Christopher Hitchens on the UN’s Anti-Blasphemy Resolution
Here’s Christopher Hitchens on the Organization of the Islamic Conference’s latest attempts to use the United Nations to criminalize “blasphemy” (read: criticism of Islam) around the world.
Here’s Christopher Hitchens on the Organization of the Islamic Conference’s latest attempts to use the United Nations to criminalize “blasphemy” (read: criticism of Islam) around the world.
2 | monkeytime Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:01:18pm |
Uh oh - we are all going to get strongly worded letters!
3 | ArmyWife Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:01:45pm |
defamation of religion, huh? ALL religion? Methinks some religions are exempt.
6 | zombie Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:04:30pm |
Hitch is really trying to redeem himself after his Obama endorsement during the election. First the fisticuffs with the Syrian Nazis, now calling out the UN.
Keep this up, Hitch, and I'll take you off the detention list.
7 | Kosh's Shadow Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:04:41pm |
Now, if the UN would use the same standards against the Muslims as they would against everyone else, Wahabism would be banned.
But we know that they won't.
9 | HelloDare Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:04:53pm |
Criticizing stoning somebody to death is a hate crime. Makes sense to me./
11 | zombie Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:06:05pm |
I just wanna see some blue-helmetted thugs come to my home and try to shut me up.
Bring it on.
12 | livefreeor die Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:06:08pm |
So, if I criticize radical Islam, is the UN going to show up on my doorstep? Why do I think that they would be quick to do that but drag their feet if a genocide was going on?
13 | ciaospirit Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:06:14pm |
Let them adopt it so the US can finally pull out of that cesspool. BHO would pull out, right?
15 | Oh no...Sand People! Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:07:27pm |
I so wish Benjamin Franklin would have printed the Bill of Wrongs also. Some idiots have to have it spelled out.
16 | Cato the Elder Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:07:28pm |
Last piece I read about this claimed the resolution also enjoys the support of the Vatican. Can anyone tell me whether that's true or not?
17 | Vicious Babushka Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:07:28pm |
Defamation of Jews and Judaism and incitement to kill Jews will continue as usual.
18 | Opinionated Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:08:31pm |
I'm not criticizing Islam. I admit they do some things exceedingly well.
I believe no one is better then Islam in killing innocents.
I admit that Islam plans the most efficient bombings with the most dead and maimed.
I proclaim that Islam may not produce many Nobel prize winners but they do lead in producing suicide bombers.
Islam tops the charts in beheading.
No great scientific inventions, but they do invent new horrors every day.
21 | Oh no...Sand People! Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:09:25pm |
"The U.N. is getting a bit burdensome..."
Understatement of the century...
22 | zombie Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:10:49pm |
You see, we had this thing called "The Enlightenment," in which Western Civilization finally realized that laws against "blasphemy" were the cause of oppression, not the cure.
So we dropped those laws, and our civilization flourished with freedom and advancement like never before.
So, now, the last unenlightened medieval cavemen left on Earth want to bring back the very thing which held us in bondage for a thousand years -- and we're entertainging the notion of letting them have their way?!?!?!?
Over my dead body. Figuratively and literally.
24 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:11:20pm |
Let's be very clear what is at stake here and what we are dealing with.
There are two things that a theocracy can not withstand. They are criticism and satire.
There are two things that make a free Republic or Democracy immune from becomming a theocracy.
They are the right of freethinking citizens to openly criticize and satire religion.
In many ways, there is no stronger illustration that the Islamists are completely opposed to everything we stand for as Americans. There is no stronger example that they would tear down all of the progress we have made as a culture.
This is the flip side of the problem with the ID nuts. As Americans, they know that they have already lost the battle between Church and State. Thus they try to claim the legitimacy of science as a way to reinsinuate themselves into authority through the state.
Both want a state redefinition of the truth. Both of their "truths" put the state in the service of their coneption of G-d whether anyone else want to believe like them or not.
So let's be really clear. These people want the state to be able to tell you what to believe and what you can say in free and public discourse. They want you to be silent and they want the next generation to have never heard of a notion where the state granted the right to it's citizens to not challenge the theocratic line. They are absolutely the enemies of liberty.
25 | Kosh's Shadow Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:11:29pm |
re: #12 livefreeor die
So, if I criticize radical Islam, is the UN going to show up on my doorstep? Why do I think that they would be quick to do that but drag their feet if a genocide was going on?
What do you expect from the Ummah of Nations?
Or is that the Ummah of Nazis?
27 | capitalist piglet Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:11:57pm |
re: #16 Cato the Elder
Last piece I read about this claimed the resolution also enjoys the support of the Vatican. Can anyone tell me whether that's true or not?
What was your source?
29 | ronsfi Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:12:50pm |
Sometimes I have to blink my eyes and wonder, Is this really happening? This is just frightening.
30 | guest77 Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:12:58pm |
Of course, banning the defamation of religions UN style would not affect the Jews. Muslims still will be free to publish all their anti-semitic stories and articles, broadcast Jew hating shows on Al Jazerra, and say "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas."
Oh, I get it. They will replace "Jews" with "Zionists" and everything will be all right.
31 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:12:58pm |
32 | HelloDare Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:13:09pm |
re: #18 Opinionated
No great scientific inventions, but they do invent new horrors every day.
They invented the beheading knife. /
34 | Cato the Elder Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:14:55pm |
re: #27 capitalist piglet
What was your source?
I'm trying to recall - it's not coming to me offhand. Searching web now...
35 | Cognito Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:14:56pm |
re: #6 zombie
Hitch is really trying to redeem himself after his Obama endorsement during the election. First the fisticuffs with the Syrian Nazis, now calling out the UN.
Keep this up, Hitch, and I'll take you off the detention list.
Something tells me Hitchens doesn't care much for redemption...
36 | ciaospirit Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:15:07pm |
Dobbs: the UN has become burdensome.
Grossly understated.
40 | Cognito Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:16:55pm |
The people in the video keep saying "... if the UN has its way."
But -- wait -- no, that's not right, is it? This resolution has been proposed by the Faction of Crazy Nations (which is sizable) but hasn't been passed by any means. And which may yet be laughed out of existence?
Right?
No?
43 | JCM Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:18:32pm |
re: #40 Cognito
The people in the video keep saying "... if the UN has its way."
But -- wait -- no, that's not right, is it? This resolution has been proposed by the Faction of Crazy Nations (which is sizable) but hasn't been passed by any means. And which may yet be laughed out of existence?
Right?
No?
You have that much faith in the UN?
46 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:19:34pm |
re: #37 buzzsawmonkey
Hitchens, and Condell, alas, and perhaps even Dobbs have it wrong when they speak of this UN resolution as being antithetical to "human rights," and when they draw the line between "human rights" on the one hand, and "theocracy" on the other.
This is not a "theocracy" issue; it is an issue of whether a state supports liberty or does not. The states which do not support liberty, and safeguard that liberty with civil rights, may or may not be "theocratic"; they may or may not grant certain "human rights" to their populations. But their populations are not free, because the basic element of liberty which is free speech is not safeguarded.
It's not "theocracy" versus "human rights"; it's liberty under the rule of law against everything else.
That is a very well said point and I do not debate it. I would point out in this case though that the people who are pushing it are doing so for theocratic reasons.
47 | Cognito Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:19:58pm |
re: #43 JCM
You have that much faith in the UN?
Of course not. But incorrect is incorrect.
No point in having the discussion if we just make it up as we go... Right?
48 | jdubya Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:20:15pm |
I like how Lou Dodds' spine has been getting a bit stronger recently.
"How many of the countries are Democracies?"
Just remember, we are not a Democracy, the US is a republic, but I am not splitting hairs here. Dobbs will receive another check in the "getting better" box in my book.
This resolution, if passed, should be proof that the pedophilic, corrupt UN needs to be booted out of the US. Not a member of the Birch society, but I am getting sick of our future children's tax dollars being spent on these clowns.
That building would make a great seaside hotel.
49 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:20:18pm |
52 | callahan23 Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:20:39pm |
re: #26 debutaunt
57 nations - how odd.
It is the OIC (Organization of the Islamic Conference).
And then too many people are seeking to put blame on Jewish i.e. Israeli lobbies that influence major world events?!?
IT IS the Islamic (OIC) lobby that is doing disastrous deeds to humanity.
53 | Cognito Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:20:42pm |
A shame about the new 'Nirth Certifikit' thread.
This one is far more interesting.
54 | Killgore Trout Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:21:21pm |
This is why secularists make better voices to counter Islamization and defend free speech. Western religious leaders simply aren't equipped to defend free speech.
55 | jaunte Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:21:38pm |
Hitchens: "Totalitarianism defined; a rape and butchery of our Constitution."
56 | Gus Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:22:15pm |
re: #54 Killgore Trout
This is why secularists make better voices to counter Islamization and defend free speech. Western religious leaders simply aren't equipped to defend free speech.
Perhaps it's a conflict of interest?
57 | jaunte Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:23:08pm |
re: #54 Killgore Trout
They're too easily diverted down the 'mutual respect' byway.
58 | capitalist piglet Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:23:53pm |
re: #54 Killgore Trout
This is why secularists make better voices to counter Islamization and defend free speech. Western religious leaders simply aren't equipped to defend free speech.
Why? You say "this is why" - but why? What is handicapping Western religious leaders (and by this I assume you mean pastors, priests, and rabbis/rabbanim)?
59 | Dragonwolf Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:24:27pm |
re: #8 monkeytime
The UN is a tool of Islamic Extremist.
The UN is the tool of the run amok little kids of the political world who think that they can really make the big kids 'toe the line' if they through a big enough tantrum.
Trouble is, the big kids have been letting them do it for far too long and the current administration is far too liberal to put them in their place.
60 | Killgore Trout Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:25:05pm |
re: #56 Gus 802
Perhaps it's a conflict of interest?
Perhaps. Either way it's not a topic Western religious leaders are interested in. Just earlier this week.....
Catholic-Muslim commission calls for respect of human rights
At the conclusion of the meeting, participants agreed upon the following:
1. “Peace and security are much needed in our present world marked by many conflicts and a feeling of insecurity.
2. “No true and lasting peace can be achieved without justice and equality among persons and communities.
....
4. “A culture of peace should permeate all aspects of life: religious formation, education, interpersonal relations and the arts in their diverse forms. To this end, scholastic books should be revised in order not to contain material which may offend the religious sentiments of other believers, at times through the erroneous presentation of dogmas, morals or history of other religions.5. “The media have a major role and responsibility in the promotion of positive and respectful relations among the faithful of various religions.
....
8. “Mindful of the suffering endured by the peoples of the Middle East due to unresolved conflicts, the participants, in respect of the competence of political leaders, ask to make use, through dialogue, of the resources of international law to solve the problems at stake in truth and justice.”
61 | nyc redneck Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:26:22pm |
fck the u.n.
it is stunning how arrogant islamic countries are.
so convinced that they are destined to rule the world,
they have absolutely no shame in demanding that the rest of us must basically
roll out a red carpet and make it easy for them to take over.
while were at it, why not send them a formal invitation and prepare to celebrate their grand arrival as our lords and masters.
fcking bastards.
62 | Gus Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:27:52pm |
re: #60 Killgore Trout
Correct. Hitchen's said it best when he refers to the Vatican response to the Dutch cartoon incident in which they put the issue of blasphemy over free speech. Hence the conflict of interest due to the shared goals of a theocracy of many member of the clerical community.
64 | iLikeCandy Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:28:20pm |
Hitchens voted for Obama because he thought Palin was a theocrat. He needs to do a side-by-side comparison of the probable outcomes of a Palin presidency and an Obama presidency. (No need to remind me that this is a UN, not US initiative; the distinction is rapidly blurring.)
65 | Killgore Trout Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:28:56pm |
re: #58 capitalist piglet
What is handicapping Western religious leaders (and by this I assume you mean pastors, priests, and rabbis/rabbanim)?
It's becoming a common theme among Western Christians that secularization is the real enemy turning the West against religion. They tend to see atheists as as the real enemy, and it's an enemy they share with Islam.
66 | Cato the Elder Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:28:59pm |
re: #27 capitalist piglet
What was your source?
Seems as if I was misled. I could only find one dubious source, completely unattributed and refuted by a commenter on the same page.
Unless I'm missing something important, Benedict and the Vatican seem to be completely in the clear on this one.
It gives me great pleasure to see that.
67 | Blackacre Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:30:18pm |
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
68 | Gus Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:30:28pm |
re: #65 Killgore Trout
It's becoming a common theme among Western Christians that secularization is the real enemy turning the West against religion. They tend to see atheists as as the real enemy, and it's an enemy they share with Islam.
The enemy of my enemy. Not unlike the Neo-Nazis and the Jihadists.
69 | Jim in Virginia Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:31:11pm |
OT: DC environmental protest tomorrow
It's time to start figuring out how to shut down every coal-fired plant on the planet.
OK, bozo, how do we generate the power we need for our Macs and Ipods and plug in electric cars?
70 | jaunte Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:33:15pm |
re: #69 Jim in Virginia
That writer lives in Vermont. I wonder how he heats his living space.
71 | Henchman Ghazi-808 Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:33:50pm |
I"m having a Massive Sarcasm moment:
Will this mean Liberals can't talk trash about Christians and Mormons?
72 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:34:12pm |
re: #51 ploome hineni
defaming Jews is ok.....because is is THEOLOGY, and the Jews bashing is often an essential to religion
demonstrating the Jew hatred inherent in religion, results in MORE Jews bashing along with cries of phobia
Don't forget, it is our fault that we are bashed because we are the descendent's of apes and pigs. It is our fault that we make such good targets to blow up because we force them to strap bombs on themselves. It is our fault that they are so backwards because we have too many Nobel Prizes and we keep them out of the scientific prize ring.
It is our fault that they have to "resit" us because we want to live in our own homeland in peace.
It is our fault that they launch rockets at us because we built a racist apartheid wall to stop their suicide bombers.
It is our fault that they send suicide bombers because we are in addition to being Jews members of the western democratic tradition.
It is our fault that they need to destroy the democratic tradition, because our Elders of Zion actually run it.
Some of them believe that air pollution is our fault too. It depends on if it is the time of the week when they think the Holocaust happened (and was a good thing which was also our fault). And yes, I wrote that with great bitterness.
Most importantly, it is our fault, because we have a proud and successful tradition that has progressed from the Middle Ages and they know on some level that they themselves have achieved nothing. More importantly, on some level, they know that Sarah was right about Ishmael.
73 | Gus Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:35:39pm |
OT (sort of)
Speaking of blasphemy, found this Massachussettes Law:
CHAPTER 272. CRIMES AGAINST CHASTITY, MORALITY, DECENCY AND GOOD ORDER
Chapter 272: Section 36. Blasphemy
Section 36. Whoever wilfully blasphemes the holy name of God by denying, cursing or contumeliously reproaching God, his creation, government or final judging of the world, or by cursing or contumeliously reproaching Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost, or by cursing or contumeliously reproaching or exposing to contempt and ridicule, the holy word of God contained in the holy scriptures shall be punished by imprisonment in jail for not more than one year or by a fine of not more than three hundred dollars, and may also be bound to good behavior.
74 | Nevergiveup Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:35:44pm |
re: #71 BigPapa
I"m having a Massive Sarcasm moment:
Will this mean Liberals can't talk trash about Christians and Mormons?
Shirley you jest?
75 | jaunte Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:37:54pm |
Missionary work will be affected:
"The slope is so slippery because everything that purports to criticize Islam is considered 'blasphemy.' Anything that promotes another religious viewpoint, like Christianity, is considered 'blasphemy,'” he said. “It really becomes the ultimate weapon against free religious speech around the world."
[Link: www.christianpost.com...]
78 | zeebeach Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:42:22pm |
#65 "It's becoming a common theme among Western Christians that secularization is the real enemy turning the West against religion. They tend to see atheists as as the real enemy, and it's an enemy they share with Islam."
I'm not seeing that, and I'm a western Christian. Nor do I have any problem with atheists in general, let alone see them as an "enemy". How do you qualify/quantify your statement?
79 | jantjepietje Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:43:06pm |
Members of The United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC)
China
Russia
Saudi Arabia
Cuba
Indonesia
Pakistan
Egypt
Jordan
Qatar
Bahrain
Anything looks off here?
81 | nyc redneck Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:43:55pm |
re: #75 jaunte
Missionary work will be affected:
[Link: www.christianpost.com...]
i agree, anything can be an insult to islam.
taken to its logical conclusion we will all be forced to convert/submit or die.
this resolution will basically remove all road blocks so that islam can infest the world easier.
82 | Henchman Ghazi-808 Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:44:18pm |
re: #40 Cognito
Shall we wait until it's Doth Protested Too Much?
84 | Gus Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:44:44pm |
85 | capitalist piglet Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:44:44pm |
re: #65 Killgore Trout
It's becoming a common theme among Western Christians that secularization is the real enemy turning the West against religion. They tend to see atheists as as the real enemy, and it's an enemy they share with Islam.
Merely my personal observations, but: I think a lot of Christians feel like they're under attack by atheists who seem to want to drive Christianity underground, but otherwise don't give them much thought.
I also think the fact that the Christian community generally puts up with just about any offensive speech directed its way without rioting (there may be exceptions but none are coming to mind) is evidence that they don't share a common goal with Islam in regard to the imposition of retrictions on speech. We've seen no real public cries for restriction on speech from the Jewish community, either - a community that arguably tolerates some of the most offensive speech in the world today.
(I know you didn't cite the Jewish community - again, just offering an observation.)
It would seem to me that this movement toward forced restriction of anti-religious expression is coming primarily from Islam, and it's too broad a brush to suggest that it's being driven by the religious in general...or that Christians are somehow inclined toward this path, as well.
I'm open to seeing evidence that I'm wrong - and I acknowledge that perhaps there are nuts here and there who are/call themselves Christians - but it's not something I have personally observed as a movement.
Which is somewhat off the beaten path from what we were originally discussing, so I'll leave it there. : )
86 | Henchman Ghazi-808 Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:45:02pm |
re: #79 jantjepietje
Nothing to see here folks, just move along!
88 | jaunte Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:46:25pm |
re: #81 nyc redneck
This looks strictly like a 'protection of Islam' resolution.
89 | Nevergiveup Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:46:38pm |
90 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:47:50pm |
91 | Henchman Ghazi-808 Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:48:57pm |
re: #88 jaunte
No, no, no! It's about all religions! But Islam need protection because it's under attack by the Joooooooos and their Zionist Capitalist puppetmasters. Some religions need more 'protection' than others.
92 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:49:11pm |
95 | capitalist piglet Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:50:17pm |
re: #68 Gus 802
The enemy of my enemy. Not unlike the Neo-Nazis and the Jihadists.
I just have to say: I don't think it's fair to Christians to suggest some sort of alliance with Islam. I'm not sure where this is coming from. I feel no kinship whatsoever with anyone who seeks to silence criticism of religion...even my own.
I am a Christian, and sometimes it is actually painful to read LGF (and no, not because of Charles - because of the comments). I put on my thick skin, and I do it anyway...and I rarely say anything in defense of my faith. But (nothing personal - honestly), I have to draw the line at the suggestion that I would team up with the local mosque because someone has offended me.
96 | SpartacusDk Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:50:49pm |
Having read the Quran, I could easily pull hundreds of quotes from it, showing defamation of religion, i.e. any religion other than Islam. Don't muslims have any sense of logic or for that matter humour ?
97 | Gus Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:51:28pm |
re: #95 capitalist piglet
You're right. I should have modified that with some or a minority. The example of the Vatican is however cited by Hitchens who speaks in this video. Overall though that could be seen as a "European" response and not a Christian response.
98 | nyc redneck Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:51:39pm |
re: #96 SpartacusDk
Having read the Quran, I could easily pull hundreds of quotes from it, showing defamation of religion, i.e. any religion other than Islam. Don't muslims have any sense of logic or for that matter humour ?
no logic
and certainly no humor.
it is forbidden.
100 | jaunte Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:52:12pm |
A version dated Oct. 30 included four references to Muslims and four references to Islam. The revised version considered by the committee on Monday, dated Nov. 12, contains only two references to Muslims and one to Islam. Neither version cites Christianity or any other faith by name.In the surviving references, the text “expresses deep concern … that Islam is frequently and wrongly associated with human rights violations and terrorism.”[Link: www.cnsnews.com...]
I wonder why.
101 | Bradley F Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:52:27pm |
Islam is not merely a religion, it's a political system and it tolerates nothing, let alone criticism.
102 | FrogMarch Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:53:13pm |
I suspect with Obama's push toward World Government - he'd be all for this.
Next step - make it illegal to say anything against The One.
(Fairness Doctrine)
104 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:54:20pm |
re: #99 ploome hineni
Maybe I should have said, should leave a mark.
105 | Gus Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:54:54pm |
106 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:55:34pm |
107 | capitalist piglet Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:55:35pm |
re: #97 Gus 802
You're right. I should have modified that with some or a minority. The example of the Vatican is however cited by Hitchens who speaks in this video. Overall though that could be seen as a "European" response and not a Christian response.
Thank you, Gus. I suppose I should actually take the time to listen to Hitchens before launching some sort of debate. I personally don't follow the Vatican for anything, but I know some see it as the primary source of Christian leadership. This wouldn't be the first time I've disagreed with them, and it won't be the last.
108 | jaunte Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:55:42pm |
If this approach to "defamation of religion" were to become a crime under international law (under the impetus of the U.N. resolution), "nations would be able to seek extradition and trial abroad of persons who make statements critical or offensive to one or all faiths anywhere in the world."
Already, for example, as Reuters reported last June, Jordan prosecutor Hassan Abdullat subpoenaed "11 Danes for drawing and reprinting" cartoons that offend Islam. The Danes were charged - in Jordan - with "threatening the national peace." Under Jordanian law, Reuters reported, "reproducing images of the Prophet Muhammad inside - or even outside - the country is illegal under the Jordanian Justice Act."[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]
110 | Haverwilde Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:57:33pm |
re: #95 capitalist piglet
I just have to say: I don't think it's fair to Christians to suggest some sort of alliance with Islam. I'm not sure where this is coming from. I feel no kinship whatsoever with anyone who seeks to silence criticism of religion.
I had the misfortune to visit a University late last year. Their was an ongoing dialogue about Islam and Christianity and how badly George Bush misunderstands Islam....yada yada yada. The intellecutual religious elite, and their student organizations just lapping up all the anti-Bush, pro-Islam crap. In one conversation, I told my relative, "Remember this discussion, in 10 years, Bush will be remembered as the President who saw the looming danger of Islamic Extremism and began to respond. In my mind his major failing was stopping in Iraq."
111 | jantjepietje Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:57:50pm |
re: #85 capitalist piglet
I also think the fact that the Christian community generally puts up with just about any offensive speech directed its way without rioting (there may be exceptions but none are coming to mind) is evidence that they don't share a common goal with Islam in regard to the imposition of retrictions on speech.
In the Netherlands the growing Muslim community that is offended at everything serves more like a wake up call for the more fundamentalist Christians that like to follow their example. Not by violence but by pushing the offending is a crime thing to the limit.
112 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 3:57:58pm |
re: #109 ploome hineni
Sounds like he is willfully dense, thats very sad.
114 | capitalist piglet Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:00:18pm |
re: #111 jantjepietje
In the Netherlands the growing Muslim community that is offended at everything serves more like a wake up call for the more fundamentalist Christians that like to follow their example. Not by violence but by pushing the offending is a crime thing to the limit.
Thank you. I admit to ignorance regarding what Christians are doing in countries other than my own.
115 | FrogMarch Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:00:42pm |
Thank goodness someone at CNN is paying attention. The rest of the DNC media are too busy drooling over Obama.
116 | nyc redneck Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:01:29pm |
re: #108 jaunte
imagine the chilling effect this would have on freedom of speech.
a slip of the tongue could land you in a dungeon, in a 3rd world islamic crap hole country. and the penalty for your remark is getting your head chopped off.
117 | Gus Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:02:47pm |
re: #116 nyc redneck
imagine the chilling effect this would have on freedom of speech.
a slip of the tongue could land you in a dungeon, in a 3rd world islamic crap hole country. and the penalty for your remark is getting your head chopped off.
It sounds as if even talking about an incident in the 3rd person would be discouraged. The ultimate in big brother government.
118 | Gus Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:04:21pm |
So. Anyone know where I can find a Lutheran Church in Saudi Arabia?
120 | jaunte Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:05:45pm |
re: #116 nyc redneck
If a cartoon in Denmark can 'threaten the national peace' of Jordan, that's a warning for everyone on earth from Mo's people to hold their tongues.
I hope we have the will to get out of the UN.
122 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:07:00pm |
Having Russia and China on that comission is a way for them to play cold war with the US. Old tradtionis die hard.
For China, they are super sensitive about the fact that the world notices their less than savory practices. Being their allows them to deflect attention from themselves.
For Russia it is to curry favor with the Islamists and to try to counter the US in the Middle East in much the same chess game they tried to play in the '60s. Russia sees a strategic military and economic advantage from such an alliance. They foolishly believe that they can control the Islamists, but then again given the "gentle nature" of Russian rule, maybe they could if they decided to kill enough people. All the more ironic when they are on the human rights comission.
Cuba is there simply because pissing on America makes them happy for any number of historical reasons. Actually, that statement applies to all of them to a greater or lesser extent.
Israel is a fabulous proxy target. They can attack American interests in the region by attacking our ally. They draw attention form themselves and they each push their own political and economic agandas under a veneer of propaganda that hs been lended legitimacy from a UN stamp.
126 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:08:25pm |
and I really wish I could edit some of these things for typos or mental spoonerisms.... I meant being there in my last post :)
128 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:09:05pm |
re: #125 ploome hineni
:D
he is a loser
I was taken aback, unsure that that wasn't aimed at me, sorry for any confusion.
129 | Killgore Trout Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:09:35pm |
re: #85 capitalist piglet
I think a lot of Christians feel like they're under attack by atheists who seem to want to drive Christianity underground, but otherwise don't give them much thought.
I think that victim mentality is part of the problem. many Christians feel oppressed in the West even though America is about 90% Christian and Europe is 75-80% Christian. Christians are not an oppressed minority.
130 | nyc redneck Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:09:37pm |
re: #126 LudwigVanQuixote
and I really wish I could edit some of these things for typos or mental spoonerisms.... I meant being there in my last post :)
we know, we all do it.
132 | Gus Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:11:07pm |
re: #122 LudwigVanQuixote
Exactly. Russia and China will sign anything because they'll ignore it anyway. The Arab (and other Muslim countries) will sign onto it and ignore it in their own countries (which is what they do anyway) yet demand other countries to follow those guidelines as well as a policy of reverse assimilation.
133 | Sharmuta Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:11:18pm |
I really enjoyed Christopher, but I was surprised by Lou Dobbs! I just didn't think I'd ever see a cnn talking head calling for the UN to leave this country.
134 | notutopia Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:11:19pm |
re: #116 nyc redneck
imagine the chilling effect this would have on freedom of speech.
a slip of the tongue could land you in a dungeon, in a 3rd world islamic crap hole country. and the penalty for your remark is getting your head chopped off.
One more major reason to resist and fight for no sharia law in the US.
135 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:11:42pm |
re: #127 ploome hineni
I have given up on typos
/and spell check
Fair enough... I really do find that when I am getting into it, and I feel I have something clever to say, that the more furiously I type the more my writing skills approach those of a mildly brain damaged eight year old.
136 | jantjepietje Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:11:44pm |
re: #114 capitalist piglet
You can't keep track of everything :) and I suppose you don't really have a Muslim minority of any size in the states anyway so it would be hard to observe the same phenomenon of moderate* Muslims and fundamentalist Christians joining forces. The thing is the Netherlands is not all that liberal as is thought abroad (We have a party in parliament that supports Christian theocracy and was founded in 1918 in opposition to women being allowed to vote)
but most creepy Christians were sort of banned to the fringes of society and now because of the Muslim community they are trying to get back in
*they aren't really that moderate usually there seems to be a large discrepancy between a moderate Christian and a moderate Muslim
137 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:11:55pm |
139 | Achilles Tang Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:13:23pm |
140 | Drained Brain Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:13:25pm |
Makes the title of Mark Steyn's America Alone every more relevant.
141 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:14:00pm |
re: #131 ploome hineni
we haven;t met
howdoyodo..:)
Not formally, I see your posts from time to time.
And I do fine thanks for asking.
Hope all is well with you as well.
142 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:15:31pm |
re: #140 Drained Brain
Makes the title of Mark Steyn's America Alone every more relevant.
I have read that book twice, excellent reading.
144 | Achilles Tang Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:15:54pm |
re: #133 Sharmuta
I really enjoyed Christopher, but I was surprised by Lou Dobbs! I just didn't think I'd ever see a cnn talking head calling for the UN to leave this country.
I think he has said similar things before. Immigration, illegal, is an area he has pontificated more on than the big O.
There may be more closet conservatives around than one realizes. Even I used to be one.
145 | jantjepietje Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:16:03pm |
re: #129 Killgore Trout
That is only if you count very religious countries like Poland etc
The Netherlands, England, Germany, Scandinavia now way that Christians make up over 50%
146 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:16:04pm |
147 | Gus Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:16:37pm |
I wonder what the future holds. Would this mean anything that is blasphemous in nature and broadcast to member nations that signed up with this resolution could file charges under international law. Then perhaps issue an international warrant for the arrest of said perpetrator. This could apply to print, internet, radio and video mediums.
148 | Gus Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:17:15pm |
149 | godfrey Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:17:18pm |
So if the Koran and haditha are defamatory, imams can be prosecuted?
150 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:17:21pm |
re: #147 Gus 802
I wonder what the future holds. Would this mean anything that is blasphemous in nature and broadcast to member nations that signed up with this resolution could file charges under international law. Then perhaps issue an international warrant for the arrest of said perpetrator. This could apply to print, internet, radio and video mediums.
That is certainly a long term wet dream of the Islamists from this.
151 | Achilles Tang Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:18:01pm |
153 | godfrey Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:18:36pm |
A leftist professor I know calss Dobbs a "fascist."
154 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:20:09pm |
Getting serious again, and continuing the thought of my post about the obvious natuure of the politics at the UN, they have a chance of making it work because of no shortage if useful idiots in the West.
155 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:20:35pm |
156 | jaunte Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:21:23pm |
re: #153 godfrey
A leftist professor I know calss Dobbs a "fascist."
Torn from directly from the pages of the world socialist web:
[Link: www.wsws.org...]
157 | Achilles Tang Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:21:37pm |
re: #153 godfrey
A leftist professor I know calss Dobbs a "fascist."
People with left brains don't know the difference between a fascist and Hitler, and a few more things. If you are not dependent for grades on the poor prof, what's holding you back?
158 | Achilles Tang Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:22:21pm |
re: #155 LudwigVanQuixote
So that does not count as sexual relations?
Depends on how much you've been smoking.
159 | capitalist piglet Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:22:24pm |
re: #129 Killgore Trout
I think that victim mentality is part of the problem. many Christians feel oppressed in the West even though America is about 90% Christian and Europe is 75-80% Christian. Christians are not an oppressed minority.
No one said Christians were an oppressed minority, but there is no question they are subjected to their share of bigotry. People who aren't Christians probably don't see it, I realize.
160 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:22:35pm |
Charles is letting ruffy take his lumps in the nerther thread before sicking Stinky on him.
163 | nyc redneck Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:24:16pm |
re: #149 godfrey
So if the Koran and haditha are defamatory, imams can be prosecuted?
no, and you're on thin ice yourself to even ask that question.
it is defamatory to even suggest such an idea.
it is hurtful to moslems for you to make such a veiled negative insinuation
abt islam.
and trying to be clever in using "if" in your question won't deter prosecution.
164 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:25:49pm |
165 | Morganfrost Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:26:05pm |
US out of UN; UN out of US. I have enough trouble with the bureaucrats we do elect here-- sure as God made little green apples, we don't need a bunch of unelected hacks from uncivilized countries telling us which bogus religions we can't mock.
166 | Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:26:54pm |
re: #158 Naso Tang
Depends on how much you've been smoking.
Do cigars count?
//// once again ducks for cover....
168 | notutopia Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:28:51pm |
re: #121 Naso Tang
Why do I see this on CNN and not on Fox?
Fox covered this story October 3, 2008
U.N. Anti-Blasphemy Resolution Curtails Free Speech, Critics Say
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
169 | Killgore Trout Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:31:51pm |
re: #145 jantjepietje
Check the CIA Factbook
UK - 72%
Spain 94%
France 90%
Netherlands - 50%
Germany 70%
...etc
170 | UberInfidel67 Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:32:23pm |
re: #40 Cognito You really shouldn't have been dinged down for that comment. Several arab nations that thought up this brilliant piece of work, actually changed their stance when they thought it would backfire on them. They realized this same issue could hold them hostage too. In other words, they knew it might shut them up about the eeeeevil Joooos. BUT, and it's a big one, obviously they have reworked it with some kind of loophole and are bringing it up again. I will have to refer to my sources on this and see why they are changing their minds. Hmmmmm curious.....
171 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:33:05pm |
re: #167 Iron Fist
absolutely, its Charles home, he makes the rules in it, I do the same in my home, its fine to disagree to a point, but slapping a man in his own home is as you said, not very bright.
And nice to meat you Mr. Iron Fist.
172 | Achilles Tang Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:33:39pm |
re: #166 LudwigVanQuixote
Do cigars count?
//// once again ducks for cover....
What do you think I was talking about?
(I can try to be less obtuse in the future if you wish, but you'll have to read more)
173 | Achilles Tang Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:36:35pm |
re: #168 notutopia
Fox covered this story October 3, 2008
U.N. Anti-Blasphemy Resolution Curtails Free Speech, Critics Say
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
What? Charles is 5 months late on this? WTF?
(I did know about it too, really)
174 | aboo-Hoo-Hoo Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:37:34pm |
Change? Ok, how about Obummer dumping the UN?
Say, cheese.
175 | Achilles Tang Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:37:47pm |
Damn, I hate it whenj I seem like the last person on the planet. Where the hell is everyone? I'm going to watch Lord of The Rings for a while.
176 | Haverwilde Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:41:16pm |
re: #127 ploome hineni
I have given up on typos
/and spell check
Eye wish too make a pubic anounsment. Eye to half gibbon up on spell chezhing!
177 | DEZes Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:41:47pm |
re: #175 Naso Tang
Damn, I hate it whenj I seem like the last person on the planet. Where the hell is everyone? I'm going to watch Lord of The Rings for a while.
Hobbits? more Hobbits!
178 | jantjepietje Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:49:07pm |
re: #169 Killgore Trout
Yeah but do you actually live there? In Germany it is almost impossible to get yourself signed out as a Christian in all the official registry stuff, in the Netherlands you are automatically signed in the church of your parents nobody does the effort of getting themselves signed out etc All opinion polls held show christians in the minority
France is a different story everyone is catholic and everyone enters church 3 times with birth, marriage and death
My grandpa + some uncles live there I have never heard the word god drop in any discussion about anything ever churches are for the art not for worship
Actually the first time I saw faith being alive was last summer when I visited America
179 | Lib Wingnut Sun, Mar 1, 2009 4:52:34pm |
I heart Christopher Hitchens. GIVE 'EM HELL, HITCH!
180 | A Kiwi Infidel Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:00:21pm |
So, let me get this right, if Ahmed says "Jews are descended from apes and pigs" it will be ok, but if I say "Ahmed said jews are descended from apes and pigs" I get hit with the blasphemy stick. Great, just effing great.
181 | A Kiwi Infidel Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:01:07pm |
re: #176 Haverwilde
Eye wish too make a pubic anounsment. Eye to half gibbon up on spell chezhing!
You're getting there, keep up the good work.
182 | mich-again Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:02:08pm |
For context, here is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that Hitchens mentioned in the interview.. Before the UN can enact the anti-blasphemy law, they'll first need to ditch whole sections from this 60 year old document.
Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people...Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
184 | A Kiwi Infidel Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:03:16pm |
I missed the announcers name. I like him. I will buy him a beer. He said if the UN passes this resolution has there been any suggestion that the US bulldoze the building and tell them to go find another place they can call home.
185 | A Kiwi Infidel Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:03:58pm |
re: #183 buzzsawmonkey
And don't even think about suggesting anything about Ahmed's family connections.
Damn thoughts, OUT damned blasphemous thoughts.
188 | A Kiwi Infidel Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:06:04pm |
re: #186 buzzsawmonkey
You don't understand; the anti-blasphemy law is being sold as consistent with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, because it protects people exercising their freedom of religion without fear of contradiction.
As consistent as having THE TRUTH about islam being declared blasphemy if spoken by anyone other than a muslim!
189 | mich-again Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:08:30pm |
re: #183 buzzsawmonkey
And don't even think about suggesting anything about Ahmed's family connections.
It would probably be considered blasphemous to sit in a chair and read aloud passages from the Koran for the camera. You would need to have an "expert" from the Mosque sit next to you to explain the passages to the infidels so they wouldn't get the impression that the words mean exactly what the words say.
190 | Achilles Tang Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:08:46pm |
191 | A Kiwi Infidel Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:09:27pm |
The way to defend yourself against any charge of "blasphemy" is relatively simple. Blasphemy is not derision. Blasphemy is actually the attribution of any work of God to any other thing, person or false god. Hit 'em with that and you pull the rug right out from under their kaftan.
192 | mich-again Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:11:46pm |
re: #186 buzzsawmonkey
You don't understand; the anti-blasphemy law is being sold as consistent with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, because it protects people exercising their freedom of religion without fear of contradiction.
Even if they worship the Pancake Bunny?
193 | Achilles Tang Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:14:03pm |
re: #189 mich-again
It would probably be considered blasphemous to sit in a chair and read aloud passages from the Koran for the camera. You would need to have an "expert" from the Mosque sit next to you to explain the passages to the infidels so they wouldn't get the impression that the words mean exactly what the words say.
.........while reading in an form of Arabic open to no interpretation, as Georgia Purdom PhD would say; which BTW prompts me to ask why that video, with polite handshake and all, is no longer available?
Somebody knows something I don't know........
195 | Achilles Tang Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:24:50pm |
re: #194 ploome hineni
....turning the screws
NObama=Mordor
These kinds of statements one hears all the time in many different contexts.
What do they do, deliver the money in electronically marked bills and then trace them through the buyer and the suppliers and verify the receipts by satellite?
How the hell can anyone even make such a dumb ass condition on any donation of money? The same assholes do the same thing all the time when they give money to the PLO for reconstruction (aka weapons).
Come to think of it, they do the same thing in Florida when they pretend lottery money goes to education.
Obviously education doesn't filter down.
196 | cartoonboy Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:30:06pm |
Today: anti-blasphemy law.
Tomorrow: large factory building for cleaning unbelievers (per se insulters of Islam)
with large chimney on top. Sign on front door: This way to showers.
197 | mattm Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:33:36pm |
Two points:
1. I have heard Hitches speak. Excellent! He went over his allotted time to the last possible minute to answer student questions. Also ticked off the libs in the audience when he would take their anti-Iraq whines at face value and asked for details.
2. We need to pull out out the UN and send them packing to a island. They are not needed here.
198 | Mich-again Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:34:01pm |
What if scientific discoveries blow holes in religious teaching? Can a Young Earth Creationist make the claim that teaching evolution is blasphemous so it should be banned.
199 | Ayeless in Ghazi Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:36:17pm |
This shit cannot be allowed to stand. No fucking way.
200 | Achilles Tang Sun, Mar 1, 2009 5:40:02pm |
202 | Mad Mullah Sun, Mar 1, 2009 6:29:50pm |
Bulldoze the UN building in New York and kick that fascist, totalitarian, terrorist supporting, dictator loving, and anti-civilization organization to the curb. What a steaming pile of rotten garbage that the UN has turned into.
The US and other democratic countries should form a new group of united, civilized nations. No totalitarian Islamic hellhole countries allowed.
203 | Dustyvet Sun, Mar 1, 2009 6:31:40pm |
204 | J.S. Sun, Mar 1, 2009 6:59:39pm |
re: #173 Naso Tang
What? Charles is 5 months late on this?
No. (I believe I posted on this as an "off topic" a couple of days ago.) Read carefully -- back in October 2008 (when Fox News picked up the story) it was about the anti-blasphemy law being non-binding. One more time, it meant the proposal was not "binding" on any nation -- that is, a member state nation could (if it so chose) put into legal effect an anti-blasphemy law. Ok? That was back in Oct. of last year. Now, however, they General Assembly has upped the ante. Now, they want to make the anti-blasphemy law binding. One more time -- that's binding on member states. And the vote for making the anti-blasphemy law a mandatory, binding resolution will occur in March, 2009. Ok?
205 | Mauser Sun, Mar 1, 2009 8:19:53pm |
I have to praise Lou Dobbs for his attitude here. And it's really something for me to praise a CNN anchor.
Although I wonder if his opinion about the UN's attempts to abrogate our constitution extends to the UN Commission on the Trafficking of Small Arms that wants to make the US ban guns?
206 | yesandno Sun, Mar 1, 2009 8:36:33pm |
re: #195 Naso Tang
These kinds of statements one hears all the time in many different contexts.
What do they do, deliver the money in electronically marked bills and then trace them through the buyer and the suppliers and verify the receipts by satellite?
How the hell can anyone even make such a dumb ass condition on any donation of money? The same assholes do the same thing all the time when they give money to the PLO for reconstruction (aka weapons).
Come to think of it, they do the same thing in Florida when they pretend lottery money goes to education.
Obviously education doesn't filter down.
So, one wonders what "limitations" will be place on the 800+ millions that the 0 wants to give to Gaza............
/who am I kidding? No limitations at all...and probably more if they need it.
207 | TheAntichrist Sun, Mar 1, 2009 8:54:10pm |
re: #205 Mauser
Although I wonder if his opinion about the UN's attempts to abrogate our constitution extends to the UN Commission on the Trafficking of Small Arms that wants to make the US ban guns?
That's not what that declaration is about. "Small arms" in the military sense includes light machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades, mortars, basically anything that can be carried and fired by one soldier. It's not about banning handguns or rifles in the US.
209 | peppermintboy Mon, Mar 2, 2009 1:07:43am |
how hard would it be to relocate the UN in Cuba in one year?... i mean the buildings are not too old and it's near the beach..great security and no asbestos...
210 | Zimriel Mon, Mar 2, 2009 8:22:20am |
re: #198 Mich-again
What if scientific discoveries blow holes in religious teaching? Can a Young Earth Creationist make the claim that teaching evolution is blasphemous so it should be banned.
Or textual discoveries, if they show that some of the suras might have been forged. Yehuda Nevo's "Crossroads to Islam" pushed at least sura 48 out of the canon. I guess that makes it blasphemy?
211 | Perplexed Mon, Mar 2, 2009 11:17:15am |
re: #183 buzzsawmonkey
And don't even think about suggesting anything about Ahmed's family connections.
Ah, the same Ahmed whose family tree is better described as being a 2 x 4 x 96? Ahmed, sorry but I don't buy into your belief system call islam. I could point you to some so called blasphemy regarding islam but suggest that you learn to use google to find it your self.