strictly Conservative viewpoint, which sees such actions as gross intrusions of government power into the private lives of the citizenry.

744 Cadets96  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:48:01pm

I think many posters are making the mistake of using the Left's definition of Social Conservative when reflecting on what direction the movement should go; and what they, themselves are.

When defined by The Left, any use of the word "Conservative" means Jerry Falwell or some other cheap TV evangelist.

That is not what I am, and neither are you. When writing on the subject, do not defend Jerry Falwell, defend yourself.

Being a Social Conservative means that you have morals and values, that you believe in right and wrong. That you are judgmental (a good thing) and that you stand on principle.

It means that you believe in certain inalienable rights - things that just "are", such as the concept that all men should be free.

Our founding fathers knew that all me should be free. Freedom just "is". They then attributed this as a gift from God. I happen to agree with them.

God, however, is the great mystery. We can never confirm God or his gifts to us, and that's the way it should be. Faith.

The concept of Freedom, however, is not in doubt - it is a constant. One can shun God and religion, which is fine, but the inalienable right does not disappear with your belief in God.

That's just what The Left does all the time; tie the two together. When they throw out God and religion, they throw out everything else with it. That's why they are so outlandish and coarse in they're behavior sometimes.

That is why you are not Jerry Falwell. Many of you are moral. Many of you understand right and wrong. Many of you are of outstanding character. And, many of you, like me, do not go to church regularly. You read this blog, agree with it deeply, and it shapes your morals and values; but certainly Charles Johnson does not "smack of the pulpit", does he?

Being a Social Conservative does not mean being religious; it just happens that many, if not most people, get their morals, values, and ideas of right and wrong from religion. Maybe you believe that your inalienable rights come from God, maybe not. We, here, all know that they exist. There are plenty of places to find morals and values. In the thousands of years before technology made modern science possible, that's all men studied and wrote about.

Finally, please think of religion in America in a good light. Again, don't take The Left's version of religion. There is bad, but remember that your country's values came out of religious values.

I like to think of my Grandfather, who went to church every Sunday of his life. Or soldiers praying on the beach on D-Day. Movies like "The Bells of St. Mary's" or the Nuns in "The Sound of Music".

We are not nuts or wackos, but we are moral.

745 Dan G.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:48:03pm

re: #712 Walter L. Newton

A curious athiest (me) would like to know if anyone actually uses that version instead of the one commissioned by a monarch...

746 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:48:19pm

re: #726 Mad Scientist

Where does the shift to the left for social values leave an important leg of the 3 legged coalition of the GOP? The GOP has traditionally been strong when it emphasized the defense of country or military strength, economic strength, and social/family values. Take one leg away and the platform falls over. Are the Conservative Christians being told we are not welcome in the GOP tent any more? Should we join the Constitutional Party?

The Constitution Party? Where in the Constitution does it say that when Churches fail to teach their values, the government should step in?

747 Last Mohican  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:48:28pm

re: #681 tripletdad

Why hit the (R) self-destruct button - can we put it all back together again so we can beat those (D) bastards in 4 years?

Okay, here's what we need then: a devilishly handsome, dazzlingly eloquent black man who grew up in a poor family, and was raised in a black church that preached hope and love instead of hatred and violence. He was the first in his family to go to college at all, but he worked his way through either Harvard, Yale, or Princeton, before serving his country as an infantry lieutenant in Iraq, or maybe Desert Storm. He's a political moderate. He'll stand behind a podium and tell Obama, Reverend Wright, Louis Farrakhan, the Black Panthers et al. that they're all full of shit, because mainstream black Americans are decent, intelligent, hard-working, patriotic people, not maniacally hateful, violent racists who seek to destroy America.

I think that's pretty much what it'll take. Got one?

748 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:48:41pm
749 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:48:53pm

re: #732 Adina in Judea

Charles,

California's Proposition 8 against gay marriage passed yesterday.

One of the most liberal states in the country passed a proposition that embodies social conservatism.

Social conservatism did win in this yesterday.

They didn't have $600 million opposing this issue, of course.

Yep, it passed. A bad law, promoted by bad people, with a campaign of blatant fear-mongering. I voted against it. Amending the Constitution is exactly the wrong way to promote social issues.

750 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:48:55pm

re: #735 cliffster

Most of the Founders were Deists.

751 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:49:04pm

re: #685 CyanSnowHawk

News ink is a dyeing industry.

cute

752 rightsideup  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:49:25pm

You can kiss your 401K goodbye:

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

These people MUST be STOPPED.

753 Learned Mother of Zion  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:49:32pm

re: #707 Charles

Free Republic readers are really hatin' on me for this post:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

That's fine. After the disgusting barrage of hatred they excreted after Obama's grandmother died, they can bite me.

I find that I am spending more and more time at LGF while FReepers go into total meltdown.

754 RagnardD  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:49:36pm

I think, in the long run, we would be better off if the country split into three parties:
1) those who want to be left alone, and want to leave others alone
2) those who want to ram environmentalism (and socialism, and anti-white racism, and animal rights, and ...) down everyone's throat
3) those wh wan to ram their religion down everyone's throat

#2 and #3 are flavors of the same thing: use the power of government coercion to compel bended knee to your favorite fetish.

Right now, those who want to be left alone are divided. Some are more afraid of a socialist-environmentalist distopia, and vote R. Some are more afraid of a theocracy-medievalist return to the Dark Ages, and vote D.

A party who could unite this group might stand a chance at victory. Perhaps more importantly, it would bring clarity to this issue. As it stands today, people equate creationism-preaching and reduced tax-and-spend as being the same thing "conservative".

755 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:50:06pm

re: #173 Slumbering Behemoth

"Social Conservative" seems an oxymoron to me. Wouldn't the position of a true "socially conservative" person be that the gov't should stay the hell out of peoples private lives?

I have had dealings with many social/religious conservatives. They look back to various times in history: The Azusa Street revival that began in 1906 San Francisco and marks the beginning of Pentecostalism; The Second Great Awakening occurring mostly in the Northeast, from c. 1790 - c. 1840 that was marked by various "revivals" and renewed Christian zeal by the people involved; as well as other events that led large numbers of people to subscribe willingly to the Christian ethics of the day. They warmly look back to these golden times and then compare our modern society to their cherished ages. Although imposing Christianity, or Christian ethics, by law has never had much success—and generally was only shortly successful when the majority of people were strongly Christian—they hope that they can return America to a more ethical, moral, Christian time. My criticism of this trying to mandate Christian ethics (including some that have never been historically Christian) would generally be that it is both placing the burden of converting people on the government and doing so in a very minimalistic way. Minimalistic in that you are trying to force people to act according to the ethics of a faith without them first believing that faith. This is also my biggest problem with the Intelligent Design people: They are packaging their religious ideas in a fascade of science and are minimalising and doing a disservice to both. While on most other issues they want less government intrusion, they see the government promoting their ethics as a shortcut to their hopes for America becoming a truly Christian nation.

756 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:50:17pm
757 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:50:26pm

re: #700 SaneInMN

Sara Palin took on and BEAT a corrupt Republican political establishment in her home state. Give her another term as an executive, let her develop clear and concise positions on a variety of domestic and foreign policy issues, and let her present these issues at forums such as CPAC. She could be a force in the Republican party for years to come, if she wants it.


It'll be gut-check time for Sarah.

758 bnichols10  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:50:34pm

re: #742 gregg

Agree, but if we can leave it to the states why can't we leave it to the county level to decide? If we can leave it at the county why not let towns and cities decide? If towns and cities can decide why not just let the individual make up their own mind?

759 maddogg  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:51:21pm

What made me a Republican as a College student was 4 years of Jimmah Carter excuses, economic misery, and complete failure in all aspects of his administration. I think 4 years of Obama will have a similar effect.

760 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:51:31pm

re: #752 rightsideup

You can kiss your 401K goodbye:

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

These people MUST be STOPPED.

Socialism based on the success of capitalism WILL NEVER WORK! People will stop putting their money where it gets taken away!

761 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:51:32pm

re: #739 jainphx

Remember how THE BOOK tells us that believers will be treated in the end times? It seems not too far off now!

I was wondering how long it was going to take in this thread to bring up the christian equivalent of victimhood.

762 cliffster  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:51:37pm

re: #741 HelloDare

What do we do about the press? That's the big problem. Obama won by 5%. The press was so biased, I'm surprised it was that close.

If half of that 5% changed their mind, it would have been even.

No matter what path the Republicans take, media biased has to be addressed. Some form of media jujitsu has to be employed. Something.

I'm worried that things will only get worse.

Why would the MSM want to do honest reporting on a candidate that they touted so heavily?

There is even less reason now for the MSM to be unbiased.

I agree with you 100%. I was just saying earlier that the biggest cancer we face is the press and the way they have officially decided against journalistic integrity. I don't know how you solve it, except by creating alternative press and making it relevant. That's hard to do.

763 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:51:49pm

re: #744 Cadets96

I do think of religion as a good light in this country. But I don't appreciate the party that's supposed to stand for smaller government being used by people who can't instill their values through their church to use my party and government as their vehicle. It's un-conservative.

764 RubyTuesday  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:52:04pm

re: #717 Dianna
Nowhere in that post did I say I wanted the government to have anything to do with Christianity. My point was from the beginning that the first pointing fingers of blame were aimed at Christianity - which is NOT religion - and the fact that we should closet ourselves and be conservative according to a secular script.

765 dmjung  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:52:09pm

re: #633 baxtrice

If we limit government, if we protect civil liberties, we don't have to worry about mandates or issues that are hostile to religion. I think you missed my original point. I want government out of my business. I don't want to interact with it unless I have to. That's what most Americans desire.

I understood and agree with your "if" and we're probably saying the same thing from different ends. The reality is that government now intrudes into everyone's lives in a large number of areas--many that we don't even realize. The social conservatives that I run into are for the most part interested in politics mainly because of the (real/perceived) intrusion into their lives. If government were truly limited as we both prefer, then this probably wouldn't even be a matter of discussion.

766 mich-again  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:52:12pm

Anyone who wants to spread their religion should do it by living the example. Legislating it won't work. It will do the opposite actually.

767 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:52:50pm

re: #642 Killgore Trout

Is your job doing science at a science place?

it's amazing that you still get these ones who try to project the idea that creationism is scientific orthodoxy.

768 Wookieelips  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:53:11pm

re: #720 buzzsawmonkey

Of course, "antisemite" was introduced by German Jew-hater Wilhelm Marr to give a nice, slick, modern, pseudoscientific gloss to...Jew-hate.

Oh, good. I've refused a word a pre-Nazi era Nazi invented. Sweet.
Okay, so I still call German Jew-haters Nazis, no matter if they were around then or not. I'm wondering if that's unfair, or if it doesn't matter since Jew-haters suck anyway?

769 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:53:28pm

re: #680 Oh no...Sand People!

Just stay away from my video games! I am sick of politicians jumping on the 'video game' regulation bandwagon...

So..Romney...you jump again in 2012 and bring up any 'video game' talk again, you'll lose my vote.

/that one issue is actually toward the top of my list of petty grievances.

Ditto that. FWIW, Elliot Spitzer also had an anti-video game plank in his platform, and used some dishonest tactics to make his case. Guess we don't need to worry about that jerk anymore, though.

This push against gaming reminds me of the push against heavy metal music in the '80s. Seeing the First Lady on t.v. holding up a Def Leppard album and claiming that they want to blow up buildings, or encourage the youth to blow up buildings (or whatever her statement) was just sad, pathetic, and ridiculous. Def Leppard? Really?

770 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:53:38pm

re: #739 jainphx

Remember how THE BOOK tells us that believers will be treated in the end times? It seems not too far off now!

Great. An end-timer.

771 Dianna  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:53:41pm

re: #701 Adina in Judea

Sarah Palin puts a lie to the notion that extremely religious Christians (or Jews) are freaks who should be hidden or discarded if Republicans want to win.

California passed Proposition 8 against gay marriage.

Think of it! Vastly, vastly liberal California voted against gay marriage.

This was one of the supposedly "aggressively anti-gay rights" propositions and the people of California passed it.

California voted "YES" on social conservatism for this issue.

Social conservatism won in this particular way yesterday.

Amazing, eh?

Actually, no, a lot of us didn't. A lot of us opposed social activism by the judiciary.

I'd actually like to see gays make their case and persuade married people with children that gay marriage is not a further assault on marriage and family. Relying on the judiciary is a very dangerous thing.

772 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:53:43pm

re: #755 David IV of Georgia

Really nice post- thanks.

773 tedzilla99  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:53:46pm

re: #747 Last Mohican

Okay, here's what we need then: a devilishly handsome, dazzlingly eloquent black man who grew up in a poor family, and was raised in a black church that preached hope and love instead of hatred and violence. He was the first in his family to go to college at all, but he worked his way through either Harvard, Yale, or Princeton, before serving his country as an infantry lieutenant in Iraq, or maybe Desert Storm. He's a political moderate. He'll stand behind a podium and tell Obama, Reverend Wright, Louis Farrakhan, the Black Panthers et al. that they're all full of shit, because mainstream black Americans are decent, intelligent, hard-working, patriotic people, not maniacally hateful, violent racists who seek to destroy America.

I think that's pretty much what it'll take. Got one?

I don't know about his upbringing, but Herman Cain would be a genius pick by the GOP. Businessman, excellent speaker, down to earth, smart as hell, polite but strong on his opinions. If they are smart, they will keep Palin in the loop and she will be president in 2012 easily.

However, a true conservative of any ethnicity could destroy Obama in an election or debate - you see, when you're a senator, you are trying to get along with everyone, so you don't want to piss someone off in June in case you need their vote on your issue in July. A conservative can list off their principles and have nothing to equivocate on. The problem with McCain is that he made his reputation by screwing over his party in order to appear to be the maverick and above the politics. People want to vote for a strong leader, and he is nothing of the sort. Obama isn't, but with no clear alternative, they went with history and guilt and the front-runner. It's that simple.

774 loppyd  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:53:48pm

re: #741 HelloDare

What do we do about the press? That's the big problem. Obama won by 5%. The press was so biased, I'm surprised it was that close.

If half of that 5% changed their mind, it would have been even.

No matter what path the Republicans take, media biased has to be addressed. Some form of media jujitsu has to be employed. Something.

I'm worried that things will only get worse.

Why would the MSM want to do honest reporting on a candidate that they touted so heavily?

There is even less reason now for the MSM to be unbiased.

Republicans need to refuse to sit down for interviews with members of the MSM who will do anything and everything to thwart their efforts.

775 jaunte  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:53:53pm

re: #763 Sharmuta

Sowell's "unconstrained" vision again, coming from the religious side.

776 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:53:59pm

re: #745 Dan G.

A curious athiest (me) would like to know if anyone actually uses that version instead of the one commissioned by a monarch...

Well, it never became canon, it was never used officially in any churches. The congressional printing office did issue a copy to all congress critters at one time (I think 1892), and it has been reprinted, try Amazon.

777 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:54:13pm
778 RubyTuesday  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:54:18pm

re: #739 jainphx
Word!

779 shiek al beif salami  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:54:22pm

re: #595 bosforus

IMHO, racism as an accusation against the United States is dead, dead, dead. A few racists may live here, but the country isn't racist. That issue died once and for all last night, and anyone who keeps it going is a racist by definition.Whether BHO will be regarded as an affirmative action president only history can tell, but America proved last night that race is no longer an issue. The question now is when will America's critics overcome their national racism? When will the U.K. elect a Brito-Pakistani? The French a Gallic-Algerian? The Russians a Chechnya-Russkie? And in Zimbabwe, a white guy. Buck up fellas, and face the music.

Obama's race was never an issue for me (I've lived under black presidents in Botswana, Zimbabwe, and Malawi, so it's no longer special for like it is for some of you), but his politics are (as I just pointed out, I already lived under Mugabe's thugocracy.)

780 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:54:23pm

re: #756 buzzsawmonkey

They were also mostly lawyers, and imposed a cease-and-Deist on the Constitution to avoid the religious pitfalls of the Old World.

Excellent!

781 UFO TOFU  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:54:38pm

re: #492 Slumbering Behemoth

I think some folks are more rabidly obsessed with Charles' stance on creationism than he is on anything.


I've been thinking that too.

782 Richard Romano  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:54:42pm
the social conservatives did not win.

Sorry, they did win -- Prop 8 anyone? Rush said it best, "Sarah Palin is our future" and not men like David Frum, who aided and abetted Obama's victory by his snide comments about Palin.

Jindal would thoroughly eat Frum's lunch, and his dessert too.

783 WestSea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:54:42pm

re: #757 DeafDog

It'll be gut-check time for Sarah.

Four to 8 years with a president that wants to bankrupt any industry the emits greenhouse gases, particularly one that supplies 48% of the country's energy - will make Sarah Palin look even more attractive as a candidate. I agreed with her energy stance and her belief it is a national security issue. To me that will be a defining issue in the next few years.

784 scratch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:55:09pm

re: #620 DeafDog

...(nothing wrong with monday morning qb'ing)

Well dangit, just now saw that you complimented my joke upstream. Didn't mean to sound ungrateful by bickering on another topic.

/pandering

785 maddogg  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:55:21pm

Hey! it's end time, somewhere...

786 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:55:46pm

re: #761 Walter L. Newton

I was wondering how long it was going to take in this thread to bring up the christian equivalent of victimhood.

Wait a minute? We talking about 72 virgins? Which book is 'THE BOOK'?

/ducks under desk...

787 jaunte  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:55:53pm

re: #781 UFO TOFU

You may have noticed there are some that don't post on anything but the creationism threads.

788 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:56:07pm

re: #650 Charles

You're dodging the fact that you tried to say Palin left the Pentecostal church as a child, and that's simply not true.
You're also dodging my question about whether you're a creationist yourself.
Almost always, the ones who moan and complain about my "obsession" with creationism turn out to be creationists themselves.

I think your views on Creationism are quite mainstream. Those who holler at you about your "obsession" are IMO projecting their own obsession.
Now that the election is over, let's get something straight - Palin was chosen by McCain to consolidate the religious/social right wing of the GOP with her born-again, right-to-life, creationist views. She performed brilliantly in the circumstances and stick-handled the issue of teaching ID in science class very nicely, but she never definitively repudiated the idea. Moderate Reps had to put the best face on it during the campaign but it would be counterproductive to now try to carry forward the Palin myth. Sarah needs to go back to Alaska.

And the right wing of the GOP needs to leave their ultra-religious zealotry schtick at home and move to the centre of the political spectrum or else they may as well start a new religious party and advocate for the repeal of both the separation of Church and State and the equal protection clause.

789 capitalist piglet  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:56:07pm

re: #707 Charles

Free Republic readers are really hatin' on me for this post:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

That's fine. After the disgusting barrage of hatred they excreted after Obama's grandmother died, they can bite me.

I saw things over there when Eric Rudolph was on the run that were absolutely shocking to me. The fringe of the fringe hangs out there.

If they reject your viewpoint, it merely enhances your credibilty.

790 Wookieelips  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:56:11pm

re: #742 gregg

Maybe the best way for the social conservatives and libertarians to coexist in the Republican party is to have the party focus on fiscally conservative/small government/defense at the national level and leave the social issues (abortion, gay marriage...) up to the states to decide. Is that possible? Could it work?

I don't know if it would work, but it would be lovely if it did.

791 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:56:15pm

re: #770 Charles

Great. An end-timer.

As I said in my 761...

"I was wondering how long it was going to take in this thread to bring up the christian equivalent of victimhood."

792 Soona'  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:56:28pm

re: #653 Steve Rogers

But when that hypothetical South Georgia school district starts to teach "creationsim" even for a few months, the Democrats and the media (but I repeat myself) will spin it to show that all conservatives are snake-handling flat-earthers. Those few months it is in school books harm conservatives more than you could know, and it will pay negative dividends on election day.

Once the Republican party gets rid of that albatross around its collective neck, elections will be easier for them to win.

I know what point you're trying to make but inadvertantly stumbled onto where the blame really should be. The MSM.

793 Mike in Georgia  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:56:31pm

re: #568 faraway

Wait a minute now, that's my pissant county school board and
I have bad mouthed them enough for both of us.

794 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:56:33pm

re: #779 shiek al beif salami

IMHO, racism as an accusation against the United States is dead, dead, dead. A few racists may live here, but the country isn't racist. That issue died once and for all last night, and anyone who keeps it going is a racist by definition.

Sorry, I don't agree the issue has died. Al Sharpton is already ramping up to push even harder on his favorite race-baiting issues, and that's the direction things are headed.

795 Tigger2005  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:56:43pm

[Link: www.conservative.org...]

Nowhere in this brilliant statement on conservatism does Ronald Reagan mention religion or moral issues.

It is not the job of conservatives to legislate morality or religion. When we impose government in people's lives in this way, we lose any standing to tell the Left it has no business digging in people's pocketbooks. Are there exceptions? Yes, like BAIPA. But the Terry Schiavo incident (for example) was beyond the pale, a vast overreaching of government power.

If you don't like the lax morals of the people, then preach and lead a revival ... or, argue logically and persuasively on the merits of moral behavior. Passing laws will only make them resentful and rebellious.

And this I.D. thing REALLY needs to be nipped in the bud.

796 NeedleStack  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:56:47pm

re: #204 DistantThunder

Laws against violence is not legislating morality, it's legislating liberty for those who the violence would be against.

797 maddogg  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:56:54pm

I got caught spotlighting rabbits as a teenager. The Game Warden threw "THE BOOK" at me...

798 HoosierHoops  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:00pm

re: #761 Walter L. Newton

I was wondering how long it was going to take in this thread to bring up the christian equivalent of victimhood.

GMTA
2000 years ago they fed Christians to the Lions...Now they are afraid of becoming victims in the future..oh boy..I think they are evolving from victimhood not evolving to it...
or something like that...

799 HelloDare  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:01pm

re: #732 Adina in Judea

Charles,

California's Proposition 8 against gay marriage passed yesterday.

One of the most liberal states in the country passed a proposition that embodies social conservatism.

Social conservatism did win in this yesterday.

They didn't have $600 million opposing this issue, of course.

Blacks and Hispanics historically are apposed to gay marriage. As you know, Blacks and Hispanics also voted very heavily for Obama. Those two groups are conservative on that one issue. Well, blacks are also for vouchers. Prop 8 is a aberration. Liberal black and Hispanic voters pushed it over the top.

800 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:04pm

re: #759 maddogg

What made me a Republican as a College student was 4 years of Jimmah Carter excuses, economic misery, and complete failure in all aspects of his administration. I think 4 years of Obama will have a similar effect.


Remember, we already had two years of Nancy & Harry. Come 2010, they will have a record that they can't blame on GWB.

801 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:13pm

re: #723 onepistoffyid

Charles you are absolutely correct, and I was one of the Lizards that was soundly thrashed when I posted that I thought PAlin would lose the election for McCain. I was called a moby and a troll.

Palin was a stupid, boneheaded choice and the Lizards that bashed me on this earlier can now eat crow. The Republicans will be out office permanently if they keep floating the likes of her for office.

Nonsense. She was still a great candidate regardless of why she was brought on board. If you are going to toss any candidate merely because of their religion and he/she MIGHT bring a religious bias with them is absurd.

802 opnion  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:19pm

re: #723 onepistoffyid

Charles you are absolutely correct, and I was one of the Lizards that was soundly thrashed when I posted that I thought PAlin would lose the election for McCain. I was called a moby and a troll.

Palin was a stupid, boneheaded choice and the Lizards that bashed me on this earlier can now eat crow. The Republicans will be out office permanently if they keep floating the likes of her for office.


There is not a shed of empirical evidence to support the propostion that Sarah Palin cost McCain the election. Even after the media & Dems mauled her , her positives were better than her negatives.
She gave McCain a bump in the polls & then came the economic crash.
McCain is responsible for a poor campaign.

803 MPH  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:19pm

re: #617 jainphx

I'm basically saying the following:

The platform of the republican party is best simplified into the following:

"Freedom of association and protection of individual rights at home and abroad. Separation of ALL religions and state."

Simplified, there is no need to compromise with religious conservatives or environmentalists or socialists or democrats. This is the big tent that most Americans desire to live under -- the underlying ethic of the United States of America that never changes, even as technology and human experience moves forward.

804 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:32pm

re: #749 Charles

Yep, it passed. A bad law, promoted by bad people, with a campaign of blatant fear-mongering. I voted against it. Amending the Constitution is exactly the wrong way to promote social issues.

Many folks found the judges actions reprehensible, ir: overturning the peoples vote against gay-marriage. I voted against Prop-8 also. But I can also understand the peoples anger with judges who circumvent the peoples will.

805 gregg  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:35pm

re: #758 bnichols10

Agree, but if we can leave it to the states why can't we leave it to the county level to decide? If we can leave it at the county why not let towns and cities decide? If towns and cities can decide why not just let the individual make up their own mind?

I would sure like to be able decide if I wanted to pay taxes.

806 medaura18586  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:41pm

re: #123 Charles

I think Palin was a cynical pick by McCain, to get the fundamentalist Christians aboard his campaign. And it worked.

I believe there were more than a few moderate centrists who might have voted for McCain, but were turned off by Palin's Pentecostalism. Hell, I don't just believe this -- I saw this happen at LGF. More than a few readers who were pre-disposed to vote for McCain had their minds changed when Sarah Palin became the veep nominee.

I backed Palin up, because as far as I know she never really pushed the social con agenda. But it's pretty hard to deny that's why she was brought onboard.

I'm glad you see that too.

Sarah Palin does not deserve the despicable dirt she has been thrown in her face, but she is a populist, she did back the Bridge-to-Nowhere before she opposed it (turning with the tide of public opinion), she did essentially blame free enterprise for the meltdown (the greed in Wall Street), and does not have a consistent political ideology. She also always sounded like a panderer to me, and had this annoying tendency of dumbing down political discourse, a criticism which Peggy Noonan articulately leveled against her.

All I hope is that Republicans don't use her as The One, for the next election and beyond. She's the wrong direction for the Right to turn to. The short-term gains in populist crowds is not worth the sacrifice of long term goals.

807 lennysquiggy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:47pm

#744:

THANK YOU.

You're on the money with that. Let the Falwell types believe what they want. They are welcome in the GOP, but the platform must draw a line between freedom and imposing your values through the government.

This is a chance to use the principles of small government to show that the left is wrong when they say we hate gays or we are racist or whatever BS they are spewing at any given time.

Creationism? Cool. Just don't let it into the schools.

ACORN? Awesome. But fund it with your own left-wing Hollywood fundraisers.

Gay Marriage? Outstanding. Good luck finding a church that supports it.

Reduce the size of government and make the GOP tent bigger. If you believe in small government, you're one of us. It doesn't matter if you are gay or you are a Creatonist. Just don't expect your beliefs to be forced on the rest of us.

And as for abortion, we have murder laws on the books.

808 shiek al beif salami  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:49pm

re: #794 Charles

You make my point: only racists will continue to use the issue politically.

809 Soona'  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:49pm

re: #727 WestSea

Do you think he'll select Hillary for anything?

Ambassador to Chechnia.

810 nyc redneck  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:57:55pm

re: #734 ploome hineni

someone should have given McCain a clue

the time to reach across the aisle is AFTER YOU WIN, John

to clean the blood of your apponent off the floor

precisely,
how are you doing ploome?

811 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:58:00pm

The issue is whether the US of A is going take a stand on morality or immorality. If athiests, pagans and anyone else wants to associate morality with fundamental Christianity, so be it, however, morality vs immorality begins at home and then is finished off in the class room.

The US education system, as with the rest of the west, is being moulded by the crap that comes out of the UN, human rights, gay rights, children's rights, everybodies rights except the parents.

The GOP has always been associated with the right and Christian moral attitudes. The bottom line, now, is you have lost your children to an immoral way of thinking based on selfishness and it is being re-inforced, indoctrinated in the classroom.

Children now have rights and so the parents have had their authority removed. Removal of that authority means children do not respect their parents, they will not respect their teachers, they will not respect police, the law, the government. If it feels good, do it, if it tastes good, drink it or eat it. If you get pregnant, abort it.

Unless you get back your education system and start teaching a sound moral attitude that leads to respect for authority you are all, quite frankly, stuffed. You have Obama, now, so it will only get worse.

812 Russkilitlover  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:58:19pm

re: #749 Charles

Yep, it passed. A bad law, promoted by bad people, with a campaign of blatant fear-mongering. I voted against it. Amending the Constitution is exactly the wrong way to promote social issues.

I thought for sure it would go down. The fear mongering was shriller than any of the wacko Obama-is-not-a-citizen crowd. It's the one surprising thing in this election!

813 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:58:31pm

re: #430 Walter L. Newton

Well, I don't think we know yet, do we. Certainly in the past groups like "The Moral Majority" wanted government to do for them what they should have been doing in the pulpit.

What's scary is that there is even a government mechanism that would allow such a thing to happen.

814 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:58:32pm

re: #788 Spare O'Lake

And the right wing of the GOP needs to leave their ultra-religious zealotry schtick at home and move to the centre of the political spectrum or else they may as well start a new religious party and advocate for the repeal of both the separation of Church and State and the equal protection clause.

I agree. They should put their money where their mouth is.

815 libertyvista  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:58:36pm

McCain is not particularly conservative socially or economically. So I don't give much credence to the theory that it's his social conservatism that hurt him in the election. I suppose he could have exactly mirrored Obama on social issues, and would he have won then? I think he would have done worse.

816 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:58:52pm

re: #772 Sharmuta

You're welcome.

817 dmjung  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:58:59pm

re: #672 Sharmuta

I'm not dismissing morals. I said you can't legislate morality. If you don't believe me, read up on the prohibition era.

It seems like all laws are someone's version of morality.

818 MadJadBad  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:59:03pm

re: #570 medaura18586

You do have to be quite a fundamentalist to be against abortion.


Not at all. The Constitution guarantees the "natural" rights of the people. Abortion then becomes a question of when does a fetus become a "person". The natural rights of a person do not matter if that person conceived by rape or incest, or if that person is "wanted and loved" or if the mother wants "privacy rights" or if it looks like that person may have a crappy life. This position is already supported by laws that can charge someone with murder if they attack a pregnant woman and kill the unborn child but not the mother.

819 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:59:28pm

re: #784 scratch

I never take anything personal on LGF - we're family (unless papa charles gets angry with ya)

820 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:59:32pm

re: #794 Charles

Sorry, I don't agree the issue has died. Al Sharpton is already ramping up to push even harder on his favorite race-baiting issues, and that's the direction things are headed.

Afraid you are right in it is the green flag to push all the issues. Reparations will probably be somewhere at the top of the list I'm thinking.

Just curious if the President-elect will have to apologize for slavery? ;-)>

821 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:59:53pm

re: #749 Charles

re: #732 Adina in Judea

Charles,

California's Proposition 8 against gay marriage passed yesterday.

One of the most liberal states in the country passed a proposition that embodies social conservatism.

Social conservatism did win in this yesterday.

They didn't have $600 million opposing this issue, of course.

Yep, it passed. A bad law, promoted by bad people, with a campaign of blatant fear-mongering. I voted against it. Amending the Constitution is exactly the wrong way to promote social issues.

It's still extremely significant that it won.

It was a referendum on social conservatism on this one issue and it won.

In California.

P.S. How did anyone scare anyone else in this issue? What is it about gay marriage that anyone in California didn't know until the Proposition 8 campaign?

822 FrogMarch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:59:55pm

I haven't had time to read all the comments so forgive me if this has already come and gone as a topic.

I heard today on the radio that:
49-51 split among white voted against gay marriage in CA.
70% of blacks in CA voted against gay marriage.
we already know 70-80% of blacks vote Democrat.

So what's up with that?

Many forget that people are religious on both the right and left - but the right side gets all the blame.

823 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 2:59:59pm

re: #749 Charles

Except that it was necessary in this case insofar that when it was passed through the legislature (the correct way) the first time it was completely disregarded by the State Lawmakers. Then it was "overturned" by the hugely liberal Court of CA.

What other option did Prop 8 supporters have exactly at this point?

They did it right the 1st time and some Gov leaders just simply ignored the will of the people.

824 Moe Katz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:00:04pm

re: #600 Slumbering Behemoth


All their base are not belong to us.

Good one!

825 WestSea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:00:15pm

re: #809 Soona'

Ambassador to Chechnia.

Ah, good one...

826 DeafDog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:00:25pm

re: #794 Charles

Sorry, I don't agree the issue has died. Al Sharpton is already ramping up to push even harder on his favorite race-baiting issues, and that's the direction things are headed.

Can you say reperations? Sure. I knew ya could.

827 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:00:35pm

re: #690 Killgore Trout

GTA IV is out on PC soon. I can't wait.

Tried Fallout 3? It's out now. Set in a post-nuclear Washington DC. Classy writing, good slow-mo decapitations, amputations etc. Very 'Mad Max' in style.

828 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:00:41pm

re: #707 Charles

Free Republic readers are really hatin' on me for this post:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

That's fine. After the disgusting barrage of hatred they excreted after Obama's grandmother died, they can bite me.

This is another problem that needs to be addressed - the degeneration of civil debate and commentary into a trip to a cage full of poo-flinging monkeys. Blog after blog I visited Monday had similar comments posted, despite pleas from myself and others to lock such threads and delete those vile messages.

This is a downside to the Internet; the anonymity it offers also excuses gross, thoughtless, rude behavior. And if you're immersed in gross, thoughtless, rude behavior hour by hour, day after day and year after year, you start to think it's normal, and you start acting that way all the time. I've seen this sort of filth spill over in person, as people start snarking on perceived opponents in real life. So far, it's mostly been from those on the Left, who have been at this sort of unconstrained mud-slinging longer, but over here on the Right we are doing the same thing, increasingly, and we need to fight it. It not only makes us look bad to the outside world. It makes us just plain bad. We become our words, over time, and we mustn't degenerate into simply reaching for the first handy insult we can lay hands on in response to opposition. Reasoned refutation is always preferable and more powerful.

I like it here. It's much more civil than most blogs, because of the careful moderation. It wouldn't hurt at all if such civility were expanded.

829 bulwrk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:00:57pm

re: #759 maddogg


I was having a late dinner in Hollywood last night and the level of euphoria from people was astounding. They really believe that they have changed the world by electing Obama.

830 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:01:17pm

re: #768 Wookieelips

"I'm not a Nazi...Naziism is a specific political party in Germany during the 1930s and 1940s...its 2008 and I'm in America...how could I be a Nazi?"

/

831 nyc redneck  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:01:32pm

re: #794 Charles

Sorry, I don't agree the issue has died. Al Sharpton is already ramping up to push even harder on his favorite race-baiting issues, and that's the direction things are headed.

doing what he does best.
and getting results.
why would he drop that big stick?

832 Parker in US  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:01:36pm

re: #633 baxtrice

If we limit government, if we protect civil liberties, we don't have to worry about mandates or issues that are hostile to religion. I think you missed my original point. I want government out of my business. I don't want to interact with it unless I have to. That's what most Americans desire.

/Bingo

833 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:01:39pm

re: #296 IgofAntioch

The Republicans lost because for eight years we heard that "Bush is a chimp" and that the Republicans were resposible for every evil in the world. Eight years of that in the daily press and the lies become fixed as truths. It had nothing to do with social conservatism. There was no coherent message and the Republican brand was so badly damaged in the psychics of the people. That is why "change" played so well. No one knows what it means but heck people fell for it.


They used the same attacks against Reagan, but they didn't work ... maybe you should ask why?

834 shiek al beif salami  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:02:17pm

re: #820 Outrider

Those who keep pushing these kinds of issues are not post-racial; they are just plain old racists.

835 jaunte  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:02:21pm

"College-educated Americans have come to believe that their money is safe with Democrats – but that their values are under threat from Republicans."

I can see that there is an arguable possibility the Republicans can fix the concerns for threatening voters values, but how can they fix the fantasy that Democrats will keep our money safe?

836 baxtrice  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:02:23pm

back later guys, have fun righting "The Right"

:)

837 lennysquiggy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:02:57pm

#803:

I think I just posted the same thing. Good to see someone agrees with me.

By definition, that is what America is - small government and freedom. I'm sick of voting for weak-kneed moderates over socialism just so I can be called a bigot while watching my side lose.

838 bnichols10  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:03:05pm

re: #805 gregg

I think Rush said at one point that everyone should get their full gross salary and be required to write a check for their taxes. I liked that a lot as I think most people have no idea how much they pay or where it goes.

Of course I would prefer much lower taxes, or at the very least taxes should be collected and used at the level they are needed. I see no sense (except for passing out favors) in collecting federal tax and then passing the money back out to the states. If a state like CA feels they need universal health care, for example, go ahead and tax their residents for it and provide the service. If it works, great. If not, people leave, the state goes bankrupt or the program gets canceled.

839 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:03:07pm

re: #829 bulwrk

I was having a late dinner in Hollywood last night and the level of euphoria from people was astounding. They really believe that they have changed the world by electing Obama.

They may have. We shall see.

840 DisturbedEma  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:03:17pm

re: #581 bosforus

Always a good thing. Reps/conservatives will only be a strong force if the force can be defined.

I may have missed the Jewish weigh in on this- but here is my take. . .

As a blue collar Midwest Jew, this election was a welcome home party for me in a sense.

I have VERY little in common with the East/West Coast idea of a "Jew". . .I am not a therapist having Richard Lewis angst ridden type, and none of my family is either.

I was drawn to Sarah Palin, despite religious differences with her, because the democratic party, for many years, has been waging a subtle battle to dereligionize everything, while also trying to make socialism the new morality.

I am religious, and I have a great respect for people who can be out loud and proud about their faith, no matter what it is. . .

I would ask, can this party, the Republican party, grow to the extent that religious affliation can be from religions OTHER than Christianty?

Jews like me are lost in the democratic party, and well, the GOP, is is always about Christian values? Or is it religious ones?

841 flaggman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:03:29pm

Another vote for "Wrong, Charles". If you don't have SoCons, you don't have a base. Fiscal cons are too busy making a living to be grass-roots active. Security cons can be on both sides of the aisle, it's not really an ideological issue. But SoCons are the enthusiastic, energetic ones who are always for fiscal and security strength, too. Plus, America was founded by strong believers who made the country's mission (and its constitution) explicity tied to God's will. It may make you feel icky, but it's a fact you can't get around. It's how the revolution was sold and won - we reject earthly kings, only God is sovereign over the people.

842 Devil's Advocate  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:03:31pm

Hey Frum:

McCain WAS the moderate center-of-the-road candidate that was going to appeal to independents.

That was precisely why when people said, "Why are you for McCain?" The response was..."Obama is a Socialist."

843 cliffster  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:03:35pm

re: #833 Thanos

They used the same attacks against Reagan, but they didn't work ... maybe you should ask why?

Because Reagan spoke to the people. He called press conferences - he told us what was up. The papers all said he was an idiot, but people saw him and heard him enough to know that he wasn't.

844 Victrola  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:05:01pm

Yes, by all means let's all try to out-Democrat the Democrats. That'll work for sure!

/NOT

845 jaunte  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:05:06pm

re: #838 bnichols10

Vampires have evolved means to make the bleeding of their victims as painless as possible, and this trend will continue.

846 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:05:21pm

re: #811 A Kiwi Infidel

I think you are confusing two issues- civics and religion. SHould children be taught morals? Of course. This comes from their parents and more likely than not, form a religious institution.

Schools are not for teaching morality. What schools should be doing is teaching children critical thinking skills and certainly our civics education needs improving.

The US is either going to stand for the rights of individuals or slide into collectivism. There are moral and civic arguments both to favor individual rights. We must all seek solutions to what we can do to bring this about for the future of not just America, but for all people protecting or seeking freedom.

847 formercorpsman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:05:43pm

Does anyone think federal or state tax dollars should fund abortions?

848 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:05:54pm

re: #840 DisturbedEma

Jews like me are lost in the democratic party, and well, the GOP, is is always about Christian values? Or is it religious ones?

Roughly 80% of America's Orthodox Jews are Republicans.

I've never seen a problem with this.

America is seen as having Judeo-Christian values, so religious Jews fit right in with Republicans.

849 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:06:10pm

re: #843 cliffster

Because Reagan spoke to the people. He called press conferences - he told us what was up. The papers all said he was an idiot, but people saw him and heard him enough to know that he wasn't.

and ..because Bush refused speak to the people. He rarely called press conferences to tell us what was up. The papers all said he was an idiot, and people saw him and heard him enough to know that he was.

850 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:06:24pm

re: #779 shiek al beif salami

IMHO...

Your opinion on the issue is nothing to be humble about. You have a unique perspective that should be heard by many others. As far as racism being a "dead issue"...boy, how I wish it were! But it's the dems bread and butter.

851 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:06:33pm

re: #847 formercorpsman

I don't think we are supposed to discuss abortion here...but my answer is "only if the Gov funds other medical procedures, and not if they do not"

852 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:06:39pm

1) Republican Party should strive to protect and secure the Republic, as constructed under the U.S. Constitution, including the Bill of Rights
2) Religious conservatives can fight the good fight for social conservative values in support of Republicans or Democrats who share those social conservative values. If none share those, then so long as our rights have been preserved and upheld as citizens of this Republic, we may advocate independently and as we see fit for social conservatism and support whichever Party fights for and preserves Constitutional freedoms.
3) It might be best if religious conservatives were no longer beholden to any one political party. The happenstance or convergence of interests between Republican Party and religious conservatives may well be at an end. So be it. Let our Constitution and liberties be preserved.
3) What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?

853 tackle  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:06:51pm

How many "Jindal" conservatives are there, really? I'm not convinced that it's a huge number. While they may be vocal, not all religious people fall into that category. I consider myself very religious, but:
-support civil unions
-think safe, legal abortion could be done under certain circumstances
-believe in evolution AND God
Also, morality is legislated all the time. It just ruffles feathers under some circumstances.

854 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:07:03pm

re: #843 cliffster

Because Reagan spoke to the people. He called press conferences - he told us what was up. The papers all said he was an idiot, but people saw him and heard him enough to know that he wasn't.

That's part of it, but he also was a federalist.

855 medaura18586  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:07:30pm

re: #818 MadJadBad

Not at all. The Constitution guarantees the "natural" rights of the people. Abortion then becomes a question of when does a fetus become a "person". The natural rights of a person do not matter if that person conceived by rape or incest, or if that person is "wanted and loved" or if the mother wants "privacy rights" or if it looks like that person may have a crappy life. This position is already supported by laws that can charge someone with murder if they attack a pregnant woman and kill the unborn child but not the mother.

Mostly agreed.

See my #738.

My beef is with those who want to ban abortion categorically. There is no empirical way to determining when a fetus becomes a human being as this is all semantics. But reasonable people should agree that the zygote itself is not a human being, neither is an embryo of 4-5 weeks. Only a religious interpretation could justify the assertion that a zygote or very undeveloped embryo is equivalent to a human being.

It takes no longer than 2 weeks for a woman to learn she is pregnant. An embryo need not be older than 4-5 weeks to be viable for an abortion. Women who want to decide quickly should be able to.

I don't get why anyone would want to continuation the pregnancy any longer than absolutely necessary before getting an abortion, if that is their ultimate intention.

I do not support the right of a callous cow to "choose" and change her mind on her 3th month, or 8th month. A few weeks ought to be more than enough to make up one's mind.

Even a very young embryo should be considered protectable if the mother intends to carry it to term, because it would be a potential human being.

856 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:07:39pm

Dang, I'm getting ignored so much around here I think I'm back with the family.

857 bulwrk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:07:44pm

re: #839 unrealizedviewpoint

Well it may change but not in the way they think it will,I think they are going to be sorely disappointed.

858 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:07:50pm

re: #835 jaunte

"College-educated Americans have come to believe that their money is safe with Democrats – but that their values are under threat from Republicans."

I can see that there is an arguable possibility the Republicans can fix the concerns for threatening voters values, but how can they fix the fantasy that Democrats will keep our money safe?

We can't. They're about to get at least a two year lesson in how wrong their perception was.

859 lennysquiggy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:07:58pm

#811:

Change the educational system from the inside and the ground up. Bill Ayres and his ilk did it the most effective way - they became college professors and community organizers and teachers.

There is no way you're going to change the schools by putting it in the GOP platform. Educational advocacy groups with a moral (not religious) leaning need to be created, funded and supported, but they can't be a part of the platform.

Putting "traditional rights back in the schools" on the GOP platform will be as effective as the Dems annoucing that they want to teach far left philosophy to kids. The Dems did it stealthily and they've been destroying the schools from within for decades. We need to counter that, but we need to get in the trenches and do it from the ground up just like they did.

860 cliffster  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:08:03pm

re: #838 bnichols10

I see no sense (except for passing out favors) in collecting federal tax and then passing the money back out to the states. If a state like CA feels they need universal health care, for example, go ahead and tax their residents for it and provide the service. If it works, great. If not, people leave, the state goes bankrupt or the program gets canceled.

Agreed 100%. The thing is, this is how the federal governments gets power, without looking like they are violating State's Rights.

861 shiplord kirel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:08:09pm

re: #732 Adina in Judea

Charles,

California's Proposition 8 against gay marriage passed yesterday.

One of the most liberal states in the country passed a proposition that embodies social conservatism.

Social conservatism did win in this yesterday.

They didn't have $600 million opposing this issue, of course.

The conservative position did win, and it is a social issue, but the opposition to prop 8 is not necessarily a religious one, or an anti-libertarian one. Most religious systems condemn homosexual marriage for the very good, if unrecognized, reason that it is contrary to the reality of a rational social structure.
Ironically, the opposition could just as well be based on evolutionary theory; specifically, the paramount importance of the family, the nurturing and reproductive unit that ensures both the social and the biological survival of the community. Homosexuals may do as they please, in my opinion, but they do not have a legitimate claim to the kind of priority all human tradition assigns to the continuation of the species. The notion that they do is a shallow and ignorant conception based, once again, on the superficial worldview of mass media culture.

862 formercorpsman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:08:15pm

re: #851 WrathofG-d

I actually stay away from the topic, but this thread, it seems to me, speaks directly about it. Hence, my respectful tone, and serious participation.

But, if I need to leave it alone, no problem.

863 HoosierHoops  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:08:26pm

re: #856 WrathofG-d

Dang, I'm getting ignored so much around here I think I'm back with the family.

I read everything you post...

864 jainphx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:08:45pm

re: #647 CyanSnowHawk

Are you a school teacher. LOL

865 kaymad  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:08:46pm

I firmly believe that in this particular race nothing beat not much of anything.

8 years of Bush derangement syndrome from the media and democrats was bound to take it's toll. Obama promised the world and nothing at all, he was carried across the finish line by the media. McCain, he yapped endlessly on social conservatism? I don't think so. However, he was off message and all over the map trying to gain a foothold against the vague promises of Obama.

Most importantly, I'm not willing to trust anyone in the media to tell me what went wrong with the GOP.

866 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:09:45pm

re: #782 Richard Romano

Sorry, they did win -- Prop 8 anyone? Rush said it best, "Sarah Palin is our future" and not men like David Frum, who aided and abetted Obama's victory by his snide comments about Palin.

Those social cons who voted for prop 8 also aided and abetted Obama's victory. They came out in full force to pass Prop 8, and I seriously doubt they left the POTUS option blank; CA went to Obama.

These are not the social cons you are looking for.
/Old Ben

867 Moe Katz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:09:53pm

re: #723 onepistoffyid

Charles you are absolutely correct, and I was one of the Lizards that was soundly thrashed when I posted that I thought PAlin would lose the election for McCain. I was called a moby and a troll.

Timing is everything.

868 formercorpsman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:10:12pm

re: #856 WrathofG-d

Wrath, I'm not ignoring you my friend.

Just trying to read, and keep up with the posts.

869 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:10:21pm

re: #855 medaura18586

There is no empirical way to determining when a fetus becomes a human being as this is all semantics. But reasonable people should agree that the zygote itself is not a human being, neither is an embryo of 4-5 weeks. Only a religious interpretation could justify the assertion that a zygote or very undeveloped embryo is equivalent to a human being.

If you don't think it's human (with individual human DNA and the properties of a living entity), then what do you think it is?

870 cliffster  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:10:38pm

re: #854 Thanos

That's part of it, but he also was a federalist.

Because he was a Federalist, people didn't think he was an idiot? :^) That was the original question - the press said he was stupid constantly, just like they did with Bush, except that people didn't believe it. And with Bush, they did.

871 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:10:47pm

re: #856 WrathofG-d

Dang, I'm getting ignored so much around here I think I'm back with the family.

Ha ha, I'm already talking waaay too much! Keep tryin'!

872 DisturbedEma  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:10:50pm

re: #616 Sharmuta

That must be why some of my gay friends refuse to join the republicans since they think of the GOP as anti-gay.

re: #848 Adina in Judea

Roughly 80% of America's Orthodox Jews are Republicans.

I've never seen a problem with this.

America is seen as having Judeo-Christian values, so religious Jews fit right in with Republicans.

Log Cabin? That is the group I think. . .Gay conservatives I think. . .

873 Florida Lady  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:10:50pm

Reagan was a unique American politician in that he united all 3 parts of conservatism - miltary/fiscal/social - with a smile on his face and a natural sunny old-fashioned American optimism which was naturallly infectious and made him trustworthy across party lines and age groups. He didn't lecture or threaten or preach. But damn it, you knew he believed in what he was saying. And it didn't hurt one bit that he had those movie star good looks.

What is needed is someone with a record of accomplishment who can articulate those values.

IMHO, out of everyone in American political conservative circles today, Sarah Palin is that person who comes closest to the personification of Reagan.

The blue-blood Republicans despise & dismiss her just as they did - and still sometimes do - Reagan.

She needs a few more years of experience, time out of the spotlight, to concentrate on her job, and then have a rebirth of sorts onto the political scene.

Hey, muzzling WAB for a few months and re-presenting her to the country as the black Jackie-O seemed to work for Obama!

874 WestSea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:11:03pm

Jindal is an example of a conservative who is digging his own grave for his creationist platform. He would do well otherwise.

875 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:11:15pm

Ask yourself this Lizards: Would the Discovery Institute's millions be better spent on "Exploring the Constitution" rather than "Exploring Evolution"?

Which is more likely to produce actual good results for SO-Cons? Which is a posture, and which is results oriented?

876 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:11:50pm

Can we please not derail this important topic by reducing it to abortion?

877 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:12:27pm

re: #740 ukase

And yes, Charles, is some yahoo in the Ozarks wants to have their kids learn that the earth was created in 7 days 6000 years ago, let 'em. That way they'll stay happy in their little backwater and leave the rest of us alone.

I agree It is difficult to measure the effect of Soc-con positions or beliefs of candidates from earlier times where the social context was so different.

The remainder of comment, which I quote above, is playing with fire, however. You are suggesting that we should just allow religious beliefs to infiltrate our public schools. That is an intrusion that I do not want to see happen, and I fully support Charles in his efforts to exposed such things to the light of day, so that we do not one day wake up with public schools teaching Christian orthodoxy while being funded with our tax dollars and wonder how it happened.

878 rightsideup  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:12:39pm

re: #766 mich-again

Yes, that's like assuring someone that you're honest. Honest people don't need to advertise.

879 runrabbitrun  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:12:45pm

The left has already learnt that their fringe far-leftist moonbat vote (code pink, anarchists, unilateral disarmament types) had to be sacrificed and strove to find compatible coalitions of other voters to make up for that deficit in their natural base.

Dems did that partly by some deceitful movements to the center after primaries; i.e, total re-frames of their candidate's positions (aided by the MSM's complicity). If the right found that very far-right and single issue voters numbers were as small as the Dems' fringe base, it might be an opportunity to find common cause with more moderates. But there is a big difference between family values issues and violating the establishment clause, as in creationism and denial of abortion for serious health reasons in early trimesters. Marriage itself involves many social, legal and religious factors, and these cannot be reduced to simple slogaqns or conflated into one simple issue.

880 Forever  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:13:25pm

Honestly, with Sarah Palin the GOP is not going to change enough and will not win the vote of the independents. That, I think also diminished McCain's chances this election. Especially many independent women and McCainocrats left the boat when Palin joined it.

881 FootLoose  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:13:39pm

I don't see how this election was a referendum on a social conservative agenda. Obama basically supported infanticide, but the McCain campaign spent very little time on the issue. Obama's second amendment record was terrible, Palin is a hunter, this again was never much of an issue. Obama carried very blue California, but there the voters turned down homosexual marriage. The election was a referendum on an unpopular president, a scary economy, and race.

882 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:13:40pm

re: #870 cliffster

Because he was a Federalist, people didn't think he was an idiot? :^) That was the original question - the press said he was stupid constantly, just like they did with Bush, except that people didn't believe it. And with Bush, they did.

Because Federalism doesn't create cognitive dissonance with his stance on Freedom and liberty. The current So-con agenda is about controlling rather than extending freedom.

883 formercorpsman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:13:44pm

For what it is worth, before joining in, I read this:

This argument makes sense to us, and we’ve been holding forth in our comments on this very topic. If the GOP decides to go in the Bobby Jindal direction (fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights), it will be committing political suicide. As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win.

I'll head home now.

884 dmjung  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:14:23pm

re: #745 Dan G.

A curious athiest (me) would like to know if anyone actually uses that version instead of the one commissioned by a monarch...

I don't know of anyone who uses either and I'm surrounded by various versions throughout the week and especially on Saturdays and Sundays.

885 cliffster  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:14:31pm

re: #876 Sharmuta

Can we please not derail this important topic by reducing it to abortion?

Right. Abortion is a totally different topic from gay marriage. You can easily not consider yourself a social conservative but be pro life.

886 iWatas  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:14:45pm

Frum is dead wrong. He is an beltway conservative who cringes at the entire concept of a Rugged Individualist, and he somehow thinks that personality and charisma have no part in he future of the Republican party. If we followed his advice, the party would withdraw to the CATO Institute and REASON magazine.

Palin is popular for EXCELLENT reasons. She is dynamic, successful, and popular. She refuses to bend under pressure. Her instincts are very good. She has "it". Nobody else on the national scene comes close.

In the next 2-3 years, watch Sarah Palin become much more au fait with economic and foreign-policy issues, and (I very much hope) our nominee in 2012.

887 cliffster  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:15:11pm

re: #882 Thanos

Because Federalism doesn't create cognitive dissonance with his stance on Freedom and liberty. The current So-con agenda is about controlling rather than extending freedom.

gotcha.

888 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:15:27pm

re: #862 formercorpsman

No, I say bring it on. Maybe we can discuss California's Prop 4 which DID NOT pass too. It was concerning Parental Notification within 48 hrs before a minor got an abortion.

889 Dead Sea Squirrel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:15:32pm

re: #749 Charles

Yep, it passed. A bad law, promoted by bad people, with a campaign of blatant fear-mongering. I voted against it. Amending the Constitution is exactly the wrong way to promote social issues.

But isn't your argument that social conservative issues like this are politically suicidal, rather than morally wrong? Gay marriage was banned in three states yesterday, during this liberal tidal wave of an election. Right or wrong, as a pragmatic issue, opposing gay marriage is hardly a politically suicidal stance. Even Obama claims to oppose it.

I think "social conservatism" is a sloppy term that includes a grab bag of issues, some of which resonate well with a majority of Americans, some of which do not, and some of which really don't ever make it onto the national stage, and are therefore straw men in this argument. (Where is the "creationist" plank in any political platform? Or lobbyists for putting it there, threatening to leave the Republican party if it isn't?) Abortion is, again, a different thing. It's an absolute issue for me. (If aborting an unborn child is not killing a human being, then I don't see how it is wrong at all, for any reason, at any stage. But most people are queasy with it, and more so the nearer to full term the fetus is, and more so the more flippant the reason for allowing it is, but if the fetus is not really a human, there should be no such queasiness.) Anyway, as a political issue, my sense is that not many people reject a candidate they otherwise like if that candidate also happens to hold a firm, sincere, clearly-articulated pro-life position.

Main point: it is not accurate or helpful to lump all these items together under one category and make broad statements about their political utility, let alone their moral standing.

890 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:16:14pm

Charles said a few weeks ago (or whenever it was) that LGF isn't a platform for the formation of Republican Party policy (or however he put it.)

LGF isn't KOSKids.

The real decisions on all this need to happen in Republican forums.

Ditching the base won't be an option.

Republicans won 7 out of the last 10 Presidential elections before 2008.

Losing one isn't the end of the world (or the Republican Party.)

891 debutaunt  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:16:18pm

re: #773 tedzilla99

I don't know about his upbringing, but Herman Cain would be a genius pick by the GOP. Businessman, excellent speaker, down to earth, smart as hell, polite but strong on his opinions. If they are smart, they will keep Palin in the loop and she will be president in 2012 easily.

However, a true conservative of any ethnicity could destroy Obama in an election or debate - you see, when you're a senator, you are trying to get along with everyone, so you don't want to piss someone off in June in case you need their vote on your issue in July. A conservative can list off their principles and have nothing to equivocate on. The problem with McCain is that he made his reputation by screwing over his party in order to appear to be the maverick and above the politics. People want to vote for a strong leader, and he is nothing of the sort. Obama isn't, but with no clear alternative, they went with history and guilt and the front-runner. It's that simple.

Cain knows what capitalism is all about - great choice!

892 shiplord kirel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:16:43pm

re: #570 medaura18586

You do have to be quite a fundamentalist to be against abortion.


Quite wrong:
Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League
Homepage
Feminists for Life

893 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:16:54pm

re: #885 cliffster

Despite what some in the MSM and BSM might tell you. Prop 8 was not AGAINST gay marriage. It was FOR defining marriage as between one man and one woman.

894 bosforus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:16:55pm

Does Affirmative Action count as social conservatism? Because if so, one more log for the fire:
Nebraska Bans Affirmative Action
[Link: jurist.law.pitt.edu...]

A ballot measure to prohibit governmental agencies from discriminating or granting preferences on the basis of race and sex [JURIST news archive] appeared to win approval from Nebraska voters Tuesday, while the outcome of a similar proposal in Colorado remained unclear midday Wednesday. In Nebraska, Initiated Measure 424 [PDF text] would amend the state constitution to prohibit the state and its subdivisions, including public universities, "from discriminating against, or granting preferential treatment to, individuals or groups based upon race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in operating public employment, education or contracting," with certain exceptions.
895 lennysquiggy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:17:25pm

So who is going to define this? I'm not prepared to muddle through 2, 4, 6 or 8 years of this marxist crap to consisently find out that we have no idea who we are or what we stand for. I think it's time for a manifesto from Limbaugh.

I'm for small government and strong defense and I want it outlined in a way that even the dumbest moonbat can understand.

And, yes, I will do this myself if nobody else does.

896 nyc redneck  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:17:41pm

re: #856 WrathofG-d

Dang, I'm getting ignored so much around here I think I'm back with the family.

LOL

897 medaura18586  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:18:13pm

re: #869 Adina in Judea

If you don't think it's human (with individual human DNA and the properties of a living entity), then what do you think it is?

I can pull a hair out of my head, and it contains my DNA. Is it a human being?

898 JarHeadLifer  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:18:20pm

re: #643 Adina in Judea

Obama not only had a $600K war chest, but he also had at least equal that in the in-kind contributions from the likes of...

Letterman, Leno, Maher, Stewart, Oprah, The View, NBC, CBS, ABC...

I hate to beat the dead horse, but Jesus, it's laying if my living room every freakin' night. Someone mentioned earlier about wanting Obama to succeed for the country or fail for our chances in '12. I would say that it doesn't matter how he does - succeed or failure. It just doesn't. Whatever the actual results of his administration will be, it will be portrayed in every single entertainment venue as the best thing to happen to America since the ending of the civil war.

Barring some unforeseen disaster of near-biblical proportion that can be laid at Obama's feet (another terror attack - God forbid!), Obama will be with us for the next 8 years - and only 8 if we're lucky!

899 sawblade88  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:18:22pm

There’s a lot that went wrong. Here are a couple points I haven’t seen; not that I’ve read all the posts today.

The donks are a big tent party. It’s not ideological – they welcome a lot of small issue groups that would be minor parties in a parliamentary system. If group X will sign up as dems, the party will add their pet issue – and all the dems support group X causes, at least in word. There are two main issues that unite dems – abortion and hatred of Bush. They are willing to compromise just about everything else. They even accept those with an aversion to abortion, but it’s not a discussable issue. Their overriding desire: power; to get power, they will do or say almost anything. No one really believes that they mean what they say.

The Republicans have been ideologically narrower, with litmus tests for the candidates. Problem is, there isn’t just one test, but several, and each is important to some group. We got McCain, not as the best candidate, but the least offensive to the most tests. Palin – well, there has been a lot of griping about lots of things. We are never going to get two people who will meet all the tests from every direction.

To return to power, the Reps have to change a bit. We can and should have some core principles, as has been articulated elsewhere – small government, fiscal responsibility, personal integrity, among others. We have to avoid the ones that cause people to think the republicans are narrow. It would help to have a good spokesperson to articulate the principles and lead.

Then we have to unite around that core, and agree to disagree about the others. To use a concept from theology, adiaphora: matters which are neither morally mandated nor morally forbidden. In Christianity these are matters not essential to faith, on which good Christians may differ. We can’t say “I won’t support ___ because of his stand on ___.”

The problem isn’t to win the republicans, but rather the independents. The internecine battles over things that seem incidental turn off independents. Keep the list of principles short and consistent, maintain integrity, welcome dissent on other points, and don’t be afraid to point out the real flaws of the dems.

The MSM is another problem. As long as it’s a wing of the Democrat party, it’s hopeless, but there are alternatives. In a short while, I expect them to start investigating the party in power. Heck, they even started in on Clinton.

The American public isn’t stupid, despite recent evidence to the contrary. There can be a return to power. If the dems govern to the far left, they will get the blame for the mess that results.

900 soniq95  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:19:29pm

1) Our candidate spoke like the early mechanical voices of the 1980's and inspired no one. I'd be half the people that voted for McCain were really voting against Obama

2) Our choice was between a fill blown statist, and a statist-lite. No one can seriously call McCain a conservative

3) We need Gringrich like individual (or the real thing) to return the Republicans to advoates of small government

4) If not #3, we at least need to more away from statism and towards Libertarianism, albeit not the extreme 3 employees in the Federal government brand of Libertarianism

5) The choice is simple, Freedom of Equality; pick one

901 yesandno  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:19:51pm

I still remember remarking at the time...and I believe here as well a couple of weeks ago...that when I went to the Obama rally, I was stunned at the audience. The Black population was not more the 10% or so. There were some hippies and environmentalists, a lot of kids. But I would think that 40%+ were white middle class adults that probably graduated HS in the late 1960's, early 1970's. These might have been war protesters at the time or civil rights workers, but now had matured, had succeeded in life (their clothing attested to that) and they were there to see the the fulfillment of their dream...that racial discrimination be scrubbed from the American political scene. And then everyone could live happily ever after.


More then what McCain did or didn't do...this was a voting block that probably changed the direction of the next four years. They were voting on their liberal sense of fairness and equality. I am not sure how one defeats that...

Strange thing is in all the hope and change stuff carried over to other races, and then they voted in the same old, same old, blinded by color as they were. They were not color blind at all...

902 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:19:52pm

Well, I got stuffs to do, so I am gonna split. But first, a few relevant quotes from a REAL Conservative.

-Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

-When you say "radical right" today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party away from the Republican Party, and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye.

-On religious issues there can be little or no compromise. There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C" and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."

903 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:20:35pm

re: #897 medaura18586

re: #869 Adina in Judea

If you don't think it's human (with individual human DNA and the properties of a living entity), then what do you think it is?

I can pull a hair out of my head, and it contains my DNA. Is it a human being?

It doesn't meet the criteria I set in my post.

Your hair does NOT have individual human DNA and it does NOT have the properties of a living entity.

Did you defy my criteria on purpose or didn't you notice what I'd written?

904 bkgodfrey  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:20:37pm

I disagree with the premise that social conservatism was shot down in a referendum yesterday. In both California and Florida, two states that Obama took, voted to ban gay marriage.

Where conservatism was on the ballot, it won.

905 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:21:21pm

re: #890 Adina in Judea

The real decisions on all this need to happen in Republican forums.

I absolutely disagree. The discussion needs to happen at local republican political meetings. The power to alter the platforms of the various state parties and of the national party comes from the rank and file of party membership. Not involved? Then you're not going to make a difference where it matters.

906 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:21:21pm
fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights marriage

This is me. Here I stand. I can do no other.

If the Party decides otherwise, so be it. If the Party decides to stay this way, so be it.

I am not a Party. I am an individual with core beliefs. They remain core. I remain true to them. This is my solemn vow.

As I said, here I stand.

907 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:21:24pm

re: #798 HoosierHoops

GMTA
2000 years ago they fed Christians to the Lions...Now they are afraid of becoming victims in the future..oh boy..I think they are evolving from victimhood not evolving to it...
or something like that...

Actually, the Christians being fed to the lions bolstered Christianity, as anyone who knows the history understands. Christianity may never have risen to prominence if Romans spectators hadn't been exposed to the courage in the face of grisly death that those early Christians demonstrated. And after the Christians took over they oppressed the pagans and even took to burning people who were even suspected of paganism. The history of the church is fraught with horror, intolerance and cruelty that seemed to forget it's own roots. I don't see how a stance of victimhood by non-Christains withstood all that, except through a very selective doctoring of it's history to the masses.

908 Republican Party Reptile  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:21:39pm

Charles, like others have stated I don't see this election as a defeat for "social conservatives". To me, it almost looks more like dissatisfaction with a Republican Party that has spent the last 20 years slowly drifting towards the left and becoming little more than Junior Democrats. So you advocate becoming MORE like them? I'm not saying we need to be the party of the new Inquisition, but maybe what people want is a return to more conservative values, not less conservative.

BTW Behemoth (post 866) Rush also said that Prop 8 and the similar bill in Florida were defeated, by and large, by blacks (exit polls had it 70-30 against among black voters). Don't you think it's a sign that people are willing to endorse conservative values?

909 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:21:58pm

re: #893 WrathofG-d

Despite what some in the MSM and BSM might tell you. Prop 8 was not AGAINST gay marriage. It was FOR defining marriage as between one man and one woman.

It was for the tyranny of the masses against the individual. It used to be legal until 382 BC, when Christian Tyrants outlawed it. Of course back then we still followed the "divine right of kings". Something our constitution very specifically opposes.

910 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:21:58pm

re: #851 WrathofG-d

I don't think we are supposed to discuss abortion here...but my answer is "only if the Gov funds other medical procedures, and not if they do not"

re: #876 Sharmuta

Can we please not derail this important topic by reducing it to abortion?

Charles has said in the past that he does not mind this topic being discussed so long as it remains civil, people back their thoughts with facts and logic, and that it does not become a hateful flame war. That said, he keeps the banning stick very close while this topic is discussed. Then again, this topic is above my pay grade.

911 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:22:07pm

I am not for sale.

912 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:22:19pm

re: #890 Adina in Judea

Charles said a few weeks ago (or whenever it was) that LGF isn't a platform for the formation of Republican Party policy (or however he put it.)

LGF isn't KOSKids.

The real decisions on all this need to happen in Republican forums.

Ditching the base won't be an option.

Republicans won 7 out of the last 10 Presidential elections before 2008.

Losing one isn't the end of the world (or the Republican Party.)

Discussion of the Republican platform is the topic on this thread though.

913 nyc redneck  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:22:35pm

re: #906 mama winger

This is me. Here I stand. I can do no other.

If the Party decides otherwise, so be it. If the Party decides to stay this way, so be it.

I am not a Party. I am an individual with core beliefs. They remain core. I remain true to them. This is my solemn vow.

As I said, here I stand.

i love you mama winger.

914 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:23:00pm

BTW - I have not read any of the comments. I do not need to. I know where I am and who I am.

915 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:23:02pm
916 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:23:08pm

re: #910 David IV of Georgia

Its above your gay parade? Very topical!

917 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:23:24pm

re: #471 Lorenska

From your lips to God's ears...I certainly intend to fight with every fiber of my being...my worry is the Peggys of the world, who WANT the govt to take care of them, those that voted Obama in because they're just sure he's going to heal the earth and fix the oceans and pay their mortgages and make that mean ol' Iran be nice to us...and all we have to do is give him all the power and all our faith and oh yeah, all our money. I hope against hope that I'm just being cynical and that I'm wrong, I truly do.

How do we stop this cycle of insanity?

We need to get way back to the origin of our country, i.e. the Declaration of Independence, where rights were articulated as given to us (as individuals) by our creator, not the state. Read John Locke or Adam Smith's philosophies.

Our forefathers believed that all human beings were born with inalienable rights. Life, liberty and the pursuit of property (which was changed to 'happiness' by Franklin I think).

In all of history, we see that man has owned other men (lords and serfs) by the grace of their government benefactors.

Do we want to live in freedom or suffrage?

918 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:23:29pm

re: #902 Slumbering Behemoth

Barry was a prophet.

919 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:23:30pm

re: #913 nyc redneck

I adore you, nyc.

920 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:24:12pm

re: #898 JarHeadLifer

Whatever the actual results of his administration will be, it will be portrayed in every single entertainment venue as the best thing to happen to America since the ending of the civil war.

Exactly the opposite of what they did to Bush - yeah, I know.

When that lady figures out that Obama not only doesn't pay HER mortgage and gas bill but that he doesn't pay his RELATIVES' $12 per year rent bills - they will eventually figure out that all this happiness is only skin deep (literally.)

921 Land Shark  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:24:30pm

Charles said:

"As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win."

I respectfully disagree, Charles. This election was never about anything substantive because the mainstream media was completely in the tank for Obama. They covered up and/or downplayed Obama's numerous associations with nefarious people and never questioned his constant lies. It was all about the hip charismatic guy never having to answer the tough questions. McCain/Palin had mostly negative coverage while Obama's was mostly positive. Look at all the time they spent on Troopergate vs. Obama's illegal fund raising. Or associations with ACORN and other groups involved in questionable voter registrations. Throw in the well timed economic crisis and the Republicans had no shot. Most people who voted for Obama have little idea of what he's really like.

It didn't help our candidate isn't a real conservative anyway. I think if it wasn't for Sarah Palin the drubbing would have been worst.

A poster above mentioned Conservatives have to get back to promoting individual rights and I agree. I believe that's our strength and the strength of Reagan's appeal, along with the man's amazing personality and ability to talk to, and not down to, people. I think that re-branding or changing our core principles isn't necessary, we just need a political party that sticks by them.

922 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:24:57pm

re: #909 Thanos

There is an argument there, but if so, where does it stop? If we are never going to discriminate, then are we to allow every "minority" to do whatever they want? Beastial-Americans, Pologimist-Americans, LSD-Americans, Incenst-Americans? etc?

I'm asking this question seriously because it is actually an issue I cannot fully figure out where I stand.

923 JarHeadLifer  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:25:03pm

re: #833 Thanos

They did use those attacks against Reagan. And I get your point - Reagan was one of the most masterful communicators in the 20th century. Bush, well he wasn't. But, the fact of the matter is that Reagan didn't come close nightly whooping that Bush and the conservatives/republicans take every hour of every day - at home and abroad. The attacks are entirely ubiquitous and permeate every aspect of our society.

I have no idea how to combat this new, embolden leftist movement - but I'm all ears and willing to fight to the end!

924 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:25:06pm

re: #910 David IV of Georgia

I know- I just think the overall topic concerns more than abortion.

925 Dead Sea Squirrel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:25:10pm

re: #913 nyc redneck

i love you mama winger.

Back off; she's mine!

926 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:25:24pm

re: #905 Sharmuta

The discussion needs to happen at local republican political meetings. The power to alter the platforms of the various state parties and of the national party comes from the rank and file of party membership. Not involved? Then you're not going to make a difference where it matters.

Then you agree with my post that none of this will be solved on LGF.

Charles has said this, too.

927 nyc redneck  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:25:30pm

re: #915 ploome hineni

I am fine, thanks

but very unhappy with the result of this election

every vp running mate is chosen because they bring something lacking to the ticket

McCain didn;t have the will to do what had to be done to win

/and of course the overwhelimg support from the MSM and money collected, from who knows where

the fix was in, and McCain was afraid to be called racist, but he was anyway

it was a debacle

and very frustrating.
i woke up so depressed.
i'm good now. relieved actually.
getting ready to face what is coming.

928 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:25:46pm

re: #925 Dead Sea Squirrel

Back off; she's mine!

:)

Hiya there you wild orthodox man you :)

929 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:25:47pm

re: #916 WrathofG-d

Its above your gay parade? Very topical!

When I reread my post, that is what I saw too—although I had written it. Weird.

930 jainphx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:25:53pm

re: #723 onepistoffyid

Palin didn't lose the election MCCain lost the election. If McCain was one tenth the conservative Palin was, the out come could have been different.

931 gunjam  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:25:53pm
As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win.

Charles, let me guess: you were not a math major?

In your own ultra-blue state of Mexifornia yesterday, some 1.5 million Obama-supporters voted YES on Prop 8 (which passed, as you know).

If that is a 'defeat' for social conservatism, I want more of them!

932 capitalist piglet  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:26:26pm

re: #826 DeafDog

Obama on reparations (Honolulu Star Bulletin, 7/28/08):

"I personally would want to see our tragic history, or the tragic elements of our history, acknowledged," the Democratic presidential hopeful said.

"I consistently believe that when it comes to whether it's Native Americans or African-American issues or reparations, the most important thing for the U.S. government to do is not just offer words, but offer deeds."

933 nyc redneck  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:26:43pm

re: #925 Dead Sea Squirrel

Back off; she's mine!

well i don't love her quite that way, considering i'm not gay.
lol

934 Zimriel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:26:48pm

Charles, we are agreed that Jindal is radioactive.

But the Left has a social agenda too. All the little shibboleths that White People Like - "please recycle", "fair trade", "low carbon footprint" etc - are invasive, debatable in effect, and of dubious morality.

The Left also has its religious beliefs; we can include global warming, the non-hereditability of intelligence, the unimportance of human life.

These beliefs are inculated by the cult of Gramschi, which lives in our schools (both public and mainline-Protestant).

Frum, by taking on abortion and "the environment" (read: climate), is saying that if Gramschi-cult memes get too strong in our society, then conservatives should roll over and say "me too". That worked wonders for conservatives from 1929 to 1979.

I suppose one might retort that Goldwater didn't win either. But, at least Goldwater's thought gave us Reagan and Gingrich eventually. Frum's capitulationism isn't going to give us anybody but a latter-day Nixon or Dubya; a man who is in office basically because there's no-one better around, a man who has no moorings, easy prey to his own demons (Nixon) or to the demons of his advisors (Dubya).

I recommend instead that the Republicans retrench as a regional party. Thence they can force the issue of federalism vis-a-vis DC, in coalition with other Republican states.

935 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:27:02pm

re: #917 rightymouse

How do we stop this cycle of insanity?

We need to get way back to the origin of our country, i.e. the Declaration of Independence, where rights were articulated as given to us (as individuals) by our creator, not the state. Read John Locke or Adam Smith's philosophies.

Our forefathers believed that all human beings were born with inalienable rights. Life, liberty and the pursuit of property (which was changed to 'happiness' by Franklin I think).

In all of history, we see that man has owned other men (lords and serfs) by the grace of their government benefactors.

Do we want to live in freedom or suffrage?

Read Edmund Burke ;-)>

936 Johnny_Bluejeans  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:27:11pm

Long time reader, first time poster.

We don't need to abandon our social conservatism. We need candidates who can communicate to the American people that global warming is BS and here's why, scientifically. Abortion is wrong and here's why. Fiscal conservatism kicks ass and here's why. By 2010 and 2012 a strong fiscal conservative will be like a breath of fresh air compared to the debauchery about to go down in DC. Now if we can just find some in the GOP. . .

937 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:28:01pm

re: #926 Adina in Judea

Then you agree with my post that none of this will be solved on LGF.

Charles has said this, too.

And Charles is right. As wonderful as LGF is, as wonderful as the blogosphere is- this will never replace involvement in the real nuts and bolts of party politics, though it is wonderful we have a platform for working out our own thoughts and ideas and perhaps to inspire others. It's why I've advocated involvement for months now.

938 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:28:42pm

re: #903 Adina in Judea


Your hair does NOT have individual human DNA and it does NOT have the properties of a living entity.

Cheek cells from inside your mouth - they are alive, and have individual human DNA.

939 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:28:56pm

re: #936 Johnny_Bluejeans

Long time reader, first time poster.

We don't need to abandon our social conservatism. We need candidates who can communicate to the American people that global warming is BS and here's why, scientifically. Abortion is wrong and here's why. Fiscal conservatism kicks ass and here's why. By 2010 and 2012 a strong fiscal conservative will be like a breath of fresh air compared to the debauchery about to go down in DC. Now if we can just find some in the GOP. . .

Wonderful first post!

And may I suggest a rising star: Representative Paul Ryan, 1st Congressional District, Wisconsin.

He is all of the above. And more.

940 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:29:01pm
941 Forever  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:29:23pm

re: #881 FootLoose

I don't see how this election was a referendum on a social conservative agenda. Obama basically supported infanticide, but the McCain campaign spent very little time on the issue. Obama's second amendment record was terrible, Palin is a hunter, this again was never much of an issue. Obama carried very blue California, but there the voters turned down homosexual marriage. The election was a referendum on an unpopular president, a scary economy, and race.

Your last sentence is so true. Personally I believe it all comes down to this too!

942 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:29:39pm

re: #926 Adina in Judea

Then you agree with my post that none of this will be solved on LGF.

Charles has said this, too.

What have we ever discussed on LGF that would carry over and solve anything in the world? Islamic terrorism? Soviets invading Georgia? Palis raising hell? Cars burning in France? The issues won't be resolved, but they will be discussed and hopefully people walk away exposed to different perspectives.

943 boogereatinmoron  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:29:46pm

A Republican Party without the religious right or whatever you care to call them could not win much of anything. On the other hand, the GOP can not let it's agenda be driven by evangelicals. Something will have to be worked out and it is going need a great leader. Hey, maybe we need a great leader. Lets get one that can give a speech please. I nominate Tony Blair.

944 yesandno  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:29:46pm

re: #899 sawblade88

There’s a lot that went wrong. Here are a couple points I haven’t seen; not that I’ve read all the posts today.

The donks are a big tent party. It’s not ideological – they welcome a lot of small issue groups that would be minor parties in a parliamentary system. If group X will sign up as dems, the party will add their pet issue – and all the dems support group X causes, at least in word. There are two main issues that unite dems – abortion and hatred of Bush. They are willing to compromise just about everything else. They even accept those with an aversion to abortion, but it’s not a discussable issue. Their overriding desire: power; to get power, they will do or say almost anything. No one really believes that they mean what they say.

The Republicans have been ideologically narrower, with litmus tests for the candidates. Problem is, there isn’t just one test, but several, and each is important to some group. We got McCain, not as the best candidate, but the least offensive to the most tests. Palin – well, there has been a lot of griping about lots of things. We are never going to get two people who will meet all the tests from every direction.

To return to power, the Reps have to change a bit. We can and should have some core principles, as has been articulated elsewhere – small government, fiscal responsibility, personal integrity, among others. We have to avoid the ones that cause people to think the republicans are narrow. It would help to have a good spokesperson to articulate the principles and lead.

Then we have to unite around that core, and agree to disagree about the others. To use a concept from theology, adiaphora: matters which are neither morally mandated nor morally forbidden. In Christianity these are matters not essential to faith, on which good Christians may differ. We can’t say “I won’t support ___ because of his stand on ___.”

The problem isn’t to win the republicans, but rather the independents. The internecine battles over things that seem incidental turn off independents. Keep the list of principles short and consistent, maintain integrity, welcome dissent on other points, and don’t be afraid to point out the real flaws of the Dem's.

The MSM is another problem. As long as it’s a wing of the Democrat party, it’s hopeless, but there are alternatives. In a short while, I expect them to start investigating the party in power. Heck, they even started in on Clinton.

The American public isn’t stupid, despite recent evidence to the contrary. There can be a return to power. If the dems govern to the far left, they will get the blame for the mess that results.

The Dem's are ideological. Doesn't matter if the umbrella covers the earth, they have a vision, a point of view.

Being partisan is not wrong...advocate your position. Republicans don't do this because they don't want to be preachy. The Dem's do it all the time and keep campaigning for their positions constantly. And we get so used to it all, it becomes just "natural" so that people like you don't see it as ideology at all...

945 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:29:50pm

re: #940 ploome hineni

hiya ploome

bad day at black rock

946 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:30:01pm

re: #924 Sharmuta

I know- I just think the overall topic concerns more than abortion.

I just wanted to warn people who will persist that they better mind their P's and Q's while on this topic.

947 J.S.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:30:02pm

re: #794 Charles

I don't think the issue of "race" is dead either -- it will live on and on and on through the MSM -- the MSM was successful in their campaign to have Obama elected, in part due to the MSM shutting down all criticism by playing the race card against Obama's critics -- Thus, throughout obama's presidency, this same policy will be continued by the MSM. It's "in the works"... Act 2, scene 1 will resume come Jan. 2009..

948 vegasjew  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:30:51pm

abortion is a nonsense issue
both parties have failed us trying to carve up a
guaranteed slice of the electorate.Neither side wanted to really work on the problem and gamble for the whole pie.
Repubs had all levers of govt and never did a thing to stop it.
Dems try to make hysterical 50 yr old libs thinking their slutty daughters will be in the alley with a hangar.
A sane society would appt 10 D's and 10 R's
and try to see how to slow the slaughter of the unborn.
I have 4 daughters including 3 teenage ones,this issue is near and dear to me. If one of my daughters
told me she was pregnant,I would lovingly try to share my joy of the life inside her. I would volunteer
to help financially ,and to help in bringing that child into a loving world. What if she didnt talk to me,and just aborted it ,what could I do? What could I do if she said I am starting a job,it was a mistake,I dont even like this guy,what could I do Nothing
THE ZOHAR shemot 3b three types of people
who hide the divine light ,the third inteferes with life in the womb for it is my handiwork .I believe abortion is a serious thing in society,but railing
about it non-negotiable terms is a killer with women.
We have to stop it,and yet I am sure that I am to the right of most people here on the issue.

949 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:30:52pm

re: #922 WrathofG-d

There is an argument there, but if so, where does it stop? If we are never going to discriminate, then are we to allow every "minority" to do whatever they want? Beastial-Americans, Pologimist-Americans, LSD-Americans, Incenst-Americans? etc?

I'm asking this question seriously because it is actually an issue I cannot fully figure out where I stand.

So you deserve a serious answer. I think you draw the line where the practice harms others, or where the practice involves minors or others not able to give adult consent (like those beasties, and I won't tell the joke about sheep, Texans, and boots...) Argument could be made as well that someone on Acid/other drugs can be a danger to society at large, but at some point it would be a stretch. (e.g. if someoone who is adult drops acid in their own home and doesn't go out driving, etc.)

950 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:31:05pm
951 Florida Lady  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:31:10pm

re: #937 Sharmuta

And Charles is right. As wonderful as LGF is, as wonderful as the blogosphere is- this will never replace involvement in the real nuts and bolts of party politics, though it is wonderful we have a platform for working out our own thoughts and ideas and perhaps to inspire others. It's why I've advocated involvement for months now.

And Sharmuta, you - along with many others on this site - have inspired me & helped me to learn to articulate my political beliefs.

Thank you, Charles. LGF has been a godsend to me.

952 SaneInMN  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:31:24pm

re: #849 unrealizedviewpoint

Well, the idiot decimated Al-Qaeda, protected us from another attack, and attempted to pass legislation that would have headed off the current financial crisis that we find ourselves in. He made plenty of mistakes and spend too much money, but I'll take that "idiot" over what we have to look forward to for the next four years.

BTW, funny how a post such as this brings out the BDS faction of LGF. Somehow, I doubt they are ever with us when the chips are down.

953 Hucbald  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:31:32pm

"That’s a future that leaves little room for Sarah Palin – but the only hope for a Republican recovery."

Fuck you, Frum.

954 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:31:34pm

re: #938 Jimmah

re: #903 Adina in Judea

Your hair does NOT have individual human DNA and it does NOT have the properties of a living entity.

Cheek cells from inside your mouth - they are alive, and have individual human DNA.

Cheek cells do NOT have their own individual DNA and they do NOT have the characteristics of a living entity.

I guess my question is really difficult for some.

955 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:32:10pm

re: #950 ploome hineni

I got gas

I can top that. My step brother committed suicide this morning.

956 redvoter  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:32:23pm

re: #686 SixDegrees

People perceive attempts to outlaw abortion, promote teaching of creationism in public schools, legislate on all manner of moral issues such as gay marriage and insurance coverage as attempts to impose religious doctrine through the power of government. This sort of activity is at odds with fundamental American principles, and is explicitly constrained by the Constitution.

The media has framed the debates on these issues. It is ok for liberals to legislate their morality but not conservatives? I don't morality should be legislated to an extreme, but all communities have their standards of decency. Some people see abortion as the taking of a human life, which is protected by the constitution. would you expect them to accept what they see as murder? Creationism in schools is not a part of the Republican platform, or that of most conservatives, relax. And I see nothing wrong with discussing the issue in school so people understand one another. Obama wants to teach sex ed and homosexuality to kindergarteners, is that ok? There is nothing in the constitution which guarantees gay marriage as a right, redefining marriage is not popular with the majority of americans. Who the heck is imposing religous doctrine? the Conservative Supreme court even ruled that gay relations can not be outlawed because it is a privacy issue, the only activism I see is from the left.

Conservatives are getting a bad rap as a bunch of bible thumping zealots. There is that element, just like the dems have their socialist element, but the main focus for conservatives is still Federalism, Fiscal discipline, Strong National Security and yes, Family Values. Funny how Dems needed to run on these principles to get elected to the White House.

957 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:32:34pm

I wholeheartedly reject anyone's claims (especially those that do not hold them) that the Conservative party needs to get rid of their social conservative values.

Are we who hold such so-called values just to accept that we must all be free-wheeling, pot smoking, abortion loving, G-d rejecting, immoral hedonists to be Americans? Are we to accept that we no longer have a voice or party in this country any more? Wouldn't that be exactly what the Democrats would want, and have always wanted?

958 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:32:50pm

re: #937 Sharmuta

And Charles is right. As wonderful as LGF is, as wonderful as the blogosphere is- this will never replace involvement in the real nuts and bolts of party politics, though it is wonderful we have a platform for working out our own thoughts and ideas and perhaps to inspire others. It's why I've advocated involvement for months now.

Hear Hear! Nothing beats involvement at the local or higher level!, but as I said a few posts back; posting does allow you to be exposed to different perspectives from all around the country...and world in some cases.

959 Bill K.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:32:51pm

This is what the Republicans must do to be taken seriously again:

1. Become the party of small government again. For example how long has that complete waste of money, the Department of Education, resisted Republican efforts to abolish it? The last time I checked the DOE had a 60 billion dollar budget! And this is only a small part of vast government waste.

2. Become the party of free enterprise again. I mean laissez-faire capitalism. Start by renouncing that Sarbanes-Oxley abomination to capitalism.

3. Quit pandering to religion. Christian, Jewish and Muslim. Until God appears in the sky overhead, act if if he doesn't exist. Insist religion be entirely a private matter.

4. Leave the abortion issue alone. No one that I have heard of in this country if getting forced abortions. This is a matter between a woman and her doctor.

5. Learn how to fight a war again. George Bush has given war a bad name. We do not fight wars to bring "democracy" to savages. We fight wars to destroy our enemies and then leave them to their fate with the admonition "shape up or we'll be back again". No war should last more than a year or so if we fight properly unless it is against the Islamofacists. Then it shouldn't last more than a month or so.

6. Boldly proclaim that Israel is our friend and stop treating her like a pariah. Israel is a island of civilization in the Mideast.

7. Advocate the destruction of a nuclear Islamic Iran. Not just a bombing of their nuclear facilities but an ousting of the mullahs and a de-Islamification of the country.

960 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:33:52pm

814 Sharmuta 11/05/08 2:58:32 pm reply quote 0

re: #788 Spare O'Lake

And the right wing of the GOP needs to leave their ultra-religious zealotry schtick at home and move to the centre of the political spectrum or else they may as well start a new religious party and advocate for the repeal of both the separation of Church and State and the equal protection clause.

I agree. They should put their money where their mouth is.

No, I think what you mean is, "Hit the Road, Jack." Okay then.

961 Dotcoman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:34:03pm

Quote:

College-educated Americans have come to believe that their money is safe with Democrats – but that their values are under threat from Republicans. And there are more and more of these college-educated Americans all the time.

So the question for the GOP is: Will it pursue them? To do so will involve painful change, on issues ranging from the environment to abortion. And it will involve potentially even more painful changes of style and tone: toward a future that is less overtly religious, less negligent with policy, and less polarizing on social issues. That’s a future that leaves little room for Sarah Palin – but the only hope for a Republican recovery.

Well, of course this is completely upside down and backward. The only reason that college-"educated" Americans believe this crap is that it's what they are brainwashed into believing by an educational system dominated by ex-hippies and other Leftist radicals. There is no rational sense to either the proposition that their money is safe with Democrats or that it's the Republicans who pose a threat to their values.

What is offered above is a prescription for perpetual domination by the Demonrats and the near complete dissolution of the GOP as we know it. Indeed, this election loss is the result of abandoning Social Conservatives, which polls consistently show most Americans to be even in 2008, and not the result of catering to them.

After all, what did the party trot out for our consideration this primary season? We had a suck-up to the Hard Left in McLame, a creepy non-Christian (Mormon) mannequin in Romney, and a big-government pro-abortion RINO in Giuliani. As a token offering to the Christian Conservatives, the GOP trotted out a singularly unappealing sacrificial lamb and lame excuse for a christian, utterly lacking in anything resembling charisma by the name of Mike Huckabee. Even his name sounds unpresidential.

Someone at the highest levels of the GOP appears intent on transforming it into Socialist Lite as a counterpoint to the increasingly Marxist and authoritarian radicalism of the new Democrat party. The proposition being offered seems to be, "Would you like your shackles to be made of kidskin or iron?"

962 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:34:22pm

re: #949 Thanos

Then you are all for polygamy, and same-sex multiple partners, what Kavorkian was doing etc?

963 rightsideup  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:34:29pm

re: #917 rightymouse

Wasn't it Benjamin Franklin who said we need a revolution every two hundred years? Perhaps he figured the Constitution (or its implementation) would be in need of recalibration by that time...

964 jainphx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:34:48pm

re: #761 Walter L. Newton

Victumhood, Maybe if you read the book you would understand from wince I speak.

965 theheat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:34:50pm

After a record 35+ dingdown of my last post about Palin, I've seen what I suspected come to fruition.

McCain lost my vote because I felt his running mate did not share many of the views I felt I shared with McCain. I would vote for a down-the-middle guy, sure, but never a Fundie. And certainly not a Fundie so close to taking the seat of a 70-something year old president.

Either way, I felt like this election gave me the choice of holding my nose and hoping for the best. I felt both candidates, well, pretty much sucked. They each sucked in different ways, but significant ways. But once Fundie was added to the stew, I held my nose, crossed my fingers, and voted for the Other Guy. I'm gritting my teeth and hoping for the best.

So, feel free to ding away again. It matters not - a hundred dings? - but Obama is still president elect. With an overwhelming win by Obama, I'm not the only person that came to this conclusion, if not for different reasons. And, if the GOP thinks they lost because they weren't conservative enough, let them prop another religious whack job up there and see them get trounced again. By all means, make the same mistake twice, and see what the outcome is. The Democrats will thank them for it, and the GOP will have only itself to blame.

Reform, reform, reform, and stop the religious pandering. Once the GOP adopts this within its own party, and cleans house, it will win again.

966 guitarguy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:34:54pm

Charles sez:
"If the GOP decides to go in the Bobby Jindal direction (fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights), it will be committing political suicide. As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win."

AGREED!
Scant hours after Obama was declared the winner, numerous posts appeared (in various blogs) naming Jindal as one of the new faces we can look to in the GOP.
...yet there was never any mention of his beliefs.

"We're sooo pissed that the GOP failed us...We need new blood...Let's grab Bobby Jindal!...He's young, conservative, a minority...Yup, that's good enough!"

Have we learned nothing?...*sigh*...

967 rjschwarz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:35:36pm

Some social issues work well with the voters. Look at the Gay Marriage issues in Florida and California. i think the Social Conservatives should push their agenda at the state level that way, with bills, rather than adding additional issues to the national ticket that might turn some states away from the Republicans.

968 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:35:54pm

re: #957 WrathofG-d

I wholeheartedly reject anyone's claims (especially those that do not hold them) that the Conservative party needs to get rid of their social conservative values.

Are we who hold such so-called values just to accept that we must all be free-wheeling, pot smoking, abortion loving, G-d rejecting, immoral hedonists to be Americans? Are we to accept that we no longer have a voice or party in this country any more? Wouldn't that be exactly what the Democrats would want, and have always wanted?

Upding!

969 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:36:04pm

re: #935 Outrider

Read Edmund Burke ;-)>

You betcha!

970 redvoter  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:36:28pm

re: #749 Charles

Yep, it passed. A bad law, promoted by bad people, with a campaign of blatant fear-mongering. I voted against it. Amending the Constitution is exactly the wrong way to promote social issues.

some voted for it to promote social issues, others voted for it to put a check on judicial activism. i don't like amending the constitution for the sake of wedge issues, but in this case I just might have.

anyways, it was a vote of confidence for conservatism either way. 1) do not redefine traditional marriage and 2) do not legislate from the bench on social issues you don't agree with.

971 J.S.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:37:05pm

re: #955 mama winger

I am so sorry to hear that...my condolences.

972 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:37:26pm

re: #954 Adina in Judea

Cheek cells do NOT have their own individual DNA and they do NOT have the characteristics of a living entity.

I guess my question is really difficult for some.

Whose DNA do they have then?

Don't you know that the term 'living entity' includes such things as individual cells?

973 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:37:52pm
974 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:38:00pm

re: #971 J.S.

I am so sorry to hear that...my condolences.

Thanks. It made a horrible awful day monumentally and disastrously even more horrible.

975 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:38:30pm

re: #968 Outrider

The argument against SC values in the Republican party is simply "Be Democrats that don't tax as much".

I won't accept that.

McCain lost because Bush was a War Loving, Overspending, Tax & Spend Liberal in Conservative clothes.

976 wiffersnapper  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:38:36pm

Mitt in '12!

977 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:38:47pm

re: #965 theheat

After a record 35+ dingdown of my last post about Palin, I've seen what I suspected come to fruition.

McCain lost my vote because I felt his running mate did not share many of the views I felt I shared with McCain. I would vote for a down-the-middle guy, sure, but never a Fundie. And certainly not a Fundie so close to taking the seat of a 70-something year old president.

Either way, I felt like this election gave me the choice of holding my nose and hoping for the best. I felt both candidates, well, pretty much sucked. They each sucked in different ways, but significant ways. But once Fundie was added to the stew, I held my nose, crossed my fingers, and voted for the Other Guy. I'm gritting my teeth and hoping for the best.

So, feel free to ding away again. It matters not - a hundred dings? - but Obama is still president elect. With an overwhelming win by Obama, I'm not the only person that came to this conclusion, if not for different reasons. And, if the GOP thinks they lost because they weren't conservative enough, let them prop another religious whack job up there and see them get trounced again. By all means, make the same mistake twice, and see what the outcome is. The Democrats will thank them for it, and the GOP will have only itself to blame.

Reform, reform, reform, and stop the religious pandering. Once the GOP adopts this within its own party, and cleans house, it will win again.

Done. Because she had religion and you were afraid she MIGHT be influenced. Nice.

978 nyc redneck  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:39:30pm

re: #940 ploome hineni

I love winger also

imagine, voting for someone who soaked up the SHIT coming from the rev Wright and his thugs

because they are afraid of Sarah Palin?

Wright, Flegler and Bill AYers and Rozko are preferable to a woman who will not abort a feotus with Downs Syndrome?

how disgusting

i was so deeply disheartened last night to think that 51% of our fellow citizens voted for this ghastly candidate and his terrible agenda because he promised them free stuff.
(classic "pigeon drop" times square hustle) you always lose.

979 mccainiac503  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:40:05pm

While I agree with Charles that social conservatives have alienated a lot of fiscal conservatives, I disagree about Bobby Jindal. Jindal is a Catholic who converted from Hinduism. 25% of Americans are Catholic, and I would hardly classify Catholic as ultra-right wing evangelical "agents of intolerance". Catholics are mainstream Christians, not Palin's church, Rev. Wright's church or Falwell's church. Father Pfleger is the exception and notice he was quickly repudiated by his archdiocese.

Catholics do believe God created the world and all the universe but that Genesis is not to be taken literally and there is room for science (including evolution). Faith and reason.

So remember, anyone who attacks Jindal based on his religion will be attacking the 25% of Americans who are Catholic.

I am from Louisiana and can tell you that Bobby has a great reputation and record as a fiscal conservative first and foremost. He's a reformer in a state where reform is greatly needed after decades of corrupt Democrat governance.

Bobby can be a bridge between the social conservatives and fiscal conservatives. He is a proven reformer, a Catholic and would make history as an Indian-American.

I'm a fiscal conservative first and foremost who is sick and tired of social conservatives who act as though abortion and gay marriage are all that matters (the economy and runaway federal deficit be damned). We need conservatives who respect life but put federalism, fiscal conservatism, self governance and individual liberty first and foremost.

Don't discount Jindal just yet... but don't discount the concerns of fiscal conservatives who are fed up with social conservatives who refuse to take the blinders off and see why fiscal conservatives are pissed off at the GOP for abandoning any and all fiscal discipline. At least McCain has the cojones to oppose Bush's refusal to match tax cuts with spending cuts and his massive new prescription drug benefit. McCain led the fight on earmarks and reckless spending. But all the soc-cons want to talk about is abortion and gay marriage.

980 yfi  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:40:06pm

So the majority has spoken. Well, we know what's right then don't we? True to our postmodern ethics, we 'obviously' have to 'adjust' our values to fit with the 'new right'. After all, holding to principles based on beliefs which are not shared by 'most' people (might) means one can not be 'relevant' (and therefore 'right'). So let's reinvent ourselves in order to accomodate the lowest common denominator. Winning is so much more important than having principles, isn't it.
Why doesn't your GOP concentrate on being a formidable and challenging opposition rather than cowering under the threat of the 'might makes right' abberation we call 'democracy'?

981 medaura18586  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:40:29pm

re: #934 Zimriel

Cre: #903 Adina in Judea

It doesn't meet the criteria I set in my post.

Your hair does NOT have individual human DNA and it does NOT have the properties of a living entity.

Did you defy my criteria on purpose or didn't you notice what I'd written?

What was your criteria again?

My hair does have individual DNA --mine. You could clone me out of one of my hair strands. What property of a "living entity" does a 4 week embryo have?

My arm has the qualities of a living entity: Many cells there working together. I can sever it. It would hurt like a mother, but I would have not killed a human being. My humanity resides with my consciousness, with my brain. If an embryo doesn't even have a nervous system yet, it is not even remotely close to being eligible for consideration as a human being.

Or did you mean "UNIQUE" as opposed to "INDIVIDUAL" DNA?

In such case,.. well then, every egg any woman passes at ovulation has unique genetic material. Every time a woman gets her menses, she is wasting unique DNA... Killing human beings? I don't think so. That goes for every sperm cell flushed down the toilet after any masturbatory activity too.

This is just not the way you should want to frame this discussion.

982 nyc redneck  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:40:47pm

re: #955 mama winger

I can top that. My step brother committed suicide this morning.

omg, how terrible.

983 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:40:51pm

re: #965 theheat

Once the GOP adopts this within its own party, and cleans house, it will win again.

You think the $600 million from dubious sources had nothing to do with anything?

No wonder you got dinged down.

984 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:41:07pm

re: #960 Joan

Not at all. If you want the republican party to be your vehicle for pushing your religious agenda on others, you're going to have a fight on your hands. If you want to be a republican with strong religious beliefs but adhere to conservative principles, then I'm not going to argue with you.

985 medaura18586  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:41:12pm

re: #981 medaura18586

Errr. Zimriel had nothing to do with that. Sorry

986 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:41:18pm

LOL. Frum's a moby, just like me.

987 rightsideup  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:41:28pm

re: #955 mama winger

You have my deepest sympathies

988 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:42:00pm

re: #957 WrathofG-d

What's wrong with pot smokers?

989 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:42:45pm

re: #5 Old Tanker

I don't buy that line. Reagan was a social conservative when those votes were won...AND a fiscal conservative. Social conservatism has been watered down since the 80's and got us nothing...

In the 70's -- long before gays became accepted as human being -- Reagan campaigned against an initiative to bar them from teaching in California public schools. That's hardly a soccon position. It *is* small c conservative.

990 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:42:49pm

re: #987 rightsideup

You have my deepest sympathies

Thank you. It has been a terrible couple of days all around.

991 FrogMarch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:42:57pm

You know - maybe I'm just exhausted - but all this "soul searching" is bullshit.
Liberals won, conservatives lost. get over it.
and if we try to purify the party by cleaning house... oh wait - we don't need to clean house - we just got our clocks cleaned electorally.
The house is spotless! No one is home!

In this imperfect two party system -- If the Republicans are going to soul search and whine about all the imperfections and crazy people (who is crazy!? it's a hall of mirrors!) We need to remember that liberal proggie leftists act like conservatives to get elected.

Articulation form stellar candidates is what we need most. Where do we find these candidates?

992 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:43:05pm

re: #972 Jimmah

re: #954 Adina in Judea

Cheek cells do NOT have their own individual DNA and they do NOT have the characteristics of a living entity.

I guess my question is really difficult for some.

Whose DNA do they have then?

Don't you know that the term 'living entity' includes such things as individual cells?

Your cheek cells have your DNA in them, not their own individual DNA.

Cheek cells aren't organisms. Only the germs on them are.

My question is still difficult for some.

993 Forever  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:43:24pm

re: #959 Bill K.

This is what the Republicans must do to be taken seriously again:

1. Become the party of small government again. For example how long has that complete waste of money, the Department of Education, resisted Republican efforts to abolish it? The last time I checked the DOE had a 60 billion dollar budget! And this is only a small part of vast government waste.

2. Become the party of free enterprise again. I mean laissez-faire capitalism. Start by renouncing that Sarbanes-Oxley abomination to capitalism.

3. Quit pandering to religion. Christian, Jewish and Muslim. Until God appears in the sky overhead, act if if he doesn't exist. Insist religion be entirely a private matter.

4. Leave the abortion issue alone. No one that I have heard of in this country if getting forced abortions. This is a matter between a woman and her doctor.

5. Learn how to fight a war again. George Bush has given war a bad name. We do not fight wars to bring "democracy" to savages. We fight wars to destroy our enemies and then leave them to their fate with the admonition "shape up or we'll be back again". No war should last more than a year or so if we fight properly unless it is against the Islamofacists. Then it shouldn't last more than a month or so.

6. Boldly proclaim that Israel is our friend and stop treating her like a pariah. Israel is a island of civilization in the Mideast.

7. Advocate the destruction of a nuclear Islamic Iran. Not just a bombing of their nuclear facilities but an ousting of the mullahs and a de-Islamification of the country.

Bill K. - You just exactly represented my views! If the GOP ever, ever, goes along these lines, I think they'll be unbeatable and win election after election by a landslide.

Bill, why don't you run for presidency next time. My vote you got!

994 Wm T Sherman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:43:24pm

Arnold Schwarzenegger: Fiscal conservative, social liberal, Republican governor of California.

His social liberalism is of the "laissez fare" type - minimize government intrusion into the lives of individuals.

He's actually made some progress - for example, reformed the out-of-control worker's comp system that was helping to drive businesses out of the state.

He is currently stymied by the state legislature.

Some of you may think he's sold out. Remember that he did what he said he would do. He attempted to bypass the leislature by putting his conservative agenda out as ballot initiatives, but he lost.

One his pet projects has been ending gerrymandering, by ending redistricting by the legislature in favor of an independent commission (Proposition 11). It's on this year's election and it looks like it may pass.

The worker's comp and redistricting reforms are major.

Is there a lesson here, or is it all peculiar to Arnold and peculiar to California?

995 wong fei hung  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:43:39pm

Back to States Rights. Nobody gets preferential treatment, nobody gets foreign aid and we keep our nose out of other countries business. Our foreign interaction is done through trade. Period. Too many of our best are overseas, putting their lives in harm's way to guard over ingrates. Bring 'em home. Put 'em on the border. Armed.

All the Republican Party needs to stand for is home defense, low taxes, the right to bear arms, the right to free speech and the defense and maintenance of our borders and our rights as provided by the Constitution. No person, no faith, no color, no gender, no sexual preference gets SPECIAL TREATMENT. And if the Constitution doesn't cover it, its up to the States.

How to make a more Republican party? Less government. More individual freedom.

Just my opinion.

-WFH

996 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:44:15pm
997 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:44:55pm

re: #962 WrathofG-d

Then you are all for polygamy, and same-sex multiple partners, what Kavorkian was doing etc?

I didn't say that.

998 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:45:17pm

re: #955 mama winger

Sorry to hear that, mama winger.

My condolences to your family.

999 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:45:42pm

re: #980 yfi

It all depends on what your principles are. I'm a fiscal conservative that feels my rights stop when they infringe upon the rights of others.

1000 redvoter  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:45:43pm

re: #959 Bill K.

This is what the Republicans must do to be taken seriously again:

5. Learn how to fight a war again. George Bush has given war a bad name. We do not fight wars to bring "democracy" to savages. We fight wars to destroy our enemies and then leave them to their fate with the admonition "shape up or we'll be back again". No war should last more than a year or so if we fight properly unless it is against the Islamofacists. Then it shouldn't last more than a month or so.

.

Wrong. If any lesson was learned from Germany after WWI and our aid to Afghanistan agianst the Soviets, war should be followed up with reconstruction of the destroyed county. If you just leave them to their own vices, they will come back as more radical than ever. You either follow the Japan model and rebuild or the Carthage model and wipe out everyone while pouring salt in their soil. I prefer the Japan model. Take them out with overwhelming force and then rebuild.

1001 Dead Sea Squirrel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:45:54pm

re: #959 Bill K.

No one that I have heard of in this country if getting forced abortions.

This happens every day. A great many women are bullied and threatened into having abortions they do not want by their boyfriends, husbands, fathers, pimps.

1002 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:45:56pm

re: #957 WrathofG-d

'abortion loving'? Srsly.

1003 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:46:43pm

re: #997 Thanos

No- he's strawmaning all over the place.

1004 Spirit93  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:47:15pm

re: #448 Charles

I'm really sick and tired of being told I'm "obsessed" about creationism. This is a slimy tactic to try to get me to stop posting about it. You're not welcome to post comments here any more.

I think you are overreacting here.
We are all stressed out.
Maybe this is a good time for a vacation.

1005 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:47:38pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

Soc-cons are killing us in elections by alienating independent moderates AND the fiscal-cons. This has got to stop, and it won't unless republicans get involved in the party and tell these folks to keep their social agenda programs at church because it's not the business in which government is supposed to be addressing.

... and you get what BOTH Australia and New Zealand have got.

NO CHOICE


One can vote for a Conservative Socialist
Or one can vote for a Conservative Socialist

Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee.

In the end the parties merge in the centre and democracy dies with what is in effect one party rule of 'blumange' politics, where professional politicians just trade seats in the chamber with tenure for life. The people get bread and circuses whilst the politicians, their cronies feather their own nests. Eventually one gets a situation where the elites rule as a God given right and an oligopoly based on class emerges.


Don't even think about going there because we are already half way there already and the view is NOT good!

1006 Dead Sea Squirrel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:48:35pm

re: #955 mama winger

I can top that. My step brother committed suicide this morning.

I am so sorry. You are in my prayers. Have been for a long time, actually.

1007 Zimriel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:48:42pm

The Republican aim, long term, is a society which can govern itself excepting in times of national emergency (hurricane, war, Yellowstone exploding etc).

That society is one in which a critical mass of adults have job skills, and in which adults may pair up to start a stable family.

Abortion takes away the "moral hazard" involved in sex. (So does contraception for unmarried adults.) It also cuts the numbers of the upcoming generation.

That forces the aging former generation to import workers from the most convenient location. America is lucky enough to border, uh, Mexico. Be glad we are not France which effectively borders, ulp, Algeria.

Going pro-choice is a long-term loser for Republicans. You will never get a libertarian society from fatherless teenagers and menial immigrants. Theories to the contrary are so dumb, only an editorial page author could entertain them.

And that's just the national-interest argument against abortion (and contraception). Admittedly I haven't heard a coherent moral argument against contraception, so as far as I care Republicans may as well leave that alone. But at least we should stand against abortion on demand, for which there is no moral defense.

1008 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:48:55pm

re: #996 ploome hineni

re: #998 Adina in Judea

Thank you. We are all kind of in a fog right now. Still awaiting the police to tell us where to go and what to do.

1009 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:49:02pm
1010 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:49:12pm

re: #984 Sharmuta

Not at all. If you want the republican party to be your vehicle for pushing your religious agenda on others, you're going to have a fight on your hands. If you want to be a republican with strong religious beliefs but adhere to conservative principles, then I'm not going to argue with you.

One can have strong moral positions and still be an atheist; the two positions are not contrary to one another. We need strong leadership in the party that reins in the fundamentalists and still allows us to keep the traditional institutions in place. There is a place in the Republican party for these individuals, but not controlled by them.

As a strong believer in God myself, I still maintain my religion is private and between God and myself-not to be worn like a badge.

1011 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:49:43pm

re: #1006 Dead Sea Squirrel

I am so sorry. You are in my prayers. Have been for a long time, actually.

{Squirrel}

And you have been in mine. Thank you.

1012 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:49:44pm

re: #988 Sharmuta

um...duuude...I forgot...now dont' bogart that thing...

1013 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:50:25pm

re: #966 guitarguy

Charles sez:
"If the GOP decides to go in the Bobby Jindal direction (fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights), it will be committing political suicide. As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win."

AGREED!
Scant hours after Obama was declared the winner, numerous posts appeared (in various blogs) naming Jindal as one of the new faces we can look to in the GOP.
...yet there was never any mention of his beliefs.

"We're sooo pissed that the GOP failed us...We need new blood...Let's grab Bobby Jindal!...He's young, conservative, a minority...Yup, that's good enough!"

Have we learned nothing?...*sigh*...

Yup it looks as if you are still stuck on stupid by backing the career elite political class. The Beltway burgers who just delivered you a defeat.

Someone who has just had a chastening experience and immediately decides that what is needed is more of the same. Is logically and irrational individual!

1014 Spirit93  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:50:48pm

re: #955 mama winger

very sorry to hear.
{mama winger}

1015 Noam Chumpski  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:50:48pm
As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win.

I have to ask how an almost 50/50 split in the popular vote is in some way a resounding defeat and reason to abandon conservative ideals just so we can run as Democrats?

We run one of the most moderate (or liberal) Republicans in our modern history and give Rudy a prime time slot at our convention and you say that "social conservatism" is dead and should be replaced with Liberal Lite?

Not to be too obvious, but we just did that and it failed.

You never run to the Left of a Liberal... like McCain tried.

1016 Wookieelips  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:51:04pm

re: #830 WrathofG-d

"I'm not a Nazi...Naziism is a specific political party in Germany during the 1930s and 1940s...its 2008 and I'm in America...how could I be a Nazi?"

/

LOLOL :-D

I just want to say how proud I am to be a Lizard today.

Abortion? Creationism? Gay rights? Differering opinions by many different Lizards on these topics, yet I see civil conversation and debate (almost) as far as the eye can see!
Let me tell you a story: I was on a forum for military spouses today and stated that I hoped Obama's past associations with the likes of William Ayers would not be any kind of influence on him and wished him the best.
They
Got
So
Pissed
Off.
I couldn't even have a civil conversation with these women! They were ridiculously rabid about it. Pathetic, especially considering I was wishing 0bama WELL.

But you guys, you guys rock my socks! Lizardddsss!

1017 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:52:16pm
1018 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:52:44pm

re: #1005 Aussie Infidel

... and you get what BOTH Australia and New Zealand have got.

NO CHOICE


One can vote for a Conservative Socialist
Or one can vote for a Socialist Conservative

Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee.

There Fixed!

1019 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:53:18pm

The problem isn't social conservatism, it's with the inneffective leadership of social conservatives. They continually throw out red meat posture issues that guarantee two things: More turnout of social conservatives at the polls, and total failure of of their agenda. Prop 8 might be seen as a victory, but trust me it's not. It'll be in court before the week is out I would wager.

1020 UFO TOFU  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:53:27pm

re: #1004 Spirit93

Maybe this is a good time for a vacation.


Charles has a very good website, I imagine it takes a lot to keep it that way. I agree with you. Charles, throw out some open threads on autopilot for awhile and take some time off. You've certainly earned it.

1021 J.S.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:53:37pm

re: #991 FrogMarch

I also noticed, btw (which I don't think I've read on this thread yet?) McCain was -- (yeah, ok, ageism here) -- cough, cough -- gettin' on in terms of years...and I believe (did the MSM do this deliberately?) the moments when he flubbed up or looked old/tired/exhausted the MSM played those bits over and over and over again. He looked old/tired. (And Palin was made to look, by the MSM and SNL in a joint effort, like an idiot -- they repeated that bogus line about knowing foreign policy cause she could see Russia from her house -- that was repeated over and over and over -- along with having her look to be a religious nut job.) If you really want to lose an election -- just have the MSM proposing 24/7 that the front-runner is ready to succumb any second, keel over, and the runner-up for his replacement is a mindless twit...see how many votes you get...

1022 Joetheplumber  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:54:01pm

Re: #959re: #959 Bill K.

I agree 100% with you. I hope some of the Republican big-wigs are taking notes.

1023 wong fei hung  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:54:28pm

re: #955 mama winger

Condolences...

-WFH

1024 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:54:58pm

re: #1017 ploome hineni

how would Nobama have done, without all that ILLEGAL MONEY and all that media support?

Just kind of an idle question...How would Barack Obama have done if he had been White? Hispanic? Just curious.

1025 jainphx  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:55:26pm

re: #906 mama winger

I'll gladly stand with you.

1026 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:55:33pm

re: #1004 Spirit93

I think you are overreacting here.
We are all stressed out.
Maybe this is a good time for a vacation.

So go on vacation. It's a slimy tactic and Charles should know because he's had to respond to it about a trillion times when once should have been sufficient. But some people are just to thick, or two intellectually dishonest, to let it go.

1027 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:55:36pm

re: #992 Adina in Judea

Your cheek cells have your DNA in them, not their own individual DNA.

Cheek cells aren't organisms. Only the germs on them are.

My question is still difficult for some.

The difficulty is all yours, Adina. Where does your own individual DNA reside, if not in every cell of your body? It doesn't reside anywhere else but there. It has the blueprint to construct another you in it. Cheek cells are organisms in their own right although they don't survive long outside of your body. Which is also true of a human embryo.

What we are really talking about here is awareness, and young undeveloped embryos don't have that, if science is anything to go by.

1028 winston06  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:56:00pm

David Frum is no Conservative at all

1029 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:56:17pm

re: #922 WrathofG-d

There is an argument there, but if so, where does it stop? If we are never going to discriminate, then are we to allow every "minority" to do whatever they want? Beastial-Americans, Pologimist-Americans, LSD-Americans, Incenst-Americans? etc?

I'm asking this question seriously because it is actually an issue I cannot fully figure out where I stand.

Equal Hyphens for ALL PEOPLE!

/It's coming...

1030 winston06  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:56:27pm

re: #11 LSD

he is a RINO

1031 summergurl  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:56:47pm

re: #678 tedzilla99

I didn't read all the comments, but this election was not a referendum on any sort of conservatism. It was a referendum on moderate republicanism vs leftism. The people who want conservatism voted for Palin, not McCain. Those in the middle who bought into the demonization of Wall St and 'greedy' corporations voted Obama. If there had been a true conservative opponent teamed up with Palin, the outcome would be the opposite.

The danger here is to lump conservatives with the GOP. The GOP at the top and especially in DC, is not conservative. There is absolutely no way that a marxist could beat a true conservative - the differences are so stark to not be missed. And a true conservative would not have shied away from hammering Obama on his marxist beliefs and allies, as McCain did. Sure, he and Palin hammered away on Ayers, but that didn't happen till October. And as much was made about 'undecided', I find that to be a misnomer and an exaggeration. People claim undecided just as they claim independence; to make themselves the focus of polling...so nobody was swayed in October one way or the other, I don't believe.

McCain lost because he is not much different than Obama on big government solutions - the bailout disaster - and those who couldn't see a difference went the popular, historic route, as was posited by zombie in that great essay. This election was nothing more than a triumph of style over no style, and grandiose rhetoric over middle-of-the-road pseudo conservatism, with a fawning media in total lockstep on the left. You have misinterpreted the results, Charles - with all due respect! :)

That's what I said! But you said it much better I must admit.

1032 yochanan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:56:55pm

what brought me right wasn't the religious right since I am not a Christian but issues like national defence and everything connected to it such as a strong forign policy.

i am a social libertarian i don't want the gov't in people's bed rooms on any subject. frankly i don't believe it is gov't job to have a opinion on marriage at all. why should a single person pay a different tax rate than a married person.

marriage is a religious question as well as a social question i don't feel i should tell a liberal house of worship what they should do any more than they should be able to tell a conserative house of worship.

as long as you don't by force of goverment to accept either postion.

different religious groups have different views on marriage why should the gov't force any of the other religeons to accept views that are not their own.

frankly i don't think gov't should be in the marriage bus. all together.

1033 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:57:57pm

Individual rights, fiscal responsibility, government transparency.

1034 redvoter  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:58:30pm

re: #907 Salem

Actually, the Christians being fed to the lions bolstered Christianity, as anyone who knows the history understands. Christianity may never have risen to prominence if Romans spectators hadn't been exposed to the courage in the face of grisly death that those early Christians demonstrated. And after the Christians took over they oppressed the pagans and even took to burning people who were even suspected of paganism. The history of the church is fraught with horror, intolerance and cruelty that seemed to forget it's own roots. I don't see how a stance of victimhood by non-Christains withstood all that, except through a very selective doctoring of it's history to the masses.

Christianity rose to prominence because they adopted the ways of the elite ruling class and debated and discussed the issue as elites did with other issues. Chirstianity gained respect and an audience because it finally had defenders were not seen as peasants. Bascially, once some Christian thinkers gained acceptance in the elite cocktail circuit, the religion as a whole gained momentum.

And then Constantine's mother turned Christian...

1035 average_guy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:58:32pm

College-educated Americans have come to believe that their money is safe with Democrats – but that their values are under threat from Republicans. And there are more and more of these college-educated Americans all the time.

This belief is indoctrinated (along with all the other AmeriKKKa rhetoric) by college educators. It is framed within the "Big Government" window.

A true conservative party woud be both fiscally conservative AND socially conservative. The REPUBLICAN party is NEVER going to be both any longer.

A new party that is conservative in both major areas would work, and work well. I know I would support such a party.

1036 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:58:35pm

Guys (and gals) noting that Prop 8 won in CA -- 48% voted against it (i.e., in favor of gay marriage). Considering how controversial gay marriage is, that's *hardly* a resounding rejection of it and hardly a resounding vote in favor of social conservatism. Next time it's on the ballot in 10 years or so, it'll win. Young people, of all religious backgrounds generally tend to look neutrally at homosexuality. If a man supported: tax cuts, strong defense, strong borders, was anti-abortion, anti-aff. action, and pro-gun, but was openly gay, he'd lose the Republican vote, and not because of fiscal conservatives/libertarians.

1037 winston06  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:59:15pm

re: #1033 Sharmuta

To hell with religious nuts. They r not why GOP lost this election. Hussein O bought the votes.

1038 Dead Sea Squirrel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 3:59:57pm

re: #1017 ploome hineni

how would Nobama have done, without all that ILLEGAL MONEY and all that media support?

And add in the Chicago thug tactics and the ACORN's massive voter fraud, for good measure.

And the media are gushing today about how it was the most perfectly executed presidential campaign evuh.

1039 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:00:03pm

re: #934 Zimriel

The Left also has its religious beliefs; we can include global warming, the non-hereditability of intelligence, the unimportance of human life.

There's a good talk by Stephen Pinker about 'The Blank Slate', a concept that seems to underpin a lot of leftist attitudes.

1040 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:00:31pm

re: #988 Sharmuta

What's wrong with pot smokers?

We agree on something?

1041 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:00:50pm

re: #981 medaura18586

re: #934 Zimriel

re: #903 Adina in Judea

It doesn't meet the criteria I set in my post.

Your hair does NOT have individual human DNA and it does NOT have the properties of a living entity.

Did you defy my criteria on purpose or didn't you notice what I'd written?

What was your criteria again?

My hair does have individual DNA --mine. You could clone me out of one of my hair strands. What property of a "living entity" does a 4 week embryo have?

My arm has the qualities of a living entity: Many cells there working together. I can sever it. It would hurt like a mother, but I would have not killed a human being. My humanity resides with my consciousness, with my brain. If an embryo doesn't even have a nervous system yet, it is not even remotely close to being eligible for consideration as a human being.

Or did you mean "UNIQUE" as opposed to "INDIVIDUAL" DNA?

In such case,.. well then, every egg any woman passes at ovulation has unique genetic material. Every time a woman gets her menses, she is wasting unique DNA... Killing human beings? I don't think so. That goes for every sperm cell flushed down the toilet after any masturbatory activity too.

Your hair does NOT have its own DNA. It has yours.

As for your arm, it does NOT have the properties of a separate living being.

Neither do eggs and sperm. They also only have HALF the necessary DNA.

My question is too difficult for some here.

1042 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:01:01pm

re: #1037 winston06

To hell with religious nuts. They r not why GOP lost this election. Hussein O bought the votes.

It's an overall problem for the party- we're views as all being religious conservative Christians when we're not. It's an image problem.

1043 mahatma coat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:01:14pm

David Frumi is an(brought up in socialist Canada) out and out absolute RINO.Social Conservatism is the essence of Conservatism.To Conserve! Our cultur,our heritage etc.For the past 2-3 generations our cultural values ,developed in wisdom over generations and generations have been simply ditched .We are in uncharted territory here.No culture has voluntarily refuted its religion(and don't think that is not inextricably linked to culture) and its cultural values.I think the result has been devastating!I could write from now til next tuesday about the negative effects of this ,but its abit tough with 2 fingers...

1044 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:01:27pm

re: #1040 SFGoth

Have you read this entire thread?

1045 average_guy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:01:53pm

re: #1036 SFGoth

Guys (and gals) noting that Prop 8 won in CA -- 48% voted against it (i.e., in favor of gay marriage). Considering how controversial gay marriage is, that's *hardly* a resounding rejection of it and hardly a resounding vote in favor of social conservatism. Next time it's on the ballot in 10 years or so, it'll win. Young people, of all religious backgrounds generally tend to look neutrally at homosexuality. If a man supported: tax cuts, strong defense, strong borders, was anti-abortion, anti-aff. action, and pro-gun, but was openly gay, he'd lose the Republican vote, and not because of fiscal conservatives/libertarians.


But 52% to 48% in popular vote for president is a landslide?

1046 bulwrk  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:02:01pm

re: #1036 SFGoth

If a man supported: tax cuts, strong defense, strong borders, was anti-abortion, anti-aff. action, and pro-gun, but was openly gay, he'd lose the Republican vote,

Bullshit.

1047 J.S.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:02:16pm

Also, McCain and Palin weren't just running against Obama. They were running against the stacked deck -- which included not just the Obama, chicago Machine, but the whole gamut of the MSM, including SNL (and all the so-called "comics", all the cartoon shows -- from Family Guy, etc. -- on and on). I think maybe another lesson to be learned here is that the MSM not only needs to be boycotted, avoided like the plague, but some substitutes found...(on the Internet?)

1048 Tanker J.D.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:03:12pm

It's very simply, really--it's a coalition. Both sides need the other.

The social conservatives need the free marketers and defense hawks, and the free marketers and defense hawks need the social conservatives.

The beauty of the principle of limited federal government is it helps both sides acheive their goals. The social conservatives can work at the state level on social conservative issues, free from federal intrusion or veto. The free marketers get the laissez-faire they need to make the country properous. The defense hawks have the federal government primarily interested in defense and foreign affairs, and not worried about domestic issues

Part of the problem is that social conservatives, as they age, want some populist agenda items like Medicare Part D and retaining social secuirty, which are inemical to free marketers.

I think the lesson of the Bush years is that the GOP over-emphasized the social issues in its candidates and rejected the other two prongs in its three-legged stool. That much is true. The remedy, though, is not to demonize and reject the social conservatives. Rather, let's find the candidate that believes in limited government, too, along with being a church-goer and being persuasive, rather than shrill, on the moral issues such as abortion.

Obama provides an object lesson in how smooth, moderate tones can take a position that many voters would not like and represent it. I hate to say it, but sometimes it is about tone...

1049 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:03:47pm

Of course anyone who doesn't agree with the Religious right is a RINO. We get it, way to expand the party. Folks saying that are proving the point of the article.

1050 FrogMarch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:03:54pm

re: #1021 J.S.

Indeed. There are so many factors at play. and since Palin, as an evangelical pro-life candidate, promised that she would not support creationism in schools (which is good) - and pro-gay marriage amendments failed - I'm not so sure about who or what is to blame.
For me, I definitely blame the media. It's a wonder McCain pulled as many votes as he did with all that was aligned against him.

1051 Ezekiel2517  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:04:03pm

So in essence you're willing to just kiss off the votes of social conservatives, or you just want them to shut up and vote Republican no matter how pro-abortion the candidate might be?

You're dreaming.

1052 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:04:16pm

re: #1038 Dead Sea Squirrel

And add in the Chicago thug tactics and the ACORN's massive voter fraud, for good measure.

I was a soldier in that fight all day yesterday. The thugs one. They bussed them into MY POLLING PLACE in Wisconsin, from Chicago. I had to deal with them from 6:45 AM till 9:30 PM last night.

Cops were called, protests were filed, poll workers were intimidated, voters were intimidated. They called the sherriff on the pastor of the church that was my polling station.

Get used to Government by THUG.

1053 Dead Sea Squirrel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:04:54pm

re: #1036 SFGoth

Guys (and gals) noting that Prop 8 won in CA -- 48% voted against it (i.e., in favor of gay marriage). Considering how controversial gay marriage is, that's *hardly* a resounding rejection of it and hardly a resounding vote in favor of social conservatism. Next time it's on the ballot in 10 years or so, it'll win. Young people, of all religious backgrounds generally tend to look neutrally at homosexuality.

You're forgetting that blacks and hispanics are more opposed to gay marriage than whites. And we're being reminded constantly that we need to appeal to these voter blocs (esp. hispanics) because that way lies the future.

1054 E tan e epi tan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:05:13pm

The Republicans in Illinois started following this strategy around 8 years ago. Be more like the Democrats only not as much so...

Before they started this they held the governorship since the 80s. They had the secretary of state's office, the comptroller and majorities in the state senate. Now? They no longer hold any higher public offices. They're minorities in the state house and senate. Their organization is so decimated that they're losing congressmen in formerly safe districts and our Senator Dick Durtbag can double date with Michael Jackson and still get reelected.

If people want Democrat Lite, they'll choose more conservative Democrats, not liberal Republicans.

Doesn't sound like a winner to me.

1055 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:05:40pm

the thugs WON, not one.

sorry

I am a muddle puddle

1056 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:06:03pm

re: #1027 Jimmah

re: #992 Adina in Judea

Your cheek cells have your DNA in them, not their own individual DNA.

Cheek cells aren't organisms. Only the germs on them are.

My question is still difficult for some.

The difficulty is all yours, Adina. Where does your own individual DNA reside, if not in every cell of your body? It doesn't reside anywhere else but there. It has the blueprint to construct another you in it. Cheek cells are organisms in their own right although they don't survive long outside of your body. Which is also true of a human embryo.

Every cell of my body has my own DNA, just as every cell in an embryo's body has his or her own unique DNA (unless the embryo is an idential twin or a triplet, etc.)

What we are really talking about here is awareness, and young undeveloped embryos don't have that, if science is anything to go by.

Awareness isn't necessary for a human being to be human, though.

If an individual born human being isn't aware, then is it not human to you?

1057 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:06:47pm

re: #1044 Sharmuta

Have you read this entire thread?

No. I'm just taking a break from writing a motion to enforce a writ of mandate against the East Palo Alto Rent Board, and researching a lawsuit against San Francisco's Prop. M. Actually, I read the beginning and it appears our difference is in methodology not ideology, unless I'm wrong. In which case, I'm wrong. Tangent -- I'd love to share bong hits with Jonah Goldberg and Rich Lowry, then talk politics. Not that they get high (maybe they do) but they seem really cool and smart. I could do Shabbat w/Jonah. That'd be fun.

1058 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:07:08pm

You are losing the focus again. This isn't about blame, it's about next election. That comes in 2010.

Personally I don't think any Republican ticket or coalition could have won in this election. Until the party starts recognizing that there are things needing change we will continue to be stuck in a no future last-century debate.

1059 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:07:25pm

re: #1019 Thanos

The problem isn't social conservatism, it's with the inneffective leadership of social conservatives. They continually throw out red meat posture issues that guarantee two things: More turnout of social conservatives at the polls, and total failure of of their agenda. Prop 8 might be seen as a victory, but trust me it's not. It'll be in court before the week is out I would wager.

The problem is that people view government as a vehicle for coercion and those in power encourage them because that's the only way they can stay in power.

1060 brickthruplateglasswindow  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:08:01pm

re: #955 mama winger

Awww, shit. :(

Prayers up from the Brick abode.

1061 hang a ralph  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:08:37pm

Charles, first of all I think that you are letting your hypersensitivity to religion cloud your thinking. This was not a test of religion. I don't think that we heard the concept of creationism mentioned one time in this whole thing. Religious fundamentalism was hardly ever mentioned. It was all about the key issues. This was a failure of leadership. Bush got tired of bucking the system so he joined them and we paid for it.

This came down to Republicans forgetting their roots of fiscal conservatism and using their common sense. Over budget spending through pork, earmarks and big government helped create the crisis we are in.

Failure of the Republican party to deal with the housing issue years ago ahead of this meltdown set the tone. Bush had done a hideous job of taking the issues to the people. He seems to have totally forgotten the concept of a news conference.

The media was heavily in the tank for Obama and you can't change that. You just have to wait until he and the democrats really screw up to the point where it cannot be hidden. They will turn on him. How do you beat a candidate that the media WANTS to win. You can't even if you strangle every ounce of religion out of your platform.

You all need to realize also that the Democratic party is being taken much further left than the center is comfortable with. I can see the center being much more comfortable with a conservative right than a lunatic left.

You take moral values out of your equation and you sink the country. Religion is where we got our moral values from to begin with. Man did not just all of a sudden start behaving correctly. Stop and think about where we are now. Greed got us in this financial mess we are in. Look at marriages failing and societal breakdown in general. Wow, lets all go over to the side of insanity! Charles, you think somehow taking religion out of life is going to make the world a better place then you better keep dreaming. You take that out of life and man makes up his own rules. Everyone does that which is right in his own eyes and that means anything goes.

We lost because we stuck our heads in the toilets like the Democrats and they did a much better job of making it look like it was all our fault. The problem is Bush spent too much time on their side of the aisle and embraced their policies.

1062 mama winger  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:08:44pm

re: #1060 brickthruplateglasswindow

Awww, shit. :(

Prayers up from the Brick abode.

Thanks Brick. I appreciate it.

1063 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:08:45pm

re: #1049 Thanos

Of course anyone who doesn't agree with the Religious right is a RINO. We get it, way to expand the party. Folks saying that are proving the point of the article.

Indeed. They seem to think they are the base of the party. Perhaps if they were allowed to nominate Jindal they'd find out how quickly they're not the base, merely a component of it.

1064 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:08:58pm

re: #1029 Oh no...Sand People!

I understand that the way I stated that sounded alarmist and a bit closed minded, but it is an honest question. I am pretty darn socially liberal, but wonder where we are to stop with giving rights to so-called minority groups. If every wish and want its own minority group?

It would have been unfair to stop at rights for Women, or Blacks, or Religions, or even maybe Homosexuals...but if so, where do we stop?

I don't like discriminating against people, or picking and choosing who gets what so-called "rights", but doesn't it have to stop somewhere? If not, we are just crawling towards chaos, and full hedonism.

1065 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:09:07pm

re: #988 Sharmuta

What's wrong with pot smokers?

Some people still think all pot smokers are smelly hippies plotting the overthrow of the Man.

1066 J.S.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:09:25pm

re: #1050 FrogMarch

I agree. Oh, and speaking of "religous nut jobs" (while on the topic), the Obama campaign was suffused with religious imagery, religious symbols, and religious metaphors. I kept reading so-called "conservative" pundits (the ones who couldn't stand Palin, yet decided to throw in their support for The Zero) invoking religious terms to describe Obama and his campaign. So there were not just "the halos" in the Obama photos, there was the references to America "expiating its origianl sin" (repeated numerous times, not just by Obama but by his worshippers, etc., etc.)

1067 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:09:41pm

re: #1046 bulwrk

If a man supported: tax cuts, strong defense, strong borders, was anti-abortion, anti-aff. action, and pro-gun, but was openly gay, he'd lose the Republican vote,

Bullshit.

You're outta your mind. Talk about the Bradley effect. No way an open fag (sarc) wins the Republican vote; maybe a lot of GOPers, but the soccons, not a chance. Bible says he's immoral, regardless of that love the sinner hate the sin shit.

1068 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:09:48pm

re: #1059 rightymouse

The problem is that people view government as a vehicle for coercion and those in power encourage them because that's the only way they can stay in power.

Yes, and both sides do that. Obversely, Morning in America was about freedom and the future.

1069 Dead Sea Squirrel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:09:55pm

I'd like to see how a Palin/Bolton ticket would do in 2012.

People vote for the people they trust and respect, more than for any specific laundry list of stated policy positions. Good or bad, it's so.

1070 MJBrutus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:10:40pm

I strongly agree Charles!

Note: I want to say up front that I am an atheist.

I would like to make a distinction, however, between religious conservatism and cultural conservatism. I am a cultural conservative in that I believe that it means something to be an American. We have a rich history and tradition and uniquely American ideals and spirit that is vital to our future success (cultural conservatism). While religion is certainly a large part of the American character, I believe that far too many people want to legislate their religious beliefs (religious conservatives).

The introduction and single-mindedness of religious conservatives has indeed compromised our ability to make progress on fiscal and security matters. Most of the social tension and cultural animosity comes from a slavish obsession with abortion, both pro and con. Few on either side can, if being truthful, deny that our Constitution does not empower the Feds to make laws about whether abortion is or isn't allowed. Roe v Wade was a terrible decision that took the issue out of the Democratic process. That sucks, but short of winning elections and nomination fights for the SCOTUS, that will not change.

I think that in the eyes of far too many, conservatives are viewed as ignorant throw-backs and readily discredited as such because of the marriage that was formed with religious fanatics. I'm sorry to those who self-identify as religious conservatives, but that is the simple truth. I welcome you to help us work our way back to political prominence, but not if you are going to place your desire to legislate your religion ahead of the good of our country. Please do not try to argue that those 2 goals are one and the same. This election is iron-clad proof that they are not.

1071 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:10:59pm

re: #1057 SFGoth

I think you've got it! I hope you read through this entire thread and come to understand my position better. You're not alone in your ideology, but I can't agree that leaving is the answer. I'm going to stick with the party and work on the areas I feel need improving from the inside.

1072 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:11:05pm

Look - to those who are arguing that hair and arms are individual humans if embryos are individual humans - I didn't bring all this up. One of you did.

I asked what you think an embryo is if it isn't human.

No one seems to have an answer.

1073 tackle  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:11:43pm

re: #961 Dotcoman

a creepy non-Christian (Mormon) mannequin in Romney


Oh for hellsakes can we stop with that already?
He may look like a mannequin but a Christian he is.
I'm outta here!

1074 docremulac  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:12:14pm

One way to look at things: Think California-centric.

If a conservative wins California, he wins the Presidency. Interested on how to do it from a "California conservative"? You might not like it, but it's true.

1- Realize that abortion is to the conservative party what gun control USED to be to the Democrats before they got smart and dumped it as an issue. Americans love their freedom, including their freedom to do something as horrible as have an abortion. The best conservatives could hope for is to allow some states to outlaw it so women would have to drive from Alabama to Florida to get an abortion. Is this really worth letting the Bolsheviks take power by giving them an issue they constantly use to get the woman's vote? Wanna live your life on pure principal? That's great, just don't complain when nobody joins your parade. Let me put it this way, the Democrats love it when they hear our guys talk about outlawing abortion. Something to think about.

2- Lay off the gays as long as they leave their agenda out of the schools. Draw this line in the sand clearly, but declare detente with homosexuality so long as they don't beat our kids over the head with it. You don't have to like or approve of everything you live with. Give up the idea of "getting rid of them", or getting rid of anybody for that matter. Concentrate on closing the borders, that's job enough, but everybody who's here is staying. Get used to it.

3- God may well have created heaven and Earth but he did it a long, long time ago and he didn't actually put 2 of every animal on a small boat and flood the Earth. Have some humility with your religion and accept that there are some things that don't jibe with reality but that doesn't mean that the main principals need to be abandoned. The Catholic church said Earth was the center of the universe and only comparatively recently accepted, as fact, that the Sun is the center of our solar system and the Earth does not remain still as the center of all creation. Godless intellectuals are mindless sheep in following to the letter their bible written by a drunk, bitter, hate-filled pseudo-scientist, Karl Marx. Don't be like them. Apply a little logic, and a little pragmatism in interpreting your Bible.

4- Then close the borders and don't be afraid to declare that our laws supersede all others within those borders, including those of islam. Declare that we have the right to do business or ally with any country we want without anybody telling us what to do. Declare that we as citizens have the right to throw criminals in jail for as long as they're criminals and tell the government we have the right to spend our money the way we see fit, not the way they see fit.

In the opinion of this Californian, allow these you'll get California and the world. Don't, you'll get squat. And if you read this and say: "Then what's the difference between us and the left"? you need to get a clue. The left is a corrupt bunch of unscrupulous communist, fascists pigs bent on creating a thugocracy where the people are ground into the dirt while the self appointed ruling class sits at the top of society un-challenged by the lowly citizenry. That's difference enough for me.

Anyway, that's my humble opinion, thanks for giving it some consideration.

1075 Bill K.  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:12:18pm

#1000 redvoter

Japan and Germany were worth rebuilding as long as we have total control. Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran are not. Their culture is too alien. Contrary to Bush may think, most in the Mideast do not yearn for political freedom. We are under no obligation to sacrifice the lives of our soldiers for the freedom of our enemies. They must learn the value of freedom for themselves.

#1001 Dead Sea Squirrel

If an abortion is truly forced on a woman then it is a criminal matter. Of course the anti-abortionists think nothing of forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term regardless of what she wants.

1076 Yashmak  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:12:19pm

Spot on article Charles.

Fact is, the majority of Americans fall between the far right and far left. No one is appealing to moderates, and neither end of the spectrum adequately represents this vast majority.

The Republicans have an opportunity to fill this void. . .if they take it. If they allow religiously driven issues to continue to polarize the party, someone else will fill that void.

1077 Globular Cluster  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:12:20pm
This argument makes sense to us, and we’ve been holding forth in our comments on this very topic. If the GOP decides to go in the Bobby Jindal direction (fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights), it will be committing political suicide. As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win.

Agreed. We need dynamic, smart leaders like Michael Steele, Carly Fiorina, Linda Lingle, Romney, Ginghrich, and Giuliani. They need to be articulate. They need to be able to rip katie Couric and Charlie Gibson new assholes. The need have integrity, they need to adopt the following positions:

Less government
Lower Taxes
Strong National Defense
Aggressive Foreign Policy
Pro 2nd Amendment
Pro Israel
Pro School Vouchers
Fewer Laws
Pro States' Rights
Pro alternative energy and domestic drilling, with real, serious funding for alternatives
Libertarian on Gay Marriage. Abortion legal within first 3 months only. Pro parental consent, no late term abortions. Alternatively, abortion should be left up to the states, no further comment.
Creationism? As long as the kids can accurately explain evolution, then private schools can teach both. (Bullets from Charles, I know)

The social conservative agenda is an outright failure, and while it guarantees the evangelical vote, it makes it very hard to get additional votes beyond them. It deters independents heavily.

What is pissing me off to no end is when people like Ann Coulter, Laura Ingraham, and Rush insist that anyone who disagrees with them on any position is no longer a "conservative". They have many good points but when they do this, well, fuck them.

What the fuck does "conservative" mean? Rudy Giuliani, pro-choice, lived with a couple gay guys, told the Saudi Sheikh to stick his check up his ass, backed the police, got rid of crime in NYC. Took on the Mafia as DA and won. Oops, I guess he's a spineless liberal.

Rush thinks Mike Huckabee is not a conservative. He thinks John McCain is not a conservative. Rush characterizes himself as a "conservative from the waste up", i.e., he gets to fuck as many women as he wants with his viagra and tell every one else he is the most conservative.

I am absolutely sick and tired of the bullshit. Everyone who isn't them or a dittohead is a "RINO". We need to cut players from the team -- senators and congressman. Pork? gone. Excessive spending? Gone. Doing nothing about illegal immigration? Gone. Can't formulate a sentence? Gone. Trying to fuck police officers in bathroom stalls? Gone.

1078 guitarguy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:12:47pm

Bobby Jindal: Exorcist
[Link: swampland.blogs.time.com...]

The media and the left would have a field day with that.
...oh, wait...they already have...

Please...let's shop around, Okay?

1079 UFO TOFU  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:13:08pm

re: #1052 mama winger
That's disgusting. I'm sorry you had to endure that. Thanks though.

1080 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:13:34pm

re: #1065 Jimmah

Some people still think all pot smokers are smelly hippies plotting the overthrow of the Man.

Some of us are very well-dressed aristocratic goths, who wear spiffy frock coats, vests, and top hats. The ladies among us wear custom corsets and dresses. Hippy decolletage ---ewww; goth decolletage, pant pant pant. ;->

1081 AmericanMe  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:13:52pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

Soc-cons are killing us in elections by alienating independent moderates AND the fiscal-cons. This has got to stop, and it won't unless republicans get involved in the party and tell these folks to keep their social agenda programs at church because it's not the business in which government is supposed to be addressing.


Exactly

1082 mahatma coat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:13:56pm

re: #1046 bulwrk

you're just being silly .Of course he wouldn't .As long as he didn't see what he did with his dick as a political issue!Decent people have always been tolerant ,but homosexual "culture " now wants unquestioning approval.If you want to know what that entails see Zombietime'S pictorial essay on the "Up YOUR Alley " street fest

1083 MJBrutus  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:14:05pm

re: #1051 Ezekiel2517

So in essence you're willing to just kiss off the votes of social conservatives, or you just want them to shut up and vote Republican no matter how pro-abortion the candidate might be?

You're dreaming.

What we want is "social conservatives" (see more recent post for an explanation fo the scare quotes here) to look beyond their bibles and see what their obsession has done to our chances to keep this country on the road to prosperity and security.

1084 Ukase  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:14:22pm

re: #877 CyanSnowHawk

My creationist example was a bit extreme. My general point, however, is that local communities need to be given as much leeway as possible to set their standards.

Right now, the GOP and Democrats are locked into a cage fight about how to legislate morality on a national scale. This sets up the boogie man argument on both sides "the republicans are going to chain your daughters" vs "the democrats are going to make your sons marry dogs and cats", and extremists rule on both sides.

The GOP can take this argument off the table by standing for the principle of smaller, local government. Sure, some local governments might make stupid decisions such as teaching unintelligent design, but that only affects their kids' ability to get into ivy league schools.

1085 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:15:05pm

re: #1068 Thanos

Yes, and both sides do that. Obversely, Morning in America was about freedom and the future.

Everyone needs to stop using the government as a coercive tool. It's not a Dem or Rep thing. It's whether a person understands liberty or not.

1086 gas238  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:15:21pm

Wait, was that not why John McCain was nominated? Didn't McCain get all those moderates to elect him? Obama was smart enough to stick with his base, not become a republican. Any suggestion that the republican party screw its base and become like democrats will lead to more McCain type losers. McCain did not even turn New Hampshire. IF you remember, McCain was leading with Palin, up until another moderate named Paulsen set him up for the fall. Enough with this saying you have to abandon Reagan, to be Reagan. Stupid ! Had McCain acted like a true conservative and opposed the bailout, he would have been elected. Ditto Immigration, Ditto Campaign Finance reform, Ditto public Financing, Ditto opposing cap and trade.

If you want to spout this nonsense, try it with a real conservative.
How about we nominate a someone who is proudly conservative and who has the guts to advance Conservative principals. NO one is going to vote for democrat light. McCain just proved it.

1087 mahatma coat  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:15:48pm

re: #1061 hang a ralphI don't think that we heard the concept of creationism mentioned one time in this whole thing"

I disagree we heard it endlessly on this blog
"

1088 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:16:10pm

re: #1056 Adina in Judea

Awareness isn't necessary for a human being to be human, though.

If an individual born human being isn't aware, then is it not human to you?

It's certainly human, but if it has no awareness -no thoughts or feelings, it's not a person, anymore than an individual human cell or any other collection of non-sentient human tissue and organs.

1089 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:16:27pm

re: #1064 WrathofG-d

I understand that the way I stated that sounded alarmist and a bit closed minded, but it is an honest question. I am pretty darn socially liberal, but wonder where we are to stop with giving rights to so-called minority groups. If every wish and want its own minority group?

It would have been unfair to stop at rights for Women, or Blacks, or Religions, or even maybe Homosexuals...but if so, where do we stop?

I don't like discriminating against people, or picking and choosing who gets what so-called "rights", but doesn't it have to stop somewhere? If not, we are just crawling towards chaos, and full hedonism.

You don't give rights to groups, you give them to individuals, just like the constitution says. If two individuals want to marry, I don't have a problem with that. I used to say "civil union" until I did some research, which changed my view. It's not the church that issues the marriage certificate, it's always a gov't body. The church performs the ceremony in many cases, but justices of the peace can marry people as well as ship captains. Think on that a bit, even in Victorian times there were rules allowing non-religious marriage.

1090 mccainiac503  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:17:13pm

Bush failed as a fiscal conservative. McCain opposed Bush's tax cuts because they weren't matched by spending cuts. McCain opposed Bush's prescription drug boondoggle because it was a huge unfunded entitlement. McCain has opposed wasteful spending his entire career in the Senate. McCain stood up to the runaway spenders in the GOP who were more concerned about reaching into Terri Schiavo's hospital room than they were about being good stewards of our money. Trent Lott, Bill Frist, Tom Delay and George W. Bush failed us by failing to rein in runaway spending.

1091 RedVoter  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:18:02pm

re: #1035 average_guy

College-educated Americans have come to believe that their money is safe with Democrats – but that their values are under threat from Republicans. And there are more and more of these college-educated Americans all the time.

This belief is indoctrinated (along with all the other AmeriKKKa rhetoric) by college educators. It is framed within the "Big Government" window.

A true conservative party woud be both fiscally conservative AND socially conservative. The REPUBLICAN party is NEVER going to be both any longer.

A new party that is conservative in both major areas would work, and work well. I know I would support such a party.

Problem is this new party would have to get an agreement from the Republican party not to run in the same districts and split the votes. It would never happen. A third party is not viable in our electoral system of plurality because two parties cannibalize one another while the other cruises to victory.

What would be ideal is a 4 party system where an all out "Progressive" party is also on the ticket to balance out the Democrats. The conservative party you described could be the return of the "Federalist" party.

As for college educated Americans, I have said it before and will say it again, part of the battle to win elections needs to take place on our campuses across America. Radicals such as Ayers have expressed their intentions to radicalize our students and other Professors are just plain liberal and biased. Conservatives need to get on our campuses.

College educated people tend to make more than non college educated, so when Obama raises taxes and goes after their income and 401K's, maybe they'll have a change heart.

1092 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:20:08pm

I do not kid when I say that if the GOP came out in favor of removing marijuana from schedule 1 and allowing each state to regulate it like they do alcohol (and there are dry counties in this country), it would crush the Dems. Come out and admit that marijuana prohibition was enacted for economic reasons (crush the burgeoning industrial hemp industry) and b/c it was perceived to be a Hispanic drug (though popular during the 20's with middle class whites).

1093 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:20:54pm

re: #1080 SFGoth

Is there a 'Little Transylvania" in SF these days? ;)=

1094 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:21:47pm
1095 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:22:01pm

re: #1034 redvoter

Christianity rose to prominence because they adopted the ways of the elite ruling class and debated and discussed the issue as elites did with other issues. Chirstianity gained respect and an audience because it finally had defenders were not seen as peasants. Bascially, once some Christian thinkers gained acceptance in the elite cocktail circuit, the religion as a whole gained momentum.

And then Constantine's mother turned Christian...

Your explanation is clearly the plausible one. I was just trying to fashion a response to the odd assertion that there was some sort of sustained innate sense of victimhood in Christians going back to their repression by the Roman empire. In fact, the idea that Romans were inspired by Christian martyrdom as a factor to Christianities rise is probably more based in lore or, at best, anecdote.

1096 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:22:18pm

re: #1093 Jimmah

;)=

That was supposed to be a vampire emoticon btw.

1097 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:23:40pm

re: #1085 rightymouse

Everyone needs to stop using the government as a coercive tool. It's not a Dem or Rep thing. It's whether a person understands liberty or not.

Exactly. Political thought on the right must be re-examined. If we're not holding true to individual rights, then what are our principles? How are they different from the left? It's not just taking an opposite position on an issue, for me it's a fundamental difference in ideology. I'm for less government, they're for more.

1098 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:24:11pm

re: #1088 Jimmah

re: #1056 Adina in Judea

Awareness isn't necessary for a human being to be human, though.

If an individual born human being isn't aware, then is it not human to you?

It's certainly human, but if it has no awareness -no thoughts or feelings, it's not a person, anymore than an individual human cell or any other collection of non-sentient human tissue and organs.

Ok, so you think embryos ARE human (from conception.) Good.

Some born, living human beings have no thought processes, though.

You would agree that they're human, but I hope you wouldn't see them a collections of tissues and organs.

A human doesn't have to have a certain level of thought to be a person.

...unless you see disabled people who don't have thought processes as collections of tissues and organs that can be killed without concern for their humanity.

1099 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:24:26pm
1100 Tigger2005  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:25:25pm

re: #957 WrathofG-d

I wholeheartedly reject anyone's claims (especially those that do not hold them) that the Conservative party needs to get rid of their social conservative values.

Are we who hold such so-called values just to accept that we must all be free-wheeling, pot smoking, abortion loving, G-d rejecting, immoral hedonists to be Americans? Are we to accept that we no longer have a voice or party in this country any more? Wouldn't that be exactly what the Democrats would want, and have always wanted?

The attitude you display above is a big part of the problem. You are deliberately restating the issue in a needlessly antagonistic manner, and putting words in people's mouths.

First, no one has said that the Conservative party needs to 'get rid' of their social conservative values. They are free to hold those values as near and dear to their hearts and lives as always.

Second, not everyone who doesn't entirely share the values of social conservatives is a "free-wheeling, pot smoking, abortion loving, G-d rejecting, immoral hedonist."

But just as conservatives don't want a "Nanny-state" government interfering with their businesses and their pocketbooks, lots of people don't want the government interfering in their personal lives. (And for that matter, lots of conservatives don't like government interfering with their personal lives when it comes to their use of "legal drugs" like tobacco and alcohol.)

Can we really legislate moral values? Are people really "moral" when they do or don't do things by government decree and threat of punishment, rather than by a law "written on their hearts"?

The way to restore moral values is through parents and other adults teaching and demonstrating them to their children. Although I must admit government and society could probably do more to assist parents in limiting childrens' access to morally questionable material.

1101 Spirit93  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:26:15pm

re: #1026 Salem

So go on vacation. It's a slimy tactic and Charles should know because he's had to respond to it about a trillion times when once should have been sufficient. But some people are just to thick, or two intellectually dishonest, to let it go.

I looked at rudi's history and couldn't find ANY comments about creationism, so how is he doing anything tacticle? His post in this thread was not ABOUT creationism, but about the article posted. He got blocked for ONE post without any history or clarification or discussion.
I think that is an overreaction.

1102 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:26:47pm

re: #1093 Jimmah

Is there a 'Little Transylvania" in SF these days? ;)=

Dunno. I'm not into vampires. I prefer a heaving bosom to a dead one. I did date a Bulgarian girl and we visited the Rodopi Mountains. Talk about remote.

1103 FrogMarch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:27:23pm

re: #1066 J.S.

I agree. Oh, and speaking of "religous nut jobs" (while on the topic), the Obama campaign was suffused with religious imagery, religious symbols, and religious metaphors. I kept reading so-called "conservative" pundits (the ones who couldn't stand Palin, yet decided to throw in their support for The Zero) invoking religious terms to describe Obama and his campaign. So there were not just "the halos" in the Obama photos, there was the references to America "expiating its origianl sin" (repeated numerous times, not just by Obama but by his worshippers, etc., etc.)


Basically people on the right are ridiculed for showing religiosity - (and some of the crazy ones should be) while religious people on the left are given a free pass. (mostly by the media.)

off topic but --
It's sort of like patriotism. I'm patriotic all of the time. Leftists are only patriotic when their candidate is winning. to the left - all of our patriotic songs are disgusting when George Bush is in office. But suddenly - now that "The One" is in - patriotic songs are cool again with the left.

1104 Zimriel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:27:40pm

SFGoth, newp. Middle-aged white people love marijuana prohibition. That is because marijuana is popular among underemployed minorities, and underemployed minorities are unpopular among middle-aged white people. Drug-war arrests are viewed, in my neighbourhood (which is representative of low-to-middle-income urban neighbourhoods), as pre-emptive strikes against potential criminals.

1105 wltzacrsstxs  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:27:53pm

I don't see any reason why the fiscal conservatives can't join with the social conservative wing of the Republican party for a common cause -- because "conservative" should mean that the federal government stays out of social/moral decision making, because it's not the feds' job. We should look to the US Constitution and if it's not in there, the decision should be left up to the states. See the 10th Amendment.

Charles mentions "fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights" as issues. The appropriate Republican response to these issues SHOULD be:

1. The federal government shall make no laws favoring one religion, or indeed ANY religion, over another. No state religion to be endorsed by the federal government. This was the entire purpose of the 1st Amendment - there will be no "Church of America" like a "Church of England." The 1st Amendment does not give anyone the right to be free FROM religion, and the courts should have figured this out a long time ago instead of meddling into what a city can put on a hillside, on its front lawn at Christmas, or what colors kids can wear to public school at Christmas. THIS is what the social conservatives want; they want their cross in San Diego and their Christmas trees back - and they don't want God banished from their lives just because some judge says so. Interestingly, some of my Jewish friends are really teed, in retrospect, that their parents were so litigious and whiney about Christmas trees at school and nativity scenes on the courthouse square. With the way American jurisprudence has gone, they with their parents had just kept quiet.

2. The Constitution doesn't say anything about "privacy rights." I have a pocket-sized copy in my desk and NO WHERE IN THERE is a right to privacy. The USSC never should have gone down that "implied right" road in the first place, and to give the voice back to the people where it belongs, the USSC should undo all the damage it has done by trying to rule people's lives from the bench. Roe and Bowers are impossible to swallow because they are based on the myth of a right that does not exist in the US Constitution.

Honestly, I think you could make the social conservatives AND the fiscal conservatives happy by having a TRUE conservative plank, which would be to end federal involvement - and court intervention - in all of this stuff. Let local folks decide what they want in the way of rules on abortion, gay marriage, and creationism. People can either persuade their neighbors to see their side of the issue, or if they just can't take being in the minority, they can move to a place where people are more like them. Let's let the feds get back to their only true purpose: providing for the common defense.

1106 brain-washed sheeple  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:28:36pm

And so it begins... the splintering of the Republican Party. We Conservatives will miss the all-of-a-sudden "Progressive" camp.

Keep Frum, we like Reagan just fine.

1107 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:28:45pm

re: #856 WrathofG-d

Dang, I'm getting ignored so much around here I think I'm back with the family.

;-)

1108 jimsaco  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:30:31pm

When I looked at the exit polls, it struck me that:

Whites went for McCain roughly 60/40
Latinos went for Obama about 2-to-1
Essentially all the African American vote went to Obama

In considering the Prop 8 vote in California... whites favored the "no" position narrowly, but African Americans went 70/30 in favor!

I can see a semi-devious Karl Rove type looking at this and thinking:

1. Make some accommodationist noises on immigration;
2. Go really hard against gay marriage;
3. Keep everything else more or less the same;
4. Wait for Obama and the Dems to over-reach (hint: they will).

Then everybody talks about the Republican Resurgence.

Now the Dems have no one to blame, they have the whole shootin match. Who thinks their honeymoon will last more than 3 months, or another 1000 points down on the Dow?

1109 Muadib  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:31:27pm
1110 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:31:30pm

re: #1104 Zimriel

SFGoth, newp. Middle-aged white people love marijuana prohibition. That is because marijuana is popular among underemployed minorities, and underemployed minorities are unpopular among middle-aged white people. Drug-war arrests are viewed, in my neighbourhood (which is representative of low-to-middle-income urban neighbourhoods), as pre-emptive strikes against potential criminals.

I said make it a state issue, not legalize it. Let MAWP in Mississippi keep it downlow and let MAWP in CA legalize it. Drug war -- yeah, let's go after well-to-do doing coke. Make the conservative case against the drug war -- Bill Buckley did it quite elegantly. The same middle-aged white people (hmmm, is 41 middle aged?) against weed are probably the same ones Frum and Charles are talking about. Besides, the MAWP stay home and 1/2 the liberals vote pro-weed. Do the math.

1111 vegasjew  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:36:19pm

I have not heard anyone state the obvious.
Issues aside,(I voted for the hero)
but
George Bush was a better candidate than Kerry
Barack Obama was a better candidate than McCain

Image is important .
Also I think the way McCain could team up with Hucksterbee and eliminate Romney ,should have been the hardball politics he could show fighting the Dems.
18-29 66-34 Obama
message image enthusiasm we have many many problems even if Obama media was a big factor and
Obama probably took 300 mill in phony credit cards from dictators.

1112 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:36:26pm

re: #1052 mama winger

I was a soldier in that fight all day yesterday. The thugs one. They bussed them into MY POLLING PLACE in Wisconsin, from Chicago. I had to deal with them from 6:45 AM till 9:30 PM last night.

Cops were called, protests were filed, poll workers were intimidated, voters were intimidated. They called the sherriff on the pastor of the church that was my polling station.

Get used to Government by THUG.


Ahhh...well...we know how Obama won then.

1113 bitterclinger_in_PA  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:37:34pm

re: #578 Steve Rogers
Please please please leave your evolution out of politics. Evolution is more like a hypothesis then even a theory. Even Albert Einstein and DaVinci was a creation scientist. They believed in creationism.

It is impossible to create something from nothing in your spontaneous generation which is the foundation of evolution. That was proven 100 years ago. I could go on about carbon dating determining the age of fossils is only good up to 4000 years or that there is no evidence of random mutation between species. There are for instance no fossils of fish with wings mutating into birds over millions of years. Evolution was made up by a man on a ship ride who had an ax to grind with Christianity. I don't want to bore anyone with loads of facts discrediting evolution.

By the way did you ever hear the words in the declaration of independence "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."

Anyway professor I agree no need to mix it in politics.

1114 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:39:26pm

To ALL the RINOs in here ... get used to it guys ... You NEED the Social Conservatives if you EVER wish to hold the levers of power.

To the Social Conservatives in here. Your numbers and pulling power are not enough to EVER win in what is becoming a rapidly hedonistic narcissistic secular society. Get used to it and make the best of an ACCOMMODATION with your secular political bed mates.

Each side agree to the non-negotiable baseline philosophical roots of the other even though they may stick in your craw. Anything else is up for negotiation and compromise.


Otherwise you will have to wait for society to fracture under the strains of a socialist system writ large. At which time a new political demographic may emerge as we have seen in Russia.

1115 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:39:54pm

The war on drugs is a quagmire. We waste a lot of resources going after soft drugs like marijuana. Those resources should be spent going after hard drugs and other violent criminals. Pot heads just want to smoke their weed and be left alone. A couple of police officers I've spoke to about it think alcohol is a bigger problem, telling me they've never take a call to go to some pot head's house because he's beating his wife. If they are otherwise not infringing on the rights of others- I think pot smokers should be left alone.

Meanwhile- we're letting pedophiles out of jail on parole. You tell me what's so socially conservative about this.

1116 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:40:08pm

re: #1106 brain-washed sheeple

The "splintering of the Republican Party" began in '05.

Here's a post I wrote about that after we lost the '06 elections.

1117 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:40:58pm

re: #1101 Spirit93

I looked at rudi's history and couldn't find ANY comments about creationism, so how is he doing anything tacticle? His post in this thread was not ABOUT creationism, but about the article posted. He got blocked for ONE post without any history or clarification or discussion.
I think that is an overreaction.

re: #437 rudi

I understand that Charles is obsessed with the evolution/creationism debate

Well, gee, how did he come to that understanding unless he'd given the prior threads at least a cursory glance.

If you have your own blog and don't mind posters telling you you're obsessed, that's your own prerogative. Bot creationist apologists have produced enough noise and advance nothing, least of all the Republican party. If it were my blog these simpletons wouldn't get any more respect or patience. Let them seek out the appropriate echo-chambers elsewhere.

1118 Zimriel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:41:14pm

1108 jimsaco - something like this was going on in 1994. Pete Wilson was making inroads in the black population in California because illegal Latinos were muscling them out of, for instance, Compton.

But then in 1996 the Republicans, or at least their conservative ideologues in the courts, went against affirmative action. Not exactly sure why, in 1996 of all years, but I've always suspected it was judges' revenge against the OJ case's "jury nullification". Of course the Bushes as the "latino governors", not to mention their dad with that Willie Horton thing, started out very, VERY unpopular among blacks. So the phenomenon of "the black republican" died before it really got started.

Obama's managed to unite blacks and Latinos, basically because he's promised them that the taxpayer's got enough loot for everyone.

1119 conserVAtive  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:42:35pm

The GOP won't win elections by being "kinder, gentler" Democrats. The DNC have been co-opting time-tested conservative ideals and running more "blue dogs" in southern and western states. The GOP has permitted the DNC to run quasi-conservative candidates and voters in predominately conservative districts are indicating (see 2006 and 2008 election results) that they are willing to trust some Democrats to represent their interests in Washington. In many southern districts (Mississippi, Texas, North Carolina, Virginia, and Florida...to name a few) the Democrat actually ran to the right of the Republican! Folks, that should simply NEVER be allowed to happen. The GOP is (rightfully) being punished for not being socially or fiscally conservative enough.

The GOP needs to do a better job of pointing out that the first vote(s) cast by these new "Blue Dog" congressmen are to elect Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid to their respective leadership positions. The 110th Congress didn't really pass anything of consequence, but with these expanded majorities in the House and Senate (and BHO in the White House) they're sure to push their agenda through.

Put simply, the U.S. is a center-right country and when voters find a center-right candidate that appeals to them...the win (nearly every time). Let's put away the Hater-ade for the social conservatives/Religious Right...they're not the reason the GOP has lost its mojo. Many social conservative/Religious Right voters are voting third party or even Democrat because those candidates offered MORE COMPELLING reasons for people to vote for them. Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich won huge electoral majorities by running center-right campaigns with positive, uplifting theme...and they were able to go directly to the voters (despite the psychological operations and propaganda campaign of the existing MSM). The GOP had better gets its stuff in one sock quickly or get used to being in the minority for another 40+ years.

1120 marcusa  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:43:52pm

Then explain to me why socially conservative propositions thrive last night, nationwide?

1121 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:44:39pm

re: #1098 Adina in Judea


Ok, so you think embryos ARE human (from conception.) Good.

As are cheek cells.

Some born, living human beings have no thought processes, though.

You would agree that they're human, but I hope you wouldn't see them a collections of tissues and organs.

A human doesn't have to have a certain level of thought to be a person.

They have to have the capacity for some sort of thought or feeling - some kind of awareness, in order to be a person.

...unless you see disabled people who don't have thought processes as collections of tissues and organs that can be killed without concern for their humanity.

People who through some tragedy end up in a vegetative state often have their life support switched off, if recovery is impossible. That isn't the result of a callous attitude to life, it is in recognition of the fact that in the absence of awareness the person isn't really there anymore. Being a person is dependant on more than just being alive.

1122 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:44:40pm

If we don't figure out a way to stop foreign dictators from buying the White House through internet contributions from illegal sources, it won't matter what Republicans ever do in the future (unless Republicans fight fire with fire and get hundreds of millions of dollars in our own illegal campaign contributions.)

There are pro-Republican billionaires who could pitch in to do this.

If this is the way the country wants to go, then this is bound to happen.

1123 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:44:42pm

re: #1101 Spirit93

And now you're blocked too. Start your own blog and then you can decide how to run it.

1124 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:45:45pm

Bitterclinger, you are so full of shit your eyes must be brown. Please read some of the past posts on creationism here before reposting that thoroughly discredited Discovery institute and AIG propaganda.

1125 kynna  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:46:55pm

I haven't read through the whole thread, but I have read through about half and I just need to point out that it doesn't matter one fat 'rat's ass if Sarah Palin was a Pentecostal unless she's trying to force everyone in the country or her state to be a Pentecostal through abuse of power.

It's not my cup of tea, but I'm not a bigot so if it was hers for a time and she doesn't force me to give up my own non-violent worship practices ... what can I say? It's America.

1126 WrathofG-d  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:47:01pm

So did anyone watch the Obama victory speech yesterday?

I thought it was a great speech, and wonderful sentiment (although if I hear Change one...more...time...).

But what struck me the most was not Obama's words but the response of the gigantic crowd at around ___ (can't hear it too well on this version)

: Yes We Can...Sieg Change...

Now I am very remiss to make these comparisons because Obama is NOT Hitler...and I am not saying he is. This isn't about Obama, but about the crowd, about the people, about the populace. I'm also not saying that the U.S. populace are Germans in 1940s...but it sure scared the ___ out of me when I read it.

(on a side note, its funny that the crowd doesn't really cheer when Obama says nice things about McCain and Republicans.)

1127 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:47:09pm

re: #1115 Sharmuta

The war on drugs is a quagmire. We waste a lot of resources going after soft drugs like marijuana. Those resources should be spent going after hard drugs and other violent criminals. Pot heads just want to smoke their weed and be left alone. A couple of police officers I've spoke to about it think alcohol is a bigger problem, telling me they've never take a call to go to some pot head's house because he's beating his wife. If they are otherwise not infringing on the rights of others- I think pot smokers should be left alone.

Meanwhile- we're letting pedophiles out of jail on parole. You tell me what's so socially conservative about this.

There is of course the Singaporean solution. No drugs problem in that nation!

New technology will allow random testing and immediate 'rehabilitation' of any and all drugs users. A few years ;rehabilitation in Changi Prison (errr Rehabilitation centre) seems to immediately cure all previous drug user. Funny that!

By the way a short trial followed by the noose is the end of all Singaporean drug dealers.

1128 Zimriel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:47:25pm

re: #1115 Sharmuta

The war on drugs is a quagmire. We waste a lot of resources going after soft drugs like marijuana. Those resources should be spent going after hard drugs and other violent criminals. Pot heads just want to smoke their weed and be left alone. A couple of police officers I've spoke to about it think alcohol is a bigger problem, telling me they've never take a call to go to some pot head's house because he's beating his wife. If they are otherwise not infringing on the rights of others- I think pot smokers should be left alone.

Meanwhile- we're letting pedophiles out of jail on parole. You tell me what's so socially conservative about this.

Sharmuta, I agree with you over all of this. In the last few posts I've been trying to explain how selfish, tribal jerks of various races look at these issues. I believe that when it comes down to it, most humans are selfish, tribal jerks. In a tyranny maybe we could change human nature, and in a monarchy we could just ignore it except to smack down anyone who annoys us. In a democracy it's a majority decision as to which tribe of assholes gets to dump on us.

Until last night we had a divided system of government that prevented the majority from ruling out right. This January we will have the purest democracy we've seen since... I don't know. 1977?

1129 wltzacrsstxs  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:47:57pm

1001 -

Your post is absolute, unmitigated nonsense. Any woman in 2008 who is "pressured into having an abortion she doesn't want" is a complete wimp, and frankly, is not deserving of any human rights. Flame me all you want, but Planned Parenthood is making it's billions off college girls who don't want anybody to find out that they slept around without planning for the inevitable outcome of baby-making activity. Trust me - if someone in America was being strapped down to a gurney and forced into an abortion, it would be all over Fox News faster than you could say "dead baby."

Note to fellow American women: If you can't figure out how to get your wimpy little ass down to the local Knights of Columbus hall - Where the good Knights will put you in touch with a nice Catholic couple who will PAY YOU for your baby, then you don't deserve God's sympathy or mine. You deserve the hell that is waiting for you every morning when you wake up and realize you killed your baby.

There is a really, really simple answer to the whole abortion issue: as my grandmother used to say, you make your bed, you lay in it. Don't want a baby? Then don't engage in baby making activity. If you simply MUST have sex, try Bill Clinton-style sex.

1130 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:48:53pm

re: #1116 Thanos

The "splintering of the Republican Party" began in '05.

Here's a post I wrote about that after we lost the '06 elections.

Time to 'clean house' and get some honest political types (i know it's an oxymoron) in positions of power. Well at least folks who are not terminally morally and emotionally cripple.

1131 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:49:26pm

For me conservatism starts with the constitution, not the bible.

1132 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:49:42pm

re: #1038 Dead Sea Squirrel

And add in the Chicago thug tactics and the ACORN's massive voter fraud, for good measure.
from: mamawinger:
"I was a soldier in that fight all day yesterday. The thugs one. They bussed them into MY POLLING PLACE in Wisconsin, from Chicago. I had to deal with them from 6:45 AM till 9:30 PM last night.
Cops were called, protests were filed, poll workers were intimidated, voters were intimidated. They called the sherriff on the pastor of the church that was my polling station.
Get used to Government by THUG."

What reportage has been done on this? None, you say?

Ladies and gentlemen, we had best all hang together or we shall certainly be hanged separately...

1133 rookwood  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:50:30pm

I think the 2010 elections will be ours for the taking. Americans are, as a whole, very shortsighted and will remember that they gave the Dems all they were asking for yesterday to fix these problems...and they certainly had solutions for all the problems. No way Bambi comes out of the next two years whole. Even a qualified Commander in Chief couldn't do it. So, better on their watch, not ours. Besides, momma is gonna want to know why Bambi didn't fill her gas tank and pay her mortgage.

Having said this, we need to reorganize and "modify" our basic core values and replace the model T's with all the fresh, young and talented people we have in the wings (Lindal, Crist, Palin, Steele, etc.). These people can deliver targeted messages with style and honesty.

1134 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:50:44pm

re: #1102 SFGoth

Dunno. I'm not into vampires. I prefer a heaving bosom to a dead one.

Me too. btw sorry for associating goths with vampires. Must try to stop doing that.

1135 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:51:42pm

re: #1121 Jimmah

re: #1098 Adina in Judea

Ok, so you think embryos ARE human (from conception.) Good.

As are cheek cells.

Cheek cells aren't humans, though. Embryos are humans.

They are small, defenseless, incredibly young individual human beings.

Your cheek cells are not.

Some born, living human beings have no thought processes, though.

You would agree that they're human, but I hope you wouldn't see them a collections of tissues and organs.

A human doesn't have to have a certain level of thought to be a person.

They have to have the capacity for some sort of thought or feeling - some kind of awareness, in order to be a person.

No, they don't. People in deep comas are still human beings even if they register nothing to indicate that they are having thoughts or feelings.

...unless you see disabled people who don't have thought processes as collections of tissues and organs that can be killed without concern for their humanity.

People who through some tragedy end up in a vegetative state often have their life support switched off, if recovery is impossible. That isn't the result of a callous attitude to life, it is in recognition of the fact that in the absence of awareness the person isn't really there anymore. Being a person is dependant on more than just being alive.

They're still human beings.

Embryos are human beings who are NOT in a situation where recovery is impossible. They are human beings whose thought processes and feelings are being developed.

The main thing is that they are human beings, in contrast to what someone said earlier when claiming that they are NOT human beings.

Embryos are very young individual human beings. The youngest.

1136 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:52:04pm

re: #1129 wltzacrsstxs

Now there's an attitude that will convince a lot of women to not feel attacked and to reconsider their positions.

/

1137 Zimriel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:54:18pm

re: #1131 Thanos

For me conservatism starts with the constitution, not the bible.

For me it starts with King Charles I's last words on the scaffold: "their liberty and freedom ... is not their having a share in the government; that is nothing appertaining unto them. A subject and a sovereign are clean different things."

1138 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:54:20pm

re: #963 rightsideup

Wasn't it Benjamin Franklin who said we need a revolution every two hundred years? Perhaps he figured the Constitution (or its implementation) would be in need of recalibration by that time...

It was Thomas Jefferson.

"Every generation needs a new revolution."

And he also said:

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."

And:

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."

1139 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:55:08pm

re: #1128 Zimriel

Sharmuta, I agree with you over all of this. In the last few posts I've been trying to explain how selfish, tribal jerks of various races look at these issues. I believe that when it comes down to it, most humans are selfish, tribal jerks. In a tyranny maybe we could change human nature, and in a monarchy we could just ignore it except to smack down anyone who annoys us. In a democracy it's a majority decision as to which tribe of assholes gets to dump on us.

Until last night we had a divided system of government that prevented the majority from ruling out right. This January we will have the purest democracy we've seen since... I don't know. 1977?

Actually you are WRONG.

It's NOT a democracy. It's a REPUBLIC mate!


Significant differences.

Please educate yourself before you embarrass yourself yet again!

1140 Dotcoman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:55:10pm

re: #1073 tackle

Oh for hellsakes can we stop with that already?
He may look like a mannequin but a Christian he is.
I'm outta here!

Definitely more on the ball Christian-wise than Huckabee. That guy's touchy feely show on FNC makes me sick.

Point here is some are trying to say the RNC needs to flee from the values of the Christian Conservative base, because of the outcome; and my point is we didn't really even have a real Christian let alone a real Conservative running at all, till Palin got the call up to the majors that is.

The Liberals have been trying this gambit on Republicans for years. Even Nixon didn't understand Conservatives, desire to challenge the status quo. Nixon was apart of that generation of Republicans that thought it their job to go along to get along with the Democrat majority.

Even Obama had to run to the right after the primaries. They had to stop their feet like you just did, and demand that their guy was a Christian. Never mind that his church; worships Black Liberation Theology which has more grounding in Marxism than anything remotely connected to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

1141 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:56:07pm

re: #1113 bitterclinger_in_PA

Please please please leave your evolution out of politics. Evolution is more like a hypothesis then even a theory. Even Albert Einstein and DaVinci was a creation scientist. They believed in creationism.

It is impossible to create something from nothing in your spontaneous generation which is the foundation of evolution. That was proven 100 years ago. I could go on about carbon dating determining the age of fossils is only good up to 4000 years or that there is no evidence of random mutation between species. There are for instance no fossils of fish with wings mutating into birds over millions of years. Evolution was made up by a man on a ship ride who had an ax to grind with Christianity. I don't want to bore anyone with loads of facts discrediting evolution.

By the way did you ever hear the words in the declaration of independence "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."

Anyway professor I agree no need to mix it in politics.

This is one of the most pathetic anti-evolution diatribes I've read since ... oh ... the last anti-evolution diatribe. "Clueless" would be too kind. It's not even wrong.

1142 ConserVAtive  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:56:15pm

re: #1131 Thanos

Thanos -

Hard to believe, but the Founders inspiration for the Constitution was the Bible.

1143 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:56:16pm

re: #1131 Thanos

For me conservatism starts with the constitution, not the bible.

I agree completely. While they may cling to their Bible as much as they'd like, they need to go to church to promote it's values, not the halls of government. In fact- I believe that very idea is ensconced in the Constitution. Let me look...

Yep- there it is.

1144 bitterclinger_in_PA  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:57:25pm

re: #1124 Thanos

Bitterclinger, you are so full of shit your eyes must be brown. Please read some of the past posts on creationism here before reposting that thoroughly discredited Discovery institute and AIG propaganda.

Thanos,
I don't know either of those organizations. Man you are angry tonight. You having a bad night. I am just stating facts as I know them. Just because you had previous posts here does not make them right. I have followed LGF for 4 years and seen the past post and they prove nothing. Ease up big boy and watch your mouth!

By the way Charles I like the way you run your blog. Thanks for letting me on.

1145 Dotcoman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:57:30pm

re: #1116 Thanos

The "splintering of the Republican Party" began in '05.

Here's a post I wrote about that after we lost the '06 elections.

It's been going on long before that my friend. You're just looking at recent history, and ignoring the greater RNC past.

1146 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:58:15pm

re: #1142 ConserVAtive

They were Deists.

1147 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:59:09pm

re: #1121 Jimmah

There isn't a human being alive who didn't start out as an embryo.

It's something we all have in common. Every single one of us.

We get one chance at having a life with our own DNA and it starts in an embryonic state as a very, very young human being. This happens for everyone, even people who start out their lives in test tubes.

1148 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:59:14pm

re: #1131 Thanos

For me conservatism starts with the constitution, not the bible.

The Constitution bub. Let's put the capital C back into it. Republicans need to get past the "strict constructionist" mantra and actually teach what the hell the Constitution is. It's amazing. Most amazing document ever written. Our Founding Fathers are frankly gods. To put together something this profound is simply mind-boggling (and all the while trying stop the nascent country's slide into anarchy). It's kind of like that Trek:TOS episode. You're mouthing the words Cloud William but you don't know what they mean.

1149 vegasjew  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:59:16pm

many of the top blogs that I read are
great but they are think tanks.

the lefty blogs are work blogs they get out the money
and the vote.
after Michelle Bachmann gave Tingle Matthews
a hard time they raised a million bucks 10 bucks per shithead for her opponent, it is very impressive.

1150 Grand Poobah  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 4:59:23pm

"If the GOP decides to go in the Bobby Jindal direction (fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights), it will be committing political suicide."

Sorry, I don't buy that. The Repubs lost this election for a number of reasons:
McCain, being a 1950's liberal and nice, and naive and all that, limited himself to public funds, which was not a smart move; Obama outspent him a hell of a lot more. Secondly, Obama is extremely charismatic, something McCain isn't, not even with his own party.
Thirdly, McCain should have pointed out that he warned against the financial crisis and that these financial problems were exacerbated by Democratic legislation. Instead, he points his finger at everything else.

Plus, he didn't inspire anybody. He didn't have any real platform except, "Country First," which is nice, but it's not going to rattle any of the common people. Plus, there's the fact that McCain is old, and while that might be venerable, it's not what people felt comfortable with.

Frustrating turn of events, and we're going to go through hell. Who is going to rise up and turn the tide? Thompson? I doubt it. Guiliani? I doubt it, the guy is a bit of a weirdo. Romney? Maybe, but too many aggravating people in the Repub party don't like his religion.

I know, Ron Paul will save us.
/sarc

1151 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:00:19pm

re: #1142 ConserVAtive

Thanos -

Hard to believe, but the Founders inspiration for the Constitution was the Bible.

It was also inspired by Locke, Bacon, Aristotle, and many others. It was also near heretical at the time, overthrowing the divine right of Christian kings, and outlawing state religion.

1152 Tigger2005  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:00:31pm

re: #1061 hang a ralph

You take moral values out of your equation and you sink the country. Religion is where we got our moral values from to begin with. Man did not just all of a sudden start behaving correctly. Stop and think about where we are now. Greed got us in this financial mess we are in. Look at marriages failing and societal breakdown in general. Wow, lets all go over to the side of insanity! Charles, you think somehow taking religion out of life is going to make the world a better place then you better keep dreaming. You take that out of life and man makes up his own rules. Everyone does that which is right in his own eyes and that means anything goes.

First, Charles is not advocating "taking moral values out of the equation." He's just questioning whether they should be a political issue. Do you really think we can legislate greed or divorce away?

Second, where in the hell has Charles ever said "taking religion out of life is going to make the world a better place"? Again, he is simply questioning whether religion and morality should be part of the platform of a political party. He's not saying we shouldn't have religion and morality, but that perhaps religion and morality should be a private matter.

Third, actually, I think it's likely a system of moral values was in place long before sophisticated religions arose. It's often forgotten that for millennia people lived in tribal societies and basic rules of behavior were needed to maintain harmony and coherence within the tribe and to settle disputes. In larger urban societies where not everyone was engaged in the task of hunting, gathering, and farming, sophisticated religions developed partly to reinforce morality, since moral behavior was no longer dictated by the survival imperative.

However, people can be, and have been, educated to understand that it is in their best interest to behave morally, even if doing so is not a matter of immediate survival. And the basic rules of moral behavior that enable advanced civilizations to develop and thrive, and whose abandonment often leads to decline, are pretty self-evident. I'm not sure why people think human beings could not have discovered them on their own, through trial and error. We're not that stupid, and most of us prefer stability to chaos--even the Mongols eventually got soft. (Actually ancient peoples were probably a lot smarter than us on average, even though they lacked our vast trove of mostly useless knowledge, because the dumb people got weeded out pretty quickly.)

1153 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:00:40pm

re: #1134 Jimmah

Me too. btw sorry for associating goths with vampires. Must try to stop doing that.

Understandable. There is quite a bit of overlap. I'm more of the period throwback-type. Anyone here ever been to Dickens Fair in/near San Francisco?

1154 ConserVAtive  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:00:49pm

re: #1146 Sharmuta

True for some (Jefferson, Adams, etc.) However, most of the signers were Christians.

1155 Edouard  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:00:55pm

Social conservatism by itself is window dressing. We may agree here or there on this or that particular social-conservative issue, but if that's all that's carrying the Republican party, Republicans are toast.

National security conservatism and fiscal conservatism need to be the meat and potatoes of the republican party. Fiscal conservatism seems to have largely left the building, and many conservatives (such as I) want it back, front and center. Republicans: shrink government, stop wasting money, and get out of the way of society's producers and wealth creators.

Don't promise me a government swag-bag full of candy, I'll earn my own, thank you very much.

Conservatives also need to stand for national security. This comes from understanding what liberty is, and what free people are, vs what it isn't and what they aren't. Defend liberty and freedom, keep the forces who oppose same from wrecking us from without or from within.

Gay marriage may be a fine issue but it's way down the list, folks. At the top of the list: tighten the purse strings of the state; renew a great vision for national security and for protecting our present and future liberty. These are what Republicans must stand for and what I and many millions of Americans will vote for if given the opportunity.

1156 wltzacrsstxs  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:01:05pm

Women who f#ck around without taking responsibility for their actions are no better than the idiots who signed up for mortgages they could never, ever take back (the same people who were rightfully villified by our side as failing to take some personal responsibility). And no better than the worthless segment of our society who want to drink from the government teat, rather than taking responsibility for themselves and "learning to fish."

OT - ever seen an aborted fetus? It's kind of like little chopped up baby pieces. Little fingers here, a little skull with it's face ripped off there. Sort of like road kill, when it's all said and done.

I was pro-choice, because I was taught by society that poor, abused women who had no choice would be forced into back alleys with coat hangers by evil, bad men if abortion wasn't legal. Then I grew up. Women are the majority of college students. Women are a significant portion of the workforce. No one is "forced" into an abortion in this day and age. It's all a matter of convenience for the woman who wants to feel good now, and pay later. I defy you to prove me wrong.

1157 Peter Verkooijen  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:01:50pm

Dead thread by now, but for the record...

For me it's all about capitalism/democracy vs socialism/collectivism. I supported Giuliani as the candidate who could win over young urban (in the literal sense...) "socially progressive" voters to the Republicans.

I'm annoyed with the way heartland social conservatives lay exclusive claim to the party of Lincoln, Eisenhower and Reagan. Their search for a Real Conservative killed Giuliani's chances, split the field and gave us McCain by default.

I'm amazed how many young business people here in New York see no problem with Obama taking control over the economy. They're in for a rude awakening.

We need a party that proudly defends capitalism, the Constitution, the seperation of powers, rule of law, democracy, in short, real liberalism. If the Republican party doesn't step up, Libertarians/Ronpaulians will grab that voting block. The split vote will keep the socialist Obama Dems in power for a second term.

1158 Sol Roth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:02:25pm

that re: #668 Son of the Black Dog

Davy Crockett was a Whig.

When he lost his bid for re-election, he is said to have told the assembled crowd of constituents, "You can all go to Hell, I'm going to Texas".

We know how well that turned out.

Yo man. I'm from Texas. We don't view the defenders of the Alamo as anything less than heroes and founding fathers. If it weren't for them, Sam Houston would never had time to marshall the Texians then drag Santa Anna's supply lines out to San Jacinto and annihilate his army.

Without Crockett, Bowie, Travis, Milam et. al., there would be no Texas.

1159 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:02:54pm

re: #1061 hang a ralph

Charles, first of all I think that you are letting your hypersensitivity to religion cloud your thinking.

... Charles, you think somehow taking religion out of life is going to make the world a better place then you better keep dreaming.

You're distorting and misrepresenting everything I've written. You thin-skinned fanatics are relentless with this garbage.

1160 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:03:05pm

re: #1155 Edouard

National security conservatism and fiscal conservatism need to be the meat and potatoes of the republican party. Fiscal conservatism seems to have largely left the building, and many conservatives (such as I) want it back, front and center. Republicans: shrink government, stop wasting money, and get out of the way of society's producers and wealth creators.

Don't promise me a government swag-bag full of candy, I'll earn my own, thank you very much.

Conservatives also need to stand for national security. This comes from understanding what liberty is, and what free people are, vs what it isn't and what they aren't. Defend liberty and freedom, keep the forces who oppose same from wrecking us from without or from within.

Gay marriage may be a fine issue but it's way down the list, folks. At the top of the list: tighten the purse strings of the state; renew a great vision for national security and for protecting our present and future liberty. These are what Republicans must stand for and what I and many millions of Americans will vote for if given the opportunity.

Nice post.

1161 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:03:05pm

I remember this thread and the Soc-cons would be wise to heed this poll!

And many of the Founders were in fact Deists.

1162 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:03:37pm

FDre: #1144 bitterclinger_in_PA

Thanos,
I don't know either of those organizations. Man you are angry tonight. You having a bad night. I am just stating facts as I know them. Just because you had previous posts here does not make them right. I have followed LGF for 4 years and seen the past post and they prove nothing. Ease up big boy and watch your mouth!

By the way Charles I like the way you run your blog. Thanks for letting me on.

First, they aren't facts, they are lies and half truths, what does the good book say about false witness?

1163 lennysquiggy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:03:45pm

#1142:

Hard to believe, but the Founders inspiration for the Constitution was the Bible.

Exactly right. However, the Constitution also draws on the Magna Carta but we are not letting the Brits dictate our country's policies.

Keep the Bible out of the conservative platform but keep it in your life if that's what you want. I personally think it is a good choice to live by the Bible, but I'll be damned if I'm going to force others to do the same.

The enemy is not religion or lack thereof. The enemy is the far left and everything they represent. If we cannot agree on that, we are doomed as a party, a movement and a nation.

1164 rightsideup  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:04:01pm

re: #1120 marcusa

Like Jay Severin said on his radio show today - even though John McCain lost, conservatism did not.

1165 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:04:05pm

re: #1135 Adina in Judea

They're still human beings.

Embryos are human beings who are NOT in a situation where recovery is impossible. They are human beings whose thought processes and feelings are being developed.

The main thing is that they are human beings, in contrast to what someone said earlier when claiming that they are NOT human beings.

Embryos are very young individual human beings. The youngest.

Is an embryo which consists of a single cell a human being?

1166 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:04:34pm

re: #1129 wltzacrsstxs

1001 -
Note to fellow American women: If you can't figure out how to get your wimpy little ass down to the local Knights of Columbus hall - Where the good Knights will put you in touch with a nice Catholic couple who will PAY YOU for your baby, then you don't deserve God's sympathy or mine. You deserve the hell that is waiting for you every morning when you wake up and realize you killed your baby.

I wonder what Hindus, Buddhists, Jainists or Jews think of statements like this? Or atheists, for that matter?

It's precisely why social conservatism has no place in politics, and isn't Conservatism at all. It's an attempt to ram one particular religion down everyone's throat using the overwhelming power of government.

The United States is a large, diverse nation where - more than anywhere else on earth - people are free to conduct themselves as they see fit. Conservatives should be trying to keep it that way. They shouldn't be promoting Taliban-style religious indoctrination and oppression.

Statements like the above are fine - at a personal level. They cannot be tolerated as political doctrine.

1167 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:04:49pm

re: #1142 ConserVAtive

Thanos -

Hard to believe, but the Founders inspiration for the Constitution was the Bible.

Since when did the Bible set up a tri-partite government with checks and balances, etc.? It was not the Bible. They drew on many different sources of philosophy. The Bible was inspiration for numerous religious kingdoms in Europe. Don't kid yourself. These guys hardly fit the pious type.

1168 Tigger2005  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:04:53pm

Wow. It's quite possible I've never seen a bigger load of ignorant crap.

re: #1113 bitterclinger_in_PA

Please please please leave your evolution out of politics. Evolution is more like a hypothesis then even a theory. Even Albert Einstein and DaVinci was a creation scientist. They believed in creationism.

It is impossible to create something from nothing in your spontaneous generation which is the foundation of evolution. That was proven 100 years ago. I could go on about carbon dating determining the age of fossils is only good up to 4000 years or that there is no evidence of random mutation between species. There are for instance no fossils of fish with wings mutating into birds over millions of years. Evolution was made up by a man on a ship ride who had an ax to grind with Christianity. I don't want to bore anyone with loads of facts discrediting evolution.

By the way did you ever hear the words in the declaration of independence "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."

Anyway professor I agree no need to mix it in politics.

1169 Dotcoman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:04:55pm

re: #1146 Sharmuta

They were Deists.


That's a liberal myth.

1170 mobaby  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:06:09pm

Yes - double down. Or at least make a cogent argument. Liberal lite is not a satisfying option. Social Conservatives will abandon, liberals will go for the real thing, leaving a few malcontents fussing about in the Big Tent. They might win New Hampshire and parts of Conneticut. Which if fine, if you want the political power of a smaller less influential Libertarian party.

1171 moe katz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:06:19pm

re: #1165 Jimmah

Is an embryo which consists of a single cell a human being?

No, you must have a blastula in order for there to be a cavity into which the soul can enter.

/

1172 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:06:25pm

re: #1156 wltzacrsstxs

You must confuse me for some "pro-abortionist", which I'm not. The problem is these women have issues that you're not helping by demonizing them. If you're a Christian, shame on you. These women need compassion, for they are living with hell already. They don't need you making it worse. Why don't you pray for them.

1173 Han_Solo  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:07:12pm

SCREW THE SOCIAL BULLSHIT!


GET RID OF THE SOCIAL PEOPLE NOW! LET THEM GO VOTE CONSTITUTION PARTY OR SOMETHING.


I am sorry, but I am very very socially conservative christian, and I WANT people who just put the social issues first to LEAVE!

Politicians have VERY little influence on social issues anyway, so anyone who has a social issue as their 'ONE BIG ISSUE', need to get the hell out of the republican party and go to the Constitution party.

What these knee-jerk social conservatives have NO CLUE about is this...limited government will be the ONLY WAY they can actually have freedoms and live their lives the way they believe in.

By putting stupid social issues ahead of real issues of how our government works and what its role is...gets us big government, big spenders, people like George Bush time and time again...they are nothing but anti-abortion pro-war democrats.

I have been sick of it for a while...It has gotten to the point that the Libertarians look VERY VERY good just because they don't have to deal with these clueless feel-good issue social conservatives.

1174 rightsideup  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:07:21pm

re: #1138 rightymouse

Wise man he, that Thomas Jefferson (and Benny too!). Thanks for the correction :-).

1175 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:07:43pm

re: #1165 Jimmah

re: #1135 Adina in Judea

They're still human beings.

Embryos are human beings who are NOT in a situation where recovery is impossible. They are human beings whose thought processes and feelings are being developed.

The main thing is that they are human beings, in contrast to what someone said earlier when claiming that they are NOT human beings.

Embryos are very young individual human beings. The youngest.

Is an embryo which consists of a single cell a human being?

Yes, such an embryo is as young as human beings get.

You were once an embryo. So was I. We were all one-celled embryos.

We didn't turn into human beings later. We were humans when we had only one cell. You had your DNA in your one cell when you were young and the rest of us had ours when we were that young, too.

1176 wltzacrsstxs  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:08:32pm

Aussie ~

I agree. We need good candidates. But how do we convince anyone to run for office when they face the fate of Joe the Plumber and Sarah Palin in being smeared and demonized? If the media and the left can't find any real dirt on a candidate, they'll just make it up, post it on the internet (but it must be true! says my husband's niece. I saw it on the internet!) , repeat it enough times, and voila! It's the truth.

1177 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:08:52pm

re: #1169 Dotcoman

No- it's a soc-con myth that they were Christians.

1178 Captain Faris  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:08:54pm

As a generic Evangelical Bible teacher, I agree with Charles and not so much with my tribe.

The Republican Party has always overemphasized things that are not, in principle, core to a "conservative" platform. Sure we don't want government promoting abortion, euthanasia, atheism, homosexuality, etc. But we don't need to redirect government into prohibiting those things until we have a consensus throughout the country.

The two upcoming conferences on re-energizing the Republican party ought to focus on repairing our intellectual foundation and how to apply our principles within a diverse representative democracy. Then they ought to establish programs to spread through non-polemical resources those principles into circles frequented by independent voters; i.e. the youth.

1179 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:10:01pm

Let god take care of people who perform/get abortions. God doesn't need us humans to take her revenge for her anymore than she needs Muslim fanatics to kill kafirs for her. This "in the name of god" stuff has to stop.

1180 bitterclinger_in_PA  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:10:25pm

re: #1141 Charles

Now that is funny! See Thanos...Charles is witty not foul.

1181 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:10:35pm

re: #1178 Captain Faris

The two upcoming conferences on re-energizing the Republican party

What's this?

1182 Tigger2005  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:10:52pm

re: #1169 Dotcoman

That's a liberal myth.

Really? Source please.

1183 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:11:15pm

re: #1179 SFGoth

Let god take care of people who perform/get abortions. God doesn't need us humans to take her revenge for her anymore than she needs Muslim fanatics to kill kafirs for her. This "in the name of god" stuff has to stop.

When on Earth did the Republican Party ever support killing people because of abortion?

Never.

1184 Dotcoman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:12:52pm

I got a question for some of you Lizards; is this country a Democracy or a Republic?

1185 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:13:06pm

Charles is indeed witty, I've never professed to having any... instead I am as bluntly honest as I can be.

1186 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:13:22pm

re: #1183 Adina in Judea

When on Earth did the Republican Party ever support killing people because of abortion?

Never.

Where did I say it did? Revenge can = prison. After all, if you outlaw abortion, only outlaws will have abortions.

1187 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:13:59pm
1188 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:14:58pm

re: #1184 Dotcoman

I got a question for some of you Lizards; is this country a Democracy or a Republic?

This was already discussed with you once. It's a representative republic and that is the last I'm going to say to you on the subject, because I remember clearly what you did last time.

1189 devil in baggy pants  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:15:19pm

Just a thought:

You can't win a battle against a wrong idea by compromising with it!

1190 Sol Roth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:15:26pm

re: #1184 Dotcoman

I got a question for some of you Lizards; is this country a Democracy or a Republic?

Look through the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. See which word, Republic or Democracy you see. Or forms thereof.

1191 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:16:18pm

re: #1186 SFGoth

re: #1183 Adina in Judea

When on Earth did the Republican Party ever support killing people because of abortion?

Never.

Where did I say it did? Revenge can = prison. After all, if you outlaw abortion, only outlaws will have abortions.

When has the Republican Party ever suggested prison for women who have had abortions?

Never.

1192 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:16:33pm

re: #1175 Adina in Judea

Yes, such an embryo is as young as human beings get.

You were once an embryo. So was I. We were all one-celled embryos.

We didn't turn into human beings later. We were humans when we had only one cell. You had your DNA in your one cell when you were young and the rest of us had ours when we were that young, too.

'I' did not exist at the one celled embryo stage. 'I' came later in development. 'I' needs a brain and nervous system in order to exist.

1193 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:16:40pm

re: #1131 Thanos

For me conservatism starts with the constitution, not the bible.

Protection of liberty under the Constitution is a political stance I can support. And have supported for decades, by voting, donating, defending and supporting the Republican Party--to my personal detriment, actually, since I live and work in a liberal Democrat "community."

So, once again, Republicans devour their own entrails and kill their own wounded in response to defeat. Guess what: I think the Democrats won because they are better disciplined and more loyal to their "tribe" than we are. Barney Frank is a member in good standing of the Democrat Party. What's his name with the bathroom stall footloose stance--deserted by all.

Why are Republicans such ingrates, disloyal to their own, unwilling to defend our President, the way Democrats defended their indefensible priapic Clinton?

I defend George Bush. He is exhausted and aged and has spent his term doing all he could to keep us from any further act of horror on our soil.
He was flawed. I disagreed with him on several vital issues. He was a better President than Republicans deserved, because we have abandoned him to the jackals of the left. He can leave office knowing he did his best to protect America for terror. He loved America and served as best he could.

No, it isn't people like me that are the Republican nemesis--all I've done is give you jerks money and vote straight Republican for 30 years.

1194 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:16:56pm

"A republic, if you can keep it."

-Benjamin Franklin

1195 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:19:12pm

re: #1191 Adina in Judea

When has the Republican Party ever suggested prison for women who have had abortions?

Never.

I'm not so sure there aren't GOPers who don't support that, but why just incarcerate the doctor? After all, we incarcerate people who hire hitmen, or is are soccons just too chickenshit to put their legislation where their dogma is? I'll respect a soccon (at least for moral and intellectual consistency) who wants to incarcerate the woman who gets the abortion too. If she does it herself, then what?

1196 Dotcoman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:19:23pm

re: #1177 Sharmuta

No- it's a soc-con myth that they were Christians.

Sweety, darling, Did you even read your own previous links?

They were many things and they were Christians as well.

That deist thing is old hat, every time someone starts a conversation on Jefferson and the Separation of Church and state someone throws that out.
It's not only a myth it's a fallacy.

It's like a Creationist arguing with Charles, and suddenly blurting out tails were designed! So what? Like that's supposed to be a debate winning show stopper? You know where Charles is gonna go with that right?

1197 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:19:24pm

re: #1192 Jimmah

re: #1175 Adina in Judea

Yes, such an embryo is as young as human beings get.

You were once an embryo. So was I. We were all one-celled embryos.

We didn't turn into human beings later. We were humans when we had only one cell. You had your DNA in your one cell when you were young and the rest of us had ours when we were that young, too.

'I' did not exist at the one celled embryo stage. 'I' came later in development. 'I' needs a brain and nervous system in order to exist.

Ask your parents if they loved you when you were a very young embryo.

Pregnancy can be detected after only a couple of weeks.

Ask your parents if they didn't have love, hopes, and plans for you back then.

You were already "YOU" as an embryo - it's just that you didn't realize it yet.

Newborns don't know at first where they leave off and their mothers begin.

It takes time to figure these things out.

1198 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:20:39pm

re: #1195 SFGoth

I'll respect a soccon (at least for moral and intellectual consistency) who wants to incarcerate the woman who gets the abortion too.

You've never met one, so don't dream them up in your head.

1199 MrPaulRevere  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:20:51pm

Ace has an interesting take on social conservatism and the election: [Link: ace.mu.nu...] I tend to get verbose on this subject so I'll try to be succinct: If social conservatives want to be part of a coalition, fine by me. But be aware that coalitions can be messy things, and no one member has a veto power over a policy decision, choice of a candidate or presentation of a message.

1200 FrogMarch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:21:01pm

re: #1184 Dotcoman

I got a question for some of you Lizards; is this country a Democracy or a Republic?

We are a Constitutional Republic with Democrat institutions.
(for now - anyway)

1201 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:21:30pm

re: #1174 rightsideup

Wise man he, that Thomas Jefferson (and Benny too!). Thanks for the correction :-).

We were fortunate in that time of crisis that we had men of wisdom and vast knowledge of history and philosophy - what worked and what did not based on the essence of man's self-interest. Liberals will call that selfishness and backwardness, conservatives call that survival and progress.

1202 Peter Verkooijen  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:21:33pm

re: #1184 Dotcoman

I got a question for some of you Lizards; is this country a Democracy or a Republic?

I studied political science and to be honest, I don't remember what the difference between a democracy and a republic is. Are they even comparable entities? Mutually exclusive?

Where is this issue coming from and what are the people bringing it up trying to achieve/prove? It's kinda a losing argument to say "we're not a democracy...!", no matter what egghead theory follows.

1203 wltzacrsstxs  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:21:50pm

Sharmuta,

Compassion, my Aunt Fanny. I have no compassion for someone who would seriously consider killing their own flesh and blood. Women ought to respect themselves more than to have sex when they aren't willing to accept the consequences of that activity. But in this throw away society, it appears that my fellow females have decided that it's a lot more fun to get it on now, and get rid of any "little inconvenience" later.

Dogs at the pound get more sympathy than an innocent human life. Well, cute dogs anyway.

For those who have questioned - my first post was that the federal government has no dog in the fight concerning the legality of abortion. There is no right to privacy in the Constitution, and Roe (and Bowers, and every other USSC opinion that relies on this non-existent implied right of privacy) is absolutely, positively, wrongly decided. Abortion, gay marriage, sodomy, et al, are state matters, by virtue of the 10th amendment. I say let the people vote as they wish, and let their state judiciaries interpret their state statutes and constitutions as written. I recommend that the Republicans rebuild on the platform of getting rid of all non-essential functions the federal government has ventured into and let's go back to being a "republic." A previous poster mentioned the Dept. of Ed. It's the biggest waste of money and oxygen in D.C., and has a really, ugly, eyesore of a building sitting on prime real estate that could be sold for a tidy profit. I say let's start there, then move down the street to HHS (an equally ugly eyesore sitting on prime real estate), then ask ourselves why the Rural Electrification Project hasn't gone away after 70 years. And why Exec. Order 11246 (mandating affirmative action programs for federal contractors) hasn't gone away. These make-work programs cost my employer in the tens of thousands every year. 40 years after Title VII and with a black president-elect, can we finally repeal Exec. Order 11246?

1204 Tom on the Rez  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:21:54pm

As a conservative democrat, I have libertarian leanings. Deregulate drugs and other victimless crimes. Oppose the death penalty - the state should not have the right to kill its citizens. But abortion: That's slavery. If you can kill someone whom you find inconvenient, they are property. So I'm an abolitionist.

One hundred years from now, "Pro-choice" will be understood to be what it actually is (like other types of chattel slavery); the abhorrent murder of those who, through no fault of their own, find themselves under someone else's complete control. Abortion = Slavery.

Conservatives, of whatever type, need to stick to their moral principles.

1205 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:21:56pm

re: #1196 Dotcoman

You must think I don't remember you and your homophobic rantings months ago. Don't you patronize me with your "sweetie" crap either. In fact- please don't address me again after this, because you're on GAZE from this point.

1206 FrogMarch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:24:02pm

re: #1200 FrogMarch

We are a Constitutional Republic with Democratic institutions.
(for now - anyway)

fixed...

1207 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:24:51pm

re: #1198 Adina in Judea

You've never met one, so don't dream them up in your head.

Whom? Soccons, abortion providers, or women who have had abortions? I've met the first and third. I didn't grow up in San Francisco. In fact, at my 20 year h.s. reunion (Annandale, VA), one guy tried to convince me that the key to salvation was faith whereas I said (not to reveal my agnosticism) that it was works -- what you do (in keeping with Judaism's teleological bent). I didn't have the heart to tell him the key to salvation is actually a really good sativa cookie ;->

1208 bitterclinger_in_PA  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:25:44pm

re: #1162 Thanos

FD


First, they aren't facts, they are lies and half truths, what does the good book say about false witness?

So you are calling me a liar wow. Is that all you got. You might want to read the Bible sometime for the Truth about how we came to be on this earth. It is good reading. Certainly not by some spontaneous reaction between 2 rocks. It makes no scientific sense. Everything I said is provable and true. I don't care whether you believe it. Get over it my brother. Obviously you have an ax to grind like Darwin on creationism.

1209 Tigger2005  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:25:45pm

re: #1144 bitterclinger_in_PA

Thanos,
I don't know either of those organizations. Man you are angry tonight. You having a bad night. I am just stating facts as I know them.

You are not stating "facts" as you know them. You are just making statements about things you know nothing about.

Think about this. If evolution was really so obviously a bunch of baloney... if it was really based on "spontaneous generation" (it's not) and so forth, do you really believe millions of scientists and lots and lots of people who are far from stupid--including the Pope--would accept it as a fact?

Man. If I didn't know that most "bitter clingers" are not willfully ignorant morons like you, I could almost understand Obama's disdain for them.

1210 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:26:53pm

re: #1203 wltzacrsstxs

So you want government to fix a social ill that the religious community has failed at stopping. Good luck with that.

And I believe Jesus would show these women more compassion than you do. While I agree it's a problem of not taking personal responsibility, I find your approach is more harmful than good. You're not going to stop abortion with this rhetoric. You're only going to turn people off to republicans.

1211 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:27:01pm
1212 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:27:03pm

I'm beginning to think this post might have touched a nerve or two.

1213 Dotcoman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:28:32pm

re: #1194 Sharmuta

"A republic, if you can keep it."

-Benjamin Franklin

Good Girl! And good point too, Sharmuta.
Thanks for biting on that for me. Thought I would throw this essay out there as I came across it this morning.

A Republic, Not a Democracy

1214 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:28:41pm

re: #1212 Charles

I'm beginning to think this post might have touched a nerve or two.

You seem to excel at that. I, for one, am glad for it.

1215 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:29:51pm

re: #1197 Adina in Judea

Ask your parents if they loved you when you were a very young embryo.

Pregnancy can be detected after only a couple of weeks.

Ask your parents if they didn't have love, hopes, and plans for you back then.

You were already "YOU" as an embryo - it's just that you didn't realize it yet.

Newborns don't know at first where they leave off and their mothers begin.

It takes time to figure these things out.

I'm pretty sure that not only did 'I' not exist just because a single celled embryo existed, but my parents didn't know that single celled embryo existed either at that point. They could have had hopes and plans for 'me' even before I was conceived though, couldn't they? So really, their thoughts and feelings about the idea of me as a person is not relevant to this point.

I don't think that people should be cavalier about abortion, but I can't see any reason other that religious belief - specifically regarding the idea of 'ensoulment' - to assert that a very lowly embryo should be regarded as a person.

1216 Dotcoman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:30:01pm

Dang! did the link thingy wrong


[Link: users.law.capital.edu...]

Sorry new curved keyboard is really hosing me up.

1217 MargaretMN  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:30:40pm

You know, it's a little silly to be talking about throwing people off the bus when we just got our rear ends handed to us. If Reagan taught us anything it is that we don't win by making everybody agree with us. We win by building coalitions of people who can agree on a basic agenda. Not a maximum agenda but one that we can all agree on. Limited government suits all but a few fringe social conservatives just fine. We can leave those people behind without jettisoning a huge part of the base of the party. I don't think the numbers of libertarians will ever be so vast that they can sweep an election without other kinds of conservatives. The democrat coalition is made up of the growing number of clients of the state who need jobs or entitlements. To fight against that we need to hold on to everybody we can.

1218 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:30:48pm

re: #1207 SFGoth

SFGoth: I'll respect a soccon (at least for moral and intellectual consistency) who wants to incarcerate the woman who gets the abortion too.

Adina: You've never met one, so don't dream them up in your head.

SFGoth: Whom? Soccons, abortion providers, or women who have had abortions

Try to keep up with the conversation.

1219 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:31:13pm

re: #1157 Peter Verkooijen

Dead thread by now, but for the record...

For me it's all about capitalism/democracy vs socialism/collectivism. I supported Giuliani as the candidate who could win over young urban (in the literal sense...) "socially progressive" voters to the Republicans.

I'm annoyed with the way heartland social conservatives lay exclusive claim to the party of Lincoln, Eisenhower and Reagan. Their search for a Real Conservative killed Giuliani's chances, split the field and gave us McCain by default.

I'm amazed how many young business people here in New York see no problem with Obama taking control over the economy. They're in for a rude awakening.

We need a party that proudly defends capitalism, the Constitution, the seperation of powers, rule of law, democracy, in short, real liberalism. If the Republican party doesn't step up, Libertarians/Ronpaulians will grab that voting block. The split vote will keep the socialist Obama Dems in power for a second term.

You are right, in your final analysis.

What I fail to understand is why kicking "heartland social conservatives" in the teeth is the first response to this defeat at the polls? I'd have voted for the Republican if a mossback turtle had been the VP choice: you guys are scapegoating part of the "big tent" heaping YOUR scorn and bile just as a little added extra 'cause we never get enough of that from the media or the Democrats.

Lord love a duck.

Impossible thread.

1220 Dotcoman  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:31:40pm

re: #1214 Sharmuta

You seem to excel at that. I, for one, am glad for it.

Yeah, me too. I second what she said!

1221 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:32:47pm

re: #1194 Sharmuta

"A republic, if you can keep it."

-Benjamin Franklin

And what's so amusing about Franklin is that he was the libertine in the whole bunch.

1222 Boxy_Brown  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:34:08pm

My 2 cents? The only thing stupider than a leftist calling me a racist because I wanted to keep Obama out is a "conservative" calling me a "Rino" because I actually voted for a republican.

This whole debacle has been depressing as hell actually. I was operating under the illusion that leftists saw reality exclusively in terms of what what best suited their prejudices. Defining reality/truth by correspondence would lead someone to become more conservative and defining reality/truth by what works to make your world congruent with your beliefs (Pragmatism I guess) would lead someone to become more liberal. Indeed, I believed that was the beginning of the political evolution into 1 tribe or another.
I now think that malady is a part of the human condition and is shared by people across the political spectrum.

Bottom line: people are annoying.

1223 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:34:33pm

re: #1218 Adina in Judea

SFGoth: I'll respect a soccon (at least for moral and intellectual consistency) who wants to incarcerate the woman who gets the abortion too.

Adina: You've never met one, so don't dream them up in your head.

SFGoth: Whom? Soccons, abortion providers, or women who have had abortions. Try to keep up with the conversation.


---
I used several nouns, one being the subject, one the direct object, and one the indirect object. I don't need to be patronized by someone whose command of English grammar is marginal, at best.

1224 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:34:55pm

re: #1217 MargaretMN

I think that's the point of this thread- at least, my take on the point of this thread. What is the core principle on which we can all agree? Frankly- I think it has to be the Constitution and limited government, or we're sunk.

1225 bitterclinger_in_PA  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:35:48pm

re: #1214 Sharmuta

I am having fun with it. That is why LGF is so entertaining. Religion and Politics. I don't know why people say keep them separate.

1226 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:36:11pm

re: #1221 rightymouse

Incredible man, and at the top of my list of favorite Founders with Washington.

1227 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:37:08pm

re: #1215 Jimmah

re: #1197 Adina in Judea

Ask your parents if they loved you when you were a very young embryo.

Pregnancy can be detected after only a couple of weeks.

Ask your parents if they didn't have love, hopes, and plans for you back then.

You were already "YOU" as an embryo - it's just that you didn't realize it yet.

Newborns don't know at first where they leave off and their mothers begin.

It takes time to figure these things out.

I'm pretty sure that not only did 'I' not exist just because a single celled embryo existed, but my parents didn't know that single celled embryo existed either at that point. They could have had hopes and plans for 'me' even before I was conceived though, couldn't they? So really, their thoughts and feelings about the idea of me as a person is not relevant to this point.

Please note that I was talking about when your parents knew that you were there (as an embryo.)

Your parents may have wanted children and they may have had hopes and dreams about their possible children - but they didn't love you until you were an embryo.

At that point, they did love you (as soon as they knew you were there.)

Ask them.

I don't think that people should be cavalier about abortion, but I can't see any reason other that religious belief - specifically regarding the idea of 'ensoulment' - to assert that a very lowly embryo should be regarded as a person.

A very, very young person is a person.

It's that simple.

Being an extremely young human being doesn't make a person not human.

1228 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:37:41pm

re: #1225 bitterclinger_in_PA

I am having fun with it. That is why LGF is so entertaining. Religion and Politics. I don't know why people say keep them separate.

Ummm- the say is they're the two topics not to discuss with people.

We keep them separate because 1) it's in the Constitution and 2) people aren't interested in theocracy.

1229 moe katz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:38:12pm

re: #1226 Sharmuta

Incredible man, and at the top of my list of favorite Founders with Washington.

Then you are familiar with this essay of Franklin's, no doubt.

[Link: www.bfff.org...]

1230 Colonel Panik  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:39:19pm

re: #513 vegasjew

conservatives are going to have to find a way to engage the African American and the ever growing
Latino community or we will never win. New Mexico amd Nevada ,Colorado have enormous Latino populations. The good news, they are culturally conservative and were actually responsible for beating down homo marriage in California.
A party of white male southern Christians is not going to accomplish much on the national level.

A conservative Spanish language media would be a great aid in this regard. Rush should get some of his Miami Cuban buddies to put it together.

1231 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:39:36pm

re: #1193 Joan

I've done it 35, what of it?

1232 Tigger2005  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:40:28pm

Dotcoman,

The claim that ALL the Founding Fathers were Deists is a myth. I've rarely seen anyone make that claim. It's quite factual that SOME of the Founding Fathers were Deists. And this is an important fact when one is dealing with a Christian Reconstructionist who claims America was founded as a "Christian nation."

It's so often forgotten that our country was formed on the hard edge of the Age of Enlightenment, when analyzing and criticizing anything and everything from a rational perspective was all the rage. Probably several of the Christian Founding Fathers had rather non-literalist views of their faith.

re: #1196 Dotcoman

Sweety, darling, Did you even read your own previous links?

They were many things and they were Christians as well.

That deist thing is old hat, every time someone starts a conversation on Jefferson and the Separation of Church and state someone throws that out.
It's not only a myth it's a fallacy.

It's like a Creationist arguing with Charles, and suddenly blurting out tails were designed! So what? Like that's supposed to be a debate winning show stopper? You know where Charles is gonna go with that right?

1233 wltzacrsstxs  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:41:30pm

Sharm~

I don't think the government should decide the abortion debate. I don't think the federal government has any role in either supporting or outlawing abortion. I think the people, at the state level, should vote their conscience and make their own rules. Those who don't like it can campaign for a change, or move somewhere that people think their way.

Your criticism that I might turn off women is well-taken. The problem I see is that NO ONE will criticize poor decision-makers for fear of losing their votes. So we keep making excuses for irresponsible, wrong behavior instead of calling it out and challenging the wrong-doer to fix it. As for me, I just don't buy this "poor, put upon female crap" as if women are slaves and incapable of defending themselves from evil, evil, predatory men -- and I'm just sick of listening to it from women who want it both ways. Any woman who is "poor and put upon" in 2008 is a lazy, spineless wuss who won't take advantage of the opportunity this country offers women - which, incidentally, is unlike anywhere else in the WORLD -- and is not worthy of my respect.

How did I get so bitter? 15 years in HR, listening to people bitch about how it's their gender, their race, their national origin, not the fact that they are slackers who won't pull their weight.

~Tex

1234 jackfetch  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:41:47pm

I'd rather see a refocussing on values and ideals that are not necessarily religious in nature, but rather traditional American ideals, like self-reliance, and independant analytical thought.

I think you bring that back... and the rest will follow.

1235 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:41:50pm
1236 Opinionated  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:43:04pm

Shocking revelations on FOX just now about Palin's vast ignorance of things a third grader should know.

1237 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:43:59pm

re: #1224 Sharmuta

I think that's the point of this thread- at least, my take on the point of this thread. What is the core principle on which we can all agree? Frankly- I think it has to be the Constitution and limited government, or we're sunk.

Start with the Declaration of Independence and go from there.

That's where you'll find the core principles/ideology that founded America.

Also, they weren't just thinking of themselves, but for posterity.

The Constitution was framed after slogging out a war and they were still able to hold true to a very simple framework for government, which was to keep it as small and limited as possible.

How far have we fallen from their brilliant insight and to what extent do people look to government to coerce others to do their bidding or solve their problems?

1238 bitterclinger_in_PA  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:44:40pm

re: #1209 Tigger2005

You are not stating "facts" as you know them. You are just making statements about things you know nothing about.

Think about this. If evolution was really so obviously a bunch of baloney... if it was really based on "spontaneous generation" (it's not) and so forth, do you really believe millions of scientists and lots and lots of people who are far from stupid--including the Pope--would accept it as a fact?

Man. If I didn't know that most "bitter clingers" are not willfully ignorant morons like you, I could almost understand Obama's disdain for them.

Tigger,
Your ignorance precedes you. Read a book once in while. Try any on Darwinism. What is with the name calling? You sound like Thanos.

Charles is still the wittiest though a bit misguided on creationism.

1239 WestSea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:44:53pm

re: #1236 Opinionated

Shocking revelations on FOX just now about Palin's vast ignorance of things a third grader should know.

Examples? I'm not watching TV.

1240 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:45:08pm

re: #1223 SFGoth

re: #1218 Adina in Judea

SFGoth: I'll respect a soccon (at least for moral and intellectual consistency) who wants to incarcerate the woman who gets the abortion too.

Adina: You've never met one, so don't dream them up in your head.

SFGoth: Whom? Soccons, abortion providers, or women who have had abortions.

Adina: Try to keep up with the conversation.


---

I used several nouns, one being the subject, one the direct object, and one the indirect object. I don't need to be patronized by someone whose command of English grammar is marginal, at best.

Oh dear - do you intend to accuse me of doing an impossible sexual activity with a sexual organ I don't possess again because I made a typo in another topic that I corrected before you did?


You wrote, "I'll respect a soccon...who wants to incarcerate the woman who gets the abortion too" and I reminded you that you don't know any.

It's not rocket science to follow a conversation.

Try to figure out how (and try leaving my non-existent male sexual organ out of it this time.) Adina is a woman's name.

1241 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:45:59pm

re: #1208 bitterclinger_in_PA

Now that I have your attention, where in evolutionary biology does it tell us how life was created - since you are promulgating that lie?

Please reference a science publication on evolutionary biology that supports your false claim.

1242 Tigger2005  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:46:01pm

re: #1208 bitterclinger_in_PA

So you are calling me a liar wow. Is that all you got. You might want to read the Bible sometime for the Truth about how we came to be on this earth. It is good reading. Certainly not by some spontaneous reaction between 2 rocks. It makes no scientific sense. Everything I said is provable and true. I don't care whether you believe it. Get over it my brother. Obviously you have an ax to grind like Darwin on creationism.

Nah, you're not a liar, just a willfully ignorant moron.

1243 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:46:22pm

re: #1236 Opinionated

Shocking revelations on FOX just now about Palin's vast ignorance of things a third grader should know.

Are you serious?

1244 Star Tripper  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:46:31pm

McCain and the Republican party followed the Frum formula for this last election. Palin came in as a sop to the base and a way to generate coverage from the MSM. McCain made NO effort to court social conservatives. In fact he spent time insulting them. His whole campaign was to get independents and Democrats. Sooo, how did that work out again? To steal from Harry Truman, if you run a Democrat against a Democrat, people will vote for the Democrat every time.

1245 Captain Faris  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:46:55pm

So, the problem is this: How many Religious Right Republicans won't play ball unless the platform is openly supportive of ID in public funded science classes and dedicated to overturning Row v Wade? On the other hand, how many independents (those who determine elections such as this one) won't get onboard if those planks are in the platform?

Is there any way to influence this rift? The only likely way is to convince the Religious Right that the "compromisers" aren't Obamas in sheeps clothing. So initial talks would have to stress the 98% overlap in values between fiscal and defense conservatives and the RR. Then once they (we) are hooked on the beauty of true conservatism, mention that we won't be campaigning on ID and RvW.

Might work.

1246 Peter Verkooijen  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:47:04pm

re: #1219 Joan

...
What I fail to understand is why kicking "heartland social conservatives" in the teeth is the first response to this defeat at the polls? ...

Because I saw this would be the outcome when the primaries turned out the way they did. We couldn't get our act together and yes, I blame social conservatives for lacking perspective and pushing the Republican Party into a disastrous direction.

McCain had to work hard to win over the social conservatives, but he did nothing to win over capitalists or young ambitious urban voters - as that lame patronizing 'Not Ready to Lead...Yet' signalled.

1247 MTNester  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:47:12pm
As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win.

I don't agree. I believe we lost because there is not one high-level republican politician who can explain our agenda in a way that ignites passion and excitement in the masses. We need another "great communicator"

1248 lennysquiggy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:47:12pm

[Link: theamericanmanifesto.blogspot.com...]

Welcome to The American Manifesto.

This blog will be a place to outline and discuss the principles that must be reclaimed and embraced by the conservative movement in order to move America forward.

The answer isn't big government and the answer is not a watered down version of the principles of small government, strong defense, personal liberty and low taxes.

Conservative principles are American principles and we are not afraid to say it.

Conservative principles are based on the Constitution and not on political polls. We recognize the importance of Judeo-Christian values, but conservative values are not the exclusive property of any religion. We welcome anyone who believes in small government, strong defense, personal liberty and low taxes.

We do not hate any group of Americans and we will not accept accusations or insinuations to the contrary by the mainstream American media.

1249 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:47:31pm

re: #1227 Adina in Judea

Ask them.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to ask my dad if he loved me as an embryo. My point anyway is that other's thoughts and feelings are not relevant to the question of whether an embryo can be regarded as a person - that depends on the embryo's capacity to have thoughts and feelings.

A very, very young person is a person.

A single cell is not a very very young person - to be a person requires at the very least the capacity to have experiences. Before a brain and nervous system have developed, an organism cannot have experiences and therefore it is incorrect to regard it as a person.

1250 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:47:48pm

re: #1235 Iron Fist

You are probably right that no Republican ticket could have won this election. That is certainly true if the ticket tied itself to public financing, the way McCain did, effectively ceeding the fundraising race to the Democrats. Add to that McCain's curious reticence to use some of the important issues (read Rev. wright) and you have a tsunami that no one could have expected to overcome.

I think it says something about Obama that the margin of victory was as slim as it was. Obama never really closed the sale on himself, but neither did McCain. The coin fell heads up for Obama.

I'm just glad that the Democrats didn't get the 60 seats in the Senate.


It was a closer election than I expected, but we had a shortfall of about 7 million votes over the '04 election -- no single faction in the Republican party is responsible for all 7 million lesser votes, rather they all are. Some perhaps more than others.

1251 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:47:57pm

re: #1230 Colonel Panik

A conservative Spanish language media would be a great aid in this regard. Rush should get some of his Miami Cuban buddies to put it together.

I think Conservatives need to give up this concept that because Latinos and blacks are more socially conservative than whites, they'll vote Republican. All politics is local, and the lower classes vote their dinner plates before their morals. Preach self-empowerment, not morals.

1252 Tigger2005  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:48:40pm

re: #1238 bitterclinger_in_PA

Tigger,
Your ignorance precedes you. Read a book once in while. Try any on Darwinism. What is with the name calling? You sound like Thanos.

Charles is still the wittiest though a bit misguided on creationism.

I'm not calling you names. I'm calling you a willfully ignorant moron. It's just a fact. Deal with it, "brother."

1253 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:48:44pm
1254 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:49:30pm

re: #1233 wltzacrsstxs

Sharm~

How did I get so bitter? 15 years in HR, listening to people bitch about how it's their gender, their race, their national origin, not the fact that they are slackers who won't pull their weight.

~Tex

LOL, these days, those slackers *can't* pull their weight.

1255 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:50:16pm

re: #1233 wltzacrsstxs

I think for young women, discussions on sex need to dive into economics and the economic impact an unplanned pregnancy can have on their lives. But- this is wildly off anything I want to discuss further this evening. I'm glad though that you saw my point. It's an issue handled best by education, by entities besides the government.

Back later, Lizards.

1256 thebronze  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:51:37pm

Charlles, I think you're wrong about your original point.

When Republicans run as conservatives, they usually win.
This election wasn't a repudiation of Conservative ideas. It was a repudiation of Bush and of McCain, not Conservative ideas.

1257 Opinionated  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:51:52pm

re: #1239 WestSea

Examples? I'm not watching TV.

Watch the repeat of O'Reilly at about 40 past the hour.

She couldn't name the countries in North America.

She believed Africa was a country and South Africa a part of that country.

Much more.

This is all from the McCain campaign.

1258 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:51:54pm

Bitterclinger: Did Darwin say how life began? What religion was Darwin? How old do you think the grand canyon is? What about those woodpecker tongues?

1259 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:52:19pm

re: #1226 Sharmuta

Incredible man, and at the top of my list of favorite Founders with Washington.

At the time, he was quite the individualist. Had a kid out of wedlock and didn't marry Deborah Read, his common-law wife.

Still, his intellectual contributions were such that he was able to influence Adams and Jefferson despite their distaste for his personal life and politically correct leanings, especially when they were in France together.

1260 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:52:34pm

re: #1041 Adina in Judea

Your hair does NOT have its own DNA. It has yours.

As for your arm, it does NOT have the properties of a separate living being.

Neither do eggs and sperm. They also only have HALF the necessary DNA.

My question is too difficult for some here.

Identical twins share the same DNA; is only one of them human? And if you clone that hair or cell DNA, you can make another you - just like a younger identical twin.

But I cannot be persuaded by a chemical definition of personhood, which is what an appeal to DNA ultimately is. And I cannot see fertilized embryos as potential human beings so much as possible future human beings - because many of those possibilities are not subsequently actualized even without abortion, and the word potential implies that eventual actualization is inevitable.

Fully a third of pregnancies are miscarried. This renders God or Nature, whichever you prefer, far and away the world's most prolific abortionist. So is the divine mistake to abort pregnancies, or is it to allow them to happen in the first place, for which miscarriage becomes a cosmic correction?

When it comes down to whether a living, breathing, consciously self-aware actual present human being, with her own unique history, memories, and network of human relationships, or an aggregation of cells that might possibly become a future human being, has the supervenient rights, I'm going to side with the actual present human being over the possibly future one every time. Which is why I am in favor of women retaining the right to opt for abortion up until the point of fetal viability, where one can credibly argue that we are then speaking of two actual and present human beings.

Choice means that one is neither required to abort nor required to carry an early pregnancy to term. You don't believe in abortion? Don't have one. But don't endeavor to use the force of the machinery of the state to coercively impose your personal beliefs on unwilling others who do not share them. Don't try to change the US into a Chinese doppelganger that governmentally outlaws abortions rather than requiring them, but still, like China, allows no choice of alternatives.

Only in totalitarianisms and theocracies are all actions either mandated or forbidden. It is in constitutional democracies that alternatives and choices appear.

1261 Opinionated  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:52:50pm

re: #1243 Adina in Judea

Are you serious?

Unfortunately.

1262 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:53:02pm

re: #1240 Adina in Judea

Oh dear - do you intend to accuse me of doing an impossible sexual activity with a sexual organ I don't possess again because I made a typo in another topic that I corrected before you did?


You wrote, "I'll respect a soccon...who wants to incarcerate the woman who gets the abortion too" and I reminded you that you don't know any.

It's not rocket science to follow a conversation.

Try to figure out how (and try leaving my non-existent male sexual organ out of it this time.) Adina is a woman's name.


Huh? Where did I reference gender? You could have been referring to the soccon, the woman who has the abortion, or the abortion (provider). How do I know if all you say is, "you've never met one"? Adina may be your name and you're female, but I know a guy named Vadia, and we all know a boy named Sue. You're apparently the one with the penis fixation.

1263 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:53:47pm
1264 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:54:30pm

re: #1249 Jimmah

re: #1227 Adina in Judea

Ask them.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to ask my dad if he loved me as an embryo. My point anyway is that other's thoughts and feelings are not relevant to the question of whether an embryo can be regarded as a person - that depends on the embryo's capacity to have thoughts and feelings.

A person who has unique DNA (except for his or her identical twin person or persons) is a human being whether you like it or not.

A very, very young person is a person.

A single cell is not a very very young person - to be a person requires at the very least the capacity to have experiences. Before a brain and nervous system have developed, an organism cannot have experiences and therefore it is incorrect to regard it as a person.

You were a very, very young person when you were an embryo.

Every person dead or alive today started out as an embryo, which is a very young person. It's where our lives ALL begin as human beings.

An embryo doesn't "switch" to a human being the first time it kicks and finds out that there's something there to kick. ("Who knew?") It was already a very young human before it moved.

1265 bitterclinger_in_PA  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:54:51pm

re: #1241 Thanos

Now that I have your attention, where in evolutionary biology does it tell us how life was created - since you are promulgating that lie?

Please reference a science publication on evolutionary biology that supports your false claim.

My friend it is called the Bible in Genesis the first book. Pick it up you might learn something and maybe you will get saved. I don't believe in evolution because it is nonsense ala Darwin.

1266 greggriffith  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:55:49pm

I just don't have the time to read 1,200 comments, and I'm assuming what I'm about to say has already been said by others, but on the small chance it hasn't, here goes:

Charles, I think you're wrong about your assertion that the election was, as much as anything, a referendum on social conservatism, and here's why:

1. Of the examples you list - fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights:

- fundamental Christianity was simple not an issue;

- creationism was only mentioned in passing, you gave it more attention than probably anyone, and even you largely dismissed concern over Palin's position on it as overblown;

- John McCain is anything but hard-line anti-abortion. He changed his position on stem cell research, for example, fairly late in the grand scheme of things. Conservatives certainly cannot win with abortion as the lead issue (Ace has a good piece on this right now), but even more certainly, they cannot be pro-choice and expect to consolidate the conservative base, as Giuliani proved. McCain and Palin were hardly pushing a "hard-line anti-abortion" line by saying - without equivocation - that life begins at conception, which is pretty much all they said about it that lingered in the public's memory.

- "aggressively anti-gay rights" is neither something McCain/Palin stood on, nor something from which future Republicans should run. Defining marriage as the union between one man and woman is hardly a radical position; indeed, as we saw in Florida, Arizona and even California, it is what the majority of voters believe it to be. Given the fact that ballot measures defining marriage this way have a perfect 30-for-30 record so far, if one were really going to take a steely-eyed look at which issues win and which ones don't, you'd have to rank this one pretty high. Only, you don't call it "anti-gay," of course; you call it "pro-family," which is not only more palatable but also the truth, and not something that has so far been shown to drive voters away from your party.

1267 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:55:59pm

re: #1260 Salamantis

Identical twins share the same DNA; is only one of them human? And if you clone that hair or cell DNA, you can make another you - just like a younger identical twin.

Elsewhere in the thread (several times) I made mention of identical twins, triplets, etc, being human beings although they do have the same DNA.

I covered this already many times.

I didn't read the rest of your post.

You're not in tune with the conversation.

1268 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:56:45pm

re: #1208 bitterclinger_in_PA

So you are calling me a liar wow. Is that all you got. You might want to read the Bible sometime for the Truth about how we came to be on this earth. It is good reading. Certainly not by some spontaneous reaction between 2 rocks. It makes no scientific sense. Everything I said is provable and true. I don't care whether you believe it. Get over it my brother. Obviously you have an ax to grind like Darwin on creationism.

I'm reading the bible just now. Just finished 'Exodus'. I have to say though, it isn't too convincing as a factual account of the earth's history. And when I say that, I'm using collossal understatement.

1269 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:57:04pm

re: #1261 Opinionated

re: #1243 Adina in Judea

Are you serious?

Unfortunately.

Well, Fox is balanced.

They have to cover the sexist pig AND the non-sexist pig viewpoint.

Apparently, it's their turn to be the sexist pigs tonight.

1270 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:57:29pm

Question: would you rather know whether there is intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe or whether there is a divine deity? I'd prefer to know whether there is intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe because if there isn't, there is a divine deity.

1271 WestSea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:58:13pm

re: #1257 Opinionated

Watch the repeat of O'Reilly at about 40 past the hour.

She couldn't name the countries in North America.

She believed Africa was a country and South Africa a part of that country.

Much more.

This is all from the McCain campaign.

I don't think she's an intellectual by any means; not well read; not a deep thinker. However, she's a pretty sharp cookie who can learn pretty quick. When it came to the energy issues in Alaska she went to the right people, learned the issues; and was determined to push through the gas pipeline and the royalty deal with the oil companies. She connected very well with the blue collar; religious right; and farmers in rural America during the campaign. I'm not completely sold on her however.

1272 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:58:32pm

re: #1268 Jimmah

I'm reading the bible just now. Just finished 'Exodus'. I have to say though, it isn't too convincing as a factual account of the earth's history. And when I say that, I'm using collossal understatement.

The Jewish Bible isn't a history book.

1273 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 5:58:38pm
1274 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:00:08pm

re: #1265 bitterclinger_in_PA

So you can't point out where evolution states how life started and would rather proselityze. It's your claim, this is LGF, we fact check your ass. So far you've made assertions and provided zero proof. Please do so or retract the lie.

1275 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:00:50pm

re: #1262 SFGoth

Huh? Where did I reference gender?

Took me while that one, but I think I've figured it out.

I don't need to be patronized

Srsly...

1276 greggriffith  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:01:01pm

(There is no point #2... it got sucked by one the paragraphs in #1. I'll try to pay more attention next time) :P

1277 moe katz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:01:25pm

re: #1270 SFGoth

I'd prefer to know whether there is intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe because if there isn't, there is a divine deity.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whiz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light you know
Twelve million miles a minute and that's the fastest speed there is
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure
How amazingly unlikely is your birth
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
Because there's bugger all down here on Earth

1278 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:01:58pm

re: #1272 Adina in Judea

The Jewish Bible isn't a history book.

Tell it to bitterclinger PA.

1279 Tigger2005  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:02:20pm

Give it up, Thanos, this is not someone you can reason with. The man takes pride in his ignorance. It's a basic aspect of his self-image and identity.

Unless, of course, you're having fun beating your head against a brick wall.

re: #1241 Thanos

Now that I have your attention, where in evolutionary biology does it tell us how life was created - since you are promulgating that lie?

Please reference a science publication on evolutionary biology that supports your false claim.

1280 Ninja337  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:02:30pm

Social Conservatives are otherwise known as the GOP base. Without them there is no Republican Party.

1281 Opinionated  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:03:15pm

re: #1269 Adina in Judea

Well, Fox is balanced.

They have to cover the sexist pig AND the non-sexist pig viewpoint.

Apparently, it's their turn to be the sexist pigs tonight.

See if you repeat that after you watch the clip.

Seems it was on FOX earlier and it is already on- line.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

1282 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:03:21pm

Nice. Another person pops up telling me I'm obsessed about creationism, and deciding they know better than me how to run LGF.

If you can't comment without being a rude asshole, your account is going to be history. I hope that's clear enough.

1283 bitterclinger_in_PA  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:04:11pm

re: #1265 bitterclinger_in_PA

My friend it is called the Bible in Genesis the first book. Pick it up you might learn something and maybe you will get saved. I don't believe in evolution because it is nonsense ala Darwin.

Thanos like I said any fossils found can be only proven with accuracy up to 4000 years through carbon dating. We live on a young earth and sun less than 10000 years many scientists say. I don't know anything about the G Canyon or the woodpecker etc.

I got to run. I am sure I will see you on sometime. It was a spirited debate. later

1284 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:04:33pm

re: #1279 Tigger2005

I'm having fun :)

1285 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:04:35pm

re: #1262 SFGoth

Huh? Where did I reference gender?

You really don't follow conversations.

AS I SAID IN THIS TOPIC, you suggested IN AN EARLIER TOPIC that I was performing an impossible sexual activity on myself with a sexual organ I don't possess.

You wrote it here:

Look for the word that starts with "fel..."

You wrote this after I had corrected a typo from one of my posts.

You won't be able to follow any of this at all, though.

1286 Hobbes  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:05:00pm

re: #324 mcangus1

LGF is wrong on all accounts. We lost for several reasons. Outspent 2:1. Extremely bias media. Poor campaign by McCain. The other major cause and I believe this to be the major cause of our loss was it is getting harder to tell a Republican from a Democrat! If we move close to the left then it will be impossible to distinguish between the two parties.

Lets run Ronald Reagan (Ronald in a skirt - Sarah) and well take it all.

Finally, if moving to left is the means to success then explain how ultra liberal California voted to ban gay marriage?

Can't deny that fact!

PS I do love this website and normally agree with it. this and its anti Intelligent Design position are my only points of contention.

It's as though I just wrote this!

1287 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:05:19pm

Well folks, and all you hot Jewesses, it's been fun but I have a dinner date. Since she eats meat, I'll bring an '03 cab.

1288 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:06:12pm

re: #1283 bitterclinger_in_PA

I knew you would run. Carbon dating is just one method, there are myriad other methods that all tend to agree. Using just one method to date a fossil hasn't been considered kosher for decades, please get a clue.

1289 rightymouse  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:06:24pm

re: #1253 Iron Fist

Far enough that it took two hundred years before the Supreme Court would hand down a decision that said the Founders really meant it when they wrote the Second Amendment. One irony of this is that the pro-abortion crowd quite often are opposed to that very basic principle while defending a decision relying on the penumbras and emmanations of the Constution.

I presume you're talking about Roe v. Wade?
The Supreme Court was not intended to legislate from the bench.
Any time the force of government is used by any group to enforce their social political agenda, they better be prepared that it may ricochet like a boomerang.

1290 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:06:48pm

re: #1281 Opinionated

re: #1269 Adina in Judea

Well, Fox is balanced.

They have to cover the sexist pig AND the non-sexist pig viewpoint.

Apparently, it's their turn to be the sexist pigs tonight.

See if you repeat that after you watch the clip.

Seems it was on FOX earlier and it is already on- line.

Sarah Palin is a college graduate.

If the McCain campaign and Fox are trying to destroy her now with crap like this, then they are both acting like sexist pigs.

1291 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:07:57pm

re: #1236 Opinionated

Shocking revelations on FOX just now about Palin's vast ignorance of things a third grader should know.

I caught some of that but I got the impression they were allegations by the McCain people who were critical of McCain's decision to pick her in the first place. Not that it's not true, just that it didn't sound like there was proof.

1292 SFGoth  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:08:18pm

re: #1285 Adina in Judea

You really don't follow conversations.

AS I SAID IN THIS TOPIC, you suggested IN AN EARLIER TOPIC that I was performing an impossible sexual activity on myself with a sexual organ I don't possess.

You wrote it here:

Look for the word that starts with "fel..."

You wrote this after I had corrected a typo from one of my posts.

You won't be able to follow any of this at all, though.

Great! She uses her super power -- female logic.

1293 Opinionated  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:10:43pm

re: #1290 Adina in Judea

Sarah Palin is a college graduate.

If the McCain campaign and Fox are trying to destroy her now with crap like this, then they are both acting like sexist pigs.

I get the "I love Sarah" bit, I hear it from the women in my family.

If she didn't know that Africa was a continent or could name the three countries in North America, and yet you can still defend her pick to be a heartbeat (an old heartbeat) from the Presidency, then something is seriously wrong somewhere.

1294 Opinionated  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:12:05pm

re: #1291 Salem

I caught some of that but I got the impression they were allegations by the McCain people who were critical of McCain's decision to pick her in the first place. Not that it's not true, just that it didn't sound like there was proof.

It seems to come from her handlers.

Also Carl Cameron was sitting on this until after the election.

1295 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:12:57pm

re: #1292 SFGoth

Great! She uses her super power -- female logic.

Providing evidence of what you did makes you uncomfortable, obviously.

As well it should.

1296 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:13:16pm

re: #61 CofactorMatrix

I am sympathetic to the position that the government can't legislate morality. We outlaw murder, not because it's evil (which, of course it is), but because we risk complete chaos if we don't act to curtail it. We outlaw theft because the financial system degenerates without strong property rights, not because theft is immoral (which, again, it is). Loyalty at the point of a gun is no loyalty at all, and likewise, morality at the point of a gun is not morality.

So let's wind back government's role, especially the federal government, to maintaining social order, property rights, and the military, and that's it. For local government, it may be a bit different: If certain localities want to legislate the color of your front door and you don't like it, you can still move to a place where the rules are more to your liking. But how can we escape crushing, oppressive taxation, and attempts to legislate what we say, think and believe when that form of enslavement comes from the federal government? Not everybody has the option to leave the country.

I know I've come on this way after it's gone well past 1000 posts, so there's a very good chance someone's already touched on this, but...

The phrase "legislating morality" does not mean what most people today think it means. It is not talking so much about setting laws against the doing of bad and evil things as it is about the fact that one cannot, through the force of law, cause the evil that is in one's heart to go away.

"You cannot legislate morality" in fact means that, if there is evil intent in the heart of a man -- say, to rape girls or to steal money at gunpoint from his neighbors -- that we cannot, by legal fiat, cause that desire to do evil to disappear out of the heart of that man. We cannot, by definition, cause through the means of law, magically, a person to become a moral person.

To put it another way, lawmakers cannot wave a magic wand that causes evil to leave the hearts of man. They can make laws that say Don't Murder, Don't Steal, Don't Rape, and so on... but those are behavioral laws, they are not laws that cause the DESIRE to murder, steal, or rape to disappear out of the THOUGHTS of a man.

"You can't legislate morality" was originally meant in the same sense as "You can't walk through walls," or "You can't get blood from a turnip," but people have migrated the meaning of "legislate morality" from the meaning of causing a person to BECOME moral by nature, to the ACT of making laws ABOUT moral things... such AS murder, theft, rape, and so on.

They've mutated them meaning of "You can't legislate morality" from being a statement of observation, of scientific fact, over to being a commandment: Thou Shalt Not Legislate Morality! "How dare you try to tell ME what I can and cannot do! Why, your morals aren't my morals. Who are YOU to force YOUR moral views on ME!?"

So now "You can't legislate morality" has been mutated into something it was never meant to be, and in fact is being used now as a bludgeon to wrongly bang people over the head in order to bring about libertine "freedoms" that society was never meant to have.

1297 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:14:47pm

re: #1293 Opinionated

Got a link for those assertions?

1298 moe katz  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:15:09pm

I hope SF Goth prints out his post about "female logic" and brings it with him on his dinner date tonight. Should make for good dinnertime conversation.

1299 SagamoreGal  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:15:28pm

Suggested quick buh-byes from the Republican party for a good-old fashioned cleansin':

- Karl Rove -nothing screams "Dubya" more than this man. The media will never let us forget it. Welcome Back Newt!
- No more Bushes. Jeb, stay fat and happy in your biz career in So Fla.
- New England Republicans (see above). They died out as a vital force in this party about the time Henry Cabot Lodge died in the '20's. Theodore Roosevelt took the Midwestern and Western Republicans (and a few fellower NY'ers) and formed the BullMoose Party and crushed the New England Republicans and one important Midwestern, William Taft, in the 1912 election but lost to our most racist president, Wilson.

Are Olympia Snowe and Chris Shays really the only Republicans we've had from there in years? 'Nuff said. We're dead in this area of the country. We can easily survive w/out New England. Population expands or changes only when Somalian refugees move in or Tax refugees from Taxituschetts move to NH or ME. They're too precious by half, rarely send their children off to fight for our country, and they practice their faiths in mostly Presbyterian and Episcoplian churches (won't handle a snake in church but I bet their minister will proudly voice his/her pro-"Palestine" views from the pulpit).

Anyway, we've always got Joe Liebermann!

- Ted Stevens. Give Sarah time. He's about to become moose meat for her.
- The RNC "farm league" director. Fire him tonight. The Dems had and still have the Yankee organization of finding the non-scary young faces to run on major state levels and for U.S. Congress. We're in the bush leagues, by comparison.
- Condi Rice. If you're an Israeli living within range of the daily rocket fire, these two words must send shivers up your spine.
- The major player haters in this party against hard-working Mexicans who had done the crappy but essential work that you didn't raise your kids to do for $9 or $10 an hour. Turn off Rush and his hard-core hatred of Mexicans and get to know a Mexican or two. You'll find they're probably as family oriented and churchgoing than many of your Anglo friends. Next time the economy booms again, you'll need them to pave your roads and tar your roof in 110 degree temps.
-Maybe the end of the Bush era and Pappy Bush nearing the end of his days will mean there will be NO Republican who has any ties to any Saudi royal family member. Let's let the Dems be the only ones who continue to sleep with these camel jockeys and warriors of hatred.

-Peggy Noonan. You can remove Reagan's d--k from your mouth darlin' Peggy. She probably has a Victorian locket of his hair taped to her bra. One fucked up broad.

1300 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:15:33pm

re: #1294 Opinionated

re: #1291 Salem

I caught some of that but I got the impression they were allegations by the McCain people who were critical of McCain's decision to pick her in the first place. Not that it's not true, just that it didn't sound like there was proof.

It seems to come from her handlers.

They're the jerks, then.

Sarah Palin is a college graduate.

If they want to destroy her now, they can go to hell, as far as I'm concerned.

1301 chukardog  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:17:33pm

I couldn't disagree more. The fact that ultra liberal California just voted to ban gay marriage is proof. Stick to your values and don't waver just because you're afraid people wont like you. I'm not religious but gay Marriage is the biggest load of bullshit Ive ever heard.
I'm not religious, but abortion is just about the most heinous thing I can think of. This shit is wrong, dint let the PC ultra liberal media brainwash you into thinking it is. Have a child and tell me abortion is about a women's "reproductive rights". Fuck that, its a child. Sex is for adults who are responsible enough for the consequences. the 60's caused untold damage on this country and the biggest travesty is our utter disregard for the most innocent and helpless of human life. Being a conservative means being responsible for your actions, killing a baby because you couldn't keep your dick in your pants is the height of irresponsibility.

1302 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:17:59pm
1303 Outrider  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:21:24pm

re: #1166 SixDegrees

I wonder what Hindus, Buddhists, Jainists or Jews think of statements like this? Or atheists, for that matter?

It's precisely why social conservatism has no place in politics, and isn't Conservatism at all. It's an attempt to ram one particular religion down everyone's throat using the overwhelming power of government.

The United States is a large, diverse nation where - more than anywhere else on earth - people are free to conduct themselves as they see fit. Conservatives should be trying to keep it that way. They shouldn't be promoting Taliban-style religious indoctrination and oppression.

Statements like the above are fine - at a personal level. They cannot be tolerated as political doctrine.

Social conservatism and religious conservatism are two different animals and one can exist without the other. Conservatives do not oppose progress but a Conservative does not believe in change merely for social experimentation. We don't believe the world should be changed through government forces. Don't confuse Christian (or Islamic) fundamentalism with social conservatism. At least learn what this belief structure is before you blindly confuse it with what you are condemning.

1304 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:21:58pm

re: #1293 Opinionated

re: #1290 Adina in Judea

Sarah Palin is a college graduate.

If the McCain campaign and Fox are trying to destroy her now with crap like this, then they are both acting like sexist pigs.

I get the "I love Sarah" bit, I hear it from the women in my family.

If she didn't know that Africa was a continent or could name the three countries in North America, and yet you can still defend her pick to be a heartbeat (an old heartbeat) from the Presidency, then something is seriously wrong somewhere.

I don't accept smears like that. I've heard her speak.

She gave her Convention speech almost entirely with a teleprompter that wasn't being operated properly, which is why she gave most of it while looking directly at the camera. Either she has a photographic memory for speeches (which would give her a photographic memory for other milder items of information) or she's being smeared.

I'm a woman with a Masters Degree who was accused in this topic of not knowing English grammar because I made a typo (and corrected it myself immediately - in the next numerical post) in another topic.

I don't immediately believe it when someone claims that a woman who is a college graduate doesn't know third grade geography.

It's just one of those things that happens to women even in the 21st Century.

Even Republicans can do it at times, unfortunately.

1305 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:22:30pm

re: #1280 Ninja337

Social Conservatives are otherwise known as the GOP base. Without them there is no Republican Party.

People keep saying this, but I am not seeing the evidence to support it. Two of the three states that voted to ban gay marriage (a supposedly 'social conservative' position) also voted in favor of BHO's obviously liberal agenda.

So, maybe in those states it was not 'social conservatives' voting but democrats that are bigoted against gays. Or, maybe it was 'social conservatives' voting to ban gay marriage, and those 'social conservatives' are actually a larger part of the Democrat base. Either way, these 'social conservatives' strike me as not being all that conservative if they are voting for BHO, and they are certainly not the base of the GOP that some seem to think they are.

I do not think that the Republicans need to purge their so-called 'social conservatives' from the party They are more than welcome to participate as far as I am concerned, but they need to understand that they do not own the R. party, that comprise is a big part of politics, and that they should learn to accept half a loaf of bread rather than demanding all or nothing.

And seriously, the term 'social conservative' as it is used is an oxymoron. Can someone explain how using the force of gov't to dictate how people live their private lives is a conservative value?

1306 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:22:51pm

re: #1264 Adina in Judea

Skipping the parts of your post that just repeated your earlier statements.

An embryo doesn't "switch" to a human being the first time it kicks and finds out that there's something there to kick. ("Who knew?") It was already a very young human before it moved.

I am calling a person a conscious human being. You are calling a person anything to which the term 'human' can be assigned, including a single cell.

To assert personhood before a brain and nervous system have developed is absurd, from a scientific point of view. But not from a religious point of view. Do you believe that a soul takes up residence in an embryo at the moment of fertilization?

1307 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:22:58pm

re: #1113 bitterclinger_in_PA

Please please please leave your evolution out of politics. Evolution is more like a hypothesis then even a theory. Even Albert Einstein and DaVinci was a creation scientist. They believed in creationism.

It is impossible to create something from nothing in your spontaneous generation which is the foundation of evolution. That was proven 100 years ago. I could go on about carbon dating determining the age of fossils is only good up to 4000 years or that there is no evidence of random mutation between species. There are for instance no fossils of fish with wings mutating into birds over millions of years. Evolution was made up by a man on a ship ride who had an ax to grind with Christianity. I don't want to bore anyone with loads of facts discrediting evolution.

By the way did you ever hear the words in the declaration of independence "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."

Anyway professor I agree no need to mix it in politics.

You forgot your sarc tag. I can't believe you could actually be this clueless about so many things.

Evolution is the most-corroborated theory since Einstein's Theory of Relativity, with reams of empirical data supporting it and none contradicting it - and a theory in scientific parlance is much stronger than the mere whim connotation given the word in common discourse. And Einstein wasn't even a Theist, much less a creationist. Da Vinci was born waay before Charles Darwin was even born, and thus couldn't have read his book. I'm sure that Isaac Newton didn't believe in e=mc2, either.

The elements were already present on earth, so the something-out-of-nothing canard is false; all that was required was for them to somehow find their way into a self-replicating configuration. But that initial happening isn't evolutionary theory, it's origins of life theory. Evolutionary theory is what happens when a high-but not-perfect-copying-fidelity population of living organisms is confronted with a challenges and opportunities of a differentially selecting environment.

Fossils millions, or even billions, of years old can be, and have been, carbon dated to within a few percentile points.

As far as mutations, we have series of transitional forms showing how fish emerged from the sea and became land-dwellers, and how, much later, some mammals returned to the sea and became whales.

Darwin was Christian for most of his life, and studied at seminary in his youth. His faith was shaken not by his theory, but by the untimely death of his beloved daughter long after Origin of Species was published.

And if you have credible and irrefutable empirical facts that discredit evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection, I urge you to get them published in a peer-reviewed journal, and send a copy of the article to the Nobel Prize committee so you can win your award.

1308 lennysquiggy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:23:03pm

#1282:

Charles, are you referring to me (#1248)?

I'm not a Creatonist and I don't think I can run LGF better than you. I just posted that link b/c I want to try to outline this topic in greater detail over the coming weeks and months.

Sorry if I offended.

1309 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:23:28pm

re: #1298 moe katz

I hope SF Goth prints out his post about "female logic" and brings it with him on his dinner date tonight. Should make for good dinnertime conversation.

No kidding! :)

1310 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:26:03pm

re: #1305 Slumbering Behemoth

...that compromise is a big part of politics...

PIMF!

1311 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:28:05pm

re: #1306 Jimmah

re: #1264 Adina in Judea

Skipping the parts of your post that just repeated your earlier statements.

An embryo doesn't "switch" to a human being the first time it kicks and finds out that there's something there to kick. ("Who knew?") It was already a very young human before it moved.

I am calling a person a conscious human being. You are calling a person anything to which the term 'human' can be assigned, including a single cell.

I'm calling a human being by the name "human being" even when it's extremely young, that's all.

To assert personhood before a brain and nervous system have developed is absurd, from a scientific point of view. But not from a religious point of view. Do you believe that a soul takes up residence in an embryo at the moment of fertilization?

I've said nothing about souls.

What I'm pointing out (that can not be denied) is that embryos are very young human beings. There is no way to become person who has been born without FIRST being the very youngest version of the same human being at conception.

What I'm telling you is a scientific view.

1312 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:28:58pm

Here's a clue for the Palin haters which I know to be true as an Alaskan: You don't get 80 percent approval ratings in a state of strong individualists, libertarians, and iconoclasts by trying to force a social agenda. It's not the way political cloth is cut in Alaska, the state where marijuana is still legal.

1313 whirled peas  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:32:24pm

I'm confused. Was there a social conservative in this race? I though the Republicans lost in '06 and yesterday because they couldn't speak to the issues that all non-liberals and potential Republicans agree on: border security, less government interference (the bailout), less government spending (the social liberals in the GOP were the big spenders by coincidence, FYI), choice in education (so you don't have to send your child to a public school where they teach creation/global warming/anal sex in kindergarten/Marxism/the big bang/the little bang...). The reason Republicans can't win isn't a lack of social liberalism. It's a failure to ascertain what issues are most important to Republican voters and run candidates who have the backbone, leadership ability and communication skills to convince the voters they will fight tooth and nail to promote those issues. Get off the anti-creation pipe. Egads, with all the crap that is being taught in school, you are most afraid of having an alternative theory to the perverted nihilistic bunk the teacher's union teachers' union calls "evolution". Most of them have no idea who Darwin is. They certainly haven't read "Origin of the Species". They are intimidating Christians and teaching that humans are evil animals who are killing the good animals. It has nothing to do with either science or the Bible, and everything to do with Marxism. Why do you think the first 200 years of this country produced such great scholars, statesmen, scientist and entrepreneurs if Christianity was such a toxic poison? Scientific proficiency started to decline in the US as the Marxist teachers unions started to ascend. Marxism and unions are the threat to a good science curriculum, not Christians. We are fighting with the very people who are our natural allies. That is why we are losing and the Democrats are winning.

1314 Dasher  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:34:46pm

You can't blame the presidential loss on social conservatives. The problem was that McCain was and is no conservative. The GOP were trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. It just doesn't work.

McCain for one had no coherent plan for America. Actually It was Obama who was making the "partial" conservative message of a tax cut for 95 percent of the taxpayers (or whoever it was he was targeting).

McCain just said this is the wrong time to be raising taxes, which was true, but was not a plan in its self.

What is unsaid of the Obama plan, is he never said what this tax cut was, was it a $1, or was he really talking about another stimulus package of a $1000. It was never clear, but he got a way with it. Obama played the evil rich card, and never let up on that theme. Hope and Change, and the hope of a tax cut was all that mattered. That and Change -- meaning getting out of Iraq.

I never figured out what McCain's economic plan was other than buying down mortgages on people who made bad decisions.

It turns out that the turn out for this election was not all that spectacular. And was less that four years ago, which meant that Obama really didn't draw out the votes either.

1315 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:35:22pm

re: #1311 Adina in Judea

I've said nothing about souls.

I know, and furthermore you didn't answer when directly questioned on them.

So anyway, do you believe that a soul takes up residence in an embryo at the moment of fertilization, or not?

1316 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:38:36pm

re: #1308 lennysquiggy

#1282:

Charles, are you referring to me (#1248)?

I'm not a Creatonist and I don't think I can run LGF better than you. I just posted that link b/c I want to try to outline this topic in greater detail over the coming weeks and months.

Sorry if I offended.

I think he was referring to the post by Ballantrae on 1263.

1317 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:40:01pm

re: #1315 Jimmah

re: #1311 Adina in Judea

I've said nothing about souls.

I know, and furthermore you didn't answer when directly questioned on them.

So anyway, do you believe that a soul takes up residence in an embryo at the moment of fertilization, or not?

I prefer to stay with the science involved.

Ask a doctor or a physicist or any kind of scientist what a human being looks like when he/she is at his/her very, very youngest age.

They will tell you that human beings start out as single-celled zygotes.

Zygotes have two copies of each chromosome, one from each parent.

This is as young as human beings get, but they are definitely human beings.

1318 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:41:33pm

re: #1317 Adina in Judea

Correction on my blockquotes:

re: #1315 Jimmah

re: #1311 Adina in Judea
I've said nothing about souls.

I know, and furthermore you didn't answer when directly questioned on them.

So anyway, do you believe that a soul takes up residence in an embryo at the moment of fertilization, or not?

1319 RedVoter  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:46:00pm

re: #1167 SFGoth

Since when did the Bible set up a tri-partite government with checks and balances, etc.? It was not the Bible. They drew on many different sources of philosophy. The Bible was inspiration for numerous religious kingdoms in Europe. Don't kid yourself. These guys hardly fit the pious type.

They saw our rights a unalienable God given rights. A nation formed under divine oversight. Even Thomas Paine, a Deitist, spoke of our right as God given. Liberals tend to see these rights as social constructs instead.

"All men are endowed by their Creator with unalienable Rights" ... among them "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." - Declaration of Independence (Thomas Jefferson)

It was a State sponsored National Religion they all feared, but not Judeo-Christian values and God. Our nation was founded by believers of varying degrees and welcomes all.

1320 Aye Pod  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:49:47pm

re: #1317 Adina in Judea

I prefer to stay with the science involved.

Ask a doctor or a physicist or any kind of scientist what a human being looks like when he/she is at his/her very, very youngest age.

They will tell you that human beings start out as single-celled zygotes.

Zygotes have two copies of each chromosome, one from each parent.

This is as young as human beings get, but they are definitely human beings.

And as I have repeated several times, being able to call something human does not establish personhood. There is an infinite difference between a sentient being and a non -sentient being, a difference you are keen to deny. The weakness of this argument together with your refusal to answer on the question of ensoulment persuades me that you are trying to dress up a religious conviction as a scientific conclusion.

Anyway, that's all from me on the subject for tonight.

Nite all - have a good one.

1321 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:49:59pm

re: #1208 bitterclinger_in_PA

So you are calling me a liar wow. Is that all you got. You might want to read the Bible sometime for the Truth about how we came to be on this earth. It is good reading. Certainly not by some spontaneous reaction between 2 rocks. It makes no scientific sense. Everything I said is provable and true. I don't care whether you believe it. Get over it my brother. Obviously you have an ax to grind like Darwin on creationism.

What we have here is a genuine Genesis literalist: someone who really literally believes that God actually created the Universe and everything that's in it in 6 days a few thousand years ago, and independently created hundreds of millions of genetically related species, both existent and extinct, as is, at the same time.

1322 rightsideup  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:54:19pm

re: #1271 WestSea

She's a facilitator, a negotiator, a communicator among many other positive attributes. These are great leadership skills. Obama is a snake-in-the-grass, who plays by the 48 Laws of Power.

For a look at the psyche of people like Obama and his ilk, check out [Link: groups.msn.com...] fascinating reading. He's a bully who's made a certain class of American people his target.

1323 WestSea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:54:19pm

re: #1313 whirled peas

bang/the little bang...). the anti-creation pipe. Egads, with all the crap that is being taught in school, you are most afraid of having an alternative theory to the perverted nihilistic bunk the teacher's union teachers' union calls "evolution". Most of them have no idea who Darwin is. They certainly haven't read "Origin of the Species". They are intimidating Christians and teaching that humans are evil animals who are killing the good animals. It has nothing to do with either science or the Bible, and everything to do with Marxism. Why do you think the first 200 years of this country produced such great scholars, statesmen, scientist and entrepreneurs if Christianity was such a toxic poison? Scientific proficiency started to decline in the US as the Marxist teachers unions started to ascend. Marxism and unions are the threat to a good science curriculum, not Christians. We are fighting with the very people who are our natural allies. That is why we are losing and the Democrats are winning.

This is seriously flawed. You now label science teaching in the public schools Marxism. Evolution is not Marxism.

1324 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 6:55:32pm

re: #1231 Thanos

I've done it 35, what of it?

I haven't scapegoated libertarians, or secular conservatives, or any other Republicans for this defeat. And, "what of it" is to question the premise presented in the thread by pointing out the financial support and loyalty of social conservatives to the Republican party.

Even more important than your curt reply, or my snarling: it is a strategic blunder to blame your own first, even if you you think some of your own are to blame. Democrats never do that, ever, even if they believe their fringes to be causing problems. Ever heard them disown anyone other than Joe Lieberman? Why Joe? Why not disown Al Franken? Nope--never ever in public. Because they're smart.

So, back to the party of Rockefeller, Thanos--and maybe you guys are right to purge us. Probably the smart move, actually. But my opinion is that Republicans would gain more from learning our own version of cohesiveness and party discipline from the Democrat playbook than by ripping into one facet of the overall constituency.

If social conservatives are the problem for Republican Party, the smart move is NOT to tell them that, even though it feels really good I'm sure.

1325 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:01:45pm

re: #1320 Jimmah

re: #1317 Adina in Judea

I prefer to stay with the science involved.

Ask a doctor or a physicist or any kind of scientist what a human being looks like when he/she is at his/her very, very youngest age.

They will tell you that human beings start out as single-celled zygotes.

Zygotes have two copies of each chromosome, one from each parent.

This is as young as human beings get, but they are definitely human beings.

And as I have repeated several times, being able to call something human does not establish personhood. There is an infinite difference between a sentient being and a non -sentient being, a difference you are keen to deny.

A baby born disabled with brain deficiencies is still considered a person.

If the baby dies, the baby is given a name and a funeral, usually.

The weakness of this argument together with your refusal to answer on the question of ensoulment persuades me that you are trying to dress up a religious conviction as a scientific conclusion.

I'm refusing to allow you to drag my scientific argument into a religious one.

1326 RedVoter  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:01:51pm

re: #1321 Salamantis

What we have here is a genuine Genesis literalist: someone who really literally believes that God actually created the Universe and everything that's in it in 6 days a few thousand years ago, and independently created hundreds of millions of genetically related species, both existent and extinct, as is, at the same time.

It's his belief, I can tolerate that. Just don't censor Evolutionary Theory from our school systems and I'm fine with what others believe as far as the creaion of our world. I personally see evolution as an instrument of God.

1327 whirled peas  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:06:09pm

#1323

My whole point is that the public schools are not teaching the theory of evolution. I challenge you to find a public school science teacher who has read the "Origin of the Species" or anything written by Darwin, or any legitimate biologist, about the theory of evolution. Most Christians would be fine with someone who understands the theory and the current research teaching it as a theory in a non-political manner. That is not what is happening. What is being taught is the cult of global warming, vegetarianism, green-ism, pacifism, and Marxism. That's why choice in education is something conservatives should all agree on. Let's stop hyphenating conservatism while we're at it. We are falling prey to the divide and conquer strategy of George Soros & Co.

1328 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:08:51pm

re: #1267 Adina in Judea

Elsewhere in the thread (several times) I made mention of identical twins, triplets, etc, being human beings although they do have the same DNA.

I covered this already many times.

I didn't read the rest of your post.

You're not in tune with the conversation.

You're contending so after only reading a few lines of my lengthy post doesn't make it so. I think you just didn't want to address the issues I raised.

1329 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:09:34pm

re: #1291 Salem

I caught some of that but I got the impression they were allegations by the McCain people who were critical of McCain's decision to pick her in the first place. Not that it's not true, just that it didn't sound like there was proof.

Democrats would never have a public dogfight like this, every Democrat is a hero in public, a saint among the righteous.

McCain staffers need to be brought to heel, no matter what they really think, and get smart. Stop yapping like mongrels and ripping at Sarah Palin--she was picked, she did her best, she failed.

No good comes of this for Republicans.

God, why are we so stupid?

1330 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:10:47pm

re: #1176 wltzacrsstxs

Aussie ~

I agree. We need good candidates. But how do we convince anyone to run for office when they face the fate of Joe the Plumber and Sarah Palin in being smeared and demonized? If the media and the left can't find any real dirt on a candidate, they'll just make it up, post it on the internet (but it must be true! says my husband's niece. I saw it on the internet!) , repeat it enough times, and voila! It's the truth.

I guess the simple answer is ... That's politics as practiced in the 21st. Century. One does need perspective however. In times past politicians were murdered by their rivals even within their own parties. Don't forget also that the reason the 'benches' in the UK Westminster Parliament and most 'old colony' parliaments (Canada, Australia & New Zealand) as well, is that it was over two sword lengths apart. Sword fights did erupt during debates, hence the Sergeant at Arms armed with a large black rod to stop fights!

So in reality a bit of character assassination seems a fairly modest penalty to pay for serving. What would REALLY put the left to flight would be a hostile take over of a MAJOR news paper and media company by a Conservative owner and staff. Try some guerilla warfare helped through the web whereby 50% of the population refuses to buy products with shonky leftist advertising pedigrees. All it takes is for some group with a little money to establish a website listing blacklisting manufacturers. It hurts doubly when it hurts in the pocket!

If you are REALLY pissed then you can resort to guerilla character assassinations of leftist candidates' standing in their communities. EVERYONE has skeletons s A little bit of payback works a treat as well.!


Imagination is all it takes

1331 Junior  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:13:07pm

To blame what happened this election on social conservatism is laughable. McCain was nowhere near social conservative and wouldn't have received near 55M votes without Palin on the ticket.

Conservatism wins every time its tried. "Reaching across the isle" brings us events like 2006 and last night.

Screw bipartisanship - it has yet to win an election.

And the numerous comment about the ballot initiatives prove the point.

1332 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:15:50pm

re: #1329 Joan

Democrats would never have a public dogfight like this, every Democrat is a hero in public, a saint among the righteous.

McCain staffers need to be brought to heel, no matter what they really think, and get smart. Stop yapping like mongrels and ripping at Sarah Palin--she was picked, she did her best, she failed.

No good comes of this for Republicans.

God, why are we so stupid?

Oh, and P.S., just as an example: Scott McClellan should be permanently ostracized. Quietly, firmly, permanently shunned, never rehabilitated or forgiven or allowed to call himself a Republican. He should be Liebermanated. Solidarity, discipline, omerta.

1333 Longacre  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:16:53pm

While my job and family prevent me from actively participating in much discussion here, I've got to throw in $.02. on this one. Sure, you've got to look at what "went wrong", but this criticism doesn't hold water.

In the context of this election, I can't see that social conservative issues were front and center at all. McCain has been pro-life, but it wasn't a big part of any debate; and McCain and BHO held essentially the same view on gay rights/marriage.

Now, the thesis of the post is one that merits discussion, but I don't see how this election in any way supports the idea that "this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win." After all, Barry won CA by 20-25%, but Prop 8 passed a few points, at least.

1334 Junior  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:17:24pm

Charles writes: "If the GOP decides to go in the Bobby Jindal direction (fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights), it will be committing political suicide."

And nominating John McCain was what? Come on. Political suicide=going left on social and economic issues.

1335 Jim D  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:18:40pm

re: #1327 whirled peas

#1323
Most Christians would be fine with someone who understands the theory and the current research teaching it as a theory in a non-political manner.

Whaa? Teaching it as a theory? You mean teaching it as accepted science.
And how can it be political? There is no scientific controvery about evolution.

1336 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:18:48pm

re: #1331 Junior

Bipartisan: a Democratic Party tactic of seducing Republicans; colloquially termed "one night stand"

Solidarity
Discipline
Omerta

1337 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:19:57pm

re: #1328 Salamantis

re: #1267 Adina in Judea

Elsewhere in the thread (several times) I made mention of identical twins, triplets, etc, being human beings although they do have the same DNA.

I covered this already many times.

I didn't read the rest of your post.

You're not in tune with the conversation.

You're contending so after only reading a few lines of my lengthy post doesn't make it so. I think you just didn't want to address the issues I raised.

You were talking about things that had been discussed much, much, MUCH earlier in the thread. If you want to be part of a conversation like this, join early. Don't expect everyone to be willing to play catch-up with you.

1338 Junior  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:20:20pm

re: #1336 Joan

Bipartisan: a Democratic Party tactic of seducing Republicans; colloquially termed "one night stand"

Solidarity
Discipline
Omerta

To quote a famous pastor... they simply "ride us dirty"

1339 whirled peas  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:20:33pm

I get the sinking feeling that the Republicans are going to lose even worse in 2010 than we did in '06 and '08 since we continue to excel at nitpicking infighting, and moral superiority, and continue to suck at appealing to our own voters. Have fun nitpicking and infighting, and get used to losing.

1340 Junior  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:22:25pm

The party needs to be purged of ALL McCains - all of them. Look at the overwhelming success of 1994. Conservative platform all the way. Look at the embarrassment of moving to the left. Losing elections.

1341 hang a ralph  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:23:23pm

#1061

When I made the comment about creationism not being a part of the equation that did not refer to the discussion of it on this site. It referred to the discussion of it as far as the presidential election by the actual candidates. When Palin was chosen to be his running mate the media took to it but she said little regarding it. What I am saying in all of this is that we lost the election on key issues apart from religion. The Republican party veered away from the principles of the contract with America that brought them back into power in 1994. That was the failure that cost us seats two years ago and now. This is pretty clear.

1342 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:25:31pm

re: #1328 Salamantis

Also, you're the jerk who can't hold a discussion without down dinging nearly every post that the other person writes (as if your words will never be enough.)

I'm not into that sort of thing.

1343 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:25:57pm

re: #1334 Junior

Charles writes: "If the GOP decides to go in the Bobby Jindal direction (fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights), it will be committing political suicide."

And nominating John McCain was what? Come on. Political suicide=going left on social and economic issues.

Junior.

I agree with you in regards to the McCain nomination.


Charles like all of here is perfectly able to be an idiot anytime he wishes. And does occasionally.

He does however run quite a good blog and he should be commended for that. He is trying to maintain a position where he is not pigeon holed and neutralized by his political enemies, and seems to have been successful to date.

1344 Steve Rogers  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:26:13pm

re: #1113 bitterclinger_in_PA

Please please please leave your evolution out of politics...By the way did you ever hear the words in the declaration of independence "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.".

And "creator" is a Deist term for an impersonal creator of the universe. "Creator" is not an interchangeable term for "God" as is recognized and used by modern Christians.

Let's go to the Deists themselves, the Founding Fathers, to see what they had to say on the subject:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in...[the] superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

--Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and 3rd President of the United States

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
--Thomas Jefferson

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
--Thomas Jefferson

"...an amendment [to the Virginia Bill Establishing Religious Freedom] was proposed…inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination."
--Thomas Jefferson in his autobiography

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
--John Adams, 2nd President of the United States

"...the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
--Treaty of Peace and Friendship, ratified by the Senate during Adams' presidency

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?"
--James Madison, Father of the Constitution

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect."
--James Madison, letter to William Bradford

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, whose pamphlet, Common Sense helped spur on the American Revolution

"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience."
--James Madison in his 1789 Annals of Congress

"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
--Article VI U.S. Constitution

I could go on and one with more and more quotes from various Founding Fathers, but I'm running out of characters. Some may very well have been Christians. Fine. More power to them. But the influential ones, the ones who did the most to form our Republic were, by and large, Deists. That's a fact. Just like evolution is a fact. And those Deists formed a secular Republic where religion was a private matter among citizens, not something for the government to involve itself in.

1345 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:27:35pm

re: #1337 Adina in Judea

You were talking about things that had been discussed much, much, MUCH earlier in the thread. If you want to be part of a conversation like this, join early. Don't expect everyone to be willing to play catch-up with you.

The rest of my post, which you admitted not reading, addressed issues that had not been previously brought up, and still have not been.

1346 Freedom Fan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:27:48pm

We must continue to welcome both religious and fiscal conservatives. The Democrats say we should become more like them and everything will be fine. Let the independents vote Democrat if they feel "threatened" by folks with tradional faith. The election was 52-46% -- hardly a landslide.

Furthermore, Hispanics are natural Republicans -- religious, family-oriented and hard-working. We just need to ask for their vote and show what we have in common.

Stay true to the core philosophy of freedom. For example, the ACLU persecutes the Boy Scouts as a "religious" organization, and denies them use of public land like we do other organizations. What does that have to do with the first amendment? Personally I won't tolerate the intolerence of the left.

Anyway, the next election in two years should be easy for Republicans to revisit the sweep of 1994. After Obama and his Marxist buddies implement their 'progressive' plans, the country should be solidly in the greatest depression since 1930.

1347 Mr Secul  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:28:26pm

re: #234 y0kkles

Can't the wings of the party find common ground on social issues? Taking a right stance on social issues is important. Let's just not take a shift too far to the right.

How about pro-life with exceptions (rape, incest, life of the mother), let homosexuals do whatever they want to behind closed doors (but preserve traditional marriage), and teach evolution only in the science class (but present and debate the existence of God in philosophy class).

I'm a social conservative and that works for me, and I think it would hold the party together.

Why not have a secular contract of partnership, any couple can enter into it, its a legal/secular contract not a religious contract. The couple has legal rights and obligations. Its a legal matter so the state deals with it.

As for marriage, leave it to the individual churches as to whether they want to marry a couple or not. Each individual church can impose whatever restrictions they want.

If a church has religious objections to marrying a couple, well fine, don't marry them.

Its a religious matter so the churches deal with it.

Separation of church and state. Would that work?

1348 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:30:18pm

re: #1345 Salamantis

re: #1337 Adina in Judea

You were talking about things that had been discussed much, much, MUCH earlier in the thread. If you want to be part of a conversation like this, join early. Don't expect everyone to be willing to play catch-up with you.

The rest of my post, which you admitted not reading, addressed issues that had not been previously brought up, and still have not been.

It was too late by then.

Down ding yourself for being tardy.

1349 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:33:20pm

re: #1348 Adina in Judea

It was too late by then.

Down ding yourself for being tardy.

Down ding yourself for being chicken.

1350 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:37:25pm

re: #1349 Salamantis

I haven't down-dinged you even once.

I have argued with you (for days at times) without being petty enough to do that.

You, on the other hand, down dinged me for almost everything I said.

I have more courage in debates than you do.

1351 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:37:47pm

re: #1347 Mr Secul

Why not have a secular contract of partnership, any couple can enter into it, its a legal/secular contract not a religious contract. The couple has legal rights and obligations. Its a legal matter so the state deals with it.

As for marriage, leave it to the individual churches as to whether they want to marry a couple or not. Each individual church can impose whatever restrictions they want.

If a church has religious objections to marrying a couple, well fine, don't marry them.

Its a religious matter so the churches deal with it.

Separation of church and state. Would that work?

I agree with you 99%.

Unfortunately in the REAL world your thoughts are not so readily translated into workable legislation.


There is ALWAYS Legislative 'creep' where one faction or another pushes and pushes to see how far they can get.

You end up with the situation that is emerging in the UK where abortion is legal BUT now doctors who have moral quarms about being associated with such a philosophy are professionally vilified and FORCED to comply by the STATE .

The same goes for Christian marriage celebrants who are FORCED through threat of de-licensing to preform homosexual marriages'.

Reality is all about pushing one's particular barrow to the detriment of others, even in one's own party.

Sad but true

1352 Mad Scientist  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:40:14pm

Where does the shift to the left for social values leave an important leg of the 3 legged coalition of the GOP? The GOP has traditionally been strong and won when it emphasized the defense of country or military strength, economic strength, and social/family values. Take one leg away and the platform falls over like a two legged stool. Are the Conservative Christians being told we are not welcome in the GOP tent any more? Should we join the Constitutional Party? If Sarah Palin had not been on the ticket Obama would have won by double digits. Maybe the Conservative Christian should just shut up and not vote according to you folks.

I got ripped here the last time I posted. If I want to get Shat on I go post on the KOS site!

1353 surfinbrant  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:43:13pm

Many of these comments seem less and less conservative and more and more libertarian. The social conservatives are a critical piece to the jigsaw puzzle that currently comprises the Republican Party. We need all the pieces we can get: the fiscal cons, the social cons, the neocons, etc.

Abandoning and shucking off one part, and blaming it for the failure of the whole is fallacious. We all know that George Bush's professed Christianity was a key in getting him elected twice.

While social conservatives have their flaws, so do the other pieces of our puzzle. We must find a way to unite every piece in a flawless way that will not leave a seam.

1354 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:43:35pm

re: #1350 Adina in Judea

I haven't down-dinged you even once.

I have argued with you (for days at times) without being petty enough to do that.

You, on the other hand, down dinged me for almost everything I said.

I have more courage in debates than you do.

I do not apologize for downdinging posts with which I disagree; that's what it's for. I also upding posts that I like. Besides which, this is an attempt to divert attention from the fact that you refused to address the issues I raised.

Courage? You? HA! You are cowardly refusing to address the issues I raised in my post #1260, even though you continued to engage jimmah on the same topic (but different point).

1355 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:45:05pm

re: #1354 Salamantis

You down ding almost every single thing someone says in a long debate.

You're a consummate jerk.

1356 Steve Rogers  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:46:29pm

re: #1113 bitterclinger_in_PA

Even Albert Einstein and DaVinci was a creation scientist. They believed in creationism.

The Logical Fallacy you are committing here is called Appeal to Authority. And not only is it an appeal to authority, it is an appeal to an irrelevant authority. DaVinci? Guess what? He died long before Darwin published The Origin of Species. The two men you mentioned neither prove nor disprove evolution or creationism by being famous or an authority in their particular fields. Evolution and creationism stand and fall (respectively) on the evidence, not the words of famous people.

As for Einstein, he said, "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

It is impossible to create something from nothing in your spontaneous generation which is the foundation of evolution.


The Logical Fallacy you are committing here is the Straw Man Argument. Evolution says absolutely nothing about the origin of life. It only discusses the changes within life.

1357 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:46:58pm

re: #1352 Mad Scientist

Where does the shift to the left for social values leave an important leg of the 3 legged coalition of the GOP? The GOP has traditionally been strong and won when it emphasized the defense of country or military strength, economic strength, and social/family values. Take one leg away and the platform falls over like a two legged stool. Are the Conservative Christians being told we are not welcome in the GOP tent any more? Should we join the Constitutional Party? If Sarah Palin had not been on the ticket Obama would have won by double digits. Maybe the Conservative Christian should just shut up and not vote according to you folks.

I got ripped here the last time I posted. If I want to get Shat on I go post on the KOS site!

Well said mate.

This faction fight helps no one except the socialists.
The Social Conservatives must concentrate on pushing family values and the libertarianians here should have the sense to accommodate them if they ever want to get elected. The Social conservatives should draw a line in the sand about what philosophical tenets are non negotiable and the rest are up for compromise and consensus.

A House Divided will never stand.


Remember this guys.

Learn to compromise but hold onto your personal philosophy and remember that politics is the art of the possible!

1358 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:48:51pm

re: #1353 surfinbrant

Many of these comments seem less and less conservative and more and more libertarian. The social conservatives are a critical piece to the jigsaw puzzle that currently comprises the Republican Party. We need all the pieces we can get: the fiscal cons, the social cons, the neocons, etc.

Abandoning and shucking off one part, and blaming it for the failure of the whole is fallacious. We all know that George Bush's professed Christianity was a key in getting him elected twice.

While social conservatives have their flaws, so do the other pieces of our puzzle. We must find a way to unite every piece in a flawless way that will not leave a seam.

The Republican does have an infestation of neo-con libertarians. This fact must be addressed before the Republican party can move forward again.


Might I suggest a Rent-O-Kill operator?

1359 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:49:59pm

re: #1355 Adina in Judea

You down ding almost every single thing someone says in a long debate.

You're a consummate jerk.

Resorting to gratuitous ad hominems is a poor substitute for addressing issues. Slagging the messenger says nothing about the message, and much about the slagger. And here is my post 1260 repeated, so everybody can see the issues I raised that you refused to address:

Identical twins share the same DNA; is only one of them human? And if you clone that hair or cell DNA, you can make another you - just like a younger identical twin.

But I cannot be persuaded by a chemical definition of personhood, which is what an appeal to DNA ultimately is. And I cannot see fertilized embryos as potential human beings so much as possible future human beings - because many of those possibilities are not subsequently actualized even without abortion, and the word potential implies that eventual actualization is inevitable.

Fully a third of pregnancies are miscarried. This renders God or Nature, whichever you prefer, far and away the world's most prolific abortionist. So is the divine mistake to abort pregnancies, or is it to allow them to happen in the first place, for which miscarriage becomes a cosmic correction?

When it comes down to whether a living, breathing, consciously self-aware actual present human being, with her own unique history, memories, and network of human relationships, or an aggregation of cells that might possibly become a future human being, has the supervenient rights, I'm going to side with the actual present human being over the possibly future one every time. Which is why I am in favor of women retaining the right to opt for abortion up until the point of fetal viability, where one can credibly argue that we are then speaking of two actual and present human beings.

Choice means that one is neither required to abort nor required to carry an early pregnancy to term. You don't believe in abortion? Don't have one. But don't endeavor to use the force of the machinery of the state to coercively impose your personal beliefs on unwilling others who do not share them. Don't try to change the US into a Chinese doppelganger that governmentally outlaws abortions rather than requiring them, but still, like China, allows no choice of alternatives.

Only in totalitarianisms and theocracies are all actions either mandated or forbidden. It is in constitutional democracies that alternatives and choices appear.

1360 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:56:26pm

re: #1359 Salamantis

Identical twins share the same DNA; is only one of them human? And if you clone that hair or cell DNA, you can make another you - just like a younger identical twin.

The identical twins issue is something I had already addressed numerous times (and I included triplets, etc, too.)

1361 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 7:57:54pm

Please explain why the State mandates that if doctors are registered by the State and therefore able to practice then they are required to go against their personal philosophies and carry out abortions?


Same ... same with State licensed marriage celebrants who are FORCED by the STATE to go against their own private moral philosophies and marry homosexual couples or risk being struck off and losing their livelihoods.


It all starts out as a good idea where everyone is free to choose but soon degenerates into a socialist quagmire where the State mandates what one's particular philosophy HAS to be in order to operate in society.


Can't you see this?

Perhaps you are just a little naive and have yet to garner much experience living under a socialist yoke.

Don't worry. It's coming ... and soon!

1362 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:00:43pm

re: #1360 Adina in Judea

The identical twins issue is something I had already addressed numerous times (and I included triplets, etc, too.)

That's only the first two lines; what about the other FIVE PARAGRAPHS?

1363 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:01:46pm

re: #1362 Salamantis

Go to hell.

1364 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:02:29pm

re: #1362 Salamantis

That's only the first two lines; what about the other FIVE PARAGRAPHS?

Sounds as if you two are just going around in circles.

Perhaps you should take it outside and settle it Mano e Mano


ROTFL :)

1365 Aussie Infidel  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:03:28pm

You guys are just wasting electrons and getting pissed!

1366 tackle  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:04:52pm

re: #1140 Dotcoman
Okay, Dotcoman, I see your point. I've been a little touchy today, what with the election and trying to avoid certain vague implications that I may be a "bad" person because I supported this or that.

1367 dcbatlle  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:06:13pm

Rest assured. As a social conservative, if the party doesn't want me, I'll leave. I'm a conservative first, Republican second. I'm not going to vote for a Democrat clone party just because it has an R in front of it.

1368 Pavel49  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:06:46pm

The GOP got it's first $$ from me in my life, because of Sarah. I have been a Libertarian since '79. the Libertarians have become the LIBERALtarians, their main focus is not how to be small gov and fiscally responsible party. But to be a foil for the GOP, sapping 1-2% of their vote and insure DNC victory.

Now I hear the GOP wants to throw away 20-25%, social conservatives, of the electorate for a possible chunk of 15%, moderates, of the electorate? So if the GOP lurches left to become DEMlite and gains that whole 15% they are still down a net 10%... Perpetual second place.

If the issues that are important to me are not addressed by the GOP it can get as much $$ and as many votes as I have given the DNC over the years... None.

The religious right makes me nervous... The Stalinist left scares me spit less.

1369 Salamantis  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:07:02pm

re: #1363 Adina in Judea

Go to hell.

An excellent logical argument for your contention.

1370 Hang a Ralph  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:07:12pm

#1152:

I did not say that Charles was trying to take morality out of the picture. You see right below the comment that I said that when you take religion out of the picture you will take morality out of the picture. The one affects the other. You can say that is just my personal opinion on morality and that is fine but the loss of Christianity does affect it greatly.

Take a look around you. Europe is Post-Christian and see where it is headed. I interact with quite a few Europeans and hear lots of sad stories on where they are headed. I would encourage you to do a little research on say the UK and see where things have headed morally.

Look at what has happened in our schools and society in general as we relegate Christianity to the back burner. Look at divorce rates and social dysfunction as we get less religious. We are not too far from being Post-Christian.

I have no desire for us to suffocate people with Christianity but even with political candidates they can't get away from it. Even if a candidate leaves it at church the media will dig and force them to state their positions. Obama and Palin both faced the scrutiny. It is just as wrong to exclude Christian candidates from the process. To my knowledge Palin was not seen as forcing her beliefs on people as governor of Alaska. She had an 80% approval rating and I don't think Alaska is that religious. By the way, Jindal is not a fundamentalist. Fundamentalism as I know it is linked to Protestantism. He is a very conservative Catholic. By the way, there are times when I would have liked to choke people like Jerry Falwell for some of their crazy comments and I am a conservative Christian. To be conservative does not mean that you have to be offensive. They are in the minority.

As far as your comments on tribal people I believe you are incorrect. Have you lived around tribal types of people or really studied them? I have lived in a number of foreign countries and read about and studied these types of people. I have been out there among them. It is not all nice and peaceful as you would be led to believe. They settle disputes by killing each other. Ever heard of revenge killing? Ever studied animism? They live in fear of spirits and demons and adhere to all kinds of hideous practices. They are quite religious, only the wrong type. In fact, don't listen to me. Why don't you take a trip over to a place like Papua New Guinea and find out for yourself. You can sit down with multitudes of people who worked among these tribes and hear the hideous tales before they heard about that silly thing called Christianity. Lots of books you can read out there on the subject. Morality was defined as how the strongest defined it. Fair or not made no difference. Enough said.

1371 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:07:15pm

re: #1367 dcbatlle

Rest assured. As a social conservative, if the party doesn't want me, I'll leave. I'm a conservative first, Republican second. I'm not going to vote for a Democrat clone party just because it has an R in front of it.

The Republican Party isn't kicking anyone out, especially the base.

1372 Mr Secul  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:16:58pm

re: #1351 Aussie Infidel

I agree with you 99%.

Somehow I doubt that. Because here comes the but...

Unfortunately in the REAL world your thoughts are not so readily translated into workable legislation.

I'm sure that there exist REAL places that have such workable legislation. Say, for instance, the UK...

There is ALWAYS Legislative 'creep' where one faction or another pushes and pushes to see how far they can get.

You end up with the situation that is emerging in the UK where abortion is legal BUT now doctors who have moral quarms about being associated with such a philosophy are professionally vilified and FORCED to comply by the STATE .

The same goes for Christian marriage celebrants who are FORCED through threat of de-licensing to preform homosexual marriages'.

Reality is all about pushing one's particular barrow to the detriment of others, even in one's own party.

Sad but true

I think false.

Can you present evidence to back your claim?

How can a church be forced to marry gays in the UK when it isn't legal for gays to marry in the UK?

They can have civil partnerships and they are called 'gay marriages' but that is just people using sloppy language. British law says that civil partnerships are not the same as marriages.

What does the UK government, itself, say about it?

Were you are misinformed and just made an honest mistake?

But talk about the UK is a red herring.

Could the US government really force churches to marry people that they don't want to?

1373 lennysquiggy  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:23:02pm

#1353:

Small government, strong defense, personal liberty... That is a pretty big tent.

1374 floater  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:25:53pm

"As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win."

I disagree -- does the State of California's (that is, the people, not unelected judges) defeat of gay marriage with the passage of Proposition 8 mean social conservatives won?
McCain/Palin take seriously the Social Conservative's agenda of the Right to Life; but the overwhelming economic issue at this Election time outweighed everything else, including Terrorism, War in Iraq, and abortion.
Yes, the Social Conservatives' candidate did not win the election. Fact. But the election was not a referendum on social conservatives so much as it was on the perception of Republican ability (George Bush, et al) to steady the economy and get it back on track.

1375 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:26:38pm

re: #1367 dcbatlle

Rest assured. As a social conservative, if the party doesn't want me, I'll leave. I'm a conservative first, Republican second. I'm not going to vote for a Democrat clone party just because it has an R in front of it.

So- it's a conservative value to have the government legislate that which religious institutions failed to teach?

1376 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:28:21pm

re: #1353 surfinbrant

The soc-cons don't need to leave. They need to understand we're not a religious party. We're a conservative party. If they can't handle that, well...

1377 Steve Rogers  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:28:53pm

re: #1113 bitterclinger_in_PA

Please please please leave your evolution out of politics.

We live in a nation and a time when manufacturing jobs, IT jobs and you-name-it types of jobs are going overseas. India and China are poised to come into the First World and into the global economy in a big way! And when they do, they will absorb even more jobs and perhaps even entire industries previously done by workers in United States. Something will be needed to replace those jobs; something that will keep the U.S. competitive and supply a steady stream of jobs for generations to come.

Something with potential for huge profits, tons of jobs and unbelievable benefits for humanity is a variety of emerging biomedical and biotech fields. Cloning, genetic engineering and processes and methods of medicine that we can't even imagine today will be commonplace within a few years. This is going to be big. And whichever nation gets in on the ground floor with this, will stay competitive for generations to come and have a better than good economy.

Then along come the creationists. They want to take other parents' captive school children and fill their heads with an Iron Age myth written by people who believed the Earth was flat and that the handful of animals in and around their village constituted every known animal on the planet, and tell these kids that this is science. All the while, they are also telling these kids that the real science of evolution – which is at the very foundation for modern biology – is not real!

Who the hell is going to fill the biomedical and biotech jobs of tomorrow? I guarantee you, anyone with a degree in "creationism" sure as hell is not getting such a job. But I do hope they don’t scratch my car when they are pumping my gas. Because that's about the limit a "creationism" degree is going to get someone. A degree in biology, however, offers a much better chance of filling such jobs.

And I can assure you that, right now, the kids in China and India know more about biology than any adult "creationist" in the United States.

The spreading of "creationism" and the false claim that evolution is "just a thoery" is doing its part in preventing the United States in staying competitive in all biotech jobs of the future. Thus, "creationism" is harming the U.S. Thus, I don't want to keep evolution out of politics. Accept it, or be rolled over by a nation that does. Look at what the Soviets did with Sputnik. That was a wake-up call for the U.S. to double down on science education. I fear this time, we may not beat whichever nation launches their "biotech Sputnik." And whichever nation it is, it will be one that realizes biological evolution is a fact and acts on it.

1378 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:29:50pm

re: #1375 Sharmuta

re: #1367 dcbatlle

Rest assured. As a social conservative, if the party doesn't want me, I'll leave. I'm a conservative first, Republican second. I'm not going to vote for a Democrat clone party just because it has an R in front of it.

So- it's a conservative value to have the government legislate that which religious institutions failed to teach?

Where did you get that idea?

What was changed in the six years that Bush had a Republican congress?

1379 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:31:49pm

re: #1378 Adina in Judea

Hello- this thread is about soc-cons. If social conservatives want to push a religious agenda posing as a conservative agenda, then we're going to continue to lose elections. It's not a conservative value, imo. Smaller government is.

1380 floater  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:34:02pm

re: #1353 surfinbrant

The soc-cons don't need to leave. They need to understand we're not a religious party. We're a conservative party. If they can't handle that, well...

Social Conservatives understand that the party is not only getting hostile to a foundation principle (Right to Life), but is also expanding (not limiting) the role of the Federal Government, and spending more under George Bush than Bill Clinton. Did you see George Bush's Farm Bill, Drugs for Seniors, Immigration, etc? Is this the conservative approach? Start with Right to Life -- I think I've read about that somewhere -- that's a cornerstone, independent of religious view

1381 Adina in Judea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:40:18pm

re: #1379 Sharmuta

re: #1378 Adina in Judea

Hello- this thread is about soc-cons. If social conservatives want to push a religious agenda posing as a conservative agenda, then we're going to continue to lose elections. It's not a conservative value, imo. Smaller government is.

Soc-cons want leaders who share their values, but they're not pushing everything onto the national scene legislatively. If they were doing this, then Bush would have had all sorts of soc-con things going on when he had a Republican Senate and House for six years.

Just knowing that soc-cons are out there wanting conservative leaders who share their values isn't a reason to take issue with them. They're a huge number of people who didn't demand things from Bush for six years when he had the Republican Congress to try them.

My preferences are for foreign policy / security conservative leaders but I know that the soc-cons want this, too. The foreign policy issues tend to get pushed for all of us without the soc-con issues (even when Republicans have control of the Presidency and both houses.)

1382 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:41:32pm

re: #1380 floater

Most republicans I know are pissed about the fiscal conservative bedrock being tossed under the bus. Most of them are pro-life but also have other social ideas that are more moderate, like gay marriage and reforming our outdated laws on marijuana. They don't want moral busybodies from either party telling them what to do. Think about the American ideal of "Don't Tread On Me". It's in our blood. People want to be left alone. We don't want either side cramming their BS down our throats.

You really think abortion is the key issue then prepare to keep losing. It's consistently a 50-50 issue and the rate has been dropping without any change in Roe v Wade. I think it's an issue better handled by religious institutions and parental involvement.

What people do want is control on spending and no government intrusion on their liberties. If we as a party cannot agree on this, we're screwed.

1383 ZionScion  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:51:48pm
This argument makes sense to us, and we’ve been holding forth in our comments on this very topic. If the GOP decides to go in the Bobby Jindal direction (fundamental Christianity, creationism, hard-line anti-abortionism, aggressively anti-gay rights), it will be committing political suicide. As much as anything else, this election was a referendum on the social conservative agenda, and the social conservatives did not win.

While a hard line on those position does indeed push away some voters, relinquishing the fight may cost many as well. It would be better to find a way to communicate more effectively and convince the fence-sitters and otherwise uninformed voters of the virtues of the positions traditional Republicans hold rather than declare defeat, sacrifice a pillar of the party, and become the Democrat-Lite party simply to gain power.

Keep in mind the anti-gay right ballot initiatives, particularly concerning marriage, passed in many states, including apparently in California with strong support amongst the African American demographic. You might even ironically be able to say that were it not for Obama, Prop 8 may have failed, if increased voting numbers bear it out.

McCain is not a social conservative. Palin arguably is, but the negative perception of her probably had more to do with issues like experience, and a few stumbling interviews that were quickly thrust prominently around the media echo chamber. In addition to that, neither Palin nor Hillary seemed to get much of a fair shake from the press, either because they weren't the media's choice or perhaps in part because they are both women and as such subjected to extra scrutiny.

Many if not most Americans have a spark of social conservatism within them, a spark that we will need to carefully nurture in order to usher in the future Republican party.

1384 Throbert McGee  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:57:57pm

re: #1351 Aussie Infidel

The same goes for Christian marriage celebrants who are FORCED through threat of de-licensing to preform homosexual marriages'.

What an excellent point! Just as, here in the United States of Aremica, Catholic priests who refused to officiate at second marriages for divorced people have been forced to do so by legal threats, as were Orthodox rabbis who refused to officiate at Jewish/Gentile marriages.

/Greetings from Earth-Beta; our two moons are looking lovely tonight, and Aremicans have just elected Borax Oblama as our first star-bellied President...

1385 bungie  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 8:59:55pm

oh yeah, this makes sense. . . we didn't have enough people to win so now let's split ourselves in two and that will be the way to win?
Huh? If social conservatives lost this for us, how do you explain proposition 8 winning in California of all places?

We need both economic conservatives and social conservatives. We need to find a way to reach the 18-29 year olds and the Hispanics. And the Jews. We need to find a way to compromise a little.

I'm pro-life but I was originally for Rudi and then Romney. National Security was first for me (if you are dead, you are not getting pregnant anyhow). Next I vote for fiscal responsibility/small government. It's the litmus tests people have to get over.

This election was lost by the economy, the bailout, the stock market and Obama's extreme spending and the entitlements he promised. The media propagandists helped too.

1386 yosemite bill  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:06:36pm

Very Late to the thread - LONG day. 11/04/08 will long be remembered as ... . I don't know another very infamous day in history .
Lizards - the business community is going down their collective leg today.
I am very - very small potatoes and things are going to Hell in a hurry.
Can I say Hell or is that too religious ?

Charles , Mr Frum, Mr Will, Ms Parker, etc -
Religions come in many guises - There are the obvious ones- Christian, Jew, Hindu, Muslim, etc. The "minor" ones Druids, etc ( NO offense intended)
AND the NOT so obvious systems of belief - religions- Socialism, Gaea Worship(Eco-Socialism), Narcissism, and a host of variants- all of the above.
Why is it that of the major Religions - in particular because the US is - like it or NOT is a Judeo-Christian nation- is it only those on the Religious Right that are deemed a threat or political liability ?
The Religious Left has been politically active and up to their cleric's collar it failed social polices - 100's of billions of dollars worth - for decades and yet they are not even on the radar in these discussions ? Bob Edgar past(?) Pres of the National Council of Churches - HUGE self described "RADICAL" - Not a threat to the Republic but Palin and Jindal are ? The heads of most of the major Protestant churches ELCA, Methodists, United Church of Christ, etc are cut from nearly the same Leftist cloth as Edgar but what the hey ! It is those conservative Christians or Jews - Better keep an eye on those nut jobs. Don't want their type in the party.
So the "tolerance" meme only goes one way ? - Those of us - I'll call Christian Constitutional Conservatives are supposed to check our faith at the Republican Party door and shut up because we might offend the "tolerant" secular wing of the party ? Sorry - Not gonna happen ! Been there done that and those days are over. Palin didn't cost McCain the election- McCain cost McCain the election.

1387 WestSea  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:24:28pm

re: #1327 whirled peas

#1323

My whole point is that the public schools are not teaching the theory of evolution. I challenge you to find a public school science teacher who has read the "Origin of the Species" or anything written by Darwin, or any legitimate biologist, about the theory of evolution. Most Christians would be fine with someone who understands the theory and the current research teaching it as a theory in a non-political manner. That is not what is happening. What is being taught is the cult of global warming, vegetarianism, green-ism, pacifism, and Marxism. That's why choice in education is something conservatives should all agree on. Let's stop hyphenating conservatism while we're at it. We are falling prey to the divide and conquer strategy of George Soros & Co.

I am a science teacher that has read the "Origin of Species". It's not taught as a political manner. I'm not sure what schools you have been visiting lately, but in the science classes in my school we don't push global warming, vegetarianism, pacifism or Marxism to our students. You don't know what's going on in the schools, and you throw the term Marxism around far too much. Get a grip.

1388 Captkirk35  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:38:33pm

Way, way late to the party here, but I must add my 2 cents (probably all they're worth anyway).

As a very "social conservative", I agree with Charles and others that this element of the Republican party must be significantly curtailed if conservatives ever hope to see the reigns of power again. The focus should be on reform, smaller government, significantly lower spending, riding ourselves of the debt, strengthening the dollar, and exports, and generally all things fiscally responsibile and conservative. "Fiscal Conservatisim" has bar far the broadest reach, and I know many, many people who have no trouble whatsoever wearing this label with pride.. people who are otherwise middling to liberal on other issues.

Ironically, as a strong Christian myself, I truly believe that seperating the social aspects of life from politics will bring MORE people around to our causes, and MORE people towards Christ, which, in the end, should be our aim.

1389 Dirty Patriot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:41:20pm

I am late to the party again, but here goes...

I have to disagree with Charles on this one. I think our problem wasn't showing too much conservatism, it was not showing enough. We lost because of three main problems:

1. Ridiculously biased media, including all the mind-numbing shows that the deadhead "Joe six-pack" crowds watch, such as Jon Stewart, Colbert Report, SNL, etc; The sheer size and scope of the regurgitated half-truths and outright lies was astounding.
2. The hole we had to climb out of due to the irrational hatred of the Bush administration. The problems and mistakes were not only way overblown, they were all attributed to Bush and Republicans when they didn't deserve all the flak. The nation did the equivilent of a little kid sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling "lalalalala" when people try to explain anything longer than a one-liner zinger about how and why many of the problems we face were actually brought on by the past administration(s).
3. The soft and unenergized McCain campaign. Most real conservatives weren't happy with him in the first place. He was/is too centerist for most of us on many issues, and way too quick to "work with the other side". When real conservatism is properly elucidated---such as with Reagan---it wins every time.

1390 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:41:42pm

re: #1385 bungie

My explanation- when Americans are polled on issues, they always end up being more conservative then the party ID. There are a lot of people who are actually conservatives and not liberal democrats. Thanks to pandering parties, we have too many people voting against their own values.

I hate to break it to people, but some of the louder voices of the religious right are damaging our chances as a party to reach out to these folks without having to drop our values. It's not that the soc-cons need to leave, it's their tactics.

Politics is the art of compromise. I think some soc-cons hurt us. I've stated repeatedly on this thread they don't have to leave, but it's my opinion they have to understand this is a political party, not a religious party. If they want to spread their faith, they are free to do so in this country, just not while using my party as a vehicle. People do agree with the right on a lot of social issues, but if it's presented in a way that turns people off because it's overtly religious, we're going to keep losing.

1391 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:51:20pm

re: #1246 Peter Verkooijen

Because I saw this would be the outcome when the primaries turned out the way they did. We couldn't get our act together and yes, I blame social conservatives for lacking perspective and pushing the Republican Party into a disastrous direction.

McCain had to work hard to win over the social conservatives, but he did nothing to win over capitalists or young ambitious urban voters - as that lame patronizing 'Not Ready to Lead...Yet' signalled.

The election was lost by the McCain campaign, and the campaign was led by McCain. I voted for him, because I am a loyal Republican. I don't deserve to bear the onus of this defeat, nor do the libertarians in the Party; or the atheists in the Party. It was a botched campaign. The Republican Party has now lost dignity and honor, not just an election (oh. sorry. two socially conservative values in a row there). I detest these slutty gossiping courtesans who are sliming Palin in public. They are the pustules on the face of our Party, symptoms of the lack of Republican political intelligence. I don't care of the woman was a frothing rabid loon, it ought never be brought to light by Republican tattling--Democrats defend their own.

1392 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:56:24pm

1390 Sharmuta: "Politics is the art of compromise. I think some soc-cons hurt us. I've stated repeatedly on this thread they don't have to leave, but it's my opinion they have to understand this is a political party, not a religious party. If they want to spread their faith, they are free to do so in this country, just not while using my party as a vehicle. People do agree with the right on a lot of social issues, but if it's presented in a way that turns people off because it's overtly religious, we're going to keep losing."

Conceded. I can get that--but in the context of Palin bashing, it has felt like piling on and scapegoating. What is needed is not just what you describe, but what I am harping on as well: sanctions, to spare further drubbing on my point about discipline.

These Palin bashing McCain flunkies are a disgrace to us.

1393 samsoncc  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:59:36pm

Well, it will be interesting to see how Frum's second option plays out; I assume it's going to be advocated here on the pages of LGF. However, I don't really understand how the discussion turned towards Creationism et al so quickly, or why it even matters. You say focusing on it and other "socially conservative" policies will be "political suicide". I couldn't disagree more. Maybe social-suicide, but hardly political. I'd say the vast majority of people want to be on the side of the Church(es), they just don't see how to advocate the same issues without a supernatural logos, so to speak. Don't 80-90% of people still say they believe in a higher power or something like that?

If you want to understand how you can be socially conservative and non-religious (is that the same as atheistic? eh, don't care) it's really not hard. But it's definitely not something you can impose. Just listen to people and figure it out yourself.

I really hope conservatives don't turn Katetish with all the in-fighting. Now's the time to remember why you believe what you believe; if that's not a problem for you because you don't have any "beliefs," you've got bigger problems than politics.

And no, I'm not some stealth creationist. I believe god is just as "real" as "capitalism"...

1394 firepilot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 9:59:59pm

Actually I think it is one of the failings of the GOP, that libertarians who are actually ideologically closer to the Republican platform than Democrats, see themselves as being closer to Democrats.

Libertarians would love to side with a party who is about individual liberty and small government but Republicans have failed in that miserably for a while. The term "Moral busybodies" that someone used is appropriate, and well for small government, I cant see any difference between Republicans and Democrats lately.

Libertarians despise the idea of big government, but they even more despise laws that go against personal liberties, and they percieve Dems for while being for more government, but less apt to try to pass moral laws, which is why Liberarians lately are more supportive of Democrats, when in the past, they wanted nothing to do with Democrats. And that is the fault of the Republican party, for having forgotten about small government and forgetting to champion individual liberty.

Too many, but not all social conservatives of course, are not about small government, they are fine with big government as long as there are laws regarding morality and personal behavior. The Republican party is going to have to get back to small government and individual liberty, before it is ever going to stand a chance of a comeback. Morality laws, are fine in a household, but not in the government.

1395 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 10:09:21pm

re: #1392 Joan

I haven't bashed Governor Palin. I like her a lot. If 0bama is the epic fail we fear he'll be, than she should make a go of it in 2012. If he's more successful than we think he'll be, I hope she'll hold off for 2016.

The reason I have no issue with Sarah on the soc-con stuff is she's stated she wouldn't push it on the electorate. I'd like to see her maintain a good record on fiscal policy, reform, and transparency. If she can do this, she could pull it off because she endeared herself to a lot of us.

Regardless- we have our work cut out for us in getting some understanding internally.

1396 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 10:09:51pm

Interesting that many of the same people who ding down every post on creationism are dinging this one down.

1397 Captkirk35  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 10:16:16pm

Agree. But there can be no doubting the "brand" is broke. We have a chance to strike out in a new, positive direction, and it's critical the ship is set sailing on a course that will lead us out of the wilderness. The fiscal conservative nature of our movement is surely the way to go.

re: #1389 Dirty Patriot

I am late to the party again, but here goes...

I have to disagree with Charles on this one. I think our problem wasn't showing too much conservatism, it was not showing enough. We lost because of three main problems:

1. Ridiculously biased media, including all the mind-numbing shows that the deadhead "Joe six-pack" crowds watch, such as Jon Stewart, Colbert Report, SNL, etc; The sheer size and scope of the regurgitated half-truths and outright lies was astounding.
2. The hole we had to climb out of due to the irrational hatred of the Bush administration. The problems and mistakes were not only way overblown, they were all attributed to Bush and Republicans when they didn't deserve all the flak. The nation did the equivilent of a little kid sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling "lalalalala" when people try to explain anything longer than a one-liner zinger about how and why many of the problems we face were actually brought on by the past administration(s).
3. The soft and unenergized McCain campaign. Most real conservatives weren't happy with him in the first place. He was/is too centerist for most of us on many issues, and way too quick to "work with the other side". When real conservatism is properly elucidated---such as with Reagan---it wins every time.

1398 firepilot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 10:35:41pm

But, if espousing social conservatism means a home for big government when it comes to our own lives, then we have not learned a thing. Small government conservatism is exactly that, not small government for economic issues, but big is fine socially. Republicans will have ZERO credibilty as small government conservatives, if we are allowing big government intrusion for social issues.

I see social morality as issues of the individual, not neccessarily things that are inherently governmental, like defense and taxation. Just like it is my own job to feed and house myself and not the governments job, its also my own job with the individual liberities we have, to live morally as I see fit.

If I want to buy liquor on sundays, fine. If someone wants to smoke a joint in their house, fine. There are lots of issues that are purely personal issues, without a need for laws.

I think there can be a place for social conservatism in the Republican Party. However, I would like those values to be advocated as personal choices to live, and not as government policies and new laws.

1399 gulfloafer  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 10:37:17pm

Obama went out of his way to prove his Christian "street cred." No, this election wasn't about backlash against social conservatism. It's one of the last narcissistic tantrums of the boomer generation. Instant gratification is, and has been for a long time, the order of the day.

Not getting along with your spouse? Need some me time? Feel you've outgrown each other after three, five, fifteen yrs.? No problem. Kids involved? They'll be fine; we'll split custody while each of us do our own thing. Then go and do the same thing over again; have another family with more kids a time or two. Oh right, the kids from the original marriage? Moving right along.

Make 30K a year? Want that Escalade? You're covered. 60K a year? Want the 300K house? We've got the perfect mortgage for you! Go out and spend until the only light at the end of the tunnel is bankruptcy. After all it's patriotic, don't be greedy. Don't want to pay more than your fair share of taxes? You're greedy and unpatriotic.

If the WWII generation was the greatest what are the boomers? Tell me, because I'd sure love to hear it, what kind of positive moral precedent have they set regarding family issues. I love my parents, don't get me wrong ... for all their faults. I don't mimic or condone their mistakes though. I try to learn from them. I'm married with kids of my own and I'll be damned if I don't do everything on God's green earth to raise them right in a stable environment.

Is it wrong to teach kids patience? Tell them to aspire, work hard, and carry themselves with a little humility? Be accountable for your own actions? You aren't entitled to anything in this world ... you must earn it? Practice the Golden Mean? Respect your elders, teachers, and those in authority. You have to lead from the front and set the example. I'm sorry; that whole "do as I say not as I do" garbage doesn't work.

Does that make me a social conservative? So be it. Call me what you wish. I'll wear that badge with honor. I take care of my wife and she of me. Together we take care of our children. We pay our bills not the MSM, Hollywood, or the public. Maybe I am a throw back; I want my children to have it better than I did and I want their children to have it better than they. But above all, I want to do it on our terms; not Leviathan's.

For all the crap I've eaten, or maybe because of it?, I'm still grateful to be living on the greatest piece of real estate on this planet. There's a new dawn on the horizon, there always is in America. It might not be next year or the next ten years but it's coming, I know it.

1400 Joan  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 10:42:53pm

re: #1395 Sharmuta

...The reason I have no issue with Sarah on the soc-con stuff is she's stated she wouldn't push it on the electorate. I'd like to see her maintain a good record on fiscal policy, reform, and transparency. If she can do this, she could pull it off because she endeared herself to a lot of us.

Regardless- we have our work cut out for us in getting some understanding internally.

Agreed; and, note excellent nearby CaptKirk/DirtyPatriot exchange, which I'll leave alone as this thread has worn me out.

I would like permanent, severe Republican reprisals against McCain staff sluts publicly bashing Palin--as a warning to others. Step One.

1401 firepilot  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 10:55:12pm

But that is a good point that, in how social conservatism can still be compatible with small government conservative. Those values can still be taught at home, without having to be encoded into law and part of public policy, of part of a political platform.

I live in Southwestern Idaho, and there is a pretty sizeable area from here going southeast, encompassing much of southern Idaho and Northern Utah, where you have some LDS values put into law. Is that social conservatism? Yes. Small government conservatism? No.

America came to be America through individual liberty, not by laws dictating what an individual can do.

1402 samsoncc  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 11:40:41pm

re: #1396 Charles

Why not just make defending/espousing/advocating/apologizing/etc creationism an instant ban-able offense? That way the rest of us won't be bothered with the in-fighting... You're never going to convince them to stop on their own free will, and LGF will lose none of its reputation (to me anyway). Or, why not?

1403 Salem  Wed, Nov 5, 2008 11:51:04pm

Ugh. I wish we could at least down-ding our own posts. Almost every post I made on this thread looks idiotic to me now that I've reread them. Maybe a consequence of withdrawal, though I can't rule out the possibility that I'm just an idiot.

Maybe I should just get into the habit of lurking to avoid embarrassing myself.

1404 Fearless Fred  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 1:28:15am

re: #13 Sharmuta

Sorry- I'm a fiscal conservative who wants the government to leave me the f*ck alone. I don't like moral busybodies on the left and I don't like them on the right either.


So, then what about the supremes making up rights to abortion? Conservatives want to repair that little problem. It's just a fact that our society and laws are based largely on the ten commandements. To ask conservatives to run from that is to send them in the direction of leftists - a world without standards. What we're doing in the Middle East is moral busybodying, and we agree on that, right?

1405 MJBrutus  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 1:43:27am

re: #1404 Fearless Fred

So, then what about the supremes making up rights to abortion? Conservatives want to repair that little problem. It's just a fact that our society and laws are based largely on the ten commandements. To ask conservatives to run from that is to send them in the direction of leftists - a world without standards. What we're doing in the Middle East is moral busybodying, and we agree on that, right?

The point here is that it is well passed time to be practical. Whatever your opinion about religion is, know this: religion does not win elections. None of the things that we want for the future of this country will happen if we don't win elections. Full stop. Reread this paragraph!

1406 Fearless Fred  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 1:50:59am

re: #6 Sharmuta

Soc-cons are killing us in elections by alienating independent moderates AND the fiscal-cons. This has got to stop, and it won't unless republicans get involved in the party and tell these folks to keep their social agenda programs at church because it's not the business in which government is supposed to be addressing.


How, exactly, did soc-cons harm McCain at the pols? Voters did not turn away from McCain because of Palin. Without a Palin, many soc-cons may simply have not voted. The voters you fear may have turned from McCain because of Palin would never have voted for McCain against Obama. They are going to go with the candidate with the lowest standards.

1407 Fearless Fred  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 1:56:25am

re: #1405 MJBrutus

The point here is that it is well passed time to be practical. Whatever your opinion about religion is, know this: religion does not win elections. None of the things that we want for the future of this country will happen if we don't win elections. Full stop. Reread this paragraph!


I disagree -- the victory for Obama is really not at all about issues or economic principles or saving us from Islamists ... it was about a religious fervor for Barry ... a fanatical devotion to 'change' and 'hope' and a nonsensical furry toward anything remotely connected with Bush. Religion just did in fact win an election.

1408 Fearless Fred  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 2:05:33am

re: #1407 Fearless Fred

I disagree -- the victory for Obama is really not at all about issues or economic principles or saving us from Islamists ... it was about a religious fervor for Barry ... a fanatical devotion to 'change' and 'hope' and a nonsensical furry toward anything remotely connected with Bush. Religion just did in fact win an election.

The weird and mindless devotion to the Mother Earth we are unquestionably destroying unless we devote enormous resources immediately to the 'cause is another part of Obama's victory. It's a religious devotion to Mother Earth and big government ... a world-wide nanny-state with Barry leading. He is the One! The Saviour. It seems very religious to me. I don't see how reason and rational thinking can account for his supporter's votes.

1409 Fearless Fred  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 2:15:04am

McCain would do more to change this Stoning victim 'begged for mercy' than Obama will. That's moral busybodying I certainly find appealing. I think it's difficult to imagine lawmaking, warmaking, leading a great nation, much of what I think of when I think of public policy -- without morality and religion being somewhere in the underlying fundamental principles.

1410 MJBrutus  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 2:40:03am

re: #1409 Fearless Fred

McCain would do more to change this Stoning victim 'begged for mercy' than Obama will. That's moral busybodying I certainly find appealing. I think it's difficult to imagine lawmaking, warmaking, leading a great nation, much of what I think of when I think of public policy -- without morality and religion being somewhere in the underlying fundamental principles.

I would suggest to you that religion is and should be one factor in the heart of those who make leadership decisions if their sense of morality is guided by his religious beliefs. For many, such as myself, religion has no part of my morality and yet I am able to reach decisions that most people I know (religious and otherwise) regard as moral. That is a far cry from trying to impose or legislate one's religion on others.

And like it or not, people resent such impositions. That is why religious agendas lose elections. Facts are stubborn things, and while you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts. So please, for the good of all of us, accept this plain fact and include it in your political decision-making.

1411 MJBrutus  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 2:45:50am

re: #1407 Fearless Fred

I disagree -- the victory for Obama is really not at all about issues or economic principles or saving us from Islamists ... it was about a religious fervor for Barry ... a fanatical devotion to 'change' and 'hope' and a nonsensical furry toward anything remotely connected with Bush. Religion just did in fact win an election.

This election was a reaction to the Bush administration. Sure, Obama "worship" was part of the phenomenon, but it was because he was successful in presenting himself as the anti-Bush. That is what his hopey-changey shtick was all about. He simply ran on his not being Bush (and painting McCain as being Bush) and that was enough for a majority of Americans.

1412 Sharmuta  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 4:06:44am

re: #1404 Fearless Fred

The Constitution is my political foundation. If the religious groups have failed to pass their morality on to their parishioners, it is not the job of the government to correct that for them. If I fail to teach my children my values, my morality, my faith- it is not the role of government to correct my failings.

Why do we oppose islam? Because we do not want their morality forced on us? We do not want theocracy? Because there is a fundamental difference in their ideology and that of individual rights?

1413 Aye Pod  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 5:23:21am

re: #1362 Salamantis

That's only the first two lines; what about the other FIVE PARAGRAPHS?

Not only that, but she actually hasn't addressed the particular point about twins that you made in those first two lines either.

1414 Aye Pod  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 5:39:32am

re: #1325 Adina in Judea

A baby born disabled with brain deficiencies is still considered a person.

If the baby dies, the baby is given a name and a funeral, usually.

We are not talking about a baby with brain deficiencies, we are talking about an insentient organism which hasn't developed a brain.

Which you consider to be a person of course, because it's human.

I'm refusing to allow you to drag my scientific argument into a religious one.

You haven't presented a scientific argument. Just a bit of feeble sophistry involving the term 'human being'.

1415 Aye Pod  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 5:44:51am

re: #1354 Salamantis

I do not apologize for downdinging posts with which I disagree; that's what it's for. I also upding posts that I like. Besides which, this is an attempt to divert attention from the fact that you refused to address the issues I raised.

Courage? You? HA! You are cowardly refusing to address the issues I raised in my post #1260, even though you continued to engage jimmah on the same topic (but different point).

BUSTED!

1416 archer50  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 5:48:54am

Folks,

Before we start stabbing the dead body, ala Saddam, lets get real about what happened on Nov 4th.

1. I'm going to say what most people are thinking. This event was the reality version of Eddie Murphy's skit as Jessie Jackson being elected President. Many many voters (And I know some of them), released a pent up desire to put part of America's past behind them. Obama was the perfect vessel, he is what Biden said. Had he run his national campaign as he did his primary, he would have lost. But, he and his people were smart enough to do what elects Presidents in this country, run to the center. Heck, Nixon told us that years ago. Let's be honest, had he said "I'm going to give everybody who isn't working free money so that they will vote for me and I taking the money from you fools that are working" instead of "95% of the working people will get a TAX BREAK" people would have laughed out loud. Had he said he openly supported partial birth abortion and fed money to pay for it, people would have been upset. Had he proudly displayed his job history with all its ugly warts of corruption, failure, and odd relationships.. he would have lost. It is amazing to me that the MSM and the voters (some of which I had this discussion with) made the argument that the second person on the Rep ticket wasn't qualified to be President, when the Dem's first choice was less qualified by the same standard. A total disconnect.

2. The media. Or should we say, the Obama Press secretaries in mass. Failure is to kind of a word when discussing their lack of discharge of their duties. Foreign press, with less staff and budget, found more out on Obama. The San Fran paper holding back the coal bankruptcy comment is an overt effort to shield the people from Obama's true belief system. There will be years of reflection over this, so let's move on.

3. GW Bush- he is the gift that keeps on giving- to the Dems. I know why he did what he did, making devil's deals with the Dems over spending and the like. He was single minded in focus. He was not going to let another 9/11 happen. I know people in the WH. this was well known. The sad part was the Dems used that weakness to their advantage instead of doing the right thing. Whatever GW would have been ended on that day.
The people just couldn't take it anymore, even though they were safer for it. McCain could not get out from under GW. Romney would have been a better choice for that reason alone. I think, and time will tell, the MSM also knew that and did their best to push McCain forward over the others. But that's only a theory.

4. The economic meltdown. There was no certainty that McCain would have won. But the meltdown and his reaction doomed him. Obama received kudos for NOT doing anything while McCain felt obligated to do something to save the country. Most of this was done by the MSM spin linked to the Obama press releases. People saw McCain as disjointed. McCain "fundamentals" statement was indeed accurate and should have been praised, but it was not.

5. Obama's oratory. Not since Reagan have I seen such mesmerizing speech. I watched, in somewhat horror, the faces of those at his victory speech. I've seen it before, in old news reels of cult churches and fascist countries. The sad truth is most people are sheep. They want someone to guide them to the green pastures and cool mountain streams. McCain was never a match for him. Heck, short of Fred Thompson, I don't think the Reps have anyone close. Contrary to what Obama claims, he was paying attention to Wright all those twenty years.

So, don't fall all over yourselves yet about the end of social issues in America. Wait four years. Obama will show himself, with Reid and Nutty Nancy pushing him. We'll have this discussion again.

RW

1417 BPSCG  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 6:01:56am

I'm tired of hearing how the GOP needs to move towards the center. Heard it most recently yesterday from Connie Morella, a former RINO congresswoman from DC's Maryland suburbs (she got voted out 4 years ago when her district decided they wanted an actual Democrat instead of a Dem-Lite).

If you want to lead, then lead! You don't get the vote of the center by trying to move in whatever direction the "center" might be today; you get it by persuading the center that they want to be with you. Ronald Reagan didn't win by moving to the center; he won by persuading the center they wanted to move to him.

1418 bungie  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 6:18:59am

re: #1390 Sharmuta

I agree. I would describe myself as a social conservative (as well as a hawk on defense and a fiscal conservative) but I ask the other religious social conservatives to remember that Jesus himself spoke indirectly and in parables rather than forcing people to do His will.

1419 Yashmak  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 7:19:39am
For me conservatism starts with the constitution, not the bible.

- Thanos #1131

Same here. Perfect statement. I still adhere to alot of the moral structure I gained through a Christian upbringing, but I'm repulsed by those who feel it's right to try and jam those beliefs down the throats of others through legislation.

Sharmuta, I've really enjoyed your comments on this topic as well.

1420 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 7:20:58am

re: #1131 Thanos

For me conservatism starts with the constitution, not the bible.

Amen.

1421 Yashmak  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 7:23:10am

re: #1417 BPSCG

I'm tired of hearing how the GOP needs to move towards the center. Heard it most recently yesterday from Connie Morella, a former RINO congresswoman from DC's Maryland suburbs (she got voted out 4 years ago when her district decided they wanted an actual Democrat instead of a Dem-Lite).

If you want to lead, then lead! You don't get the vote of the center by trying to move in whatever direction the "center" might be today; you get it by persuading the center that they want to be with you. Ronald Reagan didn't win by moving to the center; he won by persuading the center they wanted to move to him.

He was a great president because he represented the American people as a whole, not because he tried to move the country right or left or any other way. He didn't spend that much time pushing the moral agenda one way or the other, and he's remembered as a great because he served us all well, liberal, conservative, or moderate.

You can lead, without leading to the right, left, or center.

1422 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 7:32:54am

It's taken quite some time to read the whole thread, but it's been well worth it...some great ideas and commentary.

Thank you, Charles, for providing the opening for this discussion.

1423 mccainiac503  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 7:54:25am

Bashing Bobby Jindal on religion...
... is a bad move. He is Catholic, the religion of 25% of Americans and 1 Billion people on this planet.

The Catholic Church does not dispute science and evolution. The only thing the Church adds is that God was the one who "lit the match and started the fire" and was the origin of all life. The 6 days in Genesis is all allegorical and meant to be read contextually and not literally. Use your noggin.. faith AND reason.

This is what I have been taught this year in RCIA (Initiation for Adults into the Catholic Church).

If you happened to watch Ben Stein's movie, he didn't argue against evolution, he argued that there's nothing wrong with saying that God was the trigger that created life and the universe and then it evolved from there.

Please don't lump Catholics in the kooks in Obama's church and Palin's church, etc. It's offensive to Catholics and not a very wise strategy for Republicans.

The Catholic vote is going to be critical for the GOP going forward and losing the Catholic vote is a huge reason McCain lost. Finding Catholics worthy of the Presidency may be one of the few ways left to the White House for the GOP.

Don't like Jindal? Fine, who else then?
Rudy's out because the pro-lifers can't stand him.
Suggestions?

1424 mccainiac503  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 8:00:43am

re: #1420 scottishbuzzsaw

Nothing in the words of Christ tells me to lobby the government to ban abortion or prohibit gay marriage. Nothing in Christ's teaching tells me I should lobby the government to redistribute wealth, provide universal health care, free housing, etc.

So I believe that the founding fathers absolutely had the Bible in mind when they wrote the Constitution. Free will, personal responsibility, self governance and liberty from our Creator did not evolve out of thin air. It's the correct interpretation of the Scripture.

It saddens me that so many Christians take the Scripture that was meant as an instruction manual for individual and community life and try to use the government to enforce those views on everyone else.

Christ said "Render unto Caesar"... he did not say "Lobby Caesar so that he shall render unto you the laws and benefits you seek"

President Obama, the next great Caesar of the USA!

1425 Yashmak  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 8:10:44am

re: #1406 Fearless Fred

How, exactly, did soc-cons harm McCain at the pols? Voters did not turn away from McCain because of Palin. Without a Palin, many soc-cons may simply have not voted. The voters you fear may have turned from McCain because of Palin would never have voted for McCain against Obama. They are going to go with the candidate with the lowest standards.

Voters DID turn away from McCain because of Palin. I know this for fact, because my girlfriend was one of them. She liked McCain better than Obama, but Palin's excessive speaking about religion driven morality issues scared the heck out of her more than Obama did. Several of her (and my) friends fall into the same category. . .independent voters driven to the Obama camp by Palin's overly social conservative nature. It's hard to say if Palin drew more votes, or drove more away.

1426 croob  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 8:13:15am

Jindal would be a great choice. He is dynamic, decent, intelligent, attractive and actually believes in something worth believing in. Whether you agree with his exact dogma or not, those attributes will beat the crap out of any vague "I'm not sure who I really am" type. Besides, what is wrong with being pro-life when our primary adversaries in this world are avowedly pro-death ?

1427 Yashmak  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 8:30:09am

re: #1385 bungie

oh yeah, this makes sense. . . we didn't have enough people to win so now let's split ourselves in two and that will be the way to win?
Huh? If social conservatives lost this for us, how do you explain proposition 8 winning in California of all places?

It won by the slimmest margin of any gay marriage related legislation in the state's history. This is part of a trend, one that points towards social-conservative/moral legislation becoming less popular with the voters over time. You realize that it won by a scant couple of percentage points, right?

No one is suggesting that we should split ourselves in two. The suggestion is simply that the party should stop trying to push legislation that seems designed to exclude, or put down, portions of our nation's population.

1428 Sharmuta  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 8:34:02am

re: #1426 croob

Oh- please run with this idea. I would like to have an opportunity to show the religious right they're not the only ones in this coalition with power. Run him, please. He will not even get the nomination. If by some freak chance he did, you will see 0bama re-elected in a Reagan styled landslide.

1429 antoniojvr  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 8:39:28am

I am a conservative, but one thing that has kept me from joining the ranks of the Republicans is their stance on gay rights. Not for any moral issue, I just don't like the government telling me who I can or cannot marry.

1430 mccainiac503  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 8:39:55am

re: #1427 Yashmak

Yes, California preserved traditional marriage by a 52-48 margin but South Dakota refused to ban abortion by a 55-45 margin.

Let's hear a soc-con explain how South Dakota's abortion vote vindicates that Americans want social conservatism first and foremost.

fyi.. Clinton won in 1992 by claiming to be more fiscally conservative than Bush 41. Paired with a GOP Congress from 1995 to 2000, he was. Bush 43 was a fiscal trainwreck.

Face facts, people. Reagan won and won big because he was a strong fiscal conservative first and foremost. When Republicans abandon fiscal conservatism and promote themselves as the anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, reach into Terri Schiavo's hospital room from DC party... we will lose every time with that message. Especially when the Dems field a slick sounding salesman offering everyone under $250k a goodie bag of redistributive tax cuts.

1431 mccainiac503  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 8:41:32am

re: #1428 Sharmuta

Fine, which Catholic Republican would be acceptable to you?

Rudy? I like Rudy a lot but the pro-lifers will walk out out of the 2012 convention if Rudy is on the ticket.

1432 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 9:15:53am

re: #1423 mccainiac503

Bashing Bobby Jindal on religion...
... is a bad move. He is Catholic, the religion of 25% of Americans and 1 Billion people on this planet.

I do not bash Bobby Jindal because of his religion. I won't support him as a GOP candidate because of the actions he's taken. The exorcism thing is a serious problem, politically.

As for his stance on creationism, if it were a private issue for him it wouldn't matter. I didn't like but didn't particularly care about Sarah Palin's creationist beliefs, because she made it clear she didn't want to force them on other people's children. But Jindal is the first US governor I'm aware of who has not only supported the teaching of creationist woo-woo in schools, he has signed into law a bill sponsored by the Discovery Institute.

These are concrete actions he's taken, and in my opinion they should disqualify him from being any party's "rising star."

1433 monsonman  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 10:00:21am

Charles,

You're usually on point but missed wide right here. Social conservatism (or conservatism at all) was not on the ballot. My support (vocal or otherwise) for McCain was more anti Obama than pro McCain.

McCain's work on Fairness Doctrine, Gang of 14, amnesty etc. are not fundamentals of conservatism. Let's get a conservative person on the ticket and see what happens then.

1434 Adina in Judea  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 10:03:55am

re: #1413 Jimmah

Not only that, but she actually hasn't addressed the particular point about twins that you made in those first two lines either.

Yes, I did (and not just once.)

Here's the first time I addressed the issue of twins and triplets:

Every cell of my body has my own DNA, just as every cell in an embryo's body has his or her own unique DNA (unless the embryo is an idential twin or a triplet, etc.)

My post #1056

1435 Vanceone  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 10:37:17am

I still think Charles is wrong. Essentially, his attitude is "you can believe whatever you want, as long as you don't actually act on it. How dare you actually LIVE a Christian life!"

Christianity is NOT a freak show, as you consistently imply, Charles. Yes, of course you never say that, but actually living a Christian life is derided here. Morality is the fundamental basis of this country, and any people who plunges wholeheartedly into hedonism will perish. See, e.g. Roman Empire. They elevated pursuits of pleasure above everything. You "moderate social types" would do exactly the same thing.

What's wrong with gay marriage, nudity, porn and all that? Why can't it be taught in schools and shown on TV? Because sex is addicting and all of that is just encouraging more addictions. If not checked, we become a nation of sex addicts, or addicts to other things, and that destroys any incentive. Look at Obama: how many already want to rely on others to provide for them? Addictions are just that.

And destroying the social conservatives is just enabling more addictions.

1436 phitoness  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 10:55:19am

So becoming more like Democrats will help Republicans? Baloney. The reason Republicans have been losing is because they aren't conservatives! This is just more of the country club Pubs trying to throw out the social conservatives. That will have zero return.

1437 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 11:14:58am

re: #1435 Vanceone

I still think Charles is wrong. Essentially, his attitude is "you can believe whatever you want, as long as you don't actually act on it. How dare you actually LIVE a Christian life!"

Christianity is NOT a freak show, as you consistently imply, Charles. Yes, of course you never say that, but actually living a Christian life is derided here. Morality is the fundamental basis of this country, and any people who plunges wholeheartedly into hedonism will perish. See, e.g. Roman Empire. They elevated pursuits of pleasure above everything. You "moderate social types" would do exactly the same thing.

What's wrong with gay marriage, nudity, porn and all that? Why can't it be taught in schools and shown on TV? Because sex is addicting and all of that is just encouraging more addictions. If not checked, we become a nation of sex addicts, or addicts to other things, and that destroys any incentive. Look at Obama: how many already want to rely on others to provide for them? Addictions are just that.

And destroying the social conservatives is just enabling more addictions.

Yet another thin-skinned person who insists on distorting and mischaracterizing what I've written, to accuse me of "bashing religion." Which I have NEVER done.

My attitude is: "You can believe anything you want. Just don't try to force it down other people's throats." This really isn't hard to understand.

Good luck with this approach.

1438 mccainiac503  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 11:43:28am

re: #1432 Charles

I do not bash Bobby Jindal because of his religion. I won't support him as a GOP candidate because of the actions he's taken. The exorcism thing is a serious problem, politically.

As for his stance on creationism, if it were a private issue for him it wouldn't matter. I didn't like but didn't particularly care about Sarah Palin's creationist beliefs, because she made it clear she didn't want to force them on other people's children. But Jindal is the first US governor I'm aware of who has not only supported the teaching of creationist woo-woo in schools, he has signed into law a bill sponsored by the Discovery Institute.

These are concrete actions he's taken, and in my opinion they should disqualify him from being any party's "rising star."

Okay, so Jindal is disqualified because of creationism and participation in an exorcism. I don't agree with you, but I'll just say he's disqualified to move on to the larger point here.

Guiliani is disqualified because soc-cons find his views on abortion unacceptable. I happen to agree with Rudy that you can be personally opposed to abortion, do everything to encourage adoption and not fund abortion but not forcibly or coerce women into not having abortions by making them persecuted criminals. I don't believe persecution is an act of Catholic love. But for the sake of argument, let's just say Guiliani is also disqualified and off the table.

Who then would be acceptable to Republicans? Basically, the top 2 Catholic Republicans are being ruled out by people in their own party.

If not Jindal or Guiliani, then who?

The GOP has one Catholic in 150 years on the Presidential ticket, Goldwater's running mate, William Miller. The Dems have had several Catholics on their ticket, beginning back in 1928 with Al Smith.

Speaking of Al Smith, (I'll wrap up soon...):
In his speech "A Time for Choosing", given in support of Goldwater in 1964, Reagan references Al Smith:

"But as a former Democrat, I can tell you Norman Thomas isn't the only man who has drawn this parallel to socialism with the present administration, because back in 1936, Mr. Democrat himself, Al Smith, the great American, came before the American people and charged that the leadership of his Party was taking the Party of Jefferson, Jackson, and Cleveland down the road under the banners of Marx, Lenin, and Stalin. And he walked away from his Party, and he never returned til the day he died -- because to this day, the leadership of that Party has been taking that Party, that honorable Party, down the road in the image of the labor Socialist Party of England."

The Catholic vote is crucial and Catholics are the voice of reason. The GOP ignores the Catholic vote at their own peril and needs to convince Catholics to support Republicans if the GOP is to ever win the White House again.

So you tell me... if Jindal and Guiliani are unacceptable candidates, just who would you find acceptable? It's easy to say "not that guy", I want to know who is the person to lead us out of the wilderness and back into the light.

1439 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 11:58:53am

re: #1438 mccainiac503

I don't find Giuliani unacceptable at all. You need to talk to the social cons about that -- they're the ones who forced him out. (Well, the social cons, and his own inability to run an effective campaign.)

1440 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 12:13:40pm

P.S. And that's exactly the point of this post. Giuliani would have been a much better candidate than McCain. But he wasn't pure enough for the fanatics.

1441 mccainiac503  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 12:15:01pm

re: #1439 Charles

I don't find Giuliani unacceptable at all. You need to talk to the social cons about that -- they're the ones who forced him out. (Well, the social cons, and his own inability to run an effective campaign.)

My point exactly... Guiliani will never win the GOP nomination b/c the soc-cons would never let it happen and would walk out of the convention. Soc-cons will never, ever support Guiliani. I don't like it and wish it weren't so, but that's the reality of the situation.

Again, for argument's sake, I'll agree with you that Jindal is off the table. I like Jindal, you don't and I'll just leave it at that.

So who would be acceptable to everyone in the GOP? Or is no one acceptable to the entire party? I want a name of someone that would be acceptable to the whole party.

1442 mccainiac503  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 12:22:45pm

re: #1440 Charles

P.S. And that's exactly the point of this post. Giuliani would have been a much better candidate than McCain. But he wasn't pure enough for the fanatics.

I agree 1000%. I have always liked McCain and wish to hell he had beat out Bush in 2000 because I believe our country would be far better off for it. But Guiliani is a far better speaker and can articulate the values and vision of Republicans far better than McCain can.

But because of abortion, the soc-cons will never, ever, ever support Rudy.

Maybe we should have a whole thread just on that. :)

In the end, it pisses me off to no end that there is a litmus test for abortion that every candidate must pass, but no litmus test to prove that you're a real fiscal conservative and believe in self-governance, federalism, individual liberty, etc. You could believe in all the bedrock values of the GOP but if you don't tow the party line to a T on abortion, you are unelectable and persona non grata. Which is exactly why I will never, ever run for office. They're happy to take my vote and I'm happy to give it to them, but I be ostracized just as Rudy is for daring to have an opinion of my own on abortion.

1443 Yashmak  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 12:29:37pm
Yes, California preserved traditional marriage by a 52-48 margin but South Dakota refused to ban abortion by a 55-45 margin.

Let's hear a soc-con explain how South Dakota's abortion vote vindicates that Americans want social conservatism first and foremost.

- mccainiac503 #1430

Exactly. Trends show that America in general are relating to the social conservative agenda les and less. Given this trend, clinging to that agenda is going to be a millstone around the Republican party's neck.

Essentially, his attitude is "you can believe whatever you want, as long as you don't actually act on it. How dare you actually LIVE a Christian life!"

- Vanceone

That's not what ANYONE is saying. You can live a Christian life without trying to mandate it for everyone else through legislation. God asks us to choose. . .so it confuses me why the Christian coalition is so convinced it needs to take that choice away from Americans by trying to force its values down our throats through legislation.

The Catholic vote is crucial and Catholics are the voice of reason. The GOP ignores the Catholic vote at their own peril and needs to convince Catholics to support Republicans if the GOP is to ever win the White House again.

- mccainiac503

Perhaps, but that's a double edged sword. If the Catholic voters insist on jamming their beliefs down the throats of those Americans who do not share them, they run the risk of preventing the party they are most closely aligned with from winning elections. How does that serve them?

1444 Yashmak  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 12:34:55pm
You could believe in all the bedrock values of the GOP but if you don't tow the party line to a T on abortion, you are unelectable and persona non grata

- mccainiac503

Absolutely. This is especially galling because each of our last three Republican Presidents WERE pro-life. . .and exactly what did they do to move America in a pro-life direction? NOTHING. With that in mind, what does it really matter what a conservative candidate's position is on abortion? Easy answer. . .IT DOESN'T, and hasn't at any time in the last several Presidencies.

But every damn election we stupidly waste time and energy on this issue, as if it's going to change anything. It hasn't, and it won't. All it will do is alienate moderate voters that might otherwise have preferred the conservative candidate.

1445 Adina in Judea  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 1:54:21pm

re: #1439 Charles

Rudy was my first choice when the primaries were starting. I really thought he would be the one nominated since he seemed to have the best chance to beat Hillary (who was expected to be nominated back then.)

It didn't concern me that he's pro-choice because he seemed to be saying that he wasn't going to push this on anyone else. I respected him as a good person for America's defense.

I liked Fred Thompson even more but he seemed tired every time I saw him. He seems a lot less tired now, so maybe he was sick then. If he had worked hard on getting the nomination, I would have been thrilled.

Fred/Rudy (or Rudy/Fred) was my dream ticket way back when.

1446 MJBrutus  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 2:15:35pm

re: #1441 mccainiac503

My point exactly... Guiliani will never win the GOP nomination b/c the soc-cons would never let it happen and would walk out of the convention. Soc-cons will never, ever support Guiliani. I don't like it and wish it weren't so, but that's the reality of the situation.

Again, for argument's sake, I'll agree with you that Jindal is off the table. I like Jindal, you don't and I'll just leave it at that.

So who would be acceptable to everyone in the GOP? Or is no one acceptable to the entire party? I want a name of someone that would be acceptable to the whole party.

I think the party came to realize when it was too late, that Mitt Romney was as good as it was ever going to get for us. But then, I liked Mitt from the get go.

1447 phitoness  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 2:26:12pm

re: #1440 Charles

The fanatics? McCain, whose campaign was mysteriously resurrected (can I use that word?), didn't win the nomination because of the fanatics. Democrats registered as Republicans and picked the nominee. How could you possibly think that conservatives (fanatics) wanted McCain?

1448 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 2:44:00pm

re: #1447 phitoness

The fanatics? McCain, whose campaign was mysteriously resurrected (can I use that word?), didn't win the nomination because of the fanatics. Democrats registered as Republicans and picked the nominee. How could you possibly think that conservatives (fanatics) wanted McCain?

I didn't say that. I said that Rudy was rejected because the fanatics hated him.

McCain was the nominee because he was a good old boy Washington insider.

And I certainly never equated conservatives with fanatics, the way you're trying to picture it.

Why are some people so eager to misinterpret what I write, and attribute things to me that I neither said nor meant?

1449 mccainiac503  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 3:24:34pm

re: #1444 Yashmak

- mccainiac503

Absolutely. This is especially galling because each of our last three Republican Presidents WERE pro-life. . .and exactly what did they do to move America in a pro-life direction? NOTHING. With that in mind, what does it really matter what a conservative candidate's position is on abortion? Easy answer. . .IT DOESN'T, and hasn't at any time in the last several Presidencies.

But every damn election we stupidly waste time and energy on this issue, as if it's going to change anything. It hasn't, and it won't. All it will do is alienate moderate voters that might otherwise have preferred the conservative candidate.

To further your point (it's a good one), here's a transcript (emphasis added is mine) of an 1998 interview by Larry King of former President Gerald Ford:

KING: At the Republican convention in Houston [in 1992], you guested with us. You sat there and watched Pat Buchanan make a speak -- went on after it, and you turned to me and said, what's happening to my party?

What happened to your party?

FORD: We did not conduct ourselves really wanting to win. You cannot win a national election, neither Democrat or Republican, if your candidate and your philosophy is on the extreme right on the one hand, or extreme left on the other. The Democrats lost the presidential election with McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis, because they were to the left of center. The Republicans will not win if they pick a candidate who was identified as an extreme right candidate.

KING: Didn't they [the pro-lifers] take over your party, though?

FORD: They hadn't better, if they want to win. I think we've got to have, in the Republican Party, a big umbrella, so that people on the right, people on the left and people in the middle can work together. Now, that doesn't mean they agree on every issue, and abortion is one where there is significant difference. Betty and I are pro-choice, but we can work with people who are pro-life on the broader issues involving Republican philosophy.

KING: But when they say, Mr. President, that's a moral issue; it's not discussible and we have those -- we've had them on this program, might be called on the religious right who say, we're not going to be in your party, that's how big an issue this is?

FORD: Well, if that's the attitude they take and they have their own party, they won't win, and their impact in the political arena will be negligible.

KING: In other words, pragmatically, they'd elected Democratic?

FORD: That's right. No question about it. Now, I've been criticized by, I've forgotten who it was, on the basis that I don't have the proper family values. Well, Larry, let me be very frank with you. I think Betty and Gerry Ford have good family values.

KING: Why were they criticizing you?

FORD: Because we're pro-life -- I mean, pro-choice.

KING: Just for that reason, they...

FORD: Yes. They say, we don't have the right moral values. We don't understand the issue. Well, my point is: we've had 50 years of healthy, wonderful married life, raised four fine children. I think our family values are pretty good.

1450 Mr Secul  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 4:01:31pm

re: #1435 Vanceone

What's wrong with gay marriage, nudity, porn

Why do you lump marriage with nudity and porn? What are you thinking?

I imagine that some married people film themselves naked and distribute it as porn but I think that its uncommon.

1451 Tanker J.D.  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 7:21:01pm

All voter's priorities in descending order are:
1. National security
2. Economy
3. Culture

These issues somewhat track what psychologists call the "hierarchy of needs".

The debate is not which of these issues is ultimately most important, but on how much of a present threat exists to each. When a voter says that econ issues are most important, he really says that he perceives no pressing national security threats, but does perceive economic problems.

Conservatives usually see more security threats in the world than Libs. That's why Libs call us "fear mongers." They think we're making it up just to win votes, knowing that voters will decide on that issue first over any other.

If people feel safe and see the economy doing well, then they start thinking about culture. And it's true that there are generally more social conservative voters than social liberal voters. This year proved an exception, as will be explained.

Similarly, this hierarchy is why Libs always sound like the U.S. is some sort of Dickensian England. They want voters to worry about pocket book issues, instead of national security issues and cultural issues. (This is where conservatives get to call the libs "fear mongers"--that the libs are exaggerating economic plight to get votes.) Libs understand that economic issues trump culture, where they are usually weak (again, this year's a little bit of an exception). Libs don't want voters to focus on external security threats, where they are also weak.

In 2000, voters perceived no serious threats to Nos. 1 and 2. So Bush, the social conservative won. In 2004, it was about the invasion of Iraq. Whether they initially supported it, a majority of voters realized that premature withdrawal was not the solution. They also still perceived radical Islam as a threat, as 9/11 was only three years prior.

This year, another four years removed from 9/11, the majority of voters don't see major security threats, which is why rhetoric about Iran and Russia is ignored. Bin Laden hasn't been heard from in years, and most people think he's probably dead. Even Iraq is looking o.k. So voters turned to see if there were any threats to the next thing on the list, economy. The press was telling them it's bad. Home prices have gone down (12 of the 13 hardest hit states went for Obama). Wages are stagnating. Thus, they are voting on econ issues. The GOP failed to show voters how strong it is on econ. issues. Also, since the 90's, after Gingrich taught Clinton the virtues of the free market, voters have begun to trust Dems more on econ. issues than they did after Carter. Finally, Bush and DeLay abandoned GOP values on the economy with respect to entitlements and spending, focusing only on taxes.

This year, the GOP went with strong suits in No.1 (Mac) and No.3 (Palin), totally neglecting No. 2. Even though Obama was no master of No.2, he provided "hope" for "change", and a vague promise to return to the prosperous years that corresponded with the Clinton administration. Mac offered nothing on this.

Obama also offered voters a chance to "make history" in electing the first African-American (or is it "post racial") candidate. (How can it be both? Whatever, people are jazzed about the color of his skin.) In this regard he even beat the GOP in No. 3. Voters perceived that it was more culturally important to "get past racism" than to stop gay marriage or turn back abortion. Stopping gay marriage was still somewhat important as seen by the CA referendum, but not enough to trump No. 2 or the opportunity to help "make history."

The GOP needs to reject Bush's "compassionate conservativism"; get back to all three prongs. Strong on defense; fiscally responsible; traditional values. In that order!. Bush rejected fiscal responsiblility and the econ libertarians are upset; but we shouldn't reject social conservatives in revenge.

1452 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 7:36:58pm
1453 gulfloafer  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 8:51:42pm

re: #1440 Charles

Who wouldn't have been a better choice than McCain? The first words that came out of my mouth when he got the nod were; "Great another Bob Dole ... we're doomed"

1454 Zimriel  Thu, Nov 6, 2008 10:05:14pm

re: #1184 Dotcoman

I got a question for some of you Lizards; is this country a Democracy or a Republic?

Aliens' eye view :

This country is an oligarchy ruled by a permanent civil service and a political class in (usually) safely gerrymandered seats. It is informed by a landowning Calvinist-descended church masquerading as a collection of universities, largely through a shadow state media.

There is also an elected field-marshal of all its armies. It is a cause of great horror when this field-marshal does stuff which the landowning church doesn't like.

I'm defining "Democracy" as a government which reflects the will of the majority of the people. Usually the non-elected parts of the government (media, universities, civil service, 40% of the Congress) are checked by the elected parts (the rest of Congress, the President, the states). But now all of the government is united, by the will of the people. So, it is now "democratic".

1455 samsoncc  Fri, Nov 7, 2008 12:24:53am

re: #1432 Charles

At first I questioned why you would want to take Frum's second approach. After imagining a new concentration around the educated class, I've realized the problem with a Jindal. I think his desire to teach ID/C would be conveniently overlooked or downplayed in the short term, but would be disastrous in the long term. I think the idea of taking back the issue of education is ESSENTIAL, and that it's actually doable given four years. My biggest problem with Ayers was actually his description as an "educational reformer". And it's also why the recent post with the lady IN NC is infuriating.

What do you think of incorporating a national "campaign" against university/educational bias in the political arena? Films like Indoctrinate U and the the stories of the Sokal Hoax, etc (the list is truly endless if you pay attention) would be a great starting places, as far as "grass roots" efforts.

In my own experience college kids have no idea where to reach out politically except the hard-left; not that that is news. If such a concerted effort could be made, you could leave out the abortion and gay-"rights" issues, keeping the base intact, because those issues would surface naturally. The "religious right" would find an easy target and hopefully join in the fight as adjuncts. This would make the "hard-line" social issues secondary, but still firmly intact --again by clearly showing what they would be joining by changing sides. You're right though, Jindal would utterly destroy the credibility of any such effort.

There is a mountain of ideas out there on "taking back the universities," we wouldn't have to start from scratch. But that can't be done in four years. But a campaign to shift public opinion could be possible.

Here's to home-schooling anyone?

This quote from TNC sums up my view on Frum in general:
" 'The fact of change is the great fact of human life,' [Frum] says, pleading with conservatives to 'adapt' to change and retake the intellectual and political initiative... I believe change to be not the but a great fact of human life. An equally great fact is continuity, and it may well be that one 'adapts' more successfully to certain realities by resisting them than by capitulating to them."

1456 Salamantis  Fri, Nov 7, 2008 1:46:02am

re: #1434 Adina in Judea

My post #1056

The point is that the appeal to unique DNA fails in the face of identical siblings and clones. Besides the fact that a chemical definition of personhood (which is what the appeal to unique DNA) fails generally.

1457 mccainiac503  Fri, Nov 7, 2008 8:33:01am

I consolidated my points into one final post over at ModernConservative.com (where I'm a contributor). My last political post of the year as my focus from this day forward is letting Pope Benedict be my guiding light, not McCain or Obama. I've had all the political discourse I can handle for this year and need to focus on the life issues that really matter.

You can read the post here

Ciao!

1458 mccainiac503  Fri, Nov 7, 2008 8:41:41am

fyi.. I cross posted my ModernConservative piece to let the Freepers chime in. I was swiftly called a RINO and accused of being in bed with Communists. Predictably, they didn't even read anything I said because they are essentially calling Barry Goldwater a Communist. How rich...

Join the Freeper feeding frenzy by clicking here

I have to give the Lizards at LGF credit... you're much more open to reasoned and rational argument and debate... as a Catholic in training, I appreciate that kind of openness to reason.

Cheers...

1459 treeMack  Fri, Nov 7, 2008 3:12:26pm

Neither Bobby Jindal or Sarah Palin have ever said anything about punishing people for abortions and in regard to the creationism argument. Statement like this are a red herring. Palin expressed her view that creationism should be taught ALONG SIDE the evolution theory. You know, present both sides of an argument, foster discussion, that sort of thing. Additionally, when resisted, Palin backed off. I agree that morals should be taught not mandated. Understand that conservatism involves the whole spectrum. Limited government, moral standing, traditional family, etc. McCain lost because he was a poor candidate fostered upon us by the liberal media and the liberals voting for him in the New England primaries. Choosing Sarah Palin for VP was one of the few things McCain did right. Here are a few of the things McCain did wrong:

1) Voted for the Bank Bail out. - This alone cost him the election.
2) Failed to stand up to Whoppi and say "the 13th and 14th amendments took care of that you crazy #*#&".
3) Embraced the global warming agenda
4) Embraced the open borders crowd
5) Took too long to realize that we should pursue our own energy resources. Still doesn't want to use Alaska! What a Tool!
6) McCain-Feingold
7) McCain-Kennedy

That's all I can think of at the moment. McCain is a patriot but unfortunately, liberal light. The only thing he conservative on is the defense of our country. McCain has only himself to blame. Unfortunately, we will suffer for it.

1460 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 7, 2008 4:04:44pm

re: #1459 treeMack

Neither Bobby Jindal or Sarah Palin have ever said anything about punishing people for abortions and in regard to the creationism argument. Statement like this are a red herring. Palin expressed her view that creationism should be taught ALONG SIDE the evolution theory. You know, present both sides of an argument, foster discussion, that sort of thing. Additionally, when resisted, Palin backed off.

Your statement is true about Sarah Palin. She specifically said she would not push creationism into schools.

Jindal, on the other hand, not only is a believer in creationism, he's an activist. He's the only US governor who has actually signed a stealth creationist bill into law, promoted by the Discovery Institute, that will allow them to sneak their pseudo-scientific hooey into schools under the guise of "teaching the controversy."

1461 RedsoxNation  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 5:07:55am

Charles: I agree with you generally, but would like to add two points. First, Republicans have lost thier claim to being fiscal conservatives given thier inability to cut spending over the last eight years and thier creation of new entitlements. That has nothing to do with being a social conservative. Second, social conservatives originally argued that local and state governments should have more controll over thier social agenda without interference from the federal government, especially in the form of judicial activism. By arguing that local and state governments should address these social issues, Republicans from less socially conservative areas could function under the same principle that local and state governments should have more say on these issues. When the agenda moved more towards pushing that agenda on everyone, it began to undermine the Republicans in New England, California and cities. It's okay to be socially conservative, but you cannot be intolerable to those less so. Otherwise, we will be in the wilderness for a long time.

1462 TMF  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:32:16am

Heh

1463 meh130  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:45:25am

Just another attack on Sarah Palin. When Palin was first nominated, I found the CNBC interview on the web, as well as some other information about her. She struck me a the closest thing to Goldwater we have had in American politics since Reagan, and since Reagan is better known for fusing the Goldwater wing of the Republican party with the southern conservative Democrats, I found Palin more pure in her Goldwaterism. Unfortunately, the MSM decided to paint her in the classic "three-headed pentecostal rube" characature, and Palin's small government roots were lost in the noise.

Could you imagine being on the Titanic with men of Frum's character? Frum would be pulling babies out of the life raft to make room for himself.

1464 jon_berzerk  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 1:01:28pm

It was very hard for me to vote for McCain. If we continue to the left in policy
and candidate I will have to look else where for a candidate. It is as simple as that. Go towards the right.It works every time .

1465 nemesis443  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:57:15pm

The argument is all wrong. It wasn't social conservatism that killed the republicans in 2006 and this year, it was a total breakdown of the Republican Congress and the poor leadership of George Bush. For 6 years people begged Congress to curtail the wasteful spending and stop the corruption and they ignored us. And Bush made no effort to rein in the spending, no vetoes. He kept Rumsfeld in too long after it was obvious the war was being mismanaged. And disastrous leadership like that shown during Katrina didn't help. The fact is, most people are not one issue conservatives. Me, I'm a fiscal conservative, but I'm strongly pro 2nd amendment. I oppose most abortion on moral grounds, not religious. But I understand it is legal and only get upset when someone else expects me to pay for their poor judgment with my tax dollars. As for gay marriage, I felt that it would have become legal eventually, but through the legislative process, not the courts. Nobody likes having something shoved down their throats by arrogant judges and politicians. Basically, I mind my own business and expect others to do the same.

1466 mccainiac503  Mon, Nov 10, 2008 7:01:42am

re: #1460 Charles

Your statement is true about Sarah Palin. She specifically said she would not push creationism into schools.

Jindal, on the other hand, not only is a believer in creationism, he's an activist. He's the only US governor who has actually signed a stealth creationist bill into law, promoted by the Discovery Institute, that will allow them to sneak their pseudo-scientific hooey into schools under the guise of "teaching the controversy."

Sorry... I just can't let this go.

Whatever you think of Bobby's religious views... remember this, he's a Rhodes scholar whiz kid and a champion of reform and fiscal conservatism. He has a very solid record. He has been a topic of conversation in Baton Rouge ever since Gov. Foster picked him (I think he was 24) to run the Dept. of Health and Hospitals. Bobby gets things done.

Sarah Palin on the other hand, has only gotten as far as she has because she's:
a) female
b) strong social conservative (and strongly supported by them)
c) looks fabulous on TV (beauty queen)
d) regurgitates talking points well on TV (TV journalism background)

Those are the reasons McCain threw a Hail Mary and picked Palin when someone like Tim Pawlenty or even Kay Bailey Hutchinson would have been far more qualified than Palin.

In other words, Sarah is an empty suit. Do you think anybody would be able to credibly spread a story about Bobby Jindal not knowing what countries are in NAFTA or that they had to teach him that Africa is a continent, not a country and South Africa is a country within that continent?

If we run Sarah as the nominee in 2012, she would get destroyed... if she even makes it through the primaries. Keep her home in Alaska with the First Dude of Snowmobiling. Bobby is a far more competent governor and is a great interview and debater. He is Obama's kryptonite. Anytime someone tries to smear him as a religious kook, all he has to say is "I'm a Roman Catholic, one of the 67 million Catholics in America. Are they kooks too?" I guarantee you there won't be any YouTube videos floating around with inflammatory rhetoric at Bobby Jindal's church.

It's high time we put a highly intelligent Catholic on the ticket. Rudy wasn't good enough for the soc-cons so let's see if Bobby seals the deal. He will run circles around Barry O.


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